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DH never apologises, its ALWAYS someone else's fault, now becoming unbearable but don't know how to move on.please help

(173 Posts)
ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 12:46:30

DH and I are in a terrible place. Been together 10 years, had a long period of secondary infertility in which he was extremely unsupportive, even though the problem was his, now we have moved on from that.
But now he is never able to see when he is at fault. And never apologises. It is always someone else's fault to the point of very cleverly imagining scenarios to twist it round so he is innocent.

I am by no means perfect but am definitely able to say sorry and move on.
He on the other hand calls me controlling if I ask for an apology, or says people are too sensitive if they have been upset by him. It's always me that need counselling, he says he is fine.

If it was the occasional episode I would ignore and move on without getting an apology, its just not worth the grief from him, but now its constant. I don't know how to carry on, every day brings new problems.

In front of our DD he has just told me to leave, get away from him, he doesn't want me around. That upsets me so much. I've told him in the past to stop talking like this in front of DD but his temper flares and you cant stop him.
Ive tried talking calmly and reasonably to him, suggesting marriage counselling but its always turned round to the fact that I need help, I've had a difficult childhood ( not true at all, we are a very close family). Its actually him with family issues.

Totally frustrated and unhappy, any ideas.

Thank you for reading x

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 12:48:36

sad
take him at his word.
Leave.
even if it's only the weekend, even if it's only to your mum's.

He does need to think about what he wants from you and from life - he can't keep blaming and dismissing.

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 12:49:15

and it sounds like he would benefit from counselling. but maybe on his own first.

Seriously OP what are you getting out of the relationship? He sounds awful and (with no experience) it sounds like emotional abuse to me.

I think your fourth paragraph is the real issue.

ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 12:55:56

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Leaving to go to family isn't an option unfortunately as we are overseas and our DD has school.
Haven't talked to any friends about how bad things are at home, Im ashamed, I guess.

I would love him to get counselling, he is carrying so much baggage from childhood and a very bad relationship with his brother. But he won't see it at all.

Madlizzy Sat 31-Aug-13 13:01:31

Was your DD born overseas? If not, then you do have the option to go home. You'll never get him to change because he doesn't think he needs to. You only get one life - is this how you want to spend the rest of it?

ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 13:02:51

Yes to the emotional abuse, he is an expert at ignoring me, or making out he hasn't heard me.
but then it will be my fault for asking him a question as he walks in to a room to go somewhere else. I should have waited until he is staying put in a room to engage in a conversation with him.
Cant cope with it much more.

ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 13:13:51

Cross posts Madlizzy,
No DD born here. I can't bear another day of this,
I really want us too work it through and be happy but I cant see that happening without help, which he adamantly refuses too.

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 13:22:15

He knows he is at fault. That is his problem. he knows all to well. He feels ashamed and guilty and upset.
Like you say, he has childhood issues and brother issues, and feels belittled. So hates hates saying sorry.
You need the book, Why men walk and women talk.

FrancescaBell Sat 31-Aug-13 14:13:17

I think a solicitor would be more helpful in this situation, than a book.

You can't work things through with someone who is abusive. Not in counselling, because a good one wouldn't touch a couple where one is abusive and not by reasoning, because this feeds the need to abuse.

JumpingJackSprat Sat 31-Aug-13 14:20:32

He sounds like my ex. never ever was anything his fault, other people were too sensitive. if i was quiet then he would be badgering me as to what my problem was until i was in a mood, then he would be the injured party. im now with a man who absolutely treats me with respect, love and consideration. i didnt know how bad my previous relationship was until i met my dp. (and read mumsnet and realised he was a controlling, emotionally abusive fuckwit who didnt deserve me). Good luck op, knowing how good life can be away from a man like that, even single, i would leave him.

Walkacrossthesand Sat 31-Aug-13 14:28:24

You may feel trapped where you are, but you might not be as trapped as you think - I know less than nothing about the legalities of leaving with a child who was born overseas, but it might be worth posting on Legal. Or do you have earning capacity where you live, meaning that you and DD could leave and live independently? Start exploring possibilities as a precursor to making a plan - and start developing as thick a skin as you can to protect yourself from 'D'H's nastiness, not feed it, etc.. Good luck!

ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 14:46:05

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.
It would certainly be a relief to be away from him but I really do want it to work, particularly for DD.
But when I think about his behaviour I just don't know how its possible.

Just had a close family member who I am very fond of and spent a lot of time with in my childhood, come and stay with us.
DH told me he despised him being here and was rude to him on several occasions and very cold and frosty with him. When I spoke to him about how this is really upsetting me, well its all my fault for inviting him.
Then his family come and stay and I was told in no uncertain terms" don't ruin this for me and my family" really it was only the week after my family had gone.

How can such an intelligent middle aged person not see what he is saying.
I find it utterly frustarating.

FrancescaBell Sat 31-Aug-13 14:49:31

It won't work because he's abusive.

Exposing your daughter to that isn't a good thing, it's a bad thing.

You're not doing her any favours by staying, so it's better to frame this as you're leaving for her sake as much as your own.

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 14:53:01

But isnt every relationship "abusive" in some way?
By both parties.

And saying dont go to counselling because someone is abusive. That really rules out everyone doesnt it.

FrancescaBell Sat 31-Aug-13 14:59:54

No, not in my experience.

I don't think that most relationships feature a person being rude to houseguests, ignoring, stonewalling, gaslighting, belittling the fellow parent in front of children, refusing to say sorry for bad behaviour or projecting that the other person has issues because of her childhood.

It is a rule of couples counselling that they will not see couples together when abuse either physical or emotional, is suspected.

Fortunately not every relationship is abusive and not every person is abusive, so this very sensible rule does not preclude non-abusive people seeing a counsellor with their non-abusive partners.

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 15:15:14

I am talking about emotional abuse.
Is shouting counted as emotional abuse for example?

Where is this counselling rule?

GoodtoBetter Sat 31-Aug-13 15:28:39

Blimey, yellowballoons you must have had some really SHIT relationships if you think they all involve shouting and emotional abuse? smile

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 15:32:28

No. Not at all.
But how much shouting means emotional abuse?

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 15:33:00

Been happily married for 25 years.

FrancescaBell Sat 31-Aug-13 15:39:44

Why the obsession with shouting? confused

The OP hasn't once used this term.

Maybe if you want to know how much shouting means emotional abuse, it ought to be asked on a thread of your own, as it doesn't seem to be the OP's issue.

Instead, she has chronicled a series of behaviour that is IMO much worse than 'shouting'. She also says herself she recognises it as abuse.

AFAIK it is in the BACP code of practice that couples counselling in abuse situations is a breach of their ethics. I also know Relate won't counsel in domestic violence cases.

GoodtoBetter Sat 31-Aug-13 15:41:46

Sorry, that smiley looks really PA, it was supposed to be a sad face.

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 15:44:47

Can you give me a link please. Had a brief google and nothing has come up about that BACP code of practice.

I just see it all the time on here about people canot have counselling in abuse situations.

So I wanted the evidence, and also what actually is considered abuse.

Otherwise, there have been thousands of MNetters who may have been misled on this important issue.

FrancescaBell Sat 31-Aug-13 15:47:59

I don't have a link. Maybe PM someone who's a counsellor or E mail BACP?

Not really appropriate for this thread though is it?

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 15:59:59

I dont know who is a counsellor!
Will find out from BACP though if no one on MN can answer. [makes me wonder whether the advice is right tbh]. Or whether it is just heresay.
And yes it is very relevant if people on this thread are saying the op is in an abusive relationship, but they couldnt have counselling. Very relevant indeed.

Fairenuff Sat 31-Aug-13 16:05:06

But isnt every relationship "abusive" in some way?

No, absolutely not! Well, at least not in my experience. I haven't been in any abusive relationship. I would consider shouting could be abusive but dh and I don't shout at each other or at our children.

How can such an intelligent middle aged person not see what he is saying

The thing is OP, he can see it, he is choosing to behave like this. Probably because his self esteem is so low that he can't take any criticism at all.

