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DP touching me intimately whilst he's awake and I'm asleep- not sure how I feel about it

(118 Posts)
afterahurricanecomesarainbow Fri 02-Aug-13 00:08:00

Have NCed. This is something that's started in the last couple of weeks, DP and I have been together 3 years but separated for a couple of months recently- unrelated to this. He is doing it consciously. He has stopped on the occasions I've asked him to but there have been times I've been half asleep and not really with it. I'm conscious we both want to make this work this time and I don't want to create a huge fuss over nothing if I'm just being very uptight. Not sure if I'm being funny about this or not.

runningonwillpower Fri 02-Aug-13 00:13:43

It can be a very nice way to wake up. I have to confess to being the waker upper on occasion.
'
If he stops when you ask I don't see that it is necessarily sinister.

catkind Fri 02-Aug-13 00:13:54

Yuck no, that's not right. You can't consent if you're not awake to do so.

Sarahplane Fri 02-Aug-13 00:15:03

You're not being funny about it, I wouldn't be happy about it either. That's not on. If you're not happy about it tell him. If he loves you he'll respect that.

afterahurricanecomesarainbow Fri 02-Aug-13 00:25:45

I guess what I don't like is I ask him to stop and he does it again a couple of days later. I've never done it to him. It freaks me out a little bit that he initiates it while I'm asleep IYSWIM.

Redflagcatcher Fri 02-Aug-13 00:27:27

If you don't feel comfortable with anything he should respect that. Whether you think you're being "uptight" or not is irrelevant. It's your body, if you don't like it it needs to stop.
To be honest I think unless you have pre consented to this the night before I think it is extremely disrespectful and abusive. I would always check the night before if my dp wanted to be woken with a bj (in his dreams).

I don't think you're being uptight at all. Tell him to stop doing it. The fact that you are asking here shows you are not comfortable with it. Imo, why would you be? It sounds grim.

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 00:31:27

What's uptight about not wanting to be touched without consent?

If he wants to make this work he's not going the right way about it.

I actually like being woken up like that, but my H has my full consent.
In fact I specifically told him. But he's never ever done it when I didn't want him to, and if I said stop he would stop immediately. If I asked him to stop he wouldn't try it again.

Stop means stop, no means no. That's that.

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 00:32:22

In fact I specifically told him.

I mean ask him.

Wow, he does it again a couple of days later? Even though you have told him you do not like it? So sorry, but this is not on at all.

perfectstorm Fri 02-Aug-13 01:45:46

If you've told him not to do it and he is still doing it, that isn't even doing it without obtaining consent. It's ignoring a "no". It's doing it despite full knowledge that there is no consent.

I would regard that as a red flag. It's one thing waking a partner up with caresses when both enjoy it. It's quite another to do it when told not to. The lack of basic respect would disturb me a lot.

arsenaltilidie Fri 02-Aug-13 02:27:08

* I would always check the night before if my dp wanted to be woken with a bj (in his dreams).*
hmm

Don't take it as I'm defending him, but have you actually made it clear to him you don't like it.
Giving him the benefit of doubt, is there a chance he could have interpreted it as you are not in the mood for that night?

He is sexually assaulting you. You have told him not to do it (though you shouldn't have to, it's the responsibility of the initiator to check that you consent first, not the sleeping person to withhold consent after) and he still does it, therefore he is sexually assaulting you.
You say you don't want to make a fuss if you 'want to make this work' but you can't make this work with someone who thinks he has a right to use your body sexually without your consent. This is not a small thing, it goes as deep as his fundamental views about you as less of a person than him and without having rights over your own body.
Yuk.

ravenAK Fri 02-Aug-13 02:57:30

Yes, it's sexual assault.

It's only OK in a relationship where one partner has given the other explicit permission to erm, 'wake them up' like this, & on the basis that the gropee can say any time '...actually...don't do that again, I've gone off it.' In which case the groper should then immediately pack it in.

You never agreed to this, you've asked him to stop. He's carried on doing it despite what you've said. It's sexual assault.

MajesticWhine Fri 02-Aug-13 09:18:37

Personally, I don't mind being woken up like this. But if you have firmly asked him to not do it, and then he does it again, then no, it's not ok.

Rooners Fri 02-Aug-13 09:23:01

Why did you separate? It sounds as if he has blamed you for being 'too uptight' about stuff?

IMO that translates into 'I am going to treat you as I wish and you are being petty if you complain or don't like it'

I would dump his ass and run very fast.

