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Can I forgive this much deceit?

(708 Posts)
alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 06:45:07

I am trying to figure out whether I can stay,have couples counselling, and try and work things out. Or....whether it is just too much betrayal and deceit. My mind swings between the 2 on a twice daily basis.

Background: DP has cheated on me with 2 women. He met with each one 4/5 times during my recent pregnancies. He has also met up for drinks with a few more. He met then through married affair websites.

I found out about the websites 10 weeks ago, and about the women 3 weeks ago. He followed the usual script of denial, deleting, minimising etc. Then I was contacted by a woman and he had to come clean.

He has started psychotherapy to deal with his issues. He says it was about the buzz of getting girls to be impressed by him.

How do I work out what to do for the best? Obviously he is desperate to work things out. I am prepared to listen at the minute. We have 3 DC. 2 are very small. Help me to make sense of this please!

I rarely say it but LTB.

Seriously he was shagging other women whist you were pregnant. Total deal breaker IMO. At a time when you were probably feeling extremely vulnerable he was off, admittedly, shagging someone for a boost to his ego!!

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 06:53:24

Actually - having checked the timeline he has written for me - he slept with the first woman twice after I gave birth to my middle child. When they were 4 months old and 6 months old.

Lizzabadger Tue 25-Jun-13 06:54:37

He is a total shit. LTB. Sorry.

HenWithAttitude Tue 25-Jun-13 06:55:08

It's scary leaving, especially if you have children. But don't stay with him as a compromise or because you're scared to step out on your own.

I suspect many men will never change and why would they when they can get away with it? The behaviour you describe is shocking. You'd never start a relationship with a man and tolerate that. So what are your reasons for staying? For the children .....so they grow up with the example of a loving relationship that he is showing them???? Don't fool yourself that they won't know. Stress and tension leaches out of you and they will.

Can you get over it? Probably not. There is a small minuscule chance you might and you're clutching onto that straw rather than take the step on your own.

Will he change? Probably not. There is a small minuscule chance he might and you're clutching onto that straw.

Remember the 3 pigs building their houses? The straw house is blown over.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 06:56:56

I agree. However, he is taking going to therapy. He doesn't like who he is. He does want to change. Is that enough?

GirlWiththeLionHeart Tue 25-Jun-13 07:01:23

The issues are, can you get over it, and very importantly can you live worrying he will do it again forver because that's what your life will be like. I couldn't.

TheFallenNinja Tue 25-Jun-13 07:02:29

I seriously doubt it. It's not vindictive but counselling doesn't erase the pain and doesn't restore trust.

There also seems to be a standard set of platitudes used when cheaters get busted. 30 minutes once a week raking over stuff, for me, would accomplish nothing.

So really, it boils down to your capacity to forgive and forget.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 07:03:51

No idea. Do you think it's enough?

He didn't want to change until he got caught. He was happy enough to sink ball deep into any woman he could until he got caught.

Did he come home to you all sweetness and light, happy and loving? After having dipped his dick elsewhere? You know this is a man who is happy to lie to your face. How do you build trust when you know what they are capable of?

how much is he 'sorry' and how much is he sorry he got caught?

He betrayed you, he lied to your face, he admitted only what you could prove? How much more is it possible there is that he is holding back because you can't prove it?

I think it would take a lot of work. You'd certainly need to see a lot more from him that apologies and talking about going to therapy.

When's his first appointment at this therapy?

What do you get out of this relationship now?. That question needs serious thought.

Some men are very adept at telling the woman what they so want to hear.

In answer to your last question, no its not enough. its far too little and far too late. He only came clean as well when you were contacted by another woman; he kept minimising everything till then.

(A short burst of therapy is not enough either. He may be several years work for even the most forgiving of therapists).

Stepping out on your own is very hard but he is really not worth it now.
He has always had a choice and he made a conscious choice to act like he did. No-one forced him to message other women or sleep with them.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 07:12:18

Yes, that's true. And his choice wasn't even to shag about randomly, it was to actually join a website and find people to have affairs with! He went out there to look!

That's, well, if there's a scale of shittyness, it's fairly close to the top.

And if he admits to fucking 2, it'll likely be 6 and if he admits to having a drink with 4, it'll likely be 12.

Oh, but I withdraw my last question, I see he has actually started this therapy. I missed that bit.

It's just the level of deceit and selfishness that is hard to get over, I imagine. My wife has just had a baby. I am going to trawl the web looking for women to shag. You've just had his child. Instead of being a team, instead of gazing at this little person he helped to create, he's out there actively seeking women to betray you with.

and, btw - you really need to get yourself tested for STDs.

cozietoesie Tue 25-Jun-13 07:12:21

For me - no, it wouldn't be enough.

In any case, you say in one post that he's talking about going to therapy and in another post that he's started psychotherapy to deal with his 'issues'. Which is it and is that really true? I'd be thinking that that was also a convenient tale to keep you happier for a while.

I couldn't live with this man for another umpty years or so. Hard though it might be to leave, could you genuinely live with this?

iloveweetos Tue 25-Jun-13 07:18:56

You need to leave. It's hard to get over when a guy actively looks got another woman. My exP looked and cheated before and after I had DD, for this so called buzz. Everytime he looked at his phone, sat on the laptop, went out alone, my mind made went through every possible thing he could be doing. And it makes u become very angry and unstable in a way.
I ended up leaving when I had my daughter.
It's hard being on your own but it's not forever and better than being treated like shit x

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 07:18:59

You would be an utter fool if you did, sorry

The man is a sexually incontinent prick. This is not going to change after a bit of navel gazing by him.

You are spending family money for him to boo hoo about how hard it is to keep it in his pants ?

What an utter waste of time and money

iloveweetos Tue 25-Jun-13 07:20:03

I agree about getting tested for STDs

WeAreEternal Tue 25-Jun-13 07:30:39

Personally I could forgive the sex, but the fact that he joined a married persons sex site and then searched for and took many women out on dates is too much for me.
It's one thing to have a drunken ONS, or hook up with someone at work, but to actively go out there looking too have an affair is unforgivable IMO.

He only wants to change because he has been caught out, and I doubt very much he actually wants to change and is in fact just trying to tell you what you want to hear.

Honestly, I don't think there is much choice, you need to LTB, otherwise you are showing him that that kind of behaviour is forgivable and there is nothing to stop him doing it again.

If he genuinely wants to get help and work on things then he can do that, away from you, and then if he does make improvements then maybe you could try again in the future.
But as far as I am aware there is no therapy that can cure being a bastard.

DHtotalnob Tue 25-Jun-13 07:32:46

Does he have RL friends?

AThingInYourLife Tue 25-Jun-13 07:38:25

"But as far as I am aware there is no therapy that can cure being a bastard."

This.

He hates who he is? hmm

Well, he is a loathsome, worthless shit, so if he has any honest feelings at all he should hate himself.

Not really your problem though.

He deliberately and repeatedly put your health and your babies' health at risk.

He doesn't really give a fuck about any of you.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 07:40:19

He started therapy 5 weeks ago. I know he is going. When I talked about counselling, I meant couples counselling. We would do both.

You arw right - it is the selfishness and deceit that are killing me.

He says that he used a married affair site because " I justified it to myself that it was as safe a way as possible of getting the kick that I needed and not hurting my family and you as it was with like minded people that were also looking for a bit of a buzz."

missalien Tue 25-Jun-13 07:40:27

I don't think you are asking yourself the right questions ... It's more can i keep putting up with this , because I don't think he will stop just because he has been caught ,especially as if you stay now after you know , he will take that as a green light and keep doing it , he obviously likes it and you have effectively said you are prepared to put up with it has he has told you what he is like !

So sorry what a shit bag .

MissStrawberry Tue 25-Jun-13 07:41:56

LTB

The very fact he wants strangers to be impressed by him is so pathetic to be embarrassing and I am sure you do not want to be embarrassed by your children's father.

You deserve more.

He could have admitted everything immediately but he didn't so he showed you no respect. I am sure you want respect from the father of your children.

You sound really really lovely and I am sure you would do just fine without this idiot in your bed.

If he really wants to change he can do that while living in his own crummy bedsit while you stay looking after your children. He does not need to do it while still enjoying all the comforts of home. If he is genuine he will agree to this and it will come good. If he isn't then he will soon be living the single life and you will already have started getting used to being the only adult in this relationship and will be doing just fine.

Lweji Tue 25-Jun-13 07:43:07

You could forgive.

Should you, though?

After his lip service after being caught (hating himself, sure) he's very likely to revert to type.

If you want to have any chance, I think you need to leave him. He should be earning your trust, not you going to couples therapy.

Personally, I could forgive a drunk one night stand, if there were no lies.
Not this level of deceit.

Will you be able to really ever trust him again?

MissStrawberry Tue 25-Jun-13 07:43:45

"and not hurting my family and you as it was with like minded people that were also looking for a bit of a buzz."

This is such bollocks. There is NO justification for cheating on your partner.

AThingInYourLife Tue 25-Jun-13 07:48:00

"it was as safe a way as possible of getting the kick that I needed"

hmm

How can you listen to him say that and have any feelings other than total repugnance?

The kick that he needed? hmm

This is who is he is - a man who doesn't get the "kick" that he "needs" from the birth of his child, one of the most intense experiences in life.

No, this is a man who "needs" to leave his wife at home with their baby while he spends family money on his latest conquest and risks bringing STIs home to everyone.

He is just a really crap person.

The lies he told deceived you about that. But now you know.

PamDooveOrangeJoof Tue 25-Jun-13 07:57:18

What everyone else said... So sorry this has happened to you, but people like this do not change. Why should they? There is no incentive to change as people let them get away with this behaviour time and time again.

He didn't mind who he was unti he got caught, and his supposed justification is a totally load of old bollocks.

What makes me sad is time after time, women forgive this shitty behaviour for the kids, struggle in an on with a flailing relationship, killing themselves to try and be superwife. Whilst this teaches their children to accept unacceptable behaviour... Only for the man to bog off and leave them a few years down the line anyway. Flog a dead horse for nothing.

You deserve so much better, and instead of staying for the children, LEAVE for the children. As that is what will be the best for them in the long run.

something2say Tue 25-Jun-13 08:03:46

I work in the field of people changing.
I have also changed a lot myself.
It takes years to effect deep change.
Also the person has to want to themselves.
It sounds to me as tho your husband is going to do this because he got caught rather than because he wants to for himself.
Therefore the impetus may not be there to last for years and push on through when not bothering would be easier.
I also wonder if leaving, or making him leave, would send a big loud message about who you are and where your lines are.
This is about him not you. Nothing to do with you.
X

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 08:07:31

I agree that wanting to impress strangers is such a loser thing to do. When he met them they stayed at expensive hotels (in excess of £200 per night).

I have been for sti testing. All clear. He is awaiting his results.

He has behaved outrageously. He had been on these sites for just over 2 years. He doesn't really have friends. He really doesn't like who he is. I believe that he is ashamed. I believe he wants to change.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 08:09:14

He's certainly done a number on you sad

But do you like who he is? I wouldn't. I wouldn't fancy being married to him either.

No. He wants to have his cake and eat it.

AThingInYourLife Tue 25-Jun-13 08:18:15

Whether he wants to change or can change is irrelevant really.

Your relationship is with the man who treated you like a piece of shit on his shoe so he could do as he pleased at your expense (financial, emotional, physical).

Maybe the man he turns into one day might be worth something.

But you don't know that man. He doesn't exist now, and may never exist.

Fozziebearmum2be Tue 25-Jun-13 08:21:18

I agree with others-it's about whether you can forgive and forget (assuming he wants to change and does). And if you could both truly rebuild your relationship as a couple from this -if you could I'd expect you'd be in the real minority.

For me, any cheating would be a deal breaker, I would drive myself mad with wondering and watching.

A couple of bits spring out for me-2 years..! This isn't one or two lies but hundreds and thousands he's told you over this period.

Also that he doesn't have anyone else, he may be wanting to work at this for fear of being alone than truly loving you. How did he keep it secret if he doesn't have friends to cover for him?

Hope you come to the decision which is right for you thanks

If you leave him, you will be fine. It will be scary but your kids will thrive where mum is happy and not worrying about dads whereabouts.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 08:23:08

he doesn't like women much, this bloke

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 08:23:09

Sorry for the short posts - doing school run with DC1. What I am trying to work out is whether me finding out could be the catalyst for change? I told him to leave. He has been away for a few weeks, but moved back in at the weekend. I kept blacking out, and had a fit on Friday night. I think it was a combination of stress/not eating/not sleeping. I am aware that I am still post-partum. DC3 was only a few weeks old when I found out.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 08:27:43

He could have counselling from now till hell froze over.

He could, actually, change.

But you. You would never quite know whether to trust him would you? You'd never quite believe it. You'd never quite believe when he went to the pub with his mates that he wasn't fucking another stranger. (or worse) You'd never go to bed before him calm and convinced he wasn't logging on to some wank site as soon as your head touched the pillow.

Like I imagine now you don't quite believe there were only 2 women. Because I certainly wouldn't. They were the ones you found out about.

This man despises you. Actually, no, he doesn't. He doesn't care enough about your relationship even to despise you. He just doesn't even consider you. You are nothing to him.

But from your posts I don't think for a second you will leave him. You are already defending him by referring to his self loathing. He doesn't hate himself. You hate yourself. Or you wouldn't allow yourself to even consider staying with this pathetic excuse of a human being.

flowers

beachyhead Tue 25-Jun-13 08:29:05

I hope you have managed to tell your RL friends and they can support you at the moment.

I'm sorry but I think he's sunk to such a level of shittiness that even if he improves, it will still be shit.

And I think he knows that too.

You need to protect yourself by asking him to leave.

Moxiegirl Tue 25-Jun-13 08:30:39

That's a good point how did he manage this when he has no friends to lie about being with?
I agree with the posters who say if he wants to change, fine, you don't need to be with him while he does this.
Also agree this is because he got caught and couldn't minimise it due to overwhelming evidence, so had to go for the 'i will have counselling' route.
You deserve more.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 08:33:09

I don't hate myself. I am considered very attractive. I am very well educated. I have a high level of EI. I know I would be OK on my own. If it was just me and him, of course I would walk. Even if it was me/him/dc1. I think when you have such small children (2 under 2) you try and see if there could be a way through though. This morning I feel very LTB. But I don't want to make an emotional decision.

PamDooveOrangeJoof Tue 25-Jun-13 08:34:34

He was on the sites for TWO YEARS? Oh darling, be kind to yourself and get out. Let him be somebody else's problem. What a horrible, horrible man.

I know you must be feeling super vulnerable with such a young baby... Hormones flying. But you know what you have to do.

I don't blame him for not liking the person he is. He shouldn't, he's a horrible, selfish, arsehole.

Why should you have to put up with a life watching and wondering what he is going to do next? Or feeling like you are not good enough? You don't have to...

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 08:35:34

You can still hate yourself if you're pretty and clever.

Let's call it lack of self respect then.

I'm not goading you, honestly, yours is one of the saddest most awful posts I've read for a while.

But this man of yours is serious pondlife.

woollyknickers Tue 25-Jun-13 08:36:58

Personally, I think that you should consider separating while he goes to counselling. This will really show you how committed he is to doing all the changing that he keeps talking about. Let's face it, while he's still at home with you he doesn't have to deal with ANY consequences of his, frankly, shitty behaviour towards you.

Plus, it'll give you a chance to maybe get some individual counselling yourself, alpha - to talk through how you feel about what he's done. It doesn't sound as if you get much chance to do this at the moment, as your partner has managed to make the situation more about him - how HE hates himself, how HE wants/needs you to forgive him, etc, etc.

He's been spectacularly selfish, on a number of occasions. At the very least, its time you had your turn to do the same.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 08:37:08

how you feel is all you have left, love

an "emotional decision" is completely the right one to make

Albiebee Tue 25-Jun-13 08:38:17

I'm so sorry, what you are going through must be terrible. Good luck to you and your lovely babies.

This sounds very, much like my parents relationship when I was a child. My father never really changed, his relationships were always more about him than anyone else. Sound familiar?

Let's face it, relationships are power plays, a good relationship is where you and your partner have an equal honest and fair partnership. You have not had that for two years, however he spins it (and he sounds like he has whacking great problems not simply or quickly resolved by therapy).

You have been manipulated by someone playing by different rules for a long time. That is not an honest, fair relationship. You are not a team. You were on your own and didn't even know it.
I am very sorry for both of you, and of course you must decide, but I suspect you already know the answer, it sounds to me like your relationship is already over.

Do take care of yourself and make sure you have support from friends and family. They need to know what you are going through.
x

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 08:38:21

He got away with it as he owns a company. He has evening meetings sometimes. 2 times with the first woman was in afternoons. The other times were evenings. He stayed overnight with each woman once. I found out about one of the websites and one of the women. He confessed to being a member of another site too, and the first woman and also meeting 3 others for a drink. He confessed to sending photos to one of the women.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 08:40:26

There are going to be many many more of these women that he hasn't told you about. You do know that don't you?

And a lot more sex than you know about as well.

Whocansay Tue 25-Jun-13 08:42:30

He has destroyed the trust in your relationship. I HATE his excuses though. I mean, did you ever need to get a 'buzz' from fucking around? Why did he decide that was a priority at a time when you needed him? And I take it he spent family money on these posh hotels?

As others have said, he's only sorry because he was found out, not for what he did. And he would do it again.

I'm so sorry. Only you know if you can forgive though. It easy to say LTB when it isn't you.

PamDooveOrangeJoof Tue 25-Jun-13 08:43:19

Do you want to teach your children that this behaviour is acceptable?

A daughter will learn to put up with a man that shags about... A son will learn it's ok to be a shagger! And the cycle will continue evermore.

Just two women in two years? Really?! You don't believe that do you?

And then he will probably leave you at some point anyway.

Take the power back. Kick him out. Give him the impetus to change. Perhaps in another two years if he has shown himself to be pure as the driven snow and a changed, committed family man, the maybe, just maybe you could take him back.

But let's face it, that would never happen and if it did, you would be so far moved on he wouldn't see you for dust.

If he leaves it's a win/win situation. He will either get the kick up the arse top change, or he won't and you will see you made the right decision asking him to leave.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 08:46:01

I have my first individual counselling session this saturday. It has been hard to arrange as I EBF DC3. You are right - it is all about HIM! His needs. His wants. I have effectively shelved my needs/wants for a couple of years to birth/feed/raise our children. Every text/email/message/meet up has taken time and attention from ME and us. I think I am spending so much time and energy trying to work out what the truth is about what happened. Trying to piece it together and understand WTAF he was thinking! We had a really good sex life. He has a problem communicating.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 08:46:30

Hi Alphacourse, I have lived your question for 4 years (discovered the cheating in 2009, also 2 years, he is ashamed, in therapy), so I think I am qualified to answer it.

Red flag no1: he has no friends
reg flag no2: he is ashamed.
red flag no3: he did it for an ego boost (his own admission)

Shame is NOT remorse and it is NOT repentence. (Very old fashioned words, very important dynamics). Shame is the other side of the toxic void that he tries to cover up with the buzz of having his ego tickled.

After 4 years of 'reconciliation' (where he carried on being exactly the same as he was before), and being warned by my IC that he was a narcissist and would not change, and finding out OW yet again, I am filing. But it hasn't been a wasted time (except the trying to connect with him and the hope), I have changed a lot myself.

They don't change Alpha. If they do change they do it despite being left (and work to come back to you).

I know you are not going to hear me right now, but I advise you to stop investing in this person and certainly stop hoping that he gets it. Oh, he gets it, all right. Entitlement and using people.

Chumplady: Veronica Sawyer: Heather, why can’t you just be a friend? Why do you have to be such a mega-bitch?
Heather Duke: Because I can be.

From the movie “Heathers” (1988)

Why do cheaters cheat? Because they CAN. It’s that simple. Do you need more of an answer? Okay. Because of greediness. Because of narcissism. Because of a lack of empathy for others affected by their shit decisions. Because they value ego kibbles more than they value your well-being. But the reasons simply boil down to — greed, opportunity, and not caring.

One very common mistake the Cheated Upon make is believing it is all way more complicated than that. They will invest all their energy in a pointless exercise trying to figure out the cheater — their FOO issues, their astrological sign, their addiction issues, their birth order, their purportedly low self esteem. (Newsflash — they don’t have low self esteem. They actually DO think they are better than you and more important than you.)

Figuring out the cheater is energy directed at THEM, which is energy deflected away from YOURSELF. You’re asking why they are this way, instead of asking yourself the harder question of – why am I hanging around this megabitch who’s not my friend?

I call this stage “Untangling the Skein of Fuckupedness.”

The skein is impossible, but by GOD, you’re going to unknot it, piece by piece, make it linear and you WILL understand it.

Untangling the skein of fuckupedness is a coping mechanism. You want to figure out what makes your cheater tick so you can ensure that they never do anything so devastatingly hurtful again. If it’s their FOO issues with their mom, well, you’ll call and make that counseling appointment for them. Untangling the skein is codependent behavior. Not only will you make the counseling appointments, next you’ll get your magic marker and highlight all the relevant chapters in the affair books you bought for them on Amazon.

Stop it! Stop it right now! It’s not your job to figure them out! You only get to figure out YOU. What your values are, what you will tolerate, and what is acceptable and unacceptable to YOU. That’s it.

