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Girlfriend careless with mini pill

(345 Posts)
concern3d Wed 01-Jan-14 16:21:48

I would greatly appreciate some input into my situation so I can try and work out whether or not I'm over thinking things.

My girlfriend is taking Cerelle. I have done a lot of reading about this and understand that it should be taken at the same time every day in order to be ~99% effective at preventing pregnancy.

However, my girlfriend is adamant that the '12 hour window' means she can take it any time within a 12 hour period. She has chosen 7am to 7pm. She therefore takes it whenever she remembers between these hours.

I have explained to her my understanding of how it should be used, but she is insistent that she has been using it for a long time and has been assured by a doctor that her use of the mini pill is fine.

We have had a number of conversations about this, which always end in hard feelings. What should be a discussion turns into an argument.

We have only been using the mini-pill for contraception as I trusted she was using it correctly. However, over the past few weeks as I have got to know more about her attitude towards and practice of contraception, I am concerned that we should be using a second method.

I feel as though I have no control over the situation and am placing all my trust in her. I am nowhere near in a position to have a child at the moment - either financially, or in terms of maturity. Additionally, we have not been dating for long. I would appreciate your opinions on the situation.

Bakerof3pudsxx Wed 01-Jan-14 16:23:04

Use a condom then

pepperrabbit Wed 01-Jan-14 16:24:32

I would take the pack to the pharmacist, together, and get that clarified. Then you'll both hear the advice at the same time and you can choose how to protect yourselves thereafter.

Juno77 Wed 01-Jan-14 16:24:44

You are joking right? Use a bloody condom, or stop having sex.

cathpip Wed 01-Jan-14 16:25:28

Errrr, condom!

FalalalalalalaFiggy Wed 01-Jan-14 16:25:50

Use a condom if you don't trust her to get it right.

SantyClaws Wed 01-Jan-14 16:25:57

Yes it would be very sensible to put a hat on it if you have concerns.

EdithWeston Wed 01-Jan-14 16:27:50

"I am concerned that we should be using a second method."

Condoms would be a suitable second method, and one you can start to use immediately.

Two methods is a sensible thing if PG would be disastrous.

MaeveBehave Wed 01-Jan-14 16:27:59

Wear a condom 100% of the time then.

Women the shitty end of the stick; having all the responsibilityvand then the blame in the event of a pregnancy.

So take more responsibility.

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 16:28:32

You are responsible for your contraception and sexual health, she is responsible for hers - which translates as "use a condom!"

You do have to take the mini pill (progestogen only pill) at the same time every day - see the FPA guidelines here www.fpa.org.uk/contraception-help/progestogen-only-pill-pop
Does she want to be pregnant, do you think?

lilyaldrin Wed 01-Jan-14 16:29:19

Let her take care of her contraception, and you take some responsibility for yours. No problem.

SlightlyDampWellies Wed 01-Jan-14 16:33:58

what everyone else says,

FWIW, I use Cerelle, and my GP told me exactly what your GF's GP told her. The reason why I took this one is because I have a frenetic life and often forgot to take a previous type within a smaller window.

use a condom. Get off her back (no pun intended) and don't be so damned patronising.

HTH

Finola1step Wed 01-Jan-14 16:36:34

Use a condom. Every time. You have equal control over your sexual health and it is your responsibility to make sure that you do not conceive a child if this is not what you want. No man or woman needs to relinquish control of their fertility and child rearing status. This is bonkers.

From what I know, the mini pill should be taken pretty much at the same time of day, every day. The 12 hour window is there for the very occasional forgetfulness. You would then take your next pill at the usual time. So, if you usually take your pill at breakfast time and forget but remember at lunchtime, that's fine if its very occasional. You would then take your next pill at breakfast time the next day, not move it to lunch time.

Good advice to both go along to the pharmacist or your local family planning centre and hear the advice together. The FPC will often give out free condoms as well. It sounds like you really need them.

TheRobberBride Wed 01-Jan-14 16:37:12

If you don't trust her then use a condom.

sunbathe Wed 01-Jan-14 16:39:28

Was coming on here to say use a condom. But I see that's been covered.

DoingItForMyself Wed 01-Jan-14 16:40:53

Even with a 99% effectiveness rate that means that for every 100 women using it correctly for a year, one will get pregnant.

By adding condoms into the mix you can be assured that you are both doing all you can to prevent pregnancy. If even the slightest chance of pregnancy is too much then the only answer is abstinence.

eurochick Wed 01-Jan-14 16:41:09

"I feel as though I have no control over the situation"

So take control - put a condom on your cock.

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 16:43:05

Was coming on here to say use a condom. But I see that's been covered

As it were grin

What everyone else said.

If you're that against a pregnancy and think she's using the pill wrong the why on earth wouldn't you be using one already?

FreeAtLastAtLongLast Wed 01-Jan-14 16:43:56

Don't be silly, put a condom on your willy

Musicaltheatremum Wed 01-Jan-14 16:44:18

Cerelle is slightly different to the other mini pills. The other ones have to he taken within an hour or two of the previous day.
Cerelle(cerazette) has a longer window of safety but I always recommend take it at the same time. Otherwise you are more likely to forget it.
I would think she would be a good candidate for the implant. (Nexplanon)

sunbathe Wed 01-Jan-14 16:44:47

grin

Peekska Wed 01-Jan-14 16:44:49

I was also coming on to post "use a condom".
I'm not really clear what other advice you want, because you using a condom should be pretty obvious under these circumstances as you've described them.
Use a condom and talk again to your girlfriend about your concerns

SlightlyDampWellies Wed 01-Jan-14 16:46:08

Sorry for being snippy earlier OP, but yes, what everyone else said. You have a responsibility too, it is not just hers.

gamerchick Wed 01-Jan-14 16:46:59

I probably wouldn't come back on saying you don't like condoms if I were you grin

gamerchick Wed 01-Jan-14 16:50:11

And if you haven't been together long.. you have both been for sti checks before going bare back right?

Waltons Wed 01-Jan-14 16:52:04

Show her this

Tablets must be taken every day at about the same time so that the interval between two tablets always is 24 hours.

And use a condom.

sparklysilversequins Wed 01-Jan-14 16:53:17

She's not being careless, she's using it the way her GP has told her to. She should try to take it at the same time but does have a 12 hour window.

cerelle

Not sure why you couldn't google it yourself. I hope she isn't one of the few that contraception fails for, I have a feeling you wouldn't be too sympathetic.

joanofarchitrave Wed 01-Jan-14 16:53:28

TBH my version of this would be 'if you don't trust her, stop having sex with her'. If she's already playing fast and loose with your life and opinions, and not respecting your very sensible needs in life, she's not necessarily someone you should spend your time with.

ToffeeOwnsTheSausage Wed 01-Jan-14 16:53:28

Don't be so silly, of course you have control over the situation. You can say condom or no sex. If you are shagging someone you don't trust it is a bit pathetic.

HECTheHeraldAngelsSing Wed 01-Jan-14 16:53:30

Hmm, I am concerned about the risk of pregnancy. As a man, what to do what to do what to do
it's a toughie, I grant you.

BertieBowtiesAreCool Wed 01-Jan-14 16:56:45

She's obviously happy with the way she is taking it, so I agree with the others. If you're not happy then you need to use another form of contraception. Or, it's a dealbreaker really.

If it was the other way around and a woman posted saying "My boyfriend won't use condoms properly, I'm worried" then she'd be told to take the pill or leave him.

Pregnancy is not something you want to mess around with if you're not ready for it - it can and will change your whole life, forever. So if you're not happy with the risk as you see it, stop taking it.

duchesse Wed 01-Jan-14 17:03:06

If you're not fully confident your girlfriend is using her contraception effectively, you need to use some as well. How about condoms?

Therefore, I agree with you about the second contraception.

Inkblinkandmustard Wed 01-Jan-14 17:03:59

Cereals does have a 12 hour window, one of the reasons it's used more often than the other POPs now (GP)

Inkblinkandmustard Wed 01-Jan-14 17:04:26

Not cereals clearly, silly autocorrect

If you haven't been dating long have you both been tested for STIs before forgoing condoms? It doesn't sound like this situation has been well thought out, it would be advisable for a man who definitely doesn't want to have a baby to use condoms, every time.

concern3d Wed 01-Jan-14 17:08:42

When I mentioned using a second method, I obviously meant condoms.

I was looking for advice as to whether or not you think I have cause for concern in this situation, or am overreacting. I was just curious as to how others would view the situation.

I have only now come to the realisation that there's potentially a serious problem with our choice/method of contraception and am clearly on the case to sort it out.

Although I appreciate the responses, quite a number have been pretty unhelpful and, dare I say it, rude. Why the attitude problem from a number of you?

Waltons Wed 01-Jan-14 17:11:37

Because you said this: I feel as though I have no control over the situation and am placing all my trust in her.

concern3d Wed 01-Jan-14 17:12:58

That should read: I feel as though I had HAD NO control over the situation and HAVE placed all my trust in her.

concern3d Wed 01-Jan-14 17:13:43

This is in hindsight of course.

HowManyMincePies Wed 01-Jan-14 17:14:02

The attitude is that you were abdicating responsibility for your fertility onto another person.

The only person with control over you not having a child is you. No one else. Especially not someone you have not been dating long.

If she got pregnant you would be saying it was her fault for not taking her contraception correctly not your fault for not ensuring your own.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 17:17:03

He IS taking responsibility by asking for guidance on here. Here is a man saying he wants to produce unwanted unafforded children and some of you are having a go at him?

Would some of you like it if 'take some responsibility' was parrotted at you every time you posted a thread asking for guidance about some bloody aspect of caring for your children?

Jeez there are a few aggressive posts on here.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 17:17:06

I think you're unfair expecting to not get a woman pregnant when you know you aren't using condoms. Precisely because you can have no control over another person taking hormonal contraception. If you have only now realised that not using condoms may equal a baby and she is not pregnant then no harm done and lesson learned.

Just use condoms from now on.

How or what she takes or doesn't take is none of your business really.

You're both responsible for your own contraception.

I have never understood why men are so willing to rely on women to be in charge of the contraception anyway. I would never trust another single soul with my fertility. But then, as a woman, I'm the one who would, quite literally, be left holding the baby.

As others have said, your GF is using her contraceptive correctly. But if if you're worried, take control of your own fertility and use condoms. If you don't want to be parents, it's usually a good idea to use more than one method anyway.

And as to why some people were "rude", I think if you re-read the posts, you'll find it's more that they were blunt in providing the obvious answer.

sparklysilversequins Wed 01-Jan-14 17:17:17

I think it's your accusatory tone that irritated me. As you can see she is using it correctly and therefore not being "careless". Using a condom does seem to be the obvious solution to your concerns, I just detect a mistrustful undercurrent to your posts, which makes me wonder why you are with this person at all?

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 17:17:24

Especially in a new relationship.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 17:19:46

There is an attitude problem Concern because unfortunately some MNers project their feelings onto people who do not deserve it.

I took responsibility for my contraception because it affected my body, not his. If my DH had posted on here asking a genuine question no doubt he'd have got the same shitty response "why are you putting it all on her" when in fact behind the scenes that is not the case at all.

BertieBowtiesAreCool Wed 01-Jan-14 17:20:09

We can't answer as to whether she's using the contraception correctly, it's not a great idea to get medical advice from the internet. Somebody might well say "I took it like that and I was fine!" but that doesn't mean anything either.

Posters are just people and while somebody might happen to be an expert on contraception or a doctor or have lots of experience with this particular drug you can't know somebody is just because they say so on an internet forum.

I tend to take mine at roughly the same time every day rather than at a set time which I am happy with according to the research I have done.

"I have only now come to the realisation that there's potentially a serious problem with our choice/method of contraception and am clearly on the case to sort it out."

But don't you think it would be better to talk to HER about this? If you're not happy with her response or you don't trust her research, judgement etc then you have a pretty serious problem. For a long term relationship it would be a dealbreaker, for a short term or more casual relationship or if you're not yet at the stage where you can trust her implicitly like this then you need to take it into your own hands and use condoms.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 17:20:38

Yes it was the accusatory tone in conjunction with the abdication of your own responsibility.

Really, this is not a dilemma and I don't know why you are here unless you're trying to humiliate her I don't know why you wouldn't just use a condom and/or google to check the correct method of using her pill.

BertieBowtiesAreCool Wed 01-Jan-14 17:21:59

It's perfectly fine, BTW, to disagree with how she's interpreted advice she's been given etc but at the end of the day you either trust her to do it or you take additional methods.

HECTheHeraldAngelsSing Wed 01-Jan-14 17:24:36

If you dont want people to point out the obvious, then dont say that you have no control over something that you patently have total control over.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 01-Jan-14 17:27:16

What she does or doesn't do with her pills should be irrelevant to you.

YOU are no in a position to support a child right now, so YOU must do your best to make sure that doesn't happen.

That means condom every time if you are going to have PIV sex.

I'm not surprised you feel out of control, that's what you've essentially relimquished by putting YOUR fertility at the mercy of someone else.

