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Another porn one.

(147 Posts)
taKsad Tue 14-May-13 10:39:19

So, I have pretty strong views on the trade of humans. I have made my views on porn, lapdancing and all the other varieties of degradation pretty damn clear in the last 14 years my dh and I have been together.
I have also made it clear that the use of such services amount to mental cheating to my mind. I'm not asking anyone to tell me whether this is right or wrong, in my head it is so.
I came home yesterday to collect my bloodwork form and pop to the hospital. Since I had dd 3 years ago I have been pretty damn ill, and spend a lot of time at hospital for one reason or another. Dh was upstairs, in our room. He didn't come down when I called so I went up and found him with the computer. Silly me, eh?
He now says (obviously) that he's sorry, he knows it's wrong, he's been trying to stop etc. I think he's just sorry he got caught.
How do I move on from here? I can't stop crying, I feel sick. To me, as I said, this is mental cheating. And it is also degrading. And it's been going on for at least three years. He's been lying to me for three years. This man is my rock, he has been there and supported me solidly for 14 years. I can't believe it. And please don't tell me I'm overreacting- that's not going to help.
Any wisdom?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 10:49:40

I don't think you are overreacting. I share your views. Last year when my dh was caught out having been to a strip club many years before he met me but lied to cover it up because he didn't want to look bad it really knocked our relationship. I completely withdrew, the intimacy was completely destroyed. It has recently begun to improve but for me there was a period where I was no longer in love with him and where I could not trust or respect him which lasted around 6 months. sad

I would have loved to have some physical space. I have been out of the house much more often since and being able to have some (limited) physical space and spending time increasing my social relationships has really helped but you have to be careful you don't get your head turned by flattery from someone else as this will make things worse.

Can you ask him to stay somewhere else for a while so you can think?

I had always said visiting a strip club would be the end, no negotiation but historical would be forgiven if spoken about. He however lied and was found out so I had to basically decide what the relationship was and whether it was worth it. I have renegotiated my position in it and I feel I am now more of an equal which made it worth the work. We've been married 4 years. I'm not sure if things will work out. I'm no longer able to say I am prepared to be here for life. That, I am aware, will seem an outrageous overreaction to some but for me there are essential reasons why I cannot tolerate this kind of thing and its my right to feel that way. I hope things continue to improve and we can get back to where we were in terms of my feelings for him but we're not there yet.

It doesn't help at all when people treat you like you are made for even being upset.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 10:50:29

*mad

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 10:54:26

PLease keep talking to me. I came home form work today as I feel illand I'm just torturing myself looking at the sites he's been using.

CajaDeLaMemoria Tue 14-May-13 11:00:00

Has he said anything else? Or just that he's sorry?

I second Offred's advice on asking him to leave for a while. Just to get your head together. It sounds crazy, but it will really help to have your own space. It'll also show him what a big breach of trust this has been for you, and perhaps prompt him into taking it more seriously?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:04:09

sad It will help you to try and be a bit pro-active. Make yourself a safe space to have feelings in for a start. Don't allow things to start sliding out of control. If you want just go to bed and hide/sleep. Always wish I could take my own advice on this one so I know it is hard.

Where is he now?

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:04:56

He is taking it seriously. He wants to get councilling and he's already ofered to leave for a while. I know it sounds silly, but I want him here. I want my husband, my rock. I just don't know how to manage the utter tidal wave of emotions I've got going on.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:05:21

He's at work, but should be home at lunch time.

quietlysuggests Tue 14-May-13 11:09:16

What does this mean- Hes been trying to stop
How big a problem is this? Is he saying it is a regular thing and he thinks he has a problem and has tried to stop and cannot?
Because that is very serious.
Or is he saying he does it from time to time but wont do it again?
Because that gives you much more hope for the future. If he stops now then you WILL be able to forgive and move forward.
But if he keeps doing it?
What do you think? Is it an irregular thing he really regrets? Or a habit he wants to hold onto?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:09:22

I think the problem, it certainly was for me, is that your image of your husband has been exposed to be false. You need some time to come to terms with that and be able to objectively assess a more honest version of him before you can make a choice about what the impact on your relationship is.

You have had a shock, maybe you are trying to cling onto him for that reason.

Don't feel this is silly. Just because most people don't have a problem with porn doesn't mean you can't and certainly whatever anyone's feelings about porn are they would always feel upset to find their husband had lied about something crucially important to them.

At the moment I don't think clinging to him would be a good plan, you'd end up just trying desperately to pretend you hadn't found out.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:11:00

He needs to be really honest too.

He needs to work out his real feelings about porn.

My husband was trying not to hurt me, it didn't make it less hurtful. I can handle honesty about things that I feel threatened about/object to but not lies designed to fool me that he is something he isn't.

BLOO3Z Tue 14-May-13 11:15:28

The lies are hurtful, Im really going to sit on the fence on the viewing porn side here as have worked with too many men in the past so think this is normal for a lot of men to look at this stuff. Although I realize not all men do as I have known a few of them too but think they are the minority to be honest.

Im not saying I agree here as I can see how hurt you must feel and he has not taken your opions and feeling into account at all here.

I do however think you need to be realistic he has not cheated on you, or are the sites he going in ones where he is actually interacting/contacting women, if that is the case then you are justified to be upset. if However he is just watching this stuff to get off on that is a lesser crime in my view, is he using it as relief if you have not been well?
He should however be more open with you and discuss this with you.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:15:36

That's exactly it, offred. My husband, the man I know and love, is not the real one. So who is?
I don't know, quietly. He say a couple or three times a month, mainly out of boredom. I bought him a guitar ffs, if he's that bored why doesn't he do some fucking practise? He's aways banging on about how little free time he has. Clearly not that bored then.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:17:09

I also think the relief because I haven't been well is a very valid point. So I also feel weirdly guilty, as if I'm partly to blame. Which I know is utterly fucking ridiculous. I've been a little preoccupied trying not to DIE here.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:18:27

I hope to god he hasn't been meeting up with/contacting women. He says not, but these sites have so many click throughs to all sorts of shit <brain bleach>

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:20:24

I would advise both of you not to be too quick to commit to a decision about how you each fee about thisl. You need to highlight that actual real honesty from both of you is the only way you'll be able to be happy together at the end. You will not be happy together if you feel you should tolerate something you find unreasonable or if he feels he has to lie to please you.

