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Ending a Ten and a Half year affair(457 Posts)
Im unable to write full background for fear of being recognised but the crux of the problem remains the same... unbelievably I have been having an affair for the above time and it remains as passionate and intense today as it did on day one. The problem... I need to leave because I want a new life of my own as I know he does not have the strength, courage or wherewithal to leave his family. His children are now aged 18-21, his elderly mother (who lost her husband recently) has now come to live with him and he is the prime carer. I know it was morally wrong to become involved with a married man but the attraction was strong and I didn't for one moment, think it would span out 10years!!! How do I find the strength to leave a relationship that provides me with everything that a woman would relish except commitment! i.e love, companionship, support, fun and anything that a newlywed would be proud of. The physical side is as passionate as if we just met. How do I take steps to leave?? I have tried many times and each time we hurt each other, miss what we have and go back. WWYD apart from the suggestion of moving town and that is not feasible as I have children who are at college! He does not want me to leave which makes it all the more difficult.
Why do you want to end it?
It's very addictive being in what's essentially a long-distance relationship with someone. It's also very easy. Always fresh, passionate, everyone on best behaviour when you meet up etc If ending it completely is too daunting why not take a break for a month, two months, stretch it to six etc... means you're forced to find other things to do with your time, other people to be with, stop relying on him to be your love interest. Being honest, what he wants is totally unimportant. You owe him nothing at all.
Alternatively, I suppose you could pen a very long, very interesting letter to his wife. Burn a bridge or two. Good luck
This has happened to a friend of mine - I think she's on MN as she sent me a text after I made a comment on a thread. If you are, C, then email rather than text as I've changed my number.
He's not going to leave and you face a life of more of the same or a life where you have some control over what happens.
I think rather than love, it might be easier to see it as addiction. To be free of him, you could follow the same steps that you would if you were addicted to alcohol or drugs.
You know you deserve better. You know his wife's life has been uneasy at the very least for the last ten years - she certainly deserves better. On the other hand, your boyfriend doesn't deserve two women giving up their lives for him. He really doesn't.
Oh god. Surely you know all the arguments by now? Sorry if that sounds unsympathetic....I agree with Branleuse. You might be having a momentary wobble, but you're not going to leave.
Why now? What's changed? The only way to go is absolutely no contact - delete all numbers/email address, etc. but as others have said I doubt you could maintain that after ten years with him. You are addicted to this man and he is incredibly selfish. I also find it hard to believe that his wife doesn't suspect. 10 years of Christmas Day, New Years Eve and other meaningful days without him - wow!!!
Cogito, totally agree, we've discussed our relationship and likened it to an addiction. I want to leave to create a new life of my own, now my children are also much older. I do go out and see friends and i'm sociable but feel I've never allowed myself to fall in love with anyone else because my love reverts back to him. I feel no-one can ever match up to him physically/emotionally because of the likenesses we share. Our personalities are mirrored and he is everything I want. His wife's main priority is her job, she is very successful and quite frankly, I don't think she'd notice if he didn't come home! His children and mum are his main priority. We are in touch 24/7 and at times, are able to see each other 2-3 times a week.
Why does he want to leave his wife?
Don't you mean "Why doesn't he want to leave his wife", Chipping? He's going nowhere, is he?
What's there not to like for him? He's got it all.
Chumplady 'The unified theory of cake':
Cake eating is the preferred Nirvanic state of the unrepentant cheater. Its the situation in which the cheater has the affair partner (AP) and the spouse. (Having your cake and eating it too.) In fact, cake is a preferred lifestyle for many.
Ideally, the spouse is unaware of the AP, because that means the cheater has unfettered access to cake. After discovery, however, many cheaters will go to tremendous lengths to maintain cake. Cake eating is confusing to chumps. Chumps tend to think of affairs as competitions its me or him! Or what does she have that I dont have? Chumps see marriage through their own lens, of monogamy and commitment to one person. If they are not committed to me, a chump thinks, then theyre for the AP. So whos it gonna be?
Cake eaters do nothing to dissuade a distraught chump from this line of thinking. They would prefer a competition in which they are the center of the drama all attention is on them! And a catfight ensues over their fabulousness. Cheaters would prefer you not discover their cheating, but if it must be revealed, this is how theyd like to see it play out. You try harder to win them back and maybe if youre lucky, theyll choose you! (See The Humiliating Dance of Pick Me!)
The goal of cake is not to choose. Chumps often go painful round after painful round as the cheater commits to the marriage and then retreats. Swears to be faithful to the spouse, and then is caught again with the AP. Makes promises to both the chump (and the AP), and breaks them. The cheater is NOT trying to decide between two people the cheater is trying to maintain cake. Cake eaters are NOT confused. They are deliberately trying to maintain an unfair situation at your expense.
Cake eaters act vague. They need time. They appeal to you for patience. They feel very, very sorry for themselves. Theyll assert that theyre trying very hard to appease you (theyre not, but they may throw you a bone like marriage counseling, or sex, or paying attention to their children), but youre soooo unreasonable with your demands. Cake eaters are defensive when you question their commitment or the sincerity of their remorse. They really just want you to leave them alone and let them get back to the business of eating cake.
He'd notice it though if his wife didn't come home.
Because he loves her more than he loves you. He would have left years ago if that hadn't been the case.
Thank goodness she's successful, financially independent of this loser and has much more going on in her life than him. I'd have thought that was something to celebrate in a woman, not sneer at her .
There is no 'the strength, courage or wherewithal to leave his family', for him.
For him, it's all just peachy.
You OP are the one who is dissatisfied! Wow, ten and a half years of denying your own deep needs for commitment, to be ecxlusive, publicly loved and declared, ten and a half years of going along with his agenda and of suppressing your own, ten and a half years of being a little secret because it isn't what he wants.
But that is what narcissists and selfish people do (and cheating is a narcissistic act): make me feel good! Don't have needs that I am not interested in!
It must be hard for you, OP.
So why hasnt he left his wife?
Perhaps because it wouldnt be so 'passionate' without all the sneaking around.
Mexicanhat I feel I'm ready to try again as both our children are much older and I'm able to socialise moreso than I was able 10yrs ago looking after four small children. Although a single parent, I have worked full time since my youngest was 5yrs old. I've also been incredibly selfish as I was happy to let things ride because our relationship fitted in with 'my' needs due to my commitment to my children.
ImperialBlether he did leave after our third year together and moved into rented accommodation nearby. It pains me to say, his children were devastated and fate intervened: he had an accident soon after, where he required 24hr care. Sadly I was unable to give it to him and he had no choice but to return home. I desperately wanted him to stay at home for his children. I'm not proud and felt we would try again when the youngest was much older and of an age to understand.
After much discussion, I guess I was happy the way things were because his wife is barely at home.
Levenheath A successful career is indeed nothing to be sneered at but as we all know, women cannot have it all!! Due to her success, it means she is rarely at home and has relied on her husband to be the Primary carer/parent as well as holding down his full time job! Alas, if she pays more attention to her career rather than her husband/family, affairs happen (i'm not condoning either of our behaviour but if an attraction is strong, its hard to ignore) and moreso, if she's never at home.
Has he told you that he doesn't have sex with his wife? He is simply having his cake and eating it. He doesn't want it it end, why would he? He isn't going to make it easy for you and of course he doesn't want you to move away. I suspect it would take being found out to make any change.
youve both got it good havent you.
If he wants to leave his wife now, would you even take him on?
Yes yes Gehj, his wife is the career oriented bitch and you are his angel of delight. She is the reason why you both vulnerable beings were driven into having an affair.
But when it came to caring for the accident ridden love of your life, you chose to send him back to that hard nosed bitch.
You both sound lovely
where he required 24hr care
Who provided that care ? His mum
not the so called, ever absent, work obsessed wife I presume?
She could have provided care in her home or his new one couldn't she ?
Funny how you haven't responded to my points, Gehj.
As a cheated-upon-wife (2007 -2009 discovery, 'reconciliation' - 2013 rediscovery) I can assure you that cake is the sought after state.
If OW is so wonderful, why isn't he there? Answer: because he DOESN'T WANT TO.
He wants both. Family life, with side-dish enhanced admiration/fuck.
Now I have decided that I [the other-side-of-your-coin] am worth far more than this disrespect? He is devastated and STILL doesn't want the OW.
Take care, OP. You are as much of a chump as the wife is.
Obv he will never leave his missis which is a shame because, frankly, you deserve each other. I don't know how people can sleep at night sometimes when they are behaving in such a selfish, underhand way. The poor wife has been living a lie for a decade.
i'm not condoning either of our behaviour but if an attraction is strong, its hard to ignore
Oh give over.
You are not 15. You have children. You have long risked them being dragged into a really messy and tense situation. You are supposed to put their needs (for low tension) before your wants for "romance". You can't even begin to do that if you are so busy justifying your choices by blathering on about the improbability of being able to resist attraction.
If you want out...get out.
Reach inside, take the strength you used to ignore everybody else's feelings and put it to better work by staying away from and going no contact.
It takes steely determination and a certain emotional coldness to choose the things you have chosen at the expence of others thus far, so it's not like you are ill equipped to choose differenet if that is what you actually want.
guessing his wife doesn't want "it all" just not being cheated on and/or lied to would be a nice start
So he's staying with his wife because she is the income earner - wouldn't be so much fun if he had to stand on his own two feet and be the main income earner for you and your 4 kids as well would it.
I sincerely hope that you haven't been allowing him to buy you presents for the last 10 years with his wifes hard earned money.
Because that's just a bit tacky isn't it?
The quickest way to end it would be to get him to leave his wife and move in with you and your kids, see how you manage then, I doubt his wife would be keen to bankroll your little lovenest - you see the "honeymoon period" is easy to keep up indefinitely when you don't actually have to deal with the day to day routine.
I think this is a wind up, no-one is this out of touch with reality.....
I particularly love the bit where he left his wife but then had to go back because he was ill and you couldn't be bothered with him then.
OP, you are in denial, you aren't listening to the majority on here. These threads always go the same way. Perhaps you are feeling a bit lonely and cheesed off this week, so thought you'd start a thread. Go and get some counselling for your ragged self esteem. That should do it.
wellwobbly didn't respond to your earlier post as it was all fairly lengthy and if you'd stopped after the first sentence, I would have got it!! You're not a solicitor are you?
I appreciate all the 'having his cake and eating it comments'. Its nothing short of what I expected but I posted for some advice on finding the strength to leave? Not to hear name calling which is rather unhelpful of you wellwobbly (I don't see myself as a chump having successfully raised four children on my own whilst holding down a full time job) all rather with ease. The three eldest are also successful in their own right, with one currently at University so I've not played the victim and oh woe is me for the past 10yrs .
Carpe Vinum his children provided the bulk of his care and realistically, I don't think any wronged-wife would have provided care in his new home that he'd just left the old one for!
Just reading everyone's somewhat truthful, hard-hitting comments (im glad they have not been too gentle) as they are enough to strengthen my resolve to leave. Ive done all the necessary, deleted phone numbers etc. thats all I can do for now as I don't do Fb or any other social website.
Thank you Cogito as your comment really helped. I will do some research for the programme which helps people with addictions. Was your friend C successful?
his children provided the bulk of his care
Well I can see exactly why you are so smitten.
Causes terrible pain to his kids by leaving, but comes back becuase he wants them to play nurse.
Poor little sods, with a dad like that, who needs enemies.
So given the timeline his kids were 11-14 when you left them to look after him after he'd left his wife to be with you. Or did his wife really look after him, but you don't want to admit that?
You have a very pragmatic approach to life don't you?
He isn't the love of your life though, he's just been around and available to take you out and service you occasionally. I'm sure it suited you, but don't dress it up as anything remotely romantic.
Just as an aside, and a not very helpful one at that, deleting phone numbers is a joke. I tried that once, when my ex was being an arse. Trouble is, it was indelibly hardwired into my brain, as I'm sure his is in yours.
I think it's going to take more than that.
So 7 years ago he up and left an 11 and a 14 year old who were his world devastated by leaving them with their mother who was never there for them.
He then went back and an 11 and 14 year old provided 24 hour care
Looks like they weren't as important to him as you make out until he needed something.
Wouldn't have been so easy for him if his wife wasn't out doing the earning would it. Paying for the roof over his head, the food in his belly, the hot water in his shower.
Uuum, op you seem totally full of yourself yet lacking all sense of responsibility at the same time, I can't believe this is for real.
" (I don't see myself as a chump having successfully raised four children on my own whilst holding down a full time job)"
Well lots of single mothers raise kids and work and can do it without demonstrating to those children how to lead a life of treachery, what sort of relationship model have you given your children and what strength their moral compass?
" I know it was morally wrong to become involved with a married man but the attraction was strong and I didn't for one moment, think it would span out 10years!!! How do I find the strength to leave a relationship that provides me with everything that a woman would relish except commitment! i.e love, companionship, support, fun and anything that a newlywed would be proud of."
Really op you seem so very entitled and proud of what you have done. Perhaps a little realism would help you begin to value yourself properly. Without even starting on your obvious disdane for the woman this man took vows with (and your missing empathy) I feel that you must realise that wasting a decade on a person whose primary hobby is decieving those closest to him is nothing to be proud of.
I pity you and your empty life and hope you can retrieve your self esteem from the drain it is circling.
"Alas, if she pays more attention to her career rather than her husband/family, affairs happen"
Yes, partners with demand careers are just asking to be cheated on!
Oh crap! Sorry to be reading such hate-filled posts with venom. I seem to have hit a nerve with this thread. I'm truly sorry if its caused offence. I guess the more I post about details, the more you seize the opportunity to vent your spleen and state such rubbish i.e is he/she providing finances to me and my children NO!! Who needs enemies with a dad like that!! How is this helpful? Your anger is blinding the facts. It is their dad who has raised the children providing stability all their lives.
This thread was not about WHY the affair took place, WHY it continued for such a long time, but advice was asked HOW to leave?
I do not suffer from low-self esteem, I do have a social life, I do have a respectable full-time job and he is high earning dedicated father.
So, without wishing to get into a 'lets defend myself' situation, unless you have anything useful to add to Cogito first post, it would be nice to hear from someone who perhaps has been in the same situation but judging by your posts, they are probably too afraid
I have seen other discussions on here from women wanting to end the affair, and have been struck by the practical and sympathetic advice offered.
Do you think there might be something about what you are saying that is causing a different reaction here?
TBH I wonder whether you should continue the affair. If you stop, you are lumbering some poor other woman (either his long suffering "have it all" wife, or the next conquest) with him.
There is so much wrong with your last post I don't know where to start. You are naive in the extreme if you thought your thread would be a cosy little chat, but having said that, I don't see the venom. I'm not venting my spleen on you. I, and others, are telling you that you are not listening.
What exactly do YOU think you can do to "leave" this affair?
I think the point you seem to be avoiding op is that perhaps the general attitude towards your conduct should be enough for you to end the affair and try to better yourself.
Also I see no hate on this thread or anger just disbelief, revulsion and pity.
Whilst you continue this affair you have low self worth.
Ive been having an affair for the last 3 years and I know EXACTLY where you are coming from.
I have also ready similar threads on here and could cry with frustration at some of the venim spouted.
'just stop seeing him'
'you are scum'
'think about what you are doing to his poor children'
'find your own man'
'its not real love, its infatuation'
Not helpful at all.
I dont actually think anyone could understand how it feels to be in an affair unless they have actually been in one.
I know I am in love with my MM. I am quite certain he is in love with me too.
MN is possibly not the bext place for advice as there are so many wronged wives, but sometimes you would think that having an affair was on a par to murder or child molestation by some of the anger you see on here!!
Im sorry OP, I dont have any actual advice for you, I would love to have the magic answers and if you find them, please do let me know!
I knew I was taking a chance before I posted on here and expected a hard-hitting debate as it were. Affairs begin at home, because either the wife/husband may/may not have tried everything they can to improve their lives at home. Some wives have been known to be unhappy but stay because they think its in the best interests of the children. Some people may agree/disagree that this necessarily is not the best move as it often brings more unhappiness throughout their lives. In this case, it is the husband who has stayed and did his best to give his children the best he could. I have found myself in a situation where I have tried to leave but have been unable to. I am not proud, I know its wrong (I have said as such), so remember, when you are posting and venting your spleen because you may have been hurt in the past, each story is different and comes with different circumstances. I thank those who have been helpful.
Oh FFS, I had an affair with a MM many many years ago
when I was fucking deluded, inexperienced, you name it so I certainly know "how it feels to be in an affair".
You are wallowing OP, and it appears you're not the only one.
erm no. I'd direct a lo more venom at those people. In fact I think the man in this situation is ten times worse than the OP too.
Imnotscared, thank you for your post and reassuring me that I'm not the only woman in the world to be having an affair. I've said all there is to say but hopefully, if I'm successful in leaving, I will surely get back to you. Good luck with your man x
Peppermint well done for ending it and becoming so bitter towards everyone else who is doing exactly the same thing.
Sounds a bit like ex-smokers who cannot tolerate smokers.
How about a bit of understanding?
Gehj you most certainly arent and I would expect a few PM's
Even if I were to end my affair tomorrow I would never judge anyone who chose to have an affair.
Of course it is 'wrong' in the eyes of most people, but it really isnt murder. There are much much worse things people do on a daily basis and as you said nobody knows the true circumstances except you and him.
Living with someone 24/7 is totally different from what you have now...that's why it's still so passionate
Er, how am I bitter? What a ridiculous thing to say. I'm fine thanks.
Look, like it or not, you are living in a little bubble of your own making.
The OP apparently started this thread to get advice about ending it, advice which she has so far manfully ignored.
You will get many helpful posts, just try and ignore the nasty ones.
And then be prepared for being told that 'you wont listen' if you dont post that you are truly sorry and you will be going to shoot yourself shortly.
You have now been told that you are ignoring the advice !!!!
How exacty is the OP 'ignoring the advice' if I may ask?
Genuine advice here...
Contact his wife and tell her everything. You will be doing her, and yourself a favour.
He will show you exactly who he is, because I'll bet my next months mortgage payment that he'll want to work things out with her and you'll be history.
10.5 years wasted. The kids are old enough to leave but now he has the convenient excuse of an elderly mum. Wonder what excuse he'll come up with when she dies?
He loves his wife more than he loves you. It's that simple. So tell her, and let him prove it to you.
Gehj I hope that you find the strength to do what YOU need to do
OP if you really wanted to leave then you would
How about going abroad for a while, fill your head with new sights and sounds, distract yourself with all the wonderful things life has to offer.
I've never had an affair but I've found a good way of keeping away from an unsuitable partner is to make a list of all his bad points and keep looking at it every time I feel a bit weak. Actually, make 2 lists - the first one has all his bad points and faults, the second should contain everything you want in a new future partner (commitment etc). Keep the lists close by and remind yourself that you deserve much better than a selfish, lying, cheating, scumbag.
I am not meaning to be cruel here, honestly.
You are with him because you like the drama. And because you havnt worked out that the drama is a result of the "can't have".
In the meantime you are throwing your life away fir a man who us selfish enough to see you waiting in the shadows for crumbs.
He is never leaving. Never. He has too cosy a set up at home, with even his family installed there. His wife is too useful, he isn't going to turn that into a mess.
mouldy Thank you. That sounds good. I promise to try that and at least whilst I'm on here, I'm not on my mobile to him!
I'm on holiday from work for the next two weeks so I'm hoping to do a little decorating to keep me busy.
Onefewer I feel as if the thread has become less personal now, thank you. I agree, hes never going to leave and I have reached a point in my life, I'm ready to move on. I know its been an addiction but a welcome addiction, a distraction from single parenting and hes been a great support. Yes, if he left, I would be only to happy to start a new phase in my life but I know that's not going to happen so I'm still only too glad to hear this.
Also, try visualising him telling his wife that he loves her. I'm sure he's very convincing, otherwise how would he have kept you hanging on for a whole decade?
He may become a pest once he realises you are serious about ending things. Is it possible to change your phone number and email address? I know this from a friend's experience. Her mm sent flowers, phoned regularly and generally proved to be a nuisance once his cosy set-up changed. Hopefully, this mm is slightly less persistent!
Have pm'd you OP. I can recommend Paul McKenna's I Can Mend Your Broken Heart as a way to disengage, disconnect and move on. Good Luck.
I seem to have hit a nerve with this thread
Of course you have. So many people trodden on, left unconsidered and hurt, becuase of you and him. Some of them powerless small people who get to live with the fall out of choices made by the people WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO LOVE THE MOST. Instrad of being loved and protected they are set aside as some kind of collatoral damage to an overgrown teenager romance.
You post is all about you. It's like in your mind everybody bar you and him are just cardboard cutouts decorating the drama you are trying to create instead of living a life.
The book MexicanHat recommended, it also comes with a CD but it won't work if you don't read or listen to them!
Only start the above if you genuinely want to finish things otherwise there is no point.
You'll never be able to give him up OP until your willing to give up the myths of your relationship.
You have constructed the age old 'star-crossed lovers' narrative for yourself; he's wonderful, your wonderful, your feelings are extraordinary and impossible for normal people to comprehend and were it not for a set of tragic and insurmountable circumstances, you would be entwined in each others arms till the end of time. Of course any good story needs a villain and the the cold, heartless inattentive wife fits the bill nicely whilst allowing you and he to play the role of noble hero and ethereal heroine who sacrafice true love for the greater good.
It's very sad and romantic. It's also total bollocks.
You met a man who wants the stability and comfort of a marriage alongside the thrill of a girlfriend. He met a women that needed attention and companionship (nothing wrong with that) but who also whose ego needed bolstering and feeling superior to another women has done that. You would be so much better for him than her, if only the stars would align.
Except the stars have aligned, or at least you thought they were about too until he throws in yet another obstacle and your subconscious is starting to whisper to you that perhaps this story you have been telling yourself, is just that - a story.
He's not the long suffering, ever giving, gift of a husband and he's staying in the marriage because he is fulfilled by it and has no desire to lose his wife. Your great as an added bonus but that's it. That's all you are to him. Your not his perfect women. He doesn't cry into his pillow at night or gaze up at the moon lamenting the fact that he didn't meet you first. He. Is . Happy.
Your not though and you will always be second best until you open yourself up to the reality of the lies you have told yourself and that you have allowed yourself to believe.
Giving those up will be hard but if you manage it, giving him up will be a piece of piss.
I agree with cold turkey.
Change your contact details and get out and about to take your mind off it.
If you feel you are faltering just imagine the trauma, pain and long lasting damage that would be caused to innocent people if this was ever to be discovered. That should be enough
Wahla, I dont see anywhere where the OP has said anything about a romatic love story.
I believe that you have lifted that straight from a self-help book for betrayed spouses
They have been seeing each other for 10 years. its not a teenage romance, ,amny marriages last for less time.
The OP has never paited the wife as a villian either, she just happened to mention that she was a career woman who does not spend much time with her husband.
How do you know that they arent deeply in love and have a set of circumstances in the way?
Aside from any of that the OP has suggested that she wants to end things, it is extremely patronising to make out this is some sort of silly crush, they have been in a relationship for TEN YEARS.
I actually think Wahla's advice is spot on....& so damn true. Affairs are all a load of bollocks.
You will NOT meet anyone else whilst he is filling the sex and company hole. You just won't. Your head won't be in it or your heart.
So why wait for him to decide?
It is your life. You need to accept that you are putting it on hold all by yourself.
Affairs are a load of bollocks
Wahla didnt actually give any advice, that was just a made up opinion of the OPs affair based on nothing whatsoever.
You say you are not on the thread to discuss why you had the affair but in your posts you've said you have difficulty ending it. Therefore why you are having the affair is important. Your beliefs are what informs your actions and we are saying we think your beliefs are deluded.
You are deluded OP. I'm an impartial stranger on the internet so I'm objective as are most on this thread. You are not objective OP.
You've framed events to flatter your core belief that (I'm drawing this from what you've written) you two are 'special' irresistably attracted, star crossed lovers. You use words like 'passion' and 'addiction' as though these things are exceptional and others can't understand.
Forgive me if I splutter with laughter but come on OP. It's all so bloody textbook and corny. It's teenage.
You make all this excuses about external forces keeping you apart and his accident preventing the completion of his leaving his family. It wasnt external forces, come out of denial. If he wanted to be with yo, he would. It's that simple. You're not lovers cleaved in twain by cruelest fate you're just ordinary living an ordinary, predictable story.
Now why am I 'spouting all this venom', well before you trot out some waffle about jealousy or bitterness listen. I'm saying all this because this is what you need to start seeing and understanding in order to leave. To leave and stay gone you have to want to.
You have to know yourself and why you did this. You have to stop flattering yourself with the way you are painting and trying to present this. You have to move into reality. Yes, it will be painful but it's you who wants it to stop, so it's you who has to do the actual work and that starts with some self examination.
I would recommend some cognitive behavioural therapy because I don't think you are as self aware as you might be.
I will finish by saying how ridiculous some of the stuff you've written is, for example Alas, if she pays more attention to her career rather than her husband/family, affairs happen (i'm not condoning either of our behaviour but if an attraction is strong, its hard to ignore) and moreso, if she's never at home.
That made me piss myself laughing, it reminded me of every cheater ever that is caught on Gerry Springer etc shouting in defence you were never home, it's your fault I cheated Embarassing OP.
Also I don't believe he left the wife that time, I think he was kicked out and managed to worm his way back in.
Imnot - never read a self help book in my life, on any subject and to my knowledge, nor have I ever been cheated on - try again.
Yes she has painted the wife as the villain. Her MM strayed because his wife wasn't a good enough wife, that's what the OP said, not me. Not once has she recognised the deceit and the lack of care for his family and general lack of moral character that is inherent in a person that can sustain a long term affair like this one.
They're in love and the victims of circumstances. This is not true of her life and it is not true of yours. If they loved you they would leave.
Neither of you will find the strength to demand something better for yourselves until you can find the strength to face the lies you have been complicit with.
If they loved you they would leave
Life isnt always as simple and as black and white as that.