However, he's perfectly happy to dish it out.

You can't fix this. He might be able to address his issues if he went to counselling but, as you say, he doesn't want to do that.

He is in denial. By staying with him and putting up with this you are helping him to continue living like this. Nothing will change unless he changes it. And he's not going to do that unless or until his life is uncomfortable enough for him.

The best shot at making this relationship work is for you to leave him, as he suggests. If he wants you back you can tell him not until he sorts himself out and proves by his actions that he has changed.

That would take at least two years, so you would be looking at a long term separation.

My guess is he would decide it's not worth the effort and look for another unsuspecting woman to attach himself to.

ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 21:02:19

Thank you all and very clearly explained fairenuff.
But Im struggling to accept he won't change and Ive never been so frustrated in my life. Its making me so unhappy.
I've realised nothing that I say will have any positive effects on our marriage. He seems to resent most things I say, but is there really no hope for us. ?

WhiteandGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 21:22:21

I think the 'no councelling if there's abuse' comes from 'Why does he do that' by Lundy Bankroft. He points out that in his experience abusive men use vulnerabilities displayed during councelling to further refine their abuse.

ilovelilos Sat 31-Aug-13 21:32:03

I am determined to talk to him about us and tell him how unhappy I am. My problem is when he turns around everything so I am the problem, I find it very very hard to keep calm. How do I deal with that? Without shouting in frustration.
Thank you

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 21:40:27

You are kidding me WhiteandGreen shock

So it is a MN myth?

If that is true, wow.
So many MNetters been defrauded, if that is the right word.

I would get the book I recommended op, as a starting point.
At least then, you would understand a bit more about what is happening and why.
Then you can decide on your next step.

WhiteandGreen Sat 31-Aug-13 21:49:36

No, I don't think defrauded is the right word.

CharlotteCollinsismovingon Sat 31-Aug-13 22:05:26

Myth? Depends if you think Bancroft knows what he's talking about or not, I suppose. confused

OP, I should think you struggle to stay calm because he is not really listening to you, is he? It sounds like he listens only to tell you you've got it wrong? Or take offence at a perceived insult?

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 22:11:58

But it isnt true is it?

It now seems to be a person in a book saying that counselling doesnt work, or isnt recommended in abusive relationships[whatever that exactly means]

Not counsellors in the uk.

Ieattoomuchcake Sat 31-Aug-13 22:16:25

I don't think this squabble about the counselling advice is particularly helpful to op.

How are you lilo ?

What's your time difference? It's late here and I should sleep. But of course can't.

I think I still need to 'chat' to my DH at some point. Maybe tomorrow. How are things just now?

bunchoffives Sat 31-Aug-13 22:20:18

YB couselling where one person is abusive is not recommended because, as said above, what is said can be used by the abuser - eg fears are expressed which are then played on by the abuser.

In other cases the counsellor can support the abuser and legitimise their manipulative behaviour eg Abuser: I was silent (stonewalling) because I didn't know what to say. Cousellor: You didn't know what to say? It must have hard for you to know how to respond.

If you are curious about what abuse is there are plenty of web resources that define it.

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 22:28:42

But who says it is not recommended bunchoffives. Lundy Bancroft?

Or british counsellors.
And where is it written?

bunchoffives Sat 31-Aug-13 22:29:26

OP
I'm afraid that if your DH is unwilling to talk reasonably or work with you to talk about your problems (or apologise for the ones he's responsible for) there is very little you can do to resolve your problems on your own. It is very draining and demoralising to continue to try to fix your marriage, effectively without your H.

My advice would be to consult a solicitor asap to find out exactly where you stand.

In the meantime it's important that you look after yourself - you sound pretty much at the end of your tether. Firstly, detach, detach, detach. Stop engaging with him. Don't react to him. Sit back and watch how he operates. What are his strategies to wind you up and put you down? How does he go about trying to exercise power and control?

Secondly, get out of the house and away from him as much as possible. Do some things you enjoy. Treat yourself. Listen to your inner voice and keep it nice towards yourself - catch those thoughts that are hard on yourself and stop them. Keep posting.

bunchoffives Sat 31-Aug-13 22:33:42
foolonthehill Sat 31-Aug-13 22:34:30

shellybear.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/what-couplesfamily-therapy-does-for-an-abuser-by-lundy-bancroft/ couples counselling and abusive relationships]]

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1276 Women's Aid's view on couples counselling in Domestic abuse

www.respect.uk.net/data/files/indicators_for_referral_to_couples_work_final.pdf Respects view of couples counselling after attending and abusers programme

Acounselling view of what may be helpful and what may not www.counselling-directory.org.uk/abuse.html

bunchoffives Sat 31-Aug-13 22:36:40

Great minds Fool grin

foolonthehill Sat 31-Aug-13 22:43:25

Dear OP I hope these links are useful to you.

In my experience the Relate counsellor was useless and did not recognise the abusive dynamic even when my husband practically explained to her howhis need for respect and compliance worked (he practically quoted Lundy Bancorft....not that I had read that book then!)

The thing is, however you feel about it...unless HE takes responsibility for himself and for his own attitudes and actions it won't matter who he does or does not speak to, or what you say to him. To change he has to want to change.

My own husband has gone through relate with me, then anger management, stress management, an abusers programme and nearly 2 years of individual counselling....the end result is that he can use the language, talk about change, effort, responsibility, remorse, forgiveness etc....but it has made not one jot of difference to the way he behaves or treats me, our children or the other people around him. His abuse works for him...and he is the only one he can really focus on, the rest of us are just little satellites revolving around his great sun.

We left, 2 years ago, he has fought every step of the way and done stuff that I would never have imagined he was capable of...but despite that we are all so much better.

Only you can decide what is right for you...but as you think and explore I hope you keep posting....because you will see the truth and then you will be able to decide what to do.

foolonthehill Sat 31-Aug-13 22:44:25

grin indeed olives.

I like a nice resource!

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 22:47:04

Thank you for the links both of you.
So basically, couples counselling is not generally recommended.

But obviously individual counselling is.

But this op cannot persuade her husband to go.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for herself to go, and then see if he would attend at a later date?

She may not need many sessions. But he is likely to.
And once she has gone, he has less "excuses".

yellowballoons Sat 31-Aug-13 22:51:24

foolonthehill sad

I am surprised he did all that, if in his heart of hearts, he must have known that he had no intention of changing his behaviour?

foolonthehill Sat 31-Aug-13 22:54:45

How much is intentional...how much programming?
I think he did it because other people paid, other people expected it and he wanted others to see how serious he was about coming home.....

his last threatening missive letter actually told me that he had "jumped through all your hoops" and that now I was morally obliged to let him come back hmm. He does little work and has plenty of time and some very very nice rich friends

OxfordBags Sun 01-Sep-13 00:23:10

OP, why can't you believe he won't change? He's not changed yet, has he? He's getting more entrenched, isn't he - even less likely to change than ever before. As he gets older, he will be getting more and more set in his ways.

This is a lifelong psychological issue he has been carrying, from what you say about his childhood. His life revolves around self-protection, which is why he can never be wrong and everything and everyone else is to blame for the tiniest thing, even to the extent of lying. And when he accuses you of something that does not desceibe but which actually described him, his behaviour, his past, etc., it's all part of that dysfunction: he cannot even deal with taking responsibility secretly wthin himself, he has to transfer his issues onto you. There is a proper psychological term for this, but I can't remember it, sorry.

He isn't going to change. If he was, he would have done. You can't help him - I mean, you can't because nothing has worked,but more importantly, because it is not your responsibility to help or change him. Only he can do it and he doesn't want to.maybe he can't and never will.

Witnessing such frustrating and no doubt sometimes bizarre behaviour and reasoning from her father, and your pain and frustration, and the general abusiveness of him towards you, will be damaging your behaviour. Wthout meaning to scare you, having a parent that denies or twists reality is a key factor behind many personality disorders and MH issues. By staying, you are both training your daughter to be abused herself as an adult.

