Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.
DH suggested I put this to you lot. What do you think?(423 Posts)
I'm going to try to keep this as neutral as possible, as it seems DH and I both completely believe we're in the right, despite our opposing views. Also going to try not to drip feed.
We've been together two years, married just over a year. We both have DDs from previous relationships. Mine (12) lives with us and goes to see her dad overnight at the weekend; his (13) stays two nights a week. My DD has some SEN, and coupled with the hormonal chaos of being 12, can be quite hard work. I also work 25 hours a week in a job that I love, but that can also be stressful and a bit overwhelming (social work).
A couple of months ago, DH told me that if I won't dress up for sex - ie. stockings, suspenders, thong, basque, whatever - he can't see any point in our relationship continuing. I was absolutely flabberghasted. It was like being kicked in the head. He did apologise, and we patched things up a bit, but he keeps coming back to the same thing every time we have words. He says that it would make him feel wanted and appreciated, that he is constantly giving to me, and that I give nothing back.
Thing is, I DO want and appreciate him. I love him. I'm so glad we found each other, at this relatively late stage in life (I'm 40, he's 50). But I find the weekdays hard, when DD is playing up and I'm exhausted from work and the constant bloody grind of housework and organising everything. As consequence, sex tends to happen at the weekends. I'd say we probably have sex a couple of times at the weekend, and sometimes, but not always, once during the week.
The funny thing is, that at the weekends when I'm relaxed and can focus on us rather than everybody else, I do dress up for him, and am happy to do so. I really enjoy it, and love the effect it has on him. This morning, during yet another argument about this, I reminded him of this, but he said it doesn't count because I'm only doing it under duress. I'm not doing it under duress, but it seems I can't win. He is insistant that I should - on say, a Tuesday evening, when I've been at work, then come home and have been running around doing domestic chores and coping with / helping / monitoring / disciplining DD til 9.30pm, I should pop on some saucy underwear and adopt the sex kitten persona. But I don't want anyone to make anymore demands on mme. It's all I can do to crawl into bed and read for half an hour.
In the interests of balance, I should add that DH has more money than me and props me up a bit financially, which I'm incredibly grateful for and regularly tell him so. He does most of the washing up, hoovers the house once a week, cleans the bathrooms, does any gardening, and helps me with DD a lot. I have quite high standards domestically (but not ridiculous - I only clean once a week and change beds every 7 - 10 days), and am very tidy. Being tidy helps me feel on top of things, and I make no apology for it. DH says that he likes my standards, but doesn't really help to maintain them. I feel that I tidy up after him a lot.
An example: He eats a lot of biscuits. I have asked him to use a plate for these, as otherwise I have to clear up his crumbs. He refuses; thinks I'm being ridiculous. I got a telling off a couple of weeks ago for asking his DD to eat off a plate too. I've tried to explain to him that this little thing could actually help with the sex thing - I wouldn't feel so resentful having to clear up after him all the time. But it is just dismissed. He actually said to me this morning (and I quote) " we should have high standards domestically, and high standards in the bedroom"
Your goign to tell me to LTB aren't you?
He sounds like an arse!
Yep, cos he isn't going to change. He might,possibly start using a plate, but you can't change what's in his mind or the way he sees women
You might find my current thread interesting:
make him dress up as a butler and insist that the only way you can feel sexy is by lying on a sofa with a glass of something nice, watching him hoover and dust and polish..... Then and only then can you get in the mood...
He's an arse.
He sounds really immature.
Not the requesting dress ups thing, I mean, whatever floats your boat.....but the pouting and threats of ending the relationship when you don't do it midweek. It's kind of laughable really, if it wasn't so sad.
So he moans at you for not dressing up, then when you dress up he moans that you're only doing it because he wanted you to..... WTF? You can't win this one.
My DP likes me to dress up, I can't really be arsed with it so only do it about once a year. He accepts that because he's not an entitled knob!
He's a dick. No real advice. LTB?
It really doesn't sound like a relationship you want to take much further. He demands you dress up, makes a fuss when you don't and somehow because he props you up financially, there's a quid pro quo that you do as you're told? I'd tell him to take his 'high standards in the bedroom' elsewhere...
If you do the housework, you are more than within your rights to ask people to use plates. He should not be 'telling you off' for treating his DD as you do your own.
I would personally be hurt if my DH insisted I dressed and acted as though I were in a soft porn film, but you say you enjoy the effect it has on him, so you are doing it for both of you. To do it when only he wants it is different.
The bit where you say he brings more money in makes me uncomfortable... this should have no bearing whatsoever on what you do in the bedroom unless you are on the game.
Tell him to knob off and if he brings it up again you won't dress up ever again for him.
Tell him to effing well grow up FFS! He's lucky he gets sex as much as he does! Dressing up is for toddlers - which he sounds like he is!
I hope your husband does read these replies
He is a selfish fucker. Quite honestly, he is at the very least being sexually selfish, at worst abusive. Putting pressure on someone like that is the least sexy thing you can do to someone. Who the hell does he think he is?
If my husband did this to me I would seriously question the type of person he is
This is addressed at the OP's DH. Stop watching porn.... it's ruining your relationship with your DW.
You sound like you have a quite active sex life and when you are relaxed at the weekend you enjoy the mutual fantasy. However your OH doesn't seem to understand that a huge amount of getting in the mood for many women is in the mind. If he did understand this, he would realise that a simple thing (like using a plate) is actually fore-foreplay iyswim.
Get a grip OP's OH (as you will be reading this I assume) and stop being so selfish.
I never answer questions in relationships but to me it seems like he likes to objectify women. He is basically saying he only gets off properly if you are dressed like that.
Don't even need to say that this is probably down to watching too much porn, so that is the only level now that he can get off if you dress in such a way. (I see nothing wrong with watching porn in moderation btw).
Also using it as a threat to you that if you don't then the relationship will end? Controlling and emotional blackmail much? Tell him to fuck off. He can then go and have a relationship with his hand and his perfect girls all dressed up on the screen.
He thinks that you owe him. He should of bought a nice little Thai bride, she might have been more grateful.
Eh....as he is insisting you dress up mid-week and you don't want to / are too tired (understandably!), isn't that also "under duress" and therefore also "doesn't count"?!?!?!?
I agree with rollon tbh!
Surely he could a) use a plate b) be a bit more tidy both of which would indeed help you feel less tired during the week and c) look forward to the weekends when you do want to dress up so he'd have a more happy and relaxed partner?? He's being pretty unreasonable from what you've said.
DH - be careful what you ask for, as you might not like the answer!!
My flabber is gasted too.
You have said you do dress up for sex some of the time imo that is perfectly fair and reasonable. Are his needs/wants the only ones that count?
If the roles were reversed would he dress up for you every time you wanted sex?
The biscuit/housework thing is a totally separate issue.
How are you supposed to feel sexy dressing up for somebody who has told you that unless you do it, he doesn't want a relationship?? Not much of a turn on for you is it?!
Lol twitterqueen that's excellent advice!!
It sounds like you are in some kind of tit-for-tat vicious cycle. He won't use a plate when he eats biscuits, you won't dress up for him...
I think you need to think about the foundation of your relationship and both let go a bit and lower your standards.
You accept crumbs on the sofa, he accepts sex without the dressing up
and I am trying very hard here not to be judgemental
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
God he sounds unbearable I would walk He is calling all the shots.
My first reaction to him was fuck right off.
Who the hell does he think he is?
'he said it doesn't count because I'm only doing it under duress. He is insistent that I should, on say, a Tuesday evening...'
And he can't spot the problem with this logic? It's never occurred to him that you are under duress because, ermm, he is putting you under duress?
Divorce him for being an illogical twit.
He asked you to post this so hopefully he is going to read the answers.
If you want to dress up, fine. Him earning more than you do certainly doesn't give him the right to demand it.
I do agree with him that I don't see a future in your relationship but only because he's an arse.
Tidy up. Be grateful. Behave.
Exactly!! My dh also likes it when I dress up in certain fantasy outfits. I have done it a handful of times (over a three year period), and although he loves it when I do, he would NEVER harass me to when I don't!
He would also NEVER tell me that my high standards in the house should be reflected in the bedroom, because he knows if he did, he would be dependent on his hand for all bedroom antics to come (and without a wife!!!).
However he isn't a selfish and misogynistic arse, so that thought has probably never even crossed his mind!
This man has no respect for you.
I'm curious to why he wanted you to post on here.. what kind of answers was he expecting?
Your H is a giant arse. That is all.
I'm sorry, I think you know what I'm going to say.
And yes, you should
I agree on the porn thing - what kind of man can only find his partner sexy if they are wearing sexy undies?
He says that it would make him feel wanted and appreciated, that he is constantly giving to me, and that I give nothing back.
Well as long as HE is feeling wanted and appreciated that's OK!! Are YOU feeling wanted and appreciated OP? Doesn't sound like it, but that isn't important to him. As long as HE's OK, your wants and needs are secondary.
And you are ment to be grateful to your H for earning more money than you. Sounds like he thinks you owe him sex for his financial input to your lives. Nice.
He sounds like a rubbish H and it must be very demoralising to live with someone who feels like this about you.
Come on Antis H. Come out of hiding and talk to us.
Yeah like some sort of prostitute.. He pays a chunk of money and therefore he's owed or something?
A couple of months ago, DH told me that if I won't dress up for sex - ie. stockings, suspenders, thong, basque, whatever - he can't see any point in our relationship continuing
He can say that to a prostitute but he can't say it to his wife. I know he did say it but he shouldn't. The husband/wife relationship isn't like paid-for sex, it isn't all his way.
He sounds unpleasant. He also sounds as if he's getting support for his sense of sexual 'entitlement' from somewhere - imagination? porn? use of prostitutes? I don't like the sound of him at all and I'd want rid.
If you want to stay with him and he wants dressing up dates, he needs to make sure your daily and weekly routines leave you enough time and money to do the self-care things that boost your confidence and make you want to dress up. He needs to arrange childcare and take you away, not for rushed weekends, but for a week at a time and not expect the fun to start until you've had three days proper rest, during which time he waits upon you and treats you like a princess and doesn't try a thing, never mind making demands.
"I'm curious to why he wanted you to post on here"
Good point. I think it's a measure of the man's complete disconnect with real women that he thought posting on a forum mostly populated by women would vindicate his views. If he does read any of the responses I expect they'll be dismissed as the ravings of hysterical man-haters and treated with as much contempt as he shows the OP.
God how depressing. I actually feel a bit ill.
common interests? Enjoying each other's company outside the bedroom as well as in it? Making each other happy? Supporting each other?
not seeing it..
1. Yes, we are all going to say LTB.
2. Next time, suss someone out for more than 12 months before marrying them. It's a great way to weed out the utter steaming pricks.
High standards in the bedroom means that each person is sensitive to the needs and moods of the other and wouldn't enjoy something that the other didn't. It doesn't mean you putting on a good enough performance for him.
If you're tired in the week he should be wanting to give you a lovely relaxing massage and letting things develop naturally from there.
I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding why any man would suggest putting this on mumsnet. It's odd, very odd.
The answers you are getting are, not only correct, they are entirely predictable.
The timeline of meeting and marrying within 12 months could be significant. Any sense of being bounced into it OP? Were you dazzled by the big bucks and offers of security? 'Marry in haste... etc'
I'm laughing and crying at these replies in equal measure
You're right: he was an avid user of porn before we got together; not so much now (I think?)
When he suggested I start this thead , I told him you'd all tell me to LTB and he was genuinely surprised
He sees no problem with his behaviour, and probably still won't after reading this
I've deliberately not read everyone else answer, my thoughts are you seem to suggest he is expecting it as he contributes more money to the household? Also why does he think you don't like it when you do it at weekends?
So where do you go from here OP? If he sees no problem with his behaviour, that rather lets out counselling as an option.
I bet before he married you he used prostitutes and that is essentially what he is still paying for now.
I mean *that is what he thinks he is still paying for now
You're right: he was an avid user of porn before we got together; not so much now (I think?)
So you think he changed his porn habit completely after you married? Really?
I was going to say the same thing. Total mistake to marry after 12 months imo.
You know what you need to do ... (and it's ltb in case you don't)
He is being massively unfair and very unsexy. Dictating when you must do something for his satisfaction??!! Really?? Is this just another service you are expected to provide or a loving relationship between equals?
He'll say that mnetters are man hating harpies I'll bet.
Stop watching porn.... it's ruining your relationship with your DW
^^^ THIS.. WITH BELLS ON ^^^
I don't really think you have many choices.. put up and shut up which will end up you properly miserable.. be assertive and tell him where to get off or the doors over there or kick his arse out.
He doesn't sound like a very nice person.. is he besides this?
I think he wants a prostitute. Someone to fulfill his sexual desires, appear willing, unphased by daily life.
I do think that having sex is an important part of being in a marriage but it is just one cog in the machine. He needs to contribute more than financially.
Does he care about what you like in a sexual relationship? Would he get decked out in his finest David Beckham tiny white pants if requested?
Does he use his own initiative to contribute to the household or just 'help you out' with the housework?
He is simply being selfish.
he was an avid user of porn
Of course he was and he still is.
He sound feckin' horrible TBF.
I left my first husband for pestering me for sex in the way he wanted sex all the time when I already thought we had quite a lot of sex ! (Like you mostly weekends etc). I just got utterly fed up of him going on at me and in the end I became resentful about it all. One of the nicest things when I first left him was to be able to get in pj's after a long day and know I wouldn't have any of the passive aggressive shit to deal with because someone wanted to have sex. I really can't be bothered to deal with that.
Many years on I am remarried and my dh never puts any pressure on me to have sex at all. We still have a good sex life (2-3 times a week mostly, and we have a toddler as well as my older child) but I have the lower sex drive and he still just goes along happily.
Someone moaning about sex is the biggest turn off there is.
And fuck all that dressing up shit. Seriously. Who has time for that at the end of a long day?!
You are happy to dress up at the weekend, he says he doesn't want to do it then as you are under duress.
You are not happy to dress up mid week and he wants to insist you do it then, when you would be under duress.
