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Don't really want to post but feel like I'm going nutty!

(130 Posts)

Long story short, me and DP have been together just under a year. He's taken to DS very well, helps out a lot, is supportive & seems respectful.

But I was borrowing his phone to check my FB via his (he knew and was there) and I saw that he's liked this page & gets daily updates, basically of women in their underwear with the option of seeing them naked elsewhere on the internet (they usually post pics with links to more explicit material).

I know a lot of blokes occasionally use porn and for some reason that doesn't bother me but I just didn't think he was the 'type'.

The issue is partly because I think it's a bit sleazy & partly because whilst not massive I obviously look like I've had a kid naked & despite him saying he prefers me now to when I was a twig, I don't believe him, as I used to be the same size as most of these girls etc.

I know this is probably stupid but I feel like saying something (carefully) to him as I'm now silently judging him & feeling like it's changed my view of him slightly, which isn't that fair is it if I haven't asked him about it.

Sorry for rambling! smile

(there's something about the fact that it's daily and often more than once a day that he gets these updates, rather than the occasional use of porn that he barely uses anyway).

I'm not sure if I'm being OTT or not.

I think that's what I wanted to know. As trivial as it sounds it just did hurt a bit to see that & feel like he's been lying about what he likes & what his type is etc.

maybe I'm just a prude... blush grin

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 10-Apr-13 11:03:14

You are entitled to feel this way. You both haven't been together for long and already he is getting his sexual kicks elsewhere (I refuse to click onto the link).

I thin you can tell a lot about a man's view of women and sex from what he does - it sounds like he thinks women are bodies to be used/exploited?

I'm not sure to be honest. I think if I talk to him then i'll be able to tell how he really feels about it all & if he gets super defensive then I will think less of him & reconsider our relationship.

I don't want my DS thinking casual soft-core stuff is normal if you know what I mean.

We have a very good sex life & I don't feel that he's disrespectful in any other way.

It's just suddenly made me feel shit about the way I look, which I'm not proud of tbh. I'd just really believed him when he said he preferred curves etc etc & now I keep wondering what he really thinks.

(He was very big himself once so we actually look similar naked...lots of stretch marks going on aha)

(Like I said, i'm not massive. Fairly average & we're both in our 20s. But I'm no size 8 iyswim & don't actually want to be)

Dahlen Wed 10-Apr-13 11:11:46

It would be a massive red flag for me, I'm afraid.

However, the presence of scantily clad women in our society is so normalised that if he's otherwise great and you want to give him the benefit of the doubt WRT being a sleazebag who treats women as sex objects, you could use this as a platform for having an in-depth discussion about porn, the sex industry, how women are portrayed in society and how this can be damaging to all women, domestic violence, etc. Even if he tells you what he thinks you want to hear, if you approach it in a 'read between the lines' frame of mind, you will be able to discover a lot about his true attitudes. You can then go from there.

I just really feel there's no need to look at stuff like that on a daily basis/see it as entertainment. I sure as hell wouldn't join a male-equivalent if there was one. I just don't work that way & the only person I want to see naked on a regular basis is him.

Dahlen Wed 10-Apr-13 11:13:07

Although reading your penultimate post, I think the main problem here is that it's making you insecure? If that's the case, all you can do is ask for reassurance and work on having enough confidence in yourself to not give a shit what he thinks anyway.

^ I think I will dahlen

I consider myself an unashamed feminist and hate the way it's normalized. He's such a good bloke besides this, hence the shock.

I really feel that maybe talking to him about it and discussing how important it is to me as an issue will help he rethink it.

Worst case scenario is he gets super defensive or says i'm being ott but then at least I know what he really thinks about it & can deal with that when it comes to it.

It's hard to feel like I'm not being ott because it's SO 'normal' (i.e page 3 being another daily source of such material).

SIGH

It's actually more that I feel like he may be sleazier than I thought.

I only feel insecure every now & again & it's just the shock of coming across it & that temptation to compare yourself.

The more I think about it the less insecure I feel & the more annoyed I feel.

It only made me think 'ew' when I first came across it but i'm now annoyed because I woke up at 3 and coudln't get to sleep because it suddenly hit me that I'm really not ok with it & am dying to see what his views are on it.

Not his fault I couldn't sleep but still annoyed! aha

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 10-Apr-13 11:26:27

I think if I talk to him then i'll be able to tell how he really feels about it all & if he gets super defensive then I will think less of him & reconsider our relationship.

Would that be such a bad thing? Surely its better to know now what kind of man he really is than 10 years down the line?

I'd much rather know now! Before DS is old enough to understand or look up to him (he's only 2 atm).

pizzatime Wed 10-Apr-13 11:28:50

Hey OP,

The Suicide Girls aren't porn at all - they are like rock style models with tattoos. I know a lot of women who like the suicide girls too. I understand how the page looks but honestly, it's nowhere near porn in the traditional sense.