Lazyjaney Fri 02-Aug-13 09:29:57

You don't like it, he does, people differ in bedroom tastes as you can see from this thread - but if you want to stay together you have to negotiate an agreement. Telling him his fortune because a bunch of randoms on an Internet chat board tell you that you are in the right (or wrong) is no use here.

Rooners Fri 02-Aug-13 10:55:49

Hang on a minute. Just because he enjoys it, the fact that she Doesn't and has made this clear to him doesn't mean that they just need to 'negotiate' - if one party is not happy with a sexual behaviour then that means it is OFF LIMITS.

usualsuspect Fri 02-Aug-13 11:00:59

If you have told him you don't like it he should stop doing it.

Why is that so hard for some posters to understand?

OP doesn't want him to do it.

ICBINEG Fri 02-Aug-13 11:05:46

OP
You need to make it really clear that you aren't just saying "I dont want that right now" but that you are saying "I don't want that EVER".

If he does it even once more after that then it is assault.

It maybe that you are already past that point...I can't tell from what you have written.

FobblyWoof Fri 02-Aug-13 11:06:08

It's fine and perfectly acceptable if you both feel comfortable with it. But you don't so no, it's not ok. Make this clear to him and that he's not to do it again. If he's the type of arse that will then get huffy with you tell him that he can't push the point because you don't get turned on by it so it will never work (not that you should have to say this).

Me and dp wake each other in this way sometimes but we are both consenting and hsve discussed how we feel about it. Also, we both know that if the other one isn't in the moox we back off and usually fall asleep in minutes anyway

MrsHoarder Fri 02-Aug-13 11:12:31

Its not acceptable to do this to a partner who hasn't agreed to it beforehand. A person who is willing to touch another sexually without their consent and when they have said they don't enjoy it is a sexual abuser.

Maybe if you didn't say "I don't want that ever" then say that first, but this is a massive red flag even as it is.

OxfordBags Fri 02-Aug-13 12:13:47

A person cannot give consent when they are asleep. To touch someone intimately without prior consent given when awake is sexual assault, legally and morally. For him to keep doing it despite you telling him not to and that you do not like it is a deliberate, pre-mediatated, sustained pattern of sexual abuse.
He has commited a series of crimes against you that you could have him prosecuted for. This is the cold, hard truth, not hyperbole or hysteria.he has repeatedly sexually assaulted you, and you know that he knows you do not want him to do this - that it pretty fucking terrifying that he continues to do it. It means he knows he is a rapey bastard, likes it and couldn't give a shit about what you want or like, or your basic rights as a woman. I bet he's doing it to punish you for the separation, as all abuse is about power. What a freak.

It is actually very serious and a massive red flag. Any counsellor or police officer trained in dealing with abuse and/or sexual issues would be highly concerned for you.

You should concentrate on making the split final, not trying to get back with a man who continues to sexually abuse you. He will only get worse and worse.

Lazyjaney Fri 02-Aug-13 12:14:36

Just because he enjoys it, the fact that she Doesn't and has made this clear to him doesn't mean that they just need to 'negotiate' - if one party is not happy with a sexual behaviour then that means it is OFF LIMITS

Sure it's off limits - but that's not the issue. The issue is, if the other party is really not happy with that decision, then the relationship won't last.

And if the first party still wants the relationship to continue, there may have to be compromise, and that requires negotiation.

MrsHoarder Fri 02-Aug-13 12:57:54

Lazy: if she doesn't want something and he does the onus is on him to leave and find someone who does want it, not sexually assault her. If he does want to negotiate then he should do that, which would be fine. Not ignore her lack of consent.

Anniegetyourgun Fri 02-Aug-13 13:13:39

But why should you have to "create a big fuss over nothing"? Surely you just say "I do not like it when you do X, please do not do it again". And he doesn't do it again. No fuss required.

If it doesn't work like that, then you do have a problem, and it isn't that you are uptight.

yabyum Fri 02-Aug-13 15:29:57

He has stopped on the occasions I've asked him to but there have been times I've been half asleep and not really with it.

What happens on the times when you don't ask him to stop OP?

This is really, really serious. Touching someone sexually without their explicit consent is a crime. And all the women on here with partners who do this and who don't mind - ask yourselves what it says about your partners' attitudes to consent that they would risk touching an unconscious person sexually.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 15:42:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

maja00 Fri 02-Aug-13 15:45:31

I you have made it clear that you don't want him to do it ever, and he still does - then yes that is abusive and completely disrespectful of you.

I'd have a proper conversation with him about it when you are both awake and make clear it is not to happen again.

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 15:49:46

gootouchbadtouch My husband does this, its annoying sometimes, but since you are both trying to make it work, maybe let him at you once or twice?

