Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

Falling pregnant is 90% a woman's fault

(189 Posts)
Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 18:29:30

Women CAN'T win!!!

REading through a thread on mn here where a single pregnant poster was pasted, interrogated judged and made answer for herself - I feel something like despair. (I don't know how she must feel).

Women don't 'put out' they're prudes and frigid or they have boundaries up around them. Or they're too fussy or too picky, or they're up themselves, or they're ugly, or they're spinsters. or feminists. What criticism are there for men who aren't in a sexual relationship.

if they have unprotected sex they are judged for 1) having had unprotected sex, and 2) if they get pregnant they're judged for not taking the MAP, and not having an abortion.

of course, if they had had an abortion they'd be judged for that too.

The original poster on the thread that has ME slackjawed works so she can't be attacked for seeking benefits. But some posters told her she shouldn't seek maintenance because it's not right given that the father wanted her to have an abortion. confused others told her she had a duty to seek maintenance on behalf of her child.

another poster told her that his taxes are propping up the running of the CSA. He seemed angry that the law and the state support a single woman in her unplanned pregnancy.

women can't win no matter what they do and what they choose. Unless they get married at about 27-33 to a nice man they'll be judged at some point. You literally can't move as a woman without being judged. ANd not just by men, but by women ... and that upsets me... :-(

kinkyfuckery Fri 12-Apr-13 18:36:19

So what's the thread title based on? confused

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 18:37:33

I remember this thread.

I think that poor kids need all the support they can get and some mum deciding that Hmmmm, times running out and I want a child is not really enough. But, on the other hand, it can be enough if DP gets their act together. But there are alot of ishoos with being a single parent of a child (for the child), mainly lack of influence by the missing other sex parent (because men and women are different), but this can be provided by the male family members of the DM.

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 18:39:19

I don't mean poor kids as in financially poor but poor kids, they are expected to be 'successful' with less than perfect background.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 18:42:29

I know the thread you mean and I agree attitudes are annoying, heaven forbid men might be responsible for their own fertility and any children they produce!

Poor little men who can't control their sexual urges... Aghhhh makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall!

Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 18:42:33

but those are issues to do with single parenting (which is tough enough ffs) without it being accepted as a given that an unplanned pregnancy is 90% the woman's fault. people say, oh well yeh, it takes sperm to fertilise an egg, but really she should have ... been on the pill, taken the MAP, had an abortion. since when was the MAP never mind an abortion a licence to allow men to take no responsibility for a pregnancy.

A man puts sperm into a woman's vagina, he doesn't get to call "sperm thief" when a woman gets pregnant. Well, the truth is, the fact is, maybe he DOES get to say that, because seems like at least a third of the posters basically feel, no matter what they logically understand, that it just seeeeeems like the woman's fault.. people are more comfortable blaming a woman.

Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 18:43:42

exactly, 5madthings, i feel like banging my head against a wall.

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 18:47:31

I posted on here on a similar topic, and was also surprised by some of the responses. I also commented on the more recent thread.

I'm totally baffled that we still appear to be living in the Stone Age, and think that it's a fantastic example of why feminism is still so very very much needed.

OhLori Fri 12-Apr-13 19:07:38

Its complicated Ginger, and inevitably political, but there is a lot of truth in what you say :-(

bestsonever Fri 12-Apr-13 19:09:21

I'll probably get a flaming for this but, I'd give females more than a 50% share in the blame. Given how drastically it changes a woman's life and her entire body for the rest of her life, it still amazes me how many 'accidents' occur. Never had an accident though ( just plenty of practice ;-)) so I guess I'd find it harder to understand. Doesn't mean I have a lack of empathy though as I try to ignore my wonder at why people can't act more responsibly.

Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 19:20:10

yes, feminism is still BADLY needed.

The only time I took a risk was when I thought a man was wearing a condom, but hmm he wasn't. He took it off cos he couldn't keep it up with a condom on. If I'd got pregnant I would have been labelled a sperm theif or that I'd tricked him!!!!! argh. He tricked me. Yet, if I'd got pregnant and kept it bestsonever would have judged me. If I'd had an abortion that would have made me incredibly sad (although i'm pro-choice) and a milliion more people would have judged me.

What about men bestsonever? why shouldn't THEY act more responsibly??????????/ ALL they have to do is put on a condom.

Twentytotwo Fri 12-Apr-13 19:23:04

'Given how drastically it changes a woman's life and her entire body for the rest of her life, it still amazes me how many 'accidents' occur'

Well, if you were looking for an example of judgemental bullshit ...

Twentytotwo Fri 12-Apr-13 19:26:04

The pill is not 100% effective.

Condoms split.

There is no method of contraception for vaginal sex that is 100% effective.

When they say it's 98% effective they're saying for every 100 woman using it 2 will get pregnant.

WorrySighWorrySigh Fri 12-Apr-13 19:50:11

In my opinion the big problem which leads to the blame-storm which occurs when there is an unplanned pregnancy is the woeful lack of understanding of the effectiveness of different types of contraception. If you are deluded enough to believe that condoms are a fool proof method of contraception then of course any pregnancy must be the result of a deliberate action by the person who is less unhappy about the pregnancy.

I have explained many times to my older teen that, biologically, sex is for making babies. Remember that then make contraceptive decisions on the basis that contraception can fail.

WorrySighWorrySigh Fri 12-Apr-13 19:53:18

DH and I didnt realise how ineffective the coil is. We were definitely trying not to have a third. She was born practically clutching the damn thing.

Januarymadness Fri 12-Apr-13 20:06:23

Actually I judge men more. If a woman ends up unexpectedly pregnant she HAS to deal with the consequences, whatever her choices. A man can just disappear off into the night and THAT is worth judging. Any man worth anything would A use condoms (at least at the beginning) to protect both of them from stds and pregnancy. and B face the consequences and support his partner should contraception fail.

bestsonever Fri 12-Apr-13 20:21:46

I don't judge, mistakes happen in life. Generally it surprises me how often, but on an individual level I would never judge.
It could equally be seen as feminist to take charge of your own fertility as some men seem to be crap in this area and can't be relied upon.
Great endings can occur from mistakes, I'm sure there are many women out there who think that, upon reflection their 'mistake' lead to the best thing ever and some men too for that matter. It is what it is.

bestsonever Fri 12-Apr-13 20:32:46

Absolutely to men acting more responsibly, I wish they would (my 9yr old knows what condoms are for and how important they are). Sadly, some men just aren't ( and can't seem to maintain an erection with one on - if it was the only way that sex could happen in life I'm sure many would find a way to maintain it).

NettleTea Fri 12-Apr-13 21:10:04

I agree the consequences for women from an unplanned pregnancy are far far greater than for a man. And as a single woman contemplating bringing up a child alone, the consequences are greater still in respect to quality of life, future career options, stigmatisation from the greater society. Until fairly recently the whole MAP/abortion thing wasnt even an option, so to trot out that its the womans responsibility to pop along and get rid is pretty abhorant to alot of women finding themselves in that situation no matter how 'pro-choice' they may have been before the actuality kicks in. Perhaps they dont feel that a child is a throw away thing. Perhaps they dont want the potential physical or psychological trauma of abortion, or dont realise that there has been a contraceptive failure until its too late to take the MAP. Abortion isnt an easy choice.
Men on the other hand could simply walk away. the only thing thats going to affect him is via his paypacket if thats his choice, they're not walked down the aisle anymore with a shotgun up their arses. Given the actual cost of raising a child his financial contribution is probabl small change anyway. If they dont want to acknowledge that a child could come from sex then they are bloody stupid.

Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 21:32:13

Yes, and there is a huge, huge middle ground between not wanting a baby and not wanting an abortion. When I smelt the coffee in an abusive relationship, at nine weeks pregnant, my x had pulled a clump out of my hair.... I didn't want a baby, I didn't want an abortion either though. It was very hard. I don't know how it can be that I didn't want a baby and I also did not want an abortion. what I wanted, was NOT TO BE PREGNANT

anyway................ I agree with pp, given the cost of raising children my x's financial contribution is minimal. And people sometimes act shocked that i'm not delighted to be given this sum of money, for nothing I think they see it. And sometimes this view from women who live happily with husbands who put five times as much in to the joint account every month. I am thinking of somebody in particular here of course!! a rl person.

Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 21:34:20

@ nettletea, yes, I'm pro-choice, but it still doesn't meant that an abortion is like dialling for a pizza or a plumber or something like that. I don't know WHY I couldn't do it.

