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Am I paranoid or could he be cheating?

(290 Posts)
amijustparanoid Sun 21-Jul-13 18:57:59

DH and I went to his works summer party on Friday night and something that I witnessed with him and a female colleague has been bothering me ever since. When we got there he seemed to make a big effort to sit us on the same table as her - throughout the meal she seemed ok, they were friendly but not overly friendly but later on when I was away from the table I saw him get up and move seats to sit next to her (it was late and people had started to move around/leave so at that time it was only those two at the table) and as he sat down he squeezed her thigh. It was very quick but it definitely happened. Then as I was watching they sat and chatted and while chatting he was helping himself to her drink. She didn't seem to react to either and didn't look surprised at what he was doing.

When I asked him about it on the way home he denied it had happened and when I brought it up again yesterday and said I'd definitely seen him do it and I thought it was inappropariate, he made light of it and said he was drunk and would just have been being friendly. I said I wasn't comfortable with him being that 'friendly' with another woman - especially one that he spends all day at work with but now he says I'm being ridiculous.

What do you think? Would you do something like this if drunk even if there was nothing going on with the person? He says the drink thing is nothing but I wouldn't help myself to someone elses drink unless we were close and used to sharing.

My friend thinks he was being a drunken idiot and says that if there was something going on with her then he would have tried to keep us apart and not sit us with her but I can't shake how uneasy it's made me feel. Before that night I had no suspicions anything was wrong, I'd never even heard of her before but now I'm sitting here dreading tomorrow knowing that he'll be with her all day at work.

Am I being silly over a couple of minor things or would this bother you?

ImperialBlether Sun 21-Jul-13 19:01:03

I would be very concerned, too. Obviously him touching her thigh is completely inappropriate if they're not in a relationship, so either way he's not the man you thought he was. As for the drink, it suggests an easy intimacy that would really concern me.

Does he go out much with people from work? Does he use his phone much at night?

PoppettyPing Sun 21-Jul-13 19:08:13

Um, this would definitely bother me.

People don't follow people around sipping from their drinks and squeezing their thighs if they don't fancy them IMO. Even people I'm just being friendly with do not receive said squeezes or sips.

Seems a bit too intimate. Any other little niggles that have come up lately?

Leverette Sun 21-Jul-13 19:10:07

Whatever is going on, the fact that he squeezed her thigh and then lied about it would indicate he isn't good enough for you.

Upnotdown Sun 21-Jul-13 19:16:20

I feel hurt for you - I winced reading that.

I don't know if there's anything going on but I hope not. That ust have been horrible to see.

Twinklestein Sun 21-Jul-13 19:20:08

I does imply intimacy, but on it's own it's not conclusive.

Horribly, you're going to have to look for more evidence.

BigW Sun 21-Jul-13 19:22:11

The drink thing is more worrying I think. It's quite an intimate thing and the fact that it didn't bother her is strange. Drunken thigh squeeze, whilst wildly inappropriate, I could buy. But being that comfortable that sharing a drink is a natural thing would make me upset.

I'm sorry you had to see it and I really hope it turns out to be nothing.

ChristineDaae Sun 21-Jul-13 19:24:56

I don't know, I can see why you thought cheating but I wouldn't jump straight to it.
I think the more concerning part is if they're such close friends why have you never heard of her?

AmyFarrahFowlerCooper Sun 21-Jul-13 19:27:43

Did she react to the thigh squeeze? If not, it could suggest she is used to that level of intimacy from him on a regular basis.

DfanjoUnchained Sun 21-Jul-13 19:29:38

Yes, I would be very concerned.

I'm picturing it being my H and I think I would automatically assume they are having some sort of EA at the least, especially because it all seemed very intimate.

I would start digging hard.

newbiefrugalgal Sun 21-Jul-13 19:33:05

Definitely questionable.
He might start cleaning his tracks now that your suspicions are aroused.
Can you access his emails?
Do you have any contact with him at work normally?
Anyone you trust?

itwillgetbettersoon Sun 21-Jul-13 19:47:45

Inappropriate behaviour with a female colleague. If it was my partner I would definitely be suspicious. It looks like something is happening. Poor you, keep strong and you need to decide whether you believe him or not.

PerchedOnMyPeddleStool Sun 21-Jul-13 20:09:03

I worked with men and a particular group for a long time 10 men to two women kind of thing.
I have been out for meals and have been fed from forks, shared/tasted drinks if one of us had something different, I'd also have had an arm around my shoulder or hugs and there was never anything in it.

You just get used to these things with people you spend 40+ hours a week with. To me it was brother/sister type thing.

I wouldn't read into it OP personally. I wasn't there though and don't know what type of relationship those colleagues would have, just giving my own perspective.

amijustparanoid Sun 21-Jul-13 20:10:17

Thanks for your replies - to try to answer some of the questions:

Until Friday I didn't have any suspicions at all and thought things were fine with us. He's never given me reason to worry before though and I'm generally quite trusting so there's possibly a lot of things I could have missed.

He doesn't go out a lot with work, maybe a night out every couple of months but he does have travel overnight sometimes.

He has a work blackberry and is on it most evenings but he's always been like this and she has apparently only worked with him for 9 months. I just tried to look at it but didn't get chance to properly as he's around and I don't really know how to use it - from what I saw there were quite a few messages from her in the last week but none this weekend (unless he has deleted them). I didn't get chance to read many but the ones I did didn't really help. They weren't about work but they weren't incriminating either, more just general chit chat.

ChristineDaae - Been trying to remember and think he may actually have mentioned her before but only in a 'she's working on this' way, nothing that indicated that they were close.

Amy - she didn't seem to react at all sad

Newbie - do you mean anyone he works with that I trust? If so no, I've met some of his colleagues over the years but am not in contact with any of them directly.

What should I be looking for now?

Hmm if my dh had done it I would be livid. But I might have done something similar with a colleague many moons ago and it would have meant absolutely nothing.
I'm not so sure in this case tho...my dh knew the fella well and whilst I might not have squeezed his thigh I would have shared a drink and put an arm round him without thinking.
Hmm

tessa6 Sun 21-Jul-13 20:29:25

Horrible for you, OP, but it's worth pointing out that there's no way in a long term affair or anything he would be that blatant about wanting to sit near her or anything. So it's probably an early days flirtation or as you say EA that he doesn't realise is inappropriate because she hasn't slept with him (yet).

amijustparanoid Sun 21-Jul-13 21:21:39

PerchedOnMyPeddleStool - he does work with more men than women so may be something in that but no one else was behaving like that with her

Tessa6 - my friend said this too, that he wouldn't want us near each other if there was something going on but it doesn't really reassure me that much. Whether he's really aware of it or not he seems to have got too close to her

faulkernegger Sun 21-Jul-13 21:40:10

Inappropriate at the very least. I'm going through something similar myself so in no position to advise - stay alert, and all best wishes.

DfanjoUnchained Sun 21-Jul-13 22:14:05

So when you said why did you squeeze her thigh, he denied he did completely? hmm I find that even more suspicious tbh. You know what you saw and he's making out you're seeing things. Weird.

DfanjoUnchained Sun 21-Jul-13 22:14:44

Surely of it was innocent he would probably be upset/angry at you for insinuating something untoward, not deny it ever happened.

DfanjoUnchained Sun 21-Jul-13 22:15:32

If I were you, I would set a vibrate alarm under my pillow to wake me at 3am or some silly o'clock and go thought the phone properly.

Mummytobe13 Sun 21-Jul-13 22:19:43

The thing that gets me is how she just sat not reacting to anything when he touched her thigh like wtf. I dnt knw what its like to be drunk but surely he cnt have been that wasted he didnt know what he was doing. Theres obv something going on for him to sit nearer to her.

Callmedreckly Sun 21-Jul-13 22:20:12

Did you get to see her reaction when he touched her thigh?

amijustparanoid Sun 21-Jul-13 22:57:24

When I first brought it up yes he denied it - he was drunk and I didn't push it cause I knew we'd just go round in circles then yesterday when he was sober I brought it up again and was more forceful in telling him I knew what I had seen. He acted like he couldn't remember and said if he had done it, it would only have been because he was drunk and being friendly. He didn't really admit it but stopped outright denying it and got a bit annoyed when I was asking questions about her.

From what I could see no, she didn't react at all which is partly what made me feel so weird about it - she didn't brush it away or look shocked, it was as if she wasn't surprised that he would touch her like that. She was a bit drunk too but neither were so drunk they didn't know what they were doing.

Will try and get hold of his phone again but am scared I might somehow mess up his work emails as I'm useless with it

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Sun 21-Jul-13 23:36:38

A few drinks and either he was getting the courage up to flirt or he's already past that hurdle and with his guard down, was brazen about fancying her. It is skating on thin ice and if he got cross about you asking about her it sounds as if he regrets having let you notice. The cat's out of the bag now so if he isn't asleep with the phone wedged under his pillow have a look.

What sort of phone is it? Maybe someone techy can advise?

People do act on attraction to colleagues and whether one or both are married or not more's the pity.

Selba Sun 21-Jul-13 23:41:02

wouldn't bother me at all ; think you are overreacting unless you have other reasons to be concerned .,

Inertia Sun 21-Jul-13 23:47:13

I can understand why you are upset . The drink sharing and thigh squeezing seem overly intimate to me, but more worrying is the fact that he tried to lie about it.

NanaNina Mon 22-Jul-13 00:20:02

Thank goodness there is at least one other person Selba who agrees with me. I think if people are having an affair they will stay apart from each other at functions so as not to make anyone suspicious. Everyone is asking stuff about his denial etc. and saying he lied about it, but he didn't - he said he was drunk and couldn't remember which is probably the truth and is now fed up of all the questions.

I am worried about why so many MNs are saying this would concern them. Have you never been drunk and been "over familiar" with someone and yes even picked up their drink, or anyone else's for that matter!!

ItsAFuckingVase Mon 22-Jul-13 02:20:24

I'm the only woman in my department at work, and have this sort of relationship with my colleagues. We all work closely together for over 40hrs a week and are totally comfortably in one another's company. It honestly wouldn't occur to me to be shocked or otherwise if one of them touched my thigh, I'm quite a touchy feely person anyway. And we've been know to share / swap drinks when we're all out.

On the other hand, a colleague is having an affair with a woman from a different department, and always sits far away from her at networking events, parties etc

EBearhug Mon 22-Jul-13 02:31:23

I'm the only woman in a department of men and the only way one of them would get away with squeezing my thigh is if I wanted to sleep with them - and in a situation with other colleagues around, probably not even then. (All bets are off when I drink, which is why I'm teetotal these days.) An arm round the shoulder could be matey, but a squeezed thigh is rather more intimate to my mind. But maybe I have different views on what is acceptable.

Longdistance Mon 22-Jul-13 02:56:40

He's got some brass neck sitting you with the ow. Who is he? Hugh Heffner?

I'd be kicking off a lot more. Sharing her drink, I'd be going mad. That's really intimate. I wouldn't even share a drink with my dh, but that's cos he can bloody well get his own.

joblot Mon 22-Jul-13 06:23:37

People who are having affairs can let their guard down, all people are different. I experienced colleagues who denied to the hilt but who I witnessed on nights out behaving inappropriately when they thought noone waswwatching and they were drunk.

To the naysayers- this isn't Disney. If there's no affair then there's ultimately no problem and op and h will sort it. Questioning odd behaviour isn't a hanging offence, it's responsible and necessary

ChristineDaae Mon 22-Jul-13 07:00:51

The more I think about it the more I think actually there has been 2 colleagues I would act like this with. One became my housemate and was genuinely like a big brother to me. We have shared a bed after a night out (before we shared our house) we shared drinks/food, and if he squeezed my thigh I honestly wouldn't have blinked. But there was never ever anything going on! Another is a man I work with now. We often touch etc when talking.
Both are totally innocent, am actually friends with ones wife and both have become friends with my DP over the years.
I would think hard before you decide to go digging. Do you really have enough of a reason to snoop? If you snoop, and he's innocent and finds out, there's going to be a lot of trust issues flying round your house.

DfanjoUnchained Mon 22-Jul-13 07:30:38

So why did the ops H wait until she was away from table to approach her and squeeze her thigh and share her drink?

My H and I have many friends who are women and he will approach them for a chat and hug infront of me.

ChristineDaae Mon 22-Jul-13 07:41:12

I got the feeling from the OP that he moved over when there was space me t to the woman as people had started leaving and she was left sitting alone? Plus it would be pretty rude to leave his wife at one side of the table and move away to talk to someone else at the table.
I'm not saying there 100% isn't something going on, I just don't think it's enough to go on and assume there is something going on. It could very well be innocent.

DfanjoUnchained Mon 22-Jul-13 08:12:47

Did he talk to her at all while you were at the table op?

Mixxy Mon 22-Jul-13 08:39:10

I think the point is christine that the OP never heard of
of this woman before. Surely if you were on a thigh-squeezing, drinks- sharing basis with a co-worker, her name would have come up?

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 22-Jul-13 08:48:41

Has he changed at all at home - become critical, grumpy, picking petty arguments?

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 22-Jul-13 09:10:50

When my DH had his affair, he made a rather intimate gesture when he thought no one was watching him closely and he already had quite a bit to drink - I didn't think much of it at the time as they were very good friends.....

EBearhug Mon 22-Jul-13 09:30:33

I suppose it also depends what he's normally liked when he's very drunk. Some people do get a lot more touchy feely, and if that's how it normally is when he's that drunk. She might have not reacted because she felt it was the easier way than making a fuss.

RoooneyMara Mon 22-Jul-13 09:36:31

Sorry, from what you posted this sounds very much like it has been going on for a while.

Not so much the thigh but the putting her in plain sight, and the sharing of her drink.

At best it's desperate flirting and at worst it's already a physical affair.

Sorry xxx

NanaNina Mon 22-Jul-13 11:54:25

OMG sorry but this "sharing the drink" thing is getting really ridiculous. He picked her glass up for god's sake, he didn't take a sip and slip it into her mouth while they were kissing! No Joblot I know questioning odd behaviour is not a hanging offence and I don't think I or anyone else has inferred that it is!

I think OP that you need to set it all out again, maybe in bullet points because there are still Qs coming about when exactly did he move to sit by this woman, was she sitting alone and how did she react to the thigh squeeze, why did your DH try to lie to you (even though you have already explained that, and why has he not mentioned this girl before and god knows how many more Qs!!

MissStrawberry Mon 22-Jul-13 12:06:34

I disagree with your friend.

I have read too many time about things being in plain sight so that the cheater can plead innocent.

I would make it very clear that he is not to treat you like an idiot, you know what you saw and if there is anything going on he needs to show you the respect you deserve and admit it now. Make it clear that if you do find out and he has lied to you then there will be consequences.

I would try and see his phone again and not worry at all about messing up his work emails. If he won't allow you to see his phone then that would be a warning sign for me.

I am really angry for you and think he is a completely prick.

clam Mon 22-Jul-13 12:55:45

I went on a course recently, that dh was running. None of the other participants knew we were married and I didn't feel the need to tell them. At one point, dh was circling the room during a discussion and lingered at our table. As we were all talking, he leant forward and picked up my water bottle and took a swig. This is, of course, entirely natural for us, but there were a fair few shock faces around the table, prompting me to explain our relationship. It was quite funny actually.

The point is that I think that one, unconscious act on his part, plus the thigh squeeze, is a massive klaxon warning sign. There is no one on this planet whose glass I would take a sip from apart from dh's or my dcc's. Not my parents/siblings/close friends. I'm not talking about someone offering me a taste of something, although even then I would have to know them very well.

Listen to your instincts here. Your h's irritation is telling too. He's probably kicking himself that he slipped up.

malphale Mon 22-Jul-13 13:22:06

Once you start heading down the route of checking his phone, it won't end up good for your relationship, even if you don't find anything. Anytime anything happens you will want to check it, and at some point you will get caught.

I agree with miss strawberry - something is up...

