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Finding a nice single man?

(195 Posts)
Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 12:41:17

I'm a regular who has name changed and I am ready for the flaming that I will no doubt get hmm

I have read so many threads on here from OW and about OW that suggest they go and find themselves a single man and leave the MM alone.

Ive been seeing a MM for 18 months. I love him, he loves me. We have an understanding, he wont leave his wife (he loves her and their children) and I dont want a full time relationship as I have children and I dont want to bring another man into their lives, they already have a Dad.

Because I know that we cannot be together I have never closed my eyes to the option of meeting someone else. Oh and I have met plenty of men, problem is, they are all complete nobs!! In 4 years of being single I have never met an available man who dos not have something wrong with him.

So in summary, I KNOW I shouldnt be seeing a MM, but my alternative is to be single (I hate being single, I need to kiss and cuddle someone, I feel desperately lonely when I dont have someone) or to go for 'second best' in which case I might as well have stayed unhappily married as my EX is more normal than most of the blokes I meet.

I am probably trying to justify myself, which is nice and easy on an anonymous forum, but how on earth do people meet nice men? do they even exist?

SmallChanges Thu 13-Jun-13 12:51:06

<Sighs> Really? You're a regular and have started this thread confused... The vipers are just sharpening their knives, thank you for your patience...

Marigold1 Thu 13-Jun-13 12:54:02

Bit harsh this, but maybe if you were a nicer person and didn't shag a married man you attract a nicer type of single man.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 13-Jun-13 12:55:05

Yes, you're trying to justify yourself smile Yes, you're going to get flamed. You've got to get comfortable with being single and cut out the impulsive behaviour.... sorry. Once you hit a certain age MM and other knobs form the vast majority of the people you meet, take no persuasion (I know I've been there)... deflect you from putting any effort into finding a 'nice man' and you'll only end up feeling bad about yourself.

Try online dating, community stuff, joining some sociable groups... good luck ... and don your tin hat for what's coming.

overture Thu 13-Jun-13 13:00:00

Right if this isn't HurryUpWithTheWine or AshamedGay or one of their alias trying to start another drama filled thread, then perhaps find one of their threads you will get most of the opinions and advice you'll ever need

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 13:04:24

I am a nice person Marigold

I have tried online dating, I am part of several social groups, I have lots of friends and a good social life. I go to the gym, dancing groups and excercise classes as well as volunteer work. Plenty of opportunities to meet people, and I meet plenty of men and get asked on dates a lot, but there is a reason why every single one of them is single!

My OP does not tell the full story, you couldnt put 18 months into a thread, but I am not comfortable with being single. I have been single for 4 years, 2.5 of them celibate. I need someone to hold and kiss, but I need that person to be special to me. The man I am seeing gives me all of that and is the perfect man to me but is not available.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 13:05:48

Overture I dont know what you mean and I dont know what threads you mean, but thanks anyway.

DonutForMyself Thu 13-Jun-13 13:07:03

There are plenty of men out there who will fulfill your criteria if you look hard enough. Perhaps create an online dating profile stating that you want a man who is prepared to cheat and lie, who will only be available when it suits him and who has no concept of the word commitment. Your inbox will be bursting with lovely unfaithful twunts desperate to add you to their list of women they can shag at will.

Lweji Thu 13-Jun-13 13:07:40

You realise you are still seeing a knob?

In any case, by staying with this man you won't find the single man that could be perfect for you.

overture Thu 13-Jun-13 13:08:40

I means just that, if you're not those ppl, then find their threads, you'll find all the advice and opinions of what most ppl think of your situation there.
You're sleeping with a MM, stop. You're not as nice as you think if your shagging someones spouse and father.
Sigh, its that simple.

Sodapop55 Thu 13-Jun-13 13:09:26

I suspect if you have low self esteem then naturally you're going to end up with crap men, married men, emotionally unavailable men, weird men and many variations thereof. Because you're settling for a married man who automatically puts you second to everything else in his life and is clearly a complete tosser. Do you really think so little of yourself that you'd settle for this sham of a real relationship?

Work on your self worth and issues around relationships and you may find that you find someone who is worth it.

WaitingForMe Thu 13-Jun-13 13:09:38

To be fair my single female friends are lovely and my single male friends are single for a reason!

I'm not condoning going after MM but there is a lack of decent single men.

I think you need to totally re-evaluate your whole approach to relationships along with considering what you were yourself taught about relationships when growing up. Sounds trite perhaps but we do after all learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. What did your parents teach you about relationships?.

What too do you want to teach your own children about relationships here; do they themselves know that you are seeing a married man?. What do they think of you?. And you of yourself?.

Time to make sweeping changes. I would give this married bloke the boot as of now and start loving your own self for a change because it is all too clear that you do not. You are ripe for being used and abused by chancers. Is this all you think you deserve?.

I think counselling for your own self would be a good idea to re-evaluate your approach to relationships and your relationship history to date. You need to unlearn all the damaging crap you've self taught yourself.

You have and continue to sell yourself short; you have wasted the last 18 months of your life with this chancer who saw an opportunity because apart from wanting an easy shag he also saw your desperation to be coupled up to someone, anyone male and with a pulse. Your desperation to be coupled drives you also into the arms of unsuitable men, the latest of which is this married man. He is undoubtedly lying to both his wife as well as you, he has it made currently. You are a part of his unhappy set up. It could all too easily blow up and with you coming off worse. Do you wish to spend your life waiting for him and some snatched time spent together. By doing what you are doing, you are stopping your own self from moving on to potentially meet someone actually suitable and worth it. Also this weasel is still playing happy families with his wife and is likely still sleeping with her as well.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 13:15:56

'I'm not condoning going after MM but there is a lack of decent single men'

Thank you and this is very very true.

I dont condone what I am doing myself, as I said it is a very long story that I couldnt possibly put into a thread.

I also have a lot of single female friends who have the exact same problem. Some are happy to remain single so that is OK with them, some are happy to date nobs and some are unhappily lonely. I have no idea whether any of them are seeing a MM, but I would fully understand their reasons if they were.


Why would I advertise to find MM ? Its a single man that I require. I fully understand that you are being 'ironic' but its not really that funny it is :-(

What does this MM give you that all the other men to date have not?.

He has no concept of the word love and words are cheaop. Am certain too he tells his wife that he loves her. This chancer has it well made, two women on the go. There may well be a third and a fourth, you do not know him at all really.

You've already pointed out that you don't want a full time relationship because of your kids, so what does it matter if a single guy is not perfect? It sounds like you're just after a shag anyway.

You and him are fucking up a family just for kicks. Nice!

Myinboxisfull Thu 13-Jun-13 13:17:43

Op, you say that you don't want to be single, bi put the reality is that you still are. This man is not your partner, he's someone else's. Stop seeing him and you'll have a chance of meeting someone else who will be.

I think that you also need to look at why your self esteem is so low that you are willing to accept the current situation.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 13:25:30


I got out of a marriage and my EX is more normal than most of the single guys I meet. I might as well have stayed in my marriage if I just wanted to 'put up' with someone. Even if it were 'just a shag' I was after, I dont know about you but I have to have a connection with the person I sleep with, I have to love and respect them.

There are no 'kicks' involved. We are on the same level, we know what each other is thinking and we know exactly how to make each other feel good.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 13:27:11

'Stop seeing him and you'll have a chance of meeting someone else who will be. '

Genuine question. How does that happen? I dont just stay in doing nothing but see this man. I live my life as normal, nothing would change if he were out of my life apart from that I would have nobody to love or to love me.

DonutForMyself Thu 13-Jun-13 13:28:04

Several of my friends have left unhappy relationships in the past 12 months. So far, 3 of us have met lovely new men, some of whom will go on to become long term relationships, some maybe just some fun, but none of us have had to resort to sleeping with someone else's husband.

There is not a lack of nice single men 'out there' - that's a pathetic excuse, there are lots of nice men whose previous relationships have not worked out due to incompatibility or other issues which do not make those men undateable or unsuitable.

overture Thu 13-Jun-13 13:29:02

There are no 'kicks' involved. We are on the same level, we know what each other is thinking and we know exactly how to make each other feel good.

This is definitely starting to sound like one of those threads we've all read before.

Your moral compass is malfunctioning.
What you are doing is wrong. end of. full stop.

Lweji Thu 13-Jun-13 13:31:08

Unless you are actively looking for men and dating, by being in a relationship you make yourself less available, automatically.

Being single is no guarantee that you will find a decent man, but by being involved you are probably putting decent men at a distance.
A decent man would be less likely to make an advance if he knows you have someone.

higgle Thu 13-Jun-13 13:31:27

Would it be an idea to use a bespoke matchmaker - a friend of mine used Caroline Crowther and met someone who was just a perfect match for her - she didn't realise it to begin with as she took exception to something he was wearing at the first meeting, but they are now totally loved up.

Your last sentence is what all these "other women" state. Honestly, have you really taken leave of your senses here?.

He has it well made with you doesn't he; he has someone who is willing to sacrifice her own long term emotional well being and self esteem for a married man who told you what you so want to hear (and perhaps have wanted to hear your whole life). He gets far more out of this illicit liaison than you do.

overture Thu 13-Jun-13 13:31:48

Genuine question. How does that happen? I dont just stay in doing nothing but see this man. I live my life as normal, nothing would change if he were out of my life apart from that I would have nobody to love or to love me.

Oh ffs seriously???? Grow up....This man is married and has a family, he doesn't love you, he loves his wife and dc. You're just the bit on the side. Whatever he is telling you, is simply to get what he wants.

Lweji Thu 13-Jun-13 13:33:13

And while you are giving your time to this man, and trying to extract happiness from him, you are not giving yourself enough value.
You should try, most and foremost, to be happy with yourself, then a relationship should fit nicely into your life, not seek male company to be happy.

drfayray Thu 13-Jun-13 13:36:27

But he is married. Full stop.

My ex left me and my children for another woman. So I might be a little cross here ...

I have been single (except for a strange little thing for 3 months) for over 2 years, and have been looking for a man. Not is true. But still, I am trying; online dating, activities etc. I also think as we get older,we become more set in our some may come across as knobs. Some of the nice men I have met have told me how nutty some of the single women are too! Works both ways.

BUT I love myself. I would rather be single and be happy than be in an unhappy relationship JUST for kisses and cuddles! I get a lot of physical contact from dancing, my children are loving and my friends love me and always hug and kiss me. is not sexual but it is human contact. I also get loads of love from my dog (too much sometimes...what it is to be adored by a canine!)...I also have an excellent vibrator.

Please stop seeing this MM. You are fucking up his children and his wife. They don't deserve this just so that you can get some 'cuddles'. When I think what my children and I went through...please don't.

Just stop being so selfish.

And stop with the pathos is ridiculous.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 13:36:41

'Unless you are actively looking for men and dating, by being in a relationship you make yourself less available, automatically.

Being single is no guarantee that you will find a decent man, but by being involved you are probably putting decent men at a distance.
A decent man would be less likely to make an advance if he knows you have someone'

Nobody knows that I have someone and I do go out on dates and I do actively look out for someone.

overture Thu 13-Jun-13 13:39:40

"And stop with the pathos is ridiculous."


Still think you should completely re-assess your whole approach to relationships and start loving your own self for a change.

This MM hit paydirt; your low self esteem and self worth make you a real magnet for chancers and low lifes. You would likely think differently of him if he turned up at your house with a suitcase after his wife had kicked him out and you were named in any divorce proceedings.

