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Reaction to men and women on here

(188 Posts)
Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 16:40:52

From reading threads on here, you tend to get differing attitudes, outrage, advice, on similar threads depending on whether its a woman or a man. For example:
Scenario:
On a post about a husband not being keen on sex at the moment. The woman started giving him oral, he wasn't enthused and it didn't go any further.
Responses:
He is a lazy lover/he should have said no/get rid of him.

A similar post where roles are reversed:

Responses:
You didn't say yes/you may have been raped/you shouldn't feel pressured in to sex/you don't owe him anything.

Scenario:
My husband is ignoring me.

Response:
He is withholding communication this is a form of EA. leave him.

Scenario:
Im not talking to my husband. I'm scared he will kick off if I tell him how I feel. (A valid reason for not communicating).

Response:
This is EA, leave him.

Scenario:
I want to leave my husband.

Responses:
Plan/organise/don't tell him/check finances/speak to solicitor, etc.

Scenario:
My husband left me. I've received legal documentation.

Response:
That's awful/it seems premeditated/he's been planning this behind your back.

The above are summaries and just examples. What I really want to know is whether you think if two sides of the same argument wrote in they would get conflicting advice(scenarios like above, not extreme cases)? Whether you would get fairer advice if you were non gender specific in your thread set up? Whether different sexes should get differing advice? Are some people too bitter to give a fair assessment?

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 16:46:12

Such is life. I think that mumsnet often gets accused of this and it is often blown out of proportion e.g. Threads are often not comparable and often people focus on the advice they want to see and miss other posters giving different advice but I think we'd all recognise that on a predominantly female advice board the female posters giving advice might have a bias towards women. I don't think the threads are always as straight forward as you make out really and people are obviously going to be suspicious of some men coming here to complain about their wives in case it is a deliberate undermining of their wife's support - that has happened often.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 13-Sep-13 16:47:29

On a predominantly women's forum, there will be a tendency to take sides with the woman. In a message board situation where the situation is being described by one person, of course there won't be two sides to the argument. Also there is a 'herd mentality' knee-jerk thing on message boards.... try saying you support the Conservative Party elsewhere on MN and be sure to be wearing your asbestos knickers. However, there's rarely just one stock opinion about a problem and, even if those voices are in a minority, they will be on the thread.

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 16:47:43

Wherever you ask for advice always some of it will be ridiculous, biased or unreasonable. Fact is people come here, particularly women but increasingly men, because the advice is good.

AngelsLieToKeepControl Fri 13-Sep-13 16:48:19

People can only comment on the ops perspective though.

We only know what the op feels, how they reacted, their side of the back story of the relationship and can't attribute feelings and thoughts to the other person except in the most general of terms.

Saying that, I have seen multiple times the op has put their side over and people have said they are out of order as well, so the threads aren't always completely bias towards the person who started them.

AnyFucker Fri 13-Sep-13 16:48:28

You've really been putting some thought into this, haven't you ?

missbopeep Fri 13-Sep-13 16:49:12

You won't get any real answers to this- is it some kind of academic exercise?

IMO I find that some people here use it to vent their own experiences and are not remotely impartial.. There is a lot of pseudo-psycho babble from people who think they are qualified in psychology or counselling just because they have read a few books on these.

Having said that, there are some words of wisdom sometimes.

BeCool Fri 13-Sep-13 16:57:30

man leaves woman
woman leaves man
There are always going to be ooodles of differences in each of the above scenarios OTHER THAN the gender roles. This will affect responses.

There are more women on MN than men - who are likely to empathise with women better than men.

Re the Script - wise women here KNOW about the script (when H is cheating on W). They know it and I've read so many threads when the OP declares there's no way he cheating, to come back days later to declare you are right, he's been cheating for months/years. It is not the fault of the MN Massive that men are so predictable, and that their behaviour in certain situations is so McD's and can be ticked off a friggin chart!

You will often find the exact opposite of your stereotypical examples happening on MN too.

Such is life.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Fri 13-Sep-13 16:58:32

Meh. Primarily women on here. They are going to " stick up " for other women. Often, but not always, for immediately apparent reasons.

Having said that, some quite jaw dropping examples of double standards pop up. grin, I quite enjoyed the " if he's not having sex with you, he's being EA.....If you're not having sex with him, it's because he's being EA"

Chuckle and move on, OP.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 17:01:44

I agree many words of wisdom. It's hard to be totally impartial. I get that a great deal of thread posters are looking for a hug and reassurance which does shape a lot of responses.
I think I find it funny that there are people that are so bitter. All they write is LTB. It's like a game of Sims to them. They think they are Jeremy Kyle (one of them is on the thread).
I think the more general threads are better for advice.

AnyFucker Fri 13-Sep-13 17:05:08

grin

I see your point, noticed a bit of it from time to time but generally people do give helpful advice, with a bit of care thrown in to soften the blow at times.

Boosterseat Fri 13-Sep-13 17:12:30

People are bitter because they learnt the hard way, years of shitty/abusive/disrespectful behavior can do that to a person. Thinking bitter posters are "funny" seems cruel as it may not be clear what the poster has experienced which will shape their view.

Hopefully the OPs will consider all advice and opinions and find something which resonates with their own situation.

You will of course encounter the trolls who cant stand to see anyone else happy but i believe the experience, kindness and humanity shown on MN outweighs the trolling by a country mile!

^Scenario:
On a post about a husband not being keen on sex at the moment. The woman started giving him oral, he wasn't enthused and it didn't go any further.
Responses:
He is a lazy lover/he should have said no/get rid of him.

A similar post where roles are reversed:

Responses:
You didn't say yes/you may have been raped/you shouldn't feel pressured in to sex/you don't owe him anything.^

If this example relates to the poster who cried whilst her partner continued to get his kicks, then I'm sorry i disagree with you. Not taking an interest in a blowjob is not the same as someone being coerced into sexual activity which then proceeded to make them cry.

KidFromVault101 Fri 13-Sep-13 17:12:50

I love the question finale to the original post, I read it with ever more dramatic music and a booming serious voice.

Are they too bitter, OP, ARE THEY???

Anniegetyourgun Fri 13-Sep-13 17:13:43

You find it funny that there are people that are so bitter? Have you paused to wonder why they became bitter? Because they had hideous experiences that embittered them, that's why. Hilarious. You may not agree with such posters but the least you can do is to sympathise a little bit with their point of view.

KidFromVault101 Fri 13-Sep-13 17:17:29

Is that to me?!?

