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Dh keeps doing something I don't like in bed

(561 Posts)
Moochicken Mon 02-Sep-13 22:10:43

Without wanting to go into too much detail, dh keeps doing something during sex which I don't like. I ask him not to and after a few minutes he does it anyway.

It doesn't happen every time but he did it again last night. He apologized after and said he won't do it again (he says this everytime) and now he can't understand why I'm still pissed off.

How seriously would you take this? If I said no and stopped sex he would listen and would never force me to do something but I still feel uncomfortable that he basically ignores my wishes.

Deal breaker for me.

What is it that he does though? I have to tell DH to leave my nipples alone on occasion, but that's because of BFing.

If he ignored me, he'd be getting nothing more than sleep at bedtime.

TheBreastmilksOnMe Mon 02-Sep-13 22:13:25

You have to tell us what it is! He sounds very inconsiderate and selfish to keep doing something he clearly knows you don't like. I would ban sex until he got the message.

Tailz Mon 02-Sep-13 22:14:57

Nope, I wouldn't be happy at all. He's being disrespectful and a knob
It's pathetic behaviour, immature and he simply doesn't sound v nice

Xales Mon 02-Sep-13 22:16:44

Get out of bed and stop the sex. Every time he does it. Tell him it puts you off and ruins your enjoyment so you do not want to continue.

ShatnersBassoon Mon 02-Sep-13 22:17:10

Stop sex and insist that he stops it if you think that will do the trick, and remind him every time you have sex that he must not do that thing or it will upset you.

It sounds very unpleasant and selfish.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Mon 02-Sep-13 22:17:17

What is he doing?

BitBewildered Mon 02-Sep-13 22:17:19

Is it something he does to you or to himself?

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 22:17:30

Total dealbreaker for me. Trust is fundamental in a relationship and you can't trust someone who just does what he likes to your body against your wishes. In fact depending on what it actually is it could amount to sexual abuse.

Yawner247 Mon 02-Sep-13 22:17:58

Another one requesting you to spill the beans...what is he upto?! I would be pissed off and sex would be off the menu until he had managed to restrain himself!

Madlizzy Mon 02-Sep-13 22:18:52

Stop the sex. Say "I asked you not to do that as I don't like it, and you haven't listened again. I will not have sex if you insist on doing something that I don't like, and you could actually damage our relationship"

MaryLovesDick Mon 02-Sep-13 22:19:27

You've told him once and that should be enough. Tell him if he does it again, he's getting nothing.

It's completely disrespectful and is a huge turn off. It's not how you treat someone you love in my books.

ageofgrandillusion Mon 02-Sep-13 22:19:28

Spill the beans OP.

saintmerryweather Mon 02-Sep-13 22:19:45

my ex used to do stuff like this. id tell him to stop but he wouldnt think.i was serious, or he liked to do it so he would wait a while then try again. dont.put up with it and be as insistent as you need to be that it has to stop

LazyMonkeyButler Mon 02-Sep-13 22:19:51

Unless it's something like pulling an off-putting face (which may be involuntary) I simply wouldn't be having sex with him!

P.S. What is it?

CoffeeandScones Mon 02-Sep-13 22:20:06

Does it matter what it is? If the OP doesn't like it, then that's enough.

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Mon 02-Sep-13 22:21:42

I'd make sure he knew how seriously I disliked it by stopping 'it' when he started to do it.

I think he'd soon get the message how much you didn't like it then, no? smile

ShatnersBassoon Mon 02-Sep-13 22:22:05

Yes, we do need to know how invasive the thing is really, to decide if it's a dealbreaker.

chattychattyboomba Mon 02-Sep-13 22:22:45

Need to know what he does.i'll start- Mine tweaks my nipples. It makes me angry!!! I actually feel like punching him when he does it (let alone continuing sex) but he says 'oops sorry' straight away and I think it is genuinely an impulse and he doesn't know he's doing it (which says how much he is 'present' and worried about my own bloody enjoyment!) but this is not about me... Just wanted you to know you're not alone

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 22:23:28

It does matter coffee. Annoying grunting = icky and offputting but not major. Repeatedly attempting something like anal against the op's wishes= total disrespect bordering on criminal.

ShatnersBassoon Mon 02-Sep-13 22:23:38

It might be an odd noise, which would be forgivable.

thenightsky Mon 02-Sep-13 22:23:57

I've dumped exes for this. You shouldn't have to put up with it OP.

Moochicken Mon 02-Sep-13 22:23:58

He likes putting his finger in my bum. I don't enjoy it and find it quite a turn off. Not because I think its wrong or anything, I just don't think it feels very nice.

He's really into the idea of anal sex too but it really doesn't appeal so (apart from one drunken night when I thought I'd give it a try- unsuccessfully) I've always said no.

thenightsky Mon 02-Sep-13 22:26:12

See I knew this is what you were going to say OP. Like I said, I've dumped for this very offence. Instant turn off!

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 22:26:46

Dealbreaker then. He's consciously and repeatedly stepping over a very clear boundary.

perfectstorm Mon 02-Sep-13 22:27:16

Think it depends, as has been said. If it's a groan or nightmare face, which as has been said may be involuntary, then I'd accept it. If he said stuff I didn't like it would depend on how and why it offended me - pet names might be a turnoff, misogynist dirty talk and he'd be on the sofa.

If he's doing something to your body with his you don't like then I would hit the freaking roof. That's a disgusting attitude to have during sex. The other person's body is not your property. You're a guest. And I would kick him out that second, each and every time, personally until he got the idea that his actions = end to sex.

Apart from anything else, the selfishness is staggering. It's like your pleasure is an irrelevance if it's a chosen action.

Oh that's very out of order.

ShatnersBassoon Mon 02-Sep-13 22:28:13

That's an awful thing to do against your wishes. He should be deeply ashamed of his behaviour, not carrying on regardless.

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 22:28:47

I've had it happen too op. Same guy raped me eventually (not anally just to be clear). Someone who ignores boundaries like this can't be trusted.

ageofgrandillusion Mon 02-Sep-13 22:28:56

LT filthy B.

perfectstorm Mon 02-Sep-13 22:29:48

Just refreshed. That's fucking appalling, I'm sorry but it's worse than I was imagining (I was assuming he grabbed your head and tried to thrust during a BJ or something - still bad, but could be semi-involuntary). You've said no and he violates your body knowing he's doing it without your consent? Does he know that's a crime?

Moochicken Mon 02-Sep-13 22:30:13

It's not something I would leave him over but I think I do need to lay down the law. I think part of the problem is that we don't have sex as often as we used to as we have 2 young children and I'm always knackered from getting up in the night with the baby. He has a much higher sex drive than me and we fall out over it quite a lot.

BitBewildered Mon 02-Sep-13 22:30:21

Yes, that's very bad because he is violating your body and you've told him not to, so he knows you don't consent.

When he's asleep I'd shove a carrot up his arse

And then promise faithfully not to do it again

LoisPuddingLane Mon 02-Sep-13 22:30:41

I don't understand the (mainly) male obsession with bum holes. You've got a perfectly nice and functional hole up the front and what do they want? To stick things up what is technically a one way street.

ZeroTolerance Mon 02-Sep-13 22:30:54

I knew that's what it would be.

He is violating you. A finger in your bum is not so very different from a penis in your vagina - if he did the latter after you'd said no, it'd be rape.

MissMarplesBloomers Mon 02-Sep-13 22:31:23

Slap or knee him in the balls, and ask him when he asks why if having that done repeatedly is acceptable.

Repeat till he stops.

GetStuffezd Mon 02-Sep-13 22:31:36

OP this is totally unacceptable and shows clearly your partner doesn't give a toss about you or your pleasure.

This is horrible but I promise it happened a few years ago - I had an ex (who co-incidentally I've just mentioned on another thread!) who constantly did this to me and ALWAYS went on about anal sex.

One night when we were DTD and he was drunk he forced his penis into my anus unexpectedly and I have never felt pain like it. I was bleeding well into the next day. Due to being utterly messed up and emotionally abused, I was all over the place the next day, believing I'd done something wrong, etc etc. I HATE the fact I could have avoided this if I'd dumped him sooner.
Please don't let him keep doing this to you.

MaryLovesDick Mon 02-Sep-13 22:32:11

I think that is a total abuse of your trust and your body and I would tell him to get to fuck.

Can you honestly say you still find him attractive sexually or emotionally after he has repeatedly done that? He knows you don't like it and still he continues. Eugh.

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Mon 02-Sep-13 22:33:41

Next time you are moving towards having sex, tell him beforehand that he absolutely must not do it this time and it is a major thing for you if he does. If he complains you've spoilt the mood or whatever, you can point out that his 'habit' does exactly that for you. And yes, as others have said, definitely stop immediately if it does happen and a halt to the sex life for the foreseeable future.

BitBewildered Mon 02-Sep-13 22:33:42

So his way of helping you to enjoy the sex you do have is to do something to you that he knows you hate? What a cock.

LoisPuddingLane Mon 02-Sep-13 22:33:44

Part of the problem is they see it on porn, where EVERY woman has a willing and open sphincter and apparently doesn't even need lube. It seems to give them the idea that all women want this. Some women do. But if you don't and you say you don't, he should bloody leave off.

givemeaboost Mon 02-Sep-13 22:35:19

oooh moo, I have an ex who did that. I disliked also but luckily he only tried it a few times.

GetStuffezd Mon 02-Sep-13 22:35:30

Part of the problem is they see it on porn, where EVERY woman has a willing and open sphincter and apparently doesn't even need lube. It seems to give them the idea that all women want this
Absolutely this.

perfectstorm Mon 02-Sep-13 22:36:56

I think part of the problem is that we don't have sex as often as we used to

Bollocks. Sorry, but bollocks. That's you taking responsibility for his choice to sexually assault his wife.

You have said no. He is penetrating your body knowing that you have said no and knowing he is doing it without consent and against your expressed wishes. That's a criminal offence. It's a very big deal. Please don't try to make out it's your fault - if he raped you and then argued he had a high sex drive and you were tired and didn't want sex much, would you think that was a legitimate argument?

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Mon 02-Sep-13 22:37:12

Some people like that kind of thing but you don't, so he has to respect that.

Like I said previously whenever he does it grab his hand, stand up from the bed and go into the bathroom. Take a few minutes, come back in and refuse to continue.

He will get the message if you do this every time religiously.

He probably thinks you are saying no as a joke. Not that it makes it right, but he's not using his brain in any which way and analysing how you are responding. Make him do so by what I mentioned above.

Helltotheno Mon 02-Sep-13 22:37:36

Save yourself years of grief OP: dump him tomorrow.

Moochicken Mon 02-Sep-13 22:38:01

I might just show him this thread and then he can see that I'm not overreacting.

The problem is that I want him to stop doing it but I don't want to make it into a huge problem. I love him and enjoy sex with him the rest of the time.

VenusRising Mon 02-Sep-13 22:38:03

Do you know that that is sexual assault?
You could go to the police and have him arrested, and charged.

Do tell him that.

So sorry you are with this dick.

Give your local rape crisis centre a ring if you need to talk to someone who is there to listen just to you.

hugoagogo Mon 02-Sep-13 22:38:06

eek no! I would shoot up the bed and ask him what the fuck he was doing?

Please don't be subtle with him.

perfectstorm Mon 02-Sep-13 22:39:30

Assault by Penetration

For this offence to be committed, 4 elements must be present:
A person intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person with a part of his body or anything else;
The penetration is sexual;
The other person does not consent to the penetration;
The first person does not reasonably believe that the second person consents.
Assault by penetration is an indictable-only offence, meaning that it can only be tried in the Crown Court. The maximum sentence if found guilty is life imprisonment.

Seriously. It's a crime.

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Mon 02-Sep-13 22:39:51

To be honest OP if he does it every time you have sex then you aren't normally enjoying sex.

I know you may not want to make a big issue out of it but if you aren't enjoying it and it's making you uncomfortable and it's only he who enjoys it then it really is a big problem, isn't it?

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 22:40:43

Genuine question: why do you think your "no" isn't enoughto stop him?

GetStuffezd Mon 02-Sep-13 22:41:36

I love him and enjoy sex with him the rest of the time.
That's absolutely fair enough. But what's so crashingly wrong is that you don't seem to be able to firmly take ownership of your own body and put an instant end to this. Why's he done it more than once?

Fancies40Winks Mon 02-Sep-13 22:43:38

perfectstorm is dead right. This is a crime, a serious one, which under these circumstances gets a minimum of 2 years in prison. Why does he keep repeatedly assaulting you? Is he this abusive in other areas? Tell him the next time he does it you'll be reporting him to the police. Arrest, court, prison and being on the sex offenders register might put him off.

Fairenuff Mon 02-Sep-13 22:44:44

I'm concerned about why you don't want to make a big deal of it?

I don't understand.

It is a big deal, it is sexual assault.

If you can't face 'the talk' then, yes, show him this thread, but why can't you talk about it?

(PS don't show him the thread if you don't want him to know your user name or see your other posts)

Fairenuff Mon 02-Sep-13 22:46:32

Also, you say that if you asked him to stop, mid sex, he would. So, when he does this, why not just tell him to stop the sex altogether?

Is it because you don't really think he would stop?

I was just about to respond to the comment about not making a big deal,but read Fairenuff's post above and it says it all. To reiterate - it IS a big deal.

thenightsky Mon 02-Sep-13 22:48:59

This very act killed my love for my ex eventually. He was forever trying to sneak a finger up there hmm In the end I used to just leap off the bed and tell him he'd killed the mood.

Xales Mon 02-Sep-13 22:49:46

It is a big deal and it is affecting you and your relationship or you wouldn't be posting about it.

How much love and respect do you have and how long will it last for a man who continues to violate your body for control or his pleasure (and this is what it is as you have said you don't like it on multiple occasions) against your will.

Doinmummy Mon 02-Sep-13 22:53:27

Is this a new thing or has he only recently tried it? I'd want to know ( if it is only recent) where he's got the idea from.

Doinmummy Mon 02-Sep-13 22:54:26

Sorry I meant to ask has he always tried it or is it just a recent thing

fuzzpig Mon 02-Sep-13 22:54:59

He's penetrating you without your consent. It IS a big deal. If he was forcing you into anal sex it would presumably be more clear cut, but please don't belittle what he's doing just because it's his finger rather than his dick. As perfectstorm said it is a serious offence.

He is complaining about lack of sex (at least that's how I'm interpreting your post) and yet he repeatedly does something you don't like hmm twat.

OlympicSleepingChampion Mon 02-Sep-13 22:56:09

As others have said it is a huge deal and is assault.

But have you spoken to him about it in the cold light of day? Although 'no' should absolutely be enough just after you've had sex and he's tried and been re-buffed is he stupid enough to think that you just weren't in the mood 'that time' so that he keeps on trying his luck hoping that the next time you'll like it?

If not you really need to sit him down and spell it out so he is in absolutely no doubt how his actions make you feel. And that if he carries on this way he is very likely to turn you off having sex with him completely. Or of course report him for sexual assault.

fuzzpig Mon 02-Sep-13 22:57:11

(I meant clear cut to you personally btw, ie you'd be more confident that it was wrong, sorry if my post didn't make sense)

OP, are you afraid that if you tell him to stop, he will continue assaulting you? Or that he is going to progress to raping you fairly soon? I'm sorry but if you fear these things, you are not wrong. He's displaying a rapist mindset - that what you want doesn't matter, and what he wants is far more important, and that your resistance is there to be worn down.

scallopsrgreat Mon 02-Sep-13 23:01:09

Really I wouldn't show him this thread. He'll wriggle out of it somehow, whilst being completely disparaging to you (and us).

As CailinDana implied, your no should be enough. The fact that it isn't is very very worrying.

I'm also worried by your minimising of it and the fact it isn't a deal breaker. This isn't a misunderstanding, this is him violating your bodily integrity. A crime. And also, I found out tonight, a civil liberty.

Have a look at the rest of your relationship and see if he respects you and your decisions in other areas, even if he doesn't agree with them.

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 23:05:31

SGB is bang on unfortunately. What he's hoping is that eventually you'll stop telling him not to do it, then he'll progress to two fingers with the ultimate aim of having anal sex. My ex had overstepped so many boundaries it actually took me quite a while to realise he'd raped me.

CailinDana Mon 02-Sep-13 23:09:08

The really insidious thing is that when you finally stop saying no because it clearly makes no difference he can reassure himself that of course it wasn't rape because you didn't say no.

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Mon 02-Sep-13 23:11:52

It is him making this a big deal, by the way, not you. Because if he had done it once, you'd said you didn't like it and then it had not happened again, that would be something you could move on from. The fact that he's done it repeatedly and has taken no notice of you is what makes it a big deal.

Shapechanger Tue 03-Sep-13 00:05:33

what's so crashingly wrong is that you don't seem to be able to firmly take ownership of your own body and put an instant end to this. Why's he done it more than once?

^^
this

Fairylea Tue 03-Sep-13 00:11:08

Totally unacceptable.

Next time he tries it simply coldly get out of bed and go and sleep elsewhere. Or ask him to. Tell him it is assault and you will prosecute if he does it again.

Don't continue having sex with him!!

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 00:13:02

Why aren't you angrier ?

he is sexually assaulting you, repeatedly

if the greengrocer inserted his finger in your arsehole over the lettuces, there would be hell to pay

it makes no difference that you are already having sex with your partner...he should not be doing something you have explicitly never given consent for

stemstitch Tue 03-Sep-13 00:13:34

I had this exact same problem with an ex, and I'm afraid to say it did end up with him raping me. Except, I was unable to see that he had raped me because he had successfully broken down my boundaries. I posted about it on here and was shown the light...

Sunnysummer Tue 03-Sep-13 00:16:05

Repeatedly attempting to penetrate you without permission is not just overstepping boundaries or being offputting, it's rape. Is this behaviour indicative of the way he treats you more generally? I

OhDearNigel Tue 03-Sep-13 00:21:06

Technically he is committing the offence of sexual assault by penetration. Maybe you would like to mention that to him next time his "finger slips"

Or just keep doing something he dislikes over and over again until he gets the message.

TheSilverySoothsayer Tue 03-Sep-13 00:22:33

It might be his way of trying to tell you that's what he wants you to do to him. Just saying. I agree you should not do or have done to you anything you do not want.

BOF Tue 03-Sep-13 00:22:53

You have to tell him VERY VERY CLEARLY that you hate this, and if he 'forgets' or thinks he can wheedle you into it, it's totally not going to happen. All bets are off. Sex stops.

Of course he should respect what he knows already, which is that you don't want this, but from wishful thinking, I bet he's kidding himself that in the heat of the moment you will go along with it.

Unless he is disrespectful in other ways, I would cut him some slack, but draw your line in the sand and make sure that he has no room to think that you might like it if you would only give it a chance etc.

Tell him firmly outside of a sexual situation that you are very definite about this, and let him know that he's out on his arse if it happens again.

Shapechanger Tue 03-Sep-13 00:26:55

It's not even that OP hasn't explicitly given consent for...she's asked him not to do it. It sucks that he's continued and would be a dealbreaker for me, absolutely.

And echo everything that's been said about porn, completely normalises anal sex, something that many women find repellent and given their feelings rightly refuse, or don't enjoy/find painful but provide as a sexual service to please their men.

Twenty or thirty years ago oral sex used to be joked about as something men wanted and got on their birthdays. Now they is not just mainstream but a given. But actually giving a bj isn't unenjoyable, and a woman can be in control. Not a problem, and we expect them to do the equivalent anyway.

But anal sex is all about power for a lot of men and for many women it hurts... I just hate the idea that by the time my dd are sexually active it will be something expected and normalised. In the 70s and 80s teenage boys shared a few sticky mags, now they can stream women getting a double anal on their phones. This generation of inadequates will be our daughters' choice of boyfriends.

It's sickening. I wish every woman who has done this against her desires or inclination would shove a massive dildo up the bloke's arse.

BOF Tue 03-Sep-13 00:28:53

It ruins sex though- explain that you can't properly relax when he's even in the area iykwim, because you are always on high alert to stop that happening. It is your bottom line, so to speak, and he needs to understand that you won't compromise on it.

If you can completely trust your partner, you can do all sorts, and have great sex, but if you can't, then you will be constantly tense and vigilant, and it wrecks spontaneity. Make sure he understands that he is spoiling your sex life by not respecting the trust you both need.

goingwildforcrayons Tue 03-Sep-13 00:29:05

OP. You say you ask him to stop. Perhaps you need to tell him no, strongly. Say you don't like it anf if he is so obsessed with it, you have a courgette in the fridge he can use up his own.

