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Previously uninterested father of baby 'wants to talk'

(316 Posts)
ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 12:45:51

I had a very casual relationship for a few months at the end of last year. He was sleeping with other women and I didn't want a relationship with him, so I ended it. Shortly after I found out I was pregnant. My immediate decision was that I wanted to keep the baby.

I told him this and his initial instinct was to say that he didn't want another child (he already has a daughter) and to accuse me of planning the pregnancy (I didn't). This didn't bother me as I didn't really expect full support.

However, he then escalated to barraging me with text messages trying to emotionally blackmail me into having an abortion with all sorts of rubbish. I refused to give into the pressure.

He then threatened to move away and change his name so that I could not force him to pay child maintenance. I gave him a chance to reflect and sent him a single message after the 12 week scan asking if he would accept some financial responsibility or if I should involve the CSA. There was no answer.

I accepted that he would not be a part of the baby's life and instead began to sort out my finances and future childcare so that I was prepared for when the baby comes.

He has now messaged me over a month later to ask for a meeting to discuss the baby. I have agreed but do not trust him. In my mind, he would have no contact with the baby and I was fine with that. I have agreed to meet because 1. He IS the father, regardless of whether I like him or not 2. It will be easier to have him willingly support his child than to involve the CSA.

I have been polite to him and answered some questions, but I am confused with some of what he has said. He asked for a picture of the pregnancy, so I sent him a copy of the scan pic. He then texted back to say no, he meant a picture of me pregnant (?!).

I said that I wasn't sure when I would be available to meet as I planned to move next week. He asked where and why, and I told him that I needed more space now that I was having a baby (I currently live in a one bed flat). He wanted to know who with and I told him it would just be me and baby. Next message asks if I have a boyfriend. I ignore this, so he asks again. I ask why it's relevant and he says that it is to him.

Now he is messaging me as if things were like they were back when we dated, asking me what I'm reading, that he has done this... Etc. I am soooo confused as to what on earth he is playing at considering his earlier behaviour. I am also suspicious as to why he has had a change of heart about the baby.

I know this is selfish, but I really was happy at the thought of being a single mum as I meant I wouldn't have to deal with him and would have the baby all to myself. I don't want him in the baby's life (even though he has a right to be involved) as he is a terrible role model- a serial womaniser who casually uses drugs and who publicly holds some very controversial views, not to mention his earlier behaviour.

I guess my question is (and thank you if you have actually read this far!), what do you think his motivations might be (I cannot work them out) and what should I say when I meet him?

squeakytoy Sun 07-Apr-13 12:56:06

He doesnt believe the baby is his. Or he doesnt believe you are really pregnant.

He isnt interested in the baby. He still doesnt want anything to do with it.

clam Sun 07-Apr-13 12:58:19

Agree with squeaky. And as you were less-than-forthcoming on info, he's decided to feign friendship in the hope that you might let slip something useful.

SundaeGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 13:02:07

Agree. He isn't really interested, he's hoping to get out of his commitments. My advice would be to deal with him only over support not over boyfriends or sending him pregnancy pics.

flossieraptor Sun 07-Apr-13 13:03:07

If you prefer not to have him involved as a father you may need to not take money from him.

SanctiMOMious Sun 07-Apr-13 13:03:38

agree with squeeky. this is not a newfound interest in fatherhood. he hopes to be reassured it's not his problem. he is stopping juuuust thiiiis short of calling you a liar. keep your wits about u.

AThingInYourLife Sun 07-Apr-13 13:09:28

Oh well done, squeaky.

I couldn't figure out the picture of you pregnant.

But it must be to be sure you are pregnant.

pigsDOfly Sun 07-Apr-13 13:14:31

Hard to say what his motives are, but I'd be very reluctant to meet him, if I were in your position. Have you asked him why the change of mind?

I'd be inclined to keep it polite but official. Don't let him have your new address and don't invite him to your home.

squeakytoy Sun 07-Apr-13 13:17:18

"It will be easier to have him willingly support his child than to involve the CSA."

That isnt going to happen. He has no intention of supporting this child. The whole tale has all the hallmarks of being a Jeremy Kyle story, complete with the mandatory DNA results.

No doubt there was a "contraception fail". At least I hope that is the reason.

I feel sorry for a child being born in these circumstances to be honest. sad

VeremyJyle Sun 07-Apr-13 13:23:13

My advice would be to take your time, my belief is nine months is a long time. I took the view 7 months is a long way away, 6 months is a long way away, 5 months etc. I was right, after much heartache and rollercoasters, I cut all contact when I was eight months gone (after persistently trying to engage him) and enjoyed the last few weeks on my own. My DS is now nearly two weeks and ExP doesn't even know he has been born, his lack of interest has put paid to that.
Don't stress or over-analyse anything now, wait til your little one has actually arrived, by then the lie of the land will have become alot clearer! I wish I hadn't speng my pg so worried about ExP's attitudes and actions.

VeremyJyle Sun 07-Apr-13 13:25:22

Just to clarify, I've not been malicious in not telling him DS has arrived, but if he replied to any of my attempts to contact him or enquired himself theeeen he would know iyswim smile

AThingInYourLife Sun 07-Apr-13 13:28:12

I agree with not giving him any personal information.

pooka Sun 07-Apr-13 13:37:26

I seem to be reading op differently.

I think that he wants to be sure you are pregnant and that the baby is his. This seems fair enough to me, if you have already raised the issue of child maintenance.

You might want the baby all to yourself, but if he is the father of the child, your child's relationship with his/her father is more important than you having the baby all to yourself. He doesn't sound like a catch, but at the same time, he is the father, he will be paying towards maintenance and you chose to continue the pregnancy despite your concerns about him as a father.

I think the boyfriend questions is him hoping to 'pin the baby' on someone else. If you had a boyfriend and was moving in with him, it would give weight to 'its not mine' strategy he is no doubt planning.

I would remain calm and limit casual conversation.

I also agree that you may need to plan for him to have some contact with the baby, its only reasonable as you are planning on getting him to be financially committed to the baby.

GroupieGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 13:39:48

Oh come off it squeaky - accidents do happen, and women become pregnant under all sorts of circumstances. The OP didn't ask you to feel sorry for her child, and for the record, there's no need to feel sorry for mine.

OP my daughter was born under very similar circumstances. I try not to engage with her father unless absolutely neccessary. He has agreed to pay £100 a month, in the last few months (my daughter is 3). I rarely get it. I don't care.

He also didn't believe I was pregnant or that it was his. Again, I didn't care. My advice would be to do what's best for you and the baby, in my case this was enjoying doing it on my own and keeping contact with the father to a minimum. Only you can decide what your situation warrants. Good luck!

kalidanger Sun 07-Apr-13 15:04:04

Arcane Youve decided to be, and are happy about being, a single mother and you're moving and getting yourself organised. This is your path. Don't let his flapping from the sidelines distract or confuse you.

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 15:36:12

Thank you all for the advice, I agree that he isn't actually interested. I actually feel a bit stupid now for not guessing that the pregnancy pic was meant to be 'proof', though I thought the scan pic with my (very uncommon) name at the top would suffice.

I have messaged him to ask what exactly he wants to talk about and I certainly won't be revealing anything personal not relating to the baby.

Groupie and Veremy thanks especially for your stories, it's good to feel that there are other good mothers out there who don't need the father around in order for their children to have happy lives. For what's it worth Squeaky, I don't think my baby needs your pity: I'm a responsible woman who has a stable career and plenty of support. There are worse circumstances to be born into smile

SanctiMOMious Sun 07-Apr-13 15:37:56

Squeaky, I had an accident once, but not a baby thankfully. I won't elaborate. It was the man's fault. He couldn't seem to maintain an erection successfully without a condom. It's very embarrassing to talk about this stuff in real life. You can hardly REDEEM yourself by telling the judgemental old pearl wearers that you thought/believed he had a condom on. If I'd had a baby, forever, people would have been mean spirited about me, oh yeah, contraception fail, oh yeah! But the man was to blame. But a woman left holding a baby in those circumstances can hardly redeem herself. That kind of 'talk' necessary to clear the record, to spell out why it was not a calculated msitake, well it's eeeeooow yeuck talk and it is not going to redeem your reputation.

Ironically I have two planned children with a man who has a personality disorder. But that's another story. Planned is only the start of the story.

OP, your child will be fine. A lot of married people need to believe that their children have an advantage, that the children of single parent families are to be pitied, but study after study shows that it's poverty that holds a child back. Single parents may be more likely to have fewer aspirations for their child because more middle class mothers would terminate, but that doesn't mean that if a mother with family support and aspirations for her child is going to fit the stereotype.

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 15:40:02

Just one last thing, should I pursue him for money through the CSA? I feel obligated to provide for my baby as best as I can (including making him send the money that they will be entitled to). I can financially support the two of us on my salary alone and I sort of envisioned the maintenance money going into a savings account for when the baby is older. Should I forget this, cut off all contact and raise the baby on my terms?

SanctiMOMious Sun 07-Apr-13 15:48:30

I don't know. For 6 years I went it alone with no financial contribution. I was motivated to pursue maintenance because I knew the 'spin' he was planning to give my decision not to pursue maintenance. Something along the lines of it was easier for me to collect benefits. Which is bullshit, but I wanted to make sure that he couldn't fool himself or the children in the future. However, he is a wealthy professional and our children were planned. Even with that being the case, it's an uncomfortable feeling. HAND ON HEART if I only had had the one and so therefore my own career had been uniterrupted and nto so badly damaged, i think I would prefer to go it alone and never have to worry about jumping through somebody else's hoop.

If you can afford not to, then don't. I am always anxious waiting to see if it's just late or not coming at all or whatgame is he playing etc etc.....

I would take the route of raising the baby on your own, name him or her without compromise, give the child your sur name, pay for everything, make all the decisions.............

Your conscience is clear. YOu told him. He bailed out.

The other thing about maintenance is that no matter what he earns, there is no pretence at equalising the sacrifices of parenting. What would probably happen would be that he'd be ordered to pay something small like 200 a month and he'd feel like he was giving you ten pounds of flesh. Seriously, when you're running a household, 200 might help a bit but it's not going to be that much help long term. even if he earns a lot of money as he already has one dd i don't think his contribution is going ot be worth the pay off of being in receipt of it. I can't afford pride. i've two kids, nad my career fucked! but if i were in your shoes i would say 'no i've thought about it carefully and like i said, this really was an accident, you are not the man I would have chosen as a father to my child. i can be mother and father to my child. but as a courtesy i am just updating you. '

DontmindifIdo Sun 07-Apr-13 15:48:42

you don't know what the future holds for you, so I'd start with the CSA, because if he's already paying it and you are able to save it, if something like redundancy or illness that stops you working happens to you, you won't at that point have to start tracking him down.

Plus, never underestimate how much DCs cost in reality, you never know how useful that extra money will be. Even if it just means you can make choices about music/sports lessons, or not feeling you have to go for the cheapest possible childcare option if you arne't comfortable with it etc.

If you can save the money, great, you get to say the one thing their dad did for them was make sure they left uni debt free etc.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sun 07-Apr-13 15:49:10

I wouldn't actually meet him, tbh. I would say email me with a list of your questions and I will answer any that I feel are any of your business.

I will be happy to allow a paternity test when the baby arrives so that it can be established that you are the father, at which point all issues of contact and maintenance can be discussed, but given your previous attitude, I am unwilling to meet with you in person at this time.

The grammar in the above is shocking grin but I'm sure you get the drift.

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 16:51:03

Earlier posters were spot on: he responded to my message telling me that he didn't believe I was pregnant. I cannot think of any possible reason why he thinks I would lie about this. I've made it clear to him that I don't intend to claim maintenance payments until the baby is actually born, so I haven't asked him for any support (emotional or financial) until that point.

Sancti I had the same thought as you: it won't be fair on a child to introduce their father and then for that father to later change his mind again on a whim. I will be the constant in the baby's life and as I far as I'm concerned, I think that will be enough.

I'm going to take your wise advice Don'tMind: you're right, I can't predict the future and that money may be needed to provide the baby with everything they need in life.

I've sent him the message that I'll wait until the baby is born before setting things in motion. He can message me if he wants to know specifically about the baby, otherwise I'm not interested.

Thanks again for all your advice, it helps to have people who know how men like this think.

DistanceCall Sun 07-Apr-13 16:52:51

If you take his child maintenance money, then he will be entitled to contact with the child. Which is only fair, in my opinion.

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 16:56:07

And if you're still reading this, this was his response:

'fuck you, sperm thief'.

That massively cheered me up! grin

DistanceCall Sun 07-Apr-13 16:56:23

And of course, you do know that your child will ask about his/her father at some point? What will you say?

AThingInYourLife Sun 07-Apr-13 16:59:51

If he knows the child is his he will be able to pursue contact regardless of whether the OP accepts maintenance.

The only way to keep him out of the child's life was not to tell him about the pregnancy.

And that ship has sailed.

SanctiMOMious Sun 07-Apr-13 17:00:22

omg! That tells you everything you need to know doesn't it?

If you later do have a paternity test, make it clear that you have no doubts. Don't collude with the idea that there is doubt per se. You are in no doubt.

AThingInYourLife Sun 07-Apr-13 17:01:58

Sperm thief?

I'm sure if you were going to be nicking sperm you would have chosen a better specimen than him hmm

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 17:05:36

Of course I will grant him access if he wants it, but I will insist that it is supervised unless he provides proof that he is drug free. I'm not an idiot: I know that he is entitled to access by law.

I plan on telling the child that not all people have a mum and a dad (true) when he/she is younger, and when they are mature enough to deal with it I will tell him/her the truth: I didn't plan to get pregnant, but it didn't matter to me because I love you with all my heart. Your father wasn't interested and I didn't let that stop me from bringing you up. I think that's fairly reasonable. Of course there's plenty of time to refine it as the baby isn't even here yet!

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sun 07-Apr-13 17:08:14

I think that tells you that it was wise to not meet with him.

He would possibly have been very nasty indeed.

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 17:11:20

AThingInYourLife I'm ashamed to admit that I just used your line as my response blush

AThingInYourLife Sun 07-Apr-13 17:43:13


Well what's done is done, but try to keep your distance from him from now on.

He's not a very nice man and you have an important connection to him.

Stay distant and business-like and have as little to do with him as is humanly possible.

Congratulations BTW smile

skyebluesapphire Sun 07-Apr-13 17:52:31

Sperm thief?! If he didnt want to give it away he should have covered up!

What a twat! He can think what he likes, a DNA test will prove it.

Can you even name him on the birth certificate without him being there, or his permission?
Sounds like you are better off without his input into yours and the child's life OP

JJonahJamesonJr Sun 07-Apr-13 19:24:59

He gave his sperm away too easily I reckon, for a man who is so resistant to fatherhood.

3MonthMaid Sun 07-Apr-13 19:42:08

I was in a not dissimilar situation too (completely different now in my case)...

Basically you can't put him on the birth certificate without his actually being there.

Money-wise, you can claim support from him regardless of whether he is on the birth cert. if he contests paternity the CSA will fund a paternity test but if he is found to be the father he will have to repay them for it!

All of this is done anonymously I.e they not tell him where you are, and you all go to your own GPs for the spit test.

All things considered I would cut contact at this point completely. When your baby is born you can think about how you want to proceed.

Sadly, in terms of what to tell your child about their dad, you can tell the truth. That he didn't want I be a daddy (or something like that).

GroupieGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 20:15:29

No, you can't name him on the birth certificate in his absence but then why would you want to?!

Good for you Arcane - and congratulations!

GroupieGirl Sun 07-Apr-13 20:18:47

And as for what to tell your child, you'll figure it out as you go along. My three-year-old calls my partner Daddy, which is enough for now, and while we know that at some point we'll have to explain why she has about a dozen grandparents, there's no point stressing (or letting other people stress you) out about it until it happens.

Bogeyface Sun 07-Apr-13 20:28:39

If you take his child maintenance money, then he will be entitled to contact with the child. Which is only fair, in my opinion.

Wrong. Utterly Wrong.

A child is entitled to an ongoing relationship with their parents, when it is in the best interests of the child (so not abusive etc). Paying child support does not "buy" access to a child, in the same way that not paying it doesnt mean you can withdraw access. Money and access are totally seperate, a court will not take into account whether the absent parent is paying up when deciding on access. The only time there is a slight crossover is if the child spends over nights with the absent parent, in which case there will be a slight reduction in maintenance, but thats all.

Jaeme Sun 07-Apr-13 20:46:47

Guy sounds like a complete and utter dipshit.