Lweji Thu 13-Jun-13 13:41:07

Ok, but do you not find yourself comparing the other men with this MM, for example?

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 14:00:49

Drfay - I am sorry for your situation, I truly am, but if you EX left you for someone else then you were obviously not meant to be together? whilst I understand how awful it was/is for you, the OW did not fuck up you and your children, your H made a choice to leave. I am also pleased that you are happily single. I wish I could be, but having been single several times in my life I dont like it. I love me, but I am a social person and I like the company of other adults. I want to fall asleep in someones arms, I want to be cuddled. Not every night, but occasionally. I never had that even when married.

Lweji - I do compare other men with this man, but I also compare them with my EX and I would still compare them whether he were in my life or not.

Attila - if he were to turn up on my doorstop, if I am honest I would welcome him with open arms, we could not live together because of my children, but I would help him and I would always be there for him.

overture Thu 13-Jun-13 14:06:38

the way OP writes and the dramatics, is way too familiar to previous mentioned posts. CBA

drfayray Thu 13-Jun-13 14:15:00

He had been having an affair with OW for a year before I found out. Then push came to shove, he left. I saw some of the utter shite he and OW had been writing to each other...blah blah blah...a bit like the guff you are writing.

Your tone is really annoying...I cannot understand what you want here? For someone to say poor you...all the single men are stay with the lerve each other...

I didn't say I was happily single. I said I would rather be single than in a relationship for 'cuddles. Especially a relationship with a married man. You my online profiles...I don't even consider separated guys. Divorced and single only. Separated says to me issues not quite resolved yet and I want nowt to do with those men.

Aargh...why am I even bothering I don't know. Just I feel for that MM's wife and children. It just sucks to be in that position.

You are doing a really bad thing here. Stop it. And out of utter selfishness just so that you can have a cuddle. Bloody hell.

If you are not going to stop then why ask for advice?

Heartbrokenmum73 Thu 13-Jun-13 14:27:09

Ahahahahahaha, OP, you're hilarious, really.

You say you're a regular so that would mean you're fully aware of what goes on here, yes? Do you honestly expect any sympathy or understanding from anyone here?

The only advice you're going to get (and I think everyone's been VERY polite to you so far) is to grow up and either a) be single or b) make more than a half-arsed attempt to find yourself a decent man. Because the MM you're 'in love' with is NOT a decent man.

How can you possibly bang on about love and respect when he's showing such total disrespect to his wife and children? He's a cheating toad. And there are not enough words to describe you (and women like you) who feel that MM are fair game because 'we lurve each other', 'we're soul mates', 'it's in the stars', etc, etc.


Heartbrokenmum73 Thu 13-Jun-13 14:28:27

And I completely agree with Overture - this is all extremely familiar hmm (aimed at OP, not at Overture)

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 14:33:37

I have not posted about this before.

OP, seeing a married man is plain wrong for all the reasons stated above.

But... I do have some level of sympathy, or perhaps empathy is a more appropriate word, for you because being single can be really tough, and sometimes soul-destroying, and everyone deserves love.

Dating a married man isn't the answer though.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 14:53:38

Thank you patience

I know that dating a MM isnt the answer and I certainly didnt set out to do so.

If it were as easy as 'just stop' then I would, I am not a horrible person, I didnt want to hurt anyone.

If anyone had told me 2 years ago that I would be in this situation I would never have believed it

I would love to be as lucky as the person who said that they have met a lovely man and so had 2 of their friends. I have met lots of men but they have all been odd. I find that the ones who have no children dont understand women with children and the ones who have children either dont care about them (never see them, which I find weird) or are in a bitter custardy battle with their EX which isnt very endearing either.

Others have been either obessed with me (texting and calling constantly) or really cold with me!

None seem to understand that my kids come first and always will.

Again, whilst it is not a good situation, at least with this man he understands all of that. I respect him for putting his family first, he is good to get on with, not obsessive, makes me feel good without smothering me and I enjoy being with him.

If I could find all that in a single man then that would be great !

Its not going to happen :-(

Loulybelle Thu 13-Jun-13 14:55:42

So you dont wanna be single, but you dont want a full time relationship.

So what do you actually want, relationship or just sex?

Also your an idiot with the we love each other crap, he loves screwing you and going home to his wife and children, you might as well be a robot for all the feelings he has for you. Its strange you dont want an arsehole, but your happily shagging one.

Oh and i've been single 4 years, all the men i've found are arseholes, never wanted to screw a married man.

drfayray Thu 13-Jun-13 14:59:12

"Custardy battles". This made me laugh out loud visualizing custard pie fights!

I think you mean custody.

Wowserz129 Thu 13-Jun-13 15:48:42

There is nothing respectful or nice about you or MM. He is married, his heart lies with his wife and his children which is why he hasn't left her. He doesn't love you and bigger fool you for believing it.

Do you realise how selfish you sound when you say I have to be cuddled and fall asleep in someone's arms with no regard to the fact that man has a wife and kids at home.

The situation regarding you and MM is pathetic. Get yourself a single man and some respect like everyone else does!

mcmooncup Thu 13-Jun-13 15:48:45

There's loads of stuff going on here:

There is a lot of bad male behaviour, fullstop. Your MM is the living proof of this. He's not single and still a nob.

A man won't save you from feeling low and inadequate on your own.

You are behaving badly shagging a MM. It says something about you and probably your ability to find decent men - I'd put money on you regularly turning down decent men as 'boring'.

You are hurting people so you cannot just say "I didn't mean to". Stop now if you genuinely don't want to hurt people. It really is that simple, there is no other excuse if you are genuinely a nice person.

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 15:53:34

'Get yourself a single man and some respect like everyone else does'

Very helpful. Thank you I will pop to the 'single man' shop tonight and get one.

Have you actually read the thread?

mcmooncup Thu 13-Jun-13 15:56:52

Have you ever heard the phrase.... "treat others as you wish to be treated yourself."

Think about that quite a lot.

You really need to.

It is not a coincidence that you cannot find a decent single man.

Timetoask Thu 13-Jun-13 16:00:13

Out of interest, how did you meet this man?

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 16:09:38

We knew each other at school, saw each other occasionally, I always liked him and he said he did me too, we just never told each other. Wish we had, things could have been so different.

I wrote earlier that you need to completely re-assess your whole approach to relationships. You did not responded to that point.

Also what did you learn precisely about relationships when growing up?.

Do not kid yourself that you are not hurting anyone here.
You are hurting his children by shagging their weasel dad, his wife and not least of all your own self for being a part of this hideous situation in the first place.

It is no co-incidence to me either that all the men you have seen to date are oddballs. This is precisely the type of person you attract because deep down your self esteem and worth are shot to pieces. This married man is just the latest in a long line of unsuitable and emotionally unavailable men. You are so desperate to be coupled up that you'll date any bloke with a pulse no matter how crap they are. There will perhaps be more too unless you make real changes to your own self.

One day you will wake up and this bloke you're shagging will have long gone.

Is this really what you want to be teaching your children about relationships?.

It did not work out when you were both at school and its not really working out now is it?. He will never leave his wife and children for you and he is quite happy as he is. Is he really what you want for your own self here?.

BumpAndGrind Thu 13-Jun-13 16:15:04

How can you say you don't want to be with a nob but then be with a guy who is willing to spin you lines and hurt his wife and children.

You're dating the biggest nob of them all. I really don't understand your logic on this one hmm

Impossibleornot Thu 13-Jun-13 16:18:16

Attila you are probably right.

I married a man who did not love me, he had affairs throughout our marriage that I did not know about until long after we had split. I obviously wasnt worth holding on to, so I presume that I am probably not so great for anyone to have a permanent long term relationship with.

I dont just date anyone with a pulse though, I am very very choosy about who I date, its only when I get to know them better that I find out that they are not good for me.

My self esteem and self worth are very low, you are right there, but I wont just settle for anyone, hence my concern that there are no decent single men!

I thought so, hence my initial response to you earlier.

You have low self esteem and worth written all over you and that's also evident in your responses. You are truly a magnet for low life scumbags and the married man you are seeing is just the latest in a long line of unsuitable men. I still think you need to completely re-assess your whole approach to relationships and what you have learnt from same.

Honestly if I knew you I would hand you the details of BACP and tell you to call them. Then I would walk away. You need to unpick all this crap and that will be a long and difficult process for you. I have also stated you need to start loving your own self for a change, you are full of self loathing. You can not love another unless you can fully love your own self first.

Your ex H failed you and did so throughout your marriage; your mistake if there is one attributable to you was to choose the wrong man to marry. During that time the rot you still have within you started.

You state that you don't settle; well you have and for yet another lowlife as well this time in an affair. You know too what it was like to be cheated on; you by your actions with this man are doing the same to her as was done to you many years ago.

You still have choices however, you have made and keep making poor life changes. You need to change.

Loulybelle Thu 13-Jun-13 16:35:02

Your basically, using MM, to substitute the feelings you should have had during your marriage,

And yeah you do have extremely low self esteem, probably due to your marriage.

Have you sought help to organise all these misplaced feelings?

nkf Thu 13-Jun-13 16:35:47

I am sure there are nice men. I think you've made it hard for you to find one. You are not totally free. Sounds like a waste of time to me.

MrsSpagBol Thu 13-Jun-13 17:01:06

"How can you possibly bang on about love and respect when he's showing such total disrespect to his wife and children? He's a cheating toad. And there are not enough words to describe you (and women like you) who feel that MM are fair game because 'we lurve each other', 'we're soul mates', 'it's in the stars', etc, etc.


This. With bells on. Esp last 4 letters.

Heartbrokenmum73 Thu 13-Jun-13 17:17:35

OP, how on earth can you live with being the OW when your OH cheated on you himself? How can you be complicit in doing that to someone else? What if his wife ever finds out? What if his kids find out? How do you think they'd feel? How can you be so childish (cuddles, ffs) about all this?

Moanranger Thu 13-Jun-13 18:56:33

Sorry, but I think it is a complete myth that there are no decent men. I found a super guy 6 weeks after STBXH left, and I wasn't really looking. (I am 61 BTW)
There is no simple answer to why you perceive all men you meet to be nobs, but it might be useful to do some personal reflection.
I sometimes think women expect Prince Charming, rather than "blokes" with all their faults & loveliness in hopefully not equal measure. My newfound love is balding & rather geeky, but he is crazy about me & we have a great time together, in all ways. wink- reflect, reflect...

gettingeasiernow Thu 13-Jun-13 19:16:14

You are just indulging yourself and you lack a moral compass. There's no reason why a woman with as full a life as yours just can't be on her own until someone more suitable comes along. Why is it so hard for you to do the right thing? What goes around comes around.

EllaFitzgerald Thu 13-Jun-13 19:48:29

So he's betraying his wife and children and is willing to cause them all sorts of heartache just so he can have a bunk up with you? Could you point out where he's being nice? I appear to have missed it.

I think your behaviour is dreadful and there is absolutely no excuse for it. You cannot justify an affair with a mm because you haven't met any decent single men. Has it occurred to you that you're subconsciously picking shit men (including the mm) because you know they are arses and you won't have to do something massively scary, lower your defences and trust? It certainly sounds like it when you say you find it difficult being alone.

Wowserz129 Fri 14-Jun-13 00:06:31

Yes I have read the thread OP. Do you not believe that most women find themselves single men to be with? You really need to have a look at your life if you would rather be a MM bit on the side than single.

Sounds like you and him have home wrecking in common!

olathelawyer05 Fri 14-Jun-13 00:25:40

"...In 4 years of being single I have never met an available man who dos not have something wrong with him."