And not all OW demand that they do.
Life isnt always as simple and as black and white as that.
Meh, I only ever see that trite little line written by women deluding themselves about their affairs and why their married men, won't leave their marriages.
But about anything else to do with the affair, they are only too happy to deliver 'black and white' pronouncements about issues that are far murkier and completely incapable of corroboration. Such as the man's marriage is lousy, his wife doesn't care for him enough, he doesn't love her and is only with her for the children.
I bet when this man's children became adults, he was shitting himself because he'd at last get called on his bullshit stories at long last. He must be hoping more than most sons that his mother stays well for many more years and probably shits himself even more if she gets as much as a cold
Imnot you seem to be taking this very personally.
If someone is selfish enough to cheat on their wife, but isn't willing to leave then that's because they are better off where they are.
None of this is anything to do with love, it's to do with convenience. Which would be fine if everyone knew the truth, but with affairs there is usually a husband or wife who doesn't know.
Im not taking it personally, im just fed up of reading the same old crap souted at someone who is brave enough to come on here and ask a question.
Lying to people you profess to love is a shitty thing to do. That's pretty black and white.
Thats true, cant argue with that
Also, isn't it a bit rich to lambast his wife for putting her career before her husband and family and spending barely any time at home, when you say that he's in a 'high-earning' full-time career himself, but still finds the time to see his mistress 2-3 times a week and have daily contact with her for the past 10 years?
I can see only one person in that marriage who's been absent for the majority of the time, both in person and emotionally - and it's not his wife. How bloody dare you criticise a woman for earning money for her family, while not criticising a man who's also worked full time and has been spending that much time with you, his other woman. Sickening.
Gehj, you HAVE to get out of this. Your post is the first step. I had a similar thread and received great advice. In summary what I took from it was:
He is lying to you. He could be with you if he wanted, no matter what his circumstances. There is nothing that would stand in his way. Do you really want a man that could be so gutless that he still hasn't made his mind up after TEN YEARS. Why is it his decision anyway? You make the move to move on.
You have wasted TEN YEARS on this guy - you could've been meeting someone worthy! Don't waste a second longer! It is tragic you have wasted so much time and energy.
It will be a bereavement for you and obviously extremely difficult but you MUST DO THIS.
When you are ready NO CONTACT is the only way to go. You have to find the strength.
you are posting and venting your spleen because you may have been hurt in the past, each story is different and comes with different circumstances
Think about this statement. Look at the double standard you've applied here.
You dismiss the posts you dislike as people 'venting their spleen' and assign a reason to what you perceive as the posters anger. You decide that they (posters) are all wronged wives and so can be ignored/dismissed as not being objective and not seeing the nuance in your very, special and unique circumstances. You tar them all with the same brush.
Yet you then expect those same posters you dismissed with a stroke of your tar brush to not tar you with the same brush as every other OW, but to appreciate that each story is different and comes with different circumstances
You are the one who came on here asking how to change. Yet when people start to explore your thinking/beliefs (which is causing your actions) you baulk and question their credentials to judge you. Posters here don't have to give you any credentials. You asked for help and hard as this seems for you to believe this is the beginning of your journey out of these circumstances.
The journey starts with hard truths. Because until you forget your ego and learn about your own bias you won't be able to see the affair for what it is and you won't be able to stop it.
You mention the physical attraction between you more than once. You seem to be focused on that inparticular and you seem to believe this is a rare thing. It's not though is it. It's not hard to find mind blowing sex with any number of people. Millions in fact.
I also think that you like to believe that you have chosen this part-time-lover schtick as you are the one in control and it suited you but somewhere else you mention that you get together 2 or 3 times a week when circumstances allow. So you're just fitting it in when schedules allow, like everyone really. You want to feel you are a slick handler of him when really that's not the case. If you were really in control and just wanted sex at your convenience you'd have someone who was always available.
The point of all this armchair psychology is you are framing things to fit with a fantasy in your head. But there seems to be a lot of disparity between the way you describe them to yourself and then unwittingly reveal at other times are not so.
As I said CBT will help you get to the truth of all this and why you are making half arsed shitty choices. Once you understand that you can start to really change.
JMO but I don't think that the reason husbands don't usually leave is to do with love! I think it's to do with not wanting the upheaval or the disapproval or the bad feeling or the acrimonious divorce, or the loss of their children's respect, and seeing less of their children I reckon quite often the men 'love' (whatever that is as prince Charles would say) the OW. but what is love? 9 times out of ten it's being with somebody who makes YOU feel good about yourself, who you're attracted to who's attracted to YOU. so tbh I'd be inclined to say that it's love that's bollix. That doesn't mean I don't think that the OP shouldn't kick him to the kerb. Take it one day at a time and keep busy. I'd hate to have such a secret.
The whys etc aside, leaving him is like giving up smoking or kicking any bad habit, if you want to enough, you will do it. Go and get your needs fulfilled elsewhere, go dating. He has somebody else, his wife. Find somebody else if that is what it will take.
scarletforya It was simple for me to begin an affair as I was newly divorced. As main parent, he took his children to school and it was there we began our friendship. I was as shocked as he was when our attraction became deeper.
I don't wish to drip feed but he was also a sports coach and he coached my son and I told my children of our relationship when they were old enough to understand (they were approx aged 7-13). He has always been involved in the domestics of my family, caring and loving to my children which had only deepened my love for him.
When he tried to leave the first time, he told his wife he loved her because she was the mother of his children, but no longer in love with her. I can only assume she was happy to let him stay because he was the main carer whilst she was at work and she was not strong enough to kick him out. For whatever reasons, I agree this relationship has solely been to my benefit as well as his, as I have been on the other side of the flip coin. He has fulfilled my needs, both physically and emotionally. My children adore him and have not made a comment to me personally over the years such as "Hey mum, when are you going to get a man of your own" or such like. If they disapprove, they have not voiced their opinion as they know he has been supporting and loving to me over the years. If you deem me as selfish as he is, I accept that. I had just come out of a bitter divorce and I guess I was happy to grasp a little fun that was coming my way. As I said, I did not expect it to last more than a few days!!
if his kids are grown-up, he's free to leave isn't he, his mother isn't the issue as theoretically you could all live together. Is he staying for financial reasons? If not, then he does love his wife, so let him be.
tell him that the affair can not continue, that now the kids are grown you want and deseve a proper relationship, and if he's not willing to divorce, then tell him to stop contact and stop messing you about. If he ever were to leave his wife (in case there is no love there), it's BECAUSE you walk away and mean it. But start looking for a new man. tbh I really don't like the sound of him - spineless!
Some of these statements are so deluded:
"They have been seeing each other for 10 years. its not a teenage romance, ,amny marriages last for less time."
no, he has been cheating on his wife for 10 years, with who knows how many women!
" Affairs begin at home"
you mean a big boy done it and run away? Stop making excuses!
" he does not have the strength, courage or wherewithal to leave his family"
no he just does not have the desire to!
and then all the nonsense about your man this your mm that, he is not yours - that's the whole point.
Sorry but any man is his own man and if he chooses to cheat then that is what it is - a choice - to be a dirtbag. If he or his heart belongs to anyone then that person would be his wife - who he promised to be faithful to - not the chump who is stupid enough to loiter in the wings for some chewed up leftovers.
You can dress it up anyway you want but an affair is just sordid and demeaning for everyone involved and frankly any woman who puts up with being kept a secret shame needs help.
Is that enough for you to call it quits op?
When he tried to leave the first time, he told his wife he loved her because she was the mother of his children, but no longer in love with her. I can only assume she was happy to let him stay because he was the main carer whilst she was at work and she was not strong enough to kick him out
You only have his word for what he says he 'told' his wife. Also, don't assume she was happy to let him stay because.....bla, bla, bla, yada'
How many times have we read threads on here where the husband is telling the OW a load of claptrap. The wife is a cold fish who just wants to use him for childcare and was too weak to let him go even though he didn't love her.......it's boring, predictable, a script.
Why are you believing all this stuff he says as fact!?
No offence but your/his selfishness is not the point. Forget that. The point is he's blowing a load of smoke up your arse and you're believing it!
Think about it. Read all the hundreds of threads on affairs on here. The cheaters always say the marriage is dead and portray the wife as the villian. Always.
As for all this support and emotional needs stuff he did for your kids. Wow. This man gets a lot done in a day eh!
Top earner, high flying career, his kids, his wife, you, your kids, coaching the team. Wow.
You told your 7-11 year old children that you were having an affair with a MM & their coach.
And (as you haven't bothered to discuss), you expected his 11-14 year old children to look after him when he became ill.
What do you expect either set of children to take from this? There moral compass will be shot to pieces.
confused, this is not always the case in life, is it? It's not always sordid and a man doesn't always love his wife - plenty of examples where he does leave and gets married to the OW and they last, I know quite a few. BUT of course hte man is much more decisive in these cases and makes up his mind after a year or two max. People do make mistakes marrying the wrong person sometimes, and they often realise it after meeting someone else - yes, it's horrid, but happens to many younger people especially.
I just hate these weak men who set up these cosy scenarios for themselves while both women are hoping for something (or the wife doesn't even know). And then they wine how they want to be good to all involved so they can't decide <yuk>.
Apologies "their moral compass will be shot to pieces".
I hope to god my kids never meet any of them, it's the fact that you have no shame about what you're doing........
Your ex must have really hurt you.
OMG I really think you need help. How can you not know it is totally inappropriate to tell your kids you are shagging their coach and let him be in their lives on a personal level?
I was with you op until I read you told your dc about the mm how odd.
I'm not choosing to accept nor disapprove of anyones post. I've seen posters on here who have received such hard hitting comments that they have closed down their thread because they are too vulnerable to deal with them. I'm listening hard to each of your comments and I am taking on board what you say. The reason I chose to ask advice on here was to hear impartial advice as all my friends just take it for granted his existence and our relationship. They have always been supportive. If I'm honest, my intentions to end the affair have never worked before probably because I was too busy enjoying the benefits it brings. Yes, great sex, chat, laughter, support. Yes, it was hard to give all that up. I have also kept up my own social life and so i didn't see it as a problem.
irisScented, everything you have said in your post is the reason why I never asked him to leave after his first attempt (was his own choice). It caused so much hurt all round to his family, that I was happy for him to stay as I didn't see it as a problem. He has never once let me down and as I was busy bringing up my young family, I didn't want the added complications a step-parent would bring. Selfish? Yes, but I am not the first person to begin a relationship for ones own needs. Ten years is a long time and during this time, our own personal needs and desires have changed over the years. I no longer need him (as i viewed the relationship in the early stages to bring excitement to my life after divorce) but that doesn't stop me loving him.
Incidentally, Im an ex-smoker and found it easy to stop because I wanted to. I am not a quitter and will do my utmost to be as strong now as I was then
Not sure what advice you need, you clearly think you've got it sorted.
Well done you
But his wife was not bothered whether he was in love with her or not and only wanted him for the childcare as she was never around then surely they could have divorced? He could be the RP, thus maintaing the same level of childcare and she would see the kids as much as she ever did.
Win, win with the added bonus that nobody is scuttling around telling dirty little lies anymore and you get your guy.
Unless it's all a load of twaddle of course. But he wouldn't lie though, would he? At least not to you. I mean he may well to lie to his wife because he loves her but isn't in love with her and everybody knows that if you are in love it becomes physically impossible to lie .
Wake up OP, he has led round by the nose for ten years. If you truly want to move on from him then you need to see him for what he is. A cheat and a liar, nothing less and certainly nothing more.
That bit about your kids also made me squirm op, really what an utter sleaze you have wasted a decade on and polluted your children with, he sounds rank.
flutter, this may be seen as old-fashioned but I think someone who is married should not be looking in the first place and marriage is about more than love!
Sure sometimes people marry the wrong person, or decide to be elsewhere - in which case they should finish their marriage before starting something else. I know it doesn't always work out that way but the majority of affair threads on mn seem to suggest that cheaters cheat until they get caught and quite often it is just for the 'excitement' factor (so it would seem from the ow here too!) which means actually the subject is not love at all but deceit and the drama that goes along with it.
Regardless of the circumstances (and yes drunken slips will happen) there has to be an acceptance of responsibility from all involved in purposefully deceiving someone in this manner, particularly with regard to a long term affair. You say a year or two like it is nothing, if someone is going home and lying to their husband or wife for that length of time then they are at best deluded about the harm they are doing and at worst purposefully causing harm by being manipulative and duplicitous. Who wants to be with someone like that? For that reason I call this behaviour for what it is, sordid;
1.morally ignoble or base; vile: sordid methods.
2.meanly selfish, self-seeking, or mercenary.
3.dirty or filthy.
4.squalid; wretchedly poor and run-down: sordid housing.
VBisme I clearly needed advice or I wouldn't have asked. I have received lots of advice and will put it into practice.
hashtag, i told my children, rightly or wrongly, as they were asking questions as to why he was having coffee in my home and spending time with me. I didn't make myself clear, I told the eldest two who were 13 and 12. Children are very resilient and this did not affect them in anyway. To them, he merely became a family friend.
"He has never once let me down"
op I thought you said you wanted him to leave his wife, and he hasn't, so isn't that letting you down?
You've been his secret shame for a decade, is that not letting you down?
If you were my friend I would tell you that no woman deserves this level of doormatting!
"He has never once let me down"
Well he hasn't left his wife, but then you let him down in a BIG way by not supporting him when he was ill after he left his wife.
What I don't get in all this is why you've suddenly decided to end it.
If I were you I'd focus on building your relationship with your kids and trying to ensure that they understand what a normal loving monogamous relationship is (although I think they are too old now).
Ah ok, so you never actually wanted a relationship with him... except you keep talking about him leaving or not leaving his wife which suggests to me that you are rationalising your feelings in order to minimise the feelings of rejection that are inevitable after ten years of wasted life and love (and not just your own).
You gave up the fags because you realised that you were hurting yourself and those you loved with your actions. This is no different OP - when you come to terms with that, then you will be able to leave this black hole of a relationship behind. As said above, get some therapy and work on your feelings of self worth.
I think the emphasis of my part in this affair is clear. I have no doubt that he has lied to his wife - I haven't said otherwise.
I have been selfish - he has fulfulled my needs.
He has been selfish - he has lied to his wife.
I'm not deluded - I agree with majority of your comments.
I was stuck on how to let go. How to give up what I saw and has been a great relationship for the last ten years but I'm stronger now my children have grown up, I want more from life.
I haven't got it all sorted. My children are now aged 16-21 and are all grounded and have not been effected (I don't think) by my affair.
He has been loving and attentive and yes, I don't know he has managed to live a double life thus far either.
I am happy to update some time in the future and hopefully I will be rid of my man.
So many thoughts here will try to get them out in some sort of logical way.
Firstly he is just not that into you,it's simple if he was he would be with you.Secondly I get so annoyed with this we just couldn't keep away from each other ,you could and can.You fancy him and have great sex ,I promise that has happened to most off us, me included but drama like this is a turn off to most people I really couldn't be arsed.
You make him out to be this wonderful guy,and maybe he does have good qualities but he has kept you second best for years ,if he loves his kids so much why did he spend their childhood having liaisons with you?
I am a single parent have been for 10 years and have worked too,you are using this as a ticket to behave really badly in the rest of your life. Telling your kids was wrong.Our kids by the nature of both our families have experienced loss and sadness ,as a woman in a similar situation to you I wouldn't dream of adding to my children's psyche such a messed up message.
You are not powerless in this ,not at all .A good man sacrifices for his family and puts them first.Saying he is doing this is not the same as actually doing it.A good man who loves you wouldn't have let you hang around like this.
As someone impartial a lot of what you are saying isn't logical you have spun a story and it has become true in your head.You need to end this where is the happiness? the joy? real belonging and togetherness? Be kind to yourself it doesn't sound like many people have been. Do the right thing you know what it is.
I don't actually wish to be negative, but after all you've written, I don't think you're going to make it. And referring to him as "your man" is really rather telling, IMO.
Good luck to you op. Remember;
he isn't your man
you've taught you children how to cheat and be cheated on
you have not been in a great relationship you have been used
he has been manipulative not loving and attentive
you have been played
keep this list to hand to help you start making better choices and ffs get some cbt or at the very least take a relate course so you can take off the rose tinted glasses.
I have to say I second the suggestion that it is about time you told his wife and let her have some choices in her life too, a letter would suffice (with any evidence if you have it because you know he is playing her too).
I knew a woman (aquaintance) whose best friend was having affair with mm, this woman told everyone she knew what a total slut her supposed bff was and how sorry she felt for the wife - all along playing best pals with ow - totally two-faced. Getting some therapy may make you re-assess all parts of your life and really you should embrace that, I suspect you have been making a lot of bad choices and hope you can turn it all around and find happiness in yourself for a change.
I am curious how you would advise your DC how to deal with affairs when they are adults? I have teenage DS & DD & I would hate either of them to settle for second best with anyone. Apart from the obvious I think the lies and secrecy would damage them as much as the betrayed person and would stop them from really living their own lives.
I am not an idealist I am single but have lovely friends who have had affairs. They suffered massive guilt which hasn't gone away. I was unfaithful to long-term partner in my twenties. It happened twice and looking back I think I subconsciously wanted to get caught. I was caught and 25 years on I remember how devastated by xbf was and I regret causing that pain.
If you would not advise your DC to do it why do you not care enough about yourself? I hear what you are saying about passion but from my experience I have seen passion when someone nurses me through ill health, loves me even though I have been a complete bitch, has a great laugh with me and listens to me when I am low. I honestly can't judge you but feel for you because you are not putting yourself first. You will get old, all going well, and you might regret those years wasted on someone who is not putting you first. Don't worry about him. Look after yourself whatever you decide to do.
I had an affair when I was young and naive. I believed all the bullshit he spun me, but it was ended uears ago. I still feel awful for the pain I caused his wife and children. I always will.
His children's teenage years will be lies when they find out. As your children will feel the same too.
Find someone who is a decent loving man. Not a cheating arsehole.
Mmm but then again, if he was that much 'into his wife' he wouldn't be doing this, no? Same for any married man or woman that has an affair?
I don't believe that affair partners don't sometimes fall in love. I know it's the preferred notion to assume that it's base and just about sex but I think that's just lashing out and choosing to believe that as some kind of 'salve'.
My friend has been through this and isn't out the other side yet. Her marriage is wobbly, his seems ok, our friendship isn't what it was. There's no doubt that affairs are not a good thing but having seen a lovely person find herself in that position, I ignore the 'stone them' comments as absurd and spiteful.
OP... as you now want to get out of this that should give you the impetus you need. There's been some good advice on this thread. Good luck and strong nerves.
OP, I really am not attacking you. I am telling you that you and I are the opposite sides of the same coin, and that we are both being used and not treated very well.
'Not to hear name calling which is rather unhelpful of you wellwobbly'
I called both of us chumps (idiots who see good in s/one who is not really that good). I didn't call you anything I didn't call myself. Pretty awful name calling innit!
"He has been selfish - he has lied to his wife."
You aren't looking at the other side of the coin - he has lied to you, too.
Sorry we are pointing out difficult things, OP.
Children can appear resilient as they have no other option. You have no idea how seeing their mother have a relationship with a married man is going to effect them in the future.
I sympathise that you are finding it hard to finish things but you aren't really are you? You haven't properly tried previously and you don't really sound like you want too.
If you do, contact him to say you no longer want to be in an affair situation with him and do not want any more contact.
You are in denial when you say your DC have not been affected. Seeing their mum as some man's bit on the side will affect them. They love you and don't want second best for you. This can only can cause sadness for them. Don't underestimate the power of children/young adults to see a situation for exactly what it is. Be kinder to yourself!
Change of number, email address ect.
If he contacts either your non the wiser..
It wont be as hard as you think. Ok you love him but love doesn't always make things right or mean they have to be.
Hope you find what your looking for.
Some people really can justify any hideous behaviour.....it's shocking.
I would recommend the no contact rule from this website if you are serious about all this.
agree that dc would be affected - two young daughters at that! they will see it as acceptable to have affairs with married men, especially as you've been quite happy rather than miserable. You have to have a serious talk with them, once you finish with him, to try to repair he damage, i.e. explain how it was a wrong choice etc.
yes, confused, I know 1-2yrs is a long time, I did say max, many mm decide faster. Not sure people are always looking for something when within wobbly marriage, in OP's case they literally were there at school gates daily so didn't have to make any effort with search. OK, it's sordid from the point of view of lies and selifishness, hurting people, but what I meant - it's not always about a bit of cheap sex or just 'being naughty', sometimes there is falling in love (and these often do end up together, as I've seen). It's not the majority though.
Op you've described a relationship which had many advantages to you as a lone parent - you make it sound initially as if you were calling the shots and you got the convenience and fulfilment of a sexual and living relationship without having the downsides of introducing a man who is not their father into your children's home. Get that, although I don't approve of the fact your partner in this is married.
But actually as you go on you reveal you have involved him in your children's lives (have they been made complicit in keeping this secret? -nice). You've also had discussion about whether he should or would leave his wife. Really it sounds like you've been living a half life with this man, contenting yourself with crumbs and pretending you aren't hungry.
When you're struggling to stick to your guns it would be a good idea to remember he's actually not all that. No doubt he is superficially charming, kind and a good shag. He also sounds weak. And he's a liar.
If you want the affair to end we can help you by telling his wife then when she finds out he'll start grovelling to go back to her ( his working ATM) and you'll see that he doesn't love you n it will all be over
Just a thought
tbm, but why should she hurt another person just because she hasn't got the inclination to stop shagging someone else's husband?
I know the wife is being cheated on but if she doesn't know then at the moment she isn't feeling hurt as such. If the OP, the OW, does tell her than she definitely will be hurt.
If two remarried people fall in love they should admit it to everyone and be together. So many mums leave violent relationships against massive odds putting themselves and DC in very tough circumstances and somehow they manage to leave. I really feel sorry for you agonising over an affair but sort it out if it's so painful. Life can be seriously tough. your OM is damaging everyone around him even if they don't know yet. I don't see him being too damaged spending Christmas day with his actual family, going on hols, meeting all family friends at celebrations, putting on the great family man face to colleagues, neighbours and everyone else. Just tell him you are leaving to see his reaction. If he leaves his wife you will know he loves you. If he doesn't you will know he doesn't.
OP - you might be distracted by the venom that's flying at you, but I think you realise that the reason you want out is that this man's awful.
Not just for the usual cheater reasons, but he's scored a few extra comedy bounder points that you've let slip.
The bit in your story where he abandons his wife and kids then rushes back when he wants nursing is hilarious.
The bit where it turns out the cold career wife is actually supporting him and his children financially is worth a giggle too.
Even when he left his family, he didn't move in with you, did he?
Thought not. You've been used. He doesn't love you, indeed never has, remotely. I don't think he loves his family either, but at least he hasn't used them as any spare hole in a storm for ten years.
Get out. You deserve a lot better than this shit - and you, unlike his poor family, can get it.
MissStrawberry I was suggesting this because I think that it would clear the air completely I wonder if she couldn't compare notes with his wife it would make her resolve stronger and allow his wife to see what a lying cheating barsteward her husband is I think she (the wife) is already very deeply hurt
Am I right in thinking that you met as he took his kids to school....did both sets of kids go to the same school? Do they know each other? Have your children had to keep this secret?
You state facts about knowing it is morally wrong but you just don't seem to feel at all guilty about either the effect on his family or the effect on your children (if you really think that you haven't normalised infidelity for them then you are stupid or extremely naive).
I am incredulous that an affair can go on for ten years, not least because of logistic reasons. If you work and have raised four children alone, let alone his commitments to his family, how have you managed to keep the affair going?
I wonder what he would do if you actually did end it and meant it and never saw him again.
I still disagree with you 100% but it is irrelevant really.
The OP needs to sort her self out.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
yup and possibly under severral names?
stick y keys not just crap spelling!
missStrawberry i have no intention of telling his wife and hurting her and his children a second time.
Corygal we both talked at length and agreed he would move into rented accommodation of his own as my children were rather young at this time (and did not know of him) and I did not wish to impose on them, a new relationship, despite being divorced two years at this time. I have also said that he is a high earner and is not being 'kept' by his wife. I called it fate earlier in my thread as shortly after he moved in, he had an accident at work and was immobilised. His children did not 'nurse' him, but merely did what any child would do and bring water and the odd snack for their Dad. During this time, it was obviously evident the children were thrilled their Dad was home despite the circumstances. We talked and agreed that it would be in the best interests for his children if he stayed.
I have omitted to say: prior to starting this thread, I have already cut contact with him (albeit its only been a few days). The reason I wanted advice was how to maintain that separation. Atm, if I ever weaken, all I will have to do is return to this thread and read your comments and I'm sure they will be enough to help me change my mind should I find myself weakening.
I know this is totally hypocritical but i would without doubt, tell my girls should they find themselves in the midst of an affair or starting an affair, that it would be totally wrong and give them a million reasons why. I have known this is wrong from the get-go but I was enjoying the passion too much too stop.
A case of do as I say, not as I do .
He has told me on numerous occasions that I have tried to cut contact before, that if I change my number or stop answering his calls, he will simply call round to see me as he doesn't want to let me go. We live near each other. I guess I have been flattered by his insistence and the fact that our relationship has been based on love and not purely sex. He has not had a family holiday for the past five years and does not go to many family occasions as he accepts this would be wrong and he doesn't enjoy them. As for all the other occasions, xmas day, birthdays etc we spend my birthday together where possible (if he is not working) and contact during these times has been frequent as any other day.
I assure you this is a genuine thread. I think its lasted this long is because she has either turned a blind eye to what has been going on these past ten years because she loves him and is happy to accept what he brings to her family. I know this sounds incredulous that I can be so matter of fact about the circumstances, but the sad truth is; this is what probably has enabled us to continue this affair so simply without any problems arising. If anything, now the children are older on both sides, we have been able to see more of each other!!! I am serious about giving him up and I will look into the no contact rule. I have never heard of this before.