I know the FB version only has them in underwear and not fully naked but it's just the whole point of the page that irks me.

It's just tattooed/alternative girls, all smiley, all impossibly skinny and doing stupid poses. It's objectification to me, they're just smiley pretty bodies to look at. There is no other point to it.

I doubt he's thought about it that much but that's how I've always felt about things like that. I'm not the only women who feels it's a bit sleazy am I?

I have had a proper look and I know the FB site isn't nudity or anything but it is almost all women in their underwear & you can follow links to see them naked (which I know he's done, as I saw a search on his phone previously when using google but thought nothing of it as I knew nothing of SG at the time).

I know there's no sex involved with their work etc.

But they do pose naked, so I still consider it softcore

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:01

I would agree with you Op.

Have a chat with him about the whole thing. Good luck.

madonnawhore Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:47

Have you talked to him about how you feel about this stuff? Do you know his opinions on feminism/sexual objectification of women, etc?

If not it might be worth exploring his views and maybe challenging them. So very many, many people don't understand why this stuff is wrong because they've never even given it proper thought.

It's important to find out your partner's views on these issues anyway I think.

madonnawhore Wed 10-Apr-13 11:39:31

Also I agree with the poster who says that Suicide Girls isn't really about porn. It's a sort of counter-cultural trendy thing. A bit like Riot Grrrls a few years back.

But that still shouldn't take anything away from your feelings about it, which are totally valid.

Thanks mad'

I'll broach it tonight & probably end up back here!

He knows a little but I've not properly gone into it as I suppose he's seemed very respectful and agreed with what I have said on it.

It really does seem likely that he actually hasn't thought about it in the way I've described, as lots of people don't.

I'm aware that I feel very strongly about it & not everyone does.

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 11:43:25

I've clicked the link you sent...this looks pretty tasteful compared to a lot of the nasty porn out there...(and one of my male FB friends 'likes' the site). It is 'liked' by men and women and shows beautiful girls, mostly with tattoos, showing off their bodies quite tastefully. I do get what you're saying, but I think a lot of guys will 'like' this kind of thing and he possibly signed up before you met but still gets the notifications.

Some of my friends and I belong to a Facebook group to which people post pics (often semi-naked) of attractive men - mainly celebrities and film-stars, some models. The pictures are undoubtedly presenting these men as sex objects, often not particularly subtly. I have a partner who I find pretty irresistable, but doesn't closely resemble any of the pics on this group! ...but likewise I am not like your typical porn star either and it he seems pretty content with me!

Branleuse Wed 10-Apr-13 11:43:29

I have suicide girls on my likes list too

youre overreacting IMO

^ I know it's very tame...plenty of my women friends like the style, as they're alternative but I just find it hard to be 'ok' with it, because of the bigger picture.

^ it's partly because I know he searched for a few girls in particular and when I looked to see myself they came up with quite a few naked shots.

It's made me wonder how he feels about things like that in general.

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 11:49:02

Are you worried that he looks at pictures of naked women? Or that he doesn't find you attractive?

No. I know he does, going by his actions, though I feel he's lied a little about not liking skinny girls, probably just to be nice!

I'm just worried that his views might be a little too different to mine on things like this, feminism etc.

(there is a general attitude that some men my age seem to have that women are somehow lesser, looks are most important etc. I just really hope that's not him. I didn't think it was before now)

Branleuse Wed 10-Apr-13 12:01:41

youre worried he might secretly like skinny girls??

Why would he have even said that? Was he desperatly trying to reassure you that he was only attracted to women of your exact frame and style???

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 12:02:14

Are you sure this isn't more about how you feel about your body and feeling insecure that you are not as slim as the 'skinny' girls on SG rather than your DP really preferring that in a real life partner? How would you feel if he was looking at 'big and beautiful' site or something like that? Probably as bad, if not worse. He is with you...not just your body, be it big, small, wobbly or firm.

Err he did actually go out of his way to say he's never dated a skinny girl, prefers them my size etc. That was unprompted and all from him. I don't actually tell him when I feel insecure about my looks as it doesn't happen that often & I can talk myself out of it fairly easily.

I just don't see why he bothered in the first place. You can like whatever shape you like. He probably was just trying to be nice

I really don't mind him looking at whatever occasionally. I was just surprised that he looks at things like that daily & am a little concerned that he's maybe sleazier than I thought.

I know he likes what he has, as he does say so & act so. I'm not massive either!

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 12:16:10

He might not look daily...with FB it all just comes up on your newsfeed and you see it there without taking a lot of notice. If he started spending hours every day searching for pics and videos then I think that would be different. TBH from what you've said so far he doesn't sound anywhere near as sleazy as many.