The whole history of misogyny is about men's envy, fear and hatred of the fact that it's women who gestate and have babies. Societies have always been about seeking different ways to take the control over childbirth (not just the actual birth but the whole process of having children) away from women and give it to men instead.
Some progress has been made over the last century or so in most of the developed world, but there's still a vast undercurrent of rage and anxiety at the idea of women getting to choose whether or not a baby arrives irrespective of what men want.

NettleTea Fri 12-Apr-13 22:56:53

I couldnt do it either. And I am very pro choice. Just not for me. And I agree with SGB that it runs very very deep indeed. Probably as deep as when men first cottoned onto their role in reproduction. If anyone has read any of the Jean Auel 'Clan of the Cave Bear' series there is a very interesting shift in society based on this very fact........

jaywall Sat 13-Apr-13 00:02:15

Oh my, this....this! ...is solid...gold....im still laughing and i read it 5 minutes ago....brilliant.

^The whole history of misogyny is about men's envy, fear and hatred of the fact that it's women who gestate and have babies. Societies have always been about seeking different ways to take the control over childbirth (not just the actual birth but the whole process of having children) away from women and give it to men instead.
Some progress has been made over the last century or so in most of the developed world, but there's still a vast undercurrent of rage and anxiety at the idea of women getting to choose whether or not a baby arrives irrespective of what men want.^

happybubblebrain Sat 13-Apr-13 00:11:15

It is best to just go with the frigid prude option as it pisses men off the most. That way we win.

perfectstorm Sat 13-Apr-13 00:15:00

Ginger that thread was one of the most bullying, horrible I have ever seen on MN. The fact it was aimed at a poster in a vulnerable situation asking for support compounded that badly. Really, really depressing.

I feel badly if stressing that the money was for the child added to her pressure; it was intended to counter those huffing at the OP wanting "his" money for "herself". It's not for the woman, which is why spousal maintenance was always separate. It's for the kid.

Really horrible. And the OP has been driven away when all she wanted was some understanding.

NettleTea Sat 13-Apr-13 00:35:25

Why laughing jaywall? Seriously if you look back to the beginnings of written history and the first laws created in ancient Mesopotamia a huge proportion were to do with the control of women and their reproduction... It's all to do with ownership and making sure you are only paying to raisie the product of your own loins. Only now it's come back and bitten the men in he arse with DNA testing, and they are being forced to pay for kids that they may not have chosen to have. Women have been forced into reproduction which they may or may not have chosen for millennia, now they finally have a bit of control over their own bodies and the poor men don't like the fact that there may be a downside to a lot more available sex than in the past.
Sex makes babies. No form of contraception is 100% reliable. If pregnancy happens and you have been careless it's both parties responsibility. If you tried to prevent it but it went wrong, it's bad luck but still not an enormous surprise, and it's still both people's responsibility. Automatically assuming a woman will abort is unacceptable. At least a man still has the choice to walk and only pay a nominal sum, a woman has a lifelong commitment. She is far less likely to make any decision lightly.
Falling pregnant cannot be 90% the woman's fault, it's got to be 50:50 as even if she lied about being on the pill if he wants to ensure that he doesn't father a child he needs to make sure he is using contraception too, and even that might fail. However the choice to remain pregnant could be said to be up to 100% the woman's 'fault' ( though I would say, choice)

NettleTea Sat 13-Apr-13 00:37:04

And I agree that I was horrified by the replies to that poor girl

Polyethyl Sat 13-Apr-13 03:13:06

I agree. Some of the replies on that thread were abhorrent. I was suprised mumsnethq hadn't done some deleting.

I found it remarkable that at a time when mumsnet was ridiculing Amanda Holden for saying that mumsnet can be judgey and bitchy - there was a thread which was filled with cruel jugeyness and bitching.

And no, the 'frigid prude option' is not the answer, because women like sex, too. We shouldn't have to refuse PIV sex that we actually want just because we will be slutshamed if an unplanned pregnancy occurs. Effective contraception (or, at least, reasonably effective contraception) has been one of the great steps forward in human society.

But what we really need is the right to safe abortion whenever we want or need it, without having to have anyone else's 'permission'.

Men can control their own fertility by: using condoms, having vasectomies or indeed not having PIV sex but getting orgasms via other methods.

lemonstartree Sat 13-Apr-13 10:33:30

Look, contraception WORKS is you use it properly > 99% of the time. And I speak as a health care professional and as a woman who had an unplanned baby. Poorly used or no contraception results in pregnancy, At that point the CHOICE about whether to be a parent IS effectively taken away form the man. So we need o teach or son's that a) use of contraception themselves is ESSENTIAL if they do not wish to be a parent and b) sex may lead to parenthood even of they ARE careful...

YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes Sat 13-Apr-13 10:43:47

I have to point out how dangerous it is to list all the bad things done or said and 'prove' that they are the only things said. Women are portrayed as powerful, sexy, intelligent, creative, sexually confident, clever, funny, sparkling etc all the time.

Women who enjoy sex are encouraged, women who have few partners are seen as chaste and disciplined or loyal if they are in a relationship.

Why go mental by listing all the negatives?

Men could do the same 'if I only have one partner I am seen as weak, unmanly and unattractive, if I seek more I am sleazy, if I have no partner I am a dangerous loner or potential abuser, if I am passionate in meetings at work, I am pegged as aggressive and abusive, if I am not passionate in meetings I am seen as weak and chinless if I am challenged and don't fight I am a wimp, if I am challenged and I fight I am childish and out of control, if I play by the rules I am a tedious bore, if I don't I am a man-child'

This two-sides thinking and competition drains all our energy and encourages people to keep reaffirming how disadvantaged they are in some kind of competition of the miserable - surely we can be better than this??

Oh FFS, when men are the ones who only earn 70% of the money women earn, when two men a week are murdered by their female partners, when men are routinely sexually abused by women and then blamed for being victims, when men are barely represented in positions of power... well maybe then we can listen to a bit of 'poor men, boohoo, how dare nasty women not listen to and obey them over pregnancy?'

YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes Sat 13-Apr-13 11:04:32

I don't get that way of looking at the world - its a bit like 'why should I wear a seatbelt when millions of people starve to death, AIDS still has no cure and breast cancer still kills many women'

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 11:11:43

A man and woman are equally responsible for a pregnancy but as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception. If I was a woman I wouldn't want to rely on somebody else when it was me that has to deal with the consequences.

In men's defence we get very little say in an unplanned pregnancy, if a man thinks a woman should have an abortion he gets no say if she keeps the baby and is expected to pay maintenance. If a man wanted a woman to have the baby but she decided to have an abortion he has no say in that. It seems men have no rights apart from the right to pay.

those are the facts of life tehenemy - surely they are no surprise to you? a baby is formed in a woman's body therefore the decision of whether to keep a pregnancy or not is up to her.

you of course have the choice not to have sex, to be very, very careful in having sex etc. those facts of life are a given. if they disturb you so much either don't have PIV sex or do so very carefully re: wear a condom AND withdraw before coming/don't ejaculate via PIV sex. lots of options for you.

you want to complain that a woman calls the shots when a pregnancy occurs and still declare women should take responsibility for contraception. that's bizarre.

it's like newsflash - women get pregnant. sex is the direct cause of pregnancy. once pregnant it is down to the individual woman to choose what to do with her own body.

do men really need this explaining?

sex makes babies. if you don't want babies and you don't want any element of risk or to end up in a situation where a woman has a choice that you don't then don't have sex. otherwise take calculated risks accordingly - re: contraception, where and when you ejaculate etc. no one forces you to ejaculate in a woman's vagina and you have been fully educated as to what can happen if you do.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 12:12:32

Swallowed, I don't see what's bizarre about that, if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant don't you think she should take care of herself and use contraception rather than rely on someone else? We've all heard stories of men putting holes in condoms and women who lie about being on the pill for that matter. Yes I know they are the facts of life, thanks for pointing that out, I was just pointing out it didn't seem very fair in my opinion, that's if you have no objection to me having an opinion.

perhaps you could petition mother nature theenemy? tell her it's NOT FAIR! stamp your feet a little.

won't stop you getting someone pregnant though.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 12:24:34

I can recall a man going to court when a woman decided to have an abortion, (I could google it but I can't be bothered), the man said if she was willing to have the baby he would happily bring the child up on his own. The court decided he should have no say in whether she kept the baby or not, however if she had kept it against his wishes the law says he must pay. To me that's not fair, your stupid post won't change my mind about that.