This gets worse with every post. I think it's far more likely that when your DC get married, they'll identify much more with this man's wife and family and will be disgusted by your joint actions. They might not question it now because this awful set-up has been normalised for them - but they will, when they realise how fucked up it was to have someone else's husband and father so intertwined in their lives when they were growing up.
I don't suppose this prince among men told his wife he was having an affair with you when he allegedly told her he wasn't in love with her and was leaving?
Or that you've got a single piece of evidence to corroborate all these stories about what he's told his wife and how he's been with her all these years?
So do your children know his children? Were they all at the same school?
Yes, she said it was where they met.
'I have already cut contact with him (albeit its only been a few days).'
which paradoxically keeps the fantasy going. (Dave Carder).
It is the push-pull drama that keeps it going; because the nature of affairs is that there is anticipation, passion, best behaviour and NEVER farts under the duvet/scratching bollocks and picking noses, and big spluttery shits that happen in real relationships and all the boring interludes of everyday life.
Tbh Gehj, I must tell you that your and Internet's description of the passion and the amazing sex has been very very hurtful for me, a loving wife (and I really did love him) to hear, because I know you are telling the truth.
We had sex a lot. A lot, I thought it was really good. But I simply couldn't compete against the excitement and newness that is you. I just couldn't. My love was not enough which kind of tells me that the problem lies with him and his ego, choosing fantasy over real life. Very sad for me, but there it is.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet WellWobbly. A relative of mine had an affair and he told me and my DH that the sex with the OW was very dissatisfying. His wife wasn't there the night he talked about it and he had no reason to lie. He wasn't putting all the blame for this on the OW either. He said that he was pretty crap too and alternately felt sorry for/didn't believe the OW when she said it was the best sex she'd ever had.
I do find it funny when women having affairs always come on here saying the sex is amazing. You never see a more honest and believable account about sex like you get from posters who are married to, dating or divorcing men and I think that's just part of the big delusion.
Honeymoon. Sexor illicit sex is always going to be amazing/exciting - because they know it is wrong or snatching the odd moment. Sex as a married couple - well it just can't compete can it !!!! Also a relationship is about much ,ore than sex - mostly it is about trust - and a man who has cheated on his wife for ten years - don't think I would trust him !!!!!!
Can I also say I don't blame the OP - she isn't the one who is married !! S therefore she has no responsibility for the wife and kids - she didn't make the vows he did!! HIM on the other hand - ten years cheating on someone - he must be a blooming good actor - ten years. - no way could anyone do that for whatever 'reason'. He is a pathetic, cheating, lying coward and I hope he ends up on his own!!!
When he first tried to leave... what do you mean by that? You don't try to leave, if you want to leave you leave... he clearly didn't want to leave his wife.
Stop putting his wife down - you are doing yourself no favours.
OP you are emotionally unavailable (look at your childhood relationships) and you are in a relationship with an emotionally unavailable man (to both his wife and you) and you are teaching your children to be emotionally unavailable too (children copy what you DO not what you say).
You are cut off from your healthy feelings of shame and in a cosy little bubble of denial which is why you can sleep with another woman's man and try to justify it (she's a bit of a workaholic so that makes it alright). You live near them - do you see her about - do you smile and say hi?
As other posters have said you need to face reality if you want to exit from this affair and that involves facing up to the truth - that you are the rule not the exception. Just another pair of boring everyday cheaters too selfish to think of anyone but themselves but trying to dress it up as some epic romance and getting angry when people call it for what it is. You don't want your little bubble burst but facing reality is the only way out - it will be painful though - this truth WILL hurt.
Gehj - when he calls shut the door in his face or don't answer it - tell him you will call on him and his wife/ children if he doesn't leave you alone - if he wanted to leave his wife he would leave. If you wanted to leave you would - you clearly don't so what do you want ???
YOU have to want it to end - if you do it will simples - loads of people break up/divorce so why can't you - IF you really want to ?
The most painful part for an OW must be the realisation that she's been lied too just as much as his wife. It's simply ridiculous to believe that a man who is being described as the 'primary carer' despite working full time just like his wife couldn't have got shared residence or even sole residence with his children if he'd left his marriage. Or seeing as he wasn't financially dependent on his wife, couldn't have made a new home with the OP who also worked. Seeing as he was the primary carer and both he and his wife were allegedly earning lots of money, there could hardly be a better set of circumstances for a man to start again and be a single parent like lots of other people.
Reading between the lines, him moving his healthy but widowed mother in (now that he can't use the children as an excuse any longer) was probably the last straw and this is your last roll of the dice to see if he'll come good on all his bullshit. Deep down you probably know that he won't, so it's your defence mechanism to reframe the last 10 years as being your choice and something that suited you at the time but is now surplus to requirements. Even the way you describe how your children have had a good life and have been unaffected by this headfucking family life is all part of that sanitisation and reframing process.
You're not fooling anyone here but it's a shame you're fooling yourself.
How will you find the strength to leave him?
How about taking all the energy you have previously pumped into deceiving your children and yourself and refocusing it.
Perhaps you should just stay. I mean, what sort of man would trust a woman who conducted an affair for 10 years?
I have not lied nor fabricated anything nor deliberately put his wife down. I have merely given the background to my first post.
I'm NOT responsible for the fact his wife chooses to work 24/7.
I'm NOT responsible for the fact that despite her husband admitting to an affair, nothing changed for them when he returned home.
I'm NOT responsible for when he has been ill with a medical complaint and needs care, she chooses to work rather than spend time with him.
I'm NOT responsible for admitting the sex is passionate when it is.
I AM responsible for letting this affair to continue and have enjoyed the benefits.
I AM responsible for ignoring the lies he has most probably told his wife in order to spend time with me.
I AM responsible for thinking he has been a bloody good father and been there for his children.
I AM responsible for wondering how he has managed to maintain this affair for ten years, whilst holding down a full time job.
I AM responsible for being flattered by the love and attention he has shown me rather than his wife, and continued to do so despite not wanting to break up his family.
I AM responsible for being part of the decisions we have both made regards him leaving his wife and children after 3yrs of being together.
I AM PREPARED TO take RESPONSIBILITY for ending this affair. I do not have plans to tell his wife what a lying, cheating b*****d he's been but to let it go and hopefully, no-one further will get hurt.
I AM responsible for admitting - 'what she doesn't know won't hurt her' because my selfish actions have warranted it and I'm ashamed to say, I don't regret one day of the last ten years because I have been in love with him.
Perhaps those reading this who are currently in an affair will recognise the above and agree this is true but cannot bring themselves to admit it. Just because I have known it's wrong, does not mean that it has been easy to let go.
I'd stop vicariously living life by what he wants. hes not calling shots,unless you let him
you get another social circle, join ou,gym to keep busy and become different distant
reflect upon your choices why you spent nearly 11yr with married man who never made you 1st choice
You can list what you think your role is or as Ben.
You an detail that which you chose to see as your reponibility and that which you wish to dismiss as her fault.
But anyone reading can interpret that any way they like.
Fwiw your sniping at his wife just sounds like bollocky justification to me. As it always does when ths sad tale is told over and over again on here.
OP, from what Ive observed here on Relationships for an affair to 'work' both parties have to invest in the idea that the wife (in this case) somehow has earned it/deserves it. If the cheater can not dish any real dirt on the wife he manufactures it;
She's cold and a workaholic.
She's needy and unstable.
She's lazy and a financial leech.
The cheater 'de-personalises' the wife with blame and the fallacy that she has put him in 'an impossible situation'. A common theme is that she would use the children as a weapon if she found out. That she is so desperate to hold onto the cheating man that she would put up with anything andn would hold the children to ransom. The cheater feeds this narrative to the OW. It's convenient for him and for the OW. Both MM and OW are so heavily invested in this narrative that they come to believe it themselves.
Often the wife is oblivious or realises something is amiss but doesn't cop on what it is. None of it is true. The wife often turns out to be a perfectly reasonable woman who just hasn't been informed that the marriage is over.
It seems to be a common device used.
So you say you don't want this affair any more. So what you have to do is start picking apart everything that's been fed to you and everything you wanted to believe. Everything you might still believe. It's probably a crock of shit.
"I AM responsible for wondering how he has managed to maintain this affair for ten years, whilst holding down a full time job."
What a man! Whatamighty-mighty good man.
You're first 3 points are basically just blaming her for 'forcing' him into an affair, therefore you can still keep him on a pedestal because its not his fault he's cheating with you, the nasty woman made him do it. I wonder his many times in the last decade she has been ill/tired/rundown/needing support but he has been elsewhere shagging you.
You're not going to end it and you know it. You're right about one thing though, she's probably known for years.
I'm NOT responsible for the fact that despite her husband admitting to an affair, nothing changed for them when he returned home.
Oh. How do you know he admitted the affair to his wife?
look lose the tortured lovers bullshit.he fucked you over.literally and metaphorically
and in end chose hs wife.you were the bit in the side
had he wanted you he'd have chosen you.plenty men get divorced,chose ow.not your,lover though
If she is such a terrible wife, he could and should have left her. He chose not to. He had reasons not to leave, you only know what he has chosen to tell you.
It seems strange that such a high earner is a primary carer who has spent the last ten Christmases with you. It doesn't add up op. You've been played.
Just wishing you all the best in your new life as a single woman.
You want tips on how to end it.
If he shows up at your door/is persistent, drive to his wife and fill her in, in full detail about the last ten years. Let him know in advance this is your plan, should he choose to harass you, then react appropriately.
Another alternative is to call the cops.
You have lots of options, you just don't want to see them because you are a narcissist and you think you are so irresistible to him. You are not irresistible, you are just an easy lay with limited expectations.
Have I missed part of this thread? The bit where 24hr nursing care turned into an 11yr old bringing his dad a snack?
Yes how do you know he told her he was having an affair? Spoken to her at length about it, have you? Or maybe you thought it was appropriate to ask his children?
Chubfuddler i have not mentioned he has spent any christmases with me, but my birthdays. He left his wife after three years to move into rented accommodation so we could start our relationship afresh, without him moving into my home due to the fact I had four small children and I wasn't ready at the time to commit. He told his wife why he was leaving, hence the 'I love you because you are the mother of my children but I'm not in love with you' conversation.
She took him back when he had an accident just weeks after he left and was immobilised for a short time (a couple of weeks).
I know there are plenty of marriages out there (at least 3 couples of my friends) who are no longer in love with each other but can't be bothered nor can afford to leave. They no longer sleep with each other but are happy to live under the same roof because they can't see an alternative. It was my belief she was of the same. If she truly thought he was continuing with the affair, she didn't push for answers nor fought to find out. I know this sounds like I'm blaming her for our actions, I'm not. I'm just saying these are the reasons why it was so easy for us to continue without there being any strife.
So you don't know with absolute certainty that she knew about the affair?
This is just what he told you he'd said? Along with the other stuff about not loving her.
You don't have proof that he said any of that to her, do you?
Of the 4 comments you won't admit responsibility for, 3 of them are directly targeting his wife. The 4th, perhaps too, by comparison.
You have NO right to talk about her. You know nothing, only that he lies to her, and therefore everything he says about her to YOU is probably a lie too.
'my wife doesn't understand me' is the oldest and most hackneyed lie of all.
And you fall for it. For over 10 years?
You make your girls complicit in it?
Shame on you.
Oh I see, I misread your poorly worded paragraph.
Look, when the OW refuses for whatever reason to have the MM in her home or set up home with him they go back to their wives. It's what they do.
I do not believe for a second that she thought your affair continued after that split and reconciliation of theirs. Even if she did, well if he was so unhappy/dissatisfied he could have left her anyway. He went back because it was convenient. That's all.
They makes him, and this is a bit of an understatement, not a very nice person.
Yes shame on you, modelling such deceitful behaviour to your children, and allowing someone to lounge around your house, who also models terrible behaviour.
Perhaps the wife works so much in order to cope with all the shite that you and your man lay at her plate.
If you really want it over, you just ay it is over, that's it. Call the police if he wont take no for an answer (he sounds like some kind of nutter/control freak if he wont accept it's over).
Your kids are still so young, who knows what damage you have wreaked on them.
Again OP I ask you how do you know he told his wife 'I love you because you are the mother of my children but I'm not in love with you' ?
How do you know he told her about the affair?
How do you know he 'left' and wasn't asked to leave?
You say she took him back like as if he had nothing to do with it. He went back, you say despite this notion of you both starting afresh?
You claim it was on this pretext of you having kids/not being ready to commit so you were happy to let him go back?
Doesn't sound very passionate.
If all he required was a few snacks and water then couldn't he have worked out something on his high flying salary? A nurse or similar, but no, he went back home to his wife and children instead??
It's a bit weak isn't it?
I don't believe for a second that he told his wife he was no longer in love with her and was having an affair.
More likely, if the OP ever actually saw this rental property and saw all his possessions in it, he told his wife he needed rented accommodation for some other purpose - e.g. for work.
It just doesn't stack up that a bright intelligent woman with a dazzling career and financial independence would take back a man who didn't love her and who was having an affair. He could still have done the childcare when she was at work, like he'd always done.
Why do supposedly intelligent women believe this rubbish about even brighter, more successful women than them? This man's wife is clearly no fool and she certainly can't be blamed for being lied to and not realising it.
Your children are girls?
What on earth do you think you've taught them for the last 10 years?
"Bring water and the odd snack for their Dad"
" his children provided the bulk of his care and realistically, I don't think any wronged-wife would have provided care in his new home that he'd just left the old one for!"
Which is it then op?
By the way, before anyone comes on to post the usual apologia about the OW not being at fault either for men's lies to them - I agree, to a point. Except of course they know the man's a liar and some of them have this terrible flaw of believing he'd never lie to them. It's like parting with money to a con artist who's just ripped off the woman down the road, robbing her of her savings. Why would he not lie to you too? Whereas there's no irrefutable evidence that this man's wife knew her husband was lying to her for 10 years, is there?
Chubfuddler I agree that yes, he probably did go back because it was convenient rather than being alone in his rented accommodation.
Scarletforya, we planned his move over a few months i.e looking for accommodation that was close by so he could still attend to his kids, sorting out rent and buying furniture together. It was only when he had sorted out his accommodation and furnished it, did he tell his wife he was leaving. She neither kicked him out nor knew anything that was going on. I have no proof that this is what he said to her but of course, I believed him then (as I do now) that the reason he told her he was leaving was because he was no longer in love with her and he was having an affair with me.
I say no change was made to their relationship soon after he returned because the amount of hours she worked stayed the same and he continued to see me and leave his home as often as he had done before.
It seems that however I play this, submit the facts as they are, I understand that you are saying he has not been truthful. I understand this but I'm just trying to explain how it was so easy to conduct an affair for so long. I agree with your comments and I'm afraid when one is in the throes of an affair, it is easy to twist the truth in order to suit you and clearly this is what I have done.
It is over. End of, unless of course you love all the attention.
This is only as complicated as you want it to be.
*'I'm NOT responsible for the fact that despite her husband admitting to an affair, nothing changed for them when he returned home.
I'm NOT responsible for when he has been ill with a medical complaint and needs care, she chooses to work rather than spend time with him.*
can't think why she didnt want to stay home and play Nursey to the lying cheating bastard.
OP you sound deluded.
but of course, I believed him then (as I do now)
when one is in the throes of an affair, it is easy to twist the truth in order to suit you and clearly this is what I have done.
And what he has done, I think on a far larger scale than you wanted to think about before.
I'm sure it will take a while to process the 'new reality' and to digest that what you previously accepted as fact is really just ....well, the witterings of a weak man who habitually lies to suit himself.
His hours staying the same and seeing you exactly as much as before all indicate to me that the wife was never told a thing about the affair.
What do you think?
So when you were feathering his little love nest who paid for the furniture you chose together, him, you or her?
I struggle to accept that he's a very high earner and also the main carer for the children.....
I have x posted. His rental home was very close to where I live. We picked it together for that reason. What I will say, and I think we could discuss this thread forever, is that, yes, she is a high earner, therefore, one would presume she is an intelligent woman, then how does anyone explain the fact we have been having an affair for ten years without her knowing! We practically live within a stones throw from each other. I don't wish to defend myself anymore, not because I don't wish to, but because I feel I have enough material, advice and feedback on his poor behaviour to allow me to make the right decision and never go back. It takes two to make a happy marriage and despite what everyone says, if she was such a wonderful wife, mother etc, why would he look elsewhere for love, comfort, support and the life that a 'normal' relationship brings. I have made it clear, this relationship was not purely about sex, meeting up once a month or whatever you may think. This was an on-going relationship where I allowed him after a few years, to become close to my children, and we conducted a relationship to the detriment of his wife. I will always be here to guide my 4children (2 boys, 2 girls) and yes (hypocritically), tell them that having an affair is wrong. I admit I have used being a single parent as an excuse (can't remember who said this) for my despicable behaviour and I totally get where you are all coming from except to say...... if all is well at home, then either partner, man or woman, would not be attempted to stray. The fact this has been going on for 10yrs can either be seen as indication of how happy we have been or an indication that I have been blinded by love for so long! I guess only time will tell.
VBisme, he bought and paid for all the furniture by himself out of a personal account (not the family account) and I was able to help out with his rent which was paid for in full for six months. Despite his main job, he also has a small business which earns him an extra income. Before anyone asks how he finds time to go to work and also work an extra sideline, he is a shift worker and so works 4days on and 4days off. This explains why he was always there for his children whilst they were young and at school and how he was able to give extra time to his small business which started out more as a hobby.
kali, the problem obviously is that OP got emotionally attached to the gey over these 10yrs, it's hard to drop a friend let alone a lover, it's like quitting to smoke and it's a bit like bereavement when people ar involved. But I think OP already said that she's now ready and the thread has helped (she has a tolerance of a saint,with this level agression!)
OP I hope that you got my PM.
I know that you will be feeling really bad about yourself now, please dont, the nasty comments are not worth listening to. It doesnt matter what you say now, someone will misenterpret it and turn it around against you.
You are fighting a losing battle on here unfortunately.
There used to be a fantastic forum. There were a lot of people who were having or have had affairs and there was a great support post for ones trying to end an affair. Unfortunately the owner left his wife for the oW and then decided that making money from others having affairs wasnt so great !
It's hard to believe you continued this affair for ten and a half years without ending it. So many people must have been hurt in the process?
Totally agree with CounselorTroi why the fuck would his wife want to stay at home and nurse him when he had dumped her for another woman and told her he wasn't in love with her just because he was unwell when the woman who supposedly loved him couldn't be bothered.
Kalidanger the point of this thread began with the question: 'How do I manage to end the affair for good?'. I find your post rather damning, using expletives and calling me a stupid cow. Stupid I may have been but calling me a cow is just pure frustration on your part! I understand you may be angry with my actions, but you can't blame me for being honest.
I think its time for me to call it a day now.
I'm thinking wife is really quite smart.
People don't have affairs because something is wrong at home. They have affairs because they can. They might love the person they are with but if they can get more sex and attention as well without getting caught then some people will.
That something wrong at home schtick is just part of the narrative I mentioned before. The one you are invested in. On here people call it 'the script'.
OP, you don't know how he managed to maintain his ft job, his paternal responsibilities and have you on the side without his wife kicking him out for 10 years. You don't know why his wife took him back after he left despite him telling her about the affair.
These are very big gaps in your knowledge despite your being in constant contact and spending 2-3x a week with him.
Why is that? Is it because you do not ask? Is it because he does not tell? Either way, both of you are ignoring the elephant in the room. Because to him, it does not really matter. Both of you are not going anywhere.
I think you figured that out by now. You can tell yourself it is your choice to leave. The truth is, it was never really your choice to stay, just a booby prize for someone who did not rock the boat for 10 years.
God your poor children.
Yes OP, don't listen to the nasty comments. Don't change. Maybe then your kids will have a chance to detach from you, your denial has made you unbelievably toxic.
I don't really care about you or him. You're in so much denial you're embarrassing yourself, he's pathetic and you both blame his wife.
However, you burdened your daughters with your sordid little secret.
I can't get over that part. If you are actually serious about ending it, you need to talk to your DD's about how much damage you've done to them.
Because if they are 'high flyers' what are you going to tell them if their husband has an affair?
That it's their fault?
Or will it be different because they're people you love?
It takes two to make a happy marriage and despite what everyone says, if she was such a wonderful wife, mother etc, why would he look elsewhere for love, comfort, support and the life that a 'normal' relationship brings.
er, it takes two people not to cheat to have a happy marriage.
We could make a drinking game out of this. Every time she trots out a line from the often heard script we take a shot.
"My wife is marvellous and I have zero intentions of every leaving the cosy set up I have at home but I really fancy putting my cock into somebody else" - said no cheating scumbag, ever.
But that is quite likely to be the truth. OP you are totally invested in believing the myth that he is in a shell of a marriage to women who is undeserving of his greatness and it is this feeling of superiority, of snatching the prize away from this women, that has fuelled this relationship for you. You said it yourself, that you were flattered by the fact that he used 'her time' on you (not quoting but that was the gist). It's not just about him picking you, it's about him picking you over her. You need to feel 'better than' and it's a bitter, bitter pill to swallow that after 10 years of proving that you are the iwife 7.0 version, he still wants his old model (and you do want him in that way because there is no way you would have let him play daddy to your kids if he was simply a fwb).
You're not going to end it with him. Your ego has taken a bashing because you just can't find the moving his healthy mother in thing to be anything other than an excuse to stay with her, so you need a fix. You'll tell him it's over, he'll waily, waily over how he can't live without you but he has to stay... Because it's his duty you understand, not because he wants to and you'll fall into each others arms (passionately, no doubt), and on it will go for as long as his wife has no idea about you.
Stay, go, do what you like OP but please leave this women alone, she has done nothing to warrent your vittriol against her other than to have met this man before you. You don't know her and you have no idea about the reality of their marriage, only what he has told you and he is a liar.
Leave her alone and sort yourself out.
What I get is that you used him as much as he used you. In an earlier post you admit that him not being full time suited you. I don't think you ever wanted him to leave his wife. You knew he would not and you did not care.
So why not continue seeing him? What has changed in your life? Is it because you have met someone else? Or is it because you are starting to think if I don't find someone full time, I won't ever find anyone?
What I am actually getting here is that you seem quite calculated about it all. And the only reason you would not lose permanent contact with him is that he is convenient for you as it is for him.
CounselorTroi, ha, I once said the same thing! I think perhaps you're right. I told him she must know of our affair but was hanging on to him because he gives the children their tea and ferries them around to their various sports/hobbies clubs. Maybe she was afraid of losing her chauffeur and cookcumchildminder.
Imnotscared, thanks for your support. Yes, I'm able to put up with the crap (and excellent advice on here) because of my profession (I work in education with children so I can take it on the chin without losing my cool). I will be in touch and keep you updated.
I'm off to bed now- please don't worry. It just amazes me that so many of you can post without reading the full thread and thereby post a load of bull that doesn't relate to the original question nor previous facts that have been posted.
Bye all x
Oh not the 'if he was happy with his wife he wouldn't have had an affair' trope?
Yes, that's the same wife he's staying with and has no intention of leaving, despite his children being grown up, him having always being able to afford a new life and his wife being able to support herself and her half of any continued financial support to their children.
Face facts OP. He's happy where he is and he always was. The reason he had an affair was because he could and the compliant OW he found, placed no demands on him. Are you really so naive to think that some people just want a bit extra of everything?
Either his wife not unreasonably trusts the man she's married to and because she's a bright successful woman with a life of her own has never felt the need to police her husband's every movement, or she knew the score years ago and has been doing what he's been doing for years - hanging on to her hard-earned assets, getting her children looked after by their resident parent while she gets her own kicks elsewhere. Either way, she really isn't the stupid naive one here and I can't see why you feel the need to be so sneering and belittling to her.
Unless of course it's dawning on you that she's always had far more going for her than you, her husband thinks so too and you're understandably jealous.
oh ffs, I can't believe this is still going!
op imagine for a second that everything that guy ever said was a lie, you do not have to reach for that one right? Ok you do not know if he ever told his wife without having spoken to her or the kids (god forbid) to confirm.
Somehow you have then also made the leap from the liar to justifying your part in this dreadful behaviour by blaming the wife for not realising what was going on under her nose. Has it ever occurred to you that she may be a decent human being who does not go around screwing other people over and therefore does not expect to be screwed over?
Honestly your logic is savagely absent.
You keep repeating that happily married people don't stray thereby blaming the wife again, for all you know she is happily married to a lying cheating sociopath and you think you are special when in fact you are the idiot for knowing he is a cheating scumbag and inviting him into your life.
Please get some help or I am forced to second the narcissist vote (and maybe you should look that up).
How do you end the affair?
You look in the mirror and see the sad, deluded fool who has been lied to for 10 years and who has wasted 10 years of her life on some bloke who doesn't love her enough to leave his family.
Then you look again and tell yourself to get some self esteem and courage. Delete his numbers and move on with your life.
I despise affairs and the people who have them. But I'm shocked and full of pity for how empty your life must really be if you have had to endure this pretend relationship for 10 years in order to give your life meaning.
her cookcumchildminder (sic) ?
Strange as it might seem to you, married couples don't regard a fellow parent who prepares food for his own children and looks after them, as their personal cook and childminder. God, you're insanely jealous of this woman aren't you?
You cannot even compete with some one who uses your lover like a domestic appliance for 10 years?
Gosh, that must really sting. Yup, time to move on.
" just trying to explain how it was so easy to conduct an affair for so long."
Yes, real relationships are hard work. You'll discover that some day.
Chauffeur and cookcumchildminder?! Also known as a husband and father. Do you not see that what you are describing is nothing more than your common garden variety parent and spouse- you seem to think this makes him some kind of God amongst men. It doesn't. Banal that it is, it is just normal family life.
And so what if he does the lions share whilst she makes the most money for the family? There is nearly always one partner that does more but they are not a poor put upon victim of an evil selfish spouse - it's called, being part of a functioning family unit.
You have very skewed ideas of reality.
