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Chances of reconciliation with an ex you're 'friends' with?

(325 Posts)
cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 10:58:12

Hello, I've just signed up to post this thread, I hope that's ok smile

I read about 'friendzoning' on another forum and apparently, it's bad when it comes to being friend zoned by an ex.

I recently split up with a man I had been seeing for 6 months. We were seeing each other quite casually - as in, we hadn't been seen together in public around our town, as I'm still in the process of going through a divorce (split up a long time ago) and didn't want that reflecting badly on me...despite all that, this man said he loved me fairly early on (within a month) and seemed to be planning for the future; talking about future events he will be attending and mentioning it would be nice for us to go together, and so on.

He spent a while after we split up saying that he doesn't want a relationship with anyone for as far into the future as he can see, but that he liked me a lot, we did continue to sleep together but then both felt awful the next day, and then he told me he was going away for a couple of weeks with work, and needed complete space; I.E no contact for the time he was away. He said he was hoping to see if he missed me, and to work out what he felt for me; whether he wanted to never see me again, just be friends or something more than friends.

I spoke to him yesterday on the phone, and he said he was hoping to see me next week when he was back home, just meeting up for a coffee and a chat then going home to see if we can actually get on (we've been arguing a lot recently, due to his 'confusion'). I asked about how he felt and first of all he said I'm lovely but not for him, then he said he could never say never and that two people could never have a relationship if they can't be friends. He wouldn't say if his actual feelings had changed, just saying that he had made a decision that if he can't have a relationship with anyone at this moment in time, then he can't have his cake and eat it by sleeping with me - which seems fair enough to me.

He seems to want to meet up next week, chat and get on and then just text and stuff as people do, with a view to meeting up "some time in the future...in a week, or two or three, whenever feels right".

He says that he will still be attracted to me, but won't ever act on it. I asked what would happen if he comes to see me and still feels the way he did the last time he came over (which was beginning of August) - the same feelings that were confusing him at that time, and he said he would just try to enjoy the feeling of enjoying my company.

Is this a bit weird? Putting aside the issue of whether the dumped party should be friends with an ex when they still have feelings for them, would it be so bad in theory to meet up with this person fairly regularly but not planned regularly, just chat about casual things and then we both go home having had a pleasant time...is there potential for feelings to develop on his part (if they were ever going to, I know there is only a slim chance anyway) or will he 'friend zone' me and therefore never see me in 'that' way again?

I admit, I'm confused as to how feelings come about anyway - my ex said that he realises now that he has to be friends with a woman before getting involved with dating or a relationship, but can you ever be friends with an ex (genuine friends, with no physical contact) and then rekindle a relationship?

HotDAMNlifeisgood Wed 21-Aug-13 11:04:09

Cut off contact. He's just fucking with your head and your feelings. This relationship is on-again, off-again, and he is wasting your time by dithering. You can't be "friends" with him because you will just fall into bed together again, and then wake up the following morning to more of his "Oh, but I don't know for sure what I want..."

You don't need that in your life. It is stopping you from moving on and healing. And since you are emotionally hooked, the only way out for you is to go cold turkey - I understand that it will be difficult and painful at first.

I suggest you have a read of the "Baggage Reclaim" website.

meditrina Wed 21-Aug-13 11:04:18

He's dangling a future in front of you - if you jump through his hoops, perhaps you'll win him as a prize.

You might like to have a look at the Baggage Reclaim site especially in the "list of posts" for ones about future faking and elastic bands.

meditrina Wed 21-Aug-13 11:05:05

x-post!

Same recommended reading, though.

Tell him to fuck off, he sounds like an arsehole.

Don't even bother trying to be friends with him, he's just using you.

Leverette Wed 21-Aug-13 11:19:28

He sounds like a total knob and completely disrespectful of you. Put a higher price on your company and affections.

arsenaltilidie Wed 21-Aug-13 11:25:29

He is trying to turn you into a fwb.

In 6 months time he will tell you I said "im not looking for a relationship" and leave you in a worse position.

When he finds someone he likes, he will drop you like a sack of bricks.

You need to start ignoring his texts and enjoy your life, forget about him.

IsItMyArseOrMyElbow Wed 21-Aug-13 11:42:25

I had an ex I tried to win back by meeting up and shagging in his car, he told me he didn't want a relationship. What he meant was he didn't want one with me, this became obvious when he turned up one day in my local and introduced me to his fiancée.

He still tried to sleep with me on several occasions after this, I refused and 5 years later they were divorced (something to do with someone from a pub near his house having a baby within a few months of his wife).

Stop massaging his ego and find someone who wants to rub yours (and your ego fnarr fnarr!)

I agree with the others. This man wants you to be available for a shag when his dick itches, but to be able to put you back in your box when he's got something - or someone- else to do, and he reckons that throwing you a few crumbs of 'maybe we can Be Together One Day' is all he needs to do.
If you want an occasional shag and he's good at doing it, then carry on but make sure you date and shag other men as well .If what you want is a monogamous, committed relationship then you are not going to get one from him. I think if you were happy with a FWB situation you wouldn't be worrying about it so much.

MaureenDaly Wed 21-Aug-13 12:17:25

Agree with everyone else.
Sometimes it can work but in this case I think you both want something different.
Next!

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 12:35:04

Oh.

Well he is good at 'it' solidgold, but that's besides the point I suppose. I don't want to do fwb and he says that he doesn't either.

I hate to come on here asking for advice then disagree with you all - but I think he will stick to not sleeping with me.

He sounded different on the phone to how he has before, he says he wants to come round and get along and then be able to leave, without me asking him to stay - which is usually what used to happen; I admit quite a few times I did do that by saying "I haven't finished with what I was saying yet - sit down!" and he did. Hate myself for being that way but he always tried to leave whenever I slightly criticised him and that annoyed me.

He's been married in the past as well, and as immature I might sound by not knowing all this 'stuff' already (my ex husband is the only person I've been with prior to this man), we're both in our forties.

Sorry to drip feed information, but I don't know if it's relevant that he was hurt badly by his ex wife (I know this as we have mutual friends; he's never discussed it) and he finished things with her about ten years ago and last time we spoke on the phone, he said that he doesn't want to be in the position that he was with her, with giving "everything, trying to show affection and love, then being rejected". Anytime I bring up his tendency to change his mind; about being a bit more easy going about things and seeing where they go etc, he turns it round on me; saying things such as "well when we agreed to be open minded and just go with doing whatever felt right at the time, you couldn't get far enough away from me when I came round". Might be over analysing or misreading things but he seems to really need the affection, but not want to put himself out there by giving it first, which to me makes sense given his marriage.

Anyway - basically I'm saying I've known this man for years in my friendship circle, and I know he isn't the type to just sleep around or be fwb; in fact whenever we slept together it was mostly initiated by me - as in, he was saying he wanted to but had to go, and was actually out the door before I convinced him to come back in; and I don't think he's that manipulative to have been playing at going just so I'd invite him in. And then the next time I asked him over, he would say it's not a good idea as we will just end up in bed again, which is no good for either of us as we aren't officially together.

Apart from all that though; say if he came round next week and I was ok with it, not spending the entire time wishing I could kiss him or something, and say he never tries anything physical on and I don't either - in THAT scenario (I know it's all speculative), would there be any way a friendship can lead to something more?

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 12:39:06

Although, just thinking about what arsenal said; he did also say last time we talked, that "as far as I can see into the future, I don't want a relationship. I don't want to have to come round and see you - anyone - every week, or be told to stay when I want to leave. If I did want a relationship, I'd want to give it a good go with you because I love you to pieces as a person and you're great, but I don't want to lead you down the garden path by sleeping with you or saying that there will be a future when I don't feel there will. I can't predict the future and situations and feelings change but at this moment in time, I want to be on my own and have a friendship, but nothing more than that."

That seemed like he was being totally upfront and honest, to me. Didn't sound like he was trying to just be fwb or lead me on, what do you think?

StillSeekingSpike Wed 21-Aug-13 12:39:43

Oh Gd- they ALWAYS have an ex wife or girlfriend or mother, or hamster, who broke their heart and now they can never love again. I think I would prefer it if he said 'Actually I'm quite immature and shallow- that's why I don't want a relationship'.

"he says he wants to come round and get along and then be able to leave, without me asking him to stay " = 'I want to come round, shag you and then fck off and you are not allowed any demands whatsoever' angry

Leverette Wed 21-Aug-13 12:47:58

"I think he will stick to not sleeping with me"

Are you always so passive? Why would you want to sleep with someone who's a head-messing idiot like this?

VenusRising Wed 21-Aug-13 12:48:07

Practically everyone here has said dump him, and go no contact.

I agree with them.

You don't, so if you keep posting to say you are going to meet him again, and kiss him or whatever, you need to stop posting asking us for advice for what you are going to do, as the majority say stop seeing him.

I'm leaving this thread, and wishing you all the best.

HoobleDooble Wed 21-Aug-13 13:07:16

So it seems to me that he's either being honest and you can be his friend while always wanting more, and sit with a rictus grin as he tells you about 'this woman he likes, this woman he's dating, this woman he's in a relationship with'.

OR he's saying he doesn't want to sleep with you, knowing full well you'll try and seduce him into it, then he can shag you, walk away tell you how it was all your idea.

I don't think either way sounds much fun for you.

HotDAMNlifeisgood Wed 21-Aug-13 15:18:40

Oh, the poor sensitive soul hmm. Yes, they've been wounded in the past (who hasn't, frankly?), they don't cheat or sleep around, they believe in romance and monogamy and committed relationships... yet are strangely unable to produce a straightforward one. You know, the kind where someone is upfront about liking you, willing to give a relationship a good go, and then upfront about it not working out, if that's the case. You know, the kind of relationship you should be angling for, OP, if you valued yourself more.

he always tried to leave whenever I slightly criticised him

This is another massive red flag, btw, OP.

You need to wean yourself off this drama-filled relationship. This man is not capable of having a solid relationship. Nor are you, if this is behaviour you find attractive and get entangled in. Please read Baggage Reclaim.

Sorry but you are making at least half this mess yourself. Stop begging, pleading, clutching at his trouserlegs and climbing all over him when he has said that he doesn't want sex with you. If the genders were reversed, your behaviour would be seen by most people as a bit creepy and manipulative - you ask him to come to your house, assure him you won't pester for sex and then proceed to do so. You're not entitled to a romantic, sexual relationship with this man just because you want one.

He's either manipulative or he's a bit of a wuss who thinks it would be 'unmanly' to walk out on you when you are basically waving your chuff at him and saying 'Come on big boy, you want it really.'

He doesn't want to be your boyfriend. Suck it up. And leave him alone.

bestsonever Wed 21-Aug-13 15:47:15

He's saying how it is but you're not listening. It's plain as your nose that you can't accept being just friends and will always hang out for more. Why ask us? It's up to him if you'll get more, he seems to say not but you are being a bit numb to that. Now I bet you've told him you are fine just being friends and can totally can cope with that, all the while desperately asking on here if anyone has managed to change a man's mind. Face it, you will not cope with being just friends so I suggest you go NC.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 15:55:15

Lol I do not wave anything at him :/ But I take your point.

Whoever said something about asking for advice...well isn't 'advice' asking for opinions and then making your own decision on what to do, based on opinions garnered? I'm not ignoring, just saying that I don't think he's the shagging about type.

I KNOW they always have a reason for being that way, but I'm a bit emotionally dysfunctional myself (part of the reason the thing we had went wrong) and if asked, I'd 'blame' my childhood; as it was very emotionally damaging, and I've gone for counselling over it all.

Stillseeking/Leverette - what he meant about coming round, was he always comes over and just talks, it's been me in the past hinting that I wanted more, by saying "aren't you even tempted to be closer to me like we used to act?" or something along those lines, he then admits that of course he's tempted but that would only go one way and we'd both feel awful about it, it's not right to do that etc etc. Then I tell him he should be open minded or I move a bit closer or something, then he ends up kissing me - so I'd say that yes he should have been 'strong enough' not to be 'tempted', but those were times that he had agreed to keep an open mind about things...and now he's saying he cannot and will not be physical in any way, as he doesn't want a relationship at the moment (or ever, whatever). That's what I meant by "I think he'll stick to not sleeping with me" because I won't try anything on either smile

Therefore I am 100% he will come over, we'll chat and have a nice couple of hours and then he will go home without either of us having tried anything on.

So as I asked before, if we take it on the basis that he genuinely wants to be friends and isn't trying to get me into bed, and he doesn't try anything on while he's here; then could something more develop in future from that? Or will he have boxed me into this so called 'friend zone' and therefore never think of me in 'that' way again?

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 16:03:57

bestsonever - yes but he's said this before, about 2-3 months ago.

At that time, I texted him a list of questions - things like had his feelings disappeared (he said "the main ones, yes"), could he see himself gaining feelings in the future ("no"), could he see himself meeting up with me again (he replied "I don't know, but certainly not for at least a few weeks).

A couple of weeks later I asked him to come round, he didn't want to and said it wasn't a good idea but I asked him to come over for 'closure', he turned up looking miserable and we argued, then that led to...you know :/

He then spent 3 weeks telling me he couldn't see a future for us but wasn't sure of his feelings for me, as they felt stronger than he'd had for his exes, there was something about me he couldn't put his finger on, all that sort of thing. He continued to come round during this time, each time it was me practically begging him to come over until he eventually did, but as he didn't want to be there he looked miserable, so then I'd argue that he wasn't pleased to see me.
Wash, rinse repeat and I totally lost all self respect, I know that.

Just before he went away, he said he still couldn't see a future, he doesn't want a relationship with anyone but he needed some space from me to clear his head and to sort his feelings out, whether he wanted nothing more to do with me, just friendship or something more...then we get to what I posted in my original post.

He WAS genuinely confused about his feelings, I know that.

meditrina Wed 21-Aug-13 16:05:47

He won't think of you in "that" way again. He's said so loud and clear.

I suggest you stop seeing him at your house, incorporate him properly into your circle of friends as a friend. And look instead for someone who is interested in you as a potential partner.

If you want to be a therapist, then train as one and make it your professional life.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 16:06:15

Sorry I forgot to add, the reason he gave for saying all that a month ago (my feelings have disappeared, we can't meet up again, there is no future etc) and then changing his mind, is because "then I wanted to be with someone, and now I just want to be on my own".

He said as much in the phone call last night; that what he feels for me has nothing to do with him making a decision that he doesn't want to be involved in any sort of relationship at the moment or for as far ahead as he can possibly imagine. But he doesn't know what will happen in the future; be that 2 weeks or 2 years' time.

See that makes sense to me, doesn't it to you?

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 16:07:37

meditrina - you think? As I said, he's told me the same previously then changed his mind and acted all tormented about his feelings.

Bluestocking Wed 21-Aug-13 16:24:15

Gaaah! He's trying to be nice about it, but he doesn't want any kind of relationship with you. Please scrape up some self-respect and leave him alone. And stop wasting so much time analysing every little thing he ever said/did/texted. You may be in your forties but you're behaving like an adolescent.

meditrina Wed 21-Aug-13 16:24:43

You really shouldn't give time of day to "tormented"

It all boils down to him repeatedly telling you that he doesn't want a relationship with you

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 16:29:53

Ok, I suppose I was focusing more on the prospect that he might in future.

Not hung up on it (although it may seem that way to you), but I suppose I just wanted to keep things open; be friends and then in 6 months, a year, 2 years down the line if I felt the same way (or stronger, as I don't entirely know how strongly I feel for him now, or what I want) and he felt more open to being in a relationship, then maybe it could happen - or not.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 16:33:23

Can I ask one more question though;

Why doesn't he cut me out altogether?

He's a grown man, he cut his ex wife out (still sees his grown up children) after she shacked up with the guy she cheated on him with, and he was with her for many years.

I don't really understand why he says he wants to keep seeing me as a friend or seems open to the idea at least; so giving the benefit of the doubt and he sticks to his word; comes over and doesn't try anything 'physical', we just chat for an hour or so and then he goes home, if he keeps doing that then what would he be gaining from that?

Worded that terribly but hopefully you get my point.

Bluestocking Wed 21-Aug-13 16:36:05

But don't you see that if he did, in six months or two years, feel like a relationship with you, he can get in touch regardless of whether the two of you have been in touch in the interim?
He won't, though, and you will feel much better if you have got on with your life without an extremely undignified interval of borderline harassment of this man.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 16:42:27

That's the thing - I'm not going to go into it all for fear of comatising everyone who reads this, but although he says he knows the 'real me', I've been acting very much out of character.

When I'm secure - whether it be in a relationship, a friendship or whatever, I'm naturally quite bubbly, easy going; in the beginning I was that way - if he wanted to come and see me and I was free I'd agree, but if plans came up for either of us then it was fine and we'd rearrange.
But then we finished, and I turned into Ms Bunnyboiler! Well not quite that bad, but just very 'naggy' and instead of asking him to come over, I'd pretty much demand it - it'd be "I know you won't want to but you need to come over because I have (whatever drama was happening at that time) and I need a friend..." type stuff. Then obviously, when he couldn't come over I'd blackmail and all sorts til he turned up.

I have no idea why I reacted that way,but in the past 6 or so weeks we haven't got on for more than 12 hours.

I suppose this friends thing was a way of letting him see the other 'real' side of me, also a way of proving - to myself as much as him - that we CAN actually get on and have things to say to each other...I think realistically if we went along that way and nothing was doing in terms of him starting to show or develop more feelings for me, then I'd probably then cut contact.

Might that be an ok way to go, you think?

meditrina Wed 21-Aug-13 17:01:19

No. It's not an OK way to go.

He's only interested in being friends. Stop inviting him over. See him only with friends as part of your normal social circle. Stop giving him head space. His motivations aren't your concern: you are not his therapist. His message I don't want a relationship with you is all that matters.

The more time you waste on someone who keeps telling you he's not interested, the less you are open to the possibility of a new man who is.

Nerfmother Wed 21-Aug-13 17:18:29

Agree with last few posters. He is so not into you. You can tell yourself it's because you're acting 'bunny boiler' or whatever or you can just accept it , gather up your dignity and stop nagging him into sex with you. To be honest, in my long and extensive shagging career I have discovered that most men (and women!) are not that complicated or confused about wanting to be with a particular person or not. He does not.

arsenaltilidie Wed 21-Aug-13 17:26:20

You honestly think he doesn't want a relationship because you think he hasn't seen the 'real' you?
You are practically begging him to sleep with you and you honestly think that's wise??... Sorry to be harsh but grow up!
Oh the feigning to not want to see you knowing full well you'll offer it on the plate hmm

Honestly no wonder a lot of men treat women like dirt if you tolerate this kind of thing.

You situation is not unique, is not different than any other FWB situation were ONE person is attached.
It's ALWAYS: I've been hurt before.. I'm not looking for a relationship right now... Will see in the future (What it means is I want to shag you whilst I look for someone else, I'll be guilt free when I stop seeing, but for now the sex will do)zzzzz

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 17:38:13

Wow, how come you're all so dead sure he's just another one of 'those guys'? Ok so a lot of it fits the mould but how do you know he's feigning not wanting to come over and all that? Could be genuine confusion surely?
Or if every guy that seems and acts confused is a user, then what about the one that isn't and if actually confused about stuff; he just gets labelled that way?

Anyway if you're right (and I'm not saying you're not)...then if I continue to see him, never offer it up on a plate and he continues coming over whilst knowing I'm not offering it on a plate, therefore he never gets sex from me again - then what? Is he genuine? Really desperate? Because surely even the most desperate man would realise after, say, 6 months of coming over regularly and not getting what he's supposedly after, that he's not ever going to get it and would then give up?
If he stops contact or fades away after a while of me not actually trying or giving into anything physical then fair enough; but what does it mean if he doesn't?

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 17:43:13

Meditrina - throughout all of this I've been talking to other men, not meeting up with them yet but I have a friend that I used to work with years ago, we only talk on facebook and text message but about a year ago we finally both admitted that we'd liked each other back then, but both were too shy to do anything about it.
He's slightly younger than me and now lives the other side of the country but has asked me to go and visit him, and when he's up here visiting he asks me to see him; I will do that eventually, it's juts plucking up the courage to do it.

So I DO have options (haha, not that I'm some stunner or anything!), I'm definitely not intending on putting my life on hold for this man at all - it's just he's not really a part of my social circle in that way; more of a mutual friends from work type thing. He wouldn't fit into my social circle in all honesty; we're all kind of 'rock' and he's well, not.
So I can only really see him alone.

I am really starting to think that he maintains contact with you because he is a bit spineless and maybe even scared of you, or at least scared of being labelled a bastard for not wanting to go out with you, for not loving you, when there is no obligation on him to do so.

A lot of people think they can placate a selfish, self-obsessed, desperate stalker by being 'friends', because they worry that telling the person to fuck off or a restraining order will be applied for is 'unkind'. Leave this man alone. He doesn't want a relationship with you and never will. It's impossible to 'fall in love' with someone who has been whining and pestering and hurling themselves at you for months; all you end up feeling for such a person is contempt.

