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Rebuilding trust, then this . .

(112 Posts)
Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 06:33:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bodiddly Fri 21-Jun-13 06:45:50

So sorry to hear he has let you down again. My first thought though was why on earth he didn't clear the history? Do you think he might want to get caught on some level?

doormat Fri 21-Jun-13 06:51:16

Couldnt he of done his searches in his workplace

Imho i think he wants you to find out what he is doing...his trail of evidence displays this

Either he wants to subconciously tell you that he still wants to carry on having affairs or whether or not you are still checking up on him....i reckon the first one in all honesty...

He will never change not matter how much he or you tries...

Down to you whether you can change you views or leave the bastard...

Hugs and flowers sent for a very stressful time for you ...bless you xxx

DuchessFanny Fri 21-Jun-13 06:54:54

No, married men don't normally search these sites ... Unless they want an extra marital affair that is ... I am SO sorry you are going through this, but I think you may be onto something when you say, 'he is bored of being good, and waited for the dust to settle' ... You are better than this, deserve more than this -- here to hand hold for the usual brilliant advice to follow, but i'm afraid i am of the LTB train of thought, how could you ever relax or trust him again ??

tribpot Fri 21-Jun-13 06:59:11

Surely you must accept that whilst 'married men' might surf these sites without it going any further, someone with your DH's history, who is supposed to be trying to mend his relationship, shouldn't be.

I'm surprised that you don't have a cast iron agreement that if he messes around again, you will LTB. When you say you've been working on rebuilding trust, has this involved him taking full and sole blame for his affairs? Do you have an agreement of complete honesty about the affairs and their aftermath? Can you just go and ask him what the browser history means, or are you afraid there's more to find that he will conceal if he is confronted too early?

Change2013 Fri 21-Jun-13 07:00:10

So sorry you are facing this. I am also of the opinion that it will continue based on my experience. I forgave and tried to move on, only to find ten years later that he had been lying about the extent of his affairs and had started a new one.

You deserve better (and that's what I keep telling myself too).

Chubfuddler Fri 21-Jun-13 07:04:06

It is simple I'm afraid. His actions show he deep down has no respect for you. In your own words he has been waiting for the dust to settle. You have gone through agonies to rebuild your marriage and he has gone through the motions.

Leave or live and die this way. He won't change. He doesn't want to.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 07:19:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chubfuddler Fri 21-Jun-13 07:23:25

It sounds like he is pushing at the boundaries to see what he can get away with (if discovered he provably would plead he was just looking and that doesn't count).

I'm really sorry op but the situation seems clear.

FlatCapAndAWhippet Fri 21-Jun-13 07:23:46

You can't rebuild trust with someone who shows absolutely no commitment to the cause.....

All this mans behaviour will do is eat away at you, I speak from experience. I left him four years ago, he still continues to behave in the way he always has, the difference being my dd (5 yo) and I are so far removed from it we couldn't care less. Happy days.

Good luck.

CityTiliDie Fri 21-Jun-13 07:27:51

Dont leave him.

Let him carry on with his affairs.

Let him risk his and your sexual health.

He wont change.

Show your DC how to have a 'proper' relationship.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. What really does keep you within this, is some emotional need of yours being met here?.

You've already told him that it was one more strike then you're out, time to follow through now. You may well have wanted to fix things but he clearly does not and wishes to continue as he has done to date.

I cannot see any reason for remaining with him now particularly if you do have children. They are learning from the two of you about relationships and both of you are currently teaching them damaging lessons.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 07:31:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 07:32:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

No, there can't be an innocent explanation here. He actively went looking for such sites, no-one forced him to do that. He chose to do that, he typed the words in.

No to going away with him tomorrow night either. Why prolong this agony for yourself?.

So what do you get out of this relationship now?.

It is not your fault that he is so very weak.

FennCara Fri 21-Jun-13 07:40:15

I've been in your position, here's what I wish I'd done:

Tell him to go. He wants to shag around? Go and do so.

Even if you feel you are essentially pushing him into open legs, you aren't. He'll do it anyway. All you are doing is proving to him that he will lose you if he behaves this way.

You condone it if you don't show him the consequences.

I know how hard it is, but talking, trusting, clinging doesn't help. He's shown you that. So sorry he's put you in this position.

newbiefrugalgal Fri 21-Jun-13 07:41:05

Sorry OP but he is obviously not committed like you to saving this marriage. I know you said it's complicated to just leave (and I personally do I understand this) but this is not normal behaviour.

You don't have to stay with him.
How many more things does he have to do. This is a strike to me.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 07:42:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 21-Jun-13 07:51:59

He didn't work on himself really did he?

Did he go to counselling?

Did he do any reading e.g Shirley Glass, Linda McDonald, Frank Pittman etc?

Did he explore his own issues, beliefs, coping mechanisms and traits to address what made him justify cheating in this way?

Basically what happened is that he got caught, said sorry, and then waited until the dust settled before cheating again.

