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So we split and now he has a proposition..

(93 Posts)
EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:09:19

I need the wise women of MN again. I don't think I am being as strong as I should be. I suspect people might tell me to get a grip, maybe that's what I need.

So it's three weeks since the split. It's been hard work to be honest, mainly because there is no room for him to have DS at his DPs so he has been coming here to have him so there has been more opportunity for him to speak to me.

Also, I think DS has taken it badly, he is very unsettled. Ive posted about that separately this week.

But I Have been looking for new places, had decided me and DS would move in new year, then H would be able to get his own place too. We could all move forward etc.

But anyway, he came yesterday to play with DS and put him to bed. Afterwards he asked if we could talk...

He said his counselling is starting to make him see things clearly. he realises he did nothing to support me since DS came along. For example, i wanted to do a qualification to help me further my business but couldn't because he was never here.

He says he and the counsellor have discussed the fact he has been anxious and stressed and trying to be all things to all people. He doesn't know who he is. He says its not an excuse but knows he treated me badly, it was EA and he is determined to get over his porn addiction.

He wants me to keep this house on for another six months. He wants to live here too in the spare room and support me financially while I do the qualification and he proves to me he is the man I married not the miserable horrible one he became.

he said we can live as separately as I want. And at any time if I think it isn't working I can call it a day. But he hopes in six months I will have seen enough to agree to go to marriage counselling.

I'm worried about DS.

My mum thinks I should do it. She says What have I got to lose?

I'm not sure if I can ever get past some of things that happened. That its all gone too far. But then I think wouldn't it be nice if I could?

I think I have lost the ability to think for myself and I feel so cross with myself. I think what I want and what I feel I ought to do are getting all mixed up.

My brain might explode. Answers on a postcard please!!

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:10:48

[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1868665-Is-it-really-that-bad-because-I-feel-like-I-want-to-boot-him-out]

Sorry I meant to post a link to the background of it all x

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:11:40
MirandaWest Sun 03-Nov-13 15:12:10

I think it's too soon to have him living in the same house as you. And realistically would you ask him to move out if you did have a problem with it?

I'd say to have him living somewhere else for at least 6 months and then see how things go.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 03-Nov-13 15:13:26

I think it all sounds a bit too convenient tbh. This massive revelation in just three weeks? That's either one muvva of a counsellor or it's a crock of shit.... and I suspect the latter. Keep making your own plans for your and DS's future, stop letting him pop round to yours all the time and definitely don't let him live in the spare room. If he's truly on the path of righteousness, he'll still be on it in 12 months' time. In the meantime, the only person you can trust is yourself.

MyNameIsWinkly Sun 03-Nov-13 15:14:17

Wow. He's had a hell of a personality change in three weeks, hasn't he.

I say continue with your plans. Become self sufficient, break all ties. If he has really truly changed then he'll be helpful and supportive because it's the right thing for you and your DS. If you want to go to counselling with him in six months, do it when you have your own space to return to.

In all honesty I would bet this is a last desperate attempt to get his own way. If he moved back in he would revert to type as soon as his arse hit the sofa. If you say no, he may have an epic tantrum because he hasn't changed. Stay firm, protect yourself.

Having read more about him on your previous thread, I think this is just more manipulative bs on his part designed to tug at your heartstrings. He's trying to get you where he wants you again; he wants his puppet back.

If there has been any type of abuse as well, joint counselling is never recommended either.

I would not enter into such an arrangement under any circumstances; besides which its too much for your DS to have to deal with his dad going in and out of his life as and when his father sees fir.

Its all very convenient for him and he can keep an eye on you as well. Power and control is what all this is about.

I haven't read history.

But what's your gut say? You see I'm wondering if the shock of splitting, not being in house, no family etc has woken him up. He's attending counselling, that's a good step.

Could you ask for the counsellor to do a dual session where u both go?

It depends really, has your heart moved on?

PTA Sun 03-Nov-13 15:20:38

I agree with the above posters. Continue with your plans. Be kind to yourself and move forward.

If, after a period of time on your own, you want to give it another shot (and if his counsellor is really that good), surely a new start in a new home altogether would be for the best.

Also his behaviours are deeply entrenched and a few sessions of counselling are not going to change anything that entrenched. This is a further attempt to manipulate you into submission.

I would start arranging contact through a contact centre; do not have this man visit your house.

WooWooSister Sun 03-Nov-13 15:23:38

Your dm is wrong - you have a lot to lose. If you can't think straight now then it will be worse when he is living in the spare room.

I've been there ie left partner, he went to counselling and had massive revelation. I had no contact with him for over a year. Then he got back in touch and convinced me he had changed. He was like a new man right through our new relationship, engagement and wedding. Two years in to being married and he was right back to where he was before ie entitled, selfish, EA, etc. I'm not saying your dh is the same. I have no idea what he's like but I would just say be very, very cautious.

If you let your dh move back in and he does revert to type then it will be doubly upsetting for your ds to have dh back in the house and then leaving again.

