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Is this worth pursuing?

(223 Posts)
crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 00:18:20

I'm sorry - this is long. I'll try to be succinct. I just need some perspective.

A few months ago I started seeing someone having just ended a long term relationship. We both agreed it was casual at the beginning, meeting just for sex. I would go to his place (I was staying on a friends sofa bed at the time) and go home that night. He didn't want a relationship and neither did I. That was fine, for a while. I started to have some feelings but I kept them in check as I didn't want to get too close.

Things started to change a little, in that I started staying overnight at his invitation and we would spend time talking about our lives rather than just having sex.

Around the time I moved into my own place I decided to take a risk and ask him on a real date. He said he was comfortable with that but jokingly said he might freak out if I asked him to move in or something. I said he didn't need to worry about that at this point (for goodness sake!). We were both nervous on the date but it was lovely.

A few dates and weeks later he turned up at my place late one night telling me how much he liked being with me and how he hadn't slept with anyone else since we met. I didn't really respond much because he was a bit drunk at the time and I was a bit caught off guard and didn't know how to take it. However we kept seeing each other, having a really good time and started alternating staying at his place and mine, going on proper dates and not always having sex, just being quietly comfortable in each others company. We didn't talk about that night again.

I've met his brother who he lives with, and he's met my best friends who I live with. We have socialised with both. We haven't met any other of our groups of friends. He has told his work mates about me and I have told mine about him (our companies are linked). He's agreed to come to a work function with me, no hesitation.

We now spend practically every weekend together, it's grown to three nights a week if we are both in town. He takes me to nice places and seems proud to be seen with me. I feel the same way.

I started to feel I needed to know if we were heading somewhere. Unfortunately I decided to raise this at 4am when we had both been out drinking. I thought I asked him if he saw me as a potential girlfriend when or if that time came, he thought I was asking if he saw me as his girlfriend right now. He said no. He said he is enjoying what we have and how we are getting to know each other now and he wants to see where things go. He got quite upset, talking about how when he moves in with someone it'll be the person he wants to marry. I asked who had even mentioned moving in? He really jumped the gun but as I say, we had been drinking. Next morning we talked a little more. I cleared up the misunderstanding about my question the night before but made it clear I don't want to get hurt again, waiting around for something that might never happen (as in my last relationship). He said he understood but he wants to take things slow, by which I took to mean he felt I was rushing him. He had to leave for work then, he was concerned I was still a bit upset, gave me a hug, kissed me several times and left.

We are affectionate in public and he holds my hand and is a gentleman in general. He has passed the waitress test with flying colours and is generous and kind to all. He has a great relationship with his family. However, he has told me how he has ended relationships in the past because he realised when they started talking about moving in together that he didn't want to marry them, so he called them off. He did live with one partner and from what I gather it ended badly, which may be where his fear of commitment stems from, I don't know.

So my question is, dear mumsnetters, am I wasting my time or should I give him some time to see if it goes anywhere? I don't want to be a mug but I don't want to let something potentially good slip through my fingers.

Apologies for the epic length of this post!


LemonPeculiarJones Mon 29-Jul-13 00:27:53

He's done this before, on several occasions (run from past relationships). Probably in each case he gradually led them to feel and believe that he cared deeply for them. Then, buggered off, scared/reluctant/not emotionally engaged enough.

I would tell him that you want to be in a proper relationship with him, that to all extents and purposes you have been gf and bf for some time anyway, but that you aren't prepared to be messed about. That being single is preferable to being locked in some emotional limbo he controls. Then back off and see what happens.

I think he sounds like a time waster. One experience of having your hopes dashed doesn't make everyone into a serial commitment-phobe. He wants all the perks without giving anything real.

Sorry sad

You sound really nice, crapartist, and you're far too good for him. He's a twat. If he doesn't want to give some commitment to you after this reasonable amount of time, he should fuck off.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 11:12:21

I was afraid I would hear this. I really don't want to stop seeing him as he has been so good for me and I feel like I can just be myself with him. But I don't want to waste more years of my life waiting and waiting.

Dahlen Mon 29-Jul-13 11:30:14

If you're spending most weekends together and 3 nights a week, that's not casual FWB sex, that's a relationship. Whether it's a serious exclusive one is irrelevant. Arguing semantics over whether you are a girlfriend or not is a distraction from what's really going on.

You're only a few months down the line. It's perfectly ok for him to feel that talking about moving in or marriage is too soon. But the way he's reacted to you wanting to know if your relationship has the potential to get serious is way, way OTT. It's like if you'd asked him if he'd like fish and chips for tea and he's interpreted that as if you'd asked him to go halves on buying the chip shop. His reaction either stems from an irrational fear of commitment (in which case you're wasting your time) or a level of emotional immaturity (not great either, although has the potential to improve). It should be possible for grown ups to talk about hypothetical futures without it being interpreted as pressure for wanting that hypothetical future right now.

I wouldn't be writing it off because of his unwillingness to commit right now because it is still very early days. My prerequisite for continuing with this relationship would be whether he is able to discuss his feelings about commitment fully and openly with you.

Sorry, love sad

Maybe you should give him some time (6 months?) but in that time build up your social life/support network, so that if you do decide to call it a day you won't be left with a void. And who knows? Maybe in that time you'll meet someone else who values you enough to offer commitment.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 11:40:39

Thank you.

He did over react, thats for sure. He seemed genuinely upset, like he was afraid even talking about it was going to ruin what we have built so far. But it is such early days, perhaps i was wrong to raise it so soon.

I have always been careful to keep my own life, see my friends, not be needy (I don't need his approval), never blow off plans for him and I intend to keep it that way. But you're right, we need to be able to communicate and if he can't even manage that then I will have to end it.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 11:47:40

Also, do I have any right to start making demands about not having my time wasted when we started out the way we did? Yes he said what he said about liking me but it wasnt exactly clear and we never discussed our "relationship" beyond agreeing that it wasn't just sex anymore.

Dahlen Mon 29-Jul-13 11:51:14

Yes of course you do. Relationships are fluid and change all the time, and you have the right - as does he - to change your mind at any time.

Jan45 Mon 29-Jul-13 11:53:28

Looks like he doesn't believe in living together but prefers marriage, perhaps he just needs a bit longer then and will be asking your hand in marriage in the future! I would wait and see if I was you, things sound great so why would you give that up, don't - time will tell if it's meant to be.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 12:15:40

Time will tell, but I fear I will get too invested if I allow too much time. At the risk of scaring him off I'm going to have to be very blunt about what I need from him now. So what do I want from him now? To be able to have discussions without him freaking out, to ask for honesty about how he feels. What else?

LessMissAbs Mon 29-Jul-13 12:24:40

I also think he sounds like a timewaster. Not calling you his girlfriend when you spend 3 nights a week together and have met his brother and he your friends is just ridiculous!

You must really like him and I think he sounds like a fool. I suspect his talk of marriage is a red herring.

tbh if you really want to know what he feels about you, all you need to do is stop the contact and leave him to do the chasing. If he asks you why, just tell him he's upsetting you because he isn't making you feel secure enough in the relationship. If he then runs away and you never hear from him again (which I think he will) then you have your answer.

My guess would be is that he is a person who for whatever reasons in his personality, struggles with forming and maintaining close social bonds with others. I suspect he will flit from one woman to another without any real emotional attachment as soon as one relationship becomes too much mental effort to sustain.

He reminds me of another man I knew a long time ago. He was very good looking then but is now in his fifties and still behaving the same, still single, and spends his time on internet dating sites and going to classes, claiming he is looking for a girlfriend and then finding excuses not to have one.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 12:38:53

I don't want to make excuses but I dont think he is a flitter. He is 38 and has had 3 relationships. I think he really does want to get married, but marriage and having children scares him. When he looks after his little niece he jokes that he just wants to keep her alive!

Oh I don't know, perhaps I am making excuses. He's just so lovely otherwise. He is sweet but not over bearing. He loves his parents and his siblings. He has a good job and he shares his good fortune with them. He has friends going back to when he was at school that he has gotten teary about (only for a second mind wink) when talking about what they mean to him.

Oh ffs I'm doing my own head in now.

Dahlen Mon 29-Jul-13 12:52:39

Are you capable of letting your head rule your heart? Being too emotionally invested is only a problem if it starts affecting your judgment. Obviously it's going to hurt a lot more if you're deeply in love and then reach the conclusion that the relationship is going nowhere so decide to break it off. But is that going to mean your life feels as though it's over? If it does, that's another issue altogether, but really you should have plenty of other things to support you through until you feel better.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with setting a timescale on things - as long as you recognise it for what it is (an ultimatum) it makes it clear to both of you where you stand. You must be prepared to walk away if you don't get a commitment at the end of that timeframe though. As for what's a reasonable length of time - well, how long is a piece of string? Could be 6 months, could be a 2 years. Anything more than that though and I'd say you're on a hiding to nothing.

brunette123 Mon 29-Jul-13 12:53:59

if it were me in your situation, I would want to be called "his girlfriend" and it be acknowledged by us and the world at large. It would make be unhappy if it was a sort of de facto bf/gf thing but he wouldn't call it that.
Secondly it all seems to be on his terms.
Thirdly completely understand you are doing your own head in - I have done that before over men.
He is 38 - do you REALLY think he wants marriage and children or is that what you want to believe? If you genuinely do believe that, maybe give yourself a time limit say 6/9 months and if nothing has changed get out of the relationship but that is extremely difficult to do - certainly I have tried to give myself time limits etc and have ended up farting around wasting time when in my gut/head and heart knew the bloke would never change/never commit whatever.
I really feel for you but I do understand. I bet it isn't doing his head in. He may be genuinely upset but may be that is because he does like what he has with you and doesn't want to lose it BUT that does not mean he will ever want more.
HTH - just a different perspective - am better at giving advice than following it myself.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 13:08:19

All of your advice is appreciated and helpful. It makes me see things from many angles to decide what I am willing to put up with.

