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Victim of domestic violence asked to leave holiday park!

(243 Posts)

Ill try and keep this as concise as possible.

I'm on holiday in Wales staying in a caravan. Last night about 11pm an argument started between a couple in the caravan nearby. I say argument but it was mostly a man shouting.

It quickly escalated and the women was screaming, she sounded terrified, and there were children screaming "mummy" too.

At this point I phone the police. Very quickly the security guards from the site turned up. The woman was sobbing , said she was ok and the security guards quickly left.

As soon as they'd gone the man left the caravan. Moments later the police turned up. They spent some time searching the site but eventually the man was found and arrested.

This morning the women was sat outside the caravan and I went over to check she was ok. She has a broken nose! sad the caravan was a bit messed up too. Several internal doors were off their hinges.

We talked for a while and she told me she'd been asked to leave the holiday park!! I Wa stunned at this but she said she was going to leave anyway as her and the dc didn't want to be there after everything that had happened the night before.

I couldn't stop thinking about her being told to leave and later that day I went to speak to the general manager of the site.

He confirmed that yes she had been asked to leaved because they had a zero tolerance policy on violent behaviour.

I pointed out to him that it was the man who had been violent, he'd assaulted the women, she is basically being punished for being the victim of a crime and by asking her to leave they were implying that she was in some way to blame for the mans behaviour.

We talked about it for quite a while and I tried several different ways to get my point across. To be fair he did really listen to me and tried to understand but basically he didn't get it.

He also trotted out the usually ill informed stereo types "women like that never want to press charges" etc.

I'm so angry. In one way does it really matter because she wanted to go home anyway?

But on the other hand if we don't challenge such ignorant attitudes towards domestic violence then nothing is ever going to change. I feel like I want to do something to make the holiday park realise how wrong their attitude is.

Sorry if this is a bit jumbled. Trying to keep it as short as possible.

arthriticfingers Wed 17-Jul-13 18:53:57

Can I just say 'Well done!' and 'Thank you' These are the kind of steps that will slowly increase understanding of abuse.

Darkesteyes Wed 17-Jul-13 18:55:22

That is absolutely disgusting treatment of the victim of a crime. Which holiday park was it I understand if you dont want to say.

gamerchick Wed 17-Jul-13 18:55:41

Its probably their policy. They caused a disruption, police were called and a caravan was damaged. The who's, what's and whys are irrelevant.. If they had let her stay then he may have come back. Police tooing and frowing police are bad for image. They are not obliged to protect this woman from her partner.

Sad but the way it is.

ImperialBlether Wed 17-Jul-13 18:56:11

That is so dreadful. The poor woman and the poor children, too, both witnessing that attack on their mother and losing their holiday, too. They must have looked forward to that for so long.

And now she has to go back home, where he is. Absolutely shocking. I imagine she didn't want to stay because it was so obvious what had happened to her and because she'd cop for it if she had a holiday and he didn't.

I guess the manager felt that as long as she had stayed with the husband and gone on holiday with him, she was enabling his violent behaviour, and as such guilty of letting the children grow up in a violent environment, so partly to blame?

I suppose the manager felt that he needed to spearhead a case that NO violence is acceptable, and as long as she kept her children in a violent family, she was part of the problem?

Not saying he is right. I am on the fence on that. Just trying to understand his way of thinking.

ananikifo Wed 17-Jul-13 18:56:33

How awful. Write a review on the caravan park's website.

Darkesteyes Wed 17-Jul-13 18:56:42

Yes Seconded. Well done for speaking up and trying to get through to an obstinate arse.

ImperialBlether Wed 17-Jul-13 18:56:45

But none of them even knew whether she'd been attacked by him before, did they?

Half of me what's to name and shame them but I wary of giving out and details that could identify the woman.

ImperialBlether Wed 17-Jul-13 18:57:30

You're right. Don't do that.

I guess it is a case of protecting their other holiday makers too?

Did you not at all worry that you and your children would get involved? That she would run across to yours, and have her husband chase after her?

A violent man on the lose in a holiday park is not really on. I also think as long as she stayed there, he might come back, and take revenge on both her, the caravan, and even the manger, or people who had phoned the police.

Darkesteyes Wed 17-Jul-13 18:58:39

Good point Didnt think of that. Sorry my anger took over a bit there.

Also, she was covering for him when the security guards knocked, did she not? So covering up criminal damage to the caravan, and therefore colluding with her partner.

I did try to explain to him that maybe she was still with him out of fear for what would happen if she left.

From what the manager said the man was on probation(?) and so has been returned to jail.

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Wed 17-Jul-13 18:59:59

Well done Clem you did a wonderful thing. If only it was as simple as leaving.

"Write a review on the caravan park's website."

That would be such a stupid and vindictive thing to do.

Say what? The holiday park tried to protect their guests by removing people causing altercations, and this is a bad thing??

This women was terrified of her partner. I have never heard fear like that before in my whole life. When the security guards asked her if she was ok this man was stood inches from her.

ananikifo Wed 17-Jul-13 19:03:48

I think people should know the policies of the park. I would avoid them based on this story, while obviously there are others who think it's a completely appropriate way to behave towards domestic violence survivors. I don't see why its vindictive if it's the truth and the park's manager admits and defends his decision.

Question for you quint. If I came on here and said a random holiday maker had been attacked by a stranger on the site and then was asked to leave the next morning you would think it was unjust that the victim was asked to leave, yes? Why is it any different in this case?

HE is entirely responsible for his own behaviour. HE attacked her and broke her nose. How is she in anyway to blame for that?

I told the manager that the only thing that would stop me visiting the park again was the way they were treating this women.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:09:27

Well done Clementine, we could with more people like you.

Quint I expect the poor woman was probably terrified.

I dont think you can compare a stranger being attacked by a random criminal, and a woman choosing to let her children grow up with domestic violence.
It is a holiday park. Not a charity. They would need to repair their caravan. They would not be able to let the caravan until it was repaired, and could not repair it until the woman had left.

Or do you think it is fair for the next guest to be told "sorry we need to cancel the booking as the previous guest smashed it up and we could not repair it until they had vacated at the end of their holiday?"

gamerchick Wed 17-Jul-13 19:10:37

It doesn't matter why.. The facts are facts. The manager isn't obligated to look too deeply into it.

It'll be made clear that any damage to the caravan or other part of the site and the guests responsible would be asked to leave. That doesn't just apply to one member of the party, but all of them.

Emotion doesn't come into it.

She may have been terrified, and she may even have been terrified for the umpteenth time. It does not give her a right to ruin other peoples holidays.

Wereonourway Wed 17-Jul-13 19:11:33

"Colluding with her partner" !!??

Yip, the one who broke her nose who she was shit scared of. I'd "collude" too id imagine, if he were standing right by me. I'd probably collude further if I was terrified of what he'd do if I didn't

Well done op for getting help. I hope the lady and her children are safe now and she makes steps to get away from him permanently

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:12:56

"It is a holiday park. Not a charity."

Yes, but a bit of human decency and kindness to someone who has been through a distressing ordeal wouldn't go amiss.

For years I stayed with a man who beat me and sometimes rapped me too.

I stayed because he told me if I left he would kill my dc. He said no matter how long he went to prison for or however far I ran, he would find me and he would kill my kids. I believed him. I stayed to protect my children. Thankfully in the end I got out but it took me a long time to get to that point.

McBalls Wed 17-Jul-13 19:14:15

Poor children, these are the memories their childhoods will be made of.

I feel sorry for the children.

At lest they should not be made to stay in the caravan they witnessed their dad smash up, looking at doors hanging off the hinges.

She didn't ruin anyone's holiday HE did! Why should she be punished for his behaviour?

And yes the two examples are comparable. If somebody assaults you it doesn't matter if it was a random stranger or you partner, it is exactly the same, it's still assault.

Being in a relationship with somebody does not make it more acceptable for them to hit you.

RoooneyMara Wed 17-Jul-13 19:18:57

Perhaps they were afraid that the man would return, looking for her, and cause more damage. <trying to understand policy>

Wereonourway Wed 17-Jul-13 19:19:55

clementine your words have a lump in my throat, how bloody awful for you, I can't imagine how horrific that was to live through.

Id like to think this woman also feels terrible for what her children saw(and have possibly seen before) but the colluding comment has rubbed me up the wrong way to be honest.

Hopefully the woman will get help and find the strength to leave at some point, for her childrens sake and for hers

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:20:32

Clementine you were brave and did the right thing, the morally decent thing. Too many people would turn a blind eye.

I'm not sure why you're getting ticked off.

Even if that was the case she should not have been made to leave. Plus, he was arrested and returned to jail as he was on probation according to site manager.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:22:51

Sorry...I mean, I'm not sure why other posters are ticking you off. I realise that wasn't clear.

So sorry to read you have been through that yourself. Well done to you for getting away.

Thankyou flippinda

K8Middleton Wed 17-Jul-13 19:27:17

I think the park would have been well within their rights to say she is welcome to say but the violent man is banned. That is reasonable.

Asking the woman to leave because she has been assaulted by her partner is just awful. As well as victim blaming it reduces her to nothing more than an extension of him; a chattel.

She is an individual and should be treated as such. What the park have done to her is inhumane.

"Being in a relationship with somebody does not make it more acceptable for them to hit you."

No it does not. I dont think it is acceptable for anybody to hit somebody else.

But by staying in a relationship where you are hit, you are accepting it.

LurcioLovesFrankie Wed 17-Jul-13 19:29:37

Well done Clementine, for standing up for her. And very sorry to hear what you went through in the past.

RoooneyMara Wed 17-Jul-13 19:29:51

Yes. Sorry I'm on your side, I think it's dreadful but am trying to think how the chap could possibly have justified it.

I am so glad you were there for her.

K8middleton, thats exactly it. You explain it so much better than me.

Good for you Clementine. I guess it is hard for some people to 'get' what it is like to live in fear of someone and yet be judged by all and sundry as if you're as bad as they are.

I admire you for doing the right thing, I like to think I would do the same. (I had a partner like this too, years ago. He threatened to kill everyone in my family if I left, and I totally believed him.)

K8Middleton Wed 17-Jul-13 19:32:21

Some of the attitudes on this thread belong to another century. Maybe one where a husband "couldn't" rape his wife sad

Oh, and just having one person actually talk to her who understood may have made all the difference to her. (So many folk would just ignore her.) Just hope she finds a way to get away from the prick.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:33:31

It seems to me that the decent thing to do would have been to give them another caravan and let her and the kids have a few days peace and quiet away from the abusive shitbag.

And yes, before anyone points it out, I know they are not obliged to do so.

VestandKnickers Wed 17-Jul-13 19:34:49

I think it was very kind of you to stick up for this woman, but it is reasonable for the manager of the caravan park to ask her to leave if he considers that her staying there is likely to distress other holiday makers. He is running a business after all. Hopefully she has sonewhere to go where she can be supported.