Do you think he is more turned on by knowing you are doing something you don't really want to do?
Yes, he will pooka.
I don't thing the porn habit has completely changed, just reduced.
In fairness to DH, he does a lot of caring lovely things for me too.He would wait on me hand and foot if I asked him too, and recently took me on an amazing holiday. He is - outside of the sex thing - one of life's 'looker afterers'
He would wait on me hand and foot if I asked him to
He is - outside of the sex thing - one of life's 'looker afterers'
That doesn't entitle him to call the shots
He would wait in you hand and foot but won't use a plate or pick up his crumbs when you ask him to?
Does he go in for grand gestures (like "buying you" a new kitchen) but do less day to day stuff (like tidying said kitchen)?
My DH is bloody grateful to get ANY sex, let alone with bells and whistles on. And he earns loads more that me. And he tidies up (sometimes without being asked).
Your DH should value you as a person first and foremost and respect the fact that you work and are not his paid prostitute. And isn't sexual activity under duress rape? So he can pipe down about demanding anything from you with intimidation of any sort.
But he's not looking after you is he? He's making you feel under pressure and like you're not good enough unless you conform to his porntastic image of sex.
Everyone else has said everything. This would be it for me, though:
A couple of months ago, DH told me that if I won't dress up for sex - ie. stockings, suspenders, thong, basque, whatever - he can't see any point in our relationship continuing.
I would say well, off you trot then, sweetheart. Even if you love him, love cannot solve all things, and lack of respect is as serious as it gets in a marriage.
I was absolutely flabberghasted. It was like being kicked in the head. He did apologise, and we patched things up a bit, but he keeps coming back to the same thing every time we have words. He says that it would make him feel wanted and appreciated, that he is constantly giving to me, and that I give nothing back.
And by nothing, he means sex. Bloody hell.
The real thing is, although life is stressful now, with work and teenagers and all those things, what if the shit REALLY hit the fan? Could you rely on a man as selfish as this to support you "in sickness and in health"?
He didn't take you on holiday OP, you are married, you went together.
You're catching his attitude.
Another massive LTB from me.
Goodness. Not read all the replies but I think there is a huge consensus. He sounds like a not very nice man to be honest. A relationship in all aspects, including sexually, is meant to be mutual and two way NOT just to fulfil his needs. I think a serious serious conversation about your future is required and do you really want to stay with someone who seems to hold you in such disregard? You have some serious thinking to do.
I got as far as him trying to blackmail you into wearing stockings and suspenders for sex.
Tell him to fuck off.
Seriously. How dare he tell you that your relationship is worthless unless you dress up like a cliched idea of what a hooker looks like.
Just because he's nice in other ways, does NOT make sexual harrassment OK!
for a few nights start watching porn yourself and find somethng to turn you on, that involves him putting himself out, wearing dresses might be fun, or even stockings
Would he stand for you saying if he wants the marriage to last, you are insisting on applying a strap on every thursday?
One of my ex's was obsessed with stockings and suspenders and it went from the occasional thing to every single time. He would request "stockings and suspenders" in this little baby voice that immediately killed any desire for him stone dead!
I therefore find this quite repellant in any man. Also think it's quite an old fashioned thing. The younger men I know don't get it all.
Anyway, point being, he sounds utterly grim and I personally could not find him attractive.
Hope you're reading this you horrible bully.
Also, just wanted to say, all the financial and household duties he does are perfectly irrelevant to the discussion. (Also the crumbs on the plate, to be honest, but I think you are focusing on this because it's easier than looking at the awful selfish sex demands.)
You are married. When you chose (mutually) to get married, what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine. So it is not relevant who earns the most, or how often he hoovers. He should hoover, and contribute fairly to the married household. So what if he earns more? Why do (either of you) care about this?
The fact that he doesn't listen to your point of view is a much bigger problem than the fact you don't want to dress up for him. You are a person with feelings in this relationship but he is treating you more like a household appliance.
Get rid of him and let him watch all the porn he wants.
Ask him how he would feel if a nasty, grubby man was treating his DD like this.
Agree with Bruins, you are reflecting the messages he's giving you in worrying ways.
OP you are a woman who is raising a child, does tough and worthwhile work outside the home, and runs the home. Don't let him make you feel inadequate. Don't let him teach you you should be grateful.
Why does he want you to put it to MN'ers?? He's already got his fixed and rigid views about what constitutes a good sex life, i.e.' the little woman should play sexy porn star hooker else I'm being short changed, after all I'm giving her a nice life'.
I'd be so turned off I'd close shop for good.
You know what? Kindness, good manners and a caring nature turn me on. Someone being a sulky child who demands their own way and won't even consider listening to my needs makes my fanny shrivel up. There. Does he understand that?
I'm sure he does 'look after' you.
For men like this, it takes the place of respect and an equal relationship. He treats you like a dependant or a child, and has no concept of you as a separate and equal person.
He won't change or reform, OP. Men like this are not only kind of second-rate as grown up partners, they're also not very clever or mentally versatile, or any good at emotional maturity.
And, 'an avid user of porn' - what a nasty mental image. Bleurgh.
Move on and out. This isn't a man who can make even the most vaguely intelligent woman happy for very long, and I predict a frustrating and grim future for you if you stay.
A caring person likes to look after people and there's nothing wrong with that. A controlling person likes to care for someone by managing their life, choosing what car they drive, how they have their hair cut, picking out their clothes and positioning them like a doll. That's not an equal partnership.
Spot on Bruins.
Sounds like he has bought into all that claptrap about wife being a lady in the drawing room and a whore in the bedroom, no hope of changing that knobbish attitude I'm afraid.
A woman will not feel sexy and in the mood after running around clearing up messes you and your child make because you cannot be bothered to make a simple adjustment such as using a plate.
Either clear up after yourself and your child or shock horror use a plate.
Give a little and you will get in return.
Selfish gits take until the giver becomes resentful and stops.
PS Mrs Anti treating your child and expecting the same as from hers is spot on.
Gain some respect for your wife and all she does and teach your child to be respectful too. Mrs Anti is not your employee or servant.
Urgh. I had an ex who liked me to dress up. He was an avid porn user too, and a high earner who thought that this fact meant I should be grateful and do what he wanted.
This post makes me shiver and brings back horrible memories of what he said/did to me.
Sorry OP, he's horrible
He treats you like he has bought you and you are his slave - sorry but I am going to join the LTB chorus too. Porn use is bad enough frankly.
'he said it doesn't count because I'm only doing it under duress. He is insistent that I should, on say, a Tuesday evening...'
And he can't spot the problem with this logic? It's never occurred to him that you are under duress because, ermm, he is putting you under duress?
He sounds like a domineering controlling bully.
You are not in an equal partnership, as your comments about him propping your finances up and him taking you on holiday show, not to mention that he completely disregards your simple requests such as using a plate.
You have only been married a year but already are unhappy in the relationship. I think if you stay with him, these problems will get worse. What will he be demanding from you when old age causes him erectile problems? You can be sure that you will be blamed for any failure on his part.
What sort of signals are you giving your daughter about relationships? At present you are teaching her that being subservient is a good role for women.
Did you know about his porn use before you married him?
You sound like a kind caring woman Anti but I think you are in for an unhappy life with this man, because he won't change.
PS Don't bother going to therapy with him, abusers and therapy don't mix.
He obviously has a low opinion of women so I hardly think he will take on board any of the comments. He sees you as an object not as a person.
Do yourself a favour and LTB.
Imagine how simple life would be without his twattery.
I wouldn't leave my husband if he dropped biscuit crumbs. I wouldn't leave him if we had different sex drives (we do) I say no and he accepts it like he would if I didn't want to wear sexy undies. I would make the effort for him though.
Your man can't up your sex drive by nagging you!
Unfortunately he has been savaged on here, called all sorts, if you had matching sex drives then I suppose he wouldn't be all the things people have described him as on here. Funny old world ain't it?
"if you had matching sex drives then I suppose he wouldn't be all the things people have described him as on here."
It's not a 'sex-drive mismatch' to be threatened with the end of a relationship for not wearing suspenders.... It's bullying
Good grief, what an entitled, self-centred, porn obsessed, misogynistic cockwomble your DH is.
Seriously, tell him not to let the door hit his arse on the way out.
He gets to keep the porn habit, the frilly drawers obsession and his bedroom 'standards' while you get freedom, time and space to be you and the ability to have people use plates for biscuits.
You have missed the point quite spectacularly, Quitelikely.
He sounds utterly vile and a wanker, talk about objectifying a person.
If people want to mutually do stuff and dress up fine but laying it on the line like that and threatening the end of the relationship if you won't dress up.
No, No QuiteLikely - I like sex, I want sex, just not when I'm knackered and not when I'm being bullied and hectored into doing it a certain way all the time!
Yes, I did know about his porn use before we got married.
Also, I think I'm possibly coming across as a bit more passive than I actually am. I'm confident and assertive, and I generally won't do things that I don't want to do. For example: DH doesn't like the way I do laundry (I tend to overuse the tumble drier, so shoot me ) therefore, I just do mine and DD's washing, my way, and leave him to do his own. On the other hand, I bake bread for him, because I enjoy it and he appreciates it, so win-win. I don't see myself as subservient, and nor does he.
Thanks for all your replies. It's thought provoking stuff.
Also, I was a happily single parent for 9 years. I know what it's like to be totally independent and run the show. Being married brings a new set of challenges, but on balance, I prefer it.
I just want him to stop harrassing me and appreciate what he has.
Has your H RTT yet? Is he going to post/engage with MN'ers on the matters you have raised?
No, I haven't told him about it yet.
I don't think him being ripped to shreds on here would help me very much, tbh!
"I just want him to stop harrassing me and appreciate what he has."
Then you must call his bluff. If he actually said there's no point in the relationship continuing without elasticated foundation garments being wheeled out mid-week, then you must very seriously tell him that you quite agree and ask him when he'll be moving out.
He will only appreciate what he has when there is a realistic chance of losing it. Always stand up to a bully. Don't bake bread for it...
I'd tell him to shove a plate of hobnobs up his arse.
I can't get my head round why he thinks the relationship can't continue if you won't dress up when he demands it. Does he really see no point in being with you any more if he doesn't get exactly what he demands sexually? And let's face it, his sulk at not having his request for sex with dressing up at least twice a week met is a bit ridiculous. I could understand him saying he can't cope with no sex at all for months at a stretch, but he's getting plenty. He's being really selfish.
Also, his "high standards domestically, and high standards in the bedroom" comment is really weird. Is sex only of an acceptable standard to him if it involves lingerie and costumes? Does he not grasp the other thousands of ways of making sex enjoyable, or the concept of mutual pleasure? He sounds too fixated on the one thing that gets him off, and too selfish to see / care that it does nothing for you.
So he wants you to do something you won't enjoy doing because it will satisfy him?
I think what he wants is for me to want it too.
Which I do
Just not when I'm knackered and have spent 14 hours dealing with everyone else's needs rather than my own.
He doesn't get to decide what you should want to do. He needs to get that idea right out of his head.
I don't get what he means by "we should have high standards domestically, and high standards in the bedroom" - if he's not helping maintain your high domestic standards by doing something as basic as using a plate, then he can't expect you to maintain standards he's imposed in the bedroom. Makes no logical sense ... unless he is confusing the word "we" with the word "you"?
You go along with his fantasy because you like to see him have fun. Does he do anything designed to turn you on and make you happy? What is all this giving he says he is doing? Is he giving you little things that you like and cost more thought and love than cash, or is he talking about going to work and earning money (which he would do whether you were there or not)?
Sounds like he grew up watching Benny Hill.
Anti, but you do want to do it and do it when you want to why the hell can't he accept that? That's what an equal, respectful partnership is about.
He wants it all his way or no way irrespective of your needs or wants at that particular time, that's not an equal respectful partnership.
"I think what he wants is for me to want it too"
A good sex-life revolves around both people being compatible. Means communicating, being considerate and sensitive to each other's needs. It's got to be two-way thing.
I'm still struck that the time elapsed between meeting and marrying was so short. My guess is that you thought the 'at it like rabbits' phase was a phase and he thought he'd hit pay-dirt and found someone who could live up to his porn-fuelled fantasies...underwear included... any day of the week. Stating that unless you do X the relationship is down the pan is unacceptable.
So what are you planning to do about this OP?
I think you should show him.
He asked you to put it to us and you have and you've had the responses.
Surely he should get to see them?
I can see why you snapped him up so quickly, he must've been beating them off with a stick.
He feels entitled to demand that you act out his sexual fantasies and is prepared to issue threats to achieve it. You have a relationship dynamic where you are expected to show gratitude
dress up like the orifices on his wank fodder in return for his 'niceness' usual activities for an equal caring partner.
Time for your partner standards to catch up with your housework standards. Oh and this type of selfishness is rarely confined to the bedroom but I'm guessing its hard to achnowledge that when you're being so damn grateful all the time.
He needs to see these responses.
Would he not appreciate how others view him? Time to burst his bubble OP.
I guess so, hellsbells, but I think there's a risk that this will seriously antagonise him and make matters worse. Even I wasn't expecting it to be so unanimous.
cogito - you may well have hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph.
The "giving" thing: yes, he's very financially and materially generous, but he's also very attentive - pouring me a glass of wine when I get home, tea every morning, breakfast in bed, that sort of thing.
But I don't think he's aware of half of the stuff I do around the house. He was complaining this morning that he does all the cat-care. I pointed out that just because he doesn't always see me when I'm emptying the litter tray and sweeping up twice a day, it doesn't mean it didn't actually happen...
Maybe give him a general summary first and see if he believes you and then if you have to you can show him?
One of my ex's was obsessed with stockings and suspenders and it went from the occasional thing to every single time. He would request "stockings and suspenders" in this little baby voice that immediately killed any desire for him stone dead!
Sorry, I can't stop laughing at this gem from another poster on here (sorry I forgot the name, it was a few pages back). Priceless!