HedleyLammarr Sat 13-Apr-13 12:26:38

Theenemy - be careful, these girls have rallied together and now bringing in arguments such as murder, sexual abuse and earning power ffs

"SolidGoldBrass
Oh FFS, when men are the ones who only earn 70% of the money women earn, when two men a week are murdered by their female partners, when men are routinely sexually abused by women and then blamed for being victims, when men are barely represented in positions of power... well maybe then we can listen to a bit of 'poor men, boohoo, how dare nasty women not listen to and obey them over pregnancy?"

It's turned historical. Leave em' to it

HedleyLammarr Sat 13-Apr-13 12:27:40

Historical = hysterical

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 13:06:03

theenemy are you seriously suggesring a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy she doesnt want so she can give up the baby to the father once its born. why should she put herself through the risks of pregnancy and childbirth?

No one is saying women shouldnt be responsible for her fertility just that men need to take EQUAL responsibility ie dont just rely on her taking the pill. It shouldnt all be on the woman when it takes two to make a baby. Women can be responsible for their fertility and men can equally be responsible for theirs.

We know when it comes to abortion its a womans choice and rightly so because it is her body!

Men need to make their choice at the point they decide to have sex or not and use contraception or not. If you have sex there will always be risk you cant eliminate that 100% therefore you decide to have sex knowing what level.of risk you are taking and that if there is a pregnancy you have to support that chikd. Simply having to pay maintenance that doesnt even cover the bare minimum costs is quite an easy option tbh. Particularly when they can still walk away and do no practical parenting at all.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 13:12:53

No a woman shouldn't be forced to go through a pregnancy, but it is true once a woman is pregnant a man has no say and no rights as to what the outcome is, which isn't fair. I don't have an answer as to how we could change that either, my point is while the op says women can't win, things aren't so easy for men either.

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 13:18:38

But a man knows this when he has sex. Its not a suprise to him.so by choosing to have sex he is choosing to be responsible for any children.

A woman having sex also accepts she may get pregnant and then has to deal with eithet the physical and emotional effects of an abortion or preg/birth and then looking after a child. Its not like abortion or preg/birth are easy options. In contrast having to pay towards a child is small fry tbh.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 13-Apr-13 13:22:19

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 12:24:34
I can recall a man going to court when a woman decided to have an abortion, (I could google it but I can't be bothered), the man said if she was willing to have the baby he would happily bring the child up on his own. The court decided he should have no say in whether she kept the baby or not, however if she had kept it against his wishes the law says he must pay. To me that's not fair, your stupid post won't change my mind about that.

The court will have decided that it would be barbaric to force a woman through a pregnancy and childbirth against her will. A woman must be allowed autonomy over her own body, and there are still risks involved in pregnancy and childbirth to the woman's physical and mental health. The thought of a woman undergoing a forced pregnancy and childbirth, or an abortion for that matter, against her will fills me with horror.

MadCap Sat 13-Apr-13 13:22:34

5madthings has put the argument forward more eloquently than I ever could. Especially the last two sentences.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 13-Apr-13 13:23:33

Which thread was this, OP? Sounds awful.

MadCap Sat 13-Apr-13 13:24:31

I was specifically talking about her post at 13:06.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 13:25:26

5madthings, your right women have options, men have none, my point exactly.

HedleyLammarr Sat 13-Apr-13 13:29:14

^ this

so how does that mean that women should be responsible for contraception? given men have no say over the outcome of an unplanned pregnancy isn't that all the more reason to teach our sons that they need to be extremely careful about sex and contraception?

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 13:39:59

It has nothing to do with contraception, it's a separate issue, I just said if I was a women who didn't want to get pregnant I'd look after contraception myself and not take the risk of relying on someone else. I don't see why that's so difficult to understand.

expatinscotland Sat 13-Apr-13 13:42:47

Before MN, I must admit, I hadn't heard of so many 'accidents' in real life experience.

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 13:48:23

Men DO have option to use contraception or not or to have sex or not.

Yes women have the further option if an abortion but its not exactly an easy option.

So women have one further option, both have the option to use contraceotion or to not have sex. Women have to pay the ultimate physical price of having an abortion or going through preg or childbirth. Neither are easy options unlike a man who CAN walk away. He may still have to pay but he can walk away from any practical responsibility. Having the responsibility of paying maintenance is the consequence a man takes from choosing to have sex.

A woman who chooses to have sex accepts thebconsequences will be an abortion or preg/birth AND the financial.cost.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 13:51:59

5madthings, yes men have those options! The op said women can't win, I said its no picnic for men either, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 14:07:49

No not a picnic for men but the financial.cost is small compared to yhe physical cost for women and the fact that women are judged more than men and then even more so once they have a child.

ItsYoniBusiness Sat 13-Apr-13 14:07:55

I am amused by the men saying women should take responsibility for contraception as they are the ones who get pregnant but also complaining that they get no say once a woman is pregnant. If its the woman that gets pregnant and that makes it all her responsibility then NEWSFLASH she gets more say in the matter. If men got more involved in responsibility at the point of using contraception, they wouldn't have to worry about not getting a say in the pregnancy.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 14:17:01

Itsyoni, what exactly is amusing in saying a woman who doesn't want to get pregnant should use contraception? Seems like common sense to me. when I was a younger man I always used contraception because I didn't want children and I wouldn't trust someone else to take care of it.

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 14:22:45

I've just name changed but feel free to read my post properly. My point was that you can't have it both ways. If you want the woman to take all the responsibility for contraception, don't be surprised or disgruntled when that extends to having all the choices about a surprise pregnancy.

Sunnywithshowers Sat 13-Apr-13 14:41:59

What Berts said.

I'd like to point out to some of the people above that we don't have abortion on demand in this country,

a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped

(Taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom)

You may notice that abortions are not given because 'the person who provided the sperm doesn't want to pay for the child when it's born'.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sat 13-Apr-13 14:42:17

lenonstartree - I have a small bone to pick, the coil didnt work for me. I didnt use it wrong, it wasnt put in wrong, it didnt fall out it just didnt work. Fortunately I was (and still am) in a stable marriage. We were able to take an unplanned pregnancy in our stride.

You dont hear about accidental pregnancies in RL because people on the whole dont choose to shout about it to friends and family. Once a pregnancy is discovered decisions are made. You will only tend to hear about it if there is a vocal challenge to the decision.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 14:43:12

Read my posts properly, nowhere did I say only women should take responsibility for contraception, not in my last post, not in this thread, not on this site, not ever, I'll repeat it for the third or fourth time. If I was a woman, I'd take care of contraception myself not rely on someone else because I wouldn't trust them.

Just as in my days as a single man I took care of contraception because I wouldn't trust a woman. I hope that clears that up.

Men have no say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies, I think that is unfair but I don't advocate putting a gun to a woman's head and forcing her to go through a pregnancy she doesn't want or having an abortion. Short of drawing pictures I don't think I could make that any clearer.

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 14:47:53

Here:

A man and woman are equally responsible for a pregnancy but as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception. If I was a woman I wouldn't want to rely on somebody else when it was me that has to deal with the consequences.

Second page of this thread, "as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception".

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 13-Apr-13 14:50:09

Men have no say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies, I think that is unfair but I don't advocate putting a gun to a woman's head and forcing her to go through a pregnancy she doesn't want or having an abortion.

Well that's something I suppose hmm

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 13-Apr-13 14:51:07

Itsyoni, what exactly is amusing in saying a woman who doesn't want to get pregnant should use contraception?

Because it seems to have escaped your notice that contraception is never 100%. Not wanting to get pregnant and using contraception is still not a cast iron guarantee that a pregnancy will not occur. The pill - it can fail if not used properly, or other medication interferes with it - I've known a few people over the years who have fallen pregnant when they fell ill while using it. Or it just doesn't work for some people. The coil - it can slip/move/fall out of position and fail to prevent pregnancy. Or it just doesn't work for some people. My cousin had her 3rd baby despite having had the coil fitted. Condoms can split. MAP can fail if not taken quickly enough - unplanned pregnancies happen despite taking the necessary steps to prevent pregnantcy My DD is here now because of an unplanned pregnancy. Split condom, failed MAP and her dad telling me that he couldn't actually have kids before we had sex. And yet I still ended up pregnant. I knew before I had sex that there was a risk of me getting pregnant because that's just a fact of life - sex = baby. At the back of my mind I never believed I would get pregnant, especially given the precautions we took, and my ex telling me he was 'firing blanks'. It just so happens that I fell pregnant despite not actively trying to get pregnant and taking the necessary steps to prevent pregnancy. But, I was mature enough to accept that this was a consequence of having sex, and I accepted my part in that. I took responsibility and so did my ex. The day after I told him he put in for a transfer and moved to another country, because he too took responsibility for his part in creating the pregnancy which resulted in my brilliant DD.