I do hope I helped her. She was amazing this morning. She had all the kids sorted, dressed etc. but she had a look of pure terror in her eyes. You could see the fear. Why doesn't our society do more to help? It breaks my heart tbh. sad

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:37:27

I know k8. Horrible, isn't it?

gamerchick Wed 17-Jul-13 19:38:49

Oh FFS.. nobody is ticking anybody off.

Remove the emotion from the facts.. the site now has to repair damage to a caravan due to a guests behaviour. That is a fact.. it has to come out of their own pocket. They don't have to make allowances when it'll clearly state that damage to any part of the site will mean ejection.

Yes it's appalling what happened to the lady and horrible for her kids and no it it is not her fault but the facts still remain from the holiday parks policy.

It's not their fault that this man kicked off and smashed up his rented caravan and smashed in his partners nose.. they should not have to make allowances. What is going on in this womans life is not their problem.

It's sad but it's the way it is.

Ulysses Wed 17-Jul-13 19:39:20

Quint, I am really dismayed by your comments, total victim blaming. Well done Clementine for speaking up. Hope the woman and her family are okay.

I'm another holiday maker and I wasn't distressed by her presence. I'm distressed about the way she is been treated by the park though.

Have to go and get dd showered. Be back later.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 19:39:45

I think you have helped and I bet she won't forget you.

handcream Wed 17-Jul-13 19:40:11

Did she press charges? If she didnt then it could possibly happen again. Yes, I agree she needs to be supported in getting this man out of her life but having had a relative in a similar position. They fib and cover up, sadly I agree, if she didnt press charges then it could kick off again and perhaps get others involved.

mynewpassion Wed 17-Jul-13 19:41:42

Maybe the manager should press charges

Pimpf Wed 17-Jul-13 19:42:53

Fwiw I think you did the right thing, I don't know what else you could have done to change the managers mind but at least the woman knew she had someone on her side

Darkesteyes Wed 17-Jul-13 19:44:56

Shocked but sadly not surprised at the victim blaming on this thread.

Disastronaut Wed 17-Jul-13 19:45:27

Just want to echo what many other commenters have said, OP. I'm so glad you took the time to speak to the woman involved and to the manager. His attitude stinks, but it's too common - as we've seen from a few posts here:

Quintessential: 'it doesn't give them a right to ruin other people's holidays'.
Yes, that's the important thing here, isn't it? We can't have nasty disruptive people like that spoiling the hard earned fun of decent law-abiding families, can we now?

And as for 'by staying with him, she's accepting it', you're sadly uninformed about the financial, emotional and practical constraints that women suffering domestic violence face.

MrsDeVere Wed 17-Jul-13 19:46:46

The policy doesn't take into account any nuances
All the big parks have zero tolerance on violence and severe anti social behavior.
They don't care about the whys and wherefores. They just want the perpetrators off the park asap so they can preserve their image.
People going on holiday are buying a little dream where bad things don't happen.

It ISN'T right. I would feel the same as you OP.

Fact is, on some sites a group of stag or hen doers would get a warning and told if they did it again they would be off.

Because some sorts of anti social behaviour are more palatable than others hmm

MorrisZapp Wed 17-Jul-13 19:46:57

What a horrible thing to have happened. I don't really see why the holiday park should get involved with who did what though - they have a party who have caused a disturbance and smashed doors etc. It isn't their job or place to decide who trashed their caravan, I don't think they're being unreasonable asking them to leave.

The woman was planning to leave anyway, wasn't she?

Hissy Wed 17-Jul-13 19:48:29

Could you write to the HO and ask them to review their policies, and not classify DV as something that has equal blame on both sides?

The management needs to be able to exercise some discretion, and staff needs to be trained to help somehow.

Holidays ARE flashpoints for DV, due to often cramped accommodation, and isolation/living in close provimity.

internationallove985 Wed 17-Jul-13 19:49:09

That poor women and her poor dear little children... I hope she finds the strength to leave this disgusting peice of work. Isn't he brave hitting a women I assume the mother of his children as well. I wonder how tough he'd be when faced with a man!
I don't think that poor women and her children should have been asked to leave because she got a beating. It was support she needed. x

ParsingFancy Wed 17-Jul-13 19:49:36

I get throwing the perpetrator off the park.

I don't get that the victim is the perpetrator.

tittytittyhanghang Wed 17-Jul-13 19:49:50

Im on the fence with this one too, having lived with a violent step father and then for 7 years next to fuckin awful neighbours, and i mean both of them, not just the man.

something2say Wed 17-Jul-13 19:50:26

Women typically experience 23 incidents before they come forward in any way, and they usually then come forward for some reason. Maybe he made a threat to kill her and she thinks he is serious. Maybe he crossed a line in some way. But before that they stay, for a multitude of reasons. Maybe she believes him when he says he will put petrol thro her mothers door. Maybe she doesn't work and believes him when he says she'll never make it alone. Maye she drinks too much to drown him out and he says he will report her to social services. Maybe she loves him and they talk about it and he says he will change and she believes him, or she wants someone to explain to him why he is wrong and then he will change.

It is really important to be sensitive to women coming forward.

There are no laws regarding adults who want to stay in abusive situations and they are fee to go through their mental proces of trying to understand the behaviour and rationalising it etc.

There ARE laws regarding children who are forced to be in these situations because no one is taking action.

I am sad to hear of this man and his attitude.

I am also sad to hear of some people who don't understand why women stay. It is really important that we don't blame women. I know it angers us sometimes. It angers me sometimes but I try to understand what it is like.

I also remember being a victim of child abuse and there as no way in HELL I would rat on my mother. Would people take me away that day or would I have to go home with her knowing she knows I told? There was no way I could betray her. I would be in for it.

When I was abused I was completely lone. No one helped or could help, I felt. I faced her angry twisted face inches from mine and heard her burnt as she out everything she had into each belt on my body, it was fast and furious and she shouted and screamed and hared up and down. The best thing to do is report what you see, make statements, report to social services and try to challenge each issue with victim blames as they come up.

I do believe that wider society needs to help victims and that means not ignoring, not blaming, but taking what is right and good action, becaus the victim often can't.

Well done the woman who started this and the other one at the same campsite. It may be worth ringing the police department where you are and seeing if an automatic social services report was put in because it should have been. That will mean the kids are picked up and from there, the whole family. Nurses should also report these sorts of injuries.

Some of the comments towards the victim are really awful. We haven't come far after all.

MorrisZapp Wed 17-Jul-13 19:52:29

Do caravan parks, hotels etc usually have DV policies, and training etc with handling DV? I've never heard of this.

TurnipCake Wed 17-Jul-13 19:54:39

It took a great deal of courage to do what you did Clementine. I'm sure your kindness won't be forgotten.

Chattymummyhere Wed 17-Jul-13 19:59:04

It's site rules... My site won't even let same gender bookings due to possible hen/stag...

Very sad for her though after everything but rules are rules and they are there to protect everyone

MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour Wed 17-Jul-13 20:01:04

Maybe they have a blanket policy because they can not be sure who in a party caused the damage, I'm sure in this case the woman was the victim but I'm also sure they've had guests where it has been both parties causing the damage or they cannot tell who is to blame

Well done for speaking up though op

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 20:01:17

Bloody hell something that's terrible. I'm sorry you went through that sad.

You are right, people need to stand up for the victims of DV because often they can't do it themselves.

I'm sure this sounds soppy or whatever but I feel so sad, imagining the kids looking forward to the holiday and all of them walking on eggshells wondering whether their Dad would kick off and ruin it.

tittytittyhanghang Wed 17-Jul-13 20:06:24

Flippinada, as a child of dv, there were no holidays to look forward to because it was same shit different settings. As for laws being place to protect children in these situations, my neighbours children, the eldest one had to endure 6 years of hell before she was removed, luckily the youngest only a few months.

SconeRhymesWithGone Wed 17-Jul-13 20:06:37

It took a great deal of courage to do what you did Clementine. I'm sure your kindness won't be forgotten.

And sometimes one act of kindness like this is a turning point for a victim of domestic violence.

NameoftheRose Wed 17-Jul-13 20:12:21

Well done Clementine, I'm so glad you spoke to this woman and showed her concern and compassion.

The victim blaming on this thread is shocking. Feels like another time-slip thread. Oh look, we're in the 50s.

kelda Wed 17-Jul-13 20:13:37

Well done ClementineKelandra.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 20:14:16

Yes, sadly, I can imagine that being the case tittytittyhanghang.

OhWesternWind Wed 17-Jul-13 20:29:36

Well done OP, wish there were more like you out there and fewer of the turn a blind eye or victim-blaming type out there.

Absolutely appalled and saddened by some of the statements from posters on this thread who have no idea at all about the psychology of a victim of DV, or the obstacles facing this poor woman in leaving her violent partner.

Nobody is ticking off Clementine here. Sorry you feel that way though.

You did a good thing calling for help for her.

I honestly think it is terrifying to be on the outside of DV. I have had to call both ss and police in the past for a neighbour. Not much anybody can do really when they keep getting back together again. My neighbour eventually got a restraining order on her boyfriend.

I am not victim blaming. I am trying to see it from the holiday park point of view. They have a duty of care to all their guests, not just one. And they need to avert a pr disaster, as well as guests cancelling and demanding their money back. In addition to having one caravan to repair, they could possibly face hundreds of guest demanding their money back for a ruined holiday due to violent thug repeatedly terrifying guests (children too) to get to his dp. The holiday park could lose thousands of pounds, and get in to financial trouble.

zippey Wed 17-Jul-13 20:44:57

This sounds like a shocking incident, but there is only one person to blame and that is the partner. The camp manager does not have any emotional investment in his customer, and that is how it should be. If a bunch of rowdy people were loud and caused damage, the whole group should be evicted, not just the perpetrators.

I don't get why the holiday camp is being accused of being part of the problem here. They have policies in place. Managers are often told not to become emotionally involved in incidents, just like nurses, social workers etc

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 20:50:24

How I feel is neither here nor there.

You said the abused woman was "colluding with her partner" and implied that the abuser might come after OP and her family.

flippinada. Yes. I did say that. From the holiday parks perspective, this is the kind of thing they might wish to avoid. When their guards came to check on the woman, she said she was ok, so in their eyes could be seen to collude with her dp.

Wow absolutely shocking some of the comments on here. Some of you sound totally selfish.

Well done for standing up for the woman. I hope she finds the strength to leave him and soon.

Lweji Wed 17-Jul-13 21:09:55

I have all sympathy for this woman, and would gladly drive her myself to a refuge, TBH.

From the point of view of a business, like a holiday park, I might be asking myself if her partner was likely to return to assault her again (and trash the place again) and might consider whether she had pressed charges, or at least testified about his trashing the place.

However, it seems that the attitude of the manager was not simply of concern with business, but victim blaming. And so, shame on him.

OP, I hope you have pointed her in the direction of WA.

I dont think holiday park managers get any dv training. Maybe they should. Maybe there should be procedures in place to offer help and support to victims, in such places where families holiday. However, not everybody would want to accept the help, and I dont think you can force WA or SS on people based on what could be a one off. Or could you?

"I have all sympathy for this woman, and would gladly drive her myself to a refuge, TBH."