You're afraid of being single and are therefore seeing a married man. Believe me, those men aren't necessarily the only ones with something wrong with them... You need to re-evaluate.

WafflyVersatile Fri 14-Jun-13 00:40:07

It's easy for the man you can't have to look ideal in your eyes. And having him probably does demotivate you from finding someone else even if you don't think so. you're comparing them all to unattainable excitingly illicit man.

Selba Fri 14-Jun-13 00:47:15

OP, whilst not approving ( it's not for me to approve or disapprove ) of your affair I totally get your point.

The " find yourself your own man " advice just isn't a reality.

I have several single, beautiful, non needy, clever and witty women friends and acquaintances .

How many male equivalents ? One that I can think of, and I strongly suspect he is gay .

Selba Fri 14-Jun-13 00:47:53

And I think it's bollocks to suggest you would be likely to meet a nice single man if you ditched your lover.

WafflyVersatile Fri 14-Jun-13 00:50:50

There are some nice single men out there. No use to me if there isn't any mutual attraction twixt me and them.

velvetspoon Fri 14-Jun-13 01:02:27

The utter smugness from people who have the sheer luck (because that's really all it is, or very low standards) to have met a 'nice, single man' is bloody overwhelming.

I have been single for 4 years. I have better self esteem than anyone I know, and I honestly couldn't have anything more going for me than I do. Not one person I know can't understand why I am not attracting loads of great men - I'm not, because there ARE practically none out there! The vast majority of single men are not looking for relationships (especially not the ones on dating sites, most of those just want an ego boost, or some casual sex. And plenty of them are not actually single either) The ones who are looking for a partner generally have wholly unrealistic ideas of who they can get (the 50 year olds who won't date a woman over 35...there's lots of those), or a whole multitude of issues and red flags which no sane woman would want to involve herself with.

Seriously, it's not some promised land of single men out there. There are very few decent ones. Chances of meeting one are TINY. I was told when I ended a relationship nearly 5 years ago, that I would have men queuing up. It's bollocks. So by all means tell the OP that she shouldn't morally be seeing someone who's married, but please let's not peddle the fallacy that she'll meet someone suitable and single straight away. If my experience is anything to go by, she'll have years on her own ahead of her. I can totally understand why that's not an appealing prospect, and why, looking at that, it may be preferable to remain in the current situation.

FrancescaBell Fri 14-Jun-13 03:11:04

I'd have thought that in order to form a relationship with a nice single man, it would help to be a nice single woman.

Your behaviour isn't that of a nice woman is it?

So the only men you're attracting are unappealing and who have huge character faults. I include the married man in that.

I suspect nice men with better moral compasses and less selfishness just aren't interested in you right now.

So I think unless you change your behaviour and that attitude you've got of being entitled to affection at another woman's expense, none of that's going to change in the near future.

You'll just keep attracting your mirror image, won't you?

drfayray Fri 14-Jun-13 03:51:26

I don't think people are saying that there are heaps of naice single men out there. I think it is a lot to do with luck. And being picky. There are some attributes I do not go for and I am sure the guys are the same.

But I would not take up with a MM just because I feel lonely.

Deal with it.

I get lonely. I miss a man's touch. But by Hilary I am not going to do such an immoral thing and take up with a MM.

I continue living my life. And the best thing... No one knows what is around the corner !

Stop this really shitty thing you are doing. Leave well alone.

aurynne Fri 14-Jun-13 05:03:00

Nice men are repulsed by liars and cheats. if you met a nice man, you would need to lie to him in order for him to find you remotely attractive. So you are not finding nice men because either:

a) You are having an affair with a married man and nice men would not choose to date a women like that.

b) You would need to lie to them about being having an affair to a married man. And they would eventually find out, and leave you for being a liar.

Every person, even the ones who commit the most heinous crimes, believe they are "a nice person". But it is your actions who define you, not your wishful hopes. Honey, you are not a nice person. And your married man is an even less nice person. You do deserve one another. The only person I am feeling sorry for is the MM's DW. She is the only one who does not deserve who she has.

dolcelatte Fri 14-Jun-13 06:11:02

I have sympathy with you OP; you were vulnerable and alone looking after your DC, your self confidence in tatters after the way your ex treated you. You fell into the arms of someone whom you had known for a long time and felt comfortable with, who gave you affection and made you feel better about yourself, without making any demands on you. I can totally understand how this situation came about.

However, you would not have posted here - at the mercy of the smug marrieds and bitter wronged wives/ex wives-for no reason. You would have known that you would be in for the equivalent of being put in the stocks, as in times of old, to be publicly abused and humiliated. So why did you do this?

My view, for what it's worth, is that you are now feeling better about yourself and are ready to move on and find a permanent relationship. You are therefore seeking a little 'push' by posting on this forum.

Good luck OP. You deserve to find happiness.

drfayray Fri 14-Jun-13 06:22:27

That may be...not all of us are bitter, you know....

munkiboy1971 Fri 14-Jun-13 06:41:56

You don't need a relationship to make your life complete. Anyone who thinks that needs to re-assess their own lives. It smacks of desperation that people get so upset about there being 'no nice men'.

Get on with your lives and stop obsessing about having to share yourself with someone else.

Jemma1111 Fri 14-Jun-13 06:42:37


You say that you have to love and respect a man
That statement is priceless ! How can you respect someone who is a liar and a cheat ?

I guess you do meet the wasters because as others have said you are a magnet for them , I imagine that they can tell you're 'easy' and have no respect for yourself .

How can you shag someone just after he's probably had sex with his wife that same day ?
I couldn't , but then again I value myself .

UptheChimney Fri 14-Jun-13 07:05:44

I also have a lot of single female friends who have the exact same problem. Some are happy to remain single so that is OK with them, some are happy to date nobs

So it's OK for your "single female friends" to be single, but you just need to have a man? Another woman's partner?

I'm not sure I've read anything quite so utterly selfish for a long time.

Lweji Fri 14-Jun-13 07:12:21

I just hope his wife is not your "friend" too. hmm

And yes, some of us have not been cheated on, have dated, been on relationships, and don't feel the compulsive need to be with a man.

A relationship is nice, but we can get self worth and love from other sources.
Which we can't really get from an affair with a married man.

dollyindub Fri 14-Jun-13 07:23:27

A few OW on this thread I think. I can't believe how some people are justifying OP's behaviour and low self esteem.

velvetspoon Fri 14-Jun-13 07:37:58

There is nothing wrong with wanting a man in your life. I appreciate if you are a cold person, or have a very low sex drive, you probably don't.

But a lot of women like myself have plenty of friends, a busy life, blah blah. But that doesn't make up for not having the affection and sex that comes from a relationship with a man. It can't. So please don't insult anyones intelligence by pretending otherwise.

As for all this ' oh you're clearly not a nice person if you can't find a nice man' what utter bullshit.

You may not like the OPs actions, but don't make out that if she chose to end it and make herself a 'nice' person she would suddenly attract all kinds of wonderful men. As a longterm single woman I can categorically state that it wouldn't matter how nice she was. Everyone I know tells me how lovely I am. I can't find a nice man either. Or are you all going to now say that's my 'fault' in some way too?!

dollyindub Fri 14-Jun-13 07:48:35

Who is that directed at Velvet?
Plenty of posters on this thread are single, myself included.
Yes I too would like to meet someone, and agree that there is a severe shortage of decent, available men out there.
However, that will never justify shagging some other woman's husband. Ever.

UptheChimney Fri 14-Jun-13 08:00:13

But a lot of women like myself have plenty of friends, a busy life, blah blah. But that doesn't make up for not having the affection and sex that comes from a relationship with a man. It can't. So please don't insult anyones intelligence by pretending otherwise

velvetspoon believe me, I know exactly what you're saying. For many long years I know exactly what you're saying. Single life utterly I sucks sometimes.


I would still never justify an affair with a married man because I NEED "kisses and cuddles" so much that my "needs" are more important than the base fact that I'm sleeping with a married man. I'm not that pathetic.

drfayray Fri 14-Jun-13 08:02:26

Whoa! I am a hot blooded extremely sexy woman who adores sex! But I draw the line at shagging a MM.

JessicaBeatriceFletcher Fri 14-Jun-13 08:13:48

I know plenty of nice single men. I know plenty of nice single women. Unfortunately there isn't always that 'spark' we hear so much about. I still see women in their 30s getting burnt time and time again by falling for the 'bad boy' or the player and overlooking the nice guy because he isn't QUITE as exciting. Such is life.

Sorry, but I don't care how lonely or in need of sex someone is. Knowingly shagging a married man (or woman), especially one with kids, is pretty damn low behaviour. If someone doesn't know they are married to begin with and then discover, that's different (and we read about that happening quite often). Choosing to carry on an affair in the way the OP has, sorry, don't care how lonely, it sucks, and I say that as long-term single and bloody gagging for some fun in the sack!!

overture Fri 14-Jun-13 08:22:19

sigh, is this thread still going??? I would venture Velvet is Mel from a thread that was shagging the MD of some supposed company(laugh) or maybe they all one in the same? I've already said who I thought OP is.

This thread just reeks of NC'd BS. Same rubbish and always few supportive OP posts to wind up MNers abit, shrug

velvetspoon Fri 14-Jun-13 08:42:05

I can assure you I'm not the poster you refer to. Check my posting history, you'll see its fairly lengthy.

I just feel that whilst I can understand the moral judgments being made of the OP (and. I'm not saying what she is doing is right) dressing it up in a 'if you were single now/ not messing around with a MM/ a nicer person you would find the man of your dreams is rubbish. Because its a lie. Appeal to the OPs better nature by all means, but don't pretend there are lots of amazing single men out there - because really, there is no such thing.

JustinBsMum Fri 14-Jun-13 08:42:46

* I need to kiss and cuddle someone*
* I have to have a connection with the person I sleep with, I have to love and respect them*

ROFL at this.
You sound like a simpering teenager, OP, the man is using you as a quick shag without strings.
Def get some self-help books or counselling to look for a happier, more confident you.

drfayray Fri 14-Jun-13 09:13:46

I know overture!

I usually don't bother much with this sort of thread but the OP has really annoyed me!!

Just her 'tone'....

UptheChimney Fri 14-Jun-13 09:30:18

Her "tone" is that of an entitled selfish teenager ...

To be honest I find the vitriol and BS from some posters on here more annoying than OP.

I agree with everything velvetspoon said.

Disclaimer: I have never dated a married man, nor would I. I was also cheated on, over a long period of time.

Lweji Fri 14-Jun-13 09:42:11

I don't think that by dropping the MM the OP will find the man she dreams of.
But I don't think she'll find him while she is shagging MM.

First she needs to get rid of her need to be with a man, and be happy with herself.
Then she is more likely to have the boundaries and give off the signals to attract and go for the right kind of man.

It may still not happen, but at least she'll be happy anyway.

UptheChimney Fri 14-Jun-13 09:43:28

I agree also with what velvetspoon says: but it never ever justifies an affair with a married man. The OP's insistence that she needs "kisses and cuddles" (she won't just say "sex" she has to be all nauseatingly coy) is what is so out of order.

She needs to deal with being alone and happy in her own skin. I know how hard it is (I was widowed early & was left a single parent & quite heart-broken -- never been fully non-single since), but to see having any man as a "need" is just juvenile.

higgle Fri 14-Jun-13 09:58:42

I'd repeat my suggestion to try a more formal introduction agency. I'm not sure if you have said how old you are anywhere on the thread but one category of man you haven't mentioned is the slightly older one. Perhaps a widower or perhaps someone who has had a mature and amicable split and has children who have left home or are about to. ( obviously if you are early 20's this is not an attractive option).