From the failure of my last relationship I learned not to give up other areas of my life for a man, and to be aware that the things I want are important too. I do worry there is a danger I am projecting these issues onto him too early, but its clear he does have commitment issues of his own.

I don't want to give up yet so I will try to let my head rule instead of my heart and be honest about what I want. Its scary though, if I or he walks away there will be more pain and I've already had enough of that this last year.

mrsgboring Mon 29-Jul-13 13:43:10

From what you say he does sound lovely but his reluctance to engage with you on the subject of commitment.

I don't feel that qualified to comment since I've been married from the year dot, but if I were you I'd keep being as honest and as rational with him as you can about the fact you want to have a real relationship with him. And also be as honest and as rational as you can with yourself about the fact you want a real relationship with him. Perhaps give yourself a deadline by which you should be feeling more sure of where you stand.

Personally I wouldn't do something like suddenly stop contacting him as pp suggested. If he does struggle with commitment the best way you can help him is behave as straightforwardly as you can. But if, after a reasonable length of time he seems to be beyond help you will have to walk away.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 13:51:57

Agreed. I need to think about how long that time limit should be. I don't want to play games, we are not teenagers but it so difficult to remain level headed and unafraid of scaring them off when you really like them.

justgivemeareason Mon 29-Jul-13 13:53:29

You could take the risk and call his bluff. Say you want all or nothing and walk away. You will soon know how he feels. It is unreasonable of him to not class you as his girlfriend. You should be insulted by this. If he is genuine he will at least commit at a basic boyfriend/girlfriend level.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:02:12

I don't see how my being insulted will help the situation. But I do see where you are coming from. It may well come to that.

Val007 Mon 29-Jul-13 14:17:55

You are wasting your time. You allowed this guy to have fun with you from day one and you agree to do this for free. Please, think about it - how is he going to respect you well enough to even consider making you his wife? To him you are just a cheap plaything, and when he is done and ready to have a family, he will look for a woman who is respectable (hard to get) and does not sleep around. Sad, but true!

DelayedActionMouseMaker Mon 29-Jul-13 14:21:50

What he is basically saying is that he sees women in two camps, those he wants to fuck and those he wants to marry. I personally would have a problem being one of the first and feeling like I had to 'play the right game' to become the second.
You are already talking about holding back your own feelings until he decides if its you he wants. It shouldn't be like that. Surely, if you have already passed the FWB stage yourself you should be looking for an equal footing with the person you are in a relationship with, rather than being 'on trial' to see if you fit the bill at some undisclosed date in the future.
I'd personally be running for the hills as fast as my legs could carry me. I've been there more than once in my early 20's and it never ends well.
This guys sounds like he is about 18, I was shocked when you said he was 38!

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:22:50

Wow Val, really? Thanks for your helpful insight, because I hadn't already thought of that as being part of the problem hmm

scrazy Mon 29-Jul-13 14:24:47

You will be taking a huge risk if you give him an ultimatum, I'm afraid. I would bet that he lets you walk away, then gets in touch a few weeks down the line, you will think he wants things to change but I suspect you will end up in the same situation.

1.5 years later and it could end up in an on off thing. OK I'm projecting as it is exactly the situation I am in.

I tend to look elsewhere and hope that one day I meet someone and I can blow this one off, but it hasn't happened so far. Good luck with it all and let us know what happens.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:24:57

Delayed has dealt with that particular angle in a much more sensitive way. Thank you Delayed, it is something I have also thought about it.

Val007 Mon 29-Jul-13 14:27:47

OP, I have absolutely no intetion to hurt you. I am only saying this because I have been there, done that and learnt my lesson. Honestly, this is how a lot of men think and until we women realise this, feminism or not, we shall always ask ourselves 'why', why was he with me for 10 years and then he married the girl he only met 3 months ago?

scrazy Mon 29-Jul-13 14:28:27

I kind of agree with Val, men who have choices, and I'm assuming this one does, tend to put women in two categories, one who are worth going the extra mile for and ones who aren't.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:30:16

And he just hasn't met one of the ones worth going the extra mile for in his 38 years do you think?

BitOutOfPractice Mon 29-Jul-13 14:30:39

Hmmmmm...I'm not sure what to think.

TBH I can see his POV. Surely a relationship is already there and will develop natuarally as time progresses without being analysed and defined

Equally I can see your POV too. You want to know where you stand. I think a lot of women feel like this

Earlier this year I was on a dating site and it used to drive me mad that lots of men wanted a "relationship" after 2 dates! I wanted to go out, have fun, see how it went, get to know each other... Eventually I met a man who was confident enough to see that's how I felt and feel the same as well. Lo and behold, 3 months later, we've just "found ourselves"in a relationship. It just happened, evolved.

I think that's what's happening with you two, just that you're earlier to put that label on it.

I wish you lots of luck. You sound lovely. So does he. I hope you can find the right path for both of you

BitOutOfPractice Mon 29-Jul-13 14:32:33

Sorry Val but I think that's a load of crap. Not everyone is so hung up on sex as to judge a persons worth on it. This isn't the 50s

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:33:38

By the way, he doesn't have that many choices, he ain't no God (and I ain't no Goddess either!) and I believe him when he said he hadn't and didn't want to sleep with anyone but me. Maybe I'm confusing that with feelings.

scrazy Mon 29-Jul-13 14:34:00

Yes, he did, the one who he lived with or had a ltr that ended badly. He will be waiting to meet someone like her again, but having his fun in the meantime, without committing.

The one I'm stuck in this situation with is much older than 38. I'm not meaning to sound cruel as I've explained, I feel your pain.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:35:41

Thank you BitOut. You sould lovely too and I'm grateful for everyone's advice.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:37:05

Scrazy its fine, I did ask for advice smile

Val007 Mon 29-Jul-13 14:37:41

Some men are, many more than are admitting to us women anyway. And OP has found one of them. Then there is the other part of the puzzle - men marry when they are ready. I guess it is a combination of those two in OP's situation. Better look for a man who is ready and pining for a seriuos relationship now, not some time in the future, and approach him in a respectable manner by letting him court her as a gentleman should a lady. Not saying it should take ages, but going through the motions sets the tone for the relationship from then on.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:39:52

So should I cut my losses now Val? You see no hope at all in this?

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:40:53

He has been bloody courting me, thats the most annoying thing! I finally felt just a little bit special.

BitOutOfPractice Mon 29-Jul-13 14:42:31

Crikey Val you'll be telling us to read The Rules next!!

Look, you're either on the same page or you're not. Nothing to do with ladies and gentlemen fgs.

OP It sounds to me like you are on the same page, just that he's taking a little longer to read to the bottomof it than you!

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 14:44:03

I hope you are right BitOut smile

BitOutOfPractice Mon 29-Jul-13 14:45:45

I'm always right crap wink

I could write a bloody book about the adventures I've had this year with men - not all sexual Val before you decide I'm not a "lady"!

Val007 Mon 29-Jul-13 14:49:42

OP, I really feel for you, as I have been through similar. All I know now is that if a man is serious about it, he will not waste a second in showing you this, telling you this, cementing your relationship. He will try to make sure you feel and know you are unavailable to any other man in this world, because you are his. From what you have described... he hasn't even put a label on you (girlfriend), he hasn't marked his territory. Not typical for a man, who is serious about your future together....

Honestly, if you want to know if you stand a chance, stop contact and put a price on yourself - the more expensive, the better. Tell him you want a serious relationship and you need to clear the spot for a serious guy, not a timewaster like him. See how he reacts. If he pays your price - good! If not... then you know. (I believe a poster before me suggested the same). There will be no other way if knowing for sure, especially as he tells you in your face the opposite of what you want to hear. It doesn't make sense, does it?

cahemo Mon 29-Jul-13 14:50:32

Hi, well as someone who is going through hell in a marriage at the moment, feel free to take my words with a pinch of salt, but let me say them anyway.

You're having a good time together, he is kind to you and you back to him, you enjoy seeing each other, are not embroiled in any financial/emotional messes.

Why not just enjoy that? As long as you're being honest and treating each other with respect and nobody's being abused, I don't see the harm.

Just have a good time; if it's meant to be forever it will be: don't push it. Maybe he's been hurt and doesn't want to rush into things. Give the gay a break (meant in a nice way).

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 14:53:46

How old are you both? Do you have time to spare re, kids etc if you want any?

That makes a difference imo.

Talking from personal experience- my DH had 3 long term relationships before he met me- partly lived with one woman while at uni. He ended all those relationships because he wasn't ready to settle down- though now he says it was partly ( with hindsight) that they weren't 'the one'.

We dated for 3 years before he asked me to marry him. I was fully aware of his past relationships and all around us, other couples who were our mutual friends were pairing off and committing.