You can't name them on the birth certificate without them present if you're not married but you can have it changed later, its a form you sign with a justice of the peace. The form is then sent off and BC is changed.

My 'dad' did similar to this telling my mum to get rid of me etc etc. He wasn't on certificate as my mum didnt know you both had to go and had left it too late. Form was never sent off so still listed as an unknown and in a way I'm glad as he's never been around much and you can't miss what you don't have.

ArcaneAsylum Sun 07-Apr-13 21:11:12

Thanks again for all the responses. I have made the decision not to contact him myself and to get in contact with the CSA once the baby is born.

His last text was to tell me that he is moving to Libya hmm and would have told me this when we met. I haven't responded because I'm tempted to say good riddance there really is no point engaging with him.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sun 07-Apr-13 21:50:46

Oh god. That's pathetic, isn't it? Moving to libya. bollocks is he!

Vijac Sun 07-Apr-13 22:05:06

I'm probably being devil's advocate here but is it possible that he has had time to calm down and come to terms with the unwanted pregnancy and is now thinking he may want to be involved and even give your relationship a try for the baby?

Aside from that, I know that it's hurtful that he wanted an abortion and pressurised you but I think you should try to maintain friendly relations as he may have something to offer your child as a father/male role model/extra caregiver/babysitter etc. Also, strained relations never make anyone's life happier or easier. Enjoy your pregnancy, a lovely baby is on the way! x

Vijac Sun 07-Apr-13 22:09:05

Oops missed the last bit. Ok, so sounds like he won't be around a lot and you are unlikely to be able to force any money out of him. I think friendly, relaxed relationship with him is still the best way to go, as hard as it may be.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 22:36:02

I will get flamed for this, but -

You have sex with each other with/without contraception, who knows. You are pregnant, he makes it clear from the beginning he is totally against it. You decide to proceed with the pregnancy, he has no choice though he has made it clear to you it is not what he wants.
Now you are going to go through the CSA and get maintenance from him for the next 18 odd years.

This happens all too often and even if he is a dick, I feel for him. It IS a kind of theft in a way.

Have some pride and bring up the child you wanted without going through the CSA. You said yourself you can afford it. I can see why he is angry enough to resort to calling you 'sperm thief'.

colditz Sun 07-Apr-13 22:37:29

She didn't steal the sperm, that would have been rape. The sperm was a gift freely given.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 22:39:33

With which she is now able to claim money from him monthly for the next 18 years.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 22:42:28

I do wonder at the attitude that every man everywhere, every time he has sex, is at risk of being financially liable for 18 years if the woman falls pregnant and decides to continue the pregnancy against his wishes. Surely some sort of moral boundary must come in at some point from the woman. I think so in this case.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 22:43:22

* '...against his wishes, and he must be an arse hole if he gets angry about it.'

Jojay Sun 07-Apr-13 22:52:54

'Have some pride and bring up the child you wanted without going through the CSA. You said yourself you can afford it.'

Actually, I completely agree Poppylemons

Sunnywithshowers Sun 07-Apr-13 22:58:59

It's not theft poppylemons. He's an adult who made an active choice not to use contraception and can't have been unaware that there may be consequences. If he didn't want to be a dad he could have insisted on a condom.

Bollocks aboutthe OP's 'pride' - the child needs food, clothing and so on.

kickassangel Sun 07-Apr-13 23:00:20

It's not like it's a secret that sex leads to babies. If a consenting adult has sex, they have to beware that they could become a parent. If they really don't want that to happen, then they can't have sex.

Even if their partner lies about contraception, they can hardly claim it was a surprise that sex can lead to babies. He had sex, heis a parent to a child and should be 50% responsible for it.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:05:14

'the child needs food, clothing and so on.'
...which she said she can afford, she has a steady career etc.

She wants to bring up this child on her own, doesn't even like the father, he made it clear from the start he did not want a child with her, she chose to proceed regardless. I am confused as to why she feels she is morally correct in pursuing him through the CSA here.

Okay so the sperm was 'freely given' but I do not agree in this situation that he should necessarily be made to pay for next 18 years for what became of it, something he did not intend or want, but which she does want, and can afford.

jamtoast12 Sun 07-Apr-13 23:07:04

If he's as bad as he sounds I would not go through CSA. In fact I'd cut all contact otherwise you'll be dealing with him for years.

One of my friends had a similar situation, she moved away, didnt tell him where (he didnt care) and had had nothing to do with him since, no contact worries, no broken promises, no man debating schools, religion etc. do you want that for both of your future?

Courts may not agree with supervised access without proof, them theres his extended family.. would they want to be involved? id leve well alone. If you can afford it I'd go alone as he's going to cost you much more emotionally than the csa cash.

Corygal Sun 07-Apr-13 23:07:42

Poppy - the boundary is there & generally referred to as contraception.

Sunnywithshowers Sun 07-Apr-13 23:09:17

He is liable to pay for 50% of the child's expenses, whether or not the OP can afford it.

Sex leads to babies. Like kickass said above, it's not exactly a secret. If he didn't want to be a father, he should have insisted on a condom. The onus is on both of them, not just the mother.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:10:59

'if they dont want to be a dad they shouldnt have sex'

Reality check...I really don't think in the heat of the moment (basic biology, we all know how powerful our drive is for sex, particularly men) 99% of men think "hold on, I must banish this erection, this could possibly lead me to becoming financially liable for a child for the next god knows how many years. I'm not in a relationship with her and I'm sure she wouldn't want to continue a pregnancy as a single mum in any event, she might even take the morning after pill. No, best not risk it. Sorry love."

i just think it's totally disproportionate and in THIS particular case the mother has made it clear she is comfortable enough financially to have the luxury of making this decision, to not pursue him for money.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:13:22

OP, were you using contraception or not?

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:15:35

Its quite simple poppy he should have used a condom if he really didn't want a child. But ultimately when people have sex theory know a baby may be the end result and they are responsible for that child end of.

kickassangel Sun 07-Apr-13 23:16:21

It doesn't matter if she was. HE chose to have sex. HE is becoming a parent. HE has a responsibility as the consequence of HIS actions.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:22:40

But SHE doesn't want him involved and HE doesn't want to be involved and made that clear from the moment she told him.

If she can afford to raise this child without his financial help then she shouldn't pursue him for money as long as they both mutually maintain they do not want him in this childs life.

A man who really REALLY doesn't want to father a child/any more children should have a vasectomy or at the very least take care of contraception himself. This man didn't, so he's financially liable, end of.

Sunnywithshowers Sun 07-Apr-13 23:25:25

Reality check: Men and women like sex. Both are capable of making stupid decisions in the heat of the moment.

Both are responsible for conceiving this child, both are responsible for its upkeep. It's irrelevant whether the OP is earning enough to cover costs for both, as the child's biological father is also responsible (legally and morally) for 50% of the costs of its upkeep.

Why are you so keen to let him off the hook anyway?

jamtoast12 Sun 07-Apr-13 23:33:38

I can see Poppy's view. He made his opinion clear and she chose to go ahead regardless. I genuinely think its unfair to go ahead with a pregnancy a man doesn't want and more so to expect him to pay for your choice for the next 18 years.

MrsSpagBol Sun 07-Apr-13 23:40:02

Jamtoast are u serious? Unfair to continue with a pregnancy a man does not want? But fair to force a woman who doesnt want to terminate to have one?

If you dont want a kid, dont f**k about without protection. Simple.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:41:49

His choice not to have a baby ended at the moment he had sex without taking responsibility for his own fertility.

As he didn't, a baby was conceived.

Once that baby is conceived, the WOMAN has the final say, as the baby is IN the woman's body, and she has autonomy to say what is going to happen (or not) to her own body.

His chance to prevent a baby ended the moment he chose to have sex without taking responsibility for his own fertility.

The baby IS going to be here. Therefore he is equally financially responsible for it. To shirk your financial responsibility towards your child simply because you had changed your mind at a point when it was no longer YOUR choice to do so about creating a baby is morally repugnant.

He is equally responsible for this baby's conception, and he is equally responsible for this baby financially.

In future, if he doesn't want any more babies, then he needs to take personal responsibility for his own fertility, and either have a vasectomy, or use a condom.

Surely that is quite simple?

Even my 11yo DS1 can grasp the concept that HE, and nobody else, is responsible for his own fertility, and once a baby is conceived he would have no further control over any decisions that the mother of his child-to-be would make over HER body.

If an 11yo can understand this simple principle, why can't a grown man?!

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:44:23

A man has a choice about creating a pregnancy right up until the moment he has sex.

From that point on, the woman has the choice whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

Therefore, men that don't want children need to make their choices carefully while they still HAVE a choice.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:47:38

And you don't find it morally repugnant to pursue a man financially for years and years for something he never wanted and never made any pretence of wanting...especially when you can afford to raise the child that ONLY YOU wanted alone. hmmm

pooka Sun 07-Apr-13 23:49:09

Not that I'm defending someone who sounds like a twat - but do any of yo actually know that he didn'T wear a condom?

I accept that i may have missed this info in op's posts.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:50:08

No I don't. I find it morally repugnant when a man has sex knowing it can result in a baby and then when it does he fucks off and doesn't support that child financially or as a father.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:50:49

No info has been given regarding any contraception.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:51:26

Once a baby has been conceived, the only way to prevent a pregnancy from continuing when the woman wishes it to, is to FORCE her to have a termination against her wishes.

Which takes away her autonomy over her own body. That is not acceptable.

As a man, you have a choice whether to have a vasectomy or not - you don't have an Ex able to FORCE you to have a vasectomy against your wishes, because you have autonomy over your own body.

As a woman, therefore, you have a choice whether to have a termination or not - you don't have an Ex able to force you to have a termination against your wishes, because you have autonomy over your own body.

Nobody can force an Ex partner to go through a medical procedure against their wishes.

Therefore, if a man does not want a baby, that decision needs to be made BEFORE a baby is conceived, not after.

And if he decides NOT to make a decision on that, the consequences might be the conception and birth if a baby that he is equally responsible for.

People need to think of the consequences of their actions in advance of taking them.

The OP did that - she thought through whether to keep the baby, and decided it was right for her.

It's her Ex that didn't think through to the consequences of not taking responsibility for his own fertility.

poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 23:51:44

5eggs we will have to agree to disagree.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:56:29

What couthy said.

There is nothing wrong with getting a man to financially support his OWN child.

DontSHOUTTTTTT Sun 07-Apr-13 23:57:10

I would suggest blocking his number or changing yours.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sun 07-Apr-13 23:57:58

He did make a pretence of not actively preventing a baby though - and if he didn't WANT a baby, then he should have taken ACTIVE responsibility for this, and either had a vasectomy, or use a condom and accept that occasionally even condoms fail, and create a pregnancy.

No method of contraception is fail safe, all carries a slight risk of pregnancy even when used correctly. Therefore every time you have sex, you are taking a calculated risk on creating a baby.

I am ADAMANT that I don't want any more DC's. Therefore, to ensure this, I am not having sex. I have been celibate for two years now.

THAT is the only failsafe contraception.

If you choose a more risky contraception, there is at least a 1% chance of failure every time you use it.

Take that risk, don't take that risk, but either way, accept that it IS a risk, and you are choosing to accept that a baby MAY result every time you have sex, and if it does, as a father, you WILL be equally financially responsible.

And if you are a decent human being, you will be equally MORALLY and EMOTIONALLY responsible too.

If you aren't prepared to accept that risk - have a vasectomy or become celibate.

poppylemons Mon 08-Apr-13 00:00:02

But what about the mother Couthy? She CHOSE to have a baby with someone who is not willing to be a father and whom she does not want as a father for her baby. But she wants his money. I find this unsettling.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:00:34

I'm no longer (as a woman) prepared to accept that risk, as a termination would not be acceptable to me, under ANY circumstances other than rape, therefore I'm celibate.

If I can do it, as a woman with a very high sex drive in their early 30's, then anybody can.

Just depends HOW much they really don't want any more DC's...

And how decent a human being they are...

poppylemons Mon 08-Apr-13 00:01:06

"Any single men reading this, had better beware. Read the comments. Then, before the next unprotected roll in the hay, just stop and think…. You won’t be consulted on whether you want to be a parent… one of the most important decisions of your life.

But then, with no condom, … you give up any control. You will become a parent without your consent, simply because the woman wants to. Better beware."

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:03:30

If he chooses not to use a condom he is giving his consent that a baby may be produced!

Even with a condom there is a risk. Contraception is not 100% therfore we all make a choice to have sex knowing a baby may be the end result.

ATouchOfStuffing Mon 08-Apr-13 00:05:50

He is not interested in the child, he just wants to see if he can win you over again to try to get you to feel sorry for him and stop any CSA/maintenance talks. Do not get sucked in. You have moved on and are stronger without him messing about with you and your baby.
I have been there with a guy who can't decide if he wants in or out but most certainly didn't want to pay. The only route is CSA sadly, but you cannot control whether they will have contact. If he really cared about the child he would be asking about contact and bonding.

clam Mon 08-Apr-13 00:07:39

Newsflash: unprotected sex can lead to babies.
Who knew?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 08-Apr-13 00:07:53

Poppylemons were you absent when sex ed was on the menu at school? Your 'warning' to 'men' that sex could equal baby is hilarious.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 08-Apr-13 00:08:24

X post clam grin

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:09:30

She CHOSE to continue with a pregnancy that is already there.

By this point, a man no longer has a choice in whether a baby will be born or not, as his time for making that choice has passed.

If he DIDN'T want a baby THAT badly - he would have made damn fucking SURE he didn't have one. BEFORE one was conceived, because obviously he has no say in any decision made after that point.

I had this situation with my DD's father.

I was on the pill, yet still fell pg.

He didn't want me to keep the baby. I wanted desperately to keep it.

Strangely, though, once DD was conceived, it was MY decision, and mine only. Because my baby WASN'T growing inside HIS body.

Should I not pursue him for maintenance because he didn't take responsibility for his own fertility?


He contributed as much of her DNA as I did. She deserves financial support from the person who contributed 50% of her DNA.

DD is now 15yo. Should I have struggled for 15 years alone because my pill failed and I could not go through with a termination unless in VERY certain circumstances (the only two I could do would be rape or a condition incompatible with life, and even then I'd feel terrible mentally. I agree that each woman should have their own choice in what is right for them, but I know it's wrong for ME)?

He knew long before we ever slept together my views about terminations, that wasn't exactly going to change once I found myself pregnant with a REAL DC, were they?!

pollypandemonium Mon 08-Apr-13 00:13:01

You can't say 'he didn't want to have a baby' as though that makes him a bad person, when the two of you had sex, neither of you wanted to have a baby. In that respect you both were in agreement. You are going to have to get real and see this as not about you or yourself, but about a child who needs to be loved by both parents, not be set up by one parent against the other.

Blimey whether you like the man or not or whether he wants to pay or you want to pay, this is about a human being who will grow into an adult and want to know who his father will have a right to know.

Nobody knows what the future holds. If someone dies, who takes care of the child? Of course, it will be the father, he will have 'first dibs' (if that is in the interest of the child - which he will easily be able to argue) like it or not. You should have thought of that the moment you found out you were pregnant. You knew what this man was like and you decided to take a chance on this child's life. You made your bed and you are now tied to a loser druggie for the rest of your life. Hopefully he will change and grow up, you never what he might become, you never know what might happen to you.

I have spent the last months trying to find the child of my brother who died. When I made contact his mother told me that both of them had agreed not to keep contact but the boy was now growing up and was confused and wanting contact. Probate couldn't be resolved without finding him.

I think the best you can do is be 'business like' and see what he wants. But you must understand that if you push this man away you will have to explain it to your child later on and consider how that will make them feel.

I wish you all the best of luck.

<<shakes head and shuffles off muttering>>

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:13:02

He doesn't need to be consulted if he is sure he doesn't want a baby, he should take responsibility for his own fertility. How is that so difficult to comprehend?

Are you finding that a difficult concept? As said before, my 11yo DS1 understands it...

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:17:20

Actually, DD's father 'came round' to the idea of having DD when she was 12 (!) and now is in regular contact. Admittedly being 650 miles away has helped because DD just sees it as it was too difficult for him to see her before then, and neither of us are going to disabuse her of that notion, as it wouldn't be in her best interests.

He also has paid regular maintenance for the last 3 years, without missing a month.

Though granted, I released him of any responsibility towards the previous 12 years - mostly because he'd been unemployed AND without JSA for most of that, as the unwashed dependent of his current wife...

Now he's finally grown up, and is actually a really good father to DD finally.

It took over a decade for him to grow up though!!

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:18:43

Hahahahahahaha at 'unwashed' dependent. Hilarious though probably true Autocorrect!