If he is one of those men that doesn't think that no means no and is so preoccupied with his own wants that he will continue to try something that is against your will, then I have to agree with the other posters that this is assault heading in the direction of rape. What if he gets drunk and forces his digits or penis nexttime?

Also I cannot bear to see you make excuses for this behaviour where you are actually blaming yourself, such as we don't have sex as often as we used to or he has a higher sex drive. This is no excuse. Is this reflective of how he treats you generally.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 00:30:07

"Yes, we do need to know how invasive the thing is really, to decide if it's a dealbreaker."

Well we now know. But I couldn't"5 let this pass. NO WE DON'T!!!!!!!!

He does something repeatedly that the OP has said she doesn't trike and she has asked him to stop doing. It doesn't matter what is- from inviting the Argyll and Southerland Highlanders to march round the bedroom to wearing rabbit ears to biting her nipples. She has told him she doesn't like it, and he won't stop. I would not be going to bed with this man again.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 00:33:32

You SHOULDbe making a big deal out of this, it is a very horrible, nasty, demeaning, controlling form of sexual assault. Repeated sexual assault. It is not happening because you are not having enough sex,nor for any other reason to do with you. It is happening because he does not see you as fully human, you are just a warm series of sex holes that he believes heshould have the right to do to as he pleases.

I also reckon he is punishing you for not having anal sex. Not that you should, of course.

It's also very humiliating and violating, isn't it, having him put his finger up your bum? Don't delude yourself that he doesn't realise this; this will be the lrecise thing that he gets a kick out of it, that keeps him doing it. Many abusers are perfectly pleasant in all areas except sexually - they know that it is so hard for women to reconcile their nice, helpful partner in the day with theman who ocassionally does weird, cruel, awful, abusive things in the bedroom. They know it makes it so hard for you to tell people, that you'dnever dare tell people what he does if you left him, etc.

It's not even just the act, which is vile enough as it is. It's what him doing this saysabout who he truly is, deep down. About how he views you, and women. About whepat he believes he is entitled to do to you. About how his sexual kinks matter more to him than your pain or indignity or humiliation. Andsticking a finger somewhere isn't that much fun for the person doing it, it's meant to be for the pleasure of the person on the receiving end. Whichis why this is all about him getting off on demeaming you.

You say you have 2Dc - do you have a son? How would you feel about him treating a woman this way when he'sgrown? Because he'sgrowing up with a father who finds it accaptable. He doesn't need to know ithappens for the attitude of aman who could do that to rub off on him. And do you have a DD? How do you feel about a man doing this to her when she's a woman? Would it be okay?would you tell her to leave?if so, why is it okay for you to stay?! Growing up with a father like that will damage her.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 00:35:08

I must add thatmy less mature reply would be to tell you to put your finger up his arse every time you get intimate, see how he likes it (presuming he wouldn't).

stemstitch Tue 03-Sep-13 00:36:15

It's very easy for us to say 'leave him', but very difficult for OP to reach the point of believing that that is what she must do. It took me so long, and other things happened - physical violence and rape - before I broke with him, but even then it wasn't immediate. It was easy to make excuses - the rape wasn't violent and he never hit me. If I had been married to him with children I don't think I would have left. It took a lot of people repeatedly telling me how wrong it was.

cooeeyonlyme Tue 03-Sep-13 00:37:31

Shit on the weirdo.

Blessyou Tue 03-Sep-13 00:39:42

This generation of inadequates will be our daughters' choice of boyfriends.

Wow.

This generation of 'inadequates' are our sons.

I am equally concerned about the damaging effect access to porn has on our sons, as on our daughters.

ModeratelyObvious Tue 03-Sep-13 00:40:56

You HAVE said no and he IS doing this against your wishes.

Tell him again, when you are not in bed, that you do not ever want him to do this to you. He is not to "forget" just as you don't "forget" not to bite his cock or otherwise assault him in bed or out.

And be really careful OP.

BOF Tue 03-Sep-13 00:41:47

You could well be right, Oxfordbags. Equally, he could just be thick enough to assume that in the right situation, and sufficiently aroused, his partner might enjoy it against her inhibitions. Men in particular get a lot of messages from our society that they have to take the lead and unleash women's real sexual desires, etc etc. It is a powerful myth.

I would give him the benefit of the doubt, unless he is abusive in other ways, and just spell it out very clearly.

If he doesn't take that on board, then fair enough, fuck him off.

TwoTeaTessie Tue 03-Sep-13 00:44:13

I'd do it back to him, and have done to my own DH to make the point as I had the same problem! See how he likes it?

PuffandStuff Tue 03-Sep-13 00:44:16

It's not something I would leave him over but I think I do need to lay down the law. I think part of the problem is that we don't have sex as often as we used to as we have 2 young children and I'm always knackered from getting up in the night with the baby. He has a much higher sex drive than me and we fall out over it quite a lot.

This makes me so sad for you to read this - You are excusing his behaviour which is abusive - This abuse of your body has nothing to do with you not having sex very often - its about his lack of respect for you.

I would have left him the 2nd time he did it.

I think you need to tell him you stop that or you leave. No man would do something to me that I didn't like more than once.

SmeeHee Tue 03-Sep-13 00:58:01

TwoTeaTessie

"I'd do it back to him, and have done to my own DH to make the point as I had the same problem! See how he likes it?"

So you're advising someone who is being subjected to sexual assault to respond by doing it back? hmm

Never mind the fact that he may well be doing it because he would like it done to him.

Not great advice really.

mrsmartin1984 Tue 03-Sep-13 01:04:36

Good god woman, stop making excuses for him. He has crossed a clear boundary that you have set. I would leave my OH if he did this to me. It's a violation of your body. And yes is sexual assault.

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 03-Sep-13 01:28:50

He is violating you OP.

Something like this should be discussed between partners beforehand, with the provisio that if either partner isn't into it, it doesn't get done again.

Not like this and I don't believe that for one second, he's forgetting that you said no to this before.

Ledkr Tue 03-Sep-13 01:37:09

Maybe you should remind him that without your consent that could be classed as rape and as we livei the 21st century it is an offence to take ones wife.
How dare he.

Ledkr Tue 03-Sep-13 01:39:01

Sorry RAPE not take

stemstitch Tue 03-Sep-13 01:47:10

Oh yes, he knows what he is doing. All this 'forgetting' is just an act.

cronullansw Tue 03-Sep-13 01:54:39

OMG....... it's the monthly bum sex worries thread.

Some of the responses here are incredibly odd - my fave was ''LT filthy B'' smile That is just funny. I assume it WAS supposed to be comedic?

He is doing it because anal sex is out there, the genie left that bottle a couple of thousand years ago, not only since video porn became so widely available. Just ask the ancient Greeks about contraception, they didn't even differentiate between a male or female recipient.

OP's bad mannered hubby is trying, but very badly failing, to get the OP to realise she might actually like it.

As has been said here, tell him firmly and clearly, and if he tries again, leave the bedroom.

Don't bother threatening to do it to him, it's a well known male erogenous zone, so no punishment really, unless you nails are long. Or sharp. Or long AND sharp smile

lunar1 Tue 03-Sep-13 02:17:58

Do you ever enjoy sex now or do you just spend the whole time hoping he won't do it again? He is assaulting you, he has no respect for you and he will carry on until you stop saying no, then he will take it further. This would be a deal breaker for me.

ZeroTolerance Tue 03-Sep-13 02:50:13

Excuse me Shapechanger, please don't refer to our sons as "inadequate s". That's incredibly insulting. I presume you only have daughters?

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 03-Sep-13 02:57:51

"Bad mannered"?! Is that how the cool wifeys describe someone penetrating them in an unwanted manner? hmm

ModeratelyObvious Tue 03-Sep-13 06:51:32

Cron isn't a wife, Gosh.

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 06:56:39

Cron if someone stuck something in your anus repeatedly despite you telling them not to would you really dismiss it as "bad manners"?

StormyBrid Tue 03-Sep-13 06:58:27

You say no, he continues. Sounds like rape to me. In your position I'd be more than a bit pissed off, I'd be bloody furious, and if he did it more than once he'd be out on his ear.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 07:35:21

'OP's bad mannered hubby is trying, but very badly failing, to get the OP to realise she might actually like it. ,

Bad mannered?

Bad mannered??????

Patilla Tue 03-Sep-13 07:44:30

Are you ok OP?

hellsbells76 Tue 03-Sep-13 08:10:21

Is cronuallansw George Galloway? Fucking hell.

ModeratelyObvious Tue 03-Sep-13 08:40:31

Because of the first three letters of cron's username, my mind's eye turns it into Cro Magnon Man.

He is complaining about lack of sex (at least that's how I'm interpreting your post) and yet he repeatedly does something you don't like hmm twat.

My ex is just such a twat. He used to do this over anal (no really, contain your surprise hmm). By this stage he had raped me orally and vaginally. I ended up consenting (under duress) and he had anal sex on me whilst I cried and bit the pillow. My boundaries were shot to pieces - I had none whatsoever. I always used to think he never noticed when I cried during sex, which was a frequent thing, but when I challenged him on it once, he said that he always knew. Yet he carried on.

OP I'm not saying that your H is like my ex. BUT he is doing something which is against your will and wishes. He is doing something which is a crime. Why aren't you making a big deal about this? If he insisted on making you coffee every time you asked for tea would you say something?

I know it's scary. Reading responses like this (and others) are shocking but truly, you're not ok. It's not ok.

Lavenderhoney Tue 03-Sep-13 09:51:53

If my dh did this we wouldn't be having sex. How can you relax and enjoy it if all he wants to do is stick his fingers up your bum, and you don't even like it? Does he think if he gets you excited you won't notice?

Is it a new thing he is doing? Or an old issue that's come back?

Maybe he thinks if he nags hard enough you will accept it. Tell him you don't like it, never will like it, and if it happens again you won't be able to have sex with him for ages, as its also a trust issue which will affect the rest of your marriage.

Is there anything else going on? Does he want to try this and might look elsewhere?

Soditall Tue 03-Sep-13 09:55:56

I have to say I would seriously end up slapping him and very hard if that was done to me.

No I don't like it means No I don't like it!

sillybilly007 Tue 03-Sep-13 10:03:55

it depends on what it is, if it's something that is almost forcing you to do something you don't want i.e a position, type of foreplay etc, then yup agree that is very serious and i wouldn't put up with that.
i think in height of passion, some people forget don't theyand concentrate on their wants/needs instead of remembering the respect of others

Seriously, this is a big deal. You are entitled to go utterly batshit if someone, anyone, penetrates your body without your consent. The first time, he maybe thought you'd like it. You made it clear you didn't. He didn't do it again by accident. He did it because he likes it. You are not an accessory to his sex life. Obviously, it is up to you how you handle this and where your boundaries lie, but be in no doubt that this isn't a good dynamic for you currently. You should trust the person you are having sex with, and they shouldn't do anything to break that trust. You really do need to have that clear in your own mind.

SmallTorch Tue 03-Sep-13 10:10:37

I had an ex like this. Eventually, one time he did anally rape me, though at the time I was confused about what happened. I had told him I didn't want to do it. I had toldhim I never wanted to try it. Many many very clear times.
When he actually did it though, I didn't ask him to stop, I was in such shock, and worried about what would happen if I did try to make him stop.
I broke up with him, though gave another reason to him, and only saw him again to collect my things from his place.

I often think about it, now, and whether I should have done something else. He was in the police so I wouldn't have gone to them, and the idea is quite strange to me that logically I think I should have done that, but I can't imagine doing so at all. I feel sad about that.

Anyway, I would be very scared of a man who didn't respect your choices about your own body. Also, think very hard about why you don't think you deserve that respect. Really, nobody should get the chance to do this repeatedly. Respect yourself. Get angry. Nobody, nobody, gets to treat you this way. No means fucking no.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 10:10:51

Fucking disgusting.

I'm sure he will be very dismissive disparaging about the whole issue and us as a whole if you do show him this thread but that said I think you should.

He doesn't respect you or your body or give a shiny shite if you enjoy sex, its all about him. If it was any other way he wouldn't purposefully and repeatedly do something that he knows you don't enjoy.

Selfish, abusive arse. Yes OP, it IS abuse. He is sticking his finger in your arsehole after you have expressly told him not to. He can't avoid the facts, that is wrong and it is sexual assault.

I'm so very angry on your behalf.

In a similar vein, I was keen to try massaging DH's "g spot". After a few minutes he said it wasn't doing it for him and he didn't like it. I stopped right there and then and would never do it again. The thought of violating him and going against his express wishes is just not something I would ever consider because I love and respect him and want him to enjoy sex as well as me.

Disgraceful behaviour.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 10:11:21

Have you read the thread, Billy? The OP has told us what it is and all these replies are about that.

I've never forgotten to respect my partner during sex. How come this nonsense is peddled about men?!

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 10:14:31

i think in height of passion, some people forget don't theyand concentrate on their wants/needs instead of remembering the respect of others

Umm, no they don't.

They don't sexually assault another person because they're so 'in the height of passion'. Notice that the definition of "assault by penetration" (which is what this is) doesn't give a legal authority if the offender is really horny and getting off on it.

Moochicken Tue 03-Sep-13 10:16:52

I've been quite surprised by the strength of feeling on this thread and it's made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't want to leave dh. We've been together for a very long time and have a young family. I must admit though that there are other issues in our relationship which make it less than great at the moment but I certainly would never worry about the situation deteriorating into sexual assault.

I think I'm going to leave this thread now and try to do something positive instead and look into couples counselling. Thanks to the people who had some useful advice on how to deal with this practically. I will discuss it with dh out of the bedroom and if it happens again I'll stop sex until he gets the message.

I hope this doesn't come across as dismissive of other people experiences of sexual assault but it really doesn't feel like that is the case in my situation.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 10:18:45

I certainly would never worry about the situation deteriorating into sexual assault

It already has OP.

I'm so sorry but it already has.

GettingStrong Tue 03-Sep-13 10:29:48

cronullansw you seem to be implying there is no line between bad manners and sexual assault.

OP this is exactly the problem, your husband is effectively training you to see no or little difference between bad manners and sexual assault. He can then, if he chooses, push it further and further. It is conditioning you to accept being abused, and it can be really damaging.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 10:32:36

"i think in height of passion, some people forget don't theyand concentrate on their wants/needs instead of remembering the respect of others"

No they don't. Or certainly people you might want to have sex with more than once don't.

Mojavewonderer Tue 03-Sep-13 10:34:08

My advice op is to withhold sex! Have that talk and warn him that of he gets carried away and does it again its instant ban and then off we go to relate or something like that because he's abiding your trust when he ignores your request and its not right! If you don't feel you can do that then trying ramming your finger (or a small vibe) up his arse and see how he likes it but to be fair lots of blokes like it. Good luck op I hope he stops and you can enjoy a good romp without worrying about naughty probing fingers!

Mojavewonderer Tue 03-Sep-13 10:35:00

Err 'abiding' I meant 'abusing' obviously ;)

Rooners Tue 03-Sep-13 10:37:57

OP, I've just read this thread - I am really sorry this has been happening to you.

It isn't so much what he is doing but the fact he is repeating it, knowing you dislike it.

He's got no respect for you.

I think on that simple basis alone I would be ending the relationship.

Wellwobbly Tue 03-Sep-13 10:44:53

Moo, I am going to say something that might shock you.

And that is, have you thought that this might be HIS secret longing? ie, your finger up his bum?

The prostate gland is very sensitive and likes being massaged. A lot of men like this.

Do you give him bjs? How about a nice oral session and an internal massage? Blow his socks off.

Whilst VERY CLEARLY tellng him you do NOT like it for yourself.

I don't like this immediate LTB. I just think if you love someone, care about them, most other parts of your life is good, then you can change your attitude to certain sexual practices of another person, and allow them to express parts of their secret selves as long as it is not demeaning or humilitating.

I see no problem with this in the context of a loving marriage.

LemonBreeland Tue 03-Sep-13 10:44:57

OP, it does seem that your DH does have a lack of respect for you. I would go batshit if my DH did something like that to me despite me repeatedly telling him no.

Have you discussed it with him outside of the bedroom at a calm time to try and make your point clear?

freemanbatch Tue 03-Sep-13 10:57:42

moochicken, I am sorry that you feel that the people here are upsetting you by the way they are talking about your partner. 2 years ago I was you, I didn't see what people were telling me and I hated my husband being accused of sexual assault by other people because how could that be? he was my husband, the father of my children.

18 months ago he made a number of attempts to rape me over the course of one week, I talked to him whilst making tea one night to say I wasn't happy about it and yet that night he did it again. That was my lightbulb moment, that was the moment I realised I shouldn't have been in pain for days after sex, that I shouldn't have been bruised by his roughness and that what was going on wasn't bad sex it was all abusive and controlling and nothing to do with me I was just a body for him to use.

When I stood up to him and said no and made him sleep on the sofa because he refused to leave and I had no where to go, he turned on my kids. Screaming at them, knocking them over, bruising them and all the time telling me it was my fault because I was making him frustrated by withholding sex.

The people here have helped me to see my way through all this and to get him in front of the police and protect my children. They are not telling you he is sexually assaulting you because they want to upset you, they are saying it because they want to give you the strength to get out before he does something you may never come to terms with and before you become someone you don't recognise.

I truly hope you will do what makes you happy, what gives you the life you deserve as a free and independent adult whether that is staying with him and somehow getting him to respect you or whether that is finding someone else who loves you and cherishes you and respects your right to say no.

good luck.

TheSilverySoothsayer Tue 03-Sep-13 11:18:05

That's what I said, wobbly - but not as well as you did.

I agree with wobbly too.

Charbon Tue 03-Sep-13 11:30:30

OP everyone is right when they tell you that this is sexual assault.

But the thing you might find helpful to think about is that these assaults don't happen in a vacuum.

I imagine that there is quite a lot going on in your marriage that you have been trying to rationalise and convince yourself is acceptable.

For example, I'd be astonished if your husband didn't have a strong attachment to porn. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if you told us that you've never had a problem with it and have even defended porn on other threads.

Neither would I be surprised if there has been a context of your husband overriding your wishes and boundaries or that you have become inured to it over the years and have even convinced yourself that this is relatively normal in most marriages.

Sometimes in situations like this something happens that forces women to see that context in a new light. This can range from sexual violence, infidelity, financial secrets or one apparently discrete act that on first discovery, appears to be aberrant and isolated, but on reflection, really isn't.

It can be very uncomfortable too, especially if you've been bargaining away other behaviours and refusing to see the patterns that were forming.

So I'd urge you to reflect for a while and start 'seeing' your husband in a new light. This is quite frightening because it can mean re-evaluating your position and losing defences you've put in place in order to survive as a woman in this marriage. It can leave you very vulnerable when those cleverly crafted defences start to dissolve - and before you create new ones.

Please don't see these assaults as isolated events. That would be a terrible mistake.

Good luck.

xiaozhu Tue 03-Sep-13 11:30:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Charbon Tue 03-Sep-13 11:36:26

For the record, unwanted penetration with a finger is most definitely a sexual assault.

The truth hurts.

Fancies40Winks Tue 03-Sep-13 11:42:10

xiaozhu this action is most definitely a very serious sexual offence "assault by penetration" contrary to section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

xiaozhu Tue 03-Sep-13 11:43:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyMilfordHaven Tue 03-Sep-13 11:44:09

ha

Mumsnet doesnt like a compromise - will push you to leave him - EVERYTIME

Rooners Tue 03-Sep-13 11:46:50

'I think he is probably just hoping that each time, in 'the heat of the moment', you'll suddenly find you like it. '

Would you think that was Ok and excusable if he was doing it with his penis?

xiaozhu Tue 03-Sep-13 11:47:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fancies40Winks Tue 03-Sep-13 11:47:38

Oh sweet fuck. Xiaozhu you couldn't be more wrong. <head desk> <gives up>

xiaozhu Tue 03-Sep-13 11:48:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 03-Sep-13 11:48:22

What?

Why on earth should she have to initiate a massive discussion just to stop her husband doing something she doesn't like.

No should be enough. Not no and a big long justification that needs to be suitably acceptable to the "d"h. Why the hell should his feelings be so prioritised over hers?

Curlew - sadly it seems we did need to know what "it" was, otherwise we would have even more excuses for the husband's "desires" then we do already.

xiaozhu Tue 03-Sep-13 11:51:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Xales Tue 03-Sep-13 11:51:38

^'Would you think that was Ok and excusable if he was doing it with his penis?'