What?! shock

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 15:51:33

"And all the women on here with partners who do this and who don't mind - ask yourselves what it says about your partners' attitudes to consent that they would risk touching an unconscious person sexually"

Are you implying my husband is some sort of rapist in waiting because he likes surprise sex with his own WIFE? Of course he doesn't worry about risking it! We are married!

Does your husband get you to sign your consent before?

RippingYarns Fri 02-Aug-13 15:55:46

GoodTouch you are a disgrace to your username

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 15:56:13

GoodTouch with the greatest respect you sound like you're broadcasting from 1890.

5madthings Fri 02-Aug-13 15:56:36

I don't mind this and some people are fine with it.

The op is not and has told him she is not OK with it but he continues to do it, so yes that is sexual assault.

HotCrossPun Fri 02-Aug-13 16:06:49

I hope Badtouch's goady comments aren't going to derail this thread.

OP has had lots of sensible, considered responses. I hope she reads them before deciding what to do.

<hands badtouch a razor for her hairy hands>

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:07:38

I think its strange that putting out for the man you are supposed to love is such a dated concept. Perhaps why divorce rates are what they are.

I understand "no means no" but, to say he is supposed to wake her up and ask first is at the very least unromantic.

OP says they are both trying to make an effort, and you lot start telling her she is a victim of abuse. My advice is that she could consider not rejecting him every time.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:09:42

Boring troll references? Yawn

HotCrossPun Fri 02-Aug-13 16:11:26

BadTouch In all seriousness I think you need to examine your own relationship. You have a very skewed concept of what is acceptable/normal in a loving partnership.

Your views about women who have been threatened with rape on twitter are also very worrying.

Does it not tell you something that your views are entirely in the minority here?

coppertop Fri 02-Aug-13 16:12:23

"I understand "no means no" but"

The word "but" should never follow the words "no means no".

5madthings Fri 02-Aug-13 16:12:48

'Putting out' fgs I think most people in a relationship have sex when they both want to. My partner like most men wouldn't want to have sex if I didn't want to/wasn't in the mood. Its hardly going to be enjoyable if one person is just 'putting out' as you put it.

The op isn't saying no to all sex, just no to being touched sexually when she is asleep as she isn't comfortable with that. Any decent man would respect her boundaries, not keep trying it on!

RippingYarns Fri 02-Aug-13 16:13:44

OP, you are asleep when he does this, in a state of unconsciousness.

you are in no way able to give consent

that, i'm sad to say, is assault

already having asked him NOT to do it, and he carries on? he very little respect for you or your opinion and much less for your body.

MrsHoarder Fri 02-Aug-13 16:13:48

Goodtouch you seem to like it. That's fine, and I presume your DH knows you like it. Now imagine there's something sexual you don't like. would you want your DH to do that when you are not in a position to stop him?

The OP needs to trust the man she sleeps besides if the relationship is to work. That requires him to not touch her when she has asked him not to. Its not like there is no other way to rekindle romance.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:14:48

"Your views about women who have been threatened with rape on twitter are also very worrying."

Which views are those? Care to copy and paste?

Hinting that I think rape threats are OK is not very fair without the proof is it? Can I ask you to get your last post removed?

yabyum Fri 02-Aug-13 16:15:27

Are you implying my husband is some sort of rapist in waiting because he likes surprise sex with his own WIFE? Of course he doesn't worry about risking it! We are married!

Actually, yes that is exactly what I'm saying.

Why not try saying 'No' once or twice? See what sort of response you get?

Your husband doesn't own your body. I can't believe that I am even having to say that.

yabyum Fri 02-Aug-13 16:17:39

He is your husband, not a stranger!

A husband has no more rights over your body than a stranger does.

Quite a few women would do well to remember that.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:20:01

Yabyum, we have been married for 10 years, of course I say "no" sometimes. How odd that you think he would hold me down and rape me if I told him to stop.. no wonder femenists get called man haters!

You have a depressing view of the world and Im sorry about that, but as you can see from this thread, being woken this way is pretty standard within plenty of marriages.

HotCrossPun Fri 02-Aug-13 16:21:58

Feel free to ask for my post to be deleted if you think it was inaccurate.

You spouted some nonsense about 'freedom of speech' as if people have a right to threaten to rape women and not be faced with any consequences.

I can't copy and paste on my phone, but if that wasn't you then I apologise.

RippingYarns Fri 02-Aug-13 16:22:42

and what yabyum said

HotCrossPun Fri 02-Aug-13 16:22:49

Your name is quite memorable, especially given your views.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:22:57

MrsHoarder: I suppose OPs husband thought that she meant "no, not tonight" so he was free to try again another day.

