Note: Mumsnetters don't necessarily have the qualifications or experience to offer relationships counselling or to provide help in cases of domestic violence. Mumsnet can't be held responsible for any advice given on the site. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

Coping strategies needed (probably tmi)

(344 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread. Read here.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:14:03

This isn't an easy subject to ask about and possibly some people will find it distasteful and for that I apologise.

I need coping strategies to help me get through having sex with my H. For reasons I can't go into leaving is not an option for a few years. It just isn't. I wholly wish it was.

But because we are not intimate with each other (my choice) tension is very high in the house. Intolerably so. The only answer to this (and I know because I know it's all that works) is for me to recommence relationships with a man who quite frankly makes my skin crawl. He is EA and has no respect for me, not exactly a turn on.

The last time I finally gave in after a month of demands, I felt ill and dirty for days afterwards. Is there anyway (other than getting very drunk) I can cope better with this? Meditation gets me through the act, so to speak but the thoughts afterwards are the problem.

I'm wondering if it's better done in the morning, hold it together and get the kids to school after then a very hot bath and try to blot it out. Sleeping afterwards never works.

I know it shouldn't be like this. I just need help getting the next few years out of the way. Any ideas?

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 10:17:02

Please don't do this to yourself. You are worth so much more.

notanyanymore Sun 15-Sep-13 10:20:46

have you thought about contacting women's aid? they should be able to get you a 'support worker' who is basically someone you meet with/talk to privately who will help you with strategies and also assist with providing you with all the information you need regarding leaving when you choose to do so.
They're not all about helping you run for the hills into a safe house, they will provide real support for you.

Your OP is very sad, please, there has to be another way rather than subjecting yourself to this. Please call women's aid or talk to us maybe we can come up with something. thanks

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:23:33

I have all the information I need ready for when I can leave. I can't now. I've had financial advice, legal advice. But what I need is to get through the next few years without us all living in misery because his "needs aren't met".

I have to do this and I need to be able to cope without falling apart.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 10:25:32

I honestly think doing this will damage you for life. You must already be in a very bad place to be considering it.

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 10:31:06

Leaving is an option, I suspect you've had very bad advice if you've been told to sit it out for a few years. Taking a financial hit is surely worth it to avoid the scenario you describe?

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:36:00

The financial reason isn't why I'm staying. I can assure you that if I could leave and being penniless was my only problem then I would go.

I don't need advice on leaving now. I just need to cope. There must be somebody on here who has had to deal with something like this?

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 10:38:08

Could you explain your reasons for staying? That might help us understand better so we can advise you.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:40:57

You absolutely cannot continue doing this to yourself.

If he knows what you are going through and goes ahead with having sex on you anyway, well...there are no words.

This is one of the saddest things I've ever read.

Please see a counsellor.

Roshbegosh Sun 15-Sep-13 10:43:08

You will be living in misery whether you meet his needs or not, as long as you are together.

Johnny5needsinput Sun 15-Sep-13 10:43:47

You can't do this. It will drive you insane. Been there. Done that.

You have to leave. For your own mental well being

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:44:10

I'm sorry I can't. It's too specific and there's a chance somebody in RL might see and identify me. Please believe me if I could go then I would.

I'm not being held against my will or anything like that. I just have to stay for now, for my children's sake. And I want their lives for the next few years to seem happy. I can do it on a day to day basis, nobody would ever know. I have to figure this out too. On a S and B thread I was reading somebody was talking about a bath with dettol in. I need ideas like that, practical things I can do. Alcohol just means I have a hangover to deal with as well afterwards!

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 10:45:43

OP no one is going to advise you how to torture yourself. If it's dangerous to leave then there are people who can help with that.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:46:02

He knows I hate it. Knows I will do anything to get out of doing it. I think he gets a kick out of knowing that.

Yes I've seen a counsellor. This is why I can be so level headed and unemotional about this. I'm so detached from him that to have to do this is beyond difficult.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:46:09

Please stop.

Please.

You will ruin your life. You will not emerge from this mentally well. No amount of Dettol in the world will remove the damage this will do to you.

You believe that you cannot leave. That does not make it true. You can.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:46:39

Then he is raping you.

Penguin2 Sun 15-Sep-13 10:46:54

Beyond taking yourself off into a fantasy world and trying not to think about the man you are with, I have no practical advice. I do know what it is like though to live with a man who sours the family atmosphere simply because he isn't getting 'it'. sad

Presumably he has some idea that you are not keen on having sex with him (you say the last time you had sex was after a month of going without and you talk about recommencing relationships) so what would happen if you told him you do not wish to have any further sexual relationships and he is free to look for sex outside the marriage? Could you do that or would that cause intolerable or undesirable repercussions?

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 10:47:46

Does your counsellor know about this?

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:48:15

I've told him he can go elsewhere. He doesn't want to.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:48:44

If you really think your children will not be affected by their mother being abused by their father for years, then you really need to go back to the counsellor, or find a different one, and work that belief through.

They need good relationships modelled to them, and a well mother.

This sounds nightmarish.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Sun 15-Sep-13 10:48:52

The only possible advice would be second paragraph of Penguin's post.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Sun 15-Sep-13 10:49:32

So he'd rather sleep with you even though he knows you don't want to?

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 10:49:39

You are not being level headed and unemotional. Your counsellor would be horrified if they saw this thread. Did they suggest coping mechanisms? I doubt this is what they meant.

Roshbegosh Sun 15-Sep-13 10:50:36

Is this some kind of visa issue? Did you feel like this when you married him?

HidingFromDD Sun 15-Sep-13 10:50:45

Ok, while I don't think this would work for me, it's obviously something you have given a lot of thought to. It will only work for you if you can feel in control of the situation, and understand that you are doing this from a position of strength, it is not something you should feel ashamed and dirty about.

There's some 'practicalities' that you need to consider (like how to make it as quick as possible, introduce lube beforehand etc), which should make things easier for you, and perhaps treating it like just another job will allow you to disengage emotionally about it. You need to make sure that when you come out of this you accept that you did what needed to be done in a bad situation, and give yourself credit for that, not feel ashamed or guilty.

And before I get flamed here, whilst I haven't been in this situation as an adult, I had a physically and emotionally abusive (not sexually) parent and learned that sometimes it really isn't possible to get out right away, you just do what has to be done until the situation can be changed...

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 10:51:27

OP, taking you at your word and answering the question you are actually asking :

Could you describe the sex more? Is it just normal intercourse but upsetting because you hate him? Or does he push for freaky or demeaning acts?

Going passive may not be the way. Maybe you should be sexually aggressive and initiate it a lot. Be more powerful that way? I would think he might not like it and would soon be turning you down. I'm an asshole, and I can see myself doing that just to feel in control.

WhoNickedMyName Sun 15-Sep-13 10:51:38

Nobody on here is going to give you any "tips" on how to "get through" being raped on a regular basis, sorry.

Please get in touch with women's aid.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:52:08

Yes I agree children need good relationships modelled to them. And I'm doing my utmost here for that.

Yes my counsellor knows. It's not an easy situation for her to advise on. We are working on ways of possibly getting out earlier but it can't be rushed and has to be planned. Until then I have this hanging over me every night when I come to bed.

Flipper934 Sun 15-Sep-13 10:52:21

I'm not going to ask you to justify why you're still there, though I do agree with previous posters. Instead, I'll take you at face value, and accept that you know your situation and that you really can't leave.

This leaves you with two choices - refuse sex and put up with a high level of tension, or accept a sexual relationship that makes you feel dirty and ill. You are asking for help in managing the latter situation. I think people will find it hard to offer any help with this, because it just feels so very wrong. Would it not be better to look at how you can manage the tension that results from not having sex?

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:52:40

Sorry, Hiding, I find your post well intentioned, but sickening.

Introduce lube?

Where should the OP buy this? Online, or should she pop into the nearest Boots to buy the lube that will allow a man who makes her skin crawl to have sex on her against her will?

No. No, no, no.

WhoNickedMyName Sun 15-Sep-13 10:52:45

I stand corrected hmm.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:55:10

I could put up with any amount of tension in the house.

Bollocks to him. Let him slam all the doors he likes.

That's far easier to ignore than him climbing on top of you and having sex against your will.

I can give you all the coping strategies you need to cope with a grown man acting like a petulant child, but nobody on here is going to enable a rapist.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:55:12

Hidingfrom - thank you. It's that kind of thing I need to know.

I'm really sorry that it's such a horrible situation to ask for help on. To the poster who asked if it was always like this? No I loved him, married him and built a life with him and then one day realised just how EA he was and that I deserved better. And the scales fell off.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 10:56:22

Really good idea from flipper - could you manage the tension?

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 10:56:34

Oh, it seems they are.

Initiate it a lot?

Good grief.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:57:03

I don't care about the tension directed at me. But when he's miserable to the children? Ignores them and patronises them. That I care about. So yeah if I have to be a whore so their lives are happy for a few years then I will do that. I just need to get through it.

Viking1 Sun 15-Sep-13 10:57:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 10:57:48

I actually nearly threw up from the idea of initiating it. Sorry. I can't do that.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 10:58:51

Does the tension noticeably decrease after sex? How often would you have to do it to control the tension?

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 10:59:26

So he's a prick towards your children? Do you really think an orgasm or two is going to change that?

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:00:02

Far better that he rapes their mother, then?

Being ignored and patronised by one parent while the other one gives you everything you need - plenty of people have this scenario. Your children will just grow up thinking their dad was a twat and their mum was fantastic.

God knows how they'll be affected by living in a house riddled with sexual violence and a completely surrendered mother.

I think I've said all I can say on this matter. Good luck, OP.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:00:38

He's like a different man afterwards. Probably once a fortnight would do it. Christ how bloody calculating is it that I'm working out how many times that will need to be sad

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:02:13

You hate this man.

So do I, and I've never met him.

Refuse him. With any luck he'll go elsewhere.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:02:15

I'm just going on the assumption that the EA includes demanding sex that he knows makes the OP feel awful. I can see myself taking that away from him by turning the tables. I've been in a bad EA relationship, so I can picture the dynamic. However, the way I actually dealt with it was to leave.

I can't imagine what situation actually necessitates staying put. It's most likely that the OP is wrong and just thinks she's trapped. But, if I take her at her word, then that's the way I would probably try to cope.

Penguin2 Sun 15-Sep-13 11:03:02

I can understand why Toast doesn't want to manage the tension, having been in a lesser but similar situation to her myself. As she says, it is not the tension directed at her that is the issue, but that directed towards the children who are innocents in this whole situation.

However, if you are nearly physically sick at the thought of initiating sex - well, words fail me. sad

I can't think that any coping strategies could possibly be of any help. I just don't know what else to say except you have my sympathy and I hope you can leave him sooner than you think.

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 11:03:12

OP I'm curious as to why you think single parenthood is so horrendous that the current situation is preferable for your children. Why do you think they couldn't be happy if you left?

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 11:03:57

I think if you're seriously considering this then you need to think clearly about what it means for you and for the children.

Op, please answer just one question: is this a visa/custody issue?

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:05:08

Single parenthood wouldn't be horrendous. I can think of nothing more lovely tbh.

Every night I fall asleep imagining the life I will be able to lead if I can just get through till then.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 11:05:14

toast cannot offer any advice on how to cope, sorry, I would not be able to do this so cannot advise on it.

Just wanted to offer some support and some sympathy that you find yourself in this awful situation. if you need to come and rant and vent and let it out in order to cope with the broader issues of EA as well as this specific issue then please come to the E A thread. It may help get you through until you can leave.

Without prying too much into your circumstances which you clearly don't want to go into details of, I take it there are reasons why you will not go to the police? What he is doing is illegal and you could have arrested and kept away from you and their children.
(possibly without affecting e.g. your marital status if that is the reason you are staying)

EA thread even if it is just to lurk and read.
[[

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:05:21

Oh God, I'm still here...

OP, I thought I couldn't end my marriage. I put up with being unhappy for ten years. Nothing like as bad as the scenario you describe, but bad enough for me to want to leave.

Then I did it. Nobody died. The world kept turning. I'm happy now.

You can leave. Under any circumstances other than a gun to your head and a locked door, you CAN leave.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:05:37

Once a fortnight won't do it. It will escalate. I think you should refuse sex and deal with the fallout. Your children will be ok with it. You can't hide the fact that he's an asshole from them.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:05:46

Oh sorry missed that question - no not visa/custody. It's complicated but not in that way.

Repeatedlydoingthetwist Sun 15-Sep-13 11:06:13

Completely agree with all Tawdry said. This is in no way healthy for your DC's and I suspect will end up damaging them further.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:07:00

If you told us the situation, I'm sure someone on here will be able to talk you through the possibilities of leaving.

Then namechange.

HidingFromDD Sun 15-Sep-13 11:09:07

Honestly, Toast, I think you need to look at what you are expecting things to be like a few years down the line. You need to be able to get out of this situation with the children safe, but with you whole and able to cope as well. Unless you can manage that extreme reaction then there's a distinct possibility that if you go this route you'll be irreversibly broken and that won't help the children at all.