FlatCapAndAWhippet Fri 21-Jun-13 07:56:15

You would feel so much relief to free yourself from this situation. I also felt very strongly that I would not allow my little girl to grow up with this surrounding her.

Oh and just to add, he isn't wonderful, wonderful people don't behave like this.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 08:03:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chubfuddler Fri 21-Jun-13 08:14:35

It's not you, it's him. Why? Because he can. You wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do it, but we could. Anyone could find the opportunity to chest if they wanted to. He does want to so he did.

AThingInYourLife Fri 21-Jun-13 08:16:41

Why not go and find someone new and exciting yourself to have sex with?

You might as well enjoy being in a non-monogamous marriage.

Xales Fri 21-Jun-13 08:32:40

OK so you don't want to be told to LTB.

In that case go and get a full spectrum of the STI checks to makes sure that his affair and multiple ONSs have not already infected you.

Don't have sex with him again without a condom ever. If you have any sort of sexual contact oral etc make sure you are checked over every 3 to 6 months just in case?

Ask him not to bother telling you about his working day, what he has done, where he has been, what time he will be home. Its the only way you will know he isn't lying to you.

Accept that he may in his way love you but he doesn't give a shit about your personal or mental well being.

Don't bother going away to celebrate your marriage. What's the point?

Become more miserable, stressed and I'll and finally he will leave you for one of the women he shags as every ounce of joy and happiness has been sucked out of you.

NicholasTeakozy Fri 21-Jun-13 08:48:14

Why? Have I been too forgiving? Too reasonable? Why?

As Chub said, because he can. You keep on letting him 'get away with it'. He isn't going to change so either suck it up or kick him out.

That sounds harsh, I know, but better to get rid than to have a lifetime of heartache. All the best.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 21-Jun-13 08:48:52

Yes, he went to counselling and seemed to have made insights and changes. I am so utterly devastated and disappointed.

I can imagine how devastated you must besad

Not all cheaters can change - habits, traits and beliefs can be so well ingrained that making long lasting changes is very hard. The only thing that could motivate them is loss - and this is what some posters mean about him not feeling the consequences.

Please remember this is all about HIM, his selfishness and his coping mechanisms.

onefewernow Fri 21-Jun-13 09:16:06

I would say you weren't too forgiving the first time.

If you forgive again you would be.

It shows he hasn't changed, whether he had dtd or not. People don't do actual location searches without intentions.

If he can blah his way out of this one it will just show him you are a pushover.

I would say I am the queen of forgiveness ( forgave 5 years of infidelity), but this would be too much for me.

I am interested in what work you have done on yourself since his last affair? It seems to me that if you won't leave him the best you can do is spend any counselling money on yourself to address why you won't leave him.

I'm sure you know by now that he can't be cured or controlled out of this mindset by anyone else, you included.

He would have to want to change for himself, and he clearly doesn't.

Cabrinha Fri 21-Jun-13 09:34:11

I'm sorry - what an arsehole.
There isn't an innocent explanation.
I've been through this (the finding out, the staying, the finding out again...) also got told he only contacted ("just looking" - they do think we're stupid) never actually met. Bullshit. (within a week of me ending it he was now not bothered enough to leave proof of that where I found it - was less careful with deleting mails / texts).

When I ended it he tried the "just looking" bit and I said "but you know that in itself is enough for me to end it?"

Bear that in mind... It's OK for you to end it even if it was only him looking, which it wasn't - he has gone through with it, or was looking with intent. You do know that. I'm sorry to be blunt.

I stayed for years... ended up miserable in a sexless marriage where every little day to day issue made me disproportionately angry because I had such a base level of anger and contempt towards him.

Do you want herpes? Chlamydia? Ghonnorhea? Worse?
I stopped sleeping with my H, because I didn't.
And why would I even kiss him when I knew what he thought of me?

One of the big reasons I left, that had me in tears more than anything, was knowing my daughter was growing up learning that people in "loving" relationships don't kiss, touch, spend time together.

I can't wait for the day when she sees me kiss my boyfriend. I want to model happy, respectful and physically affectionate relationships for her.

There's a better life for you out there than living with this disrespect, there really is.

lemonstartree Fri 21-Jun-13 10:22:04

I am so sorry he has done this.

If it were me, no matter how complex, no matter how much I loved him I would have to leave, because I could never get over the anger . I might want to , I might tell myself I could/had. But inside I would never ever trust him again and I would know he had zero respect for me, zero concern for the pain, heartache and despair I had already been through. I would know that me, my feelings, meant less to him than looking at websites and searching for more sex with other womes.

Think about it. Did he HAVE to do this ? No, he chose to. Knowing what you have been through, knowing what you have forgiven, he chose to 'look' ( and search) again. What does that say about how he really feels ? he does not believe you will break up the marriage and he doesn't REALLY deep down care about you at all. Because his need to search for married women to have sex with is more important than your heartache.

What a cunt.

I would be SO SO SO angry that I wouldn't want to ever see his cheating lying smug face again. He has destroyed everything you worked for because he is selfish and entitled and cares only about himself.