Insanely jealous! Don't be silly. If I were, I would have dropped the bombshell on her years ago but I'm not some vindictive person. I have chalked down the last ten years as a relationship I have enjoyed and now I'm ready to move on. I know his wife (remember, we live a stones throw from each other) and I know her well. I have no reason to be jealous of her nor do I wish to make any personal comments about her. For all those who have said I have wasted the last 10yrs, I disagree! That's why I have not been in any hurry to leave him. I have already posted my reasons why I wish to move on and for those who said I have used him for my own benefits as well as what I could provide for him are absolutely correct. We provided love for each other and comfort. He was of valuable support to me and my children, whether it be domestic or emotional. If you can't accept that people have affairs other than for sex, then you aren't in a position to judge until it you have experienced it other than being a wronged wife.
For the record.....my marriage broke up because my husband 'had an affair'. Believe it or not, despite my initial reaction which was to blame the other woman, I totally DO NOT BLAME her and the reason why my marriage broke down was NOT due to the affair. The affair was a CONSEQUENCE of what was wrong within my marriage... it wasn't the catalyst. Which brings me back to why I think people have affairs. It's not because a man/or woman want MORE of whatever they are seeking just because they can... it's because they are not fulfilled in the first place.
Thank you for confirming your jealousy. Every post you've made has been filled with personal comments about her and FWIW... That entire post was a subconscious justification of how she's responsible.
I think if he actually left (which will clearly never happen, you're perfectly in place for him) You wouldn't even want him. So much energy focused on the wife of the man you've used to destroy your and your children's lives with apparently no guilt as to any suffering you've put your own children through.
Third the narcissist vote. Good luck OP, you desperately need it.
So it's ok for you to use him for domestic purposes but it's the crime of the century if she does? Punishable by 10years hard cuckolding?
Why do women assume that almost all affairs are conducted because a man wants more sex? Ours started as an innocent friendship conducted at the school gates which grew into a physical attraction. We did not begin an affair for some time and both tried to deny our feelings. We became attracted to each other and were smitten. I did not act upon my feelings straight away but was pursued by him. It would be easy for everyone to say I should have put a STOP to it before it began but I didn't and so hence the beginning. Think what you like of me, I am a decent person who has raised four children whilst holding down a full time job. I entered into a relationship that is morally wrong but whilst working in education, I know how to conduct myself in a professional manner and would instruct the students it is wrong to do so. Do you think all teachers are Saints . Let's be realistic. THE WIFE has to bear a portion of blame for not keeping her husband happy. He is to blame for cheating on her and I am to blame for allowing it to happen knowingly (Yes, i really am not DUMB!). This may be a Mumsnet but that doesn't give anyone the right to blame all others apart from the WIFE. I am a realistic person and accept this affair for what it was. I hope I will be strong to let go and the irony of it all is: if I had a friend who was in this position, I'd be the first to tell her she is being used and abused. It's an entirely different story when you are the one experiencing it! Thanks for your vote.
Haven't read the full thread as there's no need.
So only going to answer the OPs question which is Ending a Ten and a Half year affair
I'll tell you how:
If you really want rid of him, then threaten him and threaten him hard.
"stop shitting on my doorstep, or I will come and shit heavily on yours:
if you continue to contact me I will post intimate details and photos of the last ten years to your wife and i will take out an injunction against you."
"Do not fuck with me. I will go straight to the police and to your wife. In the same order. Do NOT contact me again."
And because you want to end this affair, you stick by this and never contact him again.
Of course you wouldn't have dropped the bombshell on her - ever. You've always known that he would have given you up instantly if his wife had made him choose. He'd rather lose you than her.
Just because your own marriage was unhappy and your husband had an affair and then left the marriage, doesn't mean you possess any insight into every affair and every other marriage. I can't believe anyone would come out with something so ridiculous.
But it must be so difficult having these beliefs that people only want other relationships if they are 'unfulfilled' when your boyfriend has always wanted his relationship with his wife in addition to the one he has with you. The logical extension of your self-serving belief that you are meeting needs his wife cannot is that she's meeting needs that you cannot.
Otherwise he would have left her to be with you. He didn't and he's never going to. You on your own would never fit the bill.
THE WIFE has to bear a portion of blame for not keeping her husband happy.
So by that token, a mistress has to bear a portion of the blame for not keeping a man happy enough to choose her and only her?
Tsk, I think you should hang your head in shame for the crime of not keeping a man happy
And because we are in the 21st century also threaten him with social media: FB, Twitter, Youtube, Flickr, etc etc.
But you have to mean it and stop whining on about how you want to end it but it's difficult blah blah.
Make HIM end it.
"THE WIFE has to bear a portion of blame for not keeping her husband happy."
Guess you couldn't keep your husband happy which is why he had the affair. And then you were in a "relationship" for 10 years.
Gosh, what would you ever do in a real relationship, I wonder?
"It's an entirely different story when you are the one experiencing it!"
Well, something to look forward to for your daughters I suppose.
You were recently single/divorced/whatever when you 'met'.
He saw you as easy meat. You were targeted. You were tested to see if you'd keep his secret and you passed.
You now sit here and judge his wife,m when you have no right or need to do so.
You set an appalling example to at least 4 innocent children. And you sit here now, spouting star crossed B'S in a vain attempt to justify your betrayal of a family, your decimation of children's moral teaching, and even now, you come here to defend and brag to a site that day in, day out supports the victims of sordid little affairs/lies/betrayal/treachery such as you describe here
You are not here to do the right thing. You're here to make yourself feel better, again at the expense of others.
We've told you what you have to do, time and time again, but the end of the drama is unbearable to you, if not a mistress, who would you be? Where would your unjustified superiority come from? Who would you throw rocks at to make yourself look/feel better? Who?
How sad that the need for a buzz keeps you here, and there, and you don't appear to give a shiny shit about who you hurt in thé process.
Your children will grow up, and they will know what you did.
I pity them, they are going to need so much support. I only hope you don't succeed in blighting their futures as you have blighted their childhood.
Sorry, but the man is married. He's the biggest fuck-bag of all here.
If the op wants rid, then she must meaningfully threaten him with everything legally possible.
It's a bit vulgar to bang out insults and brickbats to the OP when the married bloke should really have un-dipped his wick years ago.
You think you are a "decent person"?
Here's a clue: a decent person would never, NEVER make their children complicit in an affair with the father of other children they knew.
All your unpleasant bitterness towards his wife and your demented competition with her, your callousness towards his children, all of that lack of basic decency absolutely pales in comparison to the utterly degrading, moral repulsive shit you put your own children through.
That was their family throughout their teens? Their spiteful mother and her married lover popping by to "comfort" her and being a father figure to them, while they knew the children he is the actual father of?
How could you do that to them?
No decent person could ever behave like that.
My Father had a ten year affair, someone in my parent's social circle eventually got too sick of watching my Mother being duped and blew the whole thing wide open.
It has coloured my perception of every single family memory throughout my teens, my siblings were much younger and for them I think it's worse. I love my Father very much but I do not trust him, I find it hard to trust anyone really.
The values that shaped my family life are tainted and all of my memories are filtered through a horrid realisation that my Dad was living a lie. It has fucked up every member of my family in a different way. The fall out was epic and continues.
The OW seemed to think we would understand and she would be a part of our lives. She was deeply mistaken.
You can't undo what's happened but you can try to protect your children and his from the consequences of your actions by ending it now, for good. Please try harder to protect your kids from this part of your life.
You can't blame the wife.
You two are the wrongdoers not her.
If he was THaT unhappy with her - he should have left BEFORE he had an affair.
You haven got a relationship you are a dirty little secret !
Sorry I don't want to get at u and I always think the married person is to name in an affair.
Also she (the wife) is not responsible for his happiness he is.
He doesn't love you anywhere near the amount he loves his wife.
If his life is so awful why didn't he leave sooner?
You're not Romeo and Juliet, you're not a romantic love story, you're dirty.
Your poor children. Lets hope you've not damaged them too much, eh? They're not your priority are they?
Make an appointment with relate for this week. You have to admit that this whole charade has been a mistake.
You will need support for what is the equivalent of a divorce. You will have to prepared to accept that your
life is not going to be what it was and expect to face some terrifying realities.
You need to help your children as well and they will also need support.
Family counselling will be important for all of you. FGS get help for all of you. I doubt you will have the strength to face this without support.
Lift the phone today.
Seriously folks, this is a waste of effort. On the first page of this thread, Branleuse (second post I think) said she wouldn't leave, and a few posters seconded that. She's in denial, she's liking the thrill, at a guess, of talking about it in this anonymous way.
OP, write it all down in a journal. You've had numerous suggestions and lots of advice, most of which you've chosen to dodge or ignore outright. You are so deep in denial it's almost laughable. Except it's not that funny really.
Very disappointed to read your latest few posts. You are very entrenched.
I don't think there is much more to be said really.
I'm not sure why you are railing against us though.
If you want to get rid of him, stop having sex with him. He'll hang around for a while but 'events will conspire' that 'he thinks he should commit to his family'.
You think he's your friend and that he loves you. He wants you, and has always wanted you, for the sex, the thrill and the cake.
You talk about affairs as if they just happen - 'he was as surprised as me when we started the affair'. Affairs happen because people step over that line. It's a very broad line and it's not possible to just slip over it accidentally. There is very specific intent involved.
Your intent seems to be that you 'wanted to have some fun'. Perhaps you had had a gruelling time and felt that it was time to let your hair down and have some uncomplicated fun, that life owed you some fun, a good time. Which is understandable, I can relate to that. But you picked and chose someone who belonged to others, not you. It wasn't uncomplicated because he was someone else's husband and father. You also dragged your kids into it. That is just so sordid and SO irresponsible OP. I feel such anger that you dragged your kids into it.
I don't know if you are going to face the truth of this. You want to keep it as a 10-year recreation, need, true relationship. It wasn't and never was true. You are determined to believe his script that his awful wife is so neglectful etc that she deserved it. Your kids are going to get older and see with clarity what you have done - and will very probably despise you for it. You have also introduced adultery into the family line which, like a weed, has a tendency to replicate. It's going to be a lot easier for you to deny the truth of all of this - as you have denied the truth for over 10 years - because the pain of realisation will be very tough indeed.
A couple of corrections.
No you are not a decent person: I can understand people have affairs, people make mistakes etc, but you continue to 'blame' the wife. You refuse to take full responsibility for your actions.
You say you don't want to pass personal remarks about the wife, but you continue to do so. You allude to her using her husband as cook and chaffeur for the kids. Wake up! They are his kids too, he is responsible for them too, their family dynamic (as to who ears what, who does the pick ups and drops offs), is there business not yours. You are nopt part of their family dynamic. He may be part of yours but you are not part of theirs. Who are you to judge them, regardless of your affair, you really do not know what goes on behind their closed doors.
You are not decent, you are deceitful. You wear a cloak in your everyday life, you behave differently in public than you do behind your closed doors.
You really are not decent.
Everyone makes mistakes, and the ones that admit to them and take full responsibility for them and try to make ammends and learn by them are decent.
You are not decent.
Wake up to yourself.
There is no point to the question - How do I put a stop to this? You put a stop to it, by taking responsibility for your own actions. By being an adult and not being self absorbed and by thinking of the wider context of your actions.
No, she's real
I knew someone who I had alot of respect for and considered a friend. She told me her story once, that her husband had cheated on her and how she had left him as she was heartbroken and felt betrayed by him. She then went on herself to have affairs with married/un available men. She said that 'well it happened to me so why shouldn't I do the same!' In a very matter of fact way.
I couldn't understand why she would choose to inflict that sort for betrayal on another woman? OP is the same, she had a messy divorce and somehow thought it was okay to potentially cause the same for another woman. She knows the mans children, talks about her children, how she single handedly raised them as if it's something that only she has done.
I lost alot of respect for my 'friend' that day and slowly found myself distancing myself from her. I couldn't trust her at all. I think maybe OP's friends as 'happy' for her as she hasn't got her claws into one of their partners/husbands.
I think the responsibility for the marriage is up to the cheating bastard.
But the OW, OP in this case, is also complicit in the lies and the deceit. Now it seems her children have grown and she wants to explore other avenues as she has finally realised that his man isn't oing to leave his wife. So she wants to end it as she's had her fill of him. She has used him as much as he has used her.
Maybe she is trying to force his hand, by trying o end it so he does end up leaving! Or maybe she is now ready to move not her next MM.
I was cheated on and yes I am bitter about that. It has affected my ability to trust others, to just men. My ex didn't tell the OW that he was still married. I don't have any problems with the fact that our relationship came to an end. What I can NEVER forgive is that my ex thought it was okay to start something new with someone, on a try before you buy basis, before he decided o end it with me. He was emotionally abusive and I saw him manipulate the lies to make himself look better. Since being on MN, I can see there is a script that cheaters follow. OP is as much a cheater as the cheating husband.
OP, you and other OW and OM, need t get over yourselves and GROW UP.
Can we have your MM on for a webchat? I mean cheating arsehole aside, he sounds remarkable. I'd like to ask him for some advice on how to fit more into my day. Because some days I struggle to run the hoover over the ground floor on top of keeping us all basically fed and clean. I'd like to know how to run two relationships, have a high flying, well-paid career, be the main carer to several dc (my own and to some extent those of the person I'm shagging on the side), be emotionally present and supportive in a couple of families at a time and be a carer for an elderly relative. He sounds very busy indeed. Sure he can fit a webchat in though on top of his other extensive engagements.
There was a criminal in Dublin, I think his nickname was 'The Penguin', who had families with two sisters, he managed to run two households. I suppose the duplicity helped in both his private and criminal life.
Then of course there are polygamists.
The husband in this scenario doesn't seem to be the main breadwinner in either household that he is dipping his wick in. Didn't the OP say she was paying towards his rent when he left the wife....what a keeper.....
Don't forget the second job he has too, running a small business SOH
Yet his wife gets pulled to shreds by the OP for working long hours
Mumat39 I've always thought women who've been cheated on who go on to have affairs with married men themselves aren't doing it for any reason other than to get back at women and reclaim some power over them. It's as if they've got something to prove that they too are capable of enticing a man away from his wife. Some achievement that is
This thread shows that's the case here. The OP has said more about the man's wife and her alleged failings than she's said about the man himself. It's like she's obsessed with her.
It's hard to know if she 'loves' the man, or 'loves' getting one over on the high achieving wife.
Leavenheath, I think you're right. That's the impression I got from my 'friend'
Maybe that's why women are still thought of as the weaker sex, because some of our 'sisters' would quite happily shit on us from a great height just to make themselves feel better. Why do we blame 'men' for keeping us down, when there are women out there who are quite happy to do the dirty.
It's sad that in this case, OP can't even say she didn't know he was married. She colluded from day 1 to ruin another woman's life and then has the gaul to criticise her, when OP has done nothing but try o destroy that womans life. no wonder the cheating sod doesnt want to leave his wife, she that has the strength of character to make sure she is financially secure and has a career and provides for 'her' family including 'her' husband.
Any man who holds down a full time job, and still has time to see OW 2 - 3 times a week, is not a good husband or a father. He and OP believe their lies, and will carry on justifying their shitty attitude to anther human being. I thought it was our ability to 'feel' emotions that separated us from animals. Clearly cheaters whether they be the cheating husband or wife, or the OW or OM, who knowingly do this, just haven't evolved that much. They are still driven by their ' animal instincts'.
Oh yes he's a sports coach too, in touch with his OW every day (24/7 I think she said). Sounds exhausting.
Op, if he comes to your home you should refuse to open the door and call the police if he refuses to leave. I suspect you'd only need to threaten him with the police once before he'd scuttle back under the rock he crawled out from.
Get some counselling for yourself because your self esteem is very low to accept so little in a relationship. This has to start being about what you want rather than allowing him to 'win' you back unless you really enjoy being used by this skank.
It's actually quite an interesting excercise is denial and self justification.
I think the op actually believe what she is writing - can't see all the spitting venom she s throwing at the wife with an air of disinterest. And tries to sound realistic while trotting out lines that she has believed which are the oldest in the book.
It shows how hard we work to convince ourselves that we are blameless and in control.
He is NOT 'Your man'
he never has been. That you can write such a thing is baffling frankly... do you actually think he is 'my man' ?
I have tried to leave but have been unable to
This is bullshit. What you really mean is
I have tried to leave but in the end I didn't want to because it was too hard/too sad/too lonely/too whatever
If you really want to end this then end it. Tell him it is over. Cut all contact. Refuse to meet him or talk to him to discuss it all further. Threaten to expose the affair if he will not leave you alone.
You need to be determined, consistent and completely committed to ending it. It won't be easy but you can do it if you want to.
If you aren't willing to fully commit to ending it then don't bother kidding yourself that you are going to do it.
But most of all don't pretend that you aren't able to end it when you mean you don't want to end it.
he;s obviouly happy to be a shared man, lemon, hardly a loyal husband and 'his wife's' is he?
OP I really don't understand why you still defend yourself against the agression - what's the point? you got some good advice, why not just leave it, some people are irrational and not listening to a word you are saying. Agree completely that the fault lies on ALL sides, including the wife to be putting up with affair - or not caring. She must know as she's not stupid, and is happy to live nearly next door to the OW?
Let's have some fairness, some wives do want a husband to look after the kids and not as a lover - is there not enough threads on MN even written by wives who don't fancy/love her H anymore but don't want to split for the kids? And her career in this case. Maybe she's just as calculating as the OP, maybe she's a saint but we don't KNOW this so stop throwing stones at the OP willy nilly.
Yes, some married men may want a bit of sex and a thrill if it's there on offer, but a cheap thrill would never last 10 yrs by definition. In these caess marriage is lacking in something, but yes on te other hand wife is valued by him as a mother of his kids and maybe for other reasons, so he doesn't want to choose between the two. OP must be extremely famiiliar to him now, and indeed he's more like a polygamist than a little cheat.
Let's have some fairness, some wives do want a husband to look after the kids and not as a lover .
It's his duty to look after the kids, they are his kids....who is looking after them when he is with the OP???
All marriages have ups and downs, people either work on them or bring them to an end. Blaming the wife because the marriage must have some inherent fault is wrong. He could have left and been a great Dad and been honest but he decided not to, his fault, not the wife's fault.
Oh FFS the fault doesn't 'lie on ALL sides'. How the hell do you know the wife is knowingly putting up with her husband's affair? As for 'wives only wanting a husband as a childminder not as a lover' words fail me.
There's nothing in this thread to prove that the cuckolded wife isn't still having sex with her husband and that's just about the only trite cliché the OP hasn't come out with so far.
And how the hell do you come up with this stuff about the man here being used as a childminder when he's got two jobs, a business, a coaching hobby and visits to the OP 2-3 times a week? If anyone's using a spouse as a childminder, it's him surely? All we know about the wife's absence from home when she's not looking after her kids is that she's at work.
No-one would accuse a working man of 'using his wife as a childminder'. For christ's sake these are the couple's own children. It's not 'childminding' - it's being a parent.
What a load of piffle allaflutter if the wife were accepting of a marriage of convenience then why the need for secrecy? He
allegedly told her once about the OP but he moved back in 'for the kids sake'. If he managed to brave the truth once cough, splutter then he could have done it again. "Look love, there's nothing really between us, is there? Lets co-parent under the same roof until the kids are grown but each of us are free to date or whatever?" Because the OP is adamant that the wife couldn't care less about having him as her husband in the fullest sense of the word, so what would be her objection? I mean surely she would like the freedom to have a bit of fun, what with living in a sexless marriage and all.
Unless of course, everything the MM has told the OP about his marriage is a crock
imagine that, a liar lying.Whatever next and he has no interest in being free from his wife and in no uncertain terms wants her to have the freedoms he surreptitiously affords himself. No. His wife either has no clue or she suspects but has no proof. People have hidden bigger secrets than an affair and for longer periods of time - it's doable.
I didn't use the word 'childminder'. It was OP who said that he is a main carer for dc as he stays at home a lot due to shifts - I never said anything is wrong with that, as far as it's not the only reason why the career wife is staying with him, but also sees him as a lover and partner. Yes, we don't know (apart from what OP says) that the wife doesn't have sex or doesn't love him, but it's fair to point out that it can well be the case, and quite a lot of wives on MN come up with this - have a look at the new htread someone started about staying for financial reasons and the kids - it's VERY common in longer marriages. In these cases fault is on all sides - but if it suits them all, it's hteir business, and it's strange to juts blame the ow.
Yes, it may not be the case, and the wife may still love him, or he loves her, but I don't believe for a second that she, the intelligent woman doesn't know about the affair - she knew for sure it happened first time round as he moved out, and I think she can put two and two together with his absences and so on. He may have told her openly for all we know. Maybe it suits her if she's not interested in sex - nothing wrong with that if both agree on this arrangement.
how do we know there is any secrecy, Wahla? OP wouldn't know for sure either. But I'm curious - does she think the wife knows? I don't think it's doable - to have a 10yr affair when wife is nonethe wiser, it's nearly impossible unless husnabd works away from home or something, they aer all in each other's backyards!
...in most cases you'll find the marriage is lacking in something" - damn straight! It's missing a loyal, honest, decent human being.
Wahla, again we don't know whether the wife hasn't got someone else, assuming they've agreed on this arrangement. She may well have. Now hte kids aer grown it should all come to the surface, as no need to stay for the kids, at least not for much longer.
Why not? That chap in America had those three women locked up in his house and his family and the neighbours all swear blind that the knew and suspected nothing. As did the bloke in Austria. Stranger things have happened.
And we don't know "for sure" that he told her about the OP the first time, we only have his word for that and excuse me if I'm disinclined to take the word of a liar at face value.
If she knows and is ok with it then what's with all the 'leaving him for a better life' drama? They would all just be getting on with their respective relationships. Ridiculous thing to say.
I find it very sad, that in all this hatred and venem, it seems to have gone completely unnoticed that the OP has said that she has broken contact.
Maybe OP is hoping that the wife is an MN'er and has just dropped enough info on this thread to 'out' the cheating man.
The opening post isn't about wanting to end it as much as she can't end it. Itv started with I want to, then later transpired that she has already ended it. If she has then why didn't the opening post just state that. She'd have had may be bit more support.
A cheater is always a cheat and the OW will always be the other woman, and if not she will end up with the cheater who she knows to be a lying underhand so and so and will never be able to have a moments peace, as she'll always be worried that he could do it again. I mean how can you spend that much time being with someone whose life is basically a lie.
I think OP realises now that he isn't going to leave his real family for her and is now trying to out him to his wife so that she makes the decision for him! I mean it's quite possible that the wife could read this and the OP would have succeeded in twisting the knife that the husband had stuck in his wife's back when they started this selfish affair.
If the wife ever does find out, I hope she is as OP describes and not there'd and is happy to be rid of him and can replace him with a nanny. Then he and OP can ride off in the sunset and live suspiciously ever after.
I really don't have any sympathy for either of them.
People seem to be implying that the wife must know.
When my ex was having his sordid liaison, I remember asking him outright! He really got offended that I would even think he could do anything like that to me and that he loved me and that he wanted to be with me and one me.
I remember feeling guilty and ashamed for ever doubting his love for me.
I now understand that he was emotionally abusive towards me. He knew I was insecure and played that card really well. I was a successful career woman and was earning well and financially independent, but I wanted. Trust him so I did. We didn't have any children, thankfully, so it was simpler in that case.
When things started to get better he started the I'm not n love with you anymore, and that I should move out. I wasn't happy with that but equally didn't want o be with him. I left and bought my own place and haven't looked back since. But when I finally found out that he had been cheating on me, I cut off all contact. He then tried to squirm his way back into my life, and at one point after a couple of years I did talk to Hume a couple of times. He kept saying if only I knew him now, and hat he was soon different and that he wished we were back together and that he'd made a mistake. There were two conversations like this and a the end of the second one I said, I will not be the OW, leave me alone. He was in a relationship with someone else and they were living one ther. He'd called me twice from his car as he waited to pick her up from his offices.
His lak of understanding about what he was doing was unbelievable.
You come across as a really unpleasant person.
You are bitchy towards his wife.
You talk as if it is all her fault she is still with him and all her fault he isn't with you.
You are setting a terrible and destructive example to your kids and providing your future grandchild with a good chance they will grow up in a broken home.
You don't want to finish this affair at all other than it to become a legitimate relationship.
Be honest with yourself if you can't be on here.
It all sounds dirty, sordid, pathetic and unpleasant.
I feel immense pity for the OW on this thread. I want to clap my hands over my face with embarrassment as they make blithering idiots of themselves...
Except for the OP. Because she involved her 'D'C.
She used her children like garbage so she could happily get a shag under the guise of what a strong, independent woman she was!
That is beyond the pale. Frankly, that makes me ill. This is the only time EVER I reckon I'd say an OW is more of a cunt than her OM. She ruined her children's lives to get a leg over.
It's usually men who have these excuses, they all fit the textbook, yes OP has wasted her life but...She chose to rope her kids in.
Why is that okay? That's so different to an affair. I don't even know what to call that other than if OP is a teacher I would expose her to the world because someone who is such a sociopath shouldn't be near children.
I mean, honestly, affairs are affairs are affairs and everyone who has them are cunts but...Involving you children? For over decade?
I don't know what to say. No that's I lie, I know exactly what I think but I think if I call OP a
Emotionally neglected abuser of her children which is what I would call a man like you selfish cow no onw will get it.
I mean.... Her children? I know I'm rambling.
That's just it isn't it. They both, OP and the cheater, believe themselves to be excellent parents. Children aren't stupid and always know when something is amiss. Always!
The cheater has 2 or 3 times in the week every week for the last 10 years where he would rather spend time away from his own children. When his kids find out that he did this they will also wonder if he preferred the OP's kids than his own. That's alot of time o be away from our family when ou work full time.