If that's the case, you need to look at the alternatives, which is managing the tension. Would it be an option to tell him to go elsewhere? There's plenty of 'casual' dating sites around.

And I know that none of these are good examples for the children, the ideal situation is to leave and it may be that you could work it so it happens a lot quicker once you've got the plan 'in motion'

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 11:10:43

If someone said your children had to spend the next few years living with a rapist would you be ok with that?

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:10:51

I have suggested he goes elsewhere. I've even tried to engineer situations to that end. Doesn't work.

I'm working on the leaving but I have to be realistic. I might be able to speed it up abit but not a lot.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:11:06

I was thinking of how I'd cope if I were literally being held prisoner or something. If this is a visa thing, that could be similar.

But, I don't think appeasement is a good idea. If his goal is to make your life miserable, then he will press on and find what does hurt you.

Why is the sex awful? For emotional reasons or because of the actual things he does? I'm not sure it makes a difference, really. I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:11:57

He isn't a rapist if I agree.

He won't rape me. Eventually it will be so miserable here I will give in. And then everyone will be happy again. Apart from me which is why I need to make it ok for me.

LisaMedicus Sun 15-Sep-13 11:12:08

Would just sucking his cock work for you and get him off your back? Could you tolerate it, particularly if he was lying down so harder for him to choke you?

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:12:23

So, it's a case of him refusing to leave?

And you can't leave because...?

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 11:12:30

You could take it elsewhere to discuss if it is sensitive.

Will pm you. hope this is ok.

I have to say you could try once a fortnight but I suspect that once he realise you are only doing it to stop him being mean to your lids he will be mean more often to get sex more often. being mean to the dcs gets him a reward. (this is not your fault! This is just the way abusers work. they have worked out that being abusive nasty Twunts gets themwhat they want sad and once one need is met they have more)

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:12:55

Yes he is.

SUCK HIS COCK??

Oh for the love of Christ.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:13:31

It's not awful for any kinky reasons. It's just that he really dislikes me. Belittles me and has no respect for me and then I'm supposed to do that? To me it's something you do in love or I guess lust. Neither of those are here, it's just ownership for him.

forumdonkey Sun 15-Sep-13 11:13:34

I really can't get my head round this.

I don't care about the tension directed at me. But when he's miserable to the children? Ignores them and patronises them You want to LTB, your DC's are suffering but you won't leave yet. I know I don't know the reasons why you chose to put yourself and your DC's through this but is it really worth hanging on any longer?

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:13:35

What is he saying about sex? And what does he do to make your life unbearable in the meantime?

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 11:13:43

Jesus Lisa are you deliberately goading the OP?

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 11:14:17

If he knows you don't enjoy it and goes ahead anyway that is rape.

KellyHopter Sun 15-Sep-13 11:14:34

There is no "can't" leave.
There is weighing everything up and opting to stay because there's some benefit in doing so. And that's fine, but you're doing what so many people do and claiming you can't go, and that will just encourage people to assure you that you can.
If he is a shit father then you can't change that. Fucking him won't change that.
Your children have zero control over this situation. I'll save my pity for them.

If you haven't talked to Women's Aid or social services, then I don't believe you are well informed as to whether you can leave or not.

I suspect your counselor does not agree you are trapped, but is trying to get you to come around to the realisation that you can leave sooner.

You are not detached because you are dealing with it. You are detached because you are traumatised and not free.

I've been raped. I'm not going to give you tips on how to cope with it because it's not your only option.

If you give us even an inkling of why you think you can't leave, we can help you. Let us solve that problem for you, we're good at that.

Blondeorbrunette Sun 15-Sep-13 11:16:14

Suck his cock!

Sweet Jesus

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:16:25

He knows you don't want to have sex with him.

Instead of treating you well and lovingly, he coerces you over a long period of time by making life so unbearable for you and your children that you eventually lie down and open your legs for him.

He has sex on a woman with gritted teeth and a dry vagina.

This cheers him up, until he starts feeling horny again and the cycle restarts.

He's a rapist.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:17:12

If it's his hatred of you that makes you feel like that, then I don't think any amount of lying back and thinking of England will help. You can disassociate, but you will not be able to reintegrate later.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 11:19:20

Op I am afraid it is rape. he is coercing you into having sexwith himwhen he knows full well you don't want to. the coercion may not be physical but it is still coercion. and it is the fact that it is rape that is making you react so badly and so physically. sad

He is a rapist and a sadist.

Viking1 Sun 15-Sep-13 11:20:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:24:25

I think having a go at the OP is unhelpful. She is clearly so ground down by her horrible life that she is no longer in a position to be able to make good decisions. It's easy to judge from a position of strength.

OP, you need to get strong so you can make the only decision left to make, for yourself and your children. Allowing yourself to be raped on a regular basis will not get you where you need to be.

Thank you for answering my question but now I just dont understand. If there's nothing physically stopping you, if single parenthood is what you strive for, then please get the hell out.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 11:25:09

You have been on here before havent you? You are the poster who is staying for the children? Cant quite remember all the details.

Teeb Sun 15-Sep-13 11:26:35

Op you are allowing your children to grow up in an abusive home with a rapist. I don't believe they can be happy like this, not now and certainly not as they become older and understand more. You need to understand that you are responsible for their safety and you are leaving them damaged. Don't think you can take the brunt of the abuse and it doesn't filter down to your children because it absolutely does. Are you comfortable with that?

You will also do your fair bit to giving these children damaging lessons about relationships if you go ahead with this madness.

Your children pick up on all this tension, is this really the legacy you want to be leaving them?. Is this what you want to teach them about relationships?. They will be just further traumatise them as adults.

No reason is good enough to stay, no matter how complicated or complex it may appear to be. There is no justification for staying.

There are around 63 million people in this country, what are the chances realistically of you being outed?.

Toast, I really think it's a shame you can't/won't leave. But in the meantime can you make him use condoms whenever you have sex? They can create a barrier between you and him. Not coming into contact with his semen may help you feel less soiled afterwards. Use lube too so you don't have to worry about being dry if that's an issue.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:28:31

Oh Lord, enough with the lube and condoms. Really.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:31:43

I'm sorry to those who don't understand. My solicitor understood. As did the women from CAB and my counsellor and a few close friends. I have reasons, they are good ones.

Actually it's advice like condoms I need. I do make him use those as that does help.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 11:32:09

That particular poster, who I suspect is the same one here, will not leave, absolutely will not part from her husband, as she wants them to continue having 2 parent together and a "happy" childhood. If I remember correctly, there were about 300 posts suggesting leaving and ways to leave etc, and she did not budge. She wont do it, no matter the consequences to her.

op., as you can seem the situation has now got worse for you, and will only get even worse. It will start to affect your mental health greatly. If at some point in the future you do leave, your mental health may be so affected that the growing up years of your childrens lives may be effectively ruined. And I am sure, very sure, that this is the opposite of what you want to happen. In fact, worse case scenario, your husband may well end up looking after them almost exclusively.

Do you want either of those things to happen?

She will destroy her own relationship with her own children because as adults they will not want to know her. They will instead despise her for being weak and staying with their brute of a father.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:34:44

I can absolutely assure you I am not that poster.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:36:15

Just tell us what's stopping you, otherwise this thread is a "How do I help my husband rape me?" thread, and that's not for Mumsnet.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 11:36:35

Do the people who agree with you not leaving know that he punishes your children for you not having sex with him?

Toast I don't see why you can't say the issue as to why you can't leave... You don't have to be so specific that you would 'out' yourself. You'd be surprised ... there is a wide breadth of posters' experiences on here, and people would be able to advise on an exit plan taking into account your circumstances.

What I'm saying is that someone somewhere must have been in a similarish situation and managed to get out.

I really don't think the EA will lessen if you let him have sex with you once a fortnight. He will find another focus to justify his anger and bad treatment of you and the dcs.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:37:11

Well, OP, we can either believe you or not. If even CAB and your therapist agree that you have to be raped, then who are we to question that?

But is that what they are saying? Do they know about the abuse?

What would happen if you left? What would the consequences be?

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 11:37:17

Solicitor = job to maximise your financial and legal rights.
Women at CAB = volunteers, often give terrible advice.
Counsellor = I doubt she's endorsed this, the trick of counselling is to help you come to conclusions yourself.
Friends = Can be our own worst enemies as they do not want to challenge our own failings. Your friends are hardly going to point out the damage you're doing your children are they?

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 15-Sep-13 11:42:05

If he walked out on you tomorrow, would that solve the problem that is keeping you there?

forumdonkey Sun 15-Sep-13 11:43:06

You may have many people who understand why you won't leave but that doesn't mean they agree with your decision. I can understand why women can be scared to leave, feel they are financially unable to leave but that doesn't mean staying any longer is the right decision. Even if it was through sever ill heath putting yourself and your DC's through this is damaging and hellish for you all. Put your DC's needs before your own - being in this EA environment is as awful for them (more so) as it is for you and they should not be subjected to EA of being ignored and patronised.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:45:22

Yes that would totally solve the problem.

I'm sorry I won't give my very specific reason. Of course my friends don't want this to happen but they are at a loss for other ways to solve this.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:46:20

You need new friends.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 11:46:46

I am putting their needs first not mine. And certainly not some ideal of a perfect family.

Why are you talking to CAB and not Women's Aid? CAB can't actually do anything to help you. Women's Aid can put you in a refuge if you want.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:48:53

You really, really aren't, OP.

Unless your children need to live with a rapist who puts them down and patronizes them. Which they don't.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 11:51:19

OP, you are living in a dream world if you think that staying in a relationship will create or maintain a happy homelife for your DC. Children know when things are wrong, very wrong. Without words, without fully understanding, they know, they sense, they feel it. And children, even teens, blame themselves.

Every day they spend in a home with a man who emotionally abuses his wife, who belittles them and treats them badly (EA towards them, btw), and with a mother who is treated that way, who seems to have mounting tension and fear and upset every few weeks over something they don't understand but get very worried and upset about nevertheless, is a day that further guarantess they will be damaged, forever. That they will be future abusers or victims. He is abusing you, but both of you are teaching your children that normal = man abusing his woman, woman taking the abuse.

No matter how lovely you are, how nice you make things for them, no matter how much you subsume your own pain and needs and out on a brave face, no matter how much you lie and make excuses and minimise to them, to make everything seem as nice and normal as possible, it is not working. They are being damaged and abused just by the mere act of having to live with a man like this, even if they don't know about the sexual abuse of you. And it is rape and sexual abuse, even if you give in.

If I was an adult or teen and found out that my mother was doing or had done this, i would not thank her for prostituting herself, for allowing herself to be raped and degraded, all to keep me in a home with a man who was a bastard towards me too. Apart from my hurt for her, it sould mkae me almost suicidally, unbearably guilty that she had undergone that for me. Martyrdom, allowing your self and body to be defiled, is not doing them or you any favours.

I am struggling to conceive of any situation, however extreme, where you wouldn't be able to leave a man like this. Any man, in fact. If the reason is because you fear he would be dangerous or something, then that is paradoxically even more reason to go.

You are doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. And I second what another poster upthread said about your counsellor. She would be horrified that you believe that skills you learnt with her are helping you do so. And if she condones this, you need to stop seeing her, because that is messed-up and unprofessional beynd belief.

Please leave,please please. Your thread terrifies me.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 11:52:13

Ic it would totally solve the problem if he would leave, start gathering evidence against him, contact the police (and WA) and force him out. he is breaking the law. you can have him excluded from your home.

use the law.

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 11:52:29

Is it a school fees issue? I agree with other posters, it's very unlikely you're going to out yourself (and you say friends know of your situation anyway?) and without more details posters offering advice aren't going to be able to get past the idea that you're chosing to stay.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 11:52:46

What Oxford said.

PenelopePitstops Sun 15-Sep-13 11:53:49

You are not putting them first. Leaving would be putting them first.

Their futures will be better without him.

I struggle to understand Any reason for putting your children through this

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 11:54:09

And what is it that will be different in two years time confused

forumdonkey Sun 15-Sep-13 11:54:25

I wondered that ALittleStranger and if it is it is the worst reason to stay.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 11:54:57

I want to re-iterate that you are NOT putting your DC's needs first. Putting aside the rape issue, just by staying with a man who is EA towards you and them, you are failing them. I am not saying that the responsibility for abuse lies with the victim, not at all, but by staying, you choose for them to be abused, not just by him mocking them, etc., but by the indirect abuse always suffered by the children of abused women. ALWAYS SUFFERED.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 11:55:22

Can you explain in what way you staying is best for your children?

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 11:55:38

Well, I don't know what to say, then.

I can't imagine how you are trapped, and you won't tell us.