NONE of this is your fault. please never question yourself bout this. All marriages have ups and downs but decent people do not do this to their partner. You have probably 'normalized' it to some extent " Its only looking" but THINK... If you have deeply hurt your husband , would you do the same things again ????? No. because you would not want HIM to be hurt. He does this because he cares NOTHING for your feelings. They are not as important as his need to search for sex.

I wish you all the best, but please value yourself and get rid. Someone as selfish as this cannot and will not change

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 21-Jun-13 10:22:32

'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me'.

There's a massive difference between wanting to forgive and sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la'. Doing nothing and hoping it'll all go away will only make you more upset, more suspicious, more anxious.... more powerless to stop it happening again.

AgathaF Fri 21-Jun-13 11:22:08

I made it absolutely crystal clear that one more strike and he's out. You might have said the words but you didn't mean them. He knows that.

He will not change. He doesn't need to change. You have to decide if you can live a life where you know he shags around, or if you want a better life for yourself. If you want better, your only option is to separate.

ladyjadie Fri 21-Jun-13 11:51:40

You will only make yourself seriously ill if you stay now imo. It will eat away at you no matter what excuses he comes up with. You don't deserve that, nobody does. You desperately want him to change, but he hasn't, despite his efforts. I'm so sorry you have had to go through this, but you do have a way to be happy. It just has to be without him.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 13:31:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 21-Jun-13 13:34:14

Better to be alone with your self-respect intact than to share your life with someone who doesn't even respect you enough to be honest....

AThingInYourLife Fri 21-Jun-13 13:38:24

Don't bother confronting him.

That just creates a debate where he can plead his pathetic case and try to talk you into making yourself miserable overlooking how badly he treats you.

Just tell him what you know and what that means for your marriage, and ask him to go.

Ideally have someone with you as moral support and to act as a buffer against him trying to have it out.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 13:40:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chubfuddler Fri 21-Jun-13 13:49:25

What AThing said. It's not a discussion. If you have decided its over then his opinion isn't really relevant.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 21-Jun-13 13:59:25

I am not the best with words, and I agree with everything everyone else has said.

If I were you, I'd start getting angry instead of sad. You say he respects you... How can you believe that when he'd risk giving you/someone else a disease, risk getting another woman pregnant - And then what? You'd be even more crushed, but could you respect him for abandoning his child? -

He has no respect for you and thinks you're a doormat. That's what would hurt me the most and that's what would ENRAGE me the most.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 14:04:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bigstrongmama Fri 21-Jun-13 14:13:21

There is no healthy way to 'process and deal with this' while you are still in a relationship with him. I know you don't want to hear LTB, but you know it is the only sane response.

Don't listen to his excuses for this, there is no valid excuse, just bullshit.

The kids will be sad, but much better to go through dad leaving now than have years of misery due to an illusion of family life. I am newly separated, it is very hard, but I know ultimately long-term it is best for me and my children. Can you go back to your counsellor for some support? It seems the responsibility of deciding whether the relationship continues is down to you - it's not your fault though. Your husband clearly doesn't want it to continue, since actions speak louder than words.

Can you decide how you want to proceed and then tell him, rather than giving him a chance to excuse himself?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 21-Jun-13 14:27:09

If you have a DD, you will be showing her the sort of respect she deserves in a relationship. If you have a DS, you will be showing him to respect women and how his father's 'habit' is disgusting, offensive, cruel and dangerous to the health of the person he 'loves.'

Of course same for DD, but since he is the cheat and often children model relationships after their parents, I hope you know what I mean.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 14:27:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 21-Jun-13 14:34:26

The 'having cake and eating it' issue, you mean? That's what a lot of sleazy men want... yes. Do you want to be with a sleazy man?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 21-Jun-13 14:35:47

No, he wants the good life. Wife, kids, nice home, warm food, stability, love.

He also wants to shag who he feels like. Nothing to do with you because you're just 'part of the family package.' He's proved he wants a docile little wifey who takes care of him but he doesn't have to respect by what he just did. He hasn't and won't ever change.

As another poster said, he parroted the right words and waited for the dust to settle. That's just so... Cold. He knew how devastated you were, just how dark your days were and what did he do? He bided his time so he could do it again.

That's just... So cold.

BananaRaces Fri 21-Jun-13 14:40:30

If he does want the relationship to continue he's got a funny way of showing it - if you made it clear that you would split up if there was any more betrayal. When he was searching for someone to hook up with, he knew it would upset you, knew it might mean the end of your relationship...and yet he did it anyway. That is how little respect he has for your feelings. I know that sounds harsh, but I think it's the truth.
I would be packing my bags if it were me...I know we are all different but please think carefully before staying in a relationship with someone who has so little respect for your feelings.

Hopasholic Fri 21-Jun-13 15:12:12

Athinginyourlife has posted my thoughts exactly but I AM going to reiterate as I can tell you're way off accepting that it's over.

There is no discussion. Don't get into one, just tell him to go.

