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Really need some help

(110 Posts)
Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 21:44:58

Hello, I'm pregnant with DC3 and after a long rough patch which seemed to be getting better we had a huge row and'D' P has just stormed out again. God knows where he has gone this time. Our relationship became a mess during my pregnancy with DC2 as he can't handle my pregnancy mood swings and shuts down when in fact I need support emotionally the most so any emotional withdrawal makes me feel even more alone than I already am. Apologies if this is rather incoherent as I'm crying my eyes out in frustration and hurt having been walked out on for the umpteenth time! I can't talk to anyone as we have become that nightmare couple that argue all the time in fact I've lost friends over our ups and downs but we are trying to stick it out as we I guess hope things will go back to some kind of normal relationship. We have both become by nasty and disrespectful in some instances and its hard to some back from that well it seems like its hard to come back from that in light of what is happening now. I can't forgive him for past indiscretions (no affairs, or so he says) but boundary breaking and line crossing. Walking out is his favourite hurtful trick and he has promised not to do but once again here we are.
I'm so upset and so uncertain about our family's future. Where the fuck has he gone this time damnit!

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 21:52:49

Hugs.

I'd use this time to think carefully about the relationship and less about where he is.

When he left, were the children in bed already?

What are your mood swings? Tearful? Angry? Quiet?

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 21:57:01

I had off the scale ante/postnatal depression with Dc2 due to zero support/hormones etc and its spilling over to this pregnancy. His crappy behaiour and minimising his shittiness towards me dosnt help. This isn't a poor me pity party saying this either as I'm not usually prone to falling apart. I can be a total b*tch when feeling threatened in our relationship but so can he!
Both in bed but older one was awake and knows he has stormed out. Not ideal in any way I know. I can't make him care or understand which is what I can't cope with.

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 22:02:54

What do you mean feeling threatened?

What is his shitty behaviour?

Viking1 Tue 06-Aug-13 22:03:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:10:13

Yep, in the beginning of our relationship he was a nightmare, all over the place and really immature but after our baby was born he became the devoted father. He is a great dad and I can't fault him on that however his lack of empathy and compassion unless I am being well behaved in a sense and not stressing him out all hell breaks loose. I'm quite hormonal during pregnancy and usually pretty relaxed when not and he can't cope with any drama.
I was naively under the impression this was a team effort and not just me complying all the time and behaving and responding the way I'm told to. Yes I can be very controlling and my excuse is self preservation, I've yet to hear his. We have a massive rift and have had for some time and because of the PND a few weeks ago I lost the plot entirely. As I said I thought we were getting back on track but I'm starting to realise that's only when I'm being behaving! It's a nightmare at the moment if I'm honest and I don't see a way forward with or without him.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:12:50

Lweji there is a lot of emotional abuse going on from both sides. He just can't see it. I am great at over analysing, where he has never questioned his behaviour in the slightest

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 22:16:09

What do people in RL say?

Under emotional abuse, we can behave as if we were abusers too.

I do wonder.

Snazzyenjoyingsummer Tue 06-Aug-13 22:17:05

So what would happen if you said you have had enough and want to separate?

Firebomb Tue 06-Aug-13 22:17:39

I understand completely. I could have written this post myself except I only have one child and my ups and downs come from BPD :/. My SO threatens to leave every time we argue, has left for a day or two sometimes and walks out a lot and just drives off. I absolutely hate it. Every time he tells me "well I could just leave" I just want to tell him 'bye' but I don't want to break up our family.

WE have also become that nightmare couple that just argue everywhere. Everything is an argument no matter who we're around or where we are. People have stopped asking us round cause they don't want to listen and absolutely no one wants to hear about it so no advice is given lol.

the only advice I can offer is something I haven't been taking myself. sit him down, make him listen to you and if he tries to walk away from you, let him. Tell him you need someone mature enough to help you instead of hinder you because with three DC you need support, not constantly wondering if this is going to be the time he walks out for good.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:19:22

Lweji Not much really just they want me to be happy etc I don't go into too much detail as I find it hard to talk mostly.

I've never heard that about emotional abuse, could you tell me a bit more please so I can try an understand what's happening in my situation. I feel like we are both driving each other crazy for very different reasons.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:20:35

Snazzy been there done that, he just says fine if that's what you want. We are all masters at idle threats around here.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:23:32

Firebomb, poor you. I like to think he is being mature in diffusing a potentially volatile situation and but in reality he knows the very fact that he can just leave, leaves me at a disadvantage and is really saying this is why you need me to be here as you can't cope. This is also my crazy pregnant brain in over drive. I have a few more theories and all of them as irrational. I guess he just wants to avoid conflict, ie deal with any issues.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:34:13

Also Firebomb, I've tried to sit down and talk but he gets annoyed if he doesn't hear what he likes and just repeats what I say as in I will say this upsets me and his reply with be oh but you do the same or you do this. It makes me want to tear my hair out. I've never had any sort of mental health issues (there I said it) previously so to be so out of control during pregnancy is terrifying in itself. For me it's a lack of support and understanding but I'm apparently being unreasonable in this. Fair enough I can sound like a mad woman sometimes but I'm allowed my point of view and I'm entitled to feel the way I do irrespective of what he thinks. I like to think I'm fairly strong minded generally but the walking out as I'm sure you know is devastating. I haven't learned to not give a fuck yet!

Doha Tue 06-Aug-13 22:42:08

This is no atmosphere for your Dc's to be living in especially as the older one was awake during the argument. I eel quite sorry for them.
You both need to get this sorted-or split before the DC's are damaged by all the drama

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 22:45:06

I relate to your wanting to tear my hair out.

I'd get to be a screaming banshee, which I don't to people. This after years with a man who wouldn't let go. He'd question and question, of claim black was white.
You lose it and you blame yourself.

Pregnancy is a particularly bad time. When we are at our most vulnerable, and yes, less emotionally stable.

It doesn't sound like you can be yourself around him.
And he leaves, with you holding the children, and wondering about it.

Does he ever apologise?

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:45:15

Doha I agree. We tried Relate, it was terrible. The therapist couldn't get anyone's name right, visibly cringed at mentions of babies and basically said she felt sorry for DP having to deal with, her words 'a mad woman'. Madness was due to DNP, she just like the phrase instead of actually saying PND. Anyway I digress. Any ideas on where to start to get our proverbial together then?

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 22:48:50

Lweji, I don't think he can spell sorry let alone say it. He claims he never does anything wrong so what does he have to apologise for! I have lists of his perceived indiscretions. While I'm almost certain he has remained faithful he has crossed many boundaries one too many times for me to pander to his lip service. So it's a stand off I guess. He thinks he offers olive branches, I think I let him get away with murder if I 'just let things go for god sakes woman, I do all the time'

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 22:55:14

Where are you going to draw the line?

You need to have one to yourself and stick to it, even if it hurts like hell and it feels like you are carrying a tone in weight.

For your sake, and the children's.

Even for the unborn.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 23:00:35

I can be horrible too, it's both of us. I know that may sound like an excuse but we want a family together however the combination of past hurts by him and my crazy hormones are making me lose all perspective and incapable of controlling what I say. I pretty much just say what I'm thinking even if its not particularly nice and that in turns sends him into a furious rage.
I don't know where to draw the line which is part of the problem. I have everything invested in this relationship and couldn't cope on my own at the moment. I'm not just saying that either!