If he actually just likes porn and doesn't have a problem with it telling lies about having a porn addiction will just prolong the agony. If he genuinely feels like you and that he has a problem then he probably needs to go off and deal with that by himself I'd say. Mostly real life will be somewhere in between which is why thinking time will help you to each decide your positions and needs/feelings.

BLOO3Z Tue 14-May-13 11:22:02

Dont feel bad taksad for being ill but I think that it is a beter option to let him get releif at this way rather than having a horrid sordid affair just for sex. It is a priamal need after all..
Have you withdrawn from in other ways too not as many hugs etc, beacause you feel ill which I can realate to btw it all just becomes somthing else for you to put on your to do list when you feeling crappy.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:24:16

I wouldn't like this thread to descend into the usual porn is just what men do/abusive to women because it is irrelevant really.

The OP has clearly stated her particular feelings about it. Her DH has not. He needs to and she needs to a. be able to deal with the shock of finding out he hasn't been honest about himself and b. decide if she wants to be with the real him. The merits of porn or otherwise is fairly irrelevant since the OP has been clear with her husband about her feelings all along.

BLOO3Z Tue 14-May-13 11:27:05

Yes I agree offred he has kinda not thought about her feeling at all knowing that she was very anti-porn.

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 14-May-13 11:27:23

Whilst recognising that you feel strongly about this is there any compromise possible in your mind? Is discreet usage acceptable to you or does it have to be zero?

GetOrfMoiLand Tue 14-May-13 11:27:57

I am so glad the first poster on this thread was you offred - seen many threads like this trying to make the OP feel silly for being so upset.

Thing is it doesn't matter if most people think that men use porn and it is normal - the OP hates it, her husband knows how she feels and has lied about it for some time. The OP is incredibly upset about it understadably.

I think the idea of some space is a good idea whilst you work out of ithis is a deal breaker for you.

I went through something similar with DH when I was pregnant with dd2. What got to me was I was fucking horny as hell whilst I was pregnant too! hmm It was a symptom of much bigger problems in our relationship though. We went to hell and back before we finally got to a place were I can say our relationship has recovered and I fully trust him again. It's taken an awfully long time to get here (7 years)!

I agree with whoever said don't make any rash decisions yet. Is counselling a possibility for you both? It wasn't something that helped us TBH (one dreadful session, and both decided not to go back), but we both did a lot of soul searching and naval gazing and finally got through it. All I can say is be kind to yourself and allow yourself to feel angry and upset. I found the more I oppressed my feelings in order to just get on the worse it made things in the long run.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:30:16

Honesty is important to me. I have no issue with friends/family members etc who I know use porn. It's none of my business and clearly personal preference. There is always compromise in marriage. I need to know where he is in his head when he is honest with himself, and then I can decide how big a compromise it is and whether I can do it.

badtasteyoni Tue 14-May-13 11:30:38

I can understand exactly why you feel so betrayed - but I think you can take solace in the fact that he has been your 'rock' for the last 14 years and probably still is, and will be in the future.

You have very strong feelings about porn and yes he knows that, but maybe he doesn't share those views himself (which is his right, afterall?), so he (naively) thought he could just view porn behind closed doors and nobody would get hurt - which was obviously wrong.

Now it is out in the open he sounds as if he wants to deal with it and is sorry. IMO you should try to give him a chance to sort it out with you, with counselling, maybe blocking porn through your ISP, whatever it takes.

I would say try to separate the man you know from the porn and see it as one separate issue, rather than something that defines him, IFSWIM.

If he was a good man before, he hasn't suddenly stopped being one now IMO.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:32:40

You may well feel able to compromise or maybe a better way is that your actual principles may not be happily applied to a real life situation in the way they exist as abstract theory in your mind. But do know that unless you are both honest and comfortable with who you are together the relationship will grumble on unhappily. Probably just now is too soon for either of you to really know how you really feel.

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 14-May-13 11:32:53

"Where he is in his head?" I don't understand that, sorry.

In general how do you feel about masturbation? Do you do it yourself? Do you need any aids or prompts to achieve it? Do you accept that it's OK for him to masturbate even if you don't like him using porn for stimulation? Is that where a compromise could be found?

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:33:20

I know zombies. The really hurtful thing is that on Sunday I was actually horny for the first time in AGES (disclaimer: we have been having sex, just not much as i get fatigued very easily these days). We had sex and I really enjoyed it and thought he did too. To come home not 12 hours later and find him wanking over porn was a bit of a side swipe, to say the very least.

PeppermintPasty Tue 14-May-13 11:35:10

I think you need to take your time too. 14 years is a long history, but 3 years of this really pulls the rug from under you.

I'm glad he's taking it seriously, he need to work out how he's going to sort it out, so he doesn't lose you, or alienate even further. It's not your doing, please don't feel guilty.

PeppermintPasty Tue 14-May-13 11:35:29

*alienate you

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:36:12

And yes, Cognito, wanking is super fine with me. Once upon a time when I had the energy, I did like a quick enlivener every now and again. It's the degradation I have issue with. The imagination is personal, and involves no abuse of the vulnerable.
I mean if he is honest, can he be without porn? Is it a deal breaker for him?
As an aside, today I have realised that I use far too many commas!

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:39:26

OK, so just now you are very hurt. That will pass. It isn't unreasonable, it is just how it is and you need to have your feelings and get them out and then try to move forward after productively.

It is correct to say if he has really been your rock for so long he will likely continue to be if this is worked through isn't it? Very true.