It's sad that so many people's lives have been affected by these two very selfish people.
allofaflutter there might well be 'fault on both sides' in this marriage. Only the OP's boyfriend and his wife know the truth of that. But there really can't be 'fault on both sides' for him having an affair. No-one is to blame for two other people's behaviour. Are you getting mixed up with responsibility for marriage difficulties (which are jointly held) and responsibility for having a secret affair (which is unilateral)?
As for how he's managed to get away with it for so long, the OP said he works 4 days on and 4 days off. he's probably a firefighter or someone like that and the 'small business' could be plumbing or decorating - very common in compressed hours jobs like firefighting. If he and his wife have separate accounts or his 'business account' is nothing to do with her, it's very easy for someone in his position to pretend he's had a call-out either to his main emergency services job or to a client who wants work done or quoting for. He's probably faked no end of 'tiling jobs' over the years.
His kids are also 18-21 and he's had years of being able to leave them to their own devices while he nipped round to the OP's - that's if they weren't out themselves - and no-one would even know about his frequent absences, seeing as his wife was out of the house earning her crust. If he had to tell anyone where he was going, he's always had his other 'jobs' to fall back on and pretend it was work.
Successful, busy women with high self esteem really don't spend their lives snooping on their husband's movements, unless they've got legitimate suspicions in which case fair enough. If she hasn't suspected anything, it's just as likely that none of his behaviour at home towards her gives her reason to doubt him. If he's affectionate to her, tells her how much he loves her and still wants a sexual relationship with her, why would she be suspicious? We've got no idea how his moving out was sold to her at the time and let's remember, that was 7 years ago.
It's ridiculous to expect a busy woman to be a paranoid wreck carrying out surveillance on her husband's movements for 10 years and blame her if she does not. FFS she's got better things to do with her time.
Ha! I've just spotted this in your post allofaflutter:
I don't believe for a second that she, the intelligent woman doesn't know about the affair - she knew for sure it happened first time round as he moved out
We don't even know his wife knew he had a flat ready to go do we? Or that he was living there? The OP has said he moved back home 'after a short while' when he had his 'accident'. That could be a few days or even a week. Definitely under 6 months because that was the duration of the rental period, the OP says. Very easy to cover a shortish absence with some other excuse. Seeing as the OP and him were still having to fork out for renting it for a few months afterwards, they probably used it as a shag pad (which might have been his intention all along, ather than actually intending to live in it).
The only people who know the truth of who was told what are this man and his wife.
SpecialAgentTattooedQueen - rich for you to deal out criticism. I think your language and tone are pretty disgusting, tbh.
OP - I think you know that what you've been doing is potentially very hurtful to this man's wife and I still don't quite understand why you felt the need to tell your children?
But although I haven't had any experience being married or having affairs, I don't want you to read this thread and think you've had nothing for 10 years. It sounds like you've had something real, and I can understand how two people involved in an affair could feel real love as much as a married couple. I can also understand the man loving you, but not wanting to leave his family - it is somewhat wanting his cake and eating it, but it doesn't make feelings towards you any less real. Bear in mind that there are a lot of replies on here going into great detail in an attempt to render your relationship with this man void of anything real. I don't think that's necessarily true - but there are a lot of women on here who have probably been hurt by women like you.
Good luck for the future.
I am very happily married.
Thinking that the op is deluded and has been a shag on the side for a decade is not simply the views of women 'hurt by women like you'.
I think the person who has lost the most is the op and my posts reflect the fact that if she cannot see that the last ten years was sordid and meaningless she will continue to think that it reflects a healthy relationship. It really does not.
If we don't understand and accept our mistakes we just continue to make them.
"...somewhat wanting his cake and eating it..."
OP, you have wasted 10 years of your life, I think you are right to call it a day. Good luck!
Another happily married woman here. You don't need to have been 'hurt' to have a moral compass, AFAIK
Another non-scorned women here that just thinks that knowingly shitting on another person, regardless of your relation to them and then blaming them for your bad behaviour is a pretty poor show.
"I remember asking him outright! He really got offended that I would even think he could do anything like that to me and that he loved me and that he wanted to be with me and one me.
I remember feeling guilty and ashamed for ever doubting his love for me.
I now understand that he was emotionally abusive towards me."
I second those words exactly! Internet and OP I ASKED HIM. He lied. Now, it could be that I AM STUPID. But it also could be that husbands who have previously loved you and who made some quite important promises, - well, you trust them. You 'think' you still have a close relationship, the one where you sort things out together in honesty and mutual support.
But, what you don't know, is that the rules have changed and he isn't the person you 'thought' he was.
Please, can you tell me specifically as a wife, how that is my fault (you both say it is the wife and the marriage's fault), and how you negotiate something HE DOESN'T WANT TO?
This is what you two aren't getting. He wants his wife/kids/own armchair/life AND he wants your undeserved admiration and exciting slit. It isn't a competition. He wants both 'things'.
And this (treating US as things, solely for his benefit) is hugely disrespectful, to you AND to me.
Can't you see the character flaw? The capacity to lie to BOTH, JUST so he can feel good?
I wasn't hurt by the OW in my case. I was hurt by my ex.
The OW in my case had no idea I was even still on the scene.
This OP did!
I only relayed my story because a couple of people have suggested that the wife must know. I didn't and I don't consider myself stupid at all.
I am the child of a father who had an affair for years with the mother of a classmate of mine. By the time I was 11 I knew, although my father and the OW denied it. It was awful. I felt so ashamed of them, and of the gossip that probably did the rounds among other parents and teachers...
When I was 14 my parents finally split up; the OW is now my stepmother.
Thing is, I have never forgiven them for what they did. Now, with DC of my own, I can understand even less how on earth they could behave the way they did. I think of my father as a coward and find it hard to respect him.
Is that what you want your future relationship with your children to be OW?
Your logic is awfully skewed and convoluted. You contradict yourself with almost every phrase.
You seem terribly conflicted..try the Freedom Programme or CBT.
Wow, my being cheated on was my fault. So say the two OWs on this thread. So, I was cheated on either because I am a nasty person and deserves it, or because I was stupid! Nice. Chumplady:
"You know, one of the worst things about being cheated on is that whole crap that oh hey, you mustve known. You mustve been in on the deal some how. Had an arrangement. Or youre turning a blind eye. The unspoken is you kinda of deserve this for being such an oblivious idiot.
We all see the world from our own moral lens. If youve never experienced infidelity and you know that you wouldnt cheat on your spouse you do go around with a naivety. You wouldnt have done such a thing and you cant imagine a world in which the person you are most intimate with daily would do such a thing.
Thats why it is so shattering. It completely up-ends your view of the world, your sense of reality, of who you can trust.
But I come back to its not a pathology to trust your spouse. Its what normal, loving people do. And that is why betrayal and manipulation are so very ugly. Because abusers take that trust that social glue that binds us together and they turn it on you. Use it against you."
The two OWs on this thread need to take on board that wives are shattered by this. I honestly wondered what was real and what was not real. All instigated by my husband's ENTITLEMENT and ABUSE. They are not nice people, OWs. If you can get them out of our houses, you can have them.
But this is the pissy bit: they don't want to go So who really is stupid here?
If the two of you had the opportunity to be together, I doubt it would last. Real life doesn't come into it for you two, does it?
I think actually, you deserve each other. Affairs happen. Love happens. There are times when, if a marriage is already unstable, the affair can be the catalyst for two people to more on to a different life. But ten years of lies, deceit, using his kids as nurse maid, him (and you, it sounds like) only wanting the best bits..... None of the mundane day to day crap that happens in families? The pair of you are despicable.
Yes, I am judging. He's, I am judgemental. Your situation cannot be viewed in any other light other than totally selfish.
Wellwobbly I have never said that it is the wives fault.
All affairs are different and nobody can say who is at fault, NOBODY.
And I know that wives are shattered by this. I could have never predicted that I would be in this situation and to be perfectly honest, I would have probably said that same as you a few years ago.
I understand that you are very hurt, I honestly do.
*When I was 14 my parents finally split up; the OW is now my stepmother.
Thing is, I have never forgiven them for what they did. Now, with DC of my own, I can understand even less how on earth they could behave the way they did. I think of my father as a coward and find it hard to respect him*
Just my opinion, but it sounds like this was handled very badly by the parents. Its not what they did that was the problem, but how it was portrayed to you as a child and how you saw it.
My H is with the woman the he had an affair with and I would be devastated if I thought my children 'could never forgive them' or hated them!!
So, Imnotscared, what is the 'right' way to handle a 5 years affair then?
I would have respected my father a lot more if he and my mum had split up BEFORE he started on the affair. I.e., if there had not been an affair at all. Not after years and years of my siblings and me being unsettled and unhappy, and having our trust in our parents destroyed.
Now my father has to bear the consequences of his actions. I do have a relationship with him, of sorts, but I won't 'let him in', if that makes sense. He comes way down my list of people who are important to me. He knows this, although we never talk about it (he still can't bring himself to apologise and doesn't feel that what he did was that wrong, the deluded fool).
I think both you and the OP are in deep denial about what the possible outcome of this will be: children who despise you because of your betrayal. Having your children's trust and respect is a precious thing, and you're throwing it away for an illusion.
Biscuit I dont know what the right way was, but your Father and the OW are still toegther, so it must have been 'the right thing' for them.
imnotscared, please read my previous post:
I would have respected my father a lot more if he and my mum had split up BEFORE he started on the affair. I.e., if there had not been an affair at all. Not after years and years of my siblings and me being unsettled and unhappy, and having our trust in our parents destroyed.
Yes, marriage breakdown happens. Their being together may be the right thing for them, but they should have been less selfish and NOT had the long term affair. She has 3 children, 2 of who are pretty messed up. But my father and the OW still don't accept that their years of lying and cheating and denying what was going on could have anything to do with how their children/ the relationship with their children turned out.
I think you're just finding it hard to swallow that other people judge you (rightly imo), and that your children may come to judge you too at some stage. Because morally, you're in the wrong and deep down you know it.
My FIL left his young family for OW and his DC never got over his selfishness and deceit. His DD cut off all contact and he died a lonely old man.
You know when mm eventually leaves wife for ow (usually because he was found out and booted out) and they get married and live happily ever after?
Does anyone else suspect that the reason this next relationship works long term is because deceitful dirtbag has picked a target with considerably less self-respect (see ow input above) who is far more likely to put up with lying cheating malingering and is therefore simply adjusting his environment to suit his needs so to speak?
Blimey. Sometimes MN really enlightens you. You see the way some peoples minds work.
And it is so alien to your own.
I wonder what has happened to the Op since sunday.
of course affairs affect children, especially if that never sat down with then and apologised, so OP really don't just assmune the dc ar fine just because they don't voice it. You say IF they have an affair you'll tell them not to - no, you must speak to them now, assuming you've finished with the guy, then there is asmall chance that damage will be lessened at least.
On the other hand I know at least two older men who did go on to marry OW and the ow wasn't a doormat, confused, they werer genuinely more sutied and both strong women, they had dc and stayed together. It's a minority but of course it does happen.
sorry, 'if that parent never sat down with them..'
why would Op still stay here any longer, Oblomov? she's got her answers, but staying and being damned by people for days on end is too much for anyone.
Re men who marry OW, there is a statistic saying that in most cases it does not work out long term (e,g Anthea Turner). I wonder how many of these "successes" are down to them sticking together to prove that they were right to behave selfishly despite their relationship being founded on deceit.
possibly, Madabout, there is the added determination to prove a point. One of the man I know eventually split up from Ow, but only after 15yrs and a child together. Another was genuinely happy and they lived for 25 yrs and had dc until he recently died. He was actually a very good guy, and first marriage was when in his 20s..
All affairs are different and nobody can say who is at fault, NOBODY
For fuck's sake.
Wife does not put her husband's dick in another woman for him.
He does that all by himself.
Sorry to be so crude but i thought best to put it in clean black & white in order to be crystal clear, i know there's a whole mess of crap around it all and leading up to it, everybody is different, every relationship is different and all circumstances are different, it's difficult to be able to control how one feels etc, but at the end of the day:
ACTUALLY CHEATING IS A CHOICE
And it can only be the choice of the cheating partner, and to some extent the OW or M.
I say this from the perspective of having come close to cheating myself in a past relationship that was going nowhere, i've never been cheated on (to my knowledge!) Not once did I think for a second that the lines I was crossing were in any way the fault of my ex. How the fuck could I?!
Hi, I just want to begin by saying thanks for sharing your experiences and this thread has helped immensely. Yes, I thought it was damning and aggressive when first started but believe it's calmed somewhat. I have taken it all on the chin and I'm listening hard. Sadly, I didn't make it clear when I first posted, that I have already cut contact. Didn't mention it because it had only been a few days.
I have been pointed to an article by a PM (I've had many) about SELF SPLIT AFFAIRS, and basically, if Id read this article first, I would never have posted!! It covers everything and describes the behaviours of all THREE involved including the wife's (she has some responsibility).
I have also looked up the 'no contact' rule which I was in the midst of doing but this was also helpful. I wanted to clarify a few points and this is by no means is me not being accepting of your views or accepting that I have been wrong.
wellwobbly, I didn't say the wife was at fault alone purely because she has a career. Do not interpret this to mean I think all career women will/deserve to be cheated on. I stated she works long hours so he was left with the majority of childcare and yes, the domestics, which was probably a factor.
Biscuit I'm not sure every man who's ever left the family home due to an affair, will end up losing the respect of his children. You are tarnishing every situation with the same brush. I have a old friend who had an affair which split up his marriage, his daughter was school age. Despite the very negative input by her mother, she is now grown up with children of her own and has a very close bond with her father, moreso than her bitter mother.
If a man leaves the family home when children are very young, and the adult children no longer have respect him, its most probably to do with the mothers bitterness and input to the children as they have grown up, rather than themselves making that decision. Again, this is generalising. It doesn't apply to every situation.
My OWN two brothers have both had to fight to keep their relationship with their teenage children (now older) and NEITHER OF THEIR MARRIAGES broke down due to an affair. Wives can become unreasonable and my brother's wife changed the locks before he arrived home from work. Prior to this event, his relationship with his children had been fine. Now, they refused to speak to him! Sadly, it does happen.
At present my children are aged 16-21 and I too, have an excellent relationship with them, as do their Dad, who throughout the last ten years, has tried hard to maintain a bond with them. He didn't fall out of love with his children- he fell out of love with me.
If for whatever reason, their lives do not turn out to be successful in ten years time, I hope it will be due to something other than my affair. You are blighting their lives before they have even begun. I don't wish to give too many details but surely the fact that two of my children already have respected careers, and one at Uni, is enough to be proud of despite having been brought up by a Single mother (yes, even whilst I was having an affair) should count for something. Single mothers are normally tarnished as being benefit wasters and lazy and producing vile offspring. So, please, don't tarnish my childrens lives before they begin. You can't read the future.
Should they get married and their marriages break down, I would rather hope its due to their own doing, rather than mine!! It's always easy to blame the parents!
Oblomov, Incidentally, I have just x posted. I posted this morning without having read any of the six or so posts above. I am happy to reply to any of your posts but most of them weren't directed at me. The thread took on a discussion of its own by others giving their experiences. I have read each post with interest but surely you will appreciate, I can't reply to everyone of them. Nor do I wish to defend my actions. I accept what I did was immoral.
Not everyone is so daming of you. I wish you luck and a happy future.
DottyboutDots, thank you .
I did not seek this affair (as suggested) purely because my own marriage had broken down due to an affair by my exh. I didn't seek to hurt someone as revenge. I have questioned myself many times, why would I cause hurt to others, when I have experienced the aftermath of an affair myself but sadly, when in the throes of the excitement an affair brings, all reasoning disappears. Please don't read this as my defining my behaviour - it is a reason why I allowed it to continue.
Tell his wife. That'll get things moving. One way or another.
If you have left the affair then it's over surely?
Your first post is not a true reflection of what is going on- and I don't have time to read 12 pages.
You have to rebuild your life, just as if you had lost someone for good. So all the cliches about keeping busy, getting out, meeting new people etc apply to you now.
Maybe you need a 'buddy' who you can text, email, phone etc for support each time you are tempted to get in touch with this man?
I agree with others who say treat this as an addiction. You can get through this. But you need to be strong. I read somewhere that it takes 3 weeks to change your mindset and behaviour- so go cold turkey for that amount of time as a start. No calls, emails, contact- and ignore any from him. Really ignore!
Threetomatoes, the fact you begin your post with such crudeness implies the affair was purely sexual. The usual script
He was just using her for sex
He saw her once a month to relieve himself
Just because the wife wasn't putting out
Just because she was tired from work
This was the sole reason I took a back seat yesterday, because of the crudeness on this thread. I am strong enough to accept hard-hitting posts, but the crassness of some are a little surprising.
My relationship with OM (I agree, he's not MY man) was not purely based on sex. I have spoken about how supportive he has been throughout the ten years to me and my family. Emotionally and yes, physically. So again, don't generalise that all affairs are purely a sexual emotive. I do not consider the last ten years to be a waste of time. He has supported me enormously and for that I am thankful.
I'm not likening my affair to smoking but being an ex-smoker and giving it up for the right reasons, does not mean I didn't enjoy the pleasures of smoking and the release that cigarettes bring.
er has it gone a bit monochrome in here? That is, black and white.
Your long recent post OP seems simplistic to me. I am baffled by your pronouncements about single parents (and their children) for one. Your view seems out of date, more circa 1990s. Things have moved on a great deal since then. There is no social class that is without single parents, they are not the premise of the working classes ('benefit scroungers').
It is also no guarantee at all of a happy life that kids get to uni etc. That is completely besides the point - though, of course, something to congratulate you for and be proud of. It, however, doesn't guarantee them emotional and relational stability.
Other posters (OW iirc) assume that kids are angry with their cheating father because 'bitter' mothers have put them up to it. This suggests that adultery is just one of those ok things that happen; not great but not that bad. But it is bad for an awful lot of children (all?), whose home is suddenly split down the middle. This can be very traumatising for kids, regardless of any input from 'bitter' ( ) mothers. I am astonished that this black and white thinking has been applied to the very natural trauma and upset that kids experience as victims of parental infidelity/adultery.
The only winners (though that's debatable) in adultery are the selfish pair, who skip off, unable to 'resist' one another - more often than not leaving a trail of truly devastated people. Excuse me while I puke.
[just qualifying that I am not and never have been a spurned wife]
Adultery is crude - wake up, my dear. It is not noble in any way. It is dingy, sordid and crude.
Missbopeep, yes, I have cut contact, albeit it has just been a week. The longest I have been without contact is 3months. I have lots of support and I will do my damnest to see this through. He will normally remain quiet for a week or so, and then he texts. It doesn't have to be anything meaningful, just a 'hi' or an icon of sad face with a 'missing you'. Ashamedly, I have been too weak in the past to get past this.
No - this man's wife doesn't have any responsibility for his affair. She only has joint responsibility with him for his marriage.
I really think you need to re-read your last post and see how much your enmity towards women comes across. It was obvious in all your other posts how jealous and - to use your word - bitter you were towards this man's wife, but it seems that extends to many other women who've been in your life as well.
I see you're still peddling the myth about this man being left with the majority of the childcare for his own children despite it being obvious that with his full-time job, his business, his coaching hobby and his affair with you, he very obviously wasn't spending enough time with his family. It's just so bizarre to see this sort of delusion
I wonder what happened in your childhood to create this peculiar mindset towards your own sex?
I really wish you would stop blaming the wife for the fact her husband shags the local available woman with low morals.
Isn't it partly true that you have had to build this up as something more meaningful as otherwise I suspect the reality-ten and a half years wasted-would just be too much to deal with.
This thread reminds of those classic AIBU threads, where everyone (bar one or two lone wolfs) tell the OP over and over that they are BU, yet she refuses to (or simply can't) see it.
Springtats, I'm just saying that real life brings about many problems for children and adults alike through whatever reasons, i.e drugs, relationships with peers at school, self-esteem, image..... the list is endless. I just don't think all these problems arise out of their parents personal love lives.
It would be easy for people to say; had my daughter found the transition to Uni difficult and got caught up in drugs, drinking, relationship problems (that a lot of students do), that the blame was purely mine!! 'no wonder she's screwed up, look what she had to put up with when she was young'.
Touch wood, she has experienced none of those issues and continues to be grounded and mature and a very happy 20yr old who so far, has sailed through the transitions of whatever challenges life has dished out so far.
OK, so what you do now is block his number(s). Or you get a new sim and don't give him the number.
Then you set up a filter on your email which sends anything from him straight into the delete folder and you DON'T LOOK.
Your post suggests that children whos parents split over one parent meeting someone else will be devastating per se. So, if one parent left and THEN started a new relationship would that be OK? what if they met the person, left the relationship and then started to see the other person?
What I am trying to say is that marriages end !! it happens !! it is then up to the aprents of any children involved to make sure that there isnt any bitterness or upset for the children.
And I am saying this from the point of view as a spouse of an adulterer, there is no way that I would want my children to view my ex as the baddy! hes their Dad!!
Levenheath, yes, you're right. Apologies. I meant to say the article refers to the wife having joint responsibility for what happens in a marriage, my mistake. By this, my reasoning was, if she felt that her marriage was in trouble, both parties would do their utmost to try and change things. This didn't happen.
MissStrawberry During the last 21yrs, I have had only two partners, that being my exhusband and my lover. Please don't be crass and assume I am the local shag and judge me.
Having an affair does not automatically brand you a whore.
Your daughter is only 20, look back when she is 40 and then assess what damage has been done to her.
You are so quick to forgive yourself, you really shouldn't be.
I think MissStrawberry means you are one of his local shags, not that you are the the local shag IYSWIM?
But honestly, all judgement put aside, I strongly suggest counselling. If you can't accept (and you clearly can't, you've repeatedly stated how wonderful the affair was) how damaging this was to you and your kids, you need outside help to realise this was a big mistake and you DO deserve better. You need your self esteem raised so that you can be a better mother, if not for yourself.
Touch wood, she has experienced none of those issues
I've just been reading another thread where a bomb that has been waiting to go off in someone's life has finally gone off. The bomb was planted in her childhood, just to be clear.
Adultery is a specific strike against a person. And yes, problems with drink, drugs, you name it, can arise from this very specific strike. As well as disordered relating etc.
I am astonished at how simplistic you are being about this. You have normalised your adultery, normalised adultery. It is not normal or in the normal run of things ie 'just one of those things'. It is truly horrible for all concerned - apart from the selfish, self-absorbed pair.
it is then up to the aprents of any children involved to make sure that there isnt any bitterness or upset for the children
'Bitterness' or upset for the children is not something you can control! I am AMAZED that you genuinely think you can.
A split marriage is - almost always - extremely upsetting and destabilising for the children of that marriage. That is just a given - whether the split happens because of adultery, or the split happens and then the split parents move on to other partners.
Look, in the scheme of things I don't give a toss.
I am not a wronged wife, I have not been a mistress. I don't know you or anyone involved with you. I don't have anything invested in whether you listen to me or anyone else.
You say you are listening but you are not. You filter what everyone says to construct a way in which if they agree with you, they are smart and empathic. If they disagree you dismiss them by any device you can - they are stereotyping/bitter/misunderstanding/crude blah blah.
All of this is to hold on to the idea that you had a romance not an affair because you were in love and his wife didn't do enough to 'keep him' so deserved it.
I will bet my house and all it's contents that that is a self serving bunch of crap and that until you see the last decade for what it was - deception, betrayal, selfishness, delusion and cruel indifference to anyone other than yourself - you will learn nothing and gain nothing from finally making the right decision.
I think you lack the courage to really see clearly the poor choices you have made but, just in case you do, I will wish you good luck.
We all make mistakes. Some can last years. I have made some horrors although not in my relationship. But we only move on when we admit we have been blinkered and foolish. If you could actually accept that you might recover some dignity.
The pain of a split due to adultery is particularly acute for the children - as well as, of course, the betrayed spouse; who has to somehow keep functioning for the sake of the kids.
A beleaguered, devastated, wounded parent is not good for the kids, all in all.
Your quote I meant to say the article refers to the wife having joint responsibility for what happens in a marriage, my mistake. By this, my reasoning was, if she felt that her marriage was in trouble, both parties would do their utmost to try and change things. This didn't happen.
In my case, I had no idea XH was unhappy until the day he walked out. Total shock. In the meantime, he was texting OW thousands of times a month. Also a total shock as well hidden from me. Begged XH to try and make marriage work, he wouldnt even consider it.
I always say that I was hung for a crime I didn't even know I had committed. If these men tried to work on their marriages instead of turning to OW, there would be a lot less divorce.
Jux, I have already blocked his number on mobile. I didn't know about the e-mail filter. I will do that too. I've also told him, if he carries out his threat to 'call round and see me', I will phone his wife (we have tried this before) but I guess he knew under no circumstances would I ever tell his wife, as he knows I'm not vindictive and wouldn't want to cause her further hurt.
For those who post that I am jealous of her, for what do you base that assumption on? I am not a jealous person by nature. I have no reason to be jealous of her. Its easy for me to say she has put up with a lot in her marriage, moreso than I would have. I can sit here and write what excellent qualities she does have.... it has no bearing on my original thread. I didn't want to make this post personal about her. My big mistake was mentioning that she works long hours, and I got crucified for doing so.
May be his wife has an affair as well. This way the children have a complete family. May be his wife does not even care if her husband has a lover. Some partners go off sex, not bothered by it and do not mind the other half to enjoy it with someone else. I think if my husband had such long affair I would have known. Do not think that she is a silly career-oriented woman. She might be having the last laugh.
If a man leaves the family home when children are very young, and the adult children no longer have respect him, its most probably to do with the mothers bitterness and input to the children as they have grown up, rather than themselves making that decision.
Not in my FIl's case - his DC continued to idolise him and their mother was careful not to pollute their minds. It was only when his DC became adults that the scales fell from their eyes esp when their own DC came along. Then when his DD's husband left her for OW, she realised she could never respect a cheater, esp one who isn't reformed so cut off all contact from her own father.