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 23:08:52

Why shouldn't you say what you are thinking?
Do you call him names? Do you swear?

What kind of furious rage?

You can't make a relationship work on your own, and if you don't like the way you are around him, maybe it's wrong.

You don't have to leave now, but confronted with you leaving, perhaps he'll find the urge to change properly, if he can at all.

And if the best thing for you is to leave, then you can make it work. Seriously.
You just need to seek help and ways to do it.

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 23:09:48

"and if you don't like the way you are around him, maybe it's wrong."
I mean, the relationship is wrong, not that you are wrong.

Brokemyself Tue 06-Aug-13 23:15:48

The name calling and swearing precedent was set when he told me to fuck off in front of the eldest child. So now there are no holds barred.

Recently though we have started to get back on track but tonight it's all fallen apart again and I'm terrified of going back to the place we were a few months ago. I quite literally wanted to disappear from my life on more than one occasion, luckily, once the dust has settled I get over it and try and carry on but the adage has already been done.

I have a bit of an issue trusting him as he has lied quite frequently in the past, the usual excuse of 'oh I didn't want to get into an argument'. As we all know this really doesn't work.

I'm ok with believing he is being honest when I'm feeling rational and like we have some sort of connection but dues to the general everyday stress of newborns and significant other situations happening that connection isn't felt very often and that's when I think I lose all perspective.

Lweji Portugal Tue 06-Aug-13 23:23:23

I don't think it's surprising you have PND or any sort of depression.

Personally, I felt much calmer when I gave up emotionally on the marriage.
At some point it made no difference if he lied.

Maybe consider calling Women's Aid for advice? They may be able to help you see a way out of this.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 00:20:50

He isn't physically abusive or anything though...

wordyBird Wed 07-Aug-13 00:56:27

Women's Aid is for all women, and domestic abuse extends way beyond just the physical. Please think about talking to them.

Your relationship sadly ticks a lot of emotional abuse boxes...
- starts, or is worse when you are pregnant (because you need support, but he wants you to focus on him)
- his lack of empathy and compassion ..unless I am being well behaved in a sense and not stressing him out all hell breaks loose. So everything's fine as long as you behave how he wants
- I am great at over analysing, where he has never questioned his behaviour in the slightest .... very typical in EA
- when you complain about his behaviour, he turns it round by saying you do it too
- name calling and swearing

Do think about calling them OP.

Firebomb Wed 07-Aug-13 01:10:53

I believe that if you want the relationship to get better, you both have to work on fixing it, not just one of you. Definitely get the kiddos away when you are arguing. If you feel like there is going to be a fight, send them to their room to play before it starts and try to keep things quiet. I HATE when my SO yells at me in front of my son, cause I just watch him, watching us and it breaks my heart because he shouldn't be exposed to anger yet. I hate my SO sometimes for causing that small loss of innocence.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 09:12:44

We have another huge argument this am. It was completely my fault, I'm still upset about last night and he just ignores me and stonewalls when I'm upset which makes me feel awful.

I walked out this morning which I've never done before and left him with the children, I went sobbing around the block so was only gone for about 15 minutes. He looked like he wanted to kill me as he is now ten minutes last for work. It was horrible. He has thrown things at me before and token a few of my things thankfully he just stormed out.

Like I said it was probably my fault as I started it by looking for some sort of response from him or he would ignore me for days and sleep in separate rooms which is what normally happens.

You are probably going to ask why I stay, well this is my family so...
I'm at breaking point every day and never sleep for more than three hours at a time during the night because I'm so stressed out by all of this.

My neighbours think we are crazy and to all intents and purposes we probably are. I don't have great neighbours so not really too upset by their opinion. I am working with my HV as of yesterday but that I feel devastated on a daily basis and I know it's not normal to feel this shit!

He has told me during arguments he 'fucking hates me' and I make him more unhappy than he has ever been amongst per things but them we make up and he is nice and helpful to some extent.

I am usually very confident but have no self esteem after the last few months and its soul destroying.

HoopersGinger Wed 07-Aug-13 09:26:16

Morning OP. Stay here today. It sounds like you're tearing yourself to pieces trying to make him give you some reassurance that everything is ok. Back off. Don't react. Give yourself some space. Try to disengage and chat here instead of texting him etc.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 10:02:57

Too late re the texts...I find it really hard to control my reactions at the moment. It's all power play with him and I'm not so good with keeping my mouth shut since I've been pregnant. I do blame myself in this, I'm not looking for sympathy but I could as you say not react in the way I do. He just can't deal with me. The minute I'm not behaving the way he thinks I should or responding how he thinks appropriate its back to square one.

wordyBird Wed 07-Aug-13 10:19:12

The minute I'm not behaving the way he thinks I should or responding how he thinks appropriate its back to square one.

...this isn't normal, is it? You're blaming yourself, but it's not your fault. Healthy relationships aren't like this.

MumnGran Wed 07-Aug-13 10:22:04

OP - sometimes we try and try to make something work, when maybe it really is time to call it a day.
While the two of you are involved in this constant battle, life at home must be very miserable.
Is it the right environment for your children to grow up in?
Are you ever going to feel that you have a stable life, when you partner departs in a flounce every time you disagree?
Aren't you entitled to more than that.

Alone is scary, but not as miserable as living in a war zone.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 10:26:38

Not it isn't normal in theory I understand the principles of a healthy relationship (I think) but reality is so warped right now. I wind him up with my insecurities.

Insecurities stemming from past lying and dodgy behaviour he still downplays to this day! It's all in my head he says. I'm crazy and have issues. Maybe I do but for bloody good reason.

I tried individual counselling for a bit but the therapist didn't seem to think there was much wrong with me bar coping with a hundred different issues you shouldn't have to cope with in a lifetime Le alone a period of a few months.

He has said I make him lose his temper which even I know is bullshit. I'm not taking the moral high road but I do accept responsibility for my bad behaviour however he won't.

We aren't equals anymore and I feel like I'm 17 against struggling with all sorts of stupid teenage insecurities. I'm a grown woman FFS.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 10:32:38

MumnGran

Hello. I agree wholeheartedly and have left relationships at the first sign of any red flag rubbish. There is no outright malicious intent to anyone's behaviour if that makes sense it's all borne out of frustration and stress. Not excusing it by any means! It's a situation out of our control.

Main problem is I am finding it hard to let go of the past and move forward and no issues are ever addressed and the same behaviour continues.

He is a 'move forward' person (so am I!) but for him that means ignoring anything difficult. Ie my feelings towards shitty, denigrating and disrespectful behaviour.

He is great with the children mostly but it's quite highly strung. Blames me for this of course. Maybe I do stress him out.

But yes this environment is not going to produce emotionally mature and stable children I agree. We want this family unit to work but with so little trust and respect its hard not to fall back on old patterns. Especially when no past issues have ever been addressed let alone resolved.

lemonstartree Wed 07-Aug-13 10:34:06

why on earth did you bring THREE children into this horrible, abusive (both ways I expect) hostile environment ? What do you think they are learning about how adults treat each other ?

if its stressful with two kids - what will it be like with three?