If she gets pregnant, you get NO SAY in what happens next.

Now is your time to make a decision about whether you are going to ejaculate inside a woman you haven't been dating long.

ToffeeOwnsTheSausage Wed 01-Jan-14 17:28:25

No one has been rude but if they had that would be the least of your worries if you are shagging someone you can't trust, don't feel you can talk to her about contraception and could potentially end up fathering a child by someone you barely know.

K8Middleton Wed 01-Jan-14 17:31:02

Has anyone suggested a condom?

<runs away>

IsItMeOr Wed 01-Jan-14 17:32:49

You're getting attitude because it sounds as if you have already had sex with your girlfriend, and it is a bit late to be worrying about this now.

The safest approach is to start off using a condom, then you can clarify your respective attitudes towards risk as your relationship develops further.

Don't people get taught this at school these days?

concern3d Wed 01-Jan-14 17:36:34

I don't really have the time or inclination to bother responding to all your posts. I will simply bow out of this conversation rather than inflame it any further.

I will say however, that this is the first and last time I will bother using mumsnet. I had heard good things about this website in the press/media, but now I see it's populated by a number of rather unhelpful, militaristic women who think of themselves, and only themselves.

You seem to forget there are two people within a relationship who together are responsible for their fertility. Many of you obviously think very little of men generally, and very much have a 'me'/'us women' against the world attitude to life.

I thank those of you who responded with helpful and supportive posts.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 17:38:44

Yes, it's all the fault of the women, nothing you did or said at all(!) Interesting response...

duchesse Wed 01-Jan-14 17:39:43

You seem to forget there are two people within a relationship who together are responsible for their fertility.

erm, yes, that's exactly what we're all saying. So you are as responsible as your GF for contraception and therefore should definitely be using 2 methods of contraception if you're not ready to be parents. I really don't understand why you're taking umbrage at having that confirmed.

duchesse Wed 01-Jan-14 17:41:01

I think you're cross because you were wrong about the 12 hour window and thought you could have a bit of righteous indignation about how slap-happy she was being, only to realise (confirmed by a GP below) that you were wrong all along.

Would you go paddling in the rain without wellies and expect your feet to stay dry?

ALittleStranger Wed 01-Jan-14 17:42:29

Wow, did everyone manage to miss the OP raising the idea of condoms in the original post?

Use the condom. If like many people she hates them it will encourage her to be more responsible about her contraceptive use, or do more to reassure you that her method is still safe.

IsItMeOr Wed 01-Jan-14 17:42:42

Wow, you're not really getting it, are you?

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 01-Jan-14 17:43:40

"You seem to forget there are two people within a relationship who together are responsible for their fertility."

NO!

Please, please don't think that this is true.

It really, really is NOT true.

Not unless you're in a committed relationship where you are planning to have children either immediately or soon and a pregnancy would not be a disaster.

YOU are solely responsible for YOUR fertility. SHE is solely responsible for her own.

If you really don't want babies then you need to make sure you don't put your swimmers where they might find themselves meeting an egg.

I really worry that boys are being brought up to think that they can push all responsibility for fertility onto girls because apart from being silly it's very much against their own interests.

IF this girls you are dating should not find the idea of pregnancy as appalling as you do and not be too worried about making sure no accidents happen, you are FUCKED if she gets pregnant.

Once that happens you are over a barrell - you get no say on anything and you will be legally and financially responsible for any baby born.

Really, really, really think again about this ridiculous notion that there can be JOINT responsibility here.

Look after yourself. You owe it you and any child inadvertently conceived because you weren't paying enough attention.

ToffeeOwnsTheSausage Wed 01-Jan-14 17:45:36

Poor love, don't think you are ready for a sexual relationship. Best stay at home with your comics. Or something.

newsflash - men and women are equal. Until it comes to pregnancy.

ALittleStranger Wed 01-Jan-14 17:47:22

Joinyourplayfellows all of that is true but I would be majorly hacked off if a BF announced he was going to wear condoms because he didn't trust me to take the pill. I'd want to know why he didn't trust me or why he thought I was dim enough to screw up my medication. Actually an ex did want to do this once but it was because he wanted out and was freaking out at the idea that anything could happen to keep us together.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 17:47:41

I don't blame you Concern

curlew Wed 01-Jan-14 17:49:39

"You seem to forget there are two people within a relationship who together are responsible for their fertility. Many of you obviously think very little of men generally, and very much have a 'me'/'us women' against the world attitude to life."

I think enough of men to think that they are perfectly capable of taking responsibility for their own fertility and sexual health. Which they should do. If you are not 100% happy with the precautions your partner is taking then take your own. I would say this whether you were a man or a woman.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 17:49:39

And as for the 'trying to humiliate' post.

Really????

The amount of threads on here with some pretty intimate details of the posters private life and you think the OP is trying to humiliate his GF?

That has got to be right up there in the top ten projection charts.

curlew Wed 01-Jan-14 17:51:29

"Joinyourplayfellows all of that is true but I would be majorly hacked off if a BF announced he was going to wear condoms because he didn't trust me to take the pill."

Would you? How bizarre. So you would be pissed off if a man behaved like a responsible adult?

ToffeeOwnsTheSausage Wed 01-Jan-14 17:51:36

People have tried to help you.

You have been very rude back.

Who is the one out for themselves there? hmm

ALittleStranger Wed 01-Jan-14 17:53:37

Yes Curlew I would be pissed off if a BF said he didn't trust me or thought I was an idiot. Not an unusual reaction I think. The pill plus STD screening is responsible, I'm not going to start going behind someone's back to steal their sperm.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 17:53:43

Err, he didn't start with the abruptness actually.

And what was said upthread was true, Op was considering and/or actually using condoms.

This site is really shitty at the moment.

Dinnaeknowshitfromclay Wed 01-Jan-14 17:55:56

I don't think the posters on here are only concerned with themselves and only themselves OP. I think they are concerned about a child being born with parents that don't want to be parents and are telling you something that as another poster put it, you should have learned at school. Flounce off by all means but don't blame others for your flouncing!

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 17:57:56

Erm yes because as the rest of that post said I can't understand what other reason a man would come onto the mn relationships board to apparently complain about such a non-issue.

Man doesn't want a baby, man wears a condom.

I don't think it is unreasonable to suspect he's trying to drag MN into his argument with his gf about how she should take responsibility for his fertility in order to humiliate her... Otherwise, why post?

Why should MN be used as argument fodder by someone who seems to be rather dodgily expecting their new partner to shoulder all the responsibility of preventing pg in their new relationship.

EdithWeston Wed 01-Jan-14 18:01:29

I was more concerned (especially as OP chose to post in 'Relationships' not 'Family Planning') is where he says that discussions about contraception end invariably in rows.

That is not a sign of good communication in a relationship.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 18:01:55

MN is used as a source of information and support by all sorts of folk who were all new at one point.

God forbid he wasn't aware of the way some MNers forensically dissect every word (and some unwritten) of posts and then project all kinds of negativity onto it.

If you are all so concerned about the site being used for the 'correct' purposes then you'd better pull a night shift in order to check upon and comment on all other similar threads. Because I suspect you are 'being dragged into arguments' rather more times than you are aware of.

Piss poor.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 18:05:22

I dare say this maze of a site results in some newbies not ending up on the right board maybe?

Maybe he wanted guidance on how to uncover and thus tackle the underlying issues in his relationship. Not everybody is blessed with such crystal clear insight as some of the posters on here hmm.

That isn't going to happen now is it? And if you are all so concerned about the GF's welfare/wellbeing, surely you've missed a chance to potentially make things a little easier/better for her (and him) because of your need to be arsey?

Well supportive of her, some of you.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 18:05:44

Ok, let's not bother being concerned about being used as a stick to beat someone else with then(!)

Alittlestranger maybe you should reevaluate that position. Any man has the right to use condoms if they choose to, it shouldn't be taken as an insult.

cakebar Wed 01-Jan-14 18:11:10

I think advice to the OP has been covered. On the point of "You seem to forget there are two people within a relationship who together are responsible for their fertility." - I will be teaching my ds to always take responsibility for himself and not to go unprotected until he actively wants to have a child. An individual should take responsibility for themselves or they have themselves to blame should the unexpected happen. I suspect everyone knows a man who feels he was 'trapped'.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 18:11:11

You are making some pretty left field assumptions and we have missed the chance to maybe help.

We are not born equipped with a knowledge of the MN posting style, none of us.

ALittleStranger Wed 01-Jan-14 18:12:18

Well Erikur when I finally meet that one mythical man who is chomping at the bit to carry on using condoms I will reevaluate.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 18:13:30

He ISN'T going unprotected!

Enormous assumptions being made about who made what decision to use the mini pill and whether GF wanted the control or if it was left to her.

The OP went as far as coming on here for advice regarding contraception they both made a decision to use and he is now worried that he should use something else too and you accuse him of not taking responsibility?

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 18:22:37

Is that because he's not taking responsibility and he's projecting the blame for that onto his gf and trying to micromanage the hormonal contraception she is taking?

He isn't protected. As has been said up thread, there is no such thing as a joint decision about contraception in a new relationship. You each take responsibility for your own fertility and if you haven't done that don't expect any control over whether pregnancy results.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 18:24:30

FGS in my marriage recently because we really didn't want any more children I was taking the combined pill and he was using condoms. Just relying on someone else taking the mini pill when babies would be a disaster is very irresponsible.

TheFabulousIdiot Wed 01-Jan-14 18:26:14

I think people may have been hard on the op but that may be partly because it seems like such an odd thing to ask for advice about.

FetaCheeny Wed 01-Jan-14 18:26:56

OP good on you for posting and asking advice.
you are right to be concerned - taking the pill 'anytime between 7 and 7 isn't the best way to ensure it works. There may be a 12 hour window but GP's advise trying to aim for a certain time each day.
I assume you made the decision together to rely on the pill, as many couples do, but if you are adamant you couldn't cope with a child right now then using a second method is necessary. Even if used correctly no pill is 100% effective.

So in answer to your question, I don't think you are over-reacting.

I wish more men were this responsible, there would be far less women left holding the baby, or coerced into unwanted abortions.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 18:27:28

Of course there can be joint responsibility in a new relationship! What a strange thing to say. Do you really have an intimate knowledge of everyone's relationships? based upon what you have read on MN

I had a discussion w/ my now DH because it was imperative that I did not conceive. We later decided upon my sterilisation.

Timetoask Wed 01-Jan-14 18:30:30

OP - well done for asking for advice and trying to be responsible about avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. Mumsnet can be a vipers nest sometimes.

Use good quality condoms EVERY SINGLE TIME.

SlightlyDampWellies Wed 01-Jan-14 18:33:44

I was snippy in my response, which is unlike me. As someone said upthread, it was the accusatory tone. The use of the word 'careless'. That offended me on behalf of the GF. She went to the GP, she was taking the advice of the GP but that was not apparently good enough. So I reacted to that. [shrug]

BillyBanter Wed 01-Jan-14 18:51:42

Here is the thing that all men need to understand.

If women do not want to get pregnant they can choose to abstain from sex.
If they choose to have sex they can choose not to bother with contraception and trust to luck
Or they have a variety of methods of birth control they can use: they can get and trust the man to wear a condom, and use it effectively or go on the pill etc. some are more or less in her or his control.
If the chosen method or methods fail she can choose to have an abortion.

If men do not want to father a child they can abstain from sex.
If they do have sex they can not bother with contraception and trust to luck
Or they can leave the contraception up to the woman and trust she is taking sufficient care
Or they can choose to use a condom which is more in their control. Or a combination of contraception methods.
If their chosen method or methods of contraception fail they are out of choices.

The only sure way to avoid all possibility of pregnancy is abstinence. You don't want that and nor do most people over a certain age. Sex is really rather pleasant and fun after all.

Men's choices end at the point their penis enters the vagina. If you are concerned that your current method does not reduce the risk of pregnancy to a level you are comfortable with then wear a condom.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 18:57:44

Ah I see you're defensive about your own choice for you to be sterilised.

I'm surprised you can't see that that is actually a prime example of taking individual responsibility for your own fertility? Jointly deciding one of you should be sterilised would be very unwise indeed. These issues are almost always individual decisions in the way that deciding whether to proceed with a pg or not is always the woman's individual choice, because it is her body.

If a man chooses not to protect himself against pg and STIs by using condoms he takes the risk of those things occurring. What his partner is doing, particularly a new partner, is not something he can have control over and therefore the idea of a joint responsibility that involves only one of you taking hormones which rely on proper use by that one person is obviously a fallacy.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 18:59:27

If you've been together a longer time and there is love and trust then you may feel happier not to protect yourself and your decision to place trust in your partner may be more reasonable.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 19:05:14

No not defensive. I honestly cannot see why you would think that. It is perfectly appropriate to make a joint decision in a committed relationship about which one of you should be sterilised.

Can you clarify? Where is my defensiveness?

LadyIsabellasHollyWreath Wed 01-Jan-14 19:13:19

I'd agree that if you really really don't want to be a father then minipill alone isn't good enough even if taken with reasonable care (as the OP's GF appears to be doing).