I guess the only thing is for you to disassociate. Grow a thick skin, go cold blooded. If condoms, lube, and ritual Dettol baths help, then do that. And try to convince yourself that it's just your body. No big deal. I'm not being sarcastic, either. It's what prostitutes do. Some of them manage ok. But no feeling sorry for yourself and making a big sentimental deal about it. Taking control of the situation, rather than lying there passively may help, but will require cynicism and a bit of acting.

It's not something that you can really come back from.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 11:56:39

I would rather have no qualifications to my name, ever, than have my mother be raped to keep me in school, if it is to do with schooling. Being a martyr is actually putting yourself first, as it is thinking about yourself in the guise of selflessness.

As I have stated there is no realistic chance of you being so called outed. Your fear is understandable, but wrong.

There are others in EA relationships and the dynamics are similar; no problem is insurmountable.

You are not putting your childrens needs first either let alone your own. You are allowing yourself to be sacrificed for no good reason ultimately.

What did you yourself learn about relationships when growing up?.

What lessons do you think you are also teaching your children about relationships now?.

Oh Lord, enough with the lube and condoms. Really

Tawdry the OP has made it clear (that for reasons she's refusing to share) that she only wants practical advice on how to cope with having sex. So, yes, really. FWIW I think she's making a terrible mistake by staying but she's been told this enough so I wanted to add something that may help, even just a little. I hardly think another person telling her to LTB is going to sway her, do you, especially as she's working through the issue with a councellor? It's a bit like a drug addict being given clean needles; it goes without saying that they shouldn't be taking the drugs in the fist place, but if we can help them until they decide to stop then that's what we do, right?

OP, the only scenario I can possibly imagine is that you're worried that he would get custody of the children if you split up?

So maybe the situation is one or more of the following?
He is a SAHD
You have a severe disability
You are a drug user or former drug user etc.
You or he is involved in criminal activity
He knows something about you that you fear he would use if you split up.
Etc.

Any of these scenarios can be worked through and people could advise. And you wouldn't be outed if one or more of these are the case. Please, please give some idea of the background, so people can help you.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 12:02:37

I don't think telling her to buy lube and condoms will help her.

Or any other abused woman who might be reading this board.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 12:05:23

Is he terminally ill, is that it? Is it some scenario that makes you fear that he will get custody? Still struggling to understand any scenario that could keep you there, you poor thing.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 12:05:35

Op you do what you have to do but not to let you stay for another two years, but to let yourself realise that you can leave. that whatever this is it can be sorted. the only reason to stay would be if the alternative was actually worse e.g. you were going to be deported to somewhere more dangerous.

In abuse cases sadly there is often no happy choice. no item on the menu that would be your choice. happy well adjusted family life is not a choice you have. it is not on the menu. you can only choose from the options you have. Stay or go. go now or plan more and go later. But two years is a long time to hold on.

Have you discussed the legal.options for having him removed from your house/life with your solicitor, WA or the police?

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 12:05:49

LividofLondon That's pretty much how I am thinking, too.

I would rather see the op leave, but if she's not even willing to tell us why she must stay, and why she must have sex with him, then I can't help her except with the stuff she's asking for.

I do think that we could explore the option of staying but refusing sex. That's still a possibility. Him being a grump to the kids isn't good enough.

It may be that if she stands her ground, he will leave.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sun 15-Sep-13 12:05:56

I agree with what Oxford said.

You know what happens to DCs who grow up in marriages like yours? Mental health, anxiety, depression, alcoholism & drug abuse, OCD, failure to form healthy relationships, agoraphobia. I grew up in an EA and PA environment and this describes what has happened to me and some of my siblings.

WhoNickedMyName Sun 15-Sep-13 12:07:16

There is no scenario that should keep the OP there, unless he has her under lock and key, and even then she's got access to the Internet so she can get help.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 12:08:11

If you have not at least discussed those options then you have not explored all your avenues..you should at least find out if there is an option.

forumdonkey Sun 15-Sep-13 12:12:28

I read many threads on MN and I can have an objective opinion on most but DV and EA I have experience. The EA imo was worse than the DV, some have had it worse than me but I am missing teeth due to the DV (just to give you a bench mark). None of it was directed at my DC's but they suffered, they walked on egg shells they witnessed the EA against me, they couldn't watch what they wanted on TV, avoided being in the same room as their father or was forced to spend time with him in his attempt to be the doting father and saw and heard their fathers remarks to me.

I know how hard it is but it can be done and if you were to ask either of my children now if they have any regrets they would tell you it was the best thing that happened. We have a lot less money and I work hard for the little we do have but we have something money can't buy - a happy and safe home.

MissAntithetic Sun 15-Sep-13 12:19:29

So sad.

Just don't. Please.

You might be able to practically get through it but the damage you will do to your mental well being will last a lot longer.

MushroomSoup Sun 15-Sep-13 12:42:04

Toast would you feel more able to be open in the 'other place'? Or would you rather not?

I think that the psychological implications of doing this outweigh any benefits unless its a life and death situation.

I know that's been said but I'm just adding my voice.

Wellwobbly Sun 15-Sep-13 13:20:39

Instead of telling Toast who she is, what she is, what she should and should't do,

how about we all LISTEN to her? She is managing this situation to the best of her ability. She has got a long term plan, and she is not being a helpless victim.

Way to go, Toast. This isn't going to be for the rest of your life! Implement that plan, squirrel cash, hopefully get a job and then onwards and upwards.

How is he EA, and what happened to make the scales fall off your eyes? How do you cope day to day? Tell us your story.

TheRobberBride Sun 15-Sep-13 13:22:38

OP. Pleaae listen. You must leave. You cannot truly believe that being raped by this man regularly will help to create a secure and loving home for your DCs. Surely? Because it won't.

I left my EA partner in June. It took me a year to make up my mind to leave and then a further year to plan my exit strategy. My ex told me he would take my childen if I left him. He said he would prove I was a bad mother. He said I would never survive without him. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

My DCs are so much happier. I thought I had managed to shield them from what was going on but I was kidding myself. My oldest no longer has temper tantrums. My youngest sleeps through the night.. I am slowly rebuilding my self esteem.

I thought I 'couldn't' leave. But I did and things are so much better. Staying with him would have destroyed me-and done untold damage to my children.

ChangingWoman Sun 15-Sep-13 13:26:36

Without further information this request is impossible. It sounds as though you've been pushed so far over the edge that you can no longer think straight.

Most of us cannot believe that this is the best or only option. It would be morally wrong for us to advise you on a course of action which will do so much damage.

LisaMedicus Sun 15-Sep-13 13:29:32

Can those who haven't walked the walk not talk the talk re having to do sex. Sometimes you just have to do stuff short term. You do what gets you through.

btw I respect the OP's wishes to remain confidential. They can choose later to post differently if they wish but bullying them to 'tell all' will not make them feel that it's safe to post here.

willbelieveanything Sun 15-Sep-13 13:30:38

This doesn't make sense.
OP has no option but to have sex with H. Otherwise the tension this fearsome creature creates will hit the roof.
But this alpha male H who causes hell on earth if he doesn't get a shag will make do with it once a fortnight because he has a mediocre sex drive. He's even willing to use a condom by request. An accommodating rapist?
The OP gives him the freedom to have sex with any woman he wants, but he only wants sex with a woman whose skin crawls at his merest touch. So he's a nutcase then.
OP is willing to remain constantly unhappy living with him, and allow him sexual release once a fortnight for several years to come.
Friends, advisers, including a professional counsellor all agree it's the best and only thing she can do, considering the circumstances, which must be kept top secret. She is not under lock and chain.

I wonder what conversations are like at mealtimes in this household?

But Lisa 2 years is not short term

I don't think anyone is bullying, I think people are desperate to help the OP figure out how to get out of this now. There are more options out there.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 13:47:15

op. You have forgotten your mental health in all of this.
You will need good mental health for when you do leave.

That is why I personally, am not saying about how best you can manage this situation. Because the more you manage it, and are helped to manage it, the worse it all gets for you and for your children.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 13:48:47

OP - i think alcohol is probably the only way. Yes you mentioned the hangover but once every two weeks isnt that bad is it. Plus bear in mind that some drinks are worse than others for hangovers - red wine, dark spirits = bad, real ale, german lagers = good.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 13:49:54

willbelive "OP has no option".

Not true. Absolutely, not true. Everyone always has choices unless they are severely disabled.
They may not be very palatable, they may be choices that are not much better, or seem better, or necessarily better, but there are always choices. Oftenm several of them.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 13:54:24

You are not putting the childrens' needs first. You may think you are. But they will not thank you for it afterwards. Why would they? If you have brought them up well, and I suspect you havem take a look at them now. Are they really going to go yippee! My mum put herself through that, and did that for us, yippee! Really? hmm

Platinumstart Sun 15-Sep-13 14:00:26

This is absurd. There is simply no reason on earth why given a choice you would allow your children to suffer the emotional abuse that they are currently subjected too.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 14:05:09

My children will never have to know. Why should they? It's temporary and will be far outweighed by the positives later on.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to give specifics. I understand it would be easier to give me advice on how to leave but believe me it is impossible right now. Or at least it would destroy my children's lives irrevocably.

And to the poster who asked about chat at mealtimes, if the children are there then it's the usual family chat. If it's just us it's silence.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 14:17:46

What state will you be in later on?
They need and will need for decades, a fully functioning mum. Please dont deny them that.

Children are more reslilient than you are giving them credit for.

Adults on the other hand, find it hard, sometimes very hard to bounce back from things.

[despite your denial, you sound exactly like a previous poster. If you are not her, then there is someone else in the country doing the exact same thing as you].

clam Sun 15-Sep-13 14:20:55

I'm wondering if your h is in the public eye.

Dehumanising yourself further is not going to help either you or your children. Using alcohol as well in your case will likely give you a drink problem.

They see and hear far more than you perhaps care or want to realise.
Denial is a powerful force.

A happy childhood is not for them. It will be a miserable existence because their parents are engaged in their own private war with each other.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 14:25:52

I cannot think of any situation where parents splitting up would destroy their lives irrevocably. When one parent is being abused, THAT is the scenario that destroys their lives. The mental and emotional scars of being part of a family dynamic with abuse present, even if they don't know consciously about the sexual abuse aspect, will damage them - and Is damaging them, right now - far more than you splitting up could ever do so. Families split up all the time; it's sad, but it happens. I think you are so far into the mire, the fog of abuse that what are no doubt big hurdles to leaving seem impossible ones.

If you are billionaires and you would have to start again in poverty, that would not destroy their lives. If you would have to go live with a remote Amazonia tribe, that would not destroy their lives. Leaving their home, friends and school would not destroy their lives. There is absolutely not one single scenario where leaving would be impossible. Slaves escaped plantations. Inmates escaped from concentration camps. In the past, when women legally belonged to their husbands, they escaped them. However extreme you believe your situation to be, you are, at some level choosing to stay. Maybe it's because you grew up in abusive home and on some unconscious level, this feels normal, who knows.

Their lives are being destroyed right this second, and has been being destroyed, by living in a family with this abuse dynamic.

Their mother choosing to allow herself to be raped, and asking strangers for tips on how to survive it,because alcohol and dettol baths don't help enough anymore will destroy their lives more than just about anything imaginable. They might not know about the sex, or your coping mechanisms, but the atmosphere, your behaviour and mood, your Oh's behaviour and mood, the whole family dynamic will be insanely toxic and oppressive and scary and creepy and sad and so much more. You are deluding yourself if you believe any different and failing your children by doing so.

I would want to die if I knew my mother had done for me what you are doing. I would not feel I deserved to live. You are actually putting a digustingly huge burden on them, without them knowing it. Nothing you are doing protects them, you are actively exposing them to harm.

fridayfridayfriday Sun 15-Sep-13 14:26:00

some people just love drama.

LEAVE.

TSSDNCOP Sun 15-Sep-13 14:27:56

OK OP, you know this whole situation is crazy, but you've clearly made your mind up and whilst I wish one of these ladies could get you to change your mind I think they probably won't.

Some of the coping suggestions so far seem to be acceptable. Treating the sex as a transaction. Can you bring some unemotive calculation into your plan. 2 years is 52 weeks, once a fortnight means 52 times. Each time is one less and one closer to your own goal of leaving.

I'm sorry to the posters who rightly think OP should leave straight away. I believe you are right. Maybe one of you will get through, meantime OP needs help.

BumgrapesofWrath Sun 15-Sep-13 14:30:53

Something I hope you pay attention to here.

My dad was not nice to my mum and us at points.

As an adult it is my mum I struggle to forgive, as I think it should have been her priority to shelter her and us, whereas I think he has some deep-rooted psychological issues.

So maybe bear that in mind when basing this decision on your children's happiness. They may be far happier without him.

TheRobberBride Sun 15-Sep-13 14:33:36

Your children may not know the specifics but they will be aware that something isn't right.

I was confident that I had managed to shield my children from what was going on. I was utterly deluded. They obviously didn't understand the details but looking back they knew, deeply and instinctively, that something was wrong.