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Mon 22-Jul-13 15:25:45

Okay let's say it was all innocent. Out of all the people there it just happened to be this colleague's table he brought OP to and sat at, this woman rather than any other workmate he moved closer to, her thigh he squeezed and her glass he drank from?

She didn't react surprised or burst out laughing in a "Cheeky devil, hands off" way.

He didn't indulge in 'harmless horseplay' when everyone was in full sight.

clam Mon 22-Jul-13 19:30:33

And he (and others) can swear til they're blue in the face that it was nothing/just being friendly/whatever, but your gut is telling you otherwise. And I'd listen to it.
I can be flirty/friendly, but I can't imagine doing this.

amijustparanoid Mon 22-Jul-13 23:45:35

Thanks for the replies everyone. I really hope I am being silly and I know those two little things are quite minor really it's just they've really got to me. I'm not used to seeing him behave like that with anyone else as he's not generally touchy feely and he wasn't stupidly drunk, I'm pretty sure he knew what he was doing.

To answer some questions - during the meal they were talking but as part of the conversations going on with the whole group, they were large circular tables and she was sat across from us so it wasn't really possible for them to speak without the whole table hearing. When he moved to sit next to her it was because they were the only two left at the table and that bit didn't seem odd to me.

I haven't noticed that he's changed very much - been a little grumpier and more stressed but I put that down to being busy at work. I think I may remember him mentioning her before now I've been thinking about it but only in passing and he never made out that she was at all significant to him.

Haven't had chance to look at his phone yet

Mixxy Tue 23-Jul-13 08:34:28

Keep us posted. I'd be very interested about this situation.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Tue 23-Jul-13 08:44:56

I'd put money on not being alone in this : I'd rather for your sake it was all a storm in a teacup and nothing like a red flag.

One of the biggest pitfalls in any relationship is complacency. So if once or twice we catch ourselves wondering, "Whoa what just happened?" it doesn't mean we're jeopardising what we think we have by questioning something.

Mixxy Tue 23-Jul-13 10:22:22

Perhaps Donkeys. But maybe you also realize that you're married to the office letch. Every office has one. Wouldn't be shining my ring on that one either.

Disrespectful.

BusyCee Tue 23-Jul-13 10:55:48

Ok, so from all the posts it's still a bit possible either way. Not sure that harassing him will help him 'fess up (or give you confidence in his reply- he's already given you an answer and you're not happy with it). And as earlier post-er said, snooping opens up massive trust issues (and leaves you to make your own interpretations about emails you read without context).

Instead, why don't you take different tack. Tell him one last time why you feel uncomfortable about what you saw, that you're still feeling unsure but that you want him to understand what you think of the sitch. Try to talk about what you think, rather than what you feel, as this is often easier for men to deal with (your OH may be different, but they often switch off when confronted by strong emotions, partic. when they're being challenged). Then you've been crystal clear about what are acceptable boundaries for you, and why you're unhappy. Because, assuming he's innocent, is there anything he could say at this stage to convince you of it? You're looking for evidence of guilt now, not innocence...

Jan45 Tue 23-Jul-13 11:13:15

I don't think there is an affair going on but it could be the start of one - and apart from that how disrespectful is that kind of behaviour to you, who else saw him and thought that's so and so's husband feeling up another woman - nice. If that's what he does in your presence I'd be worried what he does when you're not there. It's not on, it's showing a complete lack of consideration for you, tell him it better not happen again and I'd be very suspicious of the two of them.

NanaNina Tue 23-Jul-13 14:31:55

Have any of you noticed that the OP hasn't posted for quite a while! Not reading anything into it, it's just that these threads always get very busy and it can be overlooked that the OP has left the thread!!

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Tue 23-Jul-13 15:42:04

NanaNina some contributions since the OP posted less than 24 hours' ago but threads don't always stop while the OP gets on with life. OP can read further and choose whether to post again or not, we aren't setting a stopwatch.

NanaNina Tue 23-Jul-13 16:38:31

Point taken Donkeys

Nobody squeezes my thigh unless we are shagging (or under five years old)
I really can't believe one colleague could do that to another.

clam Tue 23-Jul-13 17:10:49

I would be watching and listening VERY carefully for the time being, if I were you. I think the casual nature of what you saw is very telling, I'm afraid. Call me a cynic if you like, but I've been around the block a few times.

amijustparanoid Tue 23-Jul-13 21:49:52

Tried to look at his blackberry when he got home tonight - there were 5 or 6 emails from her today but I didn't have time to read any, just looked again and they've all gone. Wish I hadn't seen anything now as I have no way of knowing whether he's innocently sorted a days worth of work emails or deleted a days worth of flirty emails.

And he's just reminded me he's going away on a three day course next week with three others including her. Feeling stupidly panicky about it, a week ago I wouldn't have batted an eyelid but will obviously have no way of knowing what he's up to. I haven't said anything yet but don't see what I can say - he can't and won't refuse to go as it's important for his work.

Can you get hold of the blackberry again?

If I were you I would start thinking, and planning how to deal with the worst. It looks bad op. sorry.

JustinBsMum Tue 23-Jul-13 22:19:04

What do you know about her? Married/single/party goer/career minded/in steady relationship?
Maybe his behaviour was because they/he knew the course was coming up and they have an assignation of some sort.
Private detective??

Silverfoxballs Tue 23-Jul-13 22:28:47

I would be getting him tailed at that course , I know that is a bit extreme but it would drive me in to a state of anxiety.

ShedWood Tue 23-Jul-13 22:32:34

Where is this course? Is it far from you? do you have DC to look after?

If not why don't you say "it seems a shame for you to be in a hotel room on your own next week, I'll come up and join you for dinner and stay over" and see how that goes down.

If he's organised/hoping for a bit of alone time with his colleague he will not be very keen on that idea.

newbiefrugalgal Tue 23-Jul-13 23:23:56

I think offering to join him is too obvious!

If you have funds can you get him followed.
Would give some piece of mind?

Not sure I like the missing emails, is that common to organise them like that?

SawofftheOW Wed 24-Jul-13 00:39:22

He's having an affair with her. It's already physical. They have demonstrated easy intimacy in plain sight - she contrived to stay at the table when everyone else left to give them the opportunity to whisper sweet nothings whilst making it seem that he was simply being courteous. He's deleting her emails and the mention of the fact that she is away with him next week is a double-bluff - he will gaslight you by telling you you are paranoid and delusional, and then he will be shagging her in the hotel. He is a clever and conniving shit and I suspect this has been going on for at least six months.

I am so sorry to read about what you are going through but I totally agree I would get him tailed by a private detective while he is away next week. I have been where you are - my husband's OW was a colleague who wasn't mentioned but he contrived to ensure we were on the same tables etc at work does. He would stop at a small supermarket on his way back from work/picking up our DC from after school care, having arranged for OW to stop there with her DD. Just so they could exchange a word and linger with each other before each went home to their 'shit' partners and 'crap' marriages.

Funny that neither marriage was that crap for the 15 or so years each had notched up before they met at work and realised they were 'extraordinary' together. The story is always the same, the betrayer's script is always the same, and the agony endured by their partners is uniquely terrible. I am so sorry but you must, must keep digging. X

SawofftheOW Wed 24-Jul-13 00:43:53

He's having an affair with her. It's already physical. They have demonstrated easy intimacy in plain sight - she contrived to stay at the table when everyone else left to give them the opportunity to whisper sweet nothings whilst making it seem that he was simply being courteous. He's deleting her emails and the mention of the fact that she is away with him next week is a double-bluff - he will gaslight you by telling you you are paranoid and delusional, and then he will be shagging her in the hotel. He is a clever and conniving shit and I suspect this has been going on for at least six months.

I am so sorry to read about what you are going through but I totally agree I would get him tailed by a private detective while he is away next week. I have been where you are - my husband's OW was a colleague who wasn't mentioned but he contrived to ensure we were on the same tables etc at work does. He would stop at a small supermarket on his way back from work/picking up our DC from after school care, having arranged for OW to stop there with her DD. Just so they could exchange a word and linger with each other before each went home to their 'shit' partners and 'crap' marriages.

Funny that neither marriage was that crap for the 15 or so years each had notched up before they met at work and realised they were 'extraordinary' together. The story is always the same, the betrayer's script is always the same, and the agony endured by their partners is uniquely terrible. I am so sorry but you must, must keep digging. X

DfanjoUnchained Wed 24-Jul-13 06:33:41

Do people really delete boring work emails though? I don't think so, unless they're super efficient

BalloonSlayer Wed 24-Jul-13 06:44:40

I think 5 or 6 emails from her in one day, that were then deleted, tells you all you need to know. sad

thismousebites Wed 24-Jul-13 07:08:12

I really feel for you OP.
Had similar thing happen where I just had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that something about the situation was a bit off.
However your DH will lie and lie all the way home no matter how much you ask him to fess up. Why would he? He knows that up till this incident you were completely trusting of him so will have no real evidence against him.
He put you all on the same table because he wanted to be near to her and he thought you would not be suspicious but the thigh squeeze and shared drink were him letting his guard down. He is now kicking himself for being careless in front if you and has become more careful by deleting the emails as he knows you are on to him.
If you can afford it I would be tempted to have him followed at this work thing. He will never admit anything unless he knows you have proof.

clam Wed 24-Jul-13 17:00:35

If I get a dull email from work, I close it down to deal with later, when I can be arsed.
I don't delete them.

PlatinumStart Wed 24-Jul-13 18:23:39

A reassuring thigh squeeze and casual, drink from her glass are absolute giveaways that they are shagging. Alternatively a robust pat/jovial squeeze of the thigh and the acceptance of an offered taste of a new drink is what friends do.

Only you can say which category his behavior fell into

amijustparanoid Wed 24-Jul-13 18:45:36

JustinBsMum - she's younger than us, in a more junior position to DH and has a boyfriend apparently although he wasn't at the party. That's all I could really get out of dh, he initially said that there 'wasn't much to say' about her but I said he must get on well with her to go and speak and be so 'friendly' (his reasoning after all) he just said 'she's ok I suppose'. No idea what he thinks of her professionally.

The course is about 3 hours away - I work and we have a dd so no way I can pay a surprise visit and couldn't afford a private investigator (seems so scary/sad that I'm even considering it)

I have no idea how he normally manages his work email as have never looked at them before - for me it wouldn't necessarily be odd to leave them in the inbox and then delete/move them later when I had time to sort them but I don't think any others had been deleted. I'm not sure what I'd be looking for in emails anyway though -he's told me before they get screened by his IT department so surely they wouldn't be writing anything that revealing?

amijustparanoid Wed 24-Jul-13 18:54:46

Platinumstart - It's difficult as it was such a brief moment and it's been going over and over in my head so much I'm not sure what actually happened and what I'm just thinking happened now.

I'm pretty sure it was the first of your options though sad There was obviously something about it that has made it affect me so much and I think it's just the way it looked so natural to them - that she didn't flinch or think anything of it, it wasn't like he was being drunkenly lecherous it looked more affectionate.

clam Wed 24-Jul-13 19:05:34

This is tricky, as there's not much more you can do. You've brought it up, and he's playing dumb. There's no way in a million years he'd admit to anything unless you had incontrovertible proof, and even then, some guys carry on denying anything's happened.

I suppose all you can do is watch and wait, keeping your antennae firmly attuned. Maybe ring him at awkward times whilst he's away? But I don't see how you're going to get any peace of mind though.

Sympathies.

JustinBsMum Wed 24-Jul-13 19:49:23

Would deleted emails be in the trash folder?

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Wed 24-Jul-13 19:52:13

Please excuse the bluntness but assuming you still sleep together I personally would want to make very sure of my personal health even ahead of any future sibling for DD.

A work affair with a colleague would be a cheap date: they'd see each other 5 days a week, minus dreary domestic scenarios. Coincidental late nights working or random sickdays are handy excuses for a rendezvous. Anything like late nights working or weekend crisis meetings that ring a bell since pre Christmas? It was 9 months since they started working together?

I don't know anyone in rl who ever arranged a private eye to track a partner. Your best bet is to keep watchful. It is usually a bad case of hand-glued-to-Blackberry-itis that prompts a bout of suspicion or the involved overdone excuse for a simple misunderstanding or abnormally high phone or credit card bill.

thismousebites Wed 24-Jul-13 20:06:55

Did your DH tell you she had a boyfriend or do you know this to be true from another source? If from DH then it sounds like he's trying to put you off the scent by sticking a bogus boyfriend into the mix.
And as for the outwardly disinterested comments when you asked about her, could also just be his way of acting nonchalant in front of you.
You say this incident happened so fast that you are starting to question yourself over what you actually saw. However it has left you feeling unsettled and IME intuition is never wrong. Whatever has made you feel this way is obviously different to how he has behaved in the past where up to now you have had complete trust in him.
Think you need to look deeper into his behaviour over the past few months not just this one evening. If he has been seeing her for a while then his attitude towards you will have altered over that period.....you just haven't noticed it till now.

SawofftheOW Wed 24-Jul-13 20:07:41

'She's OK I suppose' - a very casual remark designed to diminish, both your doubts and his alleged opinion of her. Yet again an attempt to divert you. You are being, as i said before, gas-lighted. My DH shared the same script as yours. When I commented that his work colleague was a particularly attractive woman who must get lots of attention from the men she worked with, he replied 'can't say I've noticed her really'. At that point he had been shagging her for months and they had also looked at property to buy together, schools for our DC and hers. Their plan was that he would be so able to rubbish me due to my regretable habit of being the major wage earner in the family, which led me to have to work very long hours and travel a great deal with my job, that he could ensure the children would live mainly with him and his OW. She was going to claim similar things about her DH. All very cozy. OP, I am so so sorry for you as this has every warning bell in the book ringing. Have you read Shirley Glass's 'Not Just Friends..' - your DH's current behaviour and script is in there. Reading it will help you understand how these work-based affairs begin and how to deal with it. Thinking of you tonight and rooting for you. X

amijustparanoid Wed 24-Jul-13 21:16:53

Had another go on the phone and found an email - all the ones before it had been deleted but it was a trail of probably about twenty starting at 8 this morning with the latest one 30 mins ago so they've been emailing back and forth all day.

It's basically one long, slightly flirting chat. There is nothing that suggests anything has happened and nothing about seeing each other (dh travels between a couple of offices and wasn't in the same one as her today) but it's all very 'friendly' and she was teasing him about his new glasses (he spent £200 on them at the weekend but now says he doesn't like)

Don't know if l can even say anything about this as there's nothing that stands out as that bad - he'll just claim that it backs up his story that they're friends but is it normal to be emailing female colleagues all day and into the evening when you're at home with your wife and dd?

mrscraig Wed 24-Jul-13 21:35:57

I think my advice would be to trust your instincts. I have recently uncovered my dh's affair with a colleague. I wish I had trusted my instincts and not doubted myself. In the end I found out as my instinct was screaming at me to investigate further.
Emailing and texting that early is not normal.
I'm sorry you're in this position. Don't let him distrust yourself.
Sending you lots of love. Be strong.

No it's not normal. I'm sorry op.

amijustparanoid Wed 24-Jul-13 22:00:28

mrscraig - how did you find out for sure?

mrscraig Wed 24-Jul-13 22:11:16

He always had his phone on him. Even first thing in the morning. I didn't know the pin, so watched carefully. Then one morning sneaked a look and found a long stream of texts they'd been sending each other over the course of a day and night, including one at 8.15 that morning. And photos too. Have you checked those?
The shock I felt left me reeling and I was physically sick. If I had had the presence of mind I would have checked further.
It was more how he'd been behaving more than anything else. The texts just confirmed it. I had thought I was going mad.
What are your instincts telling you? Put your trust in them. My husband was someone I trusted above anyone which is why I doubted myself for so long. The only person to trust is yourself. Good luck x

I'm very sorry - that IS a lot of emails in one day. One of my colleagues gets a bit chatty/flirty in emails/texts from time to time but I always feel a little uncomfortable about it and usually close the conversation down/forget to reply. It would never get to a string of 20 emails in a day.

