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Are these sociopthic traits? (warning VERY long)

(116 Posts)
morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 10:30:17

Apologies this is SO long but I'm still struggling to move on from this a year on.

I got with my ex back in 2010. At the time I was 41, he was 3 years younger. I have no children and it is biologically impossible for me to have my own. My only option is complicated IVF with egg donors. Ex knew this right from the start.

He is a highly educated, successful man. Very successful in his field. He was also the most charming, decent man I had ever met (or so I thought, as did everyone else, including family and friends). There were a couple of things that maybe I should have paid more attention to but you know what it is like in the first throes of a relationship! eg whilst he was very sociable with colleagues during the working day, he didn't have any friends that he socialised with out of work, he was actually quite 'against' it, he used to say that he only needed that one person (me at the time) in his life. I could also tell he was never that keen on socialising with my friends.

Later on I also found out a couple of things about the way he had been with exes that I didn't think was nice/not normal behaviour. Eg he has only ever properly lived with one girl, years go when he left Uni, they bought a house together. To cut a long story short he finished the relationship by accepting a job miles away without even telling her. That night he told her he had got this job, she said 'but I can't leave my job and move?' he just replied 'yes I know.' That was his way of ending the relationship! Now I know you'll be thinking what an idiot I was to stay but it's easy to think that now in hindsight, at the time I said 'that's awful' but he said yes but you don't know what she was like blah blah blah.

He was so 'anal' about everyone else having 'manners' and 'behaving properly' etc eg if a driver dared not to thank him for letting them out at a junction there would be big lights flashing at them performance. Or if someone dared forget to thank him if he held a door open he would be like 'wow' in a big loud voice after them. Sometimes I would be on tenterhooks when out with him willing people to say 'thank you' etc!

He was out with another girlfriend once who I think was a bit of a maybe 'high maintenance' girl, liked going to the 'in bars' which was so the opposite of him. Anyway they were out one night and she had ordered a G&T, she was having banter with the barman about why would you have a gordons when you could have a bombay sapphire. He obviously thought this was a bit 'poncy' so when the barman asked him what he wanted he said 'G&T and gordons is fine.' And I can hear the patronising voice he will have said it in, just ridiculed his girlfriend in front of someone.

He was also very strong on the view that all contact with exes/exes family should be broken. I can remember being left an Xmas present by an exe's mum (which obviously I didn't ask for and hadn't heard from her in months) - well he didn't like that at all and said that if it had been him he would have handed it back (which I thought was the height of rudeness, the exes mother was lovely and had never done anything bad to me!). He got in quite a sulk bout it.

I know these all sound like really silly little things but I'm just trying to paint a picture of him. He was so anal about morals/values etc but I have since come to realise that they don't apply to himself.

Anyway back to me and him. After 1 1/2 years I sold my house and we moved into his. It was a big Victorian house, a huge renovation project, which I willingly took on with him and put months and months of hard labour into. We also decided to embark on IVF. Very complicated and expensive because of egg donors etc. We had the first cycle in August 2012, it failed, we were both devastated. We had the second cycle in Nov/Dec 2012. We got the results 6 days before Xmas, failed again.

Over the next 3 days he turned into the most cold, unsupportive character I have ever met, we hardly spoke. It was unbelievable. To cut a very long story short the outcome was that 3 days before Xmas he announced that actually things weren't right anymore and that was that! 3 days before Xmas and I was left homeless, devastated, with a body full of raging IVF drugs. He spouted on stuff about how all we'd been doing is the house and IVF, we'd stopped living and he'd fallen out of love with us! Looking back I think cheeky f***er - I put all that work (not to mention money) into your house and I get that thrown back at me like that.

He also owes me several thousand pounds, which I doubt I will ever see. He will have convinced himself that he doesn't owe it.

I have never seen him since that day (22/12/12) and haven't had any correspondence with him since last January. My dad got involved (my parents were distraught to see the state I was in) and sent him a letter (very polite I might add but just telling him what he though about his behaviour). He text my dad spouting on about how he had one side of story, fair point but he then went on to lie about how we had been 'constantly arguing' (complete and utter rubbish, and I have prove to show this wasn't how the relationship was), how he had lost everything, how I just wanted a child (that makes me livid as I told him a million times that being with the right person was more important than having a child and that is absolutely how I feel) but that he had just loved me etc etc

My family and friends that knew him were in total and utter shock (as I still am!). He sent a couple of emails last January that came across as so sanctimonious, how he had done brave thing, and how he'd been trying to help me achieve my dream (the ivf/children - cheeky f***er!) blah blah blah

Anyway, I am far from over it a year on. Whilst the logical part of me says I'm so better off out of that, I can't forget the wonderful years we did spend together, where he was the ultimate gentleman to me.

Some people have suggested to me that he displays sociopathic behaviour in the way he just switched off and moved on. He doesn't meet many of the signs of a sociopath eg no money worries, would never be in trouble with law etc but I think he is lacking in the empathy department.

The first time I met his mum (who now hates me) she said a weird thing to me - something like 'don't you think he's a weird one, when he goes off into his own world and I'll be saying what's wrong?'' She then quickly followed it up with 'but I think he's wonderful.' I remember thinking you're a bit odd, what a thing to say!

Do you think this sounds anything like sociopathic behaviour or am I just looking for reasons other than he just fell out of love with me (which is just so hard to accept given his behaviour up until that point). It is so hard to reconcile, to anyone that meets him they think he is this wonderful, absolutely charming person, they would never see the darker side underneath.

Thanks xx

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 10:31:42

sorry 'sociopathic'

HamletsSister Mon 03-Feb-14 10:34:40

I don't want to ignore you although I have no expertise at all in this area. He just sounds like a total shit. What I would do, is not give him any space in your head. Move on. Forget him. It sounds like he is looking for "perfect" and that he suddenly takes against someone for being "perfectly human" and that you, at least, have got out from the relationship.

Onesleeptillwembley Mon 03-Feb-14 10:37:55

From your story he sounds a shit. But you sound obsessed. And your father sending a letter? Very, very inappropriate. Best you let it go and move on.

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 10:40:32

Hamlet, you are absolutely right, he is looking for 'perfect!' You are spot on.

Thanks so much for reading, I didn't realise how long it had got until I posted it. I think most people will think I can't be bothered reading that so thanks so much!

It is hard to reconcile, I drive myself mad thinking am I imagining he is 'not right' and that with the right person he will be the perfect partner? But there is no excuse for his behaviour is there?

I know I need to move on. I really don't want to waste anymore of my precious life on him


morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 10:48:05

I don't think my father sending a letter was inappropriate. If someone had treated one of my loved ones so appallingly I don't think it would be inappropriate to let them know what I thought of their behaviour.

that wasn't really the point of my message but thanks for taking the time to reply anyway

scornedwoman67 Mon 03-Feb-14 11:07:58

Hi, Morley

He sounds very much like a man a friend of mine married - and divorced- within a year of meeting.
He sounds extremely controlling ( telling you who you should receive gifts from/ be in touch with) and highly aggressive ( driving/ rudeness) as well as totally self-obsessed and selfish. I know it will be very hard for you to move on, but every time you start thinking about him, write down a list of horrible things he did/said and how that made you feel.
If you magically got back together, would he make you happy? No, sadly not. You need to find somebody who is worthy of you. He isn't.x

Dahlen Mon 03-Feb-14 11:12:25

I don't mean this to sound flippant but does it matter? Regardless of whether he is a sociopath or a garden variety fuck-wit, the point is that he has treated you appallingly. That's all that matters. Whether his behaviour is borne of a psychiatric condition or simply because he's a selfish bastard, it is his behaviour which is at issue here. It's not you.

Knowing that is enough. How would it help you to know for sure that his lack of empathy is due to a psychiatric condition?

Hope you gain some peace on this. flowers

FabULouse Mon 03-Feb-14 11:13:15

I don't think it was inappropriate of your father to have done that at all. It probably didn't prick the conscience of such a shitty bastard but it demonstrated to you that you are loved and valued which is hugely important when you've been knocked off your feet by this.

