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Need a younger person's perspective on this

(50 Posts)
Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 09:41:04

A bit of background DH and I have 3 DC, all grown up, we did have 4 but oldest died a few years ago, I mention that because it obviously affects family dynamics and makes us aware that our DC are very precious.

The 2 oldest remaining DC stay in close touch, but DD2 (mid twenties) is sometimes more emotionally distant. She lives about an hour and a half away from us. She has a very busy job with long hours and a fair amount of foreign travel, but also has a lot of time off. Normally we keep in touch via e mails and texts and brief phone calls, unless she has a problem, when we have more contact. We see her about once a month on average; if we go to her we always provide food or take her out for a meal as we know she's very busy.

DH and I are involved in a couple of family businesses but only on a part time basis, so we are quite flexible about seeing everyone. We have a lovely life with lots of travel, entertaining and a wide social circle, so not too needy when it comes to DC, given our family history (we hope)

The current issue is that we need to go and see DD2 in the next week or so, almost any day will do from our point of view. This is a business matter which will benefit the whole family and also specifically benefit her in a small way. This was agreed a few weeks ago but we need to tie up some loose ends. She is on holiday from work at the moment.

I texted her about 4 days ago to ask when would be a good time to visit - no answer. I called on her mobile yesterday - no answer. Normally if she sees she's missed a call she will ring back, but no response so far. I could e mail but normally don't get an answer if she's not at work.

I know she is very involved in her hobbies which she normally doesn't get a lot of time to pursue, so I cut her a lot of slack and never moan about lack of contact. I know someone would let us know if anything had happened to her.

What do you think I should do, should I turn into an old nag until I get a sensible reply? Or honestly do you think I should back off and wait for her to contact us? Am I just being a nuisance? I need someone of her sort of age to give me her perspective PLEASE .

JustinBsMum Fri 02-Aug-13 09:48:39

I would be an old nag on the pretext that you are worried something has happened to her as she hasn't replied. At this point you have no idea what the reasons are.

ALittleStranger Fri 02-Aug-13 09:48:50

Well it's not just an age thing, it's a lifestyle phase as well. As 26 year old MNetter with kids and a star chart on the fridge is hardly going to relate. But yes, it sounds normal not to respond. People are busy, exhausted, having fun etc. I frequently forget to respond to parents texts/calls and I see mine far less frequently than once a month. If they are persistent it reminds me to get in touch. If this is genuinely for her benefit (although does she agree?!) I think a bit of nagging is involved. But bear in mind people don't always want to get involved in family businesses, ventures, and silence might be her trying to strike out on her own.

BrokenBanana Fri 02-Aug-13 09:50:36

How old is she? When I was a late teen I was terrible at keeping in touch with family, now I'm mid 20s and a lot better.

If you've never had a conversation about her lack of effort then I think it could be a good idea to bring it up soon. Obviously you don't want to go in all guns blazing about it, but a firm yet gentle word about how you feel and how you'd like her to put effort in from her side might work. All depends on your DDs attitude and personality though.

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 10:07:14

I don't think age has anything to do with this....

I have a DD of similar age who is 2 hrs away, and I've spent 35 years as a DD myself 4 hrs away from my parents ( in the days before mobiles and emails.)

Both my DCs who are mid 20s live away and we have a similar pattern of contact to you- if we call they see a missed call and usually call us back that day or next day.

In your situation I'd be worried about no contact for 4 days.
I am sure that there is nothing to worry about, but we have recently had a similar 'no contact' scare, and decided we need to put some measures in place which don't exist for us.

Namely- the phone nos of someone they live with ( house shares) or work nos- we don't even have the exact extension in their large companies- in case of emergencies. maybe you don't need this or have it covered.

We also expect a return call within 48 hours or a quick text .