I'll give you an example. My youngest had sleep issues. She had never slept through and woke multiple times a night every night. I tried every sleep strategy out there. We attended sleep clinics. Nothing worked. 2 weeks after we left she slept through for the first time. Now she does so almost every night. It could be a coincidence of course but i think it's more likely that she, on some deep and instinctive level, felt unsafe in our old house.

I'm sorry but I can't just 'believe you', I can't see how it is impossible to leave for 2 years. A few months maybe, but 2 years?

Unless your children would be physically endangered by your leaving, they will not be worse off. And I'm struggling to think of how that could be.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 14:44:20

Op you have not said if you have explored the avenue of having him removed from your house. if him leaving would solve the problem would him being made to leave not do the same?

At first reading, this made me very sad. Now I think it might be the most ridiculous thread I have ever read here.

You seriously expect people to give you advice on how to cope with this mild-mannered rapist who you have to stay living with?

Is this man is a high profile politician and you are waiting 2 years until after the next election.

Unless he has a gun to your head, of course you can leave you silly woman. Get some self respect, stop playing the bloody martyr and do what's right by your children.

DropYourSword Sun 15-Sep-13 14:52:28

It's counter productive to keep badgering the OP to LTB. She's made it perfectly clear she will in her own time and is asking for coping strategies in the meantime. Stop asking her for details she clearly doesn't want to give. It's not helping her. And stop judging people who are providing her with the sort of coping strategies she is desperately looking for. It sound like she's in an awful situation that none of us can understand, but she also sounds like an intelligent person who is reaching out for help.

Actually I think she sounds like someone with post-traumatic stress syndrome who is not thinking clearly at all. And I agree with whoever said it would be morally wrong to counsel her on how to cope with rape instead of helping her figure out how to escape. Giving coping tips is just firming up the delusion that she can't get out.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 14:58:35

DropYourSword, we ARE trying to give her help. It is the only help she needs and should take. What would you have us do, help a woman fond ways to tolerate being raped and in doing so, keep her children in a situation that will emotionally scar them for life?!

The help one needs is very rarely the help one wants, or asks for.

The only answer to this problem is to leave. That she won't do or is telling herself that she can't, doesn't change that. I, for one, am not prepared to help the way she wants - that is colluding in rape and abuse.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 14:59:26

Find, not fond, sorry.

MatildaWhispers Sun 15-Sep-13 15:00:39

OK, although your situation is clearly crazy to any external onlooker, I do appreciate that you probably don't think it is.

I have done something similar, and when I did it I had two different strategies. In a sober state, I managed to disengage from the act totally, told myself I was being strong and that I could just 'get through it' somehow. That it was just my body and not 'me' that was affected. My other strategy was alcohol.

However, I can't stress enough how much I wish I hadn't put myself through that. I thought it would
not really affect me, but it had a massive impact. You will teach yourself how to dissociate, and although it starts off as just a way to get through sex you donot want, ultimately it does really affect your mental health. You may find that you end up dissociating more and more to cope with life, especially if your husband is abusive in other ways.

You can leave, you really can, even if you don't think you can.

If you teach yourself to cope like this you will look back at some point in the future and wonder what the fuck you were doing.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 15:03:57

It is something to do with, when one of the children is 8. Cant quite remember why.

Drop. Coping strategies. On what planet is a coping strategy to get drunk, or use condoms or whatever. What do you think this poor woman is actually feeling.
Feelings matter a great deal.
People have breakdowns, get depression, may start hearing voices, or goodness knows what else, because they are not properly dealing with thier feelings.

And yet some posters are supporting this.

The bit I do agree with is is that there is no point in asking her why she is acting how she is.

Notmoreschoolholidays Sun 15-Sep-13 15:09:32

How old are your DC op?

My parents had a horrible abusive co-dependant relationship. They split when I was 9 and DM married again to someone even more abusive than df.

I have no respect for my DM, I don't like her very much and I only recently stopped feeling overwhelming hate, anger and grief as she didn't put our, or her, emotional safety and well-being first.

You may think you can shield your DC from the true nature of their df, but you are kidding yourself. If he really dislikes you the way you say he does, then he will find another outlet for it if you start having regular sex with him.

If you go ahead with your plan to stay put for a couple of years it is highly likely that you will be so emotionally spent with your abusive relationship that there will be little left for your DC. I have very few memories of my DM being 'present' and emotionally available to me. That hurts me more than any beating, verbal assault, or sexual interference from anyone else.

Teach your DC how to respect oneself and stop putting up with this.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 15:13:28

I actually think that the op will not be able to cope. I don't think she can go cold blooded and just deal with it, however much she might try.

I also think that if she did do it, her husband would just up the ante. Maybe by demanding unpleasant acts, or greater frequency. Because if what he wants is to hurt her, then he will keep pushing until he finds a nerve.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 15:18:36

You said you are staying for the children. How is that manifesting itself when their "father" IS HORRIBLE to them and is treating their mother as if they are worthless.

OP ... leaving aside the question of why you can't leave - would you consider printing this thread out and showing it to your counsellor? She knows your circumstances and we don't, but she needs to know what your countenancing.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 15:19:51

I am NOT the poster you are presuming I am. It has nothing to do with one of my DC being 8.

I'm sorry I'm not instantly LTB as would seem the obvious thing to many. I could leave but it would cause a huge amount of damage and at the moment I perceive this course of action to be the best open to me.

I'm working, I'm saving, I'm planning. I'm not sitting here unsure what to do, I'm doing the best I can with the situation I have. And it's messed up and complicated, the few people I have told in RL take a while to get their heads round it but then agree that I have to stay for now.

Thank you to those of you who have PMed me with suggestions and to the help I've had on here from everyone, even those who can't understand what the hell I'm doing. I still appreciate it all.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 15:24:12

Staying is causing much more damage than leaving would.

Please don't prostitute yourself anymore with this abuser.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 15:30:15

The only thing I can think of is that there's going to be some new law passed, here or abroad that will help/save/protect you all and you're waiting for that.

You should still LTB. The more you deny your own needs and humanity, the more you will break down when you finally leave, and you won't be there for your children.

I don't believe you will leave him, however. Ever. I think that the next two years of debasing yourself and dissociating will make you incapable of it. I think you might believe you are going to lesve in 2 years, but I believe it is just an elaborate coping mechanism you are using. You get relief and a sense of control amidst the abuse, to tell yourself that there is a time limit to it all. But if you really were going to leave, you would have done, or you would be doing, now. There simply is no reason that makes it impossible or destructive. And if people you are telling agree with you about the 2 yr thing, then I bet you are not telling them the whole picture. I bet they don't know about the dettol baths.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 15:31:17

If it is money related it is not worth it.
If it is power related, it is not worth it.
If it is religious related, you can seperate which you all ready know.

In fact, I cannot think of a single reason why it would be better to stay.

Quite apart form the sex, you say that he is EA[presumably to you], and makes your skin crawl.

He is damaging you now. And you know that.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 15:33:05

Sorry. Even if you choose to stay, I cant bring myself to offer suggestions about the best way to do it. I would then be in a position of not feeling right myself.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 15:33:38

Glad to hear you are working and saving and planning toast. I hope you can leave some day. hopefully you will find a way to make it a little sooner.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 15:44:37

Can we at least revisit the idea of staying, but not having sex? I really think if you are taking Dettol baths, then you will not be able to emotionally cope.

So, you say that he becomes a jerk if you don't give in. I wonder if you wouldn't be better trying to manage that issue.

ALittleStranger Sun 15-Sep-13 16:08:57

If he's a politician (and this is the only scenario I can think of that makes sense with the two year limit) then I think you overestimate how much interest there would be in a common or garden divorce. You can leave and do all of this without airing any dirty laundry.

I suspect people agree you "have to stay for now" are doing so because they are hearing your skewed interpretation, or they do not have the energy to argue with you.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 16:14:59

He's not a politician. That is not the scenario at all.

I get that people here can't understand it. But people I know do. Because they know the reason and know they would do the same.

Obviously if life becomes intolerable for my DC I will cut my losses and go. My head isn't in the sand over this. I'm constantly keeping on top of the situation and monitoring it.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 16:18:32

I cannot believe that any posters here would actually offer practical solutions to help this man RAPE his wife. WTAF!

Wellwobbly Sun 15-Sep-13 16:22:16

Here is my guess:

he has equity in s'thing and in 2 years time there will be an IPO. If she D's him now she missed out on the shares.

OK, Strawberry, why don't you just fantasise when it is happening? Pretend it is not him, but someone who really is loving and kind and gentle. If the payoff/wait is important, once every 2 weeks is worth it.

What got the scales off your eyes?

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 16:24:11

shock

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 16:26:23

WTF WellWobbly

I thought you were talking to me then angryshock.

Please use the OP abbreviation or name.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 16:29:31

Sex without full, non coerced consent is RAPE. Think when posting what you would say if this was Your daughter FFS.

DrDance Sun 15-Sep-13 16:43:33

Will you gain financially if you stick it out for 2 years?

Then again you say you've asked him to leave and he won't so if he left today everything would be ok but if you left it wouldn't?

If it's some sort of weird pre nup thing I'd speak to your solicitor, it may not be enforceable.

Otherwise I'm confused it's not making sense why you feel you have to stay

Hope you find a solution x

So you can cut your losses and go

I don't know why you would do so if it becomes intolerable for your DC but not for yourself.

Actually, I suspect it's because your self-esteem has been so destroyed by years of emotional abuse that you don't think you deserve it. Or because you were raised with very unhealthy family dynamics. Either way, I hope at some point you realise that you do not have to make this sacrifice. I cannot believe the people telling you to stay know everything.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 16:49:35

I've no doubt I will gain financially if I wait but that isn't my reason for staying. Money isn't what is at stake.

I've tried the fantasising but it's just wrong. I'd rather just switch off from it. I guess the scales fell off when I started going to counselling when I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I was a useless wife and mother apparently and I went there as a last resort and in the hope the counsellor might be able to tell me how I could get better at those roles. It took a bit of chipping away for her to make me realise actually I was conditioned to think that but it wasn't the case at all.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 16:53:25

Dreaming - yes the people advising me do know everything. They also know as I do, that my self esteem is low and my family dynamics are pretty poor. Nonetheless I still think my plan is right for us. There's a chance I could be wrong I will admit that, but it's a chance I have to take.

bigbuttons Sun 15-Sep-13 16:53:46

This is such a disturbing thread.
Op , believe me, you cannot be the mother you so want to be whilst you are with this man and letting him rape you. Your feelings of self loathing will grow like a canker and they WILL affect our dc.
There is NO way you can simply have a coping strategy.
From what I gather and I might be wrong, you CAN leave, there is no reason, not a real one, why you can't go.
I really can't understand why you think it is better for your children to be in a household where their mother is being raped on a regular basis.
I am so saddened by this.
Btw I 'got out' last year. left a very 'comfy' situation and 'broke up the family'. I should have done it years ago.

HairyGrotter Sun 15-Sep-13 16:54:33

I'm finding this whole thread frustrating. My empathy, and sympathies extend further than most, but OP, your 'martyr' routine will and is systematically destroying your children.

Out of all of this, I feel for those children. You are blind to the effect your 'martyrdom' is doing to them. Good luck living in your dogma

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 15-Sep-13 16:55:34

So are you telling us that he always treats you politely in front of the kids, and always is loving and engaging towards the kids... as long as he has sex on you once a fortnight?

Is this about a prenup? If he leaved you you'll still get some money but if you leave him within a certain time frame you get nothing?

MatildaWhispers Sun 15-Sep-13 17:01:39

I am assuming your h would be thinking that you were up for sex. Have you really thought this through?

Might he not start pushing for you to do things you don't want to, because you are trying to just go along with it and you don't want to upset him? So if he does that, would you just go along with that too?

You seem to be thinking you will be totally in control, but you won't be. It will start in a bad place and get worse. Are you absolutely positive you have told rl people and your counsellor exactly how you feel about this?

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:03:37

Boulevard - he's not perfect at those times, can still be a bit grumpy but the whole household is calm and happy because the tension isn't there. And then the little remarks at me start and the put downs. The comments about my weight and how I look. The finding something urgent to do so he can't help with bedtime. The failing to engage with the children or want to do things with them. It's subtle. He's not beating the crap out of me, just increasing my workload and stress up and up.

Dam58 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:04:19

It's very difficult to give advice when we have no idea what you need to hold on to for the next 2 years.
I don't think you're a prostitute nor do i think you're being raped. I do find on mn there does tend to be lots of emotive language used.

I am not minimising your experience or anyone elses opinion....however i don't think you have any right to ask for advice on a situation you are not prepared to divulge information about to those you are asking.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:06:07

Matilda - no he doesn't care if I'm not "up for it". He knows I get no pleasure from it.

Ok that explains a bit more. But I agree with whoever said that your friends and others are not really agreeing that you should stay, they just see that you are stuck and are not trying to force you to see things differently (unlike us internet strangers).

