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DP to do DVPP - what does this mean for me / my DC?(61 Posts)
Hi, name changed,
My DP had been going through the court system to regain contact with his DC. He and his ex argued and threw things at each other etc. it was an unhealthy relationship. After they split SS were involved due to something one of the DC said, but they did an assessment and were satisfied there was, and never had been any risk to DC from DP. Contact never was reinstated, and this is when he began to fight through the court system. There was also one incident of the police being called after they broke up due to an argument over the phone, again, nothing came of it.
He has never been charged with or found guilty of DV.
After over a year of going through the legal process his ex submitted a statement detailing the abuse she allegedly suffered at his hands, a statement which is inconsitebt with what she told police at the time, SS at the time, CAFCASS, etc. everyone has had a different story.
It has nonetheless been decided that he ought to attend a DVPP. He has agreed because he wants to see the DC. He had a meeting with the lady from the DVPP last week and she asked if he was in a relationship, he replied that he is and she said that she would have to contact me. He has given her my details and I'm waiting to hear from her.
Does anyone know what this means for me? What about my DC? I have DC, and DP doesn't live with us. DC adore him and are very close to him, and he adores them too. DP has never treated me as anything other than an equal, is respectful of me and treats me with kindness and love. My previous partner was abusive, and looking back the signs were there from the start, jealously, possessiveness, etc. DP is nothing like that, and despite the fact that many of you will say I should leave him, I believe him when he tells me that he is not an abusive man.
I don't have anything useful to advise, but I do know that if you were a friend of mine I would be telling you to be very careful. I couldn't get involved with somebody with all that baggage/drama/red flaggage when I have DCs.
I would walk away as of now from him and all this baggage.
You do not need such complications and nor do your children. Put yourselves first and for a change.
How long have you been together?. How much do you really know about this man and his circumstances now?. Is what you have heard particularly in your first paragraph all first hand information that you have learnt yourself or primarily based on what he has told you?.
I would talk to Womens Aid about the possibility of you now doing their Freedom Programme as this is designed for women who have previously been in abusive relationships.
You do not want to ever run the risk of escaping from say one grade 9 abusive man to go into yet another relationship with a person who is also at heart abusive. It sounds to me also like your boundaries on relationships have been well messed up by your previous relationship and issues from that have not been resolved at all (hence the Freedom Programme suggestion).
Such perpetrator programmes do not have much success in terms of actual outcomes; that is also to be borne in mind by you. What can a short course really do here?.
Why do you believe him?
I have to say if SS deemed my DP unfit to be around his own dc, he certainly would not be around mine.
But I have literally zero tolerance or minimisation stuff going on.
SS didn't deem him unfit to be around his DC. SS closed he case immediately and said they had no concerns about him at all, but his ex refusing him contact wasn't a matter for them to deal with and he would have to go to family court.
I don't see him as having a lot of baggage. He has DC and he just wants to see them.
I've known him my whole life, and what I know is what he has said, plus I've seen the reports, statements etc from his ex, CAFCASS etc.
The police and SS didn't think any abuse occurred. The only person who is saying there was abuse is his ex. And this wasn't mentioned for a long time after they split, a long time during which they got along perfectly well and he had a really good relationship with his kids.
We have been together 9 months.
If you were seeing my ex now he would :
Be wonderful to you and attentive and fun with your DC,
tell you his ex-wife was mad and very controlling and had stopped him from seeing his DC for 2 years
tell you SS had been involved at the beginning of our separation due to something the DC said at school and the case is closed now as there was nothing to answer.
tell you he is having to go through the courts to see his DC And Cafcass, solicitor, uncle Tom Cobly etc etc are all supporting him because he is a hard done by victim of an awful woman who used him to have children, ruined him financially and is continuing her abuse via the children who he loves and misses with all his heart.
He would be convincing, he would be lovely and he would be lying.
be very careful
Nine months is no time at all in relationship terms. The fact that you have known him your whole life is irrelevant; what is more relevant here is that you have previously been in an abusive relationship and are now with someone who is going to be sent on a DVPP course. That speaks volumes regarding your boundaries in relationships.
I would keep a safe distance, the fact that someone has determined he is suitable to actually go on such a course in the first place should be a red flag in itself.
Oh, and my ex also went on a DVPP course...to "tick all the boxes"...
Aside from that as your DP is not resident with you and you have no concerns it will mean nothing for you or your children that he attends the course. the course leaders will not share with you what he says or with him what you say. they will use the information to inform their programme and challenge him as appropriate.
