Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

STBXH wants to visit the children in the early mornings?

(136 Posts)
BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 04:38:46

My H and I are separating. My decision-he's against it and unwilling to go. He says he won't go till we've made all the access decisions.
He is looking for a room in a flatshare or he's been offered a room at his aunts. He won't rent a flat as he says he doesn't have the money. He hasn't an interest in having the children overnight-he's never done nights as in feeding DS or getting up with DD if she wakes or is unwell. He also finds it hard to get up early.
Anyway I am happy for him to see the children- 4 month old DS and 4 year old DD as much as he likes on the weekend to go swimming/park etc. But he wants to come to the house in some of the early weekday mornings to see them both sometime between 5-8am and also to do bedtime. He arrives home usually at bedtime-7.30pm and it always excites DD and I find it harder to get her to bed. If he's late and I get her to bed before he's back it's much smoother plus DS is usually asleep by 7pm.
Seeing the children at these times would be really disruptive to their routine and I think not in their best interests. I do want him to have as much access to them as he likes but not that doesn't benefit them. I'm also worried they would be confused if his visits are in my home apart from the fact it would be difficult for me also.
I've suggested him taking DD to school but he says he can't. Or coming home early to take them out after school but he also says he can't.
He wants me to "prove" that seeing them here and at those times isn't appropriate..he is very controlling.

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 04:50:43

Why? Is he normally up at 5am? Are they?

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 04:52:39

Sorry, I didn't read that properly first time. He is still living in the house and won't leave until contact times have been agreed? Is that right?

That is VERY controlling, if so.

Have you had any legal advice at all?

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 04:55:15

DS has reflux-doesn't sleep much..he's up a lot in the night and at 5 usually. DD is up at 7. H doesn't usually do anything in the mornings to help but has a few times got up with DS at 5 to give me a break. As in maybe 5 times in 4 months...

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 04:57:06

I feel like I'm close to him moving out and know if I go down a legal route he will dig his heels in even more plus it might be costly and take more time anyway. Hoping to be in a stronger position once he's out.

petalsandstars Mon 23-Jun-14 05:22:01

I wouldn't agree to this. Keep his contact out of the house. It's going to be another way to control and check up on you.

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 05:24:59

Is it just a verbal agreement between the two of you he wants?

I'd be tempted to consider saying yes just long enough to get him out I think but only you now how he will react. He sounds a bit of a bully.

On the other hand how long would the 5am thing last anyway?

I'd be concentrating on getting him out if he's controlling. If you have to agree that everyone will dress as zoo animals for contact to get that done....

Thumbwitch Mon 23-Jun-14 05:27:26

If he has troubles getting up in the morning as it is, then he's just being a wanker about doing early mornings, just for the sake of pissing you off. He's not going to manage it, is he!

If you think he won't manage it, then I'd agree to it to get him out - it won't be legally binding so long as you only verbally agree to it - and then when he reneges on it, you can use that whenever you do need to make it legal to show that he can't keep to what he says.

But I definitely wouldn't agree to the bedtime thing unless he can commit to being there a lot earlier than 7:30! How ridiculous. I'm sure he's just making it hard for you.

It might be more troublesome and cost more, but you need to get this legally thrashed out properly, and YOU need to set the contact times, not him. If he really wants to see his children, he'll make the effort - if he can't make the effort then he doesn't really want to see them (assuming that you make them reasonable to fit in with his work times of course)

stealthsquiggle Mon 23-Jun-14 05:29:12

So given the "prove it" stance (which is very controlling), if you were to agree to this it would mean that he would be in sole charge at those times - so if he thinks that is such a great idea, he should prove it whilst he is still in the house - taking sole charge from 5am to 8am, or at whatever time he thinks he would visit in the evenings. As in, you retreat to your bedroom and shut the door and leave him to it, come what may.

It's a bad idea, but maybe letting him try it now would show him that?

gingercat2 Mon 23-Jun-14 05:29:28

The way he is suggesting it is not good as it is keeping him an intimate part of your life. I have tried something similar and it didn't work out. It's important to separate your lives as much as possible. Make sure his access time is spent out of your house, you need to claim your space as your own and give him no place on it otherwise things get messy.

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 05:29:48

How about;

1)Verbally agree
2)He leaves
3)Change locks
4) Get legal advice, start mediation process?

Do you think you would qualify for legal aid under DV rues?

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 05:37:37

Yes that's a good idea. Hadn't thought to agree and then change once he's out. I am a bit worried he would manage it as we have split up before when DD was younger and he then used to come round for half hour now and again in the mornings. It's just totally for his benefit not the DCs so annoying.

Thumbwitch Mon 23-Jun-14 05:37:54

I actually think the times he has chosen has nothing to do with seeing the children and everything to do with checking up that you have no other man in your life. I doubt very much that he wants these times with the children by himself, eh? He's not going to give you a break so you can go out, is he?

Worth a thought. Definitely don't agree to anything like this in legally binding way.

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 05:40:31

I wouldn't normally advocate kicking of divorce negotiations by being underhand BTW but if he's being a contolling knob then you just need him out. Then you can negotiate from equal positions.

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 05:42:32

And I think Thumb is right (she usually is grin) - the reason for the weird hours is to check up on you isn't it?

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 05:54:00

I think it's more to keep a foot in the door kind of thing. No real danger of me having another man!!!

GrannyOnTheSchoolRun Mon 23-Jun-14 05:57:57

Thumb is spot on.

GrannyOnTheSchoolRun Mon 23-Jun-14 05:58:39

Stressed you may way/know there is not danger of you having another man but your husband will be thinking there is.

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 06:03:48

He will quite possibly be thinking that it is only his presence that is scaring the hordes of men off. Controlling and jealous men do tend to think that way.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 06:44:03

I'm up with DS every couple of hours..would be tricky to fit another man in! He just wants everything to remain the same ie being here whilst I do most of the work.
I'm wondering what to do with all his things also. He won't take much to a rented room. I've suggested a storage unit but he won't talk about it as he keeps saying he wants things to work out between us.
But I know from experience if I let him keep his things here not only is it annoying but he will be round in the evenings looking for some vital thing he can't find..