It was a LDR so there was no simple solution to move in together as one or other of us would have had to give up our job and friends etc on a rather paper-thin sense of commitment.

So what did I do? I told him I was sick of waiting for him to make up whether we were going forward, and started dating other men and not seeing him so much.

Within 3 months he was on the proverbial bended knee. That's now almost 30 years ago.

Maybe you can take something from this and apply it to yourself?

BitOutOfPractice Mon 29-Jul-13 14:54:06

Val. Seriously. This isn't a game to ensnare a husband.

He isn't a dog, marking his territory.

Not all men are the same (just like all women are)

And, IME, ultimatums never end well - for either side

Val007 Mon 29-Jul-13 14:54:37


I am just sharing what I have concluded from my personal experience (with the help of a few books, of course). But hey, they were absolutely right for me. I appreciate there may be other scenarios, but... if OP stood a chance, she would not be here asking. He would not be there avoiding. They simply started off on the wrong foot. And sometimes, lots of times, it is irreversible. The man himself talks openly about women, marriage and so on. Not to OP, though. She deserves a man who will grab her and not let her go or have doubts. He will show her that he will give her anything she wants. Because he is her man.

cahemo Mon 29-Jul-13 14:57:25

See I don't get this 'mark his territory stuff'-if a guy does that too quickly, then there's a chance he may be abusive.

He doesn't seem to see you as a possession to be controlled.

And so what if it doesn't lead anywhere long-term? Not every relationship is meant to go the distance- doesn't make them any less enjoyable or fulfilling.

BitOutOfPractice Mon 29-Jul-13 14:57:46

My eyes just nearly rolledout of my head then Val grin

Val007 Mon 29-Jul-13 15:00:50

Women take feminsm and freedom to extremes and men definitely profit from that! Free sex and no responsibility, wow! She needs this ultimatum for herself, because she wants a family and children in the near future, not some wanker who is showing her a good time, but will tell her adios when he is ready to settle with a 'virgin' and it may be too late for OP to have kids by then. We are women, we should respect ourselves, otherwise men will not. Simple as that and even if we lived in 3013, it will be still the same - men think 'the mother of my children and my wife should be a dignified woman', they think 'I don't want to share my wife'. Anyway, my words may sound extreme, but I urge you to consider the essence of them. Do not take them so literally.

Walkacrossthesand Mon 29-Jul-13 15:01:04

I've been in a similar situation, I adopted the cahemo approach of enjoying it for what it was, but withdrew after 3 years (non cohabiting) when I felt I was investing in a future which wasn't on offer. I find it bizarre, these men who can talk in the abstract of a future with commitment and children, while in a relationship that they won't commit to. How does he see your involvement ending, I wonder, and what will the 'marriage' relationship look like for him? IME, men who want a woman but are afraid of commitment, will step up to the plate when faced with losing the woman - but you have to be prepared to let him go if he doesn't.

cahemo Mon 29-Jul-13 15:03:28

And how exactly is he not respecting her? He is honest, kind and they enjoy each other's company.

Is he abusing her? No. Is he sleeping with other women? Apparently not.

Honest to goodness, if a man came on here saying that his girlfriend wouldn't commit this instant we'd be accusing him of being a control freak.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:04:47

I don't want to do the ultimatum thing. It didn't work with my ex because he felt I was forcing him. He is very aware of the issues of my last relationship, and how I had wanted to marry that guy, so maybe that is why he is a bit scared I'll rush him up the aisle. We are both in our 30s, so have a bit of baggage, which is why I'm reluctant to just dump and run.

Cahemo you make a very good point...

cahemo Mon 29-Jul-13 15:07:22

Aye, well I am biased.grin The idea of not living with a guy but only seeing him because I wanted to and he me and having a good time without any major drama is appealing.

Don't knock it. Of course if you want a baby and have not much time left, then you've got to get out now. If not, just enjoy the time.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:08:04

Sorry, lots of cross posts, I can't keep up!

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 15:09:22

Did you read my post?

I didn't give an ultimatum.

You don't have to give an ultimatum, you just have to change your behaviour. You cannot change him or force his hand.

But if you keep doing the same things you cannot expect different outcomes. Why should you?

So don't give an ultimatum- just be less available and stop putting all your eggs in one basket.

You are behaving as you are based on your fear of being alone, or childless, or both.

Be proactive instead of reacting to his behaviour.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:09:42

I'm only 32, but I don't want to waste my best years iyswim!

scrazy Mon 29-Jul-13 15:10:52

Mine started out casual for a couple of years then the 'courting' started, funnily enough so kind of back to front. So men do appear to go out on a limb but back off when it comes to commitment.

If a man genuinely cares about you he will want to make you happy, and not shy away from calling you his girlfriend. Think about it the other way round. If you have feelings for this man and it sounds like you do, would you pussy foot around? I know I wouldn't.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:11:22

Missbopeep I see what you are saying. I do try not to put all my eggs in one basket.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:13:04

But I am pussy footing around. When he came to my place and told me what he was feeling I did not reciprocate.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:13:33

And I do have feelings for him.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:14:37

crapartist Its only been a few months, just relax and enjoy him…don't look for problems when there aren't any. Don't put yourself under pressure to sort it out. I reckon if you give it more time, it will resolve itself….its only been months, its early days. It would be a big red flag if he was jumping forward too quickly. He is still getting to know you, you can't expect him to start making life long commitments based on a few months. If you corner him, or pressurise him to commit to you, then what is that commitment worth ? I wouldn't blame him for backing away from someone who gives him ultimatums/demands at this stage.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:17:02

Neither would I recall! But I won't backtrack now, that would be a bit pathetic.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:18:28

what do you mean ?

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:19:59

I mean I can't take back what I said about girlfriend status and pretend I didn't mean it. Sorry, am on phone and not being very clear.

Twirlyhot Mon 29-Jul-13 15:20:06

I'd leave him to it and move on.

You could hang around for another 18 months and tread on eggshells so he doesn't feel 'pressured' but it's not going to do you any good in the long run.

There are some men who keep women at arms length, stringing them along (sometimes for years) with their 'trouble with committment' then up meeting someone, moving in with them, proposing and marrying within a year.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:21:07

Im sorry, I've misunderstood your post. I get what you mean now about ultimatums.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:22:12

He did say he was enjoying what you had now, and enjoying getting to know you and wanted to see where things go...

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:23:44

I want to trust that he means that recall but its hard. I've been hurt before.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 15:25:54

It's only been a few months. If you were saying it had been a year or two, or three, then different story. Don't you think you are being unrealistic to expect commitment so soon?

And unless you are dating other men or at least considering yourself available, the your eggs are all in one basket.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:26:10

If I was you crapartist I would just carry on with him, he sounds nice, but also keep your options open. If someone else comes along, you are at liberty to date them too.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:27:29

Don't allow past relationships to spoil this one, and don't have expectations, because he doesn't know what they are, so is unaware if he doesn't meet them.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:28:13

Yes I suppose they are. I guess I meant not making him my entire world.

I don't think it was too soon, things were happening and I wanted to know where I stood. But from his perspective yeah, its clearly too soon.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:28:58

Thats true recall.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 15:29:04

If you don't want the uncertainty that almost always goes with new relationships, then you shouldn't be in one. You can never ever have 100% certainty that something is going to be permanent- not even if you are married. Trust develops over a long period of time. You can't demand it.

If you are worried about being left, your behaviour will show that- and negative thoughts usually result in negative reactions and outcomes.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:30:20

agree with missbopeep

Twirlyhot Mon 29-Jul-13 15:30:28

How long was the relationship you came out of?

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:30:58

Also true Missbopeep. I am listening to all your good advice.

bestsonever Mon 29-Jul-13 15:31:36

Perhaps could try turning it around to find out where you stand. Something like "as I'm not your girlfriend, I assume that means I don't need to be exclusive to you" see how he reacts to that. If it would not bother him who else you dated then you are not his GF and you know where you stand, but if he insists on exclusivity then you are already his GF.
Thing is he may not have slept with anyone else so far, but that does not mean he won't do in future if he sees himself as single still.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:31:45

6 years Twirly

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:32:55

even when making new friends, I tend to back off a bit if they become clingy and too much too soon, it is unattractive, and spoils things. The thing that initially attracted you to them becomes overshadowed.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 15:33:56

smile and you too recall.

OP have some advice from someone old enough to be your mum.....I was hurt badly 3-4 times before I eventually got married including a broken engagement. The men who were most keen were those who thought I didn't give a damn- either because I genuinely didn't, or because I deserved an Oscar for implying I didn't.

Intensity, clinging, possessiveness sends most men running for the hills.

Back off and you have far more chance of getting what you want.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:34:51

Just give him the blow job of his life - usually get commitment with them grin

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:35:53

Well I feel a bit bruised still by what was said so that won't be difficult right now Missbopeep smile

Eglute Mon 29-Jul-13 15:37:01

I have wasted 2.5 years on someone very similar.. I think that kind of guys will never be ready for a proper relationship. And why would they? They get all benefits without taking any resposnibility..

That is my personal advice. I have just ended this relationship..

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:38:07

I'm sorry Eglute sad

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 29-Jul-13 15:38:21

I'd leave this one alone.

The fact is you do want to be his girlfriend.

There is nothing wrong, unreasonable or shameful in that.