It sounds as though the real problem is that he feels entitled to have sex the way he wants it whenever he wants it that way. And that he's set you up to lose by saying that you getting dressed up at weekends doesn't count as you're doing it "under duress." Unless his outlook changes dramatically, you will never be able to win, you will never be able to count on him taking a reasonable attitude toward sex (i.e.: my partner is not a prostitute and I'm not entitled to get
a biscuit sex with suspenders just because I want it at that moment).
I would agree with calling his bluff. Or ask him if he's willing to do counselling to see if you can reach a better understanding of one another, instead of just declaring the marriage over right now over Suspendergate. But be very careful if he does agree to counselling--if he has controlling tendencies (rather than just being a bit stupid and selfish about his sexual expectations) he could use it to manipulate you with--keep your eyes open.
I know I'm laughing but I'm sorry you're going through this. It's very painful to encounter such unreasonable behaviour from a partner.
Tell him high standards in the bedroom means quality not quantity. Reall mutually enjoyable sex when you areboth in the right mood and when it's based on respect both ways.
He has to learn the idea of delayed gratification.
He doesn't see you as contributing anything to the relationship/your life together other than being a sex object.
If he really meant what he said, then that's how he feels. It's really that simple. He feels that sex is the only thing you give him that he values, therefore it has to be on his terms every single time.
Tell him to get stuffed. Why did his previous relationship end? Was it something to do with seeing women as sex objects?
fairphyllis has it fairly summed up IMHO
This thread is making me (and I expect a few others) feel so uncomfortable. I'm not sure why, perhaps because it feels as though the clocks have been turned back to another era.
Anti you're only forty, how can you put up with this? Show him the thread, please.
I just re-read the OP and he sounds like a total cunt.
'got a telling off' for asking his dd to use a plate!!
I think he's a complete twat.
And I think that you should tell him that the mumsnet collective also think he's a twat...not that he will take any notice because he is obviously always right!
I'd tell him to FOTTFSOFATFOSM.
Does he have a golden cock for you to worship?
And OP you are also slipping into this attitude that you should be grateful to him for behaving like a normal partner:
"[he] props me up a bit financially, which I'm incredibly grateful for and regularly tell him so"
He does not "prop you up". Yes your standard of living is probably higher than it was before your marriage, but you were independently supporting yourself and your child before you married. Now you are married, you are both living on joint family money, not on "his" money. And the fact you are telling him you are grateful is probably only reinforcing his attitude that he is the provider in exchange for sex (specifically, exactly the sex that he wants).
"[he] recently took me on an amazing holiday."
No, you went on a joint holiday together, using family money.
"He is - outside of the sex thing - one of life's 'looker afterers'"
This is normal in a relationship, not something you should be extra grateful for.
He is bullying you. Issuing ultimatums about ending the relationship is massively unfair and signals that deep down he doesn't think your feelings are important if they are getting in the way of you being a 24/7 sex fantasy.
Fuck off the far side of fuck and then fuck off some more!
Anti this is a big issue. I know you're trying to balance it against him making tea and taking you on holiday but he is setting you up to fail. If you dress up at the weekends, it's not good enough. If, under duress, you dress up during the week, do you really think that would be good enough? It sounds as though there would be some other issue eg then he'd complain it was under duress too (because it would be!).
I had an ex who used to make big bold statements like your dh. My biggest mistake was downplaying them because they seemed so ridiculous, I assumed he couldn't really mean what he was saying. He did mean it. And I only wish I had really listened much sooner and not wasted time with him.
He's undermining you. The biscuit issue seems to be saying he can set rules for the house but you can't despite the fact that the resulting work falls to you.
MN deals in absolutes and that can be hard to hear but you don't need to listen to us, just listen to what he is telling you and see what he is showing you:
Your relationship isn't worth anything if you're not dressing the way he wants, when he wants. It sounds ridiculous but it isn't. He said that about your relationship. What would you tell a friend who said a partner had said that? Wouldn't you be reminding her of everything she brought to the relationship? Telling her how much you valued her and that worthwhile relationships aren't built on conditions and threats? Now, you can tell yourself the same.
That is TO the far side!
Thanks for enlightening me hellsbells
He says that my requests for plate use are just one of many examples of my controlling behaviour...
Soooo - he does stuff for you, and he helps you out financially, and he expects that you should dress up for sex, which you do when you have the time but somehow that's not enough for him?
I think he thinks he's losing out on the "deal" - that he's "doing all this stuff for you" and you're just not reciprocating by falling at his feet and doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants.
Newsflash - life ain't like that!
If you truly care about someone, then you do stuff for them with no expectation of recompense. If you're doing it in the hope that you'll get something back, then chances are you'll be disappointed (and he is).
I also agree with the illogicality of not appreciating you dressing up at the weekend because he thinks it's under duress but still trying to force you to dress up midweek when you're knackered - what?
Silly question - has he got someone else on the go? Because if they start putting you in an impossible situation, setting you up for a fall, then it can be a sign that they're looking for a fight, looking for a reason to exit the relationship and make it All About You Being Wrong.
Perhaps you should take turns with the dressing up - you do it at the weekends and he can do it midweek (if you still care enough, I wouldn't) - see how he likes getting all dressed up in whatever turns you on after a day at work!
AS for the biscuits thing, that's just rude.
Tbh I agree the using a plate thing is a bit controlling but I'm sure you'd agree to drop that if he cleaned up the crumbs. The in-week dressing up I agree with everyone else, just seems weird, unnecessary and pressurising. I hope he sees why he's being an idiot...
Ahhhh... of course.
It's YOU who is controlling.
All controlling bullies say this.
Why is it controlling if you'd rather crumbs land on a plate than on the floor where YOU have to clear them up?
His logic is completely flawed.
The more you write the more of a twat he sounds.
It never ceases to amaze me what some people will tolerate in relationships. My DH are from from perfect and have our issues but neither of us would feel as entitled as your DH seems to be.
Honestly he sounds like a dick.
Oh, God yes! I'm just trying to save myself extra work. He can make as much mess as he likes if he's going to clean it up himself.
I'm fairly confident there's no one else. We are together most of the time, work together, and he rarely goes out, except cycling. Still, I suppose one never knows.
I feel like I have 'fallen' into the 1950's
I must be desperately controlling then - I make all the males in my family (DH, Ds1 (6) and DS2 (21mo)) eat from plates, bowls or at the table. I really CBA to be chasing around cleaning up their crumbs all the time and I know damn well no one else would do it!
Thanks Thumbwitch, nice to know I'm not alone
Anti, You're a social worker (I think you said) ? (and is he??)
What would you say to a client who told you that her OH was demanding sex with her even when she didn't want it and had threatened to leave her if she didn't comply?
Yep if that's his best evidence of your unreasonable behaviour he's clutching at straws...maybe you should suggest he has therapy on his own to understand why he has such unrealistic expectations?
Whatever about the crumbs or the other minor issues, he is being ridiculous to try to "insist" you dress up
I would also be fairly confident there isn't anyone else. He's find it hard to discover two people who would put up with it.
Agree with Cogito - he's watched way too much porn and it's skewed his understanding of the sexual side of relationships. Wouldn't be surprised if he'd visited prostitutes in the past either, as he seems to be approaching your relationship like a business transaction.
The biscuits thing is massively disrespectful, where does he get off telling you that you're being controlling when he isn't the one cleaning up his crumbs? He's living in a bubble if he thinks that's controlling .
I don't think I meant that he had another girlfriend/lover as such, I think my subconscious was making the leap to a more specific sort of extramarital activity, with a very specific sort of person who would happily dress up for sex for money...
Oh there you go, Smegs said it too. ONly much more clearly.
Sarine, yes, of course I'd be concerned. Food for thought.
Maryz you made me laugh
Get him a rabbit costume or similar and ask him to wear that at all times. I really couldn't be bothered with this. The biscuit stuff has nothing to do with this issue. You just have to decide how much you want to pander to his whims and take it from there.
I also insist that biscuits are eaten from plates.
Yes I think a few people have intimated that thumbwitch and smegs. I can see why, but I'm 100% confident that's not the case. Thank God.
Agreeing with a PP... it's fairly standard for the controlling person, when challenged, to accuse others of being controlling. Suspicious people accuse others of being suspicious. Unfaithful people accuse others of being unfaithful. It's a version of 'attack is the best form of defence' and they tend to go for something they're familiar with.
It's not 'controlling' to ask someone not to drop crumbs everywhere. Controlling would be dictating that if they didn't use a particular plate and eat a specific kind of biscuit it meant that there was no point in continuing with the relationship.
Anti - I think when we're in a 'caring' profession we can spend a lot of time trying to accommodate other peoples behaviours - be understanding, wondering why etc. It's what we do and it can leach into our own relationships. It helps to take the behaviour away from our own context and just see it for what it is - sexual bullying and selfishness of the highest order.
You've invested a lot in him and it must be very painful to have to confront how awful he's being.
The clearing up after a messy and demanding man sounds like my ex-dh.
I really didn't fancy shagging a man when I felt more like his mother.
It's all been said already. How can he think he's missing out on spontaneity when he has this formulaic approach regarding costume?
I expect next he'll suggest you drop your job so you have more time to see to his needs. He'll present it as another example of how generous he is. That would put you in the situation where you become more dependent. Or as he'd hope, more grateful.
Get a grip (so to speak) Mr AntideluvianCat.
Using threats to coerce someone into doing something sexually that they don't want to do at that moment is sexual abuse.
His good behaviour can't be weighed against his bad behaviour to negate this, its not a point system - he's a man who is attempting sexual abuse and the fact that he pours wine for you can't change this.
I'm sorry but this is so bald but I come across far too many women who don't realise the rights they have over their own bodies and it makes me very sad indeed.
OP, I think you should tell your tool of a husband you have developed a fetish about men wearing nappies. It makes you horny as hell, and insist he does it every time you do the deed. If he doesn't, he mustn't love you and he isn't being a proper husband. Refuse to have sex with him unless he is in full regalia of nappy, romper suit and dummy stuck in his gob
For some people this is a "thing" just like his prediliction for you to dress up in what turns him on.
I had a controlling, abusive pornsick ex who made me wear stockings every time we had sex. He got more and more demanding as the relationship went on. It took me a few years after our relationship ended to realise that his coercion and bullying amounted to rape. Three years of lying there dead-eyed while he raped me and watched porn at the same time. I was too frightened to say no. Obviously this is an extreme example, but I just recognise that same sense of entitlement in your post. Leave him, OP, before he has ground you down to the point where you don't even realise you're being treated like a piece of meat.
He sounds foul to be honest, I don't know how you can bear to have any kind of sex with him.
I have only read the op, and I think he sounds disturbingly unpleasant. Nasty, controlling, and unreasonable.
Blimey gargalesis, I'm sorry to hear that x
<Google's adult nappies>
So basically unless you regularly dress up on a weeknight and shag him, the rest of your relationship and all the other things you do for him and his child, are meaningless? I think he's told you incredibly clearly how he sees you, and what you're (only) good for. How horrible for you to find this out.
OP, if your husband had his way, you too would be submitting to the kind of treatment meted out to gargalesis.
OP, I am going back to your first post here but what I found illuminating about your mindset here is that when you found things to "balance" his shitty treatment of you the first thing you listed was "DH has more money than me"
Do you agree that because he supports you financially he is entitled to have unrealistic sexual expectations of you, and that you are bound to comply ?
I know elephants
I just don't want to believe it.
Then have a bloody good think about what you are willing to accept from him.
I am sorry he comes across as a knob. What about the things you want.
Actually do you know what, almost the worst thing about this is the fact that you can't just RELAX in your relationship. You're married FGS and you have a family, but you still have to worry about your appearance - not the minimum standard of "try not to drip gravy down your front and wash regularly", but actually dressing up!! I really do think that taking on some of the suggestions here and mirroring his behaviour might make him see how bloody unreasonable and ridiculous he's being.
You should pretty clearly LTB, so I won't comment further on your OP.
But using a plate so you don't drop crumbs all over the floor... that's basic good manners, which he should have learned by age 5 at the latest. It's not you being controlling. Seriously even my DC don't cover the sofa in crumbs.
It's all about him isn't it? His wants and his needs. Sex is about compromise and respect and listening to your partner. If you don't want to dress up then don't. If you're knackered and don't want to do it then he should respect that. What you do for him on a daily basis is irrelevant. Making your partner do things they don't want to is abusive.
How joyless to have to be so regimented in your sex life. Having to dress up all the time?
You said you work together, is your H a social worker too?
What would you say if your DD came home one day and told you her partner treats her this way?
Sex can be an expression of love and it can be fucking for the pressure of fuck.
Sounds to me like he just wants to fuck and when you both have sex, he's not expressing love or wanting to be with you, he just wants to fuck for his pleasure.
Of course there's nothing wrong with enjoying sex because sex is good, but there's something seriously wrong if that's all he wants.
He is so disgusting. Just eeuugghh! He doesn't want a real sexual relationship, just this disturbed image from his porn fueled mind.
Don't really want to get into too much detail about our jobs as it would make us quite identifiable
Another one over here who thought he should fuck right off. I find it a little worrying that you mention money and the balance between you two with that. That doesn't mean you owe him - you're in a relationship, you're not a prostitute. Does he watch a lot of porn? Sounds like he's lost his way a bit with enjoying sex in simpler ways
I presume you aren't going to be able to show him the thread at this stage
He sounds, frankly, creepy. Nothing wrong with dressing up occasionally, but does he never want loving, vanilla sex? Or a quickie? And I agree about the financial imbalance - it sounds like you are insinuating he believes it to be a bit of a transaction - he cleans/subs you financially in return for you dressing up.
All the wine pouring, holiday booking, money earning in the world doesn't mean jack when you are being bullied for sex.
It's not like he's toting up sex points by behaving like a decent human being.
" if I won't dress up for sex - ie. stockings, suspenders, thong, basque, whatever - he can't see any point in our relationship continuing"
He's living in an adolescent porn driven fantasy land. I can't believe he asked you to put this to us thinking we'd side with his pov...how the fuck has he made it to the age of 50 while still being so spectacularly clueless?