I suggest you ask him to stay away for a while an have a bloody good think - both of you - what you want form life and particularly family life, Then you need some serious marital therapy and a genuine commitment to be respectful & polite to each other, and behave to each other in the same way you would to any other adult. If you cannot do this then FFS call time and move on.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 10:43:37

Thanks lemon, I was waiting for this question that I haven't asked myself time and time again smile

We planned a family with three children and are really happy about this one. As I said we were doing really well after my PND/his crappy support.

We have been on a waiting list for therapy for ages now.

Thanks for your other comments they make sense.

MumnGran Wed 07-Aug-13 11:04:27

I am going to try and say this in the gentlest way I can given the limits of an online forum ....... are you sure you know what red flags look like, in all the various shades?
You say you have left previous relationships which showed major signals, but minor signals can be hard to spot until stress brings them to full on fury.
You mention so many many things which are not right in your relationship. OP. They are not right in any relationship, and the fact that your partner feels very stressed because you are suffering from pregnancy related emotional issues is not an excuse. Of any kind.

Please stand back from this and look at what you are really saying:
He walks out when you have disagreements, and blames you
He doesn't speak to you for days, and blames you
He breaks your things, and blames you
If he thinks you are not being 'well behaved' then 'all hell breaks loose'
If you speak honestly and he doesn't like it, then he flies into a 'furious rage'
He has lied repeatedly in the past
He tells you to fuck off in front of your children.
Life is only OK when you 'behave yourself' on his terms
You have lost friends over this relationship
Your family are past the point of offering support
The people who live close to you are horrified by what they hear.

Any which way you look at this, OP, this is a damning list and I can't think of many people who would not see red flags waving up and down like a parade!

There are two ways of looking at it.
Either he is responsible for his own behaviour and is subjecting you to serious emotional abuse
Or - if one accepts that you contribute a 50% share to the abuses in the relationship and I don't accept that from a pregnant woman with PND, I'm afraid then you need to realise that this is actually a toxic relationship for both of you and should be ended before the problems escalate any further.

See some sense, OP.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 11:13:59

Oh I fully accept its red flag central here however as I said in an ideal world we would both like to resolve this however don't know where to start which is hopefully why counselling will help.

Maybe I'm being naive though. He claims he has never behaved this way in his previous relationship which was almost a decade long. I guess I'm hoping we will get though this.

He says he isn't coping with all the stress. My response is to man up which pisses him off.

I'm trying not to bet on potential here but I want this family to be happy but I am also not willing to sacrifice myself for anyone. Yes you may say I've already done that.

From your experience do you think this is completely unsalavagble?

MumnGran Wed 07-Aug-13 11:19:52

See my previous post

Womens aid - NOW!!!!
This is abuse and you need to realise it quickly.
Your poor kids are suffering all the time.
You need some space away from this man. Tell him not to come home until you give him the go ahead.
It sounds like absolute hell and how you are living with it every day while you are looking after 2 children and pregnant, it totally beyond me.
Give yourself a break from it all - today!!!!

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 11:34:16

I want to make this work though. That's not wrong.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 11:34:51

Hellsbells this sounds pathetic but it's not all him...

lemonstartree Wed 07-Aug-13 11:35:26

We planned a family with three children but what about those three children ? what kind of a life will they have with parents who cannot be civil to one another ??

Children are not objects for you to acquire come hell or high water.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 11:43:48

A terrible one. We don't have a hostile environment just currently a very volatile one. There is a difference not that it makes it any better for the children being subjected to any of it - which is why we both want to 'fix' what is happening.

I don't for one second think that, what a strange thing to say.

MumnGran Wed 07-Aug-13 12:57:21

but it's not all him...
as I said, if you believe that the issue is as much your fault as your partner, then you still need to get some distance because the relationship between you is toxic.
Some people just shouldn't be together. They can have decent relationships with other people (in theory) but should never be together.
Unless they enjoy living in hell.
And raising children in that environment.

I have the feeling you are not wanting to hear this, OP.

Brokemyself Wed 07-Aug-13 15:05:06

No, came on here for honesty. I have been pregnant in some capacity for the past two and a half years as DC2 is just under a year we also lost another baby before all this so it's been hard on everyone really. I haven't coped, he hasn't coped, I blame him for falling apart, he blames me and so on. Yes I guess you're right it is toxic.

Lweji Portugal Wed 07-Aug-13 17:28:00

Everything you have said makes me want to give you a big hug. You seem so lost and desperate.

Sometimes the only way to win is to walk away.
All of you win, including the children.

As much as we have been through during divorce, DS is now in a much more stable environment, with us separated.

Staying in a doomed relationship is also about control. We don't give up, but sometimes giving up IS the best thing to do.

Give up the fight, give up expecting anything from him.

It's not the stress. It's you not keeping things buried deep down, it's him not feeling in control of you, it's him not being allowed to be selfish.

Do talk to WA. Do talk to people in RL.
And keep it here for perspective too. smile

Brokemyself Thu 08-Aug-13 20:53:37

You're right, giving up seems to be the only sensible option here. Thanks for your kind advice.

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 12:56:32

I have literally had enough today. I want him to leave I really do, he is spiteful and cruel and I'm at the point where I just can't continue. I can't eat I can't sleep, I can't relate to DCs. I am totally isolated at home as he withholds funds and I'm completely dependent on him while I'm on maternity. I've really really fucked up. I can't cope on my own though and have no family to help. I don't know what to do.

mummytime Belgium Fri 09-Aug-13 13:14:00

Phone Women's Aid. If you can't get through try: police 101 and ask for DV or your HV or Samaritans. There is help.

Oh Broke this gets worse the more you post.
He with-holds funds!? That is clear abuse.
As PP said - call womens aid or police.
Call Citizens Advice and see where you stand for benefits etc...
Why can't you cope on your own?
You'll be amazed at how much together you will be once you have this low life out of the way.
Do you actually have no family or are they far away?
Do you have a friend you can talk to in RL who can help you get away?

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 13:34:32

Can't talk in RL as everything looks just peachy from the outside. Don't think it's a police matter!
He refuses to speak to me about any of the issues happening and I'm completely in my own. He works and I stay at home on my own. I this is what happens but I never get the opportunity to do any of the things I used to. Lack of funds, massively depressed etc I feel like I have completely failed and my 'wonderful' family who are all far away love reminding me of this too. Well the two of them that have been made aware of what's happened in the past.

I know he is unhappy in this relationship but he keeps saying he wants to have a go at making it work but then does nothing to indicate he really deep down wants to try. He has stayed away in the past after storming out, it was a week the last time and he claimed he was miserable but I just don't think he was. It's easier for him to be at home for many reasons.

I cry at the drop of a hat well in the past two days and he just looks at me like I'm disgusting. We don't even sleep in the same room, he knows how much it upsets me when he ignores me and he uses it as a weapon.

Sigh, this sounds so futile doesn't it. Sad thing is if he started just being normal and supportive I probably would want to try.

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 13:38:44

Also the fact he is not so great with being upfront and honest doesn't help matter so I can't trust him. Various incidents which were does played over the last few years saw to that!