Was meant to say 'unWAGED dependent'.


pollypandemonium Mon 08-Apr-13 00:22:16

She didn't want the baby when she had sex with him. She decided she wanted it later, knowing what he was like, knowing that this baby is going to grow into an adult that will want to make contact, knowing that he didn't want her to continue with the pregnancy. That's her choice but she has to live with the consequences, and not just the consequences of bringing up a child with a father she doesn't get along with and who may one day reject her if she's not careful about doing the right thing.

Jeez I'm starting to sound like Jeremy Kyle now!

Sunnywithshowers Mon 08-Apr-13 00:23:24

Arf at 'unwashed'.

And people finding it hard to understand that sex leads to babies.

pollypandemonium Mon 08-Apr-13 00:24:58

I meant the child could reject her if she doesn't do the right thing, not the 'Dad', he's already done that.

poppylemons Mon 08-Apr-13 00:26:49

Couthy you have just revealed this 'debate' is a very personal matter to you. I don't really wish to try and erode a viewpoint you and your DD have and which is important to you.

All I will say is OP has not said she is 'struggling' financially, quite the opposite.

poppylemons Mon 08-Apr-13 00:27:41

x post couthy

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Mon 08-Apr-13 00:31:06

It doesnt matter if she is struggling or not, he is still responsible for his child.

And that child may at some point need that support and even if they dont they are entitled to it.

ATouchOfStuffing Mon 08-Apr-13 00:34:47

I went via CSA as my ex couldn't make his mind up and saw DD for 6 months and then got a new g.f and buggered off. Took me to Court with CSA Tribunal and he lost and wa ordered to pay infront of his new g.f. He then quit his job to avoid CSA. Luckily for him his g.f is financially secure enough to pay his rent etc while he claims jobseekers when he previously earned £45k. Poor moo has clearly been sold a sob story.
I don't regret going via CSA. For starters he has responsibility here, regardless of whether he thinks you should have had an abortion. To me that smacks of reckless behaviour on his behalf at the very least. As far as I am concerned DD's dad could always change his mind and show up. If this relationship flops, he might suddenly decide he wants to see her. It could be next week or it might be in 5/10/15 years. He could turn up and cause all sorts of emotional problems on a whim. I strangely feel back up that if he is 'having to pay' he is avoiding us - proof in that he hasn't managed a penny due to benefits and CSA hiding.
However, DD will at some point want to know about him and I sure as heck am not going to lie to her. So she will possibly want to find him if they haven't met already.
Would you rather your daughter met a man (even if you despise him) and heard he not only never saw her/cared/thought about her, but ran away from financial responsibility too? That would make me wonder about my genetic morals (if there are such things) and make me feel pretty crap as a kid meeting a parent for the first time. She doesn't need to know much but at least he can have one card in a deck of jokers - he tried to contribute if I ever actually get my £20 a month and she doesn't need to know I had to go to Court to make him give the slightest shit.

I may be a bit paranoid here, but I'll add my voice to those suggesting to be a bit wary re chasing CSA. Lots of men seem to find paying this so troubling that they put a lot of effort into making you suffer for every £. Unless there are extremely clear signs of abuse (and negative attitudes and casual drug use are not likely to be sufficient) then he can request, and the courts would likely allow, regular and overnight contact. How would you feel about that? In terms of him deliberately messing you around, and filling your childs head with nonsense? Unless you are sure he won't be bothered to do this, or he's too lazy and disorganised.

Snazzynewyear Mon 08-Apr-13 00:58:24

I think we could short-cut a lot of this discussion if the OP was willing to tell us whether contraception was used, and if it was him or her who used it. Then we know how much of a risk this bloke thought himself to be taking.

OP, I do believe men should pay to support kids they father, but having said that you can afford to support the baby yourself and you would prefer him not to have any involvement, why not take the route he's offering hmm and leave him out of it entirely? Let him think he's fooled you that he's moved to Libya and let it go?

WHy are some of you so upset at the idea that men need to take some responsibility for what they do with their dicks?

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 02:04:00

Even if the OP's Ex was wearing a condom, he was still taking a 1% risk that that condom would fail and a baby would be created.

The only 100%, permanently definite way NOT to have any DC's is to stay celibate.

Even a female sterilisation OP or a vasectomy do not have a 100% permanent success rate.

Therefore, EVERY time you have sex, you are accepting at least a 1% risk that you are creating a baby. And that you will be equally financially responsible for any baby created through that sex.

If you don't want a baby, stay works!

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Mon 08-Apr-13 02:05:32

SGB - my guess is that those posters so vehemently against men taking responsibility for their own fertility and the risk they take each and every time they have sex of creating a baby and then being financially responsible for that baby ARE MEN.

kickassangel Mon 08-Apr-13 02:09:21

It's not like having sex is an unexpected accident. Nobody tripped and fell, and oh gosh! A penis ended up inside a vagina!

This was an act of will. Sex has potential consequences, babies being one of them. Any action which you intend to take, you should weigh up the possible outcomes and their likelihood. If you aren't willing to face the consequences, don't do the action. Outside of rape, any person having sex has to address the issue that they could become a parent, even if they use contraceptive. Saying "I don't want to be a parent but I'm going to have sex anyway" then trying to get out of it is ridiculous. It's not even the moral arguments, it's a basic law of nature.

If someone said "I don't want to get hurt" then jumped off a cliff, cos they thought that the magic pixies would stop them from falling, we would think them certifiable.

OP if you haven't been scared off. Have you been check for sti? He was having sex with more than one woman, and may. Not have been using condoms very carefully. Sorry to add to your problems, but your health is important.

And congratulations. You sound happy to be pregnant, in spite of the idiot who helped you get that way.

pollypandemonium Mon 08-Apr-13 08:13:23

I really hope that he clans up, grows up, requests shared care and this child is brought up by tworesponsible parents.

acceptableinthe80s Mon 08-Apr-13 09:11:53

OP may i suggest you post in Lone Parents in future where you'll get actual support from people in similar situations.

ArcaneAsylum Mon 08-Apr-13 09:57:00

There's seems to be a lot of mixed opinion on this, and those of you who believe that I am entirely responsible for my pregnancy are welcome to your opinions. They just don't match up with mine.

We didn't use contraception this one time. The fact was that I had already told him that I no longer wanted to be with him and that I did not want to sleep with him again. He asked to meet as friends and I agreed. We have other things in common and he told me that he only wanted friendship and to see that I was ok after going through a tough time.

On the night in question, he kept trying to kiss me and touch me and I kept saying no. As the evening went on I had quite a few drinks and after he kept hassling for sex, I gave in. I didn't have any contraception, which I had previously always provided, for the simple reason that I did not plan to have sex.

Yes, it was very stupid of me because I not only risked pregnancy, I risked my health. In the morning I saw sense and decided to have a checkup at the local G.U.M clinic after a reasonable amount of time had passed (which I did). In the meantime I ended things properly with him and told him I would not see him again, friend or otherwise, as I didn't want a repeat of the last night out.

Due to certain things (which would take ages to explain), I believed that I was infertile. I did not share this view with the father until after I found out I was pregnant (by then, it was obvious that that wasn't the case). I did not trick him into getting me pregnant, the risk was there for both of us when we decided not to use contraception. I accept my responsibility for getting pregnant, but as others rightly say, I was only one half of the equation.

When I told him about the pregnancy and he was instantly horrified, I asked why he had not insisted on contraception as 1. He had planned to have sex that night, whereas I had not 2. He was so against me getting pregnant. His line was: 'your body = your responsibility'.

The fact is, we both knew the risks involved. We did it anyway. I got pregnant. It is my body and therefore it is my choice. If it was his body, it would be his choice. I have always held the view that if you are mature enough to have sex, you are mature enough to accept responsibility for a child. That is what sex leads to. Yes, it's fun and pleasurable, but fun and pleasure can be had in other ways.

I also have the very strong view that I personally would never have an abortion, barring the exception of rape or a life threatening scenario for me or the baby. I have had this view since I began having sex at 17 and make no secret of it- every long term partner I've had knew this and the father would have known if he had asked. I also don't like the idea of using the pill. I think that unless I'm ill, my body should be left to function normally. Again, I make no secret of this.

What some people seem to suggest is that I should have had an abortion the minute I found out he wasn't interested. For other reasons which I can't really go into because of a legal case I have filed, I was very heavily depressed. I had already attempted suicide twice. To have an abortion would have cost me any sanity I had left and there is no doubt in my mind that had I had an abortion, I would have killed myself from the guilt. My baby was the only reason that I felt I had to live and since I have found out that I was pregnant, I have turned my life around. I got myself back to a state where I was able to function normally, returned to work, have begun to work through my problems and prepared myself for the child I am bringing into this world. I'm not the same person I was five months ago.

And yes, perhaps it is selfish for me to claim maintenance from him, but I am being selfish on the behalf of my child. I cannot predict the future. I have a good career that seems to be quite stable, but as always I don't know for certain that it will always be so. Likewise, I cannot guarantee my health or my life. My own mother died when I was nine. If something were to happen to me, I would like to have enough money to leave to my child to support them into adulthood. I will obviously get life insurance as well as putting savings aside.

The father of the baby has a legal obligation to support HIS child if he is able to do so. So no, I don't think it is necessary to have 'pride' and pretend that he doesn't exist. My baby needs every resource I can give to help him/her survive in this life. The fact is, if he didn't want a child, he should not have had sex. That was his choice as much as it was mine. I certainly didn't 'steal' his sperm.

Anyway, the whole point is moot anyway. Obviously, as he is moving to Libya, I won't be able to get any money at all will I? smile

buildingmycorestrength Mon 08-Apr-13 10:03:28

Arcane thou are clearly a very sensible woman. You don't have to justify your choices to anyone. Do what seems best. He obviously isn't really moving to Libya, of course...but you knew that! smile. he is lucky you aren't pressing charges for rape, actually, since he 'hassled you until you reluctantly gave in'.

ArcaneAsylum Mon 08-Apr-13 10:10:19

Thanks building. Of course I don't have to justify my choices to anyone. I'm just encouraging those who jump to their own conclusions to think that there are other reasons for why mothers decide to have children if the father is against it. The chances are that they will go on believing their views anyway, but I will have done my bit in trying to educate them to the flip side of the argument.

buildingmycorestrength Mon 08-Apr-13 10:13:30

I quite like the fact I said 'thou' BTW. How cool am I. <preens>

You are going to be a great mum.

Midwife99 Mon 08-Apr-13 10:16:58

Arcane the bottom line is you BOTH had unprotected sex knowing the risks & so are BOTH responsible for the resultant baby. Obviously if he doesn't want to see the child that's up to him but he should still pay child support so put in your CSA claim when the baby has been born. If he has moved to Libya (wink) or keeps changing address & you can't trace him I guess it'll be a non starter but worth a try eh?
Good luck!!

I agree that he obviously should support his child.

BUT he sounds like a thoroughly nasty piece of work, he really does. In your position I would be tempted to end all contact and not follow up with the CSA, because then you and your baby will have a decent and peaceful life. Of course he should pay and support his child. And that is why he is furious. Because he knows he should and is trying to get out of it.

But I would rather not have someone like that in my life at all

GroupieGirl Mon 08-Apr-13 10:46:22

Arcane how would one apply for the position of your best friend?!

ArcaneAsylum Mon 08-Apr-13 10:51:14

Much respect for using 'thou'! Big Shakespeare fan here.

ArcaneAsylum Mon 08-Apr-13 10:52:50

Groupie the application process is much harder than the one to be the father of my child wink

TheGoatThatGotAway Mon 08-Apr-13 11:09:37

Could I have a form too please? Clearly you rock flowers

DontmindifIdo Mon 08-Apr-13 11:15:29

CSA will take what, 20% of his after tax income? What percentage of your income do you think will go on keeping your child? Start with factoring in the fact you are having to move to a larger flat now to make space for the baby, that nursery costs are around a grand a month for a full time place, and suddenly you see he's not even being asked to pay half of the costs for his child.

Good luck OP - he chose to have sex without using contraception, that's a choice to create a life, that's when his choices ended. I don't understand why more men can't get this concept.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 08-Apr-13 11:19:55

Thank you OP for saying what you did. You owe no one an explanation but your post is awesome and I am glad you came back to address the fuckwittery sympathisers. I concur that you do indeed rock!

Sunnywithshowers Mon 08-Apr-13 12:40:15

Good luck OP smile and enjoy your baby.

chipmonkey Mon 08-Apr-13 13:17:09

Arcane, first of all, can I just say that you didn't have to justify yourself to anyone. It's irrelevant whether you used contraception or not, IMO, there were two people there and BOTH share EQUAL responsibilty for the child.
If a man doesn't use contraception, then of course he should know that sex means babies and it is up to him to take the risk.

If he does use contraception any adult man should know that contraception can fail.

poppy BOTH parents have to face the financial burden of raising a child. Why should the woman have to bear all the financial responsibilty? And I find your view that men can't "get rid of an erection" except by having sex rather worrying and the type of argument people used to use to justify rape.

Sanctimumious Mon 08-Apr-13 13:23:39

Yeah Chip, tiz always the woman held responsible though. The single woman /mother not only takes the responsibility in practical terms, interruption to career, but she is expected to take 100% of the blame for conception although it certainly takes two and both parties know the facts of life.... after the man skips off, contactable only by text, she is expected to absorb all of the perceived shame of an unplanned pregnancy too.

So, I agree with chipmonkey, Arcane don't justify yourself to anybody. Enjoy your pregnancy.

arsenaltilidie Mon 08-Apr-13 16:48:17

The r

fuzzywuzzy Mon 08-Apr-13 17:05:52

Personally I think a child has a right to be financially supported by both parents, on that basis I would (& do) claim CSA.

It's a fact of life, children are a possibility when you have sex, if you don't want that keep it in your pants.

Nobody gets to force someone to do something with their body they do not want to.

So what if the OP is financially comfortable, that doesn't absolve the father from financial responsibility.

arsenaltilidie Mon 08-Apr-13 17:08:05

If a man decides to have unprotected sex he runs the risk of becoming a father.
Equally a woman who decides to keep the baby against his wishes runs the risk of the father not contributing financially.

This is different to a planned baby in which the father changes his mind. BOTH of you guys agreed to have unprotected sex but you decided to keep the baby at the risk he will not contribute financially.

Let this be the lesson to people to be carefully who they sleep with. Because at the end of the day women carry the most 'burden' of raising a child if the man decides to abscond.

OP it sounds like there is a risk the baby might be your only chance of having a child.
At the moment dont stress yourself about the guy and enjoy your pregnancy.

GroupieGirl Mon 08-Apr-13 18:59:18

grin Yes, I too have had to reassess my screening process!

ATouchOfStuffing Mon 08-Apr-13 19:20:52

You sound great Arcane. You can do this on your own.
I would just say that even if you don't go for CSA this man may well try to stay in your life anyway - it doesn't make any difference to contact as has been said already.
Good luck, being a mum is amazing smile

pollypandemonium Mon 08-Apr-13 21:14:11

Yes, it was very stupid of me because I not only risked pregnancy, I risked my health. In the morning I saw sense and decided to have a checkup at the local G.U.M clinic after a reasonable amount of time had passed (which I did). In the meantime I ended things properly with him and told him I would not see him again, friend or otherwise, as I didn't want a repeat of the last night out.

Sounds like a bad night and you were unlucky to say the least but you clearly knew you had made a big mistake the night before and you could have taken a morning after pill or at least prepared yourself for a D&C.

I think you need to accept you made the decision to have the baby of this man and that he will be part of your life forever now.

Due to your mental health issues in the past, NOW is the time to get emotional support before your hormones start to play tricks on you.

ATouchOfStuffing Mon 08-Apr-13 21:17:20

Oh wow. It's like a stuck record sad

wonderingagain Mon 08-Apr-13 21:51:47

OP I don't think you need to justify yourself as you did above. But I would like you to think about this not as having a baby, but as having a child that will grow into an adult and have children of their own. The child's father will be involved with your child, as will his parents and family.

Your child will be entitled to be supported (and you should be too) but you need to understand that it will come with attachments. You will have to work very hard to ensure that your child's life is stable and that you have a backup in case something happens to you, healthwise, or financially.