Living like this for the rest of your life is NOT worth it. You've given him how many chances? Your OP states 'affair and ONS's < plural

It is however your choice entirely of course BUT even if you do make the decision to have him back yet again ( hope you don't but it's your life after all) you have to make him leave tonight in order to get some breathing space and time to grieve. It will send him a very clear message as he clearly has so little respect for you and you can't see the woods for the trees. Hopefully the time on your own will make you realise you deserve much much better.

You absolutely WILL get over this. He won't change. flowers

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 16:01:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tessa6 Fri 21-Jun-13 16:18:08

You poor poor thing. Don't worr, you're not alone, I promise. You need to break it down and stop thinking about the rest of life or massive huge things. Let's just deal with what happens now.

Think about what a vulnerable place you are in. You know I think what he will probably say. You are also probably afraid he will be able to persuade you. "I haven't DONE anything...!' etc etc.

You need to get through the conversation with a very solid idea of what is and is not acceptable to you. You have TOLD him that one more strike and he's out. You have indisputable evidence that he was CONSIDERING extra-marital sex and not theoretically, the location search proves that.

Only you know, without him in the room, what that means. It means he is, deep down, a philanderer. A bit of a player. A sleazy guy who, despite having put his wife through what he has is not satisfied to commit to a world of fidelity.

Be strong in this, because when you confront him you are going to feel rocked. He is, as most cheaters do, going to get angry with you, or teary with you, and try and manipulate or punish you for having found him out. This is an ordinary, if disgusting reaction.

I cannot live a life with someone who I know is like this. Say that over and over because and until it is a fact. Whatever argument he has will not be able to overpower that if it is true. He is considering it. Around his WORK place too. Far away from you.

Everything else can be dealt with step by step. Can you search for other evidence that will support you further? Is it possible he has acted out on this search and bank statements or phone bills might support that?

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 16:28:37

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bigstrongmama Fri 21-Jun-13 16:43:12

Intent is definitely enough. You can't trust him. I would stick to that as your main argument, if he is bamboozling you with the details and excuses. You can't trust him, and trust is the foundation of a good relationship. He is not going to agree with you that it is over, you need to stay firm.

lemonstartree Fri 21-Jun-13 16:43:20

yes, I'm sorry but I believe the search implied intent.

He will say 'But I haven't DONE anything, I was just looking'

how will you respond to that ? I would come and sit with you later if I was close. Are you sure you dont have a RL friend/relative hwo will help you?

My ExH was a drug addict. he splintered our family. betrayed me and trashed my trust. I gave him another chance. And you guessed it he did it again. Actually that time it was easier. I knew he could never be the husband and father we deserved. I divorced him and I have not looked back. The 2 years between the first and second betrayal were , in retrospect, a waste of time. he has lost my respect completely the first time and I never really forgave him. I was SO angry that I was pushed into a position I had no wish to be in (single parent) through no fault of my own. Just because of his selfishness and entitlement

If you cannot forgive this ( and I see no reason on earth why would would even try) its over - make the break cleanly and decisively. Its bloody hard, but easier than destroying yourself trying to forgive the unforgivable

big hugs, You will be ok x

tessa6 Fri 21-Jun-13 16:45:27

The intent is that he went to a website (didn't search for it, right? knew the website address? Went straight there as it were?) This means he has visited it before. And possible even USED it before. This is fact. So it's not a weird, one time, curiosity thing. These are REAL women. Not porn stars or celeb crushes but people claiming they are up for no strings, secret sex.

Dont' worry, we're here with you.

He specified an age range and a location, a real one, not a random one, near his work place, as safe and unlikely to get caught as possible (i.e not where he WAS at the house, or a random selection of letters just to see).

If you get into asking specific questions (have you ever used this site? have you ever paid for sex? etc etc) he is going to answer no. Expect this. Our instinct is to build up to the questions as if that's the scary bit and we don't know what will come back at us. Bollocks. We do know. He's going to say no. So be prepared for that. That DOESN'T make it true.

Stick to what you know. you know he is famliar with this website (I think) you KNOW he has been considering getting extra marital sex elsewhere without you knowing about it, DESPITE everything you have put up with and you have both been through. THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.

He will try and make you see that because he hasn't DONE anything (strike that, because you can't PROVE he's done anything) then your sorrow or anger is unjustified. This is because he is feeling guilty and wants to downplay it all. You need to say, over and over, that the type of man who after everything he put you through, would use a site like that with the intention he had, is not someone you can be marries to. This is not unreasonable. This is not 'hysterical'. It is logical and sensible. These are the facts.

Don't get me wrong, I think you should ask him the other questions, but it's unlikely he'll be fully honest with you. Just don't let that destabilise you.

Keep returning to your point. And keep your eyes open for other things.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 16:50:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 16:53:33

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themaltesecat Fri 21-Jun-13 17:03:57

You'll get through this. flowers

Distrustinggirlnow Fri 21-Jun-13 17:11:28

I'm so sorry to read this OP. I have had a similar experience to you up until the last bit. I'm trying to put myself in your position. (Sigh) ........
I would be so gutted, let down and then angry I think. I would also check his emails and see if there were any in there that were dubious. I'd probably search the site and see if he had an ad on there too. Or see if I could log on as him. I'd want as much evidence info as poss for when I spoke to him, to make it less easier for him to wriggle out of.