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 19:21:02

Well, I think it is very ill advised to make a joint decision about one person being sterilised in any relationship. Commitment has to be renewed over time, it isn't something you can guarantee so allowing anyone else to make a joint decision with you about something so potentially life changing is extremely unwise.

That's how men end up begging for vasectomy reversals and people end up totally gutted when their relationship breaks down and feeling they were pressured into sterilisation or are owed a relationship.

If what you've done is make a decision about the impact of sterilisation on yourself in all circumstances then that's an individual decision. One that undoubtedly affects you both and in which you have considered your current relationship, but is still an individual choice. Presumably your husband's decision to not have a vasectomy is based on him not wanting a vasectomy as an individual. That's not a joint decision.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 19:23:10

I mean, I'm sure you'll be aware that it isn't an either or. That female sterilisation is less effective and more risky than male. That there is still a chance of pg with either and therefore a partner of someone who had been sterilised may still want to protect themselves as well.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 19:25:52

No. Using that argument, nobody should ever make the decision to have children because commitment has to be reviewed over time. Nothing more life changing than having children.

My husband has had a Vasectomy that didn't work. He had it again (with some complications) but it unnerved us so much we decided that we would go as far as we could to be sure of no conception. It was a joint decision based upon the mutual inconvenience of worrying for very good reason.

Another pregnancy (sorry it sounds dramatic) would likely be the end of me.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 19:26:51

Sorry for drip feeding too. I always hate it when others do it and here I am doing it! smile

sparklysilversequins Wed 01-Jan-14 19:28:26

Yes definitely no babies needed here. With the OP being such a massive, foot stamping toddler himself, the GF has more than got her hands full!

HanselandGretel Wed 01-Jan-14 19:32:34

It was his first time using the site for goodness sake, I'm not surprised it will be his last with the hounding he got.

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 19:36:17

Agree HanselandGretel - there are some utterly pointless, snippy, point scoring and snidey comments on here which really don't do MN any favours.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 19:36:51

Yes I am even being told that the decision we made jointly are not joint ones by MNers who were clearly privy to all of our discussions smile.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 19:37:01

A commitment (of responsibility for) to your own child is completely different to commitment to a romantic partner. Parent and child are not autonomous equals. The commitment you make is to raise the child, unfortunately it is optional and people do opt out of even that commitment, sometimes after some time.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 19:38:22

You obviously can make it jointly, as I've said but I think that is unwise because it is something that primarily affects you as an individual.

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 19:39:24

Ahh yes - the MNetters who appear to have their ear to the ground of every relationship across the UK. Their all-seeing, all-knowing abilities are truly astounding.

curlew Wed 01-Jan-14 19:50:14

I don't understand what's going on here. The OP is unhappy about the contraception his partner is using. He has discussed it with her, and she has repeated that she is happy with her method. If the OP is not reassured, then he has two choices- either use contraception himself or not have sex. Presumably abstinence is not a option- so he uses contraception. Which he has a perfect right to- and which his girlfriend has to deal with- he is taking responsibility for his own fertility. Good for him.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 19:53:07

Sir

Yes. I thought I heard some heavy breathing in the corner of our bedroom last night. wink

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 19:54:08

grin - it's like having your very own Elf on the Shelf, 365 days of the year

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 19:55:18

It still undermines your point. The autonomy of a child or not is irrelevant to the point of view that you should not make life changing joint decision with a romantic partner because commitment changes.

That applies to all life changing decisions, not just having tubal ligation.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 19:59:15

Of course it still applies. It doesn't undermine the point at all. The point simply being that you make decisions based on what is best for you, if you make them based on your romantic partner's feelings you are likely to regret them. Equally if you choose to offload all the responsibility for contraception onto someone else (which is not what has happened in your relationship by your description) then you have to own that choice and not blame/micromanage them whilst they exercise that responsibility.

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 01-Jan-14 20:04:30

"I would be majorly hacked off if a BF announced he was going to wear condoms because he didn't trust me to take the pill."

So what you are saying is that you would emotionally blackmail a man into having unprotected sex with you and taking your word for it that you are using contraception?

Any man with sense would run a fucking mile from you.

A man who wants to wear a condom should not be browbeaten out of it by some silly bitch who is "offended" that he doesn't "trust" her.

It is absolutely outrageous to insist that another person doesn't use contraception when they have sex with you.

It's because of ridiculous attitudes like yours that we have men in the situation of the OP - feeling unable to assert his own right to contraception within a relationship.

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 20:08:20

The point simply being that you make decisions based on what is best for you, if you make them based on your romantic partner's feelings you are likely to regret them

Nonsense. There comes a point in any relationship when you make decisions jointly, whether it's where to go on holiday, whether to take out a loan, or whether your family is finished and if sterilisation or a vasectomy is the preferred option. That's not to say that one person holds sway over the other, but equally it doesn't mean that you make decisions in isolation.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 20:14:50

I think that's extremely unwise in relation to things like contraception and pregnancy which are things which predominantly affect only one person's bodily autonomy. A joint loan is a joint decision because you're jointly responsible for it and are committing to be jointly responsible for the consequences together. With children you're committing each individually to the child not to each other necessarily although it helps to commit to each other too.

SirChenjin Wed 01-Jan-14 20:16:45

And I don't think it unwise to take joint decisions relating to long term fertility. Each to their own.

ALittleStranger Wed 01-Jan-14 20:22:51

Join it's not unprotected sex, that's the point. And I wouldn't refuse to let a man use a condom if that's what he insisted on, but yes I would be offended and it would make me question our relationship. Trust is essential for me.

And funnily enough no man has run a mile from this attitude. I'm yet to meet a man who isn't very happy to ditch the condoms and move on to the pill.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 20:29:57

I agree with join. I can sort of understand where you're coming from on the trust thing but for me I suppose it is not so important to test trust by risking pregnancy which is why I'm on depo because I don't want to make the risk of pg dependent on trusting my bf to use a condom correctly.

He, as is common, has decided not to use them, he's large and normal ones just don't work. He could buy large sized ones or persevere with ordinary ones, which we have used before. I'd be most unimpressed if he tried interfering in my contraceptive choices or blamed me for a pregnancy which resulted from my contraceptive, which has been very reliable for me in the past, failing. Very unimpressed.

This has however made me want to clarify this with him because he may be labouring under some very different views!

LadyIsabellasHollyWreath Wed 01-Jan-14 20:35:26

Depends on his stated reasoning LittleStranger. If it was "I don't trust you to take it reliably because I think you are flaky/stupid/likely to deliberately miss pills in order to get pg on the sly" then yes that's offensive, especially the last one. If it was "everyone's human and occasionally slips up, and the pill sometimes fails even when used perfectly therefore I will take additional personal precautions to be as safe as possible" then you'd be unreasonable to take offence.

curlew Wed 01-Jan-14 20:36:13

"And I don't think it unwise to take joint decisions relating to long term fertility. Each to their own."

I don't either. But if one person isn't happy with the decision the other person has taken, and other person is not prepared to compromise, then it is for that person to make decisions about their own fertility and sexual health.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 20:38:15

Where on earth did I say I made my decision based upon my partners feelings?

And where was I defensive?

<<thoroughly bemused>>

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 20:41:49

Offred

I don't want to alarm you but I was on Depo when my son was conceived. I was several weeks in, wasn't overweight (dosage had been correctly calculated) and the medics were mystified as to why it had not worked.

I had been using it for 15 months approximately, wasn't late with the dose, wasn't early with the dose. Nothing.

He is now 19!

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 20:47:17

I'm aware depo has a failure rate. I'm not ovulating on it.

Mignonette Wed 01-Jan-14 20:50:29

I didn't think I was either grin. By the time you know you've ovulated, you're pregnant. You wouldn't necessarily know as many of the indicators of ovulation can be suppressed by the actions (albeit inhibited) of residual administered hormones.

Offred Wed 01-Jan-14 20:57:29

I'm aware all methods of contraception a have a similar failure rate. Depo is better than female sterilisation for example. You can't take all the risk of pregnancy out of sex. You have to accept some uncertainty or you have to abstain. Whilst I don't want another baby and it's be quite ill timed, it would not be the end of the world for me so I'm quite happy with the decision I've made - obviously! Or I'd have made a different one!

JoinYourPlayfellows Wed 01-Jan-14 21:20:43

"Join it's not unprotected sex, that's the point."

It's unprotected FOR HIM.

What you are saying is that you will protect yourself as you see fit and he just has to take your word for it.

"Trust is essential for me."

In the context we're talking about, that is really creepy.

It's like insisting that someone puts their own life on the line to prove that they "trust" you.

Before I was ready to have children I wouldn't have trusted ANYONE to take charge of my fertility.

Even if the male pill had been invented I would never have been happy for that to be the contraception that I was relying on not to get me pregnant.

Not because I thought the men I was sleeping with were untrusthworthy liars, but because I needed to KNOW that whatever method was being used was in place. I needed to see it/swallow it. I needed to take MY OWN responsibility for it.

I would have found it incredibly creepy and controlling for a man to insist that I TRUST my own biological safety to him.

If a man wants to make sure he's not getting anybody pregnant, he needs to be able to take responsibility for contraception on his end.

And anyone trying to blackmail him into giving her the bareback sex she thinks she deserves is not behaving at all well towards him.

That many men are stupid about these things doesn't change how fucked up it is to start "questioning relationships" because men want to make sure for themselves that contraception is in place.

OctaviusAce Wed 01-Jan-14 21:28:27

You can't rely on the pill for protection. Any time a bloke has sex, he has to be aware that a pregnancy can result. Therefore by having sex, you're implicitly giving consent for that to happen.

As people have said - a condom is the way to go.

SamU2 Wed 01-Jan-14 22:59:50

Has anyone said use a condom yet??

;)

Joysmum Wed 01-Jan-14 23:24:42

Makes me realise how lucky I am with my hubby. I've been the one to take the lead on what the right contraception was for us. He saw anything I did as the right thing for us and trusted me to get it right. I've only ever gone for the condom method when I'm taking a break from the pill or life situations dictated the pill wasn't going to be as effective. I'll be the first to stand up and say I dont like condoms and as I'm in a long term committed relationship I'm happy to just rely on the pill, and now the coil.

The poor OP is asking what others have been told about this pill as he's considering the need to use an additional method of contraception (and being a man that would be condoms).

I think his best bet would be to seek advice from his family planning clinic or pharmacist to reassure himself or clarify his concerns. From there he can then speak to his girlfriend from a position of knowledge about needing to introduce condoms, or changing what pill or whatever methods would suit them.

He's right though, there's a lot of man haters on this site.

curlew Wed 01-Jan-14 23:34:05

"He's right though, there's a lot of man haters on this site."

Please could you cut and paste anything from this thread that supports that view?

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Wed 01-Jan-14 23:53:38

My teenage sons often hear me talk about Mumsnet.
I've sent them links to threads that they've found useful - uni applications help etc.
If they couldn't talk to me about something, I'd be pretty chuffed if they's had the sense to 'ask Mumsnet'. I have called it hindsight on a website before.

The OP sounded young and relatively inexperienced.

I'd warn mine off this site now tbh. Someone upthread was right. It has gone to shit. Talk about nasty attitudes. Mignonette you're right again

ItsSoooFluffy Thu 02-Jan-14 00:02:44

It's not right when someone comes on looking for a bit of advice and instead gets criticised. Sorry Op that your experience today has put you off using the site again.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 00:09:59

Well don't ask daft questions then.

Everyone gets a pasting when they ask daft questions like Should I Put Milk In The Fridge If I Don't Want It To Go Sour.

Just cos he's a guy doesn't mean he needs to be pandered to anymore than any other dafty

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 00:10:32

Can somebody explain to me in words of one syllable where the nasty attitudes, rudeness and "gone to shit-ness" on this thread is? Because I don't see it.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 00:15:00

I dunno, it seemed to me that he got a bit of a pasting for daring to be confused about what his options were in this situation.

Apparently he should have known that it was entirely his responsibility to make sure he didn't get anyone pregnant.

Despite the fact that on this thread (as on every other of this kind) there were women talking about the way they browbeat men into not using condoms.

The rule seems to be that if you are a man you are simultaneously expected to be responsible for your own fertility, but a total cad and bounder should you attempt to actually take that responsibility into your own hands.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 00:17:20

Apparently he should have known that it was entirely his responsibility to make sure he didn't get anyone pregnant

Um...well of course he should know that. That's pretty basic when you start a sexual relationship surely

gigglestar Thu 02-Jan-14 00:21:32

She doesn't sound very mature or responsible....she's an idiot. Get rid before she traps you into fatherhood....

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 00:22:56

"That's pretty basic when you start a sexual relationship surely"

I don't think it's as basic as it should be, no.

The OP himself seems to have bought into some bollocks about "joint fertility" and more than one woman on this thread has said that she would be affronted by any man who attempted to take responsibility for his own contraception.

There is a common view that a man is ungallant if he doesn't just take a woman's word for it that she has taken care of contraception.

A man asking a woman not to use condoms when she wants to is not considered by most people to be OK.