Most cheaters are very invested in you getting lost in the skein of their fuckupedness. Hell, they don’t have to invent an excuse for their behavior, you’re doing all the work for them. There is nothing they can say by way of explanation that is not self serving and self pitying. The only thing a cheater can do is DEMONSTRATE they have remorse through their ACTIONS. Preferably a very generous divorce settlement. Failing that, a very generous postnup.

An explanation is not a balm. Getting lost in the skein prolongs your pain. Better to move towards acceptance. They did it because they COULD. So… now what? That’s on you.

Xmasbaby11 Tue 25-Jun-13 08:48:05

You know you need to split up. He's been no husband to you.

He may change but it would take years and he may still not be trustworthy. You say you can manage on your own - can you ask him to leave?

BobblyGussets Tue 25-Jun-13 08:50:19

Two years is such a long time to lie to someone who you are supposed to love and cherish. Don't you deserve better. He is not treating you as his nearest and dearest. Who takes care of you when you are looking after your DCs? Do you feel loved? Do you ever want to sleep with him again?

I wouldn't. He has lied to you, his attractive, interligent loving wife, for years? Why? What more could he possibly want? LTB. He is dirty, cruel, selfish and deceitful. All this talk of therapy sounds like he has not taken ownership of what he has done. You are worth so much more. The Dcs won't always be this young and dependant; things will get easier in that respect. Emotionally they won't though, if you stay with him. Really, get rid and cherish yourself and your children. He doesn't. I wish you the best.

nenevomito Tue 25-Jun-13 08:50:24

Therapy isn't a miracle cure and its no guarantee that he won't cheat on you again.

He's put your health at risk - and as he was sleeping with them during pregnancy he put your babies health at risk too. The latter would be enough for me to want to end it.

I can really understand why you want to give it a go. You love him, you have children with him and you don't want to break up your family. But these weren't affairs where he met and fell for someone he knew. These are affairs where he's actively sought out women to cheat on you with, mostly at times when you were vulnerable.

I'd not be able to forgive, I'm afraid.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 08:50:42

I am going to say something now and I want you to know that my intention is not to upset you.

I understand, more than you can possibly know, all the feelings you are experiencing. I say nothing with the intention of hurting you.

I also hope it's not as waffly as I fear it is going to be. (just finished typing and I am sorry but it is. Just skip it if you can't be arsed. )

OK.

People say leave. It's always leave leave leave. People are so strong and decisive and take no shit when it's not their life and not their emotions. From outside the situation, leave is the right thing to do. But often when you are in it, you don't want to. Maybe you feel you're not strong enough. Maybe you're scared - of being alone, of not coping. Maybe of being in a bad financial situation. Maybe you'd rather be with someone - anyone - than be alone. Maybe it's a self confidence thing - you're so desperate to be loved that you'll pretend someone who can shit on you can also love you. Maybe being with someone is saying to the world LOOK! Someone wants me. And it's more frightening to lose that than to accept that the person you are with is a bastard. Maybe you feel you can't cope with children by yourself. Maybe you want to make it all ok in order to somehow prove that it wasn't all a lie, that he did love you-that he does love you, in spite of what he's done. There's a million maybes.

It's hard. It's painful.

But leaving is only one option.

You can choose to stay. But understand the choice you are making. You are choosing what in all likelihood will be a life of unhappiness and insecurity. Every time he is out, you'll wonder if he's off shagging some woman. Every time he gets a text message, you'll wonder if it's an arrangement. You'll have a hole in your stomach that burns you. It'll feel like a bottomless pit. Will you check his computer history? Install a secret key logger? Will you look at his phone when he goes to the loo? Will you get up early so you can search his jacket pocket? Will you believe him when he says he's going to the gym, to the shop, doing some overtime? Will your heart sink if he's late home?

You'll have to work so hard to trust him and will you ever stop wondering if he's going to do it again? And you will never forget that this man could tell you that he loved you, hug and hold you, look you in the eye and then go off and shag someone else. And come back to you so casual and happy that you didn't even realise what he'd done.

Maybe you'll be lucky and in the end you'll switch off and stop giving a shit if he's home or not, or what he might be doing. That's better than torturing yourself with visions of him slapping his sack against some woman.

Hopefully at least you will accept that it was never you, it was something fundamentally wrong with him. But you'll likely torture yourself for years before you finally accept that.

Sure, some people come through shit like this and are stronger, happier, blah blah blah - but I promise you they are in the minority. Most are never ever the same. For most, it's like a little part of them is taken away and replaced with a painful kind of nothingness. And they learn to live with it until it just becomes part of them and they can't remember what it felt like to not have that little piece of nothingness.

You will make a choice. Perhaps you'll choose to leave, perhaps you'll choose to stay. But take responsibility for your choice. Own it. Don't fool yourself that you don't have a choice. Whatever you decide from now on is all on you. You can't change who he is, what he is capable of doing to you, you can only decide what you will accept in life.

Choices are not always good. It's not like we agonise over Choice A - great and wonderful thing v Choice B - shitty crap painful thing.

Mostly - it's a case of pick your pain. Choose your steaming pile of crap.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever your decision is. At the end of the day, it's your life and you'll be the one living it.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 08:55:21

"He says it was about the buzz of getting girls to be impressed by him. "

he gave you this red flag himself, out of his own mouth! Read those words. Read them. Buzz, 'getting', 'impressed by him'.

My husband's explanation: OW was a 'fantasy' that made me 'feel good'.

Please see the objectification, but don't leave yourself out. You are a thing, too. He cannot connect enough to make friends. He cannot connect, full stop.

Good luck Alpha, so sorry. Chumplady.com. I quote her a lot, because after 15 books on affairs, 3 years of therapy, multiple reconciliation and marriage healing sites, she tells it exactly like it is. She really does.

I hope you throw him out and watch him 'change' from a distance. But you will do it in your own time and at your own pace.

(Does he earn well? Is he a partner or a husband? If I were you, if you were foolish enough to not be married I would insist on marriage now for him to 'prove his love', to get the legal contract, make him sign a post nup and then at the FIRST sign of further narcissism, file. He has played you, so protect yourself by playing him). But I am a bitch that way.

BobblyGussets Tue 25-Jun-13 08:58:31

Brialliant posts from WellWobbly and Hecsy. Read them OP.
I hope you are ok and not too distraught. I realised we are all being very practical and "LTB". If I was there with you I would give you a hug and a strong Baileys coffee thanks.

Xales Tue 25-Jun-13 09:03:14

He could have got women to be impressed with him without the final step of sex.

Why did one of them contact you if they met via a sex for married website? That doesn't make sense. Unless she was more than a once off married. I think she was an affair.

Simple fact is he wanted to fuck other women.

If these women were or were not from a site looking for sex they may have been round a few pathetic cheating men so massiveBL get yourself to the STI clinic asap.

AnAirOfHope Tue 25-Jun-13 09:06:53

LTB you cant change him or save him from himself.

Leave give him two years to sort himself out then start relate. This is not going to get better in a few weeks or months. The foundation of your relationship needs rebuilding and he needs to sort himself out before you can sort out uou as a couple.

In the two years you may find someone else, see he cant change or find out that you cant forgive him but you will protect yourself emotionally, financial and your health.

I will go a bit against the grain and say that yes, I think people can change. I know because I am one of them. I don't know how common it is, maybe I'm just a rare occurrence? But it's not impossible.

BUT I think you need to separate that question from the question of what you actually do right now. I think he is actually more likely to change if he is not living with you. He will be forced to do it for himself and to really invest in it. And if he drops out of therapy after leaving, well, you will know for sure he was just giving you words about change.

What other support do you have in real life? Because while I do think it would be good if he moved out, you obviously do need help and support, with two small babies and some health issues.

I can understand how frustrating it must be right now because in essence you are trying to read the future, to guess what will happen. But you can't read the future, and you will drive yourself crazy trying.

Better to focus on today and what is best right now. Personally, I think that means he moves out and continues getting help, and you get support from other sources.

Maybe you can't predict where you will be a year from now, but if you try to do what's best for you every day, then you will naturally go down a path that is best for you, if you see what I mean, and it will take you somewhere good.

Basically, the question of whether he can change is a big distraction. Focus on YOU and what you need, right now.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:08:57

wellwobbly thank you - how does he demonstrate through actions though? We arent married. My exDH was very slow giving me a divorce and DP and I wanted children. I was late 30s so we decided to try for children and then get married once my divorce was through. We got engaged in March lol!!!

hecsy I know that this isn't about me, or something I have/haven't done This is about HIM and his selfishness and weaknesses.

Will there have been others? Why lie now, when it would make no difference? Whether he met up with 5 or 15 doesn't really matter does it. Why not confess all - put all cards on the table?

newbiefrugalgal Tue 25-Jun-13 09:14:26

On a practical sense can you get an older Aupair/mothers help to move in. Someone who can help with the children so that you don't have to rely on your dp. I think him moving back in now is a big mistake, practically yes and for your health yes but for the relationship -NO! You have dealt with this since having a new born without a chance to just recover from that.
Get him out.
Get the help in you need and give yourself time to make a decision.
Take the pressure off yourself in fact and put not pressure on making any decisions (only thing that worked for me)

RoooneyMara Tue 25-Jun-13 09:14:58

It sounds like he is desperate to work out his own issues, however these have nothing to do with you, or with the way he treated you.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 09:16:31

Fantastic post Hecsy, I lived what you wrote!

THIS - Hopefully 'at least you will accept that it was never you, it was something fundamentally wrong with him. But you'll likely torture yourself for years before you finally accept that.'

It isnt you Alpha. It is him.

mummytime Tue 25-Jun-13 09:16:46

Because he doesn't want to feel bad. It might make him feel worse if it was 15, but 5 he can cope with. A one night stand doesn't count if you've got deeply emotionally involved.

The "Script" is heavy on minimising followed by blame shifting: "it was her fault, she threw herself at me" or "you were so distant, I felt vulnerable".

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:17:39

Xales -the woman who contacted me was in a relationship when they met (March 2012). He says he met up with her 5 times between then and October 2012. The had arranged to meet a few times afterwards but the meetings were cancelled. They met up again for coffee in Feb 2013 where she said that her relationship was over and that she wanted to see more of him. He said he didnt want to. They have had no contact since.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:28:41

On the plus side he has taken responsibility for his actions - he has said it is all about him, and he is fucked up. Made it clear that he won't ever blame me or problems with us. So....It appear I have a full house of LTB?!

cozietoesie Tue 25-Jun-13 09:32:08

Why on earth did she actually contact you? What had he been saying about you/your relationship that made her feel she either could or should?

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 09:37:39

Nope. Not from me. I think you've got the right to make whatever choice is right for you. Nobody outside the situation can tell you what to do, we can only give you lots of things to think about when you make your decision.

I'm just saying choose carefully and take responsibility for your choice and don't be under any illusions and understand how painful life can be.

Additionally - one very painful thing I've learned is the number of people who feel you lose the right to moan once you've made the choice to stay (as I am getting the strong feeling you have. It appears you are looking for reasons to stay, for ways to stay). As my dear old dad once said to me (about something different but painful) put up or shut up.

I've sadly learned that many people stop giving a crap if you choose to stay in a situation but continue to want to talk about it. All they see is well, if you won't leave, why the hell are you moaning? So you may find yourself on your own with it. That's another thing to bear in mind too. Who are you going to talk to?

carolthesecretary Tue 25-Jun-13 09:42:30

Knowing what I know now...

I wouldn't waste a minute longer on this loser. Life is short. He has seriously let you down. Why wait to see if he will let you down again. Because he will. I can assure you...

Lweji Tue 25-Jun-13 09:45:04

You have to ask yourself why all the confessional too after all his deceit.

He didn't think of it as a problem until he was caught. He could easily have gone to therapy before, using any excuse, or secretly.

By telling you everything (or quite a lot), and you forgiving him, he's carving out a precedent that you don't really mind it, and you can forgive it.
It would make him feel good about himself again, after being punished with a few weeks away.
It's very likely that he'd go back to his old ways.

Is he being very open about how he spends his time, his phone, e-mail, etc?
Do you want to police him all your life?

bestsonever Tue 25-Jun-13 09:47:53

A fanciful idea that once kicked out the path would be free for her. She obviously has her own psychological issues as despite the site she was on she was deluded in thinking a relationship could come of it - that is messed up too.
Work on yourself OP, look at why you find it so hard to get rid of him and solve what is stopping that. This would not be time and energy wasted.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:48:46

Thank you. I have spoken to only a couple of close friends. They will support me whatever I decide luckily. Likewise my SIL. I haven't decided to stay...or to go. My decision changes daily - that it why I asked for help to clarify my options.

cozie She says it wasn't her. I received a friend request on facebook from her. She can't explain it.

I am going to drip feed here - sorry.

Last year I saw a couple of messages on his phone between him and a girl. "wow - ive just seen you" "wow - ive just seen you too" followed by one from him saying "im in The Long Bar with my friend. I have told him about you - can't you come and meet us?". I confronted him at the time. He said that she was somebody that he had been in contact with on a dating site (we met on one) before we met. Said that she had contacted him out of the blue and that he had met her for coffee. He was so stupid/sorry. Nothing had ever happened/ever would etc. I was pregnant at the time, and I think that you don't see things as clearly when you are so vulnerable?

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:50:16

this girl is a frickin divorce lawyer!!!

akaWisey Tue 25-Jun-13 09:51:36

alpha hi.

I lived the latter, very painful, half of hecsy's brilliant post for about 3 years post first OW (that I know of). It almost destroyed me emotionally. I was on my own with it, really on my own.

No-one knew I'd made a choice to stay with a man who could profess to love me but could lie, lie, lie and lie. But everyone knew the day I found out about second OW (that I know of) and whether he's a changed man or not is neither here nor there to me. It's what he did to OUR marriage which matters.

By the way. My ex had therapy whilst he was having the affair and lied all through that too. He lied to his OW. He lied to our DC's. He DID blame me.

He is a therapist by the way.

I don't believe your P will change alpha. But like hecsy has said, you make a choice about staying regardless of whether he can and will. He is who he is.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:52:05

I think what is stopping me is fear of change? What I thought my life was v. the reality is a lot to get my head around. Sometimes I find myself just pretending it is all OK. Other times I am a sobbing mess. I see photographs on the wall and divide them into 'before' and 'after' these liaisons.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 09:54:21

So you caught him once and he was oh so sorry and it would never happen again etc etc and he just carried on looking for people to betray you with?

And you've caught him again and he's oh so sorry and blah blah blah - so what will be different this time?

Remember what Einstein said - Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

What makes you think he will stop? He's been doing it for years. You've caught him once and he carried on. You've shown him that he can do it and you'll believe him/forgive him. What in your view makes this different?

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 09:55:41

We are all afraid of change.

When this life becomes more painful than what you imagine the change will be, that will be when you will leave.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 09:59:57

"What makes you think he will stop? He's been doing it for years. You've caught him once and he carried on. You've shown him that he can do it and you'll believe him/forgive him. What in your view makes this different?" That is what I am asking him AGAIN this evening. He said that me finding out the reality is his catalyst for change. That he wishes he could turn back the clock and make different choices.

cozietoesie Tue 25-Jun-13 10:02:35

alpha

What be wishes is that he hadn't been found out.

You're just wanting people to persuade you to stay with him, aren't you?

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 10:06:06

I agree - he wishes he hadn't been found out. I dont want people to persuade me to stay! Not at all! He is very good at messing with my head. It is so easy to pretend that this will all go away while he is here. But it won't. I am just trying to wok out how much of what he says about changing is the truth. IS there a chance this could work. or am I being delusional?

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 10:07:13

So you finding out last time wasn't? He was able to lie his way out of it so he thought phew, I'll carry on for now...

I wouldn't bother falling for the "oh, I wish I could go back in time, I'm soooooooo sorry" crap.

That doesn't help you.

If it is not your choice to leave, then what you need to know is what is he going to do NOW. How is he going to show you that you can trust him to not just carry on, since he has already demonstrated that he's been a cheat and a liar for much of your relationship.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 10:08:02

I think you are being delusional.

cozietoesie Tue 25-Jun-13 10:17:01

I think you're being delusional. With 3 DCs and worrying about the future, I can appreciate why - but I still think that you're on a hiding to nothing here. Sorry.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 25-Jun-13 10:21:24

Sorry but I am with the others.

He comes across as fucked up with ingrained traits, values and beliefs - changing himself will be a very long and hard journey taking years and it will be like looking at a mirror and seeing all his faults magnified. He may think he wants to change because he has just been found out and does not want to lose his cosy set up at home. But as time goes on, he will realise just how too much hard work it is and decide its much easier to go back to shagging other women to fill that hole inside him.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 10:29:48

madabout your post has hit home. Yes - he has used these sites to fill a void in him. He has used it to validate himself - the need for recognition and admiration.

AThingInYourLife Tue 25-Jun-13 10:30:16

How can you listen to all that self-pitying adolescent guff about how fucked up he is and how he hates himself and not laugh in his lying, self-justifying face?

You think the fact that he is not trying to blame you for the fact that he has been fucking lots of other women for years says anything good about him?!

What he has been caught doing (and no way has an inveterate liar like him started telling the whole truth overnight) is so awful that he knows he needs to straight to the philanderer's last resort: "poor me, I hate myself, I'm so fucked up."

That is still avoiding responsibility.

It's saying that he is overcome by forces within himself that he can't control.

But the reality is that he meets women for sex behind your back because he enjoys it and he doesn't see why he shouldn't.

He's not fucked up.

He's just a common or garden prick.

bestsonever Tue 25-Jun-13 10:31:45

He fears change too, which is why he's bending over backwards to persuade you to stick with him. So this boils down to 2 people who fear change.
While you are hoping that he will change, what of you?
Change is often good in the long run. Facing the fear and dealing with it builds self-esteem and will put you on the right path in life sooner, to aim towards a future you build for your own and your DC's needs.
Or you could waste years hoping for him to be the one to change whilst not addressing your own fear of change and getting nowhere.
You both need to work on healing yourselves separately for improvement to occur. Really bad idea to have him back while you work on issues, you will both get distracted by trying to sort each other out, when it's yourselves you need to focus on. You only have the power to alter yourself, not each other.

To be honest, the change question is a red herring. Fact is, he did it. He happily lied and cheated and fucked other women knowing full well that he was betraying you and screwing you over and risking your health and happiness. Can he stop being the person who did that to you? Never. You are focussing on whether he can stop this behaviour (doubtful) to avoid focussing on what he actually did to you. And that's not really forgiveable IMO.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Tue 25-Jun-13 10:32:08

Whatever you decide - do NOT allow him to become the helpless victim here.

CinnamonAddict Tue 25-Jun-13 10:38:00

You got together, both wanted children. You had 2 children in 2 years and in all this time he has betrayed you, lied about it afterwards, minimised.

Yes, he has a huge problem, and he has taken steps to address it.

I think (and heard this many many times) that people don't change (that much). Not what's at the very core, what's hidden under lots of layers we put on over the years.

And I don't mean habits that are learned, but character traits that make us who we are.

I know I would not be able to cope with this level of deceit.

Look after yourself please. You recently had a baby and have a toddler as well. This is a difficult time without the crap your partner is putting your way. In almost every case this like this what you found out and he admitted is only the tip of the iceberg.

He does not deserve you. I have never openly said it but my advice is LTB.

Catheric Tue 25-Jun-13 10:43:02

May I be the first to say what a wankbadger? I can't pretend to know what you're going through because I haven't been in this situation but from all I know, and as neutral as I'm trying to be, I think this weekend might have to be the final straw? Blacking out and fitting because of the stress he has put you under, particularly as you are feeding DC3 who relies on you so much, must surely be a sign that this situation is getting to the point where something needs to happen (eating might be a start ;) ).

I'm not going to say LTB because I want you to know that whatever you decide we will all support you in whatever you decide and be there for you and your gorgeous DC.

You are so strong and I really admire you for that. Unmumsnetty {{{hugs}}}

Who cares if he wants to change?

Let him do what he wants - without dragging you and the kids down with him.

Potteresque97 Tue 25-Jun-13 11:21:49

I don't think I could ever believe him again, what hecsy said. Your DH sounds like a manipulative liar who has realized that he's been caught trying to have his cake and eat it, realized the cost, and is now saying anything to get you to accept him back. You are in a sad situation with the small dc, awful, but how can you give up a chance at a relationship with a person you can really trust? I can't see how it can be him now...do you want to grow old with this guy, knowing how he's treated you? He can still be a good dad if you split up.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 11:28:25

GET MARRIED NOW.

Half that company? It's yours, because you bore his children.

Please believe me on this one.

Make a quick marriage a condition of you not kicking him out.

All that right-on bullshit about it just being a piece of paper???? That P o P is a LEGAL and BINDING CONTRACT.

FrequentFlyerRandomDent Tue 25-Jun-13 11:30:21

I agree with the others.

However I have picked up in you fainting all the time and not eating properly. Please talk to more people in RL life and get practical and emotional support. You need to eat, sleep and be comforted. Otherwise you will be too weak and vulnerable to think straight.