Would you want her to be treated like this? No? Then you need to ask yourself 2 simple questions: why are you keeping her in a situation that is a training ground for future victimhood (yes, it's his fault, but you can chose to remove you and DD from his abuse) and if this treatment would be horrific if done to her as an adult, how come you think it is okay for you to suffer?

LTB.

Isetan Sun 01-Sep-13 00:30:15

There aren't any magic combinations of words that you could say that would "make him see how much he is hurting you and your child". It sounds like he has a need, bordering on the pathological, to have someone to blame for all that he judges to be wrong in his world and his favoured person of choice is you. You haven't earned this position, it has been bestowed upon you and therefore your influence in this circumstance is very limited.

For those posters who suggested the OP goes back to her country of birth, if her current country of residence and the desired/ destined country of residence are both signatories to the Hague Convention on Child Abduction then it doesn't matter where the child was born. The courts where the child habitually live will have jurisdiction on child residence matters. Failure to secure the father's or the local courts permission could lead to the father demanding the child's return.

Nice back-pedalling yellowballoons

You couldn't have googled very hard because I had already also found all those links posted above in about 3 minutes.

It would be nice of you to apologise to the OP for trying to derail or at least hijack her thread.

OP, when you talk to him, would it help you to have your points written down, and even some reminders of how you want to act / come across e.g. "stay calm", "take a deep breath" etc.

I am afraid you have to prepare yourself for him not to hear you though.

CCTVmum Sun 01-Sep-13 03:48:26

look up narcassistic personality disorder. Their is a man who has NPD and writes and explains it well....Dr ? claims to be in it. Sadly cant think of his name as sounds Romanian etc but in USA?

Your husband cannot cope with being wrong so instinctivily believes what has happened through his eyes only. he will truly believe his own mind and confince you that you are a liar!

Any childhood issues with parents?

Counselling will not work as he will not believe you and only how he sees things which can be very distorted.

If you feed a narc so praise them up pretend to agree with everything then that will help keep them happy. for a quiet life but they say t hey are emotional vampires?

Remove emotion, talk factual and keep to agendas. I agree with Oxfordbags re you wont change him...he cant see it as no insight..if a disorder of personality their is no treatment as such esp when the person themselves cant see any problems as no insight.

CCTVmum Sun 01-Sep-13 04:11:20

found the Dr. It is called Selflove

yellowballoons Sun 01-Sep-13 08:41:21

I neither tried to derail or hijack the thread.
I had already given her my posts to try and help her, and what I was trying to find out was important for her too.

I had found the "medical help and treatment" link. But I did not find the info about british counsellors. And counsellors must have some sort of uk regulated body. And as we all know, a internet website should hardly be relied on compared to a national regulated body.

ilovelilos Sun 01-Sep-13 09:13:41

Thank you to everyone for your help, advice and support.
I will reread all the thread, some very useful info.
I will see what today brings, Im out at lunchtime but will repost later.
X

StickyProblem Sun 01-Sep-13 09:17:52

We don't all know anything of the sort yellowballoons. If all anyone needed was a national regulated body, why would anyone post on a forum? People post here for advice from people who have been through what they are going through. From individuals, who generously share their personal stories to help others.

Best of luck OP.

yellowballoons Sun 01-Sep-13 09:42:35

Glad the thread has been useful op.

A national regulated body should be a reliable source of information.

If people rely on one internet website, that someone has posted up, or one book, then that at best, is suspect.

WhiteandGreen Sun 01-Sep-13 10:13:43

yellow you just seemed very hostile and angry about mumsnet - calling good advice a 'myth' and saying that thousands of people were being defrauded.

yellowballoons Sun 01-Sep-13 10:26:43

When I questioned the advice, as surely people should from time to time, I was informed that it may have been from 1 book. And I wasnt being given more reliable links.

So wrong important advice may have been repeated over and over on MN. So it needed checking out.

Checking out sources in life is important.

itsonlysubterfuge Sun 01-Sep-13 10:33:05

Maybe you could step-up a secret video camera and leave it recording, then when he starts acting unreasonable, you can show it back to him, maybe that will open up his eyes to his behavior? Maybe it will be enough to convince he needs to open up to someone and talk to them about his feelings.

bunchoffives Sun 01-Sep-13 11:29:25

YB I think it is sensible to question accepted wisdom sometimes, but not perhaps on someone else's thread. As another poster said, it would have been more considerate to start a thread of your own and let the OP's thread be about what she wanted it to be about.

Some of us have been through couple counselling with an emotional abuser and know first-hand what a destructive and upsetting experience that can be. We don't need a 'regulated body' to tell us that's it's never a good idea although would have been useful at the time !

OxfordBags Sun 01-Sep-13 11:38:28

YB, your posts are not contributing anything to supporting the OP. You are derailing things. If all anyone needed to help them in horrible situations was a national regulated body, then most online forums, most phone helplines, many charities, many self-help groups, etc., would be totally unnecessary. MN has helped many women leave horibbly abusive and dangerous relationships when the police and other bodies have failed to. Think about that.

ilovelilos Sun 01-Sep-13 21:00:24

Been out most of the day, just returned.
Oh dear, a serious incident for me involving Dh putting DD at risk with a potentially very serious health issue, ( sorry it sounds a bit vague but I dont want to go in to details).
I was terriblly upset he had done this and obviously wanted to talk to him about it.
He said everything should be ok and I should realise that he wouldnt hurt DD deliberately. It has left me in a complete state of worry and upset which I told him. I said it would be helpful if he apologised to me for causing such worry. But no, no chance. He apparently doesnt need to apologise, And no remorse what so ever for me now feeling terrible.
What an awful trait it is not to be able to apologise, not at all attractive. And Im sure he is getting worse.
And this incident regarding my daughter feels like the worst of them all for me.
Where tomgo from here??

PoppyField Sun 01-Sep-13 21:03:49

YB - I was one of the thousands of MNers given the advice of not getting joint counselling with an abusive partner. However, I still went ahead with Relate because I wanted to feel sure that I had tried everything to save my relationship - and because I felt that there must be something positive that could come out of it. So, like you, I often question commonly-held tropes or 'advice'. Like bunchoffives attests though, it was the most upsetting experience: destructive, vitriolic and vicious. The counsellor really should have stopped it in its tracks as my STBXH launched one vile diatribe after another. It was another form of EA. He was on a roll, week after week. It was not a safe place for me - which, surely, is the bare minimum that counselling should provide.

Please don't come on here and launch hand-grenades masquerading as innocent-sounding questions. I am sure all 'British Counsellors' would prefer not to exacerbate abuse meted out to vulnerable women. Just because advice is advocated by Mumsnetters, does not make it a myth. Makes it tried, tested and highly credible in my book.

yellowballoons Sun 01-Sep-13 21:12:50

Do you think that he is becoming ill in some way, ilovelilos?

ilovelilos Sun 01-Sep-13 21:16:41

Um, good question. i am totally amazed by his behaviour, in fact can't believe its not obvious to him also, its that bad.

But I can't leave without trying everything. But I don't know how. Never felt so frustrated in my life. A simple heartfelt apology could make everything easier. Why is that so hard for him.
Thank you all.

Ieattoomuchcake Sun 01-Sep-13 21:24:23

Hi lilo just wanted to say I'm thinking if you. We've had a fairly rubbish day too.

From an outsider point of view I'm thinking the issue with your daughters health may be the straw that broke the camels back. But I am chickening out of thoughts of leaving my DH so I completely understand its not as easy as that

yellowballoons Sun 01-Sep-13 21:30:28

You can go to a GP, with or without him, and discuss things about him. Though the GP wouldnt be able to discuss his confidential medical records.

ilovelilos Sun 01-Sep-13 21:31:48

Thank you ieatcake.
For me it has definitely been the worst thing, the incident involving my daughter. I can't bear him next to me to be honest, how dear he not apologise for upsetting and worrying me so much.
And the minute my daughter does anything wrong, well he says she needs to apologise. I can't bear it.

