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So confused :(

(65 Posts)
ThinkyPantsWorryWort Thu 11-Apr-13 01:15:15

Not so where to start but hoping you lovely ladies can talk some sense into me.

I'm hurting lots at the moment due to some serious crossed wires and I can't shake the feeling that I've been misled.

When I got together with my dp, 20 months ago I was very upfront about my desire for marriage and children. He shared these feelings.

Recently we have been looking into houses, a family home so to speak. This combined with other things has led me to believe a proposal was in the air.

To summarise:

*5 months in he told me he wanted to propose
*8 months in he admitted a proposal plan had been scuppered by an unexpected visit from my mother.
*1 year in he told me, unprompted, that it would most likely be within a year.
*at a romantic dinner we were discussing it and I mentioned the fact I would like to use a family ring I have inherited (a mother of pearl one) but it was a little in the small side. I suggested I could use it to help motivate a fitness campaign. He told me to tell him when it fitted.
*snuggled up in bed he told me "I want you to be my wife, in fact that's how I sometimes catch myself thinking of you"

I realise I am going on a bit so I'll get to the point. Last night he asked me whether or not I thought our wedding would be like a mutual friends. Two hours later we've finished planning our wedding; except for the date. I am feeling brave so say "all that's left is the date". Silence. Tumbleweed. Random question about what we are having for lunch tomorrow. I am floored but take a deep breath and go to bed.

Big chat tonight. He's not ready, not sure he believes in marriage as an institution but has offered to make a will and go to the solicitors to sign whatever it takes to become legally entwined and be next of kin.

I am so confused and can't stand to look him in the eye. He has been married before and I know this taints his view. He has said "I might wake up tomorrow and think it's a great idea". Equally he said if I asked him he would seriously consider it. I thought it was a case of when not if!

How on earth do I get over my disappointment? I'm also cross that he would say all he has said but not be sure now. I can't help but think something has changed. sad

Leverette Thu 11-Apr-13 01:22:44

He's an arse. A cruel arse.

Stringing along doesn't last forever (been there).

Keep your dignity, walk away. I think it was LeQueen who has a fantastic story about having done this.

I second Leverette. You will get over it - if you walk away, head held high, now.

BicBiro Thu 11-Apr-13 02:23:24

omg. what a shit saying all that to you, to then announce he's not ready. I'm sorry, but he's told you all you need to know about him now. I can't see how you can trust him in the same way? I think you should ask for time time and space to reassess in light of this new information. I know it hurts, but it's better to hurt now than delay it another 2 years as he procrastinates and hums and haws. seriously there is no quicker way to destroying your self worth than hanging in there in the hope he will change his mind.

Dahlen Thu 11-Apr-13 08:08:17

I agree. The way he's handled this is appalling.

He is entitled to change his mind about wanting to get married, and lots of people talk about it only to get cold feet later. His reservations are not unreasonable and he is entitled to his feelings and allowed to change his mind.

However, to go from planning the actual wedding to saying he's not ready and not sure he believes in it in the same evening is dreadful behaviour. It rather implies he had no intention of admitting it until you gave him no option, and that makes him guilty of saying one thing while thinking another and happily stringing you along in the process. Do you really want a future with someone like that?

In your shoes I would call things off and say you want some time to reassess a relationship that is obviously built on completely different foundations to those you thought it was. This will give you time to heal, keep your dignity as you are not just meekly accepting this appalling behaviour, and it may (if you consider this man a 'prize') just get him to commit as he contemplates a life without you. If it doesn't, you'll have had a lucky escape IMO.

eatmydust Thu 11-Apr-13 09:17:21

Walk away.

He probably doesn't know what he wants, but this is messing with your head.

You deserve better than this.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 11-Apr-13 09:22:09

He's a con artist.... very cruel to quickly lure you in on the promise of love and marriage, keep holding it out as a prospect, and then drop you in the shit with the reality i.e. he has no intention of marrying. All this in just 20 months?

Don't wait for him to 'wake up in the morning' with a change of heart. Control your own destiny and tell him to find another victim.

Jux Thu 11-Apr-13 10:42:09

If you hang around waiting for him he'll carry on as he has. For a very, very long time. You'll end up miserable.

If you walk away now, you'll get over him; you'll meet someone else who wants what you want and you'll end up with a happy family.