If your counsellor has gotten you from thinking you're at fault to knowing you have to leave, that's already a big step. I hope she can help you see that you can leave sooner. Two years is just too long. I'm not sure you realise how dangerous it is to stay in that state for so long. In a way it is more dangerous than when you didn't realise how bad things were.

I really think it would be better for you to try to cope with the fallout from not having sex at all. Find ways for all of you to be out of the house a lot so that his moods don't affect the kids so much. I'm sure there must be a way to pretend you have some medical condition that means you can't have sex. Basically, stalling tactics and keeping the kids at arm's length. It won't work for two years but it doesn't sound like you really need to wait that long.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:07:59

Dam58 - I totally understand that you and many others find it too difficult to give advice without the whole picture. What's most frustrating is I know if I said it that a lot of you would think the same way. But I am fairly sure people I know in RL post on here, I cannot risk them identifying me and knowing I plan to leave.

ihatethecold Sun 15-Sep-13 17:09:44

This thread is quite ridiculous.
how can you let this situation go on another day?

you must have some unbelievable reason for staying to do this damage to yourself.

MatildaWhispers Sun 15-Sep-13 17:10:33

Ok, but might he still end up pushing for you to do more sexually? Think about how you could handle that.

And would you cope if you fell pregnant?

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 17:12:01

What would honestly happen if you just refused to have sex?

Dam58 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:12:44

I made my point-now i want to help.

Is there anything you could do that would turn him off?

Instead of trying to meet his needs to keep him contained... Is there anything you could do to make him not want to?

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 17:13:40

I mean that in the genuine sense of what would you have to deal with by refusing?

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 17:17:55

Op, listen to me. If you were feeling that way, and believing those things about yourself, before you went into counselling, and your counsellor has had to work hard to disavow you of them, then you must have been, and still are, in an extremely abusive relationship for a long time. Only the victims of sustained and systematic abuse feel and believe like that. Only the victims of sustained and systematic abuse could even concepualise of allowing themselves to be raped for another two years as some sort of coping mechanism that benefited their children.

You say that if you do not submit to him, he is horrid to the children. The way to solve that is NOT to submit, it is to leave him.

There is a weird characteristic about abuse victims that people don't like to mention becaue it sounds blamey, when none of the blame belongs to them. But here it is, and it really does apply to you: abuse is so psychologically traumatic, makes you think about yourself and examine yourself so very much, all the time, that even though your actions and decision may outwardly seem selfless, the abuse make you become self-centred... In a non-selfish way. YOU need to minimise, to deny things to yourself, you need to deludeyourself, you need to give yourself time, you need to tell yourself that the kids are fine and ignore every sign to the contrary, every bit of commonsense that tells you that they are being messed up - you need to do all of this to cope. But what you also do is demand that your children do the same, as well as coping with the EA they get from him, and being a used by the family environment and worrying about their mother. Not even the greatest actress on earth could hide how abuse affects her, all the time. Just because they chat normally doesn't mean they are unharmed. You chat normally, and you are allowing yourself to be raped. They can appear okay because you are teaching them the terrible lesson of pretending that appalling things don't matter. Training to accept abuse themselves, when older, is another way of putting it.

Your family dynamic is poor, you admit that. It is abuse for children to stay in that. Their future selves cannot give you two years for whatever bullshit reason you are lying to yourself about being too impossible to leave. Staying guarantees extra layers of damage upon what already undoubtedly exists within them.

Abuse is awful. One of the worse aspects is that because abuse of a mother abuses their children as a result, when women stay with abusers, it makes them collusive, against their will, against everything they really do want, in that abuse to the DC.

You risk them begruding you, even hating you, when they are grown, for staying with this man. Any inkling of prostituting yourself to their father for 'their sake' will probably put them in therapy for the best part of a decade, at least.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but you really need to see the truth here.

OP it's really two separate issues

One, you say you cannot leave right now. I think a lot of us understand that it can take a long time to leave and nobody would want to rush you or have you end up in a bad situation when waiting would help.

But two, you are willing to force yourself to have sex with him while you are waiting. That is the part people cannot understand. I think if you asked for help coping with his moods while not having sex with him, people would give you a lot of help and suggestions. But helping to make it okay that he rapes you is just deeply problematic.

You think we would agree with you if we knew the full story. We might agree that you can't leave but honestly I am really struggling to think of any scenario that would make me think, oh right, yes she should keep having sex with him. I just can't. And I've seen it all really.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:18:11

Toast. I am glad that you know that there is a chance that you could be wrong.
You are. btw, I am very far from being a ltb poster. If you look me up, you will see that.

But this man is systematically destroying your mental health, as I suspected. You came close to a mental breakdown, as I suspected. You have low self esteem as others on here also suspected.

You can seperate if there is at all a religious element to all of this. That is ok by the bible.

Please think about the children. They so need a well mum, especially with the dad they have.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:18:51

By refusing? I guess I don't know. It's as bad as it's ever been, the situation is electric.

To turn him off - if I lost lots of weight that would happen. Stopped wearing make up, had my hair cut off, wore ugly clothes. I could do that but it's taken me years to build up my esteem so I want to look nice for me. To take that away will destroy that.

Pregnancy can't happen. As to what else he might ask for, tbh it's months since I even kissed him that alone is enough of a hurdle.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:19:59

One thing that MN posters are good at on the relationship board is about strategies for leaving.
They are supportive and full of knowledge and advice.

<hugs> op.

Wellwobbly Sun 15-Sep-13 17:20:48

Sorry Strawberry!!!!!! A shadow of doubt DID cross my mind... I meant Toast of course.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:22:34

Forgive me if I'm being slow on the uptake here. But it would be ok to say no to him? To say I'm sorry but you don't respect me or seem to like me or care for me. So no I'm not doing that with you.

That's ok?

I don't need to?

Am I being a complete idiot thinking that I have to to hold it together? That it's all my fault when it isn't really?

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 17:23:42

Of course it is.

Just post in oftbt If you're worried about people in rl recognising you

People really can't be expected to give constructive advice without the whole picture

Dam58 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:24:58

Interesting....you're not prepared to wear ugly clothes and lose weight to put him off as it will effect your self esteem?

But you do want strategies to have sex with someone who makes your "skin crawl"....

Your priorities are a little messed up.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 17:26:05

OTBT is NOT invisible. You just can't google it.

Honestly say no and sleep somewhere away from him

You can do that it's your right

Yeah but not as many go there

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:28:27

It's not that hidden on otbt. I think I could still get found there.

Yes my priorities are wrong. I don't doubt that. But 4 years of on/off therapy has taught me that actually it's ok for me to look nice. That I don't have to be invisible. I'm not letting him take that from me as well.

Wellwobbly Sun 15-Sep-13 17:29:05

Oxford what a brilliant post - you are absolutely right, being abused DOES make you as narcissistic as the abuser. Fantastic point.

OP, it is like the frog in hot water, isn't it? You become used to it, and the temperature goes up, and you get used to that.

Hang in there, love, you will get there. Did his cruelty just leave you with loathing? I always did love Mr W and love a bit of it so am slightly puzzled as to the complete repulsion.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 17:30:47

So OP can be persuaded to satisfy everyone's curiosity by telling what she doesn't want to post perchance?

MatildaWhispers Sun 15-Sep-13 17:31:50

Have you not already been saying no though? I am confused as I thought you said the tension in the house is because you aren't having sex with him? confused

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:32:10

Yes the love just died. I woke up one day and it was like living with a stranger. I tried so hard to get it back again but I couldn't. For a long time I saw it as my fault, that I was wrong. But I think I just finally decided I was worth something and that opened my eyes to realise my DC deserved more and that was a huge waKe up call.

Charlottehere Sun 15-Sep-13 17:32:37

Your children aren't having a happy homelife, this situation will be affecting them deeply. Children feel things...your not fooling anyone. sad

Buzzardbird Sun 15-Sep-13 17:33:22

Have you tried standing up for yourself? Refuse sex point blank and do not allow him to get away with insulting you? Stand your ground and let him know you have had enough. You don't say he is violent so why not?

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 17:33:48

I'm curious, but I don't think the OP should divulge anything she doesn't want to.

OP, why can't you refuse sex? Why can't we all just discuss ways to cope with his arseyness?

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:34:01

I agree with you about looking nice. If that helps your self esteem, you go girl!

OFBT is not invisible. But it does not appear on active, so if someone wanted to find you, it just makes things that little bit more difficult.

No, don't let him take that away from you.

Of course you can say no. Has your counsellor not worked on this with you? It's the most important thing really. You only have to have sex when YOU want to. It is not an obligation. Marital rape is a crime. If you want to move into another room and sleep there and never touch him again, that is your right. If he doesn't like it, he can leave but he cannot force you to do anything you don't want to do.

So let him sulk and pout and make remarks. Who cares what he thinks about anything? Let him be a miserable jerk. You're planning to get out.

You would be far better off practicing how to tune out his remarks and acts, rather than practicing how to cope with having sex you don't want.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 17:36:12

You don't have to consent to the emotional abuse, either. You can roll your eyes and walk away. You can stop reacting to the comments. Not easy, but better than Dettol baths.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:36:27

Can I ask, very gently, if you were abused or sexually abused as a child? Dont answer that if you dont want to.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:38:40

Yes I was. Both.

So I should be able to cope with this. But I can't because it triggers it all back again.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 17:39:19

What does he do to the kids in order to try and manipulate you.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 17:39:50

Do you think a wife hasn't got the right to refuse sex?

forumdonkey Sun 15-Sep-13 17:41:41

I find this so difficult having been there to read your posts.

I suspect others like me are at a loss at your decision. If its as bad as you describe, you already know you want to LTB, you have told people in RL and sought and got their support why you are not looking to leave this dire situation ASAP instead you are waiting for another 2 years?? BTW I don't believe for a second that leaving would 'destroy your children's lives irrevocably'.

Trust me when I say if you are being EA within a marriage 24/7 it is hell on earth so much so I took my seat belt off and nearly drove my car into a wall, so when I read that you have RL support and want to go but for some 'mystery' reason won't for even more years I'm finding it hard to sympathise and support your decision to put yourself and your DC's through this for another 2 years.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:41:53

He doesn't do anything. He just won't engage with them. But if I agree to it then he's like father of the year for a week or so afterwards. And that makes them so happy.

I think a wife should have the right to say no. But should she say no if everybody is happier if she says yes?

MarianneEnjolras Sun 15-Sep-13 17:46:09

Of course she should say no!

He is the one making everyone unhappy. I really can't think of anything at all that is worth putting your children through another two years of misery. You may think they don't notice, but they will.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 17:48:47

She absolutely should say no.

If he ignores them, so be it. Ultimately, he will behave towards them according to his love, or lack of, for them. It's his responsibility to be a loving father.

Op - perhaps look at it this way - Imagine you have a daughter, who you love, nurture and cherish all her life, and she grows up and somehow she finds herself in your situation.

She asks how to grit her teeth and bear having sex with someone who hates her and who knows she doesn't want it, and she gives the same reasons as your reasons are now.

Would you help her find ways to make it easier for her to do what she thinks she ought to do and let a man violate her?

Or would you try and help her find another way?

Yes, she should still say no. You are just as important as everyone else.

The right thing to do in this situation is not give in to sex, but to leave as soon as you can so that you are no longer forced to make that decision.

We all want to make our kids happy but you do not have to make such a huge sacrifice. There are lots of ways for kids to be happy.

Xenadog Sun 15-Sep-13 17:53:09

OP you have decided on your course of action and nothing said on here has changed your mind even though I believe you have received a great deal of sensible, sensitive and considered advice.

By all means stay with this abusive man but rest assured your children will realise something terrible is going on and this will damage them. Much, if not more, than you leaving.

So you need to know how to get on with it- if it was me I would draw up a contract with how often, what you will do and won't do and stipulate a condom, breath freshened etc, whatever you need.

You are basically whoring yourself out to this man and if that's something you accept then fine - make sure that the cost of this is worth it in the long run. Obviously it's not just you paying this price though is it? BTW I know this sounds judgemental and I don't really want to but I'd do think your judgement is skewed.

Havea0 Sun 15-Sep-13 17:53:17

Toast. Because of what you have been through, that is a reason why you cant cope with this.
You dont really know or understand how a normal loving relationship works. it is not your fault.

I am sitting here thinking of books that could help you with this. And I realise I dont actually know of any. Strange isnt it.

If you google "how a normal loving relationship works" that should start you off in the right direction.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 17:56:01

You didn't answer my question. Of course you don't have too but maybe if you answered it to yourself you would realise you are living a lie for no gain.

You said you are staying for the sake of your children as you want them to have a good life. Yet he does nothing with them and is horrible to them. When and where are they having a good childhood?

Everyone knows the name of the more private place. Posting the acronyms just helps those who don't know, and some who shouldn't, find it. Use some common sense.