Presumably you're not dating Daniel Craig (or equivalent)...and you're happy.

I am not grin He really is a womanizer

And we are happy.

I'm not sure how much notice he takes but when he's been on fb in front of me he's skipped past a few of that page's posts very quickly, so I don't see iyswim.

It makes it seem dodgier than it probably is.

(It doesn't help that DS's dad was an a tad sleazy, which I ignored, to my own peril. He had some disgusting views on women that I didn't discover til quite late. Much better off now)

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 12:36:02

Trying not to tar him with the same brush as your ex...but at the same time being vigilant not to make the same 'mistake' again. Can be tricky sometimes. Glad you're much better off now!

Thanks.

I try hard not to jump to conclusions just because my ex was like that...which is why I want to have a chat about it tonight. He'll most likely be very reasonable about it as he's seemed very respectful of women before, respects all the women in his life etc.

I just don't want to presume how he feels about it etc without asking him. It's not fair on him really, especially if he's not that fussed and just liked the page because of it's alternative style (we're both quiet alternative ourselves).

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 12:49:32

I thought quite a lot of the pics on the site were pretty stylish....tbh it's not a million miles from how my DD and her friends dress (no tats as yet...but the hair/style/specs etc are all similar) and they do tend to pout to camera rather a lot.

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 12:51:01

That wasn't supposed to make it seem more sleazy btw!...just more a comment on the style, rather than a sexy aspect.

I actually love the style! It's not far off how we both dress etc.

I just don't like some of the sleazier underwear shots iyswim.

Lovingfreedom Wed 10-Apr-13 12:58:42

yeah yeah...I do...! Some of it is not alternative at all! Just pics of young girls wearing pants. If you read the comments against that pic though quite a lot are complaining that this is not SG...it's a girl with tat doing porn and doesn't have a place on the site. Interesting...!

True. There are some on there that don't look very alt at all and are just in their underwear & pouting.

(The actual website seems to be cleaner than the FB page too)

I do like the idea behind it, and that it's sort of set up by women. Just not sure about the direction of some of it & DP's views in general with stuff like this.

ladyjadie Wed 10-Apr-13 13:13:30

OOh, my friend used to work for Suicide Girls. I used to think she loved it but when I met up with her after not seeing her for a year, she told me it had kind of skewed her view on men. She used to get emails and things and guys coming up to her telling her 'I've seen your vag!' (her words hmm ) and thinking she was fair game because of the pictures she'd done.

Personally I like looking at the pretty ladies buuut... I also don't think I'd be ecstatic if I 'found out' my DP had been secretly looking [total hypocrite face] and paying to see more... hmm. Sorry that's no help really! I get what you mean about seeing him as slightly more sleazy though. I felt like that about an ex.

he's not paid for anything as far as I can tell.

He just google searched one of them and it came up when I was typing something else into google (his phone shows previous searches underneath the google bar once you start typing).

I'm pretty sure he didn't realize it was still there tbh or I doubt he'd have lent me his phone to look something up!

ladyjadie Wed 10-Apr-13 13:39:48

Oops sorry (bad reading!) Well if he didn't pay for anything that's better. Have a chat with him, then leave it and just remind yourself that he's with you and you are clearly plenty hot enough for him! You're a real lady, keep reminding yourself you are gorgeous and look at your gorgeous DS and see it as him looking at arty shots. Maybe look at it with him if you like, he'd probably love that!

I think I just need to clarify that he just appreciates the style & the odd cheeky shot and isn't sleazy, so I can forget about it smile

Estherbelle Wed 10-Apr-13 14:57:54

I clicked on the link and found that 6 of my friends "like" the Suicide girls facebook page too. Five of them are straight women and the one who is male is very happily married to a good friend of mine. I've always thought it's a site for alternative models to show off their tattoos. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if my DP looked at it to be honest.

Each to their own

musickeepsmesane Wed 10-Apr-13 20:52:06

Doesn't matter what we think, it matters what you think. You don't like it and you are surprised he is looking at the pics. Talk to him about it. Don't think your size is relevant tho'. My hubby was all about big boobs before he met me. It is the attraction between the two in the relationship that counts.

eccentrica Wed 10-Apr-13 20:53:16

It's not really 'alternative', it wasn't set up by women and it doesn't in any way celebrate women who are attractive in diverse ways. They are pretty much all very young, skinny and white. Who cares that they've got tattoos? (I'm speaking as someone with multiple tattoos and piercings myself).

Its soft porn for people who like to think they're better or more interesting than your average gawper.

OP, it would make me feel annoyed and insecure too.

That's what I mean...I don't want it to bother me but it does, because of my views in general.

Not sure how to get a chat going without accidently putting him on the defensive. Any ideas?