I find it amusing the OP trots out woman-hating phrases such as bitterness to dismiss the opinions of people who are experienced.

lurkinglorna Fri 13-Sep-13 17:18:08

normally if i'm reading a thread I look at the posts and regardless of whether the poster is male/female I think

1. some absolute "fuck that dude knows their shit" gems

2. some useful observations, often someone who has gone though the same situation/relationship dynamics so I find that really useful - as in no analysis, just someone saying "this happened to me and this is what I found" is good. i don't really want to emulate my mothers life path, so its good reading stuff from sorted women older than me.

3. some fairly irrelevant ones

4. someone with a clear axe to grind about ????? or a point to make about something who just wants to pursue this argument (men are good, women are bad, women are bad, men are good, I am good and better than you losers, blah blah blah....)

5. some totally "out there" comments which make me grin THERE ARE SOME VERY FUNNY AND WITTY WOMEN ON HERE

KidFromVault101 Fri 13-Sep-13 17:18:54

Of course I could take it seriously, but you know, meh.

lurkinglorna Fri 13-Sep-13 17:20:15

personally I like that Mumsnet is a mainly female space, it's why I come here?

love the good manly men in my life, but also like the idea of "gendered spaces" (is that the right term?)

if I'm on a night out with my sportsmates and then someone's boyfriend comes along its like confusedhmm

its a bit weird assuming that just because "someone is a man posting" he represents ALL men or can speak for all men, but often he takes on or is given that role? but IRL no man I know uses internet forums or anything like that (unless they're for some really specialised hobby or football).

DC's board at single sex places.

The man I'm on half a promise to works in a very male dominated profession - we were an item last year. I liked and found in very attractive that he had his own stuff that he could "just do with his dad and colleagues"

(which of course I wouldn't dream of wanting to be involved in).

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 17:20:23

Kid - it's hard to say. You would have to know them in real life.
Annie - I meant 'funny' as in 'weird'. Like 'the weather is funny today. I do have sympathy. Why not use their experience to help(not in all cases). Instead of just saying LTB.

lurkinglorna Fri 13-Sep-13 17:26:31

Is there an equivalent to Mumsnet that is as popular? I think there should be a "space" for men (delighted the DS has developed sporting interests and solid male friendships).

BeCool Fri 13-Sep-13 17:27:28

How many times do people just say "LTB" though? When other posters aren't saying the same thing in a longer/more eloquent way? I don't think it's that common at all.

I do see a few humorous LTB's but I don't' think that is what the OP means.

BeCool Fri 13-Sep-13 17:28:39

I agree Lorna though surely they can sort that out themselves?
Do I have to do everything etc etc etc? grin

Lovingfreedom Fri 13-Sep-13 17:28:45

I say LTB because someone said it to me once on this site and it's the best advice I've ever had. But if you're not with a B in the first place, then I wouldn't recommend LT...unless you want to LT for some other reason in which case, do.

Anniegetyourgun Fri 13-Sep-13 17:29:05

Depressingly often, though, LTB is the best course.

lurkinglorna Fri 13-Sep-13 17:29:41

I always thought "LTB" was a send-up, a bit like pombears or something....

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 17:40:12

I was just interested whether using 'DP' instead of 'DH or DW' and not divulging whether you are a woman or a man would change reactions to the same scenario.

lurkinglorna Fri 13-Sep-13 17:48:25

treen why do you ask? smile I love a good distraction I've got 70 pages to proofread

but what's motivated you to start this thread today?

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 18:03:26

Lurking - I was thinking about it from reading many threads. I believe it would make a difference to reaction to a thread. I understand that it is hard to get a definitive answer without a study. I also get why this might happen.
I wondered whether other people observed this? And whether it is right to give advise with gender bias when the majority of relationships are hetero and involve both a woman and a man?

I've decided that personal threads are tricky

AnyFucker Fri 13-Sep-13 18:09:21

No shit, Sherlock

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 18:16:26

I mean tricky if definitive relationship advise is given when only one side of the 'argument'. Especially, life changing advise and advise that is different for women and men for the same scenario.

joblot Fri 13-Sep-13 18:33:09

I love mn. We are grown ups, we chose to post here. I like and have benefited from the tough love responses. I can get vacuous hun responses all day long. I like the edge and the variety of perspectives, even if I disagree. Go elsewhere if it offends you, but for many the hard talking and the pro women starting point many posters have, makes this site unique and valuable

Boomba Fri 13-Sep-13 18:35:54

Oh god...most of the time, it is the man being an arsehole, that's why responses are biased. Its experience and statistics

and, yes there are well known scripts. Its so familiar and predictable for lots of people on here

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 18:37:08

Job - that's good. I was posing the question. I personally like the site too.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 18:40:04

Boomba - I get that. I was looking more at the reading and interpretation of a situation. Whether these 'scripts' blind people from assessing situations.

usualsuspect Fri 13-Sep-13 18:42:48

LTB.

Boomba Fri 13-Sep-13 18:44:18

I don't think they do

i think many people have light bulb moments, thanks to those that know the scripts

there are lots of people blind to the scripts

i think if you haven't experienced these behaviours it is easy to be hmm that these men follow such predictable patterns. I know i was disbelieving

lurkinglorna Fri 13-Sep-13 18:46:30

usualsuspect grin

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 18:53:59

Usual - grin

Boomba - but in those scenarios it wouldn't be biased. It's scenarios that can be twisted to create a bias. A bias in the reading of a situation.

Zoe789 Fri 13-Sep-13 18:58:10

I agree with Anniegetyourgun!

I think often women post when they're completely at the end of their tether and if the situations described were reversed, their husbands would have had such a sense of entitlement that comparable situations aren't comparable!

Iyswim.

Boomba Fri 13-Sep-13 19:01:04

Oh ok, i don't see that on here treen

ChangingWoman Fri 13-Sep-13 19:15:39

Situations on Relationships are often extreme (abuse, addiction etc..) and merit a LTB. I don't feel it's overused. Only a fool, a psychopath, or someone with no idea of normal relationships would recommend that anyone stays with a partner in these circumstances.

AIBU is the place for shouting LTB about forgotten anniversaries or toilet seats left up. It isn't meant to be serious there.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 19:19:09

Boomba - you have not seen the threads about one partner wanting sex and one not. With the man and woman reversed in each thread. There are ones on EA and leaving partners. Others include the comparison between the responses to postnatal depression and a husband with depression, etc.
I don't think the difference is wrong. Just that there is different rules

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 19:21:21

Changing - I agree. It's just some. Normally less extreme topics where it happens

MagzFarqharson Fri 13-Sep-13 19:53:00

Right, I was an early poster on one thread where the OP was complaining that her DP or DH was happily accepting blow jobs but 'wasn't in the mood' and didn't want to 'upset' her as she was clearly having Such A Good Time.. I accused him of being lazy.