He entirely has his own agenda and refuses to help as a team. His priorities are still that of someone who is single bar giving the impression he is superdad. For example when we are with his family, he will run around like he does envy thing at home and tell me what I should be doing with DC2. I actually said to him the last time WTAF do you think you're doing, I'm the one at home day in day out and we are still all alive without having you to monitor what's been going on!

I am rambling now. Sorry.

TheJiminyConjecture Fri 09-Aug-13 14:42:34

At the risk of sounding mean, are you sure you're being honest with regards to what goes on? If what you say is true, losing friends, neighbours hearing you row etc Things are hardly going to look as you put it 'peachy' from the outside? I'm concerned that you may be minimising quite how bad it is as you can so easily blame it on pg rage.

Val007 Fri 09-Aug-13 15:11:03
Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 15:17:27

As far as everyone is concerned at the moment, I'm just getting on with looking after the children so don't have much time outside of that. Truth is I'm too exhausted to want to do anything outside of our home and with anyone I used to spend time with. Not sure the neighbours do hear us, I just worry they do.

I'm starting to realise that after today it's not all me being crazy and that I have valid points and I've let my boundaries be smashed to pieces. I'm finding it hard to re-establish them and am being met with massive opposition. He thinks he has done nothing wrong and just ignores all of it. I try and sit down and talk but he just walks off the minute the conversation gets remotely honest. I don't know how to deal with it when this happens

We are next of the list for counselling but I don't hold much hope aft the Relate experience. I'm even at the point where I'd rather just go on my own. In a way it's liberating to start to care a little less but it is very lonely considering my current circumstances and I look to him for comfort even though he is the reason in part why I feel like complete crap.

Many with say stupid girl having another baby but we were doing so well and getting back in track. I think maybe past issues from his end aren't resolved. He doesn't think he has any issues but his behaviour as far as I'm concerned indicate there is a lot of anger and resentment or whatever it is going on. I don't care what is it either I just want him to be honest and sort it out for everyone's sake.

I do feel like we are living in some 1950's tv show a lot of the time, the dynamic in his household growing up was very different and he is expecting me to confirm to his and I mine. There is no balance and no teamwork which clearly is a eclipse for disaster.

I'm just so shocked at how badly this situation is affecting me emotionally as I've always been quite resilient but right now am absolutely crumbling into a sobby mess.

I hate myself for not being stronger and more assertive. I must be communicating terribly to just be trampled all over when I do try and talk.

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 15:18:53

Thanks Val. he is classic passive aggressive and withholds affection as his favourite weapon of choice. During arguments I've accused him of as much...amongst other things.

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 15:22:04

And wow that particular article was so accurate!

Val007 Fri 09-Aug-13 15:34:05

divorcesupport.about.com/u/ua/abusiverelationships/pass_agg_behaviors.htm

They never change, Broke! If you read the experience of women in 20-25-30 year marriages - they all leave in the end. Only, they have suffered the entire length of the marriage in hope. No mention of the damage suffered by children in such marriages, but I can imagine it is horrendous...

wordyBird Fri 09-Aug-13 15:59:39

You are not being crazy. Your points are valid. And it's not caused by terrible communication patterns, Broke. He will always trample all over you; it is what happens with type of person.

Has anyone mentioned this book yet?
www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-That-Controlling-ebook/dp/B000Q9J0RO/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376060162&sr=1-1&keywords=why+does+he+do+that

....it will give a lot of insight into the source of his anger.

Please do not attempt couples counselling with him, but go to Relate on your own, for support.

This thread might help too:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1799986-Support-for-those-in-Emotionally-Abusive-relationships-24

garlicagain Fri 09-Aug-13 16:27:23

Broke, I will have to go back and read everything thoroughly but, for now, I want to add to the chorus of voices singing "it's not you, it's him".

Both of my marriages were what would be called 'volatile'. They were full of rows, screaming, crying, angry silences, things being thrown and things being done behind the other's back. I will not say I gave as much as I got, but I gave plenty and believe I often did start the rows, as my exes said.

Outside of certain relationships, I am a calm, highly reasoned, warm and compassionate individual. I'm a 'persuader' of sorts - debating society; worked in sales - with no fear of rational confrontation. I am not ashamed of my emotions, and trust myself to express them honestly. These things have always been true of me - but I'm having to re-learn them, since my covertly abusive second husband managed to destroy my personality to such an extent that I no longer knew myself.

He did this by sneakily moving the goals of our relationship, so the life I was living didn't actually match the life we had described together (and continued to describe, in public.) I am a 'persuader' - I applied my words and emotions to this problem, expecting him to engage with me in analysis and planning to get us back on track. What he did with this was clever: he answered indirectly, turning my queries into pleas & accusations, then became angry when I got frustrated. It seemed that I was unreasonable, argumentative, demanding ... I could not dispute that I cried, yelled, accused and stormed off.

What I missed, at the time, was the way I readily reviewed my own poor behaviour, while he denied his own. When I asked "What are you angry about?", for example, his reply would be "What's your problem?" He repeatedly cast me as an unstable loon, and, because I am willing to consider criticism, I came to feel he might be right. Consequently, I tried to change myself sad

We often picture the abused as quietly, abjectly or patiently, submitting to verbal, financial or physical blows - like helpless little animals. But think about it: are little animals always submissive? There are four instinctive responses to attack: fight, flee, freeze and fawn. Most of us utilise the full range, but have preferences. The two reactions I most often display are Fight, and Fawn. You can see how this combination would appeal to a certain kind of egotist: he got challenged; he got to engage in 'battle'; and he got to 'win'. Metaphorically bloody but unbowed, he would then crow over my defeat by (metaphorically) leading me around in chains, while I sang his praises. This was in the 'hoovering' cycle, when I'm sorry to say I mistook my secondary fear response - fawning - for overwhelming love hmm

If you've read this far, you deserve flowers and wine with biscuit and you might also be wondering what changed. Given that he'd persuaded me I was an insecure, erratic loon, I went and got myself a therapist. This therapist taught me to swap my Fight/Fawn responses for something more sophisticated: calm observation. After a couple of months practising that, I started to see How He Did It. I also saw, with a nauseous feeling, that it was all a game to him. He played with me like a cat with a mouse. Just for the ego boost, the bastard.

Apologies for writing so extensively about myself and, if you've read it, thank you! I thought it might be helpful for you to see other women's experiences of being turned to "I'm abusive, too" by abusers who enjoy the power of changing you.

garlicagain Fri 09-Aug-13 16:28:43

No mention of the damage suffered by children in such marriages ... Well, yes! Such a marriage trained my sister and me to be superb foils for abusers. What else could we have learned?

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 17:12:54

Garlic

I've just had a bit of a funny turn, I think it's the stress! Quite scary panic attack thing which I have only ever had once before years aho. Today has been absolutely diabolical. Him hanging up, me saying I desperately need help today as I'm not very well at the moment, him well doing what he always does and telling me I'm out of line and to just deal with it he is busy.

Your story sounds so familiar. He paints himself as some sort of saintly creature, to himself of course and everyone around him. I'm made out to be the hysterical demanding female, which of course is complete crap.

That is the worst part trying to figure out what the hell is actually going on. I feel like I'm losing my mind on a daily basis and it got so bad my GP was going to refer me to quite literally be taken away to some mad house! I've never been like this in my entire life. I have we'll had a decent career, been to very good schools etc so I do know what is right and what is wrong, however at the moment it just seems like all the lines have been completely blurred and I can't think for myself as I am never allowed to. Hence the arguments as I automatically rebel against this.