ATouchOfStuffing Mon 08-Apr-13 21:54:08

I don't think anyone can generalise what this man or his family will or won't do. Seeing everything as a possibility is wise though.
I personally have no contact whatsover with DD's father or any of his family - that is the way he and I want it.

perfectstorm Tue 09-Apr-13 01:58:00

Child support is not for the benefit of the parent with care. As we all know, in most cases it does not even touch the sides. It is to try to help support the child. THE MONEY DOES NOT BELONG TO THE WOMAN. IT BELONGS TO THE CHILD. Why the everliving fuck would any sane and morally decent human being argue against a child, who in all likelihood won't have a loving and engaged father, being at least partially insulated against the financial implications of coming from a single parent household, if only from a financial perspective? The OP said she can manage. She didn't say she was loaded, or that uni fees (for example) were a cinch. Why, pray, should this man be allowed to curtail his own child's life chances, whatever the situation between the parents?

A child is not an adjunct to a parent. They're a person in their own right, with needs and best interests. People who cannot separate the needs of the child from the wishes and interests of the parents scare me. (This is most particularly the case when they are parents themselves.) Some money towards essentials (or saved against future university costs, for example) does not begin to compensate for having a loving and engaged father - which let's face it, this one is most unlikely to become. So you are already in the realms of limiting harm and loss. Yet some women on this thread are actually arguing that the needs and wants of the man should take pre-eminence over those of the child?

Okay then. You keep right on with judging the OP. Believe me, I'm judging you every scrap as vehemently.

perfectstorm Tue 09-Apr-13 02:00:57

I find your view that men can't "get rid of an erection" except by having sex rather worrying and the type of argument people used to use to justify rape.

I think Poppy needs to google "masturbation". It might open a whole new world. Along with the strange, novel concept that men are human beings, and not another species. Crazy thinking, I know, but some of them even have consciences and self-control and everything!

Midwife99 Tue 09-Apr-13 02:10:41

Poppy you are rather unpleasant!
Unexpectedly pregnant single woman coping brilliantly from what I can see & you use her mental health "problems" to beat her with? How kind!

poppylemons Tue 09-Apr-13 06:03:50

midwife when did i use her mental health problems to beat her with? I didn't even know she had any last time I posted!

"I find your view that men can't "get rid of an erection" except by having sex rather worrying and the type of argument people used to use to justify rape."
-----you have completely twisted my point, even quoting something I never said! I was trying to point out that men, at the point of having sex with a WILLING PERSON (FGS!) are unlikely to use higher brain at that point and take time to really consider all the risks. Biology is a very strong drive. ---- then you somehow twist what I am saying into defending rape? my god!

OP, it sounds like you were not that willing...and the fact that he knew you were not on the pill and against termination...I'm going to admit I was wrong in this case.

poppylemons Tue 09-Apr-13 06:17:29

Also, please note that when I made that point I was referring to a situation where a man believes the woman is on the pill or at least believes she would take morning after pill, not want to continue with a pregnancy if it DID happen as they are not in a relationship etc. In that situation I was trying to say it was unlikely for him to halt sex with a (willing) girl 'just incase' his presumptions were incorrect and. Again, biology/willing sex partner = v powerful.
Am alarmed at some peoples willingness to completely warp what I say and make a serious attack in suggestion I may use this argument to 'defend rape'. Very shady and bad form.

However in this case, OP has since said he always knew she was against termination (and perhaps morning after pill?) and always knew that she was not using any form of contraception, HE chose not to use contraception either on this occasion. So completely reasonable to expect a pregnancy that would NOT BE HALTED by contraception, a termination or morning after pill in this case.

poppylemons Tue 09-Apr-13 06:32:10


^If a man decides to have unprotected sex he runs the risk of becoming a father.
Equally a woman who decides to keep the baby against his wishes runs the risk of the father not contributing financially.^

This is different to a planned baby in which the father changes his mind. BOTH of you guys agreed to have unprotected sex but you decided to keep the baby at the risk he will not contribute financially.

Let this be the lesson to people to be carefully who they sleep with. Because at the end of the day women carry the most 'burden' of raising a child if the man decides to abscond.

Very good points. I am not a man, but the reason I presumed to come down on the side of the man in this situation is because it seems always the case on here that women see men who have sex, don't wish for the resulting pregnancy to continue, then still don't want any input into the child's life when it arrives, are flamed and demonised and the woman in the situation is always the victim.

The fact is - most often it IS the women who are left 'holding the baby', men CAN walk away from being a father much more easily, and a lot do if they were never 'for' the pregnancy. This is something which most women know and should equally take into consideration when they have sex.

I just get a bit fed up of it always being the man who immediately gets demonised in these situations even when posters don't know full facts, so I want to point out the 'other side' of the argument.

(This is a general point, not aimed at OP's situation which she clarified in her last post)

but arsenaltilidie makes good points, equally for both mothers and fathers.

wonderingagain Tue 09-Apr-13 07:25:39

I personally have no contact whatsover with DD's father or any of his family - that is the way he and I want it.

But is that the way your DD wants it?

perfectstorm Tue 09-Apr-13 08:48:44

Poppy, if your social skills are so lacking that you think a Relationships post on a sensitive and complex issue affecting a real live human being looking for support is the right place to hector, lecture and pontificate in a general and unpleasant manner, then please, carry on. Not like it matters if you upset or hurt anyone with your apparent posting cluelessness, is it? hmm

And again, because you conveniently sidestepped the issue: this is not about the man, or the woman. It's about the rights of the child. If you think the man's rights are more important then IMO you can have nothing of interest to share, really.

CuChullain Tue 09-Apr-13 08:51:50

What a mess.

Quite why both parties who were at the tail end of a ‘very casual relationship’ did not use any form of contraception is beyond me. The bloke should have used condoms and not assumed the OP was on the pill, the OP should have made him wear them if she knew she was not on the pill, failing that, as an extreme last resort she should not have let him cum inside her. Both people here have shown appalling lack of judgment, I have little sympathy for either party.

Poppy, I am a bloke and I find the notion that whilst in a state of sexual arousal with a willing partner I am unable to control myself, or as you put it “unlikely to use higher brain” offensive as it is ridicules. I have had condoms split on me before while close to the point of orgasm and believe me the notion of dealing with an unplanned pregnancy was plenty enough incentive to stop what I was doing, replace the split condom before continuing. Its really not that difficult.

perfectstorm Tue 09-Apr-13 08:52:37

Am alarmed at some peoples willingness to completely warp what I say and make a serious attack in suggestion I may use this argument to 'defend rape'. Very shady and bad form.

Can I suggest that you take some responsibility for your own careless posting? If you don't choose your words carefully enough and come alarmingly close to claiming men are a prey to urges and can't be blamed for their actions when in thrall to those urges, you cannot seriously be clutching your virtual pearls when that stance is questioned? Attacking the person who expresses strong concern at any such standpoint is perhaps - what was the phrase? - oh yes: shady and bad form

Your posting appals me, to be honest. Unkind, judgemental and wholly lacking in concern for the child.

TonysHardWorkDay Tue 09-Apr-13 09:10:37

poppyslemons Also, please note that when I made that point I was referring to a situation where a man believes the woman is on the pill or at least believes she would take morning after pill, not want to continue with a pregnancy if it DID happen as they are not in a relationship etc. In that situation I was trying to say it was unlikely for him to halt sex with a (willing) girl 'just incase' his presumptions were incorrect and. Again, biology/willing sex partner = v powerful.

Right, I just want to clear up this point, so the man can act how he wants due to the biological drive to want sex, he can make all the assumptions he wants and take no responsibility at all for his own fertility? That is fine it is the fault of biology lets feel sorry for him and that nasty nasty sperm thief woman. No mention of the woman's biological drive, I know a couple of women who had unplanned pregnancies and found the idea of abortion became abhorrent when the protective instinct kicked in fast. None of us know how we are going to react until we are in that situation. But they're just women so who cares? Men's biological urges are clearly far more important to ours. I seriously hope you aren't raising children with that kind of abhorrent attitude.

In the few cases I have known where there are unplanned pregnancies and the guy is trying to bully the woman into terminating you always here the same thing I thought she was on the pill its never but we used a condom.

Good luck ArcaneAsylum and I wish you well with your pregnancy.

BerylStreep Tue 09-Apr-13 09:53:17

OP, a good friend of mine had a baby last year in similar circumstances - going out with a guy for a couple of months, got pregnant, he told her to have an abortion, denied it was his, then harassed her for months - at 8 1/2 months pregnant she was spending the day in court getting a court order against him.

He is now taking her to court to get parental responsibility. It is a thinly veiled attempt to further harass her and cause her pain. She rues the day she ever told him she was pregnant. If he gets parental responsibility, my friend will be forced to keep him updated about medical issues, the child's education (and he could object to choice of schools), he will have a say in his religious upbringing, and could try to have the baby for overnight visits. He is from another country, so we are really concerned he will try to abduct the baby, just to punish my friend.

My advice would be to move, don't let him know where you are (even to the point of not going on the electoral register etc), and get on with your life with your baby.

Yes, he should be contributing towards the baby, but if he is made to pay, there is every likelihood he will do his damnest to make you pay for that decision. Sorry to sound alarmist, but I wish to goodness my friend wasn't going through this.

Good luck.

hairtearing Tue 09-Apr-13 09:55:11

I totally agree that there is shared responsibility here, even with contraception their is a risk of pregnancy and most people know this, so the whole 'you trapped me bla bla bla is crap.

However, before when you listed all of his bad traits I couldn't help thinking why did you risk having a baby with such an awful person then? Not being funny just linking to the above argument.

you sound like you will be a good mum though.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Tue 09-Apr-13 10:54:44

Good posts tony men are just as responsible for their fertility and cash choose to use a condom, if they don't they have to accept they are risking s pregnancy and even if they do use one it can fail.

Funny dp and I have been together 15yrs and mainly use condoms as I don't like the pill, he has managed in all this time to control himself! Its really not that hard!

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Tue 09-Apr-13 10:56:36

Re risking preg the op mentioned infertility so has been told she couldn't get preg or it was highly unlikely so I can see why you may take a risk tho it still isn't a smart thing to do. She is however taking on the responsibility of her actions which is more than can be said for the man in this situation!

Droflove Tue 09-Apr-13 11:08:05

Oh dear. He's acting like an ass but I feel terribly sorry for him. I can only imagine how I would feel in his situation and it wouldn't be good. I think you need to be patient with him. It is his child and the situation is being forced on him. It sounds from his bad behaviour that he does care (rather than just ignoring it all) and I suspect that he will be in your lives either sporadically or otherwise, forever more so I would be careful not to make relations any worse than necessary. Just try to see his perspective and ignore his emotional anger where possible now and hopefully he accepts the situation and behaves better soon.

Sanctimumious Tue 09-Apr-13 11:21:32

Flipsake, i'm totally pro-choice, but I think it's vile to expect a woman to have an abortion because the father doesn't want the child. If the father has unprotected sex he can't have a licence to excuse himself from fatherhood on the grounds that 'she should have had an abortion'. shock

On the one hand I'm rolling my eyes at poppy's concern for men that they could get 'caught out' from having unprotected sex, but she is right in one respect, the script does seem to be that fertility is a woman's issue. it's hers to control. HIS is not the issue confused and if she conceives it's her fault, and a baby is then her burden because she chose not to have an abortion!!!!!

like i say, i'm pro-choice, but the availability of abortion should not be a get out clause for men. They shouldn't have to wear a condom because abortion exists?!!? please.

Sanctimumious Tue 09-Apr-13 11:23:04

and another one from droflove Evidently men do need to be reminded that sex without contraception can lead to a pregnancy.

Sanctimumious Tue 09-Apr-13 11:24:53

/reading back this thread, it's clear that the script in society is that women are about 80% responsible for conceiving and men are only about 20% responsible. The single mother in these circumstances will almost certainly give more time, effort, love, money into parenthood but yet people feel sorry for the father who put his sperm into a woman and then called her a sperm thief.

TheGoatThatGotAway Tue 09-Apr-13 11:25:13

Some of these responses... I don't know, I don't really have the words. Droflove, have you even read the thread? He chose to have unprotected sex (actually he harrassed the OP for it) and now he is being asked to take his share of the financial responsibility for the child he made. How is this any reason to feel "terribly sorry" for him or to excuse his appalling behaviour?

ArcaneAsylum, I hope you can take what's helpful from the thread and ignore the rest.

Sanctimumious Tue 09-Apr-13 11:30:49

Arcane, yes, sorry your thread turned into a debate!!!

ATouchOfStuffing Tue 09-Apr-13 12:38:38

Sorry Arcane - feel I have to respond to Wondering: I think my DD would not want me to have contact with a man who spent over a year trying to convince me I have mental issues and was being a spoilt brat because he didn't want to pay for his child. I am a happier and better parent without him being in my life, which is better for DD. She has the choice to meet him when she is older and as I said I would never stop him seeing her if he actually wanted to. He doesn't.

wonderingagain Tue 09-Apr-13 13:04:33

However, before when you listed all of his bad traits I couldn't help thinking why did you risk having a baby with such an awful person then? Not being funny just linking to the above argument.

Not only did you risk it OP. You decided to go ahead with the risk by not taking the morning after pill - which you can get over the counter now. Remember this was your decision alone.

OP, heed what Beryl says about the consequences of having a lifetime involvement.

I think every child has a right to have access to their father, but not if there is risk inolved. In this case, if he's a drug user, there is risk and therefore OP you should be gathering evidence now so that if he does seek overnight contact you can be sure you can protect your baby through a legal route. It's time to grow up love.

Droflove Tue 09-Apr-13 13:34:11

Sanctimumious, I had only read the first page when I posted, not realising there was pages of people kicking off.

In any case I believe it is a tragedy for both parents and child in these situations. The man is stuck between a rock and a hard place, the woman is obliged to accept the fathers rights no matter what an ass he is, and the child is caught in the middle with a half assed father who may or may not let them down for their whole life. It would probably be better (unless the dad was totally involved, paid support and stayed friends with the mum) if the dad didn't care and kept totally away and mum provided for the child alone but there's humans involved so it is rarely that simple.

Good luck OP. I hope things work out but please remember it is his child exactly as much as it is yours and when you made the choice to keep the baby you made the choice to open the door to your life for this man.

wonderingagain Tue 09-Apr-13 13:52:32

stuffing thanks for clarifying - that's different if you are prepared to tell her what she wants to know.

Sanctimumious Tue 09-Apr-13 15:06:21

Taking the morning after pill is not something that is like popping a smartie. It's a strong drug and it is hard on the body. I don't like to see it all on women, take the pill, take the morning after pill, have an abortion shock pro-choice, but abortion shouldn't exist to giv emen a licence to be sloppy with contraception. i took the map once and i wouldn't want to do it again. It's a big deal. it's not a cod liver oil capsule.

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 16:01:07

Oh for goodness' sake, this has turned into a full on 'bitch-slapping' in the playground hasn't it? Trust me when I say that the father of the child needs no pity, he was utterly in the wrong for harassing me to have sex in the first place when my first (and many times after) response was NO. But I take full responsibility for giving in, it was my choice but believe me it is not a mistake I shall make again.

I have stated before that I do not like taking medication unless it is because I am ill. I would never take the morning after pill, nor would I take the pill as a form of contraception. The thought of using abortion as a method of contraception is abhorrent to me. I respect the rights of every woman to make these choices for herself. If you had bothered to read my earlier post, you would know this wondering. An additional side note, I also dislike people who use 'love' to address someone they don't know. But you nicely pulled off the patronising tone that you were obviously aiming for. Congratulations.

Now would I be reasonable in asking those that wish to discuss the ins and outs of my fertility/choice of contraception/choice in men/life choices to do so elsewhere so that I can actually read the useful advice some people are trying to offer? I do hate having to read through your drivel to get to the valid points. Might I suggest that you set up a thread of your own where you can all discuss how I am all to blame to your heart's content?

Perhaps I could get you started with other aspects of my life that you might see fit to discuss:

1. I had frosted shreddies for breakfast (think of all the refined sugar!)
2. I once drank so much wine on a NYE that I spent the first moments of the new year bringing it all back up again into a bucket.
3. I can pop my shoulder blades out, which no human being I have met so far can do (it's actually my party trick). Perhaps I'm a witch?

Off you trot.

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 16:29:21

Oh, and thank you to those who have actually provided me with sensible comments or advice. I have taken them on board and I'm proceeding carefully with respects to the father. I wasn't asking anyone for sympathy for myself, the baby or the 'tragedy' hmm of our circumstances: I wanted sensible adult advice about how to handle what is a bit of a complex situation.

MushroomSoup Tue 09-Apr-13 16:37:04

I soooo want to meet you!! You rock grin

Cuddlydragon Tue 09-Apr-13 16:45:41

De lurking to cheer you on Arcane. Your last post was a work of art. It never ceases to amaze me how other women can be. Good Luck with your new arrival. Motherhood will bring you much laughter, joy, sadness and tears, but you wont want it any other way!