5madthings Fri 02-Aug-13 16:23:34

Yes its standard if you LIKE it, if someone doesn't like it and they say don't do that then any decent person would stop doing it. To continue doing after they have made it clear they don't like it is assault.

RippingYarns Fri 02-Aug-13 16:23:47

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:24:14

No, hotcrosspun, that absolutely was not me. But I can see it would help your troll spin on me

HotCrossPun Fri 02-Aug-13 16:24:54

Badtouch If you husband stops when you say no then what is your point??

The OP has said No and he has carried on doing what he likes with her body. That is the issue.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:25:21

Ive never reported anyone Ripping. I don't mind strangers calling me names. Although arsehat is a new one.

Stropzilla Fri 02-Aug-13 16:25:36

Dh might wake me like this, and if I said no, he'd stop. He WOULD probably try again at another date as quite often "no" can mean "not this time". If I really didn't want what he was doing, I'd approach him out of the bedroom, away from any sexual situations and say "Listen, the other day when you did xxx, I really hate that please can you not do it again?" he'd be horrified he'd done something I didn't like and not do it again. IMO it's about how you say things and when. Can you approach him like that? Then if he does it again you can quite reasonably have a bit of a go?

And ignore goodtouch, let him at you? FGS are you meant to just lie back and think of England??

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 16:26:18

GoodTouch if your H surprised you with something you didn't like, anal for example, is that still fine?

badguider Fri 02-Aug-13 16:28:39

Are you sure that you've said 'I do not like being touched when I'm asleep or sleepy, do not do it again'?
Or did you say 'no' in a way that could mean 'I don't fancy it right now'?

Within marriage I don't believe the same rules about needing explicit permission before you do anything at all apply, I think that within marriage it is reasonable for there be 'norms' and 'assumptions' based on past behaviour. But if one partner makes it clear that they do not like a behaviour and don't want it ever (rather than don't want it right at that moment) then that MUST be instantly and always respected.

If you have made it clear, or once you have made it clear then I would not give him another chance.

MrsHoarder Fri 02-Aug-13 16:29:40

Goodtouch that's where the suggestion that she talks to him and makes it very clear that she doesn't like it at all comes from. But any decent guy if on the first occasion of trying something new gets shot down should discuss it before repeating a surprise. Or even better just ask first (maybe halfway through a bottle of wine have a chat about fantasies and see what the response is).

Stropzilla Fri 02-Aug-13 16:30:06

And Goodtouch, surprise sex is great if that's something you've negotiated previously. If MY DH decided to have "surprise sex" with me, I'd not be too happy unless we'd said that was fine. DH loves being woken with a BJ and I'm happy to oblige. I wouldn't really like being suddenly entered (esp as dry would hurt!) and yes I'd call that rape.

yabyum Fri 02-Aug-13 16:31:41

being woken this way is pretty standard within plenty of marriages.

For me, touching an unconscious person sexually is a high risk behaviour. Doesn't matter who they are. Because you do NOT have their consent.

For me, being woken up by a finger in the cunt is no fun. It feels like a violation. And I really, truly believe that a lot of women who put up with this shit from their partners know this but are too scared to rock the boat.

lougle Fri 02-Aug-13 16:32:48

You need to say "I don't like being woken up like that and I don't want you ever to do it again." Then, if he continues, you know and he knows, that it is without consent.

EstelleGetty Fri 02-Aug-13 16:33:37

GoodTouch, calling posters who won't defend the partner's behaviour is not on. No consent = abuse. End of. If OP has told her DP she doesn't like it then she is not consenting.

I'm really sensitive about this because one of my earliest sexual experiences was falling asleep in bed with a boy, we'd been messing around a bit, I woke up and he was having full on sex with me. I was terrified and ashamed. If DH is touching me and I'm even half asleep because I am not in control of the situation. I don't give a fuck if someone feels 'rejected' because the person they want to have sex with is sleeping. People like that have problems which they need to deal with. They need to grow the fuck up.

EstelleGetty Fri 02-Aug-13 16:35:58

And badguider, in a criminal court, the same rules about consent would apply. Marital rape exists. Rape is rape.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 16:39:28

Agreed Mrs Hoarder and Stropzilla. I think some of the views expressed here have been really extreme, for example, that her husband has abused her. I assumed that was not the case.

Re. anal - hell no, but he wouldn't do that as its a no-go area in our marriage.