We don't hear many women on here saying 'oh, my DH keeps going down on me and giving me amazing orgasms when I'm not really in the mood,... how can I get him to stop without seeming ungrateful? Should I LTB?'

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 20:02:54

Mags - I know but what would the response be. That thread was more concerning about consent and how that was breached.
You don't know if that particular scenario reached climax or he stopped it before. Anyway, I was more interested in the difference in response.

MagzFarqharson Fri 13-Sep-13 20:18:31

Well looking back on it, OP said she judged his reaction. He stroked her hair as she was doing it, I would take that as consent in as much as he was ok about it, even - dare I say - encouraging it?

She then goes on to say.... 'Afterwards, nothing .....', which I took to mean that the deed was done.

Obviously I can't say one way or the other, but it seemed to me that consent was given, if not orally but body-language-wise, and he enjoyed the experience sufficiently to reach orgasm, but then couldn't be arsed reciprocating - the situation that the OP has apparently found herself in for quite a while now.

If as a woman you're not in the mood for sex, you don't stroke your DP's hair while they're 'doing something' to you? Of course not.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 20:28:40

Magz - you are funny. I'm glad you are not working for the government advising on rape. Not sure if body language is consent and ever will be.
Do you think that a woman should have sex with man because the man has gone down on her, with out giving legal consent, and if she doesn't she is lazy?

I disagree completely

MagzFarqharson Fri 13-Sep-13 20:42:44

Obviously I, in no way whatsoever, think that a woman should have sex with a man because he has gone down on her, where does that come from?

As for consent, he at no point told her to stop what she was doing, attempted to move away from the situation, physically tried to prevent her continuing - but actively participated by stroking her hair in a, presumably, affectionate and appreciative manner?

There is no indication, in this particular scenario, that the OP forced any unwanted sexual actions on the DP. If she had then this would clearly have been wrong and I would be one of the voices condemning such behaviour.

We'll agree to differ.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 20:51:21

Mags - your idea of consent is warped. I don't get it. None of what you have listed is consent. If a girl is frozen and has no air in her lungs and can't say 'no', that is not consent. I think you need to look at the bigger picture for consent. You can't have different consent for different scenarios.

1. is she lazy if she doesn't have sex with him?
2. Should the man leave her for not having sex?
3. Does the man deserves sex?

mammadiggingdeep Fri 13-Sep-13 20:59:26

I think people who think LTB is an overreaction and stemmed from bitterness obviously haven't experienced abuse and betrayal at the depths of the posters who advise it or the posters asking for advice.

Its as simple as that. Before I experiences emotional abuse and betrayal first hand, my experience if men and families was pretty little house on the prairie. I would have said "relationships are hard work.....work at it some more". I'd still say it if abuse wasn't involved......where abuse is involved it can only be LTB (whether that be leave the bastard or leave the bitch).....
The word "funny" in relation to posters posting from their experience leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I hope some posters on here never find themselves in some of the scenarios some mnetters have experienced.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 21:08:41

Mamma - I agree. I'm just saying that if partner A is being ignored and seen to be withdrawing communication from partner B. (labelled abuse)
Partner A wont talk to partner B because they are scared about the reaction when they do. (Labelled abuse).
Only partner A posts. Gets whatever advise.
It's just that I have seen both partner A and B been favoured if they a woman and partner A and B chastised for being a man.

I'm not talking about serious cases

Thing is, it is frankly stupid to ignore the fact that we live in a world in which men are privileged over women. We live in a culture which tells women over and over again that they are freaks and failures if they don't have A Man In Their Lives, that relationships are 'hard work' while men are not told that if they are unhappy in a relationship they need to make more effort. Women are blamed for being too fat, too thin, too career-minded, wanting babies, not wanting babies, etc etc.

To take that favourite example of My Partner Doesn't Want (enough) Sex - when a woman posts this, it is usually clear from her posts that she has been patient, kind and understanding, that she has dieted, shopped for new lingerie, cooked special dinners, arranged 'couple- time' and the man has made vague promises of paying more attention to their sex life but has done nothing. When men post on the same topic, it is usually clear from their posts that they are pressuring their wives to have sex and not listening when the wives say that they would like more foreplay, or the man to do more domestic work, or to treat his wife with more courtesy. So different OPs get different responses. This site as a whole prioritizes women over men. That's good, because nowhere else does.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 21:18:33

Solid - I find it the opposite but that is just on here. I haven't looked anywhere else. Which agrees with your later point. So I'm glad it's not just me that see the bias. People have kind of agreed but not as conclusively as yourself.
I know it's good that there is woman's forum, but do you thinks these kind of built in affiliations orbit being able to see each other views is partly why there isn't equality or relationships break down?
Do you think gender biased advise is rational or helpful?

Boomba Fri 13-Sep-13 21:38:02

Are you a man, treen?

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 21:40:57

No. I'm married with kids

MorrisZapp Fri 13-Sep-13 21:47:58

I agree with OP, I see double standards on here all the time. I'm guilty of it myself, I advise my friends/ sisters etc very much as women not as people.

The same applies to anger. Women are seen as having a right to anger, and a right to shout etc. whereas men who raise their voices are labelled as abusive.

Darkesteyes Fri 13-Sep-13 21:48:14

Treen take a look at this thread that i posted on recently. Id say it works out pretty much even.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1844308-Slept-with-someone-else-after-years-of-sexless-relationship-with-DP-Need-perspective

Darkesteyes Fri 13-Sep-13 21:49:03

Agree with Solid.

unBant Fri 13-Sep-13 21:58:27

I've noticed a disparity in responses to issues - but that's kind of parse for the course on a board dominated by women. I do think there are some overly-bitter responses, but the biggest problem I think is that people get advised to leave the bastard when they've only heard one side of the story - the OP doesn't generally tell her OHs view on things, so people don't hear why he acts the way he does. This is why relationship counselling is better than an internet forum for advice on whether you're going to dissolve your marriage or not.

Of course, advice on WA, solicitors, moral support, when the man has walked out, or posts on how to tell the truth about that deleted internet history - all those are invaluable. This place is a huge support network for women, and it should stay that way - but I wonder, out of interest, how many marriages are now on the rocks, or at least damaged, because the wife is reading innocent text messages, emails etc when the guy hasn't actually done anything wrong?