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 16:52:24

blush It's so much nicer when people can wish each other well. And it is genuinely appreciated!

Midwife99 Tue 09-Apr-13 16:55:43

Good luck hun, I know you don't take this lightly & will love being a Mum smile

ATouchOfStuffing Tue 09-Apr-13 17:17:40

Ignore the patronising - got a lot of that and 'think of he poor baby!' when I first posted for advice here too. My dad recently pointed out that by the time DD is starting school roughly half of her peers parents will be separated anyway, so she will not feel like a 'poor baby' and will probably not have witnessed some potentially damaging squalls between her family.

IME men usually hit and run in these situ's - my ex was also moving to Spain apparently btw, then turned it around saying I was FORCING him to leave the UK hmm . So just prepare for a bumpy ride over the next year and everything should become clearer on where you stand and where he wants to be.

Hand to hold here and feel free to pm smile

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 17:46:28

Thanks Stuffing smile, there does seem to be a lot of concern about the 'poor baby' doesn't there? There are far worse situations for a child to be in. I think that any child is lucky to have at least one loving parent.

WobblyHalo Tue 09-Apr-13 17:57:04

Arcane, you are fabulous! I think I love you blush

Oh please, do me a favour hmm

Plenty of kids are born into a situation where both parents are involved but it doesn't mean they'll be loved or cared for.

This baby has a strong mum who'll obviously love it to bits and that's all it needs.

I didn't realize some people still thought we got ourselves pregnant! grin

OP, are you the next vrigin mary? shock

*virgin hmm haha

TheGoatThatGotAway Tue 09-Apr-13 18:22:48

Great post, Arcane. I'm sorry I don't have any experience or advice to offer, but I do want to say that I'm massively impressed by you and quite excited for you and the baby at the thought of the adventures you're going to have together. Here, have more flowers flowers

(I did exactly what you have done by the way and things are looking a lot better 3 years on! You have so much to be excited for & this numpty will be missing out more than he'll ever know if he carries on the way he does so just leave him to it. Good luck for everything)!

perfectstorm Tue 09-Apr-13 18:34:30

Good for you, Arcane.

wonderingagain Tue 09-Apr-13 19:53:20

Arcane can you please tell me why you didn't take the morning after pill?

Was it really because you didn't take pills out of principle?

If not, how can you say you made a mistake that you immediately regretted and still continue with the pregnancy?

Your post at 16:01 makes me think you still have a lot of growing up to do. I don't think I can reasonably discuss things with anyone that thinks that posters discussions are 'drivel'. I wish you well but don't trash our advice out of stubbornness.

You're not giving advice though are you wondering hmm

You've not added anything constructive yet. Just gone on about something that can't be changed now & ill only serve to make the OP feel shitter than she already does.

It's none of your bees wax why she didn't take the MAP really is it?
She's pregnant now & is looking for practical advice.


ThePskettiIncident Tue 09-Apr-13 20:08:14


I found this thread after posting on your other one.

I just wanted to add here that my circumstances were similar to yours two years ago and I also had to deal with unpleasant comments from people who were far more interested in gossiping about my pregnancy than offering advice.

I loved your last post. Good on you.

Ignore people who just want to Hoik their judgey pants so high they'll give themselves piles. Take care of yourself.

Two years on, no one asks me and no one cares.

What's important is the gorgeous baby you'll have and love.

I have a friend who is 20 years on from the moment you are in now. Her son is amazing, well rounded and fantastic and though his "father" has dipped in and out of his life, he has a brilliant relationship with his mum.

Pm me if you want to chat.

MysteriousHamster Tue 09-Apr-13 20:10:46

Wondering, the OP has very clearly explained why she would not take contraceptive pills, the morning after pill or abort.

You are being utterly ridiculous.

The man had sex with her - almost against her will - and then calls her a sperm thief?

Do you seriously think women should have to take heavy drugs after a mistake where neither party use contraception, against her own code, otherwise it is completely her fault she is pregnant? I've never read so much nonsense.

Continuing a pregnancy that happens after two people make a mistake is not the same as trying to fall pregnant in the first place.

She's looking after his sperm, not fricken stealing it.

MandragoraWurzelstock Tue 09-Apr-13 20:14:30

I had a baby that was conceived with someone I later left/asked to leave because he became abusive.

I told him that I did not want anything from him, just to be left alone.

I think if someone is financially motivated then appealing to that side of their character can be effective at keeping them away.

I don't advocate trying to keep someone away too keenly unless they are really unpleasant though. If they are a proper git then really, it's gloves off and do be aware that asking him for dosh will likely keep him involved on some level.

If you can manage without then I'd recommend that - if having a fuckwitted narcissistic bastard in your child's life is the price for having the financial security the child deserves, then I'd go without

wonderingagain Tue 09-Apr-13 20:15:43

The morning after pill isn't such a big deal and would have enabled her to choose a decent man with whom she could bring another human being into the world.

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 20:21:09

Wondering, your post at 19.53 makes me think that you are unable to comprehend what I have written. I have given an explanation when I am not obliged to give any. I am not the mother of you. Nor do we know each other. My life will not affect yours. Yet you feel compelled to press me for information about my sex life and my choice of contraception. If you are happy to list every sexual encounter you have had and what type of contraception you used each time, then I am happy to reword my earlier posts in simpler language for you to understand.

I thank you for your comment that you believe I need to do some growing up. I should like to ask you to actually provide some advice that I can use (being unable to advance my state of growth any faster than how nature intends). For the record, commenting that I should have used contraception is not advice, it is nitpicking at my mistake. To advise is to suggest how one may act in the future. For example, Arcane I think you should make sure that you always use contraception in future sexual encounters, unless actively planning a child.

As this is all entirely irrelevant to my original post (I asked for advice about how to handle the confusing behaviour of the father), I would now also like to go off on a tangent and offer you some advice: go and get on with your life doing something purposeful rather than hassling me. Perhaps some voluntary work where you could put your social skills to good use?

LisaMed Tue 09-Apr-13 20:23:08

wondering I was really ill after taking the MAP (many years ago so it may have changed) but I was vomiting and horrific mood swings and all sorts. It doesn't always suit. Why are you trying to make this the OP's fault?

5madthings Tue 09-Apr-13 20:27:22

The map isnt a big deal to you wondering thats your choice. Others dont agree with it for many reasons and it doesnt always prevent a oregnancy anyway.

I also many years ago and it made me ill and messed up my menstrual cycle for a while, i wouldnt take it again.

SlambangSweepstakeQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 20:28:12

Arcane - sounds to me like you'll be a great mum. You have the grit and wit needed. Congratulations on your baby!

And I'd agree, you go after the bugger for as much as you can in financial terms. One day your child may ask what their father did for them. Even if he doesn't have it in him to be a good father, a least your child will know that you gave him the opportunity to be accountable.

I know 2 people, one now adult one a teen, who have grown up not knowing their dads at all. For both of them to learn that despite their father's absence, he has regularly contributed financially throughout their childhood has helped them to come to terms with not having a 'hands-on' dad.

MAP makes you really ill and guess can still get pregnant on it!

(I did)

Yes, she could've and this may not have happened but she didn't, that's her choice & she needed practical advice on how to manage the communication & contact issues between her & The Ex, not judgey comments about how it all came to be.

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 20:38:29

Slambang, that's a really good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. If the father does end up contributing, it will show some degree of support. This won't be a good substitution for being a loving involved father, but it will be something.

ArcaneAsylum Tue 09-Apr-13 20:44:08

Oops, posted too soon!

I have given him the chance to be involved and haven't cut off ties with him. If he changes his mind, he knows how to contact me. The decision is now his as to how he wants to proceed. I am more concerned that he may get more involved at some point and then change his mind again than I am at being a single parent. I feel like it's more stable for a child to have no father than one who dips in and out of their life.

MiniPenguinMaker Tue 09-Apr-13 21:07:23

The MAP failed when I took it! I have taken it twice - first time it worked, second time it didn't. The effectiveness is actually quite low compared to other forms of contraception, which is why it is an emergency measure rather than something to rely on regularly...

Got to say - all women react differently. I had no problems with it either time. Besides, er, the pregnancy that resulted the second time blush

Arcane - well done you. It sounds like you're managing it brilliantly. It's a difficult choice to make, between an absent father and an occasionally-around-but-crap father. I am not sure which is better or worse out of the two, but if you follow your instinct I suspect you will find you have a preference.

God, all the judgy posters on here. How incredibly unhelpful. Big up to the 'my body my fecking choice' camp. He could've worn a condom or avoided sex if he didn't want to be giving the damn sperm away!

Midwife99 Tue 09-Apr-13 21:36:04

Morning after pill failed on me after a condom split. I even had an implanon put it within a week of that happening but was still pregnant 4 weeks later. These things happen. Blame not helpful whether it's contraceptive failure or drunken coercion or just a mad moment.

ATouchOfStuffing Tue 09-Apr-13 21:36:18

Arcane - yes that's how I felt for the first 6 months re:dipping in/out. It was all on his terms; he would be late, not turn up and/or be drunk when he did. Horrid. It was far easier for me (yes, me, not DD but she was only 6mo and had no idea who he was anyway) when he got into his new relationship and washed his hands of her. I still offered him to see her in a contact centre (as otherwise it he would only see her in my house which was intrusive and messy - guess who was expected to tidy up?) and the judge who confirmed he had to pay CSA asked his g.f to make him really think about it (ex was trying to convince the judge that him meeting DD when he was 18 was a more romantic idea hmm ie less work/money involvement from him ) Everyone can support them in ways to see their kids, but some men just don't. It will take time to see which way he will go, and as I said I still fear the 'drop in' from him as he did before begging me not to proceed with CSA as he had liver failure and I was forcing him to drink hmm (yep crock of shite too along with moving to Spain), so I would suggest re-locating for your own peace of mind and meeting in a mutual place if you have to meet up. The dad doesn't need any more power over you than you are willing to give. Knowing where you live if he hasn't decided to be a proper dad isn't constructive. I hope that is possible. Am currently counting down the months until we move!

Scrazy Tue 09-Apr-13 22:02:39

I'm disgusted with some of the posters on this thread. My advice OP would be to leave this guy out of it. I wouldn't rush into contacting the CSA or asking for money. You cannot do this until the baby is here as you also cannot put his name on the birth certificate without him being present.

See how you feel when your lovely baby is born. If you can manage OK without money from him then give it more time and see what happens. You might find that it isn't worth the stress. CSA will assess him at 15% of his income, but that will be reduced if he has another child to support. What is his financial situation? Does he have a reasonable job, because if not or if he is in and out of work or self employed his can duck and dive out of paying a penny.

That is my practical advise. I was in what some posters on here would consider a definite terminations case. I was 14 years older than DD's father and he was very young. I so wanted the baby, went to work when she was only 3 months old, supported us both with the help of family. She is my only as I wanted to do a good job with just the one. I felt ever so guilty sometimes that her father didn't want to be involved. I didn't want money from him but reluctantly got a token, eventually, which I saved for her.

She is a lovely young lady now with a very bright future ahead of her.

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy, your child is lucky to be so wanted by you. It's not easy going it alone but the rewards are so worth it.

kickassangel Tue 09-Apr-13 22:39:14

Arcane, you may not care about this, but some reasons for going for CSA includes the practical issues of support and planning for the future. There are other reasons, including that perhaps y making someone financially responsible they may learn to be more socially responsible, and others may also think more carefully about their actions if they can't get out of paying. The more that women refuse to just puts up with the crap and instead stand up for the rights of themselves and their children, the more that they will be respected.

I wouldn't believe him about Turkey, he's not Mr Reliable.

And I don't think you should have to accept any responsibility for getting pregnant as you did. It sounds like he has full responsibility, co-ercing you into sex after you had been drinking. I think he is 100% responsible for being a sex pest (aka rapist) and you are one of his victims. The fact that you are not rolling over, but can still stand up for yourself is brilliant, and I am loving your replies on here.

LittleEdie Tue 09-Apr-13 22:45:59

The trouble with getting money (that you don't really need) through the CSA is that it will be prolonging his involvement in your life. Who knows if he might not, on a whim, decide to be more involved with the baby. I don't think you can specify supervised contact on the basis of recreational drug use. How would you feel if that happened?

Mumcentreplus Tue 09-Apr-13 23:00:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

perfectstorm Wed 10-Apr-13 00:27:08

Wondering you aren't offering advice. You're being incredibly intrusive (to the point of rather disturbing prurience, to be blunt - are you often this fascinated by other people's sexual arrangements?) and staggeringly rude in your posts. The questions you're asking are none of anyone's damn business and totally irrelevant to the main points.

The trouble with getting money (that you don't really need) through the CSA is that it will be prolonging his involvement in your life. Who knows if he might not, on a whim, decide to be more involved with the baby. I don't think you can specify supervised contact on the basis of recreational drug use. How would you feel if that happened?

Legal aid is now abolished for family court cases unless domestic violence is at issue. Given a friend of mine has spent in excess of 40 thousand pounds just to see his own child, in the teeth of the mother's implacable hostility after a breakup, I can assure you that it isn't a process anyone would undertake unless a genuine abuser wanting to make an ex suffer/a devoted parent. The hoops my friend had to jump through (and it took six months to reach court, during which time there was no contact at all) included observed contact in a contact centre of two hours fortnightly. That was his allowed time with his own child. The reports came back that there was a close and loving bond, and he was "an exemplary parent". The CAFCASS officer sided firmly with him, as did the clinical psychologist. However they also agreed that the mother's mental state was such that overnight visits would not be possible until the child was five, and nor could midweek visits because the child needed to have separation mentally between parents who by then hated one another. There's a reason more than half of all fathers eventually lose contact with children after relationship breakdowns, and it isn't that all are feckless (though yes, miserably only too many men fit that bill, too). Bluntly the reality is that an implacably hostile primary carer can sabotage the relationship, most of the time, if determined enough to do so. In this instance, there wouldn't be a relationship to start with, and he'd have to pay his own way which, however unfair on decent dads, is fantastic for women whose exes use the courts to harass them.

So yes, if Arcane keeps the texts as evidence and provides a full statement of his behaviour and refuses contact on that basis it's highly unlikely this prick will go to the kinds of sustained, dedicated effort and expense necessary to see the child. If she alleges drug use, aggression and instability (his behaviour that night is not roseate and nor is his harassment of late) plus the age of the child and the lack of any existing relationship with that child, then he'd be seeing the child in a contact centre for quite some time - do you really imagine he'd bother?

Whereas the child will benefit, even if only psychologically, in knowing that money was provided for his or her upbringing. And given what is happening with student finance, if that money is place it could ease a lot of stress for the baby when that time comes.

Having said all that, Arcane is an intelligent and independent woman who is perfectly capable of making the best decision in her situation. Good luck Arcane, and congratulations on your lovely baby, too.

Some people basically get very frightened and angry about the idea of women having any kind of sexual autonomy. They shouldn't have sex just because they want to, it should be In A Loving Relationship (ie once they are under male ownership). They should be totally responsible for any pregnancy that occurs, even if that was down to the man raping them, yet they should also be prepared to terminate any pregnancy that occurs if the man tells them to do so, because they are only women and it's only what men want that matters.
OP you'll be fine. You and your baby will be fine. Set the CSA on this man because he should, morally, pay towards the upkeep of his child, but don't expect much from it, he may well vanish. However if he does vanish, have a cover story for your child along the lines of some people being not good at parenting and who run away.

ArcaneAsylum Wed 10-Apr-13 09:28:18

Mumcentreplus, I could easily insult you based on your one post. I don't because it would be immature of me. Can I suggest that you think carefully before you post on other people's threads?

Scrazy Wed 10-Apr-13 09:32:59

Applause SGB on this one.

I only gave the CSA the other parties name, when they came knocking on my door after a few years (period of unemployment of 3 months!!), this was in the old days of the evil CSA, which has since changed in all but name, because I knew the assessment would be small and I was hoping it would take the fear factor away from him being involved with his child. It worked to a point.

hairtearing Wed 10-Apr-13 09:51:46

I agree to an extent SGB but that certainly was not the idea behind my post at all, I'm just curious as to why people have unprotected sex with people they seem to realize have no redeeming qualities, you're lucky to just have caught a baby.

Like I'm sure you'll be a good mum, that wasn't the point I was making. If this had been 'I had an exciting fling with a bloke and now I'm pregnant' I wouldn't have batted an eyelid.

Mumcentreplus Wed 10-Apr-13 10:41:49

I'm only saying what I see Arcaneso i can only comment upon the information provided, this is a public forum not everyone is going to pat you on the back for your decisions perhaps you should think before you post your personal business and not have the expectation you will always get positive answers or opinions.