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 06:53:01

He really is reluctant isn't he?

meandcoffeeequalhappy Mon 23-Jun-14 06:54:07

Hlarious. It wouldn't last. Early morning interferes with sleep and evening interferes with social life. But no I would not allow it. Once he is out, your home is exactly that your home. He may have a job and feel he can't take them or pick them up from school, but that is just tough. Working parents tough it out, they take leave and use flexi time and manage even if it is in the way of office hours. He needs to get an appropriate home, and spend time with his children out of yours.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 07:04:05

Yes I totally agree but I fear he will take a long time to sort out an appropriate home for them to stay. He's never lived on his own-had a flat or house. Has always lived in rented rooms. He says he can't live alone?! I've also said exactly that to him about managing work re seeing the children and he's totally inflexible about it. Just says he needs to work to support us whilst also saying he'll pay the csa minimum!

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 07:09:18

He sounds like a sweetheart. CSA minimum eh? Nothing like true commitment to what's good for the DC to soften your heart hmm

Fideliney Mon 23-Jun-14 07:36:35

Do you have somewhere to put his stuff? Do you ever get access to his car? Could you drop it at his Aunts?

Do you think you are determined enough to stand up to him? He sounds like he could get quite wearing.

Thumbwitch Mon 23-Jun-14 07:39:57

If you don't want his stuff there, then bag/box it up, give him a time to remove it, and then say if he doesn't take it you will leave it out in the front garden and whatever happens to it then is his responsibility. It is not up to you to store his shit! It is up to him to find alternative accommodation that is either big enough for his shit, or he can find storage for it.

I understand that you have no time/inclination/thought of another man, but he will definitely think that it is on the cards, especially if you are the instigator of this split. He will refuse to believe that it is solely because he is a controlling knob that you've had enough of, because how could he possibly believe that? He can't!

If you're 100% sure that he's not coming back and you've had enough, then you need to get rid of him and all his stuff and leave him to sort himself out by himself. You have no need to take responsibility for him. You're not his mother.

ThinkIveBeenHacked Mon 23-Jun-14 07:44:25

Agree - say yes to anything to get him out.

Alternatively, tell him that once you both no longer live together, he will not be welcome in the home. As the dcs go to bed at seven, he can collect them to take them out at a set time and have them back for half six for bedtime prep (aww diddums he wont get there til 7.3, too late!) , and in the morning you will have them ready for half seven am and he can collect and take them somewhere in the hour he has.

Im assuming weekend access wont be happening in your home?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 23-Jun-14 07:46:46

Another one urging you to get him out a.s.a.p. and take it from there. See a solicitor about what is reasonable and fair access, make him a formal offer of a particular schedule and then let him contest it but from outside the home. Same with maintenance. Agree with others that he doesn't really want to see the DCs in the mornings, he just wants to keep tabs on who you're having breakfast with.... hmm

LumpySpacedPrincess Mon 23-Jun-14 07:51:49

Jut say yes and get him out, then deliver all his stuff to his new home. Start mediation, change the locks. Do what you need to get him out of your home.

Whocansay Mon 23-Jun-14 07:56:45

Agree and get him out of your house. Give yourself some breathing room.

Chances are, once he's gone, he won't really want these 5am starts.

And if he wants to 'look' for stuff, tell him you will find it and give it to him. Bag up all his stuff ready for him to take somewhere else.

And get legal advice.

Itsfab Mon 23-Jun-14 08:02:45

TMM the fact that he is trying to control you is the reason you should go down the legal route asap.

You can say why these times are not for the children's benefit. He can't but he will have to try in court..

If you don't want his stuff there, then bag/box it up, give him a time to remove it, and then say if he doesn't take it you will leave it out in the front garden and whatever happens to it then is his responsibility. It is not up to you to store his shit! It is up to him to find alternative accommodation that is either big enough for his shit, or he can find storage for it.

Please do not do this if you both own your home. As harsh as it may seem, until divorce and finances are sorted, if you are homeowners, he has much right to keep his items in the house as you do. Leaving it in a garden etc could land you in trouble.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 23-Jun-14 08:18:21

It 'could' land someone in trouble theoretically but, in practice, most people would not react to finding their stuff in a bag on the doorstep by calling in the police or lawyers. In fact, can you imagine how far eyes would be rolled in the average police station to the shout 'man complaining about finding property in box in garden'....?

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 08:20:56

He doesn't have a car. He uses mine which I want to stop now. Just had a row about that this morning. DDs grandma ( his mum)wants to take her to the circus near hers(2 hours drive away) and has suggested H take DD. But H won't go unless he uses my car. He could get coach or train but won't. He says the car is better for DD..isn't actually as she loves the train. Every decision is an argument.
Think I may end up taking his stuff to a storage unit that I'll pay for to at least stop him using that as an excuse to come round.

cozietoesie Mon 23-Jun-14 08:26:21

I only had to read the title of your thread and I was thinking what Thumbwitch said - eg early mornings to check/inhibit you if you have a man there overnight and 'bedtimes' to check that you're not about to go out on the town with a babysitter in place.

Oh Boy.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 08:27:13

As much as he's a total wanker I couldn't just throw out his stuff. I find it really hard to be like that and also I don't want to give him ammunition to fight me with.

It 'could' land someone in trouble theoretically but, in practice, most people would not react to finding their stuff in a bag on the doorstep by calling in the police or lawyers. In fact, can you imagine how far eyes would be rolled in the average police station to the shout 'man complaining about finding property in box in garden'

You may think so, but I know of incidents where it has ended up in court as part of the financial remedy and the judges certainly did not look kindly on it.

Make all access arrangements asap If you have not started divorce proceedings do so and asap.

His current proposal is nothing more than an attempt to further steamroller you around. He certainly does not have the childrens interests at heart here; you are all but possessions to him anyway.

If you have never read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft I would suggest you do so as well. In your case as well I would also be speaking to Womens Aid.

He has and will continue to make your life and in turn your childrens lives as difficult as possible; this is all "punishment" in his eyes for you having the gall to leave him. Even post divorce and separation he will continue to be as bloody minded as he is now; this is really all about power and control. These men do not give up their victims at all easily.