Feelings first and then thinking and then sorting it out.

I know what you mean about what's in his head. You're wondering if he is actually not being honest with you/himself about his feelings on porn and you are needing him to really be honest so you can move forward.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:41:18

Exactly Offred. I need to know what the truth is, I'm not so good with the unsureness of it all.
And yes, I hope he will always be my rock.
And thank you for no-one saying LTB, it would not be what I wanted to hear.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:44:14

I think he'll need some time to think before he can be honest won't he? For him in the marriage so far he has been used to pretending and he'll need to unpick that first.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:44:29

Sorry badtaste, I missed your post. You are right of course. i must not see it as a definer of the man. And I suspect there is more than agrain of truth in the behind closed doors aspect too.
He is a good man. I just feel so very very gutted.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:47:28

Unpicking lying and pretending is going to take a while. Can I go and hide on a beach somewhere warm until it's done? The one aspect of my life that was dependable and solid amongst all the chaos and medication feels so unutterably broken. Warning-I may descend into melodrama for a while. blush

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:50:56

I think it would be good to have a period of melodrama tbh! It's what I always do. I also take to my bed for a while!

Some counselling for him would probably be good, you sound pretty clear on what you feel/need and what you could handle and I don't think you have a problem relating to each other by the sounds of it it is a problem he has with his own confidence in being himself. That is what it is with my husband.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 11:53:42

I am in bed on the sofa! Blanket, laptop, tissues and tea.
Melodrama is good for the soul, although I've given myself a massive weeping head ache so I won't be able to shout.
I feel quite a bit better for simply being able to talk about this on here. It doesn't seem quite the subject for a cup of tea with mum and most of our friends are mutual. Thank you all.

Branleuse Tue 14-May-13 11:57:10

he is still the person you thought he was and that he has always been.

did he know quite how strongly you felt?
had you discussed it or did you assume he knew your feelings were so strong on the matter?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 11:57:30

Sounds a good plan. Sure you'll be OK. You are coming across as a person who is going through a lot of crap but who is strong and able.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 12:04:43

Unfortunately Bran, he does indeed know how I feel. If there was ever a subject to ensure I get on my soapbox, human trafficking within the sex industry and the exploitation of the vulnerable is it.
Lots of crap is certainly true. I don't feel so strong and able at the mo, I'd quite like to crawl under a rock for a while or get admitted to hospital and be looked after again.

noseymcposey Tue 14-May-13 12:10:45

Sorry to hear that you are going through this taKsad. If it helps, then I had a similar experience with DP last year, although I had never strongly expressed anti porn views so different in that respect. I was much much more upset to discover what he'd been up to than I could ever have anticipated because of all the associated lying (ie. coming up to say goodnight if I went to bed first, but really just checking that the coast was clear etc etc) that made me so angry.

How you work through it is between you and DH but I just wanted to say that a year later we are fine. It is one thing that DP has done that is part of a lot of other good, kind a supportive things that he has done. And although there was a distance between us for a while, and I still don't trust him as unthinkingly as I used to, the bad stuff has been overwritten by a lot of good stuff.

It's a horrible thing to discover and it can be heartbreaking finding out that they aren't the person you think they are but all the good things about him are still true.

Take it one day at a time. If you want him near, have him near, and if you want space then make that for yourself too. You don't need to think too far ahead at this stage. I hope it gets better for you.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 12:14:57

Thank you for your kind words Nosey. I'm glad you and your dp are doing well now.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 14-May-13 12:24:31

Went through this with DH - not only was he using porn in secret, he then went onto to have an affair. At one point, we thought he might be a porn addict but when I made it clear that this issue is a deal breaker and that continued use of porn would result in the end of the marriage, he found it surprisingly easy to stop.

What also really opened his eyes was his research into the realities of the porn industry and how porn has a negative impact on relationships.

I think it would be interesting for you both to discuss how you both feel his use of porn has affected your sex life and how it has affected his views of sex and women. If you have DC, what if they caught him?

Internet porn in particular has an addictive quality which means the industry is now having to churn out more and more extreme forms of porn to satisfy jaded users who may have started out wanking to soft core porn.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 13:29:59

Hi Choc. I think it's a deal breaker for me too. The more I look at it, the more i can't see how it won't be.
Is it all ok with your dh now?

Lucylloyd13 Tue 14-May-13 14:24:29

"This man is my rock, he has been there and supported me solidly for 14 years. And please don't tell me I'm overreacting"

You are over reacting.

Complaining about his virtual entertainment when he has done all the practical things for you is harsh.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 14:37:51

If it's a deal breaker then fair enough but why should he move out, it seems that OP is the one with the problem.

I would also be questioning why your bloke felt he had to hide a perfectly natural thing from you. How controlling are you?

CajaDeLaMemoria Tue 14-May-13 14:41:58

Hmm... No, I don't think it is the OP.

She has strong feelings on port. She discussed them with her DP. Their marriage was based on knowing that pork would not be tolerated: they agreed that, it wasn't a sudden change.

Her partner started using it. He didn't tell her, he let her find out when she came home from work early. He is sorry. That doesn't change that he completely ignored her opinion though, despite knowing what it was and why.

He fractured the trust, so it's him that should leave, or try to fix this.

Boosterseat Tue 14-May-13 14:44:38

It’s not an overreaction if the OP has already spoken to her DH and expressed she finds it distressing and distasteful.

Perhaps if her DH had told her at the time that his opinion was different then they could have had an adult conversation about it and found a middle ground (if there was one)

OP has made her feelings clear and he has decided to give her 2 fingers and do it anyway, if he had gone out and shagged another woman but had supported her solidly for 14 years would it still be acceptable? Would it heck.

Relationships need boundaries about what is acceptable and what isn’t, if both parties can’t agree to these terms someone is always going to end up disappointed, hurt or angry. OPS Husband IMO doesn’t seem like he respects her feelings at all which I would imagine is as bad as the act itself.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 14:47:18

Yeah because people stay the same forever.