I don't think you should have had an abortion at all and I think you and your baby will be fine you sound strong and more than able to care for your child, this man is the father of your child so he should pay accordingly it's that simple.
I also think you should have thought more deeply about who you choose to make a child with imo it's a fair wont like it though <shrugs>

ArcaneAsylum Wed 10-Apr-13 10:58:28

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Scrazy Wed 10-Apr-13 11:13:28

There would be a lot less babies born if every one was planned and thought through, perhaps people should got permission from the vicar first before they have sex, you know like they do before they are allowed to marry in church hmm.

PearlyWhites Wed 10-Apr-13 11:26:23

Squeaky have my first biscuit

whatsthatcomingoverthehill Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:10

"I also think you should have thought more deeply about who you choose to make a child with imo it's a fair wont like it though"

It would be a fair comment if the OP had asked about who she should be having babies with. As she didn't do that it is simply sticking the knife in about something that can't be changed and is irrelevant to what is being discussed.

Scrazy Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:17

Was that to me, with the wrong name. If so thanks.

My post was tongue in cheek as accidents can happen to the best of people, whether it is contraception fail or various reasons. It doesn't make someone irresponsible either. I had an unplanned pregnancy and lots of sex in my younger days so 99.9% of the time I was responsible.

Mumcentreplus Wed 10-Apr-13 11:50:04

Arcane I don't believe that saying a person should make better choices about who they choose to make a child with is an insult.. it's something quite basic when having unprotected sex with a partner to ensure within reason that the person is capable of what a child needs, your ex-partner is not the best of the bunch I didn't make it up, I gave advice I advised you that all his intentions will be questionable because of his past actions.
I don't think I was rude to point out you were selfish you pointed this out yourself you admit that you want to keep this baby all to yourself without the distraction of the father.
I have not harassed you, verbally abused you or threatened you I disagreed with your behavior so perhaps you should think more carefully before to throw the bullying word out there I believe it's an divisive and emotive word to use.
You have made assumptions about my life and my circumstances based on a few comments on the web same as I have and using even less information...are you bullying me?

ArcaneAsylum Wed 10-Apr-13 12:11:36

You called me selfish and self absorbed. These are insults. I could judge you based on comments you have made on these public forums. A brief look at an overview of your posts on other threads gives me personal information about you. You are, by your own admission, three stone overweight. Should I comment on your diet and exercise regime? Your husband cheated on you and you took him back. You have a difficult relationship with your mother who had you when she was a teenager. At your wedding you asked people to give you money instead of gifts, which you used to pay for your wedding. By your own code of social conduct, I should be able to comment on these posts because you put them on a public forum. I wouldn't because I don't know you personally and I have no right to comment on your life. Can we please let this drop now?

Sanctimumious Wed 10-Apr-13 12:49:07

You were driven to that ArcaneAssylum

Luckily life isn't like a forum. People will know you and judge you insofar as they judge a friend (which is hopefully not much) on a more personal humane way, with empathy. People seem to lose all empathy on line I think. 95% of people will be happy for you, the vast majority of people won't think that your child needs pity! They will see you working and raising a child on your own and will know that they struggle to do it with help. Please don't feel the weight of online trial in your pregnancy. I have at times allowed myself to believe that everybody in real life is judging me, based only on the comments from judgemental strangers online. It's an interesting in dichotomy alright the fact that in your real life, I can almost guarantee you that your friends and family will just support you and admire you and be excited about the new life you're bringing to the family, and to your circle of friends. ONLY on line will you feel hung drawn and quartered for going it alone.

Sanctimumious Wed 10-Apr-13 13:01:43

I agree with SGB's post.

As for the MAP, it is a big deal. How dare women condone men's sloppiness with condoms on the grounds that a woman ought to pop an MAP ?

Mumcentreplus Wed 10-Apr-13 13:03:28

Well that's creepy hmm never realize how much personal stuff you say about yourself..

I said you sound selfish and self absorbed.. I only took my opinion based on the information you provided.

You said yourself you were selfish ??? and in the same way you just concluded I was unhappy that's why I come on to threads and insult people...

None of what you have said about me are lies comment away if you wish I'm sure other people did...but would it be appropriate to comment on them now? it appropriate to search a poster in the way you have? maybe I drove you to it ...hmm

You just spent time checking all the threads I have commented on about personal things so you can use them as what?? proof that I'm fat, I have a mother who gets on my nerves a husband who cheated and I used my monetary gifts from my wedding to pay for the food? you don't think that's strange?
As I said it's a public forum..and you just showed how public it can be...people can and will comment you can revisit all those old threads and give me a good bashing if that will make you feel better wink
I do however take on board the comment made by what that perhaps my comment was twisting the knife...

ArcaneAsylum Wed 10-Apr-13 13:17:16

No, frankly, it doesn't make me feel better. I have worked so hard to get out of the habit of thinking the terrible thoughts I'm inclined towards when I feel low. Did your comments bring all that back to me? Yes. I tried not to let it get to me when people on here criticised me for all manner of things. You weren't the only one, but you are the last straw. You're probably quite happy to get on with your day and think no more of me but your words have had an effect on me since I read them. Do I think I'm a worthless human being that is better off dead? Yes. Thank you for reminding me of that. I've truly had enough. It's obvious that mumsnet isn't for me, so feel free to post whatever you like about me. I won't be back.

Sanctimumious Wed 10-Apr-13 13:24:30

oh mumcentreplus ! maybe sorry is the word you're searching for?? confused

ArcaneAssylum made the point that you too have left yourself wide open for criticism and judgement. You have provided the ammunition and she did not use it. You can joke about redressing the balance, snidely suggest the op might 'feel better' if she let rip on your ass. But fact is, she rose above that! She isn't the one who posted critical judgements on the thread of a poster looking for support and advice.

Scrazy Wed 10-Apr-13 13:25:50

Arcane, are you OK?

Life doesn't always pan out as we expect it to does it. You might make babies with the most perfect person, then it all goes wrong.

GingerBlondecat Wed 10-Apr-13 13:26:33

(((((((((((soft hugs))))))))))) Arcane.
You will make a great Mum <3

Well ignoring whats been said in the last few pages!

I had ds1 whilst in a loving relationship of sorts (we were very young) after we split he stayed in ds1s life consistently until he was around 10. Since then he's been in and out, which at times has been quite painful for ds. He has managed to pay 2 years maintenance out of 13.

Tbh if you can afford not to take maintenance I wouldn't. He might decide that if he's paying he wants access, if you leave it he may not bother contacting you again.

Good look with the rest of your pg, I'm sure you will do just fine as a single parent! Children grow up fine without a father when they have other loving supportive family members. They can also grow up well adjusted and fine even with an arse of a father who comes on and out of their life, ds1 has! He's 18 now and even though he doesn't think much of his dad he does have a very good relationship with his gps and aunts/uncles etc


Don't leave mn due to a few posters, you will find lots of fantastic support on here x

Mumcentreplus Wed 10-Apr-13 13:36:57

I'm truly sorry I didn't want to make you feel that way ..I was thought less and didn't think about the impact my words would have on you, I got caught up in the exchange please accept my apology and heart-felt regret for making you feel the way you do.
MN is a good place please don't leave, there are lovely ladies here who will give you support and good sound advice.
I wont come back on your thread again once again I'm sorry x

GotAnyGrapes Wed 10-Apr-13 14:41:30

Well OP, I have just spent ages reading your thread. I was totally on your side, felt you were reasonable and mature and ready for motherhood. Contraception is irrelevant here and it is totally your decision whether to continue with the pregnancy and totally your decision to expect the father to contribute.
However, I think you have been very unreasonable with your response to MCP. She was merely echoing what you had stated yourself re being selfish (which you have a right to be here). You have received excellent advice and support here. Don't spoil it by being petulant and trying to dictate what posters are allowed to point out. And please don't trawl other threads and produce a 'collage' of what another poster has divulged about themselves on other, unrelated threads. That is really bad form.

Don't leave MN. If you are about to become a mother you will find it hugely supportive. But please don't strop at someone posting a relatively inoffensive post even if it isn't what you want to hear and don't refer to their other posts. It really, really isn't nice. Good luck with the rest if your pregnancy and with motherhood in general. I'm sure you'll be fine!

ATouchOfStuffing Wed 10-Apr-13 15:41:25

1. Look at the threads on Relationships mum - hundreds of people on here planned/married/spent years with men who essentially have run away when the woman falls pg. You cannot say 'thinking more carefully' would have helped all of them too, surely?
2. Everyone who says don't take CA in case he turns up - my point is that he can turn up REGARDLESS. You may as well get a nest egg from him.

Hope you are still reading. Many more posters on here are offering you support than being judgy and rude smile x

fromparistoberlin Wed 10-Apr-13 16:10:11

firstly, I hate it when people get hurt on an online forum. relationships is almost as bad as AIBU. I mean that to both OP and Mumscentre!

I agree with whoever said that if you ask for CSA, you have to be open to allowing contract. so think very hard if you think he would be good dad , or not? Look, if in doubt, do nowt I say? you dont have to decide today, or tomorrow

what about his family, sisters etc? Think about that too

and PLEASE dont feel bad, I personally admire you for going it alone. Its very brave. wishing you every luck and a bouncing baby!

ATouchOfStuffing Wed 10-Apr-13 17:21:02

Contact from the father is in no way linked to CSA.
He is allowed contact by law regardless of whether he is paying or has ever paid for his child.

ATouchOfStuffing Wed 10-Apr-13 17:23:35

OP - re above - if he does seem to want contact, which as I say I doubt (men tend to prefer to run away and hide as I said before) and you think it is an issue then Contact Centres can be used until you can get him to Court to prove his drugs etc make him unfit to see them unattended. As said previously. I doubt he will hang on for that long though.
Hope you are still reading. I had terrible hormones in pg, hope you are OK & we won't shout/bite or anything if you come back on, promise! x

MandragoraWurzelstock Wed 10-Apr-13 17:59:33

I didn't mean to suggest that avoiding going for maintenance was a way of keeping the chap away.

All I meant was that pursuing financial support is likely, with some men, to make them want their 'money's worth' (sorry - horrible) or they will use it to continue their abuse or control attempts - while if you don't ask them for money they may be more motivated to stay away, or less motivated to try and be involved with your child, and by default, with you.

Obviously this is just applicable in some cases and only a suggestion.

perfectstorm Wed 10-Apr-13 19:20:14

Arcane I hope you're okay.

ArcaneAsylum1 Thu 11-Apr-13 12:27:36

I know I promised that I wouldn't be back but I felt I needed to to put my mind to rest, not to mention not wanting other posters to worry about me.

Mumcentreplus, thank you for your apology. I am sorry if I caused you any offence. Like I said, you weren't the only person who made me feel bad and it wasn't fair of me to unleash on you.

Since I posted on this website five days ago to ask for advice, I have been criticised for the following things:

1. Not using any contraception
2. Not using the morning after pill
3. Not having an abortion
4. Having sex with someone who wasn't fit to be a father 
5. Wanting to keep my child away from a situation where I couldn't guarantee their safety
6. Being honest about my feelings when I was upset.

The whole point I'm making is that these things could not be changed. They are my choices and I have a right to make them. In hindsight, of course we would change things we have done in the past. If only we could turn back time, we wouldn't make any mistakes would we?

The father of my baby appeared to be a loving father to his daughter (he is), an intelligent man (he can be) and a friend (he was as far as it suited him). I truthfully didn't expect him to be overjoyed that I was pregnant, but I certainly did not expect the barrage of vile messages I received from him. Do I regret having unprotected sex with him? Of course I do, it's not something I'm proud of and isn't something I would advise anyone to do. Do I regret deciding to keep my baby? Not one bit. My baby is very much wanted, very much loved and will know that every day of his or her life.

I have received some great advice on here, it's true, but for me it is tarnished with the ill-conceived and thoughtless responses of others. The Mumsnet rule appears to be that as you are giving away personal information, you have every right to expect to be criticised and to have your life and choices commented on. 

For me, it is the equivalent of a child's first day at school. That child dares to say that they are worried about something. They are among a group of strangers but look to them for advice. Some are great and offer their support, wanting to help their peer by sharing their own experiences and wisdom. Others, even if only a minority, start to heckle the child, questioning their past actions, blaming them for their problem, insulting them as they see fit. What would you as a parent do in this situation? You go immediately to a figure of authority in the school and demand that these children be punished, that they are made to realise the error of their ways and that any further attempt to repeat their behaviour will be shut down. The word bullying is used because the child didn't provoke these other children, he just asked them for help. The difference between me and that child? I'm an adult. It doesn't mean that I don't have feelings.

I don't know any good parent that would be happy with an unprovoked verbal attack on their child. Likewise, I cannot imagine that if mumsnet was a social group where people met in real life that they would be as harsh or judgemental as they are on the Internet. Some people on this site use the cloak of anonymity to their advantage to say things they wouldn't dare to in real life. It doesn't mean that people don't think these things- I'm guilty of judging others on their behaviour when in reality I don't know much about them- but a code of social conduct stops us from saying these things out loud because we know it would be hurtful. The internet seems to remove this social barrier. 

I think it is a shame that I can't see myself using mumsnet again because I think it's a terrific idea to connect people who may not be able to meet in real life otherwise. However, I have tried to ignore it when people have written hurtful things. It continued until I could feel myself getting truly upset by it. I tried to explain myself, thinking that if they understood more about my situation they might be more considerate. That didn't work so I used humour to deflect. Still it didn't stop, so I tried asking outright for a poster to think carefully about the consequences of their words. No effect, it just spurred them on. I tried demonstrating that it is very easy to obtain information about a person based on their posts and that it could be just as easy to turn the tables on them and hurt them thoughtlessly. This received further criticism. My last attempt to stop any more nastiness was to say that I was hurting from what they said. They immediately apologised. It shouldn't have got this far to show that words do have consequences. 

I agree, it is bad form to look through a person's posts to find their weaknesses. Is it any different to reading a person's thread though? The result is the same: the reader gains information about that person. They form an opinion about that person's behaviour or life based on the sparse information they are given. They then have a choice whether to share that opinion, even if it will only serve to hurt the recipient and make them feel bad about things they cannot necessarily change.

Yes, I am sensitive. I do take offence if I think I am being criticised in a way that is not constructive. I have a right to be. It is my nature and I cannot change it, I can only try to change my reactions. So after all that, Mumsnet really isn't the place for me: I can't guarantee that I'll be able to read criticism and not be hurt by it. As much as I am pleased by all the sound, mature advice I have received, the risk of getting hurt is not one I wish to take.

WouldBeHarrietVane Thu 11-Apr-13 12:34:09

I think that is a great post op.

Fwiw a study recently found the vast majority of people have had unprotected sex. Including many posters on here no doubt.

There but for the grace of god blush

Please stay - relationships and aibu are not typical of MN.

I have had so much support here on the mc boards and antenatal threads. I think there was a pg lone parents thread running at that time. I am absolutely sure they would be unjudgey and totally supportive.

Un MN hugs to you.

skyebluesapphire Thu 11-Apr-13 12:39:04

sorry you feel like this OP but a really good post. I have encountered some of the harsher side of MN, from really judgemental people, who dont like it if you think differently to them, or do something that they wouldnt do. People seem to forget that there are real feelings involved and that everybody is made up differently and deals with things differently.
Just remember that everybody has their own problems.

Please stay, but maybe shift to pregnancy or lone parents where you wont be judged so much.

perfectstorm Thu 11-Apr-13 12:40:51

I know this is probably no comfort, but I've rarely read a thread on Relationships that has made me angrier, in terms of unprovoked nastiness aimed at the original poster. I'm so sorry you had to deal with the narrow minded, judgemental, bloody RUDE postings of some people here. Again, all I can say is that I don't often see this sort of behaviour in the Relationships thread. It's upsetting, because people here want support. And I don't think you've done anything deserving of nastiness at all. I've seen people having affairs get more understanding than you did - I think SGB is right; women having unconventional arrangements and daring to be okay with that threaten some women (perhaps unhappy in their own very conventional set-ups? Who knows) and they attack on that basis.

For the record, my own marriage is very conventional and very happy, and our son was born within it. So I'm not defensive or trying to justify my own choices when I say that all kinds of family set-ups work as long as the child is loved, secure, well-cared for, and not exposed to acrimony and anger.