Hope you are ok too ieat cake, its not easy is it.

Ieattoomuchcake Sun 01-Sep-13 21:46:56

I am thinking of going for some individual counselling.

But anxious about telling DH about it, what he would think/say. What an idiot I can be!

Hand holding for you. Hope tomorrow is a better day

ilovelilos Sun 01-Sep-13 21:51:45

Are you in a country where you fluently speak the language ieatcake?

OxfordBags Sun 01-Sep-13 22:47:34

OP, how do you think that is going to affect your DD, being made to apologise for the slightest little thing, whilst her own father refuses to ever apologise, even for potentially risking her life?! You better start saving up for the lifestime of therapy she'll require for the mental health problems that scenario will give her.

Him not apologising over risking her health would be a deal breaker for me (actually, him risking it full stop would be my deal breaker). That he doesn't want toos disgusting enough, but that he doesn't think he needs to is sociopathic. And it's also very troubling because he knows that social convention expects someone to apologise (even if they don't mean it) in situations like that, and yet he still thinks that he shouldn't - he is superior to mere mortals who should apologise, and you and your daughter are so beneath him that you don't merit basic common decency.

Anyone who could be so blasé about his own child's health and safety, even life, is abnormal and in need of help. Not your help, professional help. He is not safe for your Dd to be around, it would seem.

He was clearly messed up by his own upbringing, don't let him make that a legacy for your own child.

Ieattoomuchcake Mon 02-Sep-13 09:47:20

lilo I have a friend / acquaintance who has the most dysfunctional relationship with her child's father (they aren't together but he nips in and out etc). And I forever telling her to think about her daughter. About what she's showing her - how relationships should be, how a man is entitled to treat a woman.

It's very pot calling kettle though. I'm doing similar to my dd so I can hardly talk.

I know it's hard. But I am finding it useful to focus on that. Is this what I want to teach dd. and how would I feel if he grew up and had the same marriage / husband as I have.

I'd be gutted for her.

Fairenuff Mon 02-Sep-13 11:51:00

ilovelilos be very careful.

He is escalating his behaviour.

He has put your child at risk.

He is pushing to see how much you will take.

You did speak to him about it but were very quickly 'put in your place'. By staying with this man you allowing him to treat you and your dd like this.

You are giving him the message that you accept this behaviour.

The more you accept, the further it will escalate.

I think you should start to make plans to leave. Get all your important documents together, passports, bank statements, etc. Pack an emergency bag for yourself and dd and ask a friend or relative to look after it for you.

Your dd is at risk if you stay with him.

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Mon 02-Sep-13 11:59:57

I'm not sure what else you can try, given that he refuses to simply apologise for anything and that is the very thing you want.

I think you should tell him that this event with your DD has been the final straw, not because it happened - everyone makes mistakes - but because he would not accept that anything he did was wrong. And you can't go on living with someone who thinks you are always wrong and he is always right.

Don't bother looking for counsellors to justify this decision (they might be worth seeing but not for that) - you don't need that. Your feeling that this is unbearable is valid in itself. Take Oxford's advice about and start to get your stuff together.

ilovelilos Mon 02-Sep-13 18:27:03

DH just in from work, Im still very shaken by the health incident yesterday. I showed him an article about it to highlight my concerns. He's not said a word to me since, even when I made him his dinner.
Oh dear here we go again

Fairenuff Mon 02-Sep-13 18:48:41

Of course it's here we go again lilos, and it always will be.

What do you not understand?

He will always be like this. Always.

What are you going to do, put up with it?

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Mon 02-Sep-13 19:43:11

Things aren't going to change. Do you want to be 'wrong' for the rest of your life? He will happily enforce that if you continue to take it.

CharlotteCollinsismovingon Mon 02-Sep-13 21:44:55

The thing with "not leaving till you've tried everything" is that you are accepting responsibility for fixing the problem in your marriage. This problem (and it is a big one) is not yours to fix.

It is not your responsibility to change his behaviour where his behaviour is unacceptable. And he will not thank you for trying.

Which leaves you with one option: waiting till he sees sense. sad

I've been through this, too - it's totally frustrating, isn't it?

CookieDoughKid Mon 02-Sep-13 21:57:03

Hi OP. You need to realise... If you haven't sussed it out, that you have almost zero chance to fix your dh / relationship. It has got to come from him and you have both want to fix it.

You can write here everyday and mumsnet will always be here but it won't change your marriage. It'll only give you better coping strategies and not a solution ( until you break).

Things with my dh went from bad to worse last year and he refused to seek help with his depression and anger. I finally got the courage to leave him. Cue drama. Dh himself sought help and initiated counselling after he realized what he had lost (his family). Men can be very blinkered, my dh freely admits to it. For 1 year I absolutely enjoyed the freedom and now we are back together, its like when we first met. Really in love and respectful to each other.

Sometimes words are not enough and the only way to change things, is to take action. You need to be brave.

OxfordBags Tue 03-Sep-13 00:41:29

I would not be making dinner for a man who refuses to talk to me, especially about something so important.

Here you go again... Until the next time that his fixation with never being wrong leads to your DD's death? Sorry to be shocking, but if he risked her seriously this time and won't address it or learn from it, then you need to be terrified.

ilovelilos Tue 03-Sep-13 07:54:02

Thank you all again.
I hear what you are saying and I agree.
Still no apology for the health issue and no recognition that he has done wrong.
A friend popped around yesterday with flowers for me after hearing what had happened.
when DH found out he said with scorn that she had only done that because she saw how upset I was. Um, yes..
But he has agreed to go to the doctors to get this health issue for my daughter checked out. But still no remourse. That drives me insane.
So I said this morning, " would you do it again". He said no but only because of the strife its created within the marriage. Nothing to do with poor DD.
NO responsibility what so ever for his actions. No possible admission that he has made a huge mistake. Aaagggggh!!!

nickelbabe Tue 03-Sep-13 11:15:29

and that won't change.

Fairenuff Tue 03-Sep-13 14:11:17

Why do you keep expecting a different response from him?

Just from what you've posted, even I know that's not going to happen and I don't know your dh from Adam.

You know, they do say that doing the same thing and expecting different results is a sign of 'madness'. Do you feel that this is 'driving you mad' for want of a better experession?

Listen to your gut. The minute you tell him it's over he will change, he will say that he'll get help, blah, blah, blah.

But as long as you accept it you are actually enabling this behaviour.

You say you don't like it but I'm not so sure. If you really didn't like it you'd do something about it.

P'raps you just wanted a bit of a whinge and some sympathy?

yellowballoons Tue 03-Sep-13 17:46:38

Do you think that underneath he knows he has done wrong behaviour. I think he does.

Has he ever said sorry. Did he used to?

Fairenuff is right in that something has to change for the situation to change.
Have you ordered the book for example?
Unless something changes, he isnt going to change is he?

LumpySpacePrincessOhMyGlob Tue 03-Sep-13 18:10:53

If you are unhappy with the situation then you are going to have to make some changes.

Hoping and wishing he will change, become the man you married, is not going to cut it.

I speak from bitter experience.

foolonthehill Tue 03-Sep-13 19:25:08

at this point I would encourage you to take a step back and think.

Maya Angelou said "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.”

Most of us who have been in relationships like yours have failed to do this but the light does dawn eventually. The question then is not what will he do to change it (because YOU cannot decide that he has to change, only he can do that) but what will you do (because ultimately you cannot change the man but you can change your response, your tolerance and ultimately your life)

she also said “Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.” and I would add child.

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Tue 03-Sep-13 19:54:13

He is not going to apologise, and he is not going to take responsibility. I doubt he ever would have, but now he knows you are so keen to hear it, he is digging his heels in ever more firmly. As he is never wrong, he is determined to give in.

There are three outcomes here, ultimately.