You will end up having to formalise absolutely everything on a legal footing; any informal arrangements will be ignored by him because this man just wants his own way. Would also say no to any mediation offered as well because it will be no point putting yourself through yet more anguish. It will turn into yet more attempts at point scoring on his part.

Thumbwitch Mon 23-Jun-14 08:56:45

Take him off your insurance for the car, then he won't be able to borrow it.

If you start off paying for storage for his stuff, then you will end up continuing to pay for it, plus if it's in your name and anything goes wrong, you could end up with trouble you don't need.
It really is up to him to relocate his stuff. You wouldn't be throwing it out, you would be packing it up for him to remove - if he then fails to remove it, it's his problem. Do you have a garden shed? Does your garden have separate access, i.e. not through the house? You could always bung it in there if he doesn't pick it up within a reasonable time frame.
But eventually you need to get rid of it. Take it to his mum's if nothing else will work!

LumpySpacedPrincess Mon 23-Jun-14 08:57:36

What is the situation with finances? Do you both own the house?

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 10:54:03

That's a good idea re insurance. No garden shed..his mum lives 2/3 hours away plus I couldn't fit all his stuff in one car load.
I own the house outright-no mortgage. Bought it on my own when we were separated before.
If I packed it all up and said for him to get it he wouldn't-he's the sort of person who would let it all be thrown out to make an idiotic point.

I own the house outright-no mortgage. Bought it on my own when we were separated before.

Unfortunately he will probably have a claim to some of your house as you are married.

Lucked Mon 23-Jun-14 11:07:24

Tbh I would agree to get him out and then say, actually this isn't working or do the " prove it" but bugger off when he is there. He clearly doesn't want the hard work of the kids on his own.

I would be going to the 24 hour supermarket at 5 am with a travel mug of hot tea and my kindle. Same with bedtime, I would pop to my mums and ask him to phone when they are sleeping and I can come home. I am incredible stubborn and couldn't cope with feeling controlled.

I think if he want to maintain good assess then he will need to do overnights. If this becomes the status quo neither of you will be able to move on. He also needs to find somewhere to live that he can bring them if the weather is awful. I would be advising him to move into his aunts in the short term so he can really determine what he needs in his new home.

Jux Mon 23-Jun-14 11:10:29

Please find a solicitor and start the divorce ball rolling. You need someone on your side who will fight on your behalf. It sounds to me that he has spent a long time grinding you down, and as a result you are likely to agree to things for a quiet life which you will later regret.

Paying to store is stuff - bad use of money
Paying for a solicitor - more expensive but money well spent

Do you have any trustworthy male friends that you could invite round? You have every right to have male visitors - and to have sex with an entire football team should you wish to. (I know you don't actually want a relationship with a man at present and it is generally not a good idea to embark on dating when you have just got rid of an abuser but it can be handy to demonstrate that, actually, you are not going to obey your abuser, and that his opinion of you is unimportant.
Definitely take legal advice on getting the man removed. As you own the house, you should be able to evict him by force if he won't leave, particularly if there has been abuse. In the meantime, just 'Yes, H' to everything - it's fine to lie to an abuser to get rid of him.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 12:59:02

He's just informed me he wants to set up a conference call telephone consultation with a child psychologist to sort out the access arrangements?!
He's actually found somewhere that offers this and is proceeding with getting it organised.

cozietoesie Mon 23-Jun-14 13:05:38

He's just informed me.....

He's actually found.....

He's proceeding.......

Get yourself to a solicitor directly. Find one this afternoon and make the appointment.

BrunoBrookesDinedAlone Mon 23-Jun-14 13:09:37

Go to a solicitor. Find out about the house first and foremost - how long have you been married? How long has he been back after you bought it? It's possible you might be able to get him out, but as far as I can see it's probably the 'marital home' and that makes it difficult.

You could mention the nonsense about the child psychologist to the solicitor and ask what the best wording is to give him a 'no of course not, don't be such a twat' reply.

Just ignore him. He is not in charge. Consult a solicitor straight away. Mediation and counselling are a bad idea when the man is abusive and controlling, so there is no need to waste your time with them.

Has there been any abuse that's needed police involvement in the past?

zipzap Mon 23-Jun-14 13:19:04

if his aunt would let him have a room would she let him have his stuff there if you just took it around - even if it took several trips and even if he wasn't staying there?

or how about one of those mini shed things that are a cross between a box and a storage place that can be locked and left outside - like this sort of thing - www.homebase.co.uk/en/homebaseuk/metal-tool-store---4x2ft-300965 - so that all his stuff is outside and whilst it is locked, I'm guessing it isn't in any way as waterproof as being inside. It would be cheaper than renting a storage unit for him, if he wanted access then he'd be at your house but at least in the garden, and it would be an incentive for him to move his stuff asap as he wouldn't want it in the lock box...

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 23-Jun-14 13:20:09

Definitely ignore this blatant attempt to drive the process and instead stay in control. You're no long at home to Mr Bossy Bastard. smile You certainly need a solicitor

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 13:27:09

Yes I imagine he's fishing around for someone with "authority" that he can convince to tell me to do what he wants.
Putting his stuff in the garden shed thing would be the same as storing here in the attic which I've thought of. But the point is he will use this as a way of coming here in the evenings and harrass me.
I don't think his aunt would let me come over-his family are very supportive of him not me as is usual I suppose. They wouldn't do anything he didn't want..

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 13:30:11

I've texted a friend who does family law and will hopefully get some legal advice from her. I can't afford a solicitor and the police haven't been involved so I probably wouldn't be eligible for legal aid. Plus I own my house and I think I've heard if you have any assets such as that you're not eligible. Which is daft-I'm hardly going to sell my home-make me and the kids homeless in order to get him out of it!

CalamitouslyWrong Mon 23-Jun-14 13:30:43

There is no way I would trust a 'conference call' with a 'child psychologist' he's found. It will almost certainly be someone he knows pretending to be neutral to force you into accepting some awful arrangement because it's 'best for the children' (probably involving you giving him the car whenever he has the children).