I won't judge you on the MM situation, sometimes odd situations suit for a while, but ultimately these things end in someone's tears, and it is not going to make you happy forever.

Impossibleornot Fri 14-Jun-13 10:52:36

I might as well be completely honest here.

I have recently been diagnosed as bipolar. I knew that something wasnt quite right for a lot of years, but now I know why.

I darent let someone see the 'real' me, I am not the best person to live with when I am not well, it is much easier for me to have someone part time who only sees me when I am at my best.

I am not 'juvenille', I am just someone who wants to be loved. I am not particularly happy in my own skin and I am very very scared of being on my own when the children leave home, having someone part time, whether it is the right thing or not, is my safety net.

I dont want to specify my age, but my children are teenagers, they dont 'need' me so much any more.

Upthechimney - I 'need/want' kisses and cuddles AND sex. I have a very high sex drive, but I am also human and need human contact, however 'nauseating' that sounds, it is perfectly natural.

BeCool Fri 14-Jun-13 10:59:42

"Oh and I have met plenty of men, problem is, they are all complete nobs!!"

Interesting - why you don't class a married father who enters into another long term affair with a mother as a nob?

Seems to be the height of nobbish/selfish/entitled behaviour to me.

The thing is, by being in this affair, you have made yourself emotionally unavailable to actually finding a nice single man. You will certainly not find one while you are involved with this man.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill Fri 14-Jun-13 12:16:04

All this talk of what you need sounds like an addiction to me. Addictions harm you and the people around you. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

UptheChimney Fri 14-Jun-13 12:19:17

Upthechimney - I 'need/want' kisses and cuddles AND sex. I have a very high sex drive, but I am also human and need human contact, however 'nauseating' that sounds, it is perfectly natural

Lots of people want that. Everyones human. But they don't seek out sex and affection from someone married to someone else. They deal with it like an adult, not an entitled teenager.

You're not special, although you seem to think you are.

You have bi-polar granted but you can still make choices. You keep making bad choices in men and this MM is just the latest in a long line of unsuitable men. You will never be happy in your own skin unless you make real changes for yourself; this is what I also mean about loving your own self for a change. How can you possibly love another when you cannot even love your own self?. Its not possible.

I will reiterate that you need to completely re-assess your whole approach to relationships because what you have tried to date has not worked and it is not working now.

I would also argue that as teenagers, your children need you more now than ever. What are you teaching them about relationships here exactly?. What do you want to teach them about relationships, the same dysfunctions that you were?.

FrancescaBell Fri 14-Jun-13 12:50:21

Sympathies re. the bi-polar and how you daren't show all parts of your self but you're confirming what people are saying might be the problem.

All the men you've met in the past have been men who've encountered a woman with an undiagnosed (and therefore untreated) personality and mental health disorder.

You mention love a lot but it's not love if you only show a part of yourself.

The married man only shows a part of himself to you too, so your love for him is just as inauthentic, but he doesn't have a condition to blame for that.

Are you getting any treatment for the bi-polar?

Might be worth abandoning all relationships with men until you do.

You might find you attract better men once you're helped to manage your condition better?

I know a few people with bi-polar and they are attracted to illicit and dangerous experiences. They are also quite selfish a lot of the time come to think of it - their needs always seem to come first and bugger the consequences. Whether that's the disorder or them as people, I really don't know?

But I recognise some of your statements as things they'd come out with.

Heartbrokenmum73 Fri 14-Jun-13 13:06:13

Well, OP, I've suffered with severe depression since have my first child. It has fuck-all to do with anything. And I'm in the process of splitting with my partner and feeling like absolute shit. Guess what? I'm STILL not thinking 'ooooh, I need cuddles and kisses and sex because I am super special and will shit on anyone who stands between me and what I want'. I'm lonely as hell. I have no one to talk to about my situation. I haven't had cuddles and kisses in ages. They just stopped. Do you know what I do have? Self respect. You should get some of that. And leave that poor bloody woman's husband alone.

UptheChimney Fri 14-Jun-13 16:40:36

As a recovering addict friend of mine says "You can be sober and still be an a**hole."

JustinBsMum Fri 14-Jun-13 19:15:45

I darent let someone see the 'real' me, I am not the best person to live with
Are you sure the real you is sooo awful.

I have recently had a light bulb moment and realised that many of my lifelong problems were due to wanting to be seen as more than I was. And now I am the not particularly likeable, not particularly intelligent, not particularly sympathetic but v real me, I realise I am pretty much the same as everyone else - you may not be the best person to live with but most people are not the best person to live with.

I don't know how much of your perceived problems are due to being bipolar but I don't imagine that all bipolar people are single.

stargirl04 Sat 15-Jun-13 02:02:05

Just a thought. Let's suppose the OP finds her clarity, self-esteem and manages to realign her moral compass, and subsequently ends the liaison with the MM.

What are the chances that he is likely to smack himself on the head and say: "I've been such a selfish, unloving and abusive lowlife by having this affair with a woman I care little for, betraying a woman I truly love... I must stop this at once and never do it again." .... OR... simply finding the next OW (because there will always be an OW) and spinning the same lines to her?

Please vote (think Sun-style You The Jury).....

blackbirdatglanmore Sat 15-Jun-13 03:42:32

I am relieved to read velvetspoon's posts as they echo my own feelings and experiences.

It also highlights a huge issue with being single - if you ever express discontent at the situation, even in passing, you are told explicitly as well as implicitly that it is your fault, you have not tried hard enough and need to join groups, be involved in the community and try online dating. If you have tried those things you are clearly desperate and if you have not you only have yourself to blame. Oh and you should be happy single.

I am reasonably happy single, but I'd like to share my life with somebody. Like velvet, I have tried and 'failed', it isn't for me, and I don't know why!

I don't condone the OP's actions but the sheer aggression directed towards anyone who admits discontent at being single, at times, has to be seen to be believed.

Last weekend, I went to see a film on Friday night, alone. My friends were having nights in with their husbands. On Saturday I did DIY and gardening then went to the theatre, also alone. On Sunday I did a spinning class (you guessed it - alone) I am not bored or short of things to do but all those things would have been so much nicer in the company of somebody!

This weekend I am actually seeing someone but I'd say I spend every other weekend totally alone. And don't tell me I need to do more. I have lots of friends but you try it some time - try to pin down married friends with small children, you can't!

MrsSpagBol Sat 15-Jun-13 05:01:41

"Upthechimney - I 'need/want' kisses and cuddles AND sex. I have a very high sex drive, but I am also human and need human contact, however 'nauseating' that sounds, it is perfectly natural."

It is natural, completely. This doesn't give you the right to ride rough shod all over anyone in your path, including a married woman and her kid/kids. It's THIS attitude that is getting people's backs up, NOT the fact that you are seeking love/affection.

To quote Heartbroken, "...leave that poor bloody woman's husband alone."

munkiboy1971 Sat 15-Jun-13 05:20:53

I'm not sure that anyone is being aggressive towards anyone for being single. Of course, with the right person, things can be better shared but this whole 'I have to be in a relationship' stuff really is boring.

So what if there are no decent single men out there, by the same token there are no decent single women out there either. You don't have to be in a relationship to be happy and if you find yourself unhappy simply because you don't have a man you are not in a very good place emotionally.

People can pick up these subliminal signals and will naturally back away. Been there, done that. It is only when you are truely happy with yourself that you will start to be attractive to others.

I am single by the way, and no, I'm not looking for a relationship and really don't want one. I do fancy a shag now and then but tbh, with all the hassle involved in being with someone else , I'm just as happy having a wank.

blackbirdatglanmore Sat 15-Jun-13 08:24:08

I am not saying I'm unhappy because I'm single; if that was the case, I would have been unhappy all my life!

All the same, just as it has its perks, it has its downsides. No sex. (One night stands aren't for me - no judgement there, it's just that they aren't.) Long, long periods of time spent alone at times. Holidays/weekends away/ meals out can be difficult.

I am afraid people do become aggressive if you ever voice discontent and start insisting you have not tried hard enough, I just don't bother!

I also take issue with the fact I am apparently presenting myself as unhappy to single men, hence why I am not in a relationship. I don't meet single men! I meet married ones or ones in relationships! Obviously I don't lure them away from their wives (couldn't even if I wanted to!) Tried online dating, no interest.

It does get a bit wearing being told implicitly and explicitly that you have something wring with you, both for wanting to meet a man and because it has not happened. I am an attractive (nothing special but fairly nice face, hair) well educated, pleasant person. I have my own home, own car, lots of friends - and am single, and it can be fine, it can also be a pain in the arse. I work in a school; to be honest that long six week holiday can be very - well - long!

I don't condone affairs. I don't condone cheating. But I do have to raise the point that we are sold a myth, that we have loads of time, and that 'Mr Right' is around the corner. Often he isn't, and this leads to misery as women force themselves to believe the slobby, lazy bloke who is pleasant and affable enough is their Prince Charming. Ten years later he's having an affair and she's stuck with him.

More pertinently, I am having a child alone because I d not believe I will meet a man - this does not mean I haven't got a yearning for a child. As such I have attended several open days run by the clinic to meet women who are also going alone. Given the costs of IVF with donor sperm and the costs of raising a child alone it probably won't come as a surprise to learn every single one of the women were well educated, high earners. Every single one was at least averagely attractive, and every single one believed 'one day' they would meet their man - but not every single one will have the baby she longs for.

Honesty is what is needed. I think the fixation on somebody for everybody actually leads so many women - and it is women - to accept second best.

UptheChimney Sat 15-Jun-13 08:37:50

It also highlights a huge issue with being single - if you ever express discontent at the situation, even in passing, you are told explicitly as well as implicitly that it is your fault, you have not tried hard enough and need to join groups, be involved in the community and try online dating. If you have tried those things you are clearly desperate and if you have not you only have yourself to blame. Oh and you should be happy single

Oh I agree! I have been there, done that, got the T-shirt. And I think I'm probably 20 years older than many of you. It only gets harder, and I've given up, to be frank.

But ...

The OP expresses a "need" for affection, "kisses & cuddles" as the excuse for sleeping with a married man. That's what gets up my nose. That somehow she is special & different to the rest of us.

I might want certain things, but I don't turn that into a need, which excuses bad (if not quite atrocious and self-deluding) behaviour. And a mental health condition does not excuse her either.

blackbirdatglanmore Sat 15-Jun-13 08:46:45

Absolutely, Chimney, I agree with you there. Want is not a need.

I just felt I had to put in a word for our defence regarding 'nice single men' - they aren't as easy as that to find!

As an aside, my brother is neither single nor (pains me to say it) particularly nice. He is physically handsome, but is crude, boorish, employed through an agency with casual shifts after being dismissed from his professional role hmm - essentially he is 35 this year and has done a total of ten months' work. He's also got an occasional penchant for physical violence if you really upset him (only if you're a woman or elderly man, though.)

He is dating a pretty doctor he met on plenty of fish. I imagine she's with him through desperation. Why a nice looking and well educated woman has lowered herself, I don't know, but she is 35 and probably wants babies.

I know that's off topic but it isn't just us!

Fairylea Sat 15-Jun-13 08:50:36

Do you realise how daft you sound? "I need someone to hug and kiss". Are you 15??!

You don't need anyone... you just think you do because you don't know yourself very well, you haven't learnt to be self sufficient at all especially emotionally. And I think you're scared of being hurt actually which is why the mm is nice at arms length!