You have nothing to lose from going ahead with your plans for your own life. If your dh has changed then he will support you and will still be there when or if you are ready to speak to him again. If his change is genuine then it will continue without you because it's about who he wants to be not just about 'winning' you back.

itsmeisntit Sun 03-Nov-13 15:23:48

Hmm l just reread your initial thread.
This is the man who had an epiphany within days of your separation and after his first visit with counsellor when they decided he had been EA for several years hmm
Far too soon- far far too soon to be letting him move back in. He needs time and a lot of it to work on himself before you even consider this.
As previously said 6 months minimum for you both to decide what you want. He was not supportive of you, ignored your wishes and rejected you for a long time.
You can't work out what you want with him living under your nose--please don't seriously consider this yet

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:26:38

Ive already said that I am willing to be open to the possibility of counselling in six months. I've not said I will do it, but that I will consider it in the future. Although to be honest, I just said that a couple of weeks ago to get him agree to leave. But I am happy to keep to my word on that.

He says he knows actions speak louder than words but he can't show me any of his actions if we are not in the same house. He also said its too hard for him not being in the same house as DS. He said it would make him so happy if he could wake up in the same house as him and be around him more. I think maybe that is the motivation behind it all. I do believe he knows he has been wrong and has screwed up. But he is desperately trying to stop the consequences.

He's only doing this to try to get you back because once that happens he can and will carry on where he left off with you. He's only upset because he's actually managed to lose the one thing he could control - you. He does not want you, he wants that power and control that he lost when he was with you back.

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 15:28:50

You would be absolutely crazy to let this manipulative arse back into your home.

He can prove to you what a great guy he has miraculously turned into overnight and still leave you some space.

The point is, he doesn't want to. Because he knows his best chance of getting you back under control is getting back into the house and making you dependent on him again.

If this new epiphany was so easily come by, aren't you a little insulted that he couldn't be arsed figuring it out before things got so bad?

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 15:29:39

"he can't show me any of his actions if we are not in the same house."

That is a big, fat, LIE.

The manipulative shit.

Anniegetyourgun Sun 03-Nov-13 15:29:47

I agree it's most unlikely he has suddenly undergone a personality transplant in a whole three weeks hmm - but even if he has, and is ready, willing and able to be the partner and father he should have been all along, that doesn't mean you are obliged to take him back; not straight away if you don't feel ready, not ever if you don't want to. If he's truly seen the light he will respect that, even if he is not happy about it.

"Ive already said that I am willing to be open to the possibility of counselling in six months"

NO NO and NO again because there has been abuse within this relationship already. You must realise that joint counselling is never recommended when there have been any instances of abuse.

Such men are highly manipulative and skilled at doing so. If he has indeed seen a counsellor he has run rings around this person, abusive men in counselling sessions can and do make it all out to be the other person's fault.

MyNameIsWinkly Sun 03-Nov-13 15:31:11

It's all about him, isn't it? HE can't show how he's changed. Too hard for HIM to be away from DS. It would make HIM happy to be home. Of course he's trying to stop the consequences - he's had his first taste of being told 'no' and he doesn't like it!

He cannot have made major changes in his personality and behaviours in such a short space of time.

something2say Sun 03-Nov-13 15:31:12

We had an Executive Decision Maker when I lived with my Dad. 'Should I buy a new car?' He asked once. We got the Executive Decision Maker out and flipped it, and it said no. We lived with that decision for a bit to see how it felt. Would we be disappointed or would we feel that yes, it would be the right decision for my Dad not to buy the car, given his precarious business at that stage. It was right. He ought not to spend that money on a car.

I say, choose a decision and then live with it for this week. See how you feel in your heart as the days pass. Sad, ready to start barricading yourself in again emotionally. Or happy, more in control.

Good luck x

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:33:00

I worry that if I did agree to this and we got through the six months with him on his best behaviour, I would feel obliged to give it a shot. Because that's what I'm like really. I feel guilty a lot and do what I think I ought to do.

He is not an out and out horrible man, although he can be. He gets me to do what he wants with guilt trips, he knows my weak spot. I don't trust him to not exploit it.

Says it all really doesn't it.

I think I do know what I want to do but because he seems to be suffering a lot, I am finding it hard to keep twisting the knife. I need to grow a pair don't I?

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 15:36:40

"I am finding it hard to keep twisting the knife."

You're not twisting any knife.

Can't you see that?

None of this was done with the intention of hurting him, but to protect yourself.

So the idea of a knife being twisted here is bizarre.

I suspect you are being made to feel that you are hurting him deliberately and being cruel.

something2say Sun 03-Nov-13 15:38:19

How about giving yourself a shot here? Cut contact for a bit. Reduce child contact or send the kids out with him. Reduce the time you see him. Do this mindfully as a way of showing yourself that you do matter. There are times when a woman has to stand firm. You sound to me as tho you're at one of those junctures, for yourself as much as for him.

Guilt is one of the most poisonous substances; sod guilt and feeling guilty.

If you undertake any form of joint counselling with this man it will be a huge error of judgment on your part. It does not work when there have been instances of abuse as has happened here. No decent counsellor worth their salt would in any way counsel you together.

I would suggest you read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft.

If anyone should feel at all guilty here it is him and he does not feel any real remorse whatsoever. He thinks he can fool you into him having an epiphany by having a few counselling sessions. How do you know he actually attended any?.

What have you got to feel guilty for?. You should congratulate yourself for having the gumption to throw him out.

As stated before he only is upset because he's actually managed to lose the one person he could control - you. He does not love you nor is now acting in your best interests nor your son's for that matter.