I am terrified of him at the moment, he has never hit me but I know he has wanted to. I don't think he ever would but its the emotional pain he inflicts. This all probably sounds overly dramatic but I can't keep it all inside any longer.

garlicagain Fri 09-Aug-13 17:19:52

Oh, darling, this is having a terrible effect on you, isn't it sad FWIW, I did end up in "some kind of mad house" (a posh one, thanks to insurance grin) and it turned out to be life-changing in a very good way. I didn't have kids, though.

Look, you need to get some safety and you need it quickly. I'll have a better read of your thread, to see where you might find it. Meantime, would you please rustle up some support for today? Ring Women's Aid?
Ideally, you'd be able to get either him or yourself + DC out of the house for a few weeks.

Thinking kindly of you.

wordyBird Fri 09-Aug-13 17:27:34

It's not overly dramatic, Broke: that's how emotional abuse feels. It is truly awful.

Please call Women's aid, they will understand and can help
www.womensaid.org.uk/

0808 2000 247

You don't have to do this on your own brew

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 17:41:02

I tried them but no answer. Is there any hope of him actually ever seeing what he has done? Or is that not quite how it works? He does think he is better than me and gods gift which is wearing a bit thin as its all an act with him.

All the signs were there when we first met, the drinking, the immaturity, the flirting and schoolboy charm around other women. I just didn't want to admit it to myself. Then the nastiness started. and the lying 'to avoid an argument'. Why lie! when After the pregnancy before our DD I was rushed to hospital for an emergency D & C. He didn't even come as he had a dentist appointment in the am and couldn't get back as then he would miss it or some crap. I was really scared and ill. This is justnonenof many things vie forgiven him for...I still hope though. I must be such a fool!

It does feel such a relief to get at least some of it off y chest.

garlicagain Fri 09-Aug-13 18:15:07

It does feel a relief, doesn't it? A chance, finally, to sift through the rubble and see what's underneath. (Goodness, I am metaphorical today! blush)

Go ahead and get more of your chest, if you have time.

I'm sorry you couldn't get through to Women's Aid. Well done on ringing! Do try again, please, perhaps after the weekend.

If you've joined the Emotional Abuse thread, you will have seen how important detachment can be for your mental health & emotional survival. There is hope of him actually ever seeing what he has done, mainly because he already knows - consciously or unconsciously; I suspect a little of both. He could choose not to manipulate you into unhappy contortions, but chooses to carry on. That's the nub of it, really.

Here's an imaginary detachment tool, taught by my therapist under light hypnosis but I think it'll work by itself - you'll need a calm, safe space where you can be alone for five minutes. Rest your back against something comfy; shake the tension out of your neck and shoulders. Now breathe deeply, in and out, focusing on the clean air coming into your body then exhaling safely into the atmosphere. Construct for yourself, in your imagination, an invisible shield. It can be made of anything you like (mine's made of blue light,) as long as it's transparent. Your shield covers you entirely, shrinking and expanding to suit your needs. You may furnish it however you like - make it exactly right for you, and you alone. Take some time over this smile

You can always see, and hear, others through your personal shield, and they you. Its special quality is that it deflects aggression. People may fire angry, hurtful words at you, and, while you're in your shield, you'll be aware of what they say but the harsh intent will just bounce off your shield, like arrows off carbon steel. (Or rubber, if you'd like them to bounce right back at the speaker!) Inside your shield, your inner Jeremy Paxman stands by your side, providing cool and clear commentary on what other people are doing. My invisible shield contains a lovely, imaginary little desk, with pot plants and a notebook - for writing down my observations on the shenanigans happening outside!

This might not have worked for you - if not, fair enough. No harm done. If you think you could give it a try, though, please do!

Brokemyself Fri 09-Aug-13 18:37:45

Ill definitely give that a go, I'll give any a go right now. I also like the fact I get to activate my very own Jeremy Paxman :D

What really also boths me is the wasted time. It's so clear to me on some levels what's happening here and although in an ideal world I want to scream and say you're doing this because of this I can't as he won't listen and tell me I'm psychoanalysing him blah blah. I'm not I'm just pointing out the screamingly obvious. I don't condescend to him or patronise him even tough pointing out the reality of the situation may sound like it.

He is terrible at reading people and takes them at face value hence his very shallow view on the world. I've pre-emptied situations months before they've unfolded and he'll turn around and say oh you're right again. I don't want to be bloody right in the midst of a situation which could have been avoided by having a tiny bit of insight. On one hand he is a giant people pleaser well with woman anyway so much so it's uncomfortable for my female friends who are can't see through him. Many of them can! Hence the loss of them and annoyance as me for still sticking this out.

He says his intentions are pure which is great but it's the actions which are contradictory to that. I have major trust issues with him. I've found messages to 'old friends' during the terrible period around the d and c.

I confronted him straight away and he downplayed it of course so who knows. I'm not sure anything physical has ever happened but then I'd doubt I'd know anyway. He has openly flirted in front of me which I found unacceptable as it made me question his integrity and have many other things but each time I have tried to look at the bigger picture and move on. You can't though not if the trust has been smashed to pieces and he hasn't bothered to repair it is any way.

My friend sent me this the other day:

Grab a plate and throw it on the floor

-okay done

Did it break

-yes

Now say sorry to it

-sorry

Did it go back to the way it was before

-no

Do you understand

For me this very simple concept is what he doesn't realise in anyway. I have an issue, I explain why in upset or how damaging his behaviour has been. Like for example going out drinking not coming back when he says he would not calling so I'm wondering what the hell has happened and leaving me pregnant worried and looking after children. This is just a minor bitch but never the less its consistent inconsiderate behaviour and not caring how I feel in any of it. We have kids the game has changed and I'm constantly picking up the pieces of the mess he makes.

I'm too tired to enjoy anything anymore. Emotionally tired.

Thank you for all your insight though, it's the most clear perspective I've had on this for a very very long time and I'm very glad I'm not being completely crazy.

wordyBird Fri 09-Aug-13 19:27:13

You're definitely not being crazy: your experiences are 'crazy-making'.

Abusive people show a consistent failure of empathy, and to some degree a failure of conscience. I think this is why some of them cannot read situations accurately, or understand why you are upset by their actions (and don't want to understand).

They are the centre of their own world. They cannot understand why they aren't the centre of YOUR world too. It frustrates them if you try to get your own needs met. It frustrates them that you even HAVE needs!

Hence, the shocking aggression and blatant avoidance if you have pregnancy, or other medical issues. Anything to get away from having to help you, or support you in any way!

I'm not in an emotionally abusive partnership, but have seen shades of this in my own life. It hurts because I know, as you do, the other person thinks they have done nothing wrong. They will never 'see', because what is obvious to us, is a closed book to them; and they have no interest in changing that situation.

Keep trying with WA... it will be worth it. If you have anyone you can call on in RL, please do that too. Post here too if it helps brew

Lweji Portugal Fri 09-Aug-13 19:48:17

Keep trying and leave a message or e-mail WA?

I do think you need them, particularly if he withholds funds and you have no help or where to go.