He sounds narcissistic to me - expecting to be treated faultlessly by others 100% of the time, whilst demonstrating a massive lack of empathy for others and willingness to distort and fabricate a reality significantly different from what genuinely took place.

You are well away from him. Don't worry about obsession as long as you are keeping other 'balls' in your life in the air. It takes a long time to make sense of relationships like this and make peace with it all flowers

TeenyW123 Mon 03-Feb-14 11:17:25

What are you doing about the money he still owes you?

VerlaineChasedRimbauds Mon 03-Feb-14 11:29:20

I wonder whether you could get some counselling? I think it can take a long time to make sense of this sort of thing - it will be hard for you to move on and get on with your life until you can talk it through with someone who has the skill to listen and help you to untangle your thoughts. I don't think it does matter whether he was a sociopath - and I think you trying to work out whether he is or not is a red herring - I can understand why you are asking. Would the answer: "yes, those are very clear sociopathic tendencies" help you to move on? Is it a case of you being able to feel less gullible if someone said this?

I split up with someone and it took me a very long time to get over it. I did feel a bit of a fool (a lot of a fool?) for continuing to think/hope it would be ok in the end over so many years. Counselling helped - just because my thoughts were so tangled. As you untangle your thoughts quite a lot of things fall through the holes and are no longer important and what is left gives you a clearer view of what you really need to face up to. Once you've faced up to whatever it is - then it is much easier to move on. I had the aim of feeling indifferent about the person I split up with - it took a while, and I had to be angry first, but eventually I did feel indifferent and was even able to move on from that to something very slightly warmer: remembering some good times without wishing to go back to them.

It's clearly been very tough for you. Be kind to yourself.

poorincashrichinlove Mon 03-Feb-14 11:39:06

He treated you appallingly. Sociopath or total shit? It's actually irrelevant to you now. I'm sorry you're hurting so much. Have you considered counselling to try to help you move on?

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 11:47:17

thank you all so much for your kind words.

You are all SO wise! You have all grasped an immediate understanding of the situation, and how I am feeling, just by my one message (albeit rather lengthy!).

Dahlen/Verlaine - you have made me think - why am I so curious to now if it is sociopathic behaviour? It is a red herring isn't it? I think I'm just desperate for reasons other than thinking it was something lacking in me that put him off (which I know is a self confidence issue in me rather then him). You're right, I need to drop this thinking cos what the hell difference does it make?! I do occasionally think about counselling and may consider a few sessions. Verlaine - sorry you went through what you did but pleased to hear you have come out the other side.

Fabulouse - thank you, it really did knock me off my feet and it is only the love and feeling valued by other people that has got me this far. I am defo keeping other balls in the air - luckily I have a brilliant job, a couple of brilliantly supportive friends and am trying to move on practically - I have even bought a house six months ago and completed a big building project (extension) on it, am just doing cake decorating night school class etc. Just little things, but trying to carry on with life until this deep personal unhappiness clears.

Regards to the money - there's nothing much I can do as, foolishly I have nothing legal/concrete to show/prove it. I could contact him again but to be honest, whilst it is a lot of money, moving forward is more important to me. I think the contact would take me back several stages. I am extremely fortunate that, whilst obviously I want the money back, I don't 'need' it as such. His last words were that he couldn't afford to pay it to me at the time, needed to come into some money or when he sells the house.

Thanks girls, you're all stars


LizLemongrass Mon 03-Feb-14 11:48:05

I don't know about the label, but he sounds a bit like my x.

1) he re-writes history (he has convinced himself that he doesn't owe you thousands even though he clearly does)

2) he has no empathy, or if he does, he works hard to rationalise away any need to be burdened with the inconvenience of empathy

3) you say fell out of love (I say de-valued). To begin with narcissists will have such a black and white good and bad column, you are valued, and when you're valued you feel so appreciated and valued! obviously it is flattering, you feel that it is his discernment that makes him value you, but no, at that point he's still negotiating (negotiation your opinion of him so to speak) when you're suck in and the deal is sealed, and the first time you tolerate being treated badly and come back for more, then you're re-filed under 'devalue' or valueless.

4) my x was very respectable outwardly too. Also very well-educated and successful in his field but he lacked social skills and he had a low emotional quotient, and he didn't see that he was undergunned emotionally or socially if you see what i mean, he simply had contempt for anybody that wasn't like him, or that made him feel flawed or uncomfortable or anybody that challenged him.

Don't have a child with him. I have spent the best part of five years trying to get free (mentally, practically, emotionally, financially...) from a nutter or a sociopath or a narcissist. Whatever you call it. A rose by any other name is still a rose, and by Rose, I mean nettle!

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 11:48:29

Poorincashrichinlove - thank you, your post crossed with mine

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 11:51:37

LizLemongrass - thank you. You know what you're talking about!

so sorry you went through what sounds like a horrible experience, I wish you a far rosier future

thank you for replying - it really does help to hear other people's views


LizLemongrass Mon 03-Feb-14 11:58:49

Thank you Morley19. It stays with you though. When I finally left (and it felt like a failure at the time, that I hadn't managed to make it work, sure how could I?) I felt so guilty for him. The thing is, in a really dysfunctional way it 'worked' as in, I had so much empathy I felt his pain! and he felt his. And he took, and I gave. And we stumbled on like that for 8 years.

I was a shell when I left. I was about to turn to ashes. And yet when I left, he still berated me for being cold and heartless! Ah well, I had a five year recovery plan. Emotional and financial. I'm ok now!

I realise now that I stayed with him because I prioritised appearing happy over being happy. I'm not sure I could tell the difference. Because I was such a people -pleaser I had no idea how to go about pleasing myself. I didn't feel I had the right to draw a line in the sand and say "i'm off". I feared being judged as a single person/mother. Now, after psychotherapy, I have totally re-ordered my priorities.

bumbumsmummy Mon 03-Feb-14 12:02:13

Have you tried therapy ? It sounds like it may help the guy was a cold shit the minute you didn't meet his ideal of the perfect family he was ofski

I dare say that will always be the case

Take control of your life who said you need a man to go through IVF with

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 12:13:20

Thanks *bumbumsmummy8

You're right, that's exactly what I'm trying to do, take control of my own happiness. My message probably makes me sound really weak etc but it's just because I was telling the story, I do think I am actually quite strong. It's just hard sometimes isn't it.

I think the IVF journey is over for me but I do occasionally think about looking into adoption. I'd just much rather do it in the 'traditional' set up of doing it with my partner/husband but life isn't always like that is it?!

Thanks for taking the time to read my essay and replying


poorincashrichinlove Mon 03-Feb-14 12:31:09

OP you sound lovely btw. Wish you the happiness you deserve x

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 12:50:37

poorincashrichinlove - bless you, what a kind thing to say. I hope your name is an indication of your happiness x

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 12:58:18

poorincashrichinlove - you have actually just reminded me of something he said in one of his 'oh so sanctimonious' emails last year. He said 'you are lovely and you looked after me so well, some have suggested too well in fact.' His emails said how 'sorry he was he hadn't seen this coming' etc etc

Like I said, to someone reading even those emails and not knowing him they would probably think he was being decent about it. But I think it's all just false, his actions spoke louder than his words?


tobiasfunke Mon 03-Feb-14 13:08:01

It's perfectly normal to let men like this under your skin because everything is perfect and then suddenly it's all over. You don't get a chance to fight and fall out and learn to hate them.

The problem is it wasn't perfect but you didn't see that. If I was going to have a punt as a cod- pyschological diagnosis then -he sounds as if he has narcissistic traits. The problem with narcissists is that they have no empathy and no real feelings for anyone else. They want to be seen to have an ideal relationship and so are able to basically play the part of the perfect partner but when something comes along that puts a spanner in the works- eg your failed IVF, then that's not in their fantasy. They can switch off their affections because they didn't have any anyway - they are incapable. Then they do what they always do when something goes wrong- they blame someone else without pausing for breath. They don't feel shame because they are always right and nothing you could ever say would persuade them otherwise.