By not telling people who can help you, you are protecting him but also differing or negating help for yourself. Ask for help for food preparation, chores, to have a nap, school pick ups, etc. the shame and embarrassment is his, not yours.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 11:38:56

I don't think marriage now is a great idea to be honest. He can fold the company and set up a new one. He has several. He earns more than 100k on paper, bet gets a lot of cash too. I don't want to be twice divorced!

newbiefrugalgal Tue 25-Jun-13 12:02:33

Is your home in both names?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 12:23:41

Reading latest posts I doubt very much that he has stopped fucking other women.

I also v much doubt you would get him up the aisle. Not that I would advocate it. Especially if one of his fucks is a divorce lawyer. He will be well up to speed on his rights.

MissStrawberry Tue 25-Jun-13 12:24:30

If you don't want to be twice divorced, don't marry this prat.

You don't like change, lots of us don't but you aren't living the life you thought with the man you thought he was so you already have had change and it didn't stop the world turning.

Leaving now while the kids are small is the best thing imo. So many people stay only to leave later when the kids are older and then regret the wasted years.

Do what is best for you and only then your children. You deserve a good life too, not a shit one because you think it is best for the kids to live in the same house as their father.

Good luck.

FrequentFlyerRandomDent Tue 25-Jun-13 12:24:33

Don't get married. He could easily insist in a pre nup to keep his assets anyway, etc.

Please take care of yourself so that you can think clearly.

AnAirOfHope Tue 25-Jun-13 12:34:45

How do you feel about an open marrage?

Does him having sex with others bother you?

How would he feel about you having sex with other men and him looking after the kids? Cos you want the buzz of having sex with strangers!

Maybe you should try it and see what he thinks angry

Its up to you if you stay or not, its your life and only you know whats best for you.

PamDooveOrangeJoof Tue 25-Jun-13 12:41:00

So much amazing advice on this thread. Please do take care of yourself. Whilst going through something similar, I managed to lose half a stone in less than a week, so please make sure you eat.

Again, I'm so sorry you are going through this awful time.

maleview70 Tue 25-Jun-13 13:07:23

Would he have gone to therapy had he not been found out?

Very much doubt it......

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee Tue 25-Jun-13 13:19:02

For someone who claims to be highly educated you are being particularly stupid.

He is sorry he got caught.

He is sorry he might lose the convenience of being with you (being looked after)

He got away with it before.

He knows you feel you want to make it work for the kids sake.

He is playing you - he doesn't want to change, he wants things to go back to how they were and given the way things are going he has every chance of achieving that.

He is ridiculous I justified it to myself that it was as safe a way as possible of getting the kick that I needed and not hurting my family and you as it was with like minded people that were also looking for a bit of a buzz I mean, what the actual fuck??????

Wise up

He will not change.

<hug> you are better than this - act like it!!

<I hope that a few of these 'FGS woman - wise up' posts will get through to you and help you to do what you actually, already, know you need to do!!>

Branleuse Tue 25-Jun-13 13:20:38

he'll be trying to get the buzz of winning you back, rather than any intent not to cheat again. You are wasting your time.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 13:32:27

yep, bran

from on e"buzz" to another

and when the thrill/challenge (although you are not exactly making it very difficult...) of winning you back wears off as it inevitably will, he will start looking outside your relationship again

future behaviour can be predicted by past behaviour and this bloke has red flags all over him

like mad said, this nobber has a howling, swirling void where integrity and decency ought to be

it must be horrible inside his head...but that is for him to sort out, and not on your time

Maybe it's possible he can change, but even then, it doesn't mean that you can make things work. You can't erase what he's done.

Instead of asking yourself whether he can change, maybe ask yourself whether you can be ok in this relationship ever again, whether he changes or not. Are you willing to put in so much effort to getting past this, even though you haven't done anything wrong? Are you willing to learn how to cope with distrust and anger and all the other emotions he will continue to evoke in you for years to come?

Don't you think you deserve a better life than this?

By focusing on whether he can change, it continues to make it all about him.

Cherriesarelovely Tue 25-Jun-13 13:46:17

Sorry Op what a hideous situation. I've comitted the cardinal sin of not reading the whole thread but emphatically NO you cannot trust this idiotic man. You undoubtably deserve so much more.

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 13:52:35

I agree about Wobbly red flags, namely he has no friends, he is ashamed, he feels the need to deceive in order to get an ego boost.

Those are really deep set issues which it would take a lot of hard and sustained work to address.

I also agree that the change would be better if he were not present in your home, for numerous reasons mentioned by others.

On the other hand, I don’t think it is true that people cannot change sufficiently, and I do think that getting caught can act as a catalyst. Clearly, its better for someone to come to realisation by other means, but many of us in different ways come to change from enormous catalytic shocks of some sort or another.

My experience of an H who was sex chatting OW online and exchanging photos for some years is that it has acted as a catalyst. He stopped 21 months ago.

However, but........

It is much harder than the philanderer realises
Many of the changes he needs to make are not about sex, but about his whole attitude to life, you, others.
That is a great deal of work for the philanderer
It is inevitably diverting for the betrayed spouse, even when you try for it not to be, and I assume even tougher if the children are younger.
You would have to be prepared to police yourself not to police him- the urge to check and snoop etc etc if very strong, I found, even if that is not natural to you
Every small failure takes you back to the beginning.

I agree totally with Wobbly that you must resist every urge to look at his ‘whys’ and act as his support and counsellor. I didn’t do that well at all at the start, for months, and thoroughly regret it. It is simply not your problem, issue or business, and you can never be his mum or therapist, even if you were beforehand to some extent.

I agree that you need to focus solely on what you want to do next, and also give yourself time to do that. You don’t need to make a decision now, and in some ways it may not be good to, as you are too stunned, let alone distracted by a new baby.

I think I would ask him to set himself up elsewhere, leave the door open whilst you think, and let the next steps emerge.

The last point I would make is that you have not been together for so long, it seems. That would possibly have made a difference if it were me. As it happened we were 15 years together before the infidelity started and 21 before I discovered it, and with teenagers who had opinions to contribute. Even then, we moved house and partly as I bore in mind that leaving him at a later date, if necessary, would be easier to do with a smaller mortgage.

HomageToCannelloni Tue 25-Jun-13 13:53:39

He may be able to change, who knows, but he will never change within the confines of your relationship, because if you let him stay, somewhere deep down he will feel you are able to be treated badly. Then, after time, when all this has settled down and he has you convinced that he is different, and when the drama that he feeds on has died down, he will get bored again, and he will look outside your marriage to distract himself from that boredom.

What if he does that just when you truly need him? If your parents are terminally ill or god forbid your kids or you... What if its when your kids are sitting their sats, or a levels, or finals at uni and hou dont feel you can leave because of that...

If you cannot trust him when things are going well and you have a good sex life what is going to happen when you are under extreme pressure, or if your lose your libido. If you had a car accident and could never walk again would he stick by you? Would you be 'enough' then for him not to stray? This is what will be on your mind if you not make him leave.

If you do make him leave he MAY by some miracle, realise what an asshole he is and truly change. I sincerely doubt it tbh from what you have shared, but there is more chance if you kick him out of your life and make him work for you than if you just let him stay. It's cliched pop psychology, but in 90% of relationships I've seen crumble because of infidelity, it's been leaving which has truly given the wake up call needed.

Lweji Tue 25-Jun-13 13:53:58

He has used it to validate himself - the need for recognition and admiration.

Assuming this is true, he won't get any recognition and admiration from you now, I'm sure.
So, he'll be (is already?) back on it.

HomageToCannelloni Tue 25-Jun-13 13:54:48

And fwiw. I honestly believe that your children will cope better if you split when they are younger than later. At this stage you are their world, when they are older his leaving will be much, much harder.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 13:56:48

Wisey - "No-one knew I'd made a choice to stay with a man who could profess to love me but could lie, lie, lie and lie. But everyone knew the day I found out about second OW (that I know of) and whether he's a changed man or not is neither here nor there to me. It's what he did to OUR marriage which matters.

By the way. My ex had therapy whilst he was having the affair and lied all through that too. He lied to his OW. He lied to our DC's. He DID blame me. "

Me too! I have only really just accepted (found OW again, after he profusely regretted his affair 4 years ago - get the split) that 'this' is not something that can be negotiated or connected with, and nor do I want to, any longer.

OK Alpha, if you do not want to get married, how are you going to protect yourself moving forward? What about accommodation, I hear that the CSA allocations are beyond pathetic.

Will you be OK?

Cherriesarelovely Tue 25-Jun-13 14:02:52

Homage, some of your post reminded me so much of a friend of mine who used to cheat on all her boyfriends. I was so shocked when she told me she secretly despised one bf because he forgave her hence "allowing"her to behave like that!

Lweji Tue 25-Jun-13 14:04:02

Regarding marriage, alpha, you'd better get legal advise on it.
Splitting up becomes so much more difficult, and there would be the costs too. You wouldn't be able to use legal aid, unless there was DV or abuse.

And it would be a mockery of the vows, IMO.

Only if you are prepared to believe him and make a serious go of your marriage (or accept an open marriage).

Sometimes we have to accept our losses, rather than put unnecessary burdens on our lives.

Cherriesarelovely Tue 25-Jun-13 14:06:27

Btw she has now been happily married for 10 years and told me she would never cheat on her dh because he made it absolutely clear at the beginning that if shever cheated that would be it and she believes him.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 25-Jun-13 14:15:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BicBiro Tue 25-Jun-13 14:19:23

lets break this down

1) man has void (we ALL have a void to some extent)
2) man temporarily fills void with loving partner and kids
3) man discovers actually this doesnt work longterm
4) man decides NOT to look within himself to see what the cause of this might but goes off shagging instead. so therefore, causing his family pain is preferable to him experiencing his own void
5) man gets found out
6) man experiences pain at getting found out with the realisation that his void soon might having nothing to fill it. shit!! must avoid at all costs! man soothes it by putting all energy into attending therapy and offering platitudes of 'winning' partner back and 'proving' he has changed
7) partner gives him second chance. man feels soothed.
8) void is again temporarily filled with bliss at having partner back and being loved again (phew! close one!)
9) man discovers actually this doesnt work longterm.....

and so on.

if he really wanted to change he would have realised the void is about him BEFORE he shagged other women and taken steps to sort it out then. doing it as a reaction is just shite and really is an insult to your intelligence. it's a box ticking exercise, that's all, on the List Of Thing's Cheaters Need To Do Once Found Out in order to resume normality.

a man trying to 'win' you back makes you a prize, not a person. you are a 'thing'.

Please open your eyes and see what the rest of us are seeing.

Oscalito Tue 25-Jun-13 14:25:41

He used a married site so as to 'not hurt his family.' ???

How noble.

I'm sorry, I know it must be hell to accept, but you are dealing with a manipulative, self-pitying little turd.

Your life will be much, much easier without something as vile as him in it.

cannotfuckingbelievethis Tue 25-Jun-13 14:32:15

Mr Ryangoslingspants is far from perfect but I utterly and totally believe 100% that he has never cheated on me. If I ever found out he had, I could probably forgive him and I'd probably still love him but I could never trust him and for that reason we'd be fucked. It would be over.

Can you ever really trust him again after this ?

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 14:38:51

I totally agree that the void is about 'him' (or her, for that matter, if it is a woman doing it).

Most people choose not to address the void. They may in counselling address the symptom of the void, eg infidelity.

But people can recognise and address it, if they are really prepared to go there. And at any stage, I think.

It is just that most dont, or think that they have when they have not.

BicBiro Tue 25-Jun-13 14:47:58

lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he does really want to address it.

it will take years. it's HARD to do this. it involves the addressing and undoing years of often painful beliefs, thoughts and behaviours which so far have facilitated him in avoiding that void.

plus whilst he has you hanging around he will never feel the void completely - because you will be fillling it in some way, however small. enabling him.

and what do you do in the meantime, over these years? you get to support him on his life journey of his? mothering him, reassuring him when he's down, being there for him.

where are you in all of this? are you scared of the void this will leave in you if you ask him to leave? are you both avoiding your voids?

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 15:06:57

One should be doing nothing of the sort. What you do is check eradicate any enabling behaviour which you already had in you, and get on with your life.

As I said upthread.

It isnt easy, and certainly I am not advocating it. Whether the betraying spouse changes or not, the other one does tend to. Believe me. Even last week, Wobbly said she did not regret the four years, as she changed herself so much, and learned so much.

The issue is, not can we guarantee it wont happen again, because we can not.

It is rather, whether we feel at this stage it is possible, there is evidence (too soon to say after a few weeks), and whether ^there are enough reasons to stay or enough benefit in the relationship/situation for us to decide to stay. At this stage.

Nobody can decide that for you.

It is simply not the case that once a cheater means always a cheater.

And even though people who have not gone through this have very valid views and one kind of clarity, it is simply not the same as being in the situation. And everyone's circumstances are different.

But people should stay with their eyes open, and most certainly take steps to protect themselves. A post nup is a fantastic idea, and that would test him. I wish I had had it suggested to me.

OP, let him gamble on himself with his future and money. You will be doing so, if you stay, it is true.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 15:08:50

I have thought and thought about what you have all said. You are right. I am not in love with HIM. I am in love with who I THOUGHT he was.

Short term - we rent out house (bleddy pricey it is too - over 2.5k per month!). I get SMP at the minute until end of sept. I would get housing benefit until then. The min he would have to pay according to CSA calc is 1.3k per month. I also get maintenance for DC1. I could manage - I would HAVE to manage! We are about to sell my car and get something more tax and fuel efficient. I will start to make my plan.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 15:17:07

We will all hold your hand and cheer you on. And pass the tissues and gin when they are needed.

You can do this.

BicBiro Tue 25-Jun-13 15:21:02

well done alphacourse. its great to hear you are making decisions based on your needs right now. let him sort himself out.

keep posting.

Lweji Tue 25-Jun-13 15:21:06

Yes, you can.

:D

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 15:27:18

<Deep breath>

akaWisey Tue 25-Jun-13 15:33:57

Cheering you on from the sidelines alpha.

It's true, you know, what was said upthread. Even if your P can't/won't change you CAN and you most definitely WILL if you give yourself a fighting chance.

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 15:37:15

Well done for making a decision for you.

You are back in control if your life.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 16:04:29

Love, you wouldn't have posted here if you were completely convinced that he was going to come through

You knew you were making a mistake to let him make all the decisions here. He lost that right when he disrespected his family. All the best x

fredd Tue 25-Jun-13 16:10:12

Hello,

I am a lurker but couldn't refrain from posting after reading this thread.

I found out my husband was having an affair last year. I asked him to leave. After two weeks of being a complete bastard, he came back wanting to try again. It all developed from 'the script' etc. I subsequently went digging and hacked all email accounts, and found out he had also visited massage parlours for a massage with a happy ending. Nice. He also booked one prostitute and slept with her, twice. All in all this happened over a 3 year period. About 6 visits to the parlours, and then a 12 week full on affair.

Reasons? He was bored, wanted excitement, our children were 4 and 1 when all this started.

I have been analysing this for over a year now and my brain aches constantly.

I havent left. Yet.

The shock was far to great. And to be honest the shock still has not worn off. I still feel close to tears all the time. Cant listen to all my favourite music (makes me sad and cry) when I have precious time with my children I am staring at my iphone searching 'can my marriage survive infidelity' and looking how it can make some couples stronger.my life is slipping away before my eyes.

I have no idea what I am going to do. But whilst this insanity continues, my husband is daily begging for forgiveness, still. He admitted the whole truth in January. 10 months after I initially discovered the affair. Maybe this full admission unprompted was a little to late coming.

He said he was selfish, he never analysed what he was doing because he knows so many men who do it. He normalised it, justified it all for the sake of a quick wank. He said he never stopped loving me, whatever...

I dont think you don't have to decide anything yet. Just take each day as it comes and start by looking after yourself & making secret plans should the time come if and when you do feel ready to decide. I also have a rainy day fund,a secret stash of money which i add to daily/weekly every time i can. theres quite a bit saved now, its not deceitful in my eyes, just a little stash of independence to help me should i need to leave one day smile and a thank you to myself for being a sahm for 8 years ;) I am have also spent the last 15 months gaining a qualification so i can start looking for work asap.

xx

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 16:19:03

fredd, your husband is a disgusting individual

staying with him will kill all your self respect

stop listening to his mealy-mouthed words and examine his actions

"so many men" do not do this, there are lots of men out there who wouldn't dream of trashing their family like this, nor do they hate women like he has demonstrated with his casual use of the sex industry, couching it as a "mistake"

vile, utterly vile

I hope you get out very, very soon

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 17:05:36

fredd sorry to hear you are going through this pain too.

I think I will have to bide my time a little to make a plan. He can be horrid when challenged (swearing/throwing things)

Catheric Tue 25-Jun-13 17:21:54

You know you have a bolthole here if you need it. Be strong and ask for help if you need anything xx

MissStrawberry Tue 25-Jun-13 17:28:09

OP, please make sure your children and you are safe at all times and maybe think about telling someone who could come round immediately if he turns nasty. Don't be afraid to ring the police if he gets violent. Throwing things would count as that I would think.

Good luck.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 17:33:14

Thank you catheric - I hope it won't come to that though? I DO need to plan though. Does throwing things near you when you are feeding the baby and calling you a cunt in front of the DC count as DV?

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 17:44:39

yes, yes, yes

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 17:47:02

is cath a RL friend ? Take her up on her offer. Your husband is going to hurt you and/or the kids very soon. That is vile abusive behaviour.

Please ring Women's Aid and ask their opinion of it. They will tell you it is domestic abuse of a frightening level and likely to get worse, not better, when you start to stand up to this man.

That is not a reason to kow-tow to him of course, but you need some RL support, both from friends and professionals if he is throwing things near a baby and calling you a cunt.

Vile man.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 17:49:45

Please ask yourself why you have considered staying with a man like this. I am badly struggling to understand it. You need to protect your children. Firstly from his aggression and violence. Secondly, from the damaging lessons of "forgiving" actions designed to rip your family apart for his own selfish issues.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 17:51:16

Alpha, yes it does.
(count as abuse)
Don't bide your time for longer than you have to. Or those babies of yours will have that kind of abuse of their mother as one of their earliest memories.

That's how I remember my Dad when I was little. With my Mum cowering in my bed.

The more you tell us about him, the more I think you are coming to realise what a screwed up, warped individual he is. And the more, I hope, you are coming to realise he has to go.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 25-Jun-13 17:52:19

Fredd. sad

Sending you cyber strength as well.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 17:53:53

Where there is overt, sustained infidelity coupled with no remorse there is often a background of abuse too, IMO

I believe cheating on someone is abusing them...their trust, their self respect, their image of their own life

Not such a big leap that someone who does this and expects to walk right back in like nothing happened is also a common-or-garden abuser

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 25-Jun-13 18:05:31

Oh OP, he sounds even worse now - an abuser as well as a cheater sad

There is no hope at all - protect yourself and DC by making plans to leave.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 18:10:37

Yes, I firmly believe infidelity is abuse. I asked him why he and OW didn't just arrange to have me shot (we live in that kind of country) because it would have hurt less.

Squirrel away Alpha, squirrel. Take as much ££ as you can get away with. Open a bank a/c where he can't see it, or hide the money under a floor board somewhere.

You will do things when you are ready. If pretending you are get over it is what you need to get him off your back, you do that.

I am a firm believer that people will do things when they are ready and able. Women DO know what they are doing and what they need to do, and we need to respect their timetable and let them ruminate out loud.

Fredd - lived your life. It hurts!

OctopusPete8 Tue 25-Jun-13 18:15:08

I wouldn't waste the time or money,

How did you find out BTW?

CinnamonAddict Tue 25-Jun-13 18:36:38

Bloody hell, OP,
I wouldn't think twice with this new information.
Throwing things in your direction when you feed the LO?
Get away from this class A Arsehole asap.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 25-Jun-13 18:41:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 18:45:22

^ Does throwing things near you when you are feeding the baby and calling you a cunt in front of the DC count as DV?^

Scratch everything I've said.

LTB, without a doubt.

He hates women. He really does.

cannotfuckingbelievethis Tue 25-Jun-13 18:53:48

Part of me is reading this thread and actually hoping it's a wind up...

OP, leave, leave, leave. Get out now and go to any friend or family member that will have you.

ImperialBlether Tue 25-Jun-13 19:11:14

OP, he's done such a number on you that you didn't consider telling us about his verbal abuse and throwing techniques in the original OP. Have you normalised this?

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 19:19:41

He threw a remote control at the wall to the left of where I was sitting (not at me - in my direction) within a week of me finding out. He called me a fucking cunt last week during an argument when DC2 and DC3 were in the room. And yes ryan - sadly all too real.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 19:20:49

Why did you think this was ok ?

Phalenopsis Tue 25-Jun-13 19:24:10

So he's abusive and a serial adulterer?

What else is there to say alphacourse? You know what to do and sharpish by the sounds of it.

TurnipCake Tue 25-Jun-13 19:41:37

Alpha, it doesn't matter if it was at you in your direction, he was clearly angry at you for finding out.

How long will it be before your children are old enough to copy what he says and does towards you?

There's nothing else to say, you cannot stay, it will grind you down to a shadow of yourself.