Nerfmother Wed 21-Aug-13 18:20:04

Do what you want op, fool yourself its some hopeless messed up Aniston rom com, or listen to the chorus of voices telling you to leave the poor sod alone.

daphnesglasses Wed 21-Aug-13 18:26:44

OP I think he genuinely likes you and doesn't want to hurt you but he doesn't want a relationship with you. You're not making it easy for him to end it. You can't be friends because deep down you want more than that and are likely to get hurt if he gets a girlfriend. Just walk away - in time you will be able to look back fondly on what you had. Don't keep on trying to change his mind or hoping he will - it won't happen and if you keep plugging away you'll make him have to spell it out.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 18:44:49

Honestly this is my point, please understand what I'm trying to say as I am taking on board your opinions, honestly I am.

Daphne's point; he's trying to let me down gently.

Ok I'll take that.

If that is the case, then what will he do, do you think?

Will he see me once and then any time I ask him to come over after that make excuses/say it's not a good idea (or variations of that; basically he will never set foot through my door again after that one last time), or will he keep on coming round whenever I suggest it?

If it's the latter; why on earth would he keep doing that? However spineless/scared/whatever he is, why would someone who likes me but really just wants to end contact with me, continue to agree to come round and spend time with me?

That's what I'm trying to understand.

Notfootball Wed 21-Aug-13 19:19:43

Wow, I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the man! He's not interested in you, he's really trying to stop finish with you but you push and cajole him non-stop. He cannot shake you off, physically nor emotionally.

Will he this, will he that? You really are over-analysing this and asking us to guess how he will escape. Maybe he is just hoping you will realise that when he said he didn't want a relationship, he meant a relationship with you and that you will back off.

I remember being a little like this when I was in my 20s with little experience of proper relationships. Like you, I'm now in my 40s and would be surprised if I were still thinking like this.

Sorry if I sound harsh but everyone upthread has given you advice and its not sinking in at all. He's being nice but trying to extricate himself from you, make it easy for him and yourself.

daphnesglasses Wed 21-Aug-13 19:20:11

look I was sort of in his position with a guy I'd been seeing - I didn't want to hurt him but I didn't see him as a long term partner - I sort of loved him a bit but not fully or as I should have done or knew I'm capable of (with someone else, not with him.)

He was nice and he made it very hard for me to end it - kept getting upset etc and said he'd get depressed. I didn't want the guilt factor and I didn't want him to turn into a stalker either. I really had never meant and never wanted to hurt him, and I knew what that was like having been badly hurt by exh. So I fudged it, really just to get rid of him as much as being cowardly. Agreed to be friends but then as he kept pestering etc realised that just wasn't an option and I didn't want to see him again, so I had to tell him in the end anyway. Next time I'll try to be more straightforward, like ripping off a plaster. Some people, if they've just been in long term relationships, just don't know how to handle these situations for the best.

Sorry but if he wanted to be with you he would be - just walk away and find someone else where it's completely mutual, which I'm sure you will do, and let him do likewise.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 19:38:32

He hasn't only been in a long term relationship though.

Sorry to drip feed but I didn't realise all this was relevant; he was married to one woman, she cheated on him left right and centre, talked to and treated him like absolute dirt (saw this first hand when they were out together) and it was generally assumed around our village that he was only staying for the children - and true enough, when the got into their late teens, she cheated one last time and he left. There was then talk that he was having some sort of mental breakdown as he went all hippy dippy for a while.

Since then, he's had quite a few relationships that have all ended after about a year. I know one of the women well and she says he just wasn't in a good enough job for her (!) and he's friends with a few of his exes - well acquaintances, they don't meet up just check in through text every now and again.

There is also the fact that so many times I've said look, I know you think this of me (I'm causing you too much hassle, a limpet, it was an insignificant fling and now you're just trying to get rid of me etc etc) and do you want me to just leave you alone, no questions asked if you say yes...I said it totally genuinely and every time, he's said "no" to that question, and always denied the negative things, saying it was real to him, not insignificant, that kind of thing.

Why didn't he take the chance to cut me out altogether when I gave him the chance? He even said that himself not so long ago; about 3 weeks ago, his exact words were "if there isn't something between us, then why is it whenever you've given me a clear exit route, haven't I take it?". To which I said that thing about how people who've been kidnapped grow to love their kidnappers, can't remember the name for it now but it follows the same principle; I've been bugging him so much that it's done his head in. He then denied that and said it's more than that!

This is the confusion.

He even told me once, about an ex that they'd gone to a fair or something together with her sister, she was really into fortune tellers and this woman and her sister went in to the teller, separately. The fortune teller apparently told this woman that she was going to be married within the year, came out and jokingly told him what she'd said and he thought "well not to me!" and then ended it shortly afterwards.
Another ex; he said she always seemed to argue for the sake of making up, and one night after 3 months of that he sat on her floor after another row and she had wanted to make up, and then (as they'd been drinking), as soon as he had sobered up enough, he upped and went home, then never saw her again.

So he CAN and HAS cut people out of his life before; and that last woman sounds similar to the way I had been acting, so if he can drop them, why not me?

I know that sounds very arrogant of me, I don't mean it that way - just mean that he's clearly not spineless - and due to his work, he actually has a very good way of cutting me out if he needs to (he could tell a white lie and I'd never know about it, but he'd be backed up 100%) so why would he have to fake a friendship?

And - not to go over old ground but still no one has answered properly; if he keeps agreeing to come and see me, despite not getting sex or anything like that - then doesn't that mean he DOES genuinely want to be friends and isn't just scared or spineless?
If he does the gradual fade out then fair enough.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 19:40:11

Forgot a point again; this friends thing daphne (or anyone else) - why isn't he agreeing to just text, thereby retaining some distance?

Why has he said he wants to keep meeting up but never sleeping together or staying the night?

If he was scared/spineless then wouldn't he just agree to texting or maybe occasional phonecalls, but nothing more?

Leverette Wed 21-Aug-13 19:44:46

You're obsessing and over analysing.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 19:47:49

Well I have been making these points all thread and no one has answered yet... it's a fairly simple question; if he is shit scared of me or just 'nice' then why would he want to keep meeting up? Why wouldn't he say he just wants to text and call from now on?

arsenaltilidie Wed 21-Aug-13 19:56:07

The way he talks about dropping the other women suggests he enjoys the power he has over you.
I can 100% guarantee that the other women will have different stories.

whenever you've given me a clear exit route, haven't I take it hmm
Honestly OP he's playing with your emotions.
Of course he HAS to say those things to keep you hooked on me so he can shag you whenever you want.

How about stop the sex and see if the communication will last more than 6 months?
Don't tell him why the sex has stopped.

arsenaltilidie Wed 21-Aug-13 19:57:20

He wants to meet up because of sex!!

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 20:13:28

That's interesting, arsenal (the bit about the other women). He has two of his exes on facebook; the most recent one before me, and the one before that.
One of them is a mutual friend one facebook which is how I came to know she was on there; I brought it up with him at one point and just said it was nice that they were still able to be civil, and he said that yes, he is in occasional text and facebook contact with 3 of his exes (one is from years back).

Thinking about it now, the one before me always seemed a bit too friendly and 'ok' with him considering the way he said he finished it and he seems to keep 'liking' the other one's posts; she never seems to do the same with him so maybe it's not as much of a 2 sided 'friendship' as he says.

Ok so if he's either scared of me, spineless or just after sex, then he will stop coming over or maybe even stop contacting me, after a while, yes?

So I'll be friends - proper friends, like he wants. Totally platonic, nice as pie, never sitting too close to him on the sofa and not allowing any sort of physical contact, or the suggestion of it. And if he's still seeing me and keeping in touch in 6 months time, I'll know he was genuinely wanting to be friends?

daphnesglasses Wed 21-Aug-13 20:29:24

Is that what you want though OP, to be friends confused doesn't sound like it tbh. I'd take the spotlight off him, end it completely, and start focussing the attention on yourself, getting on with your life

Br0na Wed 21-Aug-13 20:37:08

I think if he's ended it saying he doesn't want anything long term or serious and he doesn't want sex either and he is saying he wants to be friends then what he wants is a platonic relationship!

Nerfmother Wed 21-Aug-13 20:41:01

Would you listen to yourself woman! You are checking and keeping score of how he interacts with others on Facebook, you are coming up with intricate questions about why he hasn't done x, y , z when the only important fact is the he does not want to be with you.
Go on , play at being friends and guaranteed within a week you'll be analysing everything he says to see if you can move it up a level.
No one normal actually takes an exit route - how rude would that be? And how brave, considering your intensity?
Do yourself a favour and caste your net wider.

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 20:49:44

No but if I'd said "if you want me to leave you alone now then just say, and I will" then surely at the very least, he could have said "oh don't be silly" and then not replied to my texts after that? As I'd given him that option through text, on the phone and in person, multiple times. I gave him enough chances.

Daphne - I don't know what I want, truthfully. I like his company, there is a lot about him that makes me a bit hmm, a lot that totally pisses me off, I can see his flaws and they're quite off putting, it's not like I'm thinking about him the minute I wake up or checking my phone for texts every second of the day; I'm definitely not in love with him or anything like that, I suppose I just wanted the option of something happening and his company (occasionally) in the meantime.

NameThatTuna Wed 21-Aug-13 20:51:55

Well I have been making these points all thread and no one has answered yet... it's a fairly simple question; if he is shit scared of me or just 'nice' then why would he want to keep meeting up? Why wouldn't he say he just wants to text and call from now on?

<<head hits desk>>

If YOU don't know why, why do you think WE would know?

If you want to keep seeing him, as friends or for sex, just do it. You're an adult, you can do whatever you like, but don't expect him to suddenly have an epiphany and realize you're 'The One'.

I've been in this situation, nearly everyone I know has been in this situation. Some become committed relationships, some don't.

You're kidding yourself if you say you will just be his friend. Come on now, stop lying to yourself. You want more and friendship will never be enough for you. You're already tying yourself up in knots.

You will end up looking stupid.

But seriously OP, I suggest you cut contact for a while until you chill out. When you do, read all your posts on this thread.

I think you'll cringe when you do!

Br0na Wed 21-Aug-13 20:52:17

It 's very hard to be so so brutally honest though. I think he 'softened' it a little thinking that you'd go away, thinking about it, read between the lines...........

daphnesglasses Wed 21-Aug-13 20:54:30

I'd say don't waste your time on him any more unless you can really handle and want platonic (why confused) and would be ok with him bringing a girlfriend along if you went out etc. You're flogging a dead horse. Don't take it personally just move on

NameThatTuna Wed 21-Aug-13 20:55:08

I don't know what I want, truthfully. I like his company, there is a lot about him that makes me a bit hmm, a lot that totally pisses me off, I can see his flaws and they're quite off putting, it's not like I'm thinking about him the minute I wake up or checking my phone for texts every second of the day; I'm definitely not in love with him or anything like that, I suppose I just wanted the option of something happening and his company (occasionally) in the meantime.

^ ^ This smacks of desperation. Get a grip woman!

NameThatTuna Wed 21-Aug-13 20:56:47

Are you that desperate to be with anybody, even if it's someone you don't really like? confused

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 21:02:27

How does liking a person's company, as he says he likes mine (ok granted, that may not be true but still, he said it) and wanting the possibility that if feelings were to develop then they could, and if not then at least we have a good friendship (hopefully) out of it, desperate?

At the moment, I wouldn't be able to handle that daphne - but I also know he won't find anyone anytime soon.

As I said before, I was planning on letting him come over (assuming he wants to) next week as he said he hoped he could, and if I spend the entire time wanting to be 'more than friends' then I know I need to step back and get my head straight first. I want to try seeing him first though, as for all I know I might be totally fine with just having a coffee and a chat.

Tuna - but if I still felt that I wanted a relationship (or the possibility) in say, a few weeks and he's still not showing any sign of...anything, then I more than likely will end contact - and ok I'm dragging it out for potentially another couple of months but I do believe he wants to be friends, or I at least want to try and see whether him not getting me into bed, makes him fade off into the sunset or whether he sticks around for "my company".

cherrysparkles Wed 21-Aug-13 21:05:34

Tuna - no it's not that at all. I'm a complete and utter loner. Prefer my own company, never entertained the idea of sex, or a relationship, or the thought of having to share and adapt my life to be with someone, until I met my husband, but back then we were both young and I kind of got caught up in it all.

This man caught my eye the first time we met, but not in a 'looks' sort of way, we just connected and then started to talk about shared spirituality and that kind of thing. We both played in bands too, so that was unusual (we felt at the time).

I don't usually feel that connection with someone so when I do, it means something - and he said the same back when we started out, in fact he said it first.

Br0na Wed 21-Aug-13 21:08:51

Well, I don't know, it doesn't sound like much.

I would just leave it. Don't contact him. If he contacts you, you can take each offer as an individual thing, ykwim? cinema? well, what film. Dinner? hmm, what day.

I'd relegate him. You don't have to nail every feeling to the mast I guess. He's relegated you. If you're fine with that and you like him enough to not be hurt by that, then knock yourself out being his friendly acquaintance!

daphnesglasses Wed 21-Aug-13 21:10:28

It can be hard to let go when you've had feelings for someone, but think of it as making space for someone new. Let go! good luck

scrazy Wed 21-Aug-13 23:05:43

Please OP, listen to your instincts and what he is saying to you. He means it, people tell you who they are and you need to really listen.

Stop over analysing everything he is doing and focus on yourself. If you want to stay in touch then do but don't see him at all. Get on with your own life and even sleep with/date other men.

I feel for you I really do. Been there done it plenty of times and very recently at a ripe old age (we never learn). Thank god I've wised up and it took longer than 6 months.

If he wants you/me they will do it anyway, more so if you stop seeing him and then who knows you just might have met someone else that is better.

gingerpig Wed 21-Aug-13 23:54:41

the main problem as I see it is you are not friends. you don't want to be friends - you want more. you really need to be honest with yourself.

friends do not obsess about each other and their future like you are. friends do not try and manipulate each other in the hope they will get a relationship out of it. friends do not play games. you are playing a game. friends do not have dramatic rows ending in regretful sex. friends respect each other and their wishes. you are not detached enough to be his friend and you are not respecting his wish to not have a relationship.

you will never stick at your pretence because the first hint you get at him distancing himself or becoming interested in another woman, it will be back to the pleading etc. and all the other pieces of you that aren't 'real' but probably feel very real to him.

ps. I've learned this the hard way.

FFS get a hobby. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life trotting after this man with your tongue hanging out, while he runs away screaming?

Leavenheath Thu 22-Aug-13 02:09:45

Is this man a janitor at your children's school by any chance?

Cavoodle Thu 22-Aug-13 07:23:27

Every single man who has broken up with me claimed they wanted to stay "friends" and wanted to "catch up for coffee" every now and then and that "our breakup is different".

In reality, nearly all of them stopped contacting me within a couple of weeks, maybe a month or two at the most after a couple of awkward coffee dates or lunches.

Being 'friends' and making half hearted attempts to stay in contact is just what people do. It's a way to lessen the blow, and make the dumper and the dumpee feel better about the breakup. It's also a way for them to exit the routine of being with you without going completely cold turkey, and if they're especially canny or undecided, keep you on the hook while they sniff around for a better option.

The best thing you can do for yourself is stop questioning why he wants to be friends and let him go. Chances are he's saying this stuff out of politeness or self interest or simply because he likes the ego boost of having you wanting him in your life. If he takes this time to think about the relationship and decides he wants to come back, he will let you know. No amount of talking, sex, coffee dates or catching up now and then will change his mind. As a general rule though, if someone <b>breaks up with you</b>, they've already made their decision. All the best.

Br0na Thu 22-Aug-13 07:27:16

true, I had to break up with somebody last year and even though he was an incredibly mature person so if he'd been a colleague I think we could have been friends, but the truth is I thought about it carefully before I broke up with him. Most people think about it before they go ahead and say the words.

Wow! You really are behaving like a teenager. Ok try being 'friends' with him if you like (what does this mean? You manipulate him into coming to your house weekly where you berate him about not looking pleased to be there and pretend you don't want to shag him?) but you really should let this fizzle out now, he has been as clear as he can be that he's not interested.
As to why he keeps coming round - maybe he's bored, lonely, maybe he wants to keep the sex option open, maybe he's spineless and can't say no. Who knows. But he has told you with words and actions that he doesn't want a relationship. Respect him, and yourself, and believe him.

PookyWooky Thu 22-Aug-13 09:24:53

What we have here is a dumping cliche. Just like "I need some space", "it's not you it's me". Most of us will have said/heard these lines at some point in our lives.

Accept that this is over/going nowhere, walk away with your dignity and get on with your life and find someone who wants to be with you without question.

'Damaged' or not, ime men are very clear if they do actually want to be in a relationship with someone. They do not dither.

Everyone in this thread has said he does not want to be with you and to walk away. Some relationships end. It can be hard to accept. But at some point you need to do just that.

scrazy Thu 22-Aug-13 09:30:39

I thought about loneliness too as a reason for saying he will come round. He might do this until he meets other people who are willing to let him come round. Sorry to sound harsh.

Leverette Thu 22-Aug-13 09:42:24

grin at Leavenheath

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 08:33:55

Thanks everyone.

There's a lot of history I haven't gone into - I have a severely physically disabled child and there were concerns over whether he could cope with that (and his part as well as mine), whether I could allow him to be a part of our life as it is very stressful at times - I agree that if you love someone then those issues maybe aren't as big of an issue as otherwise, but there were A LOT of 'little things' that all add up to huge barriers when put together.

This is why I said - genuinely - I don't know whether I wanted a relationship; I don't even know whether it's just a case of wanting what I can't have or not liking to be told 'no'.
Maybe it's the inner child stamping my feet, I'm really not sure at all.

BUT his past relationship history and the issues surrounding us which would make it very difficult for us to be together, coupled with the fact that he only finished a year-long relationship back in January so was probably still in that rebound stage when he met me, I really feel that he WAS genuinely confused, the idea of a relationship seems like a nice idea to him (as it does me), but when I started panicking as soon as he started saying The L Word, then he finished things and I turned into the epitome of the stereotypical nagging wife; keeping tabs on him, asking him to come over every few days and then when he wasn't able to come over, having a go at him saying he should make time for me - we weren't even together at that point yet I was acting as though we were in a serious relationship - I'm not blaming myself completely, not at all as he had his part to play in it, but I can see why if you're a bit tentative about getting into another relationship, my behaviour would freak you out.

I spoke to a (male) friend of mine, told him exactly what I've written here and all the extra details and issues, and he reckons that this guy is still hurt over the loss of his last relationship, his marriage and everything in between, has been almost permanently on the rebound and that the idea of getting into something serious again, scares the life out of him.

scaevola Fri 23-Aug-13 08:48:47

Could you answer the question from levenheath ?

CinnabarRed Fri 23-Aug-13 09:18:45

My thought exactly Leavenheath!

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 09:31:57

What does career choice matter? For the record though, no he's not.

I have already told everyone my child is severely physically disabled and attends a special school with about 5 staff and I don't think there even is a 'janitor'. Don't schools have teams of cleaners nowadays anyway?

OK, I appreciate that your circumstances are tricky WRT to your DC making it a bit more difficult to socialize. However this man is not the solution to your problems. I can see how it would be tempting to cling on to the slightest possibility of a relationship, but it's really not going to work in this case because he doesn't want a relationship with you.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 10:57:06

I'm fine on my own - always have been.

I'm not looking for a solution to my problems or clinging to anything.

I like the guy, don't know if I want a relationship with him - or anyone - but enjoy his company, that's about as far as it goes.

solidgold - I'm not saying you're wrong, but isn't it ever possible then for a man to be genuinely confused about things or scared of getting into another relationship? Why is they always get labelled as game players or not interested?

HotDAMNlifeisgood Fri 23-Aug-13 11:07:36

Yes, he might be genuinely scared, cherrysparkles, but that in itself places him in the category of "not interested". Yes? If he is genuinely scared of a relationship, then his fear wins out over his desire to be with you.

The result, for you, is the same: a man who does not want a relationship with you. Agonising over why is only so much headfuckery. Move on, do your thing. If he gets over his fear, he will find ways to seek you out and tell you so. But in the meantime, it is far better for your emotional health to just back off, cut contact, heal, stop overthinking, and get over your emotional investment in him, because otherwise you will only be causing yourself pain.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 11:15:01

Yes I agree with that.

But he hasn't seen enough of me and doesn't know me well enough (when we were 'together', we either talked about really deep stuff or the surface things, nothing in between) to make a favourable decision towards me...in the future once he's ready for a relationship... I'm in no way saying that even if he was in 'that place' and wanting a relationship that he'd choose me, but I thought staying in contact and seeing him occasionally would be a way to let him see the more positive side of me and then I could back off once we'd had a few positive meetings. That's all I was planning.