The veneer of civility is always very thin with a narcissist- that is why they totally overreact when they perceive someone to have slighted them- like the other drivers or people not saying thank-you.

Life with a narcissist must be virtually impossible. You need to concentrate on his bad points- every time you think of him make yourself think of how badly he treated you or what an arse he was. He proved he wasn't what you thought. You should feel lucky that you got away from him when you did.

LessMissAbs Mon 03-Feb-14 13:27:56

If other people are saying things like him having sociopathic traits, then he probably does. Its relatively common - theres supposed to be a certain number of people in society who do.

That said, you also sound very different. He sounds like he is a serial monogamist with the ability to close his mind and move on. Quite a lot of men do have that ability. I would agree with him being narcisstic and possibly also a bit histrionic and anti-social.

While I thought "good on your father" for writing that letter, I don't agree with you that staying in touch with ex's families is a good thing. I think as an adult you should be reasonably independent and able to stand on your own feet, and I think you have a relationship with the person, not the family. At least that sort of spending lots of time with your boyfriend's family thing isn't for me really, in and out of their house, socialising with them, presents after you've split up, it almost sounds like an arranged marriage.

I think you were very different people and I hope you meet someone you're more suited to, who shares your values and beliefs.

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 13:41:32

Thanks LessMissAbs You have summed him up quite well! He definitely has the capacity to just shut off and move on (which I find quite cold in itself, to go from how he was to that).

You may have misread but I didn't actually say that about staying in touch with exes family. I agree, it is better to drop this contact over time (unless children are involved of course, then it is harder). I hadn't actually made any contact with his mother, she was in contact with me for 2 or 3 months after the split as she was a very caring person who wanted to ensure I was OK. I then dropped contact but several months later, out of the blue, she sent me an Xmas present. I didn't invite it. Whilst I wasn't in contact with her I think it would have been very rude to return it, a more appropriate action (if any action was needed) in my view was to drop a very brief line thanking her for the present and wishing her well (a note that didn't invite contact back). Because of how my current ex (contradiction?!) reacted I ended up not even thanking her, which didn't sit well with me.

I hope I am very different to him as I couldn't in my wildest dreams ever treat anyone in the way he treated me.

Thanks for replying, I do appreciate it x

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 13:47:40

Thanks tobiasfunke you sound extremely knowledgeable!

What you say about the veneer of civility being so thin - gosh that makes sense! Yes the reaction to a small thing like someone not thanking when you hold a door open (don't get me wrong that annoys me too but sometimes people just don't think do they) was just so over dramatic. It ended up making him look the knob!

Thanks for the good advice - that's exactly what I try and do, concentrate on his bad points, I just don't manage it all the time sad


bibliomania Mon 03-Feb-14 14:26:11

Insert here the usual disclaimers about not diagnosing anyone over the internet, I don't have qualifications etc etc.

You do sound like someone who has suffered at the hands of a narcissist. There's a whole idealize/devalue/discard cycle which is a bit of a head-fuck.

I found I had to learn to do a bit of self-forgiveness because I kept asking how I had been such a bad judge of character. You know what, you gave someone the benefit of the doubt. It's hardly the crime of the century.

LatinForTelly Mon 03-Feb-14 14:33:36

I agree with Dahlen. Does it matter how you label it? His behaviour was utterly shitty, and you are well, well out. Imagine trying to bring up a child with someone like that?

I had a similarly dysfunctional relationship once. I tried to analyse and dissect it after it ended. A friend said to me, 'Latin, sometimes you have to accept that some people are just not very nice'. She rather cut to the chase when I was going round in circles, trying to untangle my thoughts!

Also, another friend used this phrase to describe her previous relationship. 'All the ways in which he was wonderful did not make up for the ways in which he was not'. This helped me too at that time. So yes, your ex may have been the gentleman at times, but he always had that other side as part of him. It really doesn't sound like it was something you did.

Sorry, not much original here, but wanted to add my voice to the chorus saying it sounds like you did nothing wrong at all.

glasgowsteven Mon 03-Feb-14 14:50:59

He is out your life

the money he owed you was cheaper than 20 years of hell

Let it go...

and move on

(I would also burn down his house...but thats me)

LizLemongrass Mon 03-Feb-14 15:21:59

No, life isn't always 2.4 children with a big strong husband and a lovely house with curb appeal, and a bichon frisse!! And i think, trying to get that, and in the absence of that fake it, I created a very unhappy situation for myself.

What you say about being strong strikes a chord. If you don't mind me saying, I was strong too, but because I had a damaged self-esteem, I used up that strength coping with the daily grind. I could have got rid of the emotional leech much sooner and channeled my strength in to what i wanted, if I could have identified that! I got so confused, trying to please people.

Anyway, take time out to be yourself, know yourself. All that jaz that sounds very LA but is so valuable! REally value the psychotherapy I had and I think it's vital for any woman that's ended up in a relationship with a fuckwit or a nark or a sociopath.

Don't scrimp on it, invest in to yourself and your future and if you decide when the dust has settled to adopt, then go for it! I love a happy ending! I really do, but I love a happy ending, not a conventional ending. They overlap sometimes but not always.

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 16:03:11

Thank you ladies, each one of you has said thinks that are really making me think more rationally. I'm not stupid, or naïve, but it is easy to get caught up in a mess like I did when affairs of the heart are involved.

bibliomania - thanks for that link. It's very hard to know if he does fit the profile, I think I went straight from the idealise phase to the discard phase which is why it knocked the stuffing out of me. The thing the article says about a narcissist always returning - that is the total opposite of him. But like people have said, sociopath/narcissist or not, he's still a shit!

Latinfortelly - thanks for that. You're right, he obviously did always have this side, I think he just managed to keep it hidden. Lots of little indicators I can think of now, but isn't hindsight wonderful! Sometimes he was either very up or very down. He admitted himself he could be very cold. I think he once said that someone had suggested he might be a bit bi-polar.

glasgowsteven - what good idea (the fire)...if I thought I could get away with it....

LizLemongrass - it's sounds like I am just where you were. I am a strong person - both mentally and practically, but am not ashamed to say this knocked me sideways and absolutely damaged my self esteem. I generally agree with what my dear mum says - 'what's meant to be never passes you by' - but it's just sometimes hard to main the positive outlook isn't it when you've been battered a couple of times. Very wise words what you say about happy v conventional.

Thanks everyone, you may feel that your message has only been brief but they really are helping me xx

whitsernam Mon 03-Feb-14 16:15:25

I had a somewhat similar relationship a number of years back. It took me a long time to figure out that what really attracted me to him was his intelligence and education, not his personality or how he treated me. I just really enjoyed the conversation, variety of topics we could cover, and the urbane exterior he showed the world. Still carry a bit of a torch for him, to be honest, but know on a deeper level it would still never work because he's too selfish, exacting, hostile when others don't behave perfectly, etc. etc.
So in the end, I've had to realize I'm attracted to super intelligence, but also need some gratitude, generosity, etc. I bet you'll always see the good in him, but also be cautious about finding the other things you need as well. This was painful for you (me too!) but you seem to be learning from it, and in the end, this is life! Love your dad, btw!!!

redundantandbitter Mon 03-Feb-14 16:17:29

biblomania my exp fits the narcissist description almost spot on. Urgh . Twat

Branleuse Mon 03-Feb-14 16:26:14

He doesn't sound right. Sounds very narcissistic, borderline psychopathic

Hogwash Mon 03-Feb-14 16:40:00

He sounds damaged, whatever his label. I think the thing to look at here is not what he is, but why it even matters to you what he is. After dumping you full of IVF drugs, why are you still able to think fondly of him?

Past behaviour is so often a predictor of future behaviour - so I'm sure next time when you see the red flags that he showed you, you will run away fast. Like others have said, counselling might help untangle it.