I relate to the shield tactic. I may have gained it from dealing with ex and lots of things wash over me now, which didn't before.

Go Jeremy Broke. smile

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 10:37:32

Just been told he is going on a stag weekend abroad just after the birth of the new baby which I am not happy with as there will be drugs, clubs and the usual stuff which goes on. I am apparently being a controlling cow by objecting and he is going Am I? I just can't cope anymore!!

kalidanger Sat 10-Aug-13 11:00:58

Fantastic news!! Let him go and don't let him back!!

Get off his roller coaster thanks

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 11:06:43

He seems to be enjoying how upset he has made me! I have just told him I need some space for a few weeks but he won't leave! I have asked for some money to cover food bills etc but he apparently doesn't have any so has to stay. I'm calling bullshit on that but am in no position to even attempt to argue. I tried to sit down calmly and explain why I need some space and that this isn't working but he as usual said are you done and walked out without a word.
I hate him I really do. I've really fucked up by getting myself into this crazy situation.

wordyBird Sat 10-Aug-13 12:19:12

Depriving you of necessary money is another act of abuse. Financial abuse is illegal, as are all other forms of abuse.

So it is actually a police matter - the the law has changed to cover, among other things
"depriving victims of their financial independence"

You can talk to the police on 101. Keep trying WA when you get the chance. You can and will get out of this, Broke.

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 12:33:52

I'm too embarrassed by it all and he will deny he has done anything wrong as usual. He has already threatened to take our daughter as I'm crazy. He told me I am out of control and he is scared of me! This was after I was hysterical as he had walked out again over night and thrown things at me. I drove him to it apparently. Please feel to ignore all these posts I am just so glad I have an outlet to all this. A friend I spoke to for the briefest time a few weeks ago - I was out with another friend, first time in nine months - after I had a breakdown in the coffeeshop we were in told me to keep a diary. I wrote one page but then writerblock kicked in and I just couldn't think straight. It really helps to know that there are people out there as I feel so isolated and confused. Really what I am trying to say is thank you for listening and not judging too harshly at my very stupid decisions.

garlicagain Sat 10-Aug-13 13:19:02

Please stop slagging yourself off, Broke! You've got a partner to do that for you!

Do you honestly think it was stupid to love and trust your partner, to have children with him and to think he would care for you? When you told your partner you needed him, was it stupid to hope he'd give a shit? If that's stupid, the world's full of very happy stupid women wink The big difference between you and them is that they're not married to bullies. You couldn't have known what a horrible bully he is, early on. They hide it pretty well, otherwise no woman would stick around long enough for them to bully! The only dumb thing you've done is to keep expecting him to become the nice, considerate, thoughtful person he's not. You can be excused this, as it's because you're a nice person, but now it's time to understand.

He has already threatened to take our daughter as I'm crazy. You do realise this doesn't make any sense, don't you? Take her where?? It's all very well taking a child away to hurt its mother, but then you have to parent that child full-time. Doesn't sound like his cup of tea ... and why only one DC? If he's offering to take them off your hands, let him have both for a while!

Your friend was right. Taking notes will help you keep a line open to your common sense. You don't have to write a work of art, just a few blurts about what he said/did! Writing down your feelings does help, too, but some people find it hard to be honest with themselves while trying to survive an abusive relationship. You may be better off writing it here; it depends on you personally.

I think you could be underestimating your friends. I know it's difficult with 2½ children, but what are the chances one of them would have you to stay for a few weeks while you sort stuff out with Women's Aid? What about your family, too? I know you said they've washed their hands of you - but do you mean they just can't bear to watch you suffering, or are their judgy pants too tight for comfort? (That wouldn't be surprising, btw; most abuse targets were 'pre-conditioned' by bullying families.)

Get some head space, my love, and keep trying WA.

Is the house in both your names? Both DC are registered to him, yes?

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 13:34:03

Judgypants doesn't even come in to it. Basically been cut off as I have created this mess myself apparently so no support there - I have ruined my life by the bad decisions I made given all the opportunities I was given etc etc. DC2 is a baby, other one at school etc. Home is secure thank god! Don't mean to sound like a self pity party.

Urgh. There is no way he could parent full time =D I'd love to see that!

wordyBird Sat 10-Aug-13 13:41:59

He might deny wrongdoing, Broke, but denial won't save him: police and other agencies have heard it all before.

And if it's any comfort, the 'you're mad/ you ought to be sectioned / I want custody because you're unfit' tirade is a very common and hackneyed one, so common it seems almost universal among abusers. sad The agencies have heard all that before too.

So I hope that even if you feel cornered or exhausted at the moment, it gives a little comfort to know you're not alone, and you will be believed.

I think quite a few women feel embarrassed in this situation, even though it's completely unfounded. Maybe it's because you get used to taking responsibility for everything in your relationship, so this must be down to you too? (it's not). Also, very capable, strong, professional women find themselves trapped in this way. I know a couple personally: one was trapped overseas with no money and an abuser for a husband. When her family found out no-one called her on her judgment, they just wanted her safe and happy....

wordyBird Sat 10-Aug-13 13:43:42

X post, not so lucky with family then, I am sorry.
Believe me, you don't sound anything like a pity party...

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 13:52:24

This is going to sound even more ridiculous but I just keep thinking if he dropped all the bullshit and accepted what I have said and was honest with himself about how he really feels then we could start to communicate properly.

I don't think he is a bad person (sic) just emotionally shut down -well with me anyway. So I still home he will drop the crap and just be 'normal' whatever that is.

However there are certain things he has done which I can just forget and move on from no matter what he thinks.
My family are pretty harsh when it comes to the choices I've made as they are 'disappointed'.
Anyway my families judgmental crap isn't really my main concern as I am so used to it after all these years.

garlicagain Sat 10-Aug-13 14:21:52

My mistake for using the words "bad people". When a person deliberately hurts someone who loves them, frightens and insults them, and effectively imprisons them by denying them money - I would call that person bad. You don't have to. I judge him on his actions, but you're free to ... er, well, what?? Attempt a personality transplant by force of will?

Sounds like your family trained you to keep on trying, in the face of others' contempt. They did a good job sad

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 15:02:43

Did you? I didn't even register! My god my brain really isn't working today blush I just feel guilty for not pointing out he is a complete fuckwit in everything ie he does have a decent realtionship with the kids and does do housework. Although this is used against me as apparently I do nothing and he does everything! =D

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 15:03:04

I mean't isn't

wordyBird Sat 10-Aug-13 15:16:49

I just keep thinking if he dropped all the bullshit and accepted what I have said and was honest with himself about how he really feels then we could start to communicate properly

...the trouble is, you might already know how he really feels. It's possible, even likely, that he really feels how he says he does. There isn't anything deep down, and it isn't BS, but the truth as he sees it.

To be honest, how he acts is giving you the strongest possible clue how he feels (selfish, entitled, controlling, aggressive, for example).

The problem with normal, compassionate people like us, is that we think people like this must be in denial, or hiding something, or acting out because of something that happened in their past, or anything except that something is fundamentally dysfunctional within them. I tend to point to empathy and conscience failure. It doesn't mean someone is bad per se, but they are highly likely to think and act in ways we see as bad (just as garlic described).