Twattergy Tue 25-Jun-13 19:53:52

This man does not deserve you. The only way he might one day conceivably learn the lesson he needs to, is for you to end the relationship. And to never get back together with him.
He doesn't deserve forgiveness. You don't owe him that. Children deserve unconditional love, not partners. Your love should be given on the condition of respect, support, fidelity and honesty. He's lost the right to receive your love.

YellowTulips Tue 25-Jun-13 19:55:14

@ Alpha - the more you post the more you answer your own question.
Yes you could forgive, but why the hell should you? What will it cost you to "move forward" with him? What price will you pay? Your self respect, dignity, opportunity for a real love, your mental health? These are the questions you need to answer.

@Fred - I think you have already started to answer some of those questions and realised your OH is an oxygen thief. The only thing holding you back now is you.

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 20:05:04

Alpha, my H was a right pig for what he did, but he never, ever has called me names like that or thrown things at me.

Really, it is quite hard enough without that streak of personality to deal with too.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 20:19:46

Yes - he sounds quite a catch now I have read it all in black and white. Grrr - it is such a lot to get my head around. So much has changed about what I thought we had v. The reality.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 20:21:45

He is also uber moody. And quick to take offense. And charming. And loving. And affectionate. Grrrrrrrrrr

He's not even a bit sorry. He abuses you physically and verbally because you caught him. Come on! Do you want that for your life? He's an abusive, cheating fuckhead and he will never change.

FrequentFlyerRandomDent Tue 25-Jun-13 20:24:42

OP, I am sorry. His actions show no love. Contempt and anger rather.

Please protect yourself and the children first.

Call WA and do speak to people in RL. You need support.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 20:27:24

You are going to stay with him, aren't you ?

Someone in this much denial is nowhere near ready to leave a relationship.

I hope one day you wake up.

Locketjuice Tue 25-Jun-13 20:35:40

How can you forgive something like that? I'm genuinely asking as I know I never could

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 20:36:45

AF, remember it takes time. wink

Alpha will do things at exactly the pace she needs to do it. I have great faith in her.

It is VERY hard to get your head round the fact that he is not who you thought he was. God, that is hard.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 20:40:34

I know, WW ( wink back atcha ). But Op does need to be honest with herself, if not with us.

Wellwobbly Tue 25-Jun-13 20:44:44

AF - you had my back when I didn't even know it needed having.

flowers

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 20:52:39

I know I did, WW and you wouldn't bloody listen either smile

ProphetOfDoom Tue 25-Jun-13 21:02:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 21:29:22

SM, they DO.

It is a fair shock to them when you suss that out.

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 21:31:35

Alpha it may help you to know that my H in counselling agreed with his counsellor that he used wit in order to divert and manipulate. And charm to get his own way.

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 21:48:01

We all suspect he is a little adhd - he runs at a million miles per hour with his business and multi tasks like a wizard. He is all bullshit and bravado and front though. Always an eye on the next big deal etc.

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 21:59:39

No, love, I think you have the armchair diagnosis all wrong

if we are talking amateur psychiatry, I would label him a narcissist

alphacourse Tue 25-Jun-13 22:04:36

I totally agree - definitely a narcissist. Ex husband was too. My mum has certain traits (everything/every story always becomes about her). Hmmmmm - what does that say about me though?!

AnyFucker Tue 25-Jun-13 22:05:37

It says that the people around you are dysfunctional. What else ? It's why this situation is jarring for you, because it is not normal

onefewernow Tue 25-Jun-13 22:14:07

It says that you would do well to get some counselling to work out how to cure your attraction to them.

You can see where it came from, but you really need to protect yourself from it.

The only thing I really gained from H's infidelity was an understanding about myself and a well hidden desire for approval and fixing others.

It can be unlearned.

I cringe when I read my early 2012 thread!

ProphetOfDoom Tue 25-Jun-13 22:16:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

No, and you shouldnt.

mummytime Fri 28-Jun-13 09:16:32

What it says about you is that once you have kicked him into touch, please do something like The freedom Programme before getting into a relationship again.

alphacourse Fri 28-Jun-13 09:47:18

Thank you mummytime - I haven't heard of that, but will look into it. It is all just so damned hard! It has made me ill - how can somebody live a lie for so long!

Change2013 Fri 28-Jun-13 13:42:06

Hi Alphacourse, that is a question I wonder about too. I can't understand how my ex could live such a massive lie. Some people seem to be able to compartmentalise their lives.

After I found out some of the truth I really felt traumatised by the depth of the betrayal. It's taken 18 months for me to feel like I'm putting my life back together again and along with that came the realisation that my ex was an abusive bully. I did the online Freedom programme which I found helpful. Also had almost a year of individual counselling.

I hope you are ok.

alphacourse Fri 28-Jun-13 15:59:32

Thank you. I am feeling much stronger this week. It will be 11 weeks tomorrow since I found out. I have waited for the initial shock to go and see what is left. I realise that I don't resapect him and that he is a disappointment of a man. I keep waiting to see if he will magically pull something out of the bag that will show me the man he CAN be. I'm bored of the wait now I think.

Wellwobbly Fri 28-Jun-13 17:20:24

Schmalz:

but where it counts, on matters of trust, loyalty, fidelity and respect your OH has badly let you down

brilliant post. That is it, in a nutshell, isn't it?

ProphetOfDoom Fri 28-Jun-13 23:56:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wellwobbly Sat 29-Jun-13 07:33:22

Alpha, it is all a process. Whilst MN is 'right' when they say this behaviour is not conducive to a healthy r, the person being not treated well has to get there in their own time. It is a slow whirring of the mental and emotional cogs, to incorporate the new reality, find out what 'we' do to facilitate it, decide where 'our' line is - and prepare for a new life!

I was saying to the OW in the momentous thread, (because her 'why' is actually the same as my 'why' - WHY did we choose this/put up with it?), that coming to a slow realisation takes time. First you are blind. Then it hurts. Then that hurt moves you.

I know for certain that I was taught as a child 'your needs are very deeply inconvenient, have no needs!' and my parents were v neglectful. So when my H started treating me as 'less than' there was no 'me' to be outraged and resist. I had been trained years back. Small everday example: instead of holding my hand in town, he would hold Ds hand and I would trot along 3 paces behind - and not once would he look back or acknowledge my existence. So huge message of disrespect and uncaring that I would say to myself our marital message 'oh, he is right to love D' - without realising that he was in fact making the children feel very unsafe because we SHOULD have been a loving unit over them, and he was modelling disrespect to women to them.

When I went in shattered IC listened to me for 1/2 and hour and then said 'you do realise his affair is the final, unacceptably hurtful part of a PATTERN? It has taken me 4 years to 'get' this.

when I saw the email to OW on 12 March 2013 (finding her existence was 10 May 2009), sent the day before he told me how much he regretted his affair, that was really the only moment for me when I stopped thinking about conflicting loyalties (kids, assets, his beautiful brokenness [chumplady.com]) and said to myself clearly: if you stay now, you are actively participating in your own mistreatment [and nobody is to blame for that but you].

I have been told that immature men like this (sorry) 'split' women into madonnas and whores, and I absolutely know this has happened to me and it happened at the birth of our first. I became 'Mummy' and housewife, and his OW is beautiful, caring, exotic, wondrous feminine.

Wellwobbly Sat 29-Jun-13 07:34:17

PS whilst you are processing, and it might take years, PLEASE start squirrelling money NOW. The only urgent advice I am going to give you!

Chubfuddler Sat 29-Jun-13 07:53:04

This is an amazing thread. OP if you can work through the thoughts here, asking yourself the questions posed here, and as Hec said own your decision you will have saved yourself a fucking fortune in therapy. And hopefully a well of tears too.

My view, FWIW is that he slmost certainly can't change, but that's irrelevant because what he has done is so bad I couldn't forgive it anyway.

Chubfuddler Sat 29-Jun-13 08:03:53

Also just to draw out one issue lots of people have touched on but perhaps haven't fully explained (not a criticism and I may have over looked it) - his self loathing as a red flag.

In some ways you may be wondering why that is a red flag - he's done hateful things, he should hate himself. But that's not the end of it. He hates himself and he knows you love him. He considers himself contemptible and low, he is ashamed of himself. And yet that is a person you have loved.

He's got a very low opinion of himself. But nowhere near as low as his opinion of you, someone who can love the hateful mess he has become. He thinks you must be a total loser and ergo, you deserve no better than he has meted out.

alphacourse Sat 29-Jun-13 14:03:54

Thank you so much for your posts. I am reading and re-reading them. I have come a long way since first posting 11 weeks ago today under the name Bejesus. I have got my first counselling session in half an hour. I am nervous, but also so so ready for it. It took a good 2 weeks for the initial shock to go. Then I was up and down, sobbing one minute and blocking it out the next. This week I feel different though. Ambivalent perhaps? Certainly much stronger. Collapsing and fitting last weekend seemed to be a turning point. Wish me luck with my appointment (if he returns from tennis in time to look after DC2 and DC3!).

Chubfuddler Sat 29-Jun-13 14:28:57

You mentioned some DV incidents alpha, I really strongly advise you not to enter couples counselling with this man, abusers (and he is an abuser) use counselling as an extension of their abuse. Men like your partner are superficially charming and can be very manipulative. Ensure counselling is your safe space, not his.

alphacourse Sat 29-Jun-13 16:27:08

I agree - he is manipulative. This was MY counselling session. It was only the assessment, but was with a psychologist and was good! I enjoyed it - and it has given me some thoughts for self reflection.

Chubfuddler Sat 29-Jun-13 16:28:26

Yes I saw you said it was a session for you,but you mentioned couples counselling in an earlier post and I really wanted to advise against that.

Chubfuddler Sat 29-Jun-13 16:29:09

I'm glad you got something out of it. Keep strong.

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 20:14:23

Please hold my hand - he has gone. I am sobbing

Doha Mon 01-Jul-13 20:35:03

hand holding --not much useful advice but will be here if you want to talk.
Tell us what happened tonight?

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 20:42:41

I am sorry, love.

Be brave. You will get over this and go on to have a better life. I promise you this x

Chubfuddler Mon 01-Jul-13 20:45:35

This is a good thing. Believe it or not this is the beginning of a new, peaceful life for you, one in which you don't have to feel the last vestige of self respect slide away as someone you once loved looks you straight in the eye and lies through their teeth.

You're in shock and you're mourning the relationship you wanted to have. He can still be a good father to your children but he's a lousy partner and you genuinely don't need him.

Stay strong.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 21:00:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 21:59:30

Thank you.

Sobbing.

I gave him this evening to talk, to lay it all on the table. He want in the right frame of mind to talk. I showed him the door. I have to let go of what I thought I had. Of the man I thought he was. He will try and talk tomorrow. I have to be strong. God I am gutted

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:04:00

He hasn't been the man you thought he was for some time

perhaps he never was, and never could be sad

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:04:46

I know - and that is so so sad. That is what is hard. the reality v. what i th9ough we had

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:09:55

I saw on his ipad a few months ago that he had left his facebook open. Obviously my subconscious told me to check. I saw a list of people he had blocked. This week I asked him who was blocked and why. was wanting to see if he could be honest, and be transparent, and tell me the truth. He said he would send me a screen shot. He didn't - instead he sent me a list. I questioned why he didn't send me a screenshot or his password as that would have been easiest? I confronted him about the discrepancy. He said that he had unblocked people to match what he had told me. Said that he had emailed them but hadn't met them. Said that he had edited them to save all my questions. Stupid man. All I wanted was for him to show that he was telling the truth. I didn't care who was on there _ just some sign that he is being honest at last.. Gutted.

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:13:28

Missed out the bit in the middle when he gave me his password! I also checked his messages. He met up with a girl in 2010 for coffee. He had been on a couple of dates with him before we met and they had stayed in contact. He blocked her at some point after they met.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 22:26:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:27:16

we aren't married

ProphetOfDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 22:30:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:30:13

good, makes it less complicated to completely detach yourself from this inadequate individual

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:33:51

I think that he thinks he can come back tomorrow and talk. I was prepared to talk this evening. I have to draw a line in the sand. He had the opportunity to talk - he chose not to.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:39:09

Of course he thinks he can talk when he feels like it

I hope you make it crystal clear that he had his chance and he blew it

You do realise he was simply playing for more time to get his lies to tally up, don't you ?

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:43:15

i do - and it kills me

Chubfuddler Mon 01-Jul-13 22:43:49

And when he decides he has got his lies prepared and wants to talk, if you refuse at that point he will accuse you of throwing the relationship away. Oh yes. It will be your fault.

Don't listen.

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 22:43:57

it is more about control. at his pace. when he is ready.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 22:53:26

Indeed.

Except you have taken back the control. Which hurts like fuck right now but long term, your self respect will thank you for it

ProphetOfDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 22:54:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 01-Jul-13 22:55:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Catheric Mon 01-Jul-13 22:56:54

You've got the love and support of everyone who knows you. We're here for you to scream at, cry at, even smash things with if it'll help. And if you need any help with the DCs.

fengirl1 Mon 01-Jul-13 23:07:44

Alpha, stay strong. I know it hurts, but he will never be able to give you all of the details, or explain himself honestly, because that would involve admitting that he has done wrong. It will be far easier to blame you, or a breakdown, or a mid-life crisis etc, etc. I was stupid enough to ASK my xh to come back after an affair. He did it again, never having admitted blame the first time around. hmm

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 23:41:22

Thank you. I am so so disappointed that he dint take this opportunity to tell the truth. I dont care who the women were that he had blocked I just wanted him to be man enough to tell me the truth. It doesn seem bizerre that he is still hiding things. Things CAN'T get any worse! At least if he
was being honest it would be one building block, But he even fucked that up :-( I have my lovely SIL here for support. I wasn't sure she would be, and feel bad for that, but she has been amazing. Thank you Catheric. My mum and dad know, but live a few hundred miles away. I have a couple of good RL friends too, who have been amazing and will support me either way, whether I stay or go, which is amazingly lucky.

AnyFucker Mon 01-Jul-13 23:42:51

no, alpha, you have amazing support because you are deserving of it

him, not so much

alphacourse Mon 01-Jul-13 23:55:03

I know I am lucky. I have a supportive family, some good friends and my children he has none of those things. And I feel sad for him, then annoyed with myself for feeling sad for him! I am an EI woman. If he had been honest and open, I probably (i think) could have supported him. He is so self destructive. But he isn't destructing me. I WILL be pressing send on applications tomorrow. I am o9n SMP at the minute, so will need some help with housing benefit etc until September. When I met him I owned a house, and was a DH of a secondary school. I have post grad qualifications. I stopped working as I was in a wheelchair with SPD when pregnant with DC2 (when he left me over night to be balls deep in some random). I now work for his company. I have to change that to get my power back. I will apply for housing benefit and tax credit tomorrow. I will start to apply for jobs for September.

alphacourse Tue 02-Jul-13 00:10:52

Why why why couldn't he tell me the truth?! Were these blocked women on FB just email encounters as he said?

AnyFucker Tue 02-Jul-13 00:15:07

Who knows ?

You know he has lied and you know you cannot trust him

there is no more you need to know now

alphacourse Tue 02-Jul-13 00:28:44

So why do I thirst for the truth? To know what was going on whilst I was oblivious? What is wrong with me that I crave knowing the truth about how much deceit there was?

AnyFucker Tue 02-Jul-13 00:35:10

There is nothing wrong with you, it is a human response

But it won't help you, because he will never supply that closure for you

The best thing is to allow yourself to move on from it, and be kind to yourself

Time will help, but you must totally detach from him. He cannot (or will not) give you what you think you need

Catheric Tue 02-Jul-13 10:19:26

In the absence of a sister I hope a SIL will help with the rl support you need right now {{hugs}}

Mosman Tue 02-Jul-13 10:26:48

The truth is over rated, I've had every last fucking detail of truth and it hasn't helped - I've seen her bedroom where they fucked (right move - not peering through windows), spoken to the tarts involved for their version of events - mostly bullshit, it doesn't help.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 02-Jul-13 10:48:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumat39 Thu 18-Jul-13 19:44:07

Hello alphacourse.
I was following you on the other thread and when that went, I was a bit worried and have thought of you often. I randomly came across this thread and realised it was you. Just wanted to say I think you're doing amazingly well, and I'm sorry to hear that all this 'D' P related stress is making you unwell.

FWIW, i think it's brilliant how you've had the clarity of mind to allow yourself the time to actually decide what you want.

Women always seem to shoulder the responsibility of everything, whilst these so called men, take on none. Your DC are very lucky that they have you as a role model!

I really hope that whatever you decide to do, that you do it with yourself and your DC in mind. We all only have one life. If he is determined to fuck up his own life that doesn't mean that he has to do the same to yours and your Dc's.

I really hope you and your dc can move on from this and be really truly happy. You deserve nothing less.

Xxx

alphacourse Fri 19-Jul-13 08:10:59

Thank you so much! I moved my original thread to the quiet place, and didn't realise they got deleted after 30 days! I am in a calmer place now. It is difficult as I am not allowed to drive for 6 months due to the seizure I had a few weeks ago. They said it was probably induced by stress and lack of sleep. An extra guilt for him to bear. He is/was addicted to the thrill of the chase and the attention. Silly man - filling that void inside him in that was can only offer temporary relief and then he would feel even worse about himself. It is hard as I am naturally empathetic and have high EI. He has zero! But it isn't my job to mend him. Only he can do that.

He's a con-man, pure and simple. He conned you into believing he was a devoted father/husband-to-be. He's like a cowboy builder who built your dream home, when actually it's full of rot. I couldn't forgive that, even if I wanted to.

alphacourse Fri 19-Jul-13 08:54:46

Yes, that is true. But it is also true that he is ill - this need for attention/admiration is because there is something mentally wrong with him. He is getting help. I just need to work out whether the 'healed' him is somebody I would still want.

alphacourse Fri 19-Jul-13 09:53:53

It is all such a clusterfuck. What delays the process is his lack of ability to communicate. It makes everything move so slowly. It is so frustrating.

mumat39 Fri 19-Jul-13 09:55:10

Hello again.

Gosh, not being able to drive for 6 months must be difficult. It's funny isn't it, all of this is his doing, yet you again are the one that has to suffer the consequences.

You sound amazing, really. I consider myself empathetic, but I don't think I could be quite so kind and rational of any indiscretions. If your ''D' P really does have an addiction, then I hope that he can get treated for it. It must be difficult with sex though, because, everywhere we go, we are bombarded by sexual images. It's difficult to just 'stop' I imagine. He really must want to stop for himself to have any chance of overcoming it.

I really hope that your P can sort himself out and get the help he needs, and that he also understands what he has done.

I hope you're feeling much better now. Xxx thanks

CocktailQueen Fri 19-Jul-13 10:01:26

Right. I think there are two types of affairs. One: where you fall in love with the new person and feel a real connection with them. You have one affair but do not do it regularly. Two: where you just want a buzz/you are a serial cheat/to avoid problems in your relationship.

Your h cheated with several women when you were at your most vulnerable. He also has been able to live with his guilt (if he felt any!) because he didn't tell you until he was forced to.

Leave him. He will NOT change. Bastard.

alphacourse Fri 19-Jul-13 11:13:07

I think he compartmentalised well. He certainly feels ashamed and embarrassed. He does want to change, and is unhappy with who he is. BUT that doesn't undo what he has done does it. These are CHOICES that he made. It isn't easy to just leave. I have 2 very small children and one youngster too. It will be hard to find a house in my position. I have looked at 2, but the owners went for other tenants as I have 3 children so were worried about wear and tear.

alphacourse Fri 19-Jul-13 20:23:17

Weirdly, one of the things which stings most is that he was online messaging these women on the affair site whilst I was in the room with him.

mumat39 Sat 20-Jul-13 01:17:20

Alpha, no wonder that stings. That's horrible!

It's almost like he didn't even realise just how wrong that is. Is that part of the addiction behaviour? I always assumed addicts hid whatever it was that was their fix.

It's such a shame, as when things like this come out, you can slowly start to unpick every part of n your life with that person, and eventually you are left with alot of doubt and many memories tarnished by either the truth or because of the lack the truth, if that makes sense.

I hope you've had a lovely weekend and that you have a lovely weekend.

Xxx

TDada Sat 20-Jul-13 07:57:55

alpha- what a shame that your DP threw it all away and then didn't recognise that you were going to give him another chance.......you are strong supportive partner....and sound like a fabulous person. I hope that you find peace and happiness soon as you deserve it.

alphacourse Sun 21-Jul-13 10:01:17

Thank you so much. I certainly can't stay, or even think about trying to fix things if he wont/cant actually TALK about it can I. I am just so so disappointed in him. He has let us down so badly, and acted so selfishly. We didn't have issues in our relationship. What a waste. How could he do this? The impact on our DC is HUGE. It is so unfair. What a complete twat :-(

Wellwobbly Sun 21-Jul-13 10:19:38

What delays the process is his lack of ability to communicate.

He doesn't want to. To do that would require seeing you as an equal person, self-reflection and HUMILITY. He just wants you to STFU and get back into providing him with a family.

If you truly truly want to understand the mind workings of your non-communicative partner, please visit www.chumplady.com. Direct, and terrifyingly accurate.

And have you started squirrelling money? THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. My lawyer's retainer was £5,000.