OxfordBags Thu 11-Apr-13 12:30:28

Bit worried you're seeing my Ex, as he reeled me in with all his flowery bullshit about marriage and kids. Never happened (thankfully!). Wat did happen, however, was the systematic erosion of all my confidence and aelf-esteem due to his emotional abuse, gaslighting, self-serving smooth-talking, temper tantrums when forced to stick to anything he promised, lying, just general self-obsession and narcissism...

He sounds just the same. Big romantic promises that are then withdrawn, denied or excused away are actually red flags for abusers, I have found out since. Beware.

He sounds horrible - to keep stringing you along like that and then just change his mind entirely!!???
I have to agree with the others. Not good at all and best to walk away now and find a man who will love and respect you and want to marry you! Good luck.

sparklekitty Thu 11-Apr-13 14:39:55

Are you sure he's not having you on and trying to throw you off the scent of a proposal?

My DB spent a few weeks after he'd bought my STBSIL telling her how he wasn't sure about marriage etc. She was a bit hmm whatever. Probably wasnt his finest hour but he just so desperately wanted the proposal to be a surprise.

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Fri 12-Apr-13 14:20:37

Thank you for all your responses. I'm sorry to have been so very quiet. Work overtook in a mad, unexpected way Thursday and am only just coming up for air now.

He realises he has acted unfairly. He admitted to a deep down superstition that if he remarries he'll lose me, like his 1st wife.

The trust thing is difficult. He likened our wedding talk to that of a trip we've planned together but not booked yet. He said just because we haven't paid for the trip or booked anything doesn't mean we're not going but equally he said we can't yet say "we are going to place x in August". Something might happen that means we do or we don't.

Like one posted commented, it's only been 20 months. He is certainly not an EA. . . I hold the majority of our finances in my name and all decisions are made jointly. He looks after us very well, I have a high pressure job so he takes care of the majority of house/food stuff, he earns 1/3 of what l do. No evidence of any other potential gas lighting so although I accept that this could be an example of it I am confident it isn't.

That leads me on to my final point, he said he'd have children with me tomorrow, sign everything over to me as he wants forever. He just can't make that public declaration yet as he thought he was promising forever last time he got married so knows categorically that it might not be true, even though he wants it more than anything.

So we are at a stalemate. I want marriage. He wants children. I won't feel secure enough to do it without a marriage. I don't know why. I'm sure plenty of people feel completely secure without it.

The only thing to do, is like do many of you suggested, take time out. This is a non negotiable for me, he knows that.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 12-Apr-13 14:38:26

Sounds like a load of old pony on his part. Promising marriage, even down to picking locations and other details, is nothing like planning a holiday.... hmm In this case it's not so much 'we are going to place x in August' but talking about exotic locations, getting out the brochures, calling the travel agent, sending off for a passport... and then revealing that there is no intention of leaving the house.

Superstition my eye....

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 12-Apr-13 14:39:58

"He looks after us very well, I have a high pressure job so he takes care of the majority of house/food stuff, he earns 1/3 of what l do."

The cynical me thinks he's spotted you're quite a nice meal-ticket if he can keep you strung along with 'marriage'. No wonder he wants to draw up papers, wills and so forth...

Floggingmolly Fri 12-Apr-13 14:50:29

Did you not think it was odd that he told you that he was going to propose at some unspecified future date? Surely you propose when you've made your mind up; not announce the imminent proposal years in advance? confused
And one of the elusive proposals was scuppered by a visit from your mother shock Wtf?

McBalls Fri 12-Apr-13 15:08:52

It's the fact that he has one out of his way to make you believe he wanted to marry you that stands out as being very cruel.

He is a headfucker, loves the idea of being your prize and having you dangling. There's no need for any of that, I imagine you would have given it a chance even if he said he felt uneasy about marriage?

He has done this for his own ego, nothing else. There's a particular kind of person who will morph into their new partners ideal. it shows a lack of integrity, character and morals.

And this stuff about babies? Bollocks! You called his bluff (without even realising that's what you were doing) on the marriage stuff so now he needs something else to keep you hanging on.

He sounds fucking awful. He doesn't want kids so how far is he willing to let reel you in with that one? It's a scary thought.

McBalls Fri 12-Apr-13 15:13:18

What about the engagement ring? If he had a proposal scuppered by your mum visiting then where's the ring?