DuttyWine Thu 11-Apr-13 09:14:19

Sometimes someone might share a photo and you might like the page it came from and from them on it clogs up your feed with loads of photos! It happens to me all the time, I see something somebody else has liked it makes me laugh so I like the page and then boom! 300 photos a day on my feed which I don't necessarily like. My dp liked a page because he liked a photo of Marian Carey hmm and the page was celebrating women with big bums so everyday photos of big bottomed women come up on his feed!

musickeepsmesane Thu 11-Apr-13 10:46:03

He will probably get defensive, he flicks through quickly if you are there so he is uncomfortable about you knowing. It is difficult because you have strong views and have been burned in the past. I think you need to own the fact that you have a problem with it and start from there. You haven't been together long and you will be learning new things about each other all the time. Learning to talk about issues that make you uncomfortable is important and the only way to start is to throw yourself into it! Obviously in a nonconfrontational, nonjudgmental manner.......good luck with that wink never managed it myself grin

I broached it this morning & he said it was just for the tattoos it isn't just for tattoos, as I know he searched for a few of the girls etc but nevermind but I said I know I can be insecure & I have strong opinions on it but he said if it makes me feel that way he'll unlike it.

I feel much better tbh knowing he was willing to do that to make me feel more comfortable.

Thanks for the advice!

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 11-Apr-13 11:40:28

Glad you feel better.

Did you talk to him about porn, objectification of women etc to find out what he thinks? I am a bit concerned that he hasn't been totally honest with you...

I've not gone into the full on talk yet, didn't have time this morning but fully intend to this evening when we have plenty of time.

(I can't be with someone who feels it's a non-issue if you see what I mean, it's just something I feel too strongly about. May sound OTT but it'd just be too much of a moral clash).

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 12:05:23

You already know that he searched for some of the girls and looked at the naked pics. You said yourself it isn't just for the tattoos.

He's quite likely to agree with what you say/say what you want to hear about porn and SG site so that discussion is probably less relevant than your own feelings about what you already know. Is searching for and looking at the naked pics (and making out that it was only for the tattoos) acceptable to you? He's offered to 'unlike' the site - will he stop looking at these kinds of pics and do you think knowing it upsets you will influence what he does in future?

It's difficult to say without knowing your DP. How did he react to you asking him? Was he surprised it would bother you?

He didn't seem surprised & said he did it was mostly for the tattoos & the alternative thing (but didn't deny the other reason, though didn't mention it either). I'm well aware he's likely to say what I want to hear but he seemed to feel bad it had made me feel so uncomfortable.

He doesn't seem sleazy in any way & I'm well aware a lot of men my age (and any age) look at porn etc. As long as he's not doing it all the time, it's doesn't replace sex etc then I don't have a big issue with it, though it's not my cuppa.

I do have an issue with the daily updates of girls in underwear & that was what I wanted him to understand. And I need to try and work out how he feels in general about it all tonight. I think i'll know if he's fobbing me off with what I want to hear to be honest.

I'm not sure how to get his honest opinions out of him though. I don't want him to lie to me about his views (even if it's what I'd rather hear).

I want to try not to come across too militant feminist but try and express how important it is to me at the same time, which I will attempt later.

I feel a bit silly because whilst it sounds trivial to some I feel too strongly about it to 'let it go' & I need to know who I'm really with.

(My typing is a tad clunky because I currently have a 2 year old climbing me) grin

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 12:40:44

Putting the 'soft porn' issue aside, look at this way. Your dp is doing something which makes you feel uncomfortable.

Now, if I was doing something that made my dh feel uncomfortable, I would stop doing it. If I didn't want to stop doing it, I would discuss it with him and come to a compromise. If we couldn't compromise it would be a dealbreaker.

It doesn't matter what he's doing, what matters is how you both feel about it. If you tell him you don't like it and it's no biggie to him, he'll stop. Why wouldn't he? He has no reason to carry on looking at naked girls.

On the other hand, if he defends his right to look at what he wants, or tries to belittle your opinions or feelings, then you know what kind of man you're dealing with.

I think you need to decide what your views are on porn because at the moment, it's all a bit wishy-washy. You kind of don't mind, but then you kind of do. I think you are being influenced by others. You don't want to seem like a prude, or that you're being oversensitive or controlling. So you say you don't mind him looking at these girls.

But honestly? You clearly do mind, or you wouldn't be seeking reassurance here. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or feels. It's your life. It's your relationship.

Tell him how you feel. Just say, look I don't like you looking at naked girls. I also don't like you looking at women in their underwear. I have quite strong opinions about the sex industry and use of women for sexual gratification. I'm happy to share my views with you and I'd like to know what you think. But whatever happens, can you give me your word that you will stop looking at any kind of porn, including 'soft porn'.