Arcane you will be fine and so will your baby - I know you know that, but it's bloody obvious to me, too. And I hope you haven't been too hurt by what I can only agree was an episode of bullying here. I've noticed before that bullying always seems to happen when people post nasty, judgemental statements about a poster's life choices, then fall back on, "but it's only advice! That's what you came for." Bullshit. Nobody comes online, asking for help and support, because they want to be insulted and sniped at. It's horrible.

perfectstorm Thu 11-Apr-13 12:42:30

Oh, and according to the Family Planning Association, half of all pregnancies are unplanned. So the sniffy judgementalists are perhaps also in many cases big fat fucking hypocrites.

LittleEdie Thu 11-Apr-13 12:51:21

Have you name changed OP?

I think a lot of people use mumsnet as a place to get support by proxy. There are so many different threads and some of them are bound to be similar to what you are going through, and the advice offered relevant. So you can stay, recieve support (albeit not tailored perfectly to your situation) and not risk attack. You will never be able to guarentee who is answering you and judgy people feel emboldened by anonymity.

If you have been so hurt by the comments on this thread then I agree it would probably be best not to start your own threads. People on here can not know what your reaction will be and are not responsible for your feeling suicidal.

WouldBeHarrietVane Thu 11-Apr-13 12:58:38

Eddie, I don't agree that people aren't to know - they know being unkind hurts!

I think just as carefully when I reply to people here as I would do to people who I met in RL.

If someone in RL told me they were pg and the father was being reluctant I would NEVER ask them how it happened or start commenting on contraception/criticising! I would answer the questions she asked and try to help and offer some support.

We owe a responsibility to everyone we interact with, here and in RL to be kind.

Arcane has reacted no differently than most people would faced with these comments.

Arcane, you sound like you care very much for this baby - please come and join the pg board where there is loads of info and support and the antenatal club thread for women due in your month. We had a lovely student going it alone on our thread.

ATouchOfStuffing Thu 11-Apr-13 13:24:17

Good luck Arcane. As I said if you want any other advice or just a chat you can always PM me. I remember getting similar nasties pop up and feeling terrible for weeks when I was pg - seemingly mainly because I had dared to keep the baby - and I remember how it made me feel. It's horrible when you are low and alone and facing the biggest challenge of your life. In hindsight I would say MN is full of various people. Unfortunately there are always a few who pop by and post carelessly and seemingly without any sympathy at all. Try not to judge all of us because a few people haven't tried to see how you feel or why you made a decision. smile
You know you can do this. Keep strong and just remember that just because other people wouldn't have done what you do, doesn't make their way better. Agree that Lone Parents is a good place to look if you want to come back again (believe me so many things go through your mind you will be glad of the support - again, ignoring any nasties) so I hope you can use it to it's full potential. I had pg insomnia and found myself reading and posting about all sorts. Quite an eye opener, some of it!

perfectstorm Thu 11-Apr-13 13:35:32

People on here can not know what your reaction will be and are not responsible for your feeling suicidal.

A person who doesn't know nasty, spiteful and extremely personal comments on someone in a vulnerable situation will hurt the person they are aiming that behaviour at has no business whatsoever having children. Someone with that little understanding of basic human emotions is not capable of nurturing anyone, and I shudder to imagine the emotional havoc they might unleash on the poor little scraps entrusted to their care.

I am assuming the women choosing to be that unpleasant are not sociopaths without empathetic capacity, and choose not to behave that way in their day to day, real life interactions. Therefore one can assume they know saying hurtful things can hurt people - and are choosing intentionally to do so online. Making the reaction entirely predictable, and their posting choices their own responsibility.

Please do explain where that logic escapes you. hmm

Sanctimumious Thu 11-Apr-13 13:36:13

Yeah, different circs, but will never forget how it felt, to realise I was facing the next two decades of parenting as a single parent and to have received nothing but criticism and judgement online.

Good luck to you. As somebody said upthread, you have wit and you have grit! I think you've been gracious in the line of fire, although fair play to mumcentreplus for apologising. Not everybody can cough up the word sorry!

If you come back, definitely post in lone parents, I've never received any criticism or judgement there.

perfectstorm Thu 11-Apr-13 13:42:27

Yeah, I also think mumcentreplus was great to apologise. Nobody else has shown that sort of grace.

Arcane honestly, Mumsnet can be amazing when things are hard. It's been a horrible thread, this one. It's not typical and I could link you to a dozen others that are amazingly supportive, often in situations where the OP was scared she would be judged (post-natal depression and failure to bond, for example). I'm so sorry you had to cope with the sort of nonsense you have on here, when all you wanted was some support and some genuinely helpful opinions on moving forward.

wispa31 Thu 11-Apr-13 18:48:19

not read all of thread but just chipping in re CSA. if you can afford not to, dont. im ashamed to say i work in CSA. you do not want the shit and hassle and disappointment that comes with it. im probably far too late in the day saying any of this as probably all been said anyway.
if i was to end up in a similar situ i wouldnt use CSA.
i hear this all the time on the phone 'he/she refusing to pay, etc. makes my blood boil at the attitude of those pricks who unfortunately decided to fuck off their children. depresses me no end. i really need to get another job.

themidwife Thu 11-Apr-13 19:06:19

My ex still owes me £2k from CSA payments from when my DCs were younger. CSA don't even reply to my emails about it!

MoominsYonisAreScary Thu 11-Apr-13 23:22:52

The CSA wrote off some of the money I was owed, no idea why and think it's a bloody cheek seeing as he only paid probably 14 payments in 14 years!

Agree with wispa it's not worth the stress, anger and frustration, my ex just went self employed every time they got hold of him

wispa31 Fri 12-Apr-13 00:00:15

the midwife
even if your dc no longer qualify for child support any outstanding money still unpaid can still be pursued, if you want it that is. if emails arent getting a response id suggest writing to your mp (again if you want to pursue the matter. end of day its a matter of principle.)

moomins - your arrears shouldnt have been written off if you didnt want it. id query it.
dont even get me started on s/e nrps. they are the worst. esp the company directors. too many ways for them to get around things. a friend of mine ended up pregnant after a casual encounter. his parents were 'society folk' very well to do and loaded, they tried to get her to terminate by offering her money. she didnt. she opened a case with CSA and and any assets/shares/anything to do with family estate/business in his name were suddenly signed over to other family members and he went on the dole. bastard.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 00:12:12

As a man I'm shocked at the selfishness of the OP

I think squeaky has hit the nail on the proverbial head

WouldBeHarrietVane Fri 12-Apr-13 00:13:17

What selfishness?

Just daft and have you not read the rest of the thread?

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 00:23:32

(Quote)poppylemons Sun 07-Apr-13 22:36:02
I will get flamed for this, but -

You have sex with each other with/without contraception, who knows. You are pregnant, he makes it clear from the beginning he is totally against it. You decide to proceed with the pregnancy, he has no choice though he has made it clear to you it is not what he wants.
Now you are going to go through the CSA and get maintenance from him for the next 18 odd years.

This happens all too often and even if he is a dick, I feel for him. It IS a kind of theft in a way.

Have some pride and bring up the child you wanted without going through the CSA. You said yourself you can afford it. I can see why he is angry enough to resort to calling you 'sperm thief'. (Quote/)

The attitude of 95% of the posters is staggering. All men should read this. The above quote is correct.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 00:32:12

Bollocks hedley a man can choose to control his fertility, he can have a vasectomy, use a condom or just not have sex!!! If he chooses to have sex with no contraception he is risking a pregnancy and even if he uses a condom there is a chance it may fail.
That is a CHOICE that he is making and in choosing to do so he is responsible for any child created.

So yes they have to pay child support, if you don't want I suggest you use a condom (but be aware it can fail) have the snip, or just don't have sex.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 00:32:57

It is not bloody theft, she didn't force him to have sex.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 00:41:49

My wife left this page open on the mac. I can see I don't belong here. It's another world.

I'm just really shocked .... Actually horrified

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 00:44:35

Really cos I know plenty of men who are perfectly aware they are responsible for their own fertility and if they don't want a child they use contraception.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 00:49:12

Its actually quite sad that someone would be shocked and horrified that a man has to support a child that HE has created. Sex can make babies...if it does the mother and father are equally responsible for that child. Either can choose to walk away and not be actively involved in bringing the child up, but they still have to pay child support.

Its really quite simple.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 00:52:10

I have 4 kids and I'm aware of contraception

There's only one winner here. No wonder this county is in the shit. Everyone is just so selfish. I want, I get, to hell with anyone else

Wife is back and is angry as hell with me now for posting my views

Not here to offend. Apologies if that's how I've come across

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 00:55:47

What is selfish about wanting a father to provide for his child?

Not understanding why this means the country is in shit?!!

If I was your wife I would be pissed off as well, that I was with a man who has such a crap mysogonistic view of women.

Sparklyboots Fri 12-Apr-13 00:55:56

Yes, it's another world here, where we view men and women as equally responsibile and culpable when it comes to fertility and being parents. Some of us actually object to the way that some men regard their responsibilities to their offspring as a lifestyle choice! Or the way they try to make women have abortions so they don't have to face the possible consequences of unprotected sex! I personally get extremely vexed when those self-same men respond with abuse and vitriol to the women that they think should have to bring up their own offspring alone and unsupported remind them that they had a role to play in the creation of that life, but there again I am a feminist so it's only natural that I tend towards such extreme views.

Sparklyboots Fri 12-Apr-13 00:57:36

I want, I get, to hell with anyone else - perfect description of the attitude that the man in the OP displayed WRT sex.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 01:00:02

Yes sparkly it does rather describe the father of the op's baby.

fortyplus Fri 12-Apr-13 01:02:34

The woman has the choice whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy - the man does not. There would be outrage if the man had any say in whether or not a child resulted from the prgnancy.

I can't see how that makes it fair that a man should have to pay child maintenance if the woman decides to keep the baby.

I do believe that men should take responsibility for contraception but women have the upper hand here.

ps I am one!

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 01:06:29

Basic biology dictates that a woman chooses to have or not have a baby. A man has to make his choice at the point he has sex, use contraception it don't have sex.

Its fairly simple.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 01:17:26

Be careful fortyplus, you'll be branded a mysogonist like me for thinking the OP is acting selfish without a care in the world about the opinions of the father

The advice here is rather biased and not a healthy mix of male & female views

Like someone above said, "I'm a feminist with extreme opinions"

Surely the sensible compromise is OP has baby, already admitted she can afford it and judging by the tone of her posts will make it very difficult for him to have a fair relationship with the child

Sparklyboots Fri 12-Apr-13 01:18:15

FWIW I think the notion that women have the 'option' to abort equates as 'the upper hand' rather overlooks the reality of abortion, which is at best, quite unpleasant. I'm more inclined to the view that if you just put a condom on, you've done your 'bit', you have the upper hand, and that if you decide to have nothing to do with an unplanned pregnancy, people will not write you off as extreme, unnatural or desparate (think of how we view mothers that walk out on their children), you have the upper hand, and that if your whole culture treats your right to unprotected sex with women as part of what makes you essentially you (rather than a slut/ sperm theif/ devious/ stupid person), you have the upper hand, that if sex in your culture is defined in terms which privelge your desire to orgasm through penetrative sex, you have the upper hand. I am sick of having to thank the world for my 'option' to abort, which has so rapidly become my obligation at the risk of my physical and mental health.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 01:24:18

Well said sparkly

MaBumble Fri 12-Apr-13 01:42:57

I honestly think this thread is just so sad, the OP needed advice and support and its been totally hijacked and she's probably left. FFS if you want a debate get your judgmental arses over to AIBU and start your own thread!

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 02:05:35

agree with forty and hedley.

Basically the facts you're laying down here is - that when a man has sex he is basically choosing to be a parent and it's then up to the woman wether to continue should she become pregnant.
All very well and good in theory but we all know (come on people) a man is not really making that HUGE LIFE CHANGING DECISION - to be a parent - every time he has sex. You are even stating if he uses a condom he is STILL making the decision to become a parent because of the 1% failure rule. Pie in the sky.

It should be a joint decision. But it's not, like you said biology states its not because no man can force a woman to get rid of a baby.
But just because that's the way it is does not make it fair.

I had my DS with my ex, he wanted to start a family and so did I, no resistance to pregnancy whatsoever. His income capacity has always been extremely poor and i knew this when I had a baby with him. We split up and i never claimed maintenance with him because I took responsibility for the fact that I chose to have a child with someone who couldn't realistically afford to pay maintenance if we ever split up.

But obviously I'm weird.

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 02:10:29

sparkly no one said you or OP or anyone obligated to abort - she wanted baby, she can keep baby. The question I think is the claiming maintenance.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 02:20:55

In the op he tried to pressure her into an abortion.

And yes when msn has sex he does so with the knoeledge he may create a child. We all do, men and women and we are equally responsible for that child.

The op may not need the money at the moment but none of us know how the future will pan out so doing as she has suggested and saving child maintenance for the child is very sensible.

Everyone is talkkmg about whats fair to thr man. Well tough shit its actually about what is fair for the child and that is that they are supported by both their parents. You cannot make amyone be an involved parent if they dont want to be, but you can.make them.step up to their financial responsibilities and that is the right thimg to do for the child.

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 02:26:39

I understand what you are saying but it doesn't stop me thinking it's unfair. I think a lot of blokes must learn these lessons the hard way. I feel for children in these situations but I am sure OP will do a great job with her baby.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 02:33:08

Oh yes these poor men that learn the jard way
ffs its basoc sex education, men arent stupid! Your posts are actually offensive to the majority of men who have a braon and who also have the morals to support their children.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 02:33:24

Have brains...

Machli Fri 12-Apr-13 03:10:27

Yes people seem to forget that sex is actually for the SOLE purpose of procreating. It wasn't invented as a fun past time after a few cocktails in a club or entertainment on a par with the latest blockbuster, it's actually SUPPOSED to create a baby.

Saying that the man should not be made responsible for HIS actions and that he should be allowed to have sex just because it feels nice then not have to face up to the possible pregnancy arising is nonsensical and quite frankly misogynistic. Because the woman doesn't get any choice in facing up to it one way or another does she?

Why the actual fuck does she and most importantly her child have to carry full responsibility for an act that's sole purpose is to create life and every time you do it no matter what contraceptive measures you take there is a chance that a pregnancy could result. Disgusting stance IMO.

MoominsYonisAreScary Fri 12-Apr-13 03:20:25

Men can choose to wear a condom, have the snip or just not have sex with women they don't want to have children with. Simple

If they don't they are fully aware that it may result in pregnancy and they could end up paying maintenance.

The op has already stated they had unprotected sex. I wouldn't feel to sorry for him when he didn't even try to prevent a pregnancy.

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 06:46:58

none of you are accepting the reality of attitudes toward sex. 'He SHOULD do this, think that, because IT IS like this or that.'

You must live in a bubble where these perfect men exist. Sex is a seriously powerful urge BECAUSE of procreation. Doesn't mean they're thinking 'I'm doing this to procreate' when theyre doing it. Get real.

WouldBeHarrietVane Fri 12-Apr-13 06:59:47

Obviously many many men believe men always have financial responsibility for any child they produce, because a make dominated parliament and judiciary made it so.

It is very simple. If you have sex and create a child both parties bear financial responsibility to the child. That is the legal position.

Pressuring your partner to have an abortion or refusing to take that responsibility is appalling.

WouldBeHarrietVane Fri 12-Apr-13 07:00:34

Male not make

Sparklyboots Fri 12-Apr-13 09:04:26

'none of you are accepting the reality of attitudes toward sex' well, actually we are- we're just objecting to it, on the basis that current attitudes suppose that women are responsible for pregnancy while men are only responsible for responding to a 'powerful urge' and it's not their fault the woman conceived. WTF?

And let's be clear - he's not even being asked to be half responsible. No one will require contact let alone responsibility for providing half of the childcare, ensuring half the necessary medical care, actually organising half the meals, schooling, providing anything approaching half the labour hours that it takes to provide a habitable home, complete with the guidance and input it takes to provide the emotional, psychological, and physical well-being that children need, which the woman in this position is taking responsibility for. He's not going even to be asked to provide half the costs- just make a contribution based on his income. But he's a grown man who was just as culpable/ capable of taking control of the potential outcomes of the act HE CHOSE to engage in. And somehow this is unfair on HIM? Please fuck off.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 09:46:55

Ffs 'this powerful urge' men are not animals!!

I dont live in a bubble no, i live in the rl world were many intelligentvmen and women believe they are equally responsible for a child they create.

gottoget would you let a man use the excuse of a man having a "powerful urge" to have sex be his defence for rape? You say he cant control.his urge enough to be able to think about contraception so why would he be able to control it enough to make sure the woman consrnts?