We will cross paths for the forseeable future anyway as we live in a small village as I said, so I will always see him to say hello to. I just wanted a few chances to have a laugh together rather than the constant agro he has had off me recently.

gingerpig Fri 23-Aug-13 12:06:42

but all this planning means you are still trying to manipulate him into some sort of a relationship, be it friends or more.

it doesn't work like that. friendship will happen if it's meant to, not because you create a favourable (and artificial) climate for it.

zombiesheep Fri 23-Aug-13 14:37:35

OP would you please listen to yourself.

mirry2 Fri 23-Aug-13 16:54:11

OP how old are you? You sound as if you're living out a teenage fantasy

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Fri 23-Aug-13 17:37:34

"I thought staying in contact and seeing him occasionally would be a way to let him see the more positive side of me and then I could back off once we'd had a few positive meetings. That's all I was planning."

For goodness sake drop all of this utter nonsense.

Put your energy in to something worthwhile and positive.

There's far too much manipulation in this whole scenario, and for what -to prove that you are really an okay and normal individual?

You do not have to prove yourself to anyone, so for your own good, let this go and for God's sake try to get a grip on normal life and normal friendships.

CinnabarRed Fri 23-Aug-13 17:49:45

But he hasn't seen enough of me and doesn't know me well enough

Yes he has and yes he does.

Spickle Fri 23-Aug-13 18:35:21

Been in a similar situation, desperate to remain "friends" after an intense relationship. We remained "friends" for 15 months, then he met someone else, phoned to let me know and that was the last contact we had. I look back now and know that being "friends" wasn't good for me. I was devastated when the relationship ended and thought we could continue a genuine friend relationship, but he was just dangling a carrot which meant I didn't and couldn't move on. He had tired of me and had agreed to remain "friends" for my benefit. The fact that we are no longer in contact finally enabled me to see the truth - he was never a friend.

Until you see the light, no-one can advise. It is your decision and you will learn from the mistakes made.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 19:05:17

Yes but he's good friends with two of his exes - not meeting up, but occasional contact through text and things like that. I know this, as we have mutual friends.

Why would he drop me?

So basically any man that seems confused about his feelings and is emotionally scarred or whatever you want to call it - isn't really 'damaged' and is just pretending?

Or every man that says he wants to remain on good terms with an ex is lying and only saying that to placate the 'dumped party' or seem 'kind'?

As that's what you seem to all be saying...

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 19:16:37

if he has two exes he's friends with I don't think he's damaged no!

you say he doesn't know you well enough to know that you could be friends. well, you can't know him well enough to know that he's worth all this analysis then.

if you see him in the village just say a friendly hello and if you're walking towards each other I'd say "sorry, can't chat, i'm running late, hope you're well!".

meditrina Fri 23-Aug-13 19:18:18

"Why would he drop me?"

Because he does not want a relationship with you

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 19:24:43

Chl0e what do you mean? About not being damaged if he's friendly with two of his exes?

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 19:27:45

I thought you were wondering if it was a sign that he was damaged and that that was why he doesn't want to be friends. But I think that that's very unlikely. I am capable of being friends with a couple of exes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I can be bothered. I have friends. I want to either meet new people, or socialise with the friends I already have. I can't spare the time to be friendly with exes. So I understand really.

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 19:32:02

I mean, he is friendly with two exes, so he is capable of leaving a relationship without bad feeling. But then again, maybe he's stringing them along, but I don't think so because he's not stringing YOU along. I think he's been fairly honest with you! He doesn't want a relationship or a friendship and in a way I admire you that you have a healthy enough self-esteem that you can't process that information. I would be listing off all my own flaws! But channel that confidence. If he doesn't want you, he's not capable of really appreciating you. I know it sounds like a trite platitude but as I get older I am less prepared to waste a second on somebody who is meh so so about me. I am not going to push water uphill and try and convince them to get me, to value me. They either do, or they don't. And I've been single for years, but still I just haven't the energy for relationships where the other person is doing you a favour or giving you a trial period.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 19:35:17

No, he says he wants to be friends - we were on the phone the other day and it cut out three times, all three times he text me back to say he hadn't hung up and he rang me back.

He doesn't like talking on the phone, especially about feelings etc (which is what we were talking about this time) and usually if the phone cuts out it's because he's hung up on me, and he certainly never phones me back, so this time was different to usual.

Not saying that's proof of anything in particular, but if he doesn't want to remain friends/isn't interested in me, why would he bother phoning me back THREE TIMES when the phone cuts out because of signal?

Another thing is I text him about a week ago; something boring about me and him and how he changed his mind, he didn't reply so I didn't contact him and then three days later, he replied with a long text answering my questions.
I hadn't contacted him during that time so really if he didn't want to be in touch with me, he had every chance then not to reply, didn't he?

Some may say he was just being polite but trust me, there was a time in the past when we had a huge row, (a few months ago), and he decided he didn't want to contact me ever again as we were "definitely finally over" and he DID ignore my texts, for about a week. And he only started replying once I'd gone to see him in person. So he has the capability to ignore...and ignore...and ignore if he wants to.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 19:37:15

Chl0e I'm really not 'saving myself' for him in the hope he will suddenly decide I'm the one for him, trust me.

I went on a date this afternoon in fact and we got on well, but there was no spark unfortunately.

So I DO get that sometimes, someone just isn't right for you.

I just think that there WAS something between us; at the very least, a good friendship.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 19:37:56

Oh and sorry for all the posts but Chl0e - where did you get that he's said he doesn't want a friendship?

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 19:42:55

oh, maybe you didn't say that. Maybe he never said it. But it seems I saw it in my crystal ball, and in my tea leaves!
also, in your last post you say he can ignore you all week quite easily.

This much analysis is pointless. you say you were out with somebody else. that's good!

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 19:57:43

Yes, he's done this "we won't work/I don't want a relationship thing before", then ignored me for a week (after a dramatic "I can't keep doing this to youuuuuu!" type message), then I went to see him, he came to see me, then he started saying (again) he doesn't know what he wants as he doesn't want a relationship but there's something about me that he can't stay away from, and now we're back to where we are now.

I don't know, whatever. I've bored myself now.

FYI thought I've been talking to other men all along, the only time I stopped was when we started seeing each other 'properly' and he said he didn't want to share me, so I stopped dating other men.

I have a couple of long term male friends that have expressed an interest in me many times over the years, one lives down South now but we'll be meeting up when one of us is near the other (probably Xmas time now), so I'm not cutting out all other options to chase this man...I just wanted to keep friendly with him that's all.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Fri 23-Aug-13 20:09:48

"I thought staying in contact and seeing him occasionally would be a way to let him see the more positive side of me and then I could back off once we'd had a few positive meetings. That's all I was planning."

THEN YOU SAY:

"I'm not cutting out all other options to chase this man...I just wanted to keep friendly with him that's all."

Which is it?

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 20:15:38

I used to be like you. and then I read he's just not that in to you and I also read a book by sherry argov. i'm sorry to say that I regret my early years, the delusion, believing that I could win someone round, make them feel differently about me.

Honestly, HOW MANY TIMES have you met somebody, gone out with them, broken it off with them and then changed your mind and taken them back because now you know them better?!

I aint judgin' you. You're the one who had a date yesterday! I keep meaning to try and date. confused

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 20:18:22

keepcool it could be both! but I guess the man is intuitive enough to know that sparkly isn't ho hum enough about him to be friendly. A big row means injured feelings. Feelings aren't injured by somebody you don't feel for. It aint rocket science. He knows one way or another that your feelings for him aren't inclined towards friendship. Your plan, although entirely human, and I've hatched similar plans myself in my youth, is not really honest with yourself, and he knows that before you do.

mirry2 Fri 23-Aug-13 20:23:47

Op you're going round and round in circles in your head and it's coming across as an obsession.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 20:24:53

keepcool - both. I said before; I like the guy, our interests (quite alternative), basic personalities, beliefs etc fit together really well, it's just his constant flip-flapping that confused me, and I don't handle confusion well. I became naggy and always asking him what was going on whenever I saw him, so then he'd get annoyed and - well you know the rest.
As I said, all the way through I've been talking to other men, I have these two friends that are interested in me but are also proper friends (they even offer genuine unbiased advice on my relationship stuff which I think is amazing for them to be able to do), I went on this 'date' today...

But I wanted to keep friendly with him, have him be able to come over once in a while for a coffee and a chat and still talk to other people as well, as he could; as we're both single. I wouldn't want to kiss him, have sex with him or anything like that, it'd be strictly platonic and if feelings developed in future for him towards me then great, if not then we'll have a good friendship there hopefully. OR something could happen with one of these other men I'm chatting to, or he could meet someone.

That's all I've been meaning all along.

Chl0e - I see your point, it's just as he says, he never says never and if circumstances were right (with anyone else he's been out with too in the past) then he'd be willing to try again if the feelings were there; which yes is a bit of a cliche, but surely also true.

I get feelings disappearing; when I see my ex, I feel nothing and would never, ever want to get back together with him.And this is the man I had a child with.

BUT this man put up with so much from me over the past 6 months, things that a lot of men wouldn't. So he's either a very, very patient man or there was something there between us.
And before anyone says sex was keeping him coming back; I have issues around that due to my past. He knows that, so the majority of times we either started to have sex but stopped a few mins later, or we just didn't.

froubylou Fri 23-Aug-13 20:27:35

Dear lord woman without being awful I think you have been dumped. In fact I know you have. And now you are looking for a clue, a sign of anything at all that says otherwise.

Just leave him alone. Let him be. Don't call or txt and after a week definitely don't go around and see the poor bugger!

Your feelings for him will pass I promise.

I've been in exactly the same situation and behaved in my exactly the same way so I know how you are feeling.
But I was very young and silly over it and I don't think you can live fully without a good old fashioned case of unrequited love!

And if it makes you feel any better I saw my ex, the one that got away (as fast as he could pmsl) last year in the supermarket. Didn't feel a thing for him other than slight surprise at his obviously boys only trolley and receded hairline.

And I have aged a lot better than him!

So chin up chuck. It happens to us all at some point but we do get over it I promise.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 20:30:52

Chl0e - just read your last post.

This man has brought up so many things in the past few weeks; I mentioned that he had agreed to be open minded and go with the flow regarding me and him, he said "but one minute you say you want a relationship and the next you don't". Then I say the same about him, he then says "but you said you wanted me to be open minded, so I came around with an open mind and you stayed as far away from me as you could, and then argued with me".

He says the things I say (negative things) hurt him deeply, and keeps saying I accuse him of lying, which he says hurts him - I'm not accusing him of lying, just saying he's changed his mind a lot so how am I to know what's real.

He even had a go at me the other day, saying that months ago when we talked about moving in together (when we were 'properly' together), he said "we talked about moving in and I thought it was a really good idea, then the minute I did that, you started freaking out and being horrible to me. It's like you just want the opposite of what I want all the time".

Maybe he just likes a row :/

NameThatTuna Fri 23-Aug-13 20:46:48

Reading your last post, put together with your previous posts, you sound incredibly manipulative.

You're constantly attention seeking and creating dramas all the time. No wonder he is running in the opposite direction.

Also your other male friends. Supposedly 'good' friends of yours but they have always had a thing for you.

From what you've said about this man and your male friends, it seems to me like you want these men to fawn over you all the time.

I think your ego is seriously damaging your perspective of what's a normal healthy friendship/relationship.

You sound like hard work.

Silverfoxballs Fri 23-Aug-13 20:50:22

I am exhausted just reading this let alone living it, for the sake of everyone's sanity just leave well alone.

mirry2 Fri 23-Aug-13 20:53:40

Overthinking.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 20:55:45

Tuna - not at all, I have two friends that I have known (seperately) for ten years, I liked them years back but never told them, we happened to chat one day and both admitted they had liked me back when I had liked them. These were seperate chats, neither of the guys know each other as I met them at different times.

One is single, one isn't and the single one still says he likes me, I still like him but he lives too far away to do anything about it, plus he's a bit younger than me and still has life to live.

I talk to them as friends, I don't flirt or anything like that; they're mates.

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 20:56:19

well mirry no offence but just don't read.

I dont see the point of either of your posts?

cherrysparkles Fri 23-Aug-13 20:57:18

Hang on..Tuna, how does the last post you refer to, make me manipulative?

NameThatTuna Fri 23-Aug-13 21:09:39

What's the point you asking me a question OP?

I'll answer you, you'll reply with another loooooong story as to why he acts the way he does, the way you do and so on.

mirry2 Fri 23-Aug-13 21:15:47

That's ok Cherry I'm not offended (no offence wink) Both my last posts are making the same point as all the other posters.

cerealqueen Fri 23-Aug-13 21:17:34

OP, you remind me of how I'd be over a guy when I was 17. No relationship should be this hard work and if it is, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is all too much, you aren't good as a couple and you can't be friends, can't you see that? Friends don't behave like this.

My advice? Only date men who bring added benefits to your life, and vice versa.

Stop contact, move on.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Fri 23-Aug-13 21:24:54

Seriously Cherrysparkles - ANY sort of relationship should not be this complicated and involve second guessing etc (men like a simple life, really they do).

A good relationship happens naturally or it will not happen at all.

I think you should stop flogging a dead horse.

Chl0e Fri 23-Aug-13 21:51:16

I feel addled after the last few posts, but I can laugh about it. I hope you can OP, because it's funny. Can you see that! just participating on this thread has me addled, and thinking who said that he said that she said that he didn't want a friendship. come on, it's funny. It is.
Did you meet the guy you went on the date with yesterday on line/?

Cherry, think about the fact that your behaviour is abusive. There are not very many cases when 'reverse the gender and then see what people think' is appropriate but it is here. This man has communicated in every way he can that he doesn't want to be your boyfriend. You have continued to push his boundaries and harass him and insist that 'you know he wants it really. 'You don't seem to understand that he is not your property, not your project and not too stubborn or stupid to be your boyfriend but that he doesn't want to be your boyfriend. Leave him alone. He is currently spending his time going 'oh fuck she's phoned me again, she's saying she wants to be friends but every time I'm anywhere near her she's crawling all over me, it creeps me out.'

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 07:35:32

That isn't what happens at all!

Fucking crawling all over him!?

No.

If I'm phoning him so much and he's saying oh crap every time I do, then why doesn't he grow a pair and cut me out completely? He's done it (apparently) with previous exes, with friends that have done him over, I've already said; he has a job in the public sector where he has protection, of sorts, where he could make it very difficult for me to be in touch with him if he was worried that cutting me out would mean I went all stalker on him, he's also part of a union so could get advice that way if he wanted rid of me. How much does it cost to change a number these days? £1.00?

I'm not saying he does or should want to be my 'boyfriend', what I'm saying is he went from 0-60 in 3 weeks, telling me he loved me already and wanted to move in, then I started pushing him away as it freaked me out, he took it another 3 weeks then said he had to finish it as he wasn't emotionally strong enough or something like that.

Then for 4 weeks he said he couldn't see a future for us, there was too much in the way, that kind of thing but he kept saying he had strong feelings for me but was worried they might have just been physical....but then they didn't feel just physical to him as he thought about me "mentally and emotionally too".

He said I am always on his mind....he said he misses me when he doesn't see or speak to me, even when we've been arguing. He said that even when we argue, he just wants to hold me and hug me. (He last said that 2 weeks ago, just before he went away.)

2 months ago he started saying his feelings had all but disappeared, he shouldn't see me again, then I went to see him (as I said before) and he did come to see me again; and was back to the "my feelings never went, I just said that as I was pissed off at the time) stuff.

So then it started with him being confused again and saying all that positive stuff; all the way through this, every time he's been around I've been mostly getting annoyed with him that he's changing his mind all the time and we've ended up arguing.

It's only since he went away though that he's been saying this stuff about only wanting to be friends.

So how has he been telling me loud and clear that he doesn't want to be with me?

I think if someone acts so intensely when they are with you; passionately kissing you and saying "why can't I just be with you? what's stopping me?" and then saying they wish they weren't emotionally messed up...then they could be with me.
He kept saying that since his ex wife, he's jumped into things far too quickly and it's always gone wrong, that he's never had a relationship lasting past a year so what's the point in trying.

Just sounded more 'damaged' than 'not interested' to me.

AuntieStella Sat 24-Aug-13 07:43:35

Sounds like an utter arse, TBH.

But the message he keeps coming back to is "no"

Move on.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 08:03:29

Yes, well I agree with that.

But I wondered/hoped whether it might be more "no" because he's not ready for anything rather than "never".

As I said, I'm not pining for him as much as it seems that way on here.

He came round about a month ago and spent 4 hours here saying he couldn't have a relationship with anyone as he was "fucked" and it made him sad, as he thought I was good for him.
I then tried to convince him that he should meet someone - not me - and maybe it's just me that's making him feel messed up. He was denying it but I kept saying he should get out there...next thing I know, he's joined a dating website (I'm on there too, it's a paid one and I had just searched men in my area, he popped up).

I phoned him and he said he had arranged a date for that weekend with someone, our chat the previous night had made him realise he DID want a relationship but I'm not right for him, so he needed to find someone he was right for. That upset me, so I left him alone.

A week later he contacted me, it got round to his date and he said they'd mutually not felt anything but she had gone to the loo, came back and said she was going to go, he felt ok with that so they both agreed not to see each other again. He also mentioned he had a date with another woman for the following weekend, but would come and see me on the Saturday (he didn't say why).

I phoned him on the Sat evening and he asked to come over, I agreed and he told me he had been on that date that afternoon (got home 3 hours before I rang him) and that it hadn't lasted long, as she had liked him (and told him so) but he hadn't felt anything for her. I got cross with him that he wasn't giving these women a proper chance; only seeing them once and not going for a second date, and he said "I only joined that website to try and get you out of me head, it didn't work and I felt nothing for those women at all. So I'm coming off the website".
And he did come off it the next day.

If he had just been after sex from me, then why didn't he pursue things with the woman who was interested in him? He got up the effort to go on the first date which is the biggest hurdle surely?

Was he just messing me around then? keeping me as back up? If so then why come off the dating website after only 2 dates?

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 08:17:06

What I really mean by that last post, is if he really isn't interested and was either just using me or trying to get rid, then why did he go on dates with those two women and know he didn't feel anything, but with me he's spent 5 months feeling something but not being sure what it is?

Why didn't he just feel nothing? He obviously is capable of knowing his true feelings towards others so why not me?

FatalFlowerGarden Sat 24-Aug-13 08:20:21

Why would you want someone who is 'damaged' anyway?

Honestly, it is exhausting just reading all this, so goodness knows what it must be like living it.

A good relationship is not difficult. You don't have to wonder, or second guess, or analyse. It just happens. It's a cliche but it's absolutely true. If it's this much hard work then it's NOT RIGHT.

And SGB is correct. Read your posts back. At best you sound like my secret diary when I was 14 and at worst you sound, well, downright unhinged tbh.

Really, Leave It Alone. You're not star crossed lovers, you're not even friends.

Please let it go, it isn't going to go anywhere.

He's a head fuck. I suspect you are too. You are both behaving like teenagers in your emotional maturity levels. Please, let it go and go and do some hard thinking about what you expect from relationships and men because it's all wrong.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 09:38:20

So if he keeps in touch and continues to want to see me?

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 09:41:52

Fatal - thats my point, it WAS 'just happening' in the beginning.

But there were so many things against us that yes could be worked through individually, but when there are a lot of them, added to the fact he's worried about getting into a serious relationship as he doesn't want to have to make the effort to see someone at set times, AND the fact I've been arguing with him and nagging every time he comes over anyway...would that not put you off?

But I'm just saying why does that mean it has to be over for good? Presuming he wants to (and if he doesn't, he won't) keep seeing me as a friend and we get on well without doing anything physical, then why isn't it possibly that MAYBE feelings might redevelop or get stronger? In 6/12/18 months time of consistently getting on?

And if they don't, we'll be friends at the very least.

Why is that an alien concept to all of you?

Have you read the replies and taken in anything that people have written in reply?

You appear to be ignoring everything and just writing long winded essays.

happyinherts Sat 24-Aug-13 10:03:54

It's not so much an alien concept, it's just that far more often than not it leads to more heartache than it's worth. One party is usually far more invested into pursuing the friendship / relationship and you really cannot make someone be your friend.

I've been there. I took rejection badly, over analysing things, like you are. I wanted to remain friends for two reasons a) I thought it civilised behaviour. If you can share what we did, surely a hello, how are you isn't out the question and share a coffee b) I couldnt face him walking away (no arguing involved - he couldnt handle emotion) I wanted the break up on my terms, just be friends and then phase it out gradually.

If I'm honest, I didnt want to break up with him at all, but this is what I learnt and you must too - if someone really wants to be with you, they will move heaven and earth to do it. Some people are cowards, they cant say the actual words, hope you get the hint and if you don't they become frustrated and flip. This man is in danger of this because you do sound a bit manipulating. You are going to have to give up on this, leave well alone because all this isn't making you happy, is it? Neither is it helping you move on.

You will, in time, come to the realisation that a one-sided relationship can't happen. Please don't waste your time and effort on him. He really isnt worth it. However all the mums on mumsnet cant make you see that. You have to see it yourself and one day soon I hope you can.

FatalFlowerGarden Sat 24-Aug-13 10:05:31

Read. Your. Posts.