Lucylloyd13 Tue 14-May-13 14:49:11

I guess this hinges on whether you regard viewing porn as a hanging crime. I don't.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 14:51:21

She clearly doesn't respect him either, if she thinks he can't differentiate between porn on the internet and this bizarre notion of mental cheating.

What else is he not allowed to do? OP sounds very controlling, lets scratch beneath the surface a bit more.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 14-May-13 14:54:32

*Hi Choc. I think it's a deal breaker for me too. The more I look at it, the more i can't see how it won't be.
Is it all ok with your dh now?*

Yes, its been a long process though - the affair was the main thing but it all was part of a pattern of selfish and entitled behaviour (which gradually got worse over the years) and he really had to work hard (and is still working on) to address his flaws and issues.

I would be interested to know what he is like at home - do you both have equal amounts of child free leisure time? Equal amounts of spending money? Has he displayed other selfish behaviours?

The fact that he continued to wank off to porn for 3 years knowing your feelings suggest he needs to have a good look at himself and why/how he justified his use of porn.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 14:55:22

One question for the OP, if your DH sex drive has stayed the same and yours has gone down (illness etc no blame attached) what was your DH supposed to do?

You put him in an impossible position and yet you want to punish him for it.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 14-May-13 14:56:01

lucy - your comments are not helpful, OP is entitled to her views and if you have nothing useful to say, bog off.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 14-May-13 14:57:58

Rootin - Op has already said she is fine about masturbation hmm

Porn and wanking are NOT the same thing.

I couldn't live with someone who thinks its fine to have an orgasm knowing that the images are likley to be those of vulnerable and/or trafficked women. Yuk.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 14:58:14

Is an alternative opinion not allowed?

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:01:16

Not all porn contains trafficked or vulnerable women and to suggest so is utter bollocks.

The OP is thinking about splitting up her family based on a fairly tenuous notion.

Boosterseat Tue 14-May-13 15:03:22

True, not all porn contains vulnerable or trafficked women but if someone offered you a brew, you can choose from 10 cups but 1 might have poision in it would you bother with the tea? would you fuck.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:06:58

What a genuinely stupid analogy.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 14-May-13 15:10:35

Booster - its more like 3 cups than 10 cups sad so many women in porn come from vulnerable/difficult backgrounds and have been conditioned to think that their role is to provide sexual services sad

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:17:16

I'm sure that OP kids when they are crying their eyes out because mum and dad have split up will take great solace in knowing that their mum thinks their dad is no better than a sex trafficker because he did something that most men in the developed world do.

To be honest he's probably better off without her, 14 years up the spout, well done.

Boosterseat Tue 14-May-13 15:22:14

Rootin Id rather be stupid than cruel thank you very much.

Mad - Amazing how many times the porn word is coming up in the sickening recent murder trials but of course some people will always try to justify.

Well…if it helps them sleep at night.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:25:05

I'll say it again. The porn is not the issue. People have different feelings about porn. People are allowed to have their own feelings about porn for whatever reasons they like. It is irrelevant to the actual problem, that the op's husband has not been honest about something he knows is important to her. That is the problem.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:27:30

I ask again then, what was he supposed to do? Heap pressure on an ill woman because he isn't getting as much satisfaction as he needed or discreetly masturbate using a visual stimulus?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:29:08

OP doesn't sound controlling at all. It is not controlling to not want a relationship with a porn user either because you are concerned about the sex industry, the erosion of the concept of consent, the objectification of women or infidelity. You are perfectly entitled to set that as an issue which is important to you. She has been honest about her feelings on it from the start, he has chosen to be dishonest, probably as much with himself as with her. It probably will work out fine in the end but it is upsetting by any measure.

Just why are some posters so eager to insist that women must tolerate porn?

PeppermintPasty Tue 14-May-13 15:32:20

it's simple Rootin-he has a wank and uses his imagination. No one is being exploited. The op has already said what she does and doesn't object to. Plus she made it abundantly clear to him how important her views are.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:34:53

It's not necessarily about tolerating porn imho it's about understanding it from the male psyche point of view.

If the OP came on here and said my DP says I can't do X as it upsets him, you would all accuse him of being controlling and that she should LTB.

How is this any different?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:34:57

Rootin - porn and wanking are not the same thing. The porn is not as much the issue as the lying/pretending.

People don't have to have sex.

People don't have to wank.

People don't have to watch porn.

People don't have to lie about watching porn.

People may enjoy doing any of the above. Why perpetuate this crap that men are so blinded by their cocks that they have no self control or empathy. Honestly if I was very ill I would consider it strange that the stress of that had no effect on my DH who I imagine would be worried. If his main concern about it was having less sex I'd be creeped out by him.

It is perfectly possible, and indeed could be expected, that he could have handled this situation much better. He hasn't and it probably isn't irreparable but it is still upsetting, not specifically because it is over porn but because he was lying about something he knew was important to the op, it really doesn't matter what that was.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:36:02

The male psyche? Why is this even relevant... If such thing existed...

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:36:32

I sometimes wonder if any of the women on here even have partners never mind children as they don't seem to understand men at all or have a very biased negative viewpoint.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:37:50

No-one has said LTB, we all said it'd probably be fine because they've had a good marriage but it was an upsetting thing.

Are you actually reading the same thread? On this one the op thanked us for not saying LTB.... hmm

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:38:19

I think you're the one with the negative view of men tbh rootin.

PeppermintPasty Tue 14-May-13 15:38:53

Yes, what is this male psyche....

Lovecat Tue 14-May-13 15:40:47

Rootin you are actually being incredibly insulting to men.

They aren't jism machines who must be 'relieved' every so often or they'll explode. The vast majority of men are perfectly capable of self-control. The OP had made her position clear from the start and my heart goes out to her.