You need to remain strong; allowing him back into your home now he's gone will be a retrograde step for you. One step up and two steps back.

And yes you do need to grow a pair, if not a spine.

CoolStoryBro Sun 03-Nov-13 15:40:11

There is a perfectly reasonable chance that, having moved out, he suddenly woke up and thought, "Wtf have I been doing?!" Especially as your problems started mainly around you both having your first child. But that's his problem, not yours.

So, take your time, trust your instincts and work out what's right for you and your child.

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 15:40:17

something is right - you need to stop seeing him at all.

How can there be no room at his parent's house for his son to visit?

Do they live in a cupboard?

MyNameIsWinkly Sun 03-Nov-13 15:40:38

He's not suffering, he's tantrumming. How many years did you actually suffer married to him? There is no guilt in refusing to be a verbal punchbag any longer. He's done a real number on your self esteem, hasn't he? sad

I think he's done a real number on you anyway Ellie.

He probably met you when you were in a bad place yourself and took full advantage of your naiveity and innate kindness.

Squitten Sun 03-Nov-13 15:43:10

Yes, you really do.

You would be mad to let him back in again so soon. Remember that he has only apparently made this wonderous progress whilst living elsewhere. He has already proven to you that he can't do it living with you.

Trying to live 'seperately' under the same roof will never ever work and you are right not to trust him. He is, in fact, perfectly capable of proving how much he has changed by being a good father and by respecting your desire to have some time apart and figure out what you want for YOURSELF.

The fact he's already trying to worm back in with blackmail and guilt suggests he has learned precisely nothing.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:44:32

He keeps saying he understands, he knows he's screwed up. He just wants one more chance now he realises it all. I'll say, you should have realised this before, he puts his heads in his hands and cries. A lot.

He says the counsellor has made him realise he hates himself. And that's what this has all been about; self sabotage or whatever.

The last few days I've been sorting financials out and it's made me worry slightly. It's not insurmountable but it will be tough. And then this proposition. It would make everything easier in that regard. I bet that's why I'm having a wobble.

The emphatic replies are helping

Thankyouforthemusic Sun 03-Nov-13 15:46:17

I agree with other posters - having read your original thread, you need and deserve to spend time on your own. If he is going through a miraculous transformation, then he can show you this just as well from his parents' house! You're doing well on your own - follow your own gut feelings and don't give in to his whining!

Anniegetyourgun Sun 03-Nov-13 15:48:47

Do read your Lundy Bancroft re why it is difficult for abusers to change their ways. They can, but they have to give up an awful lot of privileges to do so. Most can't manage it.

You might feel sorry for him, because basically you are a nice person and I expect your soon-to-be-ex is genuinely unhappy right now. However, that does not mean you should give in and go back into the box where he can carry on poking you with a stick. It's not good for you, it's not good for DS, and it's not particularly good for H's immortal soul to get his own way in this.

Ellie, I would ask of you how many chances you have previously given him. Likely a fair number. And now he's asking for one more chance the chancer.

What he says is all bs and manipulate bs at that designed to tug at your heartstrings.

Oh and they all bloody cry as well!. It's all designed to make you feel further sorry for them. You think poor lamb, he thinks sucker!. Its all an act. They only act like this long enough to get their feet back under the table then they revert to type; in your case he will start abusing you again as soon as he is back in your home.

He is not sorry at all, he is only sorry that he managed to lose control of you. You were wise indeed to throw him out, he needs to stay gone now.

Tell him to stuff his proposition up his backside and that he will be hearing from your Solicitor in due course.

tribpot Sun 03-Nov-13 15:51:20

I worry that if I did agree to this and we got through the six months with him on his best behaviour, I would feel obliged to give it a shot.

And you're right to be worried, because he knows it too and is banking on it.

he realises he did nothing to support me since DS came along ... He says he and the counsellor have discussed the fact he has been anxious and stressed and trying to be all things to all people.

Except these two statements don't add up. If he was running himself ragged trying to keep everyone happy (in other words: what you do) he would have been supporting you since DS came along.

he can't show me any of his actions if we are not in the same house

Clearly not true, since he is demonstrating that he does not respect your boundaries, your decision or your feelings. Three weeks after the end of a relationship with an emotional abuser and porn addict and what's in YOUR best interest is for him to move back in? Really?

Everything he has said has been about himself. Not you. Not DS. Think about that. Even the comment about waking up in the same house as DS was about how it would make him happy.

TensionSquealsGhoulsHeels Sun 03-Nov-13 15:51:50

I agree with the majority, you need to keep a physical distance from him and you can't do that while he's under the same roof. I also don't get the 'no room for DS' at his parents. Is he sleeping on their living room sofa or does he have a room/bed?

He needs to sort himself out on his own, without using you as his crutch. Don't let him move back in.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:53:28

Good good, I needed this thank you everybody!

No join (hi again btw wine) not a cupboard, Infact I think it's daft he can't take him there although I've not been overly fussed because MIL cries a lot too, and I've never really wanted to promote her obsessive relationship with DS.

Right, I feel stronger again. TBH I was nearly taken again but his little monologue at the end about how happy it would make him if I agreed rang the alarm bells. Moment of weakness.

I need to get tougher on the rules aout contact and coming back to the house. And I will.

atilla yeah he did actually. I was at a real crossroads in life.