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 13:31:41

We've been married and him living here for 15 months. And I bought it 3 years ago.

ShergarAndSpies Mon 23-Jun-14 13:33:31

Do you have a friend who you trust who would have space for his stuff?

It would mean that he couldn't come and check up on you all the time and it would be much easier for the friend to say to him that he could only come for things he needed on a Tuesday evening between 6-8 for exmple.

I would be so happy to do this for a friend of mine if it meant she could extricate herself sooner from a STBXH like yours.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 13:33:40

I think it's legit-it's the Anna Freud centre. But he's convinced he can talk anyone round to his way of thinking. It would be difficult on the phone to explain the background to all this easily.

Noregrets78 Mon 23-Jun-14 13:36:44

Grief yours reminds me of mine. He 'wanted' to move out, and would, if only I would agree to his many varied demands...

Once you back down for an easy life it will only get worse. They really have the minds of children - ah it worked last time, i'll try it again!

Decide on your boundaries and stick to them. Arriving at 5am is unacceptable, even if your DC is usually awake then. It won't last forever, and on the odd time you actually get a lie in you don't want him turning up. It's not up to you to demonstrate that it's a problem - any reasonable person can see it's not OK.

Until he knows where he's living, it's hard to arrange things. But you can decide on some boundaries e.g.
- timings - not before a certain time, not after a certain time.
- if he wants outside those times, that would be overnight contact, for which he would have to have adequate accommodation
- access not to be in your home

This may mean he takes longer to move out. You have to be as withdrawn as possible, get on with your life - you can be separated even living under the same roof. Don't be desperate - if he can see this is what you want, he'll drag his heels even longer!

Quite true that he may have a claim on the house. Also was ditto with my situation. Once he's out - box up his stuff, make the house your own, put his stuff out of the way. If he wants anything, you can drop it round (along with the rest of the box, so it's gradually moving).

Noregrets78 Mon 23-Jun-14 13:39:26

And no he can't use your car! Another obvious boundary. it's your car, and your personal space. Ask for the key back, remove him from the insurance. If needs be, sell it and get another which only you have the key for.

He thinks you don't mean it, and will get back together.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 23-Jun-14 13:40:22

If the house was owned by you prior to the marriage and the marriage has been very short then his claim on the value of the property (if any) should be relatively low. Was the property owned by you outright or is it mortgaged?

Itsfab Mon 23-Jun-14 13:41:41

You do not have to do anything at all he tells you to do. End of. He is not the boss of you.

BeCool Mon 23-Jun-14 13:44:09

Once you get him out don't be tempted to let him back in. Doorstep him. I'm serious.

I use to let XP into flat for change overs etc and he behaved very badly - used it as a weapon against me, invaded my space etc. When I keep him on the doorstep and make him have all interaction with the DC out of the house, he behaves nicely towards me. When I do what I instinctively felt was the "right " thing to do - let him access flat with DC, let him come in to put them to bed etc, he felt entitled to try and assert some control and was abusive to me again.

So now he in permanently out in the 'cold' and tends to be a nicer person (to me at least)for it.

BeCool Mon 23-Jun-14 13:51:15

How fabulous his family are supportive of him - he can be their problem now.

Don't accommodate him, or store his stuff, or facilitate access to the DC in your house - he can store stuff at his family's places and see the children there too.

If I packed it all up and said for him to get it he wouldn't-he's the sort of person who would let it all be thrown out to make an idiotic point.

Gosh how are you not really tempted by this??? It would make ever such a wonderful point - XP to thick/stupid/stubborn/irresponsible to look after his own stuff. Boo-hoo!

This is another attempt to control you - give him a weeks notice (plenty of time to get his wonderful supportive family behind him) and put the stuff out.

Oh & change the locks asap.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Mon 23-Jun-14 13:56:35

I did the "contact visit in my home" thing where stbx came over and "visited" the DCs. It was like he never left. He used the opportunity to make everyone miserable and was aggressive and pushy and abusive and on many occasions I had to demand he leave early as he was being abusive. And the demands were never ending - he wanted me to organise everything, do the cooking for any meals he was present for, help with discipline, "chat" with him... all the while he was alternating between ignoring and shouting at the children (so basically he wanted it spent pretending like "happy families"). He spent a fair bit of time telling me what I should be doing and asking personal questions.

Trust me - don't do it. I spent half the week stressing over what he had done at the last visit (upsetting both me and the DCs) and the other half of the week stressing over what he might do the next visit. Honestly, it was like he had never left the house - still abusing us both verbally and physically. Still making demands and being unreasonable.

I had to put my foot down and say no. Months later he is STILL angry, demanding to know why he can't see the DCs in my home, and refusing contact with any other arrangement. It has been a real PITA.

Once you separate, you need to make it an actual separation. Anything else muddies the water IME. If he can't take all his stuff now, he can make arrangements to put it in storage at his expense. You are not responsible for it.

Alice: At least he's making enough of a cock of himself to look stupid if he takes you to court for contact. Contact is supposed to be about the DC benefitting from seeing their father, and a man who refuses to see them unless he can invade their mother's home and abuse her will not be seen as having their best interests at heart.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 14:15:21

I think basically what he's saying is unless I agree to his "conditions" such as seeing the DCs here he won't go.
I am realising I really need legal advice ASAP.
This is going to be a tough fight. Really hard as he's wearing me down every morning and evening and all weekend. And I'm up most of the night with refluxy baby so knackered.And when he's at work he sends me emails and calls. I have at least stopped taking his calls..

BrunoBrookesDinedAlone Mon 23-Jun-14 14:16:52

Oh and by the way, the simplest way to deflect any nonsense about child psychologists is to calmly say 'No, I don't think that's at all necessary, so I can't give permission for that I'm afraid. You're quite welcome to take that request to court and let a judge decide, if you really think it's the best way to sort access.'

But - right now, best to see a solicitor to get some guidance on how best to get him out first.