Of course, when he hears how the mumsnetters have sided, we'll all be frigid bitches and man haters, and nothing will convince him otherwise.
He's had 50 years to practice being him, so Mr Stockings-and-Suspenders is there to stay.
What a tawdry man.
Doesn't sound like a very satisfying or happy scenario to me. You have my sympathy OP. He must be exhausting.
He's a cunt.
Get rid, job done
Why does what he wants in bed matter more than what you want?
"I'm exhausted from work and the constant bloody grind of housework and organising everything."
Why do you do everything?
So OP are you going to show him this thread?
I am in the LTB camp by the way, you deserve better. Leave him with his bloody porn
I don't want this to turn into a porn debate but I really think it's key here and you need to discuss it with him.
Others upthread have picked up on this too as it's recognised that porn can create unrealistic expectations and ideas of how sex should be.
The only reason I can see for your DH to suggest posting here is because he actually expected us to all say how much we love dressing up and there's no bigger turn on than turning your man on, so you should do it more etc etc
He thinks this because his views are based on porn and the fact that those women are always up for it and more than happy to oblige. Even if he knows that not every woman is like that, seeing it over and over makes him think that there must still be a lot of women just "gagging for it" all the time.
He's now starting to become desensitised to "normal" sex without any props or particular fantasy. This is a concern as it suggests that just the closeness and intimacy of being with his wife isn't sexually enough-and that's nothing to do with how desirable you are. Unfortunately, you are now the prop in the show.
Wanting this as part of a varied sexual diet is one thing but I'd be very offended if DH said he didn't want sex with me but did want it with the sexy secretary from work or the kinky nurse who's just clocking off, or whatever other depressing stereotypes get him going.
Really, he has a problem with sex and it stems from his porn use and possible past prostitute use.
His attitude to women in general, not just you, is a big problem.
There's a lot of talking to be done and none of it need be about biscuits!
On the biscuit front though-if he inhales/sucks in during the biscuit bite then the amount of crumbs will be reduced massively. We are so good at it now that we don't need plates anymore
I do everything because no one else would even notice that it needed doing. And I want to live in a pleasant environment and be reasonably organised, thus avoiding any last minute panicking, losing things, etc.
And yes I am going to show his this thread, because I am fucking fuming. Thank you for helping the scales fall from my eyes. I am going to meet my oldest friend at 9 o'clock for an emergency bucket of wine, because at the moment I don't want to even be in the same fucking post code as him.
He hasn't just discovered this- he knew he liked it when he met you, ( experience and age - you know what turns you on, be it bondage, vanilla, whatever) so its strange he didn't make an effort to find out if you liked it as well, as clearly sexually you could be incompatible.
Its a bit late now, unless you want to dress up, but frankly, after him saying what he has, it would make you feel under pressure and not enjoy it.
So he's an arse, and not a very emotionally intelligent one.
The thing about performance sex is that it's fine for occasions but it creates a layer between the two of you, which can act as a barrier to genuine, communicative, intimate sex. Without that, a sex life if meaningless.
Yy lavender - it's not that I don't like it, I just don't want to do it all the time or be harrassed into it!
It's not, actually, really about sex or about porn. It's about his idea that a 'woman' is something which a man is entitled to own and train to obedience. He sees women as a cross between domestic appliances and domestic pets. As has been said on similar threads in the past, this type of abusive man may 'love' his female partner in the way some people love their dogs.
You have a dog; you love it. You make sure it's properly fed and has a comfortable home, you treat it, on the whole, with affection. But at the same time, it's a dog. It's not allowed on some of the furniture. It has to be trained to obey. It has to Know Its Place. It's a dog.
Has the question Why the fuck would you marry him after knowing him only a year when you have kids to consider been asked yet?
This is ringing some large bells for me OP, clanking bells.
Crumbs is a sign of a lack of considerable, insisting on dressing up, or threatening 'the end' is a sign of disdain and contempt.
A normal man might suggest it, but "insist"? No. An arse.
Don't show him the thread, show him the door.
I don't think it's a very mumsnetty thing to do but I would like to edge toward you and give you an awkward hug, AntideluvianCat. I"m sorry you're in this situation. I know you deserve much better than this.
My XH was into the dressing up. All the time. Every time.
I reckoned it could have been anyone wearing those clothes. It was the clothes that turned him on, not making love with his wife.
I don't think we ever did make love but we did have sex.
You have a difficult decision to make.
Hissy - I'd known him for more than a year. We work together.
And thank you, eggnut, your hug is much appreciated
That's an interesting point pax "It was the clothes that turned him on" - it could probably have been anyone inside the clothes.
Sorry you have had such an abrupt wake-up call. His reaction to all of this will be interesting.
If he needs clothes to feel turned on then it's the clothes that he fancies, not you. Give him a handful of underwear, tell him to wank himself to death then kick his sad, creepy, sexist arse out the door. Yuck and double yuck!
He thinks he has bought you and now he wants you to fulfil your half of the bargain.
Get rid. Asap. And pity his poor daughter.
Right. I'm going out, and he's (presumably) going to read this.
I may be back tomorrow.
I hope you enjoy your wine OP. This would be a huge turn off for me and he would be lucky to get sex at all. I have done the dressing up thing in my relationships, but it was my choice, not my partner demanding it of me.
I suggest you buy the biggest vibrator you can find, tell him you have decided to spice things up a bit and shove it up his
arse oxo tower.
My Dh would frankly swoon at the amount of sex you two are having, and we are very similar ages to you two. Look up 'objectify' , op's Dh. And 'mutual' while you're at it.
This isnt a healthy relationship. Decent partners dont spout petulant crap when they dont get their way all the time, esp not in the bedroom.
Happy marriages dont have high standards sexually other than just that both partners are caring and thoughtful and hopefully most of the time satisfied. We dont always get what we exactly want every time we make love fgs and certainly not by demanding and bullying our partners into meeting our exacting needs.
Im afraid i agree he sounds like a man who is developing the rigid ideas that come with an unhealthy interest in porn.
You havent said one thing about him that redeems him in anyway, so what that he conceded
So what that he pushes the hoover around once a week. Its his house too. And he cant do you the simple courtesy of using a plate when he eats?
Just remind us what you love about him?
Ah, I see love, it was the comment you made about being together 2yrs, married one.
Knowing someone is nothing like going out wwith them, having a relationship with them, as you're finding out.
This man, I strongly feel, is abusive. He's warming up, it won't get better, only worse. He thinks you only there to serve him, to please him.
Please don't show him this thread, he'll only use it to his own advantage to further control you.
He'll discount and disagree with everything here that doesn't support him, he'll discredit the support you get here.
Love, you have to seriously look at what you get out of this relationship and how equal things are. Think about what it's showing your dd about relationships.
Everything about this is just... Odd. His attitude, his demands, the fact that you doing it isn't enough. It's all such a horrible way of looking at the wife you are supposed to love and respect.
I hope you enjoy your bucket of wine, op. Hold on to that anger, it's justified.
What a twat. Shocking lack of respect for you as a woman.
Do not feel you should bend to his whims and "requirements" because he "props you up financially" you are not an escort.
I'd tell him to fuck right off.
You're giving him what he wants and it's still not good enough.
Is this dressing up thing perhaps something he did with a hooker and he is trying to "relive" the experience with you?? It does seem as if he's saying that's literally the only way he will have sex with you, which would earn a hearty "piss off!" from me.
Christ on a fucking bike; what a sordid transaction this 'relationship' is.
All these 'nice' things are purely to buy your participation in his sex fantasies.
Shocked at the 'he took me on holiday' comment, when as someone said up thread you went together,!
I know. I'm an idiot (and a bit pished).
Am now in the marital bed. Not talking to him. He askedwhether I'd had a nice evening. I told him there is only one thing he can say of any relevance, and that is, "I'm sorry".
Hasn't happened yet. Could be a long night.
God, I'm angry.
Thank you, nest of vipers.
I don't want to leave him. I actually really like him. He's clever and funny and lovely. We have so much fun together. If only he could stop this
But I think (hope) this could be a catalyst.
Has he read the thread then, Cat?
So did he RTFT?
There are three possible reactions:
1) Oh shit, I've been a bit of a dick, sorry (followed by a frank discussion of what you want
2) They are a crowd of harpies, why are you listening to them?
3) Pretending he hasn't RTFT which actually is the same as 2)
I don't know. We don't seem to be communicating
at all very well
Problem is, "this" isn't just a small foible. It's his fundamental underlying personality. It can't just be brushed under the carpet as a quirk.
Have you considered writing him a letter.
I love you and want to make a life with you, but I'm really worried about our sex life. It bothers me that you only want to make love if I'm dressed up. It makes me feel that you only like the dressed-up-as-a-porn-star version of sex, rather than wanting to make love to me because I'm me.
Added to which I get very tired, and when I'm tired I don't really feel like sex, and you trying to push me to "perform" makes me feel even less like participating at all.
Can we please discuss this. I'm not an actress in a "oooo, sexy nurse does it in suspenders" film, I'm a real person who has a life outside the bedroom and would like to think that my partner appreciates me as a person rather than me as a decorated sex object.
Or something like that.
I hope things change for you.
He sounds arse like but if he will fix it then all is not lost.
Hope you manage to communicate
He's a shit and you know it.However, he's your shit and you will not take any notice or advice from us.Sorry but you really won't,will you?
Of course I will maras
I started the thread because I wanted to hear what you guys had to say, not because he told me to
I am now seriously considering my position, as they say.
Is there any possibility that he has video or photos of your sex life?
It's okay that he hasn't RTT. Let's face it, it's not really about him. We aren't commenting for his benefit.
Wow, I've just caught up with your full thread OP. I have been alternately at some posters comments, at your situation and that others have experienced what you are going through. At one point, I too felt that I had been transported back to the 1950's, where women were expected to be a lady in the parlour, a cook in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom .
I think this 'man' really isn't as wonderful as you think he is, and that this is gradually dawning on you. Many posters are showing you that his demand and control of you is unreasonable. Is it possible that this particular situation is only the tip of the iceberg? Could you characterise the rest of the relationship to us, no holds barred?
It's late, and you've been drinking. I think you should probably try to set a time for a calm discussion. Mayrz's letter idea is good.
Meantime, think about how you view yourself and the relationship - you've made some odd comments regarding his financial contributions etc. and the value of that to your emotional relationship. Check in with yourself about your boundaries, what you require in terms of respect. You need to be clear, so the discussion doesn't descend into biscuit-gate etc.
Good luck. I hope he turns out to be the man you think he was when you married him, and not the version who appears onscreen to us as a horrible arse!
I feel so sorry for you- you sound lovely .
This can't go on: can you seriously imagine a sex-life in the longterm where you had to truss yourself up in stockings and suspenders every time? Whatever the kink, it gets old fast, especially when you start to feel like your partner prioritises it over an actual mutual relationship with a real woman. You've explained why you don't fancy the palaver on a constant basis, but he has ignored that and thrown his toys out of the pram and issued a petulant ultimatum.
I suggest you call his bluff- there's no way you can just fall into line once you've realised how selfish and dickish he's being. It would feel like a tiny death every time, and you'd end up despising yourself as well as resenting him.
It's hard to admit you've backed the wrong horse, but it's much worse to keep riding it to somewhere you don't want to go.
I think I stead of expecting you to get changed into your pussy sexing outfit at 9.30 on a Tuesday, he should run you a lively bubble bath and give you a back massage.
Agree with Pps. But don't think you should LTB. Don't think you should evrn dignify it with a discussion.
You just do what you want to do and wear what you want to wear.
If he stomps off in a petulant huff let him. But don't give him the air time of duscussing it.
And if he drops crumbs tell him to clean it up. If he doesn't get rid of all the biscuits.
He is being a cock.
wtf???????????? I can't imagine how degrading it would be to be forced to dress up for a man before he could enjoy sex with me. He's a bully. bullys aren't all bad but they are bad where it counts.
The idea that you need to canvas opinion on this along with the fact you are surprised by the overwhelming response suggests he has already begun rewiring your thought processes.
He's no very nice really, not very nice at all.
Message deleted by MNHQ at poster's request.
He would find it sexy if you wore stockings and suspenders.
Men are visual.
You would fit it sexy if he used a plate. Stopped hassling you for sex and if you felt loved, and good enough just by being you.
Women are emotional.
It's hard to do something when someone nags you about it. Even if you do enjoy it you start to feel resentful doing it and stop liking it. That fun thing now has a negative connotation.
He needs to understand, and why he's failing to see it I don't know, that you KNOW that's what he likes. That doesn't mean it needs to be every time. Makes it less special. He doesn't need to nag you about it, you'll do it when you feel like it.
If that's not good enough, if YOU are not good enough, will you ever be?
Ask him to dress up for you. No, tell him to. Tell him to wear your knickers. Maybe that will spark some understanding.
However in all seriousness I think Maryz' letter is a good idea.
I'm not going to say ltb over this, but your husband IS being a totally immature pray of the highest order. Any sexual "service" request that starts with"if you loved me then you would..." Should be met with an automatic "you're being a fucking pillock".
How about "if you loved me then you wouldn't NEED me to be trussed up like some 80's hooker every fucking time we have sex."
It sounds like he has the men talk age of a teenager when it comes to sex.
tell him that you'll do it more often only if HE dresses up in the same thing on a regular basis. Complete with lipstick (ala rocky horror).
What a knob end.
Sorry for typos.
I tried dressing up for my partner once - the full works. When he walked in you could have cut the awkwardness with a knife.
Just to let you know that this isn't something every couple are doing on a regular basis...
Great letter maryz
Anti I actually would write that out and give it to him.
Also, it's ridiculous for him to say "WE should have high standards" in any area unless 1) you have both agreed that those standards are important and 2) he is prepared to make significant contributions to meeting those standards. What he really means is "I will set standards to my taste and sit back and evaluate whether you have met them." Which is, again, ridiculous, and also shitty.
How are u this morning op? I'd go with maryz letter. Not over emotional but just enough that if he isn't a complete arse it should wake him up to realise he needs to change.