In your case, it's possible she is just busy as she is not at work. But I'd say you need a 'chat' about how you expect contact from her within a certain amount of time- even if it's just a ' I'm busy but will get back later.'

farthingwood Fri 02-Aug-13 10:07:57

Hi I am 29 and am a bit like your dd, I think if you get shirty with her she will be less inclined to call back because she will think she'll be told off.
Just let her be, when she has children of her own she will be more in touch but for now it sounds like you see her enough

bluestar2 Fri 02-Aug-13 10:15:48

I don't see any harm in telling her if she hasn't responded after a day or so. You are her parent and entitled to nag. Even if she can't talk just a brief text to say all ok call at weekend or whatever. I wouldn't have minded this at her age. Also you are doing something for her a little reminder wouldn't go amiss. I realise she is caught in the whirl wind of youth but at her age she isn't a child or a teenager and should know better.

artychick Fri 02-Aug-13 10:18:29

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your DC sad

We have something similar in our family after a tragedy a few years ago, and I know my mum worries if she can't get hold of any of us (within a reasonable timeframe). I understand this.

I think as this was already agreed a few weeks ago and it relates to a business matter, I would say it is not unreasonable to expect a response and that you should pursue it with her.

If you feel it's relevant, it might be worth saying when you do see her that you can sometimes feel concerned when you can't get hold of her, and that even just a quick text would ease your mind. I'm sure she'll understand.

Prozacbear Fri 02-Aug-13 10:21:11

TBH I am a bit like this and occasion it has frustrated my mum - also in my mid-twenties

But to give perspective ... I work all hours, have DS, DP, try to keep up a semblance of a social life. I don't see my mum once p/month and she is 1.5 hours away on the train. I genuinely do try to make an effort - have you tried her work email? At least you know that that gets checked on a daily basis - texts are easy to save til later.

Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 10:27:23

Thank you all for your help, mostly you have reinforced my own feelings that she is busy and cba to respond quickly.

The business matter is not a big deal, she will get some small benefit in a few months' time, but we are also going to give her a little money now as a thank you for her help. It will be more useful to us than to her at the moment iyswim.

I think I will contact her again later today if she doesn't respond soon.

Helltotheno Fri 02-Aug-13 10:31:50

Age or no age, I would say the following:
Firstly, you need to try someone else (e.g. work) to make sure she's ok. Secondly, it's a bit rude, no matter what the age, relationship, or context, for someone not to return repeated calls/texts from someone unless they're actively trying to avoid that person (in which case, see last point). I would point that out to her. I never had a wonderful relationship with my folks but that didn't mean not returning their calls!

Lastly, that special thing that will benefit her? Maybe just hold off in general.

QuintessentiallyOhDear Fri 02-Aug-13 10:36:44

Does she feel that you are "paying" for contact?

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 10:37:19

Have you taken on board what appears to be an imbalance between your care for her and her tardiness in replying to your calls etc?

You seem to be saying by your last post 'oh she's busy, that's fine'...

which lets her off the hook and doesn't deal with what you want, or what you'll do if this happens again.

Umlauf Fri 02-Aug-13 10:42:28

I'd be an old nag, she will understand I am sure. I once had the police turn up at my door because I'd lost my charger and not had my phone on for a few day, shortly after I moved to the other side of the country!! I wasn't mad at all, just worried for my mum.

Don't worry about being perceived as nagging, I am sure nobody, least of all your daughter, would see it that way.

CokeFan Fri 02-Aug-13 10:43:36

How do you respond when you do get hold of her? I ask because I went through a phase with my mum (after my dad died) when if I hadn't talked to her for a few days, if I did ring I got the "I could have been dead and buried" guilt trip. It made me less inclined to ring because I knew it would result in huffiness. Especially if I hadn't realised that she was waiting for me to ring because it was my "turn" and she was stewing about it. It's got better now because I do ring more often (and so does she) after we both backed off a bit and I told her just to ring me.

Maybe you could suggest a regular time to get in touch by phone or perhaps a 2 line email or a quick text instead?

CinnabarRed Fri 02-Aug-13 10:44:24

Actually, I think she'll being really rude.

I moved away from home at 18 and since then have never seen my DM as frequently as once per month (2 hours drive away), and would never ignore repeated attempts at contact.

If she doesn't want to do the business thing then she should have the guts to tell you, not just go incommunicado.

At that age (fairly recent but pre DC) I was not great at remembering to ring DM am still not great, but have 2.4 excuses now. But even I would have been able to drop a one-liner to say "not Thursday as I have a thing" or "not sure yet, will get back to you".