Again, it would entirely depend on the context.^

Wow you really think there is a context where anything can be inserted into someone when they have repeatedly told someone else no?

Pachacuti Tue 03-Sep-13 11:52:09

xiaozhu, can you please explain why 'technically' it isn't sexual assault under section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003?

Rooners Tue 03-Sep-13 11:52:22

Oh Ok Xiao - well we certainly know where you stand on rape, then.

Thankyou for clarifying.

Xales Tue 03-Sep-13 11:52:42

If he wants a finger stuffed up his arse that is fine. OP doesn't that is fine.

He should respect that OP doesn't not do it when he feels like it anyway.

Pachacuti Tue 03-Sep-13 11:53:36

Engaging in consensual sexual activity with the offender on the same occasion is listed as a factor to be considered in mitigation of sentence, but doesn't affect whether an offence has been committed.

GettingStrong Tue 03-Sep-13 11:54:06

Wobbly I agree maybe he just wants her to do it to him, but if that's the case why not just ask? There's no need to ignore Moo when she says no.

Moo if you are still reading, sorry if this is upsetting but I had a similar experience to what Charbon describes with an ex. One of the things he did to me was exactly what your husband has done, ignoring totally what I wanted. The relationship seemed fine apart from what was happening sexually, and I thought it would all work out. It didn't, he slowly got worse. But which time the relationship had moved on and I felt trapped and stayed, whilst he carried on with the sexual abuse. For a long time I told myself it was ok and I was 'letting him' do X or Y to me, but that wasn't the reality. The reality was that he was abusing me and I couldn't see or accept it.

Obviously only you know what it going on in your relationship, but try not to kid yourself that it's ok for him to ignore you when you say no to something in bed.

Rooners Tue 03-Sep-13 11:55:19

I'm astounded at the people concurring with Wellwobbly here.

Like that is the point!

He's doing it to HER. How the heck can that be justified by assuming it is his own secret fantasy to have it done to himself?

He's not a toddler. He could just, yunno, SAY so hmm

TheSilverySoothsayer Tue 03-Sep-13 11:57:09

Not justifying it, as my original post made clear, I hoped.

So its okay to sexually violate someone because they have consented to sex with you?

Honestly I am speechless, how many times does the OP have to say NO before it can be classed as sexual assault?

Rooners Tue 03-Sep-13 12:17:53

No Silvery, your original post was clear but Wellwobbly was seeking to justify it I believe so I meant that.

I am utterly amazed that inserting something into someones body after they have repeatedly said no needs "context" before it is considered assault.

Charbon Tue 03-Sep-13 12:32:49

To set the record straight on here and to prevent any misunderstandings about the police's treatment regarding this sort of allegation, this would most definitely be classified as a sexual assault and the 'context' would be irrelevant. Everyone who works with survivors of sexual violence realises that 80% of rape and sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim and that sexual violence when it occurs, is often within the context of an established sexual relationship.

So although it is sad and infuriating to see these posts talking about 'context' and urging the OP to consider her attacker's sexual fantasies, be reassured that they are entirely out of step with those responsible for administering the law and offering support to survivors of sexual violence.

Yeah, ok. Many of the times my ex raped me we had previously been having consensual sex. So perhaps I should rephrase it?

My ex and I used to have sex. Sometimes during that consensual act he would coerce me and force me into doing things which I said 'no' to. He would do those things anyway despite me saying 'no' repeatedly. He would do those things anyway despite me crying and freezing. He would force my head down so hard during oral sex that I would nearly vomit. He would force me to have PIV intercourse after violent arguments because he said it was the only way he knew how to 'make it better'. He forced me to have anal sex (without lubricant) resulting in bleeding and pain.

Enough context? Not rape though. Oh no. hmm angry

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 12:45:42

Thank God for you on here, charbon

Hear hear AF

perfectstorm Tue 03-Sep-13 12:48:39

I am familiar with this statute and never disputed that this would be sexual assault in certain situations - but it is not in this one.

You are confusing consent to intercourse (present) with consent to anal penetration (not present). She consented to one - she has made it very clear that consent was not present for the other. He knew that, as it's something they have argued about before, yet did it anyway.

OP consented to vaginal intercourse. That does not mean her body becomes the man's property in toto. She would have needed to plainly end consent to vaginal intercourse, absolutely, because she consented previously and he had every reason to believe consent endured. She did not need to end consent to something he knows she dislikes intensely and has repeatedly told him not to do.

You are getting confused. This is not a case where a woman changed her mind during sex and needed to let the man know. This is a case where the man is anally penetrating a woman who has specifically stated on several prior occasions that she does not consent. He knows full well consent is lacking. It is therefore a crime. The statute's wording is very plain. He cannot reasonably believe consent is present. He knows it is not.

Yes to what Charbon and Itis are saying. Am currently in a police case against my ex for similar things, I can assure you they take it very seriously indeed. I don't even have a say in whether or not it goes to court anymore, it just will on the grounds of what I told them (I told them to explain some other shit that had happened).
So OP, your partner is sadly a bit of a dickhead, and if he does not stop now, chances are that it'll escalate. Which is really rubbish, I can assure you.

perfectstorm Tue 03-Sep-13 12:51:13

Thanks, Charbon. I was editing out my crosser words and didn't refresh before you posted. Had I read yours, I wouldn't have bothered.

I've now read sexual assault apologism and domestic violence victim-blaming on MN in the last 4 weeks, from regular members. Incredibly depressing. You'd have thought we were past these disgusting myths.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 12:54:06

It is so very depressing

HairyGrotter Tue 03-Sep-13 12:55:45

I'm both astounded and saddened by the apologists here. The OP has been clear in respect of this much discussed 'context', her partner is carrying out an act she has clearly said no to, many times, yet he continues to go against her wishes. Quite black and white, he is abusing her.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 12:58:27

What people also need to remember is that simply because the op doesn't consider this sexual assault, it doesn't change the facts

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Tue 03-Sep-13 13:02:21

Thank you, perfectstorm, you have explained that beautifully, I was trying to write something similar but my anger was affecting my coherence.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 13:09:29

"Do you give him bjs? How about a nice oral session and an internal massage? Blow his socks off."

Give me strenght!!!

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 13:14:18

I just think if you love someone, care about them, most other parts of your life is good, then you can change your attitude to certain sexual practices of another person, and allow them to express parts of their secret selves as long as it is not demeaning or humilitating.

Yes, except it is her husband who should stop doing it, if he loves her and cares about her, as the OP doesn't like it and has told him so.
Easy.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 13:17:46

I also give up. I sometimes think that MNers pressure people into LTB because it will be more exciting for the other posters to watch a break up than it is to hear about a reconciliation.

I think we would rather hear he hasn't done it again.

I mean, it's not that hard not to do it. Or at least ask first if she's up to it.

Trying new things and experimenting is fine in a relationship as long as all participants are consenting to the acts. OP has said more than once that she does not consent to anal penetration, he continues to ignore that and carry on regardless. OPs attitude does not need to change she is doing nothing wrong.

Penetration without consent is illegal.

I'm surprised I haven't seen "if you don't cater to his fantasy then don't be surprised if he looks elsewhere"

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 13:21:40

She has told him she doesn't like it and not to do it but first of all (from what I can tell) he is not forcing her, and second, in a consensual situation such as this it only becomes 'assault by penetration' AFTER she has told him to stop (during the act) and IF he has not stopped on being asked to.

The one time might be excusable, as he might have not realised it was an issue for the OP, although he should have asked if it was ok, but at other times he should definitely have asked first and certainly not after repeated nos.

Ledkr Tue 03-Sep-13 13:24:53

xiaozhu
Can you please explain why it isn't a sexual assault please?
Dh is CID and I'm a cp social worker and it most definitely is.

BonaDea Tue 03-Sep-13 13:28:54

I haven't read the whole thread so this might have been suggested but could he be indicating what he'd like you to do to him? Lots of men like a finger up the bum but would never
Say so or ask for it (prob for fear you'd think them 'gay').

If you don't mind trying it, perhaps do it to him and see what his reaction is. Apart from anything else if he doesn't like it it's a taste of his own medicine!!

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 13:30:40

It is sexual assault.

OP did not consent.

He does force her.

I ask him not to and after a few minutes he does it anyway

It could not be clearer.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 13:32:31

As to blow jobs and pleasing him, this is not about sex.

This is about control, aggression, disrespect and ignoring boundaries.

elfycat Tue 03-Sep-13 13:34:18

This happened to me after I'd said no to a boyfriend. He then had another try at it.

I didn't LTB for this reason and we eventually parted very good friends.

BUT... I got off the bed, backhanded him around the head while shouting at him and then stalked out of the room. He never crossed my boundaries again so it wasn't a problem.

OP you need to set a line in the sand that must not be crossed. I don't necessarily advocate violence, but in my case I felt assaulted and went into 'fight' part of fight or flight. It is assault and you need to be clear about that when you talk to him about how he can't do that again. Not an easy chat but very necessary.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 13:34:43

With generic rape apologists who are female, one obviously presumes they are ignorant, stupid, unable or unwilling to think for themselves beyond the blaringly obviously sexist claptrap they've been fed since young about sex,rape, consent and so on, but some of the rape apologists on this thread are actually making me worried about them. The mental gymnastics it must take to try to come up with reasons why this is not assault/abuse/disgusting behaviour, and to somehow try to turn it into an opportunity for the OP to do even more sexual things she doesn't want to do to appease her rapist are truly chilling. It also makes me presume that they must have suffered, or be suffering, some really awful relationships and sexual experiences, and they have found a way to cope with it all by totally denying reality through shaling it in their mind for it all to be okay, or their fault, or even something exciting and liberating like exploring a partner'sdark side, etc., etc.

Of course, whatever reason the rape apologists have for deluding themselves, and making abused women feel they are to blame, or that they are bad partners for feeling the way they do about their assault, or that they are not being abused, and potentially endangering women and their children through their own messed-up agenda, the fact remains that digital penatration of the anus without permission IS sexual assault, both legally and actually, it remains sexual assault even if the OP chooses to cope by denying that to herself (and I empathise, I really do), that consent to vaginal intercourse does not automatically mean consent to any other sexual act a partner decides to do to you, does not mean that if someone wants to do something sexually that you don't like that you are under any obligation to try it even once, and that to keep nagging about it is abusive and creepy, and it also remains true that it is utter horseshit that men sometimes do abusive or rapey things to their partners because they get carried away.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 13:37:05

Shaling = shaping.

Ledkr I feel you may be waiting a long time for an answer, or at least one that is rational.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 13:37:17

He is not forcing her I suppose-but he is not giving her a choice.

Perhaps we should change the word to coerce then? It has less physically violent connotations but retains the impact. If thst makes you feel better.

In my mind there is no difference between the occasions where I was forced and those where I was coerced. I had no choice in either case, I was raped. I did not consent.

BitBewildered Tue 03-Sep-13 13:43:21

But she has told him not to do it curlew. Then he 'forgets' and does it. He is forcing her. He is doing it when he knows she does not consent.

meandtheboys Tue 03-Sep-13 13:47:02

What you need to consider OP is why, I mean really why would he get pleasure from doing something you have told him repeatedly takes your enjoyment out of the intercourse?

He is bullying you. He is hoping you will eventually will stop saying no (because let's face it, it doesn't matter whether you say no or not does it?)...Like others have said, this IS assault. He is penetrating a part of your body that you haven't given your consent to. Not only have you not given your conent but you've told him many times you don't want it or like it. It doesn't matter whether you have given consent to anything else.

Any man who would do something time after time that they know the other person is turned off by just for his own gratification is abusing you. I know that's hard to hear. I am sure you love him and don't want to think that.

You need to stop him. It doesn't matter whether you are already having sex, you have the right to decline anything that makes you uncomfortable and he should want to please you. You need to stop making excuses for him before it escalates.

Sorry to be blunt but there is no way a decent loving man would ever want to do something that hurt you or turn you off. He is trying to see if maybe this time you won't say no, then he can try it again and eventually you'll agree to anal sex, or maybe you won't but he won't stop when you say no. Sorry to sound so blunt but he is very clearly in the wrong.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 13:49:21

I'm going to comment here. I know I probably shouldn't but I do it with the best of intentions. I know the poster has said they're going to go away, but I do have a degree of sympathy with her.

As much as she might complain about her partner and dislike what he does, she obviously doesn't feel that strongly about it that she's ready to see him labelled a sex offender. I've aired my own views and felt the wrath of Mumsnetters (some justified/some not) but the things that hurt the most were when people made comments/insiunations about my wife.

I didn't get the impression that the OP was some brow-beaten hen pecked wife, just that she has a husband who struggles with boundaries and being told 'no'. I accept this could be a slippery slope, but again, I didn't really get that impression.

I'm not trying to minimise his behaviour, but I've been in his position (exactly) I'm going to be even more popular on here smile

Sometimes my wife would be quite receptive. Other times...... less so. When I'm told 'No' I always listen apart from once when I genuinely didn't hear her (God's honest truth). The situation is slightly different but I don't think I ever considered it sexual abuse, and I'm pretty sure my wife doesn't/didn't.

I know also from personal experience op and I'm absolutely embarassed to tell you this but it's important that he'll do this when he's watching porn. It distorts your understanding of what's acceptable/mainstream and what isn't. You end up thinking that it's normal for everyone (and of course for some it is) even if it's not really something you do in your own relationship.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 13:51:07

He is forcing his finger into her anus, Curlew. She's not eagerly bending over and spreading her bumcheeks wide to let it in, is she? It is force, he is forcing her. She does not want it and he does it. Think about someone putting their finger into your bum - it would not happen easily, would it? It would take effort, and, if someone was resisting, FORCE.

And is 'not giving someone a choice' force by another name? If someone has no choice, then it happens by FORCE. Trying to gussy up how you describe doesn't change the fact it's sexual assault.

Why do people fear calling a spade a spade? It's all about them not having to face how nasty people can be, it doesn'thelp the person with the problem to try to find woolly language to describe bad things, or to try to find linguistic ways to minimise them.

Struggling with boundaries? The boundary is when she says NO,

meandtheboys Tue 03-Sep-13 13:55:06

But she isn't 'sometimes receptive' Contarian78 . She has said countless times NO. There is no way he isn't understanding this. He continues to do so knowing she hates it. That is not the same thing as you and your wife. Sometimes I'm in an anal sex mood, sometimes I'm not. That's fine. What's not fine is when she doesn't like it. Has said NO but he does it anyway.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 13:57:39

I've been in his position (exactly)

Sometimes my wife would be quite receptive. Other times...... less so

This is not the position she describes. She is not 'sometimes receptive'.

This is not the same situation at all.

You say you have been in the exact same position. So, did you stick your finger in your wife's anus, her tell you to stop it, she doesn't like it, then you left it a few minutes and did it again, knowingly against her wishes? Did you?

Did you do it over and over again, despite being told, repeatedly, not to?

Did you apologise, promise not to do it again, and then do it anyway.

Did you?

If not, then, no, you haven't been in the exact same position have you.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 13:57:44

More like he's pushing her boundaries.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 13:58:12

Contrarian, if you did something without her consent, then you sexually assaulted her. Not hearing no is not the same as hearing yes. Not calling it that yourself doesn't stop it being so.

A husband that struggles with boundaries and being told no is an abuser. A ormal, decent, loving, respectful partner, male or female, does not push at intimate boundaries or resent being told no. They do not think that their own needs are so important that they can keep trying to push their partner to change their mind. That mindset is abuse, or, at the very least, so immature, self-centred, so incapable or understanding that other people are real and equal to yourself that they are not fit to be in a relationship.

And again, a man who is so involved with porn that it distorts his understanding of what's normal or acceptable is a man whois dangerous to be in a relationship with, and needs psychological treatment. Also, a man who can be that affected by porn must be prettythick, gullible and with a propensity towards misogyny in thefirst place. What you describe here is not normal male behaviour, nor is it common. It is a pathology.

If you keep finding MNers commenting negatively on what you reveal a out yourself and your views and actions in these areas, when are you going to stop thinking it's us being a certain way, and start examining your own self?!

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:11:35

binkyridesagain: I know. I agree. He struggles with that.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 14:13:19

He doesn't 'struggle' with boundaries, he disregards them.

There is a difference.

I'm not saying he struggles with boundaries, I'm saying he completely disregards them and rapes his wife.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 14:23:15

That's what I thought you meant Binky

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:23:40

I meant that I'd been told off for putting my fingers (unbidden) where I shouldn't. You're right, the scenario is not exactly.

Oxfordbags: We all do many things without the positive consent of others. SOmetimes you have to be told "no" When I'm told "no", I listen. My wife accepted my defence that I hadn't heard her (I heard her the second time) as I've always stopped when she's said "No" Which on reflection is possibly half the time. It's not something I do all the time.

Your comments re porn are puzzling. As much as my Dad tells me that my generation didn't invent sex, I'm pretty sure (or it's an impression I get at least) that things (like this as it happens) are much more widespread nowadays. Porn culture has (for men and women) undoubtably had an impact - for better or worse. I'm not an authorithrity on the matter though.

I have examined my own self. I didn't think my behaviour was wrong (this relates to something else (sort of)). but in the face of overwhelming MN opinion - some of it constructive, some of it not - I had to accept that I was in the wrong.

I'm not saying this guy is in the right, nor do I seek to excuse it. I just suggested that it was clear that the op wasn't ready to see her husband - that father of her children - put on the sex offenders register. I offered my own tuppence worth regarding the way porn can distort you views. It affects different people in different ways.

Thank god!

Any man that 'Struggles' with boundaries, that does not understand what the word NO means or assumes that consent to sex means any sexual act he wishes to perform whether his partner wishes it or not, is a dangerous man and should not be near a human being ever again.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:26:41

Even I (my newly enlightened feminist self) tongue firmly in cheek would counsel against use of the word rape. I don't doubt that it's accurate in the difinitive sense, but it's less than constructive. This whole spade a spade thing (potentially a racist term I believe) isn't always helpful.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:28:21

*definitive

He penetrated her without her consent, that is rape!

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 14:30:47

My wife accepted my defence that I hadn't heard her (I heard her the second time) as I've always stopped when she's said "No" Which on reflection is possibly half the time shock

Contrarian your posts get more and more worrying. Why does you wife have to say "no" to you so often? Have you thought about that.

I'm not sure that your posts are helpful to the OP, you seem to be trying to give reasons that make sexual abuse acceptable, under certain circumstances.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:31:13

You miss my point (however invalid you might think it is).

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 14:33:22

Why does you wife have to say "no" to you so often?

Quite.

Have considered asking her before doing things she has said no to in the past?
<bangs head on desk>

Point?

Calling rape, rape? what else should it be called?

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:34:48

She doesn't say no every time. sOMetimes she encourages it, sometimes it's off limits. There are other things too (north of the waist) which she likes sometimes. Other times (of the month) she hates them. I just need to be told. That can't be that unusual can it?

I'm not making sexual abuse acceptable. I have a daughter of my own. I've not once excused what this man is doing. I'm merely pointing out that the op has felt that her husband (justifyably or not) is getting a hard time. I think that toning down the language and rhetoric would be helpful. I know that from personal experience.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:37:23

binky The point I was making was that whilst the definition was doubtless correct the use of this emotive term (despite being technically correct) was perhaps unhelpful.

HairyGrotter Tue 03-Sep-13 14:39:09

You have to be told? How tiring for your wife! I don't have to tell DP Yes or no, mind you, he's not like a dog with two dicks warped by porn. He's, like, nice, normal and respectful and all that.

TheSecondComing Tue 03-Sep-13 14:40:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 14:41:34

It's not unhelpful, Contrarian, it's minimising to call it anything less, and therein lies the problem.

It's hard enough for the OP to take in the fact that she has been repeatedly sexually abused by her husband, whom she loves.

If posters downplay her concerns, she will believe that her instincts are wrong, that she is making a big deal out of a small matter. That is the opposite of helpful.

She may not like to hear it, she may not be ready to accept it, but she is right to be concerned and to express that concern.

When she is ready, she may come back. If not to this thread, then on another. But she knows that validation and support is here for her, when she is ready.

Suggesting that he struggles with boundaries, or is secretly wanting it done to himself, or looking at the context of the act is unhelpful.

Calling rape by any other name is sugar coating it.

whycantimoveon Tue 03-Sep-13 14:43:55

OMG I cant believe some of the comments on here! LTB! hes a bully! hes a rapist!