This has really annoyed me! And I'm not even much of a marriage fan...it's just the extent of the manipulation, he sounds an utter creep. And spineless.

BeQuicksieorBeDead Fri 12-Apr-13 15:15:33

I wonder why it would be different if you asked him?

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Fri 12-Apr-13 16:00:27

I don't know, I just don't know. I am just so utterly confused. Thrown me completely.

Sioda Fri 12-Apr-13 19:03:54

Oh yes I had one of those too. Marriage hints from early on, then naming the kids. 6 years later...he did propose, then ran off with the OW. In hindsight he was a bit EA actually particularly after he'd met the OW. I'd never have recognized it at the time though.

Go back to your posts and see how his story doesn't add up. He's saying that he led you on because he didn't want to lose you - do you see how that's all about him? It's ok for him to hurt you so that he doesn't lose you. That's how he really thinks. He admitted to a 'deep down superstition' - oh please. Do you want to be with someone who considers superstition an acceptable excuse for hurting you? Or who describes his feelings as superstitions? It's an easy thing to admit to though isn't it? So very understandable to not want to be hurt again... He said he was unfair - eh,no, cruel would be the correct word. Callous. You could say careless of your feelings but he's gone to a lot of effort for someone being careless. Manipulative is what he really is.

His 'trip' analogy - he just compared getting married to you to taking a holiday with you - you know that's not right. Also the analogy doesn't even add up - he hasn't ag reed to marry you and is just waiting to pick a date - he's said he isn't sure about marriage at all. Then he said it's what he wants 'more than anything' - oh the dramatics. He's just not willing to actually commit to his side of forever. At least not in public. In case he'd be publicly embarrassed again if it didn't work out again.

'Something might happen that means we do or we don't - what do you think that 'something' might be? What he means is - I might get bored of you or meet someone who blindly adores me better than you. Or you might misbehave and fill the dishwasher wrong repeatedly, then I won't be asking you. So you'd better be a good girl. That's what the something is. Or it might magically wake up one day and my superstitions will tell me that now is the time. So you'll just have to wait and see if that happens. Because what else would you be doing with your life except waiting for him to do you such an honour?

He'd have children with you tomorrow - sure he would.... Sounds good and dramatic though. He wants to sign everything over to you - what everything? You earn more than he does. Exactly which assets is he going to sign over to you?

Normal people don't go around telling you repeatedly that they're going to propose before they do it. Let alone then turn around and say they actually might not do it at all. Normal people just propose. As someone above said, where's the ring from his interrupted proposal at 8 months? Or will his story be that he was going to get you one later - that would be a convenient story.

I don't think you have a stalemate about you wanting marriage and him wanting babies. I think you have a massive trust issue. How can you possibly believe he wants babies? He lied to you repeatedly about intending to marry you. He makes grandiose promises to manipulate you. He's callous and he won't change. Run away.

As a matter of interest, what's his story about why his marriage ended? He says he lost his wife? Also careless don't you think?

AnyFucker Fri 12-Apr-13 19:09:52

Gather up your self respect and tell this bullshitter to take a hike

minibird69 Fri 12-Apr-13 19:19:07

Agree with the others. He sounds like a snake

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Sun 14-Apr-13 00:28:45

Thanks again and once again apologies for the late reply.

In answer to a couple of your questions. He has been gifted a large sum of money from his grandmother towards a deposit, he meant that when he spoke of signing things over. There is no need to buy a ring. I inherited one I wanted. My mother lives 500 miles away so an unexpected visit is indeed unusual.

We have talked lots. To my shame he gently showed me am email I had set about a year ago in which I clearly say that marriage wasn't a deal breaker for me and he had replied that likewise, he hoped we would have children but if we found out we couldn't then he'd be happy to consider alternatives. I had forgotten about the whole email but as soon as I saw it I remembered.

I've stated my case. I've explained children are off the menu until we are married. Now he has some big thinking to do.

Thank you all for your time.

Mumsyblouse Sun 14-Apr-13 00:37:35

Why should he change, he's got you exactly where he wants you! No-one, but no-one sits and plans a wedding for two entire hours, mentions a thwarted proposal, then decides actually they are not ready for marriage. It's absolutely unacceptable. He's dangled the prize in front of you, and continues to do so, and your bargaining chip of not having children won't bother him in the slightest.