Your nasty 'let's dig a little deeper here' smacks of emotional voyeurism. and a wish to kick her when she's down, for your own bizarre agenda.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:41:53

If an op posted saying their DP was making it clear that they morally opposed porn and that it was a dealbreaker and the op was a porn user then MN massive would probably say you need to be honest and are maybe not compatible it you both feel strongly. They wouldn't say oh well what she doesn't know won't hurt her, you'll be alright as long as you don't get caught and if you do tell her you have a porn addiction.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:43:03

I admit there is a certain boys will be boys stance to my posts but I genuinely can't see what this guy has done that would mean I would upset my children and divorce a bloke who I really cared about. Neither would I want to be so controlling that he can't even crack one out without him being a sex pest.

I'd be annoyed if he felt he couldnt talk to me about it but he wouldnt be the first bloke to make a silly decision.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:48:32

You are the only one who has mentioned divorce rootin, everyone else said get some space to think and it'll probably be fine because everything else is good no matter which side of the porn thing they were on.

Wanking is nothing to do with the issue. The op is not concerned about wanking. Wanking and porn are different things.

You would be more than annoyed if he had lied about something which is important to you. Like cheating perhaps? Can you not put aside your personal feelings about porn and understand that the op's are different, respect that fact and advise based on the fact that to her this is an important issue, one he was aware of and one he lied about.

Something upsetting but probably won't lead to divorce in the end although could take some time to get over.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 15:52:27

What if the OP's grievance is irrational?

What if someone came on here and said my husband won't let me go line dancing because he thinks I will sleep with other men? You would say he is controlling and irrational wouldn't you?

The OP needs to decide which is more important, the irrational notion that all porn is bad and fucked up or her family.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 15:59:55

But objectively it isn't irrational. How people feel about porn is subjective. You don't know why she feels the way she does. It would be crass to ask and she has specifically asked people not to in her op so surely you could avoid the thread?

I'll tell you why I feel similarly though. Some reasons; 1. I have been very badly affected by men who took sexually abusive attitudes straight from porn, who used porn to sexually abuse me.

2. I am studying law and I feel that paying people in any way to perform sexual acts erodes the concept of consent by making sexual services contracts and by paying the actors and by portrayal of sex without consent.

3. Mainstream porn is frequently portraying abuse of women.

4. The porn industry treats the actors very badly very often.

5. I am concerned about people who can get pleasure in such a disconnected way and because of point 1 I do not feel able to trust them to understand consent which is very important to me now.

6. It negatively affects ability to perform sexually for a lot of men.

Boosterseat Tue 14-May-13 16:01:00

Well said Offred if it is acceptable to both parties in the relationship then there is no problem but when one is putting his own needs above the needs of the relationship and then lying about it, the OP definitely has the right to consider the future of the relationship.

OP - You obviously care deeply for your DH and i truly hope you can work through this and become stronger than ever. It is nothing do you with you, you have done nothing wrong your husband needs to find the reason why he gave himself permission to betray your trust and take the necessary steps to reassure and demonstrate to you it won’t happen again.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 16:04:27

You might not agree, you might believe 'boys will be boys' and it is not harmful or better than hassling a sick person for sex and those are your views to which you are entitled but mine are valid, considered views which are perfectly rational and able to be rationalised.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 16:14:42

Offred, I'm sorry about what has happened to you, clearly anything of that nature is vile. Though it has to be said there is some bias in your argument (naturally) and that does detract from it.

I too have studied contract law (as part of a business degree) and it is based on the notion of offer and acceptance, surely this is exactly what consent is?

I also don't agree with your other points. I fear we are going really off topic here though.

At the end of the day the OP has to decide which is more important.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 16:18:38

No, consent is completely different to contact. In many ways contract is entirely incompatible with the concept of consent.

The fact that there may be bias is irrelevant given it is not irrational, actually the influence of porn on sexual abuse of young people is studied and you aren't aware of the op's reason for asserting her personal boundaries over porn.

The other points are also objectively measured too. There isn't really any agreement or disagreement over them.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 16:19:01

*contract

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 16:27:51

"The other points are also objectively measured too. There isn't really any agreement or disagreement over them."

Utter rubbish. I look forward to your pointless reply that takes the thread further away from it's intention.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 16:28:12

Not that it matters hugely if the op's personal views were irrational. If the DH felt that then what he should have done is respect her and himself enough to say he didn't agree and they could have worked from there.

I think everyone is sympathetic to someone who is unconfident in themselves doing something like this but in the end it won't help the relationship to lie, it will come out in the end and when it does the lying will make it into a bigger issue than it needed to be. That's where they are now, it is a bit woman blamey to say the problem is that the op should have known boys will be boys.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 16:30:32

Yes they are. You might disagree with those concerns about porn but they are concerns about porn which people have different feelings on.

Either way, it's you taking the thread to your personal agenda; that all women should understand the male psyche which apparently involves and inability to empathise, furious wanking over porn and the right to make unilateral decisions about their partner's boundaries.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 16:32:47

The debate on porn is entirely irrelevant, the op asked that it not be debated because she had her reasons for her feelings. The issue for advice is how to handle finding out that your husband has lied over something that you asserted was a deal breaker at the start of the relationship.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 17:24:41

Wow. Evening all. Look what happens when you bugger off into real life and spend four hours talking to the only other person who actually knows what's really going on.
Thanks for fighting my corner Offred. Rational or not, that's the way we roll in this house. And we've had a really good chat this afternoon and there is a happy way forward for all involved.
FYI we were never EVER looking at divorce, or crying children, or poor iccle menz who don't have the right to watch women being fucked up the arse for a pittance but hey ho, who needs facts in the face of a random highjack, eh?
We were looking at the issue of deception and the pitfalls of lying and being found out, not the right to watch porn (which is all fine and dandy in other homes, but not here. Which my dh knows, and that is where it all went a bit wrong).
As you were.

CajaDeLaMemoria Tue 14-May-13 17:37:28

I'm glad you've spoken to him, TaKsad.