One of the things he has been discussing with the counsellor is why he has tried so hard to stifle and control me apparently. I just do not want to go back to that

MyNameIsWinkly Sun 03-Nov-13 15:58:14

Pretending for a moment that I believe he's changing, hates himself and has all these anxieties to work out - in that case it would be the very best thing for him to keep his distance, and not have to try to fix himself and fix his relationship at the same time. So even if he isn't manipulating his hardest, pressing on with your plans is still the right thing to do.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 15:58:51

Also, when I say, you can't have changed in so short a time, if ever, he says its not about changing and the way he has acted in the three years since we got married wasn't the real him but a result of stress.

When I say I think the two years before we got married and he was wonderful were an act, he says no that was the real him.

It isn't though is it. And the three years we were married shouldn't be so stressful it changes you should it?

He just seems to be so genuine at the moment though, it's hard to keep this "yeah right" perspective up. Can he really be doing all this intentionally?

toffeesponge Sun 03-Nov-13 15:59:40

He is playing you. Trying to be all things to all people? When? He wasn't trying to be a supportive husband when you wanted to better yourself.

He is following the script like many other men who realise they can't control their wives anymore.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 16:00:06

"Pretending for a moment that I believe he's changing, hates himself and has all these anxieties to work out - in that case it would be the very best thing for him to keep his distance, and not have to try to fix himself and fix his relationship at the same time. So even if he isn't manipulating his hardest, pressing on with your plans is still the right thing to do."

Very good point. Really good. I think I'm going to steal it for when I tell him my decision

Vivacia Sun 03-Nov-13 16:00:07

He wants six months to demonstrate that he's a better man than he's been? He can do that, but on your terms. What terms would you make them? Contact with son away from your home?

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 03-Nov-13 16:01:29

You've only got his word that any of this conversation with the counsellor actually happened. You don't owe him anything. Not visits at your home, not cosy chat and certainly not counselling in six months. You're clearly a kind, decent and honourable person and unfortunately, to an abusive man, those qualities are interpreted as 'weakness' to be exploited. Hence the sob-story, the head in the hands, the miraculous change of personality, the metaphorical chest-beating and clothes-rending.... it's classic stuff.

No contact would help a lot.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 16:04:11

Yes vivacia exactly, although when I say that he says he can't show me he's changed if its no contact. And then we go round in circles. I say he doesn't need to show me, he says he won't give up. And then round we go again.

Noctilucent Sun 03-Nov-13 16:05:04

"No" is a complete sentence and will give you the space you and your DS need to see that you are both better off without him.

You are strong enough to say no, and you will become stronger as days go by.

I bet there is no counsellor.

FunkyFucker Sun 03-Nov-13 16:05:09

It's funny how he is in touch with his feelings all of a sudden and all his solutions put you right back in the spotlight with him being able to watch you like a hawk. Hmm...convenient.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 16:05:19

cog it's just so hard to believe that someone, especially someone who says they love you so much, can be so deliberately manipulative, and that you can be so taken in

WooWooSister Sun 03-Nov-13 16:05:51

Ellie I understand how difficult this is. When I was speaking to my counsellor whilst trying to leave EA dp, she pointed out that so much of what I said was about him; about his wants, his thoughts, his moods. She asked where I was? And, I realised I wasn't there because I was so used to bending to his moods, accommodating his wishes. Your later posts reminded me of that. Where are you ?

Of course building a new life is scary and yes his finances probably would help but ultimately I'm guessing you didn't leave him because of finances. You left to escape EA and to give your ds the chance of witnessing healthy relationships. None of those points have changed and actually your dp can take the first step to showing he has changed by respecting your boundaries. By continuing to push you, he's showing that he hasn't changed at all. sad

WooWooSister Sun 03-Nov-13 16:08:42

oops, sorry x-posted

Twinklestein Sun 03-Nov-13 16:09:22

He's always controlled you and this is just another way of doing so. He wants to control you so much that he is willing to eat humble pie in order to carry on...

He's terrified of the consequence to his self-esteem of a) having fucked this relationship up & b) not having the ego boost of manipulating you daily.

Seeing that you've behaved badly & actually changing that behaviour are two completely different things. It's incredibly long boring hard work to change fundamental aspects of your personality. And like everyone else, I think he will 'change' just as long as he needs to to get you back under control & then revert to his old ways.

If he had really changed then I think he would see that all his attempts at control are wrong even this supposedly 'benign' one.

WooWooSister's post is a salutary tale: to change for a few years & then go back to being an arsehole: pay particular heed to that experience OP, because you could waste another few years of your life on this.

You DP's proposal will massively confuse your son & it means another 6 months under his domination. Albeit the domination has a new spin to it.

He should have thought about how hard it would be to be apart from ds before when he was behaving so badly.

Even if - by the very longest shot he really has seen the light & really will change long term (ha) - you still need to be apart from him for some considerable time to rebuild your own sense of self.

I think he knows if he leaves & you have space to bloom, you'll never let him back in. So he's holding on to your coat & manipulating you for all he's worth now - while he still can.

If in a year, he's behaved well continually and you still want to give it another shot, then that's your call. But I doubt you will...

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 16:09:33

"he puts his heads in his hands and cries. A lot.

He says the counsellor has made him realise he hates himself. And that's what this has all been about; self sabotage or whatever."