BrunoBrookesDinedAlone Mon 23-Jun-14 14:20:19

What I would do is go and see as many local solicitors as possible - those that do family law. Most do a free half hour. Use that free time to ask specific questions. For the first thing, it could be 'I bought house on x date, funds came solely from x account, house in my name, we were separated, got married x and he has been resident for x months. Can I legally make him leave, and if so how? will he have a claim to the house?

Ask 3 different solicitors that question and you will be a lot further forward, possibly for no cost.

BrunoBrookesDinedAlone Mon 23-Jun-14 14:23:41

You know, you could agree to absolutely anything, if he is threatening and harassing. And once he's out, all bets are off. You would simply say to a court (if it ever got that far, which it wouldn't) 'He was threatening me with continued harassment unless I agreed to give him access to the house at inappropriate times. I agreed under duress.' End of chat - you don't legally have to agree to contact inside your own home, under any circumstances!

And that's the reason it would never get to court. Here's what would happen: you agree. He leaves. You make sure that's watertight legally, change locks etc. You tell him you agreed under duress and you now refuse to have him in the house. He goes to a solicitor. Who tells him that there is no case to answer and he simply can't insist on being allowed into any house belonging to someone else for any purpose!

Jux Mon 23-Jun-14 14:50:57

So glad you've made the decision to get a solicitor. It is the only way. Do see as many as you can, take advantage of that free half hour (and some will overrun a bit too). Asks the questions Bruno suggested first and foremost.

fubbsy Mon 23-Jun-14 14:57:39

If he is hassling you via email, you don't need to keep reading his messages all the time.

You can set up a rule (or whatever it's called in your software) to send all his messages to a certain folder as soon as they are received. That way you don't see them sitting in your inbox. Then you can read them later when you have the time/space/stomach to do so. Or even better, don't read them at all and ask a supportive friend to read them later and tell you if there is anything that you need to know about.

Just an idea

BeCool Mon 23-Jun-14 16:28:47

You can agree to him coming at 5am on Tuesdays and Thursdays - he would just come up with some other condition.

Keep repeating to yourself OP that what HE wants doesn't matter.

Focus on what YOU want now, and what your DC NEED.

Thumbwitch Mon 23-Jun-14 18:55:54

I know this is a bit pointless now but why on earth did you take him back the first time after you separated? He just thinks now that if he wears you down enough that you'll take him back again, doesn't he. And that's why he's being such a PITA - to grind you down.

The "child psychologist" thing - WTAF is that about?! And you can just say "No, that doesn't work for me" or refuse to participate. And refuse to let the children participate (I still don't see what it's for). He can't force you to do it.

You do need legal advice, pronto. Start proceedings against him as soon as you can because he's not going to actually agree to anything in an amicable fashion.

BelleBoyd Mon 23-Jun-14 20:38:16

That's a legitimate question why did I take him back. There are several reasons. The main one was I knew that later on down the line if I didn't I would question myself and ask what if I just had taken him back and we could have been a happy family and DD have a resident father. I knew I'd always have that niggling me. I felt it was worth trying. He was making an effort when we were separated-getting help for his addiction issues etc and seemed stable.
I also found tbh being a single mum hard as it is and wanted to have a sibling for her which I now think was horribly selfish of me.
I knew it was a long shot. I knew this situation was a real possibility.
But having said that at least now I know it would/can never work out.
Also he really wouldn't let up on trying to get back together and I did think at times it would be easier to manage him in a relationship setting. It isn't.

eggnut Mon 23-Jun-14 21:04:48

Stressed, I don't think you have to justify your previous decisions to MN. I know there is a statistic that it takes multiple tries for most abuse victims to leave their abusers. The important thing is focusing on moving forward and getting rid of him for good!

Glad you are going to talk to a solicitor. I know it is horrible having him working on grinding you down day and night--you will feel so much better when he is finally out of the house!

Thumbwitch Tue 24-Jun-14 04:29:35

Thanks for answering, Stressed, that's good of you. I understand completely about "making sure".

You need to make this separation as different as possible from the last time then, so that he gets the idea that this time it actually is final. So even though some of it might go against your character, and against the grain, go as hardline as you can so that he gets the message.

Good luck with the solicitor.

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 06:29:59

I've just done the legal aid calculator and as I own my house I'm not eligible. There's no way I can afford one. I guess I could get my free half hour but I think it'll take more than that.
Another evening last night of being told how ill I am and am damaging the children..

Fideliney Tue 24-Jun-14 06:57:51

Will you be undertaking mediation as part of the divorce?

I can't imagine a good mediator letting him get away with much of this.

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 07:05:02

That's just it-I can't afford a solicitor to start divorce proceedings. He will contest and it would be messy and expensive. I'm not working right now-have a 4 month old DS and when I was I had a low income.
I can't see what I can do without the money to pay for the solicitor.
I'm guessing he knows all that. I'm so worried I'll never persuade him to leave.

Fideliney Tue 24-Jun-14 07:18:51

I suppose I was wondering out loud if you could DIY.

The divorce bit itself is quite straightforward to DIY, in fact, and not too expensive.

It is the financial settlement and arrangements for the DC part that is complex but you'd be expected to mediate anyway so I was musing on whether you could make a start without a solicitor.

Sorry. I really am just thinking out loud. The Legal Aid 'reforms' are ludicrous. Maybe it is worth looking up your local mediation service to see how they work what they offer etc? Maybe mediation is worth a bash, regardless of divorce proceedings?

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 07:40:19

He would contest a divorce from the start. Makes DIY difficult.
I'm thinking today of saying I will go along with any of his conditions if he will move out..what else can I do?
I can't live like this.

matwork Tue 24-Jun-14 07:40:35

Do you have family who could help you out op? Either financially or practically?

Fideliney Tue 24-Jun-14 07:44:27

You need to get him out of the house ASAP by the sound of it.

He sounds droney. He is going to wear you down.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Tue 24-Jun-14 07:48:46

Stressed Sending you a PM with some info.

Fideliney Tue 24-Jun-14 07:52:06

It will get easier once he realises you are serious. It is a rare person who is still contesting a divorce a few years post-separation. You just need to get through this tough bit.