I saw on The Poke that someone texted her son after repeated non response to say "your dad and I want to give you some money - when are you available to talk?" and got an immediate response, to which she replied along the lines of "right, now I've got your attention ... by the way here's 50p".

ChippingInHopHopHop Fri 02-Aug-13 10:56:44

Dressingdown - I am very sorry to hear about your eldest xx

Mid 20's is old enough to stop acting like a brat. Frankly. You sound very reasonable and measured re contact with your DC (especially given the loss of your eldest child).

There is no excuse for her behaviour. It doesn't matter if she is busy, it doesn't matter if she isn't very fussed about the family business, it doesn't matter if she's faffing about with her hobby. You are her mother and you deserve far more respect. A single text back is not too much to ask.

You had loose plans to meet up and she knows that - she needs to give you a time that suits her (as you are being so flexible).

IMO and from this small snapshot alone, I would say you are actually enabling her bratty behaviour by being too understanding and too concerned about nagging/being posessive. Also, giving her money because she is doing this for the family business, to me, seems sad. She is your daughter, you don't need to 'pay' her to do her bit in the family - you really don't.

I say that as a 40 year old who is shit at keeping in touch with her Mum and is nagged to death about 'phoning more often' etc. I rarely instigate contact and I know I should. But I would never ignore my Mum's texts because, even without losing a sibling, I know she would worry.

She is being very selfish and unkind and it needs addressing.

ALittleStranger Fri 02-Aug-13 11:00:11

So, everyone under 30 has posted and said this is normal and it's not intended to be rude. Everyone offering an older perspective insists it's bratty. Yes, this is why mother-daughter relationships are difficult!

CinnabarRed Fri 02-Aug-13 11:02:17

Even in my 20s I would have replied by now. I really don't think it's an age thing,

CinnabarRed Fri 02-Aug-13 11:03:07

Unless you're thinking it's a generational thing?

Unlikely - the OP's other two children manage to keep in touch

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Fri 02-Aug-13 11:04:22

As a parent myself I would also be anxious but would imagine she wanted a proper break so is no contact' with everybody not just you. Is she even still in the country? Impulse trip away? Exciting absorbing new SO?

PenelopePitstops Fri 02-Aug-13 11:10:31

Similar age to your dd and similar busyness level. She is being unintentionally rude. I have done fhis to my parents a couple of times but in a forgetful / crazy busy manner.

Try a text later, saying you are not nagging but worried could do with knowing. It doesn't do her any harm to know you still worry, you are her mum after all!

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 11:21:38

whats' stopping you just being totally honest and saying that after x number of unanswered calls or texts, you get worried, and you'd appreciate a quick text to say she is okay?

It seems in some ways you are making it unnecessarily complicated when all she needs is a quick lesson in being thoughtful about other people instead of being selfish.

cloudskitchen Fri 02-Aug-13 11:28:30

Not really a young persons perspective at 42 but I would try and call again, especially if this is unusual behaviour. if still no answer or returned call I would text something like tried to call and text but no reply. getting little bit worried/concerned. all ok? have your other dc heard from her lately?

Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 11:38:09

Ok I made contact, didn't say much as the signal was bad, but actually she was already on the case, sorting out her part of the deal. I think she was just busy and hadn't got around to contacting me.

I think those posters who say we are enabling her to behave in a slightly rude way are right.We are very aware that parents can be unintenionally annoying so maybe we tend to back off too much instead of asking for more polite behaviour. I also agree that it is very difficult if someone berates you for not getting in touch and so I never complain when we do make contact.

DD2 has been in a bit of an off/on relationship for a couple of years which has been quite awkward for all concerned. When I asked for SO's phone number a while ago DD thought it was inappropriate. Now that things seem to have settled down between them and they are together, I'm going to ask again when I see her, so that I have emergency contact details when she's not at work.

She is a very private person and always has been since early childhood, but I know that she loves her family and needs us to be supportive and in the background cheering her on.

ALittleStranger Fri 02-Aug-13 11:41:45

Is she living with her SO? If not I can see that she would think it inappropriate for you to have his number. I would not want to give my parents a boyfriend's number if we weren't living together, especially if it had been on-off, and especially if I thought there was any risk they'd actually kill him if I didn't respond to texts.