I was on my own for many years when my ex dh left seemed like the end of the world. I thought was over. But actually it made me so much stronger. Cliche but true. I was completely single for ages and even though I then went on to remarry and have another dc I'm never afraid of being alone now which actually makes you in a much stronger position in a relationshipas you won't put up with crap for the sake of having someone to hold and kiss.
Then and only then attract the right sort of men.

Impossibleornot Sat 15-Jun-13 10:11:07

Blackbird - I think you have completely hit the nail on the head, you express it so much better than me, but your life sounds very much like my own (apart from my affair obviously :-( )

I find it very frustrating that everything I have said has been picked up on and pulled apart. Because I admit to wanting a man to love me, kiss me, hold me, I am juvenille and pathetic.

For the record, when I was 15 I didnt need anyone at all, I was happy hanging out with my mates. Its now when the days and nights are spent with no adult company that I 'need' someone.

Yes lots of women do it, but I find it hard going on days out or meals out with just me and the kids. I do it, but I dont feel comfortable doing it. We are not going on holiday this year because I cant bear the thought of sitting alone by the pool when the kids go off and do their own thing, or sitting alone on the balcony when the kids are in bed.

And its not about not attracting the 'right' sort of man, I meet plenty of men, its not like I repel the decent ones! by my age, the decent ones are married or taken, the ones left behind seem to be the ones with the issues.

UptheChimney Sat 15-Jun-13 14:31:00

Yes lots of women do it, but I find it hard going on days out or meals out with just me and the kids. I do it, but I dont feel comfortable doing it. We are not going on holiday this year because I cant bear the thought of sitting alone by the pool

It's this utterly selfish attitude that others are objecting to!

Poor ickle you -- you find it "hard" doing things on your own. (You're actually not on your own, are with your children).

So you grab the partner of another woman. Because you are soooooo special, you just "need" someone, and no-one else matters.

It's very unattractive from where I'm sitting.

I think I'm going to have to hide this thread. It makes me quite angry to read your repeated justifications for amoral and selfish behaviour.

drfayray Sat 15-Jun-13 14:45:23

Yes too angry.

I don't know why I am even writing I said I usually don't on these sort of is the poor ickle me attitude I find reprehensible.

Not go on holiday with your children because you will be alone? FFS! You will not be will be with your children! I wish I could afford to go on holiday with my beloved children who are also teens.

It is the selfish attitude and sense of entitlement that is vair annoying ...<musing>

I just had an hour long phone call with DM (who lives in Singapore) about my 'love life' haha...lack of really mummy said I! I am sort of seeing a bloke atm...but not serious...he is single and actually decent as in own hair and teeth, tall, solvent, good job, smart and a bit into me! But am not rushing into things as I am not desperate to jump into his, I would rather be lonely than jump into someone's arms just for the kisses and cuddles...DM said yes admiring tone (from DM rather rare TBH)

I did feel sorry for you esp with MH issues then I read your last miss the point of what most of us are saying...leave the MM alone. He is a nob. A big hairy yukky nob for what he is doing to his DW and DC and also to you OP.

Fairylea Sat 15-Jun-13 16:38:17

Ermmm for what it's worth you have "issues" yourself.. an 18 month affair with a mm and you're convinced he's a nice man? Your moral compass is all off. So don't be so dismissive of older men who have so called baggage or issues when you clearly have plenty yourself!

Also I'd imagine you can't introduce your mm to your dc anyway? So surely all this stuff about not wanting to holiday alone still stands... as the poster above says, your dc would be there too. You wouldn't be "alone".

And I don't have the moral high ground. I had an affair with a mm when I was 18 and he was 31. I am deeply ashamed of that, I was young and very naive and stupid. I didn't realise what it would be like to be in the wife's shoes.

Which is why I'm writing on this thread.

I've learnt from my own mistakes.

Viking1 Sat 15-Jun-13 16:54:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lweji Sat 15-Jun-13 17:13:13

And despite being with this man, you are still not going on holiday because you are partnerless. hmm

Fairylea Sat 15-Jun-13 17:33:56

Also suppose you do meet a nice single man... you're not "single" yourself at the moment are you? So hardly fair to the new man.

AnotherLovelyCupOfTea Sat 15-Jun-13 19:11:52

REally agreeing with blackbird here.

Like BB, I'm not unhappy single because I've been single so often it is just part of me now really. Would like tomeet somebody but I have to laugh at the optimism of others sometimes, thinking (hoping on my behalf)that I will meet "somebody nice" when I'm 42 with two children. I also agree that there is an ignorant assumption that you must be doing something wrong, not going to enough salsa classes, scaring men off hmm being too fussy... blah blah blah. It couldn't just be that there really is a shortage of decent men for decent women?

btw I don't think the OP's mm is a decent man obviously!

AnotherLovelyCupOfTea Sat 15-Jun-13 19:22:41

If married couples included single people in their circle when they socialised (both men and women) maybe maybe maybe it might be possible to meet somebody!!!

I really agree that if you ever express a desire to meet somebody you're ripped apart nearly. barriers up around you? too fussy? not going out enough? I turned down one invitation recently and was made to feel it was no wonder I was single.

EccentricElastic Sat 15-Jun-13 19:23:26

Oh and I have met plenty of men, problem is, they are all complete nobs

...and this married man, by cheating on his wife, isn't?

Triumphoveradversity Sat 15-Jun-13 19:31:40

You do realise that there will also be men who will be horrified by your having been the ow, the nice ones you want to meet. They will deem you untrustworthy.

Your MM is not decent at all. He is lower than the belly of a snake.

AnotherLovelyCupOfTea Sat 15-Jun-13 19:34:02

I'd rather be single for another five years the rest of my life

It is lonely sometimes, I do sympathise. But .......... what can you do? maybe I should try internet dating again. I wish there was a filter though, I am not fussy about 'tall' or 'successful' or any of that bullshit but I am extremely fussy about a man being a decent man and good company.

micshi Sat 15-Jun-13 22:17:01

impossibleornot I understand where you're coming from.

I've been seeing someone who has a girlfriend on & off for over 6 months. Of course I didn't know he had a girlfriend at first, but carried on seeing him anyway as I persuaded myself that I was ok with it.

I wasn't though. Apart from the fact that his girlfriend would have been very hurt if she ever found out what was going on, he couldn't fulfill my needs. The longer it carried on the more my feelings for him grew & I resented the fact that he wasn't around when I needed him & that was simply because he was with her. I put up with it for months though as I couldn't bear weekend evenings on my own & thought maybe it was better than nothing. I have only just come round to the idea that maybe nothing is better than to be treated in a way I don't want to be.

Like you I have been on countless dates with 'nobs' found on online dating sites & joined groups, but haven't found anyone.

I'm only now coming round to the idea that maybe it'll do me good to be on my own for a while, especially as I have never been on my own having been with the same man for 19 years!! Though I agree it is hard. I think also you think you 'need' kisses, cuddles, etc because you're not used to not having them, like me.

I'm hoping by getting out of this toxic relationship, I'll find who I am more & then I'll meet someone when I'm in a better place

Good luck

Selba Sat 15-Jun-13 22:48:25

" there will be men horrified you were the OW "

Yes, those who are reeacting life in Victorian Britain. Well rid of such judgemental tossrs.

FrancescaBell Sat 15-Jun-13 23:03:24

Is that right?

If the people on here are to believed and there really is a shortage of decent single men, then what you are arguing is that in ratio terms, there are far more decent single women to the amount of decent single men.

That being the case, why would a decent single man pick a woman with form for dishonesty, who's got mental health problems and who is selfish enough to deny her children a holiday because she doesn't like being by the pool on her own, when there are allegedly lots of single women who have none of those problems?

Or are some of you suggesting now that there are hoards of decent, non-judgemental men around who won't mind in the least that a woman has these issues?

You can't have it both ways.

Pomegranatenoir Sat 15-Jun-13 23:19:02

That is someone's husband and someone's dad. Nothing else to say. You both need to sort yourself out and stop being so bloody selfish. How do you sleep at night

AnotherLovelyCupOfTea Sat 15-Jun-13 23:25:03

eh? well, first, I've not had an affair with a married man, so not defending my actions here, but usually what brings people together is chemistry, they find each other good company, I doubt that most men will have an entirely clean rap sheet themselves. I think a man is not going to reject a woman he is attracted to for admitting to an ill-judged affair in the past. I think it's a bit scarlet letter to suggest that decent men would do this. Decent men wouldn't judge surely? decent men would have empathy? decent men would forgive! Decent men wouldn't pin a red letter on you and say, oh, sorry, thought we could have had something you and I but no, you're aren't worthy of me. hmm


The truth is that there just aren't enough decent men to go round . Lots of women (married and otherwise) settle for knobbers out of loneliness, fear, low self-esteem and this applies whether they are married to them or single.

UptheChimney Sun 16-Jun-13 08:03:48

IME, there are more men than women who prefer to stay single.

It makes me quite irritated actually -- newspapers etc always talk about women leaving it "too late" for babies blah,blah,blah. No-one ever points the finger at the Peter Pan men who don't want to "settle down".

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 11:43:08

That being the case, why would a decent single man pick a woman with form for dishonesty, who's got mental health problems and who is selfish enough to deny her children a holiday because she doesn't like being by the pool on her own, when there are allegedly lots of single women who have none of those problems?

What a nasty wicked thing to say.

And thank you for filling in your own version of events for me.

I am not denying the children a holiday, they are holidaying with their Dad, I am 'denying' them of a second holiday, because last year I ruined it for them, because despite trying my absolute hardest, I struggled last year and I am scared to do it again. But please do carry on assuming that I am being 'selfish'

Thanks to the others for their understanding.

FrancescaBell Sun 16-Jun-13 13:01:04

I'd have thought having an affair with a married father was 'nasty and wicked' not to mention selfish but as usual, people in your position have very strange barometers of what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour.

From what you've posted so far (including what you've said about ruining and then stopping holidays with your children) I don't assume your behaviour is selfish.

It's self-evident.

Heartbrokenmum73 Sun 16-Jun-13 13:36:29

No, OP, you're patently not selfish! Of course not hmm.

Your actions show what a kind, thoughtful person you are. Y'know, how you've considered the man's wife and children when entering into a relationship with him. When you're denying your children a holiday because you don't want to sit by the pool by yourself (are you a teenage girl?). When you ask for advice on a website full of women who've been cheated on, then get shirty when we don't condone your HORRIBLE actions and choices - and let's face it, they ARE choices.

Yes, you're just the epitome of selflessness, aren't you?

As you were.

Fairylea Sun 16-Jun-13 14:23:12

Are you really actually looking for us to agree how difficult it is to find a nice single man in order to justify your affair and seek approval for continuing it?

I'm starting to wonder if that's actually the purpose of the thread.

LadyInDisguise Sun 16-Jun-13 14:43:32

Re 'needing kisses and cuddles' do you know that this is the ONE thing that elderly people are missing the most? That they usually have spent years wo anyone touching them and it is a real issue for them, down to their physical and emotional health.

So on that pov, I do believe that this very physical need is exactly that. A NEED, just as sleep, eating and drinking are needs too.

And yes there is an issue with 'single people' as you are supposed to be either happy to be single or are supposed to find a man to live with you. I know a few friends who are single and in this situation. Either, they have become very 'anti-men' saying that they are all not worth it (and miserable sods), having ONS after another. Or have drown into depression as they felt worthless for not finding a man worth spending their life with.