Good luck with the future smile

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 17:43:03

Oh, and sorry if that was a bit belligerent, but I'm not having a very good day.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 17:43:44

Thanks Caja, hopefully I'll be back to my usual name and posting inane crap all over the chat board in no time at all!

Boosterseat Tue 14-May-13 17:50:03

Glad it went well smile

I hope it works out for you.

RootinTootin Tue 14-May-13 17:53:17

I'm glad you've told him how it is. I wonder if you will come running back here if he does the same to you.

taKsad Tue 14-May-13 17:56:09

I was asking for help and advice Rootin, not to be told my dh is better off without me. Didn't your mother ever teach you that if you can't say anything nice you would be best off saying nothing at all?

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 14-May-13 18:04:39

Rootin -FFS, stop hassling Op.

OP - glad you've had a good chat and well done for not backing down smile

noseymcposey Tue 14-May-13 19:14:05

Glad you had a good chat with your DH taKsad

I think when someone fucks up, a lot depends on how they handle what they have done and I hope that your DH is showing himself to be decent.

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 10:03:52

So today is another day. My dh is going to counselling to address the latest in along line of addictive behaviours (smoking, drinking, drugs etc, all of which he has addressed and recovered from), this seemingly being another red flag in the long line of behaviours reacting to being bought up by two alcoholics and neglected as a child.
Whilst he clearly has a lot of stuff to work through I'm very pleased he's made this first step. Does anyone have any experience supporting a partner through psychotherapy?

themaltesecat Wed 15-May-13 10:09:30

Offred's on the money.

Offred Wed 15-May-13 10:16:09

No, no experience of that, not from that end of it anyway.

I think it will be tempting to pathologist this and it may well be pathological but probably don't go into the therapy with those expectations I would say. He needs room to explore himself and his feelings in therapy.

Offred Wed 15-May-13 10:17:09

How are you?

Lioninthesun Wed 15-May-13 10:20:56

There is a link somewhere to a study a man has done of the effects of porn on the brain - I hope someone can find it as I have failed! Will keep looking. It says that men who haven't grown up with the constant availability of porn (internet) can give it up easier than todays teens as it actually changes the shape of the brain. Their brain gets so used to the hits from serotonin (when they see a new woman every few mins) it is addictive. It can also be linked to depression for the same reason - the brain wants more and instantly. Erectile dysfunction is the ironic outcome for some massive over users.

I had several ex's who lied about using porn and to be honest I never really felt the same with them. I did ask both of them when we started going out and they chose to lie. When you see the unrealistic comparisons and know you will never do those things or compete it is really demoralising. You feel as though that is what they really want and you can't give it to them. This link (if I can find it) goes some way to explaining it really is just the thrill that it is so many women instantly that keeps men addicted; i.e nothing personal.

Lioninthesun Wed 15-May-13 10:23:58

Not that I am condoning it, just trying to make you feel a bit better.
I don't want a man for this reason - not porn per se but the whole lack of deep respect for women that I feel society has moulded our men into. I don't think I can trust them not to do this and worse again, my own sad story that if I am honest think started with an ex being addicted to porn sad

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 10:25:53

I feel a lot better today thank you Offred. We have talked for hours, and although I am still angry and upset I can see that this is still my dh. We're going to have a fair few ups and downs over the next few months/years but I want to support him to get the help he needs. I don't mean for the porn per se, underneath there is a great deal of damage that his frankly vile parents visited on him and his sisters. I can look at this objectively and see it as another aspect, he has such form for self destructive behaviour.
They say time is a healer, we shall see.

Lioninthesun Wed 15-May-13 10:27:17

Here you go - hope it helps a bit www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 10:27:18

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way Lion, and I also understand exactly what you mean. sad

Offred Wed 15-May-13 10:27:43

I think that sounds a good attitude as long as you know that you don't have to put up with anything you find too unreasonable just because he had a bad time as a child.

Lioninthesun Wed 15-May-13 10:33:42

It is just very sad all around really. I can't help but see men as kids in a sweet shop; all greedy and grabby without a thought in their little minds for real people. Really off putting.

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 10:44:17

That is an ace link. Thank you for sharing it with me Loin

Offred Wed 15-May-13 10:45:42

Lion - that isn't an inherent characteristic of men. It is socially conditioned and therefore common but there are good ones out there.

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 10:46:56

I won't be putting up with anything I don't like. I've made it very clear that he can have a second chance, but no more. It really is a deal breaker this time- any more porn means no more marriage.
He has installed accountability software on the only computer in the house and has no internet on his phone.
He admits that he knew how bad this would be if it blew up in his face and suspects that he was taking more risks in order to get caught.
Time will tell.

Mumsyblouse Wed 15-May-13 10:57:17

It does seem a bit odd that he would be doing this three times a week, taking that risk given he knew how strongly you felt about it- I also agree he probably wanted to get caught or at least found the risk exciting.

I have a simple rule- no porn in my house, I don't want to have to get stressed about the children logging into mine/partner's computer, or accidentally getting up in the night and seeing something (as happened to me as an older child,ugh). I wouldn't implode my marriage over it, but just remind my husband I like to live in a porn free zone, I don't think that's too much to ask.

Offred Wed 15-May-13 10:59:26

I suppose I was more thinking about what his own attitudes to porn might be when I said that. If he really isn't that bothered by it then you at least need to know that, both of you. It will be tempting to put it away in a box of bad behaviour. I think, well I know, that I can tolerate an intimate partner with a different view on some things as long as their is honesty, respect and discussion. Lying to themself or me and hiding it is not something I can handle.

Offred Wed 15-May-13 11:00:18

*there

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 11:00:28

Indeed Mumsy, not too much to ask at all.

taKsad Wed 15-May-13 11:05:07

Offred, it won't be tolerated. As I say, he has such form for addictive, compulsive behaviour. He accepts that, as do I. Now we have to work at putting the trust back into our relationship- I hate being deceived.