If a woman posts 'he's been snooping through my phone' the response is 'Paranoid EA bastard! leave him!' - but if a woman posts 'my DH has been a bit off recently the advice is 'snoop through his phone' - when the man may just be having a bad time at work, or worried about a lump he's found. Those posters don't come back and say they were wrong and were given bad advice - so all we see on here is the justified support, not the bad advice which may lead to divorces for encouraging unjustified behaviour.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 21:59:16

Darke - that one is pretty cut and dry depending on your view of the term 'marriage' and how highly you value sex. I think most people would say to ask about an open relationship, others may value sex.
I'm talking about scenarios like in my OP or PN depression vs husbands depression, for example.
I agree with solid too, that there is a gender bias

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 22:04:16

Unbant - I would say that's true. I would say it happens vice vercer on men dominated forums. It's the ramifications that I'm concerned with. People say they should be less impressionable but I find if the general thread response is gender bias the OP tends to start to agree.

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 22:08:39

There's a certain amount of selective reading going on though too I think. There are virtually no threads which are as unanimous as is trying to be made out... This is the crap assertion that MN has some kind of hive mind reinvented in a more palatable way.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 22:12:26

Offred - of course not. It's not tick box. There are majority views though on a thread. Where phrases are repeated. 'I agree with' its a general feel for the reaction on offer.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 22:18:15

Morris - I'd agree. I think double standards are around. Both from men and women. But I'm not sure they are helpful.
I would disagree with the anger part though

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 22:20:56

I think this is really a point proving and largely academic exercise.

You will surely attract people to this thread who feel they have been personally slighted by the MN massive.

However, all I see on here is unsubstantiated, unprovable and intangible claims which importantly to me are coming across as designed to deliberately undermine support which is often very important for vulnerable women in, like SGB says, a society where there is little to support women.

Silly game to play with people's lives.

As I was trying to say and as SGB said better, women need the female bias on here. Although I seriously dispute the claim it is as strong as is being made out to be.

Some of the speculation on this thread sails close to implying that women should only be told LTB if he is an abusive bastard.

Also I have seen plenty of threads posted by men who got loads of support.

The ones posted by men that have been jumped on have created an air of suspicion, normally that the motive of the post is to invade the women being spoken about's source of support or because they are obviously just designed to be a wind up.

Otherwise there are massive amounts more posts by women than men and that is highly likely to skew perceptions in itself.

Anniegetyourgun Fri 13-Sep-13 22:27:27

Some say snoop through his phone, others say don't, and a few believe if it's come to needing to snoop the relationship is already doomed. That is quite a good example of an issue arousing very polarised opinions. Others are more likely to be unanimous.

Depression is not so much gender biased usually; there's a lot of sympathy not only for posters with depression, but for their depressed spouses as well. The gloves come off, though, when the depressed person is behaving unpleasantly to their nearest and dearest and/or making no attempt to improve themselves. And frankly, the person most likely to be living in denial of having depression while everyone else tiptoes round them is a bloke.

And if you think women always come off best, just look at some of the mother/MIL threads!

ChangingWoman Fri 13-Sep-13 22:35:44

Why assume it's always necessary to have both sides of the story before forming an opinion?

Some behaviour is unacceptable regardless of motivation.

For example, I'd still say LTB if someone had been hit by their partner regardless of whether they'd been drinking, suffered abuse as a child, or just had a bad day.

Darkesteyes Fri 13-Sep-13 22:36:17

YY Offred.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 22:42:12

Annie - I agree. There is great advise on here.
But if a man wrote a thread about how his wife with PN depression wouldn't communicate, she was distant, snappy, shows him no love, makes no effort with the children, doesn't do her share around the house. (For example).
Do you think the majority response would be to make ultimatums, start making precautions to leave her, speak to a lawyer about the kids, etc?

Offred - not' to only leave if they are abusive', but make it a clear option. Not tell someone too on such little info

MatildaWhispers Fri 13-Sep-13 22:43:05

I agree on the female bias but in my own experience that was exactly what was needed. The advice I received here was amazingly similar to the advice from WA. My views on relationships and what constitutes a normal relationship were hugely challeged by posting on here, I am not aware of any other forum quite like this one.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 22:44:05

Changing - again I agree. I've stated this isn't about 'cut and dry' scenarios or extremely one sided scenarios

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 22:50:35

But treen. You haven't cited any threads so we can make up our minds. For ourselves.

You are making up imaginary threads and citing those in support of your argument.

Can you see now why it is silly?

In reality you would need to comprehensively study the threads and responses properly to form any real conclusions of any worth.

I don't think this thread, based on made up threads or impressions of some selectively chosen and selectively read and selectively remembered threads has anything to add to MN. Apart from being another thread which tries to undermine support for women struggling in difficult relationships.

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 22:51:57

And honestly men have the whole world... Just let women have MN...

Offred Fri 13-Sep-13 22:53:11

<tired>

unBant Fri 13-Sep-13 22:56:09

Changing - so would I. And I have. I've said to LTB when the situation is clear cut, if it's not I withhold comment because I don't want to contribute to such as life changing decision if I'm not sure of the facts.

Personally I think it's a good idea to get a more complete idea of the story in cases where the situation may be ambiguous before casting judgement and giving what may be bad advice from a stranger on the internet which will affect people for the rest of their lives.

Yes, in those cases I'd rather wait for more details than come up with a stock response. But if someone is in danger, or constant misery, I'll yell LTB as loud as anyone else.

MatildaWhispers Fri 13-Sep-13 23:03:43

But what do you actually mean by 'clear cut'? We only ever get the one side that we are responding to? confused

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:05:12

Offred - but you have disagreed with what I have said without quoting threads. So you must be doing that on a feeling or a perception of threads you have read.
Maybe one day I'll set up to Identical threads with gender roles swapped under different usernames and check the responses.
It's hard to identify. Look at the dating threads. It's never the OP's fault. It's always a weird date

unBant Fri 13-Sep-13 23:12:25

Treen - don't go down that particular conversational route. Believe me.

DuelingFanjo Fri 13-Sep-13 23:12:41

I suspect quite often that people come here and deliberately post threads that give the same problem from each side just to see what the reaction is.

Personally if a poster is genuine I think there is always a wide range of answers and it's very rare for a poster to be told the same thing by all responders.

What I really hate is when poster (usually men, unfortunately) accuse women here of being bitter and only able to give one kind of advice because they are so bitter about their experience. This is so untrue and such a typical thing to say - it is said a lot. It's typical of people who want to shut down a conversation or not accept reasonable and good advice.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo Fri 13-Sep-13 23:15:19

Urgh, just read the op's latest response.

Please don't do that. It's really not an original thing to do. It has been done before. It's shit and it really just causes pointless grief on a forum that is here to help people. Conducting stupid experiments to try and prove a theory that mumsnetters are just bitter old hags is B O R I N G, predictable and unhelpful.