1) He admits he was wrong and you talk about it properly (this will be the day after hell freezes over, I'd say)

2) He won't admit he's wrong, you decide that you just can't put up with this any longer and tell him so. What follows could be anything from counselling to the end of the marriage. But it is the end of you always being wrong and him never apologising, if only because you won't be together re-enacting the same dynamic over and over.

3) He won't admit he's wrong, and you don't want to rock the boat too much, so you eventually just stop referring to it, suppress your unhappy feelings, and things settle down as normal where he is never wrong and you are always the one apologising. With this one, expect a repeat of the whole cycle over and over again, probably until your DD is grown up, if you let it.

Which situation do you see yourself in, 10 years from now?

LittleMissMarker Thu 05-Sep-13 12:29:27

He said ... I should realise that he wouldnt hurt DD deliberately.

Truthfully, do you realise that? I trust my DH with my DS as much as I trust myself – he might make the odd minor cock-up but then so might I, and if he accidentally did something really dangerous then he would feel just as horrified and as self-blaming as I would. But it doesn’t sound like your husband feels that way.

So do you think he’s not really that trustworthy? Perhaps you are so focussed on getting an apology because then you could tell yourself he wont do that again, or anything else equally bad, in future. But somewhere you suspect that maybe he will? He might not do it deliberately but he could do it carelessly, especially if he’s an extremely self-centered person who never apologises and who often does what he wants without thought of the consequences for the people in his care.

ilovelilos Thu 05-Sep-13 20:49:02

Thank you for the continued support.
Health issue problem continues. We are going to the doctors tomorrow, together. He has admitted he did wrong, said an unconvincing apology, but denies he knew it was wrong at the time. I believe he did know at the time but he is very arrogant and didn't think and now wont admit it. And he is trying to compare it to other incidents with other families, to take the limelight from him.

I really don't know what the future holds but I need to try and convince him to try everything to sort this out before we split. I do realise this may be impossible but feel we have a lot to loose.

I have had no remorse from him what so ever, in fact quite the contrary, he is angry and off with me. Ive told him he needs to show remorse and he actually asked me 'for how long?'
It is SO obvious he has a lot of baggage from his childhood, and has never admitted any wrongs never mind apologies. I understand that but this is make or break and he needs to act fast, but he doesnt seem willing. Always protecting his corner, like when he was a child.

And if its not properly resolved, this is something that cant be swept under the carpet. Otherwise it will keep rearing its ugly head.

Fairenuff Thu 05-Sep-13 20:51:50

It will keep rearing it's head because he is in denial.

Before he can confront this, he has to admit it exists. You could spend the rest of your life trying to get this through to him.

But, hey, it's your life.

OxfordBags Thu 05-Sep-13 21:41:10

OP, have you considered the fact that he doesn't actually feel remorse? And therefore doesn't know how to show it or see why it is necessary? He could be a sociopath or psychopath (he sounds like one of those). Now,before you laugh this off, please be aware that the majority of people with those conditions are not the serial killers and monsters depicted in the films and on tv, etc., but are actually completely normal people, with families and jobs and so on.

He could have baggage and still be a sociopath. Or his childhood could have led to him developing those tendencies. The point is, you are presuming that he does secretly feel remorse, and knows when he has done wrong and should apologise, but is just too messed up by his childhood to be able to. But he really does sound like he neither knows nor cares if and when he should feel remorse. The fact he appears to feel picked-on about being required to feel remorse fits with the sociopath profile, as things like remorse or empathy are traits that feel to them that others are making up or exaggerating to harass them.

Even if the above is pure bullshit, WHY would you want to stay with a man who doesn't believe he should show remorse, much less appear to feel it, for risking his own child's life?! It is so, so freaky and immoral, and how can you ever trust him again?!

ilovelilos Thu 05-Sep-13 21:49:08

Intresting, thank you Oxford.
Will definetly consider this.
Im clutching at straws to make him see sense, is there any mileage in showing him this thread?

Katisha Thu 05-Sep-13 21:51:19

I think oxfordbags has it to be honest.

foolonthehill Thu 05-Sep-13 21:52:15

no...keep it for you.

there are plenty of place he can look for help...there are not so many places where people have your back.

www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html profile of a sociopath

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Thu 05-Sep-13 21:55:11

No, don't show him the thread. He doesn't sound to me like someone who would accept being told by a bunch of internet strangers than he is wrong. Especially when he won't listen to his wife.

OxfordBags Thu 05-Sep-13 22:17:31

OP, if your DD's life being at risk doesn't make him see sense, I can't see how ANYTHING is going to, much less a load of female strangers criticising him online. You simply aren't going to get him to see sense.

And it's not about trying to make him see sense, anyway. That's you tsking responsibility for his behaviour and emotions. The only way he will see sense is for himself. He doesn't WANT to show remorse, he doesn't SEE why he should show it - and the reason will, chillingly, be because he simply doesn't FEEL it.

As I said upthread, what is actually very sinister is that he must be aware of social conventions that expect people to show remorse even if they secretly don't feel it, and he won't even follow these. That shows that he truly feels that he is beyond reproach, that normal rules of behaviour don't apply to him. It's sinister, is what it is.

If he wanted to show remorse, if he could give a shit, he would show it. This goes beyond a problem childhood. This is no doubt a pathology, a mental illness, and probably untreatable.

He has shown that he will risk your DD's life, and still not care. Staying with him means risking her life. How can you live with knowing that and staying with him?!

Don't show him this. He will, ironically, use it to make you feel guilt and apologise to him (for sharing your problems).

Jux Fri 06-Sep-13 01:04:08

Oh no, for heaven's sake don't show him this. Don't even mention MN in relation to him. He'll mutter about nests of vipers and bitter women, dismiss everything, and then any time you try to exert a bit of control or insist on being heard he'll accuse you of getting ideas from your manhating friends on MN.

I am worried by his response to his error re your dd's health. He's gone from "so what, it's all right", to "it's causing me bother at home" to "ok, I done wrong". What bothers me is that the last has happened just before an appointment with a gp to talk about your dd's health problem, and I wonder how much that has to do with his admission. (Am I being unnecessarily distrustful to feel that he knew even at the time that what he was doing was the wrong thing?)

Fairenuff Fri 06-Sep-13 19:25:58

I am worried about your response to him risking your dd's health actually OP. I think you are focussing on the wrong person here.

It is your dd that you should be showing concern for.

LittleMissMarker Fri 06-Sep-13 20:02:08

I think you are asking us to help you find a way for you to fix up your marriage, to make your marriage safe for your daughter and comfortable for you? But I don’t see how we can. Some things just can’t humanly be done, and from what you’ve said, there is nothing you can do to make your marriage work properly. There’s no fix for the way your husband behaves. You can’t make him want to change himself, you have already tried for 10 years and he has not responded. I’m really sorry, it’s an awful thing to have to face. But for your daughter’s sake you need to accept that “trying everything” to make your marriage work is no longer compatible with doing everything to keep your daughter safe. And keeping your daughter safe should be the top priority of all.

wildspinning Fri 06-Sep-13 20:30:36

Your daughter is at risk if you stay with this man.

Ergo, you must leave.

He will never, ever change.

Best of luck and hugs to you OP.

Jux Fri 06-Sep-13 21:36:45

How were things at the doc, ilovelilos?

PoppyField Sat 07-Sep-13 10:41:30

Hi OP,

I agree with very sage words from Jux, LittleMissMarker and I totally chime with CookieDoughKid - although, happily, she seems to have found a way of changing things for the better. My H did not change at all and continued to be angry, blaming and controlling until I kicked him out.

I understand where you are as you are left scratching your head, thinking 'I cannot believe he is behaving like this with no conscience?'. It is that feeling of 'How can someone who loves me behave like this? How can he be so cruel and not see it?'. And you boil it down to 'I need an apology' as that's the only way you can see that things can start to get better in a humane way.