Why as the on-off thing been awkward for you btw?

Presumably you know where she works so it's not like you have no other means of contacting her or someone who knows if she's been turning up etc?

Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 11:46:27

The off/on relationship was difficult for us because there were a lot of financial implications over their joint property and we had to do some bailing out, both financial and practical. That is all resolved now, the money involved has been paid back and we are just happy that things are (hopefully) on an even keel.

magimedi Fri 02-Aug-13 11:49:05

My DS (30's) lives in another country & has for 7 years. He always responds to missed calls, emails etc.

He is now married but when he had an SO I would not have expected their number unless they were living together.

cloudskitchen Fri 02-Aug-13 11:50:07

You sound like a lovely mummy x

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 11:51:15

What's an OS - anyone?

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 11:51:48

Or even an SO ? confused

Helpyourself Fri 02-Aug-13 11:52:43

A general point about contact- phones/ signals etc.
postcards! I have a stash of prestamped cards I scrawl a swift 'need to arrange x call ASAP love you lots' they normally arrive the following day.

magimedi Fri 02-Aug-13 11:53:41

SO - I assume is Significant Other.

mermaid101 Fri 02-Aug-13 12:20:22

I was always like this with my parents. It's very hard to explain. I just felt like I wanted that "distance" and to be free from them. (My mother is nowhere near as relaxed and reasonable as you sound though!). I often felt very panicky and smothered when she made attempts to contact me and as a result, often avoided responding to her, similar to your description of your DD's behavior.

One thing which made a difference to me was the "tone" of the text message/voice mail my mother would leave for me. If it was in any way terse, clipped or short, I would tend to put off responding as it would suggest I was in for some sort of "ear bashing" or sulks or general hassle. If It was very clear my mum was not in any sort of bad mood, I would get back to her quickly.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense in terms of your own situation. As I have already said, you don't sound like you are like my mother, but perhaps your daughter might feel this way?

I'm sorry for the loss of your child.

Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 13:49:31

Mermaid I think my daughter feels the way you describe. I try not to be smothering, but DD has had a tough time with the family bereavement and relationship problems. I suspect she knows that I worry about her, probably more than the other DC who are both married to lovely, supportive people.

Have things improved for you and your parents now? I would really love to move on to a more adult relationship with DD but sometimes I feel that we are stuck in a time warp with her being a stroppy teenager and me being a totally unreasonable dinosaur iyswim

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 13:55:58

OP- can you have a simple yet open conversation with your DD on this?

I know where you are coming from, so can you possibly just tell her that under the circumstances , you tend to worry a bit too much at times ( she must understand that), and although you don't mean to intrude into her life or be possessive in any way, it's really common courtesy ( maybe soften that a bit) to respond to a call/text on the same day unless there are REALLY pressing reasons why she can't.

It takes what- 20 secs to text a short message. You are not being unreasonable but her behaviour ( and your reluctance to call her to account) is very teenager-ish. You shouldn't need to walk on egg shells or make this into a big deal.

Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 14:09:47

Missbopeep She gets really upset and starts crying if we criticise even slightly. We have made so many allowances because of the difficult time she has had these last few years. Her SO is a lovely bloke, but he has a load of baggage and has put her through so much, on top of the bereavement, ( I don't mean that was his fault too.)

DD has a really demanding job, which she loves, and we feel that she has to hold so much together for that, we can't put anything else on her.

I sound as though I'm making too many excuses don't I? Maybe we need to toughen up a bit.

ALittleStranger Fri 02-Aug-13 14:10:27

I suspect she knows that I worry about her, probably more than the other DC who are both married to lovely, supportive people.

This really struck a chord with me. When I was with my ex, which had the appearance of being a lasting adult relationship, I remember my mum saying that she was relieved not to have to worry about me anymore as I was with someone so lovely to look after me! Well of course that felt great after we split up, and I was very aware of my mum being "worried" again. It's not a comfortable thing to be on the receiving end of, even if it's not conveyed in a smothering way. It brings with it an odd sense of failure, it's almost like your parent is saying, why aren't you married off like an adult, why am I still your next of kin, someone else should do this shit now? The ironic thing in my case is I take very little from my mother, nothing in practical terms and I don't expect much emotional support. I have a career and friends to deal with money and tears!