But a woman asking a man not to use a condom when HE wants to is often considered to be entirely reasonable and any refusal on his part to be unfair and insulting.

Nessalina Thu 02-Jan-14 00:28:51

I gathered from the OP that he already knew he should start using a condom as he had concerns, but wanted some advice as to a) whether he was being unreasonable/paranoid to be concerned, and b) how to broach the issue with his GF if he decided to start wearing them.

To be met with a barrage of 'wear a condom', whilst factually correct, is hardly helpful!! hmm

If they've argued before about her use of the pill, she must have already told him to back off because she thinks she's using it right, in which case him slapping on a condom when he doesn't usually might be seen as an argument starter. I think if I was her I might be a bit put out if he didn't choose his words very carefully!

Something along the lines of, "after we chatted about the pill, I looked some stuff up, and you were right about how you're taking it, sorry to have not believed you. However, I am a bit worried after what I've read that even knowing you're taking it right, it's only 99% effective, so I'd like to double up with condoms if that's ok with you?"

If she says no, she's got to have an ulterior motive?!

PetiteChouette Thu 02-Jan-14 00:34:05

OP, I'm really sorry you've had a bad experience with this site. I'm really not sure what you did to invoke the response you got. But I would agree it was harsh and in some cases rude. (Apologies to all the nice helpful people who responded)

I personally think if a young person (m or f) comes to us with questions that might seem to some a bit naive, we should at least try to be helpful, rather than patronising and unpleasant. This is a guy who wanted to know something about female contraception. And not what's in the PIL. It's someone trying to make sure they are being responsible.

Personally I think everyone should consider if they'd like their kids one day to get responded to like this, if they had a family planning issue.

sparklysilversequins Thu 02-Jan-14 00:34:51

gigglestar it has been established repeatedly that she is using her contraception properly and as directed by a GP. What ARE you on about?

Lairyfights Thu 02-Jan-14 00:45:42

Wow, harsh much! The poor guy, asks for advice and just gets bombarded! Man hating much!

OP, if you're still reading this, you know you have to wear a condom and it's perfectly ok to feel like that. Although it will be a tricky conversation to have with your gf, it is best in the long run. Sit down, just tell her you feel you should be taking more responsibility for your contraception and will start wearing condoms. Reassure her that it's not that you think she's trying to get pregnant, more of a case of wanting to take control of your own actions. If she doesn't want you to wear a condom, make an appointment together with your GP - there are types of contraception (injection, implant) that are long term, that involve no one having to remember to take tablets. Of course these are still in your girlfriends control, but at least by talking about how you feel, what your decision is and offering a compromise if she disagrees you are showing yourself to be a decent bf (IMO).

Good luck!

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 00:49:15

"Wow, harsh much! The poor guy, asks for advice and just gets bombarded! Man hating much!"

Copy and paste a man hating post.

gigglestar Thu 02-Jan-14 00:59:46

She sounds irresponsible and immature....that's what i'm on about.

Lairyfights Thu 02-Jan-14 01:01:08

Man hating was probably the wrong phrase, more condescending. There are a lot of 'well wear a condom then' 'women get the shitty end of the stick' 'take some more responsibility' ... When he clearly is taking responsibility, wanting to have more information and just asking for help.

sparklysilversequins Thu 02-Jan-14 01:04:59

Where does she sound irresponsible and immature? She's talking her contraception as advised by her GP and confirmed as being correct repeatedly on this thread.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 01:08:13

So basically not absolutely agreeing with everything a man says is " man hating". Yep, that sounds like Mumsnet!

Lairyfights Thu 02-Jan-14 01:09:25

No not at all Curlew, I've just admitted I phrased it wrong.

sparklysilversequins Thu 02-Jan-14 01:13:28

He sounded accusatory towards his GP in his OP. He said she was being "careless" yet it's been shown that she is not. When he was told this in the usual MN way and the discussion developed into taking personal responsibility for ones own contraception he stamped his big old feet and stormed off MN vowing never to return calling us rude witches as he went.

Maybe it's just to a bit to harsh for the more gentle souls among us, male or female.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 06:03:16

Hmmm.... Except there aren't any naive questions in his post. He was asking if he was over thinking the issue, said he had already hassled his gf about her contraception, knew he should use a second method. The thread is called "gf careless with mini pill" FFS.

Don't patronise him with all this 'if my son came on...' He got flamed because he was trying to use mumsnet to bring his errant gf into line and there were undertones of this crap about trapping into pg someone else has now brought up. It isn't trapping if you choose not to wear a condom.

If he was young and naive and asking a daft question he would have had a sympathetic response as I've seen many times before.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 06:07:00

And I'd be ashamed if my son had this attitude towards his gf/contraception.

Sharaluck Thu 02-Jan-14 06:11:15

Use condoms and at the same time withdraw before ejaculation.

Male Condoms + Withdrawal = 99.92% effective with perfect use - 95.95% effective with typical use

m.scarleteen.com/article/reproduction/the_buddy_system_effectiveness_rates_for_backing_up_your_birth_control_with_a_s

Sharaluck Thu 02-Jan-14 06:20:03

concern3d i think men often believe they don't have much control over contraception which is untrue. Look at my link above, using condoms and withdrawal at the same time is something men can take full responsibility for. My dh and I used this method for many years with no pregnancies smile it is a shame it is not recommended by healthcare professionals more widely.

EdithWeston Thu 02-Jan-14 07:10:37

Please be very careful t looking at "perfect use" stats - the one yo need is "typical use"

When you withdraw (rapidly and without holding the condom in place) it is not "perfect use" (and it's very easy for condom to come off, and very easy to mistime so ejaculation occurs before the penis is clear of the vagina. Withdrawal - if the man has control every single time - is more effective than people think. But the "typical" use is something like 25% or higher failure.

Dinnaeknowshitfromclay Thu 02-Jan-14 07:33:27

If he did get roasted because he has come across as arrogant, blamey and a bit reckless and MNs in general have probably met their fair share of people like that already! The title of his OP is calling his GF careless when she has not been. He denigrates her 'attitude' over her taking care of her own contraception when she is taking it correctly. He has continued to have sex with her despite thinking she is taking it wrong. He has arguments with her over this even though he could Google it and get the answer in a trice. He says he is putting all his trust in her when he says he doesn't trust her. I can't really see what other response he would get but to be told to take back control himself. Forcefully yes but the response would have been similar if it was a woman coming on here and with that exact post (or as exact as it could be given the different contraceptives available for the sexes) A forceful response is to be expected when the subject matter is a potentially unwanted child ffs!
I suspect what MNetters's expected is at the point the OP is not sure his GF is not taking the pill in the correct manner,TO ACTUALLY FIND OUT, Google it, telephone a pharmacist or any GP surgery. Not keep having sex with her and rows with her about it. I may be wrong but I too do not see man hating on this thread just a bit of exasperation perhaps and good, nay excellent advice.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 08:03:59

Oh, ffs, he didn't get "roasted". He just didn't get treated by everyone as one of the lords of creation.

Men are so used to getting special treatment, and women are so used to giving them special treatment that when they at actually treated like normal human beings who need to take an equal share of responsibilities as well as rights that they feel as if they are being got at. And women leap to their defence.

EdithWeston Thu 02-Jan-14 08:10:08

I don't really see the roasting in this one either.

But I have seen a number of threads where someone asks for advice, gets snippy, accuses all MNers of being rude (or whatever) and then vanishes.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 08:22:38

There was nothing in the thread for him once it became apparent he wasn't getting more responses like gigglestar's IMO. That's why he left because there was nothing to use to beat his gf in the argument.

sparklysilversequins Thu 02-Jan-14 09:21:59

If a woman came on here and said "we use condoms but I think my BF is being careless in the way he puts them on and I feel like I am having to put my trust in him not to get me pregnant blah blah blah". There would have been sparks coming off this thread as people screamed on to tell her to get herself protected with her own method of contraception and ask her WTF she thought she was doing by not having done so already? I think she'd have got a true roasting actually. The MALE OP here got off lightly imo. Curlews post of 8.03 is spot on.

differentnameforthis Thu 02-Jan-14 09:23:11

Not sure why you couldn't google it yourself

To be fair, a lot of stuff asked on here is google-able, but MN wouldn't need to exist if we all googled...

NamasteNatalie Thu 02-Jan-14 09:26:15

OP, I think that if I was a man I would be using a condom all the time to protect my own sexual health and take responsibility for my own fertility i.e. when I want to have kids and of course, when my partner wanted the same thing.

Being on the pill and using a plonker is double protection. Take charge of your own life.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 09:27:12

Actually if a woman came on here with that story I would want to know why she thought she had to "trust" him.

I would be worried about anyone in a sexual relationship who felt they couldn't easily assert their right to look after their own sexual health and fertility.

I would be concerned that she was being bullied into not protecting herself and any moves to do so being seen as proof of her lack of trust.

"There would have been sparks coming off this thread as people screamed on to tell her to get herself protected with her own method of contraception and ask her WTF she thought she was doing by not having done so already?"

That might, unfortunately, be true. But it would be as stupid in that case as it was in this one.

SirSugar Thu 02-Jan-14 09:32:53
sparklysilversequins Thu 02-Jan-14 09:33:37

I agree entirely with all you say join but I don't think for one second that anyone got treated different on the the grounds of their gender.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 09:34:13

I don't think there is an equality between men and women when it comes to pregnancy. I'd be much more concerned about a woman who posted that they couldn't trust their partner to use condoms properly.

Obviously you would advise them to use other contraception too and to leave as the op had on this thread.

However I can't read anywhere in this thread the op asking for advice on what he should do about contraception when he doesn't trust his gf to take her pill properly.

He wanted advice about whether he was overthinking the issue of the proper way of taking the pills. The answer is, from me anyway, tis none of his concern, he cannot ever know or control her pill taking. He can only take some control over his fertility by using condoms. He just wanted to be told he was right about her pill use, most likely so he could attempt to convince her to change the method of contraception she has chosen, otherwise what is the actual issue?

That's not something I support. Hormonal contraception is a very personal choice, I don't like women being pressured into it or pressured into more by men.

sparklysilversequins Thu 02-Jan-14 09:34:34

Differently not different

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 09:38:42

It's stupid to ignore that there are gender differences which impact fertility and contraceptive choices. Men are able to be a little more lax with it precisely because the consequences are not as immediate in their minds and they don't have to actually carry any baby that results.

Still it remains true that there is no real argument. His gf has been given advice by her gp and is happy with the method she uses and the way she uses it. If he isn't and doesn't want a baby he should use condoms. If she objects to that he should not have sex with her. He should not try and pressure her to change her chosen contraceptive method.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 09:40:04

And it's really rubbish to try and use mumsnet to try and achieve that aim too.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 09:43:56

"The answer is, from me anyway, tis none of his concern, he cannot ever know or control her pill taking. He can only take some control over his fertility by using condoms."

Same answer from me.

My answer would be different if it was a woman posting, because it would be a different situation with different risks and possible outcomes.

"Men are able to be a little more lax with it precisely because the consequences are not as immediate in their minds and they don't have to actually carry any baby that results."

This is a big part of the problem, I think.

Lots of boys are being brought up with this attitude, as though it was still the era when they could just walk away from a pregnant woman.

Now that they will be on the hook financially and expected to be involved (and suffer social stigma if they are not) it is really far more important for them to protect themselves since ejaculation is the last point at which they get any say in the matter.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 09:51:00

Men are so used to getting special treatment, and women are so used to giving them special treatment that when they at actually treated like normal human beings who need to take an equal share of responsibilities as well as rights that they feel as if they are being got at. And women leap to their defence.

Yes, I notice this more and more the older I get.

OP sulked off because he wanted everyone to berate his gf for being irresponsible - but they didn't. Instead, they told him to take responsibility himself. He didn't like that because the purpose of his OP was to get ammunition to 'win' his argument with her.

MaeveBehave Thu 02-Jan-14 09:56:45

yes, i agree, if you try and re-draw the lines so that men aren't given an old established privilege, you're instantly called a man-hater by some women, that beggars belief really. I can understand that men want to hold on to all their privileges, even though the intelligent decent ones will (sometimes reluctantly) agree that women get a hard time.

I started a thread here ages ago, prompted by reading comments here, "a woman is 90% responsible for an accidental pregnancy" and although some people roasted me, some people got it and agreed with me, there was a depressingly large number of posters who just said 'yeh'. There attitude was collusion with the responsibility and the blame (and the shame and the practical issues) all falling to the woman. In their book that was just the way. it. was.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 09:58:19

Men can and do walk away from pg all the time. There is nothing which really forces them to pay, it is dependent on the mother chasing for payment and sometimes no-one can make them pay (self employed etc).

IME there is no real stigma either. Child rearing is still seen as the woman's job and the stigma is firmly attached to single mothers not absentee fathers.

MaeveBehave Thu 02-Jan-14 10:05:38

Totally.

The penalty for defying a court order to pay maintenance?

Instead of constantly berating single mothers, I'd like to see those shiny faced politicians implement real penalties for defying court orders to pay maintenance.