Lucylloyd13 Thu 16-May-13 15:26:33

I am quite surprised at how reactionary so many of the posts on this thread are.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own views, but some of the responses to porn here seem excessive.
At a basic level, what porn “is” can be contentious. Is a nude painting or nude statue porn? It may celebrate the female or male form.

Sex is natural, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with watching consensual sex , or erotic enjoyment, on film. At what point does Mr Darcy’s masculine firm grip of Elizabeth move from the erotically sensual to the pornographically unacceptable?

Clearly there are numerous areas of pornography which can give cause for concern, but in itself, is watching it a relationship breaker? If porn replaces a normal healthy sexual relationship then that is a problem, but it need not.

taKsad Thu 16-May-13 16:04:30

As I have said repeatedly Lucy, it is not the porn per se that I have the issue with. My dh has known for the last 14 years that it is not something I wish to have in my life, and that it's a deal breaker for me.
That may seem excessive to you, but we're all entitled to have a different opinion.
It's actually the trust/betrayal issue that I'm struggling with so much. He knew how much it would upset me. He did it anyway. He is obviously very sorry now, but presumably on some level only because he got caught and if I hadn't come home on Monday it would still be going on. Three years of lying is a lot to swallow for me, particularly at a time when I face so many other difficulties. I have trusted him implicitly for as long as we've been together. To find out that he was deceiving me hurts. A lot.
Sorry if that annoys you.

RootinTootin Thu 16-May-13 16:55:32

As Lucy says though, where do you draw the line?

I think you are controlling him, it's my way or the highway type attitude and I'm not convinced that's how adult relationships should be.

I'd love your hubby to grow a pair and tell you what you can and can't do.

taKsad Thu 16-May-13 17:09:02

You're not really very nice are you, Rootin?
You don't know me, you're making enormous assumptions about someone you know one dimension of (vaguely) on an internet forum, and you're also kicking a girl when she feels incredibly shit.

34DD Thu 16-May-13 17:13:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RootinTootin Thu 16-May-13 17:16:35

You feel shitty because you realise you are controlling a fellow adult who feels his only option is to lie about something because of your own selfish hang ups.

Offred Thu 16-May-13 17:20:37

I don't think making clear your feelings about anything right from the start of a relationship is putting restrictions on what someone can do though is it? The person doesn't have to be in the relationship, they aren't forced to lie, they could simply be honest and negotiate their own feelings/terms.

It is nothing to do with porn.

The terms of the relationship with taK were that porn is a dealbreaker, her dh chose not to talk about his real feelings, why is this her problem? It is irrelevant if some other people think porn is ok. Why are people acting like the dh had no option but to lie?

Offred Thu 16-May-13 17:23:07

And no-one needs to watch porn.

People need food, water and shelter, they don't need porn.

Offred Thu 16-May-13 17:23:49

And I think the point was he didn't promise not to watch porn he said he shared taK's beliefs...

taKsad Thu 16-May-13 17:23:51

I think it's probably best if I bow out now. This is online entertainment for most of you, but to me it's my life.
Ta-ta.

badinage Thu 16-May-13 17:26:21

Utter bollocks Rootin.

No-one has to lie about anything, ever.

People only ever lie in this situation to protect themselves from the consequences of the truth.

OP I'd either ask for this thread to be locked or deleted, because these threads always attract complete wankers who want the OP to feel like shit.

You had some great advice from some really sensible posters who actually listened to what you were saying. If you're feeling vulnerable and that you're being kicked by the porn losers, just ask MNHQ to help.

RootinTootin Thu 16-May-13 17:26:25

If the roles were reversed and it was a man telling a woman what she can and can't do in a supposed adult relationship there would be uproar on here. The hypocrisy is astounding, whether you agree with porn or not at the end of the day she is making rules for him and saying she will leave him if he doesnt comply. Shocking really.

Mumsyblouse Thu 16-May-13 17:26:35

Sex is natural, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with watching consensual sex , or erotic enjoyment, on film. At what point does Mr Darcy’s masculine firm grip of Elizabeth move from the erotically sensual to the pornographically unacceptable?

See, my own personal limit is very easy to define- not in my house, not around the children. Ever. I assure you if you walk in your dad watching porn videos rather than Pride and Prejudice, it will stay in your mind a long time.

Others might have different boundaries, not animals, not children. Fine, everyone sets their own.

I don't police what my husband does the rest of the time, nor check his phone, nor care what he does when he's away in terms of porn. I don't believe that it is always a case of 'will use in secret', some people may be compelled to use porn, others will if everyone happy with it, others are not that fussed if asked not to. Clearly it is more important to the OP's husband than she imagined and that has to be discussed.

Mumsyblouse Thu 16-May-13 17:27:34

And- when I say not around the children, obviously I don't mean not to watch porn around the children, that goes without saying, I mean don't bring it into the house where there are children who may go on a laptop or daddy's phone and see something very disturbing (to them) without the adult brain or feelings to process it.

Offred Thu 16-May-13 17:28:43

Rootin - where is she "making rules for him". He told her he shared her views. He lied.

RootinTootin Thu 16-May-13 17:29:52

"And I think the point was he didn't promise not to watch porn he said he shared taK's beliefs..."

People change though and now the guy is being forced to repress himself sexually by fear for his relationship.

Why couldnt the OP talk about why this had changed instead of making him feel bad over what to many is a perfectly natural sexual urge?

Mumsyblouse Thu 16-May-13 17:30:53

RootinTootin I completely disagree, I have loads of rules and I'm sure my husband does for me, things like: don't cheat, don't use prostitutes, don't go on the internet and search for new women/men friends- things that many women/men on these boards appear to think are perfectly normal behaviours. I think it's fine to spell out something if it is a dealbreaker for you- it might not be your dealbreaker, but who cares? If it is to the OP, and she needs to let her husband know that, so he can make his own choice (he's perfectly free to take his 3x a week wanking to porn habit off somewhere else if it very important to him, tragic though that would be really).