Oh god, what a load of hackneyed old shite.

If he's just weeping with self pity and saying he hates himself and did it all on purpose to "sabotage" his happiness, then he is PLAYING you.

It's the first item on the list of How to Get a Woman to Forgive You by Eustace A. Twatt.

Hi again Ellie smile I was wondering earlier today how you were doing, nice to see that the answer is pretty well, all things considered.

ChippingInLovesAGoodBang Sun 03-Nov-13 16:11:19

Yes - he can be 'doing all of this' intentionally and he is. He knows how to play you and he's doing it - bastard sad

Of course he seems genuine, he's a bloody good actor and knows what to do and say!!

Of course he's upset and crying. He was living with his son and a woman he could control and manipulate to his hearts desire. He has lost control over you and he doesn't like it.

The two years before you got married were the act - I mean christ, if he hadn't acted like that you wouldn't have married him would you hmm the three years where he had you trapped and controlled were 'the real him' - sad to say.

Your Mum means well, but she is wrong, very wrong - you have a lot to lose if you let this man back into your home.

Your DS is confused and upset - it's early days, he'll get over it and he will get over it much more quickly if you ex picks him up and drops him off. You have to put an end to him coming in and playing Daddy in your home, putting him to bed etc - far far too confusing for your DS.

Your DH's happiness is no longer your concern - your happiness and your DS's happiness are what matter. Your DS will be a much happier, much more well adjusted child NOT living with this controlling manipulation bloke.

Stay strong - you know you have done the right thing.

Twinklestein Sun 03-Nov-13 16:13:42

Ellie - he may be deceiving himself as much as he's deceiving you.
He may well want to change, but he's not been at the process long enough to know what a long, long haul that is going to be, and just how much effort & commitment it will take.

He's going to have to practice not being an arsehole every single minute of every single day. It's like being an alcoholic...

Sorry but he sounds extremely manipulative and quite cunning.

ChippingInLovesAGoodBang Sun 03-Nov-13 16:15:23

When he says 'I can't show you I have changed if we don't live together' simply say 'That's fine, I can live with that. I don't care if you have changed or not, this is over'. Make it clear that nothing he says or does is going to change your mind.

He is who he is, people do not fundamentally change. He will always be a controlling, manipulative bastard who thinks his needs are the only ones that matter.

Ellie,

I thought that was the case re time of your originally meeting this person. He targeted you then just as he is targeting you now to pull you back into his web of control.

He will do and say anything to get you back under his control. Do not fall for it. Falling for it will only prolong your own agonies. You need to keep saying no and mean it.

WooWooSister's post should also be seen as a salutary lesson to you as well. He will never let you be your own person, he is quite happy to subsume your own identity so you end up not knowing who the bloody hell you really are.

Not at all surprised either to see that his own mother is of a not entirely dissimilar disposition; we after all learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. He learnt all this from her.

Anniegetyourgun Sun 03-Nov-13 16:15:59

Yes, that's exactly the point: he is saying he will stop being so controlling, whilst at the same time continuing to pursue what he wants rather than what you want (ie some time apart). If he had a genuine revelation it would have revealed to him that this woman has a right not to live with you if she doesn't want to. But he is not recognising you have that right, in practice. He's just paying it lip service at best, and occasionally less than that.

Love, you see, means different things to different people. He loves you like a child loves its toy. He bites it, throws it at the wall, takes out his frustrations on it, but cries when it's taken away. He doesn't recognise it has feelings. Well, the child is right about the stuffed toy, but the grown-up is wrong about the real live woman. She does have feelings, and hers have been disregarded too often already.

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 16:18:40

Great post there by Annie

Love the thing about the stuffed toy grin

Twinklestein Sun 03-Nov-13 16:21:34

I'm prepared to believe he does genuinely hate & sabotage himself. I do think that that is at the heart of a lot of abusive behaviour. However, he is parading it like a wound to get sympathy and control...

It's not true that he can't show you that he's changed if you don't live together. That is a bare-faced lie. Moreover the fact that he's trying to bully you into living with him, proves he hasn't changed.

Anniegetyourgun Sun 03-Nov-13 16:21:58

I may have read it somewhere, to be fair grin

Hi Ellie,
NO, don't let him move back in. He's slowly worming his way back into the house.
This is not "one more chance"
His chance is to show you how he's changed by leaving you alone.
He wants to move back in because it suits him, he's not thinking about you for one second. Why did he think you split up?
Do you see how little he thinks of you by giving you this crap about how he's changed?
His only fear is that you come to your senses properly while you have some space from him.

Don't talk to him! You don't have to give any reasons, you have split up! Text him or email him your decision (NO to moving back in and NO to coming into the house again to see your son) and do not get into a discussion with him.
You've done remarkably well, don't undo it all now.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 03-Nov-13 16:25:41

Thanks all so much for your replies, I'm about to be picked up by friends to take DS to a bonfire so I will read them all later.

Really appreciate the support xx

Lweji Sun 03-Nov-13 16:30:59

That would be a no.

I don't think it is a good idea. It can be very stressful having separated partners in the same house, it's confusing for the children and who knows what he'd do once he got home again.

I saw exH change tack as he crossed the threshold because I felt sorry for him.

I'd be telling him he's not coming back and that if he really wants it he can start showing he's changed by not pressuring me.