I was fixated on an apology for many months. I thought that had to be the starting point for mending our relationship - as I thought I cannot be sure he respects me unless he takes that step. What an apology would signify would be: 1. Recognition that he has behaved appallingly 2. Recognition that this denoted a lack of respect for you and severely damaged your relationship 3. A sense that he is sorry, that he values the relationship and values YOU and that he will be trying in future to make good and treat you properly.

Unfortunately, this probably won't happen. What you may come to realise is that he does not feel remorse. He does not recognise that he is treating you badly - as Oxford Bags has pointed out. He allows himself to treat you this way because he sees you as less than him, as someone he does not respect. He cannot be made to see that his behaviour is shocking and unacceptable. He does not respect you - so you, particularly, will not be able to persuade him of this.

Like other posters - I do not know your DH from Adam - but his pattern follows very closely that of other Emotional Abusers we have seen here. He is spinning you round and round. He doesn't care. You have to look at why an apology is not forthcoming - you will come to the awful conclusion that he does not care about you. It is shattering - but the realisation will enable you to see the landscape of your relationship differently, and you will be able to move forward out of the fog.

It is very hard to accept you are in an abusive relationship. Hanging on for an apology only keeps you in limbo.

Good luck. I really feel for you. It will get better as you move onto more certain ground.

ilovelilos Sat 07-Sep-13 11:37:03

Thank you all, it really is a support to receive your messages.
We went to the doctors and my daughter needs a blood test to see if any damage has been done. So Im in a continual state of upset about that and will be until we hopefully have the all clear.

In the meantime I can totally see my DH struggling with remourse.
He has no idea. He bought me a present yesterday, after I suggested he might. We were in a nice shop after the doctors.
But straight after he said he felt like he was being fined.

Fairenuff Sat 07-Sep-13 12:02:20

I was just wondering lilos, if it had been you that caused the hurt to your dd, would he be showing more concern for her now?

It seems odd that he is not worried about her.

PoppyField Sat 07-Sep-13 13:10:21

I'm wondering why you try to coax presents out of him? How does this make you feel better?

What does such a present, given under those circumstances mean? It obviously doesn't mean what an unsolicited present would mean - which is a show of spontaneous affection or a burst of 'ooh lilos would really love this, I must get it for her!'. You may wish that were true, and maybe you wish to have 'the goods' as a way of pretending to yourself that he got you something off his own bat. But in reality, he didn't get you a present. He got something else to go on about. He is obnoxious.

Yes he should have remorse, but he doesn't have any. Yes he should want to please you and maybe buy you a present, but he doesn't want to. He is definitely not feeling it. Please don't pretend to yourself that he is. He is abusive and controlling. It feels as if you are minimising this by thinking he will prove he loves you by buying you a present. Sorry to be so harsh, but you seem to be papering over the cracks.

LemonDrizzled Sat 07-Sep-13 13:32:32

Hi Lilo I lived with a man like your DH for 24 years and eventually realised he was EA and would never change. He turned me into an angry resentful and deranged madwoman.

Over on the EA Support thread there are some lovely women who have been through what you are struggling with. Some are still in, some are out and some are planning to get away. You will find useful links and much handholding there.

I finally realised I would never get any acknowledgement my H was wrong because he needed to be perfect to keep up his very shaky self image. I had to take the blame so he didn't. My place was in the wrong.
I actually feel sorry for him now. I am happy without him and have recovered my calm sunny personality while he is still wracked with self doubt and looking for someone to blame for everything that goes wrong.

Oh and we went for separate and joint counselling and Relate nearly destroyed me! Don't do it!

Jux Sat 07-Sep-13 13:34:31

So was he affected by anything the doctor said? Is he bothered that your dd now has to have a blood test?

ilovelilos Sat 07-Sep-13 13:40:27

He tells me he is very upset and frightened about the results. He doesnt show any emotion where as I got a bit hysterical I must say.
He tells me he is practical and just needs to get on with life in order to cope.

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 16:31:42

You demean yourself by wanting a present for being upset, or in lieu of any sort of real apology or remorse. You teach him that he can get away with not feeling responsible for having done wrong. You are enabling that lack of remorse. The fact that he said he felt fined just further re-iterates that he doesn't understand that he should feel remorse, is resentful about being made to show it, and above all, DOES NOT FEEL REMORSE.

Also, why are you wanting a gift to compensate for your hurt feelings when he endangered the life of your child?!?!?!?! Forgive me, but your feelings are the most important thing here, the safety if your child is. You are just not focusing on the right priorities here! I know you are hurt and shocked for her, and love her, but his actions and lack of remorse (which means lack of empathy too) are the danger to her. He won't learn to not endanger her next time by getting you a trinket.

Of course, he won't learn to not endanger her again, full stop. If he was capable of learning or even wanted to learn, he would never have done wht he did to endanger her in the first place. His obvious MH issues mean that he will continue to endanger her, oerhaos in other ways, but there it is. The best indicator of future outcomes is oast behaviour: he has never felt or shown remorse, and he has no interest in her safety. Why are you outting her life at risk in the vain hope that he will miraculously change?!

And him not showing emotion and being practical are all parts of this sociopathic personality he is demonstrating - he doesn't feel normal emotions or care about stuff, but luckily for him, we live in a society were the milder aspects of sociopathy, like this, mirror some lesser but socially-normal characteristics ascribed to males.

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 16:35:53

Feelings are not the most important, not are, sorry.

LittleMissMarker Sat 07-Sep-13 17:18:53

OxfordBags’ question about whether he has an interest in your DD’s safety is a critical one. And this isn’t about anything he says, it’s more important to look very hard at what he does. OK, he may be right about being a practical person. So does he show an interest in DD’s safety in practical ways, does he make a big effort to keep her safe whether anyone is watching him or not, does he try to protect her whether anyone is going to blame him or not? If so, then whatever his emotional limits may be he is at least not a physical danger to her. But if he does not take a practical interest in her safety, if he is careless or negligent unless someone catches him at it, then he is a real physical danger to her.

(And I am sorry even to ask you about it, these must be such hard things to think about someone you have committed yourself to and been with for so long.)

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 17:53:12

ilovelilos. Your post on thurs at 20.49pm confuses me.

you say he has "never admitted any wrongs never mind apologies", yet in that same post you say
"He has admitted he did wrong gave me an unconvincing apology".

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 17:54:14

OxfordBags, am I right in thinking you said somewhere on MN that you are a Christian?

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 17:58:02

ilovelilos. He is sorry. He just cant say it. You need to teach him to say it, without getting any backlash from yourself. Any at all. Then he may feel safe to say it.
I hope you ordered or borrowed the book I recommended.

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 18:33:39

yellowballoons, quite the opposite, I am a miltant Atheist. Do you ask for reasons relevant to helping the OP?

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 18:44:03

I did yes. But questions I was going to ask are definitely not relevant now.

Fairenuff Sat 07-Sep-13 19:15:52

You need to teach him to say it

How would you suggest she goes about that then yellow?

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 19:18:20

As per my post of 17.58pm

Fairenuff Sat 07-Sep-13 19:21:08

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 17:58:02

ilovelilos. He is sorry. He just cant say it. You need to teach him to say it, without getting any backlash from yourself. Any at all. Then he may feel safe to say it.
I hope you ordered or borrowed the book I recommended.

This post? Sorry, where does it say what to do? confused

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 19:23:05

Think of him as a scared emotionally wounded puppy that you got from a rescue centre.

He is emotionally speaking, cowering under the table and doing a poop or two.

He wants to come out and wag his tale and join in, but he is much too scared.

He has to be coaxed, encouraged and taught that all is safe for him to say things and apologise without repercussions.

This all assumes that you have the patience and will to do it.

It is worth a try in my opinion.

And I came back onto the thread because you do seem like you are not going to leave him anytime soon.

Fairenuff Sat 07-Sep-13 19:25:02

Or, if the puppy puts your dd's life in danger, have it put to sleep.