Though it doesn't matter about causes or judgment calls in the end – the results are the same sad

wordyBird Sat 10-Aug-13 15:18:02

...let me clarify my words...ways we see as bad = bad !

Brokemyself Sat 10-Aug-13 15:34:23

Ouch. Yes that makes a lot of sense. I suppose that is what I am finding difficult to accept. maybe once I have come to terms with the fact he is not the lovely, caring and compassionate person he made himself out to be, the easier it will be to move on from how upset I feel about his treatment of me. He is very controlling and I only realised it recently when my best friends brand new partner commented to her after spending 15 minutes with us. I was mortified.

He does have a very shallow view on the world and I'm not saying that to be a bitch, he does interacts on a surface level and lacks authenticity. I have really only noticed this recently and was quite taken aback by a few incidents. Very flighty indeed.

I'm not by any means once for deep meaning conversations as a means of communication for everything but once in a while it would be nice not to keep everything on a superficial level. He is supposed to be my partner and father of my children ffs.

I know I need to keep repeating what you have just said in your last post as this should go a long way in reducing my self torment and why why why attitude which I continue to direct towards myself! It's exhausting and detracts my time with my DC's.

wordyBird Sat 10-Aug-13 19:40:12

Ah, I'm sorry to give an ouch...

It is pretty horrifying to consider that someone is as shallow as they appear - eg, that they really do think appearances matter, or that they matter more than love, or doing the work of caring about somebody. Or however it's manifesting in your relationship...

I think it's worse still when that person has presented themselves as caring and compassionate - and even believes they ARE caring and compassionate. That can leave you feeling very crazy indeed.

Brokemyself Sun 11-Aug-13 12:11:44

It's a bitter pill to swallow indeed. All the puzzle pieces are starting to fall in place. The messaging the ex who was getting married, meeting up for dinner with her not inviting me, then after our DD was born insisting they meet and getting angry with me for questioning his motives. This from someone who has lied about contact in the past. During the awful period around the d and c he was messaging and 'old friend' to meet for drinks. Even she said to him you have a girlfriend what are you doing. His reply was that it wasn't like that! Even she could see it. I don't know if they met but I know they spoke on the phone as some of the messages clearly say I've just called where are you. I was away over night for a work thing at the time, so who knows. He has always swore blind he would never cheat and claims he's never cheated but of course he'd say that! I'd be more than willing to believe him if he wasn't so unequivocally shit in so many ways and to blame 'we are just wired differently' actually just makes me want to vomit in disgust.

I'm not saying he has ever physically cheated...I have no proof...but he has betrayed my trust on so many levels and ignores this fact. I don't know how to repair any of these trust issues as as far as I've always been concerned, no trust, no relationship. When he does go out he doesn't stay late granted but he does most often come back drunk and then get quite nasty. He drinks about a bottle of wine a night. It's his way of relaxing he says.

I'm at the point where I feel so hopeless, I had an awful pregnancy with DC2 and was very ill and this one is not much better but again have no support at all. I'm told everyone else's wife/girlfriend just gets on with it and I'm a nightmare, he says he has no respect and doesn't value our relationship. He always backtracks on this and says he only says these things as I 'wind him up so much'. He doesn't realise that this stays in my head!

I just feel like giving up on it all and resigning myself to the fact I've made my bed and must now lie in it until one of us caves in and either walks away or god know what. I really do feel like such a weak whinging woman saying these things and that it could be a whole lot worse but my life is utter hell right now and I see no lit at the end of the tunnel.

I don't know what he wants out of this which I guess is half the problem.

garlicagain Sun 11-Aug-13 14:08:44

It's not weak to admit your life feels like hell. It's courageous honesty. I really feel for you, Broke, and do want to remind you how important it is to relish the lovely parts of your life - the DC's finest moments; the sunshine; stuff that makes you laugh, and so on. This is for your mental health, and the continued ability to stay honest.

To put a cool, clear distance on the relationship you've described this morning - he sounds pretty messed up, emotionally, and this isn't something you can fix in another adult. You seem to be describing a couple who are developing in different ways: growing apart, as they used to say. There's sadness in that, but no shame.

Lweji Portugal Sun 11-Aug-13 15:39:13

You and lots of other people want to believe the best in others.
You still want to believe the best about your H.

You are wrong in thinking that deep down he is like you and like decent people.

Do get as much help as you can.

Make your plan and let him go on his trip, as others suggested. Make sure the locks are changed when he comes back.

wordyBird Sun 11-Aug-13 17:38:46

I've made my bed and must lie on it

..is almost verbatim what my friend said when she was in an abusive relationship. She had become used to putting everyone else first, especially him. But I also think that being around him sucked the life and strength out of her. She just felt too exhausted to even think about what she felt, or needed.

You sound a little like that, Broke – as if the strength has been dragged out of you. If anyone is whinging and weak it is HIM, since he wants you to suffer your pregnancy issues without any support, and yet still take care of him. If you don't, 'you're a nightmare' or 'winding him up'.

Not doing what he wants, saying what he wants, and making him comfortable, that's what he thinks is a nightmare. That is whinging, for sure.

You can get out of this, but take it step by step. You're dealing with the first, very hard step - the realisation that all is not as you thought, and that it isn't your fault.

As soon as you start to detach from him you will start to gain some strength (remember to use your inner Jeremy Paxman....)

onefewernow Sun 11-Aug-13 19:51:27

Garlic and Bird you have been great on this thread.

Broke I did want to say, from personal experience of living with a man who was passive aggressive and irresponsible, that I notice that you have focused a great deal in how he should change and if only you found the "key" to getting him to see this, he would.

That is your biggest mistake- and I made it myself.

You cannot control him back.

Men like him take any opinion from women as an attempt to control- they think women should flatter or shut up, regardless of their espoused feminist views even.

You will never make him see, and he will always feels anger and discomfort with you for trying.

He could see for himself, but he doesn't want to.

There is the real key- he could but he doesn't want to.

I had a great Relate counsellor but he was an older man and didn't mess about. And very highly trained. He got my H to admit he was a manipulative controller quicker than you can slice bread, and got him to admit all kinds of crap he had strenuously denied to me for 20 years- in the sort of pointless rambling conversations you describe.

H was motivated by the realisation I was really likely to chuck him out.

I think your H is not in the right place for Relate, by the way. I'm just saying to illustrate that your H knows damn well what he is, and is doing, and he is crazy making you. He will never ever stop, in my view, just because you ask him to.

I also think his relationship with women generally, and his charm outside, is also typical and telling. Garlic and WB are right about that too.

Brokemyself Sun 11-Aug-13 20:27:51

onefew

I agree everyone here has been so lovely and helpful and the insight I have gained is invaluable.

I also think his relationship with women generally, and his charm outside, is also typical and telling. Garlic and WB are right about that too.

Sorry I may be being very think but would you mind elaborating on this point so I fully understand.

Wordy I'm channelling my inner Paxman as we speak! Yes this is definitely a start of sorts of doing things differently. I feel like veil has been lifted! I also feel like I have lost something but it's thrown me even more off balance to realise I may have got it all so wrong in thinking our relationship was a certain way. Amazing how you can fool so your and deny whats really happening because it's less painful. sad

Thank you everyone for being so kind and helpful and taking the time to reply in such depth to my pleas for help! I'm terrible at asking for help but just feel so desperate these days. I have scared myself wtih the things I have done!