His response will tell you all you need to know.

Oh hell yes, if I thought I was likely to meet a man my age that didn't watch porn full stop I'd much rather that. But I've not met one yet & tbh DP barely watches it (from what he says...). And I think he just occasionally looks at shots from this site.

I know I should bring it up because regardless of everyone else's views I do mind, quite a bit.

if he gets very defensive later when I discuss the bigger picture or just disagrees totally then I'll not have much choice but to end it. I don't want DS thinking casual objectification is normal & I want a DP who respects women.

thanks for the reply btw, I know I sound wishy washy! smile

(I am going to say that I don't generally agree with porn full stop & the general attitudes that go with it. We're not hormonal teenagers & get plenty enough from each other...I feel anyway. i think I'll know what to do depending on how he reacts that way. Thanks for all the advice)

Part of me does feel like if I hold out for a bloke who doesn't dabble in this sort of thing then I'll be waiting a long time. Sad but it's how it seems sometimes.

But I've seen plenty of posts on here by women whose husbands 'get' feminism & don't feel the need to look at porn etc. So there must be a few.

DP is quite reasonable & usually open to both sides of an argument so he might understand. I'm just not looking forward to it grin

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 13:09:44

He did offer to 'unlike' the site...

I know, & he offered to quickly, without me saying much at all.

I just want to make sure I know what his views on it all really are. Din't get a chance to talk properly earlier.

I don't want to be too hard on the bloke...hence why I posted here asking for opinions/advice.

Things are great besides this & he seemed to understand earlier

Sorry to go on, I just posted because I really wasn't sure what to do or whether to bring it up etc. It has helped to have different perspectives on it.

I'm glad I came here first as the end result will probably be a lot better & the 'chat' will probably achieve more smile

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 13:33:16

Lots of people do look at porn but the difference is that, if their partner doesn't like it, they stop. They don't need to be policed, they just respect that it is having a negative impact on their relationship, so they don't do it.

It's only a problem if the person makes it a problem by either disrespecting their partner's wishes, or being so addicted that they choose to risk their relationship.

Thanks fairenuff - you worded it better than me!

CoteDAzur Thu 11-Apr-13 13:40:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur Thu 11-Apr-13 13:41:41

Eeek! Sorry, I posted this on the wrong thread. Reporting my post now.

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 13:42:37

While you're at it Orchard ask him views on lap dancing clubs. That's another one that comes up a lot on mn. Men going to clubs, having a naked lap dance and being surprised that their wife is not happy about it! Or wives being really surprised and shocked that their partner did this.

I am constantly surprised at how little couples talk to each other share their views and opinions on subjects like this. Surely each person should know what the dealbreakers are in a relationship, certainly before they have children together or get married? confused

Husbands thinking having a handjob, or exchanging photos isn't cheating, etc. Some days I think wtf is going on in these relationships! It never ceases to amaze me what some women will put up with.

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 13:44:16

Haha cote grin

No worries cote grin

After seeing those threads on here I did ask him about lap dancing etc & say what would be a dealbreaker for me so he knows exactly where I stand on that & would respect it if the situation came up (i.e. a stag do) or so he says! I even told him about one of the threads on here about it as I couldn't believe what I was reading!

Some of these threads in relationships have made me talk to him about things that I may not have otherwise. It's always good to know where each other stand & what the major dealbreakers are.

I've told him that if he even had an EA, let alone anything physical I'd never trust him again & would have to leave, even if I'd rather not, as no trust means no relationship.

(I have also loosely mentioned my views on porn but not directly asked him anything yet. He told me early on that he watches it when single and said 'not really' when I said does he watch it anymore).

^things aren't always that black & white, I know but I wanted to let him know partly for my sake so he could never say 'well you didn't tell me' like some blokes have, according to some of these threads.

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 13:58:46

Well 'not really' means yes. It's just a matter of how often and whether he is prepared to stop, I suppose.

I know it means he still does.

(We live apart but he stays here a lot so I know he can't be watching it more than once or twice a week to be honest).

I'd like to know how often he does properly though and discuss it with him so we can reach something that we're both comfortable with.

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 14:08:19

'Not really' isn't 'no' is it? It's well yes, but maybe not as often as before.

I think this is actually quite a tricky one...is it up to you to control what your partner looks at when they are not with you?

Guy I'm seeing suggested we watch porn together, of my choice. I freaked initially (in private...well discussed with my friend) and then told him 'no thanks, I don't like porn' and he said 'ok fair enough' and has never mentioned it again. I don't have a strong view about what he does when he's not with me, we don't live together and I'm comfortable with his attitude to women and our sex-life. I wouldn't like it though if he was looking at pics of other naked women while he was supposed to be doing something with me.

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 14:08:50

Sorry cross-posted on the what 'not really' means thing!