'There are so many things against us'
'He's worried about getting into a serious relationship'
'He doesn't want to have to make the effort' (nice, that's my favourite)
'I keep arguing with him and nagging him'

That's just from the last one!

Listen, and I mean this kindly, because we've all been there with the overthinking at least once in our lives. Get a grip. You are absolutely on a hiding to nothing with this one. It is not a friendship, it is not a relationship. It will never be either of those things. It's not us who can't get the concept here, it's you.

If, if, if and why, why why means the end of something, not the beginning. You need to let it go. Seriously.

Spickle Sat 24-Aug-13 10:06:58

It is not an alien concept. There are a lot of posters here who have been through the same and come out the other side. They are trying to help you not make the same mistakes, but I guess you are not going to take their advice which is why I said earlier that you will learn soon enough through your own mistakes. One day, you can read this thread back and realise how futile your attempts at trying to get him to redevelop his feelings are. He may be happy to be friends at the moment, but long term, maybe not??

Unfortunately you cannot make someone love you and I think he's made it clear that he doesn't love you.

If you can become friends without romantic feelings on either side then it could work. Just think how you would feel if he did meet someone that he fell in love with and wanted to be with all the time and you become relegated to someone he says hello to once in a while. Hopefully, you'll be ok about this and pleased for his happiness, but if you're likely to feel envious or hurt at the change of your status, then I think you will not be able to be friends with this man.

Spickle Sat 24-Aug-13 10:13:11

happyinherts that's exactly what I went through and you have put it so eloquently. OP is going to experience the same if she will not listen to the excellent advice on here.

FatalFlowerGarden Sat 24-Aug-13 10:22:50

<< if someone really wants to be with you, they will move heaven and earth to do it >>

^^ this. That's it. This is how it is. It's hard to hear when you're in the middle of something much messier that you still have hopes for but really, this is all there is. Why would you want anything less?

Silverfoxballs Sat 24-Aug-13 10:49:55

Why would anyone stay friends hoping that at some point the object of their desire will suddenly have a lightbulb moment and realise their mistake. That appears to be what you want and there lies madness. Seriously op you will make yourself ill if you carry on with your agenda.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 11:38:25

No that isn't what I want at all.

I've said, I don't know whether I could be with him even if he had wanted to.

I don't know if my 'feelings' are really - as he says they are - that I just want the opposite of what he wants.

If he wasn't bothered, why on earth did he keep bringing up the fact I wasn't affectionate towards him? Why does he keep saying "you keep telling me one minute you want a relationship and then you don't" - why should he be bothered about what I want, if he knows he doesn't want a relationship.

I'm not saying he's madly in love with me, far from it. But when he suggested friends, I said he means acquaintances and he said "no, I mean I don't know what will happen in future; as far as I can see I want to be on my own. I need to be friends with someone before anything more and we can't even be friends at the moment.
I was with my ex wife for years and years and kept trying to give affection and was rejected; I don't want to put anyone else through that nor be in that situation again myself. I like you a lot, but I can't have my cake and eat it any more if I can't have a relationship - with anyone. If I wanted to be in a relationship, I'd want to give it a good go with you as you're great, but I just want and need to be on my own.
Maybe we will be friends for the next 20 years, which would be nice, maybe it will just peter out over the next few weeks or months or maybe...well I don't know as I haven't got a crystal ball and feelings and circumstances change".

Now. I'm not saying that was anything to cling on to at all; but if he wants nothing more to do with me, instead of going into that huge monologue (and he's not a big talker). why didn't he just agree with me and hang up?

Viviennemary Sat 24-Aug-13 11:52:10

I think he doesn't know what he wants. But wants to leave his options open with you. And see how it goes. But doesn't want to commit himself in any way.

I don't think it's worth all this angst on your behalf. (I look back at a time when I did this and think why on earth!) He doesn't seem to want a complete break from you and never to see you again but what else is in his mind who knows. I expect he doesn't even know himself. It seems as if he's trying to tell you not to hope for a secure relationship and future with him. But nobody knows what is in his mind.

happyinherts Sat 24-Aug-13 11:52:27

....the big monologue behaviour...

Listen, I will tell you why?

He wants you to be the one who initiates a break up? It saves him being blunt and saying it outright, but let's face it he's already says he doesn't want to make the effort, doesn't want to have cake and eat it, wants to be on his own etc. LISTEN - TAKE NOTE

Read- Baggage Reclaim. He's just not that into you.

You dont seem to want to take advice from people who have been in your situation. You seem to want to convince us all that this guy wants you in his life. He's twisted. He's a coward.

Sooner or later he is really going to flip because you haven't taken his hint. He is going to insult you to get away because he wil get more and more frustrated. Read that second to last para -- sorry, and I truly am sorry because I've been there, but he is trying to let you down gently.

You. Are. A. Head. Fuck.
He. Is. A. Head. Fuck.
Leave well alone. Whether he wants to see you 'as friends' or not.
Leave it alone! You are starting to look seriously unhinged with your endless analysis and speculation.
Just leave it alone. And get some self esteem. Or boundaries. Or whatever it is you're lacking that makes you behave that way.

Walkacrossthesand Sat 24-Aug-13 12:36:01

Also, cherry, it doesn't matter what 'would' have happened if X,Y,Z. You say yourself you're not sure if you'd want a relationship with him even if he did - so hold that thought and run with it. If he wants to come round for coffee, he can, but you sit on different chairs (none of this 'not sitting too close together on the sofa' nonsense); you dont ask him if he liked it better when you were 'together'; you chat about this and that like you would with a friend, you don't talk At All about the nature of your 'relationship'. And if you don't think you can manage that, you make an excuse and he doesn't come round - you meet up in a group with friends. You do have mutual friends, right? And remember - it doesn't matter what would have happened if you'd behaved differently - the way you're behaving now is unhealthy and needs to stop.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 12:54:24

WALK - that's what I was planning on doing - I only have a sofa in my house, but it's big; so I'd be at one end, he'd be at the other and all we would talk about is general stuff, like I would a friend.

That's what I've been saying!

Everyone else - I just thought the same as Viviennemary; that he wanted to keep his options open and didn't really know what he wanted.

Spickle Sat 24-Aug-13 13:45:25

Cherry, I am quoting from your OP:

*Chances of reconciliation with an ex you're 'friends' with?

is there potential for feelings to develop on his part (if they were ever going to, I know there is only a slim chance anyway) or will he 'friend zone' me and therefore never see me in 'that' way again?

I admit, I'm confused as to how feelings come about anyway - my ex said that he realises now that he has to be friends with a woman before getting involved with dating or a relationship, but can you ever be friends with an ex (genuine friends, with no physical contact) and then rekindle a relationship?*

You are not sure if you want a relationship and he is not sure either, but the above indicates that you want to "rekindle a relationship", not be a "friend".

So, which is it?

NameThatTuna Sat 24-Aug-13 13:48:19

If you don't want a relationship with him, why all this angst and speculation?

Why give a fuck?

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 14:36:12

Because I like him! At the beginning, he was lovely - although we have mutual friends I've seen him and his now-ex wife around before we got 'involved', but didn't really know what he was like apart from to chat to in the pub with all of us.

Anyway, as I said; we got involved, he was lovely, if a little bit 'intense'. Three weeks in as I said, we started talking about being in love and moving in together within the next couple of weeks, then I realised it was far too soon and it all went wrong. If he hadn't been so...I can't even think of another word apart from intense and emotional; all the hand wringing type stuff - 'I care about you but are there too many barriers, can I take you on' type stuff followed swiftly by "there is something about you that makes me not want to lose you totally", if he had been more stable with his emotions then he'd be perfect, as underneath all that we get on so, so well. Although as I said, I went loco too.

Spickle - what I meant by that is as I said all along; we've talked in the past about his exes and I've asked if he'd ever try again with them or whether he is the type to think once it's over, it's over.
He said they're attractive women and he can still see that, but the sexual attraction isn't there anymore; however if they wanted to meet up and they both had feelings, then he wouldn't rule out trying again, with any one of his exes.

So, based on that he's not one to say "never again" (although maybe he has with me...)

I was therefore wondering whether - basically, if it's possible for feelings to disappear completely and then redevelop over time.

I used my child's father as an example; I feel nothing for him, am completely neutral. I only started feeling this way back in Feb after we had been split for 2 years, but now I know that I could never, ever be with him again; apart from the fact he was violent, I could never see myself regaining feelings for him, I feel uncomfortable when he's around me, I don't like or want to spend time with him and want rid of him when he's here, asap.

This guy is saying he still enjoys my company (although he hasn't seen me in 2 weeks so maybe he will feel differently now) and wants to keep seeing me as friends; it's just before the sex thing got in the way - as he says he's not 'that' sort of person to have sex with someone, without being in or heading towards, a relationship.

We've discussed this at length before; was he only saying the 'positive' things about his feelings to justify sleeping with me? Was he confused? etc etc.

Going off on a tangent again, sorry.

I just basically wanted to know whether - assuming he had feelings and they've gone completely now, can exes start from scratch effectively; being friends with no feelings and then have some develop in future (and I mean 6-12 months plus in the future). I'm not saying I expected or wanted that to happen, just the possibility - as I have a possibility of feelings developing with anyone, in future.
I'm wording this so badly, but I just mean he says he can't predict the future and never says never, he reckons he wants to stay single fairly long term and isn't looking for anything, but I realise that the right one might come along and sweep him off his feet when he's not expecting it; and I really will be happy for him - sad that it's not me, but not heartbroken.

If we manage to stay friends and he comes over every so often for a coffee and a chat - and we talk AS FRIENDS, no 'us' talk, or anything like that; and we managed to get on for 6/12/18 months or whatever, it was relaxed and nice then could feelings potentially develop? Or is it a case of once they're gone, they're gone - however well two people get on?

Again I'll say, I'm not saying I'm holding out hope. I have no idea how I feel about him for sure, other than I like his company.

If we end up just staying friends forever then that's fine. If it peters out after 6 months...well then fine.

I'll shut up now as I'm not explaining this well at all.

daphnesglasses Sat 24-Aug-13 15:06:31

The issue isn't him it's your inability to let go.
It's OVER
Relationships are a two-person venture. You are not in one. You will no doubt find one with someone else. Not him. MOVE ON!!

Lizzabadger Sat 24-Aug-13 15:44:55

Go no contact.

PookyWooky Sat 24-Aug-13 17:22:09

He sounds like a complete tw*t.

Honey, by all means do the whole friendship thing and see if he will 'fall' for you all over again. Then we can all relive the rollercoaster as he blows hot, cold, intense, withdrawn all over again.

And for someone who doesn't like to talk about his feelings he spends an AWFUL LOT of time talking about them! What a waste of time and energy.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 17:41:05

Hmm, well I've been for assclowns and emotionally unavailable before...in fact my entire adult life.

I suppose I wanted to believe this one wasn't one of those and was genuinely just hurt from his marriage. But it DID end 8 or 10 years ago and he's had about 5 relationships since then (all lasting a year or less) so really, I suppose he should be over the marriage 'hurt' by now. Unless he never really dealt with it and has rebounding since then. I don't know.

daphnesglasses Sat 24-Aug-13 17:45:02

not your problem smile let him get on with it.

Anyway, hurt from his marriage=my arse. He's not that into you. Sorry but it sounds like a result anyway from your POV as he's a twat. Stop wasting time analysing this person now and move the spotlight onto you and your own life. You could read 'codependant no more' as well

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 17:55:23

Ok well he's not into me - but there must be something going on if he's had 5 relationships in the past 8-10 years and they've all ended after a year or less. He did tell me right at the beginning he gets cold feer after a year.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sat 24-Aug-13 18:05:26

#Hmm, well I've been for assclowns and emotionally unavailable before...in fact my entire adult life.#

Good, now I think you are starting to understand what everyone can see and is trying to tell you.

#He did tell me right at the beginning he gets cold feer after a year.#

Please don't flatter yourself (no disrespect) and think you might be able to change this pattern - YOU WILL NOT!
Please remember you have had a lucky escape.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 18:08:32

Well someone will be able to change it, surely? If he was married for 20-odd years then he's obviously not commitment phobic is he.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 18:10:32

And I could always see what you all meant, but I'm just saying that what's the difference between him and genuinely confused men? Or as I asked before...can't men be genuinely confused about feelings and circumstances without being labelled as users or twats?

BIWI Sat 24-Aug-13 18:14:57

Dearie me. I really think you need to get out a bit more, OP! And I mean that very genuinely and kindly.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 18:17:45

Why, BIWI? If I'm missing something (and I guess you're referring to my last post) then feel free to explain rather than just patronising.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 18:22:49

In fact, I would appreciate knowing the answer to my last question, so I know in future seeing as I'm so naive or whatever:

Can a man be genuinely hurt from a past relationship (and in this man's case, it was a 20 plus year marriage where he received no affection and was rejected any time he tried to give it...and that IS true as we all saw it for ourselves when they were out in public together!) and scared of getting into another serious relationship/any relationship (he had also not long split from another partner when I met him so was probably on the rebound) and be confused about his feelings and whether they are the 'right' type of feelings, or just physical/flattery/something similar?

And if so, when a man is in that situation, how would he act towards the woman in question? What's the 'proper' way for him to act towards her in that case?

Answers to this would greatly improve my chances of understanding men in future.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sat 24-Aug-13 18:46:26

Yes, possibly - but he does not want it to be with you.

I am in no doubt that you know better, and I would hedge my bets that because you are so obsessed with this man and emotionally unavailable men in general, you will pursue a relationship with him and it will be a complete and utter emotional disaster.

I actually think you need to do it to LEARN!

EaudeChl0e Sat 24-Aug-13 19:01:29

I think past experiences convince you not to proceed if it's not right. If you don't have faith that your personalities are compatible or if the other person's affection for you seems mismatched with your own, then past (painful) experiences will put a break on things quicker than the days before you had a difficult relationship and a break up under your belt.

But I believe that if you are aware enough to realise what went wrong the last time, then if it feels right and you just know and you feel happy being in the spotlight of somebody else's affection/love then you will proceed. But that's just me perhaps. My 'baggage' is entirely good in that it only stops me pushing water uphill. I can sort out the wheat from the chaff quicker and I won't try and turn a sow's ear in to a silk purse! enough clichés.

ThePonyFormerlyKnownAsTony Sat 24-Aug-13 19:08:49

I'm in my early twenties and frankly I'd be embarrassed if I had written all of this... You sound utterly obsessed.

You don't seem to be taking in any responses, just saying 'but why would he do x, y and z if he didn't want to be with me?!' You can manipulate anything he has said or done to make him sound like a troubled man who wants you and needs you but can't cope with his feelings. But he has told you HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE WITH YOU. Listen to him. Please.

From this man's point of view, you are acting like a bunnyboiler, you seem to have lost dignity. It is not attractive to beg somebody to stay over or to turn up at their house when they have ignored your calls for a week. It's not healthy.

Relationships (or friendships) shouldn't be this much drama.
Be single, enjoy not over-analysing every single thing an individual does or says.

Value yourself and hold out for somebody that genuinely wants to be with you and who you don't turn into a stalker for.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sat 24-Aug-13 19:15:21

Pony - you are going to go far.
I wish I had that much sense (and dignity) when I was your age x

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:18:16

Hmm I get what you're saying, Chl0e.

Well considering he didn't feel anything for me, he put 6 months of work in after he had finished things, and that was 6 months straight of total crap he got from me (well, he was doing the flip flapping, but I was being a bitch. Lol). We slept together twice in that time, rest of the time was him coming over, getting nagged at, trying to talk then going home again 3 hours later, so why he did it for so long I have no idea.

All the way through he kept saying it felt right and natural to be in my arms, as he put it.

Which is why I was under the illusion there was something 'real' there.

Plus, the fact that he seemed to want my affection, as when I had asked him to be open minded (meaning don't put 'us' into any particular category and just see what develops) and that meant I could act 'naturally' (as he kept telling me to do), he then always brought it up afterwards saying that I had the chance to act natural and be affectionate, but I stayed away from him.

Thinking about it ... the time I went to see him at home (to talk), admittedly I turned up unannounced but he let me in, told me to sit down then stared at the floor with his head in his hands for literally 45 minutes while I sat there asking him if he was going to listen to me.
Eventually he laid down on his back on the sofa, pulled me on top of him and I kind of shuffled to the side of him, then he just hugged me. He didn't do anything or put his hands anywhere, just lay there with me kind of half on top of him and half at the side of him, every time I tried to get up he pulled me back down again (not in an aggressive way) and then carried on staring at the ceiling with me lying on him.
Then I eventually got up, he said it was nice holding me like that and feeling my curves through my clothes (?) and even when I'd annoyed him by turning up like that, he still wanted to be close to me. Then he drove me home and said he didn't want to see me again (which lasted a week).

I know it doesn't matter now, but I did wonder what the hell THAT was!

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:21:30

Not making excuses for my behaviour Pony, but there were a lot of times when I was just talking to him, he would randomly just lay down on my sofa and then pull me down next to him; he's quite strong and when I resisted, he kept saying "please, I need to hold you". He never tried anything else on though which I found weird - just like the previous time I mentioned, he seemed more into the affection/closeness than the sex, which is why I (ok, wrongly) thought there were feelings behind it - and he was still doing that sort of thing up until he went away the week before last.

hollyisalovelyname Sat 24-Aug-13 19:21:44

Run.... for the hills
He's using you.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:23:09

And to be fair; he told me he didn't want to be with me in June, then 3 weeks later was back at mine saying "I don't know whether I'm madly in love with you, I think about you all the time " etc etc. So sorry if at first I was unsure whether he really meant it this time, or just needed me to stop questioning him.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:24:16

Yes but using me for what? That's what I don't get - if it was sex, then why would he be content to just hug me and keep his hands strictly above clothes and just resting on my back?

happyinherts Sat 24-Aug-13 19:25:43

Cherry, you don't need any of this. You don't need to accept crumbs off his plate either.

Read the post from Pony, a couple above yours, as she shows the maturity you should have achieved thus far in life.

This man may be emotionally unsure of himself, confused whatever - but please stop analysing his every word, every movement and stay away. This guy is unavailable due to present insecurities. Don'tchase it.

KellyHopter Sat 24-Aug-13 19:26:34

Did you look into the counselling which lots of posters advised on your previous identical threads?

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:27:43

I'm not saying I'm going to contact him (chase him, whatever you want to call it).

Just thought if you guys could try and shed some light on my questions then it saves me trying to get them from him, doesn't it.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:28:11

Kelly I've had counselling in the past.

EllaFitzgerald Sat 24-Aug-13 19:28:40

You can't possibly expect anyone to answer how 'a man' would act towards 'a woman' in any given situation. There are no set answers and you can't understand an entire gender. Everyone is different.

I've been in a similar situation, as I'm quite sure have an awful lot of others. I also assume you've got a lot on your plate with caring for your child's needs. You sound lonely and like you need some support, so I'm trying to be kind, but surely you must see that if every single response you've had on here is telling you that he's not interested in having a relationship with you, then the problem may be that you're just refusing to consider that possibility?

Your only other option is to decide that all of the unbiased and independent opinions on here are irrelevant and keep plugging away until he either runs out of patience and cuts you out of his life completely, or he messes up your head even more by stringing you along until he meets someone who he does want a relationship with and cuts you out of his life completely.

EaudeChl0e Sat 24-Aug-13 19:31:33

keeping his options open, that kind of using!?

But maybe not. Maybe he just thinks he's moved on and would throw his hands in the air if he knew there was so much analysis going on here.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:32:43

All I'm asking, is as unbiased people, IF he wasn't confused and he was never interested in me, then what WAS he doing bothering coming to see me twice a week for 6 months, when all he got was me arguing with him the minute he walked in the door (and the occasional cuddle)?

This 6 month time period was AFTER we had 'split up' and we had sex twice in that entire time.

So why did he do it? What was he gaining? As most of the time he was here, he was holding his head in his hands, sighing, pacing around and looking depressed! But not leaving.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:34:02

Well by rights if he's moved on, he will have no reason to see me next week.

If he wants nothing to do with me, then if I asked him to come over next week (and yes I probably will, to talk - not about 'us') then he'll either make his excuses or ignore my text?

EaudeChl0e Sat 24-Aug-13 19:34:36

It wasn't right for him to say that he's madly in love with you though, not if he clearly isn't. That is messing you about.

So much light has been shone on this break up that the glare must hurt. But I hope you have had a bit of fresh insight? I hope it's all been valuable?

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:37:18

Which is precisely why when he said it, coupled with the stuff I mentioned in my post at 7.32, it got me wondering whether he did have strong/confusing feelings for me.

But yes its been helpful, I'm not ignoring advice just trying to get answers to the other questions I had.

BIWI Sat 24-Aug-13 19:39:41

I didn't mean to be patronising - although I guess it was. Sorry.

But I ran out of steam reading all your over-analytic, obsessed posts. Honestly - take the advice that other posters have been giving you!

EllaFitzgerald Sat 24-Aug-13 19:43:54

Either...