It's likely that he'll be back to his old self in a week, and you won't be able to chuck him out of the house.
If anything, put the house sale on hold just in case.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 03-Nov-13 16:53:10

I think, when it comes to emotional bullies, 'love' can one of the most manipulative words going. The use it as both carrot and stick, giving it and taking it away when it suits. Whether it's deliberate, as in planned, is debatable. That would take intelligence! However, I think they are very selfish & work on the basis of it being OK to do whatever it takes to get what they want, no matter who gets hurt in the process.

Stay strong. This one's not for leaving you alone.

GiveItYourBestFucker Sun 03-Nov-13 17:30:17

Ellie, it is very stressful to live in the same house as someone you're separated from. I think on a very practical level, trying to deal with that stress would make it harder for you to study towards your qualification.

cjel Sun 03-Nov-13 17:39:27

Wouldn't do this for a million pounds, No counsellor after a couple of sessions would agree this was a good idea. and he can show you he has changed while living away.
Say no and I bet his reaction will be interestingx

BakerStreetSaxRift Sun 03-Nov-13 18:03:49

It sounds like he is using this course as a way to reel you back in. He's picked on something he knew he was cruel to not let you do (he must have known at the time - and not cared - otherwise he wouldn't remember it).

He's pulled this one out of the bag to manipulate you, but it won't last, and will be held against you.

Or, he can withdraw it at a moment's notice if things aren't going his way... Think about that.

Space is what you need.

SisterMonicaJoan Sun 03-Nov-13 18:54:50

Just read your other thread...

Please do not let this man worm his way back into your home and your life. You've been so strong and just as the fog lifted, in he comes trying to mess with you - stay strong!

mammadiggingdeep Sun 03-Nov-13 19:00:55

I say you should be open to him proving himself to you, yes to him being around more to allow you to get your qualification but he should do all this from another house. You sound like you still need space away from him. 3 weeks is not enough space and time in my opinion.

Hugs x

lovemenot Sun 03-Nov-13 19:02:16

You got him out, keep him out!

I'm the same as Woowoosister, we were apart for 5 years and I only saw him when he collected our dd.

I now recognize the deliberate and controlled campaign to get me back, starting with the sadness and puppy dog eyes. It took him two years. But he forgot to tell me he loved me on our wedding day, and eventually admitted at counseling that "we" got back together for practical (i.e financial - paying child support was draining his resources!) reasons. Getting out this time is proving much harder.

So, don't believe him, he is not concerned with what you want, only with what he wants.

JoinYourPlayfellows Sun 03-Nov-13 19:13:34

"yes to him being around more to allow you to get your qualification"

No, no, no to this.

Don't put yourself in a position where you have to rely on him for something like this.

He will use it to control you.

They very suggestion that him moving in would be a way that you could do it is an attempt to use the promise of it to get his own way.

Terrortree Sun 03-Nov-13 19:17:56

There's something unusual about your posting style. Most people write from their own perspective, particularly so when writing during an emotional time. So you read a lot about 'I' and 'me': that is one's own feelings, actions, behaviours and attitudes. Nothing wrong with that at all: after all if you can't be sure of yourself, what on earth can we be sure of?

When you write, you focus on his perspective, feelings, behaviour, wants, needs, statements. You focus on what he says about everything. You occasionally write about your son. You rarely write about your feelings, wants, needs, attitude. When you do it is very self-deprecating.

From that I infer, that you have no sense of your own needs and wants. It seems to me that you don't seem to consider prioritising yourself, and you don't 'allow' yourself to have an opinion or an attitude very much. Does that make sense? If you were to focus on your wishes, needs, wants, feelings first - how does that change your attitude, if at all?

What do you want? How do you envisage your future?

It is perfectly okay for you to say, "you know what I want/need/feel, it's..."

SirSugar Sun 03-Nov-13 20:19:07

I fucking despise abusive men.

My H was abusive, he cried a lot when I wouldn't let him in the house until I left the morning after he gave me two black eyes. He later shouted when I told him I had been to a solicitor and was filing for divorce. Then he cried/shouted abuse/cried and so on and so on.

Not long after that he suddenly got sick and died - I cried, but it was tears of relief; how sad is that? I was relieved I never had to deal with him again ( though he occasionally pops up in my dreams whereby I usually tell him to get lost ). How would you feel if your H was never coming back?

These men almost always revert to type. I did 15 years hardcore service in my marriage, promises of better behaviour, counselling (didn't work he jumped ship when he thought I was under control ) even family intervention.

I used to have depression/mood swings/anger/frustration/cry a lot until he died and I never relaxed. I just don't have these problems now and I have found myself.

DP whom I live with now is an entirely different character, thoughtful, loving, caring and it would be utterly impossible to turn him into an abusive cunt, as much as getting an abusive cunt to stop their disgusting behaviour.

L.T.B.

You will never look back

EllieInTheRoom Mon 04-Nov-13 08:25:32

I have woken up with a clear head. And I think it would be ridiculous to allow this. more than anything, I don't want to feel like I owe him anything as I would then feel the famous guilt/obligation afterwards and feel even more trapped.