Also, it's a shame you couldn't even thank your ex's mum - maybe you could do that belatedly and explain why - that might also make you feel better to put that behind you.

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 17:37:52

Thanks Hogwash - I know what you mean but I think the reason I still thought of him fondly was that, unlike him, I couldn't just turn my feelings off like a tap. I am very glad of that, I would hate to be that cold.

I think you, and others, are right, maybe some counselling sessions. They were suggested a year ago but to be honest I wasn't in a fit state, I was a walking zombie, couldn't utter two words about it without breaking down. I wouldn't have welcomed the advice of a counsellor, I wasn't ready to move on, didn't want to. Now at least I'd be able to talk about it and speed up the process of moving on completely

Thanks x

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 17:39:51

Thanks whitsernam - sorry to hear you went through something similar, crap isn't it. I hope you are in a much better place now.

Yes, I am proud of my dad, I don't blame him for doing what he did!


Hissy Mon 03-Feb-14 18:59:01

There's been a lot for you to take in, and it sounds like the true measure of this man is here on this thread.

Wrt the money, could you look into getting a charge put on his property so that if he sells, you get your money paid back automatically?

Hogwash Mon 03-Feb-14 19:21:12

You're welcome. Also, you describe him as: 'highly educated, successful man. Very successful in his field' - so successful but he can't afford to pay you back a few grand for hour renovations? Are you sure he isn't hiding money somewhere?

flippinada Mon 03-Feb-14 20:39:24

Hi morely, your thread really struck a chord with me as the characterteristics you describe so eloquently are very similar to the way my XP (who I have a child with) behaved, right down to the stealing thousands of pounds without so much as a twinge of conscience and the ability to switch off emotions like a tap (I think when people are like this the emotions were never real to begin with).

He too is very much into appearances and how things appear on the surface. He likes to project the image of caring family man without understanding what it really means. Co-parenting with him is not much fun, I have to say.

Ultimately though, whether your ex (or mine)is a socipath or not isn't important. What is important is looking after your own mental and physical health and making sure you're ok. Some therapy/working on yourself might be helpful.

I'm glad your Dad stuck up for you, he sounds like a goodun smile.

flippinada Mon 03-Feb-14 20:40:01

Sorry, of course I mean morley.

morley19 Mon 03-Feb-14 21:21:02

Thanks Hissy Hogwash and flippinada

Sorry for the delay, just got back from night school - made a sugar paste teddy bear - I'm sure it will come in handy at some stage?!

It's so hard isn't it? To have someone you would have bet your life on turn round and treat you this way, it's incomprehensible. Really knocks the stuffing out of you. My mind still plays tricks on me now and makes me think I'm imagining it all and that it was simply a guy that fell out of love but then the facts speak for themselves don't they? No-one 'normal' could ever treat someone they, up until a couple of days before, were apparently in love in that way could they? I couldn't treat my worst enemy like that..

Hissy - thanks, something to think about re the money

Hogwash - you're right, he could easily get his hands on the money if he wanted to. I know that he will have convinced his twisted mind that he doesn't owe it

flippinada - my heart goes out to you. Happy for you that you have a little one, but I can only imagine how hard it must be to bring the child up with him.

Thanks ladies for all the advice and understanding and not just telling me that I was an idiot to stay with him after the warning signs (I don't need anyone to tell me that!)


melanie58 Mon 03-Feb-14 23:35:27

You weren't an idiot. You were a nice, trusting person. The problem was not you, but him. Do look at the wonderful Lundy Bancroft book, Why Does He Do That? I'm sure it will help you come to terms with what has happened and accept that there is nothing you could have done to change him, and that him ending the relationship was the best outcome for you.

LizLemongrass Mon 03-Feb-14 23:49:26

That thing with getting really angry really quickly if somebody disrespects him doesn't hold open a door for him, that is classic low self-esteem + HUGE ego. So beware of that combination! argh! That type of person (and they needn't be a sociopath, just a regular fuck up!) will function without a healthy self-esteem, but it's all superficial, to function with confidence they have to temporarily inflate their ego! this is done through drama baiting you, insulting you, watching you cry, financial or verbal abuse! anything he can do that has a big (and devastating) impact on you will make him feel important and alive and confident, and that's what he needs cos the fucker has such a damaged self-esteem.

and so do you to put up with it sad wine but the difference is that you would never treat somebody like that. Except yourself. So remove yourself from this equation. He takes you give. He meets his needs, you meet his needs. He feels his pain. He trains you to feel his pain. Your voice is silenced. You get in to that rut, and it can roll for years, your misery will only OIL it.

Somebody on here recommended a really good book to me. Anne Dickson's "a woman in your own right". It's officially about assertiveness, but it is a book about self-esteem really, and how we act if it's damaged. It will help you see yourself, see him (although his problems are bigger and not your problem).

I second the lundy book too, it did help me realise it was him, he was a bully because it netted him results............ not cos he was damaged or in pain, blah blah blah !!! but don't get too hung up on analysing him after you've left him/ finished things with him. Focus on yourself.

SomethingOnce Tue 04-Feb-14 00:01:27

While the label doesn't matter that much in the end, there is comfort in being able to tick off items on a list of traits.

It helps you see the ways in which the behaviour is part of a recognised pattern of dysfunctionality, the origins of which probably lie in childhood, and is therefore no fault of yours.

I was in a relationship with somebody whose behaviour was certainly outside accepted norms. It confused me, made me doubt myself, and ultimately made me depressed. Having read about narcissistic/sociopathic personalities on here, I get it - it wasn't me, it was him.

I hope everything is wonderful for you from here on in, OP.

ScottishPies Tue 04-Feb-14 01:39:43

thank god for mumsnet and all the lovely people on it.

morley19 and bibliomania I love you both, and all the other people on this thread who have opened up given there stories and feeling and doubts and insecurities.

thanks to you guys I've just had a massive lightbulb moment myself - I've just realised that my dp (well, as of about 30minutes ago he's very definitely my exdp) is a classic Narcissist. Since just before xmas, when we had a big row and I could take it no more and left (his house) I've been pulling myself to bits trying to work out what went wrong and thinking that he was the love of my live, that he was a misunderstood tortured soul, and that all the crap he put me through is just water under the bridge. When in reality, the crap was crap and he's a self centred arse who blames everybody else for anything that's ever happened to him and is so full of anger and hate. He's an articulate manipulator, and emotionally bully. A pretty boy (well, man, he's in his 50's) who knows it and makes sure everyone around him knows it to!

Biblio, your link has totally opened my eyes, I could have written every single word of that myself.

morely19, it takes a long time to get over a manipulative charmer, don't be too hard on yourself, they mess with your head and heart.

You won't find me writing any more positive reflections about my exdp on mns any more - thanks Morley19 and Bib, you've made one person in this lonely nasty world a much happier secure person.

ScottishPies Tue 04-Feb-14 02:06:59

LizLemongrass - "That thing with getting really angry really quickly if somebody disrespects him doesn't hold open a door for him, that is classic low self-esteem + HUGE ego. So beware of that combination! argh! That type of person (and they needn't be a sociopath, just a regular fuck up!) will function without a healthy self-esteem, but it's all superficial, to function with confidence they have to temporarily inflate their ego! this is done through drama baiting you, insulting you, watching you cry, financial or verbal abuse! anything he can do that has a big (and devastating) impact on you will make him feel important and alive and confident, and that's what he needs cos the fucker has such a damaged self-esteem."

my exdp so had this and demonstrated it on many many occasions - he is such a fuck up. His ego was off the scale. He loved to be made to feel important and would go on about all the brilliant ideas he had an how he'd changed peoples life's. Controlling tosser.

Morely19 - we can both do this !! These bully's are no longer in our homes lets cast them out of our hearts aswell. What use is a miserable little troll muttering a load of bull running around our heads. We can't fix them. WE CAN'T FIX THEM. They'll never be the person they claimed to be when we first met them, that person does not exist.