Toastandstrawberryjam Sun 15-Sep-13 17:57:32

Havea0 - think you are spot on with that. It's what my counsellor spent a long time working on with me. Trying to show me what was the right way for a relationship to be. But it's like trying to learn a foreign language. I find it hard to understand.

You sound like my friend and my heart breaks for you like it does for her. She's been going to leave in a year for several years now. I'm watching her die slowly.

Please don't sleep with him. It won't make it better off fix things.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 17:59:08

I am so sad that people are so downtrodden they have to ask if it is okay to say no to their husband having sex on them when they don't want it and if mum's unhappiness is worth it if the kids are happy.

YOUR KIDS ARE NOT HAPPY and are going to feel pretty shit when they find out what you went through for them to stay in the status quo. That is the idyllic life you appear to think you are giving them.

Months ago a poster posted and it took 5-6 threads but with lots of help she got out and from what I last read she is out of an abusive situation and her children are with her.

He doesn't do anything. He just won't engage with them. But if I agree to it then he's like father of the year for a week or so afterwards. And that makes them so happy.

The way this man relates to his own children IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. I know you want to make him be the good father they deserve, but you can't actually do that. Because even if he is treating them well, he is abusing their mother, which is never going to be part of being a good father. I'm afraid this (him being a decent father to your children) is not in your control.

He is what he is.

You can choose to put yourself through this nightmare of unwanted sex, but if you do, that still doesn't give them a good father, so please don't kid yourself that this will benefit your children.

I am so sorry you have already been abused in your life. Please don't allow any more. It really won't help your children.

You need to break the cycle of abuse and stop believing that you should allow this for the greater good of the others in the house.

Because that belief that you hold is harming you.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 15-Sep-13 18:01:38

It's not right to do this to yourself. You can't understand what "right" is because you've been abused by so many people.

If you stand up to him and refuse to do what he wants, things will go better for you and your children.

I think you will find it a lot easier to understand how healthy relationships work once you get away from this man. As long as you stay he is just undermining everything you are learning and making you doubt yourself.

Hatpin Sun 15-Sep-13 18:05:09

The relationship between your H and your DC is not your responsibility.

Just tell him your sexual relationship is over, and move into the spare room.

Your children will not be any more damaged by knowing you don't sleep together anymore than they will be already.

onenutshortofasnickers Sun 15-Sep-13 18:07:28

why don't you give him permission to 'fulfill his needs' the abusive twathead that you should leave with someone else?

op that is wrong btw but its better than you being raped for 2 years.

you are wrong to think you can't leave now, so very wrong- you should have left yesterday but your not going to listen to any real advice and you cannot ever force yourself to have sex if you don't want to.

this is just all so wrong.

ChangingWoman Sun 15-Sep-13 18:10:17

Should a wife say no to sex which makes her skin crawl?

Discounting the "gun to head" scenario, absolutely. Every time. Without question. Women who haven't been traumatised by the kind of abuse you have been through probably wouldn't even consider it as an option.

It may have taken me years to get my alcoholic exH out of the house and fully divorced but I never once considered even kissing him after I began to find him repellant and accepted that divorce was inevitable. I did other stupid things to keep the peace while he was still living in my house (e.g. letting him share meals or borrow DVDs) but having sex wouldn't have occurred to me.

It takes time to understand abuse. It takes time to make an exit plan to leave an abusive relationship. It definitely takes time to go through a divorce.

Saying no to sex with someone who disgusts you can be done without delay and long in advance of other steps to escape from an abusive situation.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 18:11:19

Your children are happy when he isn't acting like the twat he is but equally on edge wondering when it will stop and daddy will revert to being the man who is mean to them and ignores them.

DebrisSlide Sun 15-Sep-13 18:15:30

What a distressing thead.

Toast, when you weigh up the costs and benefits of the 2 year thing, can you accept that perhaps you are misjudging the value of them because your frame of reference is skewed? i.e. overstating the benefit and understating the costs?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but if your counsellor is one affiliated to a religious organisation, may I suggest that you seek one out from www.bacp.co.uk?

You do not have to accept anything being done to your body that you do not wish to happen. Your husband has no right to use you like this. You are worth more than this.

Please speak to Womans Aid on 0808 2000 247 or Rape Crisis on 0330 001 2165 before you decide to have any kind of confrontation with your husband. They can help you with a plan. Also, Rights of Women on 020 7490 7689 may help give a different slant on the legalities of your situation.

Good luck - sending your strength.

LollyPop87 Sun 15-Sep-13 18:16:06

Reading this thread is heart breaking.

OP, I have been in your situation. In my case, I was too scared to leave as I was scared about what he might do if I did.

But I have been in your situation with the emotional abuse and the sex.

I tried everything. Everything and anything to try and detatch myself. I tried everything you could possibly think of.

None of it worked. It just made it more and more soul destroying. It was horrendous. It was made worse by the fact that he knew I didn't want to do it, but seemingly didn't care.

OP, I have no advice. I understand and respect what you are saying and how you feel. But please, please don't put yourself through sex when you don't want it. It is too awful.

I hope and pray that you can find another option and that you can get out as soon as possible. You don't deserve this.

Whatever you do, please don't put yourself through what you're suggesting. Even if you wanted to, it is not possible. Its impossible to detach yourself from something like that. Please don't even try.

I know, for me, I thought if I could detach myself, it would solve so many problems. It would give me some breathing space. Buy me some more time. It seemed like an easy option if I looked at it practically. But it's impossible. It really, really, truly is impossible. It is mentally and physically impossible.

I hope you can get out sooner than you think.

KiteSurfer Sun 15-Sep-13 18:16:38

Is it that you can't leave (as in physically can't) or won't leave?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 15-Sep-13 18:17:21

Hi,

Thank you for the reports about this thread.

We understand why people are concerned and we do urge you to seek help in real life with this, Toast. There's a list of places where you can turn to for support here.

We're wishing you all the best.

MNHQ.

DebrisSlide Sun 15-Sep-13 18:21:01

Sorry, the Rights of Women number is 020 7251 6577

TootiesFrootie Sun 15-Sep-13 18:29:08

OP. I would be horrified if I thought my mother stayed in an abusive relationship and had sex with someone she hated for my benefit.
Your children can be just as happy and secure with seperated parents.

Personally, I just couldn't have sex with someone just to keep the peace and I can't think of anything that would make it 'better'. Maybe, if you keep refusing then he will stop trying to force/persuade (?) you.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 18:34:28

I knew you would have been abused as a child, much as I hate to be right. You say that is the reason why you should be able to cope with this sex situation, but your past actually makes you less able to cope with. Because you were not allowed to have or understand normal, proper boundaries about your body and sex, you do not have or understand them now. You were not allowed a say in what happened sexually to you, and now you do not feel you have a right to. You had to cut off to cope, didn't you - and now you cut off (dissociate) to cope too, with alcohol, and talking of dettol baths as though they are normal (it made me feel sick and tearful to read it, btw).

But what you were also taught by abuse as a child, is the wrong belief that you can control what happens to you by your own actions.

Now then, think about this: your OH is unpleasant and ignores your DC... Then he is all sweetness and light for a bit. And yet, their mother's mood dips correspondingly. They might not understand how and why, but they will guess that mum is doing something that makes her suffer that makes dad be nicer to them. Not only does that place a big burden of guilt on them, it teaches them that you can make abusers be nice to you if you give them what they want, that you can and should be responsible for someone either being nice or nasty to you. In other words, you are training any daughters to be victims and any sons to be abusers.

You learnt these patterns in childhood, why on earth do you think they won't be learning them too? There is abuse in there home, do not think they are not being abused and damaged because his abuse of them is not physical or sexual.

Finally, a husband or partner has no more right to have sex with you than a stranger on the street. It legally rape forhim to have sex on you if you don't want it. The fact that you even have to ask shows that you are deeply troubled and damaged in this area.

OxfordBags Sun 15-Sep-13 18:37:32

I also want to add that if there is a religious and cultural element to this then know this: if there is any single god, deity, whatever, that would condone a man treating his family this way, then that being is pure evil and should not be believed in. Any religion that would make you stay is twisted beyond belief.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 18:53:05

Dont want this to come out the wrong way but is your household strict muslim OP? And are their wider issues of respect in the community etc if you leave?

BlackAffronted Sun 15-Sep-13 18:59:25

Shame on those who are sending the OP messages in private on how to cope with being raped sad

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 19:11:26

Its called pragmatism Black. The OP has made her position clear, people should respect that.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 19:41:45

Age I will necer under any circumstances assist a rapist or collude with a victim in increasing/prolonging her suffering.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 19:45:27

Op. yes you can say no.
And i think you should try it.

You can change your mind. but you could try saying no for a while and see what happens. him ignoring the kids is annoying and frustrating and upsetting but not that big a deal there are worse things and it will probably make things easier when you do leave if he has not being playing Disney dad before hand.

There are several posters on the EA thead who for various reasons are forced to stay inthe house with their abuser but who do not engage with them. they live separate lives under the same roof.that may be a way forwards.

Give yourself permission to try saying no.

You have a reason that makes you want to stay and you have decided that is a good enough reason.
But having sex just because he will be a bit nicer to the kids is not a good enough reason to put yourself through dettol baths and the risk of PTSD and break down.

I really do feel for you OP. i know this thread/reactions on it may seem harsh or strong. posters are not angry WITH you they are angry and shocked and outraged FOR you.

And they are desperate to help.

Please try saying no. give yourself permission to try.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sun 15-Sep-13 19:52:03

Y'see, if just living with the EA got you to 'the verge of a nervous breakdown', I don't think throwing two years of coerced sex into the mix is going to help you at all. It really could be the final straw for your mental health.

Have you considered that possibility in your planning?

MatildaWhispers Sun 15-Sep-13 20:17:53

I can understand how if you have a history of sexual abuse, you feel like you can be tough and put up with so much. Because your bar is set so low, it probably doesn't seem that bad to you to put yourself through the unwanted sex. If you have had to train yourself to switch off during previous abuse then it may not seem that bad to you if your husband's mood will improve for a while if you go through with it.

But honestly this will drive you crazy. With your history of abuse it is a total recipe for disaster.

Have you had any contact with WA? If you were able to meet up with someone from your local WA I doubt they would endorse your plan. And ime they are very straight talking and would help you to see and recognize your needs in a relationship much faster than a counsellor would (because the counsellor would be waiting for you to realize stuff for yourself whereas WA I found reacted to my situation in a more direct way).

If you do choose to post more there would be lots of support for you on MN.

Also MissStrawberry the poster you mentioned with the 5 or 6 threads is indeed in a much better place now.

TaudrieTattoo Sun 15-Sep-13 20:22:31

All the best, OP.

I really hope you take some of the advice and support offered here. Your situation is truly terrible, but what's good is that you do have the power to change it, even if you can't see that at the minute.

Good luck.

MatildaWhispers Sun 15-Sep-13 20:30:08

If you can say no safely, then can you just try saying no and see what happens. Or fabricate reasons to stay up later than him at night, or go to bed earlier?

Also, I don't mean this to sound patronizing in any way, but you do realize that if he doesn't actually need sex to relax. Nor do you need to have sex with him as any kind of 'payment'. You don't owe him any sex even if you feel like you do.

Rhythmisadancer Sun 15-Sep-13 20:38:42

This is just too bonkers, you need to be out of this vile situation, not finding ways to stay in it.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 21:04:28

Thanks for that MW. I appreciate you letting me know flowers.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:04:57

I'm with Cailin. no way on earth should any one post or PM suggestions that "ease" the rape of a woman, no matter what she says she might want. This thread is tragic sad

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:05:47

And you never know WHO is reading this.

MissStrawberry Sun 15-Sep-13 21:08:18

OP, if you could get out safely tomorrow would you?

NamelessMcNally Sun 15-Sep-13 21:28:00

If I posted anything to help you deal with having sex you don't want I would consider myself to be colluding in your rape. I think the majority of posters feel the same. Could I suggest you speak to WA and/or Rape Crisis.

NamelessMcNally Sun 15-Sep-13 21:29:01

And in the name of sanity do not google it.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 21:38:46

Look, this is NOT rape. It is somebody who doesnt really fancy somebody having sex with that person. Deeply unpleasant, yes, rape, no. The OP, as far as i can tell, is looking for practical, hands on advice and, dare i say, some moral support. Those crying rape and suggesting WA etc might be making themselves feel better but they are not helping the OP one IOTA.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:41:28

Age, non consensual sex IS Rape.

DebrisSlide Sun 15-Sep-13 21:42:12

Ugh.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:42:24

Coerced sex is rape.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:43:46

If op feels she has to have sex with this arsewipe to protect her children, that is rape.