I am wondering why you would want to marry a man who can chat happily about planning weddings but doesn't want to marry you.

CleopatrasAsp Sun 14-Apr-13 00:38:57

You're on a hiding to nothing with this bloke. You can dress it up how you like but he is a game playing shit. FFS don't get pregnant by him because my guess is you won't see him for dust if you do. You sound nice and you deserve better.

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Sun 14-Apr-13 00:54:20

There will be no further talk of weddings or babies until he is ready for marriage.

I am still very confused by the whole thing and taking a few days to think it all through and take on board all that has been said and talk to some real life friends about it all.

I am in high alert and aware this may well be the unravelling of us. I'm not one to make snap decisions. It frightens me to think of where this is heading.

But really 20 months in is not too soon to be ready, or is it??

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Sun 14-Apr-13 00:55:17

Ps re my first paragraph - I've banned all talk of hypotheticals. Actions speak louder than words.

Flyer747 Sun 14-Apr-13 01:28:36

Google commitment phobe I believe this is what you are dealing with. My ex did exactly the same and When I say exactly the same I mean it! Promised weddings after a few months, etc, we bought a house, he got cold feet, everytime I ended it he'd come to his senses. It became a constant cycle of destruction. He told me the same as your boyfriend that he wasn't sure he wanted to get married anymore after wanting it so desperately when we first got together. This is what they do pursue you aggressively then back the hell off when they see you are staring to want commitment they promised you'd have one day. Please save yourself heartache and years of grief and get the hell out....

I put money on him not changing and you'll just hang in there hoping he will change his mind, and you'll waste valuable time of your life when you could be out there meeting someone who wouldn't hesitate in marrying you!

I'm so glad I came to my senses, but that relationship screwed me up for a long time afterwards and I found it nearly impossible to believe another mans word afterwards, as I tarred them all with the same brush!

However my ex is still single (36) and from what I've heard he has broken about 3 girls hearts since me, repeating the exact same patterns.
Four Years on I'm now very happy with a great man and we are expecting our first child in October.

Please please think of whats best for you and don't hang around in something just in case he changes his mind!!! Never make someone a priority who only makes you an option.

Good Luck xx

Ouchmyhead Sun 14-Apr-13 02:23:14

Ah OP your head must be all over the place! When I read your post though I must admit I thought it was a lot to happen in a very short space of time. You haven't even been together 2 years but you're already planning a mortgage, marriage and babies right now (or in the very near future.) It just reads like you've spent your relationship discussing the future and getting married but have you ever really just enjoyed being together, going on holidays or just being a couple? I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but it really does sound very full on!

It is undoubtedly cruel to string you along and say he's planning the proposal from 5 months together and now changing his mind, but maybe he is just getting a bit freaked out by how quickly it's happened?

dozily Sun 14-Apr-13 04:47:09

Do you mind me asking how old you both are?

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Sun 14-Apr-13 09:10:52

We are mid thirties so hence the frankness about where we wanted to be heading.

We have enjoyed our relationship, taken trips, mini adventures, also dealt with a short period if unemployment and ill health.

When we were talking last about this he asked if I thought I might have a wobble at the moment we stopped using contraception and that the first time we dtd without any might be frightening as well as exciting. That I would have the right to stop if it overwhelmed me.

That wouldn't mean all the daydreams and plans we'd made for children were any less sincere on my part. I think he does have a point.

I know they are two different things but to me that thought process is possible.

We live together and I've told him where I stand. He has too. Now I think it needs some time, some dust settling perhaps before anything further is said or gone.

In all other respects he is wonderful, this is our first bump. Never had cause to question him.

TurnipCake Sun 14-Apr-13 09:22:51

My ex did a lot of this, my only regret is not dumping his sorry arse sooner

ALittleStranger Sun 14-Apr-13 09:28:15

He sounds a bit cruel. Lot's of people have issues around marriage, the point is they don't tend to spend a large amount of time planning their wedding.

My guess is he liked you, knew your age and preferences so maybe talked up his willingness to marry to reel you in.

If you want children and you want to be married to have children then he needs to understand this in a crystal clear way and both of you need to make some decisions asap.

AThingInYourLife Sun 14-Apr-13 09:34:05

He doesn't have any point.

He's playing games with you and wasting your (precious at this point) time.

He doesn't want to marry you. But he wants to dangle it in front if you.