Morely19, I'm 43 and sadly childless, not through choice - the ending of this relationship means that I will definitely now not have a child of my own. And it is heartbreaking. But I try to imagine what it would be like bringing up a child with him and know its better this way.

VestaCurry Tue 04-Feb-14 02:52:44

He's a bastard, end of.
It's all caused you great pain but in time you will be so relieved that the relationship did not continue. Counselling might be a good idea, not to explore the sociopath angle, but to talk through your feelings and get to a point where you are able to look forward rather than back at what was a really grim experience (however good the relationship might have seemed at certain points).
Good luck

morley19 Tue 04-Feb-14 07:55:23

scottishpies - I totally echo that, the people are here on wonderful. I am so grateful for everyone that took the time to read my story and comment, I can't stress how much this has all helped.

Melanie58 Lixlemongrass somethingonce scottishpies vestacurry - thank you all for your messages, I'd gone to bed last night when you sent them. You've all made some really good points.

From reading other people's stories I have come to realise that there are such varying degrees of such type of person, whether or not they are 'officially' sociopathic or narcissistic. My ex didn't show many of the classic signs, he didn't verbally abuse me, make me cry etc. He hated people with over inflated egos (but then maybe just a front hey?). But there was definitely a few things that just seemed not quite right to me.

He quite often would seem to be on the edge about whether he was 'up' or 'down' - he even admitted this himself. I also think his mum obviously noticed these things in him as that was a very weird thing to say to your son's girlfriend the first time you met her?

I think a big contributor to how he is stems back to his childhood. He had a friend that he spent all his time with who suddenly died at the age of 13. I don't think he was given the support he needed. He only spoke about it a couple of times but I remember once he said that he shut himself off for years afterwards and didn't let anyone get close to him, I think fear of the same thing happening again. That's got to have had an effect on how he is now? I know it's easy for me to say but I partly blame his parents for letting that happen.

But anyway like you all say, whatever his 'diagnosis' his treatment of me was shocking and appalling and I really need to get in the frame of mind where I think 'lucky escape' - I'm getting there, promise!

scottishpies - I'm so sorry that you are in the same position as my with regards to children. That's all part of the struggle too as I am having to accept I will never have my own child (bear I child that is, I know there's other options). I never dreamed I would be in this position and it is absolutely heartbreaking. There's no escape from it is there? Every day you have to watch all you friends bringing up and enjoying their children. But am I with you and agree that I'm glad I don't have a child with him

Thanks everyone


MadIsTheNewNormal Tue 04-Feb-14 07:59:32

OK, so far I am up to paragraph six where he ordered the Gordon's and I see no obvious evidence of sociopathy so far...and nothing that cannot be justified by 'but you don't know what she was like...'

MadIsTheNewNormal Tue 04-Feb-14 08:00:54

para 7 about the ex's family - yes, that's a bit odd and controlling.

morley19 Tue 04-Feb-14 08:17:33

Thanks madisthenewnormal - it's very hard to put down in writing what he was like. To the outside world he was this charming individual but there was definitely something deep rooted going on.

I don't care what his ex was like, that's not a decent way to end a relationship with someone that you thought enough of to buy a house with a year before. His only complaint about her to me was that she was quite argumentative.

morley19 Tue 04-Feb-14 08:32:10

another thing I've just remembered. I've only ever tried to have a child with one other person, when I was about 38 (he also turned out to be an idiot but in a different way - I pick some corkers!). As I said it had to be IVF.

anyway ex hated this fact - that I had tried to have child with someone else. I was 41 when I met him, I think it would have be more odd if I hadn't had some sort of past like this at that age.

I remember the night he found out, he went off home in a bit of a sulk. We talked it through though and he apologised and just said that he'd thought I was like him and hadn't found that right person yet.

But then, he threw this back at me again at the end of the relationship, on the night it all ended when he was giving me all the crap about why it wasn't right anymore (despite a week and a half before holding my hand in an IVF clinic and telling me how much he loved me for doing what I was doing to try and achieve 'our' dream!) he also at some stage chucked in 'plus you've tried to have a child with someone before!'


ScottishPies Tue 04-Feb-14 09:19:09

I met my exp when i was 41 (luckily the relationship only lasted 14mths). He went bollistic when made a joke about havin gprevious lovers - at the time i thought "what the hell i'm 41 for godsake", it was our first row and i told him that i'm not going to "sit hear and stroke his ego".

Massive red flag moment. I was dubious from then on. Especially when i wasn't suppose to talk about my ex's but he went on and on and on about his.

Several times he nastily threw the fact that i'd had previous partners in my face. I ignored it because by then i was on to his nasty manipulative ways and refused to be upset by them. Tosser.

Why did i not leave earlier !!! Oh yes, he was very pretty with a strong beautiful body ... but he sure knew it and wanted me to admire him as much as he admired himself. I'll miss his body (not the sex as it became all about him and his needs after about 6mts in) but i'll not miss his personality.

ScottishPies Tue 04-Feb-14 09:25:07

Morely - sorry, i'm being a bit of a narc myself, its all about me and i'm not doing a very good job of supporting you. I think i may need to start my own thread !

From what you right you've more strength then you know and you've come further in your journey then you realise. There'll be blimps along the way and i don't think we evr really get over any of our partners because we loved them al in their different ways and because of this there will always be a little place in our hearys and head for them.

ScottishPies Tue 04-Feb-14 09:28:15

Sorry for the bad spelling and punctuation i'm on my phone this morning.

ScottishPies Tue 04-Feb-14 09:37:41

* hearts not hearys !

There's no place in my hairy for him ever again !

morley19 Tue 04-Feb-14 09:40:43

They're just not right are they scottishpies

Mine was slightly different in that he was quite happy that we both had a past, in fact he liked that we had. It was just he didn't like that I had got to the stage of trying for a child with someone else. He wanted us both to have had previous relationships but both never met someone we wanted to have a child with - he wanted it to be 'perfect' in that way, but life's not like that is it? It's a very childish way of looking at the world. And presumably, going by his logic, the fact that he has tried to have a child with me must mean he is 'damaged goods' as far s a relationship with anyone else is concerned. I suspect he probably won't tell a future partner.

Mine was also different in that he didn't want to be admired. He actually actively disliked people with egos, that needed to be admired, were of a 'look at me' nature. To be honest I really can't decide if he fits the profile or not, he only seems to have a couple of the traits but there's defo something not quite right there, whatever it is. I think he even knows that himself.

Anyway I am going to stop trying to analyse him, what he did speaks for itself about the character he is.

I hope you're OK scottishpies and that, if it isn't already, life gets more enjoyable for you x

morley19 Tue 04-Feb-14 09:42:49

scottishpies - don't be daft and don't apologise! Am very interested to hear your story, just sorry you have gone through something similar.

You don't need to start your own thread, feel free to use this one. We're all here to support each other. I didn't think you were being narc at all

Take care x

lancaster1 Wed 05-Feb-14 13:51:28

whether he has the label of sociopath or not he has treated you appallingly. It must be hard but you are well rid of someone that is capable of treating a woman like that


morley19 Wed 05-Feb-14 14:18:44

Thanks Lancaster, trying to think like that x

morley19 Tue 25-Feb-14 19:51:11

Well just to let you know I followed all your good advice and booked appointment with a counsellor. Had initial 'free' session last week and am seeing them again on Thursday.

I hope it helps. I am sick of feeling like this. Am sick of STILL thinking about him so much and trying to make sense of what he did. In my mind he is all loved up and settled with love of his life now, and that kills me!

Really need to be able to think more positively about what my future will be now and accepting that I will never be pregnant and bear a child. Tips?

So many issues to deal with. Counsellor has got her work cut out!


CailinDana Tue 25-Feb-14 23:50:05

Do you think that you're unwilling to let him go because that will mean letting go of the future you hoped to have with him?

morley19 Wed 26-Feb-14 07:43:58

Hi CailinDana

Thanks for replying. Yes I think that's definitely part of it.