It might not be a physical affair but it does sound at least quite like an emotional affair. The work trip away is a bit worrying. I'm sorry I have no idea what you should do.

Notafixer Wed 24-Jul-13 22:18:36

I don't think that volume of emails is normal I'm afraid. The only time I've sent that many to a single colleague is if we fancy each other! What's your DP's job like, is it unusual for him to be able to twiddle his thumbs and send flirty emails all day, or is he prioritising contact with her?

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 24-Jul-13 22:22:55

Get this book:

shirley glass

It could be an emotional affair that's about to become physical although I am not sure because of the thigh squeeze and sharing of drinks that they haven't shagged yet...as it is he is investing more energy and time into her than in his marriage and that is a huge red flag.

bico Wed 24-Jul-13 22:28:00

I work in a very male dominated business and view male colleagues as friends. However if one of them squeezed my thigh and drank some of my drink I'd be saying loudly what on earth do you think you are doing? It isn't the usual behaviour of a work colleague no matter how many hours you spend together per week (and I travel a lot with my male colleagues and have many hours alone with them as a result).

I'd add that I would only expect to hear from a married male work colleague in the evenings if it was work related and that would be very apparent from the email content. Not unusual as the business I work in means we are on call 24/7. Social chitchat with female work colleagues is usually on BBM as it doesn't leave a trail that the IT dept can read.

onefewernow Wed 24-Jul-13 22:37:42

20 emails after what happened ? And after he said " She' s ok I suppose".

You know that isn't normal. It isn't, is it?

Twinklestein Wed 24-Jul-13 22:44:19

20 emails in 12 hours would be fine between partners.

He should be sending those emails to you.

thismousebites Wed 24-Jul-13 22:57:31

With regards to his work mates. do you know any of them or their wives/partners? Are his friends your friends? Would any of them tell you if they had noticed any funny goings on between your DH and this woman?

WinkyWinkola Wed 24-Jul-13 23:06:16

You're not paranoid.

You're very astute. Squeezing thighs is a big deal IMO. And the rest. Emailing one person so much. Gosh. Who has time for that?

Perhaps a "I know what's going on. Have a long hard think about what you're going to lose"conversation is necessary. Because I will get what is best for my children." conversation is required.

Scare him a little. Does he know what he has to lose?

Smilehappy Wed 24-Jul-13 23:33:31

Doesn't sound to good. I don't think I could deal with him going away on business with herhmmconfused keep us updated, I truly hope it is nothing!! Hand holding thanksXxx

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Wed 24-Jul-13 23:35:45

she's younger than us, in a more junior position to DH which will make him look bloody silly if it does all happen to be innocent looking increasingly unlikely but he's bombarding her with emails not to mention being flirty at the office party. Employers these days normally take a dim view if their staff complain about harassment.

That might be a way to raise the question. Innocently put it to him that something someone has said to you (on MN but don't mention that bit) makes you wonder if she 'might have a thing for him'. Point out he'd better be careful when working away with her next week. It is nice for her to have an older man as a mentor but could look very awkward if there's any sighting of them cosy at the hotel. If someone got the wrong idea it could lead to trouble especially in a gossipy office where people tend to think there's no smoke without fire.

Btw are you sure he doesn't know you post on MN? Are you careful logging out and deleting history?

clam Wed 24-Jul-13 23:50:29

As someone else pointed out, he's got a lot to lose. You and daily access to his dd, first of all, but also possibly his job. Might be worth mentioning that to him.

Apileofballyhoo Wed 24-Jul-13 23:51:01

I'm sorry OP. All that emailing is definitely something. Would you ask him straight out? How is your relationship in general?

Aldwick Thu 25-Jul-13 00:15:00

Do you have a good friend you could confide in who could go to the hotel for you? I'm so sorry you're going through this - I sadly think your instincts are spot on.

mrscraig Thu 25-Jul-13 07:25:25

Aldwicks suggestion is a good one.
How are you feeling this morning?

joblot Thu 25-Jul-13 08:06:29

You don't email anyone that frequently UNLESS you want to impress and flirt or somethings very amiss. So either they are having an affair or they're about to- it's most unusual behaviour

Eglute Thu 25-Jul-13 09:52:54

I felt sick myself after reading that they send 20 + emails even when he is at home.

Sorry to say that but if you think that it is normal you must be really blind. If they were not physical yet they will be soon. So you better talk to him about it but I am afraid it doesn’t look good..

I have been cheated on in the past and I know how horrible it is. That's why I never checked my ex's phone. I didn't want to find anything that could hurt me..

And finally I decided to stay single. I have been single for more than 2 years now and have never been happier in my life smile As long as you have single friends life is really great smile

Oscalito Thu 25-Jul-13 14:36:16

Agree with others that it's a flirtation and possibly more. It's a gut instinct thing, having been there myself, you know when something is up.

Sending emails back and forth all day and teasing about new glasses etc is not work banter, it's flirting. Plus his deleting them shows he has something to hide.

I'm sorry. sad. I know how shit it feels.

He may just be caught up in a stupid flirtation he hasn't thought through properly. I agree with aldwick that it's worth reminding him of how much he has to lose. Try and stay calm and look after yourself and your DD. He's being a bit of an idiot but you don't know for sure he's having a physical affair with her.

Jan45 Thu 25-Jul-13 15:11:37

Don't stand for this any longer, the amount of disrespect he is showing you is astounding. I don't often say this but I'd be asking him to move out, he's blatantly contacting this OW on a constant basis, what's normal about that?

Sorry but I assume you already have reminded him of what he's got to lose, you actually need to follow through with it now, maybe it's the wake up call he needs, I couldn't even be near a man that was treating me in such low regard.

mittensthekitten Thu 25-Jul-13 16:06:10

Woah - asking him to move out because he did a slightly inappropriate thing while drunk and had a 'slightly' flirty e-mail chat with a colleague?!

If this was a bloke that he'd been talking to would you be concerned?

Sorry to piss on the bonfire of the LTB crew, but I think it sounds like work colleagues who like each other and get on. It doesn't mean there's anything going on - men and women are allowed to be friends.

Smilehappy Thu 25-Jul-13 16:10:06

Hey OP, how are you getting on today? Any update? Xthanks

SawofftheOW Thu 25-Jul-13 16:16:13

Was he due to have new glasses or is he doing the usual of taking more care over his appearance, wearing aftershave to work etc? Have you noticed that he pays more attention to his grooming lately? Agree with Jan45, he is being astonishingly disrespectful of you. He is now treating you like a 'non person', someone of NO consequence and sod what he does with this OW. He - apparently - has the right to be in touch with her in this way. Well, yes, of course he does - but not on your watch and in your marital space. You sound lovely and so vulnerable but you need to square up to him on this one. This is bullying and contempt of the highest order. Please understand your own value and impress upon him that this stops, right now. However, having been in the same situation myself, I know full well that when you are replaced (which effectively you have been, and certainly in emotional terms), your concerns, feelings and wishes become as nothing to the betraying partner. He is in his bubble world which is highly addictive and only a profound shock, such as you saying 'get out, now' can usually crack open the casing of the 'bubble'. But be prepared that even then, the addiction to the affair can usually only be broken by complete no-contact and when he works with her, it is the worst of all scenarios. x

Jan45 Thu 25-Jul-13 16:20:01

Had another go on the phone and found an email - all the ones before it had been deleted but it was a trail of probably about twenty starting at 8 this morning with the latest one 30 mins ago so they've been emailing back and forth all day.

My response was to above, not the initial post, he knows how she feels about what happened at the party and now this - you think 20 messages in one day is normal?

FourLittleDudes Thu 25-Jul-13 16:37:25

My ex had a blackberry and when I suspected he was cheating I set his emails to automatically forward to an email account I had set up. I think I put the words t mobile or blackberry in the address just incase he happened to see it, I hoped he would just glance over it, the only way he would r seen it though was to go through his email settings.

I got the evidence I needed and he never found out that I had set them to forward.

ShedWood Thu 25-Jul-13 17:09:17

Fourlittledudes that's a clever idea, OP could you do something like that.

The course is 3 hours away from you, but it's bound to be near a MN-er, in fact someone on here could even work there/be staying there that could see what they're up to...

But that is a long shot and the reality is now that you're in a relationship with a man you no longer trust, who is spending an inappropriate amount of time, thought and energy on another woman - you know that's enough to confront him with, don't you?

He is making you unhappy, so sit him down and calmly explain how awful his behaviour is professionally and as a married man and if he should be horrified, if he's not you will know that having contact with this OW is more important than your feelings so then you ask him to leave.

JustinBsMum Thu 25-Jul-13 18:18:12

When DH was too friendly with a much younger colleague I threatened to speak to his bosses. Heh heh (not in a calm and reasonable way!)That did not please him.....

He was feeling unappreciated and being a prat imv. I was busy with teenage DCs and a new job but he must have felt I didn't give him enough attention, when I what I wanted was help with home stuff, not another stroppy child!

Anyway we are still together 10 years on.

amijustparanoid Thu 25-Jul-13 20:26:34

Thanks everyone - not feeling much better I'm afraid although have decided I can't ignore it anymore and am going to have to talk to him about it.

Got another look at the blackberry - there's a few back and forth between them today but they're mainly work related. They still make me uneasy - it's hard to put my finger on it as I can't pick any one thing and say 'this is too flirty' or whatever but it's just the way they seem to talk to each other - it seems very casual and informal even when about work stuff. I wouldn't talk to someone senior at my work in the way she talks to him. There was also a reference to a pub lunch which makes me think they've been out just the two of them.

Don't know how to bring it up with dh without him just trying to convince me there's nothing wrong with it and just making sure he deletes everything from now on. I know for example if I say I'm not comfortable with him going to lunch with her that he'll bring up the fact that I've done the same thing (occasional lunches with male colleagues although I always tell him about them)

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 25-Jul-13 20:28:56

I think I would go in hard - not giving any information away - so something like;

I know. Now I want you to tell me how long it's been going on for and what you are doing about stopping it.

When he blusters and denies I would just insist I know - while letting it be implied that you have been given incontrovertible evidence. If he continued to deny I would threaten hr and solicitor the next morning.

But then I'm pretty certain he is shagging her. You might not be yet.

amijustparanoid Thu 25-Jul-13 20:45:04

Thisisaeuphemism - why are you certain they're shagging? I know it looks bad and i'm worried but I don't think he's gone that far - I think he's just getting too close to her.

NanaNina Thu 25-Jul-13 21:04:21

The only people who know what is going on is your DH and the female under discussion. I have to say that I have changed my opinion, as I felt everyone was jumping to conclusions, but all the e mails have made me wonder whether they are "too close" or on the brink of a r/ship - I don't know. The thing is (and this is not excusing your DH or any other man) they do tend to be very susceptible from attention/flattery especially from someone younger than themselves. She may be flattered that someone who is senior to her is showing so much interest in her.

I have been cheated on (many years ago) and I forgave him but it made me feel SO angry and miserable for so long. It was before the days of texts but bloody letters were coming from her.........the best piece of advice I can offer is to watch to see if he is behaving "out of the ordinary/out of character" as for me this was what finally made me realise. I agree with others to watch if he is taking more care in his personal appearance and you will no doubt see what he is packing. If by the time he goes next week you are still worried, how about slipping a note into his suit case to the effect that you suspect him and this girl are on the brink of an affair, or something similar. This would surely spoil it for him if they were thinking of any hanky-panky, OK it would also give him thinking time of how to deny it to you, and I'm afraid they usually do deny it, but they way they do it is important, and their body language is important.

I really hope for you that this is innocent and I agree you do sound like a lovely rational person.

I'm sorry. Is your dh a very tactile person? My dh is not I guess and there is just no way he would ever squeeze someone's thigh unless they were having sex.

If they are not shagging then he has massive massive inappropriate boundaries with a junior staff member- and that would disturb me equally I'm afraid.

amijustparanoid Thu 25-Jul-13 21:28:32

I've talked to him - couldn't do the 'I know' thing as I was sure he would just deny it and really, I don't actually know that much.

I made an excuse to look at his phone and didn't give him a chance to say no - he let me but did look quite worried and fidgety. I read todays emails again and asked him about the lunch comment - he said that they'd 'popped out' for lunch a few weeks ago. I asked why it had just been them and no one else and he said no one else had wanted to go but he looked so shifty it was obvious he was lying and they hadn't asked anyone else

Then he did exactly as I thought - said that they were just 'friendly colleagues' and how was it any different to when I did the same. I said it was the secrecy that upset me - that if they were such 'friendly colleagues' who talked everyday and went for lunch and emailed in the evenings (one was still there from yesterday) why did I only hear about her last week. I said it made me worry what else they were doing that he wasn't telling me about. He got a bit frustrated - said he didn't think I wanted to hear everything about his work, that he didn't tell me the days he went for lunch with male colleagues so he didn't think to tell me when he went with her.

So now I don't know - I've always had male friends and said that male/female friendships can be purely platonic and now the first female friend he has that I don't know and I'm worrying.

My own colleagues didn't exactly help today though - I vaguely brought up the topic (didn't tell them I was talking about my dh) and their general consensus was that married men don't spend time developing friendships with women unless they're after something. sad Do you think that's true?

I've told him I want him to have more boundaries - that even if nothing is going on she or other people at work may get the wrong idea and I've downloaded Shirley Glass and asked him to read some of it with me. He reluctantly agreed but now I don't even know what are reasonable boundaries to ask him to keep.

Feels like such a mess

And no - he's not generally overly tactile

God sorry for the jumbled essay - am going round in circles here

ProphetOfDoom Thu 25-Jul-13 21:30:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Thu 25-Jul-13 21:34:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TwoCrazyKids Thu 25-Jul-13 21:35:38

Amiparonoid, I'm so sorry your going through this. When is dh going away?

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 25-Jul-13 21:40:11

Re reasonable boundaries - the quiz I have linked to earlier should help. Examples would include secrecy re extent of "friendship" and sharing confidences.

I hope you made him aware that he is putting his own job at massive risk by being too friendly with a junior female member of staff...

I'm sorry. I have lurked on this board to know that when a woman writes here of her suspicions that he is having an affair "although he can't be" in 99.999% of cases they are right. I can't think of any thread I've read where the woman got it wrong.

And the men always deny it. Well they would. wouldnt they.

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 25-Jul-13 21:41:40

Yes, they always deny and minimise - they know what they stand to lose sad

Silverfoxballs Thu 25-Jul-13 21:46:59

Men and women can be friends but no one squeezes a colleagues thighs ever it is so inappropriate.

He is going to drive you potty with the amount of bs that is going to spout forth. You need advice on here on how to bust him.

dontyouwantmebaby Thu 25-Jul-13 21:55:52

so was it just flat out denial that he had squeezed her thigh that time you confronted him?

am so sorry OP, I really feel for you but I think this is a case of easy intimacy coupled with complacency on their part (signalling something friendship/fliratation he has been keeping from you has been going on for a while) plus your gut instinct/suspicions all point to something going on.

i too would ask him to leave so that you can have some space. Don't let it eat you up about him going away on a course next week - fuck that. If he can ride roughshod over your feelings, don't stand for it. Take charge, call the shots. Let's face it - if the situation were reversed, how would your husband react if he'd seen you acting this way with a male colleague? including all the bloody texts and emails?

(and I say this as someone who worked in a male-dominated environment, had loads of married male colleagues, a few I now consider good friends so can see the other side of it iyswim)

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Thu 25-Jul-13 22:03:47

Bravely done OP that was a difficult but necessary step.

Twinklestein Thu 25-Jul-13 22:08:31

Friends is one thing - thigh squeezing, the casual intimacy of sharing a glass, and 20 texts over 12 hours - is another.

It's perfectly reasonable, given your fears (which may well be justified) to ask him to have no contact with her. No emails, no pub lunches.

That way he can prove nothing is going on.