^ that's the thing, whilst I personally don't agree with it, I don't mind him watching it, sparsely. Plenty of people do.

I would mind if he: started losing interest in our sex life because he was getting his kicks elsewhere, couldn't get off without it (which he says he can) or tried to use it to make me feel inferior (sounds silly but some people's DPs have done this according to MN!).

I know you can watch it and not have a horrid view of women or be a sleaze...as I have plenty of female friends that watch the odd bit here & there.

(I still plan on saying that I personally don't agree with it at all, then hearing whatever he has to say on it & taking it from there. I don't want to police him & shouldn't have to really)

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 14:18:20

is it up to you to control what your partner looks at when they are not with you?

No, absolutely not. He should control himself. He makes a choice.

He either does something knowing it could risk the relationship, or he doesn't.

But you will need to be very clear on what is a dealbreaker for you op.

So if, for example, you see porn use as exploiting women and therefore your dp has a lack of regard for women, doesn't consider them equal to men, can be viewed as sex objects, etc. then you wouldn't want to be with a man like that anyway.

If you see porn use as acceptable as long as it doesn't impact on you, then him wanking over naked women on his laptop in the comfort of his own home probably won't bother you.

I suppose i'm not sure if you can watch it without having a negative view of women, as women watch it too etc.

I suppose I want to know if he can understand why I view it the way I do.

It will be a dealbreaker if he can't.

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 14:24:33

I'm kind of thinking though that if I guy said to me 'if you look at Daniel Craig in his swimming trunks one more time then the relationship is over' I might then say 'away you go...get over yourself'....rather than 'I value the relationship much more than I do looking at DC in his trunks so I'll stop doing that'.

This is more naked photography than even soft porn that we're talking about here isn't it? At least with Suicide Girls.

I think of looking at 100% naked girls as soft porn (as he has searched for a few of them, which brings up naked photos).

And I don't look at porn myself or naked blokes in any other context.

I know everyone has the odd 'thing' for famous people. We both tease each other about the actors in Game Of Thrones for example. I'm not an absolute prude! grin

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 14:29:35

My personal view is that anyone contributing to the sex industry is involving themselves in the exploitation of women.

Doesn't matter if they are male or female. Women watching porn are no different than men in that they don't know whether the women being filmed having sex have actually consented.

Most porn debates like this are all about the people watching/not watching it. No-one thinks about 'behind the scenes', either because they don't care or they believe the hype.

Traffiking is very real and if a man told you "Make it look good, be convincing. I know where your children live" ... most people watching would never know, or even give it a second thought.

These people are mothers, daughters, wives. How many men watching porn would like their mates to watch their mum doing it, or their daughters. It's so very "I'm alright Jack" - they simply don't care.

That's why I wouldn't be with a man who watched porn. I wouldn't try to control him or tell him what to do, I just wouldn't be with him.

I just want to discuss it tonight, get across how I view it, hear how he views it, then take it from there (as a lot depends on his reaction).

If he's not a defensive/dismissive git about it then there's room for compromise.

If he is then at least I know now, rather than years down the line smile

^ hell yes to the trafficking industry. You just don't know with a lot of it & I bet he's not even considered that, so I'll be bringing that up.

(The more I got into feminism as a teen the more I learned that it has a nasty underbelly that people seem very ignorant of).

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 14:35:22

I might then say 'away you go...get over yourself'....rather than 'I value the relationship much more than I do looking at DC in his trunks so I'll stop doing that'

Really? You don't value your relationship more than dc in his trunks?

Is that true? I am shock tbh.

If my dh seriously said he valued any woman in a swimming costume more than our relationship I would tell him to jog on.

Surely you are not serious?

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 14:36:06

I think most of the debates get onto the making of it tbh...

The sex industry in undoubtedly dubious, unregulated and exploitative.

But there are also women who are quite happy to have their photos taken. Have a look at the Suicide Girls facebook page and there are lots of comments from women saying 'how can I be a SG?'

Lovingfreedom Thu 11-Apr-13 14:38:24

Yes I am serious...I am not interested in being with someone who tries to tell me what I can and can't do.

I've had a good look. I do feel that just because girls are willing, doesn't make it less sleazy, in places.

If the tables were turned & I wanted to be with DP then I'd at least try to understand & not do anything he wasn't comfortable with.

I run this page too so part of me feels like I'm not staying true to myself if I say nothing!

Fairenuff Thu 11-Apr-13 14:46:37

Well, there you go op. Two posters with vastly different opinions and boundaries. Just goes to show how personal and individual it is. Go with your instincts. It's no good settling for something that makes you unhappy.

Hope your talk goes well and you come to some sort of resolution.