It's the measure of the person how they react and deal with their own personal responsibility when it comes to something like creating a pregnancy despite the efforts not to, or the lack of effort not to in some cases. I personally have an extremely low opinion of anyone who reacts by walking away, refusing to accept the consequences of their actions. The fact that a woman has some, very difficult, additional options after the pregnancy has happened, does not absolve any man of his responsibility for the actions he took while he still had a choice in what he did and how he did it.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 13-Apr-13 14:57:48

Men have no say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies

But they do have a say in how that pregnancy came about. They can choose to not have sex. They can choose to use a condom. They can choose to get the snip. They can choose non PIV sex. They can choose to step up and take responsibilty for the consequences of having had sex which resulted in pregnancy, or they can choose to walk away. Men have plenty of say in their own lives and how they conduct them.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 14:58:21

Berts, you've just copied and pasted what I just said in my post, why? I do think if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should take responsibility for contraception, she is the one who will get pregnant. Why is that so difficult to understand?

You really think if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should just say well I'll let the man take care of it? If he has put a hole in the condom or it comes off, or something else goes wrong she'll just live with the consequences?

Like I said, when I was single I didn't want children, didn't feel I could fully trust partners, women lie about being on the pill or forget to take them etc, so I took the responsibility and didn't rely on anyone else.

PuffPants Sat 13-Apr-13 14:58:34

It's very easy not to get pregnant. If you really don't want to.

Pill plus condoms. Belt and braces. I would never have relied on one method alone back when getting pregnant would have been disastrous for me.

Your body, your pregnancy - his baby too - but a much bigger impact on the woman so you take care of yourself.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 15:01:38

Bunch, yes men can use contraception, choose not to have sex etc etc etc. I don't deny any of that, I just said when an unplanned pregnancy happens men have no choice in the outcome and that seemed unfair. It's just my opinion. Why it led to such an overblown argument I'm not sure although I'm beginning to think its because I'm a man.

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 15:06:09

<face palm>

Your post also complains about men having no say in unwanted pregnancies. I was pointing out that your comment that women should be the responsible person in regards to contraception needs to be reconsidered if you are then going to complain about men having no say in a pregnancy.

And where did I say a man should take care of it? I was pointing out that its not just the woman's responsibility like your post suggested. Both adults are equally responsible for ensuring contraception is used if they don't want a baby. A woman should ensure she uses the level of contraception she wants to but so should a man. It shouldn't all be down to one or the other like the part of your post I quoted suggests.

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 15:08:30

No one is saying women shouldnt use contraception. We are saying BOTH men amd women are responsible for their own fertility.

It may not seem fair that a man has no choice re abortion but it is the womams body so it has to be her choice. A man knows if he has sex and a woman hets preg that she may keep.the baby.

Its not fair that men can just walk away and ignore the responsibility of their child and then they still moan about paying a pittance for child maintenance. (i dont mean all men btw thankfully there are many great men out there) but to have sex and then try and abdicate responsibility because you didnt want a child is crap.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 13-Apr-13 15:10:06

Am always amazed too at the number of accidents you read about on here. Use the pill and condoms together and there is very little chance you will end up pregnant. Protects both the man and woman then. There are lits of methods that can be used together.

When DS is old enough to have the talk, I will ensure he takes full responsibility for himself regardless of what the woman tells him. Many women lie about contraception or dont use it properly.

MysteriousHamster Sat 13-Apr-13 15:11:44

Theenemy don't you think it's significant that there is NO ANSWER to the dilemma you are posing. It's unfair that men can't choose, but you don't want to force a woman into choosing.

Because you can't compromise over a foetus that already exists, choice MUST be given to one person, do you see?

It's unfair in the way that life is sometimes, but not unfair by the woman. It's in her body. She must make the ultimate decision. It's the way things are.

What I think some men want, is not for them to force women, not for women to decide, but for women to agree with them.

They get upset if women have a different opinion.

And you know if I was a man and my girlfriend got pregnant due to a contraceptive failure, the situation might be frustrating if we wanted different things. But ultimately I'd hope that I would accept it, because the alternative is forcing your will on another person's body.

MysteriousHamster Sat 13-Apr-13 15:14:28

Women get pregnant.

Men don't get pregnant.

You can't have a baby OR abort a baby without it affecting the woman's body. There is no compromise. You can't have half a baby.

Consequently, the woman gets to choose.

Don't you see that if a woman chooses an alternative pathway to you, she is not being mean, she is not being unfair, she is simply disagreeing with you? It would be nice if everyone agreed on the right time to have a baby or on the right to abort but life isn't that simple.

Not sure why I'm explaining this again, just thought it was worth a try.

brettgirl2 Sat 13-Apr-13 15:15:52

What amazes me is that anyone male or female, on the pill or not on the pill, sterilized or not would have casual sex without using a condom. I hear they can split but its never happened to me and I suspect most times people claim condoms have 'failed' its because they stay in the wrapper.

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 15:16:25

happy i am.not suprised because even when used properly contraception isnt 100% and mnet is a forum.to.get support. You dont get women seeking support because they have a planned preg. Just like we dont get many threads with people saying how great their husbands are. Its used by people seeking help and support when things are difficult etc. Peoole post to get advice on problems not not when life is fine and dandy.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 15:16:51

Berts, to me contraception and the outcome of an unwanted pregnancy are separate issues. What if a couple are very unlucky, she's on the pill, he wears a condom, they both fail, it's possible. He could have no say and no rights, in the outcome of that pregnancy.

I think that's unfair but I have no answer as to how it could be made fair either.

Yes I agree with other posts that have said if a man takes no responsibility for contraception he has nobody to blame but himself and its just tough that he gets no say.

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 15:20:08

Its not unfair its biology and he can still walk away and have no practical role in raising the child. So gets off lightly by just having to pay maintenance which he knew he would have to if there was a pregnancy.

Both parties know the risks and consequences.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 15:22:27

Mysterioushamster, I agree with you, it's unfair in a way that life is unfair and nothing can really be done about it.

It just leads to a feeling that the only right men have is the right to pay, whatever their opinion on an unwanted pregnancy is.

And yes I know some men don't do that and some walk away, I wouldn't dream of defending them.

hairtearing Sat 13-Apr-13 15:24:52

I think I know what thread you're referring too , and as much as some comments about maintenence and abortion were harsh,

I don't think anyone should be pressured into an abortion or go without financial support btw.
But if its the thread I'm thinking of I think people were making a general point about why people continue to sleep around with people who are completely unpleasant, unprotected its not misogyny just curiosity as it doesn't sound much fun.

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 15:29:19

Theenemy, my point was if the woman is responsible because she is the one who gets pregnant like you suggested, there could be far more unwanted pregnancies than if they both act responsibly with regards to contraception.

I understand what you mean about unwanted pregnancies when both parties took contraception but even then, the possibility of a baby is always there. Paying for a baby that they haven't chosen to keep may be annoying for a man but its a responsibility he signed up for when choosing to have sex.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 15:39:26

Berts, think we're pretty much in agreement then but it was hard work getting there. smile

expatinscotland Sat 13-Apr-13 15:45:12

I agree, Puff, but there will be loads of folks who say they cannot use the Pill. Then get a copper coil and use condoms.

Would have been a financial disaster for me and there was no real welfare system where I was from so I always used a belt and braces approach, too, because abortion wasn't for me.

Loads of accidents on here and failures.

expatinscotland Sat 13-Apr-13 15:47:59

'Its not fair that men can just walk away and ignore the responsibility of their child and then they still moan about paying a pittance for child maintenance. (i dont mean all men btw thankfully there are many great men out there) but to have sex and then try and abdicate responsibility because you didnt want a child is crap.'

We have a system that does this, a system that allows people to walk away from their children and not pay adequately for their support.

...so I took the responsibility and didn't rely on anyone else

Umm isn't that what this is about. You chose to actually take responsibility, like men should if they really don't want to risk it.