Offred Thu 16-May-13 17:32:29

Watching porn is not objectively "a perfectly natural urge". Subjectively some believe that and some don't.

What the op IS doing is discussing with her husband his feelings about porn.

Have you been reading the same thread as me?

I don't think caring about the fate of your fellow human beings is a 'selfish hang up' hmm

DP and I both used to use porn and now neither of us do. Having read about the realities of the porn industry it just stopped working - hard to get turned on once you know there's a fair chance you're wanking to abuse (unless you're really twisted in the head). I'd be really upset if I found DP using porn now because I know he knows all this and it would say to me that our basic values were out of kilter, not to mention the deception of course.

34DD Thu 16-May-13 17:54:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred Thu 16-May-13 18:25:43

Yeah, I agree the porn is not the relevant issue. It's a desire isn't it? Rather than a need.

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 16-May-13 18:44:40

*People change though and now the guy is being forced to repress himself sexually by fear for his relationship.

Why couldnt the OP talk about why this had changed instead of making him feel bad over what to many is a perfectly natural sexual urge?*

Rootin - READ this thread please, wanking is not a problem for OP. You do NOT need porn to wank.

I would be interested to know where you stand if pne was to tell a spouse/partner that using prostitutes and having affairs is a dealbreaker? or is that repressing one's sexuality? controlling? hmm

OP is ENTITLED to her views which are perfectly valid.

34DD Thu 16-May-13 18:58:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cloudpuff Thu 16-May-13 20:01:03

Rootin, its not a case of the op saying her dh cant do something, its not a case of porn being right or wrong, the issue is that her dh lied to her, lets take porn out of the equation, lets say op was a vegetarian for animal cruelty reasons, it would have been perfectly reasonable for her to not want a relationship with a meat eater, she meets someone who shares the same beliefs, the relationship advances, they fall in love, they get married blah blah, op comes home later to find dh eating a burger, a big part of their marriage is based on sharing the same principles and trust, and by prentending to share those principles and lying he has damaged a big part of their marriage.

You say people change, yes they do I agree, but what he should have done was speak to his wife when he felt the desire to partake in something he knows fully well the op disagree with, maybe if he had approached his wife three years ago they could have reached a compromise, or she could decide it was a deal breaker, but he didnt give her that option, he decided to go ahead knowing his wife would be hurt anyway, he knew what the consequences would be but chose to carry on and lie, its not the op who has been controlling here. She has every right to be upset, angry and hurt.

ageofgrandillusion Thu 16-May-13 20:21:01

I'm anti-porn personally but, having read this whole thread the issue to me seems to be not so much about the guy watching the porn but the controlling nature of the OP. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

Lioninthesun Thu 16-May-13 20:43:53

I am amazed at some of these later threads!
'Controlling' ? Asking a man not to waste time wanking to another woman? As has been stated, porn is not a necessity. It has real-life affects on emotional welbeing for many couples and is a rising cause of divorce. OP is clearly not a fan and her partner knew this. Even if this wasn't about porn, asking a partner about their ideals/culture/religion and beliefs are intrinsic to feeling part of a couple. If this changes or becomes unrealistic to one party then the couple need to re-asses their bond and talk about how to make it work, if that is what they still want.
Other than the emotional effects, there are very real physical effects on the brain, as per the link I posted before. Some people would rather their partners didn't put themselves at risk of depression and erectile dysfunction, but then, each to their own hmm
OP, I hope you can get this thread locked as it does seem to be attracting some oddballs.

Lucylloyd13 Fri 17-May-13 10:30:47

“it is not the porn per se that I have the issue with. My dh has known for the last 14 years that it is not something I wish to have in my life, and that it's a deal breaker for me.
That may seem excessive to you, but we're all entitled to have a different opinion.
It's actually the trust/betrayal issue that I'm struggling with so much. He knew how much it would upset me. He did it anyway. He is obviously very sorry now, but presumably on some level only because he got caught and if I hadn't come home on Monday it would still be going on. Three years of lying is a lot to swallow for me, particularly at a time when I face so many other difficulties. I have trusted him implicitly for as long as we've been together. To find out that he was deceiving me hurts. A lot.
Sorry if that annoys you.” taksad

I understand, and respect your feelings. I don’t think you are wrong.

My only question is whether it should be a deal breaker in your marriage? If so, that is fine.

theonlysaneinthevillage Fri 17-May-13 11:22:27

I'll never understand the 'you are controlling him' bs.

My Dp (stbx) has told me he would end it if i was to cheat. Is he therefore controlling me? Telling me what i can and can't do? Surely all relationships have boundaries, some are not massive and can be re-negoiated and some are deal breakers. What are deal breakers for some, are not for others.

I just think that those who have no issue with porn can't get their minds around it because it doesn't bother them. I just don't understand how you can't get that it bothers others?

It's like the empathy button is missing.

Lucylloyd13 Fri 17-May-13 12:02:35

This has been a fascinating debate.

The thread title is a little misleading, as the OP explains, this is about a broken agreement, one which was freely entered into. The gravity of that agreement is for those two parties only. It could have just as easily been a commitment not to dance on one leg singing "Agadoo". Porn just happens to be the deal in this instance.

The debate about how porn is dealt with within a relationship, and crucially how we deal with the quantum generational shift of our children now being able to access free porn, in one click, on their smartphones, are other issues.

taKsad Fri 17-May-13 20:04:15

Thank you Lucy. You're right, the title is misleading, but I was exceptionally cross when I wrote it. I'm now off to namechange as it's time to move on and stop being cross and ranty.
Thanks for all your support ladies thanks , it has helped me a lot to have people to talk to who can be rational and measured in their advice when all I really wanted to do was wail like an eejit.
Onwards and upwards smile

Lucylloyd13 Sat 18-May-13 10:32:35

taksad, there is nothing wrong with raning and wailing.
Good luck.x

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