Your current state if confusion is no accident.

You're being played.

MadBusLady Sun 14-Apr-13 09:41:45

"So we are at a stalemate. I want marriage. He wants children. I won't feel secure enough to do it without a marriage. ^I don't know why. I'm sure plenty of people feel completely secure without it.^"

Argh!! You're already starting to question whether your approach is the right one. Please, please don't do this. It's one of your personal red lines, you've arrived at it for a reason, stick to it. Good luck.

flaminghoopsaloohlah Sun 14-Apr-13 09:43:23

Manipulator. All this lead up and then suddenly he doesn't want to get married - but he's willing to go to solicitors to make your legal/financial situation like marriage.....I smell a big stinking rat. What is he after?

MadBusLady Sun 14-Apr-13 09:51:21

Also, Sioda is right. How can you believe his baby talk is true? You had no reason to question the marriage talk, yet here we are. If he can string the marriage thing out over 20 months, he can string the solicitors thing out over another 20 months and then the babies thing (if you've caved by then and just want to get upduffed) over another 20...

ALittleStranger Sun 14-Apr-13 10:05:48

That's a very good point from MadBusLady. Given what you've told him about marriage then babies, he knows the real decision about babies is being safely deferred while he pontificates about commitment. I think there is a risk that if babies were suddenly on the table right now, it might emerge hat he has doubts about that too.

Flyer747 Sun 14-Apr-13 10:14:34

Alittlestranger exactly you hit the nail on the head. He knows your boundaries so he knows the babies issue is safe at bay whilst he strings you along further. I remember saying to my ex when he'd said he was no longer interested in marriage "what about kids" he said "I'd def have kids with you" a few months later we spoke again I said I'd come off the pill forsake marriage and we'd have kids instead....guess what, he shit himself and suddenly his views changed on that!!!

My friends etc tried to tell me what everyone here is telling you, because from an outsiders view it's a clear as daylight. However when you are the one involved sometimes you are blinded and cannot see the wood for the trees. I hung on in there for 8 months after he said he was unsure about marriage, partly because I loved him and hoping he'd change his mind, partly because at time I was (30) and I didn't want to start all over again an be single, meet someone else go back to dating etc etc....all friends were settling down.

I'm so glad I did or else i would have wasted more of my life on someone who was just stringing me along for his own benefits.

Really feel for you being on this position.

akaWisey Sun 14-Apr-13 11:05:51

baggagereclaim

Hope I linked properly. Try looking at this website especially the article on Fast Forwarding and Future Faking.

akaWisey Sun 14-Apr-13 11:06:46

reclaim

again.

akaWisey Sun 14-Apr-13 11:08:34
akaWisey Sun 14-Apr-13 11:09:14

This is why I NEVER link!!!!

qumquat Sun 14-Apr-13 11:20:35

This thread is a real wake up call for me. I am just like your DP. I can't decide if I should marry DP or not. I am not deliberately playing him, I genuinely change my mind once a week and it's tearing me apart. Just another perspective that he's not necessarily deliberately playing you, he just might be weak and pathetically indecisive like me. I know it doesn't help and it's still just as hurtful for you, but there isn't necessarily any malicious intent. I am desperate to make my relationship work.

Flyer747 Sun 14-Apr-13 11:20:54

Yeah future fakers and fast forwarders is a good read, it uncovers how these men operate. I read a lot of her articles highly recommend them.

akaWisey Sun 14-Apr-13 11:23:40

Flyer they saved my sanity!

So, after 20 months of dangling the carrot of marriage in front of you, he has been caught out red handed at not meaning it, so he changes tactics and starts to dangle the carrot of children and assets in front of you?

How many months until you catch him out for not meaning any of that either?

Flyer747 Sun 14-Apr-13 11:24:33

Mine too akawisey haha :-)

TurnipCake Sun 14-Apr-13 11:25:51

Another thumb up for Baggage Reclaim!

Walk away.

Sioda Sun 14-Apr-13 12:40:35

qumquat - No it's not the same unless your relationship history also looks like this:

He made clear from the start that he wanted marriage and kids and you agreed that was what you wanted too. Then
*5 months in you told him he wanted to propose
*8 months in you admitted a proposal plan had been scuppered by an unexpected visit from his mother.
*1 year in you told him, unprompted, that it would most likely be within a year.

etc.