Start on a long term plan Alpha. OK you are going to be there for at least 6 months if not years whilst you get your head round this and him? So, make this time work for you. £££££££, training, jobs. And birth control, sorry to be cynical.

alphacourse Sun 21-Jul-13 11:07:41

I agree - thank you. All of his family lack the ability to communicate effectively. His first line of defense is attack, so it is very slow to talk about anything - he has managed an hour at a time so far, with usually a week between chats. It is too frustrating. I have read chumplady - so so accurate. I won't need a lawyer as we aren't married, and rent our home. I own a 2 bed flat in another town, so am especially pleased that he can have access to that! I saw an estate agent there last week and have it on the market to let it out. It won't bring in a lot of money - £400pcm but I will put that into DD1s bank account each month so it is safe. I have post grad qualifications already and was deputy head of a secondary school before I had DC2, so I could always do supply teaching etc. I can't manage to carry on like this with not talking about it with him. I sent him a letter last Monday and Thursday saying how frustrated I am about it, and that if he cant/wont talk then there is NO way forwards. I explained that even if he DOES talk, there are no promises on my side, but is he doesn't talk then I have to go. I don't want to talk all night every night - that would be too draining. But more than an hour every week or so. Or via email if that is easier for him. He has brought a few receipts home from 2011 to show me dates. But STILL no phone records of receipts from more recent liaisons. I owe myself more than to just sit and wait and wait. HE owes me more. I'm just so sad and heartbroken.

alphacourse Sun 21-Jul-13 19:58:54

I can't carry on like this. I can't just pretend thing are normal. The effort is destroying me.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 21-Jul-13 20:27:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Sun 21-Jul-13 21:16:45

Yes - that sounds like a good plan. He left for 2 weeks a while ago, but then I had the seizure and can't drive. He is back and takes DC1 to school as that is a fair few miles away. She finishes on wed though. I think he would refuse to leave, saying that we have a spare double bedroom so the expense of somewhere else or a hotel would be a waste?

ProphetOfDoom Sun 21-Jul-13 21:25:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumat39 Sun 21-Jul-13 21:51:23

Oh alpha, I'm sending you a massive (((hug))).

You do deserve better.

I think if can separate, for a while or permanently, you will get the space that you need. He might then realise that he has actually lost you. I think whilst you stay he can avoid facing up to it.

Also, if he gets help, and can talk to you, then who knows, you may feel like giving it another shot. In the meantime, you can focus your energy on yourself and your dc.

It's awful how you're feeling, but I hope that with space you can start to heal.

And remember whatever decisions you make now, they don't have to be permanent. You can only deal with now, and now you really must start putting yourself first.

Look after yourself, eat, sleep, and be kind to yourself.

Lots of love to you and your dc. Xxx

mumat39 Sun 21-Jul-13 21:53:42

Sorry alpha. I started that post at 11 something this morning and have only just finished it. Going back to read other replies now.

alphacourse Mon 22-Jul-13 12:32:34

Thank you for holding my hand. I went to have a look at a house this morning. It is a bit too far to walk to school, which I will have to do until xmas because of the seizure. He can't afford to rent here (2.7pcm) and somewhere for himself, so we will both have to move. I told him last night that I'd had enough of waiting for him to talk. He said we would chat tonight after his therapy sessiom this morning. He sent a text to me after the session saying that they had discussed that he "wanted to start trying to make some changes in my behaviour and thinking pattern. Will make some notes on what we said so can communicate to you." Also asked me to buy Patrick Carnes book from amazon.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 22-Jul-13 12:51:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Sun 04-Aug-13 23:37:41

I told him last Monday that it is over. He is still here in the spare room whilst he is looking for a flat. Is he likely to actually go? How do I make him go? The longer he stays here the more frustrated with him I am becoming and the more I am starting to dislike him. I sit in my room each evening and sob. I hold it together in front of him - he doesn't need to see my pain. But God, I could do with a hug. The pain comes in waves. Some days I am normal, others I am crushed. He is so so very selfish - he just doesn't get it at all. Please hold my hand again.

3HotCrossBuns Mon 05-Aug-13 00:24:48

Oh dear AlphaCourse I'm sorry to hear things have got to this stage but the positive is that you have at least made a decision about your relationship. I don't know how you get him to actually leave. I hope he goes soon though for your own sake and so you can start moving forwards. It's going to be hard but I'm impressed at your strength at holding it together in front of him. You have been an amazing, brave lady to give him a chance in the first place - silly arse has squandered it - so you can hold your head high. Good luck and keep strong in the next stage of getting him out.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 01:20:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumat39 Mon 05-Aug-13 01:29:13

Oh alphacourse. Sending you a virtual (((hug))) and some thanks.

It sounds tough at the moment. Hopefully he'll find something soon and then you can have the space you need to think and just be for a while, itms.

I've been checking your thread everyday since the last post but for some reason I was hoping that no posts meant that you were ok.

I'm sorry. I realise I should have posted before. I mostly lurk as I never know what to say, but I'm here if you need to 'talk'.

I hope your dc are okay, and that they're able to give you some lovely cuddles.

Look after yourself, and be kind to yourself. Xxx

mousebacon Mon 05-Aug-13 08:18:25

Just read the full thread.

You have done the right thing. You would never have trusted him again. The relationship you thought you had was only ever a mirage.

You are going to be so much happier without him, without the stress and worry and second guessing everything.

Wishing you lots of luck as you move on without him.

flowers

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 09:24:56

Thank you so much. Sorry I didn't reply earlier - had a really bad night with the 6 month old. He says he will move out and is looking at rightmove lots...but not actually DOING anything. We rent here and it is really expensive (£2.7kpcm). He keeps saying "trial separation". My counsellor told me to think of him as somebody who is ill - he has an illness (mental). BUT - how he is acting now is the measure of what kind of man he is. It is still all about HIM and his pain, and how HE is struggling etc. NOTHING about me. He hasn't helped me with my pain at all! It will hurt less with him not being here. I can stop being so disappointed in his lack of empathy if I'm not faced with it daily. He keeps wanting to do family things and take me out for dinner etc. He is just doing everything so wrong!

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 10:54:40

It really is like a bereavement isn't it? I am sobbing for what I thought I had. For the family my children had. It is all such a massive shift in my reality that it floors me. I am 5ft 9in and now a size 6. I have to go to Kings in a couple of weeks for some 3 hour tests because of the seizure the stress brought on. I feel crushed and so alone, even when people are here. It will feel better once he has gone won't it? The pain?

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 10:55:59

I just screamed at the children to leave me alone. I have no space and no break.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 10:59:11

I want to run away from it all - and keep running and running. My life seems so small - I'm not allowed to drive for 6 months. He sold the car. My youngest is still breastfeeding so I can't even go anywhere for more than a couple of hours on my own. I feel so trapped.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 05-Aug-13 11:05:53

sad

Do you have real life help? Please confide in friends/family - you really need outside support.

Have you seen a GP to see if you can get help e.g ADs?

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 05-Aug-13 11:07:12

Any chance of getting him to kip on a friend's sofa?

Alternatively leave the DC with him and go out for a few hours on your own.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 11:12:20

My parents live 4 hours away. My SIL has 2 v small children herself. My best friend is on holiday for 2 weeks. He went out on fri night and slept in until 1pm on sat. He played golf yesterday 8-6. He works so I can't go out on my own. He has no friends to kip on their sofas! He has no contact with his family and ZERO friends. I don't think I am depressed - just bereaved?

Mosman Mon 05-Aug-13 11:15:06

He can sleep in the sodding car, pick his shit up and put it on the driveway is my advice. It is better once they've gone, truly it is.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 05-Aug-13 11:29:33

Have you told your parents though? Talking on the phone is better than nothing.

Why are you letting him go out to play and sleep in? No wonder you are feeling like this.

Pack his stuff in bin bags and tell him he has to pick these by up a certain time before you leave these on the drive. That will focus his flat hunt - in the meantime its not your problem where he sleeps and tough luck if he has nowhere except his car.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 11:45:49

I have told them. It is hard talking on the phone with 2 smallies though, and my 8 year old hears everything with her Super Gran hearing! I hate confrontations with him - he gets so angry and shouty. It is like he is angry with me for finding out. He says not - just that he is angry with himself. But he lashes out. We need to be able to communicate because of the children. I'm scared that if I just tell him to go anywhere else whilst he is sorting somewhere more permanant it will make things worse?

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 11:49:37

I'm scared of my anger too now though. It has kicked in. If he starts ranting at ne I am afraid of losing control with him.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 05-Aug-13 11:49:41

His behaviour tells you everything you need to know about how committed he is.

Rebuilding a marriage will be impossible the way things are going.

I hope you are not doing his washing, cooking, shopping etc.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 12:02:19

He does the shopping now that I don't have a car. He also does the cooking unless it is a heating m&s type thing. I haven't been doing his ironing. I think he is committed to wanting to work things out - he just has NO IDEA how to do it. He doesn't have the comminucation skills at all. He wants it to all go away. It won't.

middleeasternpromise Mon 05-Aug-13 12:22:50

Hi Alpha

I read your original posts and just caught up with where you are now. What I have to say is that although it doesnt feel it, you are doing amazingly well. Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this sort of situation - you didn't build this relationship overnight and you wont leave it that quickly either. I know everyone has advised you LTB and you sound like you are and probably will. But you do need to walk the path. Annoying as it is having him under your nose it is also building your decision making basis. You are torn by the recognition that this is a very damaged person you are dealing with and sometimes you want to try and help him. Rest assured when he knows hes out the door for good theres a very good chance he could turn very nasty indeed - so pace yourself. You are not going to be able to cut your ties with this man because of the children, therefore you have a complicated path. But everything you say you have done is absolutely the right way to do it from my experience. I know it doesnt feel like that but that is because this is emotionally very hard work. Also you have the physical demands of caring for the 3 children and the stress of uncertainty about the future.

You will get through this but you need to make your plan a bit longer to extricate yourself carefully and alongside the needs of the kids. When he isnt physically there, yes it will be a bit easier because you can set up your own routine and wont have the stress of his comings and goings. But he could get more difficult once gone and that is also stressful. Someone with your intelligence, needs to use your wits wisely, you will have to manage him because he cannot/willnot manage himself. I really admire your strength with two small children and another who probably worries about you too much. Please order your priorties and put you first - health; well being and rest. Make sure you keep him busy doing his bit with the children. MEP

Wellwobbly Mon 05-Aug-13 12:31:08

What mental illness did your counsellor say he has?

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 12:46:16

She didn't. She just said that the compulsion was an illness. That he is a narcissist. I don't think he will get angry once he has gone - he is likely to be calmer I think: he was when he went for 2 weeks before hand. The distance helped both of us. I agree that I will have to manage him. It is so hard to get rest with the 2 smallies playing nap relay!

welshharpy Mon 05-Aug-13 13:02:26

Hi Op, seems as though he his standing his ground and has no intention of moving out. Renting somewhere else can be done very quickly if he really meant it and sounds as though he is just hanging around until you decide to give him another chance. You say you have a flat somewhere else, why not go there with your kids or maybe go to your parents? I know it may mean disruption for one of your kids schooling but at least then you would have made the all-important break from him and I am sure your friends would be on hand to help you?

bestsonever Mon 05-Aug-13 13:34:37

I'll risk a flaming and suggest weaning LO off the BF. It takes a lot of energy and bodily reserves to maintain and given current circumstances, the sacrifice to the cause is not going to help you to put on weight or feel in best of health yourself. Just as important is for your LO to have a mother who is fit and well enough to care for her. I don't hold with the BF is best at any cost or any price. I did it for 5-6 months, but then had to return to work so was impractical to continue, nothing wrong with that, no guilt whatsoever. Just suggesting as it is one less stressor on your body and as you know, will improve your independence too.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 05-Aug-13 14:00:16

best - OP may lose the benefits of oxytocin and prolactin, hormones and also she may end up with a stressed baby who does not want to wean,

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 05-Aug-13 14:03:05

best - OP may lose the benefits of oxytocin and prolactin, hormones that is said to help relax the mum and boost the immune system and also she may end up with a stressed baby who does not want to be weaned off the breast.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 14:19:31

I have started getting he to take some of a bottle. She won't take a full feed yet - but I'm trying. It wasn't what I wanted as I fed my last 2 for over a year and a half each, but I have to choose my battles amnd priorities - I agree, and it is good advice. I won't go to my flat - it isn't in a nice place and is a small 2 bed! I have spoken to my friend who works with him and she is going to push him to go soon. He will listen to her I think. I agree that he doesn't want to go as he is scared I won't have him back once he has gone. Also think that he is scared that the reality of what he has done will hit him when he has time alone and has to face it. Have just phoned tax credits and child benefit as can get them now 'single'.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 15:04:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 15:05:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 15:21:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 15:23:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 18:02:28

Thank you. Miricle of miricles - he popped home on his way to look at a flat! Fingers crossed he is finally getting it. He still comes home in a grump - like somehow I am the one in the wrong though!

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 18:15:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 18:21:18

Isn't it just?! I think it is that which is making me most angry! It is so damned unjust!

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 19:17:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 21:17:30

I can relate to that analogy! It is exactly how it is! Good news - he accepted the flat and has agreed to move in on 26 aug, or sooner if they can. He has just taken the book I bought him (How to help your spouce heal after your affair) to the pub lol!

ProphetOfDoom Mon 05-Aug-13 21:32:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 05-Aug-13 21:37:05

God knows - he doesn't have a salary as such - cash deals through the business. He will pay the rent. I will get tax credits, and paid a salary through his business. I can also claim child benefit again and I get £550pcm maintenance for DC1 from ex husband.

mumat39 Mon 05-Aug-13 23:41:43

Hey alphacourse.

Great news about the flat. And the rate at which this year is flying by, it'll be the 26th soon.

I'm sure it's a bittersweet feeling, but all you've ever asked him for was some space and the truth. He can't deal with the truth side of things yet, but at least the space is not too far away.

I'm not sure where you are, but if you like, PM me your details and if your near me, I'd be happy to help out with doing some shopping or driving you to appointments, if it would help. I'm just outside SW London and I hope that doesn't sound too weird.

Anyway, so so pleased that the day ended better than it started. Rings crossed you'll start to feel a bit more like your old self.

Look after yourself. Xxx

mumat39 Mon 05-Aug-13 23:46:16

Rings ??? Fingers crossed! blush

Wellwobbly Tue 06-Aug-13 17:14:15

My H said he read that book, but he didn't.

alphacourse Tue 06-Aug-13 22:09:27

Thank you Mumat - I will pm you tomorrow.

He read half of it last night and thought it was good and relevant etc. Said lots of positive things about it - then messed up by saying how much of what it said was exactly what I have been saying and said when he read it he thought "smug bitch - it was exactly what you have been preaching". He really doesn't engage brain before his mouth. Did a bit of digging today. How would I get a copy of a receipt from a hotel do you think?

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 07-Aug-13 06:54:27

Credit card statements?

Mosman Wed 07-Aug-13 09:08:35

Phoned the hotel that's what i did
Got the room service bill

Wellwobbly Wed 07-Aug-13 09:33:18

"he thought "smug bitch - it was exactly what you have been preaching".
*He really doesn't engage brain before his mouth.*"

NO - HE IS TELLING YOU WHAT HE THINKS FEELS AND BELIEVES. This is the mistake we make: we don't believe them!

He really is this entitled.
He really doesn't think you are as important as he is.
He really doesn't think he should have to think about how you feel.
He really does think relationships are power struggles, and he has to win.
He really does think he must do and say the bare minimum so that you will STFU and leave him to carry on just how he wants.

chumplady.com: you are not the boss of me.

alphacourse Wed 07-Aug-13 10:12:21

In one of his emails to a random he says: I have a family and I love them and will never leave or change that. However, I miss the butterflies, excitement, spontaneous meeting, text messaging etc. It does seem selfish I suppose, but if something missing in my life then never been one to just accept that.

Disect please!

ageofgrandillusion Wed 07-Aug-13 10:41:45

Alpha - you will never even begin to move in in life if you continue to try dissect and analyse what this selfish fuck-wit is thinking. It is completely irrelevant. He isnt ill, mentally or otherise. He is just a selfish, self-important, self-indulgent twat. There are lots of them about and will continue to be so as long as there are people around to indulge them.
To you, all his pointless musings, ramblings, his general unpredictability etc might make him appear interesting or enigmatic. To an outsider looking in, he appears incredibly tiresome and dull - as in, he needs to grow the fuck up. I can imagine he will be the kind of bloke who is dressing in clothes of a man half his age and creeping around young girls when he is in his 50s.
Seriously, why are you wasting your time trying to work out what is going in in this guy's head?

alphacourse Wed 07-Aug-13 10:56:50

Because I have to get my head around who he IS as opposed to who I THOUGHT he was. It is a massive shift in my reality. It is like I have to keep poking the pain for it to feel real if that makes sense?

sassy34264 Wed 07-Aug-13 14:28:26

Hello. I read your thread last night and today. i didn't read the one in your old nn though.

I'm de lurking to help you with the dissecting.

Here is my interpretation.

I have a family and I love them= I'm not capable of loving them in the conventional sense, because I am extremely damaged as a person, but I don't think I am, so therefore it feels like love to me.

....will never leave or change that = why would I? Doh. I am telling you this so that you know I am just interested in sex and nothing else, that way I have the respect and the prestige that having a nice family brings, but I can shag about too. I'm quite astonished that everyone else doesn't do it to be truthful.

However I miss the butterflies, excitement etc. = although I like having a partner, I'm not finding it fills my void.

It does seem selfish I suppose = it doesn't really otherwise I would have said, it is selfish, but I know that others will view it that way, so I'll pretend I realise it is too.

But if something is missing from my life I've never been one to accept that. (This is the clincher for me) = I know what I am doing is wrong. But, I. Don't. Care. I am the most important person in my universe, if I have an itch, I will be scratching it at all cost.

This next bit may sound brutal, but I don't mean it to be, or to be a personal attack. It is meant in all kindness.

I think your need to dissect this, and analyse his behaviour is because you can't get your head around the fact that you have been fooled/conned etc. You describe yourself in good terms regarding looks and intelligence /(which I don't doubt for a second by the way) but I think this is contributing to your incredulity.

How can such a person so highly intelligent and attractive fall for such a fuckwit? Is the question I think you need to have answered.

Unfortunately, the answer you are looking for

ie- he isn't a fuckwit/emotional black hole, he did love me, he can be fixed, it's to do with his childhood-

Isn't out there.

You did just fall for it.

If its any consultation,........I did to.

People consider me attractive, and I have a post graduate qualification too. I don't think they tend to go after easy prey. Otherwise what would be the point/challenge in that?

You are in excellent company if these message boards are anything to go by. wink

Wellwobbly Wed 07-Aug-13 14:37:25

"Because I have to get my head around who he IS as opposed to who I THOUGHT he was. It is a massive shift in my reality. It is like I have to keep poking the pain for it to feel real if that makes sense?"

I absolutely understand this.

Dissection: neatly and surgically done by Sassy. Can't be bettered really, she nailed him to the wall.

Have you read chumplady.com 'the unified theory of cake'? Also ego kibbles.

I haven't got anything decent to add but I am sorry he is treating you like this OP.

You really need to separate yourself from him. If he has done it before he will do it again, because as you have said it is a mental problem and most mental problems can't just be talked through. You will understand it more but it doesn't stop the feelings.

Besides he admits something is missing. It's not your fault, it's his but do you always want him to be thinking inside that he is missing that buzz, even if he isn't doing anything about it? What about he doesn't do it for 2 years. He'll probably think that's long enough for you to have forgot/to stop checking up and he'll probably do it again.

You know it's not right for your kids to grow up knowing you put up with all this crap with him too, don't you? Otherwise you'll be teaching them this is what a relationship dynamic is like and it really isn't - not in a healthy relationship anyway.

I really hope you get the strength to decide that whatever he did no matter how little or how much, it doesn't matter now because you wont take him back, so the details are of little importance. Once you reach that stage you will become stronger. Your kids will help you become stronger too. You are impatient with them because things are in limbo and you have to be kept reminded of him every day. Once you are away from him and your friend is back from holiday see if she can help out a bit, to take the load off a little.

Until then, just keep as calm as you can and know that no matter what he says or how he acts, it's not your fault. He just doesn't see how much self love he has got.

You know what they say about narcissists? They have so much self love, they don't have enough love for anyone else. I think that's very true.

Wishing you the best of luck! smile

ageofgrandillusion Wed 07-Aug-13 15:49:16

His message is a classic shit sandwich btw - does he work in sales by any chance?

"I have a family and I love them and will never leave or change that."
First of all, I need to say some standard bullshit to get you onside.

"However, I miss the butterflies, excitement, spontaneous meeting, text messaging etc."

However, i like shagging around.

"It does seem selfish I suppose,"

It is selfish.

"but if something missing in my life then never been one to just accept that."