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 07:58:48

You're not kidding. It's really getting to me now. After a whole night of him insisting he had to see the children in the mornings to "help" because I can't cope apparently he is now going to work after having shower etc and not spending any time with the children. Whilst I'm up at 4 with the baby, made DDs breakfast and packed lunch, cleaned bedrooms and will now have to do the bathroom after him.
Sorry ranting.

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 07:59:38

Yes I just need to figure out how to get him to leave.

dollius Tue 24-Jun-14 08:02:09

Don't most solicitors agree to take their payment out of your final settlement? Might mean having to sell the house and buy something much smaller to live in with DC, but I would imagine you would be happy to live in a cardboard box if you could be free of this tosser?

Fideliney Tue 24-Jun-14 08:02:15

Rant away.

But yes - focus on the issue of him leaving. Don't try to solve the whole thing until that's done. You don't have the headspace, for one thing flowers

Thumbwitch Tue 24-Jun-14 08:14:10

Did you say you owned the house outright? No mortgage? because you could take out a loan using the house as surety, although of course you would need to be able to make the repayments on it.

You'll find a way - and I'd suggest you stop doing stuff for him in the meantime. No cooking for him, no cleaning for him, no washing etc. Make it very clear that he is not welcome, and that you do not want him there.

PolyesterBride Tue 24-Jun-14 08:14:59

Can you get his stuff Moved to a storage locker, pay for one month, send him the key at his aunts and tell him that if he doesn't pick it up, the storage company will dispose of it. After giving him plenty of opportunity to come and pick it up. Thats not being bitchy - that's perfectly reasonable.

As for the contact, I think you should agree, to get him out, and then say you've been thinking and contact would be better away from the home. In the meatime, change locks on house and car. Just protect yourself.

If it's the Anna Freud centre, I would imagine they'd be very professional and reasonable and would support good decisions for the kids.

LisaMed Tue 24-Jun-14 08:21:15

You do not need a solicitor to apply for divorce. You can actually call into the local county court and pick up the forms, fill them in and return them. There is a fee but you may be able to get that waived if you are on certain benefits or a low income. I don't know the rules but it has to be worth asking.

As for a contested divorce, years ago I worked in the county court and I worked there for over a decade. I never, ever saw a successfully contested divorce. If your stbx takes legal advice then a solicitor will tell him it will cost him a fortune and will be unsuccessful. If someone doesn't want to be married then nothing can keep them there. If your stbx does contest it, he will have to pay all the legal fees and court fees. Always, always, always ask for him to pay your costs at any hearing.

I suggest that you go over to the legal board on here and check about grounds. You will certainly need to get advice for the financials but for the first bits you can scrape by. The only thing you may like to get checked by someone is the grounds for divorce. If he is determined to spend a fortune contesting the divorce then they are going to be the target.

Another route you may like to take is to go for a legal separation. I don't know much on that, but if you can prove you have been separated for five years then your stbx will have no grounds at all to contest a divorce.

I hope that is helpful. What I also suggest is that you keep repeating to yourself, 'it doesn't matter what he thinks, it doesn't matter what he thinks, it doesn't matter what he thinks..' because it doesn't. tbh you could change the locks, refuse to admit him without a court order and refuse to allow access without a court order. Whether you feel strong enough to do that is another matter. Good luck.

Sister77 Tue 24-Jun-14 08:29:02

If the house is I'm your name, could you just change the locks op?

LisaMed Tue 24-Jun-14 08:35:15

Sister77 there are some funny rules about occupancy when people are married. The police don't always understand the rules either. What Stressed could do is change the locks, call the police at any attempt to kick off and if he calls the police insist that it is a civil matter and he will need a court order before she lets him in.

The hardest bit about that is thinking that it is possible. When you are at the sharp end like Stressed it is a lot easier said than done. To you and me Stressed's stbx could say what he liked and we could just laugh. Stressed has been under the abuse and it is a lot harder for her.

Stressed I would not do a telephone conference with anyone your stbx set up. Promise him you will consider it after he moves out, then forget about it. Good luck.

restandpeace Tue 24-Jun-14 08:38:34

Tell him to go fuck himself

Sister77 Tue 24-Jun-14 08:38:41

Thanks lisamed, it's tough there seems to be so much ambiguity around these issues!

LisaMed Tue 24-Jun-14 08:44:52

Sister77 the rules are really tough to work out. If you are married to someone, even if you are not on the deeds, you have certain rights to the marital home. It's protected a lot of vulnerable women but it's working against Stressed here.

Stressed if you have been married for a short time and get the divorce in quick you have a chance you will keep the house. If the marriage drags on your stbx will have a greater chance of making a claim on the house. He may be hanging on for that.

the link for a legal separation on the government website is here. Remember if you have been separated for five years then stbx will have no grounds to contest divorce.

Another point, you can start the separation now - no cooking, washing, cleaning etc for stbx. You are living separate lives under the same roof. Keep a record in a safe place. Take care. He is going to be vile for the short term, but the long term goal is worth it for your children.

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 09:00:11

That's an interesting thought-to start divorce proceedings and hope he can't contest. Hesitant about that with no legal representation and I'd have to do that with him living here.. He may well be able to borrow money to contest I don't know.
I can easily sight unreasonable behaviour.
I'm not ready to change locks etc yet. He would go into overdrive with the bullying, harassment etc and I've got so much on my plate protecting the DCs from this crazy situation as is.
I'm going to email him today and agree to all his terms if and when he moves out. Then I'll change the locks and go from there..

LisaMed Tue 24-Jun-14 09:19:50

Stressed I'd make sure the date of separation is really well documented. You can be legally separated for eg benefits and under the same roof but you have to be incredibly clear about it. Tough to do under the same roof as an idiot like stbx.

Sending hugs, good wishes and I suggest that you keep posting for those more knowledgeable and as a record. Good luck!

BelleBoyd Tue 24-Jun-14 10:40:23

Right I've had some legal advice that I can apply for an occupation order. And also that access arrangements are to be proposed by me with him having to go to court if he won't agree.
I'm going to tell him that's what I can do and see if he backs down.