I know, I have lost count of how many dv threads I see here, where I just want to swoop in and teleport women and children to safety.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 21:14:55

Ok. Your posts struck me as unsympathetic but I appreciate that 'tone' is hard to put across.

flippinada Wed 17-Jul-13 21:16:44

Depending on where in the UK they are, if police are called then SS are notified - that's the case in Scotland but don't know if it applies elsewhere.

Hissy Wed 17-Jul-13 21:25:23

If the DV message were spread sooner, so that our Dc, in addition to knowing that you can't use the N word, or be homophobic, are taught that violence is wrong, and violence towards a partner is wrong too.

The message of equality MUST include gender as well as race or sexual orientation.

Our society is objectifying women, demonising m'en and that's only going to end in disaster.

ALL public facing roles need to be aware of how to help the victim of DV.

Everyone needs to have the facts to challenge bigotry or fuckwittery when they see it.

It would send a message to perps that they're NOT tolerated, and THEN they'll have to modify their behaviour, or be shunned by those they seek to impress.

something2say Wed 17-Jul-13 21:29:38

Well said Hissy.

In addition, I wish to call out the difference between colluding and being too shit scared to say anything. And the men quickly walked away from her did they not? Very easy to just ignore, minimise and blame.

But there is a difference between her colluding and her being too afraid to say.

And when it comes to taking the man back, time after time, this is the cycle of abuse.

tittytittyhanghang Wed 17-Jul-13 21:37:08

If the DV message were spread sooner, so that our Dc, in addition to knowing that you can't use the N word, or be homophobic, are taught that violence is wrong, and violence towards a partner is wrong too.

But this wouldn't help the children who are witnessing DV in their home, and i really do believe it is a viscous cycle, with those children exposed to DV far more likely to then carry it out when they are older.

Hissy Wed 17-Jul-13 23:50:56

Perhaps the children would seek help at school, via S'S, NSPCC? Perhaps that'd give the family the support, the ear, the shoulder, that's so badly needed.

If a child grows up in a DV situation, they will mimic it, until they realise it's NOT normal.

If their mother was a product of DV in her parent's relationship, she'd not know.

We can't NOT try to draw a line somewhere! Let's stop it with THIS generation, or the next, but doing nothing is not an option.

Look at our beautiful society! Look at how we DO try to create harmony, and equality. Look at the legal rights we have.

Outside our country it's a very different story! We're looked on as an inspiration to many, an example. Our legal system forms the basis of other nations legal systems, why not our approach to how women are seen, treated?

If we fight hard here, other countries like India and the Middle East will draw strength from our example.

Why not?

What have we got to lose?

If we do nothing, we'll lose it all. DV is not acceptable in modern decent society.

We don't tolerate it here.

Now we just need to convey that message to those that kill 2 women a week in our land, and those who cause the abuse in 1 in 4 women, and 1 in 8 men.

We need to throw our support behind the victims, without too many questions either, and make it blatant that victims of DV will be believed and supported.

cestlavielife Wed 17-Jul-13 23:56:24

Thing is though the woman would be better off going home, seeing her gp, getting her Injuries recorded aNd treated and local women's services and ss involved to get the help she needs to protect her dc. Now while bruises are fresh.

Staying on site for more days holiday so her bruises can recede wont help her at all long term. And as she said to op they didn't want to stay anyway...

Witnessing dv is terrifying, I can understand why site asked her to leave as they now had a damaged caravan and In case of recurrence. She needs to be somewhere she can be supported and a holiday park isn't that place and doesn't have Trained people there. Whether this was one off first time or a repeat situation. Which we don't know,,, We don't know if they went on holiday together or he suddenly appeared having tracked her down...

Ok so manager wasn't au fait with dv - he should have said "you need to leave so you can get your injuries recorded,Now when they fresh, so you can the right help go speak to your local police dv unit, ss to help you and your solicitor " - but that is a broader issue in society... And in fact his view that she wouldnt presS charges has been backed up by later posters who have said it take xx time sof dv before a woman leaves etcetc....

But if she was beaten up she needed to be in hospital or making sure there was restraining order etc etc ...She needed to be reacting proactively to this incident and talking to solicitors etc .... not staying on at holiday park. Sending her home to maybe hopefully take some action get some help talk to someone maybe is best thing.

tittytittyhanghang Thu 18-Jul-13 00:18:37

I just dont think children should be subject to growing up in a dv environment full stop. By the time they are at school they may have already endured 5 years of witnessing dv. Given the experience of my neighbour who was beaten on regular basis, it took 7 years before her chilren were removed (eldest 3 refused to go back and the youngest were eventually taken off her) and imo thats far too long, the damage has already been done. NSPCC, can they actually do anything? I dont know what the answer is but its criminal that children are being brought up with dv.

tittytittyhanghang Thu 18-Jul-13 00:25:14

I know that ultimately it is the man's fault for causing the violence but as a child victim of dv i have no qualms in apportioning some of the blame on my mother. Imo she chose to stay with a violent prick to the negative detriment of her children. I see that as a clear failure of duty towards her children. At least in the early days she could claim that she had no where to go but by the time i was older there was more provisions for battered women.

thecook Thu 18-Jul-13 00:30:21

QuentiessentialOldDear Have some fucking empathy

perfectstorm Thu 18-Jul-13 00:48:19

OP I think it's brilliant that you tried. The failure of the holiday camp manager to grasp that a crime victim is not equally responsible for her attack is just depressing.

Outside our country it's a very different story! We're looked on as an inspiration to many, an example. Our legal system forms the basis of other nations legal systems, why not our approach to how women are seen, treated?If we fight hard here, other countries like India and the Middle East will draw strength from our example.

I don't think we're in any position to lecture much of the world on gender equality, quite frankly. Sure, it's better than in India or Saudi Arabia or even the USA, but we aren't remotely equal or anything like it.

And we aren't looked on as an inspiration and example, because we spread our legal system via invading other countries, and either killing most of the locals or ruthlessly exploiting them. Sorry, but that kind of revisionist history makes me very uncomfortable. There's nothing admirable about colonialism, and the Mission To Civilise the Native is a figleaf for exploitation - always was.

ToomuchIsBackOnBootcamp Thu 18-Jul-13 01:22:50

I can so tell on this thread who has been in a situation of abuse, and the "black is black, white is white, end of story" simplistic rationale of those who have never (luckily) experienced the paralysing on-going terror of it.

I really hope and pray that lady takes courage from your kindness OP and finds the strength to make the changes for her and her children.

K8Middleton Thu 18-Jul-13 01:38:04

Well I've thankfully never experienced DV personally and neither has anyone close to me (that I know of), nor have I had any special DV related training. But I do possess empathy and half a brain. For me it's really easy:

Punish the abuser not the abused

Don't make comparisons or try to draw analogies of DV from any subjects unrelated to violent criminal acts against the person. If you persist in doing so, don't be surprised if people think less of your intellect and more that you might be a bit unpleasant.

Just because the abuser is known to the victim does not make the victim responsible.

Or just simply... Don't victim blame.

See? Not that hard is it.

RoooneyMara Thu 18-Jul-13 10:32:16

TooMuch, I would be cautious about saying you can tell. Probably there are some that might surprise you.

OctopusPete8 Thu 18-Jul-13 10:41:42

I am horrified at her injuries poor woman, I hope she has pressed charges!!!angry god if he's happy to behave like that there how does he behave at home sad
but as someone with a lot of experience and generational knowledge of domestic violence, I can see another angle here.

As awful as this sounds the victim is often an simpering mess and makes very stupid decisions, I could probably guarantee that if she was allowed to remain he would be back, , cue another violent episode, and another, and another...I would be pretty livid having my own kids exposed to that, the cycle I've worked myself to the bone never to repeat. for the purpose of 'not victim blaming' someone who will not protect her children.

donshardhat I'm not a monster.

Yes, well done for talking to the manager. He could do with showing a bit more empathy, as can others on this thread.
That said, I guess it can be very frustrating when you see people defend their abuser again and again. Stockholm syndrome? However, more sympathy from society at large will hopefully help people on the receiving end of abuse to think it is NOT them but the abuser who is at fault, and they need not fear telling on him/her, because they will be protected.

ReallyTired Thu 18-Jul-13 10:53:51

The caravan has been trashed and prehaps the woman is not prepared to press charges or able to pay for the damages. Prehaps the caravan is not fit for habitation and the site have nowhere else to put the family. It is not a caravan's site job to re habilate domestic violence victims.

Domestic violence is a common reason for children being permamently taken into care. Domestic violence affects the women's ablity to think and does destroy confidence.

Sad as it is, but the caravan site owner needs to take into account all the holiday makers. Frankly it would be better for the woman to move into a woman's refuge (assuming there are places) than stay at the site.

chamonixlover Thu 18-Jul-13 10:57:29

I am disgusted that one person here has no concept at all of what it's like to be on the receiving end of DV, is unable to empathize. Well done OP, it sometimes takes someone like you to enable victims of DV to exit their situation. It's far far harder than anyone without experience could imagine. Glad to see most posters have the ability to empathize. I'd have taken that family home and housed them for as long as it takes, even if it meant cramped housing. Just one person standing up for DV victims can change their lives. DV victims lose the ability to control their lives often and it takes a "do-gooder" sometimes to help them re-establish control.

OctopusPete8 Thu 18-Jul-13 11:02:53

I do Chamon, I made that very I was also a child in that situation, children trump in that situation.

It was a verbal shake in both situations that was needed and helped.
Another poster mad a point about a violent enabling family on the loose is really not on.

What if OP's DH had tried to help and been beaten within a inch and her kids had to witness it?

OctopusPete8 Thu 18-Jul-13 11:03:36

I assume you're referring to me Chamon,

burberryqueen Thu 18-Jul-13 11:12:31

what if she swung the first punch?
what if he came back for more?
quite honestly i do not blame the caravan park management.
but who knows really?
you did well OP for discussing it with the management who have to consider all the people there.

burberryqueen Thu 18-Jul-13 11:13:25

also can i point out there is no longer such a thing as an individual 'pressing charges' it is now up to the police and CPS.

ReallyTired Thu 18-Jul-13 11:16:26

If the abusiver is the principle person on the form then the only way the caravan site can get rid of him is to get rid of whole party. If the woman is not prepared to press charges then the caravan site owner has no choice than to evict the entire party.

Having empathy with a victim of domestic violence does not mean enabling the situation to continue. I have been the victim of domestic violence and believe that the caravan site owner made the right decision.

I feel sorry for the children who have to live with situation day in and day out. Their childhood has been destroyed.

ReallyTired Thu 18-Jul-13 11:45:30

" individual 'pressing charges' it is now up to the police and CPS."

The individual can cooperate with the police and CPS pressing charges if she chooses to. Since the woman is the only adult witness of what happened then it is difficult to make a sucessful case unless she actively wanting redress.

It is hard for a caravan site to take sides without at least the man having a caution.

perfectstorm Thu 18-Jul-13 12:02:22

It is hard for a caravan site to take sides without at least the man having a caution.