I have to admit a big part is still missing him and what we had (well who I thought he was anyway). I know he treated me appallingly but it is still very difficult to forget the incredible years we had before that.

And trying to make sense of what he did. I sway between thinking well he's obviously just f***ed up in some way and the real him shone through at the end to thinking it was just I wasn't right for him and he is now settled with love of his life, all rosy and he's totally normal with her. Even though my friends try and convince me it is the former. And like people say on here, who cares whether he 'officially' has a screw loos or not, what he did was disgusting.

But yes like you say a massive thing for me is the loss of that future and having to give in finally to my infertility and accept that being pregnant and having a child is just not part of my future. That's big enough to deal with on its own with out all the crap I had from him at the end.

Thanks x

CailinDana Wed 26-Feb-14 08:54:03

From what you say about him there seemed to be quite a few red flags in his behaviour, even during the wonderful times. What do you think made you overlook them?

morley19 Wed 26-Feb-14 09:52:28

Very, very good question and one I have asked myself over and over!

I honestly don't know for sure. He seemed head over heels in love, told me that he had never felt anything like it before etc etc. Possibly because of how that made me feel?

I did (do?) genuinely love him. Most of the time he was great and we had a great time together. Everyone else thought he was wonderful (I'm not saying that should affect how I felt about him but just the red flags, whilst indicative of something more serious, must have been displayed quite subtly or only to me?).

Of his red flags I suppose I thought well nobody is perfect (including me) and you accept people for what they are?

I'm not overreacting am I? A 'normal' person wouldn't treat someone you had just (3 days before) been through IVF with?? And throughout tht process was telling me how much he loved me, how happy I made him blah blah blah. It is so hard to see clearly when it's you involved.


Meerka Wed 26-Feb-14 10:15:45

No. Something very strange here. He sounds full-on in all respects; very loving indeed, overreactive to perceived slights by others, then this stunning withdrawal and coldness and the manipulation after.

Something really sounds strange here. Anyone would be left floundering and abandoned by such incredible coldness after such warmth.

morley19 Wed 26-Feb-14 11:05:06

Thanks Meerka that's exactly how I was left.

I just hate that I still think of him so much. I would pay good money to be able to switch him off like a tap (as he did me). Hopefully the counsellor will help with that


Meerka Wed 26-Feb-14 12:35:59

it -will- take time. You've been with him since 2010, you have been through IVF together, shared a house and renovated it together. You're in a grieving process. It's been complicated by the very odd way he's behaved. A separation as sudden as death, only he's still alive. The sheer suddenness is a shock all in itself.

Your reactoin is the 'normal' one, in that nearly everyone takes time to get over such a big change in your life when you have invested love, time and effort. Give yoruself time to grieve and if you can, be gentle with yourself.

Xenadog Wed 26-Feb-14 15:59:40

OP he sounds very similar to my ex who was by the definition a sociopath. I won't bore you with my story (God! It even bores me now!) but I will say these people get into your head and make it very difficult to shake them off. They love bomb you at the start to manipulate you and make you fall in love with them and then once they have you there is no fun as the chase is over. Often then will have contempt for you as you were so easily "caught" although the irony is they generally pick strong women who are difficult to pull into their warped world.

I read you are having counselling, that's good. It will help you explore a lot of the issues that this relationship will have raised and hopefully help prevent you having a relationship with another such man.

I wish you well and remember the best revenge is a life well lived!

morley19 Wed 26-Feb-14 21:42:54

Thanks Xenadog

Hope you're OK now


talullah57 Wed 26-Feb-14 23:14:10

Thank you for your posts everyone. The link to the narcissist was frankly enlightening. Can't thank you all enough and wish you all well x

ScarletStar Wed 26-Feb-14 23:36:33

The BBC website had a really interesting article about relationships with psychopaths/sociopaths actually. It specifically said that they will first of all 'love bomb' their partners so that the following messed up behaviour will be more likely to be excused and so that the partner will forever try to do everything to get back to that golden honeymoon period! So sinister. Xenadog's post reminded me I'd read that somewhere.

ScarletStar Wed 26-Feb-14 23:41:23

And sorry Xenadog I've basically just repeated what you said!

talullah57 Thu 27-Feb-14 00:47:56

Can you post a link to the BBC website please. Thank you!

tawse57 Thu 27-Feb-14 01:07:46

I suggest you google Narcissist Personality Disorder and read about their manipulation and numerous control techniques... and how the only way out is complete no contact.

I dated such a person. I bought a car. I now put the cost of the car down to experience and a lesson learnt. It could have been worse - I could have got married - so I got out cheaply compared to a future divorce.

There are plenty of good sites on NPDs which offer excellent advice. The good thing is that you will be able to spot them in future.

Go and live a happy life.

MistressDeeCee Thu 27-Feb-14 01:08:33

He's a raging Narcissist, most have no empathy whatsoever. Cold, Critical, anal about morals/values fits the bill exactly. Expects others to live up to his impossibly high standards of what he deems perfection. Tend to be good looking, charming, who & what you want them to be upon meeting and engaging with them..but give it time and you'll see their real face. There's so much info about men like this online that Im guessing there'll be forums related to it too. I know a lot of women who fall victim to men like this can take years to heal from the fallout. Perhaps counselling will help you to see how much better off without him you are. There'll be another you, and he will dump her too after reeling her in with his charm. I am guessing many women find the behaviour hard to accept as they just cannot believe anyone could be that cold, harsh and uncaring. Unfortunately - people certainly can. Look up 'narcissist' or 'passive-aggressive' men or some such online, and you will see what goes on. Anyway...he's gone and you need to move on. Get help to heal from this, if you feel that would benefit you.

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 08:01:43

Thank you all so much for taking the time to post. I fell asleep early last night so have only just seen them.

Scarlet - thanks I will have a look at the BBC website.

Mistress - thank you for that. It has been really helpful to me to read what you have to say. Whilst I'd obviously heard the term 'narcissist' previously I didn't really understand what it meant until now. Then when I looked it up I thought he didn't meet half the traits eg would never be in trouble with the law, bad with money etc etc. And I just thought I'm looking for a 'dramatic' explanation for him rather than just accept he was a perfect guy that fell out of love with me. However those 3 traits you have listed - cold, critical, anal about morals/values (other than they don't apply to himself) describes him perfectly. When he wanted to be he could be SO cold (he even admitted that himself, would a narcissist know this about themselves?) and you're right, I found it so difficult to believe anyone could be that cold.

So so difficult to reconcile because 80% of the time he was the most loving, thoughtful, caring romantic person ever, always putting me before himself. But I suppose that doesn't make up for the times he was the complete opposite and his final actions showed his true character didn't they?

Thanks ladies

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 08:03:35

Sorry thanks tawse57 I somehow missed your post when flicking through. Sorry you experienced the same but glad you got out relatively cheaply. Hope you're happy now x

Meerka Thu 27-Feb-14 08:56:37

He might have some narcissist traits but there's a lot of on-line diagnosing goes on that actually, is pretty hit and miss. Sometimes it's a bit of a red herring, it doesnt really matter if they are or not, they are just behaving really badly. I think that we look for explanations about weird / bad behaviour in order to try to make sense of things and get a grasp on them. fwiw I have the impression narcissists rarely admit at any genuine level that they are cold.

NPD or not, the stuff on manipulation applies to a lot of people though and is very useful to read.

Maybe both the loving side and the cold side are both part of him, kind of white and black sides but where most people blend them into grey, with him they're like separated (hah, now im trying to explain him! :D )

hope you're ok this morning morley

ScarletStar Thu 27-Feb-14 09:26:36

I beg your pardon it wasn't the BBC, it was the Huffington post - here you go:

and there's this other good one too:

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 09:54:30

Hi Meerka

Yes that's what I meant, I think I am maybe desperately looking for a reason for his behaviour other than just accepting the alternative (that there's nothing wrong with him, he just didn't want me anymore). To accept the latter, and then the thoughts of him now being the perfect partner with someone really hurts.