Gehj, I am not trying to 'jump on the band wagon' but it isn't about the fact that you have brought up four children (so have I), it isn't even the fact that you have a respectable job (so do I). It's none of those things.
You cannot justify your doings by the fact that you have brought up a family single-handedly.
I think you need to withdraw from this man, slowly. I don't think making any rash decisions will make for success. You've been with this man for a decade, you won't be able to erase him from your life that quickly. And regardless of what other posters have said, you were in a relationship with this man, OP.
Take things one day at a time. Realise that it is going to take a lot of emotionaly energy to move away from this man's charms. It will take a lot of heartbreak and a lot of resolve.
Good luck and I really hope you find what is needed to completely move away from this man.
Perfect post Pagwatch <applauds>
I'm trying hard not to be judgy but I don't know how you've lived with yourself for a full decade! The guy was married, off limits, with small children when you began this affair. If the vile man at the centre of this couldn't say no, you should have! How would you feel if you were his wife? He should, if he really wanted to be with you, have done things properly ie. come clean with his wife, divorced, looked after the kids financially/ maintained a relationship with them etc, then started a relationship with you. You've wasted ten years on a total arsehole who thinks it's okay to shit all over his wife and kids. What a catch, not!
Pagwatch I do see it was a wrong choice and I accept I should have had the courage to stop this before it all started. I hope I will be able to return here in a few months (years?) with a more positive update. I guess what has made my thread more damning than others is the length of time involved.
I had no intention of returning to this thread this morning, as allaflutter mentioned, there is only so much you or I can discuss.
I will take with me what has been written, and remain positive that I can change my life around.
Thank you for taking the time to post.
Gehj, as much as I disagree with your choices and... I don't know what to say, choices? Well anyway, you get my point.
Would you consider counselling for yourself? If nothing else, a therapist can help you stay away for good without temptation being 'a stones throw away' like crack for a drug addict. They can turn you off your addiction completely, which is in everyone's best interest, especially you and your oldest daughter.
A counsellor's job is to work towards helping you to face reality. You've had that on here for free.
imo you would have no trouble dropping him with horror if you faced what has really been going on for a decade.
Do not tell his wife in any case. She might know about your affair but she might not. 10 years is a long affair but for some couples even one short affair would be enough to break up the marriage. Just sort it out with him without involving his wife. Why do not you start meeting up with friends, do some charity work, go to the gym. Just stay busy and have no time for him. You are single but he is not. For the sake of his wife and children he should not have let this affair to have happened. He blames her work. That just a poor excuse. My DH works long hours and often comes home late and I know he is at work because of the nature of his job but I do not have an affair.
If your do not own a house you could simply find another one.If your children ask why, you could make things up. Be careful with his obsession. Men sometimes go crazy because of their selfishness.
Good luck gehj. Counselling would be good. I saw one a few months after H ended his affair as my self-confidence and the view I had of myself was in my boots . I think a good counsellor would help you over the transition.
Special, yes of course, I would consider counselling. I have proved I am strong-willed by returning to this thread and have taken responsibility for my actions. I truly wish if someone had directed me to the SELF SPLIT AFFAIR theory, I would have tried a LITTLE HARDER to remove myself from the situation.
I have learned so much and I agree that I was using my Single parent status as an excuse, like I deserved a little help along the way (which he provided)....
I have more than excused my behaviour, as the more I thought my children were successful in school and thereafter, that it wasn't affecting their well being.
I now SEE that his wife not being at home was an excuse to excuse MY behaviour and my reasoning to continue.
I see now that every reason I came up with to excuse MY affair was caused by either OM or me. Before this thread, that had never entered my mind.
I think my main reasoning for continuing with the affair for so long, was because I knew for a long time, she was unaware of its existence. It was only the latter few years that I began thinking, how have we got away with this for so long.
For the past couple of years, I feel that she has known and has turned a blind eye because she has her work, which she loves, and also her hobby which takes her out of the home and involves long hours.
In the early stages, part of me wanted the affair to be revealed for my own personal benefit but towards the end, I knew it would be messy and cause hurt to all parties so I'm thankful it has remained secret to his wife and family and I don't see why it should ressurect itself in the future.
If it does, that will be something I guess I deserve and will deal with.
What concerns me more than anything about the issues I've been faced with is that 'I don't feel I lack self-esteem' nor feel that I 'deserved more' because I enjoyed what I had. Not once during this time did I feel I deserved better because I was happy.
I hope counselling can answer those questions for me.
I think I can now answer my own theory in that I was happy with the positives he brought to my relationship because I guess I didn't have to deal with the mundane domestics a marriage brings which is probably why I didn't want to commit earlier on after three years. (My children then were aged 11, 10, 8 and 7 and I knew I didn't want the added burden of a new relationship in their lives) which is why I kept it separate. It was at this time when he left into rented accommodation, my children were told of our relationship.
I'm sorry to say, at no time have I ever been questioned about my actions by friends or family (except my Mother!) and that's why I am grateful for the past 36hrs. I have been challenged to the hilt and for the first time ever, I have been made to THINK how and why this has been allowed to continue.
OP, how have you broached this with your DC. This man has been a big part of their lives for so long. This is bound to affect them in the same way as if you were married to him and suddenly decided on no contact.
These things do ALWAYS come out. No matter what! When it does, the wife and their DC's illusion of their family unit will be shattered and they will all be left questioning everything and analysing every little detail of their existence as a unit.
I think the only way to move on from this would be to tell the truth. For both you and your 'lover' to deal with the fall out now so that his wife and their children can deal with it and hopefully move on and build the rest of their lives on the truth rather than lies.
I'm sure this won't be a popular suggestion but I'd rather deal with 10 years of lies rather than find out after 20 or 30 years and then look back and regret my life.
I truly feel very sorry for the wife and both sets of children in this.
OP, I can't understand how you can have felt 'truly' happy and experienced that emotion without ever having felt the almost opposite emotion of sadness that you and he were putting his wife and family through the same hurt that your ex put you through?
If you felt truly happy, then I can't believe that you have seen the last 10.5 years through rosé tinted glasses?
I really hope you can get some help with counselling as it really does sound like you have suppressed a lot of your emotions in an attempt o make the best of things.
I can't say I understand you or your actions but I hope you can get some help for this.
mumat39, I have not discussed my relationship with OM with my children on any level. He has never slept overnight in my home nor had an evening meal. They have been involved with him as a family friend, i.e he would have coffee at mine, do DIY, speaks to them on a level of a friend, uncle etc. I don't think his absence from my life will bother them tbh because they are at the stage of developing their own love lives and interests and are not heavily involved in mine.
I also think (having not been exposed now), that the chances of this affair coming to the fore for his family are very slim. Unless OM suddenly professes its me he wants and leaves her to be with me!!! Even then, I think he would say, our marriage isn't working and I want to leave.
I don't think he would bring me into the equation to save hurting her more than necessary.
If this was to happen and we did get together, of course she would put 2 and 2 together and say, we were having an affair all along. But as its been said many a time, if he really wanted me long term, he would have left by now so I don't even think about it.
I hope you can now start to move on.
My advice is not to cause more hurt by telling anyone. Put it behind you, accept your behaviour was 'questionable' at best, and pretty shabby at worst, and resolve to stop and not go back.
You are worth more whether you think it now or not because all you ever had was half measures from a man who would not commit to you.
I really hope that you are seeing the light now, and that it is genuine rather than to quieten the thread. If it is, good luck. Personally I would say tell her. With it a secret, her life is a lie, a sham. I would prefer the hurt and chaos of the bust up than that if I were her. I think it incredibly unfair to leave her never knowing.
glam I can genuinely say, before this thread, I have never questioned my life with him. I may be strong-willed but thankfully, I am also always willing to listen and enjoy learning (education teaches you that). I am amazed at what I have gleaned from this thread and it has managed to get through to me. That's why I was annoyed earlier on, when posts kept saying... 'you're not listening' or 'she is ignoring what we're saying'.
The only thing I don't wish to do for sure is follow the the advice of telling her. I don't see how that will help her or her children.
Two of her children have already left home and set up home for themselves and the emphasis is now on the parents to make what they will of their existing marriage without my presence (I will never know for sure if she knew or not).
It wouldn't help. It would force her hand and whether intend to or not, it would appear vengeful and spiteful. Don't do it.
If you do want to go no contact, then makeit clear you will tell his wife if he turns up on your doorstep. Do you know her email address? If I was you, I'd now, calmly, write an email to her explaining your affair, the history, the length of relationship - no emotion or anger, just details. save it in your drafts without her email address in it (to avoid accidentally sending it). If he does turnup after being told to stay away, put in her address and send to her.
That way you aren't writing it when angry/emotional - but that will end it one way or another. Even if he convinces her it's all crap, he might just be angry enough at you to not want anything else to do with you - so the relationship will end. Or his wife will throw him out - but then your relationship won't be an affair anymore, and I dont think you really will enjoy the relationship if it's dull day to day not snatched moments of excitment, so it'll end again shortly afterwards.
However, do you really want to end this situation? Because for over 10 years you haven't actually done that. When he left his wife and returned to her, you didn't then try to get him to leave again once he was well, you encouraged the situtation to continue.
I know several woman who've been OWs and I don't think it's not wanting to 'do that to her' or reluctance to be seen as 'vindictive' that's stopping you telling his wife about the affair - I think it's because it will give a finality that's out of your control to it. Right now, he wants you, he wants to keep the relationship going - you are ending it, you are blocking him, you are certain he's going to come running to beg you to take him back. Can your ego cope with the idea that you might do something that annoys him so much that he decides he doesn't actually want you anymore? Is what's stopping you properly ending it because you don't want to feel like he's fine without you? Right now, the drama is still there, this big ending of the love affair. But if you tell his wife, the drama will continue, but suddenly you won't be in the centre of it anymore. You'll be cut out and single. Do you really want that?
I've been a long time reader of 'agony aunt' columns for decades- and this forum is an amateurs' version of that.
The overall feeling of 'agony aunts' including a few who I respect- eg Bel Mooney-is that you should NEVER tell.
It will do no good. If HE wants to tell, so be it- that is his choice .
It never does any good to interfere in someone else's marriage- and although that may sound a bit 'rich' in the case of a 10 year affair, the principle still stands.
I don't get the advice of those of you who say telling is best- all it would do is hurt another woman. And it's no defence to say 'I'd like to know', or that you were glad to be told- you are not her and you don't know how she would feel.
For all we know, she may know already or have been prepared to turn a blind eye- I know of marriages where this kind of thing has happened and wives have ignored for years .
I think that the advice to 'tell' comes from some kind of mis-placed ' do gooders' but it really doesn't do any good.
Dontmind, I thought long and hard about my goal before I made my very first post. I have invested a lot of time on this site (its the first time in my life I have made contact with virtual people!)
Whenever I have a problem, I usually like to tackle them head on and try and sort things as soon as- (my exh liked to sweep things under the carpet and so things never got resolved).
I am grateful I have led a fairly quiet in life in that I've never experienced any real drama in my life other than my divorce and after the initial heartache that divorce brings, life resumed as smoothly as was possible under the circumstances.
If OM doesn't take steps to try and 'win me' back, then of course my ego will take it.
I already have friends and a social life I can revert to. I am happy with my own company and I don't see myself as needy.
I have friends who are always 'internet dating' looking for 'the one' and practically sleep with everyone of them. I don't see myself as one of those.
I have never entered into a site of ANY kind before Sunday, so that must surely go to the level of my commitment I am making.
I KNEW because you weren't personally involved in my life, you would tell it as it is and boy have you not held back .
The only time I would say this thread got messy was earlier on when the background was being set and posts of all kinds were made suggesting did he do this and how did he manage to do that, without knowing the full facts.
I hope I've proved to be worthy of your time. It has been so critical to my line of thought.
OP, in the nicest possible way get a grip. If you wanted to end this affair it would be really rather easy. Just. Stop. Contact. You really are blowing it up into something it isn't. Ending a marriage is complicated by joint assets, children, and all sorts of ties, meaning it is hard to make a quick clean break, but you're in the luxurious position of not having any of that hassle. So, end it, or don't, but just get on with it.
Worsestershire, I get it. I have cut contact and I will no longer post.
Good for you, and good luck.
OP I DID NOT brand you a whore. Read what I said. If you are seeing something that isn't there then that isn't my problem.
Bottom line you have been having sex with someone else's husband for over 10 years and your children have been party to that. There is no defensible excuse to that and your children will have been affected by it.
OP you have spectacularly missed the point of my post.
My post was purely about who is to blame for an affair, in response to the assertion that I put in bold.
I know it's not always just about sex. When I was in the previous relationship I mentioned, I fell quite hard for another guy, I think we had chemistry, even spoke of it once, but he was a decent guy and wouldn't even go there, and my own moral compass stopped me from pursuing it, I simply could not have allowed myself to cheat on my ex. I felt awful that I had feelings for this other guy. I tried to keep my feelings in check and mentally beat myself up a lot about it all. The most we ever did was danced together once, and I once spent the night in his bed with him (completely platonic other than how I felt about him) - and went a couple of times for a drink just the two of us.
Other than that, I would crash over at a couple of other male friend's houses, as mates (in their beds), I had a dance, i had a peck on the lips, i fancied the pants off of a few guys, flirted, engaged in inappropriate texts once (one-sided, but i did enjoy the attention, it has to be said) - but didn't enter into an affair - didn't snog anyone, didn't have sex. (Basically I was out drinking a lot with a bunch of work mates and we'd often go back to someone's house after pub closing time). I felt guilty about all this stuff, but professed innocence when my ex questioned me (pretended I crashed on sofas with a 'bunch' of people, that sort of thing).
The bottom line is -
NONE OF THE ABOVE WAS MY EX'S FAULT.
Or anything to do with how he was, or even how our relationship was. There is NOTHING he could have done to have changed how I was. It was all about Me.
There comes a point, a line, that needs to be crossed, a crossroads if you will, where you can say NO and choose not to do it - whatever came before it, whatever the reason you've found yourself there, whatever your feelings are for the other person. In my post i crudely described that line as putting one's dick in another woman. I deliberately wanted to be crude, I admit, because i felt quite strongly against your assertions. For me personally, nowadays, the line is crossed waaaaaaay before that point and I crossed it BIGTIME while in my previous relationship, i was busy kidding myself i wasn't doing anything wrong. Man am I so glad i am not in that place any more and haven't been for a long time...
Can't help it - perhaps a counsellor will get you out of your head. Because you've got it all sewn up up there but the evidence suggests otherwise.
I find your self-assurance trying tbh. No wonder you donked everyone on the head who didn't agree with you. A bit of self-doubt might not go amiss OP. I honestly don't know if you're going to be able to bear the truth because it will tip all your self-assurance into the mud. I hope - not maliciously - that's beginning to happen.
If you end up in a legit relationship, you'll know all the tricks. You won't for one minute be able to rest because you will know exactly what cheating bastards get up to. You will also have a very good idea of the mindset of the person who is complicit in what he may, or may not, be doing.
From a research pov it has been interesting to see the workings of an OW - an unrepentant, selfish OW (oh, hang on, that's tautology). An OW who justifies herself to the very hilt, and then some. It has been agonising reading - and I'm not even a betrayed wife. I know that betrayed wives on MN have said they have found this thread unbearable to read.
However, I'm not sure you do represent all OW. I think a lot get caught and know on some level that it's wrong.
If you call his wife - how do you have her number? - because he has turned up then you will come across as vindictive. She has not done anything wrong to you and you have no business contacting her. Clearly you also had no business shagging her husband but surely you already know that.
Why some of you suggest OP to contact his wife? Do you think things will get better. A tragedy could develop as a result of it. Just walk away and that it. Do not even scare him by telling you would contact his wife. Just finish it and that it. some of you either naive or want to add some oil into the flame.
Clearly you also had no business shagging her husband but surely you already know that.
I'm not sure she does Strawberry
It has been agonising reading - and I'm not even a betrayed wife.
I'm not surprised. I feel sick reading some of these posts and I'm not a betrayed wife either. OP you write with such coldness and blinding self-absorption it's terrifying. You keep saying "I know what I've done is morally wrong" but I'm not getting that you really feel that, or care.
Oh and BTW - I was using my Single parent status as an excuse, like I deserved a little help along the way (which he provided)
Just - when this is written in relation to an affair with a married man. I find it astounding that you can't even see the audacity of this statement.
I was a lone parent (not single though) for quite some time, you & i are so utterly different with how we view this, that i can't begin to even respond. WTF?! Where was your self-respect, your womanly strength and independence, and integrity?
I had a BF (became current DP), we were together because we loved each other, of course, very much independent from each other for quite a long time as we wanted to take things slow under the circumstances, but weird as it sounds, single parenthood would actually have been a lot easier if I was, in fact, single.
OP I just want to say that I very, very rarely really challenge someone on MN. I'm too scared generally and unsure of my own opinion, and I'm generally a pretty understanding person, understand in the main that people come from all walks, etc etc. Only when I see something that really does take the biscuit do I speak up the way I am here.
What is it with the late comebacks??
I could stay on here forever and say I'm sorry, I regret it, I was wrong but still, someone will always come up with a comment that will relight the thread.
MissStrawberry, read the posts and facts. I do not have any plans, nor will I be contacting her.
I know she hasn't done anything wrong.
Springytats Yes, I had no business involving myself in a sexual relationship with her husband and i Do know it.
It seems just when the thread has nothing more to say, someone else will pipe up with something that has either been discussed or say something that I've already agreed with. If I ignore the answer, someone will say OP why haven't you answered. If I agree with you, i'm not being genuine.
OP, you aer not going to please all posters - it's impossible. Just go, and good luck with ending with the guy as easily as possible, but if he does leave his wife now that dc are grown, please don;t rush imnto any decisions.
My dear, you have thrown in a hand grenade. People feel very strongly about this sort of thing.
It's not your thread btw. Yes you started it but you're not in control of what happens to it, it doesn't belong to you. You have said some truly outrageous things - without breaking stride - and posters are just going to have to say their piece, spluttering as they go.
Take it on the chin. you deserve it tbf. don't be lecturing people, thinking you have a leg to stand on - because you don't.
springytats I was trying to give her a little bit of credit that she wasn't 100% as she comes across.
OP, at 13.21 you said you told him you would call his wife if he turned up. As for the late comebacks you can 't dictate when people will reply to a thread and once you post it becomes public property and someone could very well post on this in 6 months time. This is a global site and some people will be reading and replying while you are asleep. This will run and run and that is partly because you don't seem to get it at all. If you had said you knew you were wrong to start an affair, involve your kids and were sorry then you would probably had had a whole different set of replies.
I wasn't thinking she should be told to be spiteful. I was just thinking that now matter how ugly, I personally, would want to know the truth. I used to work in a company where a senior person was having an affair with anther senior person. They had been caught in the act on a few occasions and the gossip was rife!
The senior mans wife also worked at this company and it seemed she was the only one who didn't know. She did find out later and was utterly devastated.
Anyway, that was obviously the wrong thing to suggest. I apologise for that.
OP, I hope your children are oblivious to his absence from your lives and I wish you well. good luck and I hope you succeed in cutting all ties.
OP, some people only read the first post, and perhaps a few more of the op's posts, and then they respond. So their responses are not necessarily right up to date. You can read them, think about what they're saying and maybe respond - generally if a change of heart has occurred and conciliatory reply goes down better than a complaint. Or you can ignore them. Either way is fine.
Your thread is quite long and atm a bit notorious on MN, so people are coming to this thread a bit late because not everyone MN's at the weekend. And most people don't really have time to read over 300 posts.
I am sure you are strong enough to take it, though.
Yes, I had no business involving myself in a sexual relationship with her husband and i Do know it.
You don't regret one second of it though, do you?
You didn't even want him for yourself, you just wanted him as a bit on the side, for your own convenience,to fill some sort of void.
BTW, I'm a bit confused about something
At Sun 22:51 you said "the reason he told her he was leaving was because he was no longer in love with her and he was having an affair with me."
Was she ever told or not, because all your other posts suggest she wasn't?
I expect wife knows nothing because op is only going on what dirtbag told her and she knows wife very well and sees her all the time but says nothing about being regularly spat on by wife!
So wife must know but does nothing and gives no clue that she knows .
I think not and I also think regardless of the crap that will ensue the poor woman has a right to know and make her own decision about who she wants in her life. I hope she is reading this and working it out.
It must be so rewarding to be the woman who has sloppy seconds, who's partner has 'not really been that into her' for 10 years, to never be able to plan any kind of shared life, to know your perfect partner loves another woman far more than he loves you, to know your partner sees you as a cheap shag and no more than that, to gobble up love scraps as if it's the real deal. Your relationship with this man is as shit as shit can be by definition. One day you will be the wife (not with him, that's for sure) and I hope some deluded little upstart shags your husband, that is bound to happen by the way because like attracts like. What a depressing post and think you'll not get much sympathy here on mn.
agree confused. It will blow up when she finds out, and I couldn't give a toss what it looks like the op is doing it for, the woman has a right to know!!
Jeez, if anyone knows me in RL and I have a long term DP that is having an affair, PLEASE tell me, be you the OW or not. I don't want to live in a lie!!!
I think Gehj IS thinking about all this stuff. To be honest? For me it would be nice if 'my' OW, you know, the one that knowingly colluded in my betrayal, emotional and sexual abuse, indicated a fraction of Gehj's acknowledgements.
Good luck OP and let us know what happens.
As a random aside, for anyone who is/was an OW: do you wonder about the wife the way the wife wonders about you? It's just that the woman involved in my DH's affair sort of cyber stalks me.... still. She views my linked in regularly.... that kind of thing. I don't much like it, but on the other hand at least I know she is doing it. It would probably be worse to be paranoid about it without proof.
I wish someone could tell the wife about your cheap and dirty affair. Of course women can have it all. What about the house wives who get cheated on? Ladies if you can have a career and support your children. Good on you. Don't let some uninspiring cheating cow make you feel guilty. No woman deserves to be cheated on, career woman or not.
This is absolutely fascinating. My XH had occasional bouts of amnesia when it came to his wedding vows, although strangely was desperate to stay married when it finally came down to it (years ago, have been happily remarried for ages - he's on this 4th partner)
I totally blamed him for the affairs, but I did always wonder how his 'diversions' justified it to themselves.
Now I think I know. There's just a 'bit' missing. Not sure what exactly it is, but a lack of something. Empathy, conscience, soul, something.
Rather sad really ...
There are elements of your OP that read like ad copy -- 'How do I find the strength to leave a relationship that provides me with everything that a woman would relish except commitment! i.e love, companionship, support, fun and anything that a newlywed would be proud of', for instance.
You were surprised that the whole thing lasted 10 years. You expected to dip your feet for a little fun and then move on?
You sound very shallow tbh.
You are going to go through grief and also some soul searching before you will be able to move on. The soul searching should ideally involve some examination of why you think you are entitled to fun at the expense of someone else's happiness (we all get one go at this life after all) and also why it was so easy for your lover to string you along for so long.
You gave ten years of your life for something very insubstantial and something that you show you yourself perhaps incapable of appreciating in your OP (that ad copy). A relationship isn't a commodity or something consisting of elements that can be assessed or graded - passion, whatever.
You are only going to get one bite at this cherry too. Get counselling to try to understand why you wasted so much of your time and energy on something completely insubstantial and essentially unreal, and to be very old fashioned about it, do some penance (because it isn't all about you and you injured others in these ten years of addiction).
A friend of my mothers started off like you. She was divorced, "fell" into a relationship with a man who was married with a son. He claimed he couldn't leave until his son was older as it would destroy the family. And so it went on. For years. And years. She has now been his mistress for over 30 years. His son is grown up and he has grandchildren. They are in their 60s and he still is with his wife and seeing her on the side.
She has settled for a part time relationship with a liar and a cheat. She never had her own children. She still lives alone in her flat. She tries to fill her spare time now she is retired with hobbies and friends - most of whom are couples who feel sorry for her.
She sees him twice a week and they snatch the occasional weekend away. What a waste of life.
But the worst thing was when he got sick.
She had no idea what happened. He just stopped answering his phone. Because you see, the people who were called by the hospital were his REAL family - his wife, son and grandchildren. She had no idea what had happened to him, she couldn't go to him in the hospital because his wife was by his bedside. She eventually found out through a mutual friend and got infrequent updates on his state of health.
He did recover. But now she knows what will happen when he dies. She will be waiting for news like any other acquaintance. The person who will be by his bed, the person who will be sitting in the funeral car, the person who will be comforted by his loved ones will be his WIFE. Not her. Never her.
She will be alone, unremarked, unremebered, just a dirty, shameful secret that, please God, his family never discovers.
How sad. Perhaps this is what waits for you.
Maybe remembering my mums poor friend will help you resist when you want to get back in touch. Breaking away is so hard but not as hard as what she has ended up with.
That's bloody grim.
I feel sorry for everyone in that scenario except the husband.
I'm fairly neutral over this whole thing - I'm not going to judge you.
But you might like to think about what appears to be a lack of self control in your behaviour?
I'd noticed how you keep coming back to this thread even though you say you are leaving it.
Sounds familiar? See any parallels?
Maybe you need to work on that aspect of your personality which will enable you to make the change you say you want.
Math- I do think your post, although with some truth and very valid points in it, is harsh because it simply projects your own beliefs.
You can't accuse someone of being shallow simply because their post is should we say 'articulate' ( maybe the OP is a writer- who knows.)
Neither can you say with any authority that her affair was insubstantial. Maybe it would be to you- but you are not the OP, and to her it may have had plenty of substance. Yes, it lacked commitment which presumably she wanted as some point, but if we applied your idea of insubstantial to other relationships and situations - ie friendships, employment- which are often transitory, then it would follow that they are insubstantial too- which of course they aren't.
I've known a few close friends who got themselves into these kinds of situations which is why I'm a bit more sympathetic, because I know that whatever is written on a forum doesn't show the whole picture or the true person. Posters are judged on every word they write, which does not always truly reflect who they are.
I think the OP was mistaken to post here. This forum is notorious as the home for women who have been cheated on, so it's not the best place for an OW to pour her heart out- ever.