I think those of you calling him a rapist are belittling rape and abuse (in or out of a relationship) the OP has clearly said what happens and that she doesnt feel that is what he H is doing, to me it appears to be something that she finds quite annoying, but it certainly doesnt sound like bullying or abuse to me.

And I may have missed it, but from what the OP describes is that he TRIES to put his finger up her bum, not that he repeatedly PUTS it in there.

And Contrarian, I fully understand where you are coming from, but I dont think you will win on here! on here your an evil, woman hating rapist!

(and i also agree with Wobbly that he may be trying to show her that is what HE wants)

whycantimoveon Tue 03-Sep-13 14:45:11

And calling the police? seriously?

whycantimoveon Tue 03-Sep-13 14:46:06

'It's hard enough for the OP to take in the fact that she has been repeatedly sexually abused by her husband, whom she loves'

OMG OMG OMG!!! I have no words!

Writerwannabe83 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:46:08

I've been in the situation of being in bed with a partner and things are happening that I don't feel comfortable with and it is just awful. I have actually been crying once during the sex because I didn't want it to happen. I have no idea how I found myself in those situations but on reflection I had obviously told myself I just had to accept it. I cringe when I type those words. Somehow our sexual relationship had shifted to one of him being in control and me just letting him do what he liked. How he managed to wear me down to become that kind of woman is beyond me, but somehow he did, and that is the danger of it. The manipulation is vile, the slow drip feeding that leads to a woman questioning herself and her rights....it disgusts me.

Trust is a massive part of any relationship as is sex and the two must go hand in hand. The minute a man purposefully does anything to a woman even though he has been told "No" is abhorrent in my eyes. Especially anal penetration, that is just beyond belief that he thinks he can do such an intimate thing to a person against their will.

You have my sympathies OP, it isn't easy to read these posts. However, be wary of that drip feed effect, don't allow him to push your boundaries, which is what men like this do. They do it so slowly that you don't even notice and then before you know it you things have got very out of control yet somehow you have been conditioned to think that it's acceptable.

Every time he does it you need to stop having sex with him!! You cannot allow the sex to continue and then mention it afterwards - after all, he will then see no need to accept your 'no' as he knows you will let him carry on anyway. And that is a massive flaw on his character, not yours Like I said, I have been in your situation. He has absolutely no right to put his fingers anyway without your permission and as many posters have said, that very first NO should have been the only time you needed to say it.

X x

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:47:25

HG Yes. I can't read minds. My wife (like most women I thought) is a fickle creature. Sometimes she likes things, sometimes she doesn't. If, in the throws of passion, I overstep her mark (a mark I should add she's previously been only too happy to leave in the very very very very far distance) she'll ask me to stop - or more likely guide things away from that activity - and I'll oblige. The thing she says no to (the same thing the op was complaining about) we probably do 20% of the time (I'd guess) half of that time, she'd say "no"

I absolutely object ot being called a sexual offender and rape apologist. Do you realise how ridiculous and offensive that is?

Shame on you.

TheSecondComing Tue 03-Sep-13 14:49:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

What I find really worrying is that these people walk amongst us

Dear god.. I had an ex who thought it was ok to "just try and slip it in" when I'd already said no. Can't believe there are people out there who would actually defend that??

PiperMaru Tue 03-Sep-13 14:52:40

Fickle confused
I am quite, quite sure that all humans sometimes fancy something, and don't fancy it at other times. Why that attracts a negative adjective is not clear.

Also, if something in a person's sex life can be analysed as 'well, on a few occasions she has let me do it', it's not a massive leap to the conclusion that it's just not that great...

valiumredhead Tue 03-Sep-13 14:54:25

No no no. You have said no repeatedly that should be enough but clearly it isn't !

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 14:56:17

In my case (others may be different) she's actively encourages certain things. Sometimes, she actively discourages them. Fickle. not particularly negative. Just.......fickle.

InsultingBadger Tue 03-Sep-13 14:58:21

That isn't on at all. Next time stop sex and explain why.

YoniTime Tue 03-Sep-13 15:01:16

Bloody porn ruining hetero sex for people...

OP, kick him in the dick from me. Then dump him. OK maybe you don't want to do the first but it's very serious that he ignores your no and your boundaries.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:02:01

Anyway, sticking to the original thread. The OPs husband is clearly in the wrong. I have not once been an apologist for him (or what he's doing). It may well be that THE VAST VAST VAST majority on here are right I have my doubts That said, the op needs empathy. Yes she needs to be told that the behaviour is wrong and abusive (something she already knows) but that reactive and typical mumsnet response has actually had a negative effect as the op has be "frightened" away. Some people really ought to temper and improve their arguments somewhat.

Writerwannabe83 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:02:05

I understand Contrarian - sometimes I want my hubby to do certain things to me, but on other occasions I don't. I guess it works in the same way that one day I might want to eat a huge bar of chocolate but the next day just the thought of chocolate makes me feel sick! Without going into detail there is one thing I do to my husband sometimes that he really enjoys, but sometimes I just don't feel in the mood for it. During sex he will indicate to me that he would like to have this particular thing done but if I'm not in the mood that day he doesn't get it, whereas another day he would.

I think the issue though is that the OP has repeatedly said EVERYTIME that she doesn't want him to put his finger up her bottom. It isn't like sometimes she lets him do it and sometimes she doesn't, it has ALWAYS been a no-go area.

So there is no room for confusion in my eyes, there is no excuse as to why her husband thinks it is still ok to do it.

It's all right 'girls' and 'ladies' - we're fickle because we have a uterus. So no means yes. Sometimes. Because we don't know our own minds. That explains everything. hmm

Is fickle just for women or can we relate it to men as well?

Yes, different people like different things, sexually. And an individual can want sex-thing A on one day and sex thing B on another. It's all fine as long as people are in a place where they have room to negotiate. If you are in a happy, healthy relationship and one partner says 'I'd love some oral but no PIV tonight' and the other one can say 'I'm not in the mood for oral, shall we have a mutual handjob' or whatever without fear of tantrums, whining, having to justify him/herself for an hour or so 'because you liked it last time' then everything's fine.

None of this is the case for the OP. She's told this man repeatedly to keep his fingers out of her arse. He has taken no notice of what she says.He is abusive.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 15:15:46

'Fickle creature'?! Contrarian, you're one of those dreary men who thinks they are really gentlemanly and pro-women (I bet you say "but I love women!" As a response to any criticism of your attitude, don't you?), but you're actually a subtle form of sexist. Seeing women as so different, so fluctuating and fickle and so on, your words coated with a linguistic form of paternalistic ruffle of adorable female heads, is patronising,and seeing women as 'other'. We are not whimsical, ditsy little children, atthemercy of our strange and unknowable moods, grrr.

And 'calling a spade a spade' is NOT a racist phrase. It was in usage decades before spade became used as a racist term. FYI.

And if it is common for men to use porn as much, and be affected as badly as you describe, then you ought to be ashamed of your own sex, absolutely disgusted.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:21:02

Fickle can apply to men as well as women. I'm fickle.

Binky I fear you may have lost the plot.

Oxford I think you're over analysing things smile

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 15:22:46

Contrarian, I think you're minimising things and patronising people.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 15:23:59

During sex he will indicate to me that he would like to have this particular thing done

See, that's how it's done.
Not doing it and then the other person having to stop it.

It's not that difficult.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 15:28:06

I understand that 90% of the times a person may say no to one thing, but 10% of the times will say yes.

So, ask first.

If a person says no 10% of the times and yes 90% of the times, still ask first.

If a person has only said no once, still ask first.

If a person has never been asked, ask first.

Oral sex is not only about using our mouths in the other person's genitals. Our mouths are primarily used to ask for consent where the other person has given no indication of wanting it first. grin

TheSecondComing Tue 03-Sep-13 15:28:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:29:33

I'm not minimising things. I can explain things for you, but I can't understand them for you (that is patronising). The ONE thing I'd really like to get across in this exchange - which is why my posts may seem patronising to some - is that although there is broad agreement that the ops husband is acting unreasonably/unacceptably, the rhetoric here is so strong that she is no longer particpating in the thread.

Whilst I can see and appreciate the need to call a spade a spade (a term I said incidentally MAY have racists connotations - I was aware of the dispute) if the purpose of the forum is to help people understand what is and isn't reasonable and unreasonable, then it needs to be done in a more considered manner.

I use myself as a case in point. I stuck with it (after some pretty awful bullying) and found it useful. Many people wouldn't. In that sense, that knee-jerk response (however correct it might be in terms of intention) was actually incorrect.

AFishWithoutABicycle Tue 03-Sep-13 15:30:48

There us some blurred lines here... He knows she wants it coz she's a good girl.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:33:43

Lewiji By what, waving his c0ck in her face, pushing her head down? (Assuming it's a BJ) Is that acceptable?

Also, although the op's husband is doing so for his own gratification (rightly or wrongly) he's doing it to the op, not her to him.

For what it's worth, my wife and I seem to go about things by way of excluding them at the time, rather than mapping out beforehand or seeking specific consent prior to the event. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way we do it.

Thanks for the concern but I'm fine. I wanted to know if fickle can apply to men as well or does it as suggested earlier require a uterus.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 15:36:35

There'sno dispute that spade a slade may or may not be racist, it predates using spade to mean black by a long time. You're one of those people who wants to try to make the truth sound debatable so you don't look mistsken, aren't you?

Thank you for telling us what is or isn't the correct response to have to your words, Master. Please dictate to me how I ahould react to everything.

You are totally mansplaining, as TheSecondComing says. Telling women what women are like and what women feel. Slow hand clap.

PiperMaru Tue 03-Sep-13 15:37:54

Of course you are minimising it
You are actively referring to women as fickle and setting this up as a norm: "how are we poor men supposed to know when the little lady changes her mind all the time?"

I for one am willing to put forward (but not to accept as an excuse) the idea that men who push for certain things during sex despite the woman having made it clear it is a no-go area are thick about how to respond to women and are getting it wrong, but really, how often does a man have to get it wrong for it to tip over into something far more akin to assault than mere sexual ineptitude? Do you let it go once, twice, twenty times?

Clearly there is a boundary and it is actually easy to draw the line at 'no I don't want to do that'. Any explanation as to why a man refuses to accept that is minimising it as it immediately discounts the right of the partner to say no.

Wow, you honestly can't see a middle ground between having it mapped out and just doing it and hoping for consent after the fact??

Dahlen Tue 03-Sep-13 15:42:13

I think Moochicken has found this thread a little overwhelming. I hope you're ok OP.

I think in this case, there is quite a simple solution. The next time the OP's H decides to stick his finger where it is not wanted, the OP should calmly get out of bed saying "I've said I don't like this. Perhaps you didn't hear it clearly enough so I'll say it in no uncertain terms again now. I do not want you to do that again. Ever. Right now it has killed any sexual desire I have so we won't be continuing with things."

If he backs off and apologises (hopefully immediately, but allowing for defensive guilt, maybe a bit later) and never does it again, result. If he even so much as puts a finger there at any point in the future (unless the OP has expressly asked him to), he is not the man the OP thought she married.

Even if this is about the H wanting the OP to do it to him, sexual experimentation can only take place in the context of being completely uninhibited. For most people that happens with trust. Trust is best earned through respect and communication. If the OP wants to initiate a frank conversation with her H about things he may like to try, first she has to feel that he will honour her boundaries. Therefore, he has to stop his unwanted acts and apologise for them before the OP offers to try anything else, rather than expect it as a response.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:42:54

oxfordbags I said in my nitial post about the spade thing that is was disputed. I didn't lay it down as gospel. Still, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument very few others here do

I'm not telling you what your response should be, but rather suggesting what I thought might be a reasonable outcome/objective and the situation in which everyone's now in (an op who's been overwhelmed by the rhetoric and left) As much as you might think I'm a sexist, there needs to be an acceptance that (even for some women) this brand of feminism - regardless of how correct you might thnk it to be - is turning some peple away from the casue. Much like the well-meaning council worker who bans Christmas in the name of equality.

<offers back (again) for flaming>

as I have lost the plot can you please explain to me what brand of feminism are you relating to and how it relates to this abuse?

LurcioLovesFrankie Tue 03-Sep-13 15:48:16

Ah, yes, banning Christmas, that old chesnut. Urban myth I'm afraid:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/winterval-modern-myth-christmas

However, the fact that you're prepared to cite that as an analogy for your case pretty much confirms the assessment of you as mansplaining - you're happy to argue against straw men (straw persons, straw feminists) - rather than listening to what people are actually saying to you.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:49:47

MoG Well actually the reality is somewhat different. For example, Dahlen's advise is absolutely reasonable and correct. I hope the op can follow it. The fact is, that she might be feeling a little ...er... delicate when/if the situation next arises - so in reality it may not pan out that way. Though I hope it does.

Without giving too much information, for me personally, in the real world, I'd probably put my thumb somewhere near the old winking starfish/rusty sheriff's badge/a-noos* [delete as appropriate] Please lighten up a little before you go nuts about that! and await my instructions. In real life, that's sort of how it goes. Not a perfect system, but she ends up with what she wants , when she wants it, without it seeming less than spontaneous when she does, or too intrusive when she doesn't.

That was too much information. grin

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 15:51:10

The thing about council workers banning Christmas is absolute lies, it has literally NEVER happened. It was invented by the tabloids several years ago. There has never been a single recorded episode of it even being suggested.

Much like your weird, hard to follow bullshit about a so-called branch of Feminism. What branch would this be - the sort that calls rape rape? Because I thought that was just being a normal, non-rape apologist human, nothing to do with Feminism.

Or by nrand pf Feminism, do you mean 'women who dare disagree woth me and plint out the obvious flaws in my arguments'?

And newsflash! Your penis doesn't make you the decision-maker on how a discussion should take shape.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:52:19

o.k. Well to give you a real life example:

I worked for a company (investment Bank) which would not use the term Christmas and would not allow Decorations etc. in the name of equality. It had a very negative effect.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 15:52:49

God, your bum puns are sooooo witty. Thank you for saving our delicate feminine eyes and minds.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 15:53:41

Well,you used the example of council workersbanning Xmas, like it was a well-known truth. Not your company's choice, the two are totally different.

2/5 for effort and backtracking.

Hullygully Tue 03-Sep-13 15:54:42

I cba to rtft as I see it has got silly.

It's simple: if you don't want someone to do something, they don't do it.

If they continue to do the thing, kill them.

The end.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 15:58:06

Look, all I've asked you to do is look at the outcomes.

The brand of feminism I refer to (and I've not dismissed your arguments) is the one which is so radical that it turns people (who should be naturally allied to the cause) off. aNd frankly, it's the sort which assumes that I'd belive that it's my right (because I'm a man) to dictate/decide how a discussion should progress. (which I never have)

It's really radical to suggest that people shouldn't do sexual acts without consent?

I'm a radical feminist, never been called one of them before, wow. However I don't think I am one, but if suggesting that sexual acts should be performed with consent from all parties involved and penetration without consent is rape, then I am very happy to be called one.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 16:04:19

And who has said they belong to this particular brand of Feminism you are imagining we are all into? And what is this brand called, hmm? Before you say Radical Feminism, please be aware that RadFem is a very specific movement and identity, and does not merely mean 'very, very Feminist'.

Also, PMSL at saying that all you've asked us to do is look at the outcome (like, why is that your job?!), then saying that you've never acted like it's your right to dictate or decide how a discussion should progress.

Um, what?!

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 16:05:53

PS I'm pretty sure that most non-Feminists, even anti-feminists would call rape rape when they see it.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:06:20

No, and that's my point. The argument isn't incorrect. There just needs to be an understanding that these are real people with real feelings (with more backstory than could ever be conveyed online) and that the "a spade's a spade" "call it as I see it" school of thought, isn't always the best.

There's the opinion that any of us who deviate from the 'official line' are somehow apologists. That's not the case. It just isn't.

The "official line" that sexual acts without consent are wrong?

some of these replies are shock

no means no... its very simple!

op has said from the start that she doesnt want her "d"h to stick his finger up where its not wanted... yet he still does/tries! it is sexual assault

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:09:48

Actually, (and I'm not disagreeing with you) I don't think that most non-feminists would see a man sticking his fingers in his wife's a-noos (during sex) as rape. I'm not saying it isn't, but it would almost certainly think that this would fall outseide of most people's definition. If they're unwilling to engage further because they're that at odds (and I'm talking about people who should be naturally allied to it), then you've done the cause a dis-service.

ancientvoice Tue 03-Sep-13 16:11:55

His finger could get awfully dirty and smelly up there. Surely he couldn't touch anything when he pulled it out? He'd need to get to a sink first. The things some people want to do to each other are pretty disgusting. I feel sick.

So what should we call it?

You do know there are hundreds of women out there that question whether their non consensual sexual encounter was rape because people refuse to define it as such, they listen to the rape myths and believe them, they blame themselves for what has happened.

This just encourages victim blaming and rape apologists.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:13:11

Actually, I've worded that clumsily MoG I meant the way in which the 'official line' is delivered.

Trust me, as someone who (in real life) usually gets their own way (and I've stopped doing this with my wife before you all start) there is more than one way to skin a cat. Measure outcomes, not methods.

Green18 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:15:12

Oh no thanks! I completely understand. Total ban until he respects your wishes.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:17:43

Binky I can sort of sympathise. It's not easy; however, however painful it might be, attitudes and perceptions need to be changed by degrees. Quite literally, one person at a time. All I SUGGEST is that the rhetoric is approriate to the person listening to it. Toning it down doesn't make you an apologist, it's not disloyal to the cause. Change will be a long-time coming, but it will come - as long as poeple become/remain engaged.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 16:31:20

"I worked for a company (investment Bank) which would not use the term Christmas and would not allow Decorations etc. in the name of equality. It had a very negative effect."

No you didn't.

You weren't ever forbidden to use the term blac coffee, your children were not banned from singing baa baa black sheep, and you weren't obliged to talk about her sooty, rather than history..

And somebody repeatedly putting their finger in another person's anus, even after that person has said thy don't want them to do it, is sexually assaulting them. If they think the person is " fickle" and might have changed their minds, they ask. Which might be annoying, but is not sexual assault.

What worried me though is how op's dh has been very keen on anal sex, and this seems to be the prelude to getting around to do that aswell.
If he doesn't want to respect her no to putting his finger there, why will he respect her no to putting his penis there?
Will he trot out the old "we should be able to do it if you love me"? "It's perfectly normal, lots of people do it", "it wont hurt if you just relax"..etc. All the while ignoring that she does not want to do it in the first place?
I'm asking because that seems to a the common scenario, and the man (in these cases) does not see himself as a coercer or rapist AT ALL. The wife might not see it that way either, but in my experience I felt so awful with it. I had no idea that our scenario would be called rape until a counsellor told me after I had a nervous breakdown.
This was over a period of many years, during which my no's had been consistently disregarded, starting with pretty innocuous things.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 16:33:28

Thank you for mansplaining the need for Feminism, Contrarian. I totally see the light now a man has helped me understand. Wow, until you said the above, I had never realised any of that for myself, and I'm sure that goes for all the other women on here hmm

And it's pussyfooting and toning down that has led to ambiguity and minimising and people thinking there are grey areas, when it comes to rape, etc. Who are actually trying to protect with toning it down? The fucking perpetrators, that's who.

I'm not prepared to sweet talk around the issue, denying it, victim blaming, using alternate words has minimised it, toned it down. Women have been failed year on year. We have tried changing it a degree at a time, its failed. Maybe now instead of the pussyfooting around we start telling it for what it is.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:41:28

curlew I did. I won't say which, but they used the term holiday. Believe it or not, I encountered more Christians at the bank than I had anhwere else before or since. It did create ill-feeling. I think (personally) that it was more of an Americanism than anything else. You're right about the other things though.

You're right, it is sexually assulting them. Ive always thought that that term (whilst also being correct) was more constructive than using the term rape. That's not to say it wasn't rape. The term you use is just (slightly) less emotive.

turbo:.... I'm asking because that seems to a the common scenario, and the man (in these cases) does not see himself as a coercer or rapist AT ALL. The wife might not see it that way either, but in my experience I felt so awful with it. I had no idea that our scenario would be called rape until a counsellor told me after I had a nervous breakdown.

I can understand that. I hope and imagine that your counsellor handled the matter sensitively.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:47:09

Well, I won't tell you what to do.

I'm not victim blaming or minimising. I suggest idetifying the target audience, and ajusting your pitch accordingly.