I'm sorry about your situation foolonthehill, I know abusive men are very manipulative, my ex is telling anyone who will listen that I'm an evil heartless cow Etc etc etc. and they all believe him.
I was worried that the people from the DVPP would involve social services as standard, because he's on the programme and I have kids.
Obviously if they assess during the programme that he is a risk then I am fully supportive of them involving SS and he would be removed from our lives immediately. If ever I feel that he has overstepped a boundary with us he will be gone. My children's safety is my primary concern, which is why I left my ex, as I felt the example he set them was damaging and that his moods were damaging too.
Sounds like you're going from the frying pan to the fire.
He will not have been ordered to do a Dvpp unless the courts considered him to be a perpetrator. Has there been a Fact Finding hearing ? Have you been in the court room at every hearing ? Have you been at every meeting with social services ? Social services closing the case means nothing. My Ex has a proven history of DV, including against the children. Social services were involved initially. But because I was able to be a protective parent and was going through the court system to sort contact, social services 'closed' the case. It was always clear though that they knew DV had occured.
As for OW, she refused to engage with the program. She refused to believe what he was capable of.
Similar story as foolonthehill for me. I'm sure my XP would be charming and very credible if you'd talk to him now. Hell, a lot of professionals fell for his 'poor me'.
SS and police were involved for the last half year of our relationship and the child protection reports encourage contact with the children until well after the police took him out of the house. Because SS wouldn't hear my story and because I wasn't ready to talk about everything. Only now, almost a year and a half on, do CAFCASS have the full picture and is he being sent on a DVPP as well.
As a victim of DV you know how hard it is to talk, so please don't dismiss his X's claims on the basis that they were not in earlier papers. There could be loads of reasons for that. Men don't get send to DVPP on just the word of their X. It takes a court process with hearings of facts and findings by the judge.
And like monetbyhimself, SS closed the case as soon as possible after he was taken out of the house. They look at who the children are staying with and if that parent is considered safe, they are taken of any protection plans. Closing the case said nothing about how they see him.
Sorry, this is a dim question, I presumed DVPP were for men who were convicted of violence against their partner? Can you actually be sent on one when its a case of he says, she says?
OP, inconsistencies in a story are actually an indication that someone is telling the truth. (Although clearly not proof by themselves!)
Real life is messy, and we remember things out of order, and there are things we might consider to have different significance from day to day/week to week.
When someone is lying they are more likely to make up a story to start with and stick to it.
My abusive ex will probably tell the same lies about me.
Please look at the Freedom Programme - you can do it online, at your own pace Here
tell him that during this programme you need to keep distance and see him less.
a good programme will really challenge him and his views and may make him feel very angry....
if he is truly as you say he is he will also accept keeping his distance while on the course and reviewing after.
ask the dvpp person what the course invovles etc.
give them your views too.
a therapy that really challenges someone to change their way fo thinking may also brinbg to teh fore any underlying "issues".
it hink you should step back, let him do this course, maybe continue to see him on your own without the kids if you so wish. see what he comes out of the course with...if he continues to be angry with his ex then he has a problem.
if he willing to do whatever it takes to see his kids and approaches with a open mind...hmmm .
(my ex went on this type of course and came out with a lot of arrogance: "well i am a model of good behaviour! i never really beat you up! some people on that course really beat up their women..." he really didnt learn much about all forms of abuse... or take any responsibility for eg smashing things in front of children (I had provoked him, so he was justified) pushing and shoving (what's wrong with that? at least i didnt really harm you" ..he came out saying everything he had done was totally justified.)
"He and his ex argued and threw things at each other etc" so what has he learned form this? what will he learn from the course?
For one, you cannot be sent on one as such. DVPP have intake assessments that establish if the guy is actually willing to change (at least in words, obviously...) and will refuse men who are uncooperative. Secondly, a fact finding hearing in a family court case is different from criminal proceedings. People don't get charged or convicted in family law cases. What happens are finding of fact hearings based on balance of probabilities (or a similar term): the judge hears both parties being cross-examined and decides who he thinks is more credible, based on their testimony and other evidence (SS papers, professional assessments). The more serious the allegation, the more proof the judge will need to make a finding. But it is not about 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' that the person did it (say 99% certainty), but rather 51%.
Oops, massive cross post. My post was in response to strawberrykisses.