Bit of a ramble, but the 20s are an odd time for people now. There is this extended adolscence, especially for people in certain careers and areas. I think people this age are very aware that their lives don't look like their parents' did at their age; and for many reasons this makes us quite smug, but there are other respects where we worry it's failure. And I just think that changes the whole parent-child dynamic.

Plus she could just be hangover and/or shagging someone. Both of those things make me fail to return calls from my mum.

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 14:17:41

I do feel for you and I know how it's tempting to give kids some slack when they have so much else going on in their lives.

But she is not a teenager- she's 25 ish?

Have you ever thought that the tears etc are a teensy bit manipulative?
From the outside that's how it seems- and I don't mean she is faking the tears, but she does know they will be successful. Bit of underhand emotional blackmail going on here- and she's savvy enough to know your weak spots too and how you don't want to rock the boat with her.

Maybe follow the rules for being assertive- which are you talk about I when you are trying to explain how you feel, rather than blaming her.

So don't say 'you are a selfish girl who clearly can't be arsed to call us even though you know Im worried,'

But do say' I worry about you when you don't call back. I do admit my mind goes into overdrive, but it would help me if you would just send a quick text.'

If after establishing this, she ignores your efforts then I think you have to follow through with tracking her down at least once- through work or friends- and if it's an embarrassing lesson for her ( when everyone finds out she hasn't returned your calls) then so be it.

Dressingdown1 Fri 02-Aug-13 14:50:18

Alittlestranger and Missbopeep you are both right, I do feel that DD should by now be in an adult relationship, especially as that seems to be exactly what she herself wants. Also she is being manipulative with the tears. She has always cried easily and it is often effective.

I keep hoping that DD's love life will settle down and that we can establish a more equal parent/daughter relationship. It's been hard for her to have to come to us for loans and emotional support when things went wrong and I think she hates the feeling that she has been partly dependent on us.

Financially her position is now reasonably strong and the partnership with the SO appears to be more solid, fingers crossed, so now could be a good time to try to shift the dynamics of the relationship with us.

Thanks for your advice and understanding.

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 15:02:29

I've got that T shirt too of a 20 something DC splitting up and needing some financial support.
But you do need to try to keep your relationship separate from the other things going on in her life.
The problems our kids face over their lives will never go away altogether- which is something I am finding out all the time! But that doesn't mean we have to let them off the hook re. their behaviour towards us.

I hope you find a way through this.

JustinBsMum Fri 02-Aug-13 22:21:18

I think that the place you have in the family can make a big difference to your life and the age that possible crises occur also affects siblings very differently.
Perhaps being older when a tragedy happens in the family means it affects you less, not that you are less upset by it but that you have fewer years to live with the shadow of it.
It was the eldest whom everyone seemed to think had the hardest time in my childhood family, in fact the poor youngest had it worst imo, probably resulted in them getting much less attention, due to the problem which dominated the family, for the whole of their childhood, not just the later part as was the case for the eldest.
Just saying as I have strong views on this.

mermaid101 Sat 03-Aug-13 12:24:13

Drressingdown, things are much better with my family now. I'm in my mid thirties and live fairly close to my mother and see her regularly. (And keep in touch with her via texts and phone calls). I know she is much happier with this and I also know that this is the sort of relationship she wanted to have with me in my twenties.

This has been a gradual process. My father is now dead. I got on a lot better with him than I did with my mum. They divorced when I was in my mid twenties and my mum didn't deal with it very well (although she instigated it) This was a complicated situation, but I am happy to elaborate on it, if you feel it would be useful.

How is your daughter when you see her? Can you sense any tension/friction? One thing that jumped out to me from your original post was how busy your daughter appears to be. I have to confess that I used to really exaggerate how taxing/demanding my job was to my mum. Again, I'm not entirely sure why I did. It was almost unconscious. I think it might have been me trying to create a "get out" clause if you like.

Thanks for posting. It's been good for me to sort of examine my own behavior. Happy to answer any other questions.

hadababygirl Sat 03-Aug-13 13:20:37

I wish you were my Mum! sad

My dad makes a once a month phone call, we never have much to say to one another and he rarely visits. It broke my heart at university seeing other parens visiting, phoning, texting and emailing. I think she is very rude and I am over thirty but only just!