He is a 38 year old man and had a ridiculous reaction to the mere suggestion of it.

The fact is you will always be treading on eggshells now and why on earth should you?

O.P have a good think about what you want. If it's marriage and kids, this chances are that this bloke isn't the one for you. 32 isn't old, but it's too old to be pissing your life away with someone who want give you what you want.

Finally, people might be saying that Val sounds like she comes from the 1950's, but I don't think just being meek and saying nothing about what you really want is being particularly enlightened either.

I wouldn't do time limits, walking away after 6 months is likely to be harder then walking away now and you'll feel worse about putting so much time into a relationship that didn't work out.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:38:27

missbopeep I so agree. When I was first going out with my husband ( of 19 years ) I acted like I was so not bothered, but inside I was nervous as hell. Some nights I would make myself unavailable, only to be sat at home missing him like mad. I know you aren't supposed to play games, but this one works the best in my experience. Its like when you sell a car or a kitten, if you say you have someone else interested, they become really keen and stop messing about grin

Twirlyhot Mon 29-Jul-13 15:38:43

That's a good chunk of time. I'd be wary of putting too much into this relationship. If you're seeing him every weekend, are you spending much time with friends? Meeting new people? Having good sex is always worthwhile, but there are lots of other people out there and the person you choose for no strings sex isn't necessarily the same person you'd choose for a relationship. And are you sure that you want another relationship right now?

GoshAnneGorilla Mon 29-Jul-13 15:40:47

Game playing and blow jobs? It's 2013, shouldn't we be expecting more then this?

Twirlyhot Mon 29-Jul-13 15:41:02

I am rather surprised by all the people suggesting it was expecting too much too soon for him to use the word 'girlfriend'! I'm glad you posted GoshAnnGorilla.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:41:23

The blow job was just a joke...

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 15:42:18

and it was 1993 when I was playing games…Im a gimmer

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:42:37

I didn't think i did, it just crept up on me.

I see my friends all the time, I live with two and see other friends regularly. I have not let my personal life go to shit. I have hobbies and pastimes.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:43:55

Recall I knew you were kidding wink

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 15:43:59

I agree too recall
Ours was a LDR and after 2.5 years I was sick of either him or me having to drive almost 100 miles on a Friday night.

[Note to OP 2.5 years- not a few months, and I was late 20s]

So I started saying I was busy on X weekend, and sometimes I was ( with friends) and other times I was staring into my cup of tea wishing like hell I was with him and why 'play games'.

Then I did meet someone else, playing sport, so I had a genuine reason not to see him every weekend and it drove him mad.

We were engaged and married 12 weeks later.

Twirlyhot Mon 29-Jul-13 15:49:09


It's not a bad thing to get attached to someone you know! You haven't done anything wrong! I find his response odd and disproportionate. It's not like you asked him to move in!

As for 'game playing', I've been married for years. More than 10 but not 19 yet. I've never bothered with that. It sounds utterly pointless. Basic communication shouldn't be difficult. Playing games sounds like a lot of effort for something that should be fun!

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:50:58

Thats how I feel too Twirly

Twirlyhot Mon 29-Jul-13 15:52:50

Regardless of the differences of opinion, being busy and seeing less of him seems to be a common thread. And maybe it will have him realising he wants more commitment. Or maybe you'll meet someone else and not care. Either way is a win for you?

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 15:56:24

Yes, I think you're right twirly. I'm going to make some more plans with my friends. Not game playing, just keeping busy.

recall Mon 29-Jul-13 16:00:08

Good idea crapartist

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 16:00:39

Game playing is not a good term. But we all need to deploy tactics and basic psychology in all relationships whether at work , home or with friends.

You wouldn't tell your boss he was crap, unless you wanted a reprimand or dismissal.

Withholding the true extent of your feelings with a man who is clearly running scared is not playing games really- it's protecting your interests .

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 16:14:24

That makes sense Missbopeep. I won't ask for any more until he starts giving. If he does. And if he doesn't then I guess I'll deal with it.

Walkacrossthesand Mon 29-Jul-13 16:15:49

Another phrase is 'not reaching out your hand further than you can pull it back' - I think some commitment phobes get a lot of comfort from knowing that their BF/GF is more 'attached' than they are, and I think that's unfair! So being less 'available' is a reasonable approach IMO.

NameThatTuna Mon 29-Jul-13 16:22:28

Bloody hell OP if I wasn't living with him, i'd think you were talking about my DP smile

This sounds so similar to how we started off 6 years ago. DP was 36 when I met him. Previous LTR with live in partner, bad ending, breaking off relationships with other women as soon as commitment was mentioned.

I had not long come out of a LTR myself, so I wasn't looking for anything serious. We started off very casual, pretty much as your situation is now. After a few months I started feeling just like you. Even had the conversation (drunk) with him, which had the same outcome confused

This went on for longer than I'd like to admit actually. I had the same advice as you're getting from some posters i.e move on. It took me a while though. Apart from the lack of label as 'girlfriend', we had so much fun (outside the bedroom Val grin, it wasn't as easy as believing him to be an arsehole. He wasn't.

Though it got to a point where it became painful, him not wanting a committed relationship. By that time I was ready for one. I started to detach emotionally, not being so available and became open to the idea that there were other men just as nice as him out there, but who wanted a relationship.

I had to cut contact for my own sanity in the end. I told him exactly why too.

I went on a few dates after that with someone else. About 3 months after I ended the 'relationship' (although we spoke on the phone occasionally during that time) he turned up on my doorstep.

To cut a long (sorry!) story short, we have been living together for 3 years and planning our wedding. I didn't just drop everything for him though, he had to prove it by being committed. That took a couple of months before I decided to give him the chance. We haven't looked back since.

So after my bloody long post, my advice is to just go with the flow, for now. Keep an open mind to other relationships and don't be so available to him. It's still early days. If he wants to make a commitment, he will. But if not, you won't be as hurt as you would be putting all your eggs in one basket.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 16:26:41

Tuna, what a tale! you give me hope and more good advice. Thank you thanks

NameThatTuna Mon 29-Jul-13 16:31:13

Can I just say OP, a work colleague has been going through something very similar too, although they're older. She confides in me a lot because of my relationship.

Hers has been going on for more years than mine. He recently declared his love and commitment blah blah, only after she met and started dating someone else.

Difference being, she has blown him off grin. He took too long to make up his bloody mind, she has met such a lovely man. He hasn't got a patch on the new one. The new one is what she deserves. She's a lovely lady smile

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 16:33:23

Good for her!

DelayedActionMouseMaker Mon 29-Jul-13 16:34:34

I think the most important thing in ANY relationship is not to give your whole self over to anyone. Have him in your life, but have your life too. Don't make him a central character in a play that he may have no intention of starring in.
Be who you are, don't apologise for needing to know that he is somewhere on the same page. You are at the stage where you want to open your heart and your life to him further and you'd like some reassurance beforehand because you have experience of being hurt. This is a perfectly natural, normal and acceptable need.
His reaction to your discussion is due to one of two things IMO. 1 he has been hurt too, his feelings for you are more than he expected and he is scared to open up to you, or 2. He likes what's happening now, he enjoys your company and the sex but is still on the look out for 'the one'. You are an 'until then' relationship.
It is possible to be solicitous, kind, enjoying of another's company and sex without being in, or having any likelihood of being in love with the person you are doing all this with. If he has got to 38 and is not in a committed relationship with a family already then it is POSSIBLE (and I write that in caps because I realise this is not always the case, some people just honestly don't find the right person) that he is just one of those people who is never going to be prepared to share their lives in that way with anyone.
I know it is still early days, I would be out off if he were asking you to move in together etc at this stage too, BUT to not even call you his girlfriend, which lets face is is a very broad and bland term, is a big red flag for me. He is 38, by now he KNOWS if he wants you as a girlfriend or not.

NameThatTuna Mon 29-Jul-13 16:34:57

She's 65! So there's still plenty of time for you. Don't think you're too old please, i'm the same age as you grin

NameThatTuna Mon 29-Jul-13 16:40:36

Delayed Good post.

There is a lot of truth in that. DP had been in a committed relationship before him met me. It ended badly, I won't go into details but it was a painful break up, lost his home etc. Thankfully no DC involved. So he had been capable of commitment, his was just a fear of it happening again.

Work colleague - He had got to 60 odd years old without living with anyone or having a commitment relationship. He just didn't have it in him and likes his life just how it is. I don't think she'd ever be happy with him. He seems pretty clueless as to what a real relationship is like.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 16:43:17

Delayed, maybe you are right but I have to find out for sure... up to that point things felt so right. I can't yet believe it meant nothing.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 16:45:28

I really wouldn't get hung up on the 'girlfriend' label.

For him it could be a synonym for 'partner'.

I agree that some men/women of 38 are not cut out for a permanent relationship, but often it's down to not meeting the right person, as you said.

One of my ex's didn't marry till he was 50. He was 35 when we met. He dated someone for 10 years ( after me) but he assured me ( we stayed friends) that he was always very clear with her that he would never marry her as she wasn't 'the one'. Within 6 months of her leaving him he'd married someone else.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 16:59:41

I'm not so hung up on the term. More I want to be reassured I'm not the only one with feelings here. I know, I know...