Thumbwitch Tue 24-Jun-14 10:47:23

Excellent! Good luck - hope he backs down (not sure he will though sad )

NettleTea Tue 24-Jun-14 10:56:12

would just say not to agree to anything you dont actually want in writing - just verbally. That way there is no record. You dont want him pulling up an old email of yours to 'prove' you agreed to it

scallopsrgreat Tue 24-Jun-14 10:58:48

Stressed, I think a two-prong attack would be good. Yes start divorce proceedings but also make life uncomfortable for him living at home. As someone suggested immediately stop doing things for him like cooking, cleaning and washing. No cups of tea etc. Announce that you will be going out at certain times and leave the children with him. Even if you just go to a café and sit and read a book.

By the sounds of it he isn't going to make it easy no matter what you do so you need to gird your loins and get on with it whether he is with the programme or not!

scallopsrgreat Tue 24-Jun-14 11:01:03

Sorry Stressed I missed your post at 10:40.

That sounds good. A way forward at this stage anyway! Agree with NettleTea, don't agree to anything in writing at this stage, unless it is very much in your favour!

You have a good chance of getting an occupation order, I would think. Some women have been able to get abusive men forcibly removed from the family home even when the home was in the man's name. The fact that the house is yours and he is not paying towards it will help.
Good luck.

MsPavlichenko Tue 24-Jun-14 13:24:44

I wouldn't let him know your plans in advance. I know that you are hoping that placating him will lead to him being more reasonable, but it rarely, if ever, does with controlling men.

From my own experience, I know how difficult it is, and that you will worry that you will somehow make things worse. By taking control of the situation, and letting him know that you won't be manipulated anymore you will make things so much better for you and your DC. You will be amazed how much easier it will be with him out of your house, and your head. You'll then be able to decide the best way forward re the DC etc without his constant bullying.

Jux Wed 25-Jun-14 08:38:31

Keep your cards very close to your chest, Stressed. Abusive men tend to take badly to their victims becoming independent - even a tiny bit. Don't tell him what you're going to do as he will find some way to retaliate if you do.

Now you know you can get an injunction, do it. Keep a note of everything he does and says, with dates (and times if you can). Keep a paper trail, as they are often useful in Court. With luck you won't need it, but it's worth doing. Keep it in a safe place. Try to remember as much of what has happened in the past as you can and write that down with approximate dates too. Go back as far as you can.

Things are moving dorward for you now, and will gather momentum and become easier as you go along. Have faith in yourself.

BelleBoyd Thu 26-Jun-14 13:59:12

Not sure if anyone's still watching this thread. But I've a bit of a dilemma. My H wants to take DD to his mums ( out of town ) for an overnight stay and bring her back the next day. Should I allow this? What would the SS think of this? I'm just worried that I need to be seen as protecting my children which of course is my first priority.
I'm sure DD would be fine but what if she did have an accident, got lost etc? That could escalate our case to a CPP I imagine straight away. Am I being paranoid?

GingerBlondecat Thu 26-Jun-14 15:22:11

Hell No, dont let him take her without you having a full custody order in place.

Without that he can with hold her until you cave to his demands, and not a thing you can do about it. its not kidnapping because of no order in place, and he is currently equal parent

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Thu 26-Jun-14 15:27:13

No, I wouldn't let him. What's to stop him from taking her to a dodgy child psychologist while he has her and drumming up some false info, as he's already floated the idea of a child psych eval.

Butterflyspring Thu 26-Jun-14 16:09:11

no he must not take her under any circumstances. I still think you need to report him to the police and then you can get legal aid. You nee to speak to HV, GP and anyone else too to get a paper trail established.

MsPavlichenko Thu 26-Jun-14 17:30:51

Agree with others, say No. It is another opportunity to control and manipulate you via his DC. You are not being paranoid.

AnyFucker Thu 26-Jun-14 17:44:06

Don't back down on anything

If you do, on the smallest thing, he will see it as a chink to exploit

he simply wants to continue to control you, via the children, as that is one of the few pathways he has left

AnyFucker Thu 26-Jun-14 17:45:23

if he decides to play silly buggers and hold onto her the police will unfortunately have their hands tied under present parenting arrangements

you would be very foolish to do this

Jux Thu 26-Jun-14 17:52:04

Keep saying no to him. Do not give an inch.

Are you still cooking, cleaning, washing, ironing etc for him? Please don't.

Once you've reported him this will all be a lot easier.

I think you need to get legal action started fast so that he can't take her away and keep her. At the moment he might just do it anyway.

BelleBoyd Thu 26-Jun-14 20:11:49

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have any desire to take DD for any amount of time even to spite/control me. Don't think he has it in him..
The overnight trip is his mums idea. She has organised it with him and not consulted me. His mum is visiting the kids on Monday and I'm going to show her the SS assesment.
I've left a message with the SW and will run it by them as well as informing them I've received legal advice and am waiting for the injunction forms.
The latest from H is that he will reluctantly agree to move out if I agree to his conditions-a telephone consultation with a child pschycologist, couples counselling with a commitment from me to try and get back together and his access proposals.
I'm wondering whether to verbally agree to these and then once he's out change the locks and proceed from there. I'm thinking this might be quicker than an occupation order.

Itsfab Thu 26-Jun-14 20:33:46

"Don't think he has it in him."

There are too many threads on here to read which should tell you this is a dangerous thought to have.

Itsfab Thu 26-Jun-14 20:34:53

Maybe he will secretly record you agreeing to all his demands and then you will be stuck.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Thu 26-Jun-14 20:42:32

he will reluctantly agree to move out if I agree to his conditions-a telephone consultation with a child pschycologist, couples counselling with a commitment from me to try and get back together and his access proposals

seriously? the man is a nut job! have you gotten legal advice on this particular tidbit?

The first thing anyone ever says in these situations is "I never thought he'd do that.."

You don't have to agree to any of these things, and he can still be forced to move out.

Certainly, no competent couples counsellor would take you and him on: couples counselling doesn't work when there is abuse and is a really bad idea.

However, it probably would be quicker to say Yes, dear and change the locks. Because, as said upthread, an agreement made under duress is not binding anyway. Mind you, unless you fear physical violence, wouldn't it be satisfying just to say to him 'There is no way we are getting back together, you inadequate little prick. Get out of my house.!'