Thanks for your post x

LineRunner Thu 27-Feb-14 10:13:24

Oh Morley, there's plenty wrong with him, or he wouldn't have behaved like that.

You will heal from this, in time. The most important thing is that you genuinely forgive yourself for trusting an artifice, and then let it go. Firmly tell yourself what your future is going to look like now - dream some different dreams - and do this often.

Beware of 'love bombing' in the future. That's why the good relationships advice on MN tends to err on the side of caution and says don't commit too much too soon. And when a man tells you what he is ('I can be cold') - listen.

Good luck, morley. A lot if us have been where you are, and it does honestly get better. And it really isn't you - it's him.

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 10:19:16

Thanks LineRunner you've made me feel a bit better again.

I feel really weak for still feeling like this a year on, I hate that I'm allowing him to still make me feel like this. He's taken enough of my life.

I really need to change my mindset. Counselling session tonight, hope it helps

Thanks for taking the time to post x

creamandsugar Thu 27-Feb-14 10:35:41

Haven't read all the replies, but just wanted to say Hurray for you ,you're out of that awful relationship,sounds like you were constantly walking on egg shells.
Maybe it's a good thing you didn't get pregnant by this idiotic man. Imagine a small child being brought up by him!!

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 10:42:08

Thanks creamandsugar

Yes, deep down I know you are absolutely right, better off out of it and good job I didn't have his child.

My mum always says everything happens for a reason, perhaps she's right

thanks for posting xx

Meerka Thu 27-Feb-14 10:49:31

agreed with linerunner, there is plenty wrong with him!

AmIatwat Thu 27-Feb-14 12:18:05

Can I suggest reading Stop Walking on Eggshells. It is on amazon for 25p ( used) it certainly helped me.

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 12:26:27

Thanks Meerka and AmIatwat - will have a look at that book. (also thanks for your message last night AmIatwat - I appreciate it).

I'd just like to say thanks so much for all of you for taking the time to respond to me and read my tales of woe. You are all complete strangers but you will never know how much your messages have genuinely helped me, I can't thank you enough.


Meesh123 Thu 27-Feb-14 12:56:07

Hi I dont like to diminish someones personality without actually knowing them but does this man really sound like the sort of person you want to spend the rest of your life with? He walked out on his girlfriend he was living with, without even talking about it. He treats people like they are below him and he treated you like dirt. You really should be thinking of all the bad things rather than the good as he really does not deserve your heart.

If he has done this to you once - imagine how it would be if you had children together, this man deserves to be alone. I'm sorry to be so harsh but i hope you do find real love and are treated as you should be. Good luck.

HelenHen Thu 27-Feb-14 14:24:52

Yep he sounds like a perfectionist but you also sound like you're trying too hard to make it sound like you were in the right. You're very quick to cut off anyone who suggests you're less than perfect. Could it be that you're mourning the end of the ivf treatment more more than the actual relationship?

LineRunner Thu 27-Feb-14 14:32:24

I think on the contrary the OP is too hard on herself.

It's normal to grieve for a future that of necessity is being replaced by another one. It helps a person to heal when the other new future starts to look a hell of a lot calmer and more secure than the old one.

Morley there are aspects of your OP that ring true for my Ex - who I think was a spoilt nasty arrogant twat. He was also jealous, controlling and belittling.

He would also point out people's rudeness. If he was rude it was because the person he was rude to was beneath him. He was aggressive driver, would laugh at people and their misfortunes etc. but if he like and approved of someone he was incredibly well mannered, funny and charming. I could be proud or mortified depending on his behaviour.

I would tell a funny story (about work) and he would pick it apart until I was stuttering apologies about sharing the joke.

He was ex army and if he encountered any male "weakness" in some poor guy it was stomach churning.

He started off devoted to me. Full on, declaring love. Then dropped me like a stone - by which time I was an insecure mess.

Move on fast - don't look back. He's a prick.

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 14:47:20

Thank you girls

Meesh - you're right, when I'm being honest with myself I know it would have been worse to end up spending life with him. Don't apologise for being harsh, it is what's needed! Thanks you

HelenHen - thanks for your post. Sorry if I have come across as thinking I'm perfect. Believe me I am FAR from perfect. I haven't read back through the thread but am racking my brains to think of where I may have 'cut' people off like that? The only ones that come to mind are where I said I didn't think it was out of order for my dad to write a letter and one where I thought someone had misunderstood what I'd said about keeping in touch with exes. But I certainly wasn't implying I was perfect by just disagreeing with those points. Everyone else's 'criticsims' (wrong word but you know what I mean) about how I m dealing with this I totally agree with (which is why I'm seeking help with it). I'm not trying to say I was in the right, which is why I started the thread to ask is there something 'odd' here or is it just me and I am merely just struggling to accept the truth? Anyway I apologise if this is how I have come across, it's definitely not how I feel, things come across differently sometimes when written down don't they. And yes, as I have hinted at, mourning the end of the IVF is a key feature in this.

LineRunner - thanks, unfortunately being too hard on myself/lack of self confidence is something I have been criticised for over the years. Am trying to think differently


morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 14:57:51

sauceforthegander - you poor thing! That sounds horrendous.

I think there are varying degrees of people that behave like this - like you say there are 'aspects' that are the same.

It's so hard to put down in writing isn't it. I can't convey properly how I felt or sometimes when I put down what he did it sounds so petty reading it back. Like the 'manners' thing - at first I thought Oh how lovely, been brought up 'properly' and was an old fashioned gent. But then because he was so anal about it he ended up looking the knob in public. If we were out shopping and he held doors open (which I have to admit he did do all the time) I would be willing that person to say thankyou. It was embarrassing if they didn't and he would stand there and shout 'wow' (in a patronising tone) after them, I just used to think 'Oh just let it go sometimes!'

I hope you're OK now and happy with your life.


HelenHen Thu 27-Feb-14 15:05:00

Sorry morley, didn't mean to sound like I'm having a go! Yes he sounds odd at worst! Perhaps he's writing a thread somewhere on a men's forum asking for advice on why he can't keep a good woman? smile

Ftr... I always shout 'you're welcome' after people who don't say thank you for holding doors. Some people just like manners! I really can't imagine that makes me a sociopath though blush

You say he's well educated, etc. Is he super intelligent? I have a couple of relatives in mensa but they have zero social skills. I've always had an idea that sometimes it's like a very mild form of autism!

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 15:19:56

HelenHen - no don't apologise (I can be too sensitive sometimes!). I didn't think you were having go honestly, I was just trying to think if maybe I was coming across like that.

How funny - I actually say that too after people if you hold a door open and they don't say thanks (I think I've said it on here somewhere), those exact words! I very much like manners too (which was all part of why I was attracted to him at first) but it was the very arrogant way in which he said/did it. It is so hard me to explain in writing but it was just over the top. We were in a pub once and he was on a downer about something, anyway it was obvious we were getting ready to leave and a lady came and stood nearby to take our table when we'd gone. She wasn't rude or anything, I've done that myself before in crowded restaurants. When we were walking away she kind of laughed and joked 'sorry didn't mean to jump in your grave' or something similar, he just said in a dead arrogant, serious voice 'yeah looks like it' and walked off. She was left just staring after him. Which then caused a row because I said 'why were you so rude to that woman?'

Argh - I'm going to stop trying to put examples in writing as I've just read that back and again it sounds so petty! Anyway, these little things weren't the key thing for me, it was how he was at the end, which was absolutely chilling.

Yes he is very intelligent. Very successful in his filed, doctorate etc.

Thanks for taking time to reply to me xx

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 15:35:14

..unlike me, who can't even spell 'field!' grin

morley he married very quickly after me - there was some overlap! Instead of feeling upset I felt sorry for her and have hoped that she possessed the magic ingredient that would inspire him to be kind and reasonable. Judging by the way he spoke about his previous GFs I know none of us were good enough!