OP clearly stated that he was on probation and was taken straight back to prison by the police. And the victim had a broken nose.

Interesting how so many read that and say it's hard for the manager to know what to think.

His partner is a victim of a violent crime, and the assailant being an intimate partner is an aggravating feature, not an excuse. She is not responsible, and as he is in jail for breach of his license, presumably, how can he be a risk to anyone at the park?

kelda Thu 18-Jul-13 12:39:18

Gosh some of the responses on this thread are depressing.

If the woman had been attacked and caravan trashed by another other customer on the caravan site, do you still think she would have been chucked out of the park? You can't even argue that he will come back to the park following her, as the police returned him to jail.

I think it's about time to post this response to a question to Patrick Stewart about his experience of domestic violence.


Ezio Thu 18-Jul-13 12:54:51

Clem, well done for speaking up, if we spoke up more, maybe women like her might see they have real options to get away.

But sadly in UK, its the victims who lose their rights more than the transgressors.

OctopusPete8 Thu 18-Jul-13 13:08:55

You can't really compare the 2 kelda,

a DV relationship is more likely to enabled further by the victim rather than a random attack.

kelda Thu 18-Jul-13 13:15:19

'a DV relationship is more likely to enabled further by the victim rather than a random attack.'

shock at the blatent victim blaming.

OctopusPete8 Thu 18-Jul-13 13:18:58

its not victim blaming at all, but its very often the victim will forgive and allow the behaviour to continue due to mental wearing down,its not nice but the HM has a responsibility to the safety of other users.

kelda Thu 18-Jul-13 13:22:38

Quite how is he a threat to other holiday makers when he is in prison?

K8Middleton Thu 18-Jul-13 13:24:58

The victim might...

She could do...

She may enable...

And if she does do something then sanction her. But until she does something punishing her is grossly unfair.

Although quite what she will enable with him in prison I don't know confused

well done op. you really did do the right thing. poor woman and poor dc's. hope she finds the strength to do the right thing

some of these replies are bloody awful sad

MrsBungle Thu 18-Jul-13 14:17:39

titty I just want to say I agree with what you've said. I was a child of domestic violence too. I witnessed and heard (almost worse) terrible violence from my dad to my mum for my first 10 years. I would go into my little brothers bedroom and put my hands over his ears. My house was regularly like we'd been burgled.

As a child who doesn't understand what on earth is going on - and believe me I absolutely knew it was not normal, it is a terrifying way to live through absolutely no choice of your own.

TheRealFellatio Thu 18-Jul-13 14:32:24

Exactly what gamer said. It's awfully sad for the woman and children involved, but it is not the problem of the park management to embroil themselves in the individual politics of domestic disputes. The police were called, the man was dealt with, their caravan is damaged and their site's atomsphere and image has been tarred by a troublesome, anti-social person. Every season there will be a handful of incidents that mean they have to ask certain parties to leave the site - they do not have the time nor the inclination to start morally philosophising over each individual case. They have a policy to adhere to for the wellbeing and comfort of all of their customers.

You were very thoughtful to get involved and I hope that the woman appreciated your concern and kindness.

Dahlen Thu 18-Jul-13 14:33:35

From a hardnosed business perspective, I can see why the manager behaved as he did.

From a human decency perspective, I can't understand why he didn't offer the woman an alternative caravan - enabling him to repair the damaged caravan and giving her the opportunity for a few days of space and safety.

It's true that many victims of DV enable their abusers, but the solution is not to abandon them for it with a "it's impossible to help them until they're ready to leave" attitude. Gentle, persistent reinforcement of the fact that DV is wrong can chip away at their mindset. Contrary to popular belief, most women do leave - eventually.

TheRealFellatio Thu 18-Jul-13 14:38:25

I don't think anyone is blaming the victim at all. They are just acknowledging that the park management will have a policy re: damage and anti-social behaviour that means that all of the party will be removed - it is just not feasible/practical for all sorts of reasons to remove one, or part of the party. It's that simple - nothing to do with lack of compassion for the woman. They are two separate issues.

No victim of domestic violence enables the assaults.

That's like saying a victim enabled a rape by wearing a short skirt. Or a victim enabled a mugging by walking down the street with a handbag.

I'm not sure if I made it clear in my op but I saw a lot of what went on because all their curtains and windows were wide open. Also it was dark and their lights were on.

I saw him pacing up and down the caravan. I saw her trying to shut the door to keep away from him and then I saw him kicking the door until it came off its hinges. I saw him punching at somebody on the floor and the kids on the other side of the living area screaming mummy. sad

I am on my own here with dd. I'm not frightened of him coming after me. I won't be scared into submission by a nasty bully who beats up women. I would stand up to him time after time if I had to. I will not stand by and do nothing why our society continues to allow these men to get away with abusing their partners.

And let's talk about enabling shall we? Attitudes like some expressed on this thread are enabling DV, victim blaming is enabling DV.

OctopusPete8 Thu 18-Jul-13 15:48:50

I would maybe have offered her a caravan on a sister site, ?

probably safer.

How did he find her on holiday ? did he find her or take him with her?

cestlavielife Thu 18-Jul-13 15:59:51

but this lady needs to have quick access to medical and other support and getting the injuries recorded - not have a few more days holiday while everything subsides.

unless she local to home then makes more sense she goes home to get the local support she needs to make sure the injuries and assault are recorded properly; get a restriaining order and occupation order or whatever is needed etc. she can't do all that in a holiday park and give her dc a holiday etc...she needs support and her dc to be looked after while she attends police dv support, solicitor, court if needed etc .

and that he is charged and that her dc are safe.

she didnt have an accident - she was assaulted and that needs to be addressed - i would guess it is hard to do all the necessary in a caravan park unless it is located close to her home and she can acceess soilcitor etc while there.

better she goes home, sorts it out and then takes dc later in a month or so for a calm peaceful holiday.

ReallyTired Thu 18-Jul-13 16:14:03

"No victim of domestic violence enables the assaults.

That's like saying a victim enabled a rape by wearing a short skirt. Or a victim enabled a mugging by walking down the street with a handbag."

However a victim is not completely and utterly helpless and powerless either. No woman is that weedy.

Domestic violence is very different in that it is repeated. The victim chooses to live with the aggressor inspite of repeated attacks. Did the victim choose to let her attacker into the caravan.

I imagine that a caravan site insures its caravans against damage and the insurance company requires them to throw out a party who wreck a caravan.

At this time of year caravan sites do not have lots of spare caravans.

zippey Thu 18-Jul-13 16:40:20

I think the park manager did the right thing by his business, its what I would have done too. The victim needs to help themselves before other people help, by pressing charges. It's not a black and white situation but in that respect the victim is enabling her abuser if she stays with him/her.

And what sort of parent is she picking the abuser over the sanity of her children?

Anyway, this is probably a different conversation, but the park manager did the right thing

Dahlen Thu 18-Jul-13 16:42:53

Clementine - you're right to pick up on my clumsy choice of wording. I didn't meant to imply that the victim was responsible in any way. What I meant was that by not leaving they are exposed to further abuse, but I should have made it clearer that IMO this doesn't make them responsible because the reasons behind not leaving are so complex and part of the abuser's armoury.

tittytittyhanghang Thu 18-Jul-13 20:22:01

MrsBungle, im sorry to hear of your childhood, similiar to mine except the dv was extended our way as well! Its not right that any child should have to experience that, and sometimes i do think that after the first outburst, if the victim chooses to stay then the children should be removed without havin to subject them to years of dv first. Ill never understand why my mother put a man before the welfare of her children because that is what it comes down to for me.

Give me strength...

Maryz Thu 18-Jul-13 20:37:43

Bloody hell.

I'm finding it hard to believe some of these replies.

LEMisdisappointed Thu 18-Jul-13 20:45:16

I don't know if anyone has said this already but for me, the "decent" thing for the holiday park to do would be to offer this woman a complimentary break (possibly at another park) as they had to cut her holiday short.

LEMisdisappointed Thu 18-Jul-13 20:48:07

There are unbelievable posts on here - that women "choose" to live with abuse. That these women are bad parents!!

really? People think that?? <boggles>

OddSockMonster Thu 18-Jul-13 21:08:06

That really sounds horrific for her, that really is great that you called the police and spoke up for her, and too her Clementine, I hope it made that little bit of difference for her to be able to leave.

Re: the site manager's opinon of her actions (including saying it was all okay to the security guards), could you possibly e-mail them a link or something that would explain how she behaved as she did? And maybe copy in the head office? Might have no effect at all and get ingored, but you never know.

tittytittyhanghang Thu 18-Jul-13 21:09:58

as a child victim of dv, yeah i do bloody believe it. My mother stayed with a man that beat the shit out of her and her children. I didn't get a choice in the matter. So as far as im concerned some of the blame for my shit childhood lies at her door as well.

Junebugjr Thu 18-Jul-13 21:16:11

I think the issue of DV needs to acheive a balance.
I don't think the view of 'its your fault if you continue to stay with him' is helpful.
I dont think 'the poor woman/victim/helpless' approach works in real life either , particularly not in a professional setting working with DV. Attitudes and society has changed now, this isn't the 1900's where women have nowhere to go, there are choices.This is reflected with SS now taking a more firm line on women who chose to stay with abusive partners, after countless episodes in front of children.
Women need to be more educated about DV, with programmes run in schools more frequently, with an emphasis on emotional abuse and control, where it seems to start, gradually escalating, and before you know it, your smack bang in the middle of an abusive relationship.

I often think there needs to be a more open dialogue on DV, it's sort of become one of those topics (like religion/burka etc) that has a knee jerk reaction and isn't discussed openly like it should be, and just has people weighing in with the how terrible, poor woman remarks. I've seen threads on here that clearly state the woman is culpable in abuse of children but because she is in an abusive relationship that sort of absolves her.

In answer to your OP, yes I think the holiday park could have handled it better grin. How kind you were OP.

Lweji Thu 18-Jul-13 21:40:52

The fact is that children can be taken away from their mothers because they fail to protect them from DV.

The women who fail to protect their children need help. But they are still being bad parents in the sense that they cannot be trusted with their children, while they are exposed to the abuser.
That's where we, as a society, come in to give as much support as possible to these women and their children. Not only at institutional level, but also as family, friends and neighbours.
As June said, we need more information and support too.

But, when the support is there, and if we keep going back to those men, because they miss them, or whatever, it's hard to be sympathetic.

I am also saying this as a victim of DV, who got away as soon as DS was potentially on the line.
I know I was not to blame for what exH did to me, but I would blame me if I had let DS come to harm, knowing of exH threats and behaviour. As exH decided to expose DS to violence, after I left, I have ensured there would be a smaller chance for it to be repeated.

I understand that for some women it's so much more difficult and they have been much more damaged, but we should also demand that they (we) take some responsibility towards their (our) safety and of their (our) children.
That includes LTB, reporting to the police, and so on.

This is not in relation to the original case, because we don't know the history.

Lackedpunchesforever Thu 18-Jul-13 22:00:36

It's 2013.