Dressingdown1 Sat 03-Aug-13 14:18:46

Mermaid I am glad to hear that things are much better with your Mum, but sorry that your Dad is dead. It's really tough for you, I still mourn my Dad who died just before my first DC was born.

There is definitely tension between me and DD when we first meet up. She is fine with her Dad, but it seems to take her an hour or so before she is ready to chat to me comfortably. Once we are over the initial awkwardness it is all fine and she is friendly and talkative.

I think that part of the problem is that when she was having a lot of grief with her SO, she talked to me for many hours on the phone and told me lots of details which maybe she now regrets. I let her lead when she discusses the relationship now and have always tried to be careful not to criticise the SO even when I felt very angry with him.

I think she is anxious for the relationship with her SO to work, she has made a lot of sacrifices for him and has a great deal invested in the relationship, both emotionally and financially. Interestingly she is happy for us to spend time alone with the SO and she knows for sure that I will give him the 3rd degree be quite forthright with him, in a polite way.

I think she is really busy a lot of the time at work, but possibly not quite as busy as she says. It probably is a convenient excuse sometimes.

Dressingdown1 Sat 03-Aug-13 14:42:44

I think I should add that we don't often see the SO. Normally DD comes to visit us while he is at work/otherwise engaged. I think we have only met him twice this year, but both times had a long chat with him. Maybe DD feels that if he talks to us we will be reassured that he is serious about making their relationship work.

I should also add that DD is no shrinking violet and is more than capable of standing up for herself and fighting her corner.

Missbopeep Sat 03-Aug-13 15:32:25

One thing keeps coming across here which unsettles me re. your daughter and you. It appears ( could be wrong) that you have some kind of goal for her re. this chap. You seem to want her 'settled'. Is this really your role?

I remember being 25 and living 300 miles from home. My parents knew very little about my then boyfriends and although they met one of them who I dated from 21-26, there was never any expectation or pressure from them that we'd end up married or whatever.

My DD is the same age as yours. She's been mucked about by a long term boyfriend , it's all over, and we had to lend her money to get out of the house they had, but I have no 'plans' for her to meet anyone else or be settled . It's up to her- she's a grown woman.

If your DD is not being very communicative, do you think she might think you are too involved in her relationships, but quite honestly are none of your business, no matter how much you care for her.

Dressingdown1 Sat 03-Aug-13 16:22:50

Yes Missbopeep I think you are right. After I re read my last two posts I came to the same conclusion! Funny how writing it down seems to make it clearer.

If I am totally honest, I do want her to be settled, mostly because I think that is what she really wants. In fact, I don't think this chap is ideal; I just want her to be happy, and they genuinely seem to love each other.

I have been too involved in the relationship in the past, because DD needed to talk about the problems and I was able to give her the support she needed. For reasons I don't want to go into, she can't confide much in her friends.

As long as I know that she is not being made miserable again by the SO, I don't need or want to know more. However, maybe she hasn't really taken that on board and feels that I am being too interfering.

Missbopeep Sat 03-Aug-13 16:51:56

As long as I know that she is not being made miserable again by the SO, I don't need or want to know more.

But if she IS being made miserable, it's her choice whether she talks to you about it isn't it. AND if she is being made miserable there is NOTHING you can or should do.

It's not your role to choose her boyfriends. In fact if she is 'normal' any criticism of him will only make her defend her choice - and him.

Why do you want to see her settled? She's only 25. That's pretty young these days to be 'settled', when 50% of young people have only been out of uni for 3-4 years and are finding their feet at work etc.

I can understand completely that you don't want her to be unhappy with a guy who messes her about. But even if she married or settled at 35 she would still not be out of the ordinary- and the average age now for a 1st baby is 31.

I think you have to seriously challenge your expectations and ask if they are the same as hers- or if you are being over protective and this urge to see her settled is your issue.

I get the impression that you keep a beady eye on this guy and are ready to step in if he doesn't pass muster in some way. Doesn't that seem a bit overbearing? Is that your role when she is an adult? And might it be why she seems to not communicate with you as much as you want her to?

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