My need to have seedy affairs behind the back of my pregnent wife may seem incredibly selfish, unfair, and pathetic. But it's actually something more profound than that. It's actually me showing what a positive, free-spirited, grab-life's-opportunities kind of guy I am.

alphacourse Wed 07-Aug-13 17:06:44

Your replies are making me laugh! They are true! Laughing is a good thing, no? Great deconstructions - thank you. They have helped enormously! He is away tonight. Moving out in 2.5 weeks.....God it's hard!

ageofgrandillusion Wed 07-Aug-13 19:23:18

Hey, laughing is a good thing, tis the best form of therapy.

alphacourse Wed 07-Aug-13 20:46:38

sassy think I love you xxx

alphacourse Wed 07-Aug-13 22:04:40

At the end of the day I know this is about him - they are his issues. He is moving out. I will be fine - this is the worst it will be - it can only get better. But it is shit. Really shit. I know that he has fucked me over - because he could, and he thought he could get away with it. But, God, I do feel sorry for him. That he is such a fuck up. I will have friends, family and the kids....he will have literally nobody. I wish I didn't want his arms around me. I wish I didn't still fancy him so much. What is THAT all about?! I wish I didn't still wamt him. But......life goes on doesn't it? I want what I thought I had - not the reality. The pain comes in waves. I'm ok one minute, but not the next still. For some reason morning are worst. This is not how it was meant to be for me and the children. But if he could do this when things between us were good....when we had an awesome sex life...we were happy..what would he do when things got tough?

3HotCrossBuns Wed 07-Aug-13 22:15:44

Alphacourse - I am pretty much where you are. I don't understand either. And I've stuck through 14 weeks of shit because I still love him and want him still - but its the 'fake' him I want, not the version of himself that has been revealed to me over the last 3 months. It isn't real, none of it was real and that is the hardest bit I think, realising my happy marriage was just a fake. I am still in total disbelief. Anyway you very brave to be dealing with this with a young baby too. I'm not sure I could.

alphacourse Wed 07-Aug-13 22:22:37

I'm sorry you are going through this too - can you send me a link to your thread so I can share in your pain. How are you doing?

3HotCrossBuns Wed 07-Aug-13 23:03:30

Doing badly overall. I think I've had a breakdown over the last week or so sad I've had 2 threads ( so far!) - 1 on contacting the OW and a later one when I'd asked H to leave and I was at crisis point http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1812186-Asked-H-to-leave-in-total-crisis It doesn't make for pretty reading.

Mosman Thu 08-Aug-13 04:02:52

If you want to PM me, I'm six months down the line ... have made plenty of mistakes, ignored good advice but I guess had to learn from my own mistakes. I'm good at listening and hand holding if that helps and being in Australia I'm up when everyone else is in bed.

Wellwobbly Thu 08-Aug-13 04:24:47

Alpha and HCB, thank you for writing what I feel.

I is so shit and I am terrified. The hardest thing is that like you Alpha I see his woundedness and want to be there for him. But it is a void of difficulty, getting nothing back and more hurt and humiliation.

You cannot love someone who has no idea how to love. And letting go and knowing I will be ok in the future is just terrifying.

Gah!

MOS aren't you still with your H?

Mosman Thu 08-Aug-13 09:46:15

Define "with" - no not really, he was still in the house up until earlier this week but I'm now the only name on the lease, have a great job that allows me to mumsnet am buidling up friendhsip groups, dating, the children are settling down.
It's taken six months but I happened to see the texts he was sending to some poor cow he'd met online last week, I cringed but hey that seems to float these idiots boats so let them get on with it.

alphacourse Fri 09-Aug-13 04:54:47

I suppose I need to start thinking about his contact with DC2 and DC3 once he has gone. He is very hands on with DC2 when he is here. DC3 is still breast feeding. Any suggestions?

Mosman Fri 09-Aug-13 06:28:40

I'd let him make the first move personally, see if he calls to ask to see his kids

alphacourse Fri 09-Aug-13 08:25:35

We talked a bit last night - not for long as he got back from tennis at 10pm. Started off badly, but ended OK. He was talking about the number of nights he would have DC2 over night etc. What is a good plan? DC2 is 2 years and 3 months old.

Mosman Fri 09-Aug-13 08:42:25

Yeah when they are five yrs old. Not a chance before IMO where's he going to take them ?

alphacourse Fri 09-Aug-13 09:06:39

He has got a 2 bed flat about 4 miles away. I think he want to have DC2 overnight during the week and also at weekends. Do you know what the guidance on this is? I don't want to use the children as pawns, but don't want to confuse then either.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 09-Aug-13 09:27:57

I think with bf babies, no overnight stays but the 2 years old is probably old enough. The norm is every other weekend plus one mid week meeting.

I would get proper advice though given their ages.

alphacourse Fri 09-Aug-13 09:33:28

Any ideas where I would get proper advice from? So, you think one over night mid week and either over night fri and all day sat or overnight sat and all day sun is OK for the 2 year old?

ProphetOfDoom Fri 09-Aug-13 10:23:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 09-Aug-13 10:30:15

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alphacourse Fri 09-Aug-13 11:04:33

Sadly, I still would have a break as I would have DC1 and DC3. DC1 is from my previous marriage and DC3 is too young - so we are really just talking about DC2 on his own at the minute. So, how about 1 visit midweek (go to park etc) with DC2 and DC3. One midweek over night with DC2. One weekend night and day with DC2. He can see DC3 around these pick up times. Does that sound reasonable?

Mosman Fri 09-Aug-13 11:40:41

Whatever works for you, are you happy with that arrangement ? Wouldn't he want to see DC 1?

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 09-Aug-13 11:48:21
alphacourse Fri 09-Aug-13 11:50:25

His relationship with DC1 used to be excellent. She calls him Daddy. But...it deteriorated after I had DC2. I think they almost hate each other now. It is an issue - a big one.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 09-Aug-13 13:34:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I wouldn't suggest an overnight stay mid-week.
It'll come around all too soon that DC2 will be in nursery or school. So unless 'D'P can do the school/nursery runs then that won't work.
If he can then that's all well and good.
My recent ex, got to see his kids on a Wednesday - getting them home for 7pm and then every other weekend.

alphacourse Sat 10-Aug-13 19:11:56

Sorry _ slightly off tangent....

DP just accused me of locking him out of his iphone. I hadn't touched it - it was in the kids change bag. He asked me if I had tried getting into it. I was confused as part of our deal was that I knew his pin for hus phone and ipad. I had asked him yesterday if he had changed it as I saw him put it in and the sequence looked different. He denied it. So, just now I asked why I would lock him out of his phone if I knew the password. He admitted he had changed it "to see how long it would take for you to try abnd look". Wtaf?! This guy want our separation to be temporary. He wants us to work it out. He is now angry at ME - accusing me of lying about his phone! Grrrrrr! I am so thrown, my retorts have dried up. I just want to scream "ARE YOU MENTAL?!".

ProphetOfDoom Sat 10-Aug-13 19:26:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Sat 10-Aug-13 19:35:39

I know! I am incredulous! He goes in 2 weeks.....am I wrong to be suspicious though? He hasn't shown me the flat etc. I haven't seen any documents either.... Could he be winging it hoping that I chanhe my mind? With stunts like the phone I think he will have a long wait! How on earth would he think that would help? Knob jockey.

alphacourse Sat 10-Aug-13 19:39:52

I think I pointed out to him that IF I had tried to get into his phone, and found that he had changed the password, I would have bowled right over to him and asked wtaf was going on! I wouldn't feel the need to lie about it!

3HotCrossBuns Sat 10-Aug-13 20:22:07

AlphaCourse - I read your update with my mouth open agog!!! His phone should be available to you to look at whenever you damn well please - he doesn't need to know if and when you look. Am mightily pissed off for you!!

alphacourse Sat 10-Aug-13 22:24:35

I know! He said "I am not hiding anything but you may misread banter with clients"

ProphetOfDoom Sun 11-Aug-13 12:48:08

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Viking1 Sun 11-Aug-13 13:01:51

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ProphetOfDoom Sun 11-Aug-13 13:02:39

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alphacourse Sun 11-Aug-13 14:03:54

The thing is, I KNOW he isn't doing anything. I think he is just soooo used to hiding things and being secretive that it makes him really really nervous not to do it anymore, if that makes sense? I think it is a power and control thing. He is doing really well with psychotherapy and addressing why he felt the need to do it. I do believe that he wants to change and he doesn't like what he did or who he became. But changing passwords is a really twatty way of dealing with things when he becomes defensive! Idiot!

ProphetOfDoom Sun 11-Aug-13 14:12:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Sun 11-Aug-13 19:00:15

Thank you so much - I needed that reassurance as he keeps telling me that I have been a loon about it all! I know I haven't. But a second opinion never hurt! He has just asked me what is wrong. I saif that I feel like I am playing Miss Goseberry to his Blackberry today. Then ensues a diabribe about how he has got a business to run, yada yada yada. I said - don't bother asking if you don't want to have an honest answer. I find it rude that he checks his phone when we are talking (even when we have been having serious talks or arguments about "us") or when we are eating. I told him he needs to reassess his boundaries.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 11-Aug-13 19:35:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Sun 11-Aug-13 21:08:50

Thank you for the reassurance. My logic says that checking his phone is pretty pointless - he could delete anything incriminating. Therefore I haven't been checking it very much at all. But I think that I OUGHT to be able to look at it as and when I want. It is the principle I suppose? The fact that h ought to be trying to be as transparent as possible? Or is my logic skewed at the moment?

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 21:11:00

alpha

a relationship should make you feel secure, should support you, should make you feel safe and wanted, should feel easy and require minimal headspace to keep it afloat

is this what you have ?

is this what you should accept ?

is this how you want to live ?

alphacourse Sun 11-Aug-13 23:46:46

That is why it is all such a clusterfuck. It WAS how it was. I did feel secure and safe and wanted. He always seemed sp loyal and protective. It has been a massive shift in my reality. Huge.

AnyOldFucker Sun 11-Aug-13 23:57:03

I am sorry

but you have to live in the now not hanker after how it used to be (easier said than done)

that relationship is gone

you have a new one, and it is shit

ProphetOfDoom Mon 12-Aug-13 12:34:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 12-Aug-13 12:35:51

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alphacourse Mon 12-Aug-13 13:44:39

Thank you. No - we haven't started joint counselling yet. I think we need to start sooner rather than later as we are making a bit of a mess of it on our own! I have contacted a few people but they have no spaces available. Do you think it will help?

SomerzetMun Mon 12-Aug-13 13:53:21

Caught my H of 19 years using the same websites, a deal breaker IMHO.
I am now depressed and dealing with the meltdown of my life but would rather do that than beginning to trust him again. It is up to you if you let him back I know I couldn't
Stay strong for your babies x stay true to yourself

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 14:00:37

That great relationship you thought you had ?

He was seeing other women whilst you were pregnant, you just didn't know it then

now you know it, how can you still say it was "safe and secure"

it was a ticking time bomb

I wouldn't recommend joint counselling, tbh, especially as the risk is you could get one of those Relate-types who advocate "working on the relationship" ie. brushing it under the carpet, rewarding the cheater with more child free time, weekends away, giving him more blow jobs (to paraphrase)

there is nothign wrong with your "relationship" but there is something wrong with him

alphacourse Mon 12-Aug-13 16:17:23

AF - that is the oxymoron isn't it. You are, of course, absolutely right. I just hadn't seen it like that. Bugger. I NEED straight talking. I am too empathetic.

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 17:23:45

Yes, I believe you are

You are looking at this entirely from his POV and if you get a lousy Relate counsellor that will vindicate him even further

Run a mile from any suggestions (whether from yourself, him, friends or a counsellor) that any of this is your fault, or that the relationship was somehow lacking

he was lacking...he put getting cheap sexual kicks over respect for his pregnant wife

the road you are going is giving him an easy ride, which I am sorry to say does not bode well for the chances of him never treating you like some disposable piece of meat again to leave on the side of his plate if he fancies a different kind of snack occasionally

ProphetOfDoom Mon 12-Aug-13 17:39:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 12-Aug-13 17:41:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 12-Aug-13 17:54:15

So how do I find a suitable one? Perhaps it comes down to chatting to them on the phone first? Each one I have contacted is fully booked for eve app anyway at the minute :-(

ProphetOfDoom Mon 12-Aug-13 19:41:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 12-Aug-13 19:49:06

I emailed a few and outlined our problem briefly. 2 people have recommended the same counsellor. A woman who also works at a sex addiction clinic in London. That sounds quite good, as feel she would be less likely to look for 'reasons' in our relationship?

AF - it may read like I'm giving him an easy ride, but I am making him move out. Not for a couple of weeks - I have made him sign a 6 month lease minimum. I have made it clear that he is beyond priviledged that I am even deigning to be in the same room as his disgusting, lying, cheating, pock-ridden arse! I am faking it until I make it!

ProphetOfDoom Mon 12-Aug-13 20:08:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Mon 12-Aug-13 20:23:20

It is worth a try. My stand point at the minute is that I don't want to be with the man he seems to have been. I don't know him, and I don't want him. If he can address his issues, and prove to me that he has changed, then I might be prepared to listen. No promises at all. I might find that my life is easier and calmer without him here. I don't know - I'm just trying to take it one day at a time. Some are OK. Others, not so. I feel like I am trying to guide him!

3HotCrossBuns Mon 12-Aug-13 20:56:48

Alpha - so much of what you post about your feelings really resonates with me. I really empathise - I'm very confused about my feelings for my H, still very attached to what I thought my marriage was etc. My H has also been inconsistent in his responses to me which makes it difficult to decide whether he's remorseful or not. You are a step ahead of me though - I've decided (I think!) that H needs to move out for a few months, not told him that yet! I'm following your thread and supporting you over cyber-space!!

Mixxy Mon 12-Aug-13 21:01:02

Alpha, I'd be a bit weary of the counsellor who also works at the sex addiction clinic. Sex addiction makes your DH and his cheating a medical condition rather than a moral failing, IYSWIM.

AnyOldFucker Mon 12-Aug-13 21:06:53

whaaaat ?

you have been recommended a counsellor that specializes in "sex addiction" ?

really ?

is this the umbrella you and your husband are going to excuse his behaviour beneath ?

you think your husband chased skirt when you were pg because he has an addiction ?

please, alpha, wake up

your husband did it because he felt entitled to, because he wanted some excitement, because his pg wife was not floating his sexual boat, because he is at heart a selfish cheating fucker, because he could

do not countenance anything that does not immediately start to address those issues

and if you come back at us that he had a "difficult childhood" you might just see me spontaneously combust

ageofgrandillusion Mon 12-Aug-13 22:48:29

Didnt i read somewhere recently that the whole sex addiction thing is actually a load of old bollocks?
Alpha - you sound like you have a lot going for you. Why do you think giving it another shot with this vile man is all you are worth?

LoisPuddingLane Mon 12-Aug-13 22:58:12

Old philandering bollocks...

Mosman Mon 12-Aug-13 23:56:47

Spend the money on hairdressers instead it's not that counselling is bollocks its that he doesn't agree he has a problem. It should be him researching, buying the books etc not you and he isn't because he doesn't think there's anything wring with what he did.

Mixxy Tue 13-Aug-13 00:10:27

I agree with Mosman. You are literally managing his affairs.

alphacourse Tue 13-Aug-13 02:34:56

No! I'm not saying that/making excuses for his twattish CHOICES I promise! I just thought she may be less likely to blame ME or US?! Back to the drawing board then! He researched his therapist and also a CBT book. Until now I have told him not to bother with a couples counsellor as I'm not ready.

Mosman Tue 13-Aug-13 02:58:16

No counsellor will blame you or "the marriage" they try to get you both to look at what prompted your own behaviour that led to certain events.
It's good that he is researching his own therapists, that's a massive step in the right direction.
The problem you have when he goes off for counselling alone is you only get one side of the story reported back to you so I would go along even if you sit there in silence.
We fell completely apart because divkhead sat there in the counsellors office and lies through his teeth but of course would never have known that had I not been there. So the tools he was given in the first few sessions which he is sticking to vigorously I have no idea if they are based on the their problems/his feelings or more bullshit.

Mosman Tue 13-Aug-13 03:00:20

Should have said he went to the first three sessions alone. And came back from them the new assertive H who takes no shit from me lol .... Would be happy enough to take money, Childcare, car etc from me though lol

Mixxy Tue 13-Aug-13 03:01:01

I'm not saying you are making excuses for his shitty behavior but I think that the sex addiction counsellor will try to blame his "addiction to sex" (which he doesn't have) and allow him to be the victim of his own libido. Leaving him blameless.

Mosman Tue 13-Aug-13 03:42:04

Mixxy is right, an addiction to sex ? We all have it, the difference is most of us satisfy that need alone or with our partner. Cheating is something completely different it's like a heroin addict saying they aren't guilty of stealing because the money was for the addiction. That may well be the case but they still stole knowing it was wrong and would hurt somebody.
It's really really hard not to want to see the best in the man you love, god knows I have tried but the question always comes back to why wouldn't he do it again ? My stbex cheated on his first wife, lost his house, marriage the lot she never wavered for a moment and even that knowledge and lesson didn't stop him cheating on me. People fall into two categories those that are faithful and those that aren't ime.

alphacourse Tue 13-Aug-13 09:38:05

I don't think he is a sex addict. Neither does he. I do think that getting ego kibbles from messaging people on those sites can become a compulsion though? Not an excuse. How do I get the right counsellor then? Bloody hell! It is all so so tricky.

Mosman Tue 13-Aug-13 10:41:44

That's about lack of self esteem, lack of self control and lack of respect for you and your marriage. Plenty of counsellors around to sort that out, but if still recommend you are present just in case they start going down the " poor didums didn't get enough attention from his mother" route.

Mixxy Tue 13-Aug-13 10:45:08

Maybe try getting a female, non religious counsellor under 40.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 13-Aug-13 11:50:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ageofgrandillusion Tue 13-Aug-13 14:10:11

Alpha, can you see that there is cheating and there is cheating? Cheating is never right but ... some cheating is worst than other cheating. So, couple who have been together years, in a rut, one partner has brief affair with an old flame. Is mortified to be found out. Eventually the couple realise they have a lot to lose, love each other deep down and work through any underlying issues via counselling.
Then there is your situation. Vile man shags around behind wife of pregnant partner - does it get any lower? seriously? - then gets nasty when she dares to pull him up on it. Did you also say he threw something at you too? This guy is horrible, he will always be horrible, stay with him and you will never be happy. I think you need to pull your head out of the sand. I think the counselling thing is just sheer desparation on your part to find a way of justifying making another go of things.
Do you have any good friends who know the full truth? If so, what do they reckon?

ProphetOfDoom Tue 13-Aug-13 19:29:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cutitup Tue 13-Aug-13 20:39:31

Alpha - just wanted to compliment you on your wonderful turn of phrase:

'ego kibbles'

Wonderful!

I have been following your story and wish you the best of luck. With phrases like 'ego kibbles' in your arsenal, I think you will be fine!

Teeb Tue 13-Aug-13 20:47:04

I think one point that has stood out, which is slightly off topic, is when you remarked about your eldest daughter and said 'They almost hate each other now' and you said that was since you had your second child, so at least for a year or more. Are you comfortable with putting this strain on your daughter? I think at some point (pretty soon) you have to put your childrens needs above your own, and certainly above your partners. I can't imagine how horrid it must be for a young girl to feel 'almost hatred' from someone her mother chooses to be with.

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 08:27:31

ageof - you are totally right. There is cheating and there is cheating. I hope things will be clearer for me once he has gone.

matilda you are, as always, spot on. You write exactly how I am feeling. You get it!

teeb their relationship became a bit difficult after DC2 was born. It has deteriorated recently. I was looking into family therapy for the 2 of them when this blew up. I am NOT prepared to damage her for him!

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 08:47:05

cutitup - I can't take responsibility for that phrase! It was stolen from ChumpLady. It is exactly right though isn't it?!

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 09:41:45

I cleared out an old box a couple of days ago. I found a receipt for a hotel where he stayed with OW1. It was from when DC2 was 6 weeks old. When he wrote me a time line of what had happened there was a big gap between March and September where he said he hadn't met anybody. I queried why at the time, and he said we were busy with DC2 etc. But this makes that a lie too as it was in June! I also found a bank statement for the same period. All his other statements are at his office (for expenses - he runs a company). In this statement there were 4 payments in a month to Ashley Maddison (they don't say AM but show up in dollars). That was when DC2 was 6 weeks old too. It seems unlikely to me that he would pay at least £100pcm for these sites over 2 years but have affairs with only 2. I would like to know when this started. He says it was about the time we conceived DC2 - but the statements would confirm this wouldn't they?

Mosman Thu 15-Aug-13 10:23:19

You will never know the truth never. I got the itemised phone bills, the hotel bills, her side if the story. And still I doubt I got the truth.
I wouldn't waste your energy.

3HotCrossBuns Thu 15-Aug-13 10:34:19

I agree with Mosman. I totally understand the desire to get to the bottom of it and to know everything - I tied myself in knots about what H wasn't telling me. Now I have reached a place of accepting that he will never tell me the whole truth - he strenuously sticks to his story but I just shrug and say I know there is more lies in my heart. Makes me indignant (which I quite like actually!). What's done is done and frankly both you and I know more than enough already! Whatever else is out there can only make a very bad situation even worse.

3HotCrossBuns Thu 15-Aug-13 10:34:58

Makes HIM indignant I meant!!

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 11:04:33

3Hot - sorry I haven't replied yet, will do later.