FrancescaBell Fri 13-Sep-13 23:17:13

Maybe one day I'll set up to Identical threads with gender roles swapped under different usernames and check the responses.

I think you already did that earlier this week, didn't you?

It was the thread about blow-jobs that's already been referred to on this one.

I posted that I didn't think the female OP had secured 'enthusiastic consent' and it's what struck me second only to thinking that some man with a point to prove had broken Talk Guidelines and had started a false thread in order to prove a point.

I won't link it here on the remote offchance it's some poor bugger's support thread.

hmm

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:21:25

Duelling - this is a topic to see the response. A) to see if people think there is a bias(which I've said is not gender exclusive) and whether it is rational and helpful when talking about life decisions.
Would you ask for a balanced view from a catholic about stem cell research, would you ask a man united fan about cities best player?maybe you wouldn't get the best advise.
I was mainly asking, would you get better/different reaction to a thread if you didn't divulge gender?

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:24:00

Fran - I posted on that thread. Not my thread.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:25:32

Duelling - I only wrote that test because people were writing about being an academic study. It would be the test to do

DuelingFanjo Fri 13-Sep-13 23:29:09

I think you are wrong to assume that all Catholics on a forum for Catholicism would be against stem cell research or that all united football fans would be unable to give an opinion on who they think is the best player in another team.

I think BeerTricksPotter summed it up very well in her last post.

FrancescaBell Fri 13-Sep-13 23:29:37

Sock-puppeting is also an offence and a dead giveaway.

DuelingFanjo Fri 13-Sep-13 23:30:01

And the post before that.

FrancescaBell Fri 13-Sep-13 23:34:04

Are you a man, Treen?

No, I'm married with kids

grin grin grin

So was my husband, when I last checked. But like you, he's definitely a man wink.

Thing is, if MN is part of a cultural shift that encourages more women to dump unsatisfactory men that would be its greatest achievement. Because far more men are abusive to their female partners than women are abusive to their male partners. Because far too many men still feel entitled to abuse, bully, belittle and extract obedience and submission from women, because women are just 'women', not people.

Because the more women dump unsatisfactory men, the more men have to actually change their behaviour, or they will be bred out of existence. It was still the case up until a hundred years or so ago that 'society' was structured to make it almost impossible for women to survive without a male owner. Within living memory, a woman could not get credit or buy a house without her male owner's permission. The fact that it is now possible for a woman to survive economically without a male owner is great, but there is still a great deal of cultural pressure on women to accept being owned by a man - to want to be owned by a man. Because it suits men for women to seek and desire to.... service men sexually and domestically in return for being 'loved'.

Yeah yeah, of course, Not Your Nigel. There are plenty of men who are not abusive, not selfish or lazy, not entitled. There are plenty of people engaging in heterosexual monogamous relationships which are happy and life-enhancing. But that doesn't stop the mainstream culture from harming women by pressuring them to accept shitty relationships rather than be single.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:35:33

Agenda?let beer to give her insight.
To assume I have an agenda must mean you have an agenda. What is your agenda behind getting defensive behind a topic of discussion.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:37:03

Fran - so if your husband was ask if they were a man?

He would say no, married with kids?

ChangingWoman Fri 13-Sep-13 23:37:53

"this isn't about 'cut and dry' scenarios or extremely one sided scenarios"

The majority of posts on Relationships look pretty unambiguous to me. The minority about very standard disagreements, posted as vents etc.. don't tend to draw as big a response or any LTBs. I can't really understand how you could genuinely have got yourself worked up about them.

As for the issue of taking advice from strangers on the internet, I have to say that MN advice over the years has generally been of a much higher calibre than that of well-meaning but frankly ignorant real life friends and family.

It is up to any OP whether or not to take any advice offered. We're generally competent adults on here and responsible for our own decisions.

FrancescaBell Fri 13-Sep-13 23:40:02

Er no, he would just say 'yes' but would leave the rest of that sentence out of it, because as a clause it adds nothing but obfuscation.

Then again, he doesn't tell lies on parenting forums and has better things to do than start goady threads.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:40:43

Solid- I agree that is a problem bigger than advising one person. MN is great. I was just asking the question of affects of bias in scenarios that can affect people

Darkesteyes Fri 13-Sep-13 23:42:54

Agree Friends and familys advice can come with an agenda all of its own Eg. "you should stay together for the sake of the kids"

"there are no divorces in our family" etc especially from in laws or sometimes even the posters own parents usually because they are scared they wont see as much of their grandchildren or they dont want "shame" brought on the family.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo Fri 13-Sep-13 23:46:23

My 'agenda' is to point out that when people post on here they don't receive the same response from every person. This place is not full of bitter women who can't give unbiased advice and talk of starting threads to test a theory is boring and unoriginal.

And well said solidgoldbrass.

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:48:56

Fran - I thought I would give some background as OPs tend to. I'm telling the truth, believe it or not. I don't see why your so against a woman wanting equality or at least less emphasis on gender difference.
I'm glad your husband doesn't lie on parenting forums. He probably doesn't on dating forums either lol

DuelingFanjo Fri 13-Sep-13 23:53:17

What I really want to know is whether you think if two sides of the same argument wrote in they would get conflicting advice(scenarios like above, not extreme cases)? They would get different advice from different people. If they had an agenda they would discount the advice they didn't't like as being from bitter people.

Whether you would get fairer advice if you were non gender specific in your thread set up? The advice would be different and varied as posters here are different and varied

Whether different sexes should get differing advice? every situation is different. Sometimes a person's sexuality/ gender makes the advice they need different

Are some people too bitter to give a fair assessment? sure, some people might be but that dosn't mean all the people who give the same advice are doing so because they are bitter.

Does that help at all?

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:54:52

Beer - The sad fact is that a fair proportion of men who arrive on MN expect bells and whistles and bunting to herald their arrival

That is more gender based than what I am asking. I've asked about gender bias is helpful. This question isn't attacking its just asking if its helpful?

Treen44444 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:58:51

Duelling- that's your answer. One of the most helpful answers. Would you expect the same response from a conservative predominant website, or Muslim website? And therefore unable to make an overall judgement or overall perception of that forum?

FrancescaBell Sat 14-Sep-13 00:00:58

Best not to feed this one until MNHQ investigates.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:01:08

Sorry poor examples

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:02:07

Fran - investigated what?

DuelingFanjo Sat 14-Sep-13 00:02:11

I think you are wrong to compare gender and religious fundamentalism.