Please don't feed into this guy's sob story that he's just all weak and indecisive.

Thinky He's got a good line in metaphors going. Your mental flexibility is betraying you though. It is not the same train of thought at all. If you were dtd to conceive, it would mean that you had both agreed you were going to do it, that night. Then yes, if you had a wobble and wanted to put it off a bit more that would not necessarily indicate any insincerity about the decision you'd made.

He has not agreed to marry you. You have not agreed a date together. He is not having a last-minute wobble on the day and looking to put it off a little bit. It's not even remotely the same thought process. You're bending over backwards to be understanding and put yourself in his shoes. Usually that's a good thing but you're skipping right past the way he has treated you. Yes you gave him mixed messages about marriage as dealbreaker - but he was promising a proposal during all of that time anyway! And no you didn't need a ring, but did he know that at 8 months? Sounds to me like he found that out at 1 year. Has he made that solicitors' appointment?

And how on earth could 20 months be too soon for marriage for him if he was going to ask you at 5 months, 8 months, 1 year...

IDontDoIroning Sun 14-Apr-13 12:48:48

Don't waste the rest of your fertility on this waster.
You've said no wedding no kids.
He's not keen on wedding knows that means no kids.

Gingersstuff Sun 14-Apr-13 13:04:05

OP, I'm with all the posters who say he's taking you for a ride. His behaviour is very cruel. And as for proposing...it's not bound by law, so in Normalville you either do it, or you don't. You propose, or you don't. Like Yoda says. So all this "oh, he wanted to propose" and "oh but my mother came to stay" and "the proposal will happen within a year" means jackshit, quite frankly. And you are excusing his behaviour...you were "shamed" by the email about marriage not being a dealbreaker (though you'd made your feelings about this clear from the start?)...he "gently" showed you (wtf. How on earth do you gently show someone an email as opposed to just...showing them??)
I am sorry you're in this position, but your flowery language is not hiding the fact that this guy is a complete player and is totally messing with your head. And please for the love of the Gods, don't fall pregnant by him.
And for the record, my husband proposed (properly) less than two weeks into our relationship. We've been married 17 years in June, so yes...you can be very sure of something in less than 20 months.

AMR73 Sun 14-Apr-13 13:04:54

I subscribed to e-mails from Paige Parker and found her advice very helpful. Also, it doesn't do any harm to go away by yourself or some friends for a weekend or even a week- let him miss you. I won't say anything further as (and no offence meant) I haven't heard his side of the story.

ThinkyPantsWorryWort Tue 16-Apr-13 21:48:00

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Lots of you have given me plenty to think about. I am still thinking it all through.

I don't have the answers to some of the questions posed. Those that I do have the answer too it seems pointless to post - lots of you seem pretty adamant that the only thing to do is walk away. Would it really change your advice if I explained that by gently I meant showing me it calmly, without shouting, whilst reassuring me that if I'd changed my mind or didn't remember that was ok but he wanted to show me something that I'd written that had helped formed his views on marriage? I don't think it would. sad

I wonder if you'd give him the same advice if it were him posting about me changing my mind. From saying it's not a deal breaker to leaving him over it? confused

skyebluesapphire Wed 17-Apr-13 01:00:47

I think that anyone is entitled to change their mind and it was twelve months ago, so he can't really hold you to that. But you do need to make a decision. Fo you want marriage, do you want kids, do you want him.

Which is more important?

My cousin was with a man from she 17 to 29 and every year she thought he would propose on birthdays or Christmas and he never did. He said it was because his parents divorced when he was 4. He woukdnt have s child outside of marriage. She wasted all this years hoping he would change. She then married a man who said he didn't want kids which she accepted but tried to change his mind. After ten years and In the year she turned 40 he said he would like a child. She has since had several miscarriages.

She has wasted her life on putting her own dreams aside for the bloke's and will probably never have a child now.

Don't let that be you. Seriously think about what YOU want and what is more important.

greeneyed Wed 17-Apr-13 07:03:20

He is human and it's okay to be uncertain, change his mind, get cold feet. He has said he will commit with children, finances will etc, i don't understand all the vitriol towards the man. OP i waited 5 Years for a proposal spent 12k on a wedding then found out we were infertile. Fast forward a few years and IVF we are skint and have one child rather than the two we would have wanted. The marraige and big wedding don't seem important at all now and I wish we hadn't waited. If we ever split up I wouldn't marry again.

greeneyed Wed 17-Apr-13 07:06:58

Fwiw I was just like you and would not consider children before Marriage, now i really don't know why. Your children and life you build will be the glue that binds you together not a piece of paper

Leverette Wed 17-Apr-13 07:21:04

Thinky this guy is a pro at headfucking and is gaslighting you phenomenally.