And the attitudes on this thread are horrific sad

OP you are amazing. I wish someone like you had spoken up for me.

ReallyTired Thu 18-Jul-13 22:50:27

The victim of DV is only one person in a situation. Social workers look at the affects on the people around them. ie. children. Infact DV is an extremely common reason for children being taken into care.

I experienced a violent relationship at 19. It pychologically knocked me for six. However there is a difference between needing help and being helpless. I believe that women being passive in a violent relationship is a genetic throw back to cavemen days when women were kidnapped and taken hundreds of miles away from their families by a different tribe. Ten thousand years ago to run away from DV situation endangered the lives of a woman and her children.

i believe that depression makes it harder for a woman to break away from an abusive relationship. I believe a CBT type approach would help women in such relationships.

The children of DV relationships need extensive help so that they can break the cycle.

edam Thu 18-Jul-13 23:06:15

Good grief, some of the posts on this thread are chilling in their contempt for victims of violence.

Posters who blame victims - do you realise that a woman is most at risk of being killed when she leaves the aggressor? You are demanding that people who are already at risk put their lives, and the lives of the children, on the line.

What victims need is support, not blaming. They need help, they need access to a place of safety, they need money to survive, they need shelter, they need all sorts of things that the rest of us are very bad at providing. That shames us, not them.

We don't blame victims of muggings for being mugged, do we? We don't demand that they fight off the attacker, do we? Yet somehow some people blame victims of domestic violence, and demand that these downtrodden, weary, brutalised women (mainly) sort the whole ruddy problem out.

And yes, some social workers are ignorant, and threaten victims of domestic violence, instead of acting against the aggressor. These social workers need to take some responsibility for educating themselves and ensuring their advice is safe, not dangerous. They should never demand that victims take responsibility for the crimes committed against them.

There is a poster on MN who is a social worker herself. She - and her children - were victims of domestic violence. Her neighbours heard the screams, and called the police, who called social services. Who threatened her that if she didn't leave, the kids would be taken into care. So the poster took the next beating in silence. And the next. She'd learned that if she cried out, she'd be threatened and punished and her kids would be threatened and punished too.

She did eventually manage to leave. But only once she'd got somewhere to go, and worked out a way to leave without being killed in the process.

ravenAK Thu 18-Jul-13 23:13:36

Had the woman & the partner who'd had the violent altercation both still been on site, wanting to continue their holiday together - fine, ask the entire party to leave.

Since the bloke had been arrested it would seem the obvious thing to ban him from returning, & allow his victim & her dc to stay. I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to fix the damaged doors etc whilst they were on site.

Well done OP for supporting her.

K8Middleton Thu 18-Jul-13 23:19:53

CBT? Wtaf.

DV abuse victims don't need CBT. They need safe havens to flee to and lots of practical help and support, but most of all they need the purportraiter of violence removed and punished in such a way they cannot continue their criminal acts.

Sparklyboots Thu 18-Jul-13 23:27:03

As a child victim of DV, I can understand anger with women who don't leave men who are violent to them and their children. However, I have realised that all of the blame for the violence lies with the perpetrator and have felt able to let go of my anger that she did not protect me. In fact, the idea (that we all shared in my DV family) that my mum was responsible or enabling was part of the doublethink that kept her there. Actually when she realised that he just was violent and always would be she was able to leave. But she had a supportive family, somewhere to run, and a conviction that if she did so, she wouldn't be tracked down and killed, and her children would be safe. These are significant aspects of the situation that people shouldn't assume are common to all situations. The way that DV happens, inside a family system, makes thinking with this kind of clarity very very difficult and it is completely understandable that an emotionally exhausted woman might not be able to achieve it. It is right to support those women and not condemn them.

OP, well done for speaking to the owner. I also think offering a replacement holiday for her and her DCs (on the condition they come without the violent man) would be the stylish way for the holiday park people to handle this.

I think they should offer her another holiday too.

I can't tell you how disappointed I am by some of the posts on this thread.

ageofgrandillusion Thu 18-Jul-13 23:55:57

The only victims here are the children, end of. Everybody else had - or has - a choice in the matter.

minkembernard Fri 19-Jul-13 00:00:10

OP well done flowers your compassion does you credit.

Actually there was something more the site manager could have done. they could have sent site security back after her partner had been arrested to find out if she was really ok and if there was anything they could do and if he was likely to come back.

but what evicting this woman tells her and what some attitudes on this thread tell her (the vocal minority thankfully) is that she is partly to blame. and that is precisely one of the things that keeps the victims of DV in their situation. her abuser will have been telling her it was her fault and now so are other people.

presumably the fact that he was arrested and his license revoked means he was in fact charged.

and the assumption that she is going to take him back and that she is allowing this to happen is just that an assumption based on prejudice. maybe he is out on license because she has already had him charged and convicted. maybe he tracked her down and belted her one because she had him charged.
maybe, maybe not. but some posters already seem to think they know. she is one of those women. you know the ones who choose to be abused.

they should not only teach respect in school but also how complex issues around abuse are. Lundy Bancroft should be compulsory reading. Few posters on this thread could do with borrowing a copy from the library.

OP did the.police take a statement from you?

someone up thread said she is the only adult witness. not true. the police can take statements from people who heard or saw anything related to the incident.

OP - didn't you know? Quite a lot of mumsnetters have never made a mistake in their lives, ever.

minkembernard Fri 19-Jul-13 00:14:14

tall snort. grin

soovait Fri 19-Jul-13 00:16:28

Have never posted under this name but had to say that this thread has absolutely broken my heart. Posters who I look up to have engaged in some of the worst victim-blaming I have read in a long time. sad

I grew up in a DV household and now, 40 years later my parents are still together. And I still speak to them both. No matter what issues I have with my mum - and I have a LOT - I never blamed and still don't blame her for what my dad did. That's all on him.

All you posters who have said variations on 'she should get herself out of there or she's equally responsible' I hope the next time you go to post on a EA/DV thread you remember your words on this thread and feel ashamed. (Awaits flaming)

Clem Think you're brilliant for what you did.

minkembernard Fri 19-Jul-13 00:22:27

ageof surely the children could choose to run away could they not if you take that argument to it's logical conclusion.hmm

so what that they have no money, that their parents may come and find them and take them home and it might be worse than before, or that they have nowhere to go? they are enabling their own situation by staying hmm

thankfully the law and more enlightened people do not agree with you.

myfriendflicka Fri 19-Jul-13 06:38:39

Clementine, you are great.

Disgusting victim blaming on this thread. It makes me too angry and disappointed to respond fully. Try looking at yourself, those responsible. But you are far too smug/misguided to do that, unfortunately.

I am all for naming and shaming the holiday park for their "policy". Do all holiday parks have this policy? Do they have any sort of umbrella organisation that could be approached? I agree with Mrs De Vere re nuances, but it just isn't good enough.

Giving people bad publicity is one way of getting them to look at themselves. It hurts them in the pocket and makes other people think - would you want to go on holiday somewhere, and give them your money, when they do things like this? I wouldn't.

Interesting that there are pages and pages of theorising here - people trying to understand the policy - why?!!!!!

One thing about Mumsnet that could be very positive because you can harness people's collective voice to change things for the better.

The circumstances in which domestic violence flourishes - secrecy, shame, she's "enabling" him (what the fuck!!) it's her fault for staying (!!!!) ....there needs to be an open debate which will educate people and might even get unenlightened companies like this to change their policies.

Oh and by the way, the holiday park could take out a private prosecution against the man who smashed up the caravan, they will have the resources to do this.

I have to go to work now but will return to the thread if i have time later.

Lweji Fri 19-Jul-13 08:17:01

I think one issue here in terms of policy it's that it's not the park's responsibility to ascertain guilt.
In terms of claiming, they could easily claim on all adults and a court would decide who was responsible.
They won't distinguish between a couple or a group of friends, and probably not if two holidaying adults from different parties get on a fight.
And they will probably ask all in the party to leave even if only one was the violent or caused damage.

Not fair, yes.

Should there be a special clause for dv?

betterthanever Fri 19-Jul-13 08:36:09

OP you did a very good thing, most people would have been passive and done nothing. You also did it in a very dignified way. If the park is part of a group maybe you could write a letter to head office as a follow up?
Shocked at the victim blaming on this thread. Those doing the victim blaming, especially those saying she is failing to protect her DC by staying, are probably going to be the ones that when she does leave flame her for not letting her ex have enough contact with the children. They don't see how they have been manipulated into being willing assistants for abusive men. There but for the grace of god go you.

ANormalOne Fri 19-Jul-13 08:53:52

My DM spends a lot of time raising money for Women's Aid, she has done since her close friend was strangled to death by her partner in front of her 5 year DD old and 7 year old DS. Her friend's partner got 10 years in jail, served 8, because it was decided she had provoked him into attacking her, he caught her in the middle of packing their stuff to go to a refuge. My DM hadn't even know that her friend had been suffering domestic abuse since long before her DS was born - she'd never even reported him to the police.

The people victim blaming her, the ones saying she has a choice to leave, show a fundamental lack of understanding about what domestic violence is and what it does to a victim.

Domestic violence doesn't usually start out with a punch to the face out of the blue, it starts out small, with manipulative and controlling behaviors. The victim may not even realize it's happening at first, they are tolerable insults or demands, enough to make them feel uncomfortable but not enough to make them want to leave. Then it increases gradually, they begin to fight and argue, maybe there's one physically violent incident, abusers are incredibly manipulative, they convince the victim they didn't mean it, that they love them, that the victim made them do it blah blah blah. The victim blames themselves, they're afraid and don't want to make their spouse angry, they are worried that if they leave they'll be killed or their loved ones will. The abuser has convinced them they're stupid, ugly, worthless, that no-one loves them, that they're a bad parent, that they're lucky that the abuser looks after them because no-one else would. After a while, they learn to just take it. It's not weakness, it's not choosing to take it, it's fear, hopelessness and being broken. They don't choose to stay because they don't feel as if they HAVE a choice.

There's only one person to blame for domestic violence and that's NOT the victim, it's NEVER the victim.

Blaming the victim for staying in the relationship helps no-one, it just shames victims and makes them even less-likely to try and get help. They need understanding, support, money and safety, to make what is a huge step to break the control an abuser has of them.

The victim blaming here makes me sick.

RonaldMcDonald Fri 19-Jul-13 09:10:42


I'm sorry to read about your mother's friend.

What you highlight here is one side of DV. There are many other strands to it and not all are as clear cut.
Some DV relationships have two violent or abusive partners. Some involve abusive women (which we rarely discuss)

No matter the circumstances of the DV the children in the relationship are treated in a dreadful damaging way and have nowhere to go and no one to speak for them.
A lot of people simply don't understand how a parent could allow their children to be terrorised. Therefore the responses aren't necessarily victim blaming or bashing but are based around fear worry and care for the non adults.

chamonixlover Fri 19-Jul-13 09:28:11

Well at least this is one of the few threads where people have concentrated on the feelings of children, instead of the self-obsession of adults.