And women make the choice. Unfair? Maybe, but it's one of the only issues where the choice is the woman's only because of biology. But it's something you should be fully aware of before you go into a sexual encounter.

Oh and I got pregnant on the pill. Took it at the same time every fucking day, wasn't sick etc, was a few months away from going to a very good uni & was devastated . What did the bloke do? He decided I planned it, spread this opinion round our town & was an in&out dad til very recently when the penny dropped for some unknown reason.

I didn't have an abortion, despite being pro-choice, as once I looked into it I knew I couldn't face it. You can't undo a pregnancy, you can only end it.

(I felt the need to post as I cannot believe how many women are suspicious of other women...We don't even need men to point the finger at us when we have other women to do it for us) hmm

5madthings Sat 13-Apr-13 16:03:36

expat yes we have a system that supports these children (and their mothers) but what is the alternative? We can't just leave and ignore them, simply because its not fair on the child.

We do need to address the issue of parents who abdicate responsibility if their children (and I say parents because some women do it as well) but how do you deal with that issue. I don't think it benefits the child to have a parent in their life who doesn't want to but they do need to be made to be responsible at least financially.

I think both individuals need to think of the risk before entering into sexual relations. Even with todays contraception, failures still happen and always will happen as nothing is %100 at preventing a possible pregnancy.
I think when a new relationship or a one night encounter the pill & condoms would ensure both parties are taking responsibility for sexual health as well as a pregnancy preventative.

But sometimes swimmers slip the net and i do think its very wrong when a man walks away or doesn't pay his way as some men (not all men) seem to think the blame should all lie with the woman, when clearly it takes sperm & an egg to create life.
It does anger me that a minority of men think that its as simple as the woman going for an abortion, life isn't like that and abortion is something that takes thought and brings with it so many regrets.

^ I do think some people think it's a nice tidy thing that has no emotional impact...

My bf at the time said (two seconds after I told him) 'it's ok...we'll sort it'. He was talking about abortion. He still asked why I did it until about a year after DS was born.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 13-Apr-13 16:16:52

I felt the need to post as I cannot believe how many women are suspicious of other women...We don't even need men to point the finger at us when we have other women to do it for us

I agree yonikeepr - apparently no condoms ever split/tear or are faulty in any way at all. No one ever has any issues with taking the pill i.e. side effects, or that it just doesn't work. The coil doesn't ever fail, move/slip/fall out of place. The MAP works every time, never fails. There is no good reason to not have the implant (cos they work 100%) or the injection (ditto 100%). No one should ever really question the lengths you must go to as a woman to prevent pregnancy i.e. long term health issues are nothing to worry our pretty little heads about, because you must, must must do everything you can to prevent a pregancy or you are delibarately trying to get pregnant. If you are not a belts and braces sort of gal, you are actively trying to trap some poor bloke get pregnant.

hmm

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 16:20:30

yes yonikeeper, even if over riding emotion is relief after an abortion, it would still have an impact (varying in degree)

theenemy seems to be saying that women should be/ought to be more responsible.... (BUT he doesnt trus them) and he would like men to have more say in the outcome of pregnancy. hmmm more responsibility for women and fewer rights. i hope that is not typical of male opinion. altho i fear it is.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:27:42

Ginger, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make things up and put words into my mouth, I don't SEEM to be saying anything. I said men and women equally responsible for contraception, women and men should take care of their contraception and not rely on each other to do it for them. I didn't say men should have more say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies, I said they had no say, unfair but that's the way it is.

you said women should be responsible for contraception. do we really need to copy and paste your own words - it's a pain trawling back through the thread.

and i quote, A man and woman are equally responsible for a pregnancy but as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception.

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 16:34:34

I already did that swallowedafly and he ignored it other than to say "why did you copy and paste?". Brick wall.

Theenemy you clearly have your mind made up.

So why are you still here, on a site that has plenty of women who already have to deal with the same shit storm off their estranged exes/their families etc? i don't think you've really thought about the impact of what you're saying & where you're posting, sorry.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:39:18

Swallowed, are you being deliberately obtuse? I've already repeated myself on here at least half a dozen times, others seem to understand what I said so why can't you? Copy and paste away to your hearts content. I see no further use in debating the issue with you.

Well it is what you said, is it not? hmm
Or did you jumble your words there

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:42:51

Yoni I'm beginning to think that what you really want is me to leave because I'm a man. I don't have any children, i havent left anyone to deal with my shit, I'm not responsible for the actions of the exes who have left women to deal with their shit.

Oh for the love of god...I do not care about your gender.

Having one bad ex behind me does not make me a man hater.
You sound narrow minded at best to think so.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:44:24

Yoni, read what I said, not one line picked out in isolation.

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 16:45:12

theenemy. i have read your posts. im not putting words in your mourth. you did say that women should take more responsibility for not getting pregnant (altho u said u yourself r responsible cos "women lie"). you also think it is unfair that men have no control over whether women abort or not. that very definitely boils down to u wanting women to take more responsibility but have fewer rights. if u cant see that that is what u have said then it is u that is obtuse.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:45:22

Yoni, you asked why I was here it seemed a fair question to ask as that was the impression I got.

I do care about the attitude you have and the fact that it's offensive and a general PITA for women who've had this happen to them who're on here. I'm not the only one, as shown above

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:46:36

Ginger I know what I said, are you saying women should not take responsibility for getting pregnant?

I don't know what you're getting out of this, which is why I asked.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:48:52

How is it offensive to say men and women should both take responsibility for contraception and if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should take the initiative and not rely on someone else. And that the reverse is also true?

Do you agree that women and men are responsible for contraception?

If so then what more is there to say? You seem a bit confused? confused

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 16:49:00

i think the problem for theenemy is that when your own views are repeated back to you without the padding of yoyr own justification the are recognisably misogynist and you dont identify with being a misogynist (you just want more rights over women and less responsibility having).

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 16:49:12

Oh FFS, the enemy. You must be acting thick on purpose. People don't have issue with you saying women should take responsibility, they have issue with you implying that its a woman's responsibility "because she gets pregnant" which implies the man has no role in a surprise pregnancy and no responsibility for the contraception.

She shouldn't have more responsibility though.

if she's doing her bit, then gets pregnant, that is not her fault.

Thankfuckingyou berts smile

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:50:29

Yoni, I'm getting nothing out of this at all, it's very dull having to repeat yourself over and over again. The same question to you, what are you getting out of constantly arguing with me?

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 16:50:57

you are the one putting words in to MY mouth. impissible to have a reasonable discussion with some body who twists what i say and denies what he said himself.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 13-Apr-13 16:51:43

Define responsiblity then theenemy. Because women do take responsibility. Every single time a man walks away from an unwanted pregnancy, the woman is the only one taking responsibility. The discussion on the thread that prompted this one was along the lines of the man in question was seen by some as being hard done by to have to face up to taking any responsibility for a pregnancy that resulted from the 2 people having unprotected sex. You see, it seems that 'women taking responsibility' equates to 'women having an abortion' as that appears to be the only definition of 'taking responsibility' that is acceptable to a man who does not want the pregnancy to continue.

Because I find your view highly offensive & am aware that other women are reading who have been in this situation, not just me, who just don't need it on a board like this.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 16:56:00

Berts, If I have said repeatedly that men and women are equally responsible for contraception, surely that implies men do have a responsibility and a role in a surprise pregnancy. I really can't see how you would assume I meant the opposite was true!

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 17:04:51

I also gave the example, that in the past I took responsibility for contraception, I didn't rely on the word of someone else, so that I knew there wouldn't be an unplanned pregnancy.

I said if I were a woman I would take responsibility and I wouldn't rely on a man to take care of it.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 17:11:53

Bunch, at no point did i ever say women didn't take responsibility.

BertsSweatyPits Sat 13-Apr-13 17:29:21

And you also said that because women are the ones who get pregnant, they should be the ones responsible for contraception. If you can't see what is wrong with that statement after multiple people pointing it out to you, there's really no point in replying to you anymore.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 17:45:23

Berts, men don't get pregnant and as was pointed out many men are only to happy to walk away from their responsibilities so yes women should take the initiative and use contraception if they don't want to get pregnant.

Just as men who don't want to be fathers should take the initiative like I did in using contraception. What it boils down to is each individual must take responsibility. I really don't understand how you assume that means I'm pointing the finger at women and saying its up to them. If you can't understand that then your right there Is no point in any further discussion.

MysteriousHamster Sat 13-Apr-13 18:03:32

Those of you blaming women and crying unfair, ask yourselves what you really want women to do?