See if he can manage to stay away from her.

amijustparanoid Thu 25-Jul-13 22:44:26

He denied it on the night when he was drunk. When I said about it the next day he made out he couldn't remember but then said he was just being friendly and it didn't mean anything

I have asked him not to text or email her in the evening but he works with her - there is no way that he can stop contacting her completely and no way for me to really know what's going on during the day

Doha Thu 25-Jul-13 22:48:44

This is at least an emotional affair if it has not YET become a physical one--sorry OP

Apileofballyhoo Thu 25-Jul-13 22:58:51

I'm sorry, OP. He didn't react in a very reassuring way when you talked to him. Did he agree to no contact outside of work hours? Hope you're ok.

Smilehappy Thu 25-Jul-13 23:07:23

hmmsad

clam Thu 25-Jul-13 23:08:38

Why does he have to contact her in the evenings about work?

I'm sorry but I too think he's lying. Of course men and women can be friends at work or outside, but thigh-squeezing and glass-sharing is crossing a boundary. As someone else said, it's so casual it's eye-poppingly intimate. Which is why it leapt out at you from across the room.
I don't know what you should do. sad Maybe the chat you've had is enough to make him stop and think, so that if it's just at the very early flirty stage he can put an end to it. But that would only happen if he wants it to, and values you and your marriage above her. Let's hope he still does.
Or, if he's telling the truth and they are just mates, then it shouldn't be any hardship for him to keep his distance to avoid upsetting you. This happened to us once, years ago - I got irrationally paranoid about some random woman dh knew, and chucked my toys out of the pram. There really was nothing going on but because I'm not usually the jealous type, dh was horrified to see me so upset and dropped her straightaway. As he said, he barely knew her although she was good fun but the odd drink after work with her (and others, as it turned out, was certainly not worth it as I came first. I really hope your dh can do the same thing.

amijustparanoid Thu 25-Jul-13 23:35:05

He doesn't have to contact her - the evening ones were not about work

He says he won't anymore

Doha Thu 25-Jul-13 23:45:17

Yes he will... he will just be more clever so you won't catch him. Please do not let your guard down.
The with level of contact that he has had recently outwith work is huge and will be a very hard habit to break.
Has he made any comment about working with her ? will he continue to go for lunch etc with her, will he continue to squeeze her thigh when they meet up outside work.
Be wary OP very very wary of the promise.

mittensthekitten Thu 25-Jul-13 23:59:27

OP I think that Mumsnet can be VERY poisonous about this kind of stuff sometimes. Seriously - you've had people say 'I'm sure they're shagging even if you're not yet' and telling you to leave him or make him leave. Really - based on barely any knowledge of the people involved and zero evidence that they're having an affair. Be very careful about reading too much into these replies.

He did a couple of inappropriate things whilst drunk, yes - I've seen tons of men be a bit too 'in your personal space' when drunk and that could easily include the squeeze and the drinking from someone else's glass. Not acceptable but not an affair.

And the e-mail swapping - they like each other. Is that really a crime? Ask yourself again if ANYTHING in this would make you feel uncomfortable if this was a male colleague - it wouldn't, would it? Your problem with her rests solely in the fact that he likes her and that she has a vagina. You've even admitted to going for lunch with male colleagues. How is this different?

Why is it a problem for him to contact a friend from work after work? They're not saying inappropriately flirty or intimate things, they're just chatting. Plenty of blokes would text or e-mail colleagues after work about non work-related things. Your jealous behaviour is the most damaging thing going on here.

timeforgin Fri 26-Jul-13 00:01:00

I just read this thread.

I sometimes e-mail in the evenings with work colleagues (95% of which are male), just for banter. I would (and do) go out to lunch with my closest work colleague, who is a happily married man with two kids. I am happily married with children. I would drink from his drink (tho would probs tell / ask him first!). He prob wouldn't squeeze my thigh - I can't imagine him doing that. There has never been anything sexual between us, and I have know him for years.

I guess I am just saying some of this stuff sounds a bit circumstantial and/ or normal to me. The thigh squeezing does seem a bit out of place from what you have said. And also he hasn't known her that long so I can see why you would query the basis for such familiarity.

But he could be telling the truth!

Silverfoxballs Fri 26-Jul-13 00:06:24

I have been out to dinner and for coffee with with male colleagues lots of times, no thigh squeezing and loads of emails back and forth nor drinking from their glass though. That's the difference Mittens

mittensthekitten Fri 26-Jul-13 00:10:07

That's you, though, Silver - that doesn't mean that if a man gets drunk and a bit over friendly or that if work colleagues enjoy a bit of e-mail banter during the day/eve that they are definitely shagging and that she should leave her partner!

joblot Fri 26-Jul-13 00:23:19

Mittens- try a bit of reading between lines. Why post if your gut hasn't lurched? And if it lurches, usually that's because you SENSE something is amiss. But yes indeed it's a much happier outcome if shes wrong/has diarrhea.

Human relationships aren't black and white, and when you've been on the end of lying and cheating you realize that the gut is your friend, despite what your dp says

dontyouwantmebaby Fri 26-Jul-13 00:36:39

mittens

"He did a couple of inappropriate things whilst drunk, yes - I've seen tons of men be a bit too 'in your personal space' when drunk and that could easily include the squeeze and the drinking from someone else's glass. Not acceptable but not an affair."

riiiiiiiiiight mittens, so you've seen TONS of MEN be a bit too much blah blah blah whilst drunk. fair enough. that could EASILY include the squeeze and the drinking from someone else's glass yadda yadda.

bet the OP's husband wouldn't be quite so keen if he'd witnessed a male colleague squeeze his wife's thigh and blithely drink from her glass.

I'd be mortified if one of my long-standing male colleagues (that I treat as a really good friend now, we text, email regularly etc) touched my thigh or drank from my glass.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 26-Jul-13 01:36:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Namechangingnorma Fri 26-Jul-13 07:33:52

Sorry you are in this situation, it's shit. Have you thought about the possibility that actually there is no interest from her side at all, could just be that being friendly with a more senior colleague might be good for her career. Also, she may feel that if she said something to hom about 'friendly squeezes' etc it may be bad for her career. Might actually be nothing going on at all, doesnt make his behaviour acceptable though

It's incredible, Kittens, that you can say: "OP I think that Mumsnet can be VERY poisonous about this kind of stuff sometimes." and then give your interpretation of events: "Your jealous behaviour is the most damaging thing going on here."

I can't think of anything more poisonous than to dismiss someone's very realistic concerns as paranoia.

Op, when you confronted him, he was 'worried, fidgety, shifty'. Doesn't sound like an innocent friendship. You know you husband and you know something is up. In fact, you said you know it was obvious he was lying.

I don't think he will tell you the truth - I suppose the alternatives at this stage are taking action without any hard evidence - although your intuition is very powerful - keep digging or to do nothing. Good luck OP.

Twinklestein Fri 26-Jul-13 09:44:43

@Thisisaeuphemism: I was going to exactly the same thing Euphemism re Kittens' comment. The OP's concerns are absolutely valid, to suggest she's merely jealous is disgraceful.

Clearly, there's no hard evidence of cheating and I really hope he isn't. But this is a situation that he needs thoroughly to step away from to reassure the OP.

Jan45 Fri 26-Jul-13 10:30:58

The OP is paranoid and jealous??? Thigh sqeezing, sharing a drink, 20 texts a day even though they work together starting at 8am into the evening - yeah sounds really normal and innocent.

thismousebites Fri 26-Jul-13 10:51:32

If they've not slept together yet, it is only a matter if time, I'm afraid.
He acted shifty and looked worried when you asked to see his phone. If he has nothing to hide why act that way?
We all email our work colleagues if we are friends, but every evening and only to her? No way is that just innocent shit.
You should have made it clear to him that if he did not stop twatting around with her like some teenager with a stupid crush, then he would find you and DC gone as you refuse to be treated like something that fell off a Christmas tree.
You have let him know that you are suspicious about him and her, but you should have gone in harder. All that will happen now is that he will try to be more careful and will email in private and delete quick.

JustinBsMum Fri 26-Jul-13 11:33:36

Good move, OP, hopefully it will die a death now.

NanaNina Fri 26-Jul-13 11:59:34

Yes I was going to comment on the absurd remark by kittens that it was the OP's jealousy that was the problem, but see other have already done so.

I think AIBP that the most telling thing is that he was looking "shifty" "worried" and I think you said uncomfortable when you were looking at the phone and about the lunch. I think we can tell such a lot about what people are saying by their body language. OK there are some generalisations, but the eyes tell you a lot, and people who are lying often have lids closed for just a bit longer than normal, or look in the opposite direction. Arms outstretched and open palms usually indicates truthfulness. Sorry I know this isn't much help, but you already know for yourself that he was lying about the lunch and I think it's important that you saw that for yourself, because no matter what we all say, we only know about these details from a few lines of your text.

I think the people urging you to leave him etc will always be around and of course that is a complete over reaction. However I do think AI that you are to some extent in denial and are pushing away the thoughts that there is something not right here, and that's a common defence mechanism when we are trying to protect ourselves from hurt.

Lets hope that the talk you had last night will bring him to his senses, but there is no knowing about that. I so hope it does.

VodkaJelly Fri 26-Jul-13 12:48:54

I have to attend functions with colleagues through work and I work with plenty of men who I am good friends with. I, however, would have a shit fit if they tried to drink from my glass or squeezed my thigh. Totally intimate behaviour and I reserve this intimacy for my DP.

Despite what Mittens thinks, if your senses are screaming that something is wrong then you are not a paranoid jealous wife but somebody who has noticed something inappopriate between her husband and another woman.
Your instincts are there for a reason and your husbands behaviour has set alarm bells off.

And the difference for the OP going for a lunch with a male colleague is that she told her husband. My DP knew I went for lunch with my male colleague, i told him the day before and he was fine with it.

I dont know if he is sleeping with her or they are having an EA, but if your gut is telling you something is wrong then listen to it.

And you are calmer than me, if my DP did that to another woman in my sight i would have been over there in a flash and demanded to know what the hell was going on.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Fri 26-Jul-13 12:59:13

Allowing for the right of all OPs to have editorial control over relating what happens etc etc and from a standpoint of taking what any OP discloses in good faith, it seems her H didn't call her paranoid or jealous when she broached the subject.

clam Fri 26-Jul-13 14:39:08

Initially he "made light of it," then he "acted like he couldn't remember it," then he "got a bit annoyed" when she asked more questions about it.

You see, how much more reassuring would it have been for the OP if, when she'd pointed out what she'd seen, even if he couldn't remember it happening (which is a load of shite by the way), he'd have said something along the lines of, "You're right, that probably was inappropriate, I'm sorry you were upset, it won't happen again."

debiliem58 Fri 26-Jul-13 16:15:45

I feel there is too much focus on him and not her on that particular night, was she drunk - is it appropriate behaviour for another woman to allow a man to drink from her glass in front of the wife?.
Sitting next to her - could be a smoke screen.
You need to look at other behaviours on a daily basis. Kissing and affection becomes less. They become more involved in their appearance - little changes like shopping for new underpants. The other woman usually doesn't make contact at weekend it's understood as family time. He'll keep his mobile close at hand and with a PIN lock. They start doing and saying things that seem a bit odd, they can't give straight answers or give a confusing answer. When you question them they answer slowly - they have to think about what they are saying, their hand usually goes to the back of the neck and they look up to the right. They answer with questions - so you thought I drank from her glass? - playing for time need to think how to reply.
If you should see any odd behaviour, try don't confront him but silently observe, if he feels you are on to him he will be more careful with his actions making it harder for you. The less you say the more likely he will make slips. Hire a private detective during certain times such as when he is working away, times when it's highly likely he has the opportunity - not during work hours. Does the front passengers get adjusted and you have to readjust it.
Above all else be extra nice to him, by confronting him and being angry will drive him to the other woman if in fact there is another woman. Give yourself some thinking time and a plan. If in fact he is having an affair - and this becomes the really really hard bit. Very calmly confront with the evidence and ask him to leave...... wait...... if he's yours he'll come back if he's not then this exercise will have saved you months of heartache. When he comes back .. forgive... and seek marriage counselling. It's easier to work on the life and the husband you have than to start a new life and a decent new man .....
Men can separate love and sex. This is all intended to help ... I've been there.

Jan45 Fri 26-Jul-13 16:43:33

When he comes back forgive - she may not want to forgive esp if he runs into the arms of another woman.

It's not necessarily easier to work on a marriage than start a new life if the marriage is a complete mess, we all have our limits and for me an affair would be the deal breaker, I'd be more than happy to start a new life with a new man in that case.

clam Fri 26-Jul-13 18:13:31

"Be extra nice to him???"

Are you serious?!!!!

He'd have his testicles stuffed up his rectum in my house. No one treats me like that. He'd be out on his ear if he thought for one moment he cold behave in that way. It astounds me the lack of self-respect some women have.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Fri 26-Jul-13 18:25:43

I take on board some of your points debiliem58 and I am sorry if you have had your share of heartache. But the trouble with the "be nice or it'll drive him into the arms of another woman" line of thinking is flawed imo. Off his own bat he has already wandered off the path.

Like him, OP works, she has the stresses of a home and 3 year old. Has it crossed his mind she too might think, oh to be fancy free and indulge in some me-time? Would he be 'extra nice' if he spotted her squeezing a colleague's thigh and drinking from his glass days before an away trip, let alone the daily high volume email traffic? If she meekly says nothing and adopts a oh well boys will be boys attitude he might imagine he is scot free to carry on.

Having tackled him he will not be in any doubt now she has put him on warning. If it is all still far short of anything physical he won't have the excuse of starting anything claiming his wife is indifferent or uncaring.

AnyFucker Fri 26-Jul-13 19:17:57

Deb is also to be found elsewhere on the site giving us the benefit of her 1950's viewpoint

Best ignored

thismousebites Fri 26-Jul-13 21:52:06

How are things this evening OP?
Has your DH been on his phone as usual?
Hope you're okay.

definitelypuzzled Fri 26-Jul-13 22:14:19

I am going to play the devil's advocate here, but OP story is very similar to the way one of my past male colleague reacted to their female work colleagues, including me and there was definitely nothing untoward in it. It was friendly banter and I do not know anyone who is more happily married than this man. He would never cheat on his wife, he was just a bit 'touchy-feely' and liked a banter.

I can see why OP is suspicious but I don't think there is anywhere near 100% proof of guilt.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 01:04:26

But the OP has said that her dh is not usually the touchy-feely type.

amijustparanoid Sat 27-Jul-13 13:49:23

Things aren't good - all unravelled last night and he's admitted that he's too involved with her.

He came home from work, picked an argument with me then went out drinking with his brother and came home stupidly drunk. Tried to pick another argument saying I'd made this week hell for him by being obsessed with her (we only talked about her at the weekend and the night I read the emails, I haven't been going on about it all week). I got upset with how he was being and then he ended up changing his story and just blurted it out. He was very drunk and not making complete sense but said that I was right and he was too close to her.

I asked him if it had been physical, he said once, although they hadn't had sex. He didn't make much sense about how far they'd gone, said that they'd done 'some stuff' but apparently she'd stopped it. Said that since then they hadn't been physical again.

He seemed panicked about it all, was upset, said he can't lose me and dd over this, that she doesn't mean anything to him and he doesn't want to be with her

I don’t know what to do.

He slept on the sofa and I haven't seen him today as I was up early to take dd to an activity and now I've just dropped her at my Mums (was planned for her to stay there anyway). Know we need to talk more but not sure I can face it yet.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 13:52:31

Oh dear. hmm
Hugs to you. Be strong. We're here if you need us.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sat 27-Jul-13 13:55:10

I have been thinking about this thread. I have a close male colleague who will give me a kiss ( on the cheek obviously) and says "love you" to me. I will probably be flamed for this but it honestly is totally platonic. I am friends with his wife and our children are friends. He is my closest work ally and I introduced him to the firm. He is like a sibling to me- I am an only child. I really value this male friendship. If anyone else wondered if something was up I would think it was hilarious.