On the facts presented, a mum with a broken nose, a partner taken away by Police back to prison (well it was written somewhere), the attitude "women like that ....." really doesn't help. All it takes is one person like the OP who can sometimes turn around the lives of a family with their kindness. Yes of course the family needed to leave the park, but not by being kicked out, by being guided to Women's Aid or whatever, by putting in arrangements gently to get them somewhere safe. Compassion costs nothing.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 09:41:57

The OP did a very brave and humane thing, and I hope it gives that poor woman the strength to change her life.

But I think a lot of people on here are forgetting that a Holiday Park is a business, not a charity or social service. They will no doubt get a few of these incidents every season, and will have a generic policy of removing the whole group as quickly as possible, to protect their property and other guests.

NothingsLeft Fri 19-Jul-13 09:43:32

I am shock and angry at some responses on this thread.

Good god. The park is only following policy? Blanket policies for all types of violence?

This is not a rowdy stag do. We are talking about a woman that has been beaten in front of her children. It's not even a questionable incident. The guy was arrested and bought back to prison.

She's is not wanted to stay and finish her holiday FFS. She is no doubt in pain, in shock, exhausted and terrified. On top of that she has to pack up herself and the children, provide reassure for them, find her way home, where she will probably have no food in. Surely they could have provided her with a few days grace and allowed her to collect her thoughts at the very least. The kids could take their minds off things in the pool or whatever, rather than traipsing home in the heat.

They are people you know.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 10:05:10

I think you are looking at it from the pov of a charitable social service, not a business. It would be impossible to manage a business where you had to disentangle every situation to get to the rights and wrongs of who did what, and then design a just and satisfying outcome for each one.

Also, the solution would have to ensure no more damage and repeats (a risk if the party remain), that other guests won't have more disruption to their holidays, etc etc.

Plus, the insurers, health and safety and other legislation etc will also all have clauses forcing their hands.

NothingsLeft Fri 19-Jul-13 10:13:43

The rights and wrongs are very clear here though. The partner was in the wrong. The woman was assaulted. The children are innocent.

Obviously if he had been able to remain there, then sure, they would all have to leave. But that wasn't the case here.

NothingsLeft Fri 19-Jul-13 10:33:52

A friend of mine took an elderly neighbour shopping on a Saturday. The neighbour had a massive episode of diarrhoea that spread all across the food section. Poor woman was mortified so just carried on to the checkouts.

They obviously could have asked her to leave but instead provided new underwear, a skirt and cleaning essentials- all for free. She was also allowed to continue shopping in the store, despite the risk of a repeat.

They didn't have to and I'm sure had lots of health and safety/insurance policies around that one. Marks and Spencer are a business and not social services or a charity as far as I know. The business argument doesn't really cut it for me.

K8Middleton Fri 19-Jul-13 11:01:03

I will not give my business to any organisation who shows poor corporate social responsibility never mind the outrageous discrimination like this example. So the business argument doesn't really wash for me.

Neither does this idea of there being some sort of joint enterprise have any legal or moral foundation in this case. But to make it really clear for those struggling even with a direct, independent witness...

Stag do trashes holiday home: Difficult to know who actually committed the damage + anyone who stands by could be held to be liable for failing to stop the damage = all responsible so all asked to leave. The risk of a repeat incident is high if they remain.

Man assaults woman and trashes holiday home: Clear that the man is responsible + the woman has not committed any act she could be held criminally liable for = man alone is responsible and should be asked to leave. Risk of a repeat incident once he is removed is negligible because he will not be there to do it.

onefewernow Fri 19-Jul-13 11:08:35

Agree the victim should nor be asked to leave, although he should.

The holiday park I stayed in last summer was a total pigsty anyway, and five complaints over the week were unable to sort it. We got a part refund though a letter on return.

ageofgrandillusion Fri 19-Jul-13 11:11:19

The point is, he could well have come back and caused more aggro. Why should the park - and its remaining residents - have to have that kind of shit going in in the doorstep? There are many nuances to dv, different types, situations etc as we all know. If i was the owner of the park, and i saw this situation, and also saw he had previously done time in jail, half of me would be thinking that this was simply one of those rough families that cause problems. Sorry if that sounds harsh. The question needs to be asked, why is she still with somebody who has done time? What is she doing taking her children on holiday with this animal? Why are the children having to watch this shit?

K8Middleton Fri 19-Jul-13 11:19:49

Are you suggesting he might have made a prison break age? Have you read the thread? Lots of answers to your questions.

Also, over a summer, there could be any number of people who holiday at holiday parks who have fled abusive relationships and might have the abuser turn up. Should parks be putting a question about that on the booking form?

If the park is hosting families and young children it should be restricting site entry and have proper security procedures in place so unauthorised people cannot access the site. To protect everyone from arsonists, vandals, pedophiles, rapists, thieves and all other types of criminal.

ageofgrandillusion Fri 19-Jul-13 11:37:33

My understanding k8 was that there was an inference he might be on parole. And yes i have read the thread. Your second sentence is complete pie in the sky stuff, with respect.

K8Middleton Fri 19-Jul-13 11:47:10

Err, what? That doesn't even make any sense confused

K8Middleton Fri 19-Jul-13 11:50:16

Add message | Report | Message poster ClementineKelandra Wed 17-Jul-13 19:21:36
Even if that was the case she should not have been made to leave. Plus, he was arrested and returned to jail as he was on probation according to site manager.

[my bolding]

Woodenpeg Fri 19-Jul-13 11:56:50

Fucking hell, reading some of the replies on this thread are making me feel sick...

Fucking hell.

gamerchick Fri 19-Jul-13 12:37:39

Aside from anything else.. I'm gobsmacked at the sheer amount of people who don't read the small print when they sign the form when using a caravan/ hotel or anything else that provides a service that requires a signature.

Have a read next time.. it might surprise you to see that policy down in black and white.

It's like there are 2 threads running.. one filled with emotion and one dealing with the facts. It's fascinating really.

Alright OP taking it down to the bare bones.. what happened when you went up to the manager and offered to pay for the damage to the van and offered to have the family bunk in yours so they could continue their holiday?

vintagecakeisstillnice Fri 19-Jul-13 12:42:34

Fuck Me

The amount of victim blaming on this thread is terrifying.
And some of the stories heartbreaking

Good on you ClementineKelandra

I know that there is a strong possibility that I would be in an abusive relationship, if one of his friends hadn't said to me, you do know its not you, its him.
He's an arse.
If it wasn't you it would be someone else.

I had just spend hours trying to explain why ex-boyfriend had been holding a kitchen knife to my neck when friend had walked in.

Trying to say how much of it was my fault, trying to explain how our relationship was different and special and he just didn't understand.
It was a light bulb moment to me for some reason.

I wasn't what seems to be the idea of a typical DV victim type, the down trodden, ill educated, no choice, no support, with children that so many like to think. I think to comfort themselves, to think well I'm not A/B/C so it will never happen to me. . to my family. .

I am from a very happy home, my parents were happily married for 40+ years ended only by my dear Fathers death. I would love to end up like my Mother, seriously. Degree educated, a little money in the bank, good job, no children.

Domestic Abuse (and I seriously think it should be re-named to just plain old abuse) can and does happen to all levels of education/class/financial level/culture/colour/sex.

And maybe you could have been that woman's 'light bulb moment' or another woman/man in the caravan park who suddenly realised that the life they are (I won't say living) surviving in not the norm is not right, having seen the police etc happen.

MorrisZapp Fri 19-Jul-13 12:50:40

I agree that there are effectively two threads here. One is about whether victims of DV have choice, that's one we can debate forever isn't it.

The other one is about what we should expect from businesses in terms of having a dedicated policy on DV. I have to say that unless this park was part of a national chain I think it's just unrealistic to think that they should have procedures in place to deal with DV. Personally, I think that most caravan parks, hotels etc would see the tenants as one party.

Otherwise, they're in the position of judge and jury. It just doesn't seem a reasonable expectation to me, sorry.

DespicableWee Fri 19-Jul-13 13:04:48

I don't see why the park couldn't have a policy of taking statements from all parties involved in an altercation. That would presumably cover them from an insurance viewpoint as they are investigating who actually caused the damage to be able to bill them, and avoid ejecting innocent parties who may then take action against them. Seems very sensible to me.

It would have the added advantage that if it were company policy, it would be nice and easy to explain to both parties in this example that statements need to be made and they have to be done individually, so could they perhaps give the man a lift to their base to take his there and leave another security guard in the caravan with the mother and the kids to avoid lugging them around site and get her statement. Once the father is gone, the mother can be asked if she actually is ok, without having her attacker standing right beside her. It gives the victim the chance to ask for help without the immediate fear of repercussions and means the attacker is already removed from the caravan to the security building which would make keeping him there until the police arrive that much simpler.

JessicaBeatriceFletcher Fri 19-Jul-13 13:07:35

Despicable - I really don't see ANY business doing that, caravan park or otherwise.

tittytittyhanghang Fri 19-Jul-13 13:17:56

I don't see why the park couldn't have a policy of taking statements from all parties involved in an altercation.

And what happens if they both deny any altercation, it was an accident. Or he says he is innocent and she says he is guilty? Or they kick the man out, then he claims against them later on for loss of holiday when the partner refuses to press charges? Or he says that it was in self defence?

Are they just to automatically presume man=guilty?

And who is going to pay for this 'investigation'?

tittytittyhanghang Fri 19-Jul-13 13:21:59

Also to answer minkenbarnards question, children do run away. Certainly i did. several times. At one point i remember going to a police station and begging for them to put me in care. I was taken home and told not to waste police time. My parents were legally responsible for me and that was that.

Men have no legal control over their partners so the two is not comparable.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 13:31:51

Expecting caravan park small businesses to have the security of military camp, be an auxiliary womens' refuge, an extension of social services, operate the investigative powers of a police force, and have Solomonic wisdom to untangle domestic wrangles - and no doubt still operate at an affordable price and keep the 99% of other guests contented - is extremely unrealistic.

DV is rough on the victims, but it's not the role of small holiday companies to solve it.

DespicableWee Fri 19-Jul-13 13:42:40

If he says he is innocent and she says he is guilty, when she has a broken nose, there are doors broken off the hinges, he presumably has some physical indicator of having done that like scuffed knuckles & it has been independently reported to the police by a neighbour as it having been him attacking her? I'd say that was pretty clear cut tbh. I don't think his protestations of innocence would have no bearing on how anything proceeds.

As to taking statements being unrealistic, someone upthread mentioned insurance as a possible reason for parties being asked to leave the site. Surely the insurance isn't going to pay out for repairs and replacements caused by criminal damage if the park doesn't either involve the police themselves or at least try and ascertain exactly who caused the damage? So statement taking needn't be something which is the sole preserve of potential DV cases, it should be standard practice if there has been an altercation and/or damage to park property. If taking statements is standard, it is really no extra effort to also make it policy that the person deemed more likely to be the main aggressor be taken to the security base for their statement and the party/parties more likely to have been the victims have their statements taken in their caravans. That would work just as well for a random attack by a stranger as for DV. If some randomer broke my nose, I would far rather give a brief statement in the comfort of my caravan than have the experience compounded by having to go to another area and sit in an office to relay my version of events.