Take all responsibility for contraception?

Then agree with the man about what to do with any accidental resulting pregnancy?

In essence, you want it all your own way. Can you admit it? And if it's not your way then what, the woman's a bitch? No, it is what it is. It's not the woman's fault the decision lies with her.

So all you can do is have the conversation about contraception, and/or use a condom, and accept that if a woman falls pregnant you. Sometimes the woman will agree with you (whether it's wanting a baby or an abortion). Sometimes she won't. Accept it, if you're going to have sex,

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 18:18:32

Mysterious, in the past if a woman told me she was on the pill I said that's fine, but I'll wear a condom anyway, just in case. I think women should do the same, if a man says he'll pull out or wear a condom she should say fine, but I'll Take my pill anyway, just in case. It's about the individual taking responsibility. So if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should take the initative. Why rely on someone else? This site is full of stories from women let down by men they'd been married to for 20+ years and thought they could rely in. It's not about saying the responsibility lies solely with women or blaming them. But apparently I'm wrong!

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 18:48:41

MysteriousHamster+1. very good post

as for TheEnemy, "apparently I'm wrong" Do you know how arrogant and misogynist you come accross?

Just because you yourself take practical responsibility by always wearing a condom doesn't mean that your views on responsibility are egalitarian or reasonable. So you can't use the 'I wear a condom myself' defense as though it somehow proved that you think responsibility is 50:50 because you clearly don't think that.

In the event of a pregnancy you blame a woman more because she "shouldn't rely on somebody else" not to get her pregnant. SEx is a collaborative act which often leads to a baby, contraception or no contraception.

You wear a condom not because you're 50% responsible but because "women lie" and you don't trust them, which is your prerogative entirely but it's certainly not proof that your views on this subject are fair or without misogyny. So stop offering it up as though it were.

YOu have also made comments which when they are repeated back to you - you deny them, and then call posters who question your philosophy obtuse. confused

The bottom line, having read your posts (and I have read your posts) is that you think women should take more of the responsibility for pregnancy because it affects them more. (Obviously it affects them more because men can walk away). And yet, you feel for men who have no say in the outcome of pregnancy. So you would like men to have more rights wrt his baby being aborted against his wishes/ baby brought in to the World against his wishes. This would mean fewer rights for women over their own body and baby.

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 18:57:16

So TheEnemy, a woman is supposed to take the pill when she's not in a relationship? even though quite often doctors will suggest that you shouldn't take it for 20 years, or shouldn't take it if you smoke, and shouldn't take it until you lose a stone or whatever. The pill increases the risk of certain cancers I had a situation once where the doctor refused to give me a repeat prescription because I was overdue for a smear. I had a full time job. It was a hassle for ME (the woman). God if all you had to do was buy a pack of condoms in tesco you'd be grateful surely.

Plenty of other women get headaches on the pill. I know one woman who just couldn't take it because of the headaches it gave her. I put on half a stone every time I was on the pill and on a short woman that shows.

YES the pill stops you getting pregnant, but all of these pills are hormones and I wouldn't take a pill every day just IN CASE I ever had spontaneous unplanned sex and it is not just unreasonable but unrealistic of you to expect women who aren't in relationships to pop hormones every day of their lives.

I often used to be in my office at 5.30 thinking shit, never took the pill this morning. It's a responsibility even just remember to take it EVERY day. I used to remember nearly every day but men don't take the pill and I seriously wonder how many of them would never ever forget a pill. How many of them would take a pill that increased their risk of certain cancers and made them put on some weight, on the OFF chance that they might have sex.

Reading your post it's as though you don't understand any of this. Women ought to just take the pill regardless of whether they're in a relationship. I'd say mostly accidents happen because the sex was unplanned and fairly spontaneous.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 18:58:50

Ginger I said men have no say, in the outcome of an unplanned pregnancy and conceded that while it seems unfair there is no solution to that and it's just a harsh reality. Not once did I say men should be given more rights. Had you truly read my posts you'd know that but I'm beginning to suspect your just determined to argue with me for reasons known only to yourself.

Gingerandhibiscus Sat 13-Apr-13 19:10:55

for reasons known 'only to myself'??? ONLY TO MYSELF???

Don't delude yourself. There'd be few adult women who'd read through this thread and think 'theenemy sounds like a reasonable guy and his views on the division of responsibility are spot on".

As women are about 50% of the population, it's says more about you than it says about me when you mock me, invalidate me, or try to, with sentences like 'your (it's you're) just determined to argue with me for reasons known only to yourself". Well if you can't conclude an argument with the most reasoned fair argument, just mock your oponent and invalidate them I guess.

By your rationale though, you can say what you like and anybody who challenges you, well, it says more about them than it says about you hmm Please! As though you're a paragon of reason and the problem is not the lack of equality, but my ishooooz.

Theenemy Sat 13-Apr-13 21:31:25

Just read through your post, lots of talk about my supposed attempt to mock or invalidate you, you picked up on a spelling mistake but I must have missed the bit where you admitted you were wrong and that in fact I hadn't called for more rights for men. I'm sure the 50%+ women who make up the population would be able to spot that.

And don't forget there are an awful lot of men who piss and moan about having to wear a condom (because the woman's not on the pill and has made this clear/because she's missed a pill or had an upset stomach), yet want PIV sex and still get all arsey about it if a pregnancy occurs...

i'm baffled by someone clearly saying 'i think women should take responsibility for contraception' then denying saying that and implying everyone who thinks he said that is thick. you said it. if upon discussing this with us and reflecting you have changed and clarified your position then fine, that's great. it's not weakness to change one's mind you know. it does appear weak to deny what you've said or claim it was taken out of context and attack people rather than just admit hey, you know, i was wrong or i hadn't thought out what i was saying and actually i now think differently.

i'm also admittedly baffled by an adult male with no children wanting to hang out on mumsnet to argue with mothers about contraception and responsibility for children.

It's how some people get their kicks swallowed hmm

Am now waiting for a post that denies what you've just said even though it's true with a mild insult thrown in for good measure...

ah maybe he's found something to do today or is having a lie in. i'm glad i'm not childless and have so little to do with my life that i hang out on mumsnet of a saturday starting arguments with mothers.

girliefriend Sun 14-Apr-13 10:57:53

Haven't read the whole thread or the original thread that the op is referring to but I had a child following a one night stand and took the morning after pill which did not work.

I have been consistantly shock and sad by the number of people who would have been more comfortable with me having an abortion rather than raising a child by myself.

As the op said you can't win so I think you have to go with what is right for you and as a good friend said to me when I found out I was pregnant 'I would never regret having the baby but I might if I had an abortion.'

My beautiful dd is now 7yo and I have no regrets smile

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:09:35

Swallowed, the very first thing I said on this post was Men and women were responsible for contraception, thats both, not either or, or one or the other. I went on to say that as its women who get pregnant they themselves should take responsibility for contraception. Many would think it was common sense that a woman who didn't want to have a baby would protect herself.

I tried many times to clarify what I'd meant but then find I'm accused of arguing, I was accused of being misogynistic, I was accused of making women who had been abandoned by partners who used these boards feel awful! I've been accused of being here to get my kicks and here to throw mild insults whilst being insulted myself.

I was asked why I was here? What did I get out of it? As if I had some sinister ulterior motive for being here.

As far as I can see a gave an opinion on a subject, your all perfectly entitled to your own opinions and to disagree with mine, I didn't invite an argument, or look to create one.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a man in a relationship with a woman to be reading posts on relationships on this site for their own reasons, but apparently it's for women with children only, that's fine, I have no argument with that and I see this is the wrong place to come for advice, I expect I'll be blocked again for having the temerity to be here.

Blocked again? hmm

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:17:19

Yes, it seems if I dare have an opinion that differs to yours I get blocked.

MooMooSkit Sun 14-Apr-13 12:17:39

I'll probably get a flaming for this but, I'd give females more than a 50% share in the blame. Given how drastically it changes a woman's life and her entire body for the rest of her life, it still amazes me how many 'accidents' occur.

Haven't read the rest yet but this seriously!! I have fell pregnant on the pill, taken it correctly and even used the diaphagm when I've had my pill break week just to be sure and I still fell pregnant (sadly miscarried the baby) we both did everything we could to make sure that it wouldn't happen but yes, it's defintely more MY fault than my partners. What a bunch of crap.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 14-Apr-13 12:28:42

Theenemy/Tenemy your posts seemed quite anti-women to me. If you didn't mean them to be this way - then you need to work on how you express yourself in writing.