Brokemyself Sun 11-Aug-13 20:31:43

onefew on the Relate note. I was blamed by the woman for everything, she excused all his behaviour and told me I must have been a madwoman during my pregnancy. She doesnt have children and made it clear she would never have them. She also said I was insecure as i probably felt like I hadnt regained by pregnancy weight. I was gobsmacked as that has never even entered my head until she said it. That is one thing thats never been an issue our relationship at least! Anyway there is more but its detracting for my main points. In a nutshell Relate made me feel even worse and compounded the fact it's all me.

Brokemyself Sun 11-Aug-13 20:38:23

Posted too soon! Everything you say about not being allowed an opinion really has hit home. He gets very angry when I have my own and refuses to agree on anything ever or even contemplate I have my own individual take on a situation.

I also think he doesnt in a million years think I would ever actually want him to go for good - he has spent time at friends/parents in the past. He leaves because he says he is so angry he doesnt know what he is capable of doing. He also claims he has never been like this in previous relationships and I am the cause of his anger.

I do hope one day with counselling and maturity he will grow into a decent caring human being but I'm scared it will be too late. In an ideal world I'd love us to be a family...

onefewernow Sun 11-Aug-13 21:26:44

Can you see you are still doing it? Ie relying on his to change. He can if he wants. He knows full well his behaviour isn't on. He doesn't change because he doesn't want to. You have all your eggs in the ' get him to change' basket.

My remarks about women- charming and wanting to be the centre of attention and wanting women to admire him, then behaving like an arse behind closed doors. He would be mortified if they heard him wouldn't he?

He doesn't treat you the san e way as he doesn't respect you. He thinks he doesn't need to as he has you already and you are going nowhere. All this coming and going he does is on his terms- he chooses to leave not you chucking him out. And if you try he will get difficult- because he is a controller.

Read that Lundy Bancroft book, and you will be amazed.

onefewernow Sun 11-Aug-13 21:29:54

He doesn't care how women feel, only about how they make him feel. Anyone with needs eg you, will get a raw deal. Women out there do not, as they are meeting his needs instead. Nobody can keep that up in a live-in relationship.

And you have No Evidence he is telling the truth about previous relationships.

onefewernow Sun 11-Aug-13 21:31:28

Same way. Excuse typos

onefewernow Sun 11-Aug-13 21:34:10

To be honest, he is a pig.

Unhelpful with the kids
Unresponsive to your needs
Comes and goes for a holiday when he gets angry
A liar
Keeps you short of money
Pr

onefewernow Sun 11-Aug-13 21:35:06

Probably chatting up OW

Threatening f to take the kids

Lovely.

And that relate woman was not good.

wordyBird Mon 12-Aug-13 10:12:45

onefewernow, thank you thanks

Broke your previous counsellor comes across as an untrained amateur. As if she had no idea what she was doing. Very bad indeed.
The next one will surely be better (check qualifications if you can)...

Sorry to say your P is unlikely to mature or change into anything different. Chances are he will just get older.sad

wordyBird Mon 12-Aug-13 10:31:25

...and PS! Hope you feel better this week. Keep asking for help, you will get there brew

Brokemyself Tue 13-Aug-13 20:54:43

Wordy

Yes in hindsight she was a complete arsehole. I'm still hoping DP and I can work together and get through this. He feels he has compromised everything for me and gets nothing in return. He may be right as I've grown to despise him so much recently. I'm really pissed off with him recently because of what I've realised and am quite cold probably. He won't let me explain my position on anything which is a pain in the arse more than anything as I just refuse to get upset after listening to what people have told me on here. So some good advice, thank you!

Maybe I am a horrible and rude but it didn't happen over night, that's for sure.

garlicagain Wed 14-Aug-13 00:46:12

Keep that Jeremy Paxman with you! Carry on posting, Broke, as much and as often as you want smile

garlicagain Wed 14-Aug-13 00:46:53

thanks from me, too, Onefewernow.

Brokemyself Sat 17-Aug-13 21:26:56

Feeling really down tonight.

Things have been better than ever this week. I was quite ill and maybe this was why he was being nice but anyway we had a huge row tonight as I feel he did something which undermines the entire week and all the progress we had made. It's one of this things we argues about the last time he walked out. I didn't deal with it too well and ended up telling him how disgusted I am hed be so disrespectful and that he is in fact abusive. He of course told me in crazy. He's been drinking so I am sort of staying away as it bound to end in him exploding if I keep insisting he understand how upset I am. He thinks he has done nothing wrong of course and rejects the notion he has behaved in anyway which is direspectful. I've been sobbing like a baby for the last hour. Hormones partly I'm sure. He did make dinner bit has been out all day so no help otherwise. Uggghh. Sorry to whinge but I feel completely ruined emotionally as it's a huge set back.
I feel ashamed I spilling everything online too as it all seems like such a sorry situation. LTB isn't a option right. It's the old adage too the when things are good they're great but when they're bad they are awful...
I really could do with some advice on how to manage this situation if anybody has any.
I've spoken to WA btw but just briefly.

Brokemyself Sat 17-Aug-13 21:28:04

Sorry for typos, stupid fat fingers!

garlicagain Sat 17-Aug-13 23:08:26

Oh, darling, PLEASE stop putting yourself down! Whenever you find yourself thinking of yourself as 'whingeing' and 'fat fingered' and 'pathetic' and all the rest it, just answer yourself right back. You are not whining, you're hurt and upset. It's OK to cry and feel sad. You're not fat-fingered, fgs, everyone makes typos. You're okay. Really, you're an okay person smile

I can tell you this is just a cycle of abuse, not a nursery rhyme about "when it's good, it's very very good, but when it's bad, it's horrid." It's a cycle and it is abusive. It hurts you by taking advantage of your love. I can tell you it's not possible to manage an abuser, unless you want to become more like sworn enemies than partners.

But you won't hear me, will you, because you're not ready to. No problem. Just keep posting - it will help clear your head.

Hope tomorrow turns out nice for you.

wordyBird Mon 19-Aug-13 19:16:25

I hope you're feeling better when you read this, Broke.

Garlic is right about the cycle of abuse. When you think it's all ok now, you're making progress, he 'gets it' and you're moving forward - boom. Back where you were. Very, very demoralising.

However, good for you for contacting WA - another big step forward.

If you're staying in the relationship at present, keep finding ways to increase your confidence and power. For example, build up a fund of money somehow, however small; find out your financial options if you do split up; email or call WA again; talk to someone in RL about how you feel, even if it's only your GP.

And tell yourself you're doing brilliantly.
Step by step..

Solari Mon 19-Aug-13 20:29:46

One thing I was told in the throes of an abusive relationship (and feeling very negative about myself), was to never say anything to myself in my head that I wouldn't say to my own daughter.

So things like "whinging" or "fat-fingered" go right out the window. And the person who told me that was absolutely right. When I started being kinder to myself in my head, and more supportive to myself , I found a lot more strength to deal with whatever was happening outside.

You are a person in your own right. What you think matters. What you feel matters. It doesn't make you any less of a person for feeling tired, worn-down, angry, resentful... or whatever you might be be feeling at any one time. Its just human.

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