He clearly isn't working hard enough and pulling his weight every single day if he thinks you can add get changed, put on make up and suspenders etc after a normal days work, dc, evening doing chores- oh, wait, this is your last chore isn't it?
You've got a few issues here, but the sex one - soon you won't want to at all, because you'll be thinking he only wants it with you dressed up. So you'll start to feel even more pressure. And its not your job to turn him on so he wants sex. You mutually do that. What, is he enjoying a glass of wine / dropping biscuits all over the floor whilst you're upstairs getting ready for his big moment?
End the relationship? Tbh, if its such a big deal to him, he's probably right. I couldn't face a lifetime of dressing up every night for sex.
Only came to this thread and you have had very good replies and suggestions (such as LTB, FOTTFSOFAFOSM, him dressing up, stop the porn, stop being an arse and so on).
Also, I think I'm possibly coming across as a bit more passive than I actually am. I'm confident and assertive, and I generally won't do things that I don't want to do.
We all start like this. Many abused women report being assertive, independent and confident, only to have lost it over the years because they have stood by a man who was controlling, ungrateful, demanding, manipulative and overall abusive.
The way I read it he is on the first steps towards full blown abuse.
He is financially abusive if you have it ingrained that there's his and your money and you should be grateful for the lifestyle he provides you.
He is sexually abusive because of his demands for sex the way he wants it, with no consideration for your feelings.
He is already treating you like an object if he expects you to clear up after him.
You can try and work it out with him, but his true self is already coming out and if he can't at least see a bit of your point of view now, he'll only manipulate his behaviour to keep you hooked while putting more and more demands on you. Worse than that, you may well find yourself in a situation where you are dependent on him.
The little things he does for you are to keep you hooked. They cost very little for him. On the major things, he's an entitled twat who will destroy you.
Think about it. Do you trust this man to look after you if you get ill?
My only advice here is to LTB. Sorry.
And for your H: let her go and be happy.
I don't agree that the letter is good (sorry Maryz)
It referenced Making Love.
What her H wants and is demanding is NOT making love.
Making love is about giving and sharing and caring. None of any of these ideas are entering his mind.
He couldn't give a shit about her feelings, wants, desires etc.
For him, it's a Fuck, a service, a need HE has. A RIGHT he's demanding.
Ugly. Vile. Abusive.
i'm afraid i agree. you are being objectified. made to feel guilty for him providing financial support, yet your support is not appreciated.
He is, IMO, treating you just like a prostitute. Think about it. He's justifying sex how he likes it, when he likes it, because he provides financial support. Paying for sex. There you go, that pretty much sums it up. Really makes you feel special doesn't it? What an utter twat he is.
You said he looks after you, and yet...
I'm exhausted from work and the constant bloody grind of housework and organising everything
when I've been at work, then come home and have been running around doing domestic chores and coping with / helping / monitoring / disciplining DD til 9.30pm.....I don't want anyone to make anymore demands on me. It's all I can do to crawl into bed and read for half an hour
says that he likes my standards, but doesn't really help to maintain them. I feel that I tidy up after him a lot.
.....I'm not sure how this squares with looking after you, or even being attentive, as you said later.
Bringing you tea, or breakfast in bed, is very nice, but it's reminiscent of tending to a pet or an ornament, rather than genuinely caring about your wellbeing.
Someone who cared about your wellbeing would make sure you weren't worn down by drudgery, and wouldn't dream of suggesting sex if you were.
He's a control freak. Really not worth continuing this relationship. Don't look back in fifteen years regretting having been subordinated.
Yes Hissy, I agree.
I was just scribbling thoughts, it definitely needs rewording. But I do think writing it down will help the op sort out what she wants, and will stop him interrupting and derailing a conversation.
You're still young. Could you really stomach another 40 years of this? It's not going to get any better, in fact I fear this is only the start.
Deffo agree Maryz, putting her thoughts in words, even if they are never showwn to him would help the OP.
Anti I hope you find this thread helpful in identifying that your situation is very far from what is normally expected or acceptable.
Thinking of you
maryz, Hissy, lewiji and everyone else: thank you. Yes, I am finding it very helpful
Just not sure what to do next. The letter is a good idea.
I just don't think it's possible for him to be able to rethink things and acknowledge how unreasonable he's being, and how seriously damaging the situation is. He's not good at admitting he's wrong even about the small stuff.
I know it's been said before but I'm musing on just why this is so unpleasant. It's as if you started your sex life thinking that he was aroused by you, and that the dressing up just enhanced that. It's now becoming clear that it's not actually you who arouses him, rather than outfits. He could be fucking anyone in a basque and suspenders. That, for me, would destroy my self esteem, sexual confidence and desire.
Also, this is pure nosiness, but can someone tell me how the dressing up thing works? I've never had sex with anyone who has been fussed about underwear and dressing up, it's always been get naked ASAP. Do you dress up, stand about for him to admire/til he gets hard then take it off? Or do you leave it on during the sex? Don't you miss skin on skin?
Yes, this is basically a man with very fixed ideas about women. WOmen exist for men's benefit and a man is entitled to purchase and own one and train it to his satisfaction. To men like this an intelligent, independent woman is actually more desirable because it's more satisfying to crush her. It's about him proving to himself that women are inferior to men.
If he will find it difficult to understand your point of view and admit to being wrong, then I think you have to take a very considered look at the future of your relationship.
He will just chip away at your sense of self until you are a puppet dancing to his tune.
He's manipulating, and knows exactly what he wants. Because you're standing up to him and questioning him he is losing his grip.
Asking you to post on MN?? I wonder if he's trying to make you doubt your own judgement. This thread has stuck with me all day...hope you're ok OP
I would walk away and not even give the tosser the courtesy of explaining why. Objects can't speak after all!
keep most of it on, ehric, adjusting if necessary. sometimes items are torn off. hush. no-one heard me say that. it was all a long time ago.
Message deleted by MNHQ to protect the OP's identity.
We are together most of the time, work together, and he rarely goes out
That's a lot of time to spend together. Do you both have friends, and do you go out on your own?
Just to add - if I had a daughter, I would not want to expose her to a man with such nasty attitudes towards women. I'm not for a second implying that he's inappropriate with her, it's just that if he has these attitudes towards you and you accept them, it's bound to colour her ideas about relatioships.
Well, we've had a chat and I'm now even more
Around about Easter (so, what - four months ago?) he suggested all four of us go on holiday together. We've never done this before. I said "no way". Reasons being:
- When his daughter is around, he is like a coiled spring. He can't relax, or focus on anything or anyone other than her. Bit of a Disney dad. I can cope with this for 48 hours, but a whole week would be tough.
- The two girls don't like each other very much. Unfortunate, but they are both very different people, and no matter how much we'd like them to get on, we can't force it. They don't actually argue or anything, just do their own thing.
- He is convinced that I don't like her. This is not true. She's a nice girl: polite, intelligent, studious. However, there is a bit of tension in the house when she's here (absolutely not her fault), and I can find it quite difficult to get a conversation going with her. But I am friendly and welcoming and I keep trying.
So, anyway, DH says that he was so hurt by my rejection of the holiday idea (which he sees as a rejection of himself and his daughter), he has been unwilling to co-operate with me ever since about domestic tasks, and that the sex demands were "because I wanted you to do something for me".
He has had four months to tell me that he was upset about this, but hasn't. I really didn't know how badly he'd taken it. So he's now blaming his poor treatment of me on something I said months ago and didn't know the impact of (as if this justifies it somehow). I've said to him today that of course we can all go on holiday together if its so important to him, and I wish he'd told me before.
I have also told him (he's had plenty of time and opportunity now to RTT, but hasn't, so I guess he probably won't) that you lovely lot have helped me formulate my thoughts about his behaviour towards me re sex, and that the bullying must STOP immediately, that what he is doing is verging on emotional and sexual abuse, and that I insist on having jurisdiction over my own body. He has agreed. Don't know yet whether this means that it will stop, but we'll see.
He's also agreed to use a plate for his biscuits
And that the girls should be treated the with the same expectations.
But I am really perplexed now. Why didn't he say this before? When I asked him a couple of months ago what he was unhappy about, he responded with the remarks in my OP about dressing up and the relationship being over if I didn't. Why did he say that then, if it was actually the thing about the holiday? How do I know that what he is saying now is actually the truth?
Oh what a pile of shite. He was so stricken when you didn't want to go on holiday that he HAD to go on housework strike and pressure you about sex. This is his idea of how to communicate in a relationship? At best that sounds exhausting, at worst highly manipulative.
I really hope he means it about the horrible nagging re. dressing up for sex. If he doesn't stop that shit right now, please don't fall back into letting him get away with it. He does not get to treat you that way.
I very much doubt he hasn't read the thread.. He knew it was there and it would have killed his curiosity.
If he has to reach so far back into the past to find something to blame it all on you for then there are no words.
He could have at least owned his shit !
He's making excuses. And blaming you in a more round about way. He's still a twat
So, he finds it easier to threaten you, coerce you into something you don't feel comfortable with sexually and yet he can't tell you be was upset about your holiday plans?
How bloody odd and disturbing.
He is very immature and sou ds completely selfish - with a large measure of poor attitude towards women thrown in.
Sorry but he sounds like an arse.
Still think he's a twat.
I also think he's spouting a whole load of shite because he's a nob-jockey, wank-badgerish, dickwad.
Have my very first LTB. In fact LTFB.
That is just horrible and nasty.
For 4 months he's been keeping up ways to punish you for not wanting to go on holiday.
I'd find that quite sinister tbh.
He made that excuse up to deflect. And it worked because the conversation is suddenly about how you have hurt him rather than him being an abusive sex pest.
well ok. give him the benefit of the doubt - time will soon show whether that's the truth. we're not all perfect, and he clearly has a major communication problem if it's true, and it's not the way to conduct a healthy relationship.
i'd still be very because this excuse still doesn't really make it all ok does it?
Really? 4 months ago you hurt his feelings so he has been punishing you with housework and sexual bullying ever since? Can you see how ridiculous that sounds?
That's even worse; he is punishing you with housework and sex demands for a slight comment about a holiday? So if you hadn't pointed it out, this would continue for ever?
What he has to say about the holiday makes sense, on some level, and out of this context I would say should be treated sensitively. Blended families are tough.
But that fact that he is linking this to sexual bullying? to justify it? That he is offering this to you as an explanation is just - like others, words fail me. He withdrew cooperation because of a choice that you made, that he didn't like? This man does not know what a mutual and respectful relationship is.
Two good points above.
A) What has happened that you don't see his justfications as anything other than a load of bull?
B) How does it even get to the point where you both have a conversation where the demanding of sex and refusal to contribute to the household become an ok response to a disagreement in April??
So before, he was upset that you wouldn't dress up for sex and that was a rejection of him, he needed to feel wanted and appreciated in this way.
And now, when called on that, he says it's because you rejected his teenage DD by not going on holiday.
WTF? He's somehow equating your personal sexual relationship (and punishing you for perceived 'failings' in that regard domestically) with your relationship with your teenage stepdaughter.
That's twisted. I stand by what I said before - you had better be certain he is a good decent man because onscreen he is appearing to be the opposite.
It's one of two things:
1. The holiday grudge is a hastily made up, spurious excuse because he can't admit that the bullying, abusive misogynist is an ineffable part of his personality, or;
2. He has actually kept up nasty, bullying, abusive behaviour for 4 months instead of telling you he had a problem with something.
Neither option makes him seem a rosy prospect, does it?
He's making up excuses and it's a testament to YOUR reasonableness that he's had to cast his mind back FOUR MONTHS to think of something!
I had a boyfriend like this once. He was lovely to me at first, took me on holiday, drove me around in his car, even paid my gas bill when I was short.
But he wanted everything on his terms. He tried to influence me towards a career path I wasn't interested in, as he thought I should be in a corporate job like him. He bought me underwear that I didn't like, and didn't fit properly (well, it wasn't for me, was it?). He was into <ahem> bum stuff, and would nag all the time to do certain things that I was just not into.
On paper he was a lovely guy, but I never felt accepted for just being me. He was always trying to either improve me or stage manage me.
This man wasn't actually abusive (and I know abusive-that was my husband) but he was desperately immature and fearful of my wayward nature . I was always the girl who would be just perfect if only she could just change...
I don't think there is much you can do with a man like that to be honest. I am sorry, but you did move into this serious relationship very, very quickly for a woman with a child. I honestly think (especially having been to Hell and back with certain men) that it would take years for me to allow a man into mine and dc's life properly.
Think about chalking it up to experience and moving on.
You know those equations where if you take an x off one side you take it off the other too and you reduce the equation to it's simplest form?
Take all the money and the house work and the holidays etc away from both sides. they are not relevant.
You want sex with your husband when the mood takes you and him. He thinks he is entitled to sex with you whether you want it or not in the style he wants whether you want that or not.
That is the crux.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
He had to scramble to find an excuse for his behaviour and that is the best he can do.
This is not an open and honest conversation between equals. Sorry OP.
Oh dear Anti. He's really not very nice is he?
This must have been such a shock to read our reactions to his behaviour - and then to understand how much you've just bought into his way of thinking.
When I left my ex I was quite ashamed of myself to realise how much I had bought into such a dysfunctional relationship with a lying and deceitful man. I always looked for the good in him and just 'explained away' the difficult bits. Fortunately I summoned up my self esteem from where I'd buried it and knocked my 'I need to be in a relationship no matter what' feelings on the head.
I'm now happier, more confident and actually a nicer person since I got away from such a toxic man.
I'm not sure what the answer is for you - you've obviously invested a lot in him and if you work together that must also be hugely complicating? But he's essentially a shit isn't he? And still failing to take any responsibility for such appalling behaviour?
Wishing you a clear head and much strength for the future -and perhaps some more buckets of wine with friends to help you process this
All the reasons you didn't want to go holiday with him are still there.
However, because he has behaved atrociously you are now going on holiday with him.
I think the most charitable interpretation of his "explanation" is that he's a bit mad. Absolutely fucking bananas, actually. Insisting you have to dress up in tacky porn garb several times a week because you don't want to go on holiday with his DD?