Thank you smile

Each to their own outside of our relationship! I just can't pretend it's not an issue really.

eccentrica Thu 11-Apr-13 16:18:05

Thanks smile

It didn't seem very 'empowering' to me when I had a good look at the FB page but that's pretty bad!

(scuse the namechange...is something to do with another thread)!

Right...DP will be here in half an hour.

Must. Not. Chicken. Out!

Thank you for all your advice. It went really well.

He said since we got together he's not really felt 'the need' and when I showed him a few links about trafficking etc he said he'd not thought about it and was pretty disgusted.

Glad I talked to him about it! smile

Doubtfuldaphne Thu 11-Apr-13 21:43:30

I used to be a suicide girl ten years ago! It's more of a fashion thing in a way- it's so mainstream it's like it's 'ok/cool' to like it
It's tasteful in comparison to a lot of stuff out there
I know loads of girls who 'like' them on fb too

I say good on him for choosing to like sg and not some trashy playboy bikini models!

Lovingfreedom Fri 12-Apr-13 10:03:10

Glad it went well OP! Obv only got what you've written on here to go on but can't help feeling that he is a decent guy. smile

smile

EmmaBemma Fri 12-Apr-13 21:14:09

"I say good on him for choosing to like sg and not some trashy playboy bikini models!"

There's no real difference to be honest - I agree with eccentrica a few pages back. There's nothing about suicide girls that celebrates "alternative" beauty - the girls are all conventionally attractive and conventionally slim, they just have tattoos and a few (but not too many!) piercings. It's a massive industry now, run by a bloke, for blokes, and has naff all to do with female empowerment.

^ have to say I do agree with emma & others who've posted.

Each to their own but I just think it's different types of the same thing.

(Plus, until someone posted on here I didn't realize the site is actually owned by a bloke & there've been a few SGs to come out of that scene and speak up about a few dodgy goings on).

cjel Fri 12-Apr-13 22:28:58

Faire I so wish you'd been on another thread I was on a while ago, I was the only one who thought porn might be abusive. I was told of course its consensual as two grown adults sign contracts to agree what they are doing. I thought I was a dinasour for thinking porn of any sort was wrong.I was told my view was twisted!! Its made me feel so good to hear your view.

Fairenuff Fri 12-Apr-13 22:41:25

It's amazing how ignorant some people claim to be. There are always people ready to promote the 'happy hooker' myth. There's no point in trying to educate people if they're just going to shout you down though cjel. There may have been lurkers who might think twice, though, so always worth putting your point across I feel. You never know who it might help.

cjel Fri 12-Apr-13 22:55:24

Hadn't thought of that, thanks I will keep trying , when appropriate. If it helps one thats worth it.

Lovingfreedom Fri 12-Apr-13 23:00:14

Those who are completely against porn...is it ok to let a guy take pornographic photos of you? Or is that abusive or exploitative? What about sharing the pics on a public website? These are real questions I don't know the answer to.

cjel Fri 12-Apr-13 23:06:15

Personally, I have had my photo taken by my DH of 30yrs but deleated straight away, Wouldn't feel comfy any one looking at them after even me and DH because I'd just feel silly> Don't know if that helps?

Fairenuff Fri 12-Apr-13 23:09:23

If he is taking them of you, then you know that you are consenting. However, many women are in relationships where the man, through being controlling & emotionally abusive, has ground her down so that she may well consent, even though she doesn't really want to.

It's a bit like having sex with your partner when you're not really in the mood, just to keep them happy. Lots of women do that too so, whilst they are technically consenting, in reality, they don't feel strong enough to say no and it's easier to go along with it to keep the peace.

If you are genuinely able to consent, and want to, then of course it's fine. Whether you want them on a public website is another matter. Most women would not want their partner showing the pictures to anyone else. Most women, who have a choice would not want their picture on public view.

Lovingfreedom Fri 12-Apr-13 23:17:18

Is there an element of objectification though? If you are the subject...or object of the photograph even if you have given full consent and there was no coercion. Is that objectification of our bodies still something that we should discourage, as feminists or thinking women?

cjel Fri 12-Apr-13 23:26:25

Yes I think there probably is, but then how far do you go with any sex acts between different positions etc that may be the start of something degrading - there is a line somewhere and it has to do with the nature of the relationship I think. As my relationship of 30 years was only what dh and I both enjoyed it didn't seem objectifying. If it was between 2 people who didn't know or trust each other and was then shared outside the relationship that is different to my mind.I don't know how my relationship with dh that we both enjoy needs to be discouraged. No other women or men know about it?

Fairenuff Fri 12-Apr-13 23:28:52

This would be part of sexual intimacy between a couple in a loving relationship and in a safe environment. If you felt objectified, then, yes, that would be something you should put a stop to.

cjel Fri 12-Apr-13 23:29:32

Fairenuff you say it so much better than me!!