He's not angry at his ex. He says he understands why she left him, that the relationship bought out the worst in both of them, and that losing the woman he loved and his DC brought home to him that he needed to examine himself and how he reacted to and coped with various things in his life. It was after this that he sought counselling, anger management etc.
He has learned that screaming at one another is not constructive, that the best way to deal with conflict is to take time apart to calm down and think and then to have a proper conversation when everyone is calm. He has learned that his behaviour was unacceptable and that he has to take responsibility for the consequences of his actions.
I don't know what he will learn from the course.
MyPetLizard in response to the title of this thread, the DVPP means that you should step back from him until he has done the work he needs to do and comes back to you. If he has already done counselling and anger management, he should be able to understand why you cannot be with him whilst he's going through this process.
Carry on with your life with your children, and see what he brings with him when the DVPP is finished.
So anger management - that would suggest he was not in control of his temper?
I think he has red flags all over him - a veritable bunting. I would run for the hills if I were you. You won't though - you will justify his behaviour and minimize it. Until the cracks start to show.
Remember long time ago after being in rs for while my lovely bf slipped aut admitting putting his hands around his ex gf neck in argument
Two years in line he did it to me in argument
Because I've dare to have different opinions
ok so if he has learned and changed then he can be a model student on the course even mentor and tell the cohorts what he has already learned ...
he has been ordered to do it as condition, so he should go off and do it.
if there are no worries concerns then any interview or assessment your side from ss will just be formality.
so what does it mean for you and dc - nothing, in that case... (if something were to happen in future tho then obviousy it would be on record)
nonetheless...it could bring up feelings of anger? so let him go thru this.
if he comes back from each session horrified at what others recount, horrified that he ever let things get so bad with his ex - then you can make your own conclusion.
OP, why did you come on here if you KNOW he's so fine?
OP if your DCs are your primary concern, why have you allowed them to have become so involved with your boyfriend that they already 'adore' him, when you have only been together 9 months and there are issues surrounding DV and contact with his own children?
I couldn't get involved with somebody with all that baggage/drama/red flaggage when I have DCs.
But we are not being asked by YOU, are we MyChild.
I hate it when people say things like that - it is as though you are looking down on the OP.
basgetti my children already knew him as we have been friends since primary school. Also, I don't believe that introducing my kids to my partner means that they are not my primary concern.
Well you wouldn't have needed to start a thread concerned about potential SS involvement if you hadn't exposed them to him so early on in your relationship would you?
Basgetti That's a bit of a weird comment - she's said they already knew him.
Yes they already knew him. I'm sure lots of people know him. But the DCs now know him in the context of a relationship hence the concern.
May I ask, OP, how he and his ex split? Did she leave initially, with the kids, or did he? Is he paying child support?
It's encouraging that he's learned to take time out when angry. Ideally he would go much further than this, though. Does he speak negatively about his ex, and about other women, even in a joking sort of way? How's his driving behaviour?
Oh god I was in your shoes once. Lovely DP, his poor psycho ex. All lovely and wonderful.
Maybe he has changed his spots, but god I'd be running a mile with that load of baggage he's got.
After one abusive relationship already, knowing what harm can potentially occur, there is just no need to even contemplate the clear risk associated with this man.
There is something deep rooted in you wanting to have a happy ending with an abusive man. And I can bet my bottom dollar you have not provided all the details of what he was accused of on this thread.
YOU ARE MINIMISING.
She left him for another man.
He doesn't speak badly of his ex at all. He thought the world of her and says she's an amazing mum. He says they both changed a lot during their time together and grew apart and they should have split sooner. He pays maintenance and always has, without fail. He doesn't speak negatively about women.
It's not so much that he takes time out when angry, because its not just when he is angry, he feels (as do I) that taking time to actually think about any dispute, even if its not a huge thing that's made him, me or anyone else, angry means that when you come back to talk about it you can resolve it more constructively.
He doesn't paint her as a psycho, and I'm sure she's not.
Some people are just badly suited to one another.
I can't understand why a man with such healthy ways of dealing with conflict as you paint him here would be ordered by a family court to complete a domestic violence perpetrators course.
he has you fooled, OP. You will learn this the hard way I think.
Wow OP, he sounds amazing !
actually it looks like you massively backpedalling now ....
If he really is peachy clean then you have NOTHING to fear re ss involvement, your kids, his kids etc etc ....
So if he's all good, dont worry !!
However, if you are honest to yourself ask yourself why is it that you have had previous abusive relationship, and now in a relationship that has been described a abusive by the ex ????