What I am saying to you in this lengthy preamble is that it might be nothing. But agree trust your instincts. I could have lunch with this friend everyday and my answers to that Shirley glass quiz would always be fine. There are other male colleagues where I would keep my distance and a sudden interest in lunches and emails would be very weird. It's hard to explain and you can't put any scientific logic around it. But some relationships are just different.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sat 27-Jul-13 13:55:49

Shit I missed your post.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 13:59:37

And I'm sorry to say this but please know that he will minimise. He has already, after all. Earlier this week he'd "not really noticed her" or something along those lines. That was a lie.
And if he's saying she stopped 'it,' whatever 'it' was, going further, is he saying he would have otherwise? I'm afraid I don't believe him anyway.

drasticpark Sat 27-Jul-13 14:00:30

So sorry to hear this. It always takes time for the truth to unravel in these situations. There may be more yet to come unfortunately. I feel for you. It is so very painful.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 14:03:00

So, he "can't lose you over this?" Not really up to him anymore though, is it? And he should have thought of that before, anyway. And he was prepared to fool around and jeopardise your marriage with someone he doesn't even care much about? Charming.

Xales Sat 27-Jul-13 14:08:32

Most cheaters minimise.

First off they are just work colleagues - ring a bell?
Then they had the odd lunch or two - ring a bell?
Then they are friends...
Then it was just a hug and a kiss...
Then well they were going to but stopped - ring a bell?
Then it was just the once...

Long point short they never ever seem to just say 'you got me we have been shagging like rabbits for the last 6 months.'

The really sad thing is if she did stop them going all the way that he didn't. He would have.

Right now you cannot believe him. He is going to say what he thinks he has to say to you to keep the cosy family he has.

She doesn't mean anything to him but he was interested enough to risk losing you and DD. It is only now he is saying that. It didn't cross his mind when he was trying to have sex with her.

Please go and get a full STI check out and don't go near him until he has too.

Good luck /hugs

Lucylloyd13 Sat 27-Jul-13 14:23:01

I agree with those who say the drink sharing is the bigger worry. You only do that with people you are very intimate with

ProphetOfDoom Sat 27-Jul-13 14:28:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sat 27-Jul-13 14:31:31

sad

tessa6 Sat 27-Jul-13 14:37:37

Thank god he's admitted something. Bear in mind this is all 'script' so far, automatic behaviour and conversation born out of the crisis. He probably has no idea how he really feels, who he wants to be with and he certainly will not be telling you the whole truth.

ProphetOfDoom Sat 27-Jul-13 14:45:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Sat 27-Jul-13 14:54:23

He has admitted enough so you know you weren't imagining this. Minimising is likely. I am glad DD is out so you can focus on what next.

He is aware he crossed a line. Confession is good for the soul but it doesn't mean he stops right there. Now the hard work begins.

You have handled this so well.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 14:58:50

Anyone else feel sorry for this bloke, having his week 'made hell' for him by a paranoid wife 'obsessing' about realising that her husband is quite likely shagging someone else?

His self-absorption knows no bounds.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 27-Jul-13 15:01:24

Just to show always trust your instincts. So sorry sad

I agree that he is still minimising.

How awful that it was her who stopped things from going any further and not him.

Please remember NONE of this is your fault - even if there were relationship issues, he could have talked to you, dragged you to relate rather than choose to have an affair.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 27-Jul-13 15:05:39

And remember he chose to throw away his marriage - so what happens next is YOUR decision.

Ruprekt Sat 27-Jul-13 15:09:33

You trusted your instincts and were right.

Am so sorry OP. sad

Apileofballyhoo Sat 27-Jul-13 15:25:18

oh shit OP, I'm sorry. I can't imagine how much pain you must be in.

amijustparanoid Sat 27-Jul-13 15:31:19

We have talked more but haven't got anywhere. Last night he was so drunk he was just blurting stuff out but now he's gone back to minimising it all.

I do believe he hasn't had sex with her because what he told me last night was just as bad as if he had, that he'd have done it if she hadn't stopped it. Today he described it as a 'drunken fumble' I think all week I'd been trying to tell myself that he may have got innocently close and not realised that it was going too far but knowing this happened weeks ago and instead of stepping back he continued and was obviously still pursuing it with the thigh squeeze etc. makes it so much harder for me to think about forgiving him.

He says he's sorry and that he'll stop all contact with her apart from work but still doesn't seem to think it was that awful. What he does makes it difficult to just move but don't know if I can live with them working together.

I've told him to leave for tonight. I just want to be on my own. When I asked if he was going to her, he said she had a boyfriend and that it had never been like that, they've never talked about being together it was just a friendship that went too far.

I don't understand why she got involved either

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Sat 27-Jul-13 15:53:10

I wondered if he told his brother who gave him a bollocking and suggested he own up. In the cold light of day H backpedals because he thinks he may yet convince OP she is overreacting. What part of "crossed a line" does he not get? Is he still going on that trip? Is he more worried about losing face at work if this gets out? Hardly an abject apology.

I was going to say at least he didn't swear on DD's life he was blameless. If he utters that he is taking you for a bigger fool.

Apileofballyhoo Sat 27-Jul-13 16:42:46

The fact that he doesn't think it was that awful is very worrying. It is awful. It is really really awful. Thinking it is not a big deal shows a disregard for your feelings apart from anything else. Unless deep down he knows it is awful and he is trying to minimise it in his own head? I can't see how you can move on when he doesn't think it's a big deal. Surely he should be very remorseful and asking for forgiveness? And examining the behaviour that led up to something like this? (His own behaviour and perhaps the general state of your relationship etc.) He sounds quite emotionally detached from you.

thismousebites Sat 27-Jul-13 16:53:41

Hate to say this, but LTB.
You will never be able to trust him again, and he doesn't think he's done anything wrong.
It's only a matter of time before you catch him squeezing someone else's thigh.sad

ProphetOfDoom Sat 27-Jul-13 18:13:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tessa6 Sat 27-Jul-13 18:17:35

I'm very sorry, OP. Bear in mind that there's often little logic behind minimising. Often someone will admit to something 'just as bad' emotionally speaking but deny having sex because at least that line hasn't been crossed over for their partner (in terms of pregnancy, STD or just the 'infidelity' line). It doesn't mean he's telling the truth.

Of course he could be but even so, as you say, he had every intention of doing it. And his minimising since is insulting and frustrating. I'd be very wary of you getting any full truth out of him and aim for computer and phone and bills instead.

PopiusTartius Sat 27-Jul-13 18:44:11

I don't believe you've had the full truth from him yet. I'm so sorry.

Twinklestein Sat 27-Jul-13 19:26:10

I'm not convinced that they've not had sex, the casual intimacy that you saw at the party takes some time to develop. I don't know that you'd get it from a one off.

I was struck by your husband saying that "I'd made this week hell for him by being obsessed with her".

It's very odd to accuse you of being obsessed with her, given that you'd not discussed it that much: I wonder if he's attributing to you what's going on in his own head.

Perhaps he's a bit obsessed. I hope it hasn't gone too far physically, and that being caught out makes him come to his senses. I hope, if you want to stick with the marriage this can be fixed.

But if he wants to save his marriage, he's got to come clean.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 19:37:44

I'm in two minds whether to post anymore on this one, as my thoughts are only going to cause more angst for the OP. But you've got to get to the bottom of it all before you'll ever get any peace of mind.

That thigh-squeeze doesn't match up with "a drunken fumble." A drunken fumble indicates something both would rather forget, and therefore no physical touch in public would be necessary. A thigh-squeeze means "I can't talk to you, or touch you properly at the moment because it's not safe but here's a quick reminder that I'm thinking about you."

And "a drunken fumble" is minimising speak for something unacceptable. Any physical groping is very bad for a married/committed person. 'Even' a kiss, in my book.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 27-Jul-13 19:58:03

I agree that his accusation re you having obsession with OW is actually deflection - he is the one who has been obsessed sad

Also no way was it just a drunken fumble - they have been shagging...their easy intimacy is very telling.

I am not one of the LTB brigade but I think the best way to force the truth and this is also your only chance of saving the marriage is to ask him to go away and give you time and space to think things through. He needs to understand what he stands to lose.

welshharpy Sat 27-Jul-13 21:07:08

He is so remorseful he picks an argument with you, blames you for obsessing over this OW, then says a 'fumble' with her wasn't really that bad and he will still be seeing her during work hours but no contact after work?

Yes I am sure that is bound to put your mind at ease hmm

So sorry op x

amijustparanoid Sat 27-Jul-13 21:20:44

Clam - it's hard to hear but I do appreciate everyones thoughts.

I asked him to come back as needed more answers - apparently what he described earlier as a drunken fumble was them sleeping in the same bed and doing practically everything but which to me is just as bad as if they'd done it.

perfectstorm Sat 27-Jul-13 21:34:10

I'm so sorry to say this, but I've read a depressing number of these threads on MN in the 5 years I've been a poster, and 9 times out of 10 the cheater insists they did "everything but" once they've got past the total denial stage.

I used to think the women stating it was an affair from the start were totally over-reacting and I actually used to be annoyed by what I saw as jumping to conclusions on almost no evidence. As time has passed, I don't think I've ever read a single thread where they were wrong, when that has been the near-unanimous response. (I've read two where women were firmly told they were panicking without grounds, and it turned out they were, but not one where people were pretty sure the dirty was being done.)

A one-off drunken fumble, never repeated, doesn't lead to a knee-squeeze and casual drink from the other's glass where the wife is momentarily stepping away from the table. The risk taken to nurture the cheating link, and the disrespect - I am so sorry - for you of that little situation is staggering, and quite disgusting. And I just don't see that arising from a regrettable, one-off, drunken mistake. Nobody risks their wife picking up on that level of intimacy if the intimacy is past, and a one-off, and regretted. (If a one-off, that level of intimacy wouldn't exist, either.)

I think he's still minimising. I don't think this is at all the truth. I think it's as much of the truth as he's willing to offer now, but I think you may need to brace yourself for worse, and I am so bloody sorry. He's a gutless fucker, because if he were just totally honest he would actually do you both and your relationship so many more favours, as someone else so wisely commented.

Xales Sat 27-Jul-13 21:36:36

How can you trust him not to sleep in the same bed on his work away sad does he have to go?

There is still a risk of certain STIs with everything but the actual deed please do consider tests.

clam Sat 27-Jul-13 21:49:52

It just doesn't make sense for them not to have done it. And the casual intimacy of glass-sharing and the thigh squeeze indicates a relationship, not just a one-night thing. And he's testing your reaction by drip-feeding information. There's more to come I'm afraid.

I'm so sorry.

Notafixer Sat 27-Jul-13 22:07:28

I do get the "everything but". I've only cheated on a partner twice but the last time was purposefully kept at everything but.

That said I agree with what everyone else has said about the intimacy, everything else about the way they interact speaks of physical familiarity.

It's possible as well that leaving to be with her isn't an option. She might want to make it work with her boyfriend. She might have gone off your husband. She might be very aware that marrying a mistress creates a vacancy. I think there's a tendency on here to think that the OW is always waiting around waiting to set up house, and that's not the case. I'm not sure why I'm saying this, apart from to be sure he's not just staying with you because she doesn't want to take him on.

Namechangingnorma Sat 27-Jul-13 22:16:36

op so sorry it's turned out this way, you have fantastically honed instincts which will serve you well. if you can take anything from this make sure you keep listening to them

ProphetOfDoom Sat 27-Jul-13 22:17:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thismousebites Sat 27-Jul-13 22:25:49

So your DH says he tried it on, but she stopped it before it got to full sex.
In that case, why did she not move away from him when he squeezed her thigh? surely if she did not want things to go any further she would have rebuked his advances that evening.
He;s feeding you bits in the hope that you won't find out the truth. The less he can get away with admitting, the better it looks for him.

NanaNina Sun 28-Jul-13 00:15:36

So sorry OP - I think the big problem for you now is one of trust - it's practically impossible in my experience to trust someone after something like this, and I do agree with others, that he is drip-feeding you details. It's all very well him saying he will only see her at work, but you are going to be worrying the whole time if they are "popping" out to lunch etc.

You sound very calm and rational when you post, but I wonder what you are feeling underneath.....your must be having all sorts of emotions buzzing around your head. Incidentally does your (D)H have a drink problem as you have mentioned him being drunk on 2 occasions. As for you making his week hell, I wonder if you were able to tell him how you have felt.....are you an assertive type or not. Just wondered.

The trip next week is a work trip isn't it, so he will have to go.

Only thing I can suggest now is that if you want your marriage to continue then your best bet would be to get counselling together, to look at the whole issue of infidelity and the emotions that arises in both of you and looking to the future and the trust issues etc.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 28-Jul-13 07:20:38

This drip feeding is typical - first nothing happened, then it was a drunken fumble and now its bed sharing and everything but....

Even if it was just oral sex (which I doubt), its still sex and carries the risk of STDs.

Its horrible as you don't know what you are going to be hit with next sad

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 28-Jul-13 07:21:07

This drip feeding is typical - first nothing happened, then it was a drunken fumble and now its bed sharing and everything but....

Even if it was just oral sex (which I doubt), its still sex and carries the risk of STDs.

Its horrible as you don't know what you are going to be hit with next sad

mrscraig Sun 28-Jul-13 08:41:33

I have been thinking about you and your situation a lot over the last few days. I was really sorry to read that your instincts proved right. Always always always trust yourself.
Take every minute, hour, day at a time and be kind to yourself.
Have you got someone in rl to talk to?

onefewernow Sun 28-Jul-13 09:03:32

I think he is still lying too. But the worse thing is that having done it at all, he has spent at least a fortnight making you feel so much worse about yourself you to protect his own sorry arse.

That is the horror of affairs- the lying afterwards, the making you doubt yourself and the gas lighting.So disrespectful.

EatYourCrusts Sun 28-Jul-13 09:50:03

Your instincts are telling you something isn't right and everything you have found out adds weight to that. Sorry OP, I don't know what you can do to stop it.

debiliem58 Sun 28-Jul-13 09:56:48

I understand my views can be totally different from the majority of view points posted here and the post regarding my 1950 outlook and best ignored - are you saying ... girls .. this chick doesn't think like us let's send her to Coventry?. We all have a different outlooks on life. Let's fast forward ... divorce, courts, family home sold, whole lifestyle downgraded, family and friends divided, lone parent, double workload and responsibilities, no social life, loneliness, financial struggle, depression. Him - born again bachelor, jumps straight in to his second spring. Father Christmas to the kids who he may or not be able to see... because Jane, June or Jackie, wants him to take her away for the weekend, she's tired after getting that manicure that he treated her. Please don't take me totally literal, your getting the picture. Did all of the above just happen to me ... or did not happen to me?.

Yes.... I'm being as serious as a heart attack when I say be nice to him. It's about being smart ... giving yourself time to plan... take that degree, open a secret bank account, have a few indiscretions yourself..... then you decide when your marriage ends - 1950's outlook?.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Sun 28-Jul-13 10:00:48

Echoes of a well-known public figure. I did not have sex with that woman.

You may have thought you were wed to someone of integrity. It is sad when duplicitous people bank on their partner's faith in them to continue to trust them when faced with very dubious behavioir.

thismousebites Sun 28-Jul-13 10:43:21

Am not making light of OP's situation, but I love the Bill Clinton aside.
Deb do you really think that it would be worse for OP to LTB than to stay and be "nice" to him? I would be far too bloody angry and seething for that to ever happen.
It's shitty when you find out that the person you thought cared and respected you as much as you did them turns out to be a lech who can't control himself. and even worse when they claim that it is you who are making a mountain out of a molehillangry
Best to walk away in order to save what little sanity you have left.

JustinBsMum Sun 28-Jul-13 10:45:06

I would get DCs out of the way for a night and get him to sit down and talk to you. You take turns talking, no shouting. You explain how you feel, perhaps write it down first so you don't forget things, he says what he feels which could be overworked? was he just bored? jealous of DCs? no longer in love with you? has fallen for OW and can't give her up?
You can ask has he thought about the future if you split? Will he be able to live with the hurt he causes DCs? etc etc etc
And try to both thrash out what this is really about. And, as you have all evening, make plans for the future, together or single.