ProfessorDent Mon 29-Jul-13 17:05:06

Would I be wrong in thinking that someone who adopts the name 'crapartist' might have self-esteem issues?

Anyway, it's hard to go from the easygoing, just-passing relationship to the real deal, in theory it's a natural progression but often the former is about avoiding the latter...

NameThatTuna Mon 29-Jul-13 17:06:25

That's it isn't it? Because things are good between you (commitment aside) it feels as though he feels like that but is too scared to admit it for whatever reason.

In some cases that's true, in others its because they're good actors and want to keep you sweet to get the no strings sex.

When DP admitted how he felt, I was like 'I fucking knew you did, you idiot!'

It's so bloody confusing.

Viviennemary Mon 29-Jul-13 17:12:55

There is no need to stop seeing him. But I think you just have to realise that he does not want to be committed in any way. That's quite hard to accept. If this was five years on or even two years on it would be different. But it's only a few months. I'm quite old fashioned in a lot of my thinking but I certainly don't go along with what Val said on the first page re men see women in two camps.

Scarlett2i4 Mon 29-Jul-13 17:16:14

Only read the first and last page but you seem to be at much the same place.
Men love free sex and female attention. It saves them from only self relief, or paying for it, or just having to do without. He sounds as slippery as an eel. The fact that you're becoming more and more emotionally involved in this relationship is probably a pest and a problem for him. If he was falling in love with you surely he'd react differently from this, no matter what happened to him in the past? You're a completely different person, after all. Why can't he be optimistic about you? Or willing to risk it?
Couldn't you just tell him you'd be very happy to go out with him and have nice times together as friends but actual sex is off the menu from now on because you feel you like are being used to some extent (whether it's true or not) and tell him that feeling like this makes you lose your self respect.
Tell him that with you sex involves emotions whereas you know that a man can happily have sex with a stranger and walk away. Tell him this straight out and honestly.
But now for a lie maybe - Also tell him that you had a very bad experience in the past (which you have never mentioned to him) in which a man loved having sex with you and was very nice to you but when it came to the next natural stage he vanished out of your life! Tell him this even if it's a total lie! It'll give you an excellent excuse for withholding sex from him. Tell him nicely and say that you're sure he'll understand.
If he's still wanting to take you out for meals and the theatre or whatever after about 4 months of this, well, that would indicate he really wants you for yourself and is very fond of you!
But for this to work there's have to be zero exceptions. Allowing him to get you a bit drunk and then doing it will get you nowhere and will prove nothing. You need to be firm and have your wits about you at all times and stick to the plan! You mustn't let him be fully in control of how things are to go. it puts you in a very inferior position.
That's my advice as a very occasional intruder here, out of curiosity and a tendency to waste time - a man...
I only wish I'd met a woman who'd been as lovely to me and as willing to give me everything as you are to him, and without any commitment! I was never so lucky!

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 17:18:55

Professor I do have issues, but I've worked damn hard this past year to deal with them. Which is why I left my last relationship. The name is just a joke because I really am crap, I just do it for fun :-)

Tuna, thats it exactly. If he said he felt something for me I would say I bloody knew it. Its just the way he is with me, its so easy. I dont think hes that good of an actor. I think hes just chicken, but I could be wrong, it wouldnt be the first time!

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 17:21:08

Also I havent really considered that he may be woreiwd about being rebound guy.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 17:21:28


msshapelybottom Mon 29-Jul-13 17:29:41

It's only been a few months. If he's as nice as you say he is, then what's the harm in continuing a little longer and seeing how things go?

Can't you just enjoy things for what they are without worrying about the future too much?

He sounds lovely. I don't think he's done anything wrong, he's been honest with you and treats you with respect.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 17:59:42

I have to worry a bit about it, but I can try to rein it in a bit. I've always been a worrier, its not easy!

Shroomboom Mon 29-Jul-13 18:28:34

Hi crapartist,

I had problems trying to get dh to commit, I think sometimes men can't see what's under their noses. I got to the point where I felt like I was chasing him - I knew it was right, but he just couldn't see it sad He even told me that he couldn't see himself ending up with me. In the end I just backed off. I didn't call him for a couple of weeks and when he called me I was pretty reserved. During this time I convinced myself that this was the end so I spent a whole night composing a letter about how I felt so much for him but if my feelings weren't reciprocated then I was wasting my time and I wanted to call it a day.
Anyway, the day after I wrote the letter he called me (it was a long distance relationship) to tell me how much he missed me and basically it's been wonderful since then. He says now that that time made him realise exactly what I meant to him, and that he wanted me in his life.
We have been together almost 15 years now, and it's still wonderful smile Sometimes people just need a little nudge to make them see things how they really are.

My advice to you would be the same as a few of the other posters - to just enjoy it and have fun for now and see where it goes. I do think you should give yourself a time limit and then maybe try getting him to open up a little to see if he thinks there's a future. It sounds like a lovely relationship, and you sound happy to be with him, so just give it a little time. I didn't plan what happened with my dh, it just seemed like the right time to back off and maybe you'll get to that point too. I never played games with dh, I have always been up front and open about things and it really did pay off.

Good luck whatever happens smile

NameThatTuna Mon 29-Jul-13 18:33:33

The beginning of a relationship is always like that. Even if he didn't mention the lack of commitment, you'd still be worrying if he liked you enough. It's always like that.

When you're in a long term commited relationship, you long for the initial excitement of does he or doesn't he like me. It seems exciting after you've been with someone for years.

Either way you look at it, we're fucked really grin

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 19:02:19

You need to look at your relationship history. Do you make a habit of coming on too strong, or being possessive , or wanting commitment quickly? If so, then what was the outcome of that?

You also need to remember that it's what men do not say that speaks volumes.

We all know about men who have silver tongues then disappear in a puff of smoke.

But just because yours isn't making big declarations to match your wants and needs, you think he doesn't care.

The facts are he is seeing you more now than he did at the start.
So- he likes you.

Stop wanting all your boxes ticked so quickly or TBH you will fuck this relationship up.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 19:52:17

One final thought- did you meet him through a dating site or something where it was made 'clear' that you and him were looking for a FWB? If not, how did you meet and 'decide' that this was just sex?
The reason I ask is because ( having read your first post again) it seems that each of you wanted the same thing at the start- uncomplicated sex ( though I think that is a unicorn myself) - and now your position has changed. And you expect his to have too.

I just think you need to describe how you decided - in your own head or otherwise- that all you wanted was sex, yet within a few weeks you are asking if you are his potential girlfriend.

You see in many relationships, people meet with the hope that as well as great sex, the relationship will develop- and it's an unspoken but shared goal. What I'm saying is, did each of you explain without any ambiguity at the start that you just wanted FWB?

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 19:58:23

You all speak a lot of sense and I am listening. I've just been for a lovely run in the park and sat by the lake thinking about all your advice. I am going to take positive steps to slow down, relax and enjoy this whilst being aware that I'm not going to myself short either. Thank you all you lovely people thanks

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 20:01:21

We met on a night out through work Missbopeep. I'd known of him before but never had much to do with him. It was a ONS initially, we kept in touch and decided to meet again, with the agreement it would be casual. So much for that!

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 20:04:27

Good girl. But whatever happens know yourself- you don't sound like the sort of person who really wants FWB. If what you really want is a relationship then at least be honest with you.

Because whatever the outcome with this guy, if you set out telling a man you just want sex he'll lap it up usually, and if you want more then that's changing the terms- and he doesn't have to agree to that.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 20:05:13

x-post! Good luck anyway .

notanyanymore Mon 29-Jul-13 20:07:16

i think it sounds like your over-reacting and need to chill out and enjoy how your time together is developing without over thinking it and trying to attach labels. and i think that's all he was saying tbh flowers

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 20:08:14

Thank you, its been good to get such good advice.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 20:10:04

Its not the first time I've been told I should chill out notanymore grin I do have a tendency to overthink!

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 20:10:53


notanyanymore Mon 29-Jul-13 20:18:38

smile we all do it!
Its that tricky business of trying not to relive past mistakes/hurt, and trying not to over do it and let your fears ruin something new.

Missbopeep Mon 29-Jul-13 20:21:33

Agreed and if I've seemed hard on you it's only because I've made all those mistakes myself.

crapartist Mon 29-Jul-13 20:26:38

Not at all. Its given me the perspective I needed.

scrazy Mon 29-Jul-13 21:14:46

Scarlett2i4, if you are still reading, thanks for posting that. It's very apt for me.

Scarlett2i4 Mon 29-Jul-13 23:45:17

Thank you Scrazy. Had a quick look... mustn't get addicted for heaven's sake!
I'm glad it was of some use to somebody. But I'm no mind reader and have made huge blunders myself when it comes to human relationships.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 08:34:40

Scarlett- sorry but I think your post is way off beam. It's the type of thing might dad who's pushing 90 would write. The idea that a man should be in love with you before you have sex and that giving him sex without a declaration saves him from masturbating ( surprised you didn't use the term 'self abuse') or paying for it.
Then to suggest the OP withholds sex on the pretext of being hurt before by a man who 'only wanted one thing'.
Are you as old as you sound?

Glowbuggy Tue 30-Jul-13 09:20:16

It sounds a wee bit like he is keeping his options open!

MadeUpLoveSong43 Tue 30-Jul-13 09:28:35

crapartist I feel your pain being on the dating scene myself smile after some turbulent times.

