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If either of your DP's left for an OM/OW when you were a child - please come chat to me(41 Posts)
ExH left to be with his OW 18mths ago. We had been together for 15 yrs ish. He had an affair for over a year (he did the normal thing of leaving and not saying why, coming back and continuing the affair and eventually I asked him to leave again.
It was pretty much the textbook story that you see here all the time. I was devastated. It has taken all my energy over the past couple of years to move past it (ish). My DC's are 4 & 6.
I have never said a bad word about their DF or his GF to them. I have also not told them that they were together when we were (think they are too young). I have been very friendly to their DF over this period of time (it has nearly killed me!) as I didn't want the children to have to deal with any negative feeling between us. He comes to the house one night a week (not routine due to work) to do bed time and they go to him EOW. I invite him to all birthday parties, school events. He has been living with his GF for around 6mths (it was left to my 6 year old to tell me).
They are asking me repeatedly to meet DF's girlfriend. Saying she wants to be my friend! I have said no. I say I am happy they have fun with her and that she is nice to them and I'm always glad to hear about their time with their DF and her but that she is not someone for me to be friends with.
I really really really do not want to meet this woman. I think she is nice to my DC (for now!) but she treated me absolutely appallingly for years (happy to be my ex's GF while I sat at home with our babies clueless). Every bit of emotional strength I have goes on keeping a polite relationship with Ex (obviously this is only because of DC) and trying to minimise the emotional effects on my DC.
What would you have wanted your DM/DF to do in this situation? Is it very damaging for them if I can't do this (I wouldn't want them to have to do it if they ever ended up in this situation).