I'd say it was typical controlling behaviour by a bully to drag up problems long past in order to justify current unacceptable behaviour from them.
It neatly makes their treatment of you your own fault, it shocks you so much that you have no reply leaving you completely wrong footed, it fills you with doubt about your own judgement, it means that in the future you will be more careful of going against his wishes.
He has read the Bully Tactics Handbook. In the future he will recall events of several years in the past in order to blame you and excuse himself.
I love sex. Sex is a really important part of our relationship. I love dressing up, we enjoy a bit of kink.
There is NO way my DH would ever treat me like you have described. He would never demand anything and never expect anything.
Sex can only ever be a pleasurable experience if both people are doing what they want to do. There is no place for threats, coercion or demands in a good sex life.
Your DH is being an arse and your relationship really doesn't sound balanced at all.
I think his 'explanation' actually makes the whole thing worse. Be very wary of a man who seeks to 'punish' you silently rather than discuss a problem with you. Be doubly wary of someone who would think that's an ok excuse for their behaviour whether that excuse is true or not.
That's a seriously fucked up attitude.
I'm not usually a one for immediately shouting LTB, but really? [baffled]
He demands you dress up for sex on numerous occasions because you said that your girls didn't get on well enough to go away together for a week?
There is tension in your house when his dd is there because you don't like her (has he considered that she doesn't, in the manner of teenagers everywhere, not like you much)?
You believe him?
He deserves an Oscar.
He is not someone who you can ever have a healthy relationship with.
I agree with gamerchick too - he totally RTFT. Sure he did.
And fwiw, I have no time people who can't just own their own shit...who have to make their bad behaviour someone else's doing.
Yes, I agree too - he's RTT and has been searching for something to pin his behaviour on so he can excuse himself for responsibility for his actions.
Sadly it just makes them that much worse.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
It's well thought out blame this time though, isn't it?
He knows you will feel bad about the holiday. He's hoping you will feel so bad about it you will excuse anything he might have done wrong.
If it is exhausting at two years, think how bad it is going to get before you finally crack.
He has a massive chip on his shoulder, thinks the world's against him, and everything is someone else's fault.
Well now we're getting to it. Putting your posts together, he's a classic bully, then, needing to feel like the big man at home.
He's left it a bit late, at 50, to grow the fuck up but that's what he needs to do.
Oh dear.... I wondered if he was going to turn out to be one of those
never my fault/why should I apologise/remember what YOU did to ME type of people.
You're on a hiding to nothing with this man. The more you post, the more he ticks the controlling relationship boxes.
Yes...he very deftly used something he knew you'd feel guilty about to blame it on didn't he?
How very cunning and manipulative of him indeed...and in the the mix, you have somehow agreed to a holiday you don't want too.
If you're already getting dressed up at the weekends, then he has no cause for complaint. It's not like you never do it. And if he doesn't want you to do it under duress, then why the hell is he putting pressure on you anyway?!
It sounds like what he might really be getting off on is putting demands on you - could he be resentful that you're devoting time to your job, your DD, the housework, etc, and feel like he should be higher up the priority list? (Not saying he's right if that's the case. Just trying to understand why the hell he'd have such a petulant attitude.)
OK this is what has happened. He's read the thread, felt angry that you and other people have identified his horrible attitude to you and has made up this bullshit. And in the confusion got something he wanted. Bingo!
His thinking about how you relate to another person in a relationship is so skewed that he thinks that saying " actually what I was doing was just punishing you for something that happened months ago" is a better interpretation of his behaviour than "I get off on making unreasonable demands of you sexually."
Were you previously in an abusive relationship? And if so did he know about it, or "rescue" you from it?
Me and my dH have discussed this. We think you should no longer but biscuits :D
He's grasping for a reason for this all to be your fault. A conversation 4 months ago is the best he can come up with ffs.
He's learnt a lesson from all this though. Act like an utter prick in one area and get you to back down on something that seems not as serious, just to keep the peace for everyone else.
He sounds like an arse.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
HAve you definitely said you will go on holiday with him and his DD? Or just that if you'd realise he was so upset about it then you would have agreed?
If you really don't want to go, then tell him you're onto him and you don't think much of his tactics.
If you haven't agreed to go, then sit tight and see what happens.
oh god, I haven't read the 13 pages but I'd open the door for him, say SEE YA to his back, and wish him good luck with the women who'll dress up for him
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
fucking hell, it just gets worse!
no, the holiday excuse is just bollocks, and he's pulled that out of the air to make you feel guilty and accept his crap.
in fact, it's made the whole situation make a turn for the sinister.
(waves to anti's DH!)
Trying to wriggle out of it aren't you, she is too good for you, I hope she kicks your bullyboy arse to the curb....
Cat - note he is not sorry that he threatened you with the end of your relationship if you didn't put out dressed like a whore; he blamed it on your opinions about the holiday.
He is not sorry and is probably reading every word so there is no need to let him know anything - he already does.
Agree with pp, very bloody sinister, harbouring a grudge and punishing you for four bloody months.... Twat LTB
I don't think you can ever have a healthy relationship with him.
You are only 40. But you are living the life of women several generations ago who felt they had to accept bullying relationships in return for being financially propped up.
Don't make the mistake of feeling that because you have been together two years or because you have married that you have invested too much here to leave.
"It sounds like what he might really be getting off on is putting demands on you -"
And yes - linking the relationship between your DD and his, / you and his DD and what you two do in bed is... inappropriate.
So what he's saying is, he has been pissed off with you and harbouring a grudge for four months, and so to pay you back, he's been sexually bullying you and threatening to leave if you don't give in to his demands. Does he actually think this hastily concocted excuse sounds better?
I'd have to LTB for his sheer idiocy.
This has made me cry some as my DH does the same thing. Oh dear.
Sunflower - are you ok?
Don't want to hijack, but I have a cupboard full of stockings and corsets that he's bought me that I've told him time and time again make me feel objectified and not at all sexy but if I don't at least once a week take the initiative (and it has to be without him asking) dress up then he becomes a passive aggressive arse. Humph.
Oh, OP I am so sorry. How awful.
I had a long term relationship that was a bit like this. He was superficially so loving, caring, considerate (would cook for me, make me a coffee, drive me where I needed to go, etc). But, he was completely selfish when it came to the more profound things that mattered. I was seduced by his thoughtfulness for several years......until we came to a turning point in the relationship that required some compromise on his part, and then - everything fell apart. His parting words included 'I would have stayed with you forever if you had only continued to let me have things on my own terms'. Ugh. i was a fool. I overlooked far too much for far too long. I justified his rotten behaviour by remembering his small gestures - those were far too easy, and really meant nothing.
So, my advice: look beneath the surface gestures. If all of his 'giving' is the easy stuff, with none of the true compromise and generosity that a healthy relationship requires, I'm afraid there isn't much future. And somehow blaming you for all of it is even worse.
Re-read the post by allalonenow at 19.12. There's wisdom there.
It's a bit scary seeing it written down and realising how twisted it all is, isn't it
I'm sorry Sunflower
Your update about your conversation caused my first ever gasp out-loud whilst on MN.
He's openly told you that he's manipulated, punished and abused you sexually and your response is that you will now go on holiday?! FFS, come on!
The line about him wanting you to do something for him stunned me. Honestly, why why why didn't you end the conversation right there and pack his bags?
So anytime in the last 4 months that you've dressed up at his suggestion, he's been literally getting off at the power over you. He has told you openly that he was using you and making you "do something for him". You were sexually satisfying him as a punishment. That is sick. I'm not exaggerating here OP, it's one of the sickest things I've read on here.
How is your skin not crawling knowing that he was climaxing because of his sense of power over you?!
Please leave this bastard! He is a really terrible man.
Sorry to hear that Sunflower. Have a good read through all the advise, there are some very wise people on here and it's all as valid for you as for the OP.
Today could be the day your life gets better. There's nothing like realising life doesn't have to be like this!
That's crap sunflower. You don't have to put up with it though.
I think both OP and Sunflower should start checking out their options, legally and financially, on how to get rid of these inadequate, unpleasant men. One of the key factors on getting rid is the realisation that they are not 'lovely', they are woman-hating losers. They have never done anything for you that wasn't either about performing like a Good Romantic Partner or intended as a trade-off that you weren't consulted over - 'I have made you a cup of tea, you are now obliged to suck my dick'/I have bought you a piece of jewellery that you didn't actually ask for, don't actually like and won't ever wear but I bought it, which means you are now completely obliged to let me fuck you up the arse.'
There is no way you can get around him on this.
He is abusive now. It's not overly obvious to you yet, but the signs are all there.
You can't control it and he won't stop. He may tone it down if he realises you're on to him but only while he can, and he will work around you to deflect your attention.
You do need to get out asap.
I believe you will grow to resent him and wonder what you ever saw in him, speaking from my own experience of passive aggressive emotional manipulators.
Anti, these must be very difficult things to read. Please let us know if you can how you are x
How can you come back from this OP, now that the scales have fallen from your eyes?
How will it be possible to love or respect this man?
How will you ever be able to dress up for his satisfaction again?
Your attitude to him has changed quite dramatically during the course of this thread.
OP. This man is a twat. A selfish, vile idiot.
You want to see the best in him. It's called sunk loss fallacy. You don't want to believe your judgement has been that off, to have chosen someone so crap.
And he is crap.
But your judgement wasn't necessarily off, because it's not always possible to know from the start, in a relationship.
But your judgement is sound NOW. You know, now, that he is not a nice person. Because of these essential factors.
Act on your judgement now. Stop trying to muffle it.
Anti, I too concur with the PPs. He hates women, and that means you!! Leave and live independently again, and it might just happen you meet a wonderful man who loves you for YOU. Your husband sounds absolutely revolting. Whereas you sound pretty wonderful.
That's the thing with abusive men - they are perfectly capable of behaving like nice, ordinary, loveable, loving men at the beginning of a relationship. They don't call you a cunt and punch you in the face on the first date - of course they don't, because they'd never get a second date and they might get arrested on the spot.
There are usually a few little indicators, fairly early on but there's a whole lot of cultural pressure on women to excuse these things and explain them away. And yes, nice people do sometimes behave in not-so-nice ways - they might turn up late, snap at you, not do something they promised to do, disagree with you about something important; the world is not divided into Abusers and Perfect People - but nice people are generaly sorry when they have behaved badly. They generally offer an explanation as well as an apology and they try not to do it again.
Yeah, abusers are 'sorry' too, but their apologies usually include self-justification and blaming their partners and then they go on and do the same thing again and again and again.
Your H linking of your refusal to go on holiday with him and his DD to the house work and demanding that you dress up for sex is not the logical and rational response of a mature adult. It is the response of someone who is emotionally immature. In his mind, he score-keeps the good and the bad. If you are "good" and do what he wants, then he is "good" in return. If you are "bad" then he punishes you, and it doesn't matter that the punishment doesn't have anything to do with the original 'transgression'. This is not a logical, rational or mature response to a loved one, and neither is it a good dynamic for a relationship. He has placed himself in the position as your 'master' and you are his 'subordinate', to punish or to reward as he sees fit.
Something which I only learned a short while ago is "I do not exist on earth to to live up to someone else expectations, my life belongs to me. Equally no one is here on earth to live up to my expectations". Your H is expecting you to live up to his expectations, and when you don't, he punishes you for it. Even worse, instead of discussing issues with you like and adult and coming to a workable solution, he keeps quiet about it and sets you a test to see if you "love him enough to do [this] for him". This is a horrible way to live and will result in much resentment of him and his demands.
The thing is, these little gestures like making cups of tea, glasses of wine, driving you where you want to go and so on, they're very easy.
Like walking the dog and taking it to the vets.
Or washing the beloved car.
You don't want to be on the same level as a favoured possession.
Please don't go on a holiday with him just because he tricked you into agreeing to it. He was basically saying his issue is more important than yours - "back to the wonderful subject of me!"
Don't tell him that you are on to him. He'll be reading the thread so he'll know but also any argument or explanation that you put to him, he will undermine and deflect.
I doubt that the dressing up ultimatum is anything to do with the holiday conversation four months ago. The holiday is simply an excuse he used to make everything your fault and turn himself into the wronged party.
Tell him you've decided your first instinct about the holiday was correct and you're not going on it. Tell him as soon as possible so he can't say it's already booked.
Then, consider some counselling to help you to tease out how you got here, to get the strength to leave and to gain the confidence to say you'll never be in such a relationship again. This cannot get better.
What SGB said. Times jillion!
OP, did the escalation in kinky requests start before or after the holiday incident 4 months ago?
If before then you have your answer.
If after, then that reduces the certainty of it being an after-the-fact excuse.
ManNetter it makes no difference. Even if the whiny porn-sex demands WERE related to the OP's holiday refusal, it's still a fucking mad way for him to behave.
But if, and that is a big if, there is some truth in the reasons, is it not worth talking it through.
For the record I think the OP has gone beyond the call of duty where her husband's demands are concerned. However, if there is disgruntlement on both a chat and a compromise should be attempted at least
I don't think women should be expected to "chat" to men who are using their sex lives to punish them for unspoken perceived transgressions; and I certainly don't see what there is to "compromise" on (perhaps OP should agree to let him bully her about sex she's too knackered for twice a month instead of four times?) I guess that's where you and I differ.
When someone tells you who they are LISTEN
Your shitty husband is telling you he's a petulant childish emotionally abusive manipulative bully who has a warped twisted view of a loving sexual relationship and has openly admitted using sex to punish you.
Ask any decent domestic violence org they will tell you he is an abuser.
Oh and he's still reading this thread.
I don't understand how you could stay in a relationship with someone who could never admit that they did something wrong. That sounds like the most exhausting, joyless task ever.
People have already covered the ltb angle, so I'll cover an alternative, which takes what he said at face value. I think you guys really need to sit down and lay your cards on the table. Stuff that needs to be addressed would be:
Communication. It is ridiculous that he has been holding something against you for four fucking months. This is utterly unacceptable and he needs to speak when he has something join his mind, not "punish" you for it.