AnyFucker Thu 26-Jun-14 21:22:12

You are being foolish

You are still trying to "manage" him

He will have the last laugh, because he isn't a decent person and he has no qualms about using dirty behaviour to get what he wants

You are likely to regret not using the power of the law and the experience of professionals to support you

Jux Thu 26-Jun-14 22:52:36

Phone your insurers tomorrow and take him off the insurance so he can't drive your car. Get the occupation order forms even if it means you have to go and pick them up yourself, rather than waiting for the post.

You don't sound like you're taking this very seriously, but you don't have to read too many threads here to realise that controlling twats have no bottom line and the most dangerous time is when the bullied partner is trying to end the relationship.

You can't see him taking dd and not bringing her back (and therefore hanging onto your car too?) and you think we are exaggerating as we don't know you or him in rl. We don't need to because a lot of us have read thread after thread after thread over years and years, and have seen the pattern of behaviour too many times.

Do you really want to take the risk that this man, who has hardly behaved normally so far (bullying you and harrassment? setting unreasonable and impractical access conditions before agreeing to leave your house? forcing you to promise to keep trying when he knows you don't want to?) will behave like a normal, well-balanced person in the future? Why on earth would he?

For heaven's sake, protect yourself. Stop treating him like he's rational and reasonable. He isn't.

AcrossthePond55 Thu 26-Jun-14 23:25:53

Sounds like a lovely chap. I'd tell him whatever he wanted to hear to get him out. As long as it's not in writing, there's nothing he can do.

As for his stuff, once he's gone I'd bag it up nicely and drop it off at auntie's house when he's not there.

If you don't, he's just going to keep making up more stuff that has to be decided before he'll leave. Sounds like a form of blackmail to me.

BelleBoyd Fri 27-Jun-14 09:14:37

Just spoken to SW and she says she's happy for him to take DD to his mums for a visit and that he's fine to have visitation in the home if I'm ok with it. She suggested my mum being here when he visits which isn't workable to ask my mum over every time..
I'm surprised she's said this.
She said her only concern is us having arguments in front of DD which effectively means when DD is present I have to go along with whatever he does/says to avoid argument.

Butterflyspring Fri 27-Jun-14 09:44:28

Bloody hell - I think they are totally wrong. Nobody would condone access in your home - especially when his behaviour is so abusive. You going to contact Women's Aid and see a solicitor now?

Lucked Fri 27-Jun-14 09:48:51

She may be fine with it from the children's safety point of view but she isn't taking into consideration your health and needs. Remember she did say if it's what you want, implies to me she is also okay with you telling him he can't have access to your home.

Where is he going when he goes?

I think what the social worker is telling you is that your child is not necessarily at risk but that you do not have to comply with this man, either.
You need to stop caring what he thinks. He is your enemy. He is ludicrous as well as unpleasant. He has no power over you.

Honestly, please believe he has no power unless you give him any. You own the house. You don't need his permission or his co-operation to divorce him and keep him at a safe and comfortable distance. Get that occupation order and have him removed. Set suitable conditions for access that benefit the children and you.
He is the least important person in the family. Start treating him that way.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Fri 27-Jun-14 11:34:29

Odd information from the SW. When I spoke to SS, she said that in an abusive situation, it's more appropriate to have the contact either in a public place or at a contact centre. That's what they (and the police domestic abuse person) have suggested to me.

AcrossthePond55 Fri 27-Jun-14 14:06:16

I don't think the SW means that you must go along with him. I think she just means that you shouldn't argue in front of children, which is correct. It could mean that you must just say 'We aren't discussing this now' when he starts in.

Again, you need to say whatever it takes to get him the hell gone! Tell him you'll paint purple polka-dots on your bum if it gets him to leave. You can do whatever you like after he's gone.

I think this man has you 'bullied' into a corner and you're so used to 'not rocking the boat' that it doesn't occur to you just how much power you have.

Hell's bells, get a locksmith on standby & next time he leaves for a few hours get the locks changed.

BranchingOut Fri 27-Jun-14 14:24:20

I think a contact centre could be a good idea until he gets suitable accommodation lined up.

I think it would be very unwise to let him take DD to his mum. Please be careful. Or why not all go together - even if you don't particularly want to, it might be safest to do so.

The SW has answered the question from the point of view of 'will the child come to harm', not from a separation/divorce point of view.

BranchingOut Fri 27-Jun-14 14:24:50

Also, while taking him off the insurance might be a good idea - is there a risk that he might still try to drive the car anyway?

Itsfab Fri 27-Jun-14 17:18:02

shock at the SW advice.

Another SW said a teenager wasn't a danger to herself. That child is now dead. I would be very careful about assuming SW are some kind of oracle and know best about your child.

I wonder what is really going on as you seem to be unable to make your own decisions and are just doing what you are told. By him, by SW, etc etc.

Jux Fri 27-Jun-14 17:38:16

He's been bullying you a long time, hasn't he? You're used to placating him, and he expects to get his own way pretty well all the time. He thinks he can wear you down with his unreasonable demands so that you agree to everything and he will then use it against you later.

Please call WA and get yourself some real life support from professionals who understand exactly what's going on. It will change your life beyond recognition. This time next year you will read this thread in disbelief that you could put up with it as long as you have.

You need to gird your loins, square your shoulders and go into battle.

BelleBoyd Fri 27-Jun-14 18:22:40

That's a bit harsh- it was my decision to ask him to leave, I've ordered an injunction form if he doesn't on the agreed date.I'm doing what I can to get him out with as little disruption to my DD as I can. If that means just one more week I can handle that.
I hope I will be able to stand by what I want re access arrangements as well. I've stopped him using my car-he has no key of his own.
I am certainly not doing what he tells me and obviously I need to tow the line with SW.

Itsfab Fri 27-Jun-14 18:28:44

Then I apologise and wish you luck for a safe and happy future. You don't need to tow the line with SW. They are not the boss of you either and I am sure you wouldn't put your child at risk, just remember you can't trust your STBEH.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now