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 19:40:42

Yellow, he's had over a decade f the OP bending over backwards to understand and tolerate this shit, never mind try to encourage himand make him feel emotionally safe to start to show remorse, etc., and it's not happened now. Even when he has almost accidentally killed their child, he is not showing remorse, and, moreover, he is resentful at even being expected to do so. This is not a naughty puppy, this is a grown man incapable of caring about anyone else.

The focus should not be on helping him. The OP is not responsible for his feelings, actions and reactions. This man could've let his daughter DIE and still doesn't appear to inderstand why he might need to apologise. The emphasis here needs to be on protecting a small child from a man incapable of not only behaving normslly, but incapable of wanting to behave normally.

Too much 'poor misunderstood ickle menz, so useless like puppies and babies' and not enough expecting grown adults to have some level of normal human decency and emotion.

I'd still like to know what your questions were, Btw.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 19:41:08

The op has to work out what she thinks about him and her dds health issue.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 19:50:13

YB your recent responses on this thread are some of the most unhelpful (and potentially dangerous) ones I have ever seen on MN.

This abusive man is a "scared puppy cowering under the table" and Op has it within her power to coax him out ?

What absolute shite.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 19:52:19

OP I am utterly shocked that you would angle for presents from a man like this. Please wake up. How did you think him buying you some trinket would make up for endangering your daughter ?

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 19:56:36

And whilst she takes her sweet time, he accidentally kills her Dd next time... ?

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 20:01:52

I haven't scrolled to see how old your dd is, but having blood tests is a traumatic procedure for a small child. Perhaps she has them regularly as part of her condition, I don't know you haven't said

But if I was the direct cause of it, or stood by while my partner was, I would be having a very strong word with myself.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 20:05:41

"scared emotionally wounded puppy" was what I wrote.
and "emotionally speaking, cowering under the table.

You misquoted me.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 20:07:13

No, I didn't. I paraphrased you. And I was correct in my interpretation of what you said.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 20:12:04

When paraphrasing, you can only put exact words into inverted commas. Else it is misquoting.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 20:13:11

You were not correct in your interpretation either.
Everyone can see what you wrote and how you wrote it.

YoniTime Sat 07-Sep-13 20:18:36

Why are you comparing a grown man who has endangered his child's health to a little scared puppy?

CharlotteCollinsismovingon Sat 07-Sep-13 20:31:18

Yeah, AF, you should've said, "scared [...] puppy [...] cowering under the table"

hmm

grin

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 20:31:48

emotionally, he is puppy size.
emotionally, he is about a 5 year old.

CharlotteCollinsismovingon Sat 07-Sep-13 20:32:58

Then emotionally he is not capable of being an adult life-partner.

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Sat 07-Sep-13 20:33:19

I don't see how a man who refuses to ever apologise and accept he is wrong or has made a mistake is remotely like a scared puppy. He sounds more like an arrogant twit to me.

PoppyField Sat 07-Sep-13 20:37:50

I think yellowballoons is really yellowbuffoons. Is she for real?

'Course she ain't helpin' even with all that fantastic lil' puppy poopin' under that table an'all.

Instead this is turning into a version of The Waltons crossed with Southern Comfort. Yip de yip eye ay!

scallopsrgreat Sat 07-Sep-13 20:38:52

Why are you so invested in minimising this man's behaviour yellowballoons?

ilovelilos I am another one who can't understand why you'd want a present off this man given what he has done. However, I do think your perspective is skewed. This isn't your fault. This is what happens in an abusive relationship.

What do you actually get out of this relationship? What messages is your DD getting? If your DD were putting up with this behaviour from her partner would you want that for her? I think you need to stand back from your relationship and look at this as if you were seeing it through our eyes.

Have you thought if writing a diary if every time he makes you or your DD feel like shit or does something unacceptable? I bet it is more often than you think. It might help the process of digesting what this man is doing to you.

How supportive is your family back home? If you rang them and told them what was going on would they be on the first plane out to take you home or would they be telling you to put up and shut up (or something in between)? Because if they would be supportive then you may want their help at some point.

Please just listen to the wise women on here who have been where you are and can see him for what he is.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 21:00:51

Charlotte, not as he is, no. Hence the training one way or another is the only option for the op to be able to have a chance of happiness with him if she wants it.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 21:09:09

"training" a grown man hmm

not to be recommended

CharlotteCollinsismovingon Sat 07-Sep-13 21:13:45

Even training a puppy only to be undertaken by someone with a good deal of expertise and a relationship with the puppy based on trust and obedience.

And the parallels with the grown man are....?

sad yellow, I'm not sure where your ideas have come from, but I don't think they're at all realistic.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 21:13:47

Some of us marrieds and I presume those with partners, do it all the time! grin
Seriously!

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 21:15:04

Reply to AF, but I think Charlotte too.

scallopsrgreat Sat 07-Sep-13 21:17:17

This man doesn't want her to be happy yellowballoons. If he did he wouldn't treat her like shit. It really is that simple. As a result this is never going to be a happy relationship for ilovelilos.

And 'training' a grown up to be nice to you, one who is supposed to be your equal and also cherish you, is flogging a dead horse.

Fairenuff Sat 07-Sep-13 21:19:00

I don't train my dh.

He was already fully housetrained when I met him. Otherwise I wouldn't have been interested in marrying an emotionally stunted man who was not able to function as an adult male.

OP when you started this thread it was about you.

Now it's not. It's about your dd.

How much did he spend on the gift? What price did you put on your dd's life?

And are you satisfied with that?

scallopsrgreat Sat 07-Sep-13 21:19:22

I have never 'trained' my partner in anything least of all to be nice to me and treat me with respect. That I take as the very basic requirements of me being in a relationship with them.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 21:29:54

I guess I "trained" my DH to put the toilet seat back down

Not really on a par with "don't abuse me" and "don't endanger our daughter's life" is it, really ?

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 21:42:58

I didn't train my DH. A grown adult of either sex does not need training. Any one that does, should not be in an adult relationship until they have had sufficient therapy to make them fit to be in one without fucking with the lives of his partner and children, if they go on to have them.

How can anyone respect an adult that needs training?! If someone needs training, then they should remove themselves from the relationship/family, until they have received the help required to make them at least an adequate member of that family.

Moreover, how can anyone respect themself for being with someone who needs training?! How can you like and respect yourself so little to settle for such a crap twat?! Or do women who go for these men just have some dysfunctional urge to control, save and change? <shudder>

And most importantly, HOW and WHY would someone - you, yellowballoons - be so invested in trying to minimise and excuse the behaviour of someone whose very disordered and selfish personality has made him a crappy partner, at best, and has led to him actually endangering the life of his DD?! This is not the first thread I have seen you on, trying to derail it with minimising, excusing, trying to make women responsible for the behaviour of men who are a danger (even if 'only' emotionally) to them or their family, even when that behaviour is very shocking and extreme.

As a final comment, it will be very damaging for a girl to grow up seeing her mother treated this way, learning the message that men are never wrong, never apologise, don't care about feelings, that her very life can be endangered and nothing will be done about it, that women must be responsible for men and train them. Disgusting.

foolonthehill Sat 07-Sep-13 21:46:36

you can train \ puppy...yep been there done that

you can teach a child....in progress

you can ask a grown man/woman to do what is right (or indeed what is wrong), it is then up to that person to decide for themselves what they do. Yes you can make safe spaces for feelings to be explored, yes you can have agreements about how to talk to one another....but therapy and relearning is for therapists and can only happen if the person WANTS to change.

Lilos...I think you are hiding from what is going on in your life because it is scary. A present does not mean sorry, a present does not mean i realise what I did...it's just a present...given at your request because...what?

foolonthehill Sat 07-Sep-13 21:49:19

in my experience....this some dysfunctional urge to control, save and change? is often true.

Lilo's you please realise that you cannot change him, only he can choose to change and even then it is difficult and hard work and best done alone a safe distance away from those who can be hurt emotionally or physically.