Yabyum - for you its a high risk behaviour, but in a loving marriage, like mine, I have no need to worry that my husband is a rapist. What an awful thing to assume of someone

badguider Fri 02-Aug-13 16:43:28

I don't disagree estelle about marital rape - but in this instance we're talking about some touching which stops when she says stop.. he just tries it again on a different occassion... bad behaviour, yes. but rape, no.

Stropzilla Fri 02-Aug-13 16:47:40

I think the difficulty here is we don't know that previously OP hasn't really enjoyed this, and encouraged it. For all we know, her OH could be assuming no means no at the moment. I still say she needs to approach him separately to the bedroom and specifying. It's really not rape although continuing after telling him no ever again would definitely be abuse.

"He's stopped on the occasions I've asked him to" leads me to believe there were occasions where she enjoyed it? I'm sorry if I've made a very wrong assumption.

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 16:54:46

GoodTouch thanks for the reply, but can you not see that for the OP
this behaviour of her husband's is "a no-go area" in her marriage.

Anniegetyourgun Fri 02-Aug-13 17:04:44

Er, Stropzilla, the other half of that sentence was "but there have been times I've been half asleep and not really with it". Doesn't that imply being too groggy to make a convincing refusal, rather than enjoyment?

Bant Fri 02-Aug-13 17:09:36

Twinkle - not from the OP, no. As Stropzilla points out, it's ambiguous. Sometimes in the past he may have started and she either enjoyed or went along with it. If she's asked him to never do it again and he does, that is, of course, completely wrong. But if she's just said 'not this morning' and he does it the next morning I don't see how that is wrong if she's enjoyed it before

it's like the poster on here who says she wakes her DH up with a BJ in the morning. By definition she can't ask his consent as he's asleep, so is that sexual assault? Asking if he wants one the night before takes the spontaneity out of it.

I think all this talk of sexual assault is a bit over the top as the OP doesn't say whether it's been okay in the past, the DP may think it's fine, and he stops when she says stop. He may be correctly assuming that sometimes she'll like it and wants to wake her up nicely. I've done it in the past and sometimes my DP wasn't in the mood so I stopped. Sometimes she was and we both enjoyed it. There was no talk of assault, just an advance turned down, no harm, no foul, no call for the inquisition.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 17:14:29

If that's the case Twinkle, then of course, but OP hasn't said that it is a no go area. When I wrote my first reply, I thought they had done it in the past.

I take your point though, I was advising someone to "just do it for him" when there is no way Id consider anal for my husband.

Still, all the rape-accusers are fucking nuts if you ask me. I cant understand why some people automatically assumed that he mustve understood and disregarded her feelings.

My immediate thought was that he was trying to, I dunno, create some closeness by being spontaneous in the name of saving their marriage. I feel completely out of synch with every other woman in the world right now.

Its all too easy to sit behind a screen telling someone that their husband is a disgusting sex pest with no respect for them. But this is someones LIFE!

My suggestion that she consider letting him carry on is considerably less risky than the suggestions she LTB etc.

Stropzilla Fri 02-Aug-13 17:16:28

Annie yes you're right, it does say that, however it doesn't say if it's been ok previously and that makes a difference IMO.

bestsonever Fri 02-Aug-13 17:19:17

You told him no at the time, then he tried again a couple of days later. Lets hope that he thought your no meant 'not now'. Rather than 'not ever', it's a concern that he did not check this out himself. Clear ambiguity by calmly telling him that it's not your thing and you never want to be woken up like that. Then if it continues, there is a far bigger issue regarding his respecting others boundaries.

Stropzilla Fri 02-Aug-13 17:19:21

ANYWAY it's all irrelevant now. She doesn't like it and regardless of if it's been a part of their sex life before, she's allowed to change her mind. If she has, she needs to be explicit. If she has been, and told him no more ever as I hate it then yes, abuse.

Stropzilla Fri 02-Aug-13 17:27:43

Sorry that was in reference to my last post, I meant if she's previously agreed, she's now withdrawing that consent and needs to communicate that properly. IF she's previously agreed.

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 17:33:19

Bant - that was by way of an analogy to explain a principle to Goodtouch, which is now sorted.

I agree the r/l situation is ambiguous insofar as we don't know if when the OP told him to stop, that he knew she meant stop for good.

However, the OP states that this behaviour has only started in the past couple of weeks, & that she's never done it to him, implying that this is not something that she okayed in the past.

If touching when asleep is 'a nogo' for the OP, then her P has to respect that.

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 18:37:27

GTBT are you aware that since the 1990's, men are no longer allowed by law to sexually assault women who also happen to be their wife ?