Does it mean that it them makes it OK to have an affair? Well it doesn't make it OK for the man who is married and is breaking the trust of his wife to have an affair no.
Is it OK to have a relationship with a man who is clearly capable of such a deceit? I am not sure either.
Will that relationship bring any happiness to the OP? No neither.

I think that solution is a loose-loose situation for both of them. But I am not suer what is the solution either...

LadyInDisguise Sun 16-Jun-13 14:47:14

BTW, the worry of being single and not finding someone to love again (and make love to) is the reason that keep some women into their relationship even if it's far from perfect.

OctopusPete8 Sun 16-Jun-13 14:58:24

I am actually with Marigold here, you are putting your wants before a families integrity and in terms of his wife safety, not good.

LesserOfTwoWeevils Sun 16-Jun-13 15:04:43

What blackbird, velvetspoon and ladyindisguise said.

blackbirdatglanmore Sun 16-Jun-13 15:05:52

Short term, the only solution is to break up with this man. I don't think the situation is solely of the OP's making but nonetheless the current situation is unfair on everybody.

I have been single quite literally for all of my life. I have never been in a relationship. It can be very difficult - easier, I am sure, than being with somebody who doesn't show me love or consideration or respect, but all the same, that doesn't mean it is easy.

Being 'single' is often hailed as some sort of fantastic thing because of the 'freedom' but people who act as cheerleaders for this sort of lifestyle often do so because their visits to the land of singledom are very temporary and they know this.

If I was going to London for a week, I am sure I would love it. I wold visit the museums and the theatres and the galleries, shop, see the sights and immerse myself in it. I am sure I would come away from that trip thinking how fantastic London is.

If I went to live there and had to deal with a staggeringly high mortgage, crowds, congestion, I probably wouldn't enthuse quite so much about London then! It's much the same with single/couples - but what is interesting is that as this thread demonstrates, any complaints, no matter how mild, about being single are not tolerated and you are briskly, sometimes, told to make the effort!

Please, if you are married, or in a committed relationship, don't assume your single friend is sleeping off a hangover on Sunday or that she will be busy all the time, chances are she won't. Maybe showing a bit of kindness helps - I find now, in my thirties, my friends are very much tied up with their own young families which of course I understand but all the same leaves me dare I say it - lonely.

OP, I'm not going to tell you what the answers are, I don't think you are selfish (thoughtless, yes) and certainly misguided, but I do think you need to take some control of the situation. Accept that being single can be shit grin (it helps to be able to say that and now be shot down!) but there are good sides to it as well.

Good luck.

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 15:12:22

Heartbrokenmum73 - you keep saying that I am 'denying my children a holiday' how did you come to this conlusion? They are having a holiday with their Father this year.

I admire women (and men) who are able to do things like that alone with their children. I tried it and I am not good at it, I felt like I ruined the childrens holiday, I would feel more comfortable spending the money sending the away with their Dad. Se that as selfish if you like, but I am considering my childrens needs, I dont think they enjoy being with me.

And it is nasty and wicked for me to be having an affair, I agree.

OctopusPete8 Sun 16-Jun-13 16:25:53

You don't like doing things alone with your kids? Jesus! you have bigger issues that just being the OW I expect tbh,

Fairylea Sun 16-Jun-13 18:33:47

What octopus said.

You need to spend time alone with your children. Build a relationship. Then having a holiday with them will be a joyous time rather than a chore or bore.

I get the feeling you don't know how to enjoy just "being", really letting yourself go with the children. I recognise that because I used to feel the same but the more time you spend doing things with them the more natural things become.

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 18:42:37

Well, I'm a single parent and I spend too much time with my children so I really wonder if what the OP needs is to spend more time with her children - seriously??

Really agree with the common sense from Blackbird, Upthechimney, Velvetspoon...

The truth as somebody said, that there are more men who prefer to STAY single than women who prefer to stay singe! so do the maths... It isn't our fault we're single. I also resent the suggestions (not so subtle) that it is my fault somehow. My attitude. That I'm too fussy. ha!

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 18:43:35

The denying your children a holiday stuff is ridiculous.

akaWisey Sun 16-Jun-13 18:46:19

Did you check with your DC's that you were 'not good at it' and 'ruined their holiday"? Their perceptions may well be very different to yours.

As far as the MM thing goes. I'm with the majority AND I'm single AND I'd like to find a nice bloke AND I'm actively seeking one AND I'm happy to be on my own until I find someone who gets me and whom I feel comfortable with. It ain't hard.

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 18:49:06

ps, I agree with you Blackbird, married couples, women should show a bit more kindness and inclusion towards single friends. You are also right that it is just not acceptable to ever express any discontent at all about being single. For some reason it makes people so uncomfortable. Even if you are saying quite reasonably that you are fine most of the time but occasionally you are lonely or would like company. It's just not something you're allowed to say. But if you announce too cheerfully or too vociferously that you are very happy being single people will say 'she doth protest too much'. It's actually a very tricky one.

You should blog about being single! you have it 'down'. wine

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 19:24:56

I dont know where I have ever said I dont like doing things alone with my children ! I said I am not taking them on holiday this year as I was so unhappy last year I felt like I ruined it for them. I didnt have the strength, energy or confidence to do things with them and their Dad does. So until I feel better about myself I am not prepared to put them through that again. They are good kids, they would never say they were not having a great time.

I dont think it is possible for me to spend any more time with them than I already do! and I have a great relationship with them, I want it to stay that way, so I will continue to hide from them that I am unhappy and if that means 'denying' them a holiday then I will do that FOR THEM.

LesserOfTwoWeevils Sun 16-Jun-13 20:02:47

OP, I can sympathise with your feelings about "holidays.". I've chosen more than once not to take my DCs on holiday in the past because I suffer from acute social anxiety and the thought of being in charge and having to deal with a strange place and strange people was just too stressful. My DCs wouldn't have enjoyed it with a stressed-out mother.

Fairylea Sun 16-Jun-13 20:17:41

I apologise re the comment about spending more time with dc. I suppose in fairness I was thinking back to when I was a single parent.. I was working full time and dd was in nursery or with my mum and time we did have together I was exhausted and fed up. So I don't think it's true that just being a single parent means you spend too much time with your dc. It totally depends onthe dynamic etc. So I am sorry I was relating to my own experiences.

I do really think however there are good single men out there. I met dh after I had two failed marriages behind me. He is a lot younger than me and we have a child together as well as my dd from first marriage.

Don't give up.

blackbirdatglanmore Sun 16-Jun-13 20:31:01

I don't think anyone is saying, necessarily, there aren't good single men out there. There are, of course there are.

However, the actual logistics of meeting one are tricky at best and a lot is down to sheer dumb luck - and it is that which others, including I, have taken some issue with. Not meeting a decent man does not mean that you yourself are not decent, attractive, pleasant or successful. But to admit that would be to admit that you (on a general note rather than a personal one to you Fairy) could end up in that situation as well - and as this thread demonstrates beautifully, no one wants to admit that - so we convince ourselves that single women are single because of something 'wrong' with them.

They try too hard. They don't try enough. They don't socialise, or they are always socialising. They aren't "nice." They haven't learned to love themselves (if they dislike being single) or they are too independent (if they like it.) They haven't "put themselves out there" or they aren't "rounded" (they need hobbies!) or they need to do online dating.

It is disappointing, on a board like Mumsnet, where your daughter liking pink or admitting to never leaving the house without makeup elicits cries of outrage, to see such entrenched values and attitudes.

I have hopes for the future but not assumptions. To make plans for a life which doesn't involve a man is not on a par with "giving up" but it is important to have somewhere to discuss these feelings and thoughts without being told either that YOU are the problem or having them shrugged off - how many other single ladies get blasted from time to time with "Well I had given up then six months later I met my DH and we got married and had the fairy tale ending."

Funny how most of us pour scorn on the fairy tales but believe, on some level, everyone's "prince" exists, even if in a non-conventional form.

I'm writing my story and my happy ending will be what makes ME happy, not society grin

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 20:54:00

Thanks Fairylea, appreciate that comment.

I do feel stressed with the kids sometimes but they are teenagers, they are off doing their own thing a lot of the time, but we do have a good relationship. Rightly or wrongly, they will never ever know when I am unhappy because I hide it from them. I found it hard to do that when we were on holiday. They see me as a strong person and they would be very shocked to realise that I was so scared.

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 20:54:36

Blackbird I really hope that you get your happy ending because you absolutely, totally and utterly deserve it.

blackbirdatglanmore Sun 16-Jun-13 21:19:40

That's really kind Impossible - I think that I WILL, it just may not be society's idea of a happy ending.

I'm going, if I may, to go back to your bipolar comment. Are you on any medication for it? Those criticising the OP may like to remember how difficult it is for people with a disability - essentially you are asking someone with a serious MH issue (and bipolar is) to go out of her comfort zone on holiday and then to say she is depriving and neglecting her children - how very unpleasant!

Bipolar also has a high sex drive, neediness and impulsivity as some to name but a few symptoms, I really feel the OP is being taken advantage of by a man who is probably loving it.

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 21:21:26

I could not agree with you more blackbird! So, so refreshing to read your posts, and it's true, even on mn where normally posters are so enlightened wrt to praising their dds for things besides their looks, and encouraging their dds to be themselves and not please men etc, there is still a deeply entrenched train of thought that if a woman is single it is her fault.

I used to wonder was there something different about me, years ago now. My mother said to me (to try and console me I think?) "ah well, some women aren't the marrying kind". and I had to burst her bubble I'm afraid. I said calmly, "no, I am the marrying kind, but I am not married".

Like you say, so much of it boils down to dumb luck, pot luck, timing.... I am nice etc, there are no barriers up around me. I don't have an unrealistic list. I

Maybe the happy ending is that I just totally accept being single, 100% accept it. Because at the moment I only 75% accept it. So that is one possible happy ending really.

Impossibleornot hope you figure it all out. I don't like to see people in your shoes berated for being selfish when you're lost and lonely. I hope you find the strength to realise that you deserve better, but until then, I'm not going to take a swipe at you. I don't relish the thought of spending a lot of money to go away with my children either by the way. I can listen to them squabbling at home. I cope, but being somewhere lovely without another adult to appreciate it, and two ungrateful fighting children......... no thanks. And that doesn't make me a bad mother so I'm sure you are a good mum!

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 21:23:32

"I think that I WILL - it just may not be society's idea of a happy ending"

snap wine

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 21:26:37

Blackbird I am not on any medication at the moment, there are a number of reasons, I have tried quite a few different meds but none agreed with me and the side effects were too much for me (my resting HR was 190 on the last one I tried), I am working through it with counselling and because it isnt 'severe', I am self managing by understanding what to do when I am on a low (the highs are actually great and I get loads done)

The MM has no idea that there is anything wrong with me, I wouldnt even know where to start with telling him, you may be right about him taking advantage though.

blackbirdatglanmore Sun 16-Jun-13 21:26:42

Thanks for kind thoughts - always a relief not to get a flaming! grin

I sometimes stalk SolidGoldBrass for her posts on marriage and why it exists - very refreshing, honest and certainly made me take a sharp look at the world around me.

Viviennemary Sun 16-Jun-13 21:28:31

What is the point on living on a few crumbs of love that this married man has deigned to give you. Surely you are worth more than dating a cheat and a liar.

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 21:44:43

Impossibleornot, I think that that need for companionship that I'd also definitely admit to having could only be filled by a man I could TALK to, really really talk to very honestly.

Is it possible that hiding your real self from him is just another effort?