His daughter; ask why he doesn't think you like her. Avoid getting insistent and dismissive. About what he says, but when he's finished, give a list of examples of you treating her well, or you guys getting along. You might want to point out that he always seems hyper stressed when she is visiting, and ask if he realized that.
The big one: him being annoyed about a holiday in no way justifies him bullying you and pressuring you into absolutely selfish requests which have no care about you or how you are feeling. That is manipulative and shitty, and if it happens again then you walk.
And really mean that last part.
But to be honest I'm just trying to be balanced. I have no idea why you would stay in this relationship which is already winding you up and making you feel like shit it after just two years!
At some level or another, using sex as a tool in a relashionship is commonplace.
Consciously or unconsciously.
That's not a justification and there are degrees-ie some situations marginal while other s are more extreme.
I can't say where the OP's fits on the scale without knowing the full picture.
And she is in the best position to decide that.
I think "if you won't have sex in exactly the way I want it at exactly the time I want it, whatever else is going on with you, then there is no point to us being married" has gone beyond using sex as a "tool". Unless you consider a steamroller a tool?
ABl- If the demands are being made by her dp simply because he's just a tosser then he deserves what's coming.
However, we now have new information regarding the 4 month old gripe. I've re read the op and she says the offending conversation was two months ago, correct me if I am wrong though.
I'd like to think that if my oh was being unreasonable and subsequently stated a reason, I would want to explore the situation.
Op, what a tricky situation you've found yourself in, and H, of you're reading this - stop with the chip on shoulder rubbish and look how you ate harming your relationship.
Whether you mean to or not, you are manipulating her and her love for you to make her do exactly what you want, whilst not giving a shit about her as an actual human. Spoiled and disgusting.
Op, I'd just let all this soak in a bit and see how you feel. It's quite a brutal way of opening your eyes, this thread.
So about 1/3 of your marriage with your H (couldn't bring myself to say 'D') he has spent it punishing you?!
If Mr Anti has RTT <waves> , he'll no doubt be monitoring phone usage.
I remember that part well. I walked on eggshell about my bloody phone!!
Anti hope you're okay lovey.
However, we now have new information regarding the 4 month old gripe. I've re read the op and she says the offending conversation was two months ago, correct me if I am wrong though.
If the bit about the 4 month gripe was even in any part true, how does it link in any way to dressing like like a whore, un begrudgingly, for sex, and threatening the end of the relationship if it doesn't happen whilst also stating that if it does happen it must be the OP's choice. That is some serious manipulation and headfuckery there. And all because of concerns about a holiday? That's not new information, that is either trying to give a reason for it, or just trying to fuck with the OP even more.
Everything it would seem - is the OP's fault, and even when it isn't, references are made that make it look again, like the OP's fault. And when she does decide to end this, that will also be her fault, and instead of getting away from an abusive manipulator, she will be accused of breaking up a happy home.
It's so fucked up, it can't really be ironed out as they aren't creases but the actual shape of the thing itself.
It seems you've joined Mumsnet just to post on this thread, ManNetter.
Would it be fair to assume that you have a vested, personal interest?
ManNetter, if dh gave me an explanation for something, of course I would want to explore that with him. unless the explanation made the original issue a thousand times worse.
In this case it has gone from dh making demands and objectifying his wife for no specific purpose, presumably due to selfishness, to actively choosing to use sex to "punish" his wife for a perceived slight.
The former is bad, the latter is horrific.
So where the explanation is worse than the original issues, no, no I would be less likely to want to work things through than before.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Sometimes what a person does is far more telling than what they say ManNetter. Taking the OP's DH at face value, he makes demands, expects them to be satisfied willingly, cares not about the feelings of the person he makes them of, and gives a slight which took place four months ago, that he hasn't communicated, as a reason. I know I would be looking at the actions and not be that trusting, ever again, of the words.
Sorry but I think the holiday reason is bollocks designed to make OP feel guilty.
Did he really only start dropping crumbs/being demanding about dressing up for sex a couple of months ago?
So before this he did his willing share of household stuffs and didn't let his DD make a mess for someone other than him to sort?
I imagine there are a number of little "grievances" the petty twunt has been nursing for ages. If it wasn't the holiday, he would have brought out some other "hurtful incident" that he's blown out of proportion. Some other little thing in which you didn't give in to his demands.
The next time you call him on some bad behaviour, he'll trot out another little "hurtful incident" that will have happened months ago, and he'll expect you to apologise for that.
Gaslighting, passive aggressive, manipulating... utter utter twunt.
OP, do you really want to live with someone that treats you with so little respect?
I've read your thread anti, and it could be me.
I got together with and married my exH in 14 months - we had been close at work for 2 years before this so I thought the quickness was fine.
He had a thing about me dressing up too - we had all the issues you describe (even down to a similar age gap - he was 11 years older than me).
He had a daughter who was treated to the disney dad thing.
He rarely did much around the house, especially DIY which desperately needed doing, but wouldn't pay someone to do it. I would do what I could (like painting the hall stairs and landing which then stood half done for more than 3 years while I waited for him to do the bits I couldn't reach).
He would bring up long forgotten slights that I had allegedly caused months later.
Please note he is my EXH.
It took me 7 years to pluck up the courage to leave him and realise that I was getting nothing out of this relationship. It was making me ill by this point and our sex life consisted of me lying there, hating him. While he groped me like a teenager.
He wanted me to dress up all the time but could not understand that my desire lay out of the bedroom, ruined by my resentment for no help with the children (we had a child together who he took little notice of - don't ask me why I thought he'd be a good dad!!) no help around the house, no effort to do even little things together. I used to say I would dress up nicely if he took me out for a meal etc but wasn't prepared to ruin my lovely clothes by doing the housework in them just so he could get off on it.
I cannot agree more with the answers on this thread. Get rid of him and meet someone you can enjoy great sex with. I have and have not looked back - except when I do, I can now see this relationship for what it was - abusive, gas lighting, bullying and entirely built on shitty foundations.
(He will make you feel like you're going mad. You will begin to question your every move, decision and words out of your mouth) THIS IS NOT NORMAL.
Gilbert: Yes I joined specifically to comment on this thread and no I do not have vested interest or any other motive.
Homebird8: You are correct, actions do speak louder than words but that cuts both ways. The OP will have to end the relationship as her OP can no longer be trusted. Otoh, if she stays, her actions tell her DH that he can continue to push the envelope in future. I dont think life and relationships are really that simple.
OP: "Though they might get on if they met". The implication is a bit unfair. All I've tried to do is see both sides of the argument.
Why this thread though? What is it about it that you found so compelling? Genuinely interested.
ManNetter you're right, it was unfair. I'm sorry. I'm just a bit cross.
I too am intrigued though, as to why you'd join this forum just to comment on my sordid situation. One of hundreds on here every day. What's your interest? Do I know you?
blueuggs I'm sorry you went through that. Thank you for posting though. It helps.
OP, my marriage broke up early last year and I'm with a lovely partner now but not without problems (more about that later...). But please do not feel like a failure if this marriage doesn't work out. I feel a certain pressure to make my current relationship work (and I hate to think how bad the pressure would be if I had married my partner...) because I 'failed' the first time even thought it was exH who left for OW. But because you have done the single parenting thing before successfully, you can do it again. Don't feel you have to depend on this man. Financially, I am better off with DH around but if my relationship doesn't work, I know that I can go back to single parenting tomorrow rather than remain beholden to a man for its financial 'benefits'.
We had some problems in the beginning with my DH 'finishing' when our relationship turned sexual. I suspected porn use but it took me months to make the connection that it was his alcohol use that was causing the 'problem'. If he drank too much, he couldn't come. I didn't like his drinking habits too and told him as much. I didn't like the fact that his drinking affected me in other ways too. He was not an abusive drunk but a sleepy one! He would fall asleep at 9 if he had a few drinks. I realised that that was no way to live. I did not want to spend the rest of my life like this. It took a while for him to realise that I wasn't against drinking per se (was happy for him to drink occasionally and the odd big night out for special occasions) but the effect it has on me and also that when he chooses to drink, he is choosing that over me and my feelings, which is selfish. We've now come to a compromise - he doesn't drink at home and to control the amount he drinks when doing it socially. I'm not sure if he can change the habits of a lifetime BUT he has definitely changed. The verdict is out... But I have made it very clear that I will no longer put up with that sort of selfish behaviour.
He desperately wants to marry me when both our divorces come through but honestly I doubt I ever will want to marry again... Maybe I will change my mind, who knows? Be strong OP. You deserve every ounce of respect in a relationship... Good luck!
Oh, and I've just realised (after 48 hours) that I've spelled my name wrong. It should be antediluvian (duh). One of my favourite words. Apologies to
my DH any pedants out there
Gilbert- I've been asking myself the same question. I cannot relate to kinky man's behaviour necessarily so it is not empathy.
I suppose on a human level, I do feel some sympathy. It sounds wishy washy but it is hard not to feel sympathy when someone gets a unanimous kicking from The Internet (and in real life too).
Does that make any sense?
Anti, I wish I knew you in real life so I could hug you and tell you in person that you really really are worth more than this.
I know you don't feel strong enough to leave yet-and that's understandable as your self worth has been manipulated by your H. Unfortunately his control extends out of the bedroom.
However, can you see that this situation is abuse?
Incase you are in any doubt: THIS IS ABUSE! This thread is about up it actual life!
You will leave eventually. I just hope he doesn't harm you too much in the meantime. I feel sad for you and your DD that this time is being wasted. Eventually she will move out and this time together will have been lost in your abusive relationship.
Then of course there are the issues she may take with her.
Be kind to yourself.
ManNetter-in what way is the OP getting a kicking here?!
Anti: No need to apologise. Your head must be all over the shop right now. I hope you work things out one way or another.
I really have no other interest and I am starting to wish I stayed away from commenting.
Please answer the question. In what way is the OP rather than the OP's H getting a unanimous kicking?
Nobody's picked up on manetter's assertion that sex is used in all relationships as a manipulative tool
scuse pun and I can't go along with that. I certainly have never done that though I have sometimes been so turned off by my partner being a shit that I don't fancy him. Recurrent crumbs would come into the 'shit' category as refusing to do something he knew was important to me because not doing it would create extra work for me.
Man is saying that OP's husband is getting the unanimous kicking...
I also do not at all agree with the assertion that sex is used as a manipulative tool in all relationships.
OP, your H's explanation makes sense to me, and explains a few things that I didn't get.
At the weekend the punishment doesn't work because you're enjoying it too, so he has to try and make you do certain things for his pleasure alone. The more coerced you are, the more he gets from it.
He really does have a masochistic streak to him I'm afraid. Good luck with that OP.
I think ManNetter thought the OP'sH was getting a unanimous kicking.
OP you absolutely hit the nail on the head with deflecting the blame on to me. It is the abusers handbook page 1. Nothing is ever their fault. Not really. <whiny voice> they had a bad childhood. They don't feel properly loved. They can't help it they are just tye way they are. And anyway you were mean to me. </whiny voice>
Liking something your partner does not like sexually is OK.
Coercing your partner into doing that is selfish and inconsiderate at best.
Using sex to punish someone for not cooperating is vile, degrading, disgusting and utterly abhorent. It is a most insidious form of control (which is why it is so often seen in warfare, conflict zones and totalitarian states as a weapon of subjugation. It has NO place in a loving relationship)
And sunflower I hope you escape. I would see a solicitor, contact WA and have an almighty bonfire of all that tat in the back garden.
Bruins sadistic/misogynistic surely?
Thanks for responding, ManNetter. I don't personally feel sympathy for him, I do think he has emotional issues and is a manipulative individual who would benefit from some straight talking from a third party.
However, he has reached the age of 50+ and this attitude is going to be well ingrained. I don't fancy the chances of an epiphany happening.
Sex is currency in all relationships, I agree. For some (many?) people it is an important or even necessary way to connect with their partner, and to feel wanted and secure. Among a plethora of other reasons.
And sex is negotiated in many relationships, of course it is.
But sex is intimate, it's allowing someone access to your body, giving them permission to touch you as they will. It is doing things for your partner's pleasure and satisfaction.
And so all negotiations have to be informed by respect for your partner's autonomy, ultimately.
This is the line that OP's husband has crossed. He is issuing threats and ultimatums - threatening to leave her! - bullying her into meeting his needs, with no regard for her own. And as ManNetter notes, this is when she is already engaging in a joint sex and fantasy life.
There is no 'reason' on earth - and my response to his hurt over the OP's rejection of the idea of a family holiday was that that is, seen on its own, valid, and needs to be explored - that would make that ok.
Compounding this, he is adding to her stress and exhaustion by - by his own admission - withdrawing cooperation and contributions to the household and refusing to do domestic labour. I mean, who the fuck does he think he is? These are not optional obligations. These are the backbone of a joint life together. They are not bloody bargaining tools in his horrible little enterprise of - what? - pushing OP so far that she cracks, and gives in?
OP's OP says that DH has been throwing his toys out of the pram because he doesn't like sex "under duress". Ha! you have got to be fucking kidding. It seems to be the opposite to me. OP has said that she enjoys the sex that they have, several times a week, in which his fantasies are catered to. But this isn't enough for him. I think duress and coercion are important to him, actually, and if he's honest with himself he'll admit it.
OP there will always be something beyond what you give that this man will want. He has said it himself. He has to be given something because he wants it, and for that reason alone.
Long term counselling for him, STAT, or LTB. Really.
Oh just seen what Bruins wrote, above. Sorry, bloody phone. Yes, I agree entirely.
It sounds wishy washy but it is hard not to feel sympathy when someone gets a unanimous kicking from The Internet (and in real life too).
How do you 'know' that the OP's
DH is getting a kicking in real life?
Yes, I meant her oh was getting a kicking not the op.
Springy- I think you may have embellished my comment by saying sex is used as a manipulative tool in all relationships.
My exact comment was
"At some level or another, using sex as a tool in a relashionship is commonplace.
Consciously or unconsciously."