In general (and I have been on MN for about 6 years --holy shit I really am getting old--) the responses posters get depend on what they post. A lot of the time someone posting about a partner's upsetting or annoying behaviour is asked for more information. An awful lot of the time 'reverse' OPs are spotted because someone pretending to be the 'bad person' can't back it up with proper reasoning. Also, people posting about their partners' 'unreasonableness' when it's something that comes across as really peculiar or unexpected may get asked for clarification and then the backstory comes out...

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:04:14

I said bad examples. I wouldnt compare all Muslims to fundamentalists either though

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:05:28

Solid - I agree. They may get asked

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 00:06:21

biscuit

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 00:06:30

biscuit

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HarderToKidnap Sat 14-Sep-13 00:08:37

I agree. I had to stop reading the relationship board because I found it became extremely grating. Here was one thread which shocked me to the core in the reaction it got, a female poster saying she didn't get enough sex. The responses were awful about her poor husband and yet men posting in the same topic invariably get told they aren't doing enough housework or whatever.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 00:10:11
Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:11:19

Beer - I've not spoken about research? I've set up a discussion topic. Not good or bad, just a discussion. Some people enjoy the bias. Some see it and don't mind. Some see it and aren't keen. Some don't see it at all.

What is your view? Is there any? Is it good, bad or neither?

DuelingFanjo Sat 14-Sep-13 00:12:58

Oh, I remember a recent thread where a poster was upset about the sex he wasn't getting. Turned out he was getting it at least once a week even though his wife wasn't that keen on it. The difference between what he posted in his OP and what was actually happening was remarkable.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:13:48

Dark eyes - isn't that link more obvious if you think marriage shouldn't be cheated on? What would the response be if it was a man? We can't know, but do you think the same?

FrancescaBell Sat 14-Sep-13 00:14:55

Oh not again.

Look I've got no intention of coming back to this pile of wank after this post, but please STOP linking some poor woman's support thread on this one. It's just not fair. Her thread already makes no bloody sense with all the deletions and she abandoned it over a week ago because it got hijacked. Let's not add to the offence eh?

ModeratelyObvious Sat 14-Sep-13 00:15:32

I notice the BJ thread was posted by either a Namechanger or a new poster.

OP, all forums have demographics, norms etc.MN is predominantly female and that probably won't change. Does it matter?

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:15:51

Duelling - what was a actually happening?

DuelingFanjo Sat 14-Sep-13 00:15:55

Inclined to think Frabcescabell is absolutely correct.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:21:49

Moderate - it doesn't matter at all. I'm just observing and think it may bias, I have done it, and may affect relationships and kids. It may end ones that need ending which is great. However, if the playing field is skewed it may affect impressionable people or put unnecessary doubt in people's minds

ModeratelyObvious Sat 14-Sep-13 00:25:26

But in comparison to what, Treen?

I don't think there's any forum where men and women equally give advice on relationships.

And women who post here know that mainly women will respond and presumably are seeking that.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:29:04

Moderate - it's not about equal numbers of men and women posting. It's about trying to leave your gender out of your posts. So a scenario merits a response. Not a response depending on where the genders fall within it.

Anniegetyourgun Sat 14-Sep-13 00:29:53

Look, if someone leaves a perfectly good relationship just because a bunch of internet strangers told them to, they've got more problems than their choice of forum.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 00:30:50

Treen what im saying is there is NO bias. Men and women are mostly treated the same on here from what ive seen
There was a woman who posted a thread a while back "I dont want sex how can i keep my husband" and she got bloody roasted on here.

I was also accused of hijacking the linked thread even though
a. i had experienced the same thing as the OP.
b. i wasnt the one who brought up prostitutes and paying for sex.

Ergo......wheres the bias?

ChangingWoman Sat 14-Sep-13 00:34:17

"However, if the playing field is skewed it may affect impressionable people or put unnecessary doubt in people's minds"

That's life for you really, one big skewed playing fiel (and not one skewed in favour of women).

Adults can live with doubts and learn from them, necessary or unnecessary. They don't need to be protected from doubt. We all have to learn to exercise our own judgment.

Impressionable people? Do you mean children? People with learning disabilities? Or people competent and adult enough to sign up to MN and post comprehensibly under the relationships topic?

This particular statement is more than slightly patronising to those who post here for advice.

ModeratelyObvious Sat 14-Sep-13 00:35:15

But we all post as ourselves, and we are all made up of class, gender, race, iq, experience, whatever whatever. How can any one element be left out?

Anniegetyourgun Sat 14-Sep-13 00:35:55

I have no intention of leaving my gender out of my posts. I will assess the evidence as fairly as I can, and give as unbiased an opinion as I'm capable of, but at the end of the day I am who I am, I have had the experiences I have had, and that will make a difference to the advice I give - not always in a bad way. The great advantage of a high volume site like this is that there will be a whole load of other viewpoints from all sorts of different people with different personalities and experiences - including quite a few men - so that the OP has many opinions and perspectives to draw on. More female ones, sure. But then, for a female OP, female experiences are more likely to be relevant and (hopefully) sympathetic because we've been there.

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 00:37:51

annie that's an excellent point indeed.

I think if "deep down" a woman wants to keep her husband, there's no way she'll listen to anything anyone says about leaving him.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 00:46:42

Darkeyes - I agree it's what posts you read. I think the ones you use are more clear cut with supposed social 'morals'. The one you linked, you said was 50/50ish. I think it was only that way because of a bias. To claim there is no bias because men and women are mostly treated equally is not what I'd do.

Changing - it could be all of those people. You must remember there are readers too. To assume adults can't be impressionable is wrong. It happens all over the world. From people trafficking to advertising

DuelingFanjo Sat 14-Sep-13 00:51:32

What exactly do you think the women of mumsnet are persuading people to do?

ChangingWoman Sat 14-Sep-13 00:57:55

OP has now made me laugh out loud.

Let's censor the whole internet in case someone "impressionable" comes across something which gives them "unnecessary doubt".... Be careful when handling MN advice as its influence is comparable to the coercion and violence exerted by those who traffick human beings!

OP - did you know that you do have a choice about how you respond to advertising?

Harmful advice on Relationships is usually shouted down by the majority of others replying to a thread.

Initially I thought this was just a silly thread. It's a very, very silly thread.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 00:57:55

Treen are you suggesting that MN should be censored in some way.

If you want to see bias you could do worse than pop over to MSE and look at their forums.
The way some of the male posters on there talk about women is appalling I left MSE two years ago for that and the fact that they are far right wing.
I even saw posts by men laughing about financially abusing their wives. Bloody disgraceful.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 00:58:00

Treen are you suggesting that MN should be censored in some way.