I knew of a woman (only through a facebook group) SHE Took a placard to her xh's office with a factual statement on it. WHen he left, that he had not paid a penny maintenance in 28 months. Something like that. SHE ended up getting some sort of caution for slander or defamation. Obviously he channelled a few hundred in to coming down on her like a ton of bricks. She was so scared and put right back in her box.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 10:09:25

And whilst you can be subject to a spurious court case as the parent with care (as I was with xp - magistrate stated he never had cause to bring it in the first place and he wasn't making an order) which in my case lasted 3 years of court hearings and mediation. There is no facility which is equivalent in asserting the child's right to contact with their absent parent.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 10:11:00

And maeve - that's completely shocking.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 10:11:02

If a girl came on to say her bf wasn't using condoms correctly she'd get slapped on the wrist for being cavalier with her life and life chances, basically. Numpty.
For a guy it's slightly different - he's taking the chance with someone else's life which is a step up from numptiness and shades into selfishness.

aurynne Thu 02-Jan-14 10:14:34

So I would be correct in assuming that every single participant on this thread is doubling-up on contraception (unless TTC), because no one should trust their partner in using theirs responsibly?

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 10:15:15

There is a strong trend in the men's rights movement to say that women hold all the cards when it comes to reproductive rights. That men are helpless pawns who have no control at all over their fertility. And this proves that men are the disadvantaged sex. We need to be very watchful that this does not gain mainstream acceptance.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 10:16:33

"So I would be correct in assuming that every single participant on this thread is doubling-up on contraception (unless TTC), because no one should trust their partner in using theirs responsibly?"

Of course not. But if I didn't trust him- as the OP does not trust his partner- then I would

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 10:16:36

I know one guy who basically ran away from his child, has not paid a penny or seen him for 10 years and if he bumps into him on the street (still lives in this town) he actually physically runs away from him.

This guy has not been ostracised in any way by the social group. His ex and the woman who has raised his son for over a decade have however.

Same with my xp, no-one ostracised him for what he did, but they did me.

Same with a friend who was recently subjected to dv by a boyfriend who, unknown to her but known to the social group, had form for hitting every gf he has ever had (she had a black eye) and was told "there are always two sides to every story, we don't want to get involved".

There's no stigma that I can see amongst people of my generation (I'm 29) for leaving a baby when you're a man or sadly for beating up/raping/otherwise abusing women.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 10:19:37

His ex and the woman who raised his son as well as the son himself I should have said!

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 10:19:59

He just didn't get treated by everyone as one of the lords of creation

For fuck's sake curlew, you do like to justify shit don't you? There was nothing of that expectation in anything he said - that's what some of the usual posters wish to imply in order to be as unpleasant as possible as a justification. Whilst his OP and follow up weren't exactly water tight, the sneeryness and plain disdain was apparent from the off. Yes he sounded young (and recognised his own immaturity re being a parent which is a sign of maturity itself) and said he was new to MN, but he obv had no idea about the nasty, stylised, 'group' manner that MN posters like to get into when dealing with particular issues at times. This is where MN doesn't handle RL very well at all.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 10:22:26

Trying to argue your gf into changing her contraception is not RL, or it shouldn't be.

Where has he asked what he should do? He only asked whether he was overthinking the issue of reliability. Probably not over thinking but interfering in something which is not his to interfere in and when the solution is very simple. To take some responsibility himself.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 10:24:15

And he didn't like that advice. There was no roasting before he flounced off. That only really happened after. Yet he flounced off berating the whole of mumsnet anyway... Because he was told to wear a condom and stop being unreasonably interfering in his gf's chosen method of contraception. Just why would that provoke such a dramatic flounce?

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 10:29:11

*"He just didn't get treated by everyone as one of the lords of creation

For fuck's sake curlew, you do like to justify shit don't you?"*

Right back atcha, Pan!grin

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 10:29:43

hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 10:30:35

There's a fair bit in the OP that makes me go all prickly tbh. But this bit:

I have explained to her my understanding of how it should be used, but she is insistent that she has been using it for a long time and has been assured by a doctor that her use of the mini pill is fine.

We have had a number of conversations about this, which always end in hard feelings. What should be a discussion turns into an argument.

Mansplaining to his gf about how to take her hormonal contraception (when she's taking the advice of her GP) - Priceless grin

But that aside, I'm pretty sure the rule of thumb with a new partner is to use condoms, at least at the beginning. Not just have sex bareback and then argue with your gf about her method of contraception.

The real problem with this OP, and many many young men I have spoken to about contraception, is a sense of entitlement. They believe they are entitled to have risk free, condom free sex and they get resentful if they can't have it. All men need to know that condom free sex is never risk free, in fact no sex is. But this message isn't getting through for some reason. The attitude of the OP was astounding, 'I'm in a newish relationship with a woman and I don't trust her to take the pill properly, what shall I dooooooo' and the blindingly obvious solution, take responsibility for your own sexual health, was just barely acknowledged.

Plus the mansplaining. That's just annoying.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 11:02:06

Gods sake Pan EVERYONE gets castigated here when they are cavalier with contraception while simultaneously wringing their hands helplessly.
He got the Cop On advice that everyone gets.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 11:03:29

But Sabrina, this isn't 'mansplaining'. He'd looked at the guidance (also linked to above) and it was contrary to what gf was saying. It isn't him making stuff up because he's a bloke and thinking he knows best because of that fact. Contraceptive experts were telling him this.
Obv using a condom as well is a solution, but as someone indicated above, that shifts the relationship into a trust discussion.
And GPs are not exactly infallible, are they?

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 11:05:15

Has anyone any idea what the OP was expecting people to say? Because it seems to have boiled down to-

"I don't think my sexual partner is being careful enough with contraception. She is adamant that she is. What should I do? Should I use some form of contraception myself?

"Yes. You'd be a fool not to"

"How dare you? I'm never coming here again"

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 11:07:54

Sinister - um..taking the time to have the discussion with gf, look stuff up, and post on MN isn't evidence of someone being cavalier, is it? Cavalier is exchanging secretions and still hoping for the best.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 11:11:33

OK- Pan. What should people have said? What would have been your first post if you had been first to this thread?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 11:11:58

Actually pan, it seems cerelle does have a 12 hour window - as linked to upthread. But that's not the issue here that I'm getting at.

Instead of just using a condom at the start of a sexual relationship -and I think we would all agree is wise- OP was arguing with his gf about her use of the pill. If pregnancy would be a disaster for him, he really needs to take responsibility himself - the pill is (at best) only 99%.

And it so was mansplaining.

Pan, it really is mansplaining. She's been using this form of contraception for some time, in accordance with GP advice, and he insisted that she was doing it wrong. And to be honest with you, sexual health advisers will often give advice that runs slightly contrary to published guidance because there is more wiggle room than officially given. For example, this pill works as well when taken within a 12 hour window, but the advice is to take it at the same time, this cuts down on margin for error but does not actually make the pill more effective. Likewise the MAP is as effective after 5 days as it is after 3 but officially they say three to avoid people taking unnecessary risks and leaving it genuinely too late. If she is working with sexual health advisor advice rather than NHS guidelines she is quite correct.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 11:27:48

Actually Sabrina, the guidance noted above indicates exception for Cerazette, not Cerelle, but that detail isn't what I was indicating either. He'd taken the effort to look stuff up and found inconsistencies in guidance, so he wasn't mansplaining - no more than she was womansplaining. Using differing sources.

He appears to be doing the responsible things. Apart from, as you say, going bareback in a new relationship.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 11:31:51

So, pan- what should have been said?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 11:34:56

Ok, but he IS going bareback in a new relationship because he isn't actually wearing a condom.

It was mansplaining precisely because he wasn't discussing contraception with his gf so much as trying to educate her about her own contraceptive method before using anything himself.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 11:34:57

Um...Pan, try not to patronise quite so much.

People need to Cop On about contraception. Even young men. It's not rocket science. And MN is noted for telling people to Cop On and do the obvious thing. Some people do take grave exception to that. shrug

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 11:36:58

Based on HIS worries he wanted to interfere in her hormonal contraception. He wanted mumsnet to help him convince her she was wrong to be happy with her choice. If what he wanted was some control over his fertility as opposed to some control over his gf then he'd just wear a condom and not have bothered posting.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 11:40:22

Patronise, Sinister? The usual attempt at shutting someone up when they disagree.

My 1st response curlew? Whenever advice is sought the initial response, from me, is usually 'so what do you wish to do about it? What are your options do you think? How can you clarify this position best?' sort of thing. Which probably I'd have said here.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 11:44:09

Nice cop out, Pan.

What response do you think he was looking for?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 11:46:41

If his gf had posted "new bf keeps banging on about me not taking my pill properly even though I've been taking it a while. I'm happy I am taking it properly and this is supported by advice from my gp." The advice would be "if he isn't happy he's protected he should wear a condom but why has he not just decided to do this instead of haranguing you about your contraception?" answer would either be "he doesn't like condoms" or "I don't like condoms" and she would get either a "consider sacking him off as this is quite worryingly controlling/entitled" or "don't be so unreasonable he's perfectly entitled to control his own fertility by using condoms if he wants" and most likely some "sack it off anyway this is too intense for a new RL" responses.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 11:48:52

How can she be womansplaining pan? It's her body, her hormonal contraception, and she's taking proper GP advice on a pill she's been on a long time.

He's the one mansplaining to her about her contraception - and not taking his own precautions when embarking on a new sexual relationship.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 11:49:34

No cop out curlew. I, and lots of other people use those gambits as people often know the answers before they ask from you the advice, so you just facilitate them working out and vocalising their own solutions. Simple stuff really.

I have nooo idea what he was looking for really - advice first and foremost.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 11:51:50

He was looking for everyone to agree that the gf was irresponsible.

He probably doesn't want to wear a condom. IME most men don't.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 11:52:54

Well, if he was looking for advice, he got it.

"Yes you should wear a condom"

What other advice was he looking for, do you think?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 11:55:30

He didn't actually ask for any advice though. What he asked was whether he was over thinking the issue. No, he isn't over thinking about the failure rate of the mini pill. No he isn't in the wrong to feel he has no control.

He is wrong to try, as the solution, to mansplain to his new gf how her contraceptive choice doesn't give him sufficient peace of mind rather than simply putting on a condom and actually giving himself some peace of mind. He says he has thought of using condoms.

Well, thinking about it and arguing about someone else's use of contraceptives will not give him any peace of mind will it?

And it looks controlling and overbearing, irresponsible and entitled to boot.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 12:00:26

oooh there's lots of other avenues. End the relationship through lack of trust. Speak to an 'expert' face to face, as someone upthread suggested, wear a condom everytime (though that brings in the lack of trust issue?), suggest a different form of contraception, have non-intercourse sex until you come to an agreement. Often were we end up is a long way from the opening question.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 12:09:18

Would you want to be with someone who required marching down to the gp/pharmacist to have your chosen method of contraception explained to them before they would stop haranguing you about it? How would that give him peace of mind anyway. A hormonal contraceptive with a potentially greater risk attached to user error will never give him peace of mind. It is nothing to do with trust but lack of respect for his partner's choice and lack of willingness to take responsibility for himself that's caused this problem!

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 12:11:38

Patronise, Sinister? The usual attempt at shutting someone up when they disagree

Come off it - What else does 'Umm...' mean at the start of a response ?hmm Pointing that out isn't an Attempt at shutting someone up - snort.

Really, get over it. The boy got told to Cop On. If you take it upon yourself to fight for everyone who gets told to exercise some common sense on this site you'll have some job. But somehow I don't think that's your objective.

And wanting to wear a condom isn't necessariy about trust.
"Oh I can't relax and enjoy it unless I know we're safe' is the obvious thing to say here. If that simple statement causes problems, then yeah, he's got a problem.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 12:16:10

Crumbs, if using 'um' at the start of a sentence makes you feel patronised then you appear to be very easily patronisable Sinister.

The rest of that post is just baloney.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 12:16:25

I thought the usual way of shutting someone up was saying they were projecting tbh...

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 12:17:56

There's millions of ways of saying "shut up"...and many of them practiced round these parts....

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 12:32:11

I can't even tell what pan's arguing now confused

Do you not think people should take responsibility for their own fertility, or is just haranguing a partner about their contraception good enough, pan?

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 12:34:25

---
"Oh I can't relax and enjoy it unless I know we're safe' is the obvious thing to say here. If that simple statement causes problems, then yeah, he's got a problem.
---

But it's not that simple a statement... it implies he doesn't think they're safe right now. Which implies he doesn't trust her (and indeed he doesn't), which is a bit of an issue for their relationship.

If I were the girlfriend in this situation, I would much prefer the other solution suggested, ie going to see a professional together, so they get the same information and are on the same page. It's a more diplomatic and collaborative way of taking control of his contraception, or rather, of taking care of their contraception together.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 12:38:00

Sabrina hmm No idea what point you are making there unforunatley.
<and it's good to directly refer to someone who is on the thread, rather than a 3rd person ref. - it's the polite thing to do, n'est-ce pas?>

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 12:38:31

He isn't safe now.