Funnily enough I have already spoken to my mum about my what my fears of going ahead are and even she said to forget her advice from yesterday. So thanks everybody you really helped me put things into words.

annie I loved the toy analogy!

sirsugar I'm sorry you went through that. Your story resonated a little bit. about a year ago, I was verging on depression I think, I used to have panic attacks about dying. I got really scared I would die without being properly happy first. I told my mum about them, although she didnt really understand, I told her that I felt like a bad person because I had thought about what if H died and how much easier it would be because I was so unhappy. That didnt go down well at all.

terror your comment, shocked me a little bit, but then I suppose it's right. I've surprised myself lately on my inability to think for myself and I just think its because I've never had to. It sounds silly but I'm the youngest in a large family of big personalities, also, I qualified in my profession early and progressed quickly so I have always been by far the youngest among my colleagues and groups of friends. I think because of this, I always just followed the crowd, went where they wanted to go, watched what everybody else wanted to watch, listened to what everybody else wanted to listen to etc.

I always put this down to being easygoing and laid back, but actually it was just pretty lazy. It was the same when I got with H, I never minded what we did, so I probably didnt notice he had controlling tendencies. I always knew he was a bit troubled and I made him happy. So that was my job to make him happy, and in turn he looked after me. But then he didnt look after me at all, and well, it turns out I could never make him happy. Although I am not self deprecating enough to think that's entirely my fault.

Anyway, I think in the future I just want to be happy. And independent. And to grab all the opportunities that come by and just enjoy life again. And show all of this to DS.

Thans everyone for your comments again, I really don't know how I would have done all this without this board. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't come here yesterday, I'd have just allowed him to move back in today and ignored the screaming mini me on my shoulder.
thanks

Vivacia Mon 04-Nov-13 11:33:13

Well done OP, I hope you can keep us updated on how your ex responds.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 04-Nov-13 11:42:37

I think this man is the one that has been reading "Why Does He Do That"

OP, glad to see your wobble has stabilised. Some great advice you have had on this thread. Please do post again if you have another weak moment.

JoinYourPlayfellows Mon 04-Nov-13 13:40:22

Well done, Ellie, glad you are feeling good about your decision. smile

perfectstorm Mon 04-Nov-13 13:50:05

He is not an out and out horrible man, although he can be. He gets me to do what he wants with guilt trips, he knows my weak spot. I don't trust him to not exploit it.

This is your honest opinion, so trust it. Why live with someone you can't trust to have your best interests at heart?

I quoted this from Nora Ephron a couple of times this week: "Never marry someone you wouldn't like to be divorced from". By that, she meant examine how they are when not madly in love and on their best behaviour. Look at how they treat people they feel angrily towards. No, he may well not make a nice ex... but in that case, why on earth want to remain with him? At least an ex is not in your hair 24/7.

Almost everyone is lovely when dating and before the real hard part of life and marriage kicks in. How they behave then - and I don't mean the normal scratchiness of tiredness and stress - is so telling. Manipulation, bullying and contempt is no way for anyone to live and he can't sort out those issues while using you as a security blanket, can he.

You'll be fine. But his issues are not your problem and not your responsibility, especially when you have been the victim - why go back for round two with no evidence at all anything has changed? He's still thinking only of his own needs and wants, and that isn't a good sign, is it.

perfectstorm Mon 04-Nov-13 13:52:38

And you know, you do sound so sane, when talking it all through. That's a gift as a parent you can offer your child. I'm so glad you aren't getting sucked back into the vortex of misery and drama - your DS can grow up with his main home a stable and together one. As someone who didn't have that as a child, it's been my primary aim for my own kids. It makes growing up so much easier, from all I hear and see.

Noregrets78 Mon 04-Nov-13 14:12:22

you really remind me of me a year ago!

Brilliant advice you've had on here, glad you've taken it on board. It's so hard to see someone suffer, even someone who has treated you badly. But it's not your fault... and you can't be a good mum if you're not looking after yourself.

This is about you not him. you're not doing this to deliberately hurt him, and you're not doing anything wrong.

Set the boundaries yourself, free from his influence. If he genuinely wants to change, he can do that from a different location. See how you feel in 6 months+... but if he's been on his best behaviour for all that time, that doesn't mean you are obliged to take him back, or go to marriage counselling. You may find that you're happier on your own, and that's OK!!

Definitely no more child contact in your home - that's more unsettling for DC as well. It's up to him where he takes DS, but maintain your own personal space.

So glad to read that you are seeing it all more clearly now.
Stick to your guns.
Happiness is out there waiting for you.
Don't be drawn back into a relationship with this horrible controlling abuser!
You also need to sort out contact away from your house.
Or if he has to, then have a friend there if you can so he can't get you on your own.
Good luck with moving onwards and upwards.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 04-Nov-13 16:07:22

I really hope you are now going to change the child contact arrangements

It is quite clear that him seeing dc in your home is too confusing for all of you.

Terrortree Mon 04-Nov-13 17:04:26

I'm glad you understood my post - I dithered about posting it because it could easily come across wrongly. I didn't want to add to your upset, nor indeed shock you, but just ensure you had contemplated your own needs during this difficult time.

Good to see you making some decisions about your future. Well done you!

I wish you all the best.

FunkyBoldRibena Mon 04-Nov-13 17:18:07

Always listen to the mini me on your shoulder...is my advice.