ChangingWoman Sun 15-Sep-13 21:47:02

Having sex with a man who disgusts you and makes your skin crawl to the extent where you're asking for advice on how to endure it is not at all comparable to having sex when you simply don't fancy someone.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 21:48:01

Wikipedia
Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority or against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legal age of consent.[1][2][3][4]

Now, as far as i am aware, the OP is consenting. She has her reasons for doing so which she doesnt wish to digress. To suggest this is rape is actually an insult to women who HAVE been raped. Btw, i am not defending this bloke here or trying to minimise this hideous situation. But, let's just deal in the facts.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 21:51:00

Those crying rape

age please don't use the expression crying rape it is inappropriate, incorrect and deeply offensive.

roz1982 Sun 15-Sep-13 21:54:51

Age, quite a few of te examples given in that definition of rape have actually featured in the op's posts. Have you actually read the thread?

alistron1 Sun 15-Sep-13 21:54:53

I'm afraid that I can't give you any advice about how to tolerate being raped by your partner.

From what you've indicated I can only surmise that the reason you are staying is in some way linked to financial security. Is any amount of money, or happy faces round the dinner table worth this?

I really hope that you leave him and can lead a peaceful life.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 21:56:10

Turn of phrase mrsmink, offence intended to nobody although i strongly suspect you know that

ageofgrandillusion Sun 15-Sep-13 21:57:19

I have read it Roz yes. I think it is very sad.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:58:47

Age, you are missing the coercion part.

CailinDana Sun 15-Sep-13 21:58:51

Age why you are so keen to defend a man who has sex with a woman whom he knows doesn't want or enjoy it is beyond me.

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 21:59:29

Op is not doing this happily, of her own free will. She would prefer not to.

roz1982 Sun 15-Sep-13 21:59:38

If you've read it surely you can see the link/similarities between the description you have posted and some of the op's experiences. I find it obvious.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Sun 15-Sep-13 22:06:13

age a turn of phrase best not used in that case although I strongly suspect you know that

Portofino Sun 15-Sep-13 22:08:33

Personally, I reported this thread, not because I disbelieve the op, but because some of the responses are really harmful, propagate rape myths, and the very idea that mnetters would suggest "Laying back and thinking of England" which many have posted in more contemporary form is totally wrong.

NamelessMcNally Sun 15-Sep-13 22:10:26

OP feels that to protect her children she must have sex with a man. That sounds very much like coerced consent and therefore rape to me. I really hope that by using that language, in common with many others, I am not upsetting OP.

And to say that OP should not contact WA when she recognises her H is EA? Experts in supporting woman who are victims if abuse.

WholeNutt Sun 15-Sep-13 22:32:49

OP if this were your child as an adult in this sort of relationship what advice would you give?

Children are sponges and what they pick up from you both will shape their view on the world. Staying for your children does them more harm than good. They aren't blind or deaf and you owe it to them and to yourself to leave your relationship. I really hope you find the strength you need.

peachmint Mon 16-Sep-13 06:57:52

This isn't sex. It is rape. Please please call Women's Aid.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 07:55:49

op. I hope you have not felt pressured by CailinDana and anyone else who pmed you.

CailinDana Mon 16-Sep-13 08:20:53

I don't know why you think I pmed the op havea0 but I didn't. I would never pm anyone unless they asked me to.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 08:31:13

Good

I do have another question.

I dont see how this can be coercion. Are there court cases where coercion has been used in a case like this, where the woman has not tried saying no to the man?
Else, it is cruel even suggesting it as if anyone went to the police, they would get laughed at.

CailinDana Mon 16-Sep-13 08:50:35

Firstly the police don't laugh at anyone who reports a crime, they take it seriously and investigate. Psychological abuse (in this case being nasty to the children if the op doesn't have sex) is recognised form of domestic violence. If it could be proven that the op's husband was psychologically harming her children in order to obtain sex that would definitely be considered rape. However as in a huge number of rape cases proving it would be the problem. The fact that the police would more than likely not be able to charge him with rape unless he admitted it doesn't mean it's not rape. Does that make sense to you?

Btw the ip has already stated what happens when she says no - there is tension in the house and he is nasty to the children. She has sex in order to avoid her children being treated that way. If you don't count that as rape then I have serious worries about your ideas on relationships.

CailinDana Mon 16-Sep-13 08:53:16

To add the op has said more than once that her husband knows she doesn't want sex and doesn't enjoy it. What normal man would go ahead and do it anyway?

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 16-Sep-13 09:14:59

Nobody is going to laugh! shock

I think she has said no. Perhaps not very firmly, but he knows that she doesn't want to do it.

I do think that she needs to say no unequivocally, and then stick to her guns.

I am not sure if pouting and being a dick until she decides to have sex fits the legal definition of rape, and I can't believe that there would be a conviction in court, but that's not the point.

The op needs to know that she doesn't have to have sex. We can all choose to have sex for any reason we like, including for purely transactional purposes. I mean, someone can do it for money or whatever. But you have to be making a free choice. Otherwise, it's wrong.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 09:29:26

"If it could be proven that the op's husband was psychologically harming her children in order to obtain sex that would definitely be considered rape"

I would be interested to read any court cases where someone has brought a case like this to court.

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 16-Sep-13 10:07:28

Morning.

Thank you for the reports about this thread. We do have a mumsnet campaign, called we believe you as there are a lot of myths surrounding rape so it would be great if you could take a few minutes to have a look.

We hope you're OK, Toast.

MNHQ.

CailinDana Mon 16-Sep-13 10:21:56

Like I say it would be difficult to prove. If someone stole your purse and the police ciuldn't bring a case would you feel you hadn't been robbed?

MrsMinkBernardLundy Mon 16-Sep-13 10:33:41

Havea0 I have a question
where are you trying to go with this?

Are you trying to say that it is within his marital right to have sex and she as his wife should put up with it?

It isn't. she shouldn't have to.
And whether or not it would secure a legal conviction for rape is beside the point. convictions are as I am sure you know, rare in any/all cases of rape. It does not mean that the 95% or so of cases that do not secure a conviction were not rape.

the experience is damaging the OP. hence her original question.

So Havea0 exactly what is the point you are trying to make? I don't understand.

MatildaWhispers Mon 16-Sep-13 10:41:39

The OP would certainly not be laughed at. If she spoke to a police dv unit in detail she would probably find theygently suggest this could be named as rape, even if she does not quite see it as that, and even if the OP and the police both know it would be impossible to prove.

MatildaWhispers Mon 16-Sep-13 10:52:30

Not that I am implying she should go to the police btw, I am just pointing out I do not think the police would laugh at this or think it is all ok and 'not that bad really'.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 10:58:50

Where I am trying to go is this

Mumsnet isnt the law
Posters can right anything on here.
Most posters dont know a great deal about the law.
The law has to decide whether something is rape or not
So posters shouldnt be pushing someone towards the law system if they do not themselves have evidence[that is court cases] to prove that there may even be a case to answer.

OxfordBags Mon 16-Sep-13 11:13:00

Havea0, I know a lot about rape law. One of my BILs is a solicitor. The sex that the OP describes is legally classified as rape. Inability to give true consent, or consent given under duress or because of coercion, and a man having sex with a women he knows doesnot want to do it: all of these count as rape.

That you don't accept this or can't understand and are also trying to persuade the OP that she should not go to WA or the police and that she'll be laughed t, etc., are very troubling. What is wrong with you that you want to discourage someone clearly being abused in a variety of ways from seeking help?! Why do you need to minimise and deny the truth about sexual abuse and rape? Whatever your own messed-up issues, start your own thread, don't make things harder for the OP.

And going to the police is not just about seeking a conviction. Many women who leave abusive partners are helped by the police, but there is never an arrest of conviction.

The police can protect.
The police can refer a victim onto other agencies that can help better.
The police can log incidences of abuse and so on, so that if and when soke sort of further action is sought, be it a conviction, a divorce, a custody battle, whatever, there is concrete proof of the abuse, and also evidence of a pattern and type, etc.

Shame on you for trying to convince a survivor of childhood sexual abuse who is being sexually abused now, not to go seek help. Shame on you.

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 11:28:47

Havea0 - many posters on here do know the law (right down to detailed knowledge of the relevant acts of parliament, and the history of the amendments to those acts - I have seen them quote statute on this). Many are actually solicitors/barristers/police officers themselves. In addition, many are very knowledgeable about feminist theory - "rape" isn't just used as a word to mean "what the law says it is" - it has every day connotations, cross-cultural connotations which are socially and politically complex and up for discussion in a nuanced way.

Quoting Wikipedia and thinking you have therefore found the philosopher's stone for this particular discussion, and that therefore nothing more can be said because you have enlightened us all makes you look (note: makes you look, not necessarily saying you are) a blithering idiot.

Furthermore, doing so on a thread as sensitive as this, where the OP is in such a dreadful situation makes you look (same disclaimer) like a deeply unpleasant, insensitive idiot.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 11:29:48

You can post shame on you all you like. Doesnt affect me.

But a person, including this op and others reading need to know legal basis for all of this instead of just writing it.
[And with respect, the fact[assuming you are not lying], that your BIL is a solicitor doesnt mean anything. My BIL was a Bank Manager. Doesnt mean I know what I need to know about banking.

Glad about the rest of the post. All that needed to have been said a lot earlier in this thread.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 11:32:15

Still no court cases though. If I was the op or a person reading this, I would feel a whole lot more satisified if you link to some relevant court cases.

Capitaltrixie Mon 16-Sep-13 11:33:27

Toast, not sure if you're still on here, but I hope you're ok

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 11:34:23

I take back my disclaimer!

MatildaWhispers Mon 16-Sep-13 11:42:38

HaveaO sorry but I really doubt links to court cases are what the OP needs. It is very hard 'seeing' and accepting that this kind of thing is happening to you when it is happening, and recognising it is wrong and you need to put your own needs first. I doubt Toast is used to thinking about what she needs. I would imagine court cases would seem very far from relevant.

Toast hope you are ok if you are still reading.

peachmint Mon 16-Sep-13 11:46:44

HaveaO I really don't think you know what you're talking about. The majority of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows - and the majority of rapes do not include any other violence other than the act of rape itself.

A lot of people think the majority of rapes include hitting or holding down, when coercion, intimidation and psychological force are actually the norm. Having sex when you don't want to is rape, however you spin it. Having sex because you're scared to say no to your husband or you can't leave him for financial reasons or you're so ground down you don't think you have any rights any more is rape.

OP, please talk to somebody. You don't have to live like this.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Mon 16-Sep-13 11:47:41

have don't think anyone suggested she go to court for a rape conviction. how would that help?

They suggested she go to WA. which would help. this is DA.
They suggested she go to the police- they can log this and the EA, which will help if the OP needs legal aid at a later date.
And I suggested she might explore an occupation order with the police and her solicitor if that would help.

And they suggested she say no. which she is legally and morally entitled to do.

I am still lost as to what your angle on this was. the OPs question was mote can I take my h to court.

Havea0 Mon 16-Sep-13 11:50:23

Lurcio. Rape has to be structured in law. If no cases like this, even if it could be proven what the man is doing, is not classed ever anywhere in any country as rape, then it probably isnt technically rape is it? Hence the need for linked court cases in this instance.

Else the op may end up going down more wrong paths in her life.

To my mind, if the op has never tried to say no, I dont see how there is a case to answer, though I could be wrong.

[If btw, op, you want all this talk about rape on here to stop, please post so].

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 11:59:00

Turning back to the important issue: OP - I get what you're saying about not being able to leave. My sister believed this about the abusive relationship she was in for many years. And when they eventually did split, her ex was able to spin things to get much more custody than he deserved and to cause an enormous rift between her and her daughters.

But what you're putting up with is rape, and (going off what other posters have said on other threads) it does help to name it as such, because there is so much social pressure to minimise this kind of thing. I've seen many women post very movingly about how accepting this helped them to get out of the situation and start to rebuild their lives afterwards.

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 11:59:44

I am no longer going to engage with Havea0 because he/she seems to be both a bit thick and thoroughly insensitive, so there's nothing to be gained from further attempts at conversation.

OxfordBags Mon 16-Sep-13 12:00:16

Why would I lie about what my BIL does?! Not wanting to out myself here, I have professional and academic experience in this topic and BIL and I have talked in depth and shared knowledge about the rape and abuse spectrum and the laws and statues pertaining to these topics.

But aside from that, what is this fixation with court cases? As I, and others keep pointing out, the OP can go to the police or WA without a court case even being out on the table. The police and other agencies are not going to turn their backs on someone just because they can't guarantee a conviction!

You are using this whole court case issue to try to legitimise your need to minimise and deny rape and domestic abuse. You might thinkit is a clever way to not look like an apologist, but trust me, it is fooling nobody.

OP, I am so sorry that an abuse minimiser has hijacked your thread to hammer home some ignorant personal agenda. Please ignore the stuff about court cases and being laughed at. The police, Wa, and others, are there to help. They want to help. They will give you whatever help you can cope with, be it just giving you heads up on what is legal or not in marriage in terms of sex, etc., info on this reason that is making you stay, they can help you leave, log incidences, and so on. You need never take your auser to court and yet receive high levels of support and care.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 16-Sep-13 12:00:28

I don't think Strawberry should go to the police. She just needs to be encouraged to believe that she doesn't have to have sex with anyone she doesn't want to. It seems that she doesn't quite understand that, and quibbling over semantics and the law isn't going to help her.