The one thing I wll say though is that progress is being made, on all sorts of 'isms. It's never as quickly as we'd like, but to say that chanigng a degree at a time has failed, is to do a great dis-service to those that have thought before us, having put more at risk frankly than we could ever imagine.

YoniTime Tue 03-Sep-13 16:47:53

Dude do you think OP finds it helpful to hear about your unrelated ideas about Christians and feminism? She already said she was overwhelmed by the responses. Be considerate.

quit the isms! this isn't about feminism!

Well ,the issue here is that the police sees it as rape aswell. And it IS an emotive word, very hard to deal with so I can understand if the OP has stopped following the thread. It is nevertheless accurate. If a no is disregarded, several times for the same thing, then rape is what it is if we are talking about actual penetration.
Now LTB may not be necessary but the perpetrator must accept and understand that the act is unacceptable and must stop it. It is only if you make a statement to the police that the law comes into it, so that choice is up to the person. But the law is very clear, and rape is what it is.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 16:51:14

Actually, For what it's worth, I think this (potentially) goes to the very heart of what feminism is about. In particular it's relevant to how she' has been approached.

I accept your point though.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 16:54:40

the rhetoric here is so strong that she is no longer particpating in the thread.

Are you the OP?
How do you know why she's no longer participating?

And your reply to me was puzzling. It seems that you haven't understood my post. Please let me know if I need to mansplain it to you. Again.

AFishWithoutABicycle Tue 03-Sep-13 16:55:36

Contrarian
I think you need to re read your post and have a think about how your coming across here.
as someone who (in real life) usually gets their own way (and I've stopped doing this with my wife before you all start)

-you sound lovely!

I do wonder if he stopped 'getting his own way' with his wife, or if she's just given in.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 17:01:54

I don't think that most non-feminists would see a man sticking his fingers in his wife's a-noos (during sex) as rape

So, you were really unlucky to drop in a thread virtually only with feminists.

Pray tell, what would you think if a man stuck up a finger up your anus in a shower at a gym, say, without asking first?
Surely it's fine as you hadn't specifically told him it was off bounds.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 17:04:50

Lewiji Becasue she said so.

Afwab I know. I've said I don't do this with my wife. She actually understands my personality and appreciates that it's afforded us a decent lifestyle. I recognise I do it, and ajust my behaviour to my audience (something I'm advocating here).

Binky she has by no means given in. If you knew her, you know she wouldn't. smile

scallopsrgreat Tue 03-Sep-13 17:04:53

"We all do many things without the positive consent of others" No we don't Contrarian78, really we don't. And the fact you think that people do this just shows how little you respect your partner's boundaries and bodily integrity.

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 17:09:02

Lewiji You're being very very silly. You're taking the parts from my post which seem to support the opinions you hold about me. Even the one you did point out has the words "during sex" in brackets which kind of makes your comparison you draw ridiculous.

For what it's worth, I said, that I accepted that it was rape, but that most people (in my opinion) wouldn't. I still believe that.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 17:10:58

"I don't think that most non-feminists would see a man sticking his fingers in his wife's a-noos (during sex) as rape"

Once, possibly not. Repeatedly, when he had been told she didn't like it? Oh, I think they would.

Moochicken Tue 03-Sep-13 17:11:24

I wasn't going to read this thread anymore, but when I saw 11 pages of replies I though I should.

I am able to deal with this situation. I was just looking for a little advice and support and probably also checking my perspective was right.

I think that if I was worried about acting upon the situation and didn't feel equipped to deal with it, this thread really could have scared me off.

I respect the fact that I posted this in a public forum and people have a right to debate issue, but I think people have lost sight of the fact that this was a request for help in the relationship topic.

MN has been great for help and advice on many things but I won't post about sensitive issues like this again. I will be looking at relationship counselling instead and hope it provides a way to move forward.

I hope that nobody who is in a similar situation and needs real support reads this thread. If I was scared, unsure of myself or worried about what would happen if I dealt with the issue, I might find this thread a bit aggressive and avoid causing trouble.

I don't want to cause offense but please consider that people come here for help sometimes rather than a lecture.

I

Contrarian78 Tue 03-Sep-13 17:12:20

Scallopsgreat I was speaking more generally. But don't let that stop you from taking part of my post in isolation.......

That said, In real life (and be honest here) if you were going to give your partner a BJ, would you ask him first?

BitBewildered Tue 03-Sep-13 17:13:09

AFAIK, from the FWR boards, rape in English law is defined as penetration with a penis. So a finger would be sexual assault as defined way up thread.

Contrarian, this is not a sales pitch and we are not trying to win someone over to a cause. We are trying to help the OP recognise what is being done to her, and give her the confidence to set her own boundaries. Perhaps she is now upset, many people would be, but perhaps she is also thinking about why her H insists that he has the right to repeatedly violate her bodily integrity.

YoniTime Tue 03-Sep-13 17:19:07

Moochicken sad
Sorry if I was one of those who wrote "too agressive" messages btw, it's because many of us has experienced abuse and also have the outsider perspective that people here has react strongly. (I also didn't see how many pages the thread had before posting.)

SirTrollington Tue 03-Sep-13 17:29:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 17:40:20

"That said, In real life (and be honest here) if you were going to give your partner a BJ, would you ask him first?"

If the first time he had said he didn't like it, then yes of course I would. Because I am a sensitive thoughtful human being in a loving, respectful and equal relationship

You?

EasyMark Tue 03-Sep-13 17:41:40

If I was you I would stop every time he did it and get up dressed and go to the bathroom or downstairs and state that if he does that its the end of sex. Do it everytime and he will get the message, if he wants to come then its on your terms.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 17:46:54

AFAIK, from the FWR boards, rape in English law is defined as penetration with a penis.

You're right. The OPs DH is sexually assaulting her by digital penetration.

Still a crime and a totally disrespectful thing to do against someone's wishes.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 17:48:44

She actually understands my personality and appreciates that it's afforded us a decent lifestyle

Hilarious.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 17:49:46

OP I'm sorry that you're upset but you are being sexually assaulted.

He is touching you in an intimate area when you have expressly told him not too.

He may well be a top DH/dad/bloke in all other ways but that does not change the fact that he is sexually assaulting you and disrespecting you.

Lazyjaney Tue 03-Sep-13 18:08:14

I am able to deal with this situation. I was just looking for a little advice and support and probably also checking my perspective was right

OP your perspective is completely rational.

Howling that the OP she has been abused et al despite the OPs protestations she has not is par for the course for some people on MN, you're by far not the first it's happened to on here.

I'd ignore the thread and do what you plan to do.

YoniTime Tue 03-Sep-13 18:10:42

Everyone who has pointed out that what he is doing is sexual assault is correct though.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 18:13:14

I used to say that what happened to me when I was 17 wasn't rape. It didn't the fact that it was.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 18:13:40

change the fact

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 18:18:10

Yes she needs to be told that the behaviour is wrong and abusive (something she already knows)

No she doesn't!! That's the whole point of the thread. OP asks, 6How seriously would you take this?6

The answer: Extremely seriously. This is sexual assault. It is a criminal offence.

There is no need to sugar coat it. Yes, she may have withdrawn from the blunt and honest answers, but she can't wipe them from her mind.

It takes time for it to sink in. It takes time to accept what has happened to you. She will need some time to think things through.

But she knows that when she comes back, people are who believe her. Who understand how awful it is. Who can advise and support her.

It's no good telling, ach don't worry, he's just trying it on, etc. That doesn't help her at all. In fact, it will help the situation continue and perhaps escalate.

what would you think if a man stuck up a finger up your anus in a shower at a gym, say, without asking first?

...and did it repeatedly even though you told him to stop?

BelaLugosisShed Tue 03-Sep-13 18:29:47

Aah back to the good old days, not one, but two misogynist men on a sensitive thread telling the ladies what's what, what would we do without them explaining things to us fickle female creatures. hmm

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 18:37:02

Howling that the OP she has been abused et al despite the OPs protestations she has not is par for the course for some people on MN, you're by far not the first it's happened to on here.

hmm

She has been assaulted.

A person commits sexual assault if they intentionally touch another person, the touching is sexual and the person does not consent.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 18:40:24

howling you say, janey ?

that's a twisted sense of humour you have there

perfectstorm Tue 03-Sep-13 18:41:18

That said, In real life (and be honest here) if you were going to give your partner a BJ, would you ask him first?

If my husband had told me he didn't like them, and didn't want me to ever give him one, I wouldn't ever dream of it. I love him, you see.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 18:42:43

<applauds perfectstorm >

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 18:45:40

I saw this thread this morning and knew exactly how it would have gone by this evening, and there we are, except op sounds quite cool, calm and collected rather than distraught at a load of Mners piling in to tell her that she is wrong about her own subjectivity.

I hope that's right op, and that you're okay.

AllThatGlistens Tue 03-Sep-13 18:56:22

Christ there's been some utter cunts posting on here lately.

Apologists, ignorance, people so determined to spout their own bullshit they've completely lost sight of the OP and her need for advice.

What he did is wrong, OP. I hope you get some individual counselling and can move forward by doing what's right for you. Consider your own feelings first and foremost.

stemstitch Tue 03-Sep-13 19:54:46

Just for a bit of legal clarification, the offence is actually 'assault by penetration' (s2 Sexual Offences Act). If A inserts something into B's anus or vagina WITHOUT REASONABLE BELIEF IN CONSENT and the penetration is sexual (for clarification on consent, see s75 and 76 Sexual Offences Act www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

Theoretically punishable by life imprisonment.

Obviously a matter for a jury, but chances are that the fact he has been repeatedly told that she doesn't like it adds up to no reasonable belief in consent - see s76 especially.

So, not hysterical really. Just, you know, the law...

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 20:01:17

Contrarian while I see what you mean I don't agree because pussyfooting around these sorts of things doesn't do any good.

By only using the word "rape" to signify a stranger dragging a blameless, preferably virginal, dressed head-to-toe in modest clothing, woman down an alley kicking and screaming and violently forcing her to have sex we (as a society) have allowed millions of rapists to get away with raping their partners sometimes for years and years on end. Because women in relationships who are actually being assaulted and raped by their partners are told "Oh it's not that bad," and they end up mistrusting their own feelings, persuading themselves that they're overreacting and putting up with things no human should have to put up with. They feel violated and angry but they are told they have no right to feel that way because "it's not as if he's raping you," and "he's so good in other ways, he doesn't mean it." So they are taught, by society, to ignore their own feelings and to forget about having control over their own body. They are taught that if they say yes to sex then everything else is fair game and starting to have sex means they lose the right to say no. That is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Rape is rape is rape. And assault is assault is assault.

Rapists would like to muddy the waters by trying to distinguish between "legitimate rape" (ie virginal woman being dragged down the alley by a stranger) and...I don't know...something that is actually rape but that the rapist would prefer to be called something else so he can get away with it? Calling it by some sort of euphemism, framing it as "bad manners" WTAF?? only works in favour of rapists, not in favour of victims. It allows rapists to hide behind terminology, it allows them to force the victim to describe the "context" thus embarrassing and shaming her by requiring her to air her sex life so it can be analysed for ways in which she was "to blame" for her rape, ways in which she "sent the wrong signal" "didn't say 'no' loudly enough" "misunderstood" or some other bullshit.

The fact is, before you do anything to anyone's body the onus is on YOU, that is YOU Contrarian to find out if you have permission to do that thing, and if you don't have permission, you don't do it. If you have to ask to find out whether you have permission, then fucking well ASK! I always see people on these kinds of threads implying that actually talking during sex is somehow weird. Well I think if you can't talk to your sexual partner then that's bloody weird. If you can't say "Would you like me to suck it" before a BJ then why on god's green earth are you having sex?

Attitudes have to change, and fast. I am shit fucking sick of women having to justify why they don't want their bodies messed with. They don't want their bodies messed with because they are human fucking beings. They have an absolute right to dictate 100% (barring emergency medical treatment while unconscious) what happens to their bodies at all times. AT ALL TIMES. They have a right to be ASKED, WITH WORDS (yes that's directed to you Contrarian) if they want a certain thing done to their body. They should not have to remove fingers from their orifices or bat hands away from their genitals. Ever.

GoshAnneGorilla Tue 03-Sep-13 20:05:53

^^ Yes exactly CalinDana.

Spot on CailinDana.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 20:10:44

The blokes that come on these threads think they are the Sir Lancelot of the Ye Olde Verbal Jousting. It's just sport to them.

Sadly, they think they are winning.

scallopsrgreat Tue 03-Sep-13 20:12:22

OP I hope you are OK. My advice would be to take a step back from your relationship and try and look at all aspects of it to see if your husband shows a similar sense of entitlement in other areas. If he does I would most definitely not have couples counselling with him. Individual counselling my be a better option for you regardless, if you want it.

I am sorry this thread hasn't gone the way you hoped. Lots of women on here have been where you are and I know most of them were just trying to help. This is a busy site and I can imagine it is very daunting to come back to lots of straight talking answers and arguments to boot.

Best of luck Moo. I hope you get some resolution.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 20:12:23

Cailin says is all brilliantly.

MrsWolowitz Tue 03-Sep-13 20:12:32

*it

scallopsrgreat Tue 03-Sep-13 20:13:55

Scallopsgreat I was speaking more generally. But don't let that stop you from taking part of my post in isolation.......

That said, In real life (and be honest here) if you were going to give your partner a BJ, would you ask him first?

It didn't seem very general Contrarian, given the paragraph before and the sentences after were all about sex. hmm

Anyway generally I gain positive consent especially if it is the first time I am doing something to or with someone.

I find it interesting that you keep using the BJ analogy. I find it quite creepy tbh that you asked me that specific a question and interesting at how you assume I am heterosexual. However, in answer, I haven't done anything to my partners without positive consent initially and then reading their body language and their enthusiasm on subsequent occasions, to ensure consent is there. If they have said no, I've stopped immediately.

scallopsrgreat Tue 03-Sep-13 20:16:03

And YY to Cailin. Well said. The onus shouldn't be on your wife to say no.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 20:19:44

Contrarian PMed in response to my ansewer to his BJ question, because I ended my reply with "you?"

"I was asking mine in the context of doing soemthing /with/for/to a partner when sometimes they like it, and sometimes they don't. (which I accept isn't what's happened to the op)"

Not sure what he meant, but I think it should be on the thread, not in my inbox.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 20:21:50

Yes, I want contrarian to stay the fuck out of my inbox too

creepy prick

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 20:26:01

I'm waiting for him to answer the 'what would you do if a man put his finger up your arse at the gym' question.

(But not in inbox either, thanks)

runningonwillpower Tue 03-Sep-13 20:28:52

My goodness what a lot of fuss about a bloke who is a bit crass in bed.

My theory is that he wants her to do it to him but doesn't like to ask.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 20:30:22

he's left the thread, apparently

too busy trying a few inboxes to see if he can find any submissive females to hang on every manly word

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 20:31:10

poetic timing, right there smile

I knew I shouldn't have used advanced search, I need a shower.

ModeratelyObvious Tue 03-Sep-13 20:38:55

A bit crass?

Bad mannered?

<rocks quietly to self>

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 20:40:30

Running seriously? So what "qualifies" as assault in your world? How violated would your mother/friend/sister/daughter have to be before you wouldn't expect her to put up with it?

NotHerRealName Tue 03-Sep-13 20:43:56

Ah! the old finger up the bum trick eh? I have one like this too. Only its his tongue eeewwww. Apparently I am a prude though, so there you are.

valiumredhead Tue 03-Sep-13 20:45:01

He does it,OP says no he does it AGAIN. That is not 'a bit crass'Ffs!

Are you tackling his lack of respect NotHerRealName?

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 20:46:20

Are you ok with him doing that notherrealname?

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 20:47:54

If that is ok with you, not then there is no problem

are you ?

Ledkr Tue 03-Sep-13 20:49:43

A bit crass?
What is wrong with some people?

Pozzled Tue 03-Sep-13 20:49:45

Moochicken I am sorry that you have found this thread upsetting to read. It obviously didn't go the way you expected it to, and it must be very difficult to read certain terms and certain posts about someone you have chosen to spend your life with.

I hope you have at least read the definitions of sexual assault that were posted. You may not be ready to accept those terms yet but if you feel able, re-read them later on. Ask yourself how often you had told your H that you didn't want to do that particular act. And ask yourself how he could keep doing something so intimate to you when he knew you actively disliked it.

When you are ready, please do come back to the relationships board- use a different name if you will find that easier, but keep talking. Maybe think about other areas of your relationship- does he always respect your wishes/opinions in every other area? People here have been in similar positions.

runningonwillpower Tue 03-Sep-13 20:49:59

Oh no, I wouldn't put up with it. I'd tell him straight.

But I wouldn't go labelling him some sort of rapist misogynist. Folks here don't half go overboard.

He's just shite in bed. She needs to tell him. I know, she has and he doesn't listen. She needs to tell him so that he knows she means it.

I stand by my original diagnosis. Bet he wants her to do it to him.

If he wants it done to him then he should ask or use his own fucking finger. He should never force his wife to do something that she does not want and has REPEATEDLY told him not to do. IT IS ASSAULT!!

FFS!

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 20:52:50

"He's just shite in bed. She needs to tell him. I know, she has and he doesn't listen. She needs to tell him so that he knows she means it."

And "don't do that please, I don't like it" is somehow not sufficient?

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 20:55:59

I know, she has and he doesn't listen. She needs to tell him so that he knows she means it

Ahhhh, so it's her fault.

runningonwillpower Tue 03-Sep-13 20:58:54

OK. I'm out.

I only logged in to register my belief that there has been a huge over-reaction to this. A belief I think is shared by the OP.

And to put this in perspective, I am a feminist and I am not an apologist for domestic abuse.

I just think that it's sometimes too easy to tell other people how they should think when it's not your life.

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 20:59:52

Of course it is fairenuff. She's a woman.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 21:01:01

But she asked running, she just wasn't ready to hear.

No-one is saying she has to leave him. No-one is telling her what to do. She asked How serious is this? And now she has her answer.

Pozzled Tue 03-Sep-13 21:02:14

Runningon How many times do you think she needs to tell him? Would 4 be enough? Or 10? Or is it a case of needing to shout louder, or follow through with a physical action like a slap? How much would it take for you to consider it as a 'legitimate' sexual assault rather than just 'shite in bed'?

valiumredhead Tue 03-Sep-13 21:03:09

But what would you say if your Dh didn't listen running and repeatedly ignored you? Should he still be described as crap in bed or disrespectful and abusive?

Obviously when us women say NO we don't really mean it do we? we're just playing hard to get.

Johnny5needsinput Tue 03-Sep-13 21:06:43

What he's doing is sexual assault. Repeatedly.

And in my very recent experience, men who are disrespectful in bed are just as disrespectful out of it.

I'm not surprised that the OP has other issues in her marriage.

Please don't minimise what this man is doing every time he carries on when he's told no. That does the op no favours. And disrespects her boundaries. Just as much as what he is doing.

I've been there done that and got the t-shirt on right now. And it isn't a nice place to be.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 21:10:18

Obviously when us women say NO we don't really mean it do we?

We're just saying it the wrong way, we have to say it so that he knows we mean it.

Vivacia Tue 03-Sep-13 21:16:26

I just want to say thank you and bravo to those posters willing to talk about their own experience. I think the straight, graphic descriptions have communicated eloquently how partners desensitise, push limits and ultimately move on to assault and rape.

I also hope the OP continued to read and keeps this helpful information, along with the legal definitions of sexual assault, in mind for when she's ready for it.

Another thing with all the 'waawaawaa, surely those wicked feminists don't mean we have to have written permission for sex' stuff that's being posted: decent, considerate, ethical sexual partners may not necessarily have a Q&A session before every kiss, touch, button unfastened or change of position but that's because ethical people are capable of interpreting and acting on other people's verbal and non-verbal signals during sex. You know the difference between a moan of pleasure and a cry of pain or protest, and if there's any doubt in your mind then you stop and check in verbally. You know the difference between a person who is moving closer to you in an eager fashion and one who is either cringing away or holding him/herself rigidly as though enduring, rather than enjoying, what's going on. And if you're in any way unsure, you ask.

Men, in particular, who keep insisting that it's soooo difficult to know a woman's mind are generally rapists. It's not difficult. Those men just don't want to know what's on a woman's mind, because they're going to carry on raping women and would like to do so in peace and quiet, thanks.