He's relying on the pill - which doesn't have 100% success rate.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 12:40:04

pan - I don't care what you think the polite thing to do is on a thread. The OP was far less than polite calling us a load of militaristic women for daring to suggest he take some responsibility himself.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 12:42:36

Well, it is the polite thing. Just because the OP wasn't so, isn't some reason to ape that. Otherwise we revert to the LCD.

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 12:43:23

He could tell her he doesn't feel safe because the pill is not 100% reliable, but that would be lying to her. From his OP, it's pretty clear that he doesn't feel safe because he doesn't trust she's taking it correctly.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 12:43:40

Objectively they aren't safe. They are having sex for a start.

Secondly he is not taking any precautions against pregnancy. Thirdly, he has genuine concerns about the risks of relying solely on a hormonal contraceptive which is more dependent than others are on correct usage.

His partner, who I putting the hormones in her body is satisfied she is using it correctly. He doesn't need to be satisfied, nor is it possible to explain to him that she is using it correctly and dispel his fears which he states are down to a lack of control.

The only solution, when she is happy with her choice and he isn't is for him to use a condom surely! He knows that.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 12:44:22

But don't you just love the fact that pan tells other (female) posters off for impoliteness (amongst other things) - but the OP's storming strop and namecalling against the posters here goes uncommented on?

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 12:47:26

Oh lordy Sabrina you've lost it there. RL calls.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 12:47:46

I've often, as a side thought, been irritated with people who promote the development of hormonal contraceptives for women as some kind of feminist advancement.

Taking hormonal contraceptives is still women suffering physical consequences and damage to their bodies in order to have sex. It's a different kind of suffering/damage to unwanted pg but still I think the pill has really enabled men to escape the consequences of their abuse of women and allowed them to abdicate responsibility just as much as it has freed women from some of the worry of unwanted pregnancy.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 12:50:22

Not really, pan. I thought the OP was far, far ruder on here than any of the responses warranted.

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 12:50:29

so everyone's solution is for him to lie to his gf by telling her he's worried about the pill's success rate? unless I missed something later on in the thread (it's long!), that's not what he's really worried about here.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 12:52:25

No chacha... Don't know how you could have got that from this thread?

The solution is to wear a condom so he has some control over his own fertility and that this is non-negotiable. NOT to enlisted mumsnet to try and bully his gf into changing her contraceptive.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 12:54:33

My advice to anyone embarking on a new sexual relationship would be to use condoms.

The pill has a failure rate. That is a fact. The op cannot rely purely on that if a pregnancy would be unthinkable for him.

Ofc condoms have a failure rate too - the op has to understand that having sex may lead to pregnancy and stop arguing with his gf about her pill-taking.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 12:56:49

I am finding this thread utterly baffling.

The OP asked for opinions. The universal opinion was that he should use a condom. For some reason this caused him to have a strop. I still don't know what he wanted us to say. That he should take charge of his girlfriend's pills and dole them out at what he considered the right time? That everyone agrees that men are not even remotely disadvantaged because they have no control over their fertility (a view increasingly being taken up by MRA)? That the girlfriend is obviously trying to trick him into pregnancy?

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 13:09:31

I completely understand (and agree with) the point about him having control over his own fertility, and in an ideal world he would have entered the relationship saying this was his non-negotiable policy.

The issue is, clearly that wasn't his policy when he entered the relationship. So I don't really see how he can present the condom thing as it being a principle of his. It'll likely be interpreted (rightly) as him changing his ways because he specifically does not trust her.

Of course it's absolutely his right to change his policy midstream and wear condoms, but doing so would put him in a very awkward position, emotionally speaking.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 13:19:47

"Of course it's absolutely his right to change his policy midstream and wear condoms, but doing so would put him in a very awkward position, emotionally speaking."

Again with the idea that a man choosing to wear condoms when he has sex is doing something wrong - showing "distrust" or "changing his policy".

Where the fuck is this crazy idea coming from?

That a man wanting to wear a condom is insulting the woman he is sleeping with?

There's no point in maintaining that men have full control of their own fertility if the reality is that any attempt to exercise that control will be met with suspicion and hostility.

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 13:25:36

well... yes, he'd be changing his policy? From non-condom-wearing to condom-wearing? That's not an "idea", that's the facts.

and yes, as it happens he is showing distrust, and has stated the fact very clearly. So it's not crazy to me that the girlfriend could interpret the change as exactly what it is, in this specific case.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 13:32:17

Describing a person's choice of contraceptive as a "policy" is not making a factual statement, but a political one.

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 13:36:43

Ok, change "policy" for "usual practice". Point remains.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 13:39:44

No, the point doesn't remain.

Because changing the type of contraception you are using is not something that your partner gets to strop about.

If my "usual practice" has been to go along with the withdrawal method, but I decide I'd rather start taking the pill, does my husband get to emotionally blackmail about how I don't trust him?

Or it the normal situation for people to respect their partner's contraceptive choices and not start bringing in "trust" issues to control people?

dozeydoris Thu 02-Jan-14 13:41:14

I hate to hear of women being slapdash about contraception - poor little kid who might be the product of the relationship.

Just selfish.

Obviously the answer to the OP's question is for him to use a condom but the bigger picture is why is the girl behaving in such an irresponsible way. Which might have been what he was getting at in the first place.

A GF/BF who is uncaring about contraception is not one I would want.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 13:43:45

Because she isn't behaving in a slapdash way dozey. She's taking her hormonal contraception as per the advice of her doctor. Why are you not criticising the op for behaving in a slapdash way by not using ANYTHING?

Keepithidden Thu 02-Jan-14 13:51:03

If my "usual practice" has been to go along with the withdrawal method, but I decide I'd rather start taking the pill, does my husband get to emotionally blackmail about how I don't trust him?

To be fair, it would be interesting to see how the conversation would go. In both your case, and the OPs. Emotional blackmail is only one response that the "slighted" partner could offer though.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 13:55:17

Poor Pan is floundering

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 13:58:23

There's a problem if the partner feels slighted at all I think.

I think the issue with the op was that he was trying to get mn to bully his gf into doing what he thought was best about her contraceptives. He wasn't asking for advice or he would have asked for advice and he wouldn't have flounced when people said "just wear a condom".

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 14:00:20

---
Or it the normal situation for people to respect their partner's contraceptive choices and not start bringing in "trust" issues to control people?
---

Again, he's the one who stated clearly that he didn't trust her, so she'd be absolutely correct to assume there is a trust issue. In an ideal world she would still respect his new choice and not ask him to justify it, but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. So yes, it may well be an emotionally awkward situation for him. Maybe a lesson learned for next time, though - taking control of your own contraception from the start makes everything a lot simpler.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 14:01:28

^"Oh I can't relax and enjoy it unless I know we're safe' is the obvious thing to say here. If that simple statement causes problems, then yeah, he's got a problem.
---

But it's not that simple a statement... it implies he doesn't think they're safe right now. Which implies he doesn't trust her (and indeed he doesn't), which is a bit of an issue for their relationship^

But he doesn't trust her, or rather her ability to follow doctors' orders. The answer isn't to merrily fuck away to your hearts content with a person you don't trust, out of what? Politeness?

Your suggestion of going to see a professional together is a good one, but if that professional says - as they should - no method is 100% so if pregnancy is unthinkable, use condoms as well. What has anyone gained that they didn't already know on post 2 of this thread.

It needn't be a trust issue - contraception is just biology really. Couples have to have sensitive conversations every now and again. Learning how to deal with them is important too.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 14:02:32

That was to you way back ChaCha23

Elfhame Thu 02-Jan-14 14:04:58

If you continue to make love to a woman who you know is being irresponsible regarding contraception, you are actually as irresponsible as she is.

Either stop sleeping with her or use a condom.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 14:06:55

"To be fair, it would be interesting to see how the conversation would go."

It would go

Me: "I think I'd like to go on the pill, this whole withdrawal thing doesn't make me feel as confident as I'd like about not getting pregnant"
DH: Fair enough

Not

Me: "I think I'd like to go on the pill, this whole withdrawal thing doesn't make me feel as confident as I'd like about not getting pregnant"
DH: WHAT?! Don't you trust me to pull out in time?? You don't get to change your contraceptive policy without even submitting a green paper. When was the consultation period?

Although I suppose if you are in sexual relationship with a controlling dickhead they might think it is reasonable to have strong opinions about your contraceptive choices.

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 14:08:09

I think if I was taking my pill 'whenever I remembered between 7 and 7' I would consider myself slapdash.
This method can mean potentially 36 hours passes between pills on a regular basis, which goes against any advice I've ever received from a gp. I used to do that when running low on pills, and my GP said the window is there for certain circumstances but shouldn't be abused.

Anyway, maybe they agreed pill over condoms because she doesn't like them either?!
The vast majority of couples don't 'double up' in my experience. So much anger on this thread!

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 14:08:23

SinisterSal - not so sinister after all. Just a bit silly and bitter, imo.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:09:09

There is only a trust issue if he maintains his position of not wearing condoms though.

Reality is it isn't about trust.

He wants his gf to take total responsibility for their contraception and to do it to his particular standards. Despite her already following medical advice regarding her pill.

Otherwise he'd just wear a condom.

If he's managed to get to the age he is, and if she's been on the mini pill for ages they aren't teenagers, then he could do with understanding that no condom=no control over whether you gf gets pregnant or not and that he has to be responsible for his own contraceptive choices.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 14:09:13

Well of course there is. people are frustrated at other people being precious and numptyish when the stakes are so high

Jaffacakesallround Thu 02-Jan-14 14:09:26

I think many of you have missed the point of his post.

It was- to me anyway- more to do with being possibly tricked into a pregnancy by his Gfs cavalier attitude to the pill she takes- according to some medical advice she's sailing close to the wind if PG would be terrible.

None of us know her thoughts on this- she may very well hate condoms and have told him she doesn't want them used- that is why she takes the pill.

I don't know if this is the case- but it could be. No?

It's not about donning a condom and taking responsibility- it's about lack of communication and the GF possibly not being honest with him about what she wants.

Just possibly?

OP if you are still around you need to talk to her and really talk this through.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 14:09:45

Oh Pan.

<sympathetic face>

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:10:47

Yes, there is anger on the thread which has been explained many times and I'm many ways.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 14:11:13

Sorry to patronise you again. It just seems so easily done to you.

Keepithidden Thu 02-Jan-14 14:12:12

Ha ha!

Fair enough Join, I'm not sure you can translate your approach to others quite as easily though. Shame really, because life would be a lot easier if people were as self assured, confident and honest as you and your DH.

SinisterSal Thu 02-Jan-14 14:12:12

Not to worry love.

<compassionate>

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:12:21

Oh FFS Jaffa. If you are aware you are not wearing a condom with a new gf you are not being tricked into a pregnancy. You are just an incredibly stupid, entitled misogynist.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 14:12:29

"It's not about donning a condom and taking responsibility- it's about lack of communication and the GF possibly not being honest with him about what she wants." Well, if the second- then even more the first!

Jaffacakesallround Thu 02-Jan-14 14:13:38

Ah, I see my post was too subtle to reach some people.

it was about communicating- something that seems to be a missing gene on here at times.

Chacha23 Thu 02-Jan-14 14:13:55

fair points, SinisterSal

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 14:14:57

"None of us know her thoughts on this- she may very well hate condoms and have told him she doesn't want them used- that is why she takes the pill.

I don't know if this is the case- but it could be. No?"

He has no right to dictate what contraceptive she uses and how. But "neither does she^. "Told him she doesn't want them used"- on what planet is that OK? By either sex?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:14:58

That was certainly why it made me angry... I certainly didn't miss that allusion in the op...

No-one is forcing him to put his penis in his gf even if she HAS directly told him not to use condoms. If he chose to continue having sex with her the pregnancy wouldn't be a trick would it?

Jaffacakesallround Thu 02-Jan-14 14:15:09

I wouldn't have sex at all if I were him and didn't trust the GF.

Isn't that clear?

A condom might be your solution but it doesn't say much about their relationship does it if there is not complete honesty and transparency.

CustardoPaidforIDSsYFronts Thu 02-Jan-14 14:15:51

a guy comes on and asks for advice

he wasn't shitty in any way - and he was jumped on

in a committed relationship, having looked up and done his research - comes to get more advice from a parenting forum.

this is more shits given right here than most I have ever come across.

I think the majority on this thread have been unnecessarily rude

and that's coming from me!! ffs

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:16:51

He was pretty disrespectful about his gf custardo.

CustardoPaidforIDSsYFronts Thu 02-Jan-14 14:19:45

you're reading it differently than me - because I can't see him being disrespectful about her anywhere unless I missed a post?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:22:49

Perhaps you are. My reading of it is that he thinks he knows better about her contraception and is annoyed he can't make her agree.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 14:24:44

"Told him she doesn't want them used"- on what planet is that OK? By either sex?

I know, it's fucking weird confused

But the reality is that whenever threads like this come up on MN at least one woman comes on to say how she wouldn't stand for her partner starting to wearing condoms.