JustinBsMum Sun 28-Jul-13 10:49:20

oh, and repeat as often as required until you feel you have aired everything you want to.

Smilehappy Sun 28-Jul-13 10:55:00

OP I have watched this thread from the start and have on many occasions been thinking of you, I feel so so terrible for you, I can't believe he has done this, especially when you thought everything had been fine prior to the knee grab, it scares me because it means he is a good liar, he was drunk when he felt this woman's leg, he was again drunk when he blurted out what had happened, it seems when he is sober he lies very well and minimises everything, please be weary of this.

If I were in your shoes, if I were to forgive him I'm not sure i could bear them going to work together never mind working trips away, this would indeed be a deal breaker, he needs to decide what is more important, you and DC or OW and work...

I really just want to give you a hug! Chin up xxxthanksthanksthanks

ProphetOfDoom Sun 28-Jul-13 11:01:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 28-Jul-13 11:03:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altostratus Sun 28-Jul-13 11:08:31

Of course they have had sex, but I think the OP probably knows that really. Yes, he's still lying and will try to minimise, especially when sober.

I am sorry, OP.

debiliem58 Sun 28-Jul-13 11:54:22

oops!!! when I came on line I only read as far Debs ... 1950's outlook best ignored and sent the above. Then went back to read the following posts to discover it's out.
Yes ' I did not have sex with that woman' now his wife - very smart woman. Victoria Beckham? - smart woman, mmmmmmh!!! even in the face of public humility?? but why do us smart women this 1950's outlook - what's your views Anyfucker?

perfectstorm Sun 28-Jul-13 12:21:37

Deb, what you seem to advocate is playing games. That's not a relationship I would want to be bothered with in any situation at all: it would damage me, my children and my husband. In addition, the wives you mention had a huge amount of money, status and career opportunity to gain from staying with their husbands, which is not in fact the norm. And there's no indication the OP is married to a serial adulterer, either, so how about you focus on her situation and her needs instead of your own fantasies? If you want to discuss your views then there are plenty of more appropriate places here on MN. Start a thread there. This is about a specific woman in a very hard situation asking for moral and emotional support. Please provide such support, or choose another thread to post in.

amijustparanoid Sun 28-Jul-13 13:00:14

He still doesn't think he had an affair - he describes it as a friendship that crossed the line

Not sure i'll ever be able to trust him again

thismousebites Sun 28-Jul-13 13:11:51

Oh dear! THAT then is your biggest problem.Not the fact that he had an EA or a physical affair, but the fact that he sees no real damage done.

3HotCrossBuns Sun 28-Jul-13 13:12:52

AIJP - I'm so sorry to read what has been happening with your H. I have followed your thread from the start and been prompted to post by your latest post where he state he's still in denial mode. He is failing to recognise the severity of his actions and minimising it which is insulting and disrespectful. He needs to take responsibility for HIS choices in order for there to be any chance of reconciling. You will doubt everything that comes out of his mouth and its extremely unlikely that a man used to lying to you will suddenly be truthful now until he faces the reality of what he stands to lose.
I'm going through something similar - my H 'confessed' his affair to me 12 weeks ago as he was caught at work. After 24hrs of minimising and denying a friend's husband told him in no uncertain terms that he had to be completely honest with me to have any chance. H prepared a 'timeline' and has probably told me maybe 90% of his story. However he has still lied to me about other things since then (his porn use for example) and has also found it easy to hang the blame of the affair on various hooks eg our relationship, me being controlling, his upbringing, low self-esteem, work stress - anything other than him being a selfish entitled twat!! Over the last 2-3 weeks he is beginning to face up to his inner demons but he is still showing that side of himself and has such an incredibly long way to go in his journey of self awareness that I'm almost certain that I'm 'out'.

3HotCrossBuns Sun 28-Jul-13 13:15:49

Sorry posted too early - also meant to say good luck and I hope he sees the extent of what he has done in order to come to his senses. Regardless of what he thinks he should care enough about you to respect your feelings about his actions. And feel sorry for hurting you rather than belittling your pain and distress.

thismousebites Sun 28-Jul-13 13:16:21

OP you need to ask yourself Do you want to save this marriage?
If yes, then you need to sit your DH down and ask him bluntly how he would feel in your shoes. Ask him how he would feel about you going out this evening with a male colleague who you found attractive, and who found you attractive. Who had invited you to go for a meal or a drink with him.
Ask him how THAT would make HIM feel.
If he claims it would not bother him then he obviously sees marriage and all its commitments as unimportant.

ChipsNKetchup Sun 28-Jul-13 13:20:55

So sorry OP, he knows he has done wrong. If she was that close a friend why didn't you know about her earlier? He's not mentioned her much before because he knows it's wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is already suspicion in his work about their relationship. Sitting you both at the same table could be an attempt to deflect this.

If you can't trust him your relationship is doomed. I'd ask him if she was worth imploding his family over, because that's what he's done.

Twinklestein Sun 28-Jul-13 13:21:34

A friendship that crossed the line is an affair. At the very least it's an EA, but his insistence on no sex is unconvincing.

He's minimising because he doesn't want to lose you, and he thinks you would more easily forgive a small mistake than a bigger one. So you must explain that, in fact, in order not to lose you he must come clean about everything and own the damage he's done. That is the only ground on which a relationship can be rebuilt.

You don't trust him or believe him and until you feel satisfied he is telling the truth, there's no way forward.

EatYourCrusts Sun 28-Jul-13 14:00:11

Sorry, when I posted I somehow missed page 2.

Apileofballyhoo Sun 28-Jul-13 14:42:04

I'm sorry you are going through this AIJP. I feel so angry with your H. Not really sure what to say except I'm thinking of you. You have to do what is best for you now. It doesn't sound like he is in a place where he wants to take responsibility for his actions. flowers

amijustparanoid Sun 28-Jul-13 15:19:46

I think he does know how bad it is but won't admit it to me/himself yet. Think he's been telling himself that it wasn't as bad as a full blown 'in love with someone else' affair. He said they were just messing around, he was bored and she paid him attention and he was stupid. I've told him it doesn't make it better, worse if anything that he'd risk us for that if he supposedly doesn't even have any feelings for her (am not sure 'just fun' goes on that long unless you have at least some feelings for someone anyway?)

I do believe they haven't have piv sex but it's been physical, 'everything but' to me is just as bad. I said about the intimacy and it not adding up if she really regretted it why did she still allow him to touch her and continue the messages/flirting etc. He said that he thought she just felt guilty about the physical stuff and thought that was going too far (shame both of them didn't think that a long time ago).

I said for him to continue it all he must have been hoping to change her mind and hoping that something physical would happen again. He didn't really deny it sad Apparently they kissed another time as well. Think I need the proper timeline someone mentioned- all these little things he's adding are driving me crazy.

He says he'll do whatever it takes - he is going to look for another job and is not going to this weeks course. I believe that even if she wanted him that he'd choose us over her, but I worry that what he wants is the family life we have with dd and not me.

Scary thing is that until I saw it with my own eyes a week ago I had no idea, so while I think I have a pretty good idea of when he's lying and not to my face, obviously he's managed to keep all of this from me for months and that scares me.

Sorry if that's all jumbled - despite how it may sound I'm definitely not feeling very calm and collected

tessa6 Sun 28-Jul-13 15:31:11

Please don't forget that liars get to believe the lies they tell themselves too, so it can be hard to tell. The more time he has to think things through the more believable and honest he will seem. Please try and find evidence and corroboration from other sources (people, emails, texts, bills)

welshharpy Sun 28-Jul-13 15:43:41

So he had admitted 'stuff' happened on more than one occasion. It might be worth telling him to stay somewhere else for a few days until YOU decide what YOU want to do and that way you can get some space/clarity.

Think about what you would do if you forgave him this time and he did this again in a few years, could you cope with that?

Personally he has proved himself to be a liar and treated you very shabbily since your first suspicions - not sure if I could ever trust someone again after that. Good luck, Op x

Apileofballyhoo Sun 28-Jul-13 15:44:37

I'm really glad he has said he will do whatever it takes, including looking for a new job and not going on the course. That is a big turn around from the way he was dismissing it at first. I'm just so sorry you've been so hurt. It is very natural for you to be questioning if he really wants you as opposed to the family unit. It is all so fresh and awful now.

It is very important to find out absolutely everything now so as to get it all in the open - it is only from there that you can move on, whichever way that might be. If you were healing having decided to stay in the relationship and you found out new stuff it would be a disaster, more hurt, pain, more mistrust. And for you at this point, you will be making an informed decision as to what you want, which I think you can only do with full disclosure. Again, more information at a later date would only negate any trust you had rebuilt, or make an amicable split much more difficult. He has to see this.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 28-Jul-13 16:26:54

deb - no wonder Victoria looks miserable hmm Playing games is NOT to be recommended if you want honesty and openness in your relationship.

OP - you are getting really good advice from everyone else, if you haven't done so already, get Shirley Glass's Not Just Friends.

Sorry to hear you are going through this.

Your intuition has proved amazing. You knew something wasn't right, and when you confronted him you knew he was lying. Keep trusting yourself.

I would ask him (temporarily) to leave the family home. He sounds very cavalier about what he's done - and I would want to show him that I mean business, and get some thinking space for yourself. He is showing a side to you that you didn't know he had. It must be a horrible shock.

I don't think his story adds up. You know that too, with the kissing bit added now. What else is he going to reveal? You know that he was pursuing her up until last Weds/Thurs eve. 20 messages is in no way backing off. Telling you that she wasn't really interested doesn't really help, does it? He certainly was...

Mixxy Sun 28-Jul-13 16:59:34

Sorry things have gone this way OP. Just a thought- your DH seems to spend an inordinate amount of time drinking, drunk, shit-faced etc. Does he have a problem?

ChipsNKetchup Sun 28-Jul-13 17:01:30

That's what gets to me too euphemism he knew that AIBP was suspicious and upset by what she'd seen but he still carried it on.

SawofftheOW Sun 28-Jul-13 17:20:47

OP, totally agree with everyone who says that he must disclose totally now - now, not in the future, not death by a thousand cuts, but now. As already mentioned, if you discover more down the line - and you will, trust me, as you have already found since your initial suspicions -it will mean that any attempts to rebuild your relationship will have been on foundations of sand.

My DH only admitted to his numerous sexual encounters with his OW some weeks after first confirming an 'EA' (after I had been warned by a phone call from a female colleague of his, bless her), and then only because the OW had threatened to tell me about them, some of which took place in my own home, in a bid to put pressure on him to leave me.

It not only put us back to square one, but it made me realise that virtually everything he had said to me thus far had been only about 20% of the truth. He lied and minimised because he suddenly realised that the entire terrible truth may well lead me to end our marriage; ironically he was still besotted with the OW at the time but was beginning to suspect that what he thought he had with her really was just an illusion and therefore he didn't want to burn his bridges. The problem for me, and for him, was that I had almost driven myself mad with the certainty that it HAD been physical and that they had had much more of a relationship and social life together than he was prepared to admit.

The truth when it came was beyond awful but in a sense it was also a relief because I knew, finally, that I wasn't 'paranoid, obsessed with her, unforgiving' in the way I had claimed up until that point.

And it still goes on - only a couple of weeks ago I came across a note from her in an old work jacket of his I was taking to charity which confirmed that my suspicions I had had about their very last meeting, what they did and where it took place, were totally accurate, despite his vehement denials to that day (nearly three years on). The pain was raw when I read it and I was catapulted back to the early, agonising days post-discovery. When I rang him at work to rage about it (yes, I know, I know - but I am impetuous and hot-tempered), he said that he hadn't wanted to tell me because he had lied about it for so long and he felt it would be humiliating for me, and make me doubt him once again. Arrgghh , even after all we have been through, and he has worked so hard to be transparent, he still had to dissemble over that one because to do otherwise would have meant confirming that the OW's claims to me about that day, which he had strenuously denied, were in fact true.

But please do remember that none of us, no one, would want to admit the sort of behaviour indulged in during affairs to one's DW or DH unless you really wanted to ensure it was an 'exit affair' and that maximum hurt would cause maximum effect. Put yourself in his shoes - if it had been YOU, would you want to say, 'yes, the OM put his cock in me and gave me a great orgasm and it was just fantastic and I didn't for one moment feel a shred of guilt about you'? Think of the words of Roberta Flack's song, 'I felt he'd found my love letters, and read each one out loud'. When you are in affair bubble world you deliberately choose to ignore the massive likelihood that it will be discovered, because, hey it's not going to happen to you, is it?

But it was discovered, by your female instincts and now it's like the personal version of a kiss and tell story - totally humiliating because he has to admit to doing truly awful things. It doesn't mean that he shouldn't put his cards on the table, but people stand in court on a daily basis and swear blind they didn't rape or murder someone, even when their DNA is all over the victim.

Believe me, I have not a shred of pity for him, but I know that had it been ME that had had the affair and not my DH, I probably would have minimised the truth from my DH, in order to protect my own skin, save my marriage and not have to admit what a total bitch, tart and thoroughly dishonest person I had been. My DH's OW told her DH everything, pulling no punches, even down to the sexual positions and acts she and my H had performed on each other, in order to maximise his devastation and try and prompt him to throw her out so she could 'legitimately' turn up on our doorstep. When her H and I discussed it some months later he said that although it was like being burned with acid, it hurt so much, in a sense it got all the shit on the table so he knew precisely what he was facing and the fight he had on his hands.

You don't have that clarity, yet, OP, but somehow you have to impress upon him that no matter how humiliating it is, he must tell you everything. If he doesn't then he and she still have secrets between them and that is unacceptable. And yes, yes, yes to not going away to the course and getting another job. In the end my DH leaving his job - he worked with the OW - was the real catalyst to us beginning the long haul to staying together. Thinking of you.

amijustparanoid Sun 28-Jul-13 18:03:07

"Telling you that she wasn't really interested doesn't really help, does it? He certainly was..."

That's the bit that makes me think I may not be able to get over it. He's sorry now he thinks they'll be consequences but it's not that he made a mistake and regretted it/stopped it happening again. He carried on pursuing her trying to take it further. And he's only now stopped because I know.

He can't claim that he didn't know he had gone too far after that night.

Apileofballyhoo Sun 28-Jul-13 18:16:26

You are right and until/unless he takes responsibility I don't think you can have a real relationship with him again. It has nothing to do with her and everything to do with him - she wasn't in a relationship with you, he was. I just don't know if he is seeing anything in a realistic way. I find that selfish people seem to only think of how their actions affect themselves, not anyone else. So action - affair = leads to losing my family (sorry for myself), not affair = breaking my wife's heart (not sorry for causing her terrible anguish/pain). Incredibly selfish people then blame the other party for 'not forgiving them' or 'refusing to move on' or 'breaking up the marriage'.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 28-Jul-13 18:26:57

The other thing that occurred to me about him is that he seems to be protective of OW - how nice that he is prioritising her ahead of his marriage and you.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 28-Jul-13 18:47:39

LTB. Forget the full disclosure, go to couples counselling bollocks, he's taking the piss of you OP. Find yourself somebody with a bit of honesty and integrity.

SawofftheOW Sun 28-Jul-13 19:01:25

I know that he only stopped when you found out, but sadly that is the nature of affairs. A few stop because they end naturally, run out of steam, the affair partners move job or whatever, and this is generally before the betrayed partner finds out, but I am afraid it is clear that his affair with her came to an abrupt(ish) end only because you found out. If you hadn't then, yes, I think it would have carried on and you may have found yourself faced with an even more profound crisis in that he had got himself in so deep that he decided to leave you and your DC and there would be no room in the issue for your opinion about it as he would be off.

No, sadly, he didn't think, 'I've gone too far' because in his view he hadn't gone far enough. I am so, so sorry to write that as I know how painful it is, but if you are hoping that he might have had an outbreak of conscience at that point, then he would have been one of the very, very few that did. As I've heard so many men say, 'a hard cock has no conscience'.