BUT I would say that he is being nice and respectful.

AND you obviously fancy him.

AND even though you want a relationship with him eventually, it sounds like now is the time to have fun together and let things unfold. It doesn't all have to happen at once.

So how about give yourself 2 more weeks of fun with him (or whatever you can handle) and then if you are still tying yourself up in knots take action.

Don't feel like you have to pretend he doesn't mean anything if he does. He will totally respect your honesty and you will feel better not trying to resist it.

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 09:37:43

You're quite right, Missbopeep, I'm far from young but not quite as old as 90! The only thing I'd say is that the situation isn't quite what you are describing. This guy has had lots of sex already and seems to expect it almost as routine with the lady. Without being cynical it's little wonder he's being very nice to her! Only a fool wouldn't. I only suggested what I did because she gave me the impression that she was worried that this was maybe all he was after in the end and couldn't fathom how he was truly feeling about her.
I met a woman once who told me she waited and waited, but no commitment ever came in spite of sex on tap, and she had to give up in the end, having wasted several years of her life hoping he'd marry her. He would have been quite happy to continue forever, it seems, and remain a free, uncommitted man.
It's a fact that giving a man sex does save him from what I mentioned. These are his only alternatives. One thing you're very wrong about though is your surprise at my not using the term 'self abuse'. Men never look at it that way! No man I've ever met or heard of anyway. It must be extremely unusual, maybe a monk perhaps? I think it's probably only some women who seem to feel a bit guilty about it, a minority, of course.
I think my only reason - as far as I can understand myself! - for hanging around here is only because I myself have a question or a strange and depressing situation to describe and ask what others think about it. Once I've got it out of my system I'll stop looking at a board intended for women. I've felt bad about looking at it at all. I just came on it by chance a few weeks ago.

scrazy Tue 30-Jul-13 10:12:06

Scarlett, don't feel bad for posting. It was a male view and you weren't saying anything against the general grain.

As for withholding sex. Lots of my female friends tell me to stop sleeping with the guy that I'm in a similar set up with. (Great times, together etc but he doesn't want to commit and likes his freedom) So it's not just old fashioned advice.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 10:19:26

Scarlett- there are enough women out there who can satisfy most men's needs without needing any sign of commitment from the man. Yours is a very old fashioned view- ie that women only want commitment and men only want sex. There are some women who want sex and no commitment. There are websites for example where anyone can find a fuck buddy or a friend with benefits. Paying for sex or masturbation ( self relief as you quaintly call it) are not the only options you know!

Do you really expect women to withhold sex until a man commits to them? Or in the case of the OP, are you really saying she should don her chastity belt and shout 'enough!' unless he gets down on bended knee?

For goodness' sake move into the 21stC.

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 11:14:34

Missbopeep - there are certainly plenty of women who are willing to satisfy the needs of men who are average to tall - especially tall! - and reasonably good looking and self confident with it. But for those under average in height - I don't mean tiny - just a bit below the average, and/or who are not very good looking, and with all that, naturally, can go a lack of self confidence, well, life can be very very different from what you describe! They can end up having quite a struggle to find any love or sex from a woman at all, commitment or no commitment.
So the options I mentioned can be all that's available to them. This applies right now in this century and was always true, even thousands of years ago, I'd say.
I'm not the worst but I'm not tall and have been forced, time and time again, to realise how very important a man's height is to most women. Nor do I have a chip on my shoulder about it but it's just a fact. But it's also very understandable why it is so important to them so I don't blame them in the least.
Please don't imagine for one minute that all men find it easy, no matter how many dating and fuck buddy sites there are out there. You're mostly talking about the lucky ones, lucky to have had the right parents! Just think how many men you'd reject yourself almost immediately and you'll see what I mean.

As for the OP, well, maybe she'd just like to know, out of curiosity at least, what his reaction would be if he didn't get precisely what he wanted every single time, for a month or so?
If she gets too emotionally entangled with him and is hoping and hoping, but still there is little sign from him except being very nice and polite and all that... well, it could end up being torture and misery for her like when you get a serious wound.In other words, bloody hell! She needs to get some sign fairly soon that he is feeling the same about her, or starting to. It's a case of emotional self-protection and preservation of sanity, I feel.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 12:04:58

Scarlett- I think you are projecting far too much of your own issues onto the OP and I don't want to keep going over old ground. I think the OP received some great advice that she said was helpful. I don't think your idea of withdrawing sexual favours to force his hand re. commitment is a good one, for all kinds of reasons.

If you think you have had problems attracting women due to your statue- and you say you are not really short- then I'd guess it's not really about your height at all. Women are not really as into tall ( or average) height men as much as you'd like to think.

You've now introduced another topic and although you are very welcome on MN ( all men are) it might be best to start your own thread about your own issues- including the parenting you had which is still clearly something that affects you now- because your input IMO is becoming off topic.

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 12:32:36

As for parenting, I was only referring to genes! I am under average height but not unusually so. As for the OP, as you say, she's had lots of good advice now. Thanks for replying to me.

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 12:59:16

Gosh, Scarlett, you are a funny onion aren't you

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 13:37:28

Am I? I thought I was just a man who's strayed onto dangerous territory and had better get away before I step on a mine!
I will, but after I've asked for opinions about something. Maybe I'll get torn to ribbons and not believed..! I'll just have to see, and if so, just too bad. Either way, I'll get quickly away from here before I get killed...!.

Val007 Tue 30-Jul-13 14:48:02

Missbopeep, very patronising... We women are weird creatures. We get a man's point of view on a plate here, and we reject it, because it doesn't suit us and we believe we can change man's nature. Ha-ha-ha. Scarlett is very right to withdraw now and no wonder most men don't venture into our hen-shed - they don't want to spill the beans which make them get free sex, do they? And then, look at all the threads - he did that, he is a wanker, he is abusive. A lot of times it is because we allow it. Not all cases, but many. And understanding male nature would help us not fall into such avoidable scenarios.

Way to go, Scarlett! wink

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 14:58:36

It's one man's view Val....and all it does is say how he perceives 'easy' sex and commitment.

I've heard it all before. From my dad. He brought me up to believe that the only way to get & keep a man was not to give him sex , so he'd take me to the altar before he, well..took me smile

scrazy Tue 30-Jul-13 15:06:57

But Miss Peep, there are many men who when you really pin them down will admit that they like a woman to make them work/wait for it. Of course, they won't admit it to a woman who is willing, why would they.

I know, lots of relationships start off sexual but that could be down to timing or when it's happened to me it's because the guy has already gone through the really wanting stage, e.g been a friend first who has been secretly lusting, so a 'relationship' has already been established.

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 15:11:56

But I don't believe what your dad did. I'm all for everyone having lots of safe sex and being happy in a lovely free and easy way about it and not getting hurt.
It was just that I interpreted it that the OP had a dilemma and was beginning to suffer. Is he really as nice and genuine as he seems? Or is he cynically only using her in the nicest possible way? How can she tell? So it's a case of: she certainly wants him, but how much does he really want her? Getting hurt emotionally is horrible. Stopping sexual favours for a little while might help her to find out the truth, I thought.

Crinkle77 Tue 30-Jul-13 15:29:18

Sorry but if he isn't sure now I don't think he ever will be

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 16:07:50

But the point is Scarlett that it's harder to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. I don't think you are engaging with the reality of the relationship. If she withholds sex now, then it's pretty obvious why she's doing it. And if it's not then the guy would ask why. Her answer presumably would be 'to see if you want me more than just for sex'. This flies in the face of all the good advice here which is to keep him guessing a bit about how emotionally involved she's become, and not come over as needy, insecure and desperate for commitment.

As a woman, and maybe this is where we differ, I'd like to think that if a man was having sex with me, seeing me 3 x a week or more, and appeared to like me, it was more than just for the sex. As I said before, he could get that anywhere - plenty women are very happy to be a FWB or a 1 night stand. You seem to be saying that men hang around with women just for sex, and get away with no commitment simply because the women allow this. You don't seem to consider the fact that the man might really like her, but just not be ready to commit to her or anyone (yet.) Why stop the sex to find out? Is her lovely personality not as appealing- or do you see women just as sex objects?

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 16:37:57

Thanks for explaining. I understand better what you mean now.
Funnily enough I once had a girlfriend who gave me sex from the very first date! Very unusual for me to get that! It never even occurred to me that her doing that cheapened her in any way. Of course it didn't, not in the slightest, and I loved it.
I really came to like her a lot and eventually hoped we'd get married, but she had a horrible and terribly upsetting habit of occasionally saying, almost coldly and unexpectedly, "If we finish...", and sometimes saying that if only I had some savings or property, like her, things would be different.
But I kept hoping and we continued to have regular sex. She even came and chose the wallpaper, etc. for when she'd move in with me, and which I decorated the walls with. But then I was introduced to her mother... That was the end of it! Her mother couldn't have liked me.
She ordered me to bring stuff of hers, ornaments, etc. which she'd asked me to take in anticipation of living with me, back to her flat immediately as she had decided to finish with me! . She did it quickly and clinically. Ruthlessly, in fact. I was devastated and terribly hurt at the time
But then, later, after total silence for a while, she actually phoned me again one night and asked for my advice about her new boyfriend! He had said something she didn't like and it had hurt her feelings, and wondered what I thought! She was wanting a sympathetic ear, I think. You're right, Missbopeep, I don't really understand women! I just try to.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 16:55:15

You didn't lose much- a woman who didn't know her own mind, who was so easily influenced by her mother, and who thought that you ought to be richer and a man of property.