Lovingfreedom Fri 12-Apr-13 23:39:31

I went to see The Burlesque Show tonight with a friend. It was a primarily female audience and it was, IMO, ropey. One of the most glaring features was that all the women in the show took off their clothes (not full nudity but strip-tease to g-strings and nipple tassles), but none of the men did (ok one got top-less with a woman). The whole Burlesque thing is supposedly empowering or somehow different from professional stripping/sex industry stuff...but I'm confused about all this too tbh....

At one point a drunk (female) in the audience shouted out 'I'd love to spank the arse on that' referring to a woman on stage wearing lingerie and stockings who then did a strip tease routine. I'm confused. This seems very similar to how blokes might behave at a strip club.

My current relationship (after abusive marriage) does seem to involve an element of him objectifying my body (I'm not that arrogant btw...I have an ok figure and I'm comfortable but I'm over 40, 2 natural births, breastfed etc...I'm normal!!). I enjoy what we do...but I do wonder how this fits with a feminist ideal. This is a minefield isn't it?

cjel Fri 12-Apr-13 23:47:30

I would say that anything that shows sex like porn/burlesque is ropey. It is said to be empowering and only done by women who consent etc etc, but I think its all wrong. As for any relationship between two people in private I'd say that anything that makes a person feel objectified or uncomfortable isn't good. Anything in a relationship should make you feel good. Sometimes you may feel good but think you shouldn't. It can be difficult especially if you've been in an abusive relationship before, if you enjoy what you do then I'd say its ok? Doesn't the feminist ideal say that we shouldn't be abused and if you don't feel abused ??

Fairenuff Fri 12-Apr-13 23:59:54

It's difficult if you've been in an abusive relationship because you don't always trust your gut instinct. A woman will ignore her natural instincts and put what the man wants first, because she is trying to please him. He will become ever more demanding and no matter what she does, it's never good enough.

This is what erodes self esteem and self confidence. Many women in the sex industry feel like this and don't even realise sometimes that they actually do have a choice. Many others, of course, don't have a choice.

In a relationship it's best to trust your own judgement. If it feels wrong, or uncomfortable, or you even question it a tiny bit, then I would say, don't do it. Not until you are sure that you are truly happy. What if your very good friend asked your opinion, or your daughter. What would you advise them, that is sometimes a good guide.

I know a burlesque dancer, she doesn't strip to a g-string, she uses those big feathers to cover everything up. That's the art of the dance. Otherwise, they are just stripping tbh. Her parents goes to watch her dance sometimes and take their friends. Her husband goes to if it's a special night for her. They are all completely comfortable with it. It is a very theatrical performance.

There is a difference between admiring and objectifying Loving. Your dp presumably loves you and is caring and considerate and would stop whatever he was doing the moment you indicated him to? That's not objectification, that's a natural, loving relationship. If he is doing/saying anything you're not entirely comfortable with, tell him to stop. If he doesn't then it's a problem.

for me, I can't be 'ok' with my partner watching more than a little porn and am thrilled DP watches less than I actually thought & is more reasonable about it than I expected him to be.

This is because of my personal views on porn & some bad experiences with a nasty ex who was into all that very much so & I strongly believe it affected the way he viewed & valued women as a result.

I posted here because I wasn't sure if I should let it lie or bring it up with DP, as it's such a controversial subject & I find it hard sometimes not to be biased because of that ex.

I do think that couples sort of objectify each other a little, but it's a very different sort of objectification. Not all objectification is negative but I feel the type that's encouraged by porn/glamour shots etc is .

I hope that makes sense smile

^ what fair said - it's hard to objectify someone you actually know or are in a relationship with though some people still manage it

After posting here I realized I needed to bring it up as it was really bothering me and actually if he respected me & my feelings he wouldn't want to do something that made me so uncomfortable. I was right, and luckily he's a good'un in that respect smile

(and when I say objectify in the couple's sense I don't mean to say it's all the time. I think at first, when you're in the honeymoon period and you don't know the other person that well yet and are at it all the time it's probably easy to sometimes forget there's more to them...sometimes).

cjel Sat 13-Apr-13 09:31:27

Yoni - I have been lurking on the other thread and now can't take what you say seriously with out smiling about that thread!!! I think that is the whole key though isn't it - if things are makeing you feel uncomfortable even if it is because of ex then it is worth talking about it with DP and then you will understand what you don't like, why and what he feels about it.xx

My favourite classic thread I think!

And that's the point really. If I was doing something that he was uncomfortable with I'd rather he told me, so we could have a chat about it & I could stop whatever it was (as long as it wasn't an abusive/controlling request i.e ditch all your family & friends! ifswim).

I just wasn't sure if I was being wildly unreasonable myself, hence why I posted smile

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