OP- maybe find some good friends in real life who can support you.
Excuse amateur psychology, but I also wondered that you have done precisely what was done to you. Apparently it goes that sometimes the pain of abuse is so intense that the abused identifies with the abuser in order to make 'sense' of it. Which, of course, makes no sense of it at all. An example is (sorry) a child who is sexually abused and then goes on to sexually abuse their own children. Makes no sense.
I also wonder if, along the same lines, you erroneously thought that affairs are the way to go; your husband may have been unkind but, get with the times, this is how modern life is. Perhaps even getting a thrill from being so 'modern'.
I'm casting around, you see. Trying to understand this.
She posted in exactly the right place imo. She needed her bubble popped and that's precisely what has happened (one hopes). Good for all concerned imo - apart from the man I should've thought.
Of course it was essentially insubstantial. She has based the past 10 years on a corner of someone's cloth. He may have crammed quite a lot into that corner but it was a corner nonetheless.
Seeing as the OP herself has said that this thread has challenged her and introduced her to viewpoints she's never encountered in real life, I can't see how anyone would think her posting here has been a bad idea unless it's touching a nerve in the reader.
As for this being the home for hurt wives, lots of contributors to this thread aren't in that position. Threads like this always attract a cross section of posters and this one's no different. There are the true neutrals who've neither dealt with nor had an affair, posters who've been on the receiving end of an affair, people who've had affairs or have been OW and posters who claim to be neutral but aren't.
Forums like this are great for introducing someone to a range of opinions she might never hear in real-life from people who are too invested or too scared to tell the truth. If there's a consensus on a thread from a much larger selection of people than would ever be consulted in real-life- and it's at odds with what that smaller selection of RL people are saying, the most rational conclusion is that the RL stuff is probably getting filtered to spare hurt feelings and to protect the filterers' own interests.
Leaven - I think you need to read this forum more often and more carefully. IME there is an excess of women posting about unfaithful husbands- far more so than most of us ever experience in RL.
There is also- and I am pointing out what many other MNs have said over the years ( and nothing at all to do with me 'the reader' having a nerve touched) that this is NOT the place for the OW to post and expect a fair trial.
I've been here for years Missbopeep and I completely disagree with you. I've seen a lot of threads where an OW has had really good advice. But what makes advice 'good' is subjective. Sometimes the best advice is the type that helps you to see things differently and which challenges long-held views.
Also, of course we're going to read about painful events on a forum more than we encounter them in real life. Isn't that rather obvious?
The bottom line is the OP has said she's found this thread helpful so I'm wondering why you are second-guessing what she herself has said?
We can all relate to betrayal, it doesn't have to have happened to us. It is a core fear, we are all vulnerable to it, particularly if (as?) we are tuned into ourselves and our needs. The OP tuned out at some point, I think.
I'm slightly at a loss as to why the scorned women's perspective is seen as irrelevant. Surely this is exactly the sort of information the OP needs as she seems very cut off from the normal empathetic responses of shame and guilt that her poor behaviour should elicit.
It's not about pillorying the OP, but giving her insight into the hurt she has caused to both herself, her children and her MM family. At present she seems to be able to see some of this on an intellectual level but is cut off from it emotionally. The bad feelings are necessary and healing, they will help her to break from this destructive pattern of behaviour and stop her repeating it in the future - saving her from them is not the kindness that you think it is.
Missbopeep, I disagree too. You have to think about why people would post for instance. You are more likely to start a thread if you have a problem - my relationship doesn't seem to be working, what do I do? - for instance, than if everything's hunky dory - my relationship is great, what do I do?
When you think of how many people are on MN, posting and lurking, then the number of people with serious relationship problems is small.
Then think about the sort of responses people get here, as opposed to some other sites. Mostly here it's no nonsense. There are many other sites where it's figurative cups of tea and a shoulder. Some people only want that, but some people want the truth no matter how much it hurts.
I agree Wahla. Reading threads on here from women who've been hurt by affairs really helped me when a relative's marriage hit trouble. That perspective in all its painful detail and realism wasn't available to me in real life, but then neither was the OW's perspective and at the time, I'd only encountered OWs who I'd never have chosen to be friends with for lots of other reasons, so it was useful to get a range of perspectives from rather different women.
I agree too that the real value is in the perspective you're frightened of seeing and hearing about.
''Some people only want that, but some people want the truth no matter how much it hurts.''
I think it's fine when it actually is the truth: ''what you've done is damaging to this man's wife, their children, potentially your children, since you let them in on it. The best thing for you to do is extract yourself from this situation, as you will not be able to expect anything more from this man than what he is currently giving you.''
But I think it's unhelpful and potentially even dishonest to expand with long, vindictive posts describing how the relationship between this OW and the man was nothing, empty, meaningless, a sham, pure fantasy.
We don't know anything about the type of connection they may have had.
Their relationship has been going on for 10 years, and they appear to see each other very regularly. If it was an insubstantial shell of a fuck buddy type scenario, it would have run out of steam after year one, and the man would have moved on. I can perfectly see how a man or woman may be married, but in love with the person they are having an affair with, yet still not be prepared to leave their marriage. It may be that their marriage is comfortable and provides them with a sense of security and friendship. They may have moved on to a sort of platonic love towards their spouse. If on top of that you are starting to feel a bit older and starting to think about the days when you'll be old and frail and the importance of family, PLUS the person you are in love with and having an affair with lives ''a stone's throw away''... there really is no reason to leave. That doesn't mean he can't love the OP - as I said, I would assume if this has been going on for a decade, that he does.
It strikes me as unfair to all come crashing down on the OP and try to emotionally manipulate her into thinking she's been living a lie. She has been living a lie - her husband's lie to his wife, not to her.
Good point/s waddle , but I'm not sure we can compartmentalise like that? Their relationship was based on a lie - to whom is irrelevant. Can something good and true come from an unstable, faulty base? The fruits of this have been not good - more and more faulty adjustments were made to facilitate it. Or perhaps now I'm getting monochrome about it. Perhaps it is possible to 'love' two people at once. Though I can't help thinking that the fruits tell their tale.
It is a lie to herself though waddle - convincing herself she is content with that when really she isn't.
What a lot of very odd projecting, Bopeep. Who are you?
Math is correct when she says that [the emotions/experiences/life of] affairs are shallow. By their very nature they are shallow, come on! They are about fantasy, avoidance, hidden masked aggression, deceit, entitlement and narcissism. They are NOT healthy coping mechanisms.
Also, presumably to protect herself, OP talks with a lack of affect which people have commented on. I think she is being a lot braver than people give her credit for, which when she shows, you will notice MN giving her more slack.
And all the other points made to you.
Waddlecakes: "I can perfectly see how a man or woman may be married, but in love with the person they are having an affair with, yet still not be prepared to leave their marriage." And you think this is fine?
Your post is all them, them them.
What part of they are fucking other people over, they are maintaining a position of advantage over other people through deceit, are you not getting??? There is NOTHING fine about infidelity.
Let's see now:
in the world of employment, if a person is employed at a bank, but takes extra consultancy work at another bank (in the same area) on the side, what is that called?
I think you will find that it is called FRAUD, and that the defense 'well, I didn't want to lose your benefits, but I also wanted a bit extra on the side and you should be happy for me' - doesn't wash.
What about the world of the military? An officer also works for the Chinese, passing on his years of experience in submarines. Why not, he wants to do it! Maybe he was pissed off because he got passed over for promotion...
I think that is called TREASON and their little pity party doesn't wash.
If the 'real world' makes such a fuss about these little infractions, why do people think fucking women and children over is no big deal??????
Wellwobbly- Dunno what you mean about 'who are you'? You mean you want my real name?
Who are you?
Good post waddle.
I am not for one minute defending the OP or affairs per se. But I do think that it's inaccurate to call all of this living a lie. For a long time the OP was we assume hanging on in there hoping her OM would leave his wife for her. Hope is a powerful emotion. It keeps you going when your logical brain says otherwise. How do I know? Because I have close friends who have gone through this. I also have very close friends who have been cheated on. I have also known couples- my parents' generation- who had affairs that lasted 20+ years.
I think wobble your mistake it to reduce an 'affair' to just a fuck- which is how you seem to think of it by your last sentence or two. All the people I have known who had affairs would say the sex was the least important part- it was always about a whole lot more than that.
I don't condone affairs at all but I don't think it does any good getting into a state about it all on a forum and resorting to verbal abuse- the OP asked for support on how to end it, not for a character assassination.
''What part of they are fucking other people over, they are maintaining a position of advantage over other people through deceit, are you not getting??? There is NOTHING fine about infidelity.''
wobbly I never said it was fine. I said it didn't warrant spouting vindictive BS about how a woman's 10 year relationship, in or out of a marriage (because whether you like it or not, an affair is a relationship), was a lie and a sham. It hasn't been. It sounds as if it has been something quite deep and caring. And now the OW has slowly started to want a little more, and needed advice on how to end it.
Wellwobbly affairs are by there very nature cruel, but what muddies the waters and makes them less straight forward than a military man working for the other side is the fact they are all about human emotions. I don't doubt the OP loves the man in question very much.... possibly even more than his wife. His wife will have lived through the last ten years of her marriage with a distant emotionally unavailable man. If she doesn't already know about the affair, you can bet she has guessed. I am sure she lost the blind hopeful love we feel for our partners before we move in with them and have to live with their not so perfect habits. On the other hand OP only ever sees him on his best behaviour... it's like a continuous holiday romance. She is probably besotted.
I don't blame 'my' OW at all. I think she had a lack of empathy, and dubious morals, but the affair was not her fault. She was also very badly hurt by it. The person at fault is the person who is married, man or woman.
I am a MN member, who has lived through this particular emotional trauma, and I don't attack OW on here. I'm not alone, there are others. As with every internet forum some posters are more vociferous than others, and those with extreme views probably post more often.
'All the people I have known who had affairs would say the sex was the least important part- it was always about a whole lot more than that.'
Bopeep you are quite right. What does Shirley Glass call it? The positive image of the self shining back from the lover's eyes. My H said he liked her 'because she was nice to me'. ie, she never troubled his little mind with demands or challenges, only feelgood compliments and shallow chitchat. Unlike me the shrewish wife, who talked about bills and emotional upsets, poor little lamb.
Tbh? He and the OW are far more suited emotionally than we are! He doesn't like hearing this, but it is true.
But it still makes it false (this narcissistic supply). Because it is unreal and undeserved. Someone who is cheating, telling a cheat how wonderful they are? Two rather selfish people going on a mutual admiration trip? A fantasy life, the feelgood smoke blowing being worth crushing other people for? No. It is all wrong. Affairs are wrong and a huge mistake. it is interesting in counselling that both our ICs instantly dismissed the OW as irrelevant, or a symbol at best. OWs are also used! They are used in the avoidance of real issues.
I for one have never attacked the OP, disparaged her or called her names, I have only talked to her.
I actually have admired the considerable courage she has shown in acknowledging difficult stuff, and the huge moral courage she has shown to admit despite the barraking, that MN has made her start to think. I like courage.
Saying that the OP hasn't been living a lie is as illogical as saying she definitely has. No-one posting here (including her) knows the absolute truth of some of this and the only ones who do are the man- and to an extent his wife.
When there's no way of knowing the truth about a situation, the next best thing is to look at what the protagonists' actions suggest.
So it's unlikely that a 10 year relationship was motivated by sex alone, on either party's side. But as the OP herself has acknowledged, it's not real-life either, in the sense that that they've been able to have a normal, open relationship that comes from living with someone or spending nights, mornings and holidays together on a regular basis.
And when a man stays put in his marriage despite his children reaching adulthood and some of them leaving home- and when both he and his wife aren't financially dependent on one another, that means it's unlikely he's being honest about what's keeping him there.
And when a financially independent, bright and successful woman doesn't appear to suspect anything for 10 years, that suggests her husband's behaviour is giving her no cause for concern and they have a full, sexual and loving marriage just as much as alternative explanations such as she's a 'blind eyer' or is having extra relationships herself. None of what this man allegedly told his wife at any point has ever been corroborated by the OP.
When the OP reviews this relationship, it's best that she keeps an open mind on what are lies and what are truths. Only things she knows for definite and which have been corroborated can ever be described as 'truth'. The rest might be lies- or truth- but in the absence of a truth drug the next best thing is to look at the actions of the people involved and then come to a judgement.
Quite right, Leaven. I think OP has done quite a lot of self-questioning already. Yes, she might have protected herself somewhat, but I sense quite a lot of honesty there.
What are lies and what are truths? Why do people choose arm's-length liaisons (which is what the triangulation of an affair is - to REDUCE intimacy)?
If the OP is still out there, I hope she comes back and starts exploring this stuff?
Are you out there, OP? I don't think anyone should feel they cannot comment on a thread they started, especially if musing things out loud can help them clarify what it is they really feel, and really want to say.
Hey, OP! (Pharrel) Come over here!
I think burning bridges by telling his wife - maybe anonymously - is the only way due to addictive nature of your relationship.... Otherwise you won't leave.
That would change nothing. Either the wife wouldn't leave so husband could carry on or she would leave and the husband is then "free."
From the OP:
...it remains as passionate and intense today as it did on day one.
anything that a newlywed would be proud of
The physical side is as passionate as if we just met.
What does that sound like? It's not cosy, well-worn, slippers around the fireside. It's quite clear what is a central pin in this relationship - so less of the 'it's not about sex after 10 years'
Missbopeep -- "I do think your post, although with some truth and very valid points in it, is harsh because it simply projects your own beliefs.
You can't accuse someone of being shallow simply because their post is should we say 'articulate' ( maybe the OP is a writer- who knows.)
Neither can you say with any authority that her affair was insubstantial."
I'm just going by the words I quoted from the OP. People don't just pluck random words from the air when they post. The words they use reveal their feelings. If she wanted to say something about an affair that had real intimacy or love then I don't think she would have written something that reads like ad copy for a dishwasher from the 1950s 'a relationship that provides me with everything that a woman would relish except commitment! i.e love, companionship, support, fun and anything that a newlywed would be proud of.' A newlywed in 1958 would be proud of her nice dishwasher. A relationship is not the commodity it is described as in the OP.
She didn't want a fair trial. She wanted advice on grieving for the wasted years. Part of that may involve sucking up what others think of what she has been doing and acknowledging that she may have hurt other people.
However, no matter what your vantage point here, the OP shot herself in the foot in a major way by allowing herself to be strung along for ten years. I think it will be important to figure out what need was filled by this fundamentally unavailable man. Often when someone clings to a person who is not available they know this at some level but cling on because of fears - of abandonment (if you never really have him he can't abandon you), of loneliness (combined with willfully blind optimism), fear of commitment on the part of the stringed-along (who knows deep down this is going nowhere but meanwhile it is fun, 'everything a woman would relish', etc). Maybe ten years down the road the OP has noticed the crows' feet and the grey hair or two creeping in and reality has sunk in along with realisation of a deeper need than the needs she thought she was filling when she embarked on all the fun. She needs to apologise to herself for shortchanging herself all these years before she moves on.
Ten years is a big chunk out of her own DCs' lives when she was wrapped up in an insubstantial relationship that by her own admission her children were not involved in. They could have had a caring stepfather with a real presence in their lives, someone to enrich their childhoods. Of course she could have ended up with a jerk too, but that is neither here nor there. She devoted energy and passion to a man who had no intention of involving himself in her children's lives either. He was content to just take from their lives instead. It's possible he energised her and gave her something to look forward to that helped her to slog through the single mum week. However, so might a cocaine habit.
That is a lot of years in the (selfish, etc.) man's life when his children might have liked to have him available for trips or to hang out with but he chose to pay conjugal visits to the OP instead. Or maybe his wife might have liked to see more of him, to get DIY jobs done around the house. Or just to hang out in friendly fashion. But maybe all of that goes without saying and maybe that is a thought for another thread, but the OP needs to acknowledge what she took from children and from a woman who probably has a lot of unanswered questions about her relationship and now has to take care of her MIL for the foreseeable future.
Goodness math- do you feel better for getting all of that out?
It's a bit of a long lecture with a huge amount of conjecture going on- all in your head without any facts if I may say so!
So just a short one from me. I believe to the contrary- that sometimes the words people use are not accurate. I know people in RL who post on various forums on MN and they've confided how they become really annoyed ( off forum) because posters misread , misinterpret, and misunderstand their posts, and then they have to keep going back, saying 'I didn't mean that, I meant this.'
Unless someone is a professional writer, or spends hours pouring over every word they post ( which is highly unlikely in an emotional state) then it's questionable if their words are totally accurate.
wobbly maybe I've misinterpreted your last post but it reads as if you could just possibly be goading the OP to come back- so she can be kicked, or lectured again? I do hope not. I made the point to her that she had said she would leave the thread ( just like she has said she would leave this OM) so as a measure of her determination to each, she should show she means what she says.
People who post here are real people, with lives and real feelings. Sometimes these threads turn into a sport, with a real pack mentality, almost appearing to be a competition as who can be the most wounding, under the guise of being 'helpful' to the OP.
I agree with math that the OP presented a 2-dimensional picture in her OP and that it is a good description to say that the words she chose and the imagery she portrayed smacked of an ad campaign. We do like (need?) to tell ourselves stories. I genuinely think this is exactly the story she has told herself all along, which almost sounds like a Jilly Cooper novel. There is, imo, something curiously dated about it.
I can't help wondering if she strung it along for 10 years because she enjoyed being in charge (re not having him come to live with her when he had left his wife and was ill) and 'enjoyed' doing to someone else what had been done to her - re payback. It would be fair to say that OP has despised and blamed the wife. Which could point to whether the shock and trauma of being cheated on (and losing her marriage) has been properly addressed. It may be clumsy to say, but perhaps she despises and blames herself for her husban'ds adultery and abandonment of the family home - perhaps, even, for not being able to keep him? Jilly Cooper again.
From what I remember, the OP's kids were very much involved in the relationship OP was having with this MM. Which imo just goes to show how far out you can go when you are living and believing a constructed story.
There's an awful lot of mind-reading going on here and I can't see what it achieves, really.
The only people who know how they feel/felt are the people involved. Anything else is conjecture.
If the OP's first post read like an ad ( and that's a personal opinion- it's pretty subjective stuff) then I'd suggest it was because she was trying to convey how happy this relationship had made her for a while.
Her experience is not uncommon. I have had friends in her situation. I have not judged them and know that anything they wrote on a forum would not truly represent their circumstances.
There are numerous reasons why women- and men- hang on in what seem unsatisfactory or even 'immoral' ( to onlookers) circumstances. The simple facts are that they are getting more out of it- whatever that may be- than they would by ending it. But then the scales tip for some reason and they want out. As the OP found, this is hard, because almost all relationships- however flawed- involve emotional intimacy- especially after 10 years.
The OP IMO asked for help in breaking her attachment. I doubt she is still reading, and I am sure she won't post again, but I hope she manages to make a new life for herself.
Missbobeep. I agree with all your posts on this thread.
The person mindreading is YOU, Bopeep! Math is way, way wiser than you are.
1. you told math what she meant. Maths is a veteran of the trenches and she knows what she is talking about.
2. you told the OP that she was [some outlandish conclusion I can't be bothered to remember] because she said she was going and then she came back. Have you never removed yourself from a tense situation? This is OPs thread!
3. Now you are telling people they are projecting. Look in the mirror love.
4. Now you are an expert because you have 'friends!' If it is you, own it. If it really IS friends, that does not make you an expert.
5. Unless you yourself have been an OW or betrayed, in other words you have been part of the triangle, you are no expert. Do not presume to tell people who have lived in that triangle, what they know or do not know.
6. Do not tell me what I am doing or not doing. If you read carefully, I have never spoken to OP with anything other than courtesy which I am sure she would vouch for if she was still around. I am actually extremely interested in what she has to say and in her journey, so don't tell me what I think or feel.
'There are numerous reasons why women- and men- hang on in what seem unsatisfactory or even 'immoral' ( to onlookers) circumstances. The simple facts are that they are getting more out of it- whatever that may be- than they would by ending it.'
That makes it OK, then. 'I want, therefore I shall have'.
Terrifyingly narcissistic. But then, infidelity is a narcissistic act. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me. My need to feel good is WAY more important than anything else, stop getting hung up on deceit and betrayal, lighten up! Getting what I want is more important than hurting people. Role modelling that not even Daddy can be trusted, that life is hugely unsafe, to children -
You don't get it at all, Bopeep.
Hello, I hope I won't be slated for returning and it be an indication of my behaviour (ie. saying something she doesn't mean; a pattern of her behaviour etc), I have kept up with each post and words can't express how contacting this thread has affected me deeply.
It has and given me the insight to question my actions and behaviour. The thought provoking key words and issues that have arisen and been thrashed out - I have researched and learned of their definition. I've been blown away by the direction you have led me.
Collectively, you have managed to CORRECTLY describe my personality trait and why I have behaved without showing empathy and having no moral compass. I know without your knowledge and input, I would never have come to the conclusion I have, except of course, without the help of a counsellor.
The key words were:
Addictive nature and behaviours - defined by excessive repetitive use of pleasurable activity to cope with unmanageable, internal conflict, pressure and stress
(I enjoyed the immense support of the OM to help ease the stress of single parenthood and I relied on him emotionally; his support has been invaluable)
Compartmentlisation (I have known from a young age I have been able to use this coping mechanism) and described it as 'putting horrible and uncomfortable experiences in boxes' so that I would never have to return to them. Ultimately, it meant that I wasn't dealing with nor accepting of the situation (in my case, my divorce and childhood issues)
Aslo Defined as: may lead to hidden vulnerabilities in those who use it as a major defence mechanism.
*avoids moral responsibility and has double standards.
using denial or indifference to protect against any indications of contradictory evidence*
Being pragmatic and Self-Split affairs (a lengthy article but would definitely wipe out at least 2 visits to a Counsellor!)
The reason I preferred the OM to live in rented accommodation rather than my home (3yrs into the relationship), was because I knew I didn't have the strength to cope with the emotional trauma that leaving his family would bring. I wanted to protect my children from emotinal upheaval having withnessed the hurt my own divorce caused them. I was also afraid of the relationship breaking down and knew it would be easier to deal with if we weren't living under the same roof.
I have however, questioned many times, my lack of empathy having been through the same myself and always wondered why his wife never played any part in my choice to continue with the affair, knowing it was wrong.
I thought at the time it was because she worked long hours, had a hobby that took up many hours away from the family home, and subconsciously thought; if shes either at work or indulging in her hobby away from the family home, her marriage isn't something for me to waste time thinking about.
springytats, I really do not blame his wife whatsoever. I now accept the affair was brought upon through OMs actions and my acceptance of his reasoning behind it.
Only now, can I see, every excuse I made was twisted to enable us to continue the affair without feeling guilty i.e her absence from the family home, long hours at work.
I have also since Googled articles re addictive relationships and ours is definitely a prime example.
I have known of the above on a surface level, but never have I DEFINED their meanings. So, I thank you for your invaluable insight and setting me on the right path to what I hope will enable me to break free from this destructive relationship.
oh gosh, leaking here. OP, bless you. Well done, really well done.
wobbly I have only a couple of things to say to you- unless you have some kind of superior intelligence, and RL experience of math ( or me) you are not qualified to say who is wisest based on a few MN posts. What a daft comment to make.
Second, you'd do well to have a little self awareness as you come over here at least as rather 'know it all' and just a little bit snappy.
Pots and kettles, people who live in glass houses..... think on that.
Jesus gehj! Your response was a bigger shock than when Susan Boyle first opened her gob on BGT! I wish you all the best in your search for a new fulfilling honest relationship.
I do want to say however, that despite the words I choose (ad copy?), I used that metaphor because i thought it would enable me to keep first post short (no other meaning intended), that our relationship was not based purely on sex despite my description being its as intense today as the first day we met. After ten long years, I am only too aware of all his negative points, personality traits and I do not define him as perfect. I believe we have grown with each other and I viewed this relationship as nothing but meaningful, compassionate and loving. Of course, there were many times we argued about one thing or other, like any married couple and our relationship could NEVER be described as all sweetness and roses like has been suggested.
Despite the reasons being wrong why we were together, and the hurt we caused to others, and the excuses and lies we were a part of - it does not wipe out the last ten years and turn what we had into something shambolic.
It is only when one chooses to LEAVE the relationship, that then it can be viewed as being destructive and emotionally damaging to us both.
Bo, put a sock in it love.
OP. ah well, births are a struggle - you think it's coming, then it slips back. You have a lot to face and it stands to reason you will struggle to trash the whole thing. It's been 10 years, after all.
It sounds like you want to end it. So end it. If you wait to long you will be too old to find someone else (if you want to find someone else). Or keep it up but see other (single) men at the same time unless and until one of those others seems a good bet. In other words make it fairer - your current man is not exclusive to you and has his wife so just make it fair - you see others too and then see what happens.
I don't see why people should give bopeep a hard time. Her views are perfectly plausible too. And I don't believe there is any hierarchy of posters.
Well done OP - it must be painful to look 'the monster' in it's face, many people are not brave enough. Your courage is laudable. I wish you well on your journey to 'real' happiness.
Mixxy, your post made me so much. Thank you.
With three teenagers and one young adult, I'm up there with the best of the young Mums regarding music and aspirations. I'm not ready for the couch and slippers just yet 78bunion and you're never too old to find love.
Wahla, thank you for you kind words.
Despite the reasons being wrong why we were together, and the hurt we caused to others, and the excuses and lies we were a part of - it does not wipe out the last ten years and turn what we had into something shambolic.
It is only when one chooses to LEAVE the relationship, that then it can be viewed as being destructive and emotionally damaging to us both.
OP I agree with the first part of this, but not the 2nd.
What you had was never sustainable in its current form. It never is with affairs- either one party is found out, or someone decides they have had enough, or one party gives ultimatums.