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 14:27:01

I didnt think he had been disrespectful either and I read all his posts, think he only managed four before he ran for cover

dozeydoris Thu 02-Jan-14 14:28:32

He was pretty disrespectful about his gf custardo

Not how it read to me.

More disrespectful of the gf to brush off his concerns (completely justified imo).

I'm with Jaffacake. The OP has to 'man up' and have the conversation as he said 'what should be a discussion turns into an argument', and get this sorted out.

CustardoPaidforIDSsYFronts Thu 02-Jan-14 14:30:47

my reading of it is that he concerned and wants to be responsible and check his facts by asking advice

and he hasn't mentioned his partners attitude to condoms

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 14:32:55

She doesn't agree that she isn't taking it properly because she is following advice from her GP. It is perfectly reasonable for her to believe her doctor's advice trumps her new boyfriend's on this issue.

Not agreeing is not the same as dismissing. In reality what she chooses to use for contraception is not up to him.

The only thing the op can reasonably do is use a condom in this situation as his gf is happy with her choices.

CustardoPaidforIDSsYFronts Thu 02-Jan-14 14:38:38

I just read it differently

dozeydoris Thu 02-Jan-14 14:40:39

Yeah, but would a GP encourage erratic pill taking? Seems unlikely, more like the GP said that there is a 12 hour window when she can take the pill and be safe , but not that that is the rule for daily use.

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 14:44:35

There's no way the GP encouraged erratic pill taking. he had every right to be concerned.

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 14:47:44

From the leaflet

"If you forget to take one or more tablets
If you are less than 12 hours late
Take the tablet as soon as you remember, and take the next one at the usual time. The contraceptive action of Cerelle is maintained."

The gf use of the pill is fine, if she always takes a pill between 7am and 7pm.
Storm, tea cup.

In the OP's place I'd always use a condom if I really didn't want babies.

Timetoask Thu 02-Jan-14 14:47:48

Maybe I have very thick skin but I didn't see anything offensive in his question. He just wants to clarify his concerns with women, he cannot go and ask his friends, his mum, his sister, he cannot go to his girlfriends GP to ask them, so he comes to a forum like this to ask for help. What is wrong with that?

The truth is that some people here take offence for everything and anything. Liven up a bit!

Timetoask Thu 02-Jan-14 14:49:15

Lighten up (even)

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 14:50:57

It might be a problem, if she took one at 7pm one day, then forgot at 7pm the following day and only took another at 7am the following morning, thus taking pills consistently at 36h intervals.

As it is, she is taking the pills at between 12 and 36h intervals, with a 12 to 24 hour interval following a 36 hour interval.
If the doctor is happy, so should the bf.

happygirl87 Thu 02-Jan-14 14:53:25

OP if you are lurking, I think that the advice to go to a pharmacist together is a good idea. I was on Cerazette for a year (also 12 hour window) and thought that I was told that taking it roughly the same time each day is good, but the window they give you is usually erring on the side of caution.

Unrelatedly, you may or may not care, but I think your title may have given the wrong impression. You don't think she's being careless (I don't think), you are concerned that her interpretation of the instructions is wrong- but it sounds like you think she is taking care to follow the instructions as she understands them? But this may have contributed to the responses you got. Just a thought.

Everyone else: DP and I do not want a baby for at least 4 years (we are getting married next year, want to buy a house first, wouldn't be able to afford as much for DSD if we had a baby, plus both early in careers, etc etc). If I got pregnant now, we have agreed that for the sake of us plus DSD it would be best for me to have a termination. We also agree that our best contraceptive option right now is for me to be on the pill (I take it responsibly, if I ever miss one I take the MAP, and we neither of us like condoms).
Genuine qu- do you think DP is being irresponsible? Or is it ok for him to say that I should "have control" of the fertility, on the basis that we have agreed and we live together, trust each other, etc?

dozeydoris Thu 02-Jan-14 14:56:09

take the next one at the usual time

When did that mean take any time over a 12 hour period? Surely it means take at the same fixed time every day - people are falling over themselves to make the gf the goodie and the OP the baddie. Nuts.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 15:00:46

*"If you forget to take one or more tablets
If you are less than 12 hours late
Take the tablet as soon as you remember, and take the next one at the usual time. The contraceptive action of Cerelle is maintained."

The gf use of the pill is fine, if she always takes a pill between 7am and 7pm.*

You see, I read those instructions and your description of how she takes the pills and I think that her use of the pill is NOT fine.

The instructions clearly indicate that there SHOULD BE a set time that they are taken and that not taking them for hours after that time counts as FORGETTING.

There's a lot of room for different interpretations of how this medication should be taken.

Which is why I would barely trust MYSELF to take it, never mind anybody else.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 15:14:39

I've never ever said he was wrong to be concerned. I said he's wrong to try and interfere rather than just wear a condom. Even with absolutely correct use I'd still be concerned about the mini pill because I don't think it is possible to achieve perfect use even if you try to.

I'd be concerned if I was him but I'd also think it was not advisable to go bareback in a new relationship either.

I entirely stand by my first post before he flounced which said basically if he has now realised the situation isn't adequate and she isn't pregnant no harm done and lesson learned. Just start wearing a condom.

I also stand by the umbrage I took to him thinking it is appropriate to substitute her view for his when she is happy with her choice, presumably based on her particular life. They've already argued it out. She disagrees with his opinion on her contraceptive choice.

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 15:25:47

But, Join, this particular pill is very forgiving, and although it should be taken at a given time, there is a large window of safety. I really don't see a problem with her approach, and apparently neither did her doctor.

You could say the usual time is 7am and that she is allowed to forget up to 12h each day past that usual time.

dozeydoris Thu 02-Jan-14 15:30:40

But there is always a risk of the pill user being run over by a bus and, being rushed to hospital so pills not available, ok unlikely, but it is possible user has sickness and diarrhea and one pill is not digested, the already 36 hour gap means risk of pregnancy would be higher, surely.

I took the pill for years, it sat by my bed and I took pill at bedtime, carrying it around with me to consume anytime between breakfast and corrie would have been disastrous for me.

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 15:31:52

That's when you use MAP or a condom for 7 days. Not hard.
And it would be the same if it was strictly on 24 intervals.

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 15:32:52

I entirely stand by my first post before he flounced which said basically if he has now realised the situation isn't adequate and she isn't pregnant no harm done and lesson learned. Just start wearing a condom.

I also stand by the umbrage I took to him thinking it is appropriate to substitute her view for his when she is happy with her choice, presumably based on her particular life. They've already argued it out. She disagrees with his opinion on her contraceptive choice.

Completely agree. She is an adult. She has made a contraceptive choice that she is happy with and using it in a manner that she is happy with (and lets face it the consequences of it failing are more far-reaching for her than him). He isn't happy so he has two choices leave or use other contraceptive i.e. a condom. His views are not more valid than hers.

I thought the OP had a bit of nasty undercurrent running through it tbh. "I know better than her and she is being reckless and untrustworthy" (when in fact she's taken advice and been using the contraceptive for a while).

MyChildDoesntNeedSleep Thu 02-Jan-14 15:36:36

How the fuck is this thread still running? confused

You lot need to get out more!

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 15:37:59

The consequences aren't necessarily more far-reaching for her than for him. Once she is pregnant she has choices about continuing the pregnancy, he has none. If he's a respectable man, he also has no choice about whether to contibute financially and emotionally to the child. it's as much his child as hers.
If he was the type of man to cut and run I doubt he would be quite so concerned about her pill taking.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 15:46:10

"Genuine qu- do you think DP is being irresponsible? Or is it ok for him to say that I should "have control" of the fertility, on the basis that we have agreed and we live together, trust each other, etc?"

Of course he isn't. Because you trust each other and have talked about it extensively. The OP doesn't trust his partner and she won't talk about it. Th situation is entirely different.

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 15:50:35

How the fuck is this thread still running?

Since when is an OP needed for a thread to keep running in MN? grin

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 02-Jan-14 16:03:10

From what Lweji posted

"Take the tablet as soon as you remember, and take the next one at the usual time."

Surely the inference is that the pill should be taken at the same time each day?

I know that it goes on to say that the contraceptive properties are not effected but usual time would be the clincher for me.

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 16:23:05

Yes the consequences are more far-reaching for her FetaCheeny. Even if she had a termination she would still have to have an operation. And being pregnant and giving birth are more far-reaching consequences than providing financial support (which she would also have to do).

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 16:30:49

On what planet are the consequences of a pregnancy not more far reaching for a woman than for a man?

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 16:34:40

Well exactly curlew.

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 16:37:24

The consequences on her physically will be greater. But she still has the choice to terminate the pregnancy.
I don't think it's fair to say contraception is more important for women than for men, purely because she carries the baby.

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 16:42:34

I never said contraception was more important for women. I said the consequences of its failure were greater.

"purely because she carries the baby" - that is quite a big thing you know and potentially dangerous hmm

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 16:49:10

If it didn't say usual time, people might end up taking the pill at regular 36h intervals, because they'd keep thinking it was ok.
To have a 6 hour window either side of what could be considered the usual time should be fine. It results on an average of 24 h interval, with no more than 36 h between doses.

And the doctor also agreed it was fine.

What's important is that the concentration of the drug in the organism does not go below a certain level. The pill dosage will ensure it's well above the lower threshold to account for minor variations. If the manufacturers allow for 36 hour intervals in the instructions, it's probably still well above it then.
The pill is designed to keep constant levels of the hormones in the body at 24 hour intervals, accommodating for occasional longer periods.
But in this case, a longer period is necessarily followed by a shorter or normal period, resulting in an average of 24 h. And so, it should be fine.

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 16:53:59

I'm not trying to cause an argument. I know what carrying a baby involves.

She has made a contraceptive choice that she is happy with and using it in a manner that she is happy with (and lets face it the consequences of it failing are more far-reaching for her than him)

I'm merely saying I disagree. Men don't have the option of termiantions, (and terminations don't always involve operations) so the consequences of pregnancy for a women still involves choice.
I'm not saying he shouldnt take responsibility for his own contraception, merely that he has every right to be as concerned as she does about the contraception they (I assume as a couple) have chosen.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 17:03:25

We've been saying all along he should take responsibility, Feta.

But his part in it shouldn't be badgering her on her pill-taking. If he wants to take control, he can use a condom.

Ridiculous to argue that women are not more affected by an unwanted pregnancy than men, though. Even though she has a "choice" - an early termination is no picnic - and will have an emotional and physical impact on her.

JoinYourPlayfellows Thu 02-Jan-14 17:04:57

"You could say the usual time is 7am and that she is allowed to forget up to 12h each day past that usual time."

Well, you COULD say that. But that's not not say it's what is really being advised.

It seems to me that the advice is to take it at a regular time each day, but that in the event that you don't manage to do so you don't need to panic as long as you catch it within 12 hours.

Not that you needn't bother your hole taking it at a regular time EVER and that the 12 hour window is there to be used every day.

If DH were taking the male pill and interpreting the given instructions as you are, there is no way I would be shagging him bareback.

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 17:14:29

OK I seem to have stepped into a parallel universe here confused. Where have I said that it doesn't involve a choice? A choice that the woman will HAVE to make (the man doesn't have to make any choice if he doesn't want to). But even if a termination doesn't involve an operation it is still something that is happening to the woman's body that will not happen to the man's body. It is a choice that most women don't really want to have to make. And so I was alluding to that fact and that the OP's girlfriend is going to be very aware of those consequences of contraception failure. What woman isn't? It was a bit of a 'state the obvious' really. Or I thought it was.

Yes the man's choices technically end at the moment they have sex (although in reality there are plenty of choices they can make if a woman is pregnant and in long-term relationships they are, in the main, made together) - hence the replies to the OP.

And I agree he does have every right to be concerned about contraception. Completely. And he should absolutely take more control if he doesn't want to have a baby.

scallopsrgreat Thu 02-Jan-14 17:15:48

Or what Sabrina said much more succinctly grin

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 17:18:41

Of course I understand it is no picnic, although doesn't always leave a lasting impact (depends on the woman). I didn't meant to turn this into a thread about abortion so I'll leave it there, but I still stand by what I said. I just think the element of choice is vital.

I don't think he's badgering her, just discussing it with her and by the sounds of it she clams up. To be honest he left far too early to get enough info out of him. Does she prefer not using condoms? why does she avoid the conversation? how would she react if he suggested using them etc.
I do agree that he should just take control in this situation and use a condom in though.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 02-Jan-14 17:32:10

Men walk away from unwanted pregnancies all the time, though - with zero choices to make or impact on their body.

The woman is the one whose body is actually pregnant.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 17:42:55

It sounds as if you are saying that a pregnancy has a more lasting impact on a man than a woman because a woman can have an abortion. You're not saying that, are you?

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 17:46:40

No I'm not saying that.

FetaCheeny Thu 02-Jan-14 17:47:58

Sabrina I credited the OP with a bit more of a sense of responsibility due to him being so paranoid about contraceptives. He didn't seem the point, aim and run type. I could be wrong though.

curlew Thu 02-Jan-14 17:56:27

So what are you saying?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 18:45:10

IMO the "point aim and run" types are also the ones who see the contraception as the woman's responsibility and think if the woman hasn't taken adequate care or has accidentally fallen pregnant on contraception that the pregnancy is her 'fault'... Despite being aware they had taken no precautions to avoid pregnancy at all themselves...