-He's so emotionally damaged that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you; or
-He's a manipulative head fuck that enjoys messing you about and he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you; or
- He's a normal bloke who thought he liked you, got to know you a bit better and then realised that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you

Does it really matter which one of those he is? It still all boils down to the fact that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you.

EaudeChl0e Sat 24-Aug-13 19:44:48

I understand your torment honestly, You need to KNOW for certain before you can write him off and move on. But maybe you should write him off and move on not because he doesn't have feelings for you but because it's all too uncertain, and it seems like he is the one with the option to call on you. I don't think you have the option to dial him when you fancy it. So write him off and move on because you should look for an equal relationship where both parties can just text each other when they think of something to say, no worrying about whether they're scaring the other off, or whose turn it is to text. HOnestly I'd write this guy off, feelings or not feelings because you are only ever going to march to the beat of his drum if you get together. You're his option.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:49:11

Chl0e maybe it's a control issue - on my part.

Over the past 6 months since we split, as I said I've been asking him to come over, he said he was busy/tired/didn't think it was a good idea and everytime instead of accepting it, I'd badger and blackmail him, saying if he cared or has any respect for me he'd come over, and he did.

I suppose I thought by doing that I was controlling him...but then he stopped dancing to my tune and started refusing to come over any time I asked him to.

So maybe it WAS head fuck and he had never been dancing to my tune at all.

* shrugs *

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:53:02

And that IS what he said he wanted when he mentioned the friends thing; he said "just to be able to text when either one of us has something to say...you know, pleasant conversation, not planned, not argumentative, just acting how friends are supposed to".

But I probably would always be worried that I'd text him too often, or about the wrong thing, or whatever.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sat 24-Aug-13 19:53:16

#If he wants nothing to do with me, then if I asked him to come over next week (and yes I probably will, to talk - not about 'us') then he'll either make his excuses or ignore my text?#

Stop chasing him (don't even try to justify the reasons for calling/texting him). Have some self-respect.

Have you ever let someone do all the running?

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 19:54:58

But why shouldn't I be able to contact him? It's not about chasing; he said when he went away that he would come and see me when he gets back, so why shouldn't be allowed to just send a "hi, fancy a coffee?" text?

As I said, if he doesn't want to, he wont reply or he will make excuses.

EaudeChl0e Sat 24-Aug-13 19:57:00

wow. that's really honest of you to admit that. I think you can probably see that you need to be in control and that you can never be in control of another human being. If you find somebody you can love, who will just want to be with you because they love you too, then it won't be a control game, unless you make it one. I'm single! I haven't found lurrrrrrve by the way, so I aint sitting in my ivory tower here, telling you off like it's easy to find love. But you know what is easy?! avoiding bullshit and wankers and time wasters........ don't try to push water uphill. And if this man doesn't feel it's right, then it could never be right because he'd be fifty per cent of the equation, always. If he feels you're not compatible then it's just not right.

happyinherts Sat 24-Aug-13 19:58:22

so he said he was, busy, tired, didn't think it a good idea on top of not wanting to find the effort, have cake and eat it, etc ???

You are coming across as needy, clingy and desperate and it really isnt a good idea.

I tell you what - leave him totally alone for a day at a time until you get six months down the line and then come back and tell us if he contacted you as a friend in that time.

Until then I really think it's all been said

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 20:01:37

No I know that. I'm not trying to get him to change his mind.

As I keep saying, I wanted to stay on friendly terms as I like his company and he said he likes mine.

And to give it a chance to either fizzle out, or for us to be friends long term, OR for feelings to develop on both sides, if they were 'meant' to. I never wanted to push it or even hope for that to happen.

But I keep saying that and everyone tells me I'm wrong when I say it.

I don't like cutting people out, I tend to try and be polite to people.

Nothing to do with being weak willed, or a doormat, or desperate - we should have worked on friendship rather than getting into a 'fling'.

cherrysparkles Sat 24-Aug-13 20:07:12

I know, irrelevant but wanted to answer this anyway:

"so he said he was, busy, tired, didn't think it a good idea on top of not wanting to find the effort, have cake and eat it, etc ???"

He would come over on a Thursday, end up staying the night (but we'd be arguing most of the night as I can't sleep with him in my bed, so would ask questions about why he's so confused etc) and then I'd ask if he would see me the next week to try and get on better...he would agree, then he'd leave at 6am and later that day I'd ask him to come over that night rather than next week. He'd say he's too tired as we hadn't slept the previous night.

Or he'd tell me he could come over on X day, I'd ask him to come over after he'd been to the gym. He would say he'd prefer to come over the following day when he's had a chance to have a shower, walk his dog properly etc.

The not wanting to make the effort was worded as "I don't want to have to make the effort of going out, seeing someone - anyone - every week or having to answer to anybody. I want to be on my own for the forseeable" so it sounded to me like he doesn't want to be tied down.

ThePonyFormerlyKnownAsTony Sat 24-Aug-13 20:13:12

I'm slightly confused as to how you can like each others company: You've said that you argue all the time, you nag him, he sits in silence with his head in his hands, he tells you he loves you, he tells you he doesn't want to be with you.
That sounds like truly terrible company (from both sides) to me, I'm afraid. In fact, it sounds completely exhausting and draining.

Are you really sure you like each others company and you maybe aren't both a bit lonely and desperate and clinging on to each other just because you're both 'there'? Or maybe the 'relationship' has almost become a habit, a bit of excitement hmm when life gets a bit dull...?

And do you think you enjoy the drama? Does it feel passionate? I don't mean to be rude but I really do think you sound very immature and quite desperate.

You shouldn't call him simply because you seem to be the one doing all the pushing, if he wants to be your friend, he will call you.

I obviously don't know either of you, it's impossible to accurately interpret the situation from this thread alone but you certainly don't sound happy; it really isn't worth all this stress. Life isn't a dramatic romcom, if it takes up this much energy, it can't be worth it.

happyinherts Sat 24-Aug-13 20:14:35

cherry, I once thought the same as you, hence being able to write on the subject

I try to be polite to people. I don't like cutting people out. I wanted to stay friends with an ex because I saw no reason not to be. I accepted the fact (reluctantly at first) that the relationship had changed and wanted to remain on talking terms. Like you, this guy couldnt really handle emotions, I did not have a falling out with him and I wasnt aware until too late that he wanted out because similarly he was a coward and didn't say outright

In an ideal world we could and should have stayed friend. It isn't an ideal world because both parties don't always really have the same agenda or thoughts and unfortunately staying friends ultimately does more damage than its worth.

If I'm truly honest I'd love him to send a hello, how are you text. It's not going to happen because he wanted no contact. I could text him but I never will because it isnt an attractive trait to initiate contact and keep in touch. You lose dignity, pride, and come across as a sad case. Singing off different hymn sheets I'm afraid.

You can't make someone think the same way as you do.

something2say Sat 24-Aug-13 20:15:59

I can see that you like him and would like things to develop.
I think he also likes you.
The sitting with head in hands and all the dramatics and sighing prove that something is def going on.

So, yes, I think he is coming to see you for a reason, and he will continue to do so.

Qs is, do you want this? Like it is, like this?

I don't have to worry about how often I text my boyfriend. And it is a given that plans are for noth together, he is coming here or I am going there, and that it is ok to rely on him.

Do you want a relationship where you aren't sure, worry, question, have to control etc? That's the question as far as I can see xxx

God, I was like you in my twenties, I'm cringing reading your posts. I'm going to hug DH and thank him for staying with me. I don't know how he did it.

I know that nothing anyone says in this thread will change your mind, so do whatever you feel like. Just try to be discreet, as one day you will cringe when you look back (just like me).

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sat 24-Aug-13 20:38:55

You are yet again choosing to miss the point.
Leave him be and wait to see if he initiates contact. We all know he won't, and you also know he won't. This is why you sound like a manipulative and obsessive bunny boiler.
With respect, you would scare off any normal man. You are way way over the top. For your own sake, you seriously need to stop this deep obsessive thinking. TBH you come across as a bit of a nutter.

But why? But why? But why?
Oh. My. God.

KeepCoolCalmAndCollected Sat 24-Aug-13 21:14:03

Cherrysparkles
Apologies, my last sentence was very rude. It was said out of sheer frustration with you, but it was wrong.

I think you are a very very strong-headed women, which is a great asset, but why not direct this strong-headedness in to something really worthwhile that will benefit you, like a job/career, hobby etc

SisterMonicaJoan Sat 24-Aug-13 22:40:09

Has he met your child op?

You're not going to see sense until he actually takes out the restraining order, are you? And even then you will be whining and wittering how it must be a mistake and he couldn't possibly mean it...

cherrysparkles Sun 25-Aug-13 08:21:14

First of all, I'm not offended by perceived 'rudeness'. Secondly, I run my own business thanks very much, so I don't need career/hobby advice from anyone (or to be patronised).

I'm asking 'but why' because everyone is refusing to ignore MY questions!

Sistermonica yes he has met my child, but as a group of friends, not on his own as my child would be confused. However he knows how difficult it can be at time.

I cope VERY well on my own, I was a single parent even whilst my husband was around as he was a useless feck...my life isn't difficult, I don't break down in tears - over my child, my life, my singleness or the man form this thread. I'm not upset or 'tormented' over this issue, while I'm on here of course I'm thinking about it as I'm typing about it! But the rest of the day; he crosses my mind once or twice some days but most days I don't think about him.

You all think he was never interested in me and was using me...although as I said, what for I don't know; it wasn't sex as we slept together twice in 6 months, if it was company/affection through loneliness then I don't see that as 'using', because I was benefiting from that too.

The assumption that he won't contact me; well we'll see won't we, but what do you class as 'contact'? Does a "how are things" text count?
I don't buy into this very old fashioned idea that women shouldn't initiate contact as it is not seen as attractive. I'm not going to change myself to impress or appease anyone so if I want to text him, I will; whether it's seen as 'attractive' or not!

He has the choice to ignore me just as I have the choice to contact him.
I'm not bothering him twenty five times a day, he asked me a question via text the other day and I didn't reply (we'd been talking and I'd already said I was going to bed before he text again asking something), the one time I went to his house was a couple of months back so all those saying I'm stalking him are mistaken.

Spickle Sun 25-Aug-13 08:47:46

Cherry, I can see you will do whatever you want.

All you wanted from this thread was for someone to say that "yes, a relationship can be rekindled after a split". Yes it can happen. Also, sometimes it doesn't happen.

None of us can predict your circumstances unfortunately. It may work for you and your ex, it may not.

Therefore I have to come to the conclusion that this thread was unnecessary as there is no right or wrong answer.

cherrysparkles Sun 25-Aug-13 09:02:52

Tbh I think most threads on here would fall into that category.

And what I was ACTUALLY asking was can feelings develop between exes way after a split! As in 1 year plus after they have split up, after all feelings have disappeared etc.

Or is it once you've had feelings for someone and they've disappeared completely, you can never regain them.

I'm not saying he definitely had feelings for me or he definitely didn't, was just asking the above question, almost as a hypothetical type of thing.

Spickle Sun 25-Aug-13 09:15:28

Yes, Cherry, feelings can develop way after a split.

It happened to me with my current DP. We had a break because I felt he was getting too serious too quickly. Fast forward another six months and a chance encounter brought us back together again. Been together for 2 years now and are blissfully happy.

However, my previous ex is different. I cannot be "friends" with him and there is no contact.

Hence every situation is different.

Good luck. We are here if you need us.

cherrysparkles Sun 25-Aug-13 09:36:36

No you're not!

If I decide to try and keep in touch with him and it goes wrong then I post on here, you'll be saying you told me so.

But hey.

I'm not saying I'm expecting anything to happen - friendship or otherwise - or that I didn't have my own doubts all the way through (much of what you are all saying, I had in the back of my mind, and said most of it to him too...but he denied it).

And as I said before, I have no feelings whatsoever for my child's father and know I never will again; when I see him and he tries to spend time with me, I feel uncomfortable - maybe this man feels the same about me or will in the future.

I'm not totally deluded you know; I was just trying to look on the bright side a bit and try to keep things open for now.

Thanks anyway smile

Spickle Sun 25-Aug-13 10:40:12

We are here if you need us. Yes, you will probably be told that we told you so. I was told that too. No doubt many other posters have been told. We were trying to help you avoid that, but in the end you have to have these experiences to learn from them. But, there will be good advice and empathy from those who have been there and done that.

I do think a complete break may help both of you decide what his/your feelings are and if you are meant to be together, you will find each other again. He may realise how much he misses you but he won't miss you if you still meet up for coffee once in a while as "friends". Sometimes it takes a complete break to resolve the issues. The risk, of course, is that he (or you!) may move on to pastures new and you can't make someone change their mind just because one of you has.

I hope things work out for you and I am sorry that my posts and other posts have been hurtful. I certainly didn't intend to upset you. You have indicated that you have taken some of the advice on board so that's positive.

beaglesaresweet Sun 25-Aug-13 13:27:04

agree with Spickle, that when rekindling does happen, it happens after a proper no-contact break, no guarantees obviusly but it's the only way it does happen, from what I''ve seen. Otherwise some exes do drift into friends but it's never proper friendships, which is often fine by them. This is more likely with those who were FWB, not emotional like you (and yes. you both were). Most likely those intentions to be friends will just peter out as it's a 'neither here nor there' type of scenario, and people find other priorities soon.

It's unfiotunate that you live in a small village where you can't avoid him. You can give it a go with friemndly random texts and chats as he suggested, but somehow I don't think you can caarry this off happily, after all this intensity you had with him - and still hjave on this thread. I've bee nthere, OP, you think you aer not obsessed but everything points to that fact, I know from my past that I didn't recognise just how obsessed I was even though eberyone was telling me.

I think you will actually be MUCH happier if you go cold turkey. Be friends with others. If it's really meant to be, he'll find you but withot all this agonising over decisions, this time!

cherrysparkles Sun 25-Aug-13 13:45:11

Well I truly can't avoid him. Not in a seeing him around kind of sense, but I can stop texting and not ask/allow him to come round - but if he knows he will always see me in the village (whenever we're both out at the same time we'll bump into each other, it's THAT small!) then he wouldn't miss me anyway would he (if he was ever going to). So just thought I may as well try and be friends with him.

The more I think about it, the more I think it might just be as I said earlier (and as he has been 'accusing' me of all along); and that is 'opposites'.

I know during the times he's said he was keeping an open mind about everything I wasn't fussed about contacting him, and the times he's cut me out like this I'm upset about it.

That also reminded me of an admission I made to him not so long ago; that on the days he was due to come over (post break-up) I was looking forward to it all week and then an hour or so before he was due to get here I started feeling like I couldn't be bothered or almost dreading him turning up; then as soon as I got his text to say he was on his way, I'd really want to reply and tell him not to bother.
It was weird that i reacted that way, and when I told him about it he just used that to illustrate his point that I just want the opposite of what he wants.

So yes, maybe it will peter out from my point of view - even if we carry on seeing each other.

beaglesaresweet Sun 25-Aug-13 14:14:17

well when you bump into him, you could still avoid him kind of , by saying you are in a rush and just saying hello. He can still miss you in the sense of full contact and spendig time with you - actually just seeing you is not a bad thing.
But if you really CAN'T stop texting or saying no to him coming over, that's not good, even friends manage to say 'no'. Why can't you stop texting? that's a proper attachment/co-dependent thing then. Do you have female friends? I'd switch to those friendships for now until you CAN at least control the urge to text, only then consider light friendship, if you must. Try some physical activity that's draining - I know it sounds simplistic but it really helps with obsessive behaviour by just letting you get out of your head processes for a while..

cherrysparkles Sun 25-Aug-13 14:24:15

I didn't say I couldn't stop texting him...I said I CAN smile

Some will call it manipulative, and I guess it is in a way; but as we've had so much bad feeling/negative experiences between us over the past 6 months, I just wanted to see him once or twice to talk 'normally' (nothing about us, just friendly, light general chat and banter, which is something we've rarely done in the past 6 months since we split) and then cut it right back and give us both some space.
We are both at a friend's wedding in December anyway so I will see him then; if he'd had some nice positive experiences with me before then, followed by a couple of month's no contact then maybe it will either give him more of a chance of missing me, or I will feel better after 'redeeming myself' with the positivity and then starting the process of moving on through the no contact.

Wow that was quite garbled but hopefully you get what I mean.

Dumbledorable Sun 25-Aug-13 15:28:46

Start the no contact now, don't try and redeem yourself, just stop contacting him, politely say hello in the village and carry on walking. You are going to drive yourself mad at this rate!

I feel for you, most of us have been here. I spent 5 months texting a man that was too cowardly polite to tell me to bugger off and I needed him to, because my giant ego didn't understand that he was no longer into me! As soon as I caught on, I stopped contacting him - still cringe every time I see him though confused

Your ex sounds like an arse, all this "woe is me, I'm soooo confused" crap is deeply unattractive and one massive head fuck. This man is no friend - friends don't fuck with each others heads.

EaudeChl0e Sun 25-Aug-13 18:05:42

So, does his opinion of you leave you feeling wounded so to speak, and in a position where the only way to repair that wound is to regain his approval? you need his good opinion of you not because you want a relationship but because you can't bear for him to think badly of you?

Remember that old saying "what you think of me is none of my business". You have to believe that. And your sense of your self needs to be independent from how others perceive you. Others actually do have a right to perceive you how they wish, but if your self-esteem is healthy and you have a strong sense of your self, you can shrug over losing the good opinion of one person especially when you can identify why you might have lost it.

apologies if I'm quite obviously coughing up my own psychotherapy on to the table here, but, it was all quite useful to me. if i'm barking up the wrong tree totally forgive me.

EaudeChl0e Sun 25-Aug-13 18:08:28

ps, agreeing with pp there. Don't try and go back in time to fix his opinion of you. Be strong enough in yourself that you can live with it. YOu don't need his approval. And his perception of you is his business and is not linked to you. So, don't let it "deflate" you. Can't think of a better word. What he thinks of you is his business. Not yours. You are out dating again now! I admire you for that. That is pro-active. You are certainly no coward when it comes to getting out there dating.

cherrysparkles Sun 25-Aug-13 20:22:14

Hmm, yes you're right Chl0e.

It's not restricted to him; my child's father was violent towards me and when he ended it, I still felt like I needed to prove to him I was a decent person.

Not only men...there are many many people in my life that I want to 'prove' myself too, I can see they're not very nice people but I still want to gain their approval.

Probably some deep rooted reason for it smile

EaudeChl0e Sun 25-Aug-13 20:51:58

Who do you need to prove that you're nice to? to the man who was aggressive to you when you left him? He's not worth it. I left an abusive relationship. I wasted a long time trying to get his approval for having left him. I was crazy. Because he knew that 'being nice' was central to my identity so he could really manipulate me by accusing me of being a cold hearted bitch etc...

So, I know exactly what you mean by feeling that need to prove yourself, and that uncomfortable feeling when other people don't perceive you how you want them to perceive you..... It's impossible to just shrug over it when you're in that mind set. I had psychotherapy to get past this!!!! So I'm not typing it like a trite little platitude here thinking it's easy.

Years ago, before the abusive x (lucky me huh, all these fabulous exes) I had a bf who was nice while I was with him but then he dumped me with a ridiculous character assassination. At the time though, it hurt me so badly. I felt I had to prove him wrong, prove our mutual acquaintances wrong. I didn't stop to attach any value to what I thought. Rationally I thought he was just facilitating a dump with moral high ground, but I didn't place any value in my OWN take on his dumping me. I needed to control what other people were thinking about me, because what I thought about me seemed to have so little value.

I felt that I could only be redefined (as something good) if I proved to him and to mutual acquaintances that what he'd said about me was wrong. NOW I just think back and realise he was deluding himself about being a fine caring decent character ykwim? he was capable of such cruelty but because he put all my flaws out there at the time he believed he had the moral highground dumping me.

EaudeChl0e Sun 25-Aug-13 20:56:33

ps, i'm going to sound so LA here, but another good thing that came in to sharp focus for me at psychotherapy was that ability to draw a really precise line between what I wanted and what other people wanted me to want. Before, if I was thinking of buying something and my mum wrinkled her nose up at it, I wouldn't know if I'd allwed her to talk me out of buying it, or if I was buying it to annoy her and assert myself, or buying it to prove to HER that I make my own decisions. Now I know I make my own decisions.

It all sounds so obvious but you don't need to prove yourself to anybody. YOu don't need the good opinion of some ship that passed you in the night, ykwim?

cherrysparkles Mon 26-Aug-13 10:29:43

Yes I do understand and it makes perfect sense (and strikes a few chords).

All the way through this thread, I've been kind of agreeing with everything that people have said; yes I acted crazy and irrationally, yes I was a rebound whether he knew it or not, yes he never really cared enough as a friend or anything else...and although I'd been thinking that in the back of my mind all along, having people confirm my suspicions wasn't nice as deep down, I wanted to be wrong.
Because I know, that right back at the start when I had doubts about his feelings towards me or the first time he asked me to give him "space", I should've retained my dignity and walked away.