That is the problem when they delete - can you ever get out of the discovery phase? The wanting /needing to find out? If they never tell all, doesn't that mean that they are still showing loyalty to the person they were? Or is it because telling all makes them face up to ho horrible they have been? I have got a quick chat with a counsellor scheduled for lunch time today.

mosman - if you have seen the paper trail what more do you suspect? How do you deal with the not knowing?

Mosman Thu 15-Aug-13 14:10:26

Because he was caught out five years after the first one I have serious doubts nothing went on between instigating affair one and finding number two on his doorstep I just don't believe he'd have just left it to chance there would have been more in between.
How I deal with it is simply not to give a shit any more. Our situations are very very similar and I have been exactly where you are. It gets easier but you will never be the same again, he's broken you two and I don't think it can be fixed, I know we can't.

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 16:03:11

I'm sorry to hear that you have been having a tough time too Mosman. That is rubbish. You are a step ahead of me if you don't give a shit yet. Wish I could fast forward to that stage!

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 19:33:03

His flat has been confirmed. He can move in a week in saturday sad Oh GOD him packing his things is going to be hard. That is only 8 days away! Spoke to the counsellor at lunch time and made an appointment for a week on weds. She sounded excellent. Spoke for 15 mins and I explained I was concerned about her trying to find issues in our relationship etc. She said only a crap counsellor would do that, and if we were to have any chance of being amicable she would need to work with him on full disclosure and addressing his selfishness. Sounds promising! I'm excited about the counselling, but terrified of him going at the same time.

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 19:44:28

God, I'm gutted. What an idiot to throw it all away rather than dealing with his issue when he was first tempted. How weak. How utterly stupid of him.

ProphetOfDoom Thu 15-Aug-13 20:02:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 20:16:44

Yes - he has been the one pushing for it. She is on holiday for Aug but fitted us in due to the urgency. He is disappointed she can't see us sooner.

ageofgrandillusion Thu 15-Aug-13 22:03:02

Too right he's bleeding pushing for it. It's his get out of jail free card.

alphacourse Thu 15-Aug-13 22:30:57

In what way?!

Mosman Fri 16-Aug-13 01:17:19

In that the counsellor will make him confront what he's done, he'll apologise AGAIN and then it's all forgiven isn't it ?
Honestly what can he do to put this right?

pleaseleave Fri 16-Aug-13 04:42:27

I don't understand why counselling is needed at this stage. it's over.
your blue skies are just around the corner

Mosman Fri 16-Aug-13 05:39:00

I think the problem for me was you want ducking answers, there aren't any but the intelligent logical side of you insists there must be.
It's almost like the stages of grief have to he gone through, that for me included anger, denial and eventually the penny drops that he was just a selfish entitled bastard who did it because he wanted to and he could.
The other penny that drops is that you'll never forget it. Maybe push it to the back of your mind, carry on day to day but its always there bubbling away and undermining your security and happiness.

Wellwobbly Fri 16-Aug-13 05:51:23

What an idiot to throw it all away rather than dealing with his issue

Alpha. This is a VERY hard concept to get. Why? Because it is very painful.

He didn't think he was throwing anything away. He wanted both - you keeping his family going, and him getting excitement and thrills. They aren't incompatible in his world! He doesn't have self esteem issues. He REALLY thinks he is better than you.

You are assessing him from the situation you have, which is love and commitment to one person. He does not have that AND NEVER HAS. Yes he loves you in his own way, but it is not the way you see love. You are a presence in his life, a mother symbol. You are not a person. He has no idea how you feel, because he doesn't want to. There is a void inside of him which he fills up with business attention and flirting attention and that is enough for him! Now STFU and get back into the house, and stop that irritating, whining drone.

Lundy Bancroft: [immature etc] men's abusiveness is their ticket to running away FROM THEMSELVES.

do not stop reading chumplady.com. Not to be angry and vindictive, but to truly absorb, understand and accept the very hard realities. She gets it.
He has lots of issues. What about yours? Co dependence is a bitch, Alpha. It is also a way of running away from ourselves. I fear loneliness and doubt my competence, so I have been 'committing' and hoping he would work on his issues (what that actually did was give him information that he got away with it and that I will tolerate disrespect). If I spend lots and lots of time trying to 'reach' Mr Wobbly and getting him to change, then perhaps he can provide me with the love I need to feel happy and secure...

Not. Going. To. Happen. I have to make myself secure. It really hurts to accept that the person you love is this disconnected Alpha. You discovered the phone and more hotel bills. That tells you all you need to know about how much he has changed and how hard he is working! He changed the phone because he is ENTITLED to and you aren't the boss of him. He doesn't get your pain. Its inconvenient. If he mouths a couple of things then you should stop crying. He tried, now he has had enough.

Wellwobbly Fri 16-Aug-13 06:05:21

chumplady:

Why do cheaters cheat? Because they CAN. It’s that simple. Do you need more of an answer? Okay. Because of greediness. Because of narcissism. Because of a lack of empathy for others affected by their shit decisions. Because they value ego kibbles more than they value your well-being. But the reasons simply boil down to — greed, opportunity, and not caring.

One very common mistake the Cheated Upon make is believing it is all way more complicated than that.

- Alpha it really is as simple as this. Finding out that the person I loved was this disconnected, this selfish, has been the most painful thing. It has taken a long time to see just HOW disconnected and selfish. It was waiting and hoping for better. But he was always like this. And once he decided he was tired of being a husband and father, he set about quite deliberately to find someone to give him lovely ego kibbles. When your partner told you about excitement and fantasy he was telling the truth. You have to be disconnected and not have empathy to find that exciting.

The other thing? They never stop lying. To stop lying would be to face himself. You are not worth that and you can't make him.

Mosman Fri 16-Aug-13 06:40:45

I'm dabbling on a bit but I think what got me was the realisation that he'd kissed me goodbye in the morning, I'd driven 250 miles to work whilst he spent the day playing with our baby, sending me photos of the little one, called me to make sure I wasn't suspicious and was dealt with then got in his car bought a bottle of wind - not condoms mind - drove her to a hotel, had sex, spent an hour or so with her the next day, drove the 250 miles to our head office - we wirked gor the asme company then met me for lunch.
Who the fuck could do that ? Where's the empathy, the love, there's nothing, nothing.
I would be in bits, stuttering, sweating - he never missed a beat - and that's what cannot be be forgotten, that they'd fuck you over without hesitation.

alphacourse Fri 16-Aug-13 07:34:41

I am reading and re-reading. I need to think about what you have said. You are right. I need to digest it. He doesn't feel guilty about what he has done to me does he? He feels angry and upset for himself. I will re-read and post more.

Wellwobbly Fri 16-Aug-13 10:15:20

Alpha, I am posting this because this isn't about him. And because THIS took me 4 years of your situation to truly understand. Chumplady again:

Are you on the fence about leaving a cheater? Is this not their first rodeo? Here are some common traps that keep you stuck with a cheater and prevent you from moving on.

1. Hope. Codependency has been described as the addiction to the POTENTIAL of things. Are you hooked on a cheater’s potential? Wow, she could be a great partner… if only? Or — I want the guy I thought I married back? Do you grasp at the smallest indication that this person gives a shit about you? You’ve got hope sickness.

It’s hard to be down on hope. It’s hard to fault people who have hope. It seems virtuous. But in cases of infidelity, it can keep you STUCK. Listen to me betrayed people — hope is not your friend. You need to bludgeon hope with a fencepost and begin to operate with total lucidity.

Because hope is so strong, cheaters know exactly what a powerful manipulation tool this is. The goal of a cheater is cake. Your goal is to get them to come to their senses and be that sparkly person you fell in love with and commit to you. So they will use hope to keep you on the hook. They will feign remorse, cry, say they miss you. They may go to counseling. Admit, hey, they aren’t perfect or Mistakes Were Made. They may crack open a book (usually something like “When Good People Cheat.”) And you, desperate to save this mess — take it as a Sign.

The only antidote to hope sickness is self knowledge. Know what you will and will not tolerate. What your values are. Where your boundaries are. Be unswerving in your loyalty to yourself, to your well-being and what sort of relationship YOU want. Hold out for that. Cheaters lie and they lie artfully. So it is essential to watch what your cheater DOES and pay zero attention to what they say.

This is very hard to do. Hope is like that siren song in Ulysses. You’re going to have to tie yourself to the mast and stuff cotton in your ears. But stay strong, because crazy hope that this person is going to fix this and stop hurting you — in the face of evidence to the contrary — is the number one reason why people stay stuck with cheaters.

Wellwobbly Fri 16-Aug-13 10:17:38

Did you read that? What he DOES? 1. change the code 2. lie/'fail to mention' his activity when baby was small. After being caught and professing a desire to change.

That's what you have to keep looking at. Drop the hopium pipe.

alphacourse Fri 16-Aug-13 11:54:16

Yes - I'm reading and taking it in. I have to judge him by actions, and not his words. His words are right. His actions don't support them do they. Shit shit shit. Thank you - I so need to hear this. My head and heart aren't catching up fast enough are they? I really really need to hear what you are saying. Thank you xx

Wellwobbly Fri 16-Aug-13 12:07:40

Alpha, the lying is just so awful. I did not know there were so many ways to hide yourself in order to maintain a position of advantage over another person: from secrecy, to frank denial, to obstinately refusing to answer a question, to leaving something out, to 'failing to mention', to misdirecting.

I didn't, because I don't work that way! And the key is: you mustn't have people who 'work that way' in your life. They cause stress and hurt and angst, and there are a lot, a lot of people who DON'T 'work that way' you will be calmer and better off, around.

I said to Mr Wobbly 'your ability to lie is terrifying'. Do you know what he answered? 'Yes, it is'.

Dr George Simon: character disordered people know the rules. They know they are hurting people. They know they 'should' be doing something else. They are not 'confused'.They do it for an advantage.

You have to look at the advantages he gets Alpha. You AND the life of being single!! And for someone who wants cake over true intimacy? Lying whilst doing something else is advantageous.

Mosman Fri 16-Aug-13 12:35:59

Give yourself a chance, 6 weeks into this journey is nothing at all. Just look after you, nice food, facials, hair do's what ever you like. Don't waste your cash on counselling he can pay did that - that's another action you need to see and they are less likely to waste their own money.

alphacourse Fri 16-Aug-13 13:28:56

I don't have any independent income - he would have to pay for counselling. And no facials etc for me until I can sort myself out. I am on maternity leave from his business. I filled in tax credits this week, and also let my flat and reinstated child benefit. I have a loan though and credit card payments.

Yes - it is the lies upon lies. The answers to questions, whoch then turn out to be partial truths or lies. It makes you question your sanity I think.

Mosman Fri 16-Aug-13 14:01:07

Baby steps, talk to the loan company and cc see if they will freeze the interest for you.
You'll be ok, he's fucked ;-)

alphacourse Fri 16-Aug-13 15:42:30

I wish I had your confidence about that at the minute! When I met him I had a BIG career, owned a large pretty house in a sought after area. I am now concerned about whether I could evenb rent anywhere as he has buggered my credit rating.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 08:22:10

I've woken so very sad and confused. I read other people's threads and they seem so clear headed. So 'grab a bag and throw them out'. It would be easier if it was a traditional affair I think, although emotional betrayal would be there. This is like I have never known him. He has been on these sites for over half our relationship!

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 09:37:51

I've just had a run in with him. He started huffing and puffing and tutting as things were "all over the place" in the fridge. He tuts a lot. I said "leave the shopping- I will put it away". He carried on whilst huffing. I said you won't have to worry about it in a week - you will have your own fridge. He said "thank God". I started to cry - it is all hitting me. He just walked out to go and play tennis, leaving me crying.

3HotCrossBuns Sat 17-Aug-13 09:51:49

Oh that's shit Alpha. The night before I left to come away with the kids H said to me (as part of a row) that he couldn't wait for me to leave. It's so spiteful but I doubt he truly means it - things are very stressful and pressured for both of you, he is lashing out just at the time you're most vulnerable. I'm sure he doesn't want to leave his home comforts and reacted badly to what you said. Not excusing him though!! It's shit and one of the (many!) reasons why it's the consequences of infidelity that the hardest bit to deal with.

Hopefully he will calm down whilst he's out. The next few days in the run up to him moving out will be hard but the space you get afterwards will be worth it. It's so difficult to work out what you feel when he's in your face the whole time!!

ProphetOfDoom Sat 17-Aug-13 11:06:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mosman Sat 17-Aug-13 11:10:06

You don't have to wait for him to move out when it suits, have an overnight bag waiting for him when he gets back from fecking tennis and point him in the direction of the B and B's locally. I'm sure he's no stranger to booking hotel rooms.
Honestly this is do as I say not do as I do, it's do bloody hard but I which I'd been tougher

Mosman Sat 17-Aug-13 11:14:09

I wish I'd been tougher, would have reached the happy place so much quicker.
And by the way six months ago I was in a jointly rented house in Australia, our house in the uk was about to be repossessed, no job and if dickhead refused to give me cash the kids and I had nothing.
Fast forward six months and input earn him by thirty grand, am overpaying the mortgage and live In a lovely rented house that's much more manageable and feels really homely.
The support on here will get you through this and kick you up the arse when you need it as well as passing the wine and tissues.

Mosman Sat 17-Aug-13 11:15:37

Out earn him - flipping phone does my head in

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 13:00:08

Just a quick post and will say more later. I think you will be proud of me. I sent him a message saying that he can come and pack his bags and stay at a friends house this week until his flat it ready. He has agreed to go tomorrow. He is out tonight anyway. He sent a message saying how much he hates himself for hurting me. I told him that was bollocks. He just hates himself for being foind out. That if he hated hurting me he wouldn't be playing stupid fucking games with his passwords.

Mosman Sat 17-Aug-13 13:01:44

:-)
Even if you end up back with him that will have done you the world of good.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 13:09:39

Even through all of this I have treated him with compassion and kindness. I have shown empathy. I can do better. I WILL do better.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 13:16:37

I think I have just taken control and shifted the power back?

Mosman Sat 17-Aug-13 13:17:40

Exactly. And that's hard to give up so either he shapes up or ships out permanently.

3HotCrossBuns Sat 17-Aug-13 13:19:27

I think it entirely possible to stand up for yourself and still be empathetic. Being unkind or cruel is not necessary. Well done you for acting with strength and dignity.

Well done Alpha, you have come a long way.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 14:30:18

He came back from tennis and I started arguing with him. Bad move. I should have just left it and been dignified in silence. I told him he was a loser and has disregarded mine and the childrens emotional and physical safety. He told me I am a cunt and he can't wait to be rid of me and that he will pay for DC2 and DC3 but me and DC1 can go fuck ourselves. I blacked out. He has gone out with DC2.

Showing his true colours now, isn't he?
Hope he leaves you alone soon. Pig man that he is.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 14:35:17

I've just made it so much worse sad

ageofgrandillusion Sat 17-Aug-13 14:35:19

He can take a lot from you OP - and he has - but he can never take your honesty, decency, and integrity. Remain true to yourself, rise above this vile, nasty man and never, ever allow him to bring you down to his level .. and start move on with your life.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 14:37:23

I feel sick. He said I fitted. My head is banging and I've thrown up.

Have you had fits before?

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 14:44:24

I had one a few weeks ago. Stress induced. I have an mri on fri morning and an egg at Kings a week on tuesday.

Can you call anyone to be with you right now?

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 14:49:04

No. Mum and dad are driving down from the north this afternoon. My bestie is on holiday. He has taken DC2 to the park. He is out tonight.

How are you now? Do you need a doctor?

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 14:59:39

I'm ok I think. Just a banging head and feel sick. Just BF DC3. How did this become my life?

Mosman Sat 17-Aug-13 15:01:43

Oh love, people say terrible things in anger he is a dickhead and he knows it, attack is his only form of defense.
Oh and he will support you, so he can fuck himself ;-)

Can you take things easy? Cuddle up with baby?
You will get through this, you poor love, you have done nothing to deserve this, not a thing.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 15:11:34

But attacking me now, after all he has done, just compounds my pain. I know he doesn't mean what he said - but once you say things you can't take them back can you. I know he will pay for us - he is about image after all! It would make him look bad if he doesn't, if nothing else. Me fitting will make him feel bad about himself. I think he just wants to run away so he doesn't have to face up to the impact of his actions. If he tells the hospital about this fit, I won't be able to drive for a year! Oh shit - this isn't good at all. I should just have kept quiet. It is all just bubbling inside me, and it spills out every few weeks as I am bottling it all up and hoping for a magic wand to whisk it all away.

ProphetOfDoom Sat 17-Aug-13 15:13:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

He hates the true reflection of himself he sees in your eyes. Far easier for him to convince himself your opinion is meaningless by attacking and belittling you.That way he can deny the truth and still believe himself to be a pretty good guy hmm
Sad, tragic, predictable, fuckwittage is all it is. He's a walking cliche.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 16:07:28

Will he ever get that?

JoAlone Sat 17-Aug-13 16:18:31

Have had a quick read through, and missed a bit, but what I am hearing is, he is playing tennis, going out, not being honest, getting angry with you!!!!, not supporting you, leaving you alone with an infant after having a fit!!! What a completely self-absorbed, self-serving, selfish simpleton.

Sounds like my ex, who ended up finally admitting to cheating with a minimum of 43 women, mostly paid for (by my money!), and I didn't have a clue. he only admitted 2 years after our split. We had an amicable seperation/divorce, until he found a new partner. He is an animal dressed in a white collar, and he doesn't deserve you. No matter how you handle this, you will be wrong, because they cannot stand you being right.

They turn nasty when you challenge them.... they don't want to be 'burdened' by normal life...it's all me, me, me. He can't even fucking step away from himself for 2 seconds to think of the implication of you having to recover from a fit and having to look after an infant...

Another site that really helped me understand a little more was Lovefraud.com

Best of luck to you. I know it takes a while for your world view to change, but it will, in time.

My life feels much better now that he is out of it (as much as is practical), I never realised how depressing his presence in my world was. How much life he sucked out of me, how responsible I felt for looking after him, till he was gone. I got physically sick because of him, it's not worth it. After 17 years of marriage, I mean nothing to him. It is a complete mind bend, but the more you stand up for yourself ( and don't say you made things worse, you made things real, not worse), the more you will find yourself.

It's going to be tough Alpha, but you are on the right route, keep going, one step at a time. His life has hardly been interrupted, he still plays tennis, he still goes out!!! He has demolished your world as you know it, and he is showing his true colours. Be brave, be as strong as you can, eat something, look after yourself, he is not worth you giving your health away for, and your children need you.

Take care
Jo

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 16:32:36

Thank you - it helps to know others have been through this, although I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Why is it I still want him to walk in through the door and wrap his arms around me?! What is wrong with me? How did you stand strong?

ProphetOfDoom Sat 17-Aug-13 18:07:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoAlone Sat 17-Aug-13 18:36:37

Hmm, that is a tough one, after 2 years apart, and finding out that he had lied to me our entire marriage (he had also cheated on me during my pregnancy), the only one I wanted comfort from was him. I have a theory about it, but I don't know how much it would stand up in a debate. From all the books I read, and all the discussion groups I joined the thing that made the most sense to me (and it seems to be a theme running through your experience as well) is the following: We all have unmet needs in our childhood. As adults we recognize characteristics in someone else that reminds us of this parent, and we seek for this need to be met by this person. In fact we get excited (we call it a 'spark') in feeling that this need will finally be met. Unfortunately the need is not met, and the characteristics of the individual set us up for a huge fall, because they are the same characteristics in the parent that failed to meet that need. You say your first husband and your mother were selfish (I think I read that in the posts), it is not a co-incidence that you keep on gravitating toward the same person. It is from my understanding the child in you reaching out for that need to be met. In the face of overwhelming evidence that this person in fact will never meet that need, the child within us still reaches out, seeking fault with the way they are reaching out, or the person that they are, that if they are just better, thinner, prettier, or whatever the perceived 'lack' is.

I found it useful to keep a diary, to say all the things to him that I wanted to, it helped me sort my head out a bit without putting myself in a position of being vulnerable to him. I saw a therapist that helped me to figure out a plan. I made a little mantra of 'what do I want to tell him, why? will I get the answer I want? what will I do if he gives me the answer I don't want? why do I feel I need to tell him, and will it make any difference? It was just my little coping strategy. I also accessed my 'inner child' and realised that as an adult I needed to protect that vulnerable part of me. It might sound like a bit of nonsense, but it helped me, and I feel stronger. The more your read, the more information and understanding you get, and are able to take on board, the stronger you will feel in your conviction. The feeling you have for him is not love, it is a need you want fulfilled, and the truth is he can never ever fill it, and trying to get it filled will only bring you more pain. You chose to have a relationship and children with a man you trusted. You invested in your family life, and your relationship with him, he was never a part of the equation. He just came along for the ride, and when the ride got tedious, he jumped off at various stations.

I think one of the hardest things is to realise that his mask has slipped, he never was who he professed to be, and he will never be who you think he is, that is who you are missing, who you want to get back, like a bad dream. You sound like you are making good progress, it is a bloody hard road to travel, an unenviable one.

Take care, be kind to yourself, and eat something.