Johnny5needsinput Tue 03-Sep-13 21:31:45

I have just split with DP. He was obsessed with anal sex. Obsessed. I don't like it. Tried it once because he pressured me into it and I didn't like it. But he kept on and on and on about it. Tried it every time. Accidentally slipped it in. Stuck his finger in. And I started to Fred sex with him because I didn't like it. He was no is weird about other stuff to. But the sex was just a symbol of his larger disrespect for me. And yes. I did say no I don't like it. Stop. No. Lots. He chose not to listen.

Vivacia Tue 03-Sep-13 21:34:01

I've read somebody on here advocating the definition of, "consent" to be, "enthusiastic consent" which I think is a very good solution.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 21:36:46

Hey, Johnny I was on your thread and, as I said there, I am seriously impressed with the decisive way you have ended it with him. So sorry that he put you through all this shit though sad

And yeah, 'accidentally slipped it in'... that is not 'crass, that is not 'bad manners', that is abuse.

You are well shot of him.

TunipTheUnconquerable Tue 03-Sep-13 21:38:43

Vivacia - yes. It's not about changing the definition of consent (you can't change the definition however much you'd like to) so much as trying to change the attitude to what is required for ethical sex: rather than talk about 'consent' we should talk about 'enthusiastic participation'.
Because 'consent' is very much a minimum standard - it doesn't include any sense of the partner enjoying it, just implies them letting the initiator get on with it. Whereas we all know that sex should be about both people enjoying it, and when you enjoy it you don't just 'consent', you 'participate enthusiastically'.

camaleon Tue 03-Sep-13 21:41:11

CallinDana, what a brilliant post. I think I am going to copy/paste it and keep it for my kids (boy and girl) to read it when I think it is appropriate. They are 6 & 8 now but it won't take long.
Thanks for that.

As a result of this thread I again have told 2 (14&21) of my DCs about making sure that when they have partners that they make sure that their partner is happy and an enthusiastic participant (I like that term) and that they should never do anything that they are not comfortable or happy in doing.

When repeating this message and ranting about this thread to my DD(21) it appeared from her reaction that women performing acts that they are not happy or comfortable with is common.

LoisPuddingLane Tue 03-Sep-13 21:48:27

I've not much to add but as (yet another) woman who has experienced rape, I would not beat about the bush to describe it either.

And we don't need to be told when we've been raped/assaulted because

a) we were there and were being raped/assaulted

and

b) by legal definitition we were raped/assaulted

There can be no fluffing round this issue - ingress without consent is simply assault.

OP I'm sorry that you have been put off posting again about your situation. I'm sorry if my posts have contributed to that. When you feel the need to talk, there are many of us here who would respond to a PM so it would be way less pressurised.

I hope you can deal with it, as you say. I 'dealt with it' for nearly two decades. It nearly broke me.

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 22:27:04

Absolutely, but OP has said from point of view and experience of the broader context the actions took place in, she wasn't assaulted.

One of the problems on this thread is that she hasn't had the right to express that without being told that she's wrong.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 22:31:37

christina, would he have done her any favours to agree with her when she says she wasn't sexually assaulted ?

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 22:38:43

*we

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 22:39:03

Who? Her DH?

I'm talking about the posters on this thread.

Do people really think that page after page of increasing hysteria was helpful to the OP?

I get the need to express your own issues and experiences, I really do, but under the guise of showing some one else 'the light' isn't, given how this thread went, always the most useful approach.

It's not the message, but the scale and force of it that makes people feel like they're in the wrong place.

christina that's because it is assault.

If someone took money from my purse without my consent, no matter what the POV or broader context, that would be theft.

You don't need to have a different POV or a broader context. It is assault

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 22:40:44

we crossed as I explained my typo christine

LoisPuddingLane Tue 03-Sep-13 22:41:42

Perhaps the scale and force of it unfortunately shows just how many of us have also suffered coercion/forced sex/assault/rape. It tends to reignite one's outrage, hearing of someone else's experience.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 22:41:53

What would you have us tell her Christina?

Just out of interest.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 22:42:16

There's been many problems on this thread, but I feel that not colluding with someone in denying they are being sexually assaulted when that denial will just lead to continued sexual assault is not one of them.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 22:43:14

christina, the most vocal posts were people arguing amongst themselves and denigrating her abusive husband

there was no vitriol for the OP herself

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 22:43:23

The point that OP made several times was that she came on for advice, not to be told that her subjective viewpoint was wrong.

That's not helpful to anyone.

I understand that nuance is hard on a public forum, especially when a thread is moving quickly, but OP said quite clearly that the quantity and force of the responses weren't helping her, then people carried on and she left.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 22:45:47

her subjective viewpoint is wrong

I will not collude with that

and she asked how serious she should be taking what her husband is doing to her on a regular basis

do you think she should be taking it less seriously ?

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 22:45:57

That's exactly it. OP didn't need to be told anything in such heightened language. Perhaps a bit more time actually letting her express herself might have helped her clarify her own thoughts?

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 22:47:12

I disagree. Her subjective viewpoint is hers and hers alone to explore and consider. Telling someone their point of view is just wrong is a horribly invalidating thing to do.

duchesse Tue 03-Sep-13 22:47:29

We're just saying it the wrong way, we have to say it so that he knows we mean it.

I'm thinking that emphasizing it with a very sharp kick in the testicles ought to do it.

christinarossetti Tue 03-Sep-13 22:48:15

Anyway, off to bed now, so argue amongst yourself, but a shame that OP had to leave a post about not being listened to because, eh, she wasn't being listened to.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 22:48:35

are you equally criticising every poster on this thread then, christina, because both sides of the argument have been equally vehement in their position and just as culpable in derailing the thread

or are you just attempting to pull up the ones who believe that she has been sexually assaulted by her husband ?

valiumredhead Tue 03-Sep-13 22:49:08

I agree any fucker.

perfectstorm Tue 03-Sep-13 22:49:27

dh keeps doing something during sex which I don't like. I ask him not to and after a few minutes he does it anyway.

He apologized after and said he won't do it again (he says this everytime) and now he can't understand why I'm still pissed off.

In what way does it not fit? What bit is different or missing? Facts don't alter just because another person wants them to. And while her husband may actually just not really understand the seriousness of what he's doing, because we have, as several comments indicate, a culture that almost permits men to do this to women they've had a sexual relationship with, the reality is plain: his actions are squarely and clearly under the definition of the crime. If she reported and he confirmed, he'd be a slam dunk case. So how, if an honest admission of what he's been doing would earn him a conviction, can it not be assault? Do you think a crime is dependent on the victim's opinion rather than the definition? Seriously? Because it would be horribly disturbing if it worked the other way.

I'm genuinely baffled that people can read that, and then read the very clear and simple definition of the crime (inserting anything into another's anus, without a reasonable belief that they are consenting to that insertion) and argue that it doesn't fit this situation, and his doing precisely what the statute describes doesn't matter for X Y or Z reason. Crimes aren't interpreted like that. They aren't that flexible. Certainty is pretty important, when dealing with people's liberty and future life chances.

The OP doesn't see what he is doing as assault. Probably, nor does he. But the definition is a legal and not a personal one. It doesn't alter with their opinions. It's a set of circumstances which fits this situation exactly, precisely, completely. That isn't something you can just hand-wave away, because it isn't down to the individual to decide if they personally feel in their waters whether something is criminal. It's down to the statute. The point is that she has no intention of making a complaint, but that doesn't stop the action itself being criminal. It just... is.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 22:56:07

Even the one you did point out has the words "during sex" in brackets which kind of makes your comparison you draw ridiculous.

It doesn't matter if it is during sex or not.
Unwanted grabbing, poking and penetration is still not on.

The point was that anything done out of the ordinary should require previous consent, not doing whatever and the person having to say no.

Say, even touching breasts, should be done slowly enough for the woman to be able to say no before it happens or allow it or encourage it.
The same goes for a blow job. There is a leading up to it and the man can choose to stop it well before it reaches the actual bj stage.

LoisPuddingLane Tue 03-Sep-13 22:56:14

Can't argue with that.

LoisPuddingLane Tue 03-Sep-13 22:56:53

I meant perfectstorm's post...

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 22:58:30

I can't believe how we seem to have to explain on here what is acceptable behaviour.

Do people really not know this?

Shocking.

perfectstorm Tue 03-Sep-13 22:58:50

Christina whether the OP wants to make this a big deal is absolutely her choice. Nobody is telling her she must take this to the police, and I've read very few even telling her to LTB. It is her life and she should, absolutely, have total autonomy and control over it. But MN is widely read. Sorry, but I think it's rather important not to minimise, act the apologist or dismiss it when a clear case of a sexual crime is being described. Because someone else might read this who is actually wondering how reasonable they are to feel like this stuff matters. The answer is: it does. It matters. It is not okay.

A friend stayed last week who works in the US for a pro-choice organisation, and she often gives talks to young college women about the importance of sharing stories, and how abortion being a secret allows assaults on choice. The example she gives is how she was at a party when she first went to uni, and a guy she actually planned to hook up with started getting nasty and aggressive, and so she changed her mind and tried to stop it and leave. And he wouldn't let her. And she realised that the only way to get out of there was to be "that girl", shrieking and yelling RAPE and causing a huge drama in which her having willingly gone into his room would be held against her and meant she became a pariah, or to just let him do it so she could go. A couple of weeks later she still felt terrible and was talking it over with a friend, and saying she felt awful and couldn't work out why she wasn't over it yet, and her friend said diffidently, "You know, it sounds kind of like you were... raped." Until that moment, she'd never thought of it as rape. She'd originally intended to get together with him, she chose not to create a huge scene when he refused to stop, and so on. And now, over a decade later, whenever she tells that story at an event, afterwards at least one girl and probably several will approach her and say it happened to them. Recently, one was sobbing as she'd never named it to herself before, either.

Naming this stuff for what it is matters. Voicing the reality of what most sexual abuse is matters. And IMO several of the comments below indicate precisely why.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 23:03:01

My exH wasn't that respectful either.

It really wore me out to keep saying no to unwanted advances and grabbing, and trying to pressure me into doing things I didn't want to.

It can be a grey area, and that is why these topics tend to lead into discussions, which can be off putting for the OPs.

But, Moochicken, you should take it very seriously.
I'm sure you are able to deal with this, but remember that we often feel that we can deal with such things and only end up being dragged down further and further, because abusers don't take a no for an answer.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 23:06:18

I haven't told OP what she should do, not even a teensy ikkle LTB. I have argued with other posters who are telling her that she should suck up being sexually assaulted by her husband and pointed out that even if she thinks she hasn't, she actually has.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 23:08:14

It is interesting how some threads go.

There have been a few cases where the OP is being abused, initially refuses to acknowledge it, but digging deeper down it's even worse than it sounded initially.

There have been other cases where posters say it's normal, because it happens to them, only to realise that they are being abused as well.

Sometimes people need a shock to re-evaluate what they are going through.

I agree with other pp that just because the person living it doesn't see it as abuse/rape it doesn't mean that it isn't just that.

BitBewildered Tue 03-Sep-13 23:09:52

Naming this stuff for what it is matters.

Precisely.

CharityFunDay Tue 03-Sep-13 23:15:06

Technically, yes, what he's doing is sexual assault.

Technically if you pat someone on the back, you're committing the offence of battery.

Technically if you pick up a pound coin in the street, you're committing the offence of stealing by finding.

In practice, her partner is doing something that makes her feel (quote) 'uncomfortable'.

This is something for him and her to discuss within the context of their relationship.

Are the posters pointing out that it's technically sexual assault recommending that the OP goes to the police about it?

Really?

I've technically been sexually assaulted, ooh, probably at least a hundred times by men pushing their luck (which, incidentally is how I'd describe the actions of the OP's partner). I've dealt with this by complaining, batting hands away, saying 'no, thanks', etc. Perhaps I should call a personal injury lawyer and end up quids in...

I think this thread has lost its sense of proportion.

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 23:17:59

How many times have you sexually assaulted "pushed your luck" with a man charity?

BitBewildered Tue 03-Sep-13 23:18:02

No I don't think anyone has suggested she go to the police.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 23:21:47

Patting in the back is not technically assault, unless it injures the other person.

Nor is picking up a coin on the street technically stealing by finding, unless you see the person dropping it.

A first unwanted advance may not be assault. Repeated unwanted advances are assaults.

scallopsrgreat Tue 03-Sep-13 23:21:55

'Pushing their luck' Yep, that there is why it is so important to name it for what it is. Minimising sexual assault perpetuates rape culture, a culture where women's boundaries are seen as fluid.

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 23:23:34

Another question charity: do you honestly think repeatedly putting a finfer in someone's anus having been told not to is equivalent to a pat on the back?

scallopsrgreat Tue 03-Sep-13 23:23:40

And I can't quite believe you are comparing penetrating someone's body against their consent to picking up a coin in the street. We aren't even talking those two thins being on the same spectrum hmm

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 23:24:18

Finger

CharityFunDay Tue 03-Sep-13 23:27:00

Of course I'm not comparing picking up a coin to having a finger pushed up your arse. Don't be so bloody silly.

What I am pointing out is that being technically a criminal offence is purely in the eye of the beholder.

The OP said she felt 'uncomfortable' with her DP's actions. I think her subsequents posts show that she doesn't feel that she has been the victim of a crime, even if technically she has.

Life's messy like that. Get over yourselves.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Sep-13 23:28:26

Some people really do equate a woman's bodily integrity with an inanimate object

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 23:30:35

Charity- you said he was "pushing his luck"

Yes, the first time he was. But he keeps doing it, even though she has told him on several occasions that she doesn't like it. What do you call that?

CailinDana Tue 03-Sep-13 23:30:40

What would your advice be to the op charity?

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 23:32:53

Ah, life's messy. Which is why we should just shrug off being repeatedly humiliated and anally assaulted by a finger despite making it crystal clear that we don't want it to happen. It's only as bad as picking up a pound coin off the street. All we have to do to stop if upsetting and hurting us is to tell ourselves it's not a crime even though it is. Glad to clear that up.

Something being technically a crime is quite obviously NOT in the eye of the beholder. The whole being an actual crime part of it being a crime makes it A FUCKING CRIME regardless of the bloody beholder.

If I murdered someone and truly believed it was fine for me to do so, it would still be murder, even if I denied it to myself. And no, I am not comparing murder to a finger up the bum. I realise that I need to make that tiresomely clear to people like you.

Lweji Tue 03-Sep-13 23:33:20

The problem with abuse is that the victims often don't feel they are being abused until the abuse is overwhelming.
Be it emotional, financial or sexual.

Just because the OP doesn't feel it is a sexual assault, it doesn't mean that it isn't.
Although I think she is waking up to it.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 23:35:20

My DH never 'pushes his luck' or makes me uncomfortable during sexual stuff because he is not a rapey loser who believes he should get his jollies at the expense of mine and has a basic understanding of what is acceptable, about consent and so on. He didn't need a counsellor or anything to know any of that. He just needs to not be abusive in nature.

curlew Tue 03-Sep-13 23:46:02

My dp used to say he was going to "do the prep" for dinner- meaning he was going to peel the spuds and so on. It irrationally set my teeth on edge to such an extent that I eventually had to tell him. He had been saying it regularly for 20 years- but stopped at once because I asked him to, and he hasn't said it since.
If he can remember to stop doing an ingrained verbal tic for me, then presumably it is so much easier to remember not to put your finger in someone's anus. "Now what was it she asked my not to do? Ah yes....."

runningforthebusinheels Tue 03-Sep-13 23:55:50

I would just like to state for the record, and for those that "know" me on here, that runningonwillpower is not me.

Agree with AF and all the others (too many to mention you all) as usual.

OP - I know you've left the thread now, but in case you do keep reading, it is extremely difficult to recognise abuse when you are the one who is in the relationship. But what he is doing to you is abusive. Telling a man that you don't want him to stick his finger up your bum during sex doesn't mean "keep on doing it sporadically, because in time I might be worn down enough to start accepting it."

And we wonder why sexual abuse is so accepted and excused in wider society - FFS this is MN. I'd expect better. confused

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 00:04:24

if anybody else has had any more pm's from contrarian please do report them

it is quite clear they are unwanted and inappropriate, and yet he does it anyway

oh...

OxfordBags Wed 04-Sep-13 00:37:19

I think if you would let him keep PMing you, AF, you'd eventually start to enjoy it.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 01:02:14

Oohhhh yes, really he wants me to keep pm'ing him, he just doesn't know how to ask me...

MrsMinkBernardLundy Wed 04-Sep-13 01:48:32

Other than the obvious boundary trashing, the bit of the OP that stood out for me is and now he can't understand why I am pissed off

Not only is saying no not enough but not even being allowed to be indignant about being ignored.

Johnny5needsinput Wed 04-Sep-13 04:01:35

Suppose I posted a thread on here and it said

"My DP hits me when he's angry. I know he doesn't mean it.

It doesn't happen every time but he did it again last night. He apologized after and said he won't do it again (he says this everytime) and now he can't understand why I'm still pissed off"

What would happen? Would all those on here who are saying its not technically an assault would they say it about that? Of course not, so how is it different because its a sexual assault? And to all those who minimise it because its sexual - what are you afraid of? Why can't you call it for what it is?

And for the record. I'm awake at 4am because I have the boundary pushing actions of an abusive man running riot through my brain and it is scary how much I let him away with.

Lazyjaney Wed 04-Sep-13 07:01:58

I think this thread has lost its sense of proportion

That is assuming it ever had one.

This thread is not a balanced view from the MN Massive, it has been a small number of people posting again and again and working themselves into a complete frenzy - a hysteria loop!

Johnny5needsinput Wed 04-Sep-13 07:08:14

I Am anything but in a frenzy.

What on earth are you saying?

MrsWolowitz Wed 04-Sep-13 07:16:13

Johnny I think the best thing to do is ignore Lazy as I've not seen her in a thread where she hasn't attempted to derail it and make controversial and ill-informed posts.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 07:21:10

yes, janey is rapidly gaining that lofty status of one to ignore

CailinDana Wed 04-Sep-13 07:33:29

It's worth noting too that the people who have claimed we're overreacting have absolutely no useful advice for the OP beyond "tell him to stop" which the OP has already done, repeatedly. They seem to want to ignore the fact that the OP's husband can't understand why she has a problem with him doing this over and over and over - he thinks it's no big deal. And what they're trying to tell her is that yes, he's right, it's no big deal. Great, so the OP has to just put up with it because her feelings don't matter.

curlew Wed 04-Sep-13 07:40:13

I just find it so depressing that there are so many women who have such a low opinion of men that they think they can't possibly understand something simple like "Please don't do that again, I don't like it" It's all part of this narrative that says that men are uncontrolled sexual beings that it's up to women to contain and civilise. Which most men would justifiably find deeply offensive. And which a minority of mencan exploit to their own advantage, with the "yes means yes, and no means maybe" mindset.

Ledkr Wed 04-Sep-13 07:42:45

These threads always depress me.
They illustrate how much crap some women will put down to "me being like they are"
Then the accusations of over reacting to anyone who suggests that certain behaviours are unacceptable.
Makeshift doubt that we've come as far as we like to think.

Ledkr Wed 04-Sep-13 07:43:14

Men not me obviously

I have now read most of the thread. I don't agree it's got into a frenzy. Many have shared their similar experiences and are worried that this is the beginning of a slippery slope for the OP, based on the information she has given in her posts.
Some have then adviced that she should just say no a bit more clearly, which doesn't make sense, as no means no. Someone then pointed out that it doesn't because women are fickle. He did need to be pulled up on that. The OP has been adviced to look at other aspects of their relationship, as blatant disregard of her no during sex may also shine through elsewhere. That is sensible.
All in all, rather reasonable advice, based on experience from many.
I agree with the poster who talked about the importance of naming things. It gives sense to feelings, validates your own point of view and helps tidy the brain.
For the OP, strong words describing what's happened must be difficult to read. I hope it has allowed her to find strength to tell her DH that next time his finger wanders, he will just have to take a cold shower.

Sorry, cold shower comment a bit flippant. I hope he will listen and show himself to be a decent loving man.

curlew Wed 04-Sep-13 08:04:43

ledkr- snap!

Fairenuff Wed 04-Sep-13 08:21:58

I think if he was repeatedly sticking his finger in her eye, everyone would agree that it was a no-no.

The people who claim to not be able to see how sticking it in her anus is unacceptable have their own agenda I think.