As it is, we spoke today and he's refusing to come over on Thursday, because "I was planning to come and see you on thurs, all the way through this 2 weeks away I said I'd see you when I got back but you just couldn't wait until Thursday could you? You had to nag at me now and it's all ruined".
This was in response to me phoning (but he had agreed I could), him saying he's been frantically grasping at affection for years as that's what he never got from his ex wife, and has now realised he needs to be truly alone to sort himself out, me admitting that I was confused and hurt by how coldly he can treat me now, after only 2 weeks ago still saying he had feelings for me and wanting to see me; and then he accused me of nagging and ruining any chance of him coming over on Thursday.

If I was him, I'd have cared enough to stick to coming over anyway to talk, but maybe he now has your way of thinking Chl0e and just wants to please himself; or more likely he just doesn't care enough. I think it was cruel to say I'd ruined the chance of him coming over, felt kind of like him dangling a carrot then snatching it away, but hey.

I slept with my ex the other day...my child's father, the one that has been violent in the past. I hadn't had a response from this guy over a text I'd sent, so I texted my ex and asked if he wanted to meet me for a meal as I was hungry and didn't want to sit on my own (my child was with grandparents for the night).
He agreed, we had a meal and a drink and then we went back to mine to have sex - yes it was that calculated, he couldn't believe his luck and we had the type of sex that this guy could never do (he's more 'loving and slow' in bed), I was totally taking control, confident, pretty much completely different to how I have been in bed with this guy (as he always wanted to please me and look at me, tell me I was gorgeous etc and it actually made me feel more self conscious), my ex tried to kiss me but I kept avoiding it, he told me he loved me (just words, he's just rowing with his partner) and I shipped him off subtley once I'd...you know sad

How messed up does that make me? sad

Chl0e Mon 26-Aug-13 15:22:41

You're not messed up, sad this is a straightforward case of Low self-esteem. I had it for years and I made some really bad decisions until I got a different perspective on it all. It's hard to pass on to somebody else, but one day I just started to value myself.

Glad to read that you are newly aware now of how he is pleasing himself here! wine Brilliant. That's the first step. Realisation. Seeing it. SEEING what is before you.

I reckon you knew before but the awareness was buried. Now it's been put to the forefront you can't help but see that he wants you there for when he wants affection or company or sex, but it's all on his terms.

And there's no subtlety about it either! In fact he feels comfortable being very sharp with you if you ring him. confused So he can initiate contact - but by being snippy with you or mocking you - he is creating a dynamic where he can contact you whenever he fancies it!

That is so unequal. I'm sure he sees that. What sort of man is comfortable with an arrangement that 100% suits him at the expense of somebody else's well being!? Not a decent man. Maybe he's confused. Maybe he's Taurus, Maybe he's bald. Who cares, the only point is that the arrangement is not good for you. Stop analysing him and start analysing yourself. Seriously smile A little bit of well-timed navel-gazing is not self-indulgent. It's what you deserve. Give yourself as much thought as you've wasted on this guy.

And wrt your child's father, Please don't sleep with a man who has been abusive to you in the past. How can you nurture your self-esteem if you are so lonely that you will reach out to a man who has hurt you. Nobody who has hurt you in the past deserves your company. How can you love yourself if you sleep with assaulted you. What message are you internalising there every time you sleep with a man who has hurt you? You are sending a message to your psyche every time you do that, and it's not a message that is going to stand you in good stead, ykwim.

I think I remember back to when this stuff was just words to me. Even before psychotherapy though, I knew I would never let a man treat me badly again.

It's facebook wisdom here, but I read this yesterday and clicked like!! "what you tolerate is what will continue".

I have just ordered a book off amazon. Somebody on here recommended it to me. It's by Anne Dixon. It's about assertiveness, but I liked the fact that it's not just teaching you what to say, how far to 'push it'. It's about raising your own sense of self worth, and when you have that you will obviously expect more for yourself.

there's another book by sherry argov that I found useful. It's called holding your own in a relationship 'Bitches'. don't let that title put you off. It stands for something. I have only been in one relationship since I read that book but it helped me a lot. My bar was higher. And I was treated well.

I'm still waiting for the Anne Dixon one to arrive! I think it's a good one. It gets very good reviews. Maybe somebody else on mn could recommend a really good book about self-esteem!? I'd read it. I'm a work in progress myself. But I'm a lot happier and more confident than I was ten years ago.

cherrysparkles Mon 26-Aug-13 15:38:22

Haha no Chl0e, you're the only one on the thread now ;) You can stop replying now and let it die, it's fine.

I think it's maybe more self respect than self esteem...not sure though.

The frustrating thing is, when I was 19 I got into Wicca and was big into the spiritual side of things, working on 'helping' my inner child, meditation and all that; I'm still spiritual and I can share those facebook quotes you mention all day long - but never seem to apply any of it to myself any more.

About the guy I started the thread about - I really did see it before I even posted the thread. As I said earlier, I knew all along I was the rebound woman, and he's been chucking out these "it's all about me" hints for months.

And you know his latest weird ass comment? Not that it matters but I'll mention it anyway as it's cathartic - I asked about the time I mentioned up-thread (I'd gone to his house, he'd let me in and told me to sit down then ignored me for 30 mins while staring at the floor and then suddenly lay down and pulled me on top of him, only to put his hands just on the waistband of my jeans and stayed there like that for ages, not saying a word or doing anything).

His reply when I asked why he'd done that?

"you wind me up so much that I feel like I want to hit you. But I'm not that sort of person".
So, I asked if he'd pulled me on top of him as an alternative outlet to hitting me and he said yes.

That is beyond bizarre to me...why the heck would someone want to 'cuddle' or be close to someone they want to hit!?

He also reckons he tried to kiss me after he pulled me down onto him but I turned my head away "which gave me a flash back to my ex wife, as just before I left her, I tried to kiss her and she turned her head in almost exactly the same way".

That isn't me analysing, just realising how bloody weird some of his actions have been.

cherrysparkles Mon 26-Aug-13 15:39:51

Oh and thanks for the book recommendations, will look into them.

And get back into the meditation/inner child work.
The inner child worksheet was given to me by my counsellor and it seemed to work before, so will again smile

Chl0e2 Mon 26-Aug-13 19:03:57

Blimey. He is abusive. You make him want to hit you confused but he's not that type of guy? Run.for.the.hills.

I don't mind being the thread-killer! wink

cherrysparkles Mon 26-Aug-13 19:23:20

No, it's just there's nothing else to say is there really smile

I know - should have seen him for what he is (possibly) when we were in bed one time, he started rolling around the bed like he was in pain (literally rolling and going "argh" and holding his head in his hands...he said that reaction was because he was 'confused about his feelings'), then he kind of laid on top of me, gently held my face in his hands and said "I feel like I want to hit you, and want to hold you all at the same time".

There have also been times...the time I went to his house in fact, was one of them - where he said "do you want me to just have sex with you? Do you want me to rape you?! would that make you happy!" He wasn't saying it in a threatening way, more of a frustrated "what the hell do you want form me" kind of way - but that was a massive red flag at the time that I ignored...I mean really, who uses the R word towards a woman, even to illustrate...whatever point he felt was making at the time.

Ugh, so that's two 'abusive' men in a row. Maybe it's me.

beaglesaresweet Mon 26-Aug-13 19:24:31

God, he really is completely screwed=up and indeed now looks verging on EA, all this rubbish about comparing your head movement to his ex angry
But OP, why the heck didi you sleep with the ex? if you want a shag, it's quite easy, just meet someone in the pub or go online and choose someone after establishing he's sane. Do NOT sleep with ex again, it's almost like you are punishing yourself for failure with the thread guy. Or, even better, take up some gym/jogging/swimming activity to release the stress instead of sex. Purely as your choices atm are not to be trusted.

beaglesaresweet Mon 26-Aug-13 19:26:30

oh, some more 'gems' in your last post! he badly needs a psychologist!

cherrysparkles Mon 26-Aug-13 19:36:23

But could I have pushed him to be that way?

I need someone truly objective to tell me honestly - because on this thread you've seen how I act; some people have said I've acted crazy and have come across as "a nutter" - so would 2.5 months of complete torture and harassment from someone (it wasn't as bad as that but maybe he feels that way) make you do and say the things I mentioned in my previous two posts? Would a sane man ever ask whether a woman wants him to rape her? Or that she drives him to the point he wants to hit her but isn't 'that type'?

He does martial arts you see; really into it and is an instructor at a kid's martial arts class. So he should be able to control his temper and thoughts of 'wanting' to hit someone, surely?

So I must have been so bad that I drove him to feel that way?

And I don't know why I slept with the ex; I can live without sex anyway, I had only had a soft drink too so can't even blame alcohol! But won't do it again.

Chl0e2 Mon 26-Aug-13 19:57:34

I wouldn't say there's nothing more to say! we're just getting to the crux of it finally!

It's not that you pushed him away! no, it's that he sensed your low bar and knew you would be a girl who would march to the beat of his drum. You didn't do anything 'wrong' pushing him away.

The bit that you need to analyse grin is why losers and abusers zone in on you. Do you advertise your low self-esteem? I guess you will tolerate a bit of shit at the beginning and then that leads to a bit more shit, and before you know it you have three x boyfriends in a row who are all shit heads, losers and abusers.

You were not bad. You didn't demand enough!!

I am going to link some really interesting articles if I can find them again. They are about needs. If you have been brought up to believe that it is high maintenance to have any needs (reasonable needs, such as the need to be respected, the need to be treated as an equal, the need for affection) then you will sublimate your needs and focus on meeting somebody else's needs instead. If you never ask for anything, then you surround yourself with people who'll do nothing for you. That is the basic gist of the article but it's explained very well. Hang on.

Chl0e2 Mon 26-Aug-13 20:01:45

Read this!

I don't know if you identify with being nice or not. Maybe not. I know I did and it meant that abusing types had a speed dial to manipulate me. Being 'nice' was central to my identity. It felt like all I had, so any insinuation that I was not nice (ie, not meeting somebody else's needs, or briefly prioritising my own) lead to accusations that I was cold or heartless etc.

Being nice does not mean that you have no needs. It is perfectly acceptable to have needs and to be quite upfront about that.

Read this Tell me if it strikes a chord?

cherrysparkles Mon 26-Aug-13 20:16:41

Hmm maybe, Chl0e; in the sense that I actually feel quite uncomfortable with receiving help, I always saw myself as 'independent' but maybe it was actually just that it doesn't feel right to need or accept support.

But I don't really feel like if I refuse or never ask for anything then people will like me better....

Funny how little things pop into your head when you start analysing a situation/relationship.

I know I asked 'thread guy' at one time when we were together, "how do I know you're not just trying to manipulate or control me?" because I had some doubts in the back of my head, he just said "if you think that way of me then you shouldn't want to be with me" and I dropped the subject.

BUT I told him early on that I'd been abused by my father as a child.

He told me that a lot of women had divulged stories of their abuse to him, "they seemed to be able to talk to me, where they hadn't been able before...it's scary how many women have had similar experiences as you".

Sounded great at the time...finally a man who understood and didn't push me for sex when I didn't feel ready etc...now I wonder whether he was seeking 'vulnerable' women out.

I'm going to stop thinking about this now, I'm just relating it all to him and freaking myself out.

But do get your point Chl0e and I'll look into trying to sort my self esteem out smile

Chl0e2 Mon 26-Aug-13 20:28:18

I know but these things that I feel uncomfortable letting other people do for me (female friends for example) I would do it for them!! So it is not a friendship-killer thing to ask of somebody.

You were abused by your father? Oh chicken you poor thing. wine I don't know what to say. It's no wonder you don't value yourself like you should. Did this guy encourage you to talk to somebody ?

You don't have to fear men who push you to have sex before you're ready because it is your absolute prerogative to say no to sex if that's not what you want. You don't need to accept a sexual relationship if the 'terms' of the relationship aren't to your liking you know what I mean? You have control over who you sleep with! so nobody who pressures you to have sex with them when they have done nothing to earn your respect or trust or affection is ever going to be a 'prospect' for the new you.

I don't mean to sound patronising by the way. I have rebuilt myself Jamie somers style over the last ten years. I was a wreck 6 years ago. I'd just got out of a 7 year relationship wth an abusive man.

I've only had one relationship since my children's father. And this stuff works, this navel-gazing, self-esteem building focus works because the guy was so respectful to me. At the beginning it felt odd, like more (?) intrusive to have somebody be so nice to me. But I made myself ride that out and I did 're-calibrate' something in me I think. I didn't love that guy. He was too quiet. But he was never anything less than considerate to me so it is worth 'working on yourself'. work on yourself cos you're worth it'!

cherrysparkles Wed 04-Sep-13 14:45:59

Well flame me for this but I went to see him last Tuesday - I'm very impulsive so it was totally spur of the moment but I feel it helped me - I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote in a message to my friend to explain what happened, save retyping it all - so sorry it's a bit jumbled and badly formatted but:

I went to see him last Tuesday afternoon. Totally spur of the moment.

He said he had a migraine when I got there, and after a few minutes talking, he walked off to his bedroom and I followed, saying that I wasn't going to allow doors to be shut on me while I was talking, he told me he wasn't going to shut his door - but by then I was in his bedroom, and he had lay on the bed covering his eyes with a pillow.
I told him that I was confused how he's been doing his over dramatic "I don't know how I feel but why can't I keep away from you" routine for the past 4 months solid, and he snapped back "well I've been trying to get rid of you for the past 3 months, haven't I".

He then pulled me down on top of him, and pushed my head down onto his shoulder (firmly but not roughly), then just wrapped his arms tightly round my back. I tried getting up a few times and he gently pushed my head back down (I could have got up if I'd wanted to, really), and every time I started to apologise saying that I know I've been a bit much lately, especially with turning up at his home unannounced, he smiled and said "no you're not sorry, you love messing with my head" and then tried to kiss me. Every time I turned my head away, and then he said "you never seem to like me touching you or kissing you, do you?".

That carried on for a while, at one point he said he thinks he really did love me at one point, I responded "yes, for two whole weeks" (which is really all the time we actually tried for a relationship proper; before that it was casual dating) and he said "no, longer than that. And I'm shooting myself in the foot here now because it will probably be used against me until kingdom come, but I'm not sure whether in fact I STILL love you".
A little later on he undid my bra and then took my top off (he whipped it off quite quickly before I had chance to react, lol) - this was just after he had said he had felt guilty every time we slept together, as he can't handle a relationship and wants to be on his own, so I said "you feel guilty but now you're going to try anyway?!" in quite a snappy way and he said no, then gave me my top back and apologised.
I then stood up (quite cross by now) and said "do you really think I'm sitting here thinking you're going to turn round one day and say you're madly in love with me and always have been?! I'm not that deluded you know!" (and I meant it - I know I was always just a rebound) and he sat up and snapped back "I don't know whether I'm STILL in love with you!".

We then got onto the subject of him needing to be alone and why he feels that way, he said "I need to be on my own, until I'm happy on my own again.

He then suddenly came out with "I like you a lot, if I felt ready to be in a relationship, I'd really want to give it a good go with you. You have made me feel so many feelings I've never felt with anyone else before - wound me up so much, I've never sworn so much in my entire life, but at the same time the positives feel like ecstasy and they feel like love. But, I don't know what love is...I can't handle feelings, okay?!"

After that, I didn't contact him for a week, until yesterday when I asked him to meet me at lunch for a few minutes.
He told me that the part he had said about not being sure if he might still be in love with me was wrong of him, as he'd been thinking about it after I'd left and thought I was right; he wasn't feeling 'love' last Tues so shouldn't have used those words - but when I asked why he HAD used those words (as he's a grown man and should know what love feels like imo!) he said he didn't know, it's just how he felt at the time.

He then said "I like you, I'm very very attracted to you and I can't cope with it...I'm fucked. My entire life in general is messed up. I don't want to take you out, so I shouldn't sleep with you. But whenever I see you all I want to do is hold and kiss you".

I told him he shouldn't beat himself up about not having enough feelings for me or whatever, because really all we had was a short few weeks where he felt that he loved me. He then went "but then what was all the other stuff?"

I don't get what he meant by that, or why he didn't just stay silent as usual - why counter what I had said?

As it stands, he's coming round tomorrow evening to give me some answers as to why he said that stuff last Tuesday - I need to know, if he only said it too get me into bed or because he's a manipulative sod then he needs to man up and tell me.

Sorry this is epically long but is this just another example of 'mind games', does he want rid totally or could he still be genuinely confused?

RabbitIssue Wed 04-Sep-13 16:21:16

But it doesn't matter what he wants, fuck what he wants, it's about what you want, which is not some tosser giving you the crumbs from his table.

I feel for you I really do, but he's playing you. Seriously, just stop contacting him, it's always you that texts, phones, goes round there. You're basically stalking him. Even if he did originally like you he wouldn't like the way you've been acting surely!!

Get Some Fucking Therapy Woman

You went to his house without being invited after he said he wanted space
You followed him into his bedroom when he had a migraine
You harangued him and forced a conversation about feelings
You ignored the fact that he told you to leave
You allowed him to take your top and bra off in a weirdly passive way

You need help. Seriously. Leave him alone. I'm not saying he sounds like a nice man (he doesn't) but your constant harassment of him is distressing to read about.

You're a pair of prize arseholes who deserve each other.

DaisyBD Wed 04-Sep-13 17:10:43

Please, go and find a therapist. You sound completely mad, and about 12. You're both nuts. Were you abused as a child? I don't mean to sound dismissive, I was too, and I was like you when I was a teenager, completely off my head and with no boundaries whatsover. Please please please get some proper help.

cherrysparkles Wed 04-Sep-13 17:14:21

Erm, no.

I'm fairly sure form the way he was lifting me around on the bed that he didn't have a migraine.
He didn't tell me to leave (where did I say that??) and I DID NOT force a conversation about feelings!

All I said the entire way through, was apologise and he kept saying the other stuff! Not like I went in asking what he thought of me!

The 'love' thing was me saying that I WASN'T expecting him to turn around and say he loved me, I wanted him to agree but instead he told me the exact opposite!

So I'm not looking for a critique of my behaviour - I'm asking why he said the things he did the other day and yesterday!

And why agree to come over? I've moved house - twice I was talking about how silly this all is and starting to walk away, and twice he said "tell me where you are, I'll come and see you on Thursday".

Loopytiles Wed 04-Sep-13 17:24:14

Do you enjoy all this angst?!

Why do this? There are plenty of nice, straightforward blokes out there.

Loopytiles Wed 04-Sep-13 17:29:20

I'm very sorry for that comment, and hadn't properly reax thread.

But this man is not someone who is good for you, keep away!

Who gives a flying fuck why he said what he said? Nobody on this thread because we've all spelled it out to you completely clearly.
He's a headfuck
You're a headfuck
You need some therapy and boundaries
End of

"So I'm not looking for a critique of my behaviour - I'm asking why he said the things he did the other day and yesterday!"

But you need to look at your own behaviour and stop trying to analyse his. Because you're not good together. This is way too much drama and neediness.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 10:41:18

Right, well he came over last night and it went wrong again.

In the space of an hour, he said:

"I'm not particularly turned on by you any more, but I could be if I let myself...when I first saw you this evening I thought wow, as you looked amazing - but I'm not going to act on it."

"I don't want to be in this social situation...with anyone. I don't want a relationship, I just can't be bothered - when I was on my way back from my trip last week (which was the same day I'd gone to see him at his house), this woman was walking along the towpath and offered to help while I went through the lock (he was on a canal boat).
We were chatting, she was the right age, blonde, slim, everything I would look for in a woman, said she'd just moved onto a boat on her own and I said I was moored up at (where he lives), she told me she was just going for a coffee in town but I left it at that. I just wasn't interested in getting her number or anything." I can't be bothered!

"I like you. I'm attracted to you. I care about you. I have very mixed feelings about you. But I don't want a relationship, I need to be on my own and sort myself out".

He brought up his ex wife too, how he wasn't sure he was totally over her (despite relationships since then) and I said he'd told me she'd cheated on him. He said "she did - but you did too! You told me the other week you'd slept with your ex. Why would you do that and why tell me about it?!"
I told him we weren't together at the time as this was only 2 weeks ago and he said "but why did you tell me? Were you trying to make me jealous, control me? You keep saying you love and want me but then you slept with your ex. You're the only woman I've been with in a year and that means something to me. What if I'd come round and told you I loved you, then left yours and went straight to my ex's for a coffee and we ended up having sex, then I came back and told you about it; how would you feel?"
i said I'd be heartbroken tbh and he muttered "yeah well you never say that do you?". I then asked if he'd been bothered when I told him, and he said "No! You went and moved on and slept with your ex, good...go for it. Leave me alone!".

He started pacing round the room again then looking really distressed, and it scared me. He was running his hands through his hair over and over again in a kind of obsessive way, pacing around and then walked out, I followed behind to shut the gate after him and asked him to stop and let me say one last thing, he did and then suddenly grabbed me and pulled me into a bear hug type thing, pressing his crotch against me :/ Then he let go, went "argh" and started kicking the wall about 4 repeatedly! It was really scary!
I asked why he'd pulled me towards him like that and he said "because affection, sex...it's what I crave" or something along those lines (can't remember exact words) and then walked off.