You can't even begin to think about forgiving him at this juncture, it is still far too early. And yes, he is protecting her above you because emotionally he is still in her camp and he has not yet come back to your side. That's where it is so hard. In a perfect world he would say, oh god, I've been such a fool, it's you I adore and worship and I can't bear the thought of losing you'. In my personal experience and in the painful experience of most of my friends this has happened to, their DH didn't say that. One of the most profound shocks to me was that on discovery, my H didn't renounce the OW immediately and throw himself prostrate at my feet. I struggled to take in what he said when he told me that he didn't think he could give her up. This wasn't how he was 'supposed' to react.

Like you, I had to rewrite the script of my marriage and my understanding of it which I realised I hadn't understood at all. This man I had adored for over half my life, the father of my DC, was not the person I thought him to be at all. It is something that all betrayed partners have to live with. I know it sounds impossible to believe but please trust me when I say that eventually it doesn't feel as raw and you can cope with it more, although that sense of dislocation remains and I think indefinitely to a greater or lesser extent,

NanaNina Sun 28-Jul-13 19:09:55

SawofftheOW I was very interested in your illuminating and honest post and I wonder OP if you found any parts of it that "fitted" for you. However you must have a myriad of emotions going around in your head at the moment and I feel for you, having "been there" myself in the past.

You don't say very much about your marriage before this happened and whether you were happy or not. I agree that he should accept full responsibility but I'm not sure that he is going to. Sometimes the truth is so hurtful we project our feelings on to others (and this isn't necessarily a conscious thought) and he has already done that by accusing you of "making his week hell." What sort of man is your H - is he someone who is emotionally secure and able to talk about his feelings (as many men aren't) and what about you OP, you did say earlier on today that you are not "calm and collected" and it would be very surprising if you were. You must feel hurt, betrayal, anger, etc but you come over as very rational, which isn't a bad thing at a time like this.

Your feelings are going to be raw and I think you did the right thing to tell your H to move out for a few days but sooner or later you are both going to have to decide IF there is a future for you. I mentioned before that the main problem will be one of trust, and I have never managed to overcome that if I'm honest even after 30 years!

IF you decide there might be a future together I really think as someone else has suggested that you need couple-counselling. You need someone right outside of the situation to help you both to take stock of what happened and the resulting trauma for you and issues of trust on your side of things. It may be that the marriage has to end, but you would still benefit from counselling, as you could well carry this mistrust into another relationship and you deserve better than that.

NanaNina Sun 28-Jul-13 19:10:54

SawofftheOW I was very interested in your illuminating and honest post and I wonder OP if you found any parts of it that "fitted" for you. However you must have a myriad of emotions going around in your head at the moment and I feel for you, having "been there" myself in the past.

You don't say very much about your marriage before this happened and whether you were happy or not. I agree that he should accept full responsibility but I'm not sure that he is going to. Sometimes the truth is so hurtful we project our feelings on to others (and this isn't necessarily a conscious thought) and he has already done that by accusing you of "making his week hell." What sort of man is your H - is he someone who is emotionally secure and able to talk about his feelings (as many men aren't) and what about you OP, you did say earlier on today that you are not "calm and collected" and it would be very surprising if you were. You must feel hurt, betrayal, anger, etc but you come over as very rational, which isn't a bad thing at a time like this.

Your feelings are going to be raw and I think you did the right thing to tell your H to move out for a few days but sooner or later you are both going to have to decide IF there is a future for you. I mentioned before that the main problem will be one of trust, and I have never managed to overcome that if I'm honest even after 30 years!

IF you decide there might be a future together I really think as someone else has suggested that you need couple-counselling. You need someone right outside of the situation to help you both to take stock of what happened and the resulting trauma for you and issues of trust on your side of things. It may be that the marriage has to end, but you would still benefit from counselling, as you could well carry this mistrust into another relationship and you deserve better than that.

NanaNina Sun 28-Jul-13 19:11:22

Oh sorry for the double post!

SawofftheOW Sun 28-Jul-13 19:27:48

NanaNina, thank you for your generous comment and your remarks about trust. It has been three years, rather than your thirty, but I sense that I will feel the same as you if/when we ever reach the thirty year point. It is the pain that just keeps giving, isn't it, no matter how much you want it to disappear.

OP, metaphorically holding your hand and thinking of you. Have you been to your GP? Seeing mine was, literally, a life saver. I was so devastated that I didn't care if I lived or died, couldn't eat and started to find the thought of the nearby railway line very enticing, and I have young DC. Anti-depressants, which I resisted taking initially, gave me the emotional space to cope with the physical and mental pain of the situation a little better.

It won't make it go away but it enabled me, certainly, to hang very tenuously onto my sanity. Interestingly, when the OW found out from my DH (the disloyal shit) that I was on them, she was triumphant as she thought it meant she had managed to 'break' me and it would only be a matter of time before my H could not longer bear to live with his 'demented' wife. Truly, affairs bring out the worst in people and the only people who proved themselves gold-plated, endlessly patient, kind and loving were my three close girlfriends who I clung on to for emotional and practical support. God knows how they tolerated hours and hours of my soul-searching, devastation and and my gallons of tears. And they have all been gracious to my DH subsequently whilst making quite clear where their loyalties lie and how angered they were by his behaviour.

Do you have a good friend in RL you can lean on? Please do as they are a god-send.

ageofgrandillusion Sun 28-Jul-13 19:38:07

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 28-Jul-13 19:43:45

Relate is a waste of time.

Individual counselling at this stage is more appropriate - he needs to look into himself to find out what issues, traits etc led to him justifying having an ego boosting affair a way of resolving his problems.

Marriage counselling is only appropriate should both parties agree to try again.

itwillgetbettersoon Sun 28-Jul-13 19:48:38

Even if you forgive and do move on I think it must be very difficult to ever trust.your husband 100%. It must eat away at you all the time. It is difficult to break up a marriage because of an affair but you know what it does get better, slowly and in very small steps but it is better than being with someone who at some stage treated you with no respect.

AnyFucker Sun 28-Jul-13 20:18:06

ageof I am a fully paid-up member of the LTB club, but even I find your input on this thread distasteful

NanaNina Sun 28-Jul-13 20:24:33

ageofgrandillusion (interesting name - could be disillusion maybe? ) Why is it so important to you that people agree with your views? You know absolutely nothing about me, my "bloke" or the situation I referred to, but see fit to call me a mug. Ah well I don't intent to defend myself to someone who seems a tad immature in my view.

SaswofftheOw another very interesting post - you write so well and your emotions come through.....yes I'm sure ADs could help to ease the depression and anxiety that often occurs after such a life crisis and glad they helped you, not as you say with the underlying cause but with the symptoms. Loss (not necessarily bereavement) is almost always the root cause of depression. And friends yes, I so agree, I too could never have got by without my women friends, one especially who listened till her ears must have hurt! Time does heal, when I say I still don't trust after 30 years, that wasn't strictly true, it's just the memory never goes away, but like other traumatic things in life, over time, it settles down into something much more manageable.

Madabouthotchoc - I don't think it's fair to say Relate is a "waste of time" as in any therapy/counselling, so much depends on the therapist, and it is imperative that anyone seeking this way of working things out, finds someone with whom they feel safe and comfortable. Of course counselling/therapy only works if both parties are agreeable. Maybe people like the OP have to issue an ultimatum, that they must sign up to going down this route. It's certainly not a cop-out for the "bloke" as one poster mentioned, as it can be very painful to go through the reasons for our actions, and what lies beneath our behaviour.

I don't intend to answer anyone else who makes what I perceive to be unhelpful comments as I think OP has enough to contend with at the moment, without posters pushing their points of view and getting cross when others don't agree with them.

onefewernow Sun 28-Jul-13 20:26:22

MAHC, although I generally agree with that comment, I'm not certain it is always the case.

MC can be used in a variety of ways. We went twice- we are still on our second lot- with an 18 month gap. The first time we went WAS too early- the stage OP is at. However, it did help me to be crystal clear that I thought he was lying and could commit to nothing till I had the truth, and it did enable him to admit the infidelity, which he wouldn't have done otherwise.

But it was too early to help with the true fallout, as it took three or four months for me to feel fully how bad things had been, and also to surface all of the anger. Also, it took practice at the 'new relationship' we were trying to have for me to see clearly how selfish he had always been, and the extent to which he hoped to patch things up without addressing his selfishness.

That took us back the second time, which has been excellent.

I would also comment that Relate, for example, is a big organisation with staff at various levels if practice and training background. The counsellor we have had has been older, male, tough as hell and actually willing to join in a three way conversation, with views of his own to contribute. He is very, very good, and also had a wealth of related qualifications and specialisms.

I know not everyone finds that. Also, personalities don't always match up.

I just wanted to offer that as an alternative view.

If I should have done one thing different back then, it would have been to ask him to leave as soon as my suspicions reached that critical point, and not had him back until I was satisfied on all the usual counts.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 28-Jul-13 21:15:19

onefewer - I was referring to going to relate at the discovery stage (a poster upthread advised MC).

As I said in the same post, it is a much more worthwhile exercise later on a part of the rebuilding process.

With some relate counsellors, their training in the field of infidelity is often out of date/inadequate and they are so intent on not taking sides that they can make things worse - I have read on here of how the betrayed party has been made to feel responsible for the affair. Not what you need when you are feeling so traumatised sad

amijustparanoid Sun 28-Jul-13 21:31:40

To try to answer some questions - I thought our relationship was ok, there were no major issues - it's just the standard stuff of a busy life and not enough time. We both work full time and when we're not working we're with dd so there's not really a lot of adult time but I thought we were happy enough with that. I suppose it is (was) comfortable rather than exciting. Sex life was ok, I knew he would have liked it more but it wasn't as though it was non-existent.

He's generally a very laid back 'nice guy'. He doesn't really get stressed but when there is 'drama' he doesn't deal with it very well and tries to ignore it or solve it and when he can't do either straight away he just withdraws which is why I think he's been so useless in all this. He doesn't want to deal with the consequences of what he's done.

I've confided in one real life friend and she can't believe he would do this. He's never been a 'charmer' or made me feel insecure about other women. He doesn't open up much but he'd never even hinted to me he had a problem with us or wanted anything to change. When we have talked and I've asked him why he's unhappy and had to go off and do this he says he's not unhappy, that he likes our life and doesn't really know why he did it.

Madabout - in what way do you mean he is protecting her?

Apart from saying that she was the one who stopped it going further he hasn't talked that positively about her. He hasn't blamed her but he keeps saying that she doesn't mean anything to him and that he only went there because he could (not that it makes it better)

Don't know what to do about her now - she has text him yesterday and today and he has ignored. Apparently for the last 3/4 months they've been in pretty much daily contact. He will see her at work tomorrow so will have to tell her I know (if he hasn't already - he says he hasn't contacted her since Friday and her texts seem to support that but obviously I'll have no idea what he's saying to her tomorrow)

MysteriousHamster Sun 28-Jul-13 22:36:27

Remember it's not about him choosing you over her.

You have to choose whether you want to be with him after this.

He doesn't get to do whatever he wants, hurt people and then 'reward you by going back to you after he's been elsewhere. That's no punishment at all. That just teaches him he could do it again as long as he came back to you in the end.

Has he shown in any way that he knows he could lose you?

The best thing would be for him to move out until you can make your own mind up what you want to do on your own. Otherwise you're going to be trying to win him over, when it should be the other way around!

ProphetOfDoom Sun 28-Jul-13 22:37:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amijust, you must be hurting sad

So it's been going on for months - when did the "fumble" take place?
Do you believe hes telling the truth now?

What he has said is so hurtful and shows such selfishness and lack of empathy. Saying its a 'friendship that crossed a line' is pathetic. Saying its just because he is bored is horrible. Somehow i imagine it's even more insulting that she was the one putting the brakes on.

I wouldn't look to the future now, just get through this time as best you can - I do think he should move out for a bit - the enormity of what he's done to your marriage seems to have passed him by.

Yes, that's true what Matilda said re. Her texting. She's clearly an active participant too.

Would he get in trouble at work for this?

thismousebites Sun 28-Jul-13 23:09:48

If, as DH states, OW put a stop to this a while back, why has she been texting/emailing him all weekend.
Full story not being told here. Your DH is holding stuff back......again.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 28-Jul-13 23:17:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amijustparanoid Sun 28-Jul-13 23:20:43

The 'fumble' (aka sleeping in same bed/kissing/oral) was apparently a month ago. I have no idea what she thinks she's doing, he says she wouldn't go further/repeat the physical stuff but the flirting/emails/texts/phone calls never stopped and the other time they kissed was since then so it could have been building up to happening again (at the course?)

I don't know if he would be in trouble at work - don't think it would look good considering his position but I don't think there are any formal rules there against being a twat

He's here now - I don't know where he would go. No one apart from one of my friends knows and i'm not ready to tell other people at the moment.

amijustparanoid Sun 28-Jul-13 23:22:30

When he told me that i believed him but i'm doubting it all now - is it really so unlikely that it would have just happened once do you think? Even if it did he as good as told me that he was actively trying to make it happen again.

AnyFucker Sun 28-Jul-13 23:28:01

You are covering for him, love

why ?

You have nothing to be ashamed of. This is his fuck-up.

I would be singing like a fucking canary. But I guess you would have to have decided it was The End for that.

Keeping his dirty secrets is all part of brushing it under the carpet. You are playing right into his hands, I am afraid.

3HotCrossBuns Sun 28-Jul-13 23:30:00

AIJP - I am so sorry you are going through this. It's a very confusing time. It was my H who did a 'timeline' for me. I think he found it helpful too - I don't know what your H is like but mine is useless with dates and being confused about what happened when added to my feelings of being deceived. It also meant I could match up what was happening in our parallel home live too. Some of that was v hurtful to realise but at least I wasn't 'going mad' with doubting myself.

ISawOffTheOW has made a very helpful post on my thread and on here, together with others. I would ask H to leave - mine went to a b&b a few miles away for the first 2 weeks, his mum's for a few days at week 5 and he's currently at a local Travelodge as we are tearing strips off each other at home hmmhmm. I'm about to go away for a month with the kids too and I think both of us are desperate some real 'time out'. From my own experience getting some space is vital. Hopefully it will help you think more clearly and allow you to look after yourself. Take care.

tessa6 Sun 28-Jul-13 23:47:12

trust your gut. the greatest truth will come to you with objectivity and space from him. When someone is with you you are encouraged to believe them because we have an honesty bias especially towards those we care about. But it does all sound kind of unlikely. Please please will you try and ask or just take email text and billing evidence. You cannot trust him at the moment.

morethanpotatoprints Sun 28-Jul-13 23:53:06

I believe what he says about not wanting to be with ow and not wanting to lose you and dd over this.
It stinks of mid life crisis to me, and I think he was flattered by her becoming involved. I think she was flattered by the older man and possibly moving in circles beyond her level at work if that makes sense.
He needs to be worried he will lose you as his behaviour was totally unacceptable, but atm I would believe him about it not being an affair.
You are hurt and rightly so, he has to know how much his silly school boy fumblings have upset you.
It seems like your relationship is being tested here, Good luck OP.
Give him hell until he realises the pain he has caused.

clam Sun 28-Jul-13 23:58:13

How did he come to be sleeping in the same bed as her? Was this on another work trip?

onefewernow Mon 29-Jul-13 00:06:59

I agree that you shouldn't feel you can't tell people. It is shitty that you have been wronged and feel you can't use your usu support networks because if his feelings and sensitivities.

What about you? You don't owe him.

I have to admit that over time I hid it less and less. Although to my shame I have not been too open about that with him, not that he asked. It isn't worth the stress, and he would not understand the female need to talk to best friends and family.

amijustparanoid Mon 29-Jul-13 01:16:38

morethanpotatoprints - I do think that's what it is, if what he's saying is true it's a pathetic attention/flattery thing. What's an affair and what's not though? Maybe it isn't the right word but it was more than 'school boy fumblings'.