Ledkr Wed 04-Sep-13 08:30:23

curlew you said it much better grin
The thing is, I've had to leave two long term relationship/marriages so I know it's not the easiest thing to do.
LTB is often overused on mn and suggested when it would be an over reaction or very difficult.
However I think it's symbolic of how determined women are to keep moving forward in demanding fair and decent relationships.
A partner repeatedly sticking his finger up your arse for his own enjoyment (because that's what it is if he's been told
she doesn't like it) is not a fair or decent relationship.

sassy34264 Wed 04-Sep-13 08:32:05

I've been reading this with interest the last 2 days.

I'm quite shocked at how many posters put twists and turns and argue over words, in order not to label it what it is. Sexual assault.

I can only surmise that they have experienced it with their loved ones and don't like to face the harsh truth. I can't think of another reason. confused

If you flipped the situation, and imagine it was you who had put a finger up someone's bum and they had expressed their dislike, what would be in your mind to do it again the next time?

They were just a bit shocked the 1st time.
They may like it if i keep doing it.
Maybe i wasn't lubricated enough, but if i were, they would like it.
I know they don't like it, but if i keep doing it they may start to like it.
I know they don't like it, but if i keep doing it they may get tired of saying no.
I know they don't like it, but it turns me the hell on.

If anyone can enlighten me to innocent thought processes that may be going through his head?

I'm pretty sure if it is repeated over and over then they aren't just thinking nothing and wandering in there with no thought in their head

I can't think of a single justifiable reason, that would make me do it to my dp, once he has said he doesn't like it.

It's pure selfish, disrespect - your body should be mine to do what i like with- mentality.

As an aside- does Contarian remind anyone else of lundy's Mr right?
I can't remember the exact surmising, but it was something along the lines of - this man thinks you are in danger of falling over from your own stupidity and he needs to save you. hmm

I'm sorry the op feels chased off her own thread, but if you want someone to tell you he is being a bit naughty but all men do it, you are on the wrong website.

I hope you have a light bulb moment from reading all this, rather than (if you would have had the response you were after) put up with misogynist crap for years.

CailinDana Wed 04-Sep-13 08:52:04

Thing is though Fairenuff, I don't think anyone has said that it's not unacceptable. The fact that he shouldn't be doing it is agreed by everyone as far as I can remember. What people are objecting to is the terminology being used - rape, assault etc. The reason for that I think is down to how society tends to view rape and assault, as something done by a stranger in a dark alley. What most people don't seem to realise that around 90% of reported rapes and assaults are carried out by someone known to the victim - boyfriend, husband, brother, uncle, father - and that the "classic" stranger rape scenario is extremely rare.

It suits rapists that women don't realise that incidents like this can be classed as assault. It is extremely beneficial to rapists that women themselves will call other women "hysterical" if they refer to it as assault. Society has women very well trained to believe that it's normal for men to disregard their feelings and use their bodies without their permission. How handy that a man can do this and then have a woman say he's "just pushing his luck." Great, so the man can continue to use the woman's body how he pleases and women will defend him.

Society (or the patriarchy if that's how you think of it) seems to have trained women to circumvent their own empathy. I think there are very few women in the world who would disagree that having a finger put up you bum when you don't want it is pretty horrible and degrading. And yet we still have women minimising that, claiming that just because the OP and her DH are married that you have to overlook that sense of degradation and treat is a though he just forgot to turn on the dishwasher. At what point I wonder do these women think they give up their right to bodily integrity? At birth? When they're married?

valiumredhead Wed 04-Sep-13 09:02:03

Sassy, hopefully the OP's light bulb moment will come when her counsellor also tells her what her Dh has been doing is assault.

Lweji Wed 04-Sep-13 09:09:17

The people who keep making unwanted things to their partners (during sex or otherwise) know their partners don't like it and don't want it.
You'll have to assume that they get off in doing somethin the other doesn't like.
It becomes about power over the other person and not sex.
"see, you said no, but I keep doing it and I get away with it, because I dominate you"

That's one reason why it's abuse, being sexual assault and rape forms of it.

GettingStrong Wed 04-Sep-13 09:32:55

The people saying it's sexual assault have not lost their sense of proportion. No one is urging her to go to the police now, it is just a case of trying to encourage her to be aware of and accept this for what it is. Maybe she will be able to get the relationship back on track, maybe she won't, but it is still sexual assault regardless. It is not 'technically' assault, it is assault.

Naming it for what it is is so important. I was one of the many who had no idea that some of the things an ex of mine did sexually would have counted as sexual assault. Not until he did some things that were glaringly obviously seriously sexually abusive, even to me who was trying not to see any of it. In the end I talked to the police about these things, but when I talked to them they asked me whether the relationship was controlling and what my definition of 'controlling' was. Through the course of that discussion I found out that the things I was classing as 'a bit controlling' the police were classing as sexual assault. I literally had no idea.

Rooners Wed 04-Sep-13 09:40:49

Like Lweji said...it's not even so much the fact it's sexual, or what he is doing.

It's the fact that he is doing ANYTHING that you have told him you dislike, regardless of your protests, that is the red flag here.

There is no justification for it. He is getting off on being in charge of your body. He knows it makes you unconfortable. He is doing it anyway. That makes him unpleasant and not a good person.

And as someone else said - what if it were reversed? What if you liked to give him head and he said, no, I don't really like that - you would stop doing it, right?

So what makes him carry on doing this to you?

I also think the fact it is anal penetration is a bit of a red herring, an irrelevance - it's confusing the issues. People are reacting to that, as though that were the issue - we all know that some couples like to do this, some do not. It's not about challenging old fashioned prejudice.

It's ALL about the fact you said please don't, and he just went for it.

I am so sorry this is happening to you OP. Please do look at how he behaves with regard to your feelings in other respects. I hope you are alright x

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 04-Sep-13 09:58:44

Those were my thoughts as well sassy.

"My wife has repeatedly told me she doesn't like me doing this to her, but I'm going to carry on because...?"

I just can't see how you can finish that sentence in any way that makes sense.

perfectstorm Wed 04-Sep-13 10:05:15

It isn't theft by finding, technically or otherwise, to find a pound coin in the street and keep it. An essential element to the crime is a failure to take reasonable steps to identify the owner. There are no possible reasonable steps, and thus no crime has occurred.

It isn't battery, technically or otherwise, to pat someone on the back. An essential element to the crime of battery is that the application of force is reckless on the part of the person applying it. Without that element, it is not the offence of battery at all.

I think it's really interesting that you have invented crimes where none exist as a way of minimising the reality that someone inserting their finger repeatedly in the anus of their spouse, when they know that spouse hates it and has repeatedly said so, is criminal behaviour. It's also telling that you choose to compare an offence so serious that it cannot ever be tried before magistrates, but only a Crown Court judge, and the minimum sentencing starts at a year and goes up to life, with a relatively minor property crime.

I also find it interesting that you say equivalently awful things have happened to you hundreds of times (really? People violating your body in such a deeply degrading way after you have clearly told them you hate it, and they know this and do it again and again anyway?) and it's just men "pushing their luck". Firstly, if that is indeed so then I am truly sorry you've had such experiences and I very much understand how you are more comfortable framing them to yourself as just boys being boys, and no big deal. But nobody has the right to ignore the very clearly expressed wishes of anyone over their own body. To argue that they do is to support a culture in which a group of young boys could digitally violate a barely conscious girl in Steubenville, and then be outraged when they were convicted of raping her. No, it isn't legally classed as rape in this country when someone digitally violates someone else. It is in other countries, sometimes, but not here. But it very much is an offence, because ignoring a clearly understood no - not even failing to obtain consent, but IGNORING a clearly understood NO - while penetrating an unwilling person is a crime. A clear, and very serious crime. And if you think the police and CPP wouldn't prosecute it if they knew and he was honest about his actions, you're living in a dream world. There is nothing "technical" about his actions being criminal at all.

It's depressing that so many women are convinced men are just predatory animals who will always want to force women to permit their bodies to be used against their wishes. Ironically, given the squawks of extreme feminism, I think that's an utterly man-hating approach. I don't share that view of men at all. I don't think all men are selfish, sociopathic arseholes ruled by their dicks. I think they're human beings with the same capacity for empathy, love and mutuality as women. Arguing that a man choosing to ignore a woman's clearly expressed "no" is just "pushing his luck" shows a deeply ingrained contempt for half the human race as well as a deeply internalised inability to allow women autonomy over their own bodies.

I asked my (sweet, kind, loving and empathetic) 4 yr old son for a hug yesterday as he played with his lego. He politely told me he didn't feel like it, and I said okay. He nodded and then said matter-of-factly, as he fixed various godawful guns to his Star Wars ship, "you never have to have a hug when you don't feel like it. And you can't make someone hug you if they don't want to either." I've been instilling this in him all his life, and so have the mothers I most like with their kids - boys and girls. No, you don't grab another kid's hand and yank them about when they protest. No, you don't try to force affection on someone who says no, because they have the right to decide when they feel like being touched, just like you can't force someone to play with a game they don't want to because their feelings matter as well. You have to respect what other people want. No, you never have to kiss or let anyone touch you when you don't want it. And so on, and so on. At this age, it's about teaching them respect for others and themselves, and trying to make them less likely prey for abusers. Reading this, I think it may actually be rather more. Because it seems someone failed to teach OP's husband this very basic lesson early in his life... and various other posters here, too. What basic empathy failure must it take, to think someone can force this on someone else and it's just no big deal? And are these people failing to teach their own children these lessons, too? That men will always "push their luck" and a woman's job is to try to stop it and not "get hysterical" when she fails? If so, I am glad my child is a son, I hope my pregnancy is another son, and I can only assure the mothers of daughters that these sons will be raised to very much respect their own and other's bodily (and emotional) autonomy.

If someone tells you not to touch them in any way they dislike, you don't. If you tell someone not to touch you, they don't. If what they are doing is sexually penetrative, they need to be reasonably certain they have consent first. This stuff should not be rocket science. It's deeply disturbing to me that so many people apparently struggle with it. And as several professionals have indicated, these struggles are not shared by law enforcement or the courts.

In Ottawa, in Canada, a six month poster campaign cut reported sexual offending by 10%. The campaign was aimed at men, and the tagline was "Don't Be That Guy." Educating men on consent, and why it matters and what it means if they ignore it, has been proven to reduce sexual offending. Reading a lot of the comments here, I think many posters need to see the material, too.

runningforthebusinheels Wed 04-Sep-13 10:39:51

Sassy, caillin, perfectstorm: excellent posts.

I find it disturbing when posters argue so vehemently that sticking a finger up another persons bottom is ok when they have seriously told you that it is not ok. I don't recognise that there is any defence for this - not a single one. "Pushing his luck"? "Bad manners"? NO! It is what it is - a sexual assault.

I think the Ottawa campaign is a good one.

OxfordBags Wed 04-Sep-13 10:42:33

Some very important and wise stuff being said on here. The OP might not be able to face up to the truth yet, and that's her right, but this thread can stand for what is being said about rape apologism and so much more.

Perfectstorm has brought up several very important points, in a superb post, thank you.

Every time MNers try to discuss and help someone by not pussyfooting around the terminology and facts of abuse, sexual assault, rape and so on, they are called frenzied,hysterical, man-hating, and they are accused of being a 'massive' or group, as though there is a huge, secret selection of MNers who are part of a sinister cabal which practises a deranged, misandrist form of extreme feminism.

Is this true? Is it man-hating and hysterical to suggest that the majority of men understand consent, have no desire to persuade women to do things they don't want, couldn't get turned on by that, and if they did accidentally do something by genuine mistake or misguidedness that she didn't like, they'd never do it again and feel guilty? To suggest that they are mature, caring, empathic, sensible, unselfish human beings who are able to control themselves and do not want to demean or hurt anyone else? That they respect women and see them as full, real, equal human beings? That the majority of normal men just don't pull shit like this?

Or is it man-hating and employing very silly, odd, kneejerk forms of denial and minimisation to say that men can't control themselves, are little more than animals, or are sexually like toddlers let loose in a sweet shop, that they do not understand consent, that it is normal for men to want to try to push boundaries and co-erce women when it's been made perfectly clear to them that the answer is no, hell, that they think it's okay to push boundaries and co-erce evenjust once, that they believe women exist as their sextoys, as mere objects or domestic and sexual servant? That they don't understand what abuse is, what rape and sexual assault are, or that they are commiting them when they do? That they need women to be responsible for their behaviour?

I think this also points out how Feminism actually benefits both men and women, because we want men to be freed of the bad press and stereotypes about them and their self-control and sexual behaviour. Rape minimalisation affects women far, far worse, of course, but it still does men a terrible disservice, reputation-wise.

OxfordBags Wed 04-Sep-13 10:49:13

GettingStrong - thank you for your post. Your brave choice to reveal that info gives a very clear insight into how abuse, and sexual abuse in particular, causes an abused woman to compartmentalise and minimise and get confused about the reality of her situation. It shows how women cope by telling themselves that it is not really 'that' bad, or by going along with things, or maybe certain things, that they actually really don't want, they tell themselves they have some say or power in the situation, or by relabelling rape and assault as less shocking things, like him being 'controlling'. And it also shows, finally, that even when the victim calls it anything other than rape or assault, when they really believe it's not rape and assault, it actually really is rape/sexual assault, legally and in the eyes of anyone who is not an abuser or a victim employing understandable coping mechanisms of extreme denial.

I am so sorry for what you went through, but glad you know the truth now, for you can rebuild your life with new, better and stronger boundaries and self-respect.

nauticant Wed 04-Sep-13 11:01:02

It's horrible if a woman is being sexually assaulted in a relationship but it's probably better she's aware of this than being in a state of denial in order not to "rock the boat".

Wellwobbly Wed 04-Sep-13 11:17:44

I read this carefully:

"OP everyone is right when they tell you that this is sexual assault.

But the thing you might find helpful to think about is that these assaults don't happen in a vacuum.

I imagine that there is quite a lot going on in your marriage that you have been trying to rationalise and convince yourself is acceptable.

For example, I'd be astonished if your husband didn't have a strong attachment to porn. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if you told us that you've never had a problem with it and have even defended porn on other threads.

Neither would I be surprised if there has been a context of your husband overriding your wishes and boundaries or that you have become inured to it over the years and have even convinced yourself that this is relatively normal in most marriages.

Sometimes in situations like this something happens that forces women to see that context in a new light. This can range from sexual violence, infidelity, financial secrets or one apparently discrete act that on first discovery, appears to be aberrant and isolated, but on reflection, really isn't.

It can be very uncomfortable too, especially if you've been bargaining away other behaviours and refusing to see the patterns that were forming.

So I'd urge you to reflect for a while and start 'seeing' your husband in a new light. This is quite frightening because it can mean re-evaluating your position and losing defences you've put in place in order to survive as a woman in this marriage. It can leave you very vulnerable when those cleverly crafted defences start to dissolve - and before you create new ones.

Please don't see these assaults as isolated events. That would be a terrible mistake."

Wow. Doesn't that pick up what has been unsaid, doesn't that cut through all the stuff, through all the layers, to get to the heart of the matter. What counsellors see!

I think Charbon should be given The Venerable Order of Mumsnet <bows before>

BelaLugosisShed Wed 04-Sep-13 11:59:43

The fact is that good men, decent men, who are loving partners and fathers, do not behave like this.

To be perfectly clear, my husband of almost 30 years has never :

Tried to coerce / cajole me into something (sexual or otherwise) when he knew, or suspected that I didn't like it.
Attempted to have sex with me while I was sleeping.
Carried on doing something when I've said stop or don't.
Tried to break down any boundaries I've ever put in place, by repeatedly nagging about it.
Sulked/ got nasty or aggressive if I've ever said no to sex, neither has he ever attempted to change my mind.

No means No in healthy and respectful relationships.

I feel sorry for the women who've never known a man to be a decent and compassionate human being and who truly values women as equals.

SparkyTGD Wed 04-Sep-13 12:42:12

Hi Moochicken not sure if you're still reading.

DP has done something similar (not the same) and I would also be against calling him an abuser or rapist as I love him & he's a great dad to our DS.

But, I am not blinkered about it and have made him aware that he must never do anything against my wishes again (he's on thin ice basically, and he knows it).

I'm hoping that it won't happen.

Take care

MooChicken
If I were in your situation I would find a time (outside of bedroom) to really discuss this with my DP. I'd tell him that every time he puts his finger up my bum, when I've specifically told him not to, is a breach of trust. Every time it happens it erodes the good feelings I have for him, makes me love him a little less, and that a good relationship is based on trust and respect. That if I'm having sex with him and he fingers my bum I shall immediately stop that session. The lack of trust and him crossing my boundaries will also make me less willing to have sex again.
I hope you manage to sort this out, OP.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 13:25:51

I hope and trust that many lurkers and some early contributors to this thread have re evaluated their approach to this very important subject after reading the massively eloquent posts by PS, charbon, CD and others

Ledkr Wed 04-Sep-13 13:29:08

sparky you say he's "on ice" if he ignores your requests and carrys on doing what you asked him not to would you then say he was not an abuser because that what the ops partner did and that is nothing but abusive.

Applefallingfromthetree2 Wed 04-Sep-13 13:31:55

The OP clearly recognises the seriousness of the issue, that's why she has asked for advice. The replies she has received from some borders on abuse and bullying, and made her feel uncomfortable enough to leave the thread. How can this be helpful? Thankfully it looks as though the more reasoned responses have put her on the right path.

valiumredhead Wed 04-Sep-13 13:41:51

I suspect the OP left due to the dawning realisation that her Dh was perhaps doing something extremely serious and she found it hard to accept. Nothing to do with anyone here bullying or abusing herhmm

scallopsrgreat Wed 04-Sep-13 13:43:41

She knows something is wrong Apple, not necessarily the seriousness of the situation. Who are you to decide what is reasoned?

I bet Moo does feel overwhelmed by the response. I would. But bullying is not what has happened here, at least that wasn't the intention from many of the people who posted. The quantity of responses can absolutely make it feel like that, though.

perfectstorm Wed 04-Sep-13 13:51:22

I think GettingStrong's very brave and important post at 09:32:55 today shows pretty clearly how it is helpful to openly and clearly name what is happening here. And not solely for the OP.

Fairenuff Wed 04-Sep-13 16:38:07

The replies she has received from some borders on abuse and bullying

So you are happy to label responses to the OP as abuse Apple, but not the actions of the husband, is that right?

middleclassdystopia Wed 04-Sep-13 16:50:04

Contrarion gives me the creeps <shudder>

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 16:55:21

Hopefully soon the creep will realise his input is not welcome here

Or is that too much to ask ?

middleclassdystopia Wed 04-Sep-13 17:12:59

I am heartily relieved women have a voice here and clearly state when abuse is abuse.

It has really opened my eyes about my own abuse at the hands of my deeply misogynistic step father and how much hatred of women there still is out there.

I absolutely agree that the OP dh may be grooming her for further abuse and rape.

middleclassdystopia Wed 04-Sep-13 17:15:01

How many women are secretly putting up with rape and abuse behind closed doors sad

Pozzled Wed 04-Sep-13 17:16:04

I'm so pleased to see the clear, honest and direct posts by many on this thread- PerfectStorm, Gettingstrong amongst many others.

I don't know if the OP is still reading- I hope she is- but I'm sure there are lurkers here who are re-evaluating their ideas of what is normal and acceptable.

As far as the OP leaving because she was bullied, or received hysterical responses, I do think it's a shame that she left. But if there hadn't been so many people minimising and defending the undefendable, then the words 'sexual assault' would not have needed to be repeated so often and so loudly.

I hope someday we will live in a society where a post like the OP would receive a unanimous response of- 'that's sexual assault, do you want to talk about it someore? How can we help you deal with it?'

middleclassdystopia this thread, with so many minimising comments have made me wonder the same thing about how many are putting up with abuse.

I wonder how many know it is abuse

BitBewildered Wed 04-Sep-13 18:24:51

Binky that's why it is important to name things isn't it? Sticking your head in the sand is one thing, but you should know what you're hiding from.

Changedmyusernameobviously Wed 04-Sep-13 18:27:13

Try doing it to him ! Might put him off !!!

ModeratelyObvious Wed 04-Sep-13 18:53:53

OP, if you are still reading, how would he react if you stuck a finger up his nose during sex? Repeatedly?

Shapechanger Wed 04-Sep-13 22:15:17

Contrarion gives me the creeps <shudder>

Ditto.