You've been here before so you know exactly how he will react. How he will minimise then rush to delete everything.

If there are any emails, forward them to yourself.

There is a way you can search on the iPad to see if he's sent emails or messages then deleted them. There's also a lesser known way to check the history. You prob know all this but if I can help, let me know. You will need to be prepared for the worst tho.

The fact that he's looked may be enough for you to say, do you know what, I can't do this any more. That's me done now and walk away.

I can't believe that after he's tried so hard that he'd throw it all away. I'm so sorry. Here's a brew

He has to go, or this is your life from now on. You deserve better and so do your DC.

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 17:48:14

I totally agree with tessa

I am so sorry, love

Surely this is game over no more discussion to be had

You said "one more strike"

You have to follow through, or this will be your life for the rest of your marriage

does that seem appealing ?

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 17:49:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 17:50:18

In his eyes he isn't "throwing it all away"

this is what he wants, this is what he thinks he is entitled to

he will lie and minimise all of it

he will accuse you of "throwing it all away" but you wouldn't be

deep down, you know the truth

listen to your inner voice, it won't let you down

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 17:51:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tessa6 Fri 21-Jun-13 17:59:31

If he gets angry with you, bad sign. If he storms out, bad sign. If he tries to change the subject, bad sign. Your gut will be on the money most of the time, but don't trust what you 'want' to be true, only what you feel to be true.

The most important answer will be to 'why' he did that search. A mature, sorrowful, self-questioning man will have to look deep down inside himself and come up with a grubby but honest answer. If he tries to brush it off, calls it curiosity and won't explain, or says it was just a stupid fantasy, bad sign. If he says it was just a stupid fantasy that still doesn't explain WHY. It's real, not porn.

After what's he done you are well within your rights to be checking things. Don't forget you will have had a reason for doing that. After so long not checking up on him, why did you? Was your gut telling you something?

The best way to be is as calm as possible but iron-willed. Some people would start with 'Is there anything you want to tell me? I want to talk to you about something difficult and painful and I was wondering if you wanted to raise something yourself first.'

The calmer you are the more control you have, but there's no reason you should punish yourself is you get upset or angry. He has upset and angered you.

Chubfuddler Fri 21-Jun-13 18:00:14

When his lips are moving

Distrustinggirlnow Fri 21-Jun-13 18:02:00

Yes OP that's it re safari etc...

And the way you know if he's lying, is because you know the truth....

Stick to facts. I know you've been on marital affairs website. Can u tell me why that is a good idea.

Then be absolutely silent. There will be silence. Do not fill it..

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 18:02:44

how do you tell he is lying ?

his mouth is moving

Sorry, that might have been a bit lighthearted for you right now. But he is a liar. You know he is a liar. Nothing appears to have changed, so why would he now tell the truth?

And what do you think his "truth" will be ?

he was "just looking" seems to be the minimum he could attempt to get away with

is that acceptable to you, in view of the history here ?

ktef Fri 21-Jun-13 18:02:56

You have said a few times that you l

Badvoc Fri 21-Jun-13 18:08:10

Exactly what level of disrespect and betrayal is game over for you op?
Exactly how much more are you prepared to take? And for your dc to take?
Have you had an sti check?

ktef Fri 21-Jun-13 18:12:20

Sorry, stupid phone. You have said you love him. But once you accept that this is th real him do you still feel that? He is someone who thinks he loves his wife but for whom that is not enough. He is someone who likes having sex on the side while have family life with you. He is someone who likes doing that even though he knows how his wife deals about it. He is someone who will go to another room to look up women's details. Do you really love that man? Because whether he looked with intent or not doesn't change who he is. YOU are free to decide whether you want to stay with this man or not. I think his time of explaining, crying, denying, minimising etc is passed. What matters now is what you decide about how you feel about the real him.
Best wishes, I feel sure there is a better life out there for you.

Wellwobbly Fri 21-Jun-13 18:13:21

Dear OP, after 4 years of complete going nowhere, I discovered that my remorseful, really working on himself H was back in touch with Miss Shiny. Which act finally set me free, and realising that I am worth so much more than this. Have you found a wonderful site called Chumplady?

Dear Chump Lady,

Please help me to decode this.

I have been in a relationship with my partner for 2.5 years. When we met, he told me he was divorced. I queried as to why, and he advised that he and his wife had married young. (He was 27) and that they had simply grown apart in the two years that they had been together. I had recently been engaged prior and my ex had run off without any warning so I simply thought “hey I’m sure that could happen” and we started a relationship.

He was hilarious, good looking and absolutely adored me from the get go. I still felt unsettled about his past, as I am a firm believer that you need to understand why your relationships end so you can move forward, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt as overall he was a top guy, and myself as well as everyone else loved him.