And that was in direct response to a previous comment.
Gilbert- that's fair enough re the sympathy thing. I am trying hard not to get into a position where I am defending kinky man but if his excuse is genuine, it is worth giving a fair hearing by the op.
His approach and methods do seem to stink though
Funky- I meant that is no fun seeing someone getting a unanimous kicking in real life in general. I was not referring to her
But ManNetter - see mine and Bruins's comments above - if it were an 'approach' or 'method', that would be bad enough. But increasingly it seems that this is is not a means to an end, but a source of satisfaction in itself.
So..man tells wife to ask a forum what they think. Then man finds an excuse to try and rationalise his demands after unanimous declaration of abuse. Then when that fails; another man mysteriously comes on to defend him and advise the wifey to consider the explanation.
And gullible isn't in the dictionary, eh?
if his excuse is genuine, it is worth giving a fair hearing by the op.
If his excuse IS genuine, then it is worse than the actual problem in the first place.
That's the point!
I think we have a gf.
I hadn't even considered Bruin's point! You're right. The "punishment" wasn't working (why on earth would a woman enjoy sex after all? ) but a midweek pester when dw isn't interested? Bingo.
Root- I've read the comments. I have also been at pains to state that I do not agree with what the op's oh is up to.
He is playing you like a fiddle OP; the worse it is for you the better it is for him. With a mysterious man on here playing you even more, making you feel perhaps we are all wrong and giving you a little chink of 'perhaps this is an ok thing and you should consider this' just makes him even more satisfied.
It's a very sick game, the whole fucking thing.
At least you are just two years in, and can get the fuck out as soon as the penny drops.
But after the comments, which you don't address, you say
but if his excuse is genuine, it is worth giving a fair hearing by the op
So you clearly still think that this is OP's H's response to feeling aggrieved about something specific.
Funky- if I've got this right, you are insinuating that I have an agenda. If that is the case, I doubt that there is much I can say to make any difference to your opinion as I have stated my reasons in earlier comments
Root- it is possible to disagree with something and give it a fair hearing before coming to a final conclusion. That's what the OP has to decide for herself despite the opinions of the comments here. Mine included.
We are all working with limited information. It looks bad taken at face value but the op is closer to both sides of the story than any of us on here. Under those circumstances, i would prefer to reserve judgement (as a third party)
justiceofthePeas Of course you are correct. Getting your masochists and sadists muddled up is not to be recommended. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write..
Of course you can disagree and come to a different conclusion ManNetter (though don't tell yourself that that amounts to reserving judgement, because it doesn't). What you had to say just didn't really seem to follow the discussion.
There is absolutely no reason why any woman in a situation like OP's should feel obliged to invest yet more of her time and energy into listening to the creep, or trying to understand his "reasons" for being a bastard.
Women are not allowed to just react to bad behaviour from men by saying "get fucked." No: they HAVE to bend over backwards and contort themselves and put themselves through the wringer trying, trying, trying to find a way to make the truth staring them in the face go away, or trying to find a way to force themselves to live with it.
I think women should be taught to say "get fucked" a lot more readily than they often do.
Funky- if I've got this right, you are insinuating that I have an agenda. If that is the case, I doubt that there is much I can say to make any difference to your opinion as I have stated my reasons in earlier comments
I really couldn't give a flying fuck what you think to be honest. My only concern is for the OP.
Couldn't agree more vicmackie.
It's probably not just a male/female thing and suits all cases of abuse but it does seem to be the most common "polite" "real life" expectation when someone has been crapped on. Sometimes no further discussion is required and that's the best advice!
Thank you OP. How are you doing? I wonder if his treatment of you really has left you feeling like you 'deserve' this disrespectful treatment. Tit-for-tat. It always seems to come down to confidence, or lack thereof.
The idea of being alone being so terrifying plus never knowing if this is how most relationships are, behind closed doors.
Yes to the bonfire by the way. I'm having a purge tonight.
sunflower happy bonfire.
Well, just to add to this, I've just spoken to my teenage stepdaughter. Her dad, (my exH) has refused to buy her something she had asked him for because she has upset him. But he won't tell her what she has done!
She is guessing it's because she didn't send him a Father's Day card 6 weeks (??) ago but is only guessing. She doesn't have his address, so how can she??
And it starts again........
His "reason" is bollocks and a massive red herring. He felt he had the right to punish for a perceived transgression. Without disclosing any of this to his wife, who continues in the relationship utterly bemused as to why her husband is behaving in this way for almost half the time they have been married.
Also, needing stockings and suspenders in order to be able to get it up isn't "kinky". It's just sad.
Blueuggboots I am sorry that your stepdaughter is going through this particular issue with your ex, her father. Both my parents are like this, and it is neither rational or logical behaviour. The 'parent' (and I use that term loosely) sees personal relationships as a series of 'transactions', where if you 'did something wrong', they give themselves 'permission' to punish you. The problem is that the perceived 'wrong-doing' and the 'punishment' have nothing to do with each other, and neither does the 'wronged' talk to you about the issue.
The really negative thing about this sort of dynamic is that the child/person learns that the world does not work in a logical and rational way, that they must second-guess people's motivations and thoughts, because they grew up/live in such an irrational and illogical world. I grew up in a similarly dysfunctional fashion. For example in my late teens, my father stone-walled me for 5 months, only I never knew what I had done, and when I asked, I was given a dirty, dirty look of hatred, and silence! Just madness! Can you imagine what this does to a child's/person's psyche and self esteem?
Anti I hope that many posters are giving you food for thought, and I wish you the strength and clarity of mind to see your way through this situation, no matter what the outcome.
Anti - I have to say (hands up to being a pedant) that I did notice your name mis-spell but assumed it was deliberate! Go with that explanation.
Mannetter - can you not see, really, that the OP's H's "excuse" actually makes the situation that much worse? He's been trying emotional blackmail on her to get her to wear what he wants, do what he wants etc.; and then he comes out with this "excuse" that suggests he's been punishing her for 4 months without her ever having a clue that she'd done something "meriting" punishment? (Only in his mind, obviously - nothing she has done truly merits punishment of any kind!)
If you can't see that, then you have problems yourself. It's not about "being fair, seeing both sides, reaching compromise" - it's the fact that the man is emotionally manipulative, abusive and can't take responsibility for anything, nor communicate effectively as an adult. It isn't realistically possible to have a rational "chat" and reach compromise with someone like that - because that's not what they want at all. What they want is to see the other person grovel, apologise, agree to whatever they want and allow them to continue in their bullying autocratic ways without check.
The "excuse" was just that - something he dredged up that might have annoyed him at the time - but it absolutely does not become a valid reason for his behaviour at any point just because he says so.
Yes, I assumed it was a clever pun . That's how well you come across, so don't take any of his flim-flam!
You said, when he made his dressing up/relationship end announcement, that it hit you like a truck. LISTEN TO THAT RESPONSE. (Sorry to shout)
Thank you everyone for taking the time and effort to post and support me. I'm ok, we've talked a lot over the weekend, and he has aplogised profusely.
He says he'd now like to read the thread
in case it ends up in the Daily Mail , so I've asked for some of my posts to be deleted <taps fingers, come on HQ, please?> I'm sorry if that makes for a disjointed thread.
sunflowers, I hope you enjoyed your bonfire How utterly bloody brilliant.
blueuggs FFS! What an arse. I am sorry.
thumb and BOF Thank you for your votes of confidence. I seem to be losing the ability to spell as I get older. Is that normal?! <frets>
There's no point in deleting your posts they've all been quoted.
Why would you anyway?
They can delete the whole thread to protect your privacy, Anti.
You can always return under another name if you want to?
Well. Keep this thread, because you will be back in this place, metephorically speaking, again.
Do you know why? You said upthread, way upthread 'He is clever and funny and lovely.'
His behaviour (and pretty much everything else you have said about him, from his Disney Dad tendencies to his inability to have any insight into the effect of porn use on his sexual intelligence) demonstrates that he is none of those things at anything other than a completely superficial level.
Most particularly, no-one who could have behaved like this and then used the reasons he has to desperately try to wriggle out of it can ever, objectively, be described as a clever person.
He is deeply mediocre both intellectually and emotionally. And you don't seem to be, at all. Which is why you expect more, and therefore why you ended up here. And why you will be here again, when he stops feeling abashed.
Surely having to delete some posts before he reads it proves you're having to modify your behaviour to make him happy? Wrong on so many levels. Plus he's going to be suspicious about the ones you've asked to be deleted (which have been quoted so will still be in there as others have said)... its hardly going to make for a happy resolution!
I'm sorry but I think you've been duped. This isn't about the holiday. This is about control and manipulation and the fact you need to delete before you let him read something that was originally posted to be read by him shows how much control he has over you.
It's not a healthy relationship at all.
Bite the bullet, give him the thread as it stands.
You have been remarkably gracious throughout.
Cripes Anti - As a 50yo bloke some of what you wrote made me think you were my DP except I've never asked her to dress-up for sex. In fact, I suspect if I ever did she'd punch my lights out and rightly so. I find plenty of ways to "perv" (meant in the nicest possible way) over my DP without asking her to act like a prostitute!
I don't think i is reasonable to have some posts deleted, OP. You said at the top that it was he that wanted you to put the question to MN.
If you don't feel comfortable showing him the whole thread, then just copy it to a word document and delete the parts that you don't want him to see.
Then consider why you wanted them deleted.
I agree. It is unlikely to be your posts he will find unpalatable
sometimes the truth stings a bit
"But I am really perplexed now. Why didn't he say this before? When I asked him a couple of months ago what he was unhappy about, he responded with the remarks in my OP about dressing up and the relationship being over if I didn't. Why did he say that then, if it was actually the thing about the holiday? How do I know that what he is saying now is actually the truth? hmm"
he didn't say it then because
1) he hadn't realised why he was upset (it can take me a long time to see the cause of my own actions sometimes)
2) he hadn't had time to make it up before
Don't get your posts deleted. None are damning, but he'll assume the worst and use it as another reason to be cross at you
and use bad sex as a punishment for the next year
I don't think anything you said was awful about him - precisely the opposite. We can 'hear' your admiration for him and your investment in him and the relationship. I suppose my question would be 'does your OP really understand what he has done and is he capable of changing?' 50 years is a long time to learn how to emotionally blackmail and sexually bully and he's obviously learnt the skills successfully!
It's the hardest thing to change our patterns of behaviour and he's obviously got you where he wants you - until you posted here! Would he be willing to give up the power that he's taken and treat you with care, kindness, love and respect? I do wonder....... ?
Hello Anti's husband, I'm so pleased you are here. I would just like you to know that I think you are one of the most disgusting men I have EVER heard of. I mean, really, really vile.
It must be scary to you that so many strangers have figured you out and see you for the bully you are. I'd say it's time to move on as it won't be long until you wife becomes as disgusted as us and leaves.
You must be embarrassed about the holiday lie. That was a really cheap blow and so so stupid as all it did was show your hand and reveal your abuse in full. You really aren't as clever as you feel.
Anti, I wish you every happiness and I will continue to think of you. I look forward to your post saying you finally took control back and left!
"if his excuse is genuine, it is worth giving a fair hearing by the op."
No. If his excuse is genuine, then he deliberately engaged in sexual bullying of his wife of (at the time) less than a year as a form of punishment for her saying something he disagreed with (and, as it happens, did that in preference to actually talking to her about the original issue, which she had no idea was important to him.
If his excuse is genuine, then he would rather say "there is no point in our relationship continuing if you won't dress up for sex every single time" than "You know, dear, the joint holiday thing really is important to me".
If his excuse is genuine, then there are enough red flags here to supply a Morris dancing convention.
The only way in which this relationship is even potentially salvageable is if his excuse isn't genuine but is just a bullshitting attempt to rationalise his appalling behaviour after the fact. And even then someone who'd rather claim to have deliberately sexually bullied another person than admit he was wrong is not good relationship material.
there are enough red flags here to supply a Morris dancing convention
Can we please get MNHQ to give us a red flag emoticon??? Please???
And yes, OP, unfortunately I suspect that eventually, once the shine of his "new behaviour" wears off, you'll be back. (and of course, you'll be welcome, without judgement) This is the point where he realises he's stepped a bit far over the mark and pulls back his behaviour in order to lull you back into your normal routine, so he can then slowly move the boundaries again and be the one in power. It's pretty standard. Sorry.
The dragon looks a bit like a red flag
to a short sighted person with a iphone like me
Be vigilant, OP
Thanks Anti - only shared it to show he's moved onto his own daughter now he doesn't have me to gas light and bully.
A kind and heartfelt warning really.
Anti - I can appreciate you just want to accept an apology and go back to normal. But really, this is such twisted logic that you will never win.
I really really hope the penny does drop. Before you waste a good chuck of your life which could be spent in a healthy relationship with someone who loves and appreciates you for you.
If any of your posts are deleted he will just decide in his own head that you have said something that you shouldn't have done. Even when we all know that this is not the case,its text book behaviour.
He will accuse you of talking out of turn and more than likely lying as well and will make up in his own head things you have said so be prepared for a bit of brooding and meanness
I don't understand why he advised the OP to start this thread and then didn't look at it once, or ask how it was going.
Oh, I think he has probably read it...
Yup - it's another LTB from me. How dare he 'expect' you to dress up for him like some minx. And frankly, if you are putting out 2-3x a week then he should be bloody grateful!!! And the fact that he is contributing more financially has nothing to do with it. You are not a prostitute. I am gobsmacked that you have put up with it for this long. Also can't believe he wanted you to post about it; did he seriously think that people might support his view? Deluded doesn't come close. Good luck - you deserve more than this.
Strong equal relationships are not based on trading favours or owing each other anything. I think that says it all.
Of course he has read it!
and posted on it
Good luck op. I hope your dp's future behaviour matches his apology and you have no reason to return here.
You know best if he can handle reading the thread so that's for you to decide.
The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour, not a so-called apology that then blames the other party for atrocious behaviour they've suffered, for a bullshit, passive-aggressive reason.
Join the discussion
Please login first.