If you want to see bias you could do worse than pop over to MSE and look at their forums.
The way some of the male posters on there talk about women is appalling I left MSE two years ago for that and the fact that they are far right wing.
I even saw posts by men laughing about financially abusing their wives. Bloody disgraceful.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:04:45

Duelling - not persuading anyone. I'm an MNer. I was simply putting up a topic based upon what I have read. It turns out a fair number of people have seen a bias on here. I think the bias comes when interpreting the '50/50' scenarios, for want of a better word. And therefore skews the advise. In my opinion this could be unhelpful to some families.
I've found myself giving a lot of examples of bias and a stance to that affect because I am the OP.
I'll say again, I love MN. It's great. I saw areas of double standards linked to gender and i thought I'd set up a thread. It was not attacking, it was to discuss.
Ultimately a counsellor will try and leave their own gender out of their advice( I'm not saying this is professional advise) but there maybe a reason for that.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:06:55

Changing - it's more to do with the range of advice not the level of advice.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:09:52

Changing - the advertising was to counter your claim that adults can not be impressionable.
Do you assume an impressionable adult trafficked woman couldn't start a thread on MN. I don't get it

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:11:43

Darkesteyes - you are seeing it as tit for tat, because both sides are doing it doesn't make it good in my opinion

ChangingWoman Sat 14-Sep-13 01:20:17

You're not following a logical line of argument or making sense generally.

Your leaps of tenuous association, misreading (or wilful misunderstanding) of pps, and bizarre comparisons are undermining any points you genuinely want to make.

Overall this thread is a load of nonsense which I shall now leave to others who have had a few Friday night drinks.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 01:24:25

Seeing what as tit for tat Im with Changing on this I cant follow you at all confused

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:26:08

grin ok. Night change

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 01:27:00

wine darkest seconded.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:27:24

Dark -If you want to see bias you could do worse than pop over to MSE and look at their forums.
The way some of the male posters on there talk about women is appalling I left MSE two years ago for that and the fact that they are far right wing.
I even saw posts by men laughing about financially abusing their wives. Bloody disgraceful.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:28:11

Is that tit for tat?

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 01:28:19

ps I actually find this thread rather creepy - it's like the boy at school who wanted to come and join in on the girls only conversations.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:30:38

Lurks - grin I think she's a she

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 01:30:51

Its not tit for tat Its my experience of using their forums Im starting to feel like im being gaslighted a bit.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:40:41

Dark - I'm not doing that. You said you couldn't follow so I pasted what you had written. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't happen, or why bias happens, I'm saying that it may not be helpful in the moderate threads and it may twist these threads in an irrational way.
Go back to the bigger question. Do you personally think there is bias? Do you think it narrows the response? Do you think it twists responses for the better or worse?
Do you see bias on a predominantly men forum helpful?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 14-Sep-13 01:41:09

Treenie's joining up coincided with a couple of MRA types from reddit posting on an FWR thread. Their posts were as nonsensical on that thread too.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 14-Sep-13 01:41:29

Best ignored.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:42:25

Sab - what are you suggesting?

Oh this is really just another wah! Waaah! Women are not automatically treating men as their superiors. Women are ignoring men! The sky will fall in! type thread.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 01:43:35

And repeat.

DarkesteyesSat 14-Sep-13 00:30:50

Treen what im saying is there is NO bias. Men and women are mostly treated the same on here from what ive seen
There was a woman who posted a thread a while back "I dont want sex how can i keep my husband" and she got bloody roasted on here.

I was also accused of hijacking the linked thread even though
a. i had experienced the same thing as the OP.
b. i wasnt the one who brought up prostitutes and paying for sex.

Ergo......wheres the bias?

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:45:31

Solid - read the thread. It's not that. If you think it is then it pretty much backs up my position

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 01:46:43

Just been in mse for first time in AGGEEEESSSSS.

Here is an old thread I think it was the first one i posted on on there.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2690837&highlight=is+this+miserly+or+just+moneysaving

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 01:47:45

And how does this back up your position Treen.

There was a woman who posted a thread a while back "I dont want sex how can i keep my husband" and she got bloody roasted on here.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:48:27

Dark - that's fine. It's a discussion. I'm not trying to convince you. I said my observations. You say there is no bias. Great

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:52:07

Dark - it wouldn't if the genders were reversed and the responses were the same. I was saying to solid that their post backed it up

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:53:41

Do you think the response you got mse was wrong? Or do you think it gives you licence?

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 01:54:57

Dark - was the woman that didn't want sex called abusive?

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 02:03:13

Sabrina Mulholland was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT Hiding thread.

Darkesteyes Sat 14-Sep-13 02:04:03

Oh and just before i do You are a gaslighter OP Just so you know!

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 02:05:04

Don't answer the questions if you don't want to.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 02:09:21

Dark - what is troubling you about the conversation and the topic? I apologise if you ar offended. I don't see why though. I think we disagree.
I'll ask back on thread,
Do you think there is or isn't a bias? And is bad, good, helpful, unhelpful?

comingintomyown Sat 14-Sep-13 06:37:22

You are so a man no way would a woman write like this

Offred Sat 14-Sep-13 07:26:08

" Note: Mumsnetters don't necessarily have the qualifications or experience to offer relationships counselling or to provide help in cases of domestic violence. Mumsnet can't be held responsible for any advice given on the site. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support."
Did you read this treen?

Why on earth you think this is even vaguely appropriate on the relationships topic I don't know.

This should be in site stuff.

The fact it is in relationships betrays it's true purpose is to undermine support.

I don't need to link to threads btw because I am responding with my opinion to your thread. You however have repeatedly stated (incoherent) opinions as though they are facts. You need to understand that you are making damaging accusations which seek to undermine the support vulnerable women get on here.

If you don't think it is all that important and you are just casually making a point I would expect you ODFOD.

Offred Sat 14-Sep-13 07:36:14

Oh and I remember you you were the one who helpfully posted "have you put on weight?" On a thread about lack of sex...

It appears the rest of your MN career has been meddling in feminism...

Suspicious ain't it that you seem to consistently target areas of MN which threaten male supremacy...

If not a man then definitely a MRA <gavel>

mammadiggingdeep Sat 14-Sep-13 07:38:55

Treen....haven't read the whole (rather tedious) thread but are you a man?? Are you relatively new to mn? Have you ever posted for advice on relationships board? Have you ever used another name???

Offred Sat 14-Sep-13 07:41:47

And seriously who are you to set themselves up as arbiter of what is OK on MN?

That one comment you made "have you put on weight?" Is one of the worst and most damaging things I've read on here.

You have been around on here for how long? A week?