Does the time spent with him really recharge you? Maybe it does because I guess playing the part of somebody confident, sorted, independent, insouciant and interesting is energising??! Maybe it is that that you can't give up.

Acting a really good part (which is just a version of you) is probably comforting in the short term but ultimately it's a façade that will drain you and exacerbate the loneliness.

Sincere apologies if I'm totally barking up the wrong tree here.

Impossibleornot Sun 16-Jun-13 22:13:42

Another you are absolutely right. Acting and being someone that I am not and can never be full time, makes me feel alive, normal, sexy and loved !!

Behind closed doors I dont feel like any of those things. A tiny part of me thinks that if I could find someone just like MM but not married, then I could be that person all the time.

Its like he gives me fuel to carry on, if that makes sense?

teatimesthree Sun 16-Jun-13 22:33:39

Yes, there is a shortage of nice single men. I am in my late 30s, and the vast majority of single men my age are single for a reason. Luckily I enjoy being single, because I don't see that ending any time soon.

As I think blackbird said, there is also a shortage of nice married men. I know loads of women who put up with lazy, grumpy, childish men.

I don't think I would ever have an affair with a married man. But I can't understand the MN attitude towards the OW. Surely it's the MM who deserves the flaming?

badinage Sun 16-Jun-13 23:03:06

What an interesting thread.

I think it's understandable to want to pair-bond and have a romantic and sexual relationship and I don't think women should be sneered at for wanting a regular sex life within an established relationship. It shouldn't be 'uncool' to admit to being fed up of singledom or to say that a FWB arrangement isn't something that's wanted, if that's how individual women feel.

But coming to your particular issues OP, it seems logical and obvious to me that you're unlikely to be in the right frame of mind to meet the sort of bloke you want if you're emotionally involved elsewhere (you say you 'love' the MM), if you're playing a part and hiding your true self from people, if you've got a mental health issue and you find meeting new people difficult as soon as you're out of your comfort zone (e.g. holidays).

All of those things are real, tangible barriers to meeting 'nice single men' aren't they?

I also think there have been a few posts which assume that if a bloke was put off by you having been an OW, this would be hypocritical of a man especially to judge you (the inference being that men will always have behaved badly themselves at some point) or that this would mean he was 'Victorian' in his values. That seems quite man-hating to me. My DB was put off a serious relationship with a woman for this reason (and others) not because he was judgemental or Victorian, but because he saw it as a red flag that the woman concerned didn't particularly value fidelity and because he realised it was part of a pattern of general selfishness in his new girlfriend. She was fairly unabashed by her previous actions though and didn't appear to have any regrets, apart from that the MM had dumped her and hadn't left his wife and kids for her hmm.

So that might be yet another barrier, but that depends I think on your actions now. This relationship with the MM is going nowhere and is likely to lead to you stagnating, not growing. If you're at heart a decent person, it won't sit right with you for much longer that you're hurting another woman and her family just to prop your life up. But if you don't get out of this relationship for altruistic reasons, the self-interest argument is too compelling for you to stay in it.

It's doing you no good at all and is just adding to the barriers you've already got to achieving the sort of life you want for yourself.

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Sun 16-Jun-13 23:09:13

Impossibleornot I do get that honestly, and I sympathise, because it's the crutch that's supporting you in the short term.

Blackbird is right, there is also a shortage of married men, and so many married women also put up with too much! So, a man who has many needs, terms and conditions and places you last on his list, that man might be throwing in a bit more petrol when he takes you out for a drive but the end result is that he's a hole in the bottom of your tank that top ups can never counter.

Kind of using the John Gray analogy there! But that book isn't total nonsense, I could condense the entire book into a paragraph but still, the basic idea is sound.

Selba Mon 17-Jun-13 00:12:00

OP made it clear in her first post she doesn't WANT a full time relationship.
So why all this advice about how she is unlikely to meet a nice, single man while having an affair?

OP if you are both careful I don't see that it's SUCH a dreadful thing you are doing. Not ideal , but I can see why you are doing it and certainly don't think you are wicked.

Selba Mon 17-Jun-13 00:23:53

So OP, is what you are saying , you don't want a full time relationship but would like a nice single man to see occasionally, in the way you currently see your married lover?
That bit confuses me actually. I don't see how you can be that into your lover if you are keeping an eye out for a single version. ( really, not criticising, just curious )

Do you or don't you feel guilty about having an affair? Does it make you feel bad about yourself ? ( I'm not suggesting it should )

financialnightmare Mon 17-Jun-13 00:41:56

I've been in a similar place to you, OP, at a different point in my life.

Don't beat yourself up. You know this is not a positive and constructive way to live. But you are human.

WRT the holidays - I am the same. I just take a few days off and plan things at home: make an effort to invite their friends around etc. As yours are older, I guess they aren't that keen on a holiday-with-mummy anyway. Just make some time for them, or make a nice dinner that they might like. They will understand that you love them in the way that YOU can. They have one parent who can take them on holidays - they are incredibly lucky! And another parent who loves them - double hoorah. smile

I hope that you can get some peace in your life - and someone who will love and cherish you - before too long.

badinage Mon 17-Jun-13 01:35:01

I don't get your confusion Selba.

The OP wants a sexual relationship where there is an emotional bond, but she isn't seeking a live-in relationship or a father substitute for her children. That's why she's asking advice on meeting nice single men and it's the title of her thread - and that's why posters are advising accordingly.

I can definitely see why she'd prefer a single man with whom to have that sort of relationship. Apart from the freedom to make arrangements that suit both and the liberation of not having to sneak around out of the public gaze, the OP might prefer having a mutually monogamous relationship.

The OP has also said she regards her actions in having an affair with a MM as a bad thing to be doing and her feelings about that are hers and therefore perfectly valid. How others judge that is neither here nor there, is it? Speaking for myself, if I felt that something I was doing was a bad thing, I'd find living with myself hard going and so I'd want to change that so I felt good about myself again.

elastamum Mon 17-Jun-13 09:00:35

Oh FFS OP! Why dont you dump the married man and get a dog? You will have lots of unconditional love, someone to cuddle, a reason to get out everyday and meet other people and you wont be wrecking someone elses life hmm

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Mon 17-Jun-13 09:11:29

Why don't you log off mumsnet and go on oloko?

Impossibleornot Mon 17-Jun-13 09:53:41

elastamum A dog? you are comparing having a DOG to having a relationship with a man?

Besides that being completely laughable, I actually hate dogs. Hairy, woofy, annoyingly bouncy things. Cuddling something who licks its own arse? no thanks. Same goes with cats. Apologies to anyone who loves cats/dogs.

Selba I see what you are saying about being on the lookout for a single version of MM. I understand what you are asking and I can assure you that I am very much 'in to him' but I know that we have no future, so I suppose I am protecting myself for when it is eventually over.

elastamum Mon 17-Jun-13 10:07:34

Impossible - of course not, but it wasnt as flippant as it sounds. I was single and on my own with young children for a number of years and having the dogs in the house meant that although I was frequently alone - I wasnt nearly as lonely as I would have been without them.

And they got me out every morning and people talked to me.

FWIW, I would much rather cuddle a dog than someone elses cheating H. grin

Impossibleornot Mon 17-Jun-13 10:13:46

Whilst I can understand that works for some people, I am lonely for adult company, not lonely per se smile I have my kids to clear up after if I want something to do.

I actually looked after a dog for 6 months when I first split with H. Hated every second of it. Hated being tied, hated cleaning up hairs and shit and I hated the smell.

I talk to lots of people outside the home, its inside the home late at night when all is quiet. Dogs cant discuss the latest news item or chat about house prices unfortunately :-(

UptheChimney Mon 17-Jun-13 18:28:09

Thing is, Impossibleornot lots of women are in your position, and don't seem to have your entitled attitude towards being "lonely for adult company" and all the other euphemisms you use to excuse your selfish behaviour, and the way you respond to other women on this thread.

It really annoys me, because YOU are joining in with the "smug married" behaviour velvetspoon & others have described. You are very dismissive of being single -- it's not for you -- somehow you really "need" to have sex & affection etc. And by continuing to say this as a justification for sleeping with the husband of another woman, you seem to have contempt for other single women, who can manage apparently. You can't, because you're so special You can't bear to be like many other single women -- it seems to me you think you're somehow more deserving than other single women.

Stop kidding yourself & grow up. And now I know what the MN expression "boils my piss" really means.

Impossibleornot Mon 17-Jun-13 18:44:14

Actually upthechimney I beg to differ, I think you will find a lot of single women feel exactly the same as me, but the darent say it for many of the reasons posted in this thread.

I have lots of single friends and whilst many say that they are 'happy' being single in public, they arent. I have wiped the tears of many of my friends away when they feel worthless, unloved and lonely.

In real life, everyone thinks I am happily single. They would probably describe me as happy, content, confident and someone who doesnt need a man. They dont see me posting on here, or crying when the kids are in bed.

I have been the 'smug married' myself. I never thought I would end up in the situation that I have and I certainly dont think I am 'special' I am responsible for my own life and my own happiness.

Having an affair does not get rid of the 'loneliness for another adult' either, in fact quite the opposite, so there is no justification there.

And as others have said, there is nothing wrong with 'needing/wanting' affection. Its a very human and very natural desire.

badinage Mon 17-Jun-13 18:53:32

I don't think there's anything in the least bit odd about wanting romance, affection and regular sex with one partner.

But having an affair with someone who's married is patently one of the least efficient ways of achieving that.

I'm wondering what it was that you wanted from this thread OP?

Your initial questions were how do people meet nice men and whether they even exist.

Presuming those questions weren't disingenuous, have you had the advice you were seeking?

Impossibleornot Mon 17-Jun-13 18:58:26

Not really ! it has just made me see that there are others in the same situation (I mean unhappily single, not having an affair)

I know I need to make changes, just not really sure what or how yet.

badinage Mon 17-Jun-13 19:16:51

I'm sure you need to make changes. There have been many suggestions about which ones and how to go about it, but I don't get the impression you yet want to do anything different. Sometimes when we're in situations, it's impossible to see the consequences of what we're doing and it's only when we change things and look back, we can see that a relationship, job or way of behaving was stunting and holding us back.

I think this might apply to you right now.

UptheChimney Mon 17-Jun-13 19:32:09

Impossibleornot it helps actually to read posts. I don't deny at all what velvetspoon & others have said about being single. They've expressed the difficulties of the situation very eloquently. They copuld have been writing the story of my life & my experience: married people don't like having the facts of singledom explained to them, for example.

And as I've said myself, I've been single for a long time. I was widowed in my 30s with a small child, and my heart really was broken. By the time I had recovered, I was in my late 30s/early 40s and I know from bitter experience that there are very few nice single men who want to be in a committed relationship. As I said upthread, I've pretty much given up.

But what I object to what you say, absolutely, is that throughout this thread you have used your difficulty with being single and your want to have affection, to justify your behaviour in having an affair well to put it truthfully, fucking a married man.

Many women experience the loneliness etc of being single. Many women think to themselves "This wasn't what I planned." But not so many women then go on to justify sleeping with someone else's husband because they "need" sex. Hell, a lot of us might feel that way, but we don't behave so immorally or selfishly.

I am just fed up with your selfish justifications. And you don't seem at all able to accept that you are behaving disgracefully towards another woman, your children, and yourself.

Impossibleornot Mon 17-Jun-13 20:07:42

I think my main crime here is to not be able to express my difficulties 'elequently'.

I have said time and time again that I know that I need to make changes, I am not sure what or how you would prefer me to put it.