Jux Sat 07-Sep-13 21:52:03

Scared puppy my arse.

yellowballoons Sat 07-Sep-13 22:15:26

Women are not responsible for men.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 22:38:25

can anybody be bovvered to address that last comment ?

I am currently transfixed by the drying of paint on my skirting board

OxfordBags Sat 07-Sep-13 22:46:20

I'm too busy laughing my colon out of my eyes.

AnyFucker Sat 07-Sep-13 22:55:23

grin

Jux Sat 07-Sep-13 23:21:47

Oh dear. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Lilos, I am a practical person and I do understand the need to just get on with things, but that involves sorting them out, not burying my head in the sand. It means looking at my mistakes, talking about them in order to learn not to make the same mistake again, and yes, apologising; particularly if the mistake was a serious one with bad repercussions.

Does your dh apologise at work? Does he apologise at all, to anyone? Does he reserve his obsuracy for you?

ChasedByBees Sun 08-Sep-13 07:32:27

I'm sorry Lilo, I don't get the present thing either. From your DD's perspective (I don't know how old she is) but this will appear to her as, "my life was/is at risk which upset mum so mum got a present to make her feel better." She is nowhere in that. Where's her apology or reassurance it won't happen again?

Even if she's a baby, steps to ensure that it won't happen again FOR HER SAKE - and that's through genuine exploration of what happened and why and real remorse, leading to a resolve that this will never be repeated. A present isn't any kind of resolution to this and it can't take the place of true understanding and remorse. Even if the present had been for her as the (truly) injured party.

yellowballoons Sun 08-Sep-13 07:59:50

She wanted a present, not for the present itself, but because of what buying it meant.
By him buying it, to her, it meant he was a bit sorry, that he understood that she was upset, that he cared that she was upset even though he cant feel that he can say it unless very forced, that he still cares about her etc.

She says that he did actually say sorry too about what happened.

yellowballoons Sun 08-Sep-13 08:01:52

I presume it wasnt for the present itself as well, but that would be for the op to say.

Mindmaps Sun 08-Sep-13 08:32:01

So she should sacrifice her own self worth and compromise her child's safety to give her early partner a safe space to express himself hmm

Mindmaps Sun 08-Sep-13 08:32:27

Ea not early

yellowballoons Sun 08-Sep-13 09:12:06

She should not compromise her childs safety.

You see threads on here all the time where virtually all parents say that they have made a mistake, health and safety wise, at least once, with their children.

A man giving a woman something is sacrificing her self worth? hmm

scallopsrgreat Sun 08-Sep-13 09:21:42

I think you are right yellowballoons. I think the present was to signify some remorse on his part because she had tried everything else.

"She says that he did actually say sorry too about what happened." She hasn't actually. She said he is finally showing some remorse, 6 days after the event. Look at how far things had to go and how hard it was to get that remorse out of him. That is not really an apology is it?

Remind me again why you are so invested in minimising his behaviour and attitude, yellowballoons?

yellowballoons Sun 08-Sep-13 10:37:10

See second line of op's post on thurs 20.49pm

will explain the rest again, if I have to, later. Got to go out.

Fairenuff Sun 08-Sep-13 10:50:26

ilovelilos Thu 05-Sep-13 20:49:02

Thank you for the continued support.
Health issue problem continues. We are going to the doctors tomorrow, together. He has admitted he did wrong, said an unconvincing apology, but denies he knew it was wrong at the time. I believe he did know at the time but he is very arrogant and didn't think and now wont admit it.

This post? Sorry, where does it say that he apologised?

OxfordBags Sun 08-Sep-13 10:53:05

No, yellowballoons, I think it's you that needs stuff explaining to. A present in lieu of an apology is disgusting. It represents the opposite of remorse actually. Any idiot or bastard can give a present instead of feeling or demonstrating remorse, any understanding of what they've done wrong or any commitment to change or cease certain things. Furthermore, the OP's OH didn't even buy the gift of his own volition, she asked for it. She tried to find some little way to make him show remorse and in the end had to tell him how to, and then he grumbled about it!

A person who will accept a gift instead of genuine remorse or apology or addressing the real problem, must have had some really sad aspects of childhood. They must have learnt early that their feelings don't really matter, but hey, here's a bar of chocolate to say sorry we do 't care about you enough. A person demeans themselves by accepting a substitute for genuine concern for their feelings and needs, and more than that, it actually encourages the person who has hurt them to believe that they can get away with things so long as they present a bunch of flowers or nip down H Samuel or whatever.

It's actually a classic trait of an abuser to give gifts instead of true remorse or changing their behaviour.

And apart from all that, the focus about the remorse should not be about how much the OH has hurt the OP's feelings, it should be about the fact he could've killed their child! Talk about warped priorities. Fuck getting a present, fuck healing the twembling ickle puppy-man, get that little girl away from this cunt.

And I too want to know why you are so invested in minimising, yb. I suspect it is to do with why you asked if I was a Christian.

scallopsrgreat Sun 08-Sep-13 10:57:55

I missed that (despite reading the post several times confused). Not exactly convincing though is it? No remorse. Didn't actually think he'd done anything wrong at the time. Unconvincing and 4 days after the event hmm

Previous points still stand.

LittleMissMarker Sun 08-Sep-13 11:14:18

He is sorry. He just cant say it. You need to teach him to say it

yellowballoons, I don’t think it is sensible to expect ilovelilos to teach him (or worse still “train” him) to apologise. He would first have to want to learn, and over 10 years he has shown no sign of that.

And what is the evidence that he does feel sorry? You are assuming he must feel it, but possibly he doesn’t. MNRelationships does get some partners of abusers and even sociopaths, more so than other relationship boards I’ve read, and abusers and sociopaths often do not feel remorse.

Think of him as a scared emotionally wounded puppy that you got from a rescue centre. He is emotionally speaking, cowering under the table

But a scared wounded animal (emotionally or otherwise) is dangerous. And lilo’s husband is not puppy-size, he is a fully grown man with adult responsibilities (emotional and physical) which he is failing to meet. You cannot safely leave a wounded puppy (or an emotional five-year-old) to look after a small child.

you do seem like you are not going to leave him anytime soon.

Oh I dunno, there’ve been some surprising turn-arounds here.

She wanted a present, not for the present itself, but because of what buying it meant. ….

Yes, that is why lilo wants the present. But if the apology and the present are just a grudging attempt to get her off his back and not an expression of genuine regret for endangering his daughter then it would be demeaning for her to accept them. lilo and her DD need real remorse and a commitment to do better in future, and lilo should not be fobbed off with a present instead. I don’t know what is the truth about him, but at the very least he seems seriously emotionally inadequate as a parent (and husband) and he may be physically dangerous.

LittleMissMarker Sun 08-Sep-13 11:20:34

Sorry, should have said "^I expect^ that's why lilo wants the present". Don't want to put words into your mouth ilovelilos.

yellowballoons Sun 08-Sep-13 13:39:48

I have more or less answered everything here.
Up to the op what she does about her husband and her marriage.

OxfordBags Sun 08-Sep-13 14:23:25

I think you're backing out of explaining yourself properly, yellow, because you know that what you're saying doesn't hold water and can't be explained sufficiently, but I'm not going to press you, because this thread is about the OP.

Jux Sun 08-Sep-13 14:34:05

Poor op. I have not seen such determined derailing of a thread for a long time. Maybe you should start another and hope that the debate simply continues here? YB, you should be ashamed of yourself.

AnyFucker Sun 08-Sep-13 14:43:16

It is quite inexplicable really. When I see this level of determination to excuse bad behaviour in a partner, one can only assume the apologiser is staying in a similar situation and that seeing someone else elect to make the same decision somehow validates their own.

yellowballoons Sun 08-Sep-13 14:56:53

Dear op
I understand if you choose not to post on this thread again. It must be quite scary for you to repost.
I hope that you have some ideas about what to do next.
best wishes
yellowballoons

AllThatGlistens Sun 08-Sep-13 16:40:52

ODFOD hmm

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