Do you not think that the emotional damage and destructiveness of this was always there- it was just hiding? And now you are facing the end of it, you are aware of how much has been wasted- your emotional energy over 10 years? As you said, you were good at compartmentalising it all- something that men are often better at than women. Now you are being forced to see the bad- not just the good. And for 10 years it was mainly the 'good' you focused on.
I really advise you to see a counsellor - for one, they won't judge you or talk about the 'morality' of it - you'll have non-judgemental support so you can work through all your emotions- without the battering you have got here some of the time.
MissBopeep It is only when one chooses to LEAVE the relationship, that then it can be viewed as being destructive and emotionally damaging to us both
What I mean is: I couldn't SEE the damage nor think of it as anything other than Good until I withdrew from the relationship.
I.E during my marriage, I experienced a lot of unhappiness for one reason or another. It wasn't until I withdrew from my marriage that I was able to see where the problems lay. What I thought was my husband being a controlling grump is actually now classed as Emotional Abuse.
EA wasn't heard of so extensively as it is today. Women are becoming less accepting of their partners/husbands abusive behaviour as they were during the 60s. I have discussed this with many of my ''older' friends who have said 'That's just the way is was back then!'.
I begged my late Mother to leave my Father due to his Emotional and Physical abuse but she didn't have the strength to do so. As a result of my upbringing, I vowed no man would ever treat me that way. But.... I did allow my husband to be Emotionally abusive towards me during the four short years we were married because I actually didn't recognise it at the time!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing .
Oh Dear! I've rather revealed more than I ever planned to but I guess this is what's called 'Counselling by MN' and goes some way to explaining what I've learned about myself in the last 36hrs .
You've just had 10 years of it, too
aah- I see now. I did wonder at the time of posting if that was what you meant.
I'm not a counsellor, but I have several friends/colleagues connected with my work who are. We talk though not about clients of course. I also have a close friend- my best mate really- who has been on the receiving end of infidelity recently, and with a DH who is emotionally abusive, and is in counselling. One thing that has come out of this for her, is how the emotional and physical abuse her mum suffered, has left my friend as a 'people pleaser' and someone who , although incredibly strong in many ways, has been left with a certain amount of insecurity in relationships and a lack of self worth - partly due to living with a violent father, and witnessing her parents acrimonious divorce.
Given your background, I'd suggest again that you really do find a good counsellor because you too are repeating the cycle of emotional abuse ( with your ex) and appear to show some amount of a lack of self worth by staying in a long term affair.
It really would be worth exploring all of this with a professional.
*Wellwobby" thank you. I don't think I would have had the courage to return If I hadn't read your post.
I feel totally wrung out like a dish cloth and have 'thought of nothing else' these past few days, my head hurts and my children actually think their Mum is engaged in some on-line dating!!
OP, I really wish you well for the future, for you and your DC.
good Luck and I hope ou find happiness and that you can lay your demons to rest.
OP good luck.
Wobbly don't tell me to go away. I have as much right as anyone- including you- to add my comments. Do you honestly think you can bully me off the thread?
Get a life and stop spending so much time advising people on relationships- unless of course you have professional training which I very much doubt from your misjudged replies.
OP. I too was determined not to end up with a man like my father, who is a MCP who is EA to my mum. She only found the courage to stand up to him when we were teenagers and told her to carry on being a doormat if she wanted but we were going to stand up to him. ( me and DB)
Through counselling I have identified several issues that I have as a result of the way my dad treated my mum and us.
I am glad that wobblys advice has helped you. She does know what she is talking about... I think you realise now how destructive you have been to yourself out of self preservation. It's not easy but you can build a life for yourself and be free to meet a man who is free to be with you in a proper relationship that doesn't need to be a secret.
The thing I find hardest to comprehend about you is that you are a parent of 4, and a teacher?....you seem to have no grasp of setting am example/ moral guidance/integrity
'being suprised by your mutual attraction', and 'not
Boomba thank you for your late post. I have clearly identified I have some very serious issues to deal with via Counselling but I don't feel my profession or anyone elses for that matter has any bearing on whether they would/wouldn't engage in an affair. Of course my (all) children are of the utmost importance but whether I have one or four is of no consequence. I said I work in education and teach but to clarify, I am not a teacher.
Missbopeep -- So just a short one from me. I believe to the contrary- that sometimes the words people use are not accurate. I know people in RL who post on various forums on MN and they've confided how they become really annoyed ( off forum) because posters misread , misinterpret, and misunderstand their posts, and then they have to keep going back, saying 'I didn't mean that, I meant this.'
So in other words, you believe in reading between the lines? All anyone knows of anyone on MN is the precise words they use. Words are never random, and those people who say 'I didn't mean that, I meant this...' are often people who are deluding themselves over something, and of course it's not obvious to them but it is the thing that hits readers right between the eyes. If more than one person misreads, misinterprets or misunderstands someone's OP then I think the poster should put on her thinking cap.
Gehj -- I begged my late Mother to leave my Father due to his Emotional and Physical abuse but she didn't have the strength to do so. As a result of my upbringing, I vowed no man would ever treat me that way. But.... I did allow my husband to be Emotionally abusive towards me during the four short years we were married because I actually didn't recognise it at the time!
You have been abused by your BF for ten years too. He used you. It seems you have been conditioned well by your family of origin.
If you teach English then you would know that you didn't use a metaphor in your OP. Even if you don't teach English you would know that.
the excuses and lies we were a part of -
You should use the active voice when referring to excuses and lies. You weren't 'a part of' excuses and lies that were floating around in the air. What lies did you personally tell and what truth did you personally not tell? (and same for excuses). A relationship that involves lying and excusing really is a shambolic one. You need to accept your role in the lying and the excuse-making. It will hurt when you realise how much of a ride you were taken on and it will hurt when you start to explore why you allowed this, and you may not like the person you see in the mirror when you start working on this, but you need to do this and resolve never to be that person again.
You're not a leaf blowing in the wind here, helpless when faced with the question 'what is the right thing to do?' (not 'what is right for me here, and now?'). There is nothing in your upbringing or in your marriage that entitled you to do what you have done.
What your BF wants wrt leaving/moving is not relevant here. For your own emotional health you have to stop this relationship and go cold turkey. However you arrange this you really have to do it without regard for the wishes of profoundly selfish other people.
Your post of Thu 27-Jun-13 10:53:57 hints that you are aware that you are a moral actor and have elements of your decision making process to identify and remedy -- why I have behaved without showing empathy and having no moral compass
..but then your Thu 27-Jun-13 14:30:42 post seems to say that there may have been mitigating circumstances (the EA business and how you vowed never to let it happen again -- did you see yourself as entitled to the happiness this man dangled before you?)
The post of Thu 27-Jun-13 11:17:05 backtracks again and also restricts the destruction and emotional damage to the pair of you, without any mention of the fallout that others may have experienced. ^Despite the reasons being wrong why we were together, and the hurt we caused to others, and the excuses and lies we were a part of - it does not wipe out the last ten years and turn what we had into something shambolic.
It is only when one chooses to LEAVE the relationship, that then it can be viewed as being destructive and emotionally damaging to us both.^
I wonder if you are addicted to the drama of being caught up in impossible situations too? You can't move because of your children, and for some reason the wish of the BF that you not move is also playing a part in your inability to draw a line under it all in decisive fashion. Do you see yourself as some sort of a cork bobbing along in the tide, deep down? A tragic figure?
Wise, experienced Math - you're lovely, you are. [heart]
If OP can't really afford counselling, she will find a lot of help and support in the circle of - women who run with wolves!
We kick ass, but we support courage very much.
I think it's clear that you misunderstood my post.
When I said that people in RL who use this forum, say sometimes their posts are mis interpreted, I was NOT saying that I read between the lines. I don't know how you make that leap . I was in fact making the opposite point- that some posters read inaccurately, and assume things, ( 2+2 = 5) then OPs have to come back and add clarity... and so it goes on.... and on... and on.....
and the OP here made it clear she is not a teacher- which is maybe a good example of the above ( education=teacher= English teacher??- errrr no.)
Do you think you could be being a little pedantic about picking her up on the no-metaphor? I could have pointed that out ages back but felt it was not really a kind or helpful point to make.
I think it's a real shame that in this Relationship forum there is far too much bitchiness when someone doesn't like another poster's comments- and makes personal attacks.
I really do wonder if they'd react like this in real life, in conversation ? Or if the anonymity afforded here is to blame.
It's possible to have differing views without resorting to insults, and needing to be 'always right'.
I've drawn MNHQ attention to what I perceive as bullying here- I am game for arguing a point but I take a dim view of being asked to shut up and leave a thread just because someone thinks their opinion is the right one and mine isn't- when they have no bloody idea of my life, my experiences, my qualifications etc which I don't feel the need to reveal to justify my posts.
It's possible to have differing views without resorting to insults
then stop doing it, Bo. It is you who has introduced attacks and insults. Others are expressing their opinion, you have attacked.
Of course you have a right to your opinion, the same as everyone else here. But you are attacking posters - look back through your posts.
fwiw, I agree with that wise owl, math.
Wüst iean Os, yous habe a lot pd expwriemce AnE evidence....yous know this affair isnt ok for your Kids. But you have been doing it for 10 years.
You have disconnected from reality
As for counselling, some things are an essential, not an add-on. eg people go on hol, build a new extension, buy a good car etc., then say they 'can't afford' counselling. Ditch the extension, pay for your functional future. There's clearly a need here re the OP (speaking as one who has had years of therapy for similarly fucked-up
start in life).
'then stop doing it, Bo'.
Bo, I also made the mistake you are making when first coming to MN (if that is any comfort).
I got a good kicking, and learned that when I stopped intellectualising (telling people) and only spoke about my own experience that I owned, MN gets remarkably kind.
It was a learning curve I am very grateful for.
In education but not a teacher? I think you are a wanna-be writer, your posts are very calculated, though it's almost as though english isn't your first language... detached and unusal phrasing at times. All very odd.
We know that this is an emotive subject and upsetting for some of you but if you could bear our talk guidelines in mind before you post, that would be grand.
wow, still at it then!
ok some notes:
Bo you are getting scrappy and it is boring, stop it, disagreement is allowed - rabid terrier like attachment to percieved personal slights on an internet forum is a waste of time and decidedly unhealthy.
op is definately not a writer (seriously?!?) but seems to be making good use of cut and paste. One would hope that she intends to follow through this great enlightenment with serious ongoing professional help in rl and is not simply deciding that a mn thread can repair her warped view in the space of a week!
op do you know that mm is an abbreviation of Married Man? (not my man or anything else you think fits) - just wondered.
In case that all seems a bit mean (and forgive me for not embracing op's sudden epiphany wholeheartedly), I do hope that the op is beginning to recognise how much work she is going to have to do to improve her life and the influence she has on those around her. Despite what is discussed here the reality is that nc and/or full disclosure will end the affair but if the op wants a meaningful connection with herself and the rest of humanity in future then she is on the start line. Let's hope she has the stamina to stay the course. Good luck op.
Math I 'think' I mentioned (it feels a lifetime ago now) that this was my first time ever on a forum, that I've never contacted ANY site at all in my life so I was not truly aware of what is the norm when posting etc. Perhaps I should have read the helpful hints that I've since discovered before I posted. I have had to read up on the Acronyms more than once!!
I'm grateful for missbopeeps assistance in helping me explain i.e when posting I didn't think for one minute if I never clarified 'every' point, it would be misconstrued or misunderstood. I understand that now and how easy it is for the reader to make assumptions.
I don't wish to provoke posts relating to my profession or any profession for that matter. I don't think its relevant to the problem, except to say, it has been suggested on this thread that perhaps she is a writer, she is articulate she writes like an ad copy....
I didn't think for one minute I would be judged on my choice of words or if I made a grammatical error, someone would be so pedantic as to correct me on it. Thank you to those who didn't
I rather think your own choice of words needs to be addressed.
Words are never random, and those people who say 'I didn't mean that, I meant this...' are often people who are deluding themselves over something, and of course it's not obvious to them but it is the thing that hits readers right between the eyes
....deluding themselves.. I think your being extremely harsh as people who post, especially those for the first time like myself, may not be completely rational in their thoughts due to being distressed. (No, I didn't have feelings of distress when posting but certainly feelings of confusion).
But I digress....
Thank you confusedmuch FWIW, I'm not any of those things that have been suggested. I am an ordinary Joe Bloggs, who earns an average wage, who doesn't invite drama and leads, what I think, a fairly sedate life. In fact of all my friends, I'm the one with the least drama.
I think the importance of this thread is not the pedantics but the direction in which it led me to and that is what I will take with me.
Math* Do you see yourself as some sort of a cork bobbing along in the tide, deep down? A tragic figure?
If I thought the above and recognised the signs of EA, then surely I would have removed myself from the situation earlier??
Are you suggesting, intimating or making an opinion (choose whatever fits), that I KNEW I was in an EA relationship and enjoyed the drama?
If someone were to ask me what major upheavals I've experienced in my life - I would say two! My divorce and the loss of my cherished Mother. Does that indicate drama to you?
I have explained by reading articles and yes, defining words such as:
.... these explain clearly WHY I behaved like I have (it doesn't EXCUSE my behaviour). It explains WHY I had no 'moral compass' and yes, it mentions that people who are in addictive relationships live in their own bubble in exclusion to all others.
More importantly, these articles have said, that people in addictive relationships have low self-worth, lack self-esteem...
I have never for one moment at any time in my life, believed I was that person!
I have held down two very successful careers, enjoy excellent working and social relationships. I am able to speak to people at the drop of a hat or in new and unfamiliar circumstances. Does that sound like someone who would describe themselves as having low-self esteem?
Jeez, no wonder I'm confused and yes, I think we all agree on one thing for sure.... I definitely need counselling .
We're talking long-haul counselling here, not 6 or 8 weeks. Otherwise you'll learn a whole new set of mental skills - and you have proved you are proficient at those - and slot them into your database without denting your self-assurance one bit; probably the contrary.
You have had a taste of realising that things aren't the way you thought... please go with that uncomfortableness . You're on to something with it. To think you have life sewn up 1,2,3, everything in its place, is to be way off the mark. I could guess that your self-assurance is essentially brittle - but that is the job of a therapist to work with you and to create a safe place for you to explore what is going on with you. That takes time.
What you wrote in your OP, new or not, revealed very clearly who you were and where you were coming from, your priorities. There was no accident in the wording you chose; had nothing to do with you being a novice. If anything - and to contradict myself - your being a novice meant you hadn't learnt the skills to hide your true thoughts and feelings.
Gosh! Now I am more confused! I have always been a 'a spade is a spade' sort of person and very forthright in my thoughts but I hadn't actually realised that people might post anything other than what is TRUE!
I don't understand why people would seek for help and advice and not reveal their true thoughts and feelings as surely the masking of this will result in them not getting the right advice??
I think I should add being naive to my list .
Well let's say a cork bobbing along on a sea of delirious happiness? A man drifted into your life somehow and swept you along? With no hint of abuse whatsoever? What you described in your OP sounds (apart from ad copy) as if you feel you had won the relationship jackpot or some fairy godmother had waved a magic wand. Maybe not so much a tragic figure in the sense of having a bad end or having terrible things happen to you as one to whom things just happened (whether good or bad) while you were not actually very conscious of them, not seeing what was going on until afterwards, with your perceptions and feelings not front and centre? What I am getting at here is that you seem to be quite passive when in a relationship. A hostage to Luv?
You're doing a bit of backward reasoning wrt self esteem. 'If I have a career then I must have healthy self esteem' is not necessarily axiomatic.
I can relate to the black and white way of approaching life. I come from a disordered, dysfunctional, toxic home - and perhaps carving out sureties is a way of surviving that home life. Howeve,r we are adults now and no longer at the mercy of our primary caregivers. We can afford to relax rigid perceptions (and conclusions) and explore some of the complexities.
It's not so easy to relax rigid thinking, though, if your primary mental and emotional (and for some people, physical) survival depended on them. It's hard to unlearn. That's what therapy is for - to challenge things, expose/unearth things, explore complexities and agree that things aren't necessarily straightforward and there aren't necessarily solid conclusions.
As for what you wrote in your OP - it was a gift, tbf, as nothing was hidden. However, you were saying (and others too) that you hadn't meant precisely what you wrote, that there were possible nuances. I disagree and believe you wrote exactly what you meant.
depended on it, sorry. Not depended on them ie our survival depended on rigid thinking (to make sense of the world?)
What Springy means (I imagine) is that it's possible to be honest and truthful about your feelings and beliefs, while having some empathy for the people who are going to read your words. You didn't appear to use any filter in what you wrote. If you write on a forum where you know the readers may have experienced severe trauma because of the behaviour you are upholding, it's common sense to use discretion and tact in the messages you communicate.
Secondly, you need to become a bit more circumspect and worldly wise about using a forum where people can namechange and reinvent themselves. Posters don't always tell the truth about why they hold the views that they do and so their agenda is unclear. You can't compel people to tell the truth and it's everyone's right on this site to namechange- I've done it regularly, mainly because I like dipping in and out and I don't need to be recognised as a regular name. I do trust posters like Math and some other names who've been here for years, more than I do names that I don't recognise. Plus I really admire her posts and the intelligence and wisdom in them .
I've learnt over many years of being here and on other forums to keep an open mind about why posters are espousing certain views. Sometimes I recognise namechangers too because their posting style is so unmistakeable and that also helps to see the undisclosed agendas.
The internet and site savviness is easily overcome. The apparent inability to have empathy is something that's best addressed in counselling or with the help of a professional psychologist who is trained to diagnose personality disorders. I'm not altogether surprised that various posters have expressed concerns about disorders such as narcissism because of the views you've expressed and the way you've put those views across, but only a RL professional can diagnose and treat that.
Good points Leaven but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was disagreeing with posters (including the OP, I think) who say that people can post, use words/phrases, they don't quite mean. imo, what OP wrote was exactly where she was coming from on this. ie she was truthful and, in being, revealed precisely her position.
I'm not sure that introducing labels such as personality disorders or narcissism is helpful (despite OP crashing onto a site espousing beliefs, with all flags flying, that would have caused hurt and outrage). We are all 'personality disordered' or 'narcissistic' to a degree, and toxic primary conditioning can accentuate those characteristics imo. I am wary of introducing labels that may frighten someone in a fragile and exposed place.
eg OP's willingness to embrace difficult and challenging facts about her behaviour (and post about it at length) suggests she isn't, eg, a narcissist. Narcissists don't do that. (Ever.)
No I don't think there was any confusion about the words the OP chose to use either. I think she posted precisely what was in her head and meant what she said.
Personally, I don't see it as a problem to raise a concern about the possible existence of a condition that if diagnosed correctly, can be acknowledged and managed. I do have a problem with internet diagnosis, which is an entirely different thing. I believe that people should seek out help from the correct professionals and for some issues, counselling on its own won't achieve change or better mental health, because the issues are outside of the average counsellor's qualifications or expertise.
Case in point I guess. Only someone who's trained in the diagnosis, treatment and management of narcissism and whose qualifications and experience are verifiable can say: In my professional experience narcissists don't do that. (Ever)
The rest of us are just on the internet.
Can narcissism be 'managed'? I tend to think not - in my unprofessional opinion . Perhaps being intensively exposed to one - or many - over a long period of time gives me a t-shirt qualification. Plus extensive research about it. fwiw.
But, anyway, let's not get side-tracked.
Math Yes, you're right. I agree with your point that having a successful career does not mean one does not have low self-esteem. What about the other examples I gave?
Do you think someone can have low self-esteem if they 'feel' they are successful in all other walks of life i.e socially, work relationships, friendships, my family etc.
I don't want to lose momentum with what I've gained from your experience on this thread but using words such as axiomatic is not a word that I think most people would use or would understand.
I think it is very evident that I had no knowledge of how forums work or else I would have indeed not chosen 'to have crashed onto this site' and thrown myself to the wolves . I have had quite a few PMs expressing how courageous they think I am. I'm beginning to understand I haven't been courageous at all but bloodly naive!! .
I would be shocked and upset if I were to be diagnosed with having a narcississtic personal disorder (i truly believe I do not). I believe my posting on here with the facts as how I saw them was borne out of ignorance and not being aware of how my thoughts and feelings would upset others and for that I am truly apologetic.
Naive sounds benign whereas I think some people will have found your views hurtful and/or offensive. I can't see how it's 'courageous' to do that, but perhaps those messagers meant that word in a different context? It's courageous for example to be open to looking at parts of your personality you'd like to change and seeking help to do that, which latterly you appear to have done. It's not courageous though to blame this man's wife for something in which she had no involvement or choices. Worst still to blame female partners generally which is what you did.
Those views don't hurt me personally, but they offend me because they are so women-blaming and I'm a feminist.
I do have some scepticism therefore that it's naivety and in the context of choosing that kind of message on this forum, definitely don't think it's courageous. More a complete lack of empathy and sensitivity.
I've learned lots of marvellous words from forums and books. I never want people to stop using them because they challenge and stretch me. FWIW I don't think axiomatic is particularly unusual. It's a great word that concisely compresses about 10 others in a way that good vocabulary does.
No, OP isnt a narcissist. Agree w Springy's reasoning.
Phew, thanks Wellwobbly I'm really genuinely relieved to hear that. And I don't think for one moment being described as courageous was meant anything other than:
a. Not scuttling away with my tail between my legs when the earlier thread was potentially difficult for me to read and...
b. Knowing I have accepted that I need to make huge changes to my life and readily agree I need counselling.
I also see how my earlier posts make painful reading but even during this short time I have been on here, I already understand so much more and appreciate where the comments I have made have been hurtful.
I just want to stress I wasn't generalising all women blaming them when their partners/husbands have an affair. I was pertaining to MY situation. I most probably mean't she had to accept at least some responsibility in the breakdown of her relationship to her husband.
Maybe married women with young families can have it all but only if they have loving and supportive partners who are accepting of their careers and who are readily available to make changes in order for their marriage to succeed.
Maybe I ought to start a new thread: Can Women really have it all?
People are still pandering to the narcissist? I applaud your tenacity everyone!
Oh and I mean narcissist in the "wow she sounds like that greek bloke what drown himself because he thought he was so ace" way. Rather than being pulled apart for having a degree in the wrong kind of medicine.
Women rarely admit affairs and married women look askance on those who do. Conversely plenty of men show off to other men about their liaisons. It is a sexist world.
Given 30% of married people cheat it is likely that 30% of any holier than thous on the thread are at it anyway.
However I don't and I reject married men regularly. No one has to accept that first advance. I am not waiting for my reward from the married women's institute for rejecting married men, but I perhaps deserve one.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Christ alive,I see the armchair psychiatrists are scratching chin,using google
So from a bit of a messy relationship,to narcissism..Who'd have thunk it
One can tell all that from mn?next you'll be predicting cholesterol by reading posts
Oh gosh, I wasn't trying to do that. Like I said I didn't know what it meant, so I googled it and thoughti'd post something that I thought was interesting.
I'll ask MN to remove my post if that's how it's come across.
I have reported my post and asked for it to be removed.
ach it is open to debate scottishmummy but let's face it any person who shits on other people aint doing good and as for shitting on your own doorstep well that's just plain stupid imo.
By all means debate the ow,married man thang.thats the point
But speculating on her mental health,and using google as oracle is distasteful
I think it's unpleasant,and frankly you might as well diagnose gingivitis as narcissism.in both cases you'd be guessing
maybe op needs to realise that behaviour suggestive of a total lack of empathy for one's fellow human sends up flags in the rest of the populace that a sociopath/narcissist/personality disorder/shark is in their midst?
on ma 3rd glass and bowing out of this one vipers!
Oh gie it a rest go back to your Frasier box set.
Psychobabble is wanky
Ah! Can we please stop the intelectualising of what clearly had NO thought input whatsoever, barring who could get off first?
All this 'soul' searching is no going to give this bint some kind of justification for fucking someone else's husband, hauling her own kids into the midst and ranting on hear about how it was all the DW's fault for not treating her man right.
If OP has copped herself on, then all well and good, but stroking her overblown ego, pandering to her is not going to help her. Or those poor kids.
There is a DW in thé story here who has been cheated on for over 10 years.
Ok so he is the philandering slimeball but he can't betray his family alone now can he? And what better than with one that KNOWS full well what it feels like.
Takes a special kinda person to do that...
Stop feeding this creature. She is addicted to the drama, and all this thread is doing is replacing the hard-on she got with Mr ShagCoach
OP, I really do wish you well and didn't mean to offend with my post.
Don't worry mumat39, I'm not ready to slit my wrists yet
A rather distasteful joke on my part!
Would someone like to analyse that?
And on that note, I too am bowing out.
Can I ask why now.
What happened to trigger you to look at your life.
I thought that was a great post, Mumat39! I'm disappointed you got it deleted.
im(u)o I think the thread was just ambling along, changing direction, looking at different ideas. Nothing wrong with that, a lot right with it as far as I'm concerned.
Then the big guys came ambling into town, chewing baccy, slung a few shots and told every one they were damn stupid.
And y'all listened to them?? Don't listen, people! Just some big shot opinions, tis all.
Springy, that's just it, I was just learning and understanding things a bit more so posted what i thought was genuinely interesting but that meant the thread went of from its ambling course.
I am SO by Scottishmummys response as I really wasn't trying o suggest OP had any mental health issues.
Sorry for causing all this trouble.
oh blast it, put that post back in! Is it copied somewhere?
Please don't listen to scottishmummy barking like a ferocious dog at you. She does that all the time on MN, it's her style. Take na notice!
You're not causing 'all this trouble', don't be daft. The thread was doing nicely
imuo until the friday night crowd butted in.
The spaghetti western scene is good.
I feel like I just moseyed into town and everyone including the horses stopped and stared having realised that it's my face on the wanted poster. Wanted for being a thread killer!
Mumat asked for mnhq delete her posts
I think speculating on mental health,spouting terms in ta-dah thats why you is like that way
It's lazy o'er how can I try intellectualise and big up some online blah...aha guess the diagnosis
Okay, let's call her a drama lama then.
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