Just because you you have agreed certain practices with your husband, it doesn't mean that everyone else should automatically go along with it

Think carefully about what you are saying

Lucylloyd13 Fri 02-Aug-13 18:47:01

I do not think this is simple.
I love my husband and have no problem with being intimately touched when asleep. If i am in the mood I will do it to him too.

It just may be that this sort of play is not for you, you just have to decide whether or not it is a deal-breaker.

Or maybe you don’t have the ease of relationship that makes it okay, in which case it is about something more than this?

When you love someone, are at ease with yourself, and partner, being eased out of sleep by sexual arousal can be quite wonderful, a real gift.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 19:04:07

"are you aware that since the 1990's, men are no longer allowed by law to sexually assault women who also happen to be their wife ?"

I thought assault of any kind was always illegal.

OP will no doubt do what she wants. She was asking if she was being uptight about it, was told "this is abuse" and I gave my opinion, that he was probably just trying to be romantic.

I cant see how her husband did anything wrong (assuming she didn't tell him no, not ever) but the crazies on here have got him pegged as a dangerous man.

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:06:06

before the 1990's men were legally allowed to rape their wives

the concept of "marital rape" was on ethat did not exit on the statute books

it's a scary thought because 1) that is not very long ago at all 2) the idea is apparently still not filtering down to some people and I include you in that

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:06:31

*exist

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 19:13:08

Well, I suppose it depends on how you define rape. "rape" to me implies some degree of violence and/or force, which is of course illegal

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:17:01

Then you need to educate yourself

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 19:20:57

I assume you are saying that I am regularly raped by my husband?

In your opinion he is a dangerous man and should be locked up then?

I cant help thinking that is completely bonkers. Why should he have to wake me up to ask just incase I call the police? Am I misunderstanding the idea of surprise sex?

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:26:13

I didn't say that, please engage your brain. I am saying, as others have, that you are projecting the fact that it is ok in your relationship for your husband to make sexual overtures as you sleep

Some people do not welcome them, and if they make it clear they don't and their partner persists, then they are being assaulted

Is it such a difficult concept to understand, that it isn't actually all about you ?

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:27:44

GTBT, do you think rape always requires violence/excessive force ?

You can't think of any situations at all where that may not be the case ? You are quite limited in your thinking, aren't you ?

Rape means sexual intercourse without consent. If a woman says to her husband 'I don't want you to touch me sexually when I am asleep' and he does exactly that, then he has assaulted her. If he manages to penetrate her before she wakes up then he has raped her. It's very simple.
We all have acceptable limits in our sexual lives. When you have told a partner 'no' to one practice (to take your example of anal) and he intentionally does it when you are unable to consent (asleep) then that is a deliberate act of assault because it is acting sexually without consent.

ICBINEG Fri 02-Aug-13 19:29:45

GTBT wow...I mean..wow....seriously?

Consent is everything. If your DH knows you like being woken up that way then there is no problem.

If your DH knows you don't want to be woken up that way and carries on doing it then there is a massive problem as he is assaulting you.

Consent if everything.

And you, good touch, have obviously agreed with your husband that it is acceptable to wake you up with sexual contact. So it's not assault if he does it. But that's your boundary. Others are different to you. OP has made it clear she does not consent to this.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 19:35:02

Pretty sure I read upthread that my husband is a rapist for touching me whilst asleep. That was aimed at me.

Re. OP, like Ive said before I replied on the assumption that she has said no one day, so he tried again another day. OP hasn't said either way if she told him "not tonight" or "not ever"

Surely its more normal to assume he is a good guy trying to do the right thing by his wife/marriage then assume (like others) that he is deliberately going against her wishes for his own pleasure?? Why would he do that when he is trying to save his marriage?? There is a very good chance he was trying to make her happy!

Why wind her up and tell her the worst case scenario without knowing the facts? Sometimes I think half the people on her have been victims of assault, their views are so skewed towards bad intentions.

BelaLugosisShed Fri 02-Aug-13 19:35:07

My husband of 30 years has never, would never, deliberately touch me sexually while I was asleep - it just wouldn't occur to him to touch me without my concious consent, being touchy-feely whilst half asleep/dozing is a different matter as there is reciprocation ( even if it's just a change of position to allow easier access or a "don't - I'm tired" ).

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 19:39:24

Missed some posts, but they were all along the same lines, and yes, absolutely agree re consent. I am assuming he thought she was up for it another time.

Of course I would be livid if my husband back doored me without consent. But it doesn't sound like it in OPs case, she said she is aware they are both trying to make it work. He is going to be on his best behaiviour.. that's my take on it

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:41:51

GTBT it's great that you are looking for the good in people, fair play to you

but posting rape myths helps nobody

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 19:42:17

Bela, mine either - Ive never been woken up with PIV.. Gosh how uncomfortable. I mean, being groped awake.. you know, kissed and stroked and stuff.