I did message him last night apologising and asking why we can't just start from scratch as friends and see how things go, he said "no because I DON'T WANT TO BE WITH ANYONE". You said yourself I need to heal so please, please, please allow me that time to heal and leave me alone".

So - I get it. He needs space.

BUT what I don't get - and need an answer or a guess to - is why he reacted the way he did last night.
What was with the pacing, wall kicking, random crotch pressing and stuff, was it all just the fight of flight adrenaline thing or more that he's confused about his feelings still (he did say he was confused about everything, stressed at work etc) and WHY did he say last Tuesday morning he had no feelings at all for me, in the afternoon when I went to see him say that he thought he might still be in love with me, this Tuesday lunchtime he said he was confused and didn't know what he wanted and then last night...well all that?

I know what you all think but just want a guess solely about why he's acting that way/saying such conflicting and confusing things?

Either way, he's getting his 'space' and I need it for myself anyway.
But can someone hazard a guess?

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 11:02:59

Fucking hell I've never, in all the time i've been on MN, read such a crazy thread!

Seriously OP, you need some help.

Despite red flags all over this guy, it seems as though you are trying to push him into doing something abusive to you.

Do you want him to get aggressive with you? Would it make you feel loved by him?

You are confusing passion with something else entirely, and it's fucking frightening the way you think.

You keep manipulating him into coming to talk to you, when you should be running in the opposite direction.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 11:11:21

What would you do if he said 'ok I love you and want a committed relationship with you?

That's what you want isn't it? Otherwise you wouldn't keep harassing him or getting him to talk to you. You don't want just a friendship, that much is obvious. You are deluded if you really think you can start from scratch and be friends with him after all this.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 11:22:23

No I'm not saying it's passion - all the pacing and hair rubbing is scary, as he 'paces' towards me then turns away at the last minute.

If he said he wanted to be with at this moment in time, I wouldn't do it.

I was genuinely thinking more towards a rough time scale of 6 months before we started 'dating' - if any feelings developed that way. I just wanted to text sometimes and meet up once in a while for an hour or two for a coffee and a chat - as he suggested we do last week - and then if it was to develop into more it could over time. No pressure.

I think the reason I keep pushing it is to get one piece of positivity 'in person' and give him something to miss, in a way. We never got to know each other well enough, he never saw every part of my personality so all he's really seen is the part that he calls "intense and amazing", and this crappy side. Two extremes.

I wanted him to be able to see the 'stable' side of me (I do have one!) so just thought if we could have one positive, chatty and friendly encounter then I would feel much better about backing off and keeping things light and infrequent.

I know it sounds mad, and I realise that pressuring and harassing someone into a positive encounter will never work. But he won't miss what he's never had.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 11:34:26

I was genuinely thinking more towards a rough time scale of 6 months before we started 'dating' - if any feelings developed that way. I just wanted to text sometimes and meet up once in a while for an hour or two for a coffee and a chat - as he suggested we do last week - and then if it was to develop into more it could over time. No pressure

No pressure? You have got to be kidding me!
You're doing everything but kicking his door in to see/speak/tell you how he feels about you.

I think the reason I keep pushing it is to get one piece of positivity 'in person' and give him something to miss, in a way. We never got to know each other well enough, he never saw every part of my personality so all he's really seen is the part that he calls "intense and amazing", and this crappy side. Two extremes

You sound like a stalker. I think he, as well as us, have seen enough of your personality to know you have an unhealthy way of thinking.

I wanted him to be able to see the 'stable' side of me (I do have one!) so just thought if we could have one positive, chatty and friendly encounter then I would feel much better about backing off and keeping things light and infrequent

Then be stable and back the fuck off! There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, positive, chatty or friendly about your recent encounters. There is nothing light about the situation you and he has created.

I know it sounds mad, and I realise that pressuring and harassing someone into a positive encounter will never work. But he won't miss what he's never had.

No love, he won't miss you. He will be relieved you've left him alone.

givemestrengthorlove Fri 06-Sep-13 11:35:49

He is shouting from the rooftops he does not want to have a relationship of any sort with you . Not lovers not friends not fwb not acquaintances.

But because you are haranguing him and obsessed with him and he is unhappy he is conflicted when you keep approaching him and following him round...every time he says no you keep on at him until he is getting distressed. You are bullying him

I feel sorry for him....you are driving him crazy and sound crazy yourself!

LEAVE HIM ALONE AND BUILD UP YOUR SELF RELIANCE AND OWN HAPPINESS

Your behaviour towards this man is becoming more and more abusive. The reason he is behaving 'strangely' is because you are driving him mad. You pester him with texts and phone calls, you turn up at his house uninvited and refuse to leave, you follow him from room to room despite him begging you to leave him alone... OK, he's not the most stable or sensible person, because a mentally healthy person would already have reported you to the police for harassment and refused any further contact from you (ie ignored texts, emails and phone calls and refused to let you in when you turned up at the house) but I think he's scared and trying to work out ways of appeasing you and making you back off; he's probably reluctant to go public about the fact that this crazy cunt is stalking and abusing him because he thinks people will laugh at him.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 11:47:11

I'm sorry but SGB - That last line of your post just made me choke on my sandwich grin

givemestrengthorlove Fri 06-Sep-13 11:47:17

It's too late for anything now... No positive encounters can undo the way you've behaved. And the reason you've behaved like this is because ou know he isn't interested but want to force him into it.
Give it up there's no hope to put things on a relaxed footing ever again.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 11:51:30

Ok fine - but this bit: "you turn up at his house uninvited and refuse to leave" isn't true!

I turned up at his house uninvited, yes. But why the fuck if I followed him into his bedroom, would he have grabbed my waist and pulled me on top of him, then laughed when I said I was sorry for all this crap and said "no you're not, you love to mess with my head" and smiled then kissed me?
Didn't seem as though he was bothered or upset about me being there!

I also said after he pulled me down onto him, that I had to go soon to an appointment. I lifted my head up off his shoulder as I said it, and he said "no, you're staying here" and pushed my head firmly back down again then stayed like that for a while longer.
Anytime I sat up he pulled me back down and tried to kiss me a few times - how are those the reactions of a scared man that doesn't want me there?

After I called my taxi to get home he walked me out and kissed me twice then too - we were walking up to wait for the taxi and those 2 time she went "oh girl what are you like" and kissed me!

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 11:56:16

Ok OP.

You are hell bent on following this through, despite some bloody good advice IMO.

Go ahead. Keep seeing/stalking him.

Just don't be surprised when he gets a restraining order on you.

Foolish woman!

Good luck!

<<slams door on thread>>

givemestrengthorlove Fri 06-Sep-13 11:56:19

Look this is crazy
He didn't invite you
Tell him, you know I am in love with you I am not contacting you again or calling you again.

Forever

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 11:59:31

Can someone answer my last question then?

I didn't say he invited me, I said once I was there he was relaxed, joking and messing around - he even ruffled my hair up at one point when I said jokingly that all this pulling me round the bed was meaning I'd look a state going home, kissing me and saying he thought he might still love me! This was LAST TUESDAY!

So why did he do all that if he was scared/wanting me to leave? Why'd he keep pulling me down onto him (and I mean repeatedly, everytime I tried to get up!)

givemestrengthorlove Fri 06-Sep-13 12:05:09

It doesn't matter..people kiss people in the moment and say things but he is telling you loud and clear he isn't into you.

Because he's a head fuck

End of story

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 12:10:18

But he also told me he's got mixed feelings about me and is confused - how do you know he's not feeling something but scared of getting into a relationship (he's a bit of a committment-phobe it seems anyway) or having to face people?

And there are reasons that the latter could apply...

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 12:10:38

I said I was leaving this thread but...

OP, are you fucking with us?

Is this a wind up or are you genuinely this nuts?

You're a dickhead
He's a dickhead
Hth

because I DON'T WANT TO BE WITH ANYONE". You said yourself I need to heal so please, please, please allow me that time to heal and leave me alone

His words

You loon

Floggingmolly Fri 06-Sep-13 12:18:50

So what if it means he "does genuinely want to be friends"?
He doesn't want a relationship with you.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 12:31:24

Ok.

He was the one that keeps saying he's confused about what he wants!

SisterMonicaJoan Fri 06-Sep-13 13:15:54

Look, lets not pretend that this isn't Janny man anymore.

This has been going on for months and your children are in the middle of all this, seeing this, hearing this then having to see this man at their school. You are fucking up your children.

You are obsessing over this man, analysising every single comment, look, action. Stop clinging onto the stuff which leads you to think he cares or could care about you. HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE WITH YOU. If he did, he would be - it wouldn't be complicated.

You cannot be friends with this man. Neither of you are capable of being able to pop for coffee and chit-chat so lets not pretend that you can have this sort of relationship. Although you say you want this, you then follow with "maybe in 6 months we can try again".

He is not a good man, I think he is being abusive actually, don't you want more for yourself? Don't you wasnt someone who doesn't make you second guess what they are thinking, you is honest about what they want? I think the only way for you to get this type of relationship is to admit that you need help. You previously said you were going to your GP, did you do this? What happened?

Seriously OP, please stop this. You obviously have a lot of issues (you did explain where this stemmed from on a previous post but I won't mention it here) but this man is not healthy for you and won't be the one to help you fix yourself.

I am genuinely worried for you OP (especially for your children too).

Walkacrossthesand Fri 06-Sep-13 13:21:52

LEAVE.HIM.ALONE.

That is all.

TheSecondComing Fri 06-Sep-13 13:26:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 13:34:27

My CHILD is fine thank you. He has cerebral palsy and is my uppermost priority so I'd thank you not to cast doubt on the quality of my child's care!

When I went to this man's house, my child was at respite. Before anyone jumps on me for that. My child has never met this man so I'm not sure what you are referring to?

SisterMonicaJoan Fri 06-Sep-13 13:36:42

I'm pretty sure it is TSC with just a few details changed (only has one child, they are similar ages...). Everything else is just too similar imo

Floggingmolly Fri 06-Sep-13 13:37:16

It's Janitor woman???? Dear God, op, you need serious therapy sad

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 13:39:09

I was actually just hoping and trying to see the good in him, when he had been badly hurt and cheated on within our village by his ex wife, he's had a serious of short relationships since then and this was all publicly scrutinised as that's what it's like here. So it made sense that he was being cautious.

Ok so I get it, the confusion is more than likely actually as someone up thread said; and he doesn't know what to say to get rid of me, but if that's the case why doesn't he just stop replying?

I just thought it was maybe not feeling ready to be in a relationship, coupled with doubts over whether we could work, as there is a lot going against us...plus this crappy stuff I've been putting him through.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 13:39:53

SMJ who are similar ages?

SisterMonicaJoan Fri 06-Sep-13 13:40:28

I didn't mean to sound like I was casting doubt on the quality of your day-to-day care of your child OP.

Just that your child will pick up on your being distressed or upset even if they are not around when this man is there.

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Fri 06-Sep-13 13:40:45

Do you want to be with someone who could chop and change whether they want to be with your or not at his own whim?

Even if he is being genuine, what's to say his opinion couldn't change again in 6 months time. It's not fair on you emotionally to go through this, surely?

Walkacrossthesand Fri 06-Sep-13 13:42:04

I agree, the whole 'gestalt' is the same as the 'other thread' - the endless going over and over interactions, asking us what we think, coming back with 'yes, but...' when advised to let it drop, etc etc. Good luck cherry - I don't think you'll find what you're looking for on MN, but it's not for want of a lot of very patient posters trying.

SisterMonicaJoan Fri 06-Sep-13 13:44:51

SMJ who are similar ages

Early in your op you mention you and this man are similar ages...

You an say he can just stop replying to you if he isn't interested but you have said that you are the first to make contact if you haven't heard from him.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 13:45:40

Day to day I'm not distressed. Contrary to how I may be appearing on this thread SMJ, it doesn't cross my mind in a huge way.

It's difficult to explain; yes it's confusing when he appeared genuinely distressed and said he was confused about his feelings/fucked/needed to be on his own for a while etc., and then when he brought up me sleeping with another ex and seemed jealous or bothered and then said he wasn't; it is all very 'teenage' I admit that. I'm not usually like this, but have been totally taken in by this man, as he seemed so genuine and as I said, says so many different things and seems to veer from one extreme to the other.

I just didn't want to believe he was saying it all to mess with my mind or get rid of me that's all.

AintNobody; yes it could. Which is why I gave 6 months as a rough timeline for when I was going to start seeing if he was interested in going for a drink or something. In the meantime I was going to back right off and just send a text occasionally checking in.

ladyjadie Fri 06-Sep-13 13:47:12

He is a total headfuck.

You sound ripe for your head to be fucked, sorry. You know you have issues. You've mentioned why, and that you are tentatively going about doing something about it.

Make this another thing you are doing something about. Take this into your own hands, tell yourself that you are not going to have anything more to do with this man. You clearly have control issues, so why not help yourself and make this something you can control?

I understand it's hard when it's so obvious he has some sort of hold on you, but seriously, can you not see it's doing you no good? And I do get you wanting to at least have left it on your terms, looking like you're not a psycho in his eyes, but sometimes you just have to draw a line under it, Ok, that guy will never see me in a normal light, move on, let's try to not let this happen with the next guy (and there will be a next guy for you, there are billions of them). Learn from it.

LET GO OF HIM

Fuck waiting until he lets go of you.

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat Fri 06-Sep-13 13:49:16

But the problem is, what if 6 months down the line after that he changes his mind again? He may not, by the way - I think people are too quick to rush to this judgment but this could happen and then you would be left hurt again.

What on earth is this Janny thread all about? Linkage please?

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 13:52:06

SMJ - but imo he didn't have to agree to come over last night, for example. After I went to his place last week and it ended on an unfinished sort of note, he was no doubt expecting me to go over there or contact him on the thursday when he was off work, but I didn't do either - not that I expect praise for that but ykwim.
I've sent him three messages on facebook since last night and he has replied to all three - why not block me if he's so bothered and is too chicken to just not reply?

He would have ways of getting rid of me if he really wanted to; yes he wants to be nice I suppose, but if he keeps saying one thing and then something polar opposite and he feels I'm not taking the hint, why not stick to just saying "leave me alone" rather than all the rest of the stuff?

If I'm so stupid then he should spell it out.

And can someone please answer this one thing - last week when I went to his place, why did he say "I know I'm shooting myself in the foot here but I think I might still be in love with you" and then similar a few minutes later? If he KNEW it was shooting himself in the foot then why carry on to say it!?

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 13:54:24

AintNobody - what did you mean by this?

"I think people are too quick to rush to this judgement"

AuntieStella Fri 06-Sep-13 13:58:09

AintNobodyGotTimeFurThat - have sent you a pm with link to 'janny man' thread.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 14:01:31

And as to your question,the idea was that over the next 6 months I start being the person that I used to be, before all this weirdness happened. A bit more laid back, just checking in every so often and the occasional phonecall as he originally said he wanted, after maybe 6 months see how the land lies, how he's feeling about getting into a relationship (because he says he's 'emotionally fucked') and if he seems receptive, see how he is towards me and maybe ask to meet up and then take things bit by bit from there, never rushing things which is what we did before.

Even if it didn't turn into anything, he'd have at least seen me 'as myself' rather than the person I've been recently. So I'll feel satisfied that at least I had that chance. and hopefully we would remain friends out of it.

That was the idea anyway, and it was kind of what he has hinted at, even last tuesday.

He said the texting is fine, it's only on the odd occasion where I've messaged him and not been sure where we stand with regards to whether he's ignoring me or not so I text him again an hour or so later, and he got annoyed as he'd just been busy and not ignoring me. That's the part that "does his head in" (his words).

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 15:25:54

I think I remember the 'Janny' thread.

OP, is this the second man you've obsessed over/stalked in your children's school?

The other being a teacher who would run from you and made complaints to the head teacher about you?

If it is, then I can sort of understand now why this guy hasn't ignored/reported you for harassment yet.

Could he lose his job if they were to find out he's been shagging the pupils mother?

He's trying to get out of this unscathed. He'd tried to get rid of you but you're just not getting it.

AnneOfGreenGarbles Fri 06-Sep-13 15:36:10

Can someone please link me to this janny thread? I am v confused!

Me too please!

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 15:42:33

Can't link because im on my phone but I just advance searched 'janitor' and there are a few threads in the relationships section, but I think i'm right in guessing these are just the tip of the ice berg!

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Fri 06-Sep-13 15:49:24

You know, if it is you OP, I can definitely answer you 'why is he saying/doing this' questions.

As I said above, if he could face losing his job over this, he's trying anything he can do to get you to leave him alone.

He's tried telling you to leave him alone,. That hasn't worked. You're still contacting him or turning up at his house.

He's tried telling you he had/has feelings for you but is confused so wants space (hoping you would listen and then move on anyway)

He's head fucking you into making the decision yourself.

He's scared of being found out (and having the piss ripped out of him by his work colleagues)

AuntieStella Fri 06-Sep-13 17:25:35

AOGG and SGB: PMs sent

ladyjadie Fri 06-Sep-13 18:06:45

Auntie beat me to it.. but there are at least 3, under varying names..

I remember a song by ForumDonkey being a highlight on one.

AnneOfGreenGarbles Fri 06-Sep-13 18:19:45

Thanks Auntie!

Hmm not sure what else can possibly be said that we haven't already said on this or the previous threads...

Spickle Fri 06-Sep-13 20:24:57

I posted earlier on in this thread and now you ladies are dangling a carrot in front of my eyes - tell me about the janitor, pleeeeeeese!

AuntieStella Fri 06-Sep-13 21:04:24

This poster has denied janitorial angles.

But Spickle I'll PM.

akaWisey Fri 06-Sep-13 21:14:55

I think it's possible that the reason this man is demonstrating conflict over his sexual feelings towards you may be that he is aroused yet repulsed by his attraction to a woman who was abused. It's not unknown and that alone should have you running for the hills.

At the same time you are showing evident signs of very, very unhealthy thought processes such that you cannot see the risks to yourself by behaving in this way. The nature of delusional thinking is such that you will now demand evidence for this in everything you have said thus far. But I'm sorry to say OP everything you have said so far is delusional on your part. Everyone can see it but you.

I have but one suggestion to make. I would strongly urge you to see your GP, tell them what you have told us, do not leave anything out. Show your GP what you have shown posters here. Ask him/her all the questions you have posed here - all of them. Tell it all.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 21:58:23

I have anxiety. It's diagnosed.

cherrysparkles Fri 06-Sep-13 21:59:40

"I think it's possible that the reason this man is demonstrating conflict over his sexual feelings towards you may be that he is aroused yet repulsed by his attraction to a woman who was abused. It's not unknown and that alone should have you running for the hills."

And sorry but where the heck did you get this idea from?!

We spoke about it, he said he's known people who have been through violence in the past and seemed to have no 'repulsion' towards me because of it!

Spickle Fri 06-Sep-13 23:05:10

Many thanks Auntie

Thing is, your past sufferings and present MH issues are not, actually, a free pass to behave badly. Whether or not you have posted similar obsessive rantings about other men in the past, you are stalking and harassing this one and, sooner or later, he is either going to involve the police and the law to keep you away, or he is going to lose his temper and attack you. As he doesn't sound very nice, the latter is possibly more likely. I rather hope he does the former, because if you get arrested for your unreasonable and unethical behaviour, there is a better chance of you being given the psychiatric help you evidently need.

TotallyBursar Sat 07-Sep-13 03:45:23

I think you enjoy playing with fire and the angst and the poor tortured soul posturing.
I think you are so deeply immersed in your own narrative you can't see quite how clearly you are trying to force his hand to the now rather inevitable conclusion. And if you can see it then you're even further down the rabbit hole. Honestly it's like you've been pulled out of a textbook, just a few decades older than most.

You have had hours worth of time and thought from posters here indulging your need, and then accuse them of not answering questions, the answers to which are clearly spelled out. You change tack everytime you are in a position of accepting the bloody obvious.

Nope, you carry on; you can both twitch on the end of each other's string and be oh so romantically Heathcliff about things forevermore. Well, until he gets a better offer of course.
Because you are the one that can't stop jabbing your finger in the wound, he's just your run of the mill abusive type loving playing up to you.

akaWisey Sat 07-Sep-13 07:14:16

Like I said, OP.

It isn't all about you, you, you. My view is about HIM, not you. You keep on and on asking us to tell you what makes this man tick. You can't handle what you hear.

You DO need to see your GP as per my post above.

Off this thread now.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 07:24:18

I told him I would calm it and back off, and I will. He came over last night, I'd asked for 10 minutes but he was a bit late getting here but he was smiling and seem relaxed when he turned up which was a contrast to the previous evening.

We managed an hour of talking about stuff; I'd asked why he said that stuff about possibly still loving me last week, he calmly explained that he felt that way at the time, I interrupted that he's been in love before so isn't stupid, he knows how it feels and he said he didn't; the same "exciting, intense" feelings he has for me, he's had for everyone he's been with in the past - except with me, there's the other side of annoying him so much more than anyone ever has, and causing him to swear more than ever before (my words not his). I said that deeper, loving feelings usually replace the intense ones and he said that's the part he's never had, not even with his ex wife as he married young and just went along with it hoping it would work out.