Fgs read back what you have wrutten,you are reducingen to animals who are solely controlled by their sex drive. Then you think they should be able to abducate responsibility for maintenance because its not fair?!!
Ffs!! Read sparklys posts as well gottoget and wake up!!

acceptableinthe80s Fri 12-Apr-13 10:15:56

Mumsnet at it's worst. OP came here for advice and mentioned way back she suffers with depression. Nothing like kicking someone when they're down. The father HAD a choice to use a condom, he didn't, he is legally required to provide for the child he willingly created. End of.

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 10:20:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 10:22:16

So if this urge to procreate is so overwhelming and impossible to deny, I'm sure women have it too. Why is it the woman's fault but not the man's?

It takes two to make a baby, and both people have a responsibility here. I'm totally appalled by some of the attitudes here.

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 10:26:48

gottogetup, choosing to have a baby clearly is a joint decision. It's a well known hazard of heterosexual sex! Whoops, my willy just accidentally ended up in a lady's fanjo? Really?

It just so happens that the man's decisions relating to his body happen at an earlier stage - should I have a vasectomy? Should I sleep with somebody? Should I use contraception?

Loulybelle Fri 12-Apr-13 10:34:02

If a man chooses to recklessly abandon his sperm in capacity, then he has to face up to those consequences of doing so.

We teach children the consequences in the actions they choose, so where does that stop for men.

Dont take action to prevent pregnancy face the consequences. Arcane has accepted responsibility of making a child, i tell you, if she had an abortion, people would be screaming at her, that she was stupid and unfair to blame a child for being conceived.

Why do men not get the same treatment?

Its like the idiocy that women tempt men so much that men just have to commit rape, its bullshit.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 10:34:06

Militant views aside

NEITHER planned for this scenario. The choices are always going to be hard. It's damage limitation. I see 3 options...

Option 1... OP has baby she wants and employs tax burdened CSA to chase this reluctant father for 20 years. Father, baby & tax payer lose.

Option 2 ... OP has a termination. Living with the guilt all her life. OP loses.

Option 3 ... OP excepts the father & SHE made a grave error in failing to use contraception. She wants baby (so far he's made one selfish decision. She's now made two selfish decisions). Has baby without the need for his financial input.

Option 3 has the least collateral damage.

Hedonism from father & mother. I want, I get. Screw everyone else.

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 10:47:40

a joint decision is something I consider to be somehting which is CONSIDERED and DISCUSSED by two people.

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 10:50:10

How can you call it a joint decision. It's a mistake/accident/error made by both man and woman...then the woman gets to consider/take time to make her decision, the man's point of view is not accepted at that point. There is an imbalance.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 10:50:45

Errr no the child doesnt lose out if the mother claims child support. The child then has some extra financial security abd they also grow up seeing that men have to provide some support for their children.

And its not selfish to have the baby ffs. The op is facing up to the responsibilty they have both created. Going through pregnancy and childbirth and then raising a child on her own is not a selfish act.

The father walking away is being selfish. He can already opt oit and not be a father in any real sense and now people think its ok to shirk the financial responsibility. but thats ok hey?!! Fgs

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 10:52:27

Hedley, I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Yes, the running of the CSA is funded by tax payers, including you and me! But surely it is better for both parents to be held responsible for the financial support of their child, than to have state support? Obviously in this case the OP is clearly competent and able to support a child by herself, but the money can always be put aside for the future to pay towards university fees or housing when they are independent. Having financial contributions from both parents, based on what they can afford, surely limits the possibility that the child will need state-funded support either now or in future?

As you say, neither parent planned for this situation.

I think that Option 4, which you don't mention, is... both parents accept that they conceived by accident and now have to behave responsibly and put the child first. Both pay towards its upkeep, voluntarily, avoiding the need for any intervention from the CSA. It seems to me that the OP is holding up her end of this admirably. Let's hope the father behaves equally well and decides that he's morally responsible for financially supporting his child without having to be forced to.

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 10:56:57

gottogetup, men have plenty of time to consider the possibility of having a vasectomy if they feel strongly that they don't want to risk the possibility of making babies. Like a termination, it's a physically invasive procedure that can be painful and unpleasant, but which lets the individual have control of their fertility.

It is simply that this happens earlier in the process, while the sperm is still in the chap.

Two people having sex without contraception is quite clearly a joint decision unless it's rape. Both people have every opportunity to consider it and discuss it beforehand.

I'd remind people to read the OP's posts. She was pressured into unprotected sex, but made her views about contraception clear. The man has no excuse at all.

The man is responsible for this pregnancy and should pay support for his child.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 12-Apr-13 11:06:42

The man has no excuse at all.

Absolutely. And yet, the apologists keep on coming...

gottogetup Fri 12-Apr-13 11:11:09 the man has to have a vasectomy (of which a reversal most often is not successful), choosing to NEVER have any children for the whole of his life. And that is his part in the 'joint decision'. hmm

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 11:14:51


Yes, sorry. There is a forth option as you said.

Also have to say your post is the very well put and has raised questions that I had previously dismissed. Other posters seem to be much more militant

I'm still with the attitude that he wants one thing, she wants another and because the tax payer will back her up with her decision, she has the power to make whatever decision that they both found themselves in through duel irresponsibility.

I do hope he has fair access to this child without her colouring its views on him as he will be expected to support the child.

Very sad

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 11:19:43

gottogetup, every abortion carries the slight risk of permanent infertility for the woman. So that's always a serious consideration for a woman too.

Obviously a vasectomy is not for everyone, but certainly men who feel strongly that they never want to risk having or supporting a child should consider it seriously!

A condom is a great second choice though it does come with a slight risk of failure. Effectiveness percentages are easily found through a bit of research on Google. There is plenty of opportunity for everyone to research contraception and take charge of their own fertility.

I'm highly in favour of funding for more effective male contraception, as currently the burden of contraception rests mostly with the woman, and hormonal contraception can carry risks and side effects (OP, sorry for going off topic here!).

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 11:21:53


However I don't agree with the vasectomy post. Could argue the same with hysterectomy which is ridiculous

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 11:27:24

Hedley, absolutely - a hysterectomy is a good option for women to consider if they know they never want to have children. I have friends who have had them (specifically in order to avoid the possibility of conceiving) and have been very happy with the outcome.

If both partners know that they never want children, though, it would make more sense for the man to have a vasectomy as it is a less serious operation and possible to reverse (50% reversal success rate within ten years) which is not the case for a hysterectomy.

Neither choice is for everyone. I certainly would never consider it because I know I want children. But if a man feels very strongly about wanting to avoid children altogether, a vasectomy could be a good option.

AnonToSpareBlushes2 Fri 12-Apr-13 11:28:58

Eh, we can't agree on everything but it is fun to discuss wink

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 11:31:57

Aye, I think we all agree whatever happens we wish them all the best in the world

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Fri 12-Apr-13 11:45:16

Hedley and Growup are two very good examples of men who don't actually think through what happens when people have sex. Porn has clearly told them that bumping uglies is something of a hobby with no strings... hmm If men like these two are what the country is made from it is no wonder CSA struggles to get any money for children they run about creating on a whim. THAT is why it is struggling financially, because men refuse to face up to their responsibility as a parent.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 11:51:24

Er... I've 4 kids all paid for by me (60 hour week) and my partner (part time). I also pay around £1.6k in tax and national insurance each month to help prob up the CSA

Who are you to say such a thing about me?

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 11:52:12

Prob = prop

OhHullitsOnlyMeYoni Fri 12-Apr-13 11:58:33

Your attitude that men should just walk away and run off into the sunset is a bit rich for someone who knows what it involves. You are happy to pay taxes for men who run off after being so reckless and blame it all on the woman for keeping the baby? Really?
I hope you are an avid supporter of women's rights for abortion and weren't one of the men banging on about how this country has gone to the dogs because women can't keep their legs crossed.

justpoppinginsometimes Fri 12-Apr-13 12:02:11

He seems tow ant proof that it is his baby, which can be easily done with testing. However, morally, I believe that if you want financial support he should have rights to the baby. Even if he is a creep. if he is abusive- that is a different thing and you have to figure that out. good luck, not an easy one.

Tortington Fri 12-Apr-13 12:09:43

have a couple of comments
1) if he didn't want a child he should have used protection

2) the fact that you were sick 'in a bucket' on NYE makes me think that you must be middle class, as i usually just barf in the road whilst clinging to a lampost crying

3) You're moving. great. Change your phone number. and don't contact this utter dip shit.

Machli Fri 12-Apr-13 12:46:41

Well I think that makes your attitude even worse then hedley. You know what they need and the sacrifices that children require but advocate the stance that you have expressed on this thread.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 12:57:06

hedley are any of your four children daughters? Are you going to say the same to them if they come to you pregnant and upset saying that the father won't support the child financially or otherwise?

WouldBeHarrietVane Fri 12-Apr-13 13:42:37

Men passed these laws requiring men to contribute financially (male dominated parliament).

Male judges enforce them (largely male dominated judiciary).

Many men, including my DF and DH, believe men must support any child they have, whatever the circumstances.

Arcane, if you are still reading please ignore all the clap trap!

ScrambledSmegs Fri 12-Apr-13 14:27:02

You know, since this man basically browbeat the OP into having unprotected sex with him I really have no sympathy for him. He's a grown man. He can cope. And he is apparently buggering off to Libya anyway, which I presume has no reciprocal arrangement with the CSA.

I'm also really disgusted by the way the thread has been hijacked by posters with an axe to grind. Give it a rest, please. It's not about your agenda. I really hope the OP hasn't been reading this thread since her last post.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 15:39:28

You mean some men & women have different opinions to yours?

"How dare you offer advice other than what the OP wants to hear!" It's a public forum. Grow up

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 15:41:32

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

WouldBeHarrietVane Fri 12-Apr-13 15:41:46

Grow up yourself Hedley. Is this how you would respond to a woman in RL asking the questions in the op of you?

It may be public but that is not code for 'license to be unkind'.

5madthings Fri 12-Apr-13 15:42:27

Oh you can offer up your 'advice' but be prepared to be called on it when you are perpetuating the bullshit idea that men shouldn't have to be responsibility for their own fertility and any children they have.

WouldBeHarrietVane Fri 12-Apr-13 15:45:34

Hedley, if in your world expecting both partners to take financial responsibility for their child is 'militant feminism' we have a lot of militant feminist male judges and male mps grin

Loulybelle Fri 12-Apr-13 16:13:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HedleyLammarr Fri 12-Apr-13 16:32:19

Lol maybe, I work in avaiantion engineering so yeah

Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 17:43:50

militiant feminism is not hoping that the child's father might bear a small percentage of the sacrifices of parenthood.


Gingerandhibiscus Fri 12-Apr-13 17:50:32

I don't think the OP is smiling about it as a pp says, I think she came here at one of the most difficult times in her life, and I know what it's like to realise you're facing parenthood alone, and instead of support, she's been judged and interrogated and basically labelled a scrounger by posters making comments about propping up the CSA!!!!! ffs, women can't win. They really can't win. I got upset reading this thread, realising how judged women still are. If they have an abortion, if they don't. If they work, and seek support from the chlid's father somebody will still come along and say that their taxes contribute to propping up the CSA. Well that's not the OP's fault.

I despair that a desire to have some of the burdens of effort, time and money equalised are perceived to be 'militant' feminism. That just screams put up and shut up to me.

ScrambledSmegs Fri 12-Apr-13 18:03:18

Actually, Hedley, I wasn't just talking to you. Thank you for your post in direct response to mine though. It illustrates precisely what I was talking about.

MoominsYonisAreScary Fri 12-Apr-13 23:19:08

If men took more responsibility for their actions, either by using protection or paying the very small financial contribution towards the children they helped create we wouldnt need the CSA and your tax could go on something else.

Unfortunitely too many men feel they shouldn't have too. What happens if one of your daughters became pregnant and the man walked away from her? Would you still feel the same hedley

perfectstorm Fri 12-Apr-13 23:41:59

There's only one winner here. No wonder this county is in the shit. Everyone is just so selfish. I want, I get, to hell with anyone else

If you think as your posts strongly imply that the derisory amount of money the CSA take from a non-resident parent even covers half the actual expenses, and if you think that money is the biggest aspect of the huge amount of work involved in raising kids, then my God, do I pity your poor wife.

Nobody will force this man to get up at night, to soothe, comfort, entertain, educate or discipline this child. All he will have to do at worst is contribute very much less than half of their upkeep. Considering that isn't "selfish" of the woman, because the money is FOR THE CHILD. HIS CHILD. The fact your posts clearly state that you think your right to that money beats your own child's need for it is frankly troubling, coming from a parent. The child is on the way. He chose to sleep with the OP when she wasn't even that keen, knowing she wasn't on the pill, and he is now outraged she won't abort at his whim? She hasn't even asked him for anything at this point. Yet you think abortion exists for the benefit of men? Okay then. Thanks for clarifying. Just to clarify further: you think feminism is terrible, I think misogyny is. We all have our views. Fortunately I'm not married to one with yours, or I assure you he too would be paying child support.

Nobody is making him actually, actively be a parent to his child. The worst that can happen is he'll be made to contribute a small amount financially - no more nor less. Yet you think that's an outrage and no child should ever have a better life if their own father has to give up a small amount of money each month to see to it?

I know which position I regard as selfish and irresponsible.

perfectstorm Fri 12-Apr-13 23:44:14

I despair that a desire to have some of the burdens of effort, time and money equalised are perceived to be 'militant' feminism. That just screams put up and shut up to me.

I know, bloody outrageous of women to expect fathers to actually care about the children they father, isn't it? Selfish bitches, thinking children should come first. Appalling attitude.

LittleEdie Fri 12-Apr-13 23:55:21

I really hope the OP isn't peeking back at this thread.

themidwife Sat 13-Apr-13 07:26:41

Ughhhhh sad

thistlelicker Wed 24-Apr-13 08:48:23

OP, hope your ok and you and your wee bump are blooming :D

SugarPasteGreyhound Wed 24-Apr-13 21:08:42

Fucking hell, what the actual fuck? angry

Normally I read a thread in relationships and get pissed off because a poster is being treated like shit by her, or his, OH. I can't think of a time when I've clicked on a thread and seen this kind of sanctimonious judgmental bullshit.

OP became pregnant - she didn't ask for a deconstruction of the circumstances surrounding the conception. What she asked for was practical advice. What she got was a sound kicking by a group of people who come across as so fucking precious and self-righteous; dropping
by the relationships board to dispense their pearls of wisdom to those judged and found wanting.

This isn't AIBU. The OP has been the subject of some vile posts in this thread and there has been a level of interest in her sex life that crosses the border from prurient to quite frankly, disturbing.

To the poster who suggested that she was a "sperm thief" - grow the fuck up. Man chooses to shag without barrier contraception, man is willingly depositing sperm in a place designed for fertilisation, therefore man cannot whinge when - shock horror! - fertilisation occurs.

To the poster that said they were horrified because this was a "different world" - get a fucking grip.

Personally I'm horrified by the fact that millions of children are born into poverty, won't have enough to eat, have no access to clean water. I'm horrified at genital mutilation being carried out on young girls, rape being used as a weapon of war. So you'll have to forgive me when I say I find the concept of you being "horrified" at someone's unplanned pregnancy, absolutely ridiculous. If IRC you have four kids, in which case I can only assume that you are one of those absolute gems that feel that pregnancy is 100% a woman's responsibility; evil women with their naughty vaginas enticing you so that they can steal your sperm and ruin your life. Utterly pathetic. Want casual sex without pregnancy being the result? Then wear a bloody condom.

I really hope Arcane is not still reading this thread. Shit like this plays straight into the hands of everyone who criticises MN. There are posters on here who should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

crashmat Thu 25-Apr-13 17:55:46

How anyone can think that the OP is the winner in this situation has obviously not experienced a termination, early pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, lone parenting, night waking, adjusting to being a parent and the sheer hard work of raising a child without support.

I was in the exact same position as OP with DS1's dad who broke my arm in fury whilst demanding an abortion. Guess what? He pays less than 20 quid a week reluctantly through CSA, sees DS1 twice a month at best whilst travelling the world with his band. He hasn't had to deal with 0.01% of the shit I have bringing up lovely DS1. He certainly doesn't deserve support or pity from a collective bunch of self righteous, judgemental and actually very nasty strangers. Humanity and empathy utterly lacking on this thread towards a vulnerable pregnant woman. I hope all you critics sleep really well at night.

LookingForwardToMarch Thu 25-Apr-13 18:28:52

It's sad that your baby will have an older sister and grandparents that they will never see if you cut off contact with their father.

It's not just cutting him out but half of your childs future family and support system.

Even if you think he is a dick and you can go it alone don't you want your kid to know these family members?

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