I'm going to ask him to go through it all again like you suggest with the timeline 3hotcross - there's been so much drip feeding over this weekend

Still not sure about telling more people - my friend who knows has been away this weekend so have only spoken to her briefly. Am going to see her tomorrow

Yes it was a work trip clam - them and lots of others which makes me wonder if it's known about where they work and makes me feel more of a fool having gone to that party.

Got work tomorrow and can't sleep

Don't let him deny its an affair. He's spent the last few months having a secret And physical relationship- he's told you you're being ridiculous yet has been pursuing her on a daily basis.

Unless he accepts this I can't see how you will get anywhere with him.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Mon 29-Jul-13 08:43:14

If this summer party hadn't happened he'd have gone on that work trip this week and you'd have waved him off oblivious to any situation. You and DD filling the time leading your lives and H and OW off on a paid jolly.

Had you not accidentally seen something amiss the email exchanges this weekend would have been off the scale.

I think in your shoes getting rl support is the healthy thing to do - choose carefully but talk to someone.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 29-Jul-13 08:54:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altostratus Mon 29-Jul-13 10:08:57

That sort of sexual activity 'everything but', I don't know about other people, aside from my own friends/acquaintances (thinking of oral) I'd find more intimate than actual intercourse, and something which would be a stage or so after sex.
But it's utter tosh that they haven't had sex. Even so, the mind boggles that he's saying it's not an affair! Wondering what the criteria would be to qualify exactly confused

clam Mon 29-Jul-13 10:09:17

He has Simply. No. Idea. what he's done, has he? I was going to say that it doesn't matter whether he calls it an affair or not, but actually, it does. If he seriously thinks that he can share a bed with another woman, fool around with her sexually (whatever that means), exchange numerous texts, yet regard it as just "getting too close to someone," then he is on another planet.

Not to mention lying to you and accusing you of obsessing and being paranoid.

Jan45 Mon 29-Jul-13 11:12:14

Sorry you are going through this hurt but glad the truth is coming out at last. He's had sex with her so he's had an affair, only stopped by you probing - he says she meant nothing which is even more worrying, would he just jump into bed with any woman who offered it up to him, sounds like it. I don't know how you will get past this, maybe you will but just remember you deserve better than a guy who so easily drops his pants and the drink sharing and thigh squeezing is just the ultimate nastiest thing to do in front of you, what a lovely pair they make eh, are you sure he's not still lusting after her, I know he says not but I'd be inclinded to take whatever he says as the opposite.

debiliem58 Mon 29-Jul-13 11:54:30

Perfect storm, in one of my earlier post I offered my support and granted is was different from the majority… in fact everybody’s, however, for me in an earlier post I offered an immediate coping strategy – others thought it was a 1950’s outlook and you choose to call it game playing.
Hilary Clinton and Victoria Beckham are examples of smart women with coping strategies… examples of women that we have all heard of, and, not what Betty down the street did when she found out her husband had cheated.
Victoria is a rich women in her own right as is Hilary Clinton, I am sure, that if now - should they both wish to end their marriages they could … but on their terms!.
When you get blindsided, hold off and develop a coping strategy. Both women are now in an even stronger position. Victoria now has her own fashion line and Hilary has had a significant career boost .. and yes Victoria does look miserable on camera, however, in her private life … she’s a Five Star General with a wicked sense of humour to boot. She has an incredible business head, everybody gives her the credit for the Spice Girls getting as far as they did, allegedly she engineered for a previous manager to get sacked … so I’ve read. They are just example of smart women – don’t take me literally I know it’s not the norm, on a more realistic level as I suggested in a previous post - get that degree as one example, become that hairdresser, set your shop up – is that game playing – or survival for yourself and children?
I felt everybody else has given enough of their moral and emotional support but there is only so much somebody needs to hear of other people relating to their own experiences and examples of others … although very supportive …. didn’t help with the NOW of her situation. You are asking me to give her support. I was giving her very realistic support, just not in the vein of this thread. Choose another thread to post in? – getting chucked out of the “playground” - am I getting passively bullied? I say let everybody put their own personal views on the situation out there without the risk of being shot down.
I was very much focussed on OP situation and her needs …. my message was .. go and get your husband back…. at least for the time being.
Perfect Storm - you referred to my own fantasies? Given the opportunity the majority of men are serial adulterers. Sex is as necessary to men as food and water is to us. Men don’t have sex with other women because they don’t love or want to be with their wives – they are genetically programmed to have sex – who was porn invented for, why do we have Babe Station on our telly, why do we have brothels ? The internet – Illicit encounters – the U.K. largest dating site for married men?.... and although … of course I wouldn’t dream to underestimate the devastation a woman feels when her husband is unfaithful … should we be really surprised when it happens to us or it is a fantasy to think it won’t happen to us?. Any man can be seduced and it’s not because of any failings on a wife part.
OP ….. I will stick my neck out again…. If you want to lose your husband ask him for all the minute details…..as some have advised - for sure it will drive him away.. is that what you really want? When a wife is giving a husband/t*at/c*nt a “ hard time” at home and the mistress/lover/slut is all … love, sweet and happiness….because she wants your life-style – she’ll get it…all your emotional, physical, financial investment in your marriage …. could be at her discretion.

Cirrostratus Mon 29-Jul-13 11:59:13

Are you for real, Deb? hmm

Jan45 Mon 29-Jul-13 12:02:13

debi - totally disagree with your whole perspective, you talk about men and sex like they have no control over their sexual urges at all, what a load of bollocks, they have a brain as well as a cock - if a man truly loves their partner then they have no interest in having sex with anyone else. Are you sure you are not a man lol?

AnyFucker Mon 29-Jul-13 12:02:44

he risked his family for "nothing" ?

he really is a woman-hating piece of shit, isn't he ?

if my H ever strayed, I would prefer it if he gave the other women at least some respect

yuk

AnyFucker Mon 29-Jul-13 12:05:06

debi would like to pit women against each other in sexual competition to win the booby prize of a faithless man

not my idea of a healthy relationship, but it works in some circles, I believe

tessa6 Mon 29-Jul-13 12:36:41

The reason you can't get it all straight in your head is because you know on some level it doesn't make sense. Because he's leaving stuff out or outright lying. It doesn't matter whether he calls it an affair or not (it is). That just shows how deluded and far from wanting this out in the open he is. He just wants it swept under the carpet. He cannot seriously expect to go away with her. Yes it may be known about where they work, not at all unlikely, and that is his humiliation not yours.

NanaNina Mon 29-Jul-13 12:55:19

Oh lord OP I wonder if all these posts are making you more confused that you already are, and then posters disagreeing with each other doesn't help I'm sure. There will always be the "LeaveTheBastard" people on this kind of thread and how anyone can say that just by a few lines of text on a screen I don't know.

I see you said you were going to ask him for a timeline which is a good idea, but I don't see much point in all this "was it an affair/friends who got too close" or whatever. The important thing is that he has been sexually intimate with another woman and whatever it is called is really a mater of semantics, and this will have left you with a myriad of emotions. The emotion I displayed most when it happened to me was anger and more anger but the anger was really covering up the huge hurt and sense of betrayal that he had caused. It was incredibly hurtful to know they had been "here or there" together and then fitting in what I was doing at the time. I think looking back I would have preferred not to have had all the details.

I agree with 3hotcrossbuns it would be better to be apart while the situation is so raw, and he could stay in a Travel Lodge couldn't he, or with a friend, but then I guess you would be wondering if he was still seeing the OW. I know that's what I'd think. In my view in general the male ego is a fragile thing and is susceptible to flattery, and yes yes of course that's true for women too, before anyone points that out to me!

I think the thread must be helping OP as you are continuing to post. It would be better though if you could talk to someone in RL and you mention one friend, and maybe you can confide in her.

perfectstorm Mon 29-Jul-13 14:59:02

To be honest, Deb, it's difficult to discern your points when you are so fundamentally challenged on the literacy front, but from what I can make out, you seem to think men on illicit affair websites are sleeping with one another? And that no women have affairs unless themselves single? Because men like to put it around, and women just want babies and monogamy?

Plenty of more knowledgeable research has indicated that not only are your ideas recent (traditionally, female sexuality was seen as more voracious and insatiable than men's) but disproven by science (female monkeys tend to be the sexual aggressors, not the male; women when subjected to MRI scans show every bit as strong a tendency to objectify and are actually more aroused than men by sexual actions on screen, despite men and women reporting opposite levels of arousal in questionnaires, for example). Your ideas are, simply, wrong, and before pontificating on evolutionary psychology with a pile of sexist and dated cliches - coupled with anecdotes from Hello magazine - you might want to actually take the time to learn a tiny bit on the subject at hand? Otherwise, your posts will continue to appear foolish and continue to attract unanimous ridicule. Your choice, of course, but something most people seek to avoid.

if you are genuinely interested in more modern approaches to evolutionary psychology, then as I suggested, start an appropriate thread. Preferably after trying to educate yourself at least a tiny bit first. But please, please stop posting utter, well-nigh unreadable rubbish all over one supposed to be devoted to a specific woman in a vulnerable situation. Your ideas are not supported by anything but your own prejudices, and as such are not remotely helpful to the OP - or indeed, as far as I can see, anyone else.

OP, how are you doing today?

perfectstorm Mon 29-Jul-13 15:04:12

OP, if I were you I would talk to your friend. You need someone who is totally "on your side", so to speak, but who also knows your husband and your life and can understand the whole context of the situation. This is such a horrible position to be in, and while I completely understand why you might not want to talk to many people, especially as you've not yet got your own head around it, talking to a really close friend could help so much. Apart from anything else, it would clarify your own feelings, as well as providing you with peer support. Girlfriends can be life-savers.

Sorry to have joined in the bun-fight. I resent it when people derail threads on sensitive topics to their own issues, but contributing from annoyance is simply adding to that problem. Mea culpa, and will refrain in future. blush

schmarn Mon 29-Jul-13 16:10:26

There is one thing the OP can be absolutely sure of. All affairs escalate - they do not get close to climax (pardon the unintended pun) and then subside to mere flirting again. He is taking you for a fool if he expects you to buy that.

Affairs typically begin by flirty emails and chats closely followed by coffees/lunches a deux - the two star crossed lovers cannot get enough of each other's company. He thinks he has found someone who understands and appreciates him for what he is (unlike 'er indoors who weighs on him like an albatross). Before they know it, they think nothing of contacting each other a dozen times a day even on weekends - contact from their new love is like the oxygen that sustains them. This goes on for weeks and soon they think of each other night and day, dreaming of spending time together away from the drudgery and anodyne commitments of their day to day real life. They start to imagine in great detail what it will be like to kiss each other, then to make love to each other. The first kiss is mind blowing and, of course, physically and emotionally, they are desperate to take it to the next level. One day it finally happens, they find themselves alone at the end of a work event.

Now, maybe, just maybe, they stopped at oral sex that night but I doubt it and I think, deep down, you know it is not true. Even if we credit that lie with an ounce of substance, weeks have passed since then and the intimacy of their contact at dinner just a week ago provides you with clear proof that he is still infatuated with her. If he is really saying that they have rowed back since their one night of suppressed passion, why on earth did he choose to sit you, his wife, at the same table as his erstwhile lover? If she means nothing to him, why take the risk or suffer the discomfort of having you close to her? The answer - because he is so desperate to be around her, that just a quick reassuring squeeze of her thigh and some whispered words of adoration made it worth it.

What has gone wrong in this great tale of romance and honour is that you have rumbled him. By fortune, you caught him with his hand on her leg. Just a fleeting glance of a pretty minor moment in their cavalcade of adultery. No wonder he reacted by saying it was nothing because, for him, it WAS nothing. He is now probably trying to work out how he can keep you sweet while keeping his mistress on board. This moment of reckoning has come long before he was ready for it.

Please, whatever you do, do not make the mistake of parsing his words and pinning your hopes again and again on whatever he now says the truth is. Last week, he was your loving and faithful husband who would never look at another woman. What will the truth be next week? Until he is prepared to come clean and tell you the whole truth (and you will know it when you hear it), there is little hope for your marriage.

NanaNina Tue 30-Jul-13 00:45:15

Sorry Schmarn but I don't think you (or anyone else for that matter) is in a position to tell the OP that "there is little hope for her marriage" - I also think some of the content of your long post putting forward your views on the sequence of events of what typically happens in an affair are not helpful. The OP is aware that her H has betrayed her and she is feeling I'm sure like many of us who have been in that position, and over time she and her H will decide whether their marriage will continue.

I think if I was the OP I would stop posting as posters are disagreeing with each other and I know I have just done the same, but I honestly don't understand how people can be so definite about what will or won't happen in someone's life, just based on a few lines of text on a laptop!!

ProphetOfDoom Tue 30-Jul-13 02:42:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 30-Jul-13 07:34:54

Nana - we post what we like as long as it is supportive and useful.

I agree that Schmarn's post is very helpful - sadly she is right when she says that without truth, honesty and openness, there is very little hope for the marriage. How can it be otherwise?! confused

The cooncept of the affair script is well known on here and again he is following it which is why his behaviour is so easy to predict.

I have experienced infidelity and it was the help of wise MN posters with tough advice and insights that saved our marriage.

Succubi Tue 30-Jul-13 08:47:28

Debi I concur with everything said by AF. I am not sure how your post is helpful to the OP at all. Not only are your views offensive to women but also to men. As the mother to two boys I find your views hugely offensive and I hope that when my sons become men they marry women who have the strength and confidence to not tolerate this type of emotional abuse and I hope I raise my boys better than your most offensive of comments:

"Any man can be seduced and it’s not because of any failings on a wife part."

Succubi Tue 30-Jul-13 08:51:01

OP ultimately it's your decision whether you want to give your marriage a chance to overcome what has happened. To my mind this can only happen if there is complete honesty on his part failing which the doubt and lack of trust is likely to be a killer in the end. This is of course assuming he deserves you enough to be given a second chance given his abhorent behaviour. Ultimately it must on your terms and your terms alone.

schmarn Tue 30-Jul-13 10:43:55

Nana, it would help if you had read the whole post and not just the last 7 words. I did not say "there is no hope for your marriage". I said "Until he is prepared to come clean and tell you the whole truth (and you will know it when you hear it), there is little hope for your marriage."

There is a big difference between the two. I'm not saying LTB - I'm saying he needs to be a man and accept responsibility and share the truth. If not (and only the OP can set a timeframe for it) then it will be over.

I'm happy to provide the OP with some hope. Many adulterous men are able to reconcile with their wives and go on to have happy marriages, but the common thread in all cases is that the cheating party must respect their spouse by answering their questions truthfully and honestly. Without that, trust can never be rebuilt.

At the moment, the OP's husband is not even close to it. Even now, he is snapping at her for asking questions and changing his story every two seconds. He also doesn't appear to have the emotional or mental intelligence to make his current story remotely believable. I don't think any of us would be doing the OP any favours by pretending otherwise.

NanaNina Tue 30-Jul-13 11:23:00

I did read the whole post schmarm - hope you are not getting confused or annoyed OP by us disagreeing with each other.

NanaNina Tue 30-Jul-13 12:21:16

I think human relationships are very complex and I have a problem with anyone being definitive about what has happened or what will happen. I am signing off the thread as I don't think us disagreeing with each other is going to help the OP.

Ochanticleer Tue 30-Jul-13 12:28:14

I agree with everything schmarn said

Smilehappy Wed 31-Jul-13 08:51:33

Op I hope you are not being side tracked by the people disagreeing with each other within your thread, has he admitted anymore? How did it go with the timeline request? Has he informed you of exactly when it started? And is he actively seeking new employment or is he just saying he is?

Hope your holding up ok x

NanaNina Fri 02-Aug-13 10:18:22

Do you really think sh that firing questions at the OP is going to bring her back! I popped in hoping that she was getting some good support, but if she's any sense she will stay away from this thread, which I think is not helpful to her.

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