I don't think we should derail the thread.

OxfordBags Mon 16-Sep-13 12:01:36

Oh, and what Lurcio says ^^ about ignoring.

OxfordBags Mon 16-Sep-13 12:03:10

Katy, I agree that she doesn't have to go to the police if she doesn't want to,BUT she needs to know how the police could help her if she does. Havea0 is presenting ignorant crap that could really put a victim off approaching the police if Have was believed.

MrsMinkBernardLundy Mon 16-Sep-13 12:11:58

Katy i agree. she needs to be encouraged that she can say no. she asked the question up thread.

So yes toast you can say no. try saying no for a while. try stretching two weeks to three. see what happens. keep saying no if you can. You do not have to pay this man to be nice to his own children. you do not have to agree to sex because he is your husband. you do not owe him this. he is not entitled. and he can live without it.

You do what you hAve to to stay safe at the end of the day. but yes absolutely. You are within your rights morally, legally as an independent human being to say no. no i do not want to do this.

MatildaWhispers Mon 16-Sep-13 12:17:38

Toast if you can manage to name this as rape then I agree with what Lurcio says about that being the start of understanding what is happening to you and then you can move on and rebuild your life. Which seems to be what you want as you said yourself you are not scared of single parenting.

You could talk to Rape Crisis about your situation. Even though you probably think it isn't rape. You could probably email your local branch if you don't feel you can explain your situation on the phone. They would understand and support you whether you choose to call this rape or not. If you wanted anything logged with the police you can ask them to arrange contact with the police for you. They can help you with mediating with the police so you don't have to even ring up yourself and try to get through to the right police contact and explain yourself. They can help you with all of this if you just ask them.

ALittleStranger Mon 16-Sep-13 13:20:58

Haveo you say that Mumsnet is not the law, but you seem awfully happy to pronounce on it and set yourself up as the CPS.

ageofgrandillusion Mon 16-Sep-13 13:40:25

Why all the ganging up on haveo? It's crazy. I am sure that everybody here - haveo included - agrees that the situation the OP describes is hideous. However, it is also - for want of a better word - a slightly bizarre scenario. With the best will in the world, getting a rape conviction out of the current set of circumstances is pie in the sky - and that's before we even consider that the OP's partner may have a different tale to tell. Sorry if people dont like that but shooting the messenger helps nobody.
There also seems to be a quite ridiculous one-upmanship developing on this thread in terms of who is seen to be giving best support to the OP. Frankly, people need to grow the fuck up.

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 13:53:34

Ageof - no one's saying that OP should go to the police because it'll result in a conviction. I agree entirely that it would be very, very unlikely to result in a conviction (and in any case, that sort of level of extra stress probably isn't what OP wants).

Nonetheless, what is being done to OP (being coerced into sex because her life/the life of her children will be made unbearable otherwise) is rape - not just bad sex, or a misunderstanding, or a mismatch in sex drives. And time after time I've seen women who've escaped from abusive situations say that one of the key things to finding the strength to escape was a willingness on the part of someone - a friend, a relative, someone from WA, a police officer, a stranger on the internet - to name the abuse for what it was - rape (not rubbish sex), domestic violence (not just a little shove which isn't actually a full blown punch).

That's what I think most of us are trying to say, and resorting to barrack-room-lawyer stuff either minimises or derails. A note of caution about what might reasonably be expected from the police is one thing (they can't wave a magic wand, and this is the sort of case which probably wouldn't make it to court much less to a conviction), but randomly banging on about one's own (clearly ill-informed) interpretation of law based on wikipedia when other, much better informed posters have tried to explain why this isn't helpful, is quite another.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 13:55:33

People are 'ganging up' on havea0 because he/she is talking nonsense. Nonsense. As are you age. What relevance whatsoever does 'the tale' her husband might have to tell have? Seriously, what relevance whatsoever? Also what is helpful about labelling this 'a bizarre situation'- does this mean we shouldn't treat it as what it clearly is to everybody else apart from you and havea0? Why don't you both just do one.

OxfordBags Mon 16-Sep-13 14:08:14

Ageof, the grand illusion part of your username is very apt here hmm

Again, what is this fixation with conviction? Suggesting you shouldn't go to the police if you can't secure a conviction is like saying no-one should play tennis unless they could make it to Wimbledon!

And the OP's situation is NOT 'bizarre'. Calling it something like that is shaming and isolating. Victims already blame themselves, and thinking that their scenario is really weird could make them think that it is their fault it has got so bad, think that if it is weird, no-one will believe them, understand it or grasp the details properly, or they might think that bizarre equals incredibly extreme and the enormity of tackling it feels too much.

A quick glance through just the first page of the Relationships section will tell anyone that what the OP os going through is depressingly normal. There are a lot of women out there feeling like they haven't got a choice but to submit to a man fucking them. A lot of women suffering EA. A lot of women believing it is their lot in life to have to tolerate such awful sex (abuse, rape). A lot of women believing they cannot say no, or fearing the repercussions if they do. A lot of women believing sex like that will keep him sweet to the kids. It's not bizarre, it should be, but it's not.

rainbowfeet Mon 16-Sep-13 14:13:03

While yesterday I found this thread really sad & I felt so sorry for the op.... Today I'm more inclined to want to shout .... FFS.. Life is way too short & precious to live a life like yours!!!

My mum suffered years of dv physical & emotional at the hands of my dad... Her advice recently to another female family member... Was get out now..... There is so much help out there compared to when she tried to leave my dad... The Police refused to help her saying it wasn't a Police matter!! Even a solicitor told her she's better off putting up with it & how did she think she would feed her kids without a man!!!! (Early 1970's)!! shock

From my point if view... Don't underestimate how much your kids will pick up on & the long term damage it does!!

ageofgrandillusion Mon 16-Sep-13 14:13:39

At no point does the OP say she is being coerced. Is this guy threatening her to have sex? Is he using force? For sure, the OP feels life is easier when she has sex with him from time to time - two weeks she suggests. But that does not constitute being coerced.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:17:49

She might not even recognise it as coercion/label it as coercive but that doesn't mean it isn't!!

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:22:26

Age, do you have any idea or comprehension of how emotionally and psychologically difficult it would be to realise that you are being coerced into sex by the man you are married to and have children with?? And moreover, after this realisation to actually put a name to it and accept it as coercion?? From what the op has said this is obviously the case. I have a genuine question for you, do you view it as coercion, and if not, what DO you view it as?

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 14:22:52

She's said she doesn't want it, to the point where she's bathing in dettol and the idea of initiating makes her want to throw up. She's said that her husband knows she doesn't want it, but goes ahead anyway. She's said that she thinks he likes the idea that she doesn't want it.

And you think there's no coercion going on?

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:26:54

Seriously age, if this is not coercion why don't you name it for us.

If her life is made unbearable and her children are being abused as a direct result of refusing to have sex then she is being coerced. I don't think you understand the definition or concept of coercion. If any kind of pressure, emotional blackmail or punishment is used to coerce someone into 'consenting' then the consent is not valid = rape.

MatildaWhispers Mon 16-Sep-13 14:35:55

age this really is not as bizarre as you might like to believe. And calling it that doesn't help anyone who might be considering trying to talk to a professional about such a situation. toast you would be understood by professionals at RC or WA, they would totally understand and would not see this as bizarre or weird or make you feel ashamed in any way.

ageofgrandillusion Mon 16-Sep-13 14:43:47

We know he is a moody bastard when they havent had sex for a while.
We know things settle down for a bit following sex.
But has a conversation ever taken place about this? - ie "have sex with me or i will make yours and the kids lives hell."
We simply dont know if that conversation has taken place. The OP has concluded herself that having sex is the best way to keep the peace, so to speak.
It is a very disturbing situation. But is she being coerced? In her own mind she doesnt have a choice. Many posters here think actually she does have a choice.
My point is this - this is far from black and white. The OP herself has witheld some information which may also answer questions. There simply is not enough information here to say that this is coercion and therefore rape.
Fwiw, i think this is a very sad situation. I wish the OP well.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:52:16

What difference does it make whether that 'conversation' has taken place or not? OP has explained that that is the case. Just because he has not directly said that to her, doesn't change the reality of the situation. Is OP's word not enough? We have to take her at her word.

The words coercion and choice are completely juxtaposed and yet you use them in the same substance which really does highlight just how clueless you are. Your posts are unhelpful; very much so.

'We know he's a moody bastard when they haven't had sex for a while'

Your an idiot.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:53:01

*sentence

CailinDana Mon 16-Sep-13 14:54:03

So a man can get away with treating his wife and children like shit as long as he doesn't say he's doing it?

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 14:57:18

The information that OP has decide to withhold are her reasons for staying. She has been very forthcoming on the main issues we are discussing - his emotional and sexual abuse of her.

MatildaWhispers Mon 16-Sep-13 14:57:22

The OP may be at a point where, if she has the conversation and he won't accept her saying 'no' and then forces her in whatever way to have sex (maybe a very subtle way I don't mean leap on her and viciously force her necessarily) she will be forced to accept she is being raped.

If she avoids the conversation, she can pretend she is in control and managing her feelings and coping fine.

ageofgrandillusion Mon 16-Sep-13 14:59:48

Your an idiot
I'm sure even you can see the irony of that post Roz.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 15:06:15

No, sorry.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 15:06:59

If you are referring to a grammatical error, bravo, well done. Please stop posting now.

roz1982 Mon 16-Sep-13 15:07:18

{clutching at straws}

Toastandstrawberryjam Mon 16-Sep-13 15:07:27

Hi I just wanted to say thank you for everyone's input. I have been reading the posts although I'm not quite sure I understand everything that's being said. I need to sit down with a cup of coffee and try and make sense of it all. Thanks again.

LurcioLovesFrankie Mon 16-Sep-13 15:28:44

Big hug.

You have (quite rightly, because it might identify you) chosen not to explain why you feel you can't leave (and you do not need to justify every bit of your decision to people on the internet) and I do understand that there are circumstances which might make it very hard for you (circumstances which are far from trivial). At the same time, it might be that you are so beaten down mentally by this man that you can't see the wood for the trees, and there is an exit strategy that you haven't seen yet. But either way I see that you're talking to people in RL about this, which is good.

And I hope you can find a way forward, and I hope that the vast majority of us have helped you to understand that what this man is doing is horrible, and that in an ideal world you should not have to put up with it (and I hope that possibly even in this far-from-ideal world we've helped you to think about some alternatives to lying back and bearing it).

I hope that you and your children escape from this awful situation as soon as possible.

Capitaltrixie Mon 16-Sep-13 16:26:15

Glad you're ok toast.
Good idea, sit down, read and try to process it all. I'm hoping it starts to make sense and you find a way to see clearly what you need to do and ultimately become strong enough to leave (soon).

I'm so sorry you've previously had your boundaries shot to oblivion. As a side issue, you've mentioned counselling (and it sounds like it's been helpful), but it might be worth seeking out some other therapy or even going down the path of DBT (dialectal behavioural therapy, rather than cognitive).

Have a <hug> and some flowers and take a step back to think about this and process it all.

It's quite scary, reading hundreds of women telling you your life is damaging you and your children, and your choices are wrong. But you are so far inside the abuser's rabbit hole that you can't see clearly. That doesn't mean a word of what has been written here is not correct (apart from one poster's very skewed perception of consent) so please do give it some serious consideration.

Dillie Mon 16-Sep-13 16:50:00

Up until 5 months ago I was in a similar situation to you toast

My ex didn't exactly force me into sex, but he sure made my life miserable saying I was selfish, frigid and a lesbian! The fact that he made my blood turn cold didn't seem to matter. In the end I just put up with it and got the deed done, knowing that he wouldn't make the days following miserable. If he didn't get any he would sulk, shout and generally be a real twunt.

Like you I waited a few years until my dd grew up a bit and my finances were secure(ish). Looking back now I so wish I got out 7 years ago.

Those 7 years destroyed me. I am a shadow of what I used to be until I met this 'man'. Zero confidence, trust no one and have very few friends. He saw to that!

I left the following week my 8 year old dd stuck up for me. Only then did I open my eyes and took off the rose glasses, saw what was really happening and stopped praying and hoping it would get better. Believe me, it doesn't. I hated myself for allowing my dd to not only see but understand what was going on. She didn't have to be told, she knew. They are far more in tune than we give them credit for.

I am in therapy now which is helping. Was not until my therapist said it is rape and psychological abuse that it hit home what a doormat I had become, just to keep the peace. Now that I am working on accepting it was what it is, I can now start to heal.

I appreciate that now is not the time for you to leave, start planning at least. Please don't leave it too long, as sometimes tomorrow never comes and it is easier and far less scary to stay put.

Look after yourself.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now