Well done and stay strong. x

EllieInTheRoom Mon 04-Nov-13 20:21:58

storm thanks, it's nice to be called sane, especially when I am sure there are a few people around my neck of the woods who probably think I'm anything but after the trials of the last few weeks.

terror oh I didn't mean shocked in a bad way, I mean it just made me sit up and think. And also I was surprised that anybody else noticed! Thanks

Everybody else mentioned the issue of contact, and I would actually like advice on this if anybody has any to give.

Up until now, H has been coming on a Wednesday afternoon and I have been going to my DPs to work and sleep and he has also been coming after his work at 5 pm on a Saturday and again I will vacate until Sunday morning.

This is for a number of reasons really, he's staying at his DPs who do have a spare room, albeit a small one. His dad is disabled and quite ill and I actually think it would be a bit much for them if DS stayed over there, especially in his current phase of being up most of the night.

Also, because DS has started being so unsettled at night again, after a few nights I am glad of the break. BUT I will happily forgo this if it is the wrong thing to do.

H has been insistent on doing as many overnights as I will allow. He has been pushing for more. He has this fixation of waking up in same house and getting ds out of bed. God knows why because he was never forthcoming in getting up with him when he lived here.

When he comes on a Wednesday afternoon, H says he wants to come in and play for a bit rather than pick him up at the door. He says he feels this would be too confusing for DS.

I want to argue against this now and say it has to be more formal. Can you give me any good arguments for this?

I am also thinking of suggesting he he stops doing the overnights until he finds his own place to live. But is this fair on DS? He does loving seeing his daddy and this would mean he sees him less temporarily.

EllieInTheRoom Mon 04-Nov-13 20:23:58

I should add the lease on this house is up in the middle of January and financially it makes sense for me to wait until then to move

H wants to stay at his DPs for now. Probably because he is convinced he can get back in the door at some point!

Lweji Mon 04-Nov-13 20:28:40

TBH, there are no particular reasons for overnights. They are asleep most of the time, and I suspect it is a plot for him to weasel his way back.
Spending the day with his dad gives plenty of quality time together and puts him firmly where he belongs.

Overnight stays at yours and him playing daddy at home WILL confuse your DS more, not the handovers at the door. Your ex is not there anymore and the clearer it is, the easier it will be for your DS.
I'd be adamant about it and wouldn't be open for discussion at all.

JoinYourPlayfellows Mon 04-Nov-13 20:30:17

Just tell him that since you are separated that it is not fair on any of you, but particularly your son, to have him coming and going from the house.

He needs to sort out accommodation that will allow him to have his son overnight if he wants overnights.

It is not your responsibility to make sure that happens. It is his own.

EllieInTheRoom Mon 04-Nov-13 20:32:30

"TBH, there are no particular reasons for overnights. They are asleep most of the time, and I suspect it is a plot for him to weasel his way in"

I agree it probably is, though DS is a very early riser (5.30) so they do have those extra couple of hours before I get home. I know I need to be firm but I don't want to deprive DS. Also Hs work means he can't easily make up the time another day in the week. But is this his problem not mine?

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 04-Nov-13 20:33:19

If he has no suitable place to host overnights, then he does not host overnights. Full stop. Perhaps it will concentrate his mind to sort it out, and stop relying on the fact he clearly expects to have his feet back under your table some time very soon.

he can still have day time contact and either take dc to his parents or do what every other non resident parent who hasn't got their own place does...swimming, park, soft play etc

you are not obliged to provide somewhere for him to interact with his own dc and neither to facilitate his relationship with them

he's a Big Boy now and this is his responsibility to sort out

what is happenign now is giving mixed signals to everybody but mainly to your dc, and he is the important one here

EllieInTheRoom Mon 04-Nov-13 20:37:26

You're right it is mixed signals isn't it, to be honest, I did sort of agree that in the short term until we each hd our own places sorted out that it actually would be easier on DS to be mainly based at home.

But it IS confusing him as things stand. He is really unsettled at night, this must be the reason. I know it is bound to have an impact but i think his reaction has been more than what you would expect and it must be the way we are handling it.

Right, consider it done. More tips and advice welcome

thanks

MistAllChuckingFrighty Mon 04-Nov-13 20:49:58

thanks

perfectstorm Mon 04-Nov-13 23:48:22

If you tell your ex that your DS is upset and unsettled and not having a clear demarcation between both homes/parents is bad for him, and you think he needs to start taking him out for contact elsewhere then he's fighting for his interests and against your son's if he argues.

Muddily protracted separations must be horrible for kids - they don't know what's going on. Though I do sympathise with the ex on wanting overnights - very different parenting experience - the solution lies in his own hands, in that he can sort somewhere to live which would enable him to parent DS in his own home, not yours.

EllieInTheRoom Sun 17-Nov-13 21:19:22

Hello again everybody,

He's still applying the pressure to get back together and I am still resisting.

He is now saying that when the dust has settled he wants DS for three days and three nights. The thought of it is just eating me up.

I was arguing about it not being best for DS as he needs routine and H doesn't know from one week to the next how much he is working. He said he is going to change jobs and reduce hours (something he would never do no matter how much I begged him before).

I didn't do very well in the discussion about it, I panicked. To buy myself more time I agreed to go to a counselling session. But I retread this thread and attilas comments so I'll get out of that.

The thought of DS being away so much is so upsetting. Can I stop it?? I wanted to agree the contact without solicitors. Are there any other arguments against or do I need to accept this could happen?

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