This post in particular was disturbing:

I can recall a man going to court when a woman decided to have an abortion, (I could google it but I can't be bothered), the man said if she was willing to have the baby he would happily bring the child up on his own. The court decided he should have no say in whether she kept the baby or not, however if she had kept it against his wishes the law says he must pay. To me that's not fair, your stupid post won't change my mind about that.

It is her body - she makes the final decision. Nobody else. It would be barbaric to force a woman into a pregnancy & childbirth against her will. Just as it would be barbaric to force her into an abortion she didn't want. You call women having autonomy over their own bodies "unfair". hmm hmm hmm

AmateurMarriage Sun 14-Apr-13 12:29:45

TheEnemy, I hope you can understand this, guggesting that somebody is only arguing with you for fun, and/or because of their issues hmm rather than because they have a point - that is invalidating their voice.

I think it's extremely weird that this man has no kids. WHat the hell is he doing here? I assumed he was a father.

AmateurMarriage Sun 14-Apr-13 12:31:06

suggesting

so you're in the habit of being 'blocked' and you have several accounts open at a time with slight variations on the same name. i see.

I agree moomoo, that happened to me to, rather recently in feb. At first it was a huge shock, me and my dh were completely rocked by it but we came to terms together that we would support each other and have the baby but unfortunately i mc sad. The pill isn't as safe as it is for some, i took it religiously but for some reason it failed.
My dh never blamed me or himself, things happen and any decent man can see that, its just a shame some people like to lay the blame entirely on the other partner, which unfortunately is nearly always female.

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:40:47

Sabrina I think your twisting what I'd said, I did not say women having autonomy over their own bodies was unfair, I said men had no say or rights as to the outcome of an unplanned pregnancy, then admitted it was just unfair in the way life is just unfair sometimes. Nor did I suggest at any point that women should be forced to carry a pregnancy or have an abortion.

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:44:00

Amateur, don't you think asking someone to clarify their position and then accusing them of arguing because you take offence at the answer is unfair, as I have said I didn't come here for an argument. I don't see what is so unreasonable for a man in a relationship to read posts about relationships.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 14-Apr-13 12:45:08

I'm not twisting anything - I quoted your post. This is ridiculous - you keep saying things and then saying you didn't say them. Or didn't mean them.

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:46:01

Swallowed I was blocked once, I don't know why I was blocked and yes I created a new account. To say I'm in the habit of being blocked is simply untrue.

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:50:17

Sabrina I'm not denying what I said, I said it was unfair that men had no say in the outcome of an unplanned pregnancy.

I went on to use that case as an example

I then conceded that whilst it seemed unfair, there was no solution to that as a woman couldn't be forced to have an abortion or to carry a pregnancy.

I said it seemed unfair but it was just a harsh reality men had to live with.

Tenemy Sun 14-Apr-13 12:54:22

It seems that people keep copy and pasting things I said and looking at them in isolation, taken out of context, and arguing over that. Then I'm being accused of having some weird motive for being here and arguing with women about contraception.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 14-Apr-13 13:00:48

No, it's not just a harsh reality that men have to live with - men have the ability to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy - (and plenty do if you look at the maintenance payment stats) - the woman doesn't.

In the event of an unplanned pregnancy, the woman has to make a choice - and either of those choices will have an impact on her own body, and her mental welfare. She cannot have what she wants either - which is to be not pregnant.

you literally said 'i think women should take responsibility for contraception' - a full sentence. people copy and paste what you said because you deny what you said or pretend that somehow a statement that is clear as day and stands alone is being twisted by not including everything else you've said since.

whatever. people with multiple accounts arouse suspicion everywhere. saying you've been banned before obviously confirms those suspicions in people's minds. MN has a really lenient moderation policy and it is incredibly rare that they ban people. having said that thinking you're banned and therefore creating another two accounts to get back in and one for back up in case of being banned again presumably seems like the behaviour of someone with a history of being banned from places therefore having a strategy itms.

not to mention that joining mn with a name chosen like, "the enemy" and then going onto argue with mothers about responsiblity for contraception and the fairness of women getting to choose what to do with their own bodies really is a telling pattern of behaviour in itself.

enemythe Sun 14-Apr-13 15:02:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet

5madthings Sun 14-Apr-13 15:16:54

How many names does theenemy, tenemy, enemythe have?!!!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 14-Apr-13 15:23:25

Theenema, anathema? grin

5madthings Sun 14-Apr-13 15:31:22

Snort grin

theenema would work.

what was deleted?

as tenemy he has only posted on this thread. theenemy had a bit more of a posting history but not a great deal. any other names?

5madthings Sun 14-Apr-13 16:44:27

Didn't see what was deleted.

Odd post by mnet normally it says deleted for breaking guidelines or at posters request etc.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sun 14-Apr-13 16:49:26

I didn't see what was deleted - I think maybe he just typed "message deleted by Mumsnet."

A statement?

bless him. that's a whole weekend he's had idling away on mumsnet as a child free man. clearly we're here too but hey i'm a single mum at the tail end of the easter holidays whose only adult contact this weekend other than here has been sunday dinner at my infuriating mothers.

i'd like to think if i hadn't had a child i'd have better things to do.

no offence mn'etters.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 14-Apr-13 17:18:24

Hello

Twas us who deleted it - it's just that when we edit the deletion message it doesn't display in the normal way.

5madthings Sun 14-Apr-13 17:22:13

Thanks rowan can you clarify why it was deleted?

Fairenuff Sun 14-Apr-13 20:27:47

Interesting that a debate about something so simple and straight forward can run to 7 pages.

We all know how to make a baby. We all know how to use contraception. We all know that contraception sometimes fails.

Unplanned pregnancies happen. Both parties involved are equally responsible.

What, really, is there to not understand about that?

OhLori Mon 15-Apr-13 10:06:31

I would like to pitch in on the effect of the Sexual Revolution starting in the 1960s (though apparently there was a First Sexual revolution starting in the 17th century).

I think prior to that, it was probably seen as more 50:50. If a girl got pregnant outside marriage the man often had to marry her, or leave the village in disgrace. In a way both were responsible.

However, I think contraception has changed that beyond all recognition. The pill, the coil, effective condoms, the morning-after-pill, and finally abortion. The availability of abortion has meant that women do have the final choice, as OP says 90% choice.

So, you could argue, that women now have full control over their fertility and they don't have to have any children they do not choose to have. Which is great.

However, the downside perhaps is that women are seen as more disposable sexually and I think they are less valued by men. Men take less responsibility for their actions, and are not expected to take responsibility (except financially in some cases). You could argue that men do now seem to want sex without any consequences, physical or emotional.

Anyway its a complex subject. I am torn between SGB's more radical perspective and the other reality.

OhLori Mon 15-Apr-13 10:10:54

And also with Ginger's original OP that women can't win - unless they get married at about 27-33 to a nice man, they'll be judged at some point sad

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 10:19:31

contraception is the responsibility of both parties, and condoms are sensible anyway due to the sti risk
If a child is created through unprotected or protected sex then it is both parents responsibility to financially support that child if the pregnancy is successful

I don't understand the marrying at 27-33 thing. If anywhere outside that age bracket is it horrific or something?

OhLori Mon 15-Apr-13 10:29:36

Re. age, I think OP was just alluding to doing it all conventionally i.e marrying nice, stable, appropriate man (which is not a bad thing if you can manage it, but obviously many of us don't for varying reasons hmm).

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 10:35:01

oh conventional
over rated in my opinion wink

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 15:18:18

So obviously I don't want to make any sweeping stereotypes or anything, but surely each case is different. If a pair of consenting adults have sex using a condom which fails (for whatever reason) or the pill doesn't work, then of course the man should take equal responsibility. They're grown ups and should know what they're getting into.

However, there are cases on MN and one I know of in RL where the woman has told her boyfriend firstly that she couldn't conceive naturally, and secondly she was on the pill anyway. So he didn't need to use the condom he was apparently going to use.