I think that you have misread (or I am not so good at expressing what I mean) what I have said about needing/wanting affection. I DONT Get that with the MM, I never will either, as he has no plans to leave. I WANT that with someone single, but I cant find someone single.

Whilst you have my greatest sympathies in what happened to you, I think you have been a little unfair in saying that I am selfish because I would like someone to love and hold.

badinage Mon 17-Jun-13 20:45:29

It's not selfish to want someone to love and to hold.

It is selfish to have an affair with a married person and to continue with that arrangement.

You're unlikely to get what you say you want or need if this and some of your other untackled impediments continue.

You still might not get what you want or need even if you tackle those barriers, but if it's at all important to you to know that your integrity and honesty are intact, you will at least have those, plus the opportunity for things to change for you in the future.

Lweji Tue 18-Jun-13 06:43:42

Why are you with him, then?
What do you get from him? Apart from sex?

You can easily drop him any time you want.

OneMoreChap Tue 18-Jun-13 09:18:14

As other posters have said - why do you think those other men are single.

At that sort of age it's likely many of them close to your age will probably have children [in which case - rightly - you're not going to be the focus of their attention]; if they didn't have children, why would they necessarily want to be with a woman who does?

I understand that many single/divorced men complain about the paucity of nice single women, too. I met my lovely DW through work. OK, she was my OW for a bit, but I changed job, stopped relationship and then later left wife. I got OW back as GF then DW. She might say she got a nice man - but I was MM when we met...

I'd hate to be single, too, so I understand the drive to be with someone...

Impossibleornot Tue 18-Jun-13 10:09:15


From experience it seems that men of around my age (and im not fussy I would happily go younger or older) are single because of the following reasons:

1. Never been married or had a serious relationship (alarm bells ring straight away here for me)
2. Divorced/seperated with no children (in my experience this doesnt work as they so not understand how high in my list of priorities my children come)
3. Divorced/seperated with children (in my experience, as in the ones that I have met are very bitter and spend most of their time whinging about how much their exW take from them, how they dont see the children, etc. etc. I am still yet to meet someone from this category who is OK with the fact that I have an amicable relationship with my ex)

In an ideal world I would like to meet someone from (3) above, but one who is a good Dad and spends lots of time with his kids, I wouldnt want to intrude on that, not straight away anyway. I would not respect a man who did not put his kids very high up on his list of priorities (and before anyone says it, my MM DOES put his kids high on his list, its one of his appeals to me, he spends every minute possible with them)

As you were a MM when you met your DW, you are likely to understand the reasoning behind my MM's actions. I fully understand that anyone who has not been in that position themselves will just presume that they are a bad/selfish person, which I presume that you do not class yourself as?

DonutForMyself Tue 18-Jun-13 10:18:12

Impossible I met 5 blokes from OD sites, 2 of them had 50/50 custody of their DCs and an amicable relationship with their ex; one was a SAHD previously and spends 2 days a week with his DCs now, although was a bit bitter about his ex; one had grown up DCs, no issues with his exes and just wanted someone to spend a bit of time with at the weekends (wouldn't have worked because I have my DCs most weekends); one had no DCs in his early 40s because his ex hadn't wanted them and he was quite sad that he may never have his own DCs but open to possibly being SD to a new partner's DCs.

Not sure why I don't appear to have met any of these unsuitable nut-jobs, but honestly my experience of dating was nothing but positive.

OneMoreChap Tue 18-Jun-13 10:28:57

nah, I'm probably bad/selfish but I loved my kids :-)

I'd say that one of my single siblings (well divorced but available) has a lot of "success" on dating sites. [mix of single/divorce/MW] who want a range encounters...

Impossibleornot Tue 18-Jun-13 10:30:23


Very pleased for you! I presume that you had longterm relationships with all of those men? or that you are still with them/one of them?

From dating sites I met:

One man who was estranged from his children and didnt tell me until the third date, he described them as 'parasites' they were 10 and 12.

One man who said he was 5'11 and an Accountant. He was 5'3 and worked in Tescos

One man seemed very nice and then the morning after our date he texted me to tell me that he has a 'massive boner' and was I feeling horny for him?

One man I went on a date with, arranged another, it was a while before we could meet up and he started sending texts every hour saying how long it would be until we saw each other again, i.e. 'just 352 hours until we are together again'

Another seemed very nice, I saw him for a while, but I asked him not to call me, or call around out of the blue (I had not told the children I was seeing anyone) he ignored this and would ring and pop round constantly, when I asked why, he said he didnt trust me not to be seeing other men.

These are just to name but a few. I have been called a prick tease when I havent fallen into bed with them on the first date and I have been called a prude when I have objected to sex texts (and pictures!!!)

OMG writing all that down, I can see my answer staring me in the face as to why I would 'settle for second best' with a MM (said tongue in cheek, I know its not right)

badinage Tue 18-Jun-13 14:39:02

I realise that was tongue in cheek, but the MM could be described as:

One man who thinks it's acceptable to take away his wife's choices while he secretly forces her to have a non-monogamous relationship for 18 months.

That doesn't seem to be a lesser offence in any way than the ones committed by the men you met on OD sites.

How is that not selfish either?

Impossibleornot Tue 18-Jun-13 14:59:35

It is selfish, I didnt say it wasnt.

And I agree, he is taking away his wifes choices.

badinage Tue 18-Jun-13 15:22:40

^ I fully understand that anyone who has not been in that position themselves will just presume that they are a bad/selfish person, which I presume that you do not class yourself as?^

Which gives the impression you do not presume your lover's behaviour is selfish.

As a few people have pointed out too, you quite rightly castigate the men you've encountered on OD, but have a think about what you bring to the table and why you might be off-putting to better men and only attractive to very poor quality characters.

I know of quite a few families who do shared parenting/residence and all of the men have found new partners. Only one did so on a dating site, but AFAIK it was one for professionals and charged a hefty fee. The others met women through work, the tennis club and one met a fellow single parent through his son's friendship with her lad.

I don't suppose any of those relationships would have got off the ground if those women had been in love with other men, who didn't like meeting new people on holiday, who had mental health issues and who were frightened of being their real selves. One or two of those impediments are probably surmountable in a fledgling relationship, but the package of all of them, less so.

I just can't see how you're going to meet a nice single man until you address those barriers and realise that what you bring to the table is flawed too.

Impossibleornot Tue 18-Jun-13 16:22:21

who didnt like meeting new people on holiday

I love how words that you say are taken completely out of context !!

I said that I didnt enjoy going on holiday last year because I was low and felt that was unfair on the children. Not once did I say that I didnt enjoy meeting new people on holiday and actually had I met new people on that holiday it might have been better, however, I didnt. And that wasnt because I didnt want to.

blackbirdatglanmore Tue 18-Jun-13 17:46:55

We're getting back to the "if you are single it is your fault" posts. It isn't. Finding a partner is as much a matter of luck as it is attractive appearance, pleasant personality, intelligence or a good job.

I don't like meeting new people on holiday - why, because I don't go to "mingle" (puke) or socialise, I go to relax. I don't for a moment think there is anything wrong with me or that I need to alter my approach.

UptheChimney Tue 18-Jun-13 18:16:19

Finding a partner is as much a matter of luck as it is attractive appearance, pleasant personality, intelligence or a good job

I absolutely & utterly agree, Blackbird I get so sick&tired of people suggesting "Maybe you're single because you're too ..." whatever.

But, and this is what makes me cross, this is something some of us just put up with. We don't use it as a justification to fuck have an affair with somebody else's husband, or turn our want for affection into a "need" that trumps ethical behaviour towards other women.

Impossibleornot Tue 18-Jun-13 18:30:21

Again, words into my mouth.

Where have I said that I justify having an affair because I need affection? I actually dont get the affection from my affair, its something I want/need that I am not getting, I think I have mentioned that several times now.

And having an affair doesnt just involve 'fucking' it isnt always just some sleazy, dirty, underhand thing. Whilst I understand that you are angry, I am not the married one, I remained faithful through my marriage and that was my choice, I will not makes choices for others, live and let live.

badinage Wed 19-Jun-13 00:28:54

Participating in this thread feels strangely like being an unwilling actor in a bad re-enactment of that old film Gaslight.

I get the impression OP, that if we bumped into you in the morning and you said the weather was shit - and we replied that yes, it was overcast and humid, you'd say:

"I didn't say that! Look, there's blue sky over there and the sun's about to come out!" confused

So, overlooking all your utterly contradictory posts where you alternately say you're doing a nasty and wicked thing, then imply you're not responsible as you're not the married one, or that your lover is behaving selfishly, but it's wrong for others to presume that he's selfish - and suspending any scepticism that you're not the same wind-up poster who had a similar thread around Christmas time which comprised of the OP sparring with and sniping at anyone who gave advice she didn't want to hear, what it comes down to is this:

You will do what in the end, you think suits you best. If you take from this thread a reinforced sense that it's just terrible luck you've met no nice single men and that they might not even exist - and that a man who's been lying to his wife for 18 months who doesn't give you affection, is as good as it gets for now - fine.

It's your prerogative to ignore any contrary opinions and to continue this thread sparring with posters instead of engaging with the essence of their posts, or any advice they offer.

Just as it's other posters' right to disengage when they feel that an OP is on a wind-up, is trying but failing to yank people's chains and isn't looking for any real advice about resolving the dilemma she posted about.

Lweji Wed 19-Jun-13 07:35:27

No, you're not married.
You're just the getaway driver for a bank robber.

And what on earth are you getting from this man?
Are you even more than friends with him?
Utterly confused.

JessicaBeatriceFletcher Wed 19-Jun-13 08:17:31

Suspect it is time to disengage this thread. I don't see why the OP bothered asking any sort of question, as she clearly doesn't listen to anyone else or see any other point of view from her own.

Hopingtobehappy Wed 19-Jun-13 09:19:56

I agree its time for me to stop posting. It doesnt matter what I say its taken out of context smile

Lweji I would love to answer the question as to what I get out of it, but it will be the 'wrong' answer, so I am not going to bother.

Still dont understand how I have not 'listened' I have read every single post.

Are people waiting for me to say that I have dumped this man and become Mary fucking Poppins, holidaying happily with my children whilst gaily laughing with my new friends at the tennis club before heading off (grinning from ear to ear) alone to have a wank with my latest collection from Ann Summers? Give me a week and I will see what I can do.

UptheChimney Wed 19-Jun-13 09:33:20

alone to have a wank with my latest collection from Ann Summers

You see, THIS is how you completely disrespect other single women.

Pretty contemptible.

AnotherLovelyCupOfCoffee Wed 19-Jun-13 09:56:05

Geez. That is so derogatory. I don't think it's a 'good' idea to have an affair with a mm, but when I read these threads it's the vitriol directed at lonely 'mistresses' that sickens me more. And, like you say upthechimney the contempt for single women confused

Lweji Wed 19-Jun-13 10:12:38

It's not the wrong answer, but you (whatever username you're using) talk about companionship, love, sex and then it's not about that.
It would help (you, mostly, IMO) to know what really is that you are getting out of this relationship.

Personally, I don't care what you do.

Going back to your OP, every single man you will find will have something wrong with him, as does this man (he's married, a cheater and a liar, to start with).
It's just a matter of finding one that has something wrong, but with whom you can be happy with despite that wrong thing. (we all have our faults)

In any case, I do hope you take from this thread that you work on your self esteem and on how to be happy with yourself without having to depend on a relationship.
As I do suspect that neediness will tend to attract the wrong sort of person, yes.

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