About six months into our relationship, he left his facebook open and I saw that there were a series of email messages between him and another woman from back when he was married. They were discussing how good the sex was between them and how they missed each other. I confronted him with the fact he had an affair and he stumbled and said “it was never physical.” Well bullshit, I told him I had read it and he better come clean. He confessed to a three-month affair during his marriage. Said it was the worst mistake of his life, he had lost everything over it and he would never forget it.

I struggled with it, didn’t know whether to break up with him over it. But again, he was such a great guy! Surely when you lose your marriage over an affair you learn your lesson right? WRONG.

I actually apologized to him for judging him on his past and who was I to judge someone, as they were no longer in that place in their life? Chumpy isn’t it?

Six months later, I saw an email pop up on his iPad, it was from ‘melanielovesadam@…’. This woman had just had a child and had sent him a text with a picture of a new born son with the text message ‘my new toy boy’ xoxoxo. (Vomit)

I confronted him, and he denied anything until it basically became painfully obvious that he was lying through his teeth. I made him open the account and checked the trash. There were hundreds of messages between the two of them, telling each other that they missed each other, they loved each other, and hey wasn’t the sex exactly 9 months before the birth of the new born son amazing? I deduced that had slept with each other after we had become official (only once of course) and it turns out that the affair started six months after he had married his ex and had continued in either an emotional and/or physical fashion ever since. So technically they had been involved for over four years in one shape or another!

As you can imagine, I went ballistic and ran from the house. From that minute he was all remorse. He apologized to my family, his friends, my friends. He enrolled in counselling, he read books like “Not Just Friends”, he went to church, cut off all contact with her and basically handled any trigger or emotion from me by telling me it was not my fault, he loved me and he would do anything to spend his life making it up to me. I started to feel safe again. Sounds like successful reconciliation right? WRONG.

Thirteen months into recovery, he takes me shopping for engagement rings, I am a bit wary, I share my concerns, but we now have a stronger relationship as we can talk about anything and I feel like he really gets me. I ask him if she ever tried to make contact again, he tells me that she never has and if she did I would be the first to know about it. We proceed forward, he lodges annulment papers so that we can marry in the Catholic church, he plans to ask my father for my hand on our next family holiday.

Last week I found a picture he took of his penis and sent to the other woman, turns out she called him about five months ago, he picked up the phone and they just “started talking again’” then oops I accidentally sent a picture of my penis to her???

WTF, why go through all the counseling, all the grovelling, the apologies to family and friends and then do this? He said it was never going to get physical at all and he “never meant to intentionally hurt me.”

I just don’t get it?!!! Now he is grovelling again, telling me I am his world and he will fight to earn my trust and the right to love me again. I feel like I am in an episode of the Bold and the Beautiful.

WTF is going on with my perfect, lying, cheating POS boyfriend? People are saying, maybe it’s not so bad, as he didn’t sleep with her, but WTF??!! What is with this mind bend, a perfect, warm beautiful man, who likes to send pictures of his penis to a married other woman with a child?

Please help.

Melissa

Dear Melissa,

Gee, and I wonder why I’m skeptical about cheater “remorse.” Okay, first things first — this is his child with her, right? I’m sure he denies it (if you asked. Did you even go there?) Melissa, I think you need to brace yourself for the idea that he NEVER ended it with her and he has another life with her and their child.

Look, people don’t enthuse about the great sex they had before they conceived, and send a picture of a newborn to a guy who is NOT the father. That doesn’t happen, Melissa.

What you have on your hands here, Melissa, IMO is a sociopath. Yeah, they’re really sparkly. And yeah, they fake remorse really, really well. (If they want something. But if they take you for a dry well of kibbles, they show no emotion whatsoever. Gig is up.) This is all a big game to him — how much cake he can stuff in his gob. You, her, and god knows who else that’s privy to his penis pictures. The guy who cheats on his wife, gets another woman pregnant, disavows his responsibilities, and sexts his junk — this is who that man REALLY is. The sparkly hologram who read “Not Just Friends”? That guy is a con artist.

You’re catnip to a guy like him, because you were vulnerable when you met him. You had another idiot who just waltzed off and ended an engagement. (Hugely shitty, but at least he didn’t fuck with your emotions and pretend like this POS.) That means, when your boyfriend went all full sparkles on you, and made noises about commitment, you were IN. Failure is not an option! I get it. Mine targeted single mothers. Same dynamic. They want the try harder chump. The person whose got a deep, vested interest in making this work. You don’t want to connect the dots about who he really is because then you think if you do that, you have to connect them for yourself. I’m not worthy. No one will ever love me. This is what people do, they abandon me. What’s wrong with me?

Nothing is wrong with you, except you need to work a bit on your picker. Totally curable condition. Unlike Mr. Sparkles there, who is a disordered freak and will always, always, always no matter how weak his knees get from groveling, be a disordered freak.

Why does he do this? I don’t know. Why did Mengele conduct experiments on children? Why does Jody Arias think her ugly haircut will prove her innocence? You want me to get inside the mind of a sociopath? I leave that to the professionals. (Try the Dr. Simon books up there in the Amazon box and Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That”?) There is no understanding them — there is only getting AWAY from them.