Anyway - it certainly bought about a sea change in me. I toughened up and mumsnet list of red flags would have helped shorten that relationship considerably!

It's not just one thing they do - it's the continuous drip drip.

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 19:09:32

I had to write this post if only to be the 100th message on this thread, yay! (sorry very childish!)

Sauce - you sound very strong, good for you. If there is one good thing to come out of these experiences I think it is that, eventually, it makes you stronger. I expect his poor wife has actually suffered the same unfortunately. I hope you have peace in your life now.

Just been to the counsellor, I think the sessions with her are going to help me, fingers crossed anyway


creamandsugar Thu 27-Feb-14 20:26:40

Hey, me again,finally got time to read the others replies. A lot of wise and kind people here :-)
By the way, that bit about in the busy bar doesn't sound Petty at all!! And fair play u for pointing out his rudeness!!

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 20:32:12

Thanks creamandsugar - there are indeed lots of wise and kind people on here. It was my friend that has children that suggested I post on here and I'm very glad I did. I think it is a brilliant site to get support and different views from (I don't care what that stupid Katie Hopkins says!).

Thanks for must have taken you a while! x

AmIatwat Thu 27-Feb-14 22:08:35

Please tell yourself this: He is the biggest loser, not you!
From now on make it your mission to be the person you want to be. Immerse yourself in the company of confident ,positive people. Try to explore different avenues be it bars, dance classes or whatever. Change your hairstyle, buy the dress you love but cannot ever imagine wearing yourself, in short pleasure yourself. The more we like ourselves the better the outcome of future friendships.
You will never get the answers you crave. This bloke sold you a dream and then dashed it because that's how he gets his thrills.
Your stronger and wiser now; you've had a very lucky escape indeed.
My own experience echoes a lot of what you have experienced. The healing process was painful, but when the clouds eventually lifted I was able to learn to be a little less trusting but have had a few ( if not long term) relationships since. OK so they didn't pan out, but I wasn't left bereft, there was no bitterness, just acceptance that it wasn't meant to be. In fact a lot of my old dates/boyfriends are still in touch.
When you are fully healed and ready to move on, you will meet someone decent, who is normal, not perfect, but loves you for who you are.

morley19 Thu 27-Feb-14 22:17:58

Thanks AmIatwat (the answer is no by the way!)

I really do appreciate the time you are taking to message me. I am definitely making progress with telling myself things like that. The thing that helps most is I ask myself what would I say if he knocked on my door tomorrow pleading for us to get back together. The answer is a resounding no! So I am trying to use that as motivation to move forward and stop obsessing about it. The clouds are definitely lifting.

Oh and I have hair appointment on Saturday so may well just try something different smile

morley19 Fri 28-Mar-14 08:35:44

so... I wrote to him a couple of weeks about the outstanding money. Unsurprisingly, no response.

I went on directory enquiries to check he is still registered at that address. He is.....together with the woman he is now living with. She is someone that started work where he does in May last year...oh and also 14 years younger than me.

So whilst I have been having the shittiest year ever he has been falling in love and now living with someone else. I will just be the 'mistake' in his past

Why does this kill me after so long? Feel like I've been punched in the stomach and back to square 1


Gettingmeback Fri 28-Mar-14 09:34:19

Morley it was a huge post! But you definitely needed to write it. I work with women in abusive relationships and it is natural to look for a label to try and help understand the unexplainable. Every day I hear labels from confused and traumatised women like aspergers, narcissist, sociopath, psychopath etc. There are often elements of all of these but being an abusive and controlling person is not a diagnosable mental disorder. An arsehole is just an arsehole and doesn't need further explanation. You should think about what the other posters have said and access counselling to help you understand why you can't let go of trying to work it out. Make sure it is a counsellor who is experienced in the issues and it won't take long before your constant attempts to psycho analyse him are a distant memory and a good laugh! And i always say to women if you don't understand his behaviour, think yourself lucky because it means you have healthy thought processes. BTW have been through donor myself and the pain of this is a separate issue albeit got tied up in it because he is a man child fuckwit grin

morley19 Fri 28-Mar-14 09:57:30

thank Gettingmeback you sound like you work in counselling or something similar?

I love the 'an arsehole is just an arsehole and doesn't need further explanation.' Love that, am going to keep repeating that!

It's funny you say that about the healthy thought process as that is exactly what I said to my counsellor last night. I said that I am actually glad I will never fathom his behaviour because I wouldn't ever want to posses the mind that could.

Had an unexpected heart to heart with my dad yesterday. He said he had noticed little things that he didn't think was quite right in his behaviour. He said what he did at the end, and how he did it, is the sort of behaviour you would expect from a childish teenager not a grown adult who was in a very serious relationship. He said in all the people he'd worked with/met in his life (and that's a lot) he had never witnessed such cruelty in a person. I know he's trying to make me feel better but I need to keep remembering all this and trying to believe I am better off without him.

It's just so hard - the new woman he is with is young, gorgeous, successful and looks totally normal. So I torture myself with thoughts of 'there's nothing wrong with him, it was just you and they will now have a wonderful life together.'

When you say make sure the counsellor is experienced in such issues, how do I find out exactly? I am seeing one but I would like to know if I am seeing someone that is best suited to me

Thanks for your post


indian1 Fri 28-Mar-14 18:53:44

when you are feeling down just think of all the bad things about him.

From what you say, he won't change and she will have all that to come.

Pity her


morley19 Fri 28-Mar-14 23:31:39

Thanks Indian xx

GarlicMarchHare Sat 29-Mar-14 00:08:43

I've spent years dissecting my marriages (yes, I did it twice blush) to sociopathic types, and I'm not going to do it again. Suffice to say you have my absolute sympathy, morley. There's one thing you mentioned - most of us do it - about wondering if he'll find the right woman who can make it work like you couldn't, blah blah. Despite the fact that this doesn't matter, a wrong relationship is a wrong relationship ... they cut such deep holes in our hearts & psyche, that painful thought remains just where he wanted it to remain.

XH2, I would say, is probably a psychopath. Cruel; machiavellian. No surprise he met the love of his life before we'd even sorted out the split (and were still shagging.) She adored him. Married as soon as the nisi came through, beautiful children, very successful business, perfect life. I don't 'search' him (I did for a while) but recently came across a Facebook photo of them all together: smiling, lovely; I thought bloody hell, don't tell me he's actually managed it! You know the comments people usually post underneath - you look beautiful, what a lovely family, just how I remember you all last summer, and so forth? There was none of that. Just comment after comment saying Wow! You all look so happy! Just that: wow, happy. You know what this says, don't you? He's doing it to her, and to those adorable children, and nobody's ever seen them happy.

You are so well out, morley.

morley19 Sat 29-Mar-14 07:35:02

Thanks garlic I really appreciate the response as I am struggling at the mo, feel like I'm back to square one (when it all finished)

I was managing because my mind had put him in this box where he's this screwed up person that no one would ever be with. But the reality is he is now living with a gorgeous, successful, much younger woman. In my mind they'll live happily ever after and I was imagining everything about him! I'm not thinking straight

Am so sorry to hear what you went through, I really am. I hope you are now in a much better place

Take care

GarlicMarchHare Sat 29-Mar-14 15:29:57

Well, it's had far-reaching effects but at least I won't fall for another sociopath! I didn't have Mumsnet then; it was a good, strong resource when I came here, some years after imploding. Keep posting, morley, whenever you need to flowers

GarlicMarchHare Sat 29-Mar-14 15:31:13

... and, of course, a 'much younger' partner should be easier to manipulate. Poor woman.

morley19 Sat 29-Mar-14 18:14:23

Thank you garlic. Do you know the best bit, new woman is a psychologist! X

GarlicMarchHare Sat 29-Mar-14 18:15:39

Oh, dear!

morley19 Sat 29-Mar-14 18:25:48

A doctor of psychology no less! Very successful

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