I did say that he must be scared of me (he interjected with "no I'm not") and scared of being laughed at by everyone in the village if he reported me and they found out he'd been anywhere near me since we split, and he said that wasn't the case. He seemed very convincing, looked me in the eyes when he said it and I had asked for complete honesty for his own sake as well as mine.

He hugged me a couple of times towards the end (normal hug, not a sexual thing) and said he liked me, then at the door he gave me another hug and I said he was clearly pitying me, and I didn't want that - he said "I'm not! I love you..." then trailed off (I guessed the rest of that sentence was going to be "as a friend" but he'd panicked in case I got it the wrong way when he mentioned the L word) so I said "yes I'm lovely, but not lovely enough" and he said "no...I don't know. I'm fucked" and walking to his car.

He also told me he's fine with me texting him to say hello sometimes, all that bothers him is when I text, he doesn't reply quick enough and I text again after an hour or two asking if he's ignoring me.

I really don't think he's abusive, I think he's genuinely confused about everything. He spoke a bit about being stressed and being given too much work in his job too, someone recently left and he's taken on their workload as well, so I think that coupled with the hassle I was laying on, would mash anyone's head up a bit.

I always said I'd back off once I had the chance to speak to him properly, and that's what I'm going to do.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Sat 07-Sep-13 07:54:42

He's repeating himself. The discussion last night is exactly the same as it has been since you split.

He's using the old cliche': 'It's not you, it's me'

To get you off his back.

I think he knows what we all know after your threads. You have some serious issues with relationships/boundaries/behaviour.

He said he doesn't mind you texting him, now & again but not all the time and not to harass him. Which is what you have been doing throughout.

I still stand by what I said up thread btw.

Just a question - why do you think it's ok or appropriate to text someone to ask if they are ignoring you? You're a woman in her 40s not a teenager. Your entire interactions with men are messed up. I wonder if you suffered some trauma in your teens or early twenties that damaged your emotional development, so you are still functioning at that level. I honestly, no bitching, believe you need therapy.

Spickle Sat 07-Sep-13 08:38:11

I really don't think he's abusive, I think he's genuinely confused about everything

You're right, he's not abusive, BUT you are.

Get some help cherry.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 08:42:13

Ehric we covered this earlier in the thread. YES I had 'trauma' in my childhood! YES I have diagnosed Anxiety.

And Hotdog - maybe. Either way I'm not going to badger any more.

I believe he's being genuine and not just trying to get me off his back in the sense that he wants me out of his life for good, but time will tell won't it.

As long as I'm not harassing him, whatever.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 08:58:11

Just to add, I'm NOT ignoring all advice and opinion you know. Well maybe advice, but I am taking on board your opinions.

I already said; all the way through this I've been thinking similar to you all in the back of my mind - but hoping that he wasn't just saying anything to shut me up.

Last night when he came round and I brought up the fact last week he'd said "if I'd felt ready to be in a relationship I'd have wanted to give it a good go with you" and I asked if that was an 'it's not you, it's me' type thing and if it was, he needed to be completely honest with me - as sugaring the pill is getting either of us anywhere. He said "No! it's true because I would - you're lovely!" he said in that way as though he was really trying to make the point - can't think of the proper word for it now.

He ALWAYS has the option at times like that to stay silent - it's been his defence mechanism in the past and I rabbit on at such speed that I don't dwell on what I've asked that's provoked silence; I just carry on with the next question. So he could quite easily have deflected the question by going quiet and waiting for the next question, rather than jumping in an vehemently stating that he DID mean it as I'm "lovely".
He knows I don't take compliments well too, in fact I hate them - so he knows saying I'm nice would rankle me rather than make me feel better or shut me up.

As always, I'm wording this shockingly. But hopefully you get what I am trying to say.

Same as hugging me - I don't ask him to do that, I'm not pressed up against him on the sofa or following behind at close quarters when he's about to leave, he moves TO ME and gives me a hug; and does it rather more quickly than I'm used to, as well. Just kind of grabs and pulls me towards him really fast before I have a chance to react.

It's not me forcing it, his choice to do things like that and if you're right and he is trying to let me down gently, well then A) he's going about it the wrong way, B) there's no need and C) all he has to do from now on is ignore any texts I send from now on.

So we'll see.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Sat 07-Sep-13 09:25:05

Cherry, it doesn't matter if he seems genuine or not.

YOU are not emotionally or mentally stable to have any kind of relationship until you get some kind of help. Your thought patterns and behaviour are signs of that.

I hate it when posters try to diagnose on here, but your rambling posts and discriptions of your behaviour are just like my mothers.

She too has had traumatic experiences in her past. I know of yours from previous threads. They are very similar to hers.

She met a man, like yours a few years back. She was possessive, obsessive, abusive and manipulative. She wanted constant declarations of love, constant talks about the relationship.

He tried to break it off numerous times. But he pitied her. She manipulated him into visiting her, then convinced herself they were back together or there was still a future.

There's so much more to this but I don't want to into too many more details.

When he eventually cut contact (a year after the split) she continued to drive up and down his street, turn up outside his work etc.

He called the police on her in the end.

My mum has a long history of mental health problems and has been hospitalised on 4 occasions.

All of this was her leading into another crisis and she was hospitalised again. It's been 3 years since it happened. She still talks about him all the time but thankfully she has help from her psychiatrist and us, her family.

If you think your behaviour is not going to affect your children, your wrong.

My mum has always been like this. I didn't know it when I was a child, I didn't know any different. But I can tell you now, it's very hard seeing her like this.

You need to leave him alone and get help.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Sat 07-Sep-13 09:36:17

Sorry I was meant to say...

The difference between you and her is that she knows she's ill.

She feels shame and embarrassment after the fact. you don't.

Since this man has been out of her life, she has other obsessions. This has always been the case. She always needs something to fixate on.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 10:06:23

I have OCD and Anxiety.

Symptoms of anxiety are obsessive thinking, difficulty concentrating, many more which I realise I display.

I'm not stupid. There was more to my other threads and more to this.

I may seem deluded and that I'm not realising what I'm doing, but have you seen my messages to him? Do you know exactly what I said last night? No.

I DO feel humiliated that I've behaved this way as it ISN'T me. Obviously can't go into details but my other threads? The issue that was being focused on, wasn't actually what I was worried about...oh it's too hard to explain without going into details.

I know that in the week I didn't contact him between last Tuesday and this, I hadn't thought about him and the one time I thought about contacting him or seeing him, I felt like I didn't want to - then I felt sad that my 'feelings' obviously hadn't been real after all.

But this - "She was possessive, obsessive, abusive and manipulative. She wanted constant declarations of love, constant talks about the relationship." - I'm not like that in 'RL'!
I AM easy going, funny, warm hearted, generous, yes I'm stubborn, yes I have a gob on me and am not only very opinionated, but I keep trying to make the damn point when I feel like I have a valid point to be made. I don't let things drop unless I feel I've been understood in the way that I want to be...maybe that's OCD, maybe it's Anxiety but I know it's nothing more as a few weeks ago I went to my G.P, sat there and explained everything that had happened with this man IN GREAT DETAIL to make sure the doctor knew everything, he gave me the sheet with tick boxes for depression or whatever, and diagnosed me with Anxiety.
I actually asked if he was sure it wasn't something more like Bi Polar or worse, and he said he was QUITE SURE that it wasn't anything like that as I was in his words, "quite lucid, and able to explain in detail exactly why you behave the way you do".

I'm not wandering round in la la land thinking I'm doing no wrong! Lol.

I just wanted to believe his feelings may have been genuine - not deluding myself that there's a future, but keeping hope that something can be salvaged out of all that; where's the harm in that? As long as I back off and act 'normally' then as I said - he has his choice to answer my texts, or not.

HotDogHotDogHotDiggityDog Sat 07-Sep-13 10:40:11

You don't let things drop, not because you're stubborn, it's because you think you are right. Even if it's glaringly obvious that you're not, as you've displayed throughout this thread.

As for Bi Polar? A GP doesn't diagnose Bi Polar, a Psychiatrist does.
My DM is Bi Polar, it's only a recent diagnoses too and she's 50! Oh and she is lucid and can explain her feelings perfectly well. She's not stupid, she's ill.

You are claiming you're not stupid, but you are behaving like it with this man. You sound immature and deluded if you think it's going to develop into a genuine friendship or future relationship.

If you don't love/like him that much, why the fuck are you doing this?
I know you said it's because you want him to see the 'real, stable' you, but can't you see thats quite insane?

Look, you know, we know, you will continue on this path you've chosen. You are convinced it's the right thing to do.

You're repeatedly doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results with this man.

IT'S NOT WORKING, GIVE UP!

Of course we haven't seen your massages to him, we don't need to. You keep telling us FFS!

Anyway, i'm done.

You're making my head spin, I have some sympathy for this guy, even if he's an arse!

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 11:32:56

What I meant was, the GP said there was no reason he could see to send me to see a Psychiatrist. I also sought a second opinion just in case, and that one said the same.

I HAVE been doing the same thing over and over - texting far too much, going to see him, asking him to come round, now I'm not.

Yes I will still text him; maybe in a week or two or maybe longer, depends how I feel.
He always has the choice to reply or not and as long as I don't pester the hell out of him, then I'll know won't I - either he won't reply, or he'll only ever reply to my messages with one text and not ask any further questions/text me first so it'll fizzle out anyway.

So what's the harm in that?

akaWisey Sat 07-Sep-13 11:48:23

So Why, why WHY have you started what is in effect ANOTHER pointless thread if all along you knew what you are going to do anyway?

I know why. You're ill and as another poster has pointed out - a GP is just that - a general practitioner and you need to see a psychiatrist because you are not in control of your thoughts or actions and some poor befuddled arse of a bloke is the recipient of your behaviour.

happyinherts Sat 07-Sep-13 12:33:36

Unrequited love is tough - we've all been there so we do know !

Your thread title makes clear your intentions.

His words makes clear his thoughts on the matter

We all get to the point where we have to admit defeat.

As I learned from wise MN'ers change his name in your phone to 'dont ever text or phone this number deserve better' It helps. It makes you think twice

Leave it now OP - please move on for your own sake

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 12:35:05

Why does anyone start threads on here?

How many threads do you know of where the OP has blindly followed the other posters' advice?

I am taking it on board but I don't know any of you, you don't know me, you don't know this guy or the situation.

You can make a judgement based on certain facts given, but look how much everyone's opinion on this man has changed - from "he's confused" to "he's abusive" to "he's an arse/headfuck" and now "he's befuddled, poor bloke".

I know what G.P stands for thanks very much, and how the hell can you state with so much certainty that I'm not in control of my thoughts or actions!

Take the example of going to his place last week; I knew full well what I was doing, I knew he wouldn't take it too well but I was so fucking blinded by the fact I wanted to get my point said and for him to hear it in person that I did it anyway and took the risk. The whole way there I was thinking "shouldn't be doing this, it won't go well" but I carried on, ignored the sensible side of me that was screaming at me not to go and just leave it.

Ok maybe you'll jump on now and say murderers (sorry for using such an extreme example, hoe it doesn't offend anyone) know what they're doing is wrong but do it anyway...but I've never not been able to stop myself from doing anything, that's stupid!

If you want to see how people react to breakups/second chances, feel free to search for a website called Loveshack (US site) - look in the second chances or 'coping' forum and you'll see hundreds of posts from people trying to do 'NC' and saying "oh, like, it's sooooo difficult...help me stop texting this guy please...I can't stop thinking about it...why did he say/do this, do we have a chance etc etc" and making plans about how they're going to 'win' their ex back or whatever!

You're fucking acting as if I'm the only one!

THAT'S what I hate about this place, you ask for advice (I've seen it on other people's threads too, not just this one) and if you don't immediately accept that MNetters are unequivocally right then you are accused of being deluded/naive/a troll/making pointless threads!

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 12:39:02

happyinherts - so why did he say he's confused about his feelings? Make it clear to me as I'm so stupid.

Why didn't he just say "I don't want you - ever, simple as that".

I haven't got a phone, deliberately haven't bought another one after mine got broken last week. Not intending to buy another one just yet and I don't have his number saved anywhere anyway.

What I'm saying is, how do you know he doesn't have feelings for me at all and how do you know they won't develop/return in the future? If we ever got back on better terms? Do you have a crystal ball?

I'm not deluding myself, in my mind I'm thinking it's about 90% that won't happen but there IS a chance, surely? People DO change and they do get back together.

happyinherts Sat 07-Sep-13 12:52:27

Cherry... he's a red blooded male. He has feelings. He is trying hard NOT to act on them for whatever reason he feels - doesn't want a relationship with anyone.

Feelings will never develop if you try to manipulate or control a friendship / relationship. It has to be two-sided.

I don't have a crystall ball, no. Having one might have prevented me crying over someone similar once. Someone who clearly had feelings but DID NOT want to act on them and either a) was a coward and couldn't bring himself to say the actual words or b) didn't want to hurt - so just gave stronger and stronger hints. I write from lessons learned from life not from a crystall ball

It can happen with some people, maybe - but I think with great respect to you both, it won't and you need to concentrate more on other things.

akaWisey Sat 07-Sep-13 13:03:32

Take the example of going to his place last week. I knew full well what I was doing, I knew he wouldn't take it too well but I was so fucking blinded by the fact I wanted to get my point said and for him to hear it in person that I did it anyway and took the risk……I carried on, ignored the sensible side of me that was screaming at me to not go and just leave it

This ^ OP. This shows you are not in control of your thoughts and actions. You can justify it any way you like - but if you were my DD I would be really worried about her MH and doing something about it.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 15:15:12

Ok well with respect AkaWisey, I disagree. I could have stopped and gone home anytime I wanted. I just chose not to. That's not 'not' being in control, it's ignoring your sensible side.

I'm not trying to justify anything, I don't need to. I'm just answering your point that's all smile
Tell you what, if I end up texting him as much as I have been in the past, or I go over to his place uninvited then I promise I'll post here straight away and agree with you, okay?
Because you know...if I was suffering from something more than Anxiety/OCD then I'd carry on the way I have been, yes?

happyinherts - please don't get my wrong; I'm not saying I'll be sitting around waiting for him to call! I have a lot on (went to his place during the summer holidays, school is back now so that's one thing I couldn't do, even if I had the inclination again), I work, I have a child, have classes I go to some evenings, am learning to drive and am in the process of starting a college course so I was just planning on carrying on with my life, realising that the split and now this most recent 'ending' was for the best, and keeping a bit of limited contact (we'll see each other anyway in passing, in the village).
If he ever showed an interest in coming to see me again in the future (and by future I mean 6-9 months or longer) or I asked him at some point and he agreed, then I'd take it as it came and just enjoy his company and think nothing more of it. He'd let me know if he ever developed 'those' feelings again so no point analysing and questioning.

But that's not to say I expect it to happen - yes I wanted to keep a bit of hope for it, but I don't see the harm in that as long as I don't cause him any more hassle.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 15:19:39

Also I think asking him to come over was me trying to manipulate him - or at least, asking him to come over and when he said no, laying on the "you need to do this, I need to say one last thing etc etc" lines was the manipulative/controlling part.
Not a deliberate attempt to control and hurt him or make him feel bad, but just felt he owed me, I guess.
Which I now see he doesn't.

I wouldn't be doing that any more; I might ask him if he wants to come over in the future but that's a way off and if I did and he said no, then I'd accept it and not keep on and on about it.

So I don't think I WOULD be manipulating or trying to manufacture a friendship/relationship.

akaWisey Sat 07-Sep-13 19:43:34

Then, with respect OP, if you are indeed making fully conscious decisions to act in the way you say you are - there should be no question as to your motives or his responses to them. For he is merely responding in kind.

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 19:50:22

"Then, with respect OP, if you are indeed making fully conscious decisions to act in the way you say you are - there should be no question as to your motives or his responses to them. For he is merely responding in kind."

Well clearly I AM stupid because I don't understand what you mean? About my motives/his response to them I mean...

akaWisey Sat 07-Sep-13 20:08:48

Well, you could always start another thread…..But I'm outta here. Good luck OP.

happyinherts Sat 07-Sep-13 20:23:10

cherry - read your response to my last post and that should wrap it up.

You work, you're a mum, you're going to college, you're learning to drive - that would be enough for most of us to divert our attention on.

Who knows what tomorrow brings hey? Don't waste today's time chasing a dream - just focus on what you have

So what's the harm in that?

1. He's asked you to leave him alone
2. It's not going to get you what you want (neither friendship nor a relationship)
3. It's prolonging your obsession with him
4. It's harassing and abusive

cherrysparkles Sat 07-Sep-13 21:10:33

Ok so he'll feel harassed by 2 texts in 3 months. Delicate flower that he is.

For fuck's sake!

Now I'm done with the thread...

You said a few posts back that you would text him then text again if he hadn't replied in a few hours asking if he was ignoring you. When did that happen?

"Then, with respect OP, if you are indeed making fully conscious decisions to act in the way you say you are - there should be no question as to your motives or his responses to them. For he is merely responding in kind."

Well clearly I AM stupid because I don't understand what you mean? About my motives/his response to them I mean...

I think she means that you are consciously acting nuts so maybe he is too?

SisterMonicaJoan Sat 07-Sep-13 23:57:07

Tbh op, I can't see you only sending 2 texts in 3 months...

Ain't gonna happen sad

cherrysparkles Sun 08-Sep-13 06:47:49

Ehric - to be honest, it happened nearly every time I text him. Well maybe not but quite regularly.

SMJ - I'm certainly not going to be texting him anywhere near as often as before...might contact him in a couple of weeks and then see how he responds; if he doesn't or it's just a brief response to my "how are things" then I wont try and get him into a conversation and might try another text a few weeks after that.

Head:desk
Please, please just don't text him. It's so unhealthy.

Dearjackie Sun 08-Sep-13 08:36:33

Delurking to post this

Please please don't contact him in ANY way. Why would you want to text someone whose made it clear they don't want a relationship?

You just said if he doesn't respond you'll try again a few weeks later WHY WOULD YOU?

He is telling you your not welcome. Gain some power and self respect by leaving it alone PLEASE

Jaynebxl Sun 08-Sep-13 08:52:38

Ok I've just read through this post and here's what I think:

He fancies you, finds you attractive etc but you've been too complicated / high maintenance / hard work and he doesn't want a relationship with you.

When someone says I like you but I'm not ready for a relationship, it is generally bollocks because of someone came along who they liked enough they would go for it.

He doesn't cut contact because he does still fancy you but you haven't given him the space he asked for and when you've met up you've overanalysed the relationship and the previous meeting. Things are not going to change. You will keep texting him and turning up and trying to analyse things with him despite what you say about just wanting to see if you can have a normal friendship with him, because the two of you can't have a normal friendship.

He does not want a normal partner style relationship with you now and he won't in the future.

That's it really. You have thrown away your dignity and self respect in front of this guy and need to walk away, find your self respect again and not start with someone else til you have it.

You used to harass him by text until very recently. You have decided you will only text once every week, or few months (not sure which) but you must acknowledge that any further text contact will be received in the same way previous texts were (oh for fuck sake, it's cherry again, why won't she get the hint and leave me alone) because you have set up a situation whereby receiving a text from you is stressful and annoying. If any man behaved with me the way you have behaved to him I would experience it as harassment.

Spickle Sun 08-Sep-13 09:01:16

You are going along with the idea that he is confused. He probably is, but it would seem that he is the one with the power.

He needs to decide whether or not he wants a relationship with you (you've made plain you want a relationship with him) and whether that relationship is as BF/GF, FWB or Just Friends. You are not allowing him the time and space to make this decision.

You are sounding so desperate to have any kind of relationship with this man, that you are clinging on to whatever snippet of hope he gives you.

He holds all the cards and you will have to accept whatever that decision is, it cannot be made until he has the space away from you that he has repeatedly asked for.

Walkacrossthesand Sun 08-Sep-13 09:11:43

Why do you need to keep testing the water by texting him 'every few weeks' ? You've been banging on about some 6-9 month timescale for letting things go quiet in the hope that he'll decide that it's you he wants after all and he's not a goldfish - he won't forget you exist if you stop texting him, and from most of the encounters you describe he wouldn't be hurt or put out if you stopped texting. You're driving this, regardless of all the angst and analysis of how words - you're the one that keeps texting, pestering for a response, turning up - so just stop, already!

I really, really hope he reports you to the police. It's the only way you are going to get the wake up call you need.

Floggingmolly Sun 08-Sep-13 10:41:16

Op has made several references to he doesn't want to be made a laughing stock in the village type scenarios, SGB. She's obviously got something on him to use as blackmail, or thinks she does.
The poor fucker is probably completely over a barrel sad

SoThisIsHowYouNameChange Sun 08-Sep-13 12:19:50

I read the whole thread.

Wow.

I think this is some sort of personality disorder, which goes beyond mental illness.

Until or unless the op realises that she has a problem, nothing can be done for her.

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