MissMuesli Wed 04-Sep-13 22:32:44

It's true about netmums helping some people understand that they have been abused. I used to describe the behaviour from my ex as "horrible but not bad enough that I could phone take a break". Now I know he emotionally abused me horribly and he is accountable for that. I also now understand that my step brother DID sexually assault me even though he didn't manage to complete what he tries to do

binky I didn't know it was abuse when my ex did it, excused him for years despite feeling very uncomfortable. Took a thread like this on MN to make me realise it was ok to be angry and what he did to me was horrific.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 22:41:40

MOG, I think I remember you fighting very hard indeed against the idea that you had been sexually abused

I am glad you have to some acceptance of it, as hard as it is

I don't think I actually posted about it, just came to the realisation after reading what was said to someone else. Luckily that particular ex was in my past by that point, still pissed that he dumped me and not the other way around.

MNers not mincing their words has helped hugely in dealing with it though. Especially in stopping blaming myself.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 22:48:35

My mistake, I am mixing you up with someone else

No problem, there's been too many users who've been through the same thing sad

AnyFucker Wed 04-Sep-13 22:50:29

Indeed.

LovesBeingOnHoliday Wed 04-Sep-13 22:58:12

Op if you are still reading would you please do tge counseling by yourself for a while.

Moo, just leaving aside the issue of the definition of sexual assault for just one minute.....I'm not sure if you mean that he is constantly attempting to penetrate you with his finger and you are finding it bloody irritating to constantly tell him to get his hand off there, or whether he tries to do it and you let him do it but you are not happy with him doing it and feel turned off and annoyed. But just think about both of these situations and how it makes you feel during sex:

In the first scenario you might well be tensing up as his hand heads down that way. It starts to play on your mind: oh god, he is going to try that one again." You get prepared to push him away or tell him verbally not to do it and then the time comes where you have to stop him and he might well tut or huff and then carries on to PIV sex. Yes, he might not technically be penetrating you in this scenario but my god, how disrespectful and annoying ad distasteful is it that you have to go through the possibility of this scenario every single bloody time you start to have sex? It must surely at the very least put you off the rest of your sex session and then are you just going along with the rest of it to satisfy him? If this is what is happening in your case, OP, then you have to realise that it is not normal to feel tense and apprehensive every time you start to have sex with your partner. It is NOT normal to have to repeat each time that he must stop what he is doing. Just how do you see your sex life continuing in this vein for much longer before you are either a) put off having sex with him in any way, shape or form or b) you decide to give up protesting at it and just "lie back and think of England" which is basically what scenario 2 is.

In scenario 2, you might be having sex, his had wanders down there, you tell him you don't want his finger up there (having told him many times before) and yet - he does it anyway. You can't possibly be enjoying it at this point, OP, so what exactly are you getting out of it? Are you just wanting to get it over with so that he will leave you alone for the rest of the night? Is that how you believe happy sex lives between couples should go? Really?

So just completely leaving out the whole "definition of sexual assault", OP, as it might be too distressing a concept to deal with right now, if I were you I would have a bloody good think about what is actually happening here and whether you think it is an acceptable way for a loving man to behave towards his partner. If what is happening is similar to either of the 2 scenarios described above then I would have a SERIOUS, long hard think about what you are going to do about it. Because neither of them are normal. You might kid yourself that Scenario 1 is somehow acceptable to you for the moment. But can you see that it couldn't stay that way? Your feelings, or his actions are only going to get stronger. A scary thought. And then scenario 1 becomes scenario 2 before you have even realised it is happening.

If you're already at scenario 2 then I really think you need to get yourself some professional counselling to help you deal with it.

Best of luck.

It is a shocking, horrible moment when someone tells you that your partner is not just being a bit awkward, that it's not something you can 'fix' by doing more housework, smiling more and never disagreeing with him, but that your partner is an abusive rapist. Even though it's true, it's going to send you reeling, it's going to be terrifying - how will you survive, economically, if you get rid of him? How will the children react to Daddy moving out? We already live in a culture with a deep-rooted belief (because it was the truth within living memory) that women and children belong to men, that The Man Of The House is lord, master, deity, protector and provider and it's not possible to live without one.

OP, I wish you well if you are still reading. There will be support when you feel you are ready to move on - or when this man's mistreatment of you gets bad enough to be unbearable. There will always be support and help, even if you leave him and return, even if you have felt obliged to forgive him because of religious/cultural pressures to submit to being his property, or because you have family members who are bullies and woman-haters. No matter what, there is help and support. Forgive him and keep on loving him ten, twenty, 100 times even as his abuse escalates, and when the day comes and he's locked you in a room and taken your phone and your money and your clothes, and there's nothing left but to smash the window and scream for help help will come.

Curly has hit the nail on the head here, along with many other posters ofcourse. But the fact that sex becomes so tense and unpleasant, and eventually a "chore" to say the least, is awful in itself. The true horror is when it's come to the point where you are crying and begging him to stop and he "can't hear you". Because he doesn't give a shit about what you think and feel anyway.
After that I agree (again) with those who stress the importance of naming what's happened.
Solid describes it well too. I hope OP is still reading.
I want to add again, that the abuser can change around, but it requires accept and understanding of where he (in this case) went totally wrong. That is sadly very rare it seems.
What it DOES NOT require is the woman to "try harder" to please him. He's being abusive and totally in the wrong, and need to have a good look at himself, his values and his actions.

GettingStrong Thu 05-Sep-13 12:03:35

OP, if you are still reading, following on from Curly's post, if you are at scenario 2 already then I agree so much that you really should go for individual counselling. It is possible to get stuck at scenario 2 for ages, and tell yourself it's ok. It might not seem that bad, maybe he is only sticking his finger up there once a week or fortnight or whatever, and everything else seems so 'normal' that you can tell yourself you can just live with it. Maybe you come up with some reason you can use to justify to yourself why it is ok for him to do this despite the fact you are telling him no (though of course it isn't). Maybe you come up with some reason why he cannot contain himself in the heat of the moment (he can). After this sort of abuse happens, normal life resumes and maybe it does not even seem like it happened in quite the way it did. Perhaps it all seems a bit surreal.

This really is the start of a very slippery slope. It is possible to end up with a totally twisted idea of the reality of your relationship. Maybe you even end up stopping saying no because your no has been ignored so frequently and so it becomes easier to pretend to yourself that actually you are ok with what is going on. So if you are at scenario 2, please don't live with it for too long, as Curly said counselling would be really useful for you.

PrincessFlirtyPants Thu 05-Sep-13 13:10:11

Some of the posts on here are shocking

How some cannot see this as abuse is beyond comprehension.

If my DH and I try something in bed and I don't like it, he would not try that again. Why? Because he loves and respects me. Because he wants me to enjoy sex too. Because he's not an abuser and has resect for women. Because the thought of making me do something I was not entirely comfortable with would make him feel physically sick.

If your 'D'H tries repeatedly to get you to do something you aren't comfortable with, ask yourself, does this man care about my enjoyment? Does this man care about my happiness? Does this man care about me?

valiumredhead Thu 05-Sep-13 13:21:42

Good post princess.

donkeyontheedge1 Fri 06-Sep-13 10:36:15

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HitTheNorth Fri 06-Sep-13 10:41:37

SHE DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT! AND HAS TOLD HIM SO REPEATEDLY. IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER "ANAL PLAY" IS TABOO OR NOT!

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 06-Sep-13 10:46:11

Donkey - RTFT, otherwise you risk coming across (at best) as an insensitive numpty. She is being subjected to what is (quite unambiguously according to English law) sexual assault carrying a sentence of 2 years to life if he were to be found guilty.

Ledkr Fri 06-Sep-13 10:53:25

Not much chance of "the craziest orgasm ever" if you have repeatedly asked him not to do it though, IS THERE?

valiumredhead Fri 06-Sep-13 10:57:45

Donkey-read the thread properly.

internationallove985 Fri 06-Sep-13 11:48:34

Hi Moo. sexual prefrences are very much a personal choice and if you don't like something he is doing then it's your body and your absolute right to speak up.
we only do the missoinary position, It works for us. I've never tried doggy style. (I'm not a dog so I don't shag like one) So in regards to missionary it would be nye on impossible for him to put his finger in my anal entrance even if I so desired in which I would not. I'm proud to say I've never been penetrated with either a penis or finger anally and I have no intentions of either. xx

OxfordBags Fri 06-Sep-13 11:51:06

Nothing gives me crazy orgasms like repeated sexual assault hmm

curlew Fri 06-Sep-13 12:55:28

God, I hope you haven't rad the thread, Donkey. Because if you have, that was a hideous, awful, insensitive post.

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 13:00:45

Assuming you are right, donkey, about how wonderful it is.

If that's OP's H was simply trying to convince her that it is enjoyable, then he should present it as something to try, discuss the wonderful possibilities, and suggest the same as you in a context of full freedom to withdraw from it, and to lead her her to enjoy it as much as possible.

As it is described, he's a sexual abuser. And only does it for his own gratification, which is of power, not sex.

valiumredhead Fri 06-Sep-13 13:01:01

It's neither here nor there what other posters do/like in bed. The OP had told her Dh she wants him to stop and he keeps doing it.

Vivacia Fri 06-Sep-13 13:08:31

I've never tried doggy style. (I'm not a dog so I don't shag like one)

You're a missionary then?

AnyFucker Fri 06-Sep-13 13:09:12

No, she's a cowgirl

Arf

AnyFucker Fri 06-Sep-13 13:10:48

Sorry smile

Hey, donkey, what the Fuck is wrong with you ?

ModeratelyObvious Fri 06-Sep-13 13:27:18

I think donkey has her own motives for posting.

She must have read at least some of the thread as OP didn't put the info referred to in the OP.

donkeyontheedge1 Fri 06-Sep-13 13:31:57

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Johnny5needsinput Fri 06-Sep-13 13:34:10

Ut donkey, the op tried it, and didn't like it.

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AnyFucker Fri 06-Sep-13 13:35:11

There is something very wrong with a person who goes a reply like you did on a thread like this

Or you have hair sprouting from your knuckles as they drag on the floor smile

valiumredhead Fri 06-Sep-13 13:36:14

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AnyFucker Fri 06-Sep-13 13:37:27

*gives

Or perhaps I was right first time, what with you being such a goer wink

somethingwillturnup Fri 06-Sep-13 13:37:32

Oh dear....

internationallove985 Fri 06-Sep-13 13:38:45

None of my business, donkey but you should imply that someone is sexually repressed and frigid. because they do not have the same sexual prefrences as you do. You can't dictate what people do or don't do with their partners. x
Also it is beyond insensitive to use the word frigid as there are lots of reasons why a women could be frigid. A women could be frigid because she may have suffered abuse of heaven forbid been raped in the past, would you make fun of her for not being a sexually liberal as you. Too many grey areas to pass judgement. x

donkeyontheedge1 Fri 06-Sep-13 13:38:46

So I provide a viewpoint which is different to yours, which is that this is some serious sexual assault, and so I should fuck off ? very funny.

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 13:39:14

I've never tried doggy style. (I'm not a dog so I don't shag like one)

On an aside, we are primates and most primates do it doggy style, which is the style most mammals use, so maybe it should be considered mammal style and bird style, even insect style, but not sure about reptiles. grin

I wonder what missionaries actually prefer. thinking whether it would make a nice social science project - all that travelling to exotic countries in search of missionaries

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 13:40:39

so I should fuck off

You could always try it. You might enjoy it.

Donkey it is sexual assault. Your viewpoint is wrong.

internationallove985 Fri 06-Sep-13 13:43:43

Lweji. I might push the boat out tonight and ride on top. xx

HitTheNorth Fri 06-Sep-13 13:57:07

I'm all for sexual liberation and experimentation, but one person persistently doing something that the other does not like, is not it. Obviously.

donkeyontheedge1 Fri 06-Sep-13 14:02:13

It also means they are not sexually compatible. He clearly likes to be experiment in bed where as OP does not want to. So really the option is to find compatible partners or become a bit liberated in bed smile

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 06-Sep-13 14:04:23

Donkey - so your idea of becoming liberated is to allow someone to sexually assault you?

blueskiesandbutterflies Fri 06-Sep-13 14:04:46

I do agree that the OP's H is totally out of line. She should be able to enjoy sex without pressure to engage in 'activities' that turn her off.

However, I am totally shocked how frigid some of the posters on this thread are (not you though, op x). Saying you've never tried doggy style because you're not a dog is sort of like when women say they didn't/do not breastfeed because they're not a cow! Sounds bizarre!

A man is also entitled to have preferences in bed. I like to please my dh in bed & am open minded to 'experimentating' to an extent but I also let himnow if I'm uncomfortable with something, he respects that. He's ever forced me anything on me. The GOP's H does not sound like a considerate lover tbh.

Lordy. If only I'd known that when FWEx was raping me it was because we were incompatible in bed. It could have changed history hmm

blueskiesandbutterflies Fri 06-Sep-13 14:05:29

*OP

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 14:05:30

About frigidity

"Many clinicians now regard frigidity to be a sexist term"

From Britannica: "inability to experience a sexual response of any kind; ability to achieve sexual arousal only with great difficulty (hyposexuality); and the inability to achieve orgasm (anorgasmia)."

Failing to see how someone who enjoys sex and has orgasms can be frigid by only enjoying one or few sexual positions shock or refusing to accept being sexually assaulted. angry

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 06-Sep-13 14:05:51

Also, it's not just my viewpoint that it's sexual assault, it's objectively classified as such under English law.

internationallove985 Fri 06-Sep-13 14:06:38

In regards to my comment made on 6.9.13 at 13.38.45. (in and outs of a ducks arse there) Line 1 Apologies I missed the word "Not".xx

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 14:07:44

<coughs soup>

Next line of defense for rape: we are just not compatible in bed. I wanted sex and she didn't.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 06-Sep-13 14:08:53

Also, Donkey, can I ask you what drew you to mumsnet? Always interested to get to know newbies...

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 14:11:27

Also, Donkey, can I ask you what drew you to mumsnet

Probably donkey's wife posted about how she didn't like that he kept doing something sexual to her that she kept telling him not to.
hmm

blueskiesandbutterflies Fri 06-Sep-13 14:12:27

I kind of get where you're coming from donkey perhaps because (by op's own admission) her H has much higher sex drive than her, the are incompatible in bed. But to be fair, the op has a small baby so it's understandable that she doesn't really feel like sex much. It does also sound as though her H is quite inconsiderate in bed.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 06-Sep-13 14:13:37

Well, maybe not all newbies, but, you know, just a bit curious. Curious as to why someone would show up for the first time on a thread by a woman who's unhappy with what her husband is doing to her, and may have to get her head round the fact that it is even worse than she thought, in that his behaviour is not just a bit insensitive but is in fact assault, a thread where women have described how they've had ex partners who started with this sort of behaviour and then escalated to rape, why someone would show up on this sort of thread and post, well, inflammatory shite?

WhitegoldWielder Fri 06-Sep-13 14:14:29

Donkey? He-hawed to try posting under a different name surely? Remind me what was the memo on new posters with numbers at the end of their posting name?

OxfordBags Fri 06-Sep-13 14:16:11

Dear Agony Aunt, I want to rape my wife, but she insists on only ever having totally consensual sex, and futhermore, will only do things she enjoys and wants to do? How can I get her to relax and enjoy being raped and demeaned? Yours, Mr R. Apist.

Dear R. Apist, your wife is clearly frigid to not want to do something that she hates and which hurts her. Despite your repeated attempts to get her to see that being raped and doing things you hate is great, I think you need to accept that the two of you are basically incompatible. Perhaps you would be better off finding a more compliant victim to abuse and emotionally damage forever?

blueskiesandbutterflies Fri 06-Sep-13 14:19:01

Lweji I'm not sure if it was you who said they only do missionary? I find that frigid. Sorry but I just do. I find missionary lovely when having a loving moment being intimate, but I do enjoy having raw, primal, dirty sex & so does dh. I would find sex so boring if I only ever had dh on top (or me on top) facing each other.

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 14:22:22

No, not me.

But it's still not frigid (read definitions).

You enjoy what you enjoy.
Respect other people for their preferences.

By your definition someone into S&M, swinging, dogging, etc could consider you frigid too. grin

Vivacia Fri 06-Sep-13 14:24:12

How many times does this need pointing out on the thread? It's not about anal sex, it's about persisting with a sexual act after the other has said, 'no'.

But otherwise, please do use this as an excuse to talk about how liberated you are.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 06-Sep-13 14:24:43

Blueskies, why the heck would your post about the missionary position be more acceptable than someone coming on and accusing you of being a [insert patriarchal derogatory name for woman who has the temerity to enjoy sex here] for wanting to use other positions? (I'm deliberately not using any examples, because they are offensive, and in any case that's not the point I'm trying to make - I might, for all you know, be more adventurous than you, I might be less so, it doesn't matter and more importantly is *not relevant*).

This thread has nothing to do with what is or isn't morally acceptable in bed (answer - whatever you both find mutually enjoyable - or, if more than two, whatever all of you find mutually enjoyable). It's about sexual activities being forced on someone after they have made it crystal clear that they don't want those sexual activities - and that is sexual assault, whether it's the missionary position or dangling upside down from the bloody chandelier.

WhitegoldWielder Fri 06-Sep-13 14:27:40

On a thread where the OP may be slowly realizing that actually what her husband is doing is sexual assault it obviously makes sense for other posters to discuss how sexually liberated they are.......marvelous hmm

internationallove985 Fri 06-Sep-13 14:27:59

No it was me butterfilesandblueskies. who said they only do the missionary. So you find me frigid, do I care.. Please allow me to take a minute to think about that............................................................60.
Err no I don't. Now please listen up because I am only going to say this once. "My sex life. My body. My choice. Also it doesn't get in the way of me climaxing. Like I said I may try going on top later but that will be my own choice". X

valiumredhead Fri 06-Sep-13 14:29:23

Again, this is NOT about sex preferences. It's not even really about sex, it's about power and the fact that the OP's Dh is repeatedly asked to stop and he ignores her. That is nothing to do with not being adventurous , it's abuse and I am stunned that it can be seen as anything else.

AvonCallingBarksdale Fri 06-Sep-13 14:29:44

I've read most of the thread. Some really shocking, depressing responses on here shock sad angry
Just to echo others - the what he's doing isn't really the issue, it's the fact that the OP has repeatedly said she doesn't like it. Total lack of respect and understanding, and shows a worrying propensity for not giving a toss about his partner's wishes or feelings. OP, this is already a big deal, it's not a question of you making a big deal out of it.

OxfordBags Fri 06-Sep-13 14:30:55

I bet women who only ever have sex in the missionary position have a happier sex life, and relationship in general, than women whose partners make them do, or do to them, things that they don't like, which hurt and humiliate them, and which they repeatedly ask him not to.

Or victims of sexual assault and/or rape and sexual abuse, to put it more succinctly.

And can I just say that if there is anything more pathetic, immature and rude than to pass judgement on how tame someone else's private life is (what are we, teenagers giggling about 'who done the sex'?!), it's using incorrect terminology like frigid to try to insult them. Mind you, if you're going to do something like that, you're not going to be the brightest spark, are you?

FrigginRexManningDay Fri 06-Sep-13 14:32:01

No wonder rape and sexual assault convictions are so low. I'm am so sad to read some of the stories on this thread. How has an intelligent society allowed such ignorance to thrive? Your body is yours. You have absolute right over what happens to it (omitting medical emergencies). A normal sexual partner would pick up on behavioural cues on whether their advances,techniques or positions are welcomed. No should only need to be used once.

OxfordBags Fri 06-Sep-13 14:33:33

Rex, I think the key here is that INTELLIGENT society doesn't allow it to thrive. Unintelligent society, however...

blueskiesandbutterflies Fri 06-Sep-13 14:36:03

international I wonder how much you care if your partner actually enjoys sex in only one position. If he does, then good for you because most men/women enjoy or have at least tried a variety of positions.

Lweji Fri 06-Sep-13 14:37:25

Maybe you want to start your own thread or take it to PM?
Maybe start a blog?

internationallove985 Fri 06-Sep-13 14:37:32

Well like I say blueskiesandbutterflies It works. x

valiumredhead Fri 06-Sep-13 14:38:20

Blue-are you serious?! Have you read the thread? Are you really so insensitive to KEEP posting about sexual positions on a thread about abuse?shock

OxfordBags Fri 06-Sep-13 14:39:05

Does that mean she should have sex in positions she finds unpleasant, humiliating, weird or even painful then, blueskies, if her DH would like it?

valiumredhead Fri 06-Sep-13 14:40:19

Your posts really smack of 'oooo look at me, I'm so sexually adventurous' it's so childish.