He is pulling out all the stops to make it clear there won't be marriage, even going so far as to refer to an historic communication from you (er...views change as a relationship evolves) which comes across to me as an attempt to try to make you feel stupid for ever imagining it was going to happen.

YET

He has talked about proposals on several occasions
He knows how you feel about your ring and asked you to let him know when it fitted
He asked if you thought your wedding would be like your friends' and willingly participated in discussing/fantasy planning your own nuptials

YYY to future faking.

Accepting being treated like this is going to damage your self esteem really badly. You're worth better. You're worth someone who doesn't play twisty self serving, harmful mind games thanks

MadBusLady Wed 17-Apr-13 08:24:56

Look, within the period of the last year (if my understanding of the timeline is right) he was still saying things to you like "I'm going to propose within a year" and talking to you about your engagement ring. So his whole spiel about "I formed my views on marriage based on what you said in this email a year ago when you said it wasn't a dealbreaker" is misdirection. It clearly wasn't informing his views or he wouldn't still (and up to the other day's conversation, in fact) have been saying things like that.

But TBH it doesn't really matter what is or isn't going on in his head. Just please don't start moving your red lines for him. sad You started this thread shocked and confused. Trust yourself that your instincts were right. It doesn't have to mean that you walk away immediately, but it does mean he has to step up now that he knows your views as they stand. This is serious for you.

Whocansay Wed 17-Apr-13 08:55:06

He sounds like a child to me. He's making up little fantasies and expects you to go along with them, until he makes up a new one. He seems to like a bit of drama.

I don't know of any men that gave a 'countdown' of when they were going to propose. They just did it. Because they were in love. This guy is wasting your time.

MorrisZapp Wed 17-Apr-13 09:06:30

Good advice here, but can I be a bit devils advocate and look at another angle here?

I don't understand the whole proposal thing, never have. To me, it has no place in an equal relationship. Yet even today, women like OP and loads of others on here are convinced that the only way they can be in a Ltr is if the guy proposes marriage etc, in romcom style. Which leaves men in an unfair position if you ask me.

In a world without female expectation, how many men would do the whole proposal thing off their own back? Not many. Marriage itself seems to be something that women push for while men do it to comply.

This guy may well be confused too. He loves op, wants to be with her, and wants to tell her what she wants to hear. But his objective side can't see the need for or benefit of actually being married. So he's got himself tied in knots.

He may be a total gameplayer, what do I know. But I think that he's getting an unfair pasting here. Op, I don't have any advice really, only you know if you think that all this wedding talk aside, he truly wants to be with you long term. I guess you could call his bluff and suggest ttc, his reaction to that might be what you need to know.

MadBusLady Wed 17-Apr-13 09:14:08

I see what you're saying in general terms Morris. But actually, in this scenario, the OP invited the man to name the day after a long, lovely conversation of wedding planning - not unreasonable or high drama. She doesn't seem to be asking for abseiling or Milk Tray. If anything, it's him who's been ramping up proposal expectations.

Incidentally I am the least romcom person ever, but I wouldn't have kids without getting married either. Not now I've spent some time on the Relationships board! Pure pragmatic self-protection.

Corygal Wed 17-Apr-13 09:20:50

He's human, he's entitled to change his mind.

But he doesn't want to marry you. I would give him the boot temporarily to get some space for you to decide what you want. Don't continue the relationship under these circs - he's getting it all his own way, which is the wrong way for you.

AMR73 Wed 17-Apr-13 14:02:15

Have you considered moving out (or asking him to move out, if it's your house), but continuing to see one another? At moment, he is having his cake and eating it. Maybe you are making it too easy for him? Have found like most men appreciate most the things they have had to work for. Also, having separate homes (and no stay/sleep overs) would make it easier for you to detach emotionally when considering the situation. Hopefully things will work out for you but if you decide to walk away, easier if you are already in your own place. Whatever you decide to do, trust your inner voice.

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