MorrisZapp Fri 19-Jul-13 13:47:57

I agree with lazeyjaney on this.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 19-Jul-13 13:55:42

The caravan was trashed. The party renting it would automatically be removed from the park. And rightly so. Has it even occurred to you that the property belongs to someone? They don't all belong to sites. It would need to be repaired. Maybe it was let for the next week. Why should other people have their holidays ruined by this? And because the woman is a victim of DV it does NOT trump the rights of everybody else.

flippinada Fri 19-Jul-13 14:54:53

Yes Clementina I hope you feel thoroughly chastened after reading all these posts.

What on earth did you think were doing, trying to help? How irresponsible!

myfriendflicka Fri 19-Jul-13 15:25:30

It would be helpful to know which holiday park company this is, so that those of us who wish to avoid companies with this kind of "policy" can do so.

I have messaged Mumsnet HQ about this, I am so disgusted by some of the responses and their victim-blaming.

K8Middleton Fri 19-Jul-13 15:52:30

I don't actually expect the park to remove the perpetrator themselves or conduct any investigation into who was at fault. I don't even expect the park to provide telephone numbers for women's aid or drive victims to the local refuge. I don't expect the park to pay for the damage.

I do expect the park to call the police. I do expect them to ban the perpetrator. I do expect them to have procedures in place for dealing with and preventing unauthorised people on the site. I do expect them to deduct the cost of the damage from the deposit or pursue the matter trough the courts. I do expect the park management to comply with any police advice or investigation. I do expect them to take into account the findings of the police investigation when making decisions about who is banned.

I do not expect or condone the park management adding insult to injury by punishing the victim.

Totally agree with what K8 has said. The woman is a victim of violence and is being treated by the park as somehow being responsible for the damage because she has a violent ex-partner.

Some of the replies on this thread are awful sad

lissieloo Fri 19-Jul-13 16:18:06

Oh fgs, some of these comments are fucking horrible. I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

OP, well done, I admire you for speaking up for this poor woman, the park manager was in the wrong, and it just shows how little we actually do to help victims of abuse leave. I hope she and her children are safe now.

Lweji Fri 19-Jul-13 16:20:43

Good god. The park is only following policy? Blanket policies for all types of violence?

Sadly, I think that's what zero tolerance means for them.

A friend of mine had something similar happen where she works. Without the trashing of the place.
She would have liked to thump the man herself. Sadly she couldn't, obviously.
She, being a woman, offered lots of support to the victim.

One thing is the business policy, which can be very cold and yes, blanket, another is the sensitivity of the managers involved.
In this case, the manager does seem pretty insensitive.

Lweji Fri 19-Jul-13 16:25:02

Genuine question:
You let a house/flat to a couple, the man thrashes the place and assaults his wife.
The police is called, and he's arrested, but she doesn't make a complaint, doesn't ask you to put him off the contract, and so on.

What do you do? Do you allow her to stay? Do you evict all of them?

arthriticfingers Fri 19-Jul-13 16:35:35

This thread is so sad.
All anyone is asking is for people not to turn the other way when they see what is obviously wrong;
The 'other side' that is mentioned, funnily enough, is the one that is presumed exists despite the evidence of eyes and ears and which justifies doing nothing.
What kind of world do those of you who advocate a 'blanket policy' of 'not getting involved' because of selfish interests want to live in?
Because the one we have is one where violent partners kill on a weekly basis.

lissieloo Fri 19-Jul-13 16:35:55

I genuinely don't know. since he would no longer be in the house, having been arrested and CPS would have a decent enough case, I would let them stay.

Either way, you couldn't just kick her out, she would at least have time to find alternative accomodation

PeppermintPasty Fri 19-Jul-13 16:39:55

Lweji, my client did just that. I'm a solicitor, she's a client of mine with a few properties in the small town where I practice.

The thing is, the CPS decided to prosecute the man even though the wife withdrew her statement (maybe a slight difference to your example?).

My client knew she was probably on a hiding to nothing, but she did all she could to protect the woman and her children. I was and am full of admiration for her (she's a close friend as well). Very well off, large family of her own, doesn't need the hassle etc etc, but she stuck her neck out.

So it can be done. The police here were excellent too and made it clear to him that he wasn't to return to the address. My client re housed her and the children elsewhere while the place was repaired.

Restores your faith, (even allowing for the fact that she is wealthy and can afford to do this).

The wider point is though, that of course, not many landlords would react like this.

PeppermintPasty Fri 19-Jul-13 16:44:00

And btw Clementine, I think you did a good thing.

lissieloo Fri 19-Jul-13 16:48:31

Peppermint, that's lovely, as you said, restores your faith!

The wider point is though, that of course, not many landlords would react like this.

And that's the bigger problem. We can all say "don't get involved, protect yourself" but ultimately, if we don't speak out, or stick out our necks then how are we better than the abusers?

PeppermintPasty Fri 19-Jul-13 16:56:58

I agree, and my friend showed that it can be done, by a "faceless" landlord, if you like. I was reading some of the things on this thread and thinking that if I ran a caravan park I would make damn sure I supported the victim rather than lumping them all in together. And I would work my arse off to ensure there was a proper policy in place to protect as well. I appreciate that people will say that it will be looked at as a commercial venture, and therefore why should they stick their heads above the parapet. But I say-why not?! A strong manager would have found a compassionate solution, and it was right that they were challenged.

arthriticfingers Fri 19-Jul-13 17:23:09

YY to raising awareness and sticking our necks out and standing up to be counted. Wish there were more of that kind of hero.

lissieloo Fri 19-Jul-13 17:34:34

Could MNHQ do something similar to WBY for victims of DV? Help quash those myths, esp in light of charles saatchi's attack on nigella lawson.

Lazyjaney Fri 19-Jul-13 17:55:04

It would be helpful to know which holiday park company this is, so that those of us who wish to avoid companies with this kind of "policy" can do so

You will probably find that it's very difficult to find one that wouldn't have this kind of policy, at that price bracket anyway. The only sort of places that may Even begin to have the sort of resources to do what some are demanding here are places like Center Parcs, but they are far more expensive (be interesting to know what their policy is)

K8Middleton Fri 19-Jul-13 18:07:53

Hmm. I'm not sure secure perimeter fencing, an entry system of some kind and the cost of a 999 call are prohibitively expensive. The first two are just what any holiday park catering for families should be doing and the latter is what anybody should do.

brokenk Fri 19-Jul-13 18:53:50

I supouse every caravan park got insurance policy covering that kind of damage

OP you had done wonderfull thing
To some of people is difficult not to blame victim
which in my opinion is wrong

perhaps they have to grow up to decision to say stop to the abusse

minkembernard Fri 19-Jul-13 19:55:14

to those who are victim blaming:
you don't know that she is not pressing charges

you don't know she is not leaving him

you don't know that this was not the first time he hit her and the line that means it is over
you don't know that she has not been saving up money and arranging a play to stay and planning her escape

but don't let the fact that you know nothing about her other than one single solitary fact they she was the victim of a vicious assault stop you judging her because of course you know besthmm

and yes SS do take children in danger of domestic abuse into care. not to punish or judge the mother,
to protect the children. there is a difference.

edam Fri 19-Jul-13 22:48:46

Good grief, all this justification of a company harassing and punishing a victim of violence. Do you think someone who is mugged in a shopping centre should be thrown out by security?

It's not hard to work out the right thing to do. Bad person did something bad and police have carted him off. You support the victims and offer help and reassurance.

ReallyTired Fri 19-Jul-13 22:50:46

A caravan site has a responsiblity to its other customers and employees. If a caravan is trashed then it has to be repaired quickly so that it is not out of action. This is not victim blaming, but economic reality.

I fact that the family had to leave was the fault of the perperator rather than the caravan site manager. The site manager did not smash up the caravan or break anyone's nose. He has has to run a business which keeps people in work.

Imagine you get a phone call that your longed for holiday has been cancelled at the last minute because the site has decided to put this family in your caravan. Would you feel pleased?

I suspect that being kicked out of a caravan park is the least of a DV victim's worries.

giveitago Fri 19-Jul-13 22:54:35

"I guess the manager felt that as long as she had stayed with the husband and gone on holiday with him, she was enabling his violent behaviour, and as such guilty of letting the children grow up in a violent environment, so partly to blame?"

Wow- absolutely f'cking wow! Would someone really think this?

edam Fri 19-Jul-13 22:57:03

Reallytired, you are making an assumption there. How do you know every caravan is let, so there's no room for this family? You don't.

The caravan park does indeed have a responsibility to its customers, that includes behaving decently if any customer is a victim of crime. Even more so if the victims include children.

The aggressor in this case was taken away by the police, so is no longer any threat to anyone at the park.

ReallyTired Fri 19-Jul-13 23:07:41

"Reallytired, you are making an assumption there. How do you know every caravan is let, so there's no room for this family? You don't. "

It is july and some schools are already on holiday. Its the heaviest period of the year. Even if they have a caravan vacant then surely they would rather have it available to let to a PAYING family who are less likely to wreck it.

The caravan park does indeed have a responsibility to its customers, that includes behaving decently if any customer is a victim of crime. Even more so if the victims include children. "

Why should they.

The caravan site isn't a charity or women's refuge. We don't know the conversation the site manager had with the family. Surely its up to the police to put her in touch with the local women's refuge.

edam Would you be willing to put a DV victim up in your house? How far should charity go. What have you done to help victims of DV in the last year?

Our church tried to collect presents to wrap up so that children in the women's refuge could have a visit from Father Christmas. Inspite of requesting that only brand new toys were given, many people just donated their broken tat that was only fit for the dustbin.

It is more of a challenge to do something yourself to help women who suffer DV than to say that someone else should be ridicolously generous.

edam Fri 19-Jul-13 23:25:35

There's nothing 'ridiculously generous' about not picking on victims.

And you are making assumptions again. Actually I have done things for victims of domestic violence this year - some personal, some related to campaigns.

You are also exaggerating. No-one is asking the manager of the caravan park to put the mother and children up in his spare bedroom. Merely expecting a company to behave decently, i.e. don't throw people out for being the victims of crime.

ReallyTired Fri 19-Jul-13 23:32:12

"And you are making assumptions again. Actually I have done things for victims of domestic violence this year - some personal, some related to campaigns. "

I expect that your volunary work is financially a drop in the ocean compared to what you are expecting the caravan site to do.

Does your "work" actually amount to £500 worth of work? (Ie. the cost that many caravans are hired out for at this time of year in the UK)

Its easy to say that other people or busineses should be generous with their time and money.

Would you be prepared to foot the bill for this lady to have another caravan in july? It is far easier to critise other people for not being so generous.

edam Fri 19-Jul-13 23:38:09

Really, you are scraping the barrel now. Why are you making it so personal?