We've already got a Jane Eyre type scenario in one busy thread here today, so I'm trying to think what your ex reminds me of....

Maybe now you've got the hang of us strange creatures you'll be brave enough to start your own thread about whatever is bothering you? smile

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 17:04:19

Ok, but I know I'll likely be condemned by some and probably not believed - not trying to avert it by saying that though. But I'll do it anyway.... maybe after a cup of coffee!

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 17:06:54

For god's sake, spit it out Scarlett

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 17:13:28

You know how to keep us interested...grin

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 17:23:57

I am losing the will to live here

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 17:26:53

It had better be worth the wait. C'mon Scarlett, stop being a tease and finish that coffee.

Scarlett2i4 Tue 30-Jul-13 17:51:44

Please believe me that I'd written a lot when the screen suddenly reverted to the desktop! I couldn't get the mumsnet page I'd been at back again. I lost the whole message. I hope that doesn't happen again. Have to save long, but unfinished things on Notepad or something.
Not trying to tease at all but I've got less time now as this is best written when my wife is out. I'll start again.

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 18:02:30

I am going to be nice. I am going to be nice. I am going to be nice. I am going to be nice.


Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 18:04:18

If it's long, try writing it in Word then copy and paste ( and you can save it at the same time.)

We will all be very nice .

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 18:06:38

Get your wife to type it for you. Ahem.

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 18:07:07

< ties pink bow in hair >

Parmarella Tue 30-Jul-13 18:20:24

This s going to sound really stupid, but from what I understand from men is that they like, love, the pursuit.

That if you mtach his "taking things slow" with a "yes, that was what I was thinking" and occassionally not being available, as you have other things to do and interesting people to meet.

Some might call this game playing though.

But for someone a bit (too) proud, like me, it would be my natural way of behaviour. Even within a relationship.

If you are already very committed and always available, what is there or him to fight for. I am not saying this is hw things should be, but how I think things often are.

Sort of playing it cool.

Can see how this post might make MNers cringe though!

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 18:21:40

< cringe >

That sounds a bit "Men are from Mars..." to me

Parmarella Tue 30-Jul-13 18:32:53

That is such a dumb book!

Disgusted with self

Dahlen Tue 30-Jul-13 18:35:14

The trouble is with the "What is there for him to fight for" attitude is that the logical extension of that is one where you have to keep it up for the rest of your relationship. Otherwise, as soon as you commit, he loses interest - whether that's now or 12 years down the line.

Frankly that sounds exhausting and I'd rather be on my own than have to work that hard to keep someone interested.

OTOH if you mean not being needy, that's always an attractive quality in my book. Needy people do my head in.

What's wrong with being able to lead your own life but also making it clear you'd love to see someone if they're free? If you have to hide your emotions and vulnerability that much, it doesn't really bode well for your ability to communicate when the pressure is really on, like after a baby or a job loss or death of a parent, etc.

Parmarella Tue 30-Jul-13 18:38:18

I do mean not being needy, though occassional neediness in a long term relationship is a nice inulgence

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 18:41:11

So you should be Parma

I think you should say 10 Hail Mary's to atone for that. wink

Or 10 "Germaine Greer had a point's"

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 18:52:18

I am still reading with interest. So many different points of view to consider.

cerealqueen Tue 30-Jul-13 18:52:39

I would step back too. I had this with my now DP, it was me making arrangements, etc so got fed up I emailed saying lets leave this on the back burner, we are both busy etc etc. That got him moving and now a mortgage and two kids later....

Anyway, make it clear that if you are not his girlfriend, he is not your boyfriend and maybe you are up for seeing other people.....

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 18:53:12

And Scarlett I want to hear your story too...

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 18:56:51

Cereal you've just reminded me of something. He asked me once if I would ever go back to my ex, and another time if I was seeing anyone else. He seemed happy to hear me say no to both questions. You can see why I was starting to feel it wasn't just me with feelings!

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 19:04:09

Have you had the "exclusivity" chat you young dating things seem to have these days ?

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 19:07:12

No, I think that was what I meant to do the other night when i brought "us" up but as you see, it didn't go very well!

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 19:11:48

Do you think he might be fending you off because he is actually seeing others too ?

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 19:14:39

I don't believe he is, he's always available if I contact him to do something, be it short notice or long.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 19:16:11

And like I said, we spend almost every weekend together. I know thats not definitive but I don't think he is seeing others.

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 19:19:40

In my day, it was a given that you were both "exclusive" if you had the amount of contact that you two do

and that what you had was a "bf/gf" relationship, that was monogamous

also that you should be able to talk about it

that is the jarring point here, IMO

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 19:20:00

I am quite old, though smile

AnyFucker Tue 30-Jul-13 19:20:46

this was pre-texting, pre-online dating, pre-Facebook and pretty much pre-everything that seems to fuck up relationships these days

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 19:21:37

Oh forget all that stuff about what each of you is called - B/f, g/f or not.

All that matters is you like each other, and the only way you can see how much CA is to back off and see if he fills the space.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 19:25:07

We should, but we haven't. The cat is out of the bag though so I guess we will now. Its just what terms we are offering or are willing to accept that need to be discussed.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 19:28:00

I am backing off for a bit first. I need time to figure out what I want. I have a full weekend planned with my friends and don't intend to contact him for a bit.

garlicagain Tue 30-Jul-13 19:54:31

Epic post warning!
I'm not projecting here, just telling a bit of my story. XH2 and I never did date - we went from being FWBs to being sort-of-an-item over a period of years, then had the exclusivity convo, but there was a kind of absence in certain parts of the relationship. I didn't worry about it much, as wasn't necessarily seeing us as a Big Thing.

The time came, anyway, when I decided the benefits of being with (but not with) him no longer outweighed the costs. We met up and I gave him the nice little talk; he seemed to take it very calmly and I toddled off to get the Tube, almost feeling let down! He ran after me and proposed shock

I said no at first, but he wanted to know why and asked if it would alter my answer if he rectified those matters. It would. After more thinking & talking, I said yes.

It was a big mistake. I knew it at the time, and continued to know it, but he seemed incredibly committed and I really couldn't put my finger on why I didn't feel all that comfortable with things. Now, I can tell you exactly why, and can also identify the many red flags that showed up during those early years. One of them, interestingly, was him randomly turning up in the middle of the night at my place ...

Outside my initiation into the whole world of abusive patterns and personality disorders, the main thing I have taken from the experience is that I need to be much clearer about what I want from my relationships. Not 'develop' my wishes as the relationship develops; not adapt to a partner's wishes; not go with the flow. XH proposed because he didn't want to be dumped. Not only is that pathetic, it's extremely common!! It's an absolutely terrible reason to propose! Had I believed in my own conviction - that me+him had already gone as far as it could reasonably go - I'd have walked into the station and the story would have been different.

Do you want to be married/living with a compatible partner? If you do, then start looking for one who also wants to be married/living with. It looks so simple, but we manage to complicate it any number of ways. With his rather strange conflation of moving in and marriage, your guy seems to be saying that a shared laundry basket = lifetime commitment to him. Are you comfortable with that? Especially as he's told you he doesn't want to share your laundry basket? Come to think of it, he's told you several times, hasn't he? Why is that, considering the short time you've been together(ish)? Seems to be a clear warning.

So - which do you want: a relationship lite, of no real consequence, with this guy, or a compatible life partner?

garlicagain Tue 30-Jul-13 20:00:07

Perfect x-post smile smile

scrazy Tue 30-Jul-13 20:07:03

garlic, great post. I know it's not my thread but something you wrote has really hit a nerve with me, the bit about acknowledging the end of the road and to let go no matter what he says. I'm there now and need to act on it.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 20:07:40

But it doesn't always work like that Garlic.

Are you saying that a woman ( or a man) should make it clear early on in a relationship that they a) want to settle down ( soon) , or b) they want to settle down with that person?

Because I for one would agree about being open about a) but not so open about b) if the guy was a bit unsure.

I'd bide my time- for a while- then reassess. If he still wasn't doing and say the right things, then bye bye. But not said as a ploy to extract a proposal or commitment- only if I genuinely felt the relationship was going nowhere.

lemonstartree Tue 30-Jul-13 20:07:59

I think, for me , the fact that after several months of spending every weekend together and several week nights, as well as commenting on his sexual exclusivity, he will not call you his 'girlfriend' is a bit.. odd. And worrying. I agree you need to let the relationship develop and not fret too much right now about marriage/moving in together, but to suggest you are just FWB is , well insulting. ( or it would be to me)

to me he is SAYING one thing ' I don't want to move in with anyone, we are FWB, don't get serious' and DOING another - kind, nice, loving supportive and making you feel good. This is why you are confused.

My guess is he does this. Is nice, hes probably a nice man - BUT he has the 'ideal' woman he wants to marry and you don't live up to it. I suggest his 'ideal woman is unobtainable - too good for him in looks/social standing/ financial standing /youth etc etc possibly all of these. Such men will spend all their lives in serial monogamy but never commit because they don't meet the ideal woman. I know several men, in their 50's, now lamenting the chances they let slip away, but still not seeing that the GF they have now is great...