You have more than enough information to understand that this man is toxic and dangerous to your well-being. You need to go total no contact with him forever. It’s a blessing that you learned these things before you married him. You’ve escaped. I know it hurts, but I promise you don’t have the sunk costs that a lot of chumps here have.

Please resist the urge to figure him out. That’s wasted energy. We call that “untangling the skein of fuckupedness” here. Work on you. Grieve who you thought he was and what you thought your future would be with him. Be kind to yourself. Good people absolutely exist and they are out there when you’re ready for them. You were right to trust your instincts and you were totally right to end it. You’re off to a great start in getting over this. I’m sorry he wasted several years of your life, but you will learn a ton of good about yourself that you can take forward. (((Big hugs)))

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:13:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ktef Fri 21-Jun-13 18:14:17

So many typos. Sorry, hope you get the gist. X

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:18:23

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AgathaF Fri 21-Jun-13 18:18:48

Strength to you for tonight. You know the truth. You know what you will accept. If the two don't match, so be it. I'm sure he can find somewhere to stay for tonight, whilst he considers what an absolute dick he has been.

You deserve better than this.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:20:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blondie1969 Fri 21-Jun-13 18:23:05

from a male perspective i would say to original poster get out now and not waste any more time or energy who someone is not treating you with any respect whatsoever.

If you stay together you will always have trust issues or doubts.

I cannot think of a single genuine excuse why he would be on those sites.

Wishing you all the luck. Advice earlier on is let him do the talking and fill in the gaps.

You are right "enough is enough"

Badvoc Fri 21-Jun-13 18:24:30

Yes.
Enough is enough.
Move on.
You and your kids deserve better.

GirlWiththeLionHeart Fri 21-Jun-13 18:30:43

This man will never change. Ever.

The fact he was looking at an affair website on your wedding anniversay is so fucking ironic it's sad.

As they say, actions speak louder than words; he told you he would never do it again, spoke a good game but look at his actions: porn and affair hook up sites.

You deserve so much better. Please don't waste another second on this guy.

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 18:30:49

It's up to you, love

We can't protect you from yourself, I am afraid

Over to you (not him, that is the key)

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:32:12

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Badvoc Fri 21-Jun-13 18:34:36

Wishing you all the best x

GirlWiththeLionHeart Fri 21-Jun-13 18:34:54

Good luck darling

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:35:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GirlWiththeLionHeart Fri 21-Jun-13 18:37:32

Definitely shock. You will go through a lot of different emotions in a short space of time so go easy on yourself x

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:40:34

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GirlWiththeLionHeart Fri 21-Jun-13 18:43:06

sad

He is the one who is stupid, pathetic and a whole bunch of expletives I won't bother wasting time writing.

You have three children who think the world of you (being their mother) keep them in mind.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 18:48:32

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KnittedC Fri 21-Jun-13 18:52:02

Another one wishing you luck, strength, resolve and steel here, love.

AnyFucker Fri 21-Jun-13 18:52:50

Who is perfect?

A basic level of integrity and trustworthiness is the Bare minimum required, and he can't even manage that

You are good and kind and forgiving and lovely.
He is a toad.

bigstrongmama Fri 21-Jun-13 19:28:31

Thinking of you. You are being more than reasonable. This is his mess, his fault. Good luck xx

Oh, and one week on from their dad leaving, my kids are back to their usual selves and having a water fight in the garden. I'm happily reading the paper after a good day, no trust issues in this house! The upside of splitting with a twunt is you get to be strong and whole again.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 19:28:49

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Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 19:29:43

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lemonstartree Fri 21-Jun-13 19:32:11

Please don't feel bad about yourself. You are a lovely kind forgiving generous woman who has the misfortune to be married to a man who wouldn't recognize those traits if they smacked him in the face.

Good luck. Metaphorical hand holding and strength to you

To coin a MN phrase. "tell him to Fuck off to the far side of fuck and when he gets there, fuck off some more"

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 19:33:26

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Fiiiiiinaleeeeeeee!! Dur Dur Dur Dur Dur...
(Dances like its lorenzos nitespot in the 90s) smile

Wellwobbly Fri 21-Jun-13 19:59:52

Yup. H told me in a text how much he regretted his affair.
The day AFTER he emailed Miss Shiny (which he forgot to delete).

Then there was just a perfect storm. My wonderful children staged an intervention. In which they questioned the situation (his disrespect/my anger), said they dreaded the question but had to answer it, and told of their unhappiness. Lovely brave, wonderful, feeling little people.

We are modelling AWFUL things by staying with these character disordered people. Really.

Change2013 Fri 21-Jun-13 20:15:09

I love that MN phrase! More of the Same, I'm around your age and spent 20 odd years with a cheater (didn't know for a long time). Its over 18 months since I told him to leave. I'm just at the point now where I can accept what happened and feel calm and content with my life. I was so angry for a long time.