Fairy1303 Thu 02-Jan-14 18:52:04

I was on cerelle. My understanding was also that you can take it within a 12 hour window. It used to be rigid but it has been improved now to be more flexible. I think the longer you leave it the less effective it is.

If I were you I would wear a condom to be sure.

Blu Thu 02-Jan-14 21:25:04

This could have been an OP. from a MNers teenage son , posting because he knows his Mum comes here for advice. Good advice is more effective if the receiver is confident to keep coming back to ask for more help when needed . The reaction this man was met with was horrible. Not on the 'use a condom' content but tone.

I hope if my gauche and inexperienced DS ever posted for advice he would be met with some patience and kindness

If I really wanted Crelle to be effective I certainly wouldn't be leaving it 36 hours, then 24, then 36 regularly through the month. It would feel like a risk when the first line of the leaflet says take it at the same time every 24 hours.aybr he did google it and maybe that opening sentence made him anxious . .

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 21:45:25

Well quite. He didn't use the correct diction, is clearly v irresponsible, expects worry-free sex and wants to be treated like a lord with all of the entitlement that brings, and enjoys harassing his gf (and where better to get that supported than by coming onto a mainly female web-site hmm).

Lweji Thu 02-Jan-14 21:50:58

f I really wanted Cerelle to be effective I certainly wouldn't be leaving it 36 hours, then 24, then 36 regularly through the month.

That's not how the gf is doing it.

If she did it at 7am, then 7pm, then 7am and so on, it would be 36, then 12 (not 24), then 36. Giving an average of 24 hours. Quite different from 36-24-36, which gives an average of 30 hours.
The 24 hour average (and never going over 36 hours) keeps the average concentration stable and always above the minimum.
The 30 hour average would slowly lower the average concentration and would end up getting lower than the minimum required.

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 21:51:27

If it was a gauche and inexperienced teenager they would have been treated gently. I have seen this before.

Unsure why you're so invested in misreading and incorrectly repeating what's been said.

If you read the op he wasn't asking for advice about what to do. He wanted opinions. In all likelihood so he could use them to continue trying to impose his feelings about his gf's contraception on her.

If he was that concerned about having control over his fertility then he would just wear a condom and no real discussion would be needed.

I would also hope that no son of mine would ever be so disrespectful to his gf.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 22:01:25

Nope Offred - utterly none of that is true, particularly para 3. You're just wishing to make unpleasant assumptions to support your position, nothing less. (opinions/advice - are really differentiating between those here?hmm)

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 22:02:13

Have you read the op... Where he asks for opinions and doesn't ask for advice?

Offred Thu 02-Jan-14 22:03:18

And yes we are differentiating because asking for advice about what he should do is totally different to asking for opinions so he can keep trying to impose his feelings on his gf.

MatildaWhispers Thu 02-Jan-14 22:03:47

Agree that the aggressive tone here is uncalled for.

If someone of either sex is in a relationship that they believe to be a trusting and 'good' relationship, then of course it's not going to be easy to explain why they feel they need to use a second contraceptive. It is only on MN where I have encountered this idea that contraception choice is an individual decision, concerning individual responsibility alone. When I was at school and we learnt about contraception, I recall the focus being on the importance of talking together about contraception, that it was a joint decision, that it was a joint responsibility.

fwiw I am a woman and I posted a while back under a different name about my own concerns over having control over my fertility. I do now agree with the view that contraception is an individual decision alone, but I do not see myself as having been stupid, a numpty or whatever. I was not in a 'normal' relationship, and maybe this OP isn't either.

Pan Thu 02-Jan-14 22:04:29

I would appreciate your opinions on the situation

Pretty broad appeal there, incl 'advice' which he received. You're just making yourself look silly.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 02-Jan-14 22:55:32

In all likelihood so he could use them to continue trying to impose his feelings about his gf's contraception on her.

Wow, just wow.

Fennec Fri 03-Jan-14 01:33:25

There's no fail safe. Every time you have sex you are risking getting someone pregnant, regardless of the contraception statistics and obviously it's also possible if the woman has been sterilised, albeit rarely.

Even condoms have a failure rate.

Take all precautions then grin and 'bare' it. What else can you do?

Oh yes. Not have sex smile

JoinYourPlayfellows Fri 03-Jan-14 10:02:12

When I was at school and we learnt about contraception, I recall the focus being on the importance of talking together about contraception, that it was a joint decision, that it was a joint responsibility.

What a fucking stupid and irresponsible thing to be teaching young people. angry

How the fuck can two TEENAGERS have "joint responsibility" for ANYTHING?

Young people need to be taught to look after THEMSELVES, and their OWN INTERESTS, and not taking on responsibility for some boyfriend or girlfriend they probably won't be speaking to next month.

FFS.

JoinYourPlayfellows Fri 03-Jan-14 10:05:49

And surely you misunderstood. Surely no teacher on earth would stand in front of a classroom of teenagers and tell YOUNG GIRLS that their decisions about contraception are a fucking JOINT DECISION with whatever bloke is trying to shag them that week?

FFS.

Sometimes I am thankful that I went to an all-girls Catholic school where we were taught to look after our own bodies and not consult some horny young eejit about what contraceptive he would prefer we choose for his benefit.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 03-Jan-14 10:35:03

I think that was misunderstood too - but perhaps it depended on the school/teacher?

At my school it was all "contraception is the responsibility of both partners" - a different thing from "joint" imo.

I was a teenager in the 80's and the emphasis on "both" was, I think, an antidote to the prevailing view that contraception was the woman's responsibility as she was the one who got pregnant. It was about getting men to take responsibility too.

I was a teen just as the AIDS thing started too - so the emphasis was very much on the men using condoms to protect themselves and their partner, and the women not being afraid to ask a man to use a condom.

Seems that this message has been lost more recently? I mean, here we have the OP, a young man, who embarked on a new sexual relationship without feeling the need to use a condom to protect himself/his gf. Pregnancy is the thing he's worrying about - no regard for STD's.

MatildaWhispers Fri 03-Jan-14 11:39:12

I was a teenager in the 90s, at a mixed sex school. I don't believe I misunderstood. Of course it wasn't a case of the teacher telling young girls that their contraception decisions were a joint decision with 'whatever bloke is trying to shag them that week'. The context was (unrealistically! ) that you wouldn't be having sex unless you trusted your partner and were adult enough to talk about contraception.

Pan Fri 03-Jan-14 12:42:10

I went to a Jesuit boys grammar school in the 70s. In the 3rd year we were given a book about how fish 'do it'.
It was very informative, and I now know more than I ever need to know. About fish.

JoinYourPlayfellows Fri 03-Jan-14 13:27:53

"The context was (unrealistically! ) that you wouldn't be having sex unless you trusted your partner and were adult enough to talk about contraception."

Quite apart from that context being ridiculously unrealistic (they didn't even try to pretend that in the convent school I went to), it's also bullshit.

Even if you do trust your partner and are adult enough to talk about contraception, it is STILL not a JOINT decision.

Controlling your fertility is an INDIVIDUAL decision.

At all times, always.

There might be times when a couple (in a committed relationship where trust has been established) decides that their interests are aligned and that it makes sense to figure out contraception between them.

But it is still up to each of them individually to agree to this and there should NEVER be any complaint or emotional blackmail if either decides they would prefer to resume using something that protects them on an individual basis.

The idea that you get to strop and accuse your partner of not "trusting" you because of their preferred method of preventing conception is so appalling to me. I can't believe anyone would pull that kind of crap with someone they were meant to love and were not trying to control.

Teaching teenagers, who are years (if not decades) off the kind of relationship where it makes sense to trust someone else with this kind of thing, it is totally insane to be teaching them to take JOINT responsibility for contraception.

Girls need to understand what THEIR OWN interests are and how they go about protecting them. Not yet another lesson about compromising themselves to keep some bloke happy.

And boys need to understand that the last time they get any say in what happens to their sperm is the moment they spurt them into a girl while not wearing a condom.

curlew Fri 03-Jan-14 13:51:38

Well, said, JoinYourplayfellows!

MatildaWhispers Fri 03-Jan-14 14:16:15

I agree Joinyourplayfellows. But you make this sound ridiculously obvious, and I don't believe it is necessarily obvious to everyone that they are individually in control of their own fertility. Unfortunately.

JoinYourPlayfellows Fri 03-Jan-14 14:27:15

"I don't believe it is necessarily obvious to everyone that they are individually in control of their own fertility."

I agree with me that it is obvious but I also agree with you that it is not obvious grin

I think it SHOULD be obvious, because it is self-evident.

But there are a lot of cultural factors at play that seem to obscure the obvious for many of us.

And one of them appears to be atrocious sex education that is giving terrible messages to you young people that serve neither boys nor girls, but seem particularly risky for young girls.

curlew Fri 03-Jan-14 14:28:13

Matilda, it's obvious from this thread that the very idea is somehow offensive or ridiculous to many people. The very suggestion is enough to bring accusations of man hating and aggression.

Chacha23 Fri 03-Jan-14 14:35:57

---
there should NEVER be any complaint or emotional blackmail if either decides they would prefer to resume using something that protects them on an individual basis.
---

No, there shouldn't. But there are. So the OP should be prepared for it - I hope he's readying his "I'm taking control of my fertility because it's the right thing to do" speech as we write!

shey02 Fri 03-Jan-14 18:48:54

I guess it's nice in a way to hear that a guy is concerned for a change rather than just blindly trusting us women, BUT yes, sorry protect yourself is the answer here.......

ALittleStranger Fri 03-Jan-14 19:14:27

Have I missed why it's so out of the question for the OP's girlfriend to try and take the pill at a similar time each day? I manage it and I can barely remember to wash my own socks.

Offred Fri 03-Jan-14 19:26:09

It isn't. If she is concerned or minded to do that. It is out of order for the op to tell her she must take it at the same time of the day because of his concerns, him having treated contraception as an afterthought (but like I said originally if not pg no harm done) despite her not sharing them.

I wouldn't use the mini pill because of the user error, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking it within the 12 hour period like she does but I'm not sure she is being careless either and I think it is her body, her medication and her relationship and up to her how she deals with contraception.

If she hadn't thought about it at all that would be a different matter, but she clearly has and further to that has sought advice to inform her decision which she is personally happy with in the context of her life.

The only person who can accurately be described as careless in that relationship is the op really...

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 03-Jan-14 21:08:59

Offred

Why are you so desperate to make the OP out to be bad?

Offred Fri 03-Jan-14 21:14:46

I think he's made himself out to be bad. Not sure why some people are so keen to absolve him of his responsibility.

Pan Fri 03-Jan-14 21:20:19

Why are you so desperate to make the OP out to be bad?

This will be because she is in dreary radfem 'goon' mode, where all you have is a hammer so everything must look like a nail. Prob. the best explanation.

Offred Fri 03-Jan-14 21:31:05

Nice.

Offred Fri 03-Jan-14 21:33:26

Still waiting for one of you to come up with a relevant point related to what the op actually said.... Must be a reason why you've not done that but have invested so much time and effort in insulting people.

Dinnaeknowshitfromclay Fri 03-Jan-14 21:39:17

I know it's going back through the thread a bit but there was some posters that said the GF would think it odd if the BF started using condoms after going bareback and all the issues that may ensue from that (perceived lack of trust etc,)
Am I looking at this too simply but could the BF in this case say he wanted to try some of the more, erm, shall we say 'exotic' types of knobby, ribbed, shaped like a guinea pig etc. types of condom available to the market, in order to get using them and start a new habit that way or would that be perceived as being dishonest. He could later say that he enjoyed the extra protection and this added to the whole experience blah blah to address why he wishes to keep using them. It might cover all bases (for want of a better term!) OR would the GF be upset to think her fanjo not exciting enough and it cause further problems?

Pan Fri 03-Jan-14 21:45:59

Possibly Dinnaegrin. A few of us suggested differing possibilities.
Offred, there's been lots of relevant points made by lots of posters here. You just don't appear to wish to see them as they don't fit into your 'ideology' so you bang on ad nauseum about a 'lack of responsibility', which has already been examined .

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 03-Jan-14 21:58:29

I can only see one point at which he made himself look bad and that was when he flounced, due to getting some "unhelpful" answers.

Trying to make him out as controlling when all he seemed to want to do was ask about contraception just seems off as it has been twisted to suit your own opinion.

Lazyjaney Fri 03-Jan-14 22:04:48

"The idea that you get to strop and accuse your partner of not "trusting" you because of their preferred method of preventing conception is so appalling to me. I can't believe anyone would pull that kind of crap with someone they were meant to love and were not trying to control"

Or they were not as interested in preventing pregnancy as they professed to be.

Always a good plan to watch what people do, not say.

Mignonette Fri 03-Jan-14 22:14:42

Bloody Hell - dog with a bone much?

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