Fact is, no-one is asking this company to be hugely generous, just to act decently. Picking on victims, especially child victims, is wrong. That's really basic.

minkembernard Sat 20-Jul-13 00:22:01

I am not even asking the business owner to do anything. just asking some people on this thread to do their bit for the victims of DV by thinking before they judge hmm

I am most impressed at the OP.
unsurprised at the site manager
and utterly appalled at some of the comments on this thread.
really disappointed. if this is how women talk about other women what hope have we got of changing attitudes...and that is the bedrock of abuse-.attitude, opinion, mistaken beliefs and downright offensive women hating garbage.

edam Sat 20-Jul-13 10:32:16

Well said, minke (no idea whether minke is the right abbreviation but your name made me think of minke whales. Which was a nice thought).

Bit if an update. I'd left my mobile number with the woman and she actually phoned me this afternoon to say Thankyou and she told me a bit about the circumstances leading upto the attack.

In a nut shell: this man had been to prison for a previous assault on her. He was released a few months ago. In her home town she has a lot of family support including two brothers.

She'd gone away on her own with her dc to get away from everything for a few weeks.

He'd managed, through Facebook they think, to find out where she was going on. He turned up at the site, the first time she saw him was when she was at the play area with the kids. She thinks he must have been hanging about there knowing with 4 dc she'd definately be there at some point in the day.

He'd followed her back to the caravan and hung around trying to win her round. Things slowly turned into an argument and the rest is history.

So he wasn't on the booking! He wasn't even a guest on the park. The manager never told me that bit!!

lissieloo Sat 20-Jul-13 20:50:10

shock that poor woman! That makes the managers' decision even worse.

minkembernard Sat 20-Jul-13 20:55:01

Thanks for the update OP. wonder if that changes any of the opinions above hmm

and I assume he was charged again.

Hope she will be ok and won't encounter too many.people in her life with knee jerk opinions like some of the posters on this thread. Glad you and she have found each other as it were.

now just to wait for the flood of posters revising their victim blaming...or maybe they can still somehow make this her fault.

LEMisdisappointed Sat 20-Jul-13 21:11:13

That is really sad OP - it is quite scary really, that these places have no way of monitoring who just waltzes onto the site. I said upthread that this woman should have been offered a second holiday, i now stand by that even further. This could have just as easily been a random attack and this woman was penalised for it. I hope she is continuing to get support. OP you sound lovely x

soovait Sat 20-Jul-13 21:12:54

What minkembernard said.

ClementineKelandra you've shown such compassion, I'm sure that woman really appreciated it.

lissieloo Sat 20-Jul-13 21:34:22

I wonder if he would have asked a man who had been attacked to leave.

Do you know what was really sad, when we were talking about her nose been broken she just casually said that she usually manages to protect her face because she usually sees the punch coming sad she said it like it was the most normal thing in the world. The horror that women has gone through.

She's staying with family now. She seems to have quite a good family around her do no wonder the bastard when after her when she was on her own.

I've been really sadden over this these past few days. Not just by what happened but by some of the attitudes that have been displayed.

(Also thanks to those who said lovely things about me blush I just did what anyone with a heart would have done)

Do you know what else has angered me. I was the only one who phoned for help for her apparently but the manager told her that the next morning 5 people called into his office to complain about her!!!

How do you even word a complaint like that "I'd like to complain about the lady in caravan xyz because her screaming for her life as she had the crap beaten out of her disturbed my sleep"

soovait Sat 20-Jul-13 21:46:42

That people would complain about her but not ring for help has made me feel really sick, Clem How dare they?! Words fail me.

Like I said, the victim blaming on this thread has absolutely broken my heart. Thank God for people like you.

edam Sat 20-Jul-13 21:57:55

Oh good grief! That makes it even worse - she's been tracked down, stalked and attacked by a criminal, and yet the park manager was trying to throw her out when she'd done nothing wrong... and dozens of posters on this thread have been so busy making assumptions that fit their victim-blaming world view when the poor woman HAD left him.

Hope some of them come back to this thread and realise how wrong they were.

Thank heavens for a decent person like you, Clementine. Shame there seem to have been so few around.

edam Sat 20-Jul-13 22:02:47

FWIW, I was once at a camp site where a woman was attacked. Unlike this sorry story, there were many decent people around. When we heard screaming in the middle of the night, everyone came out of their tents to try to help. Man had dragged woman off, so all the men ran across the field chasing them. Managed to get to her and the guy who had hold of her ran off. People comforted her and patched her up.

She didn't want the police called and I'm afraid no-one insisted. These days I'd be more assertive about it, back then I knew less about DV and didn't want to push it.

But the point is, everyone on that camp site had the normal, human, decent response of trying to help and protect the victim.

Damnautocorrect Sat 20-Jul-13 22:04:50

So basically an intruder attacked her in the caravan park and that was the way the owner behaved. What an absolute disgrace of a man

arsenaltilidie Sat 20-Jul-13 22:04:51

very quickly the security guards from the site turned up. The woman was sobbing , said she was ok and the security guards quickly left

There is no doubt he comes across this sort of thing every year, from his perspective he sent security but she said she was okay. Meaning she was okay with his presence as a result she stopped the security from removing the man.

If I was the manager I would have dealt with it a little differently but I sort of understand where he is coming from.

K8Middleton Sat 20-Jul-13 22:05:52

I want to know where this park is so I never go there. What they have done is sickening.

flippinada Sat 20-Jul-13 22:26:37

I'd also like to know where it is - it deserves to be named and shamed, also I can understand why you may not want to Clementine. Thank you for your update. I really feel for that woman

As for anyone apologising for their obnoxious victim blaming posts - I doubt it. But you never know. Maybe this will make people think twice before leaping to judgement.

Msbluebozooka Sat 20-Jul-13 22:48:42

Quint are you for real!!!! It takes 2 mins to fix a door and a fucking life time to fix a victim if ever . She needn't time on her own with the kids and maybe asked to leave a day before her holiday ended. God help us if life is full of unhelpful Quints!!!

Yeah life's a bitch but sometimes people like Clem step in to give you a helping hand good on you Clem

Msbluebozooka Sat 20-Jul-13 22:53:53

Soz had to get that off my chest after reading what Quint posted earlier was reading thread way down the line and am really angry

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 20-Jul-13 23:36:42

I am disgusted but not surprised by some of the posts on this thread.

Even without the update, people should be supportive of that woman without making judgements.

Clementine - you showed the way a decent person would act in this situation. Thank god it was you nearby, and not some of these other posters. hmm

There is obviously a serious need for many posters to educate themselves more about DV.

minkembernard Sun 21-Jul-13 21:39:20

<pops in to look round to see if those who had so many opinions earlier have come back. leaves in disgust. >

gamerchick Mon 22-Jul-13 08:02:14

* minkembernard Sun 21-Jul-13 21:39:20

<pops in to look round to see if those who had so many opinions earlier have come back. leaves in disgust. >*

Whats with the no quote function.. are we in the frigging dark ages?

Well I'd left the thread.. once you start to feel like you're babysitting and not getting paid for it, you're on a hiding to nothing. smile

gamerchick Mon 22-Jul-13 08:15:57

*Bit if an update. I'd left my mobile number with the woman and she actually phoned me this afternoon to say Thankyou and she told me a bit about the circumstances leading upto the attack.

In a nut shell: this man had been to prison for a previous assault on her. He was released a few months ago. In her home town she has a lot of family support including two brothers.

She'd gone away on her own with her dc to get away from everything for a few weeks.

He'd managed, through Facebook they think, to find out where she was going on. He turned up at the site, the first time she saw him was when she was at the play area with the kids. She thinks he must have been hanging about there knowing with 4 dc she'd definately be there at some point in the day.

He'd followed her back to the caravan and hung around trying to win her round. Things slowly turned into an argument and the rest is history.

So he wasn't on the booking! He wasn't even a guest on the park. The manager never told me that bit!!*

You still didn't answer my question about offering to share your van and pay for the damages so they could continue their holiday? Which has been your point all along hasn't it?

Well that sorry have to add the if it's true thing in here changes things slightly doesn't it?! See the difference in that post compared to your first. hmm However my mindset hasn't changed when it comes to the managers decision. I haven't been commenting on the woman and her issues all along.

And give over with the victim blaming bollocks.. there was one, maybe two posts near the beginning of the thread.. people can have a different opinion without namecalling and running to mummy to tell. wink

OP.. it's very admirable that you want to help, you are very nice. It's nice that she has a willing listening ear and a friend to listen to her. I do hope she manages to get rid of the idiot soon.

flippinada Mon 22-Jul-13 09:24:25

How is that the point?

lissieloo Mon 22-Jul-13 09:51:22


K8Middleton Mon 22-Jul-13 09:54:53

the woman and her issues

She did not punch herself in the face. It is the perpetrator who has issues.

On a not unrelated note, I do wish the hard of thinking wouldn't post. Invariably it is the thick as mince posts that get picked up by the media and then we all look like ignorant bigots sad

Silverfoxballs Mon 22-Jul-13 10:15:13

Well done Clem

Reading through this thread reminds me of why I didn't tell anyone that my ex used to beat me and why I lied when I got a black eye when he kicked me in the head. It has taken me almost 18 years for me to tell anyone about what happened to me.

The poor woman would probably have gone home anyway but being told you have to leave just makes you think that somehow it is your fault.
Reading through some of the posts on her is depressing.

Silverfoxballs Mon 22-Jul-13 10:15:43

Here not her

OddSockMonster Mon 22-Jul-13 10:48:01

Thanks for updating Clementine.

Good to know she has family round her, hope she find some peace away from him for good some day soon.

chamonixlover Mon 22-Jul-13 13:52:39

Same here Silverfoxballs. Now I have told the truth... here are a few comments

"X had his reasons for beating you up" - from father-in-law

"is this not just a communication problem?" - from someone who had heard through the grapevine about passer-by intervening on public beating when I was stuck scrunched up protecting one of the children from a similar fate. Yeh my child and me, we did it to ourselves didn't we, it was just lack of communication which caused it!!!

I despair.

lissieloo Mon 22-Jul-13 13:58:59

shock sad

God forbid the poor men should take responsibility! I mean, come on, it's clearly the woman's fault for not behaving exactly as required.

chamonixlover Mon 22-Jul-13 14:15:26

oh another one which made me laugh, despite 3 statements of admission of guilt and pending conviction with independent witness statement

"I only have your word for it that you weren't responsible" - from friend of perpetrator.

Maybe we should start a thread containing all the stupid victim bashing quotes.

lissieloo Mon 22-Jul-13 20:19:05
betterthanever Mon 22-Jul-13 22:35:03

Thanks for the link Lissie.

lissieloo Mon 22-Jul-13 22:44:33

No problem, and thank you for posting in support thanks

Silverfoxballs Tue 23-Jul-13 10:28:43

chamonix rubbish isn't it, even people that are supposed to love you like my Mum saying, you must have annoyed him!

There was a thread about abusers being charming and stereotypes being a problem. My ex does not look like a thug and appears totally respectable with his high flying job. He is still a thug and a violent bully just one in a suit.

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