JoAlone Sat 17-Aug-13 18:45:18

P.S I wasn't strong at all, I spent a lot of time crying, and feeling very pathetic, and very alone and very very sad. I felt like I was walking around with a heart that only functioned because I was holding it together with sellotape (other brands are available). I was angry, and felt useless. I felt that I was fundamentally unlovable, that there was something fundamentally wrong with me, and that other people were just being too polite and not telling me what it was. I felt like a complete fool for not knowing. I had my suspicions, but the reality was so much more than I could ever have imagined. People telling me to 'get a grip' made me feel like I could physically harm them. But you sort of need to go through that, it is normal, you have had a really bad experience, but I am not going to let it ruin the rest of my life, and neither should you. Mourn your losses (there will be many), acknowledge the hurt, stand up on your wobbly legs (hold on if you think you are going to faint) and start taking little steps forward, every small shaky step in the opposite direction ends up being 10 then 20 and before you know it you are hundreds of steps away from that situation. Sounds like you have taken a good first few steps. There is a lot of advice and good literature out there, absorb it, and keep moving forward.

alphacourse Sat 17-Aug-13 19:42:43

I wish I could round you all up in a room and ply you with mojitos and Lindor chocolates xxx

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 09:28:37

joalone thank you - I agree with your theory I think. I am trying to work out why I think he is going to change. Why I keep looking at him waiting for him to get it. He won't. Or perhaps he will after tonnes and tonnes of therapy. But by then I won't care anymore will I?

matilda I wish I could fast forward to that place!

He will be back this morning. I am going out this afternoon with the children. Yesterday we agreed he would pack whilst we are out. My money is on the fact that he will try and stay. This is meant to be his last week here with me and the children. I would be surprised if he goes without a fight. He will try talking me around and being charming. I have to focus on the actions not the words don't I? I need to be strong.

3HotCrossBuns Sun 18-Aug-13 09:30:36

How are you this morning? Hope you got some sleep! Have your parents arrived? I hope you have some support and the opportunity to take it easy and rest a little this weekend. Is H still going to his mates today?

3HotCrossBuns Sun 18-Aug-13 09:34:15

X-post! I think trying to stay out of each other's way sounds a good plan. I guess if he starts trying to persuade you that he should stay you just need to say that if he's serious about helping you heal and recover your strength then he should respect your wish for space and a calm home. Then leave him to it.

Mosman Sun 18-Aug-13 09:36:39

Can somebody come to the house to be there when he is meant to leave ? My friend is a lawyer and she came over and did the broken record technic - M would like you to leave now Mr M it's for the best. Only took about 30 bloody goes.

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 10:08:25

Mum and dad aren't staying here - thought it would be awkward as he was meant to be here this week. They are staying with my DB and DSIL. He has text me this morning asking what time I am going out. He then replied asking if I would be eating out. My guess is that he will try and suggest a take away tonight or going out "to chat". Could be wrong though!

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 10:17:17

Bugger - posted too soon. He has just text asking if he could bath DC2 and put him to bed tonight. What shall I say? I don't want to use the DC as pawns.

oldgrandmama Sun 18-Aug-13 10:22:05

This isn't something I've ever publicly talked about before, but I was married to a man who was chronically unfaithful during our whole marriage - including with someone I thought was my best friend. In fact, I used to cry in her arms about it while she'd say 'there there, all men are bastards ...' etc. etc. The betrayal when I found out was unbearable. I made the mistake of thinking that it was better to continue the marriage (we had two children) than to leave him, for the kids' sake. So I stayed - for twenty years! It did my mental and physical health no good at all and there were times I was strongly tempted to kill myself. But I stuck it out until the kids were at uni, then I started divorce proceedings.

Did I do the right thing? Hell, no. The kids (now in their 40s) always say I should have finished it when I knew he'd never change. By the way, it was tough when I finally left him but I've never looked back, or been happier since. He went on to marry one of his women and they're both pretty miserable together - there IS a God!!!!!!

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 10:22:38

We aren't going out until 2.30 and going to soft play and dinner, so we may not be back until his bedtime/just after anyway? But he will think I am trying to play games won't he?

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 10:25:57

Old thank you for sharing - and I'm sorry you had to deal with so much pain. I'm glad you are happy now, and your children are supportive. I know you are right - life is short. But it is hard to let go isn't it? Of the what if.

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 10:38:19

OK - I text him saying that I thought we would be back late as we were having dinner out etc and was probably just going to pop him into bed. He replied: "Ok fine. Will do tomorrow night instead then.xx"

Grrr - he is just going to announce it isn't he. What he says goes. Tempted to say "fine - mum and dad will be here tomorrow as well" as he ont want to see them? Or then, am I just playing his games and lowering myself?

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 10:43:05

Help! Please! I don't want to get this wrong!

ageofgrandillusion Sun 18-Aug-13 11:53:06

I'd say what you said is fine - your mam and dad will be there. You dont have to explain why, you dont owe him an explanation and, frankly, whether or not you feel you are lowering to his level is frankly irrelevant - this has got way too serious to worry about stuff like that. You are just doing what you need to do. IMO, he sounds like the kind of bully who could get really nasty when he doesnt get his own way so you are well justifed in having somebody there.

Doha Sun 18-Aug-13 12:57:23

"fine - mum and dad will be here tomorrow as well" that is enough. short factual and to the point

JoAlone Sun 18-Aug-13 13:31:35

One thing you will get used to is that he is going to ride roughshod over all your boundaries. So my advice would be, to be clear on what you are doing, you don't need to explain or apologise. Your message about going out with the kids was fine. You can choose to tell him they will be there or not. From your complete lack of confidence in yourself I can tell that he has done a serious number on you, he is expecting you to jump every time he says so. You are in a place where you don't know where your feet are meant to be. It will get easier, I promise. For now, I would advise that you use the broken record method as advised above, until he gives you clear answers, and that you start deciding how the childcare stuff is going to work. And then get him to agree to it. You are not playing games, you are trying to figure your future out. He will make you feel like you are playing games, because it is a deflection of what he is doing. He will try to make you feel so insecure in your stand, that you will start to wonder whether you have legs at all. What I did, and it helped me a lot, was record as many conversations as I could on my phone, it helped me piece together the manipulation and attempts at control. It also helped me see how easily he evaded straight forward questions. EH still doesn't know that I have a recording of many conversations and phone calls, but I found out that it wasn't illegal to record without his knowledge, and it gave me sanity. I occassionally still listen to them as I attempt to pick out the finer details of what really happened, at the time I wasn't able to take it all on board, but the more I listen and learn, the more I realise how much he used me for his own needs and ego. Also, if you can, I would recommend a friend or family member for the day he moves out, because you are taking away some of his control, he could get nasty. For your own protection, and the emotional stability of your DD's. You need all the support you can get, and don't expect him to be nice or reasonable, especially if he doesn't get his own way. I suspect he is a man who has been used to getting his own way for a long time. Start listening to that inner voice, stop listening to his lies, it will become easier, I promise, but you are in the middle of an explosion the moment, you need support, you need to protect yourself. If he wants to bath DD, then there has to be strict rules on which days, what time, how long etc. and it has to suit you, not him. You have 3 DC's to look after, he only has his tennis, drinking and vagina hunting other activities.

Alpha, don't forget that you are a fantastic human being who has brought 3 humans into this world, and you are stronger than you think.

Good luck

JoAlone Sun 18-Aug-13 13:33:32

Sorry, always seem to have a lot to say.

Old flowers

ProphetOfDoom Sun 18-Aug-13 15:44:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Sun 18-Aug-13 23:28:48

Thank you for your help today. I survived! He packed some stuff while we were out, but is coming tomorrow to see the DC. He sent me a text saying he is hurting because of what I said to him. It is still all about him. My head is still hurting, so I will post more tomorrow.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 18-Aug-13 23:58:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mosman Mon 19-Aug-13 01:59:22

He's out though that is a huge huge step and pschyologically it's so helpful for you.

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 09:55:50

Feel physically better but emotionally battered this morning. DC1 is overtired and being horrid. I just want calm.

ProphetOfDoom Mon 19-Aug-13 12:56:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoAlone Mon 19-Aug-13 19:38:09

Unfortunately kids pick up when we are low, and tend to play up, it's a lot to deal with. Use as much help as is offered, and be kind to yourself. Who really cares if he is hurting, and why is he even telling you? All you need to focus on is yourself and your DC's. Feel so much for you right now, it will get better, just keep taking those little steps.

Another biscuit for him

And flowers for you Alpha

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 20:34:13

Well. He has been and gone this evening. Brought a huge box of chocolates for me. His eyes looked teary the whole time he was here. He gave me a hug as he left and said he was sorry, and not to be sad as he wasn't worth it.

He's right smile

Doha Mon 19-Aug-13 20:40:05

Probably the most honest thing he said to you in months.

AnyFucker Mon 19-Aug-13 20:50:02

he nailed it.

no more to say

are you moved by the shitty chocolates and crocodile tears ?

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 21:03:59

I'm not moved. I do feel a bit sad for him and what he has lost. But I feel more sad for me and the DC. Had a weepy day today, but feel stronger this evening.

3HotCrossBuns Mon 19-Aug-13 21:06:49

I agree with the other posters. If you're anything like me you'll be desperate for any sign of remorse, regret, love for you etc. Try not to give it any more weight than just words and a quick trip to the corner shop!! First 24hours done, well done!

Doha Mon 19-Aug-13 21:32:02

Go on eat the chocolates..but keep me the strawberry cream please smile

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 22:00:54

You can have the strawberry cream - work of the devil! I'll bag all the hazlenut whirls though! You are righ 3Hot - but my mantra is "look at the actions, not words". Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. I am 5ft 9 and now my size 8 are falling off me - can't seem to stop losing weight - stress? I have just eaten another bowl of ready brek and guzzled a few chocolates. He has just text me to say goodnight and "I just wanted to say I am sorry for all of this". Sounds detached doesn't it? Not "I'm sorry for what I have done" etc. Like he compartmentalises.

AnyFucker Mon 19-Aug-13 22:07:04

did you reply ?

I'll have the coffee cremes, btw

3HotCrossBuns Mon 19-Aug-13 22:11:03

I lost the best part of a stone in the first month. No more since then but I'm surviving on wine, chocolate, crisps, homous, cheese and the kids left overs. Oh and ice cream!! Not healthy!! I could do with losing another stone quite honestly. And I thought weight loss was my silver lining winkconfused

'Nothing motivates a cheater like loss' is something posted on my thread and its true! Give it a few weeks to settle down though before rushing back in - you might not want to, he might not be able to keep this up etc. I desperately need to take my own advice with that! Currently I have to sit on my hands not to text him. Failed miserably this morning.

Doha Mon 19-Aug-13 22:27:33

Don't engage with him alpha he is at his own pity party of one, wallowing in it.
chomp a few more hazelnut creams (you're welcome to them and you can have the coffee cremes with pleasure AF) and then get a good night sleep.

PS does anyone remember the butterscotch chocolate in black magic? Best in the world my favourite ever and then they were discontinued sad

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 22:53:45

I replied: Thank you.

Any takers for the "white lemon mousse"?

The loss comment is true - it would have been easier if he hadn't come back last time, but I had the seizure. That set me back a bit with this. I am going to try not to engage. It is hard as he texts quite a bit during the day, and if I don't reply he thinks I might have passed out of had another seizure. Not sure what to do about that....any ideas?

JoAlone Mon 19-Aug-13 23:01:35

Ooh, lemon, mousse and chocolate, me please...

That is a tough question, ordinarily I would say don't respond at all, but perhaps try to come up with a bland answer that you send everytime to avoid him having an excuse to come over.

AnyFucker Mon 19-Aug-13 23:03:28

I would tell him you are going to ignore the attempts to keep him in your thoughts. Because that is exactly what his "texts throughout the day" are

and then ignore him

he wasn't so concerned about his wife who might pass out before, was he ?

he is trying to control you

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 23:11:16

Is that what it is? He has always kept in touch through the day. I had 10 today - and think that is pretty typical. Some are business related (only 1 was today, but it is often more). There are work emails too. It is going to be hard to not communicate at all. Just short and to the point answers? Perhaps I can wean him a bit this week as I am seeing my parents at some point most days I think, so he will know that I'm ok?

ageofgrandillusion Mon 19-Aug-13 23:12:27

I agree, ignore the texts, subtle control technique. I wonder when he is going to get nasty again and start calling you a cunt? My guess - around about the time when the penny drops that you are actually serious and there is no coming back from this.

AnyFucker Mon 19-Aug-13 23:13:25

Your relationship has changed now

hasn't it ? confused

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 23:13:56

Jo I have put them on one side for you. Any other requests?

Doha - sorry, I'm not a dark chocolate kind of girl. I'm a galaxy and lindor scoffler. Omnomnomnom.

3HotCrossBuns Mon 19-Aug-13 23:17:23

This is so hard, I feel for you. I think if there are legitimate business emails/texts that require an answer then answer appropriately, communicate as necessary re the kids and leave it at that. One of the unfortunate consequences of a 'separation' is that you're not sharing your lives anymore so that level of connectedness is no longer appropriate. Also you need space in order to process what has happened clearly. It's like cutting off a limb though hmm - I can't manage it although some days are better than others. I say 'detach' to myself out loud some times blush

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 23:20:36

How long has he gone for 3Hot?

Doha Mon 19-Aug-13 23:23:48

I have to agree with 3HotCrossBuns, answer only the emails that are relevant to the business and ignore any personal ones unless they relate to DC's. He is feeding off the contact with you.

Time for you to get to bed (that's an order) you need to sleep and de -stress to try prevent more seizures

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 23:24:06

Yes - our relationship has changed. It almost feels rude not replying - but I will have to do so. Boundaries. Self preservation.

AnyFucker Mon 19-Aug-13 23:25:10

rude ?

are you kidding ??

Doha Mon 19-Aug-13 23:27:59

Rude is good, l think we can allow that wink

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 23:28:50

I will Doha just doing a dream feed in the hope of avoiding the 1.30 call for booby-snacks.

I have a hair appointment tomorrow afternoon. I haven't been to the hairdressers since the day we got engaged in March.

alphacourse Mon 19-Aug-13 23:33:18

It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? It IS ridiculous. It WILL feel rude to me though - but I will cope. I think I must have become so used to avoiding conflict with him over the years that it feels uncomfortable not replying etc. <Sighs>

3HotCrossBuns Mon 19-Aug-13 23:34:30

Not him who's gone, its me with the kids holidaying at my mother's beach apartment! Lucky us! Left H at home nearly 3 weeks ago now. Here for another 10 days probably. Hooray for the summer holidays. He did come for a 'visit' (didn't stay with us though, stayed nearby) for a few days and went home yesterday. It was nice for the DCs to see him and give me a break from the parenting. Not brilliant between us though as I'm really struggling. I was upset this morning about everything he's done and spent too long messaging him about it. Mistake. Much better for my own sanity not to engage. I'm almost doing mindfuckery to myself!! Will do better tomorrow!! So that's why I think it's better to distance yourself - for your own sake.

Mosman Tue 20-Aug-13 12:30:08

How's it going alpha ?

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 12:49:21

I feel stronger today I think, thank you. Less teary than yesterday. It IS easier without him here, although I miss him. My emotions are less up and down. Distamce does help. I was up between 1.30 and 5am with DC3 who needed a poo, so I am tired, but I don't have the sick feeling in my stomach today. I will see him tomorrow lunch time as he is picking DC2 up to go swimming. I have taken your advice re contact. He sent a few this morning saying "morning" and how was DC3 in the night and did I sleep well and what are we up to today etc.

Mosman Tue 20-Aug-13 13:05:41

It will hit him hard but it bloody has to.
Once that I could throw up at any moment feeling starts to subside your half way there I reckon.
Can you have a little nana nap later on today ?

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 13:15:15

My friend said he looked like a scared little boy today, and looked shocked. I would have a nap, but I have my lovely haor appointment. Yey!

AnyFucker Tue 20-Aug-13 13:17:11

Ugh, is your friend of the opinion that you should give him more chances to cheat on you ?

tell her to keep her observations to herself

scared little boy hmm what over-emoting nonsense that is

Mosman Tue 20-Aug-13 16:02:51

I bet he didn't look like a scared little boy with his head between her legs. I play that image over and over in my head daily and it removes any shred of sympathy in fact I can just about restrain myself from whacking him with a frying pan when I see that sad little face grin

Change2013 Tue 20-Aug-13 17:59:28

This is another aspect that seems to appear in many cheating men - using the sad little boy act to get sympathy they don't deserve, and to get their own way. They are master manipulators.

Its taken me a while but it doesn't work with me anymore.

AnyFucker Tue 20-Aug-13 18:26:26

I predict he will start to look a little unkempt, like he's not sleeping too well, like he's losing weight with the stress of it all, like he has the caaaaares of the world on his shoulders. A little mini breakdown-ette to follow and some self pitying "I have nothing to live for now" communications.

All in the script, innit

JoAlone Tue 20-Aug-13 19:24:02

Agree with all of the above, and watch out for 'friends' wanting you to take him back for the kids sake. People are very easy to con when they see the 'sad eyes' just last week I had someone tell my DD how she 'needs' her dad and how much he misses her. Well then he shouldn't have ducked around and moved to a different country then. Stay strong. Keep being kind to yourself, hope your hair looks amazing.

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 19:25:53

Ouch mosman. But, yes, you are right. He enjoyed every minute of the messages and meeting up until I found out didn't he?

AF Whilst I have lost loads of weight (was slim to start with) he seems to have been comfort eating! I also noticed he is thinning on top. Gutted for him, of course.

So - is that the script now?

AnyFucker Tue 20-Aug-13 19:34:46

Wait and see, alpha

Whilst staying very much at arm's length

His agenda will unfold before your very eyes. But you will soon be too busy and too bored with him to notice, of course.

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 19:38:49

There is no way he can make this right now, is there. What he has done is bad enough, but the way that he has handled it is even worse. ll the lies upon lies. The anger. The deflection and attacking. So so selfish.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 20-Aug-13 19:49:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 19:59:13

God I hate the huffing and puffing! When did that start? He certainly didn't do it on our first date! It is a relief. I miss him, but it is much calmer and I am less tense. I do believe he wants to save us, he just has no idea how (despite me telling him!) But I waited long enough I think. I did tell him that his actions were time critical. I am starting to become irritated by his lack of emotional intelligence.

He has every idea. But since that would mean not being a lying skank he chooses not to.

3HotCrossBuns Tue 20-Aug-13 20:17:03

My H has lots of ideas but daren't do any of them for fear of it 'being the wrong thing'. But cowardice is a trait of his. Otherwise Alpha I so hear you re the lack of emotional intelligence and maturity. But then if he had either if those things he wouldn't have had his affairs. V tedious.

AnyFucker Tue 20-Aug-13 20:17:32

Of course he knows what he has to do

He just doesn't think he should have to, and he is still under the impression you will come to your senses very soon and roll over like a Godd Girl

AnyFucker Tue 20-Aug-13 20:17:44

*Good

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 20:38:44

If he thinks that, then he doesn't know me at all! Why is he bothering reading the books his therapist gave him then, if he has no intention of changing?

Yes 3 - it is tedious

ageofgrandillusion Tue 20-Aug-13 20:46:20

I dont know why this guy has a therapist. It makes a mockery of the whole therapy industry. I mean, what does he say to his therapist? "Why am i such a nasty, entitled, cunt?"

3HotCrossBuns Tue 20-Aug-13 20:50:17

Ha ha Age - I sent a friend of mine a text earlier saying my H was welcome to carry on seeing his therapist (and wasting his money) but that it was all a load of bollocks unless there is therapy for just wanting the 'lad' lifestyle of drinking, smutty emails, dates with other women etc and being an entitled arse.

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 21:01:59

That is the funny thing though......Those were issues he wrote down before he went to see this therapist. He wrote that he didnt like who he was, he was selfish and not a nice person etc. Those were some of the issues he wanted to uderstand why, and how to change them. He doesnt know that I have seen his list by the way.

AnyFucker Tue 20-Aug-13 21:09:42

You didn't need to have seen any "list"

His behaviour tells all smile

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 21:20:25

lol - that is true; I was surprised that he recognised it though.

JoAlone Tue 20-Aug-13 22:11:54

He probably left it somewhere on purpose. The only thing he feels sorry for is himself. He thought he was clever, but its all unravelling, he will be desperate for a bit and try to tell you what he thinks you want to hear, but the damage is done, the dream has been shattered.

alphacourse Tue 20-Aug-13 22:22:42

You are right. It would take him years of therapy to sort his entitlement and selfishness out. There is no way I am putting my life on hold for that. No way. I am gutted, but it already feels less tense now he has gone I think. He will literally have nobody. No friends. No family. What a rubbish position to be in at 37, and nobody to blame but himself.

He is coming to pick DC2 up after his nap tomorrow to take him swimming. I hope I am feeling like this tomorrow. Will fake it until I can make it, as much as I can.

mumat39 Tue 20-Aug-13 23:25:05

Hey alpha.

thanks, brew and wine for you. It sounds like you're doing amazingly well, and it's great that you're feeling more calm now that you finally have the space you need to just be, iykwim.

Is it your MRI scan tomorrow? Good luck and hope it goes ok.

My offer of help is still there, though I know you have you're parents down at the moment. I hope they are able to help out a bit so you can catch up on some rest.

I hope the haircut wet well and that you enjoyed doing something for just you for a change. I oly get my haircut about twice a year but th