I realise that I was in total shock for a few months after I discovered he was cheating again. You are likely in shock now but believe me I feel so much better without him. I'm as no contact as I can be with 3 children.

I am thinking of you tonight.

itwillgetbettersoon Fri 21-Jun-13 20:27:01

Hope it goes ok OP. my STBXH had an affair. He left to be with OW. Me and the children are fine. Our lives have continued to develop. We do a lot more spontaneous things like swimming after school, picnics in the park etc - things my ex would have hated. I don't have any trust issues which if he had stayed I know I would have done. I am the better person because I'm not a two faced coward Twunt. Hugs.

learnasyougo Fri 21-Jun-13 20:30:59

I was EXACTLY where you are now a few years ago, except I was living thousands of miles away in a foreign country. I found browser history of a site called 'club selingkuh'. I asked my SIL what selingkuh meant. Her face was a picture: it means an affair, like extra-marital stuff.
I was shocked because we hadn't had sex in a year (upsetting enough) and had believed him when he said he wasn't 'normal' sexually - I think he meant asexual (he was always a bit of a prude. We were married for 5 years and I never was allowed to see him naked).

I confronted him about the search history, he went ballistic, it was all an innocent misunderstanding, he was just curious to see why that was the most popular yahoo group for his country.

I gave him another chance (which I don't regret. it was in good faith) but of course he reverted back to his old ways (i found a box of condoms. he claimed a guy at work had given them to him. Uh, who gives their married friend a box of condoms? Especially with us being in a sexless marriage.

I had no cast-iron proof he was shagging elsewhere, but what made me actually ltb was the realisation that it really no longer mattered whether he was or wasn't. The marriage was already over. His behaviour towards me hadn't changed, he was still behaving like a bachelor and if he WASN'T having affairs or ONS, he might as well be. The line of acceptability had already been crossed in the constant breach of trust and clear contempt for my feelings. Even if he were as celibate as a monk it was already too late.

I left the bastard, he followed me to UK to plead for me to come back, and I felt so sorry for him because I knew he didn't stand a bat's chance of talking me round this time.

I'm BEYOND glad I did ltb. Best thing I ever did. I still feel bloody briliant about discovering my backbone. Chap I'm with now is worth a million of my xh. I wondered if I could ever trust again, but now I never worry. I have no reason to.

Your dc will thank you you did this.

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 20:39:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

learnasyougo Fri 21-Jun-13 20:40:48

I should add that the backbone didn't appear overnight. I made two attempts at leaving before actually doing it. I borrowed money to buy a ticket home, but once he'd talked me into staying, the airline refunded only 75% of the ticket. He said: "give me the money and I'll make up the 25% shortfall to pay it back".

I chased it up over months but he kept saying he would party soon. It was only after I left (borrowing money again for a flight home) he admitted he'd used the money to buy new tyres for his car angry .

karma visited him though. The biggest serious relationship he had after I left ended when he discovered via facebook she had repeatedly cheated on him. Schadenfreude.grin

GirlWiththeLionHeart Fri 21-Jun-13 20:41:53

Stay strong.

Have you tried to find his profile? I would want to see it before confronting him. He will try and say he was just looking (insert lame excuse) but if you have his profile infront of you he can't really say shit, can he

Ahhhcrap Fri 21-Jun-13 20:43:21

Good luck OP

Moreofthesame Fri 21-Jun-13 20:44:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ageofgrandillusion Fri 21-Jun-13 21:06:53

If you love him so much OP maybe this is your lot in life and you will have to share him with others?

tessa6 Fri 21-Jun-13 21:12:40

More, love should be our servant not our master.

Of course you haven't loved anyone like you've loved him. You've forgiven him huge huge betrayals of you. When we invest so much in someone we push our emotional state to reflect and make sense of that investment. If you had done all that and trust this man and you DIDN'T really really love him, well, what on earth would that make you?

If you'v already told him what you've found he's going to be primed and prepared so there's little you can learn. It's possible he's genuinely appalled and sorry and you are so vulnerable and lonely feeling right now you will be searching for desperate comfort from the very person who has hurt you.

Stay independent and detached from him, OP. Have the conversation we discussed having. Fuck 'love' and all the desperate, volatile stuff he's going tobe trying to bring out in you. Was he thinking about his love for you when he idly searched for women he could sleep with on the side on your anniversay.

FlatCapAndAWhippet Fri 21-Jun-13 21:58:56

Just sat down after a busy and long day, I thought of you. Good luck. smile

GirlWiththeLionHeart Sat 22-Jun-13 14:52:47

How are you op?

lemonstartree Sun 23-Jun-13 00:05:43

I really hope you are ok OP

maleview70 Sun 23-Jun-13 10:26:25

If you don't want it to end then you will have to have a discussion about having an open relationship but one where you Both have the option to see other people. He isn't too g to change so you either leave him or accept him for what he is. There is no other choice.

onefewernow Sun 23-Jun-13 15:11:52

Maleview, fair point, but find me the affair haver who is willing to go along with it! They never do.

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