Now in that case, when it turned out she'd told a friend she was going to try for a baby with this guy because neither of those facts were true, isn't the man justified in not wanting anything to do with her anymore? And having less than 50% responsibility for the children he unintentionally fathered?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 15:34:36

I would not say he unintentionally fathered a child if he took no precautions. And no it's not reasonable to dismiss his responsibility to the child he fathered if he simply left the responsibility up to someone he clearly didn't know very well. Not too dissimilar to my ex - would I be justified in dumping my DD on my ex because he told me he couldn't have kids? I didn't know him long enough to know for certain he couldn't have kids i.e. we didn't go through fertility tests to determine that as a fact but I still didn't just take a chance, we used a condom which split and then the MAP failed. We both took responsibility. I wouldn't have it any other way, my DD was clearly determined to get heresmile But, having sex can result in a pregnancy despite trying not to create one. What happens afterwards, as I've already said, says a lot about the person. Anyone who walks away claiming they were tricked into parenthood is pretty thick on the one hand, and an immature coward on the other IMO.

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 15:39:07

exactly. I have already explained to my 12 year old that he must always take responsibility for his own fertility and use condoms, apart from anything else it protects his own health

I was brought up during the AIDs adverts though. It petrifies me how people risk their own sexual health with people they hardly know

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 16:14:58

But if someone is lied to about it by someone they thought they could trust, because they wanted to get pregnant?

If you take your car to the garage to fix the brakes. The mechanic says he has fixed them. You then get in the car and drive down the street, the brakes fail and you crash, as it turns out the mechanic lied. Is that your responsibility or the person who lied about fixing the brakes?

Any decent bloke who fathers children, whether intentional or not, should contribute money for their upkeep. However, intentionally removing the choice from someone by deceiving them I think also removes their responsibility.

Yes they still had sex and should, in hindsight, have worn a condom, had a vasectomy (although that's a bit permanent) whatever - but if she's said she physically is incapable of getting pregnant in order to deceive him - that's not a 'whoops we made a mistake' moment - that's something much more malicious

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 16:16:11

It is morally and ethically wrong of a woman to do that but it still doesn't take the responsibility away from her male partner

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 16:22:00

Surely it takes some of the responsibility away? Or even if he's been tricked and lied to? Basically, he's been stolen from intentionally.

Not a mutual accident, not a mistake on the womans part but an intentional plan to deceive and make him responsible for something he was convinced could not happen?

Not really fair on him, is it?

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 16:36:18

of course it isn't fair but he still has the option of controlling his own fertility, all men do

and I find it abhorrent that a woman would do that too, but it still doesn't make a man not responsible for his actions. It's not a new thing that women have done this you know, it has gone on for decades. Evolution should ensure that men carry condoms and look after their penis

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 16:40:32

Nope he willingly gave away his sperm. If he thinks he can cry sperm thief when he did not wear a condom then he really is thick isn't he? As well as an immature coward. Stolen from? FFS he wasn't raped was he? Have you actually read any of this thread bant? Maybe you should if you genuinely believe its ok for a man to walk away from his own child 'cos he was 'lied to'. He didn't wear a condom. If his sperm goes on to create a child, then he has equal responsibility for the child created. I'm actually shaking my head in disbelief that you actually think he gets less responsibility because he's been 'lied to' when he didn't take precautions himself. Unless you are another on the wind up? hmm

5madthings Mon 15-Apr-13 16:40:53

No it doesnt take away any of his responsi bility as HE is responsible for HIS fertility. He makes a choice to control that or not.

Its wrong for anyone to lie or decieve someone, man or womam but we are both equally responsible for our own fertility. So if a man or a woman doesnt want a child then they should control their own fertility.

Controlling your own fertility is tge responsible thing to do if you dont want a child and no matter what sex carries the risk of pregnancy, be that contraception failure or miracle pregnancies when one or other person thought they were infertile.

If you choose to have sex you are choosing to risk a pregnancy, there is no 100% contraceptive other than abstinence so it is always 50% man and 50% woman.

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 16:43:39

So purely as a philosophical point, what responsibility would he have if she had sabotaged the condoms? If he had taken every effort, on top of her supposed infertility and pill use to still be 'safe' - and she put a pinhole in it. Is he still responsible then? How much? 50%? 1%

Owllady Mon 15-Apr-13 16:48:55

and how many women get pregnant after pinholing a condom?confused

but all contraception carries a failure rate I am afraid, and we all should be responsible for that as well <looks at third child>

Fairenuff Mon 15-Apr-13 16:52:00

If you choose to have sex you are choosing to risk a pregnancy, there is no 100% contraceptive other than abstinence so it is always 50% man and 50% woman

This is the bottom line. The only sure way to not create a baby is to not have sex. Everyone knows that it's a risk. You can minimise the risk but it is still there.

If a child is created then both parties are equally responsible.

Yes, there could be the very rare instance where one person lies to the other or attempts to sabotage contraception. But that is not usually the case. More often no contraception is used, or it is not used properly.

So many people are too embarrassed to admit they didn't use contraceptive so they say the condom broke or the pill failed, etc. But most of the time they just don't take responsibility.

Ironically, it is those men who think that they are not responsible if the woman chooses to keep the baby who are more likely to end up paying child support for an unwanted child because, instead of taking care of their own fertility, they just want to 'blame' the woman.

Men with this view consider abortion a form of contraceptive so are less likely to use effective contraception themselves and more likely to end up an unplanned pregnancy.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 16:55:49

No matter how a pregnancy occurs, even if someone was to go to the extreme lengths as described, it's never the child's fault they have been conceived. Yet you think it's ok to walk away? Have no responsibility? Again, if you let someone else supply the condom, or give them the opportunity to tamper with it, then you are still taking a chance and even when not tampered with, condoms still fail. It's a frankly idiotic and immature attitude to have that you can have a tantrum about how a pregnancy happened, and then fuck off as though there is nothing to consider afterwards. You still have a child that you always knew there was a chance could be conceived. Everyone who has sex knows this. I just do not get the idea that you have a child and choose to have nothing to do with it. It's just despicable to think that way. If you can't handle the possibility of being a parent then frankly you're not mature enough to be having sex, no matter how old you are.

Bant Mon 15-Apr-13 17:04:21

No, as I said earlier, I think any decent man should shoulder responsibility. I was simply asking the point because I have heard of cases where men have been 'tricked' into fathering a child, and I wondered how that affected your views on things.

I also think it's despicable to deny responsibility - or in some conversations I've overheard, refuse to pay any maintenance for children because the mother won't let the father see them.

I'm just saying it's not always clear cut.

And I hope that last bit wasn't a personal attack on me, bunch. You don't know me or my circumstances, all I've done is ask questions.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 15-Apr-13 17:12:05

Men who claim to have been 'tricked' into parenthood IMO are not the innocents they claim to be. It's usually a cover to excuse the shitty decision to walk away from their own child, ignoring the fact that there is no good reason to justify walking away from your own child IMO.

The 'you' in my previous posts bant was generic btw.

bobbywash Mon 15-Apr-13 17:29:42

Hmm intersting discussion, if I didn't want a child, I would take what precautions I deemed necessary and if the person I was with didn't want one either, I would expect them to take their own too. However if they didn't it wouldn't stop me from continuing to do so.

I can understand (though not agree) where the perception of "womens fault" comes from in unwanted pregnancy, because it is a womans body that changes in pregnancy. Hence a viewpoint would be, if you don't want your body to change through pregnancy you take the steps to avoid it, regardless of what the other does.

Yes men can just eat, shoot and leave (to paraphrase the book and the panda joke), but it doesn't mean they shouldn't take responsibility.

Fairenuff Mon 15-Apr-13 17:55:31

It's very difficult to be 'tricked' into parenthood.

If a man doesn't want a child all he has to do is keep his sperm away from the woman. If he doesn't want a child he should take responsibility for his own fertility.

That's means using a condom correctly, every single time and keeping them in a place that can't be tampered with. A locked box if necessary.

Even then he is still risking pregnancy because condoms are not 100% effective. Everyone knows this but I think it needs to be hammered home more because lots of men still think they are not responsible simply because they can walk away.

A lot of the men who claim to have been tricked are men who just moaned and whined about disliking condoms until the woman shrugged and decided that they could damn well take the consequences.

Also, this idea of a woman who not only lies about her fertility but puts pinholes in condoms and tells her mates she's going to get pregnant by a specific man whether he likes it or not... well, statistically such a woman might exist. But so do men who like impregnating women against the woman's wishes, and claim to be firing blanks in order to do so.

girliefriend Mon 15-Apr-13 20:46:30

I suppose the only difference is that men can't choose whether or not to have an abortion, so in my case I felt as I wanted to have my baby that this was my choice and as her sperm donor father couldn't make the same choice he was able to walk away.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now