I've been here around 5 years under various names. You haven't had long enough to form a valid opinion. You're just a trouble maker hoping to fly under the radar by being subtle and passive aggressive.

MatildaWhispers Sat 14-Sep-13 08:23:42

Haven't read all replies, but Treen are you someone who thinks that women have achieved equality with men now?

Can you imagine being so distraught about your own relationship that you end up posting about it on the internet to a bunch of strangers? Can you appreciate that if you were in an abusive relationship you may have already considered your partner's feelings and perspective, far more than you should have to the extent that you lose sight of yourself and what you need? In situations like that this forum is so useful in having a female bias. It's very much needed.

Boomba Sat 14-Sep-13 08:56:03

This thread needs to be moved out of the relationship section

Boomba Sat 14-Sep-13 09:02:23

I interested to understand why you started this thread?

do you think replies should be moderated, so they are not gender biased? Do you want your POV affirmed? Are you looking to have your mind changed?

thousands of people use MN. If you don't like a site its usual just to go find one that you do

most importantly, why do you think this thread is appropriate in this location?

DuelingFanjo Sat 14-Sep-13 09:06:15

Well, just wow. I went to sleep and then woke up to a thread that has become even more nonsensical and inconsistent.

It is not gender that informs responses it is experience. To suggest that one gender will react to similar experience in the same way is stupid.

happyhev Sat 14-Sep-13 11:31:35

I find it really interesting that men who post on MN pretending to be women have a really distinctive writing style. They try to appear really reasonable often beginning posts with 'I agree' or 'good point', but then disagreeing or making it clear they don't think it's a good point at all. If they were speaking in real life you just know they would be talking really slowly. The other thing they seem to do is structure their sentences and use vocabulary to try and make themselves appear intelligent and educated. This for me is the real give away, because an intelligent educated women would never hold the incoherent views that these characters profess.

mammadiggingdeep Sat 14-Sep-13 12:33:40

Yes happyhev!!! Totally agree that men pretending to be women posters have a particular writing style. I've noticed it on more than one occasion. The more they write, the more you get an inkling it's a male poster. Call it women's intuition ;)

BadLad Sat 14-Sep-13 13:01:32

I've had helpful advice on here when I have started threads. There are a couple of posts which seemd unnecessarily rude, such as the one in this thread which says "You're a real charmer, aren't you?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1632122-AIBU-to-refuse-to-babysit

But they are in the minority - mostly are helpful, even if disagreeing. What is annoying is those who don't take the OP at face value, and say things along the lines of "I think you just don't want to do it", but I haven't noticed any gender bias in that, and have seen similar all over the board.

I was also surprised on this thread to have it suggested that my wife might be afraid to talk to me, and hence have to do it in a public place. But since then, I have read other threads where that does indeed seem to be the case, so I can understand someone asking it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1572573-Stunned-by-DW-sorry-long

I actually found the comments very helpful, and didn't feel that anyone would have said anything different if it had been a woman posting.

The main bias I do see on here, or maybe it's just me, is that men's posts, unless outrageous, are less likely to be remarked on than women's. Not always, just a bit less likely. But that's understandable - people post on here with the expectation that they will get women replying to them, so it doesn't bother me if nobody notices my piping up.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 13:06:12

Im not trying to argue anything here! Just an observation, you may observe it differently? I'm not saying whether advise is better or worse if gender bias is involved. I have also observed that they try and leave it out in counselling or court. (Even though, we are a long way from equality).
Some of my view points have been responses to questions, so at times shaped.
I think the fact that I have been called abusive,'gaslighter' and not a woman( which does offend me), because I hold a different opinion or observation completely emphasises how a bias can be involved. How these reactions can manifest and narrow a discussion. Being thought of as suspicious or an abuser for have a differing opinion isn't something I would advocate

Boomba Sat 14-Sep-13 13:22:40

And why did you feel it appropriate to start the thread in the Relationship section?

YoniBottsBumgina Sat 14-Sep-13 13:24:14

I have not read the whole thread.

But you give examples where we hear the woman's side. We can only give advice to the woman - it's not like her husband is sitting there too and both parties can have equal advice.

It's pretty standard human sympathy, isn't it, to take the side of the person who you are speaking to and say "Oh you poor thing, that person is behaving so horribly to you". Also what would be the point of saying "Well your behaviour is really awful and out of order. No wonder he's behaving like this." That just makes someone defensive. (Although actually, to be fair, I have seen threads that go this way too but rarely.)

On your EA example, the end result advice for both is the same: Leave the relationship. It isn't working.

Also you cannot ignore the gendered aspect of domestic abuse. Yes, female-on-male abuse does happen, but much more common is male-on-female abuse. Plus as a veteran of the boards and an abuse survivor, you can see it between the lines. It stands out a mile in the way somebody speaks about their partner. Not even the actual abusive acts described sometimes, but the little things or comments about incidents. It's just a mindset thing that you grow to recognise.

ChangingWoman Sat 14-Sep-13 13:28:55

Badlad you're looking at AIBU posts. This is Relationships. AIBU is more a jokey discussion section of MN.

If this thread is meant to be broader than Relationships then probably better in Site Stuff or similar as a pp suggested.

At best, it's a nonsense here.

Treen44444 Sat 14-Sep-13 13:28:58

Boomba - probably the wrong section, I put it here because I was commenting about this section.

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 18:52:57

happyhev

love that observation...

Yeah, I think its that air of "I'm so polite" combined with shite pseudo intellectual arguments that miss the point....

Like when you see a guys online dating ad and its got loads of very weird weak/angry/defensive statements.

Combined with random crap about "Of course I don't mean to be offensive" and random creepy smiley faces. At least man up and have the balls to acknowledge your hostility.

Erm sorry love your weird passive aggressive vibe has been noted, and that's why you're the kind of dude where the women you want turn you down/make polite excuses, which is why you end up passive aggressive...

And so the circle continues......hmm

FrancescaBell Sat 14-Sep-13 19:00:44

Interesting MNHQ message on the (now deleted) Blow Job thread mentioned by Treen in his OP:

Message from MNHQ: OP not genuine.

lurkinglorna Sat 14-Sep-13 19:06:19

I don't even know what these men's point is? confused Apart from getting attention.

What so loads of "impressionable" grin women are gonna read their shite posts and think "oh that's me told then, I clearly have to settle for weird men like that and be grateful"

Time it takes to scour the Net and compose this shite they could get a gym session in or do something that develops their sense of self which would actually make them more appealing.

ModeratelyObvious Sat 14-Sep-13 19:07:18

Thanks Fran. Quelle surprise.

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