From what you have said you have everything going for you two as a couple. So why is he NOT happy ? Why does he not want to call you GIRLFRIEND ?

sorry, but I would protect my heart. And if I couldn't do that IN the relationship, id split.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 20:08:16

You hit the nail on the head garlic smile

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 20:12:19

Garlic- are you saying he doesn't want commitment, full stop. Or are you saying he does possibly but CA is not right for him and he knows it but won't say?

I don't think it's necessarily either of those.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 20:12:58

I think garlic and missbopeep are both right. Its about knowing what I want, not necessarily blurting it out as I did, but allowing it to develop or if not, letting it go.

Lemon he has said we are more than FWB. But he may well have been saying that to keep me sweet.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 20:19:04

Cross post.

Missbopeep, do you think I simply raised it too soon then?

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 20:32:59

Based on my own experience- now with DH almost 30 years- yes.

I posted ages back how DH was a bit like this guy though he didn't avoid calling me his g/f.

Let me give you one example.

One by one DH's close friends/colleagues got married and we were still just dating. At this point his mates would ask ( half jokingly, in front of me) when was it going to be our turn. DH just looked uncomfortable and laughed it off.

About 18 months after we had been seeing each other ( every weekend) DH bought a house. His mates asked why he wasn't taking me along to view it too ( again, in front of me) as they assumed we were an item and I'd be moving in .

Again, DH laughed it off and said things like 'Oh nothing like that.....'

We have since talked about this. DH says that when we met he wasn't even thinking about marriage ( with me or anyone.)

He saw it as a huge step and didn't want to get it wrong.

I had no idea if we'd end up together or not. I often tried to 'test him' by saying I was thinking of working overseas in some remote 3rd world country. He'd say 'If that's what you want, do it.'
He had no inkling it was a 'test'.

I've told you the rest. I got fed up, distanced myself physically and emotionally and actually met a guy I adored- though he didn't adore me back. Then DH stepped up to the plate.

It was 3 years though- not 3 months.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 20:42:33

I see your point. And I feel your situation is similar to mine. Although I would say that as it suits me!

More to think about. Basically I just need to slow the hell down but keep an eye on whether I am happy or not. And get out if I'm not.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 20:46:28

Feel free to PM me because I don't want to write more of my autobiography!

RinseAndRepeat Tue 30-Jul-13 21:01:30

I think spending all this time and energy trying to work out what he feels and why he's acting like this and what it all means is a red herring.

OP you just need to consider whether this is good enough for you. Is this what you want any more? It's okay to say that it's not.

Once you've worked out exactly what it is you do want (and I think a big part of this is you finding the courage to be brave enough to admit that actually, yes, you do want a relationship with him, with everything that entails) then you need to be honest with yourself about whether you're going to get it from him.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 21:03:48

Thank might be sorry you offered that with all the questions I have!

scrazy Tue 30-Jul-13 21:17:30

Crap, it's him you need to ask questions and really listen to how he responds. People tell you who they are.

crapartist Tue 30-Jul-13 21:34:21

True Scrazy

garlicagain Tue 30-Jul-13 21:48:31

I think spending all this time and energy trying to work out what he feels and why he's acting like this and what it all means is a red herring.


Bopeep, I definitely don't mean state your objectives early on, no. I meant be clear in one's own mind. I think crapartist had already got that by herself smile Plus, see R&R's post above.

anna891 Tue 30-Jul-13 21:51:32

There is a book that might help. 'Why men love bitches'. Full of good advice.

Missbopeep Tue 30-Jul-13 21:53:18

I think she knows what she wants, but she doesn't know if she is going to get it. Two different things.

DelayedActionMouseMaker Wed 31-Jul-13 11:39:22

Missbopeep. I have to ask you, how did your do make you feel though when he laughed off others comments? Didn't you feel invalided and uncertain? How old were you? How old was he?

I just thnk a couple in their thirties, both of whom have had last serious relationships, KNOW after three months if they want to be (for want of a better word) boyfriend/girlfriend. I'm not saying he should know if he wants to marry you or move in. But he surely knows that if your not FWB and are exclusively sleeping together that makes you a couple?

Crapartist, I honestly think he's being very clear, and very honest...he's happy with the status quo, which would indicate that although exclusive in sleeping with other women terms, he may jump if he finds the one.

I've seen it with so many friends and experienced it myself often too. We sit and convince ourselves that 'oh he's been hurt before, he's just shy, there's this/that/the other reason why he doesn't want to say we're a couple...and we allow ourselves to undervalue our worth and our right to be in an equal relationship. You like this guy more than he does you, if that wasn't the case he's have jumped at the chance of being your boyfriend...because had it been HIM trying to suss out the situation you'd have had no hesitation in telling him he was your boyfriend right?

There will always be the odd case where things worked out differently, but you need t be straight, both with yourself and with him, that he wants something different from this relationship than you do.

Fwiw you sound lovely, and I'm sure there's a guy who'd be sensible enough to see that and act on it out there!

DelayedActionMouseMaker Wed 31-Jul-13 11:40:16

Bloody ipad, not invalided, unvalued! English is my first language. Honestly!

Missbopeep Wed 31-Jul-13 12:19:18

Delayed- If you don't mind, I don't want to answer that as I've already given quite lot of my personal life history to the OP! Just let's say that we were late 20s and he did refer to me as his girlfriend but he wasn't thinking about marriage within 3 months of meeting. I wasn't a FWB for him or anyone. I think you've misconstrued what I wrote.

RinseAndRepeat Wed 31-Jul-13 13:20:58

OP you would obviously like this to progress into something more serious. He's making noises that he's not really up for that happening.

You need to decide if you're happy to continue the relationship on his terms.

And if so, how long are you prepared to do that?

LoisPuddingLane Wed 31-Jul-13 14:23:16

'You allowed this guy to have fun with you from day one and you agree to do this for free'

This is very odd language. Are you suggesting that the OP should have put a price on access to her Chamber of Delights?

A good friend of mine met her partner through a website that was just for meeting fuckbuddies, essentially. A few months down the line they were living together - things can evolve.

However, OP's swain does not appear to want this evolution. I think a heart to heart is needed. It's as if you are doing an internship as his girlfriend but cannot call yourself that or have any of the benefits.

If he genuinely does not see you as his gf, see him less frequently and perhaps see other people. Not to call his bluff, but to find out if there's anyone less fucked up out there.

PeriodFeatures Wed 31-Jul-13 15:27:57

I think that you need to see how things go for a bit longer perhaps?

Don't bring it up again but set a deadline in your own mind. If by this point it seems that he isn't looking to make any more commitment and you are not willing to let things continue the way they are then withdraw.

He's obviously clear about how he wants to do things and is obviously into you. If that's his way then that is his way.

He's either very traditional and is wanting to see how things go or a control freak who is using his values to keep things the way he wants them. Casual. I guess time will tell.

DelayedActionMouseMaker Wed 31-Jul-13 17:26:52

Sorry missbopeep was genuinely wondering, not trying to criticise or be mean in any way. I asked your age then because I put up with all sorts of shitty behaviour from men in my late teens and early 20's but would never do so now. Anyway, you got your happy ending, and that's what counts! smile

DelayedActionMouseMaker Wed 31-Jul-13 17:28:17

Oh and I kinda mixed up what I was saying to you and Crapartist, It was to her that the 'you know after 3 months if you want to be boyf/girlfriend thing.

crapartist Fri 02-Aug-13 13:02:25

So he's contacted me, wants to see me, gave me all the news etc.

Men are confusing confused

Twinklestein Fri 02-Aug-13 14:34:12

If you are confused then simply ask him again where you stand.

Are you his gf?
Will you ever be is gf?

If the answer to both questions is no, and you want to be in a relationship either with him or someone else, then finish it.

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 15:08:09

Why are you confused?
You didn't give the impression here that the relationship was over- only that he didn't want to put the g/f label on you.

You need to turn this round in your head.

It's not about what HE wants. Forget that.

It's about what YOU want.

If you want a more open guy who calls you his g/f then end it- or at least open up with him and say you don't like his behaviour.

If you feel this is too strong then bide your time and see how it pans out but give yourself a mental cut-off point, after which you will either have a conversation with him, or end it, or meanwhile play the field and replace him.

garlicagain Fri 02-Aug-13 15:09:32

YY to Twinkle. It never feels straightforward, though, does it?!

msshapelybottom Fri 02-Aug-13 15:10:33

MissBoBeep speaks a lot of sense smile

crapartist Fri 02-Aug-13 15:44:57

Indeed she does.

I actually thought I'd probably heard the last of him, hence my confusion at him contacting me. Thats what I was telling myself counsellor would say its self preservation to protect myself from rejection.

Perhaps its me that is confusing then :-)

Missbopeep Fri 02-Aug-13 15:55:13

Ah thanks MSB.

You've got to turn this round darling.....

Make it about you, not him.

If you constantly dance to his tune you will ties yourself in knots.

Underlying all of this is a lack of self esteem. I know- got the T shirt.

Once you start believing any guy who sees you is damn lucky, then you'll stop feeling worried and insecure.

crapartist Fri 02-Aug-13 16:02:12

I know you are right. I have done a lot of work on that. Me 10 years ago couldn't even date anyone, my self esteem was so shot. Think (hope) this is just a bad patch.

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