Nothing predicts behaviour as well as past behaviour ....
I fear in this scenario this applies to you - victim
Him - perpetrator.
Time will tell,
In the meantime, I hope SS DO keep an eye on your kids wellbeing.
DanceParty errm, the OP asked for opinions on what it means for her DCs. I told her how I felt about it as someone with my own DCs. You seem a bit touchy .
OP, it sounds a bit strange that his ex has lied, accused him falsely of abuse and prevented contact with his kids when he's done nothing wrong, and yet he describes her as an amazing mum.
I'm a bit confused by this DVPP group being 'ordered' by a civil court. Who is it that actually runs it?
I ask as the woman who will contact you will be a "Womens Safety Worker" and they have a role to play where there has been a conviction and sentence in a criminal court. Are you absolutely sure he wasn't convicted? The WSW will ensure you know all of the details.
Domestic Violence perpetrator Programme.
Why would a non perpetrator in SS / cafcass / courts eyes be offered a place on a course like this ?????
thanks Schmoozer - not aware of that programme.
Still your question "why would a non-abuser be referred" stands.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
You might want to report that last post.
I will be cautious, I will talk to DP over the next week about how I need to keep my DC safe, and tell him we need to step back from our relationship while he does the DVPP. I have been his friend for a long time so I will be in contact with him, but I think I will ensure we only see each other as part of a group Etc. At the end of the day if he truly is a changed person and if the relationship really wasn't abusive as has been made out then he will be understanding. If we really love each other and want to be together then 6 months, a year, whatever, shouldn't be a problem. And if we meet other people in the meantime then clearly we weren't meant to be.
Some posters have been a little harsh to me I feel, but I appreciate that you felt you had to challenge my faith in DP. I would do the same. I just find it difficult to believe a man I have known for twenty years can have fooled me the whole time.
I love my DC more than anything in the world and I will always protect them. My DP has never so much as raised an eyebrow to them, but he will understand why I need to take time to ensure that they are growing up safely.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Op, i totally admire your last post.
i really hope it all works out for, you sound like your heart is in the right place, and that you put the kids before your relationship
Best of luck with all,
Take care xxx.
But Strawberrykisses posted earlier in the thread questioning the OP
mcmooncup no I'm not
I have loved DP for as long as I remember, as my best friend all through school, and now as a partner, but my love for my DC is part of me. I don't want to, or intend to break up with DP if he remains the same man I know and love, but it is probably best if he works through the programme and any issues without it impacting upon my little family unit. We are happy now, me and the DC together, and I won't jeopardise that for a relationship. If after the DVPP we can talk about what he learned etc and he doesn't feel it was a waste of time then we can think about restarting our relationship. I think that will be the test, because even if the relationship wasn't as his ex says, he admits that he lost his temper and was aggressive (the shouting and throwing things), so he can and should take something from the programme.
We waited twenty years to become a couple, we can wait a little longer if we need to. It makes me feel sad, and I will miss the closeness we have, but I can only win surely? Either it is fine and we get back on track or its not fine and I've had a lucky escape.
I'm feeling a bit upset about it all, I think I'll have a glass of red before I have an early night.
I still believe him.
But all your responses remind me of what I'd tell a friend in the same circumstances and as such, I ought to make him earn my trust.
Once again op, well
Done for thinl
My ex would tell the world how wonderful I am. He'd wax lyrical to everyone.
Didn't mean a thing to me. I was the one that suffered 10 yrs of his poison, culminating in agoraphobia and a therapy bill.
No man is referred to a perp programme for no reason. They cost thousands.
I repeat, no non-abusive man would be ordered to attend a DV programme if they were not an abuser.
You have no
fucking clue who this man is and what he's capable of.
Why even risk it? Why risk your life? That of your dc?
Is it your belief OP that your DP acted abusively but out of character at the end of his relationship and has now changed?
Also, surely you know his ex-w if you know him so well.....so have you ever spoken to her about the 'alleged' abuse?
My Ex is also very clever to tell all the relevant people what an amazing mother I am. And how wonderful a person I am. It makes him look even more like a normal sane man who simply can't understand why all these nasty things are being said about him.
I'm glad you are taking a step away now OP.
Well thought through, MyPetLizard. I wish you strength & sense
I, too, was thinking you must have known the pair of them, and their marriage, quite well?
... Mind you, everyone who knew us was convinced by his picture of me as a raging nutter! Nobody knows what happens in private ...
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