Who would want to have sex with a comatose wife? Would be like a dead body.. a man would want some sort of response

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:48:11
MrsHoarder Fri 02-Aug-13 19:48:19

Gtbt you got it. And it started with being touched in my sleep after I asked him not to. Then "missing" during sex so he anally raped me in what had been consensual sex.

Not all people are in loving respecting relationships. That some of the abusive actions are acceptable within your relationship by consent doesn't make your relationship abusive. For example a financially controlling partner might insist on doing all the accounts. My dh also insists on doing all the accounts, but isn't financially abusive because he then talks me through them and we share actual control of the money.

Basically if I'd noticed the red flags of him not being bothered about consent I could have escaped much earlier and missed a lot of pain.

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 19:51:27

...and this is why projecting your own functional relationship is not helpful at all

because basically you are saying "if it's ok for me, it should be ok for you"

but for some people, they don't have that agreement, and it really isn't ok

pretending everyone is able to give informed consent is short sighted, ego centric and victim-blaming

BelaLugosisShed Fri 02-Aug-13 19:54:48

I didn't mention Piv confused , I assumed OP meant he was attempting to penetrate her with his fingers.

If my DH tried "groping" me awake he'd likely get an elbow to the throat , he wouldn't enjoy me doing it to him either, we're both grumpy when tired.
Early morning foreplay for me starts with a cup of tea wink

lissieloo Fri 02-Aug-13 20:02:50

Well, I've read the first few pages and am completely unsurprised by the goady rape-myth pushing.

OP, this IS sexual assault. Its a no, unless you say yes, unless you have specified that it's always a yes. And even then you can change your mind at any time. I hope you're ok.

Evening
First of all, sorry to hear this OP.
Wanted to post link to the We Believe You Rape Myths page
Thanks

lissieloo Fri 02-Aug-13 20:42:57

Thank you Olivia. Everyone should read that link, really. Rape myths do so much damage.

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 20:48:47

you reading GTBT ?

yabyum Fri 02-Aug-13 20:52:07

To me, this is a particularly pernicious sexual practice. It assumes consent, thereby putting the onus on the unconscious person to 'come to' in time to say 'yes' or 'no'. Even if you've done it a million times before, each time your partner touches you sexually while you're unconscious, he/she is making a huge assumption. And ime, many women put up with this AGAINST their will for fear if being thought 'uptight'.

AnyFucker Fri 02-Aug-13 20:53:04

Indeed, YY

lissieloo Fri 02-Aug-13 20:59:35

yabyum, yes to all that. We are conditioned to accept it, as if it's not assault or rape if you are married. And I see the same posters spouting this apologist shite over and over again.

GoodTouchBadTouch Fri 02-Aug-13 21:18:37

Yup Ill read it in a while. Must find mixing blade to my bread machine, but Ive clicked on the link.

Do not agree with your view yabyum, and that wont change from reading these myths

perfectstorm Fri 02-Aug-13 21:25:08

God, this thread is as depressing as the one where people were arguing a victim of serious domestic violence, whose husband had tracked her down to a holiday park as soon as he got out of jail, deserved to be thrown out when he beat her to a pulp, because she was also to blame.

IF a relationship is one of established trust, and both parties know being awoken with caresses is welcome, then fine. In the same way, if BDSM is okay within a relationship, responsibly enjoyed and genuinely consensual, then their business and nobody else's. But to say it's the woman's job to make it clear she doesn't want to be raped when unconscious, is as crazy as saying women should explain in advance if they don't want to be tied to the bed with handcuffs, whipped with a riding crop, and hot wax poured on their tits. In both cases, it's not sexual behaviour you can indulge in without utter certainty that the other party is on board. f my DH did EITHER I would report him to the fucking police. It wouldn't happen, because he sees me as a human being and not a blow up doll, and therefore consent matters to him as well as me.

Consent, consent, consent. OP has said NO. He still does it. "Surprise" sex, when unwelcome, is rape. That's a simple legal fact. Sex with an unconscious person is rape; that applies whether you're married to them or they're some random person you find in an upstairs bedroom at a party. If you have told your spouse you enjoy being woken by their dick, knock yourself out with being woken that way. Just don't whine that women who find the idea abhorrent are being unreasonable, because actually, what they're objecting to is classified as a serious crime. Which rather indicates that you're the outlier/extreme end of the spectrum here, and not them.

Sex is meant to be fun and equal. This sounds the complete opposite in every single way.

5madthings Fri 02-Aug-13 21:26:37

I can see that for a lot of people its not acceptable. By surely it can be a something mutually agreed? There is no coersion with myself and my partner and its something we both do to each other tho not very often as with five kids sleep is way more important than sex

But its more a case of one of us will snuggle up to the other, stroke/caress etc and if the other wants to reciprocate they do, if not they move away/say no thanks and go back to sleep. Neither of us 'put up' with anything we are unhappy with or are conditioned to accept anything. I agree that can and probably does happen in some relationships but this certainly the caw that it can be mutually OK and enjoyable. Obviously it is not in the ops case and he needs to stop, by continuing he is assaulting her.

EstelleGetty Fri 02-Aug-13 21:34:07

Thank you Olivia.

Mutual respect and understanding is how you 'save a marriage.' Not groping someone in their sleep when they've asked you not to.

perfectstorm Fri 02-Aug-13 21:34:46

5madthings that sounds lovely, because it IS consensual. That's the whole point - something within established trust, that both parties enjoy, and where if the least sign that it's unwelcome would mean it ended, is clearly fine. I appreciate that what you describe is also more affectionate touching when sleepy which, if both parties are on board, can them lead to more. That's IMO rather different to intimate touching of genital areas when the other person is still asleep - personally I would find that crossed my own line, though again, if both are on board, no problem at all. Felching, anal, BDSM, snowballing, golden showers - I honestly dgaf how people enjoy themselves, as long as both parties truly do, and it's fully consensual.

The worrying part here is that a woman who does not enjoy it and has made that clear is being told by some posters that it's okay for her partner to keep right on doing it, and even that she should just put out, lie back and think of England. He shouldn't need to worry about her consent at all.

I find that mind-blowing.

Viviennemary Fri 02-Aug-13 21:37:10

I think this thread is quite depressing too. It does seem there is a vast difference between what people think is acceptable in marriage and that's fair enough. But it isn't right that the OP has said please do not do this I don't like it and I don't want you to do it and her partner keeps on. That's wrong.

5madthings Fri 02-Aug-13 21:40:40

Yes its mutually agreed and I wouldn't even have to say no, as I would respond or not and he understands by body language/reactions. Which is how it is in a relationship? I don't have to ask/dp doesn't have to ask, we can both tell without doing so if the other is interested.

And I too wouldn't want to wake up with fingers in my genitals, that's too much. I would respond to a caress/touch and we would carry on. Or I wouldn't and dp would stop.

And I agree she has said no, she doesn't like it and yet he still keeps trying it on and that is wrong. As is the whole lay back and think of england/'putting it out' for someone!! Sersly dp would NOT want to have sex if I wasn't up for it, that is normal ismnt it?!

5madthings Fri 02-Aug-13 21:41:33

Seriously dp would NOT want to have sex if I wasn't up for it...

LucyTheLittlestLioness Fri 02-Aug-13 21:44:53

Completely agree with yabyum.

I was in a relationship for years where I put up with exactly this kind of crap, and it seems like on some level it 'isn't that bad', but it is bad and it can really fuck up your head. Please don't put up with it OP.

lissieloo Fri 02-Aug-13 21:50:38

GTBT, what part of consent do you not understand? <Boggle>

Perfectstorm, I agree with everything you've said.

5mad, as Perfect said, that does sound lovely because you have given your express consent. There's a big difference though, the OP has withdrawn consent. His refusal to accept that is sexual assault. He clearly has no respect for her boundaries.

confuddledDOTcom Fri 02-Aug-13 22:14:51

It is possible for it to not be a bad thing, my husband will curl up behind me, stroke and kiss my arm/ neck first. Usually I will move back towards him and he knows that I'm happy for him to continue, often I don't fully wake up but I enjoy it - if he does it at night he hasn't figured out that I know how to get him to do it. I do it to him too, but we've both stopped when it's not been right.

But if someone doesn't want it then it's not on. In a loving relationship it should be ok to say you don't want to or you're not in the mood and if the other person doesn't accept that then you need to question your relationship.

karinmaria Fri 02-Aug-13 22:16:41

Another who is finding this thread depressing.

Being caressed quite intimately (not fingers inside me) and woken up for sex is something which has the green light in my marriage. I've let my DH know I like it. There are things either one doesn't like so obviously we don't do these things.

However I'd NEVER assume this might be ok for someone else.

OP if you've repeatedly said 'no' when he starts or have been too sleepy or unable to stop him then there is something very wrong. Tell him not to do it ever again in the cold light of day and if he does, RUN.

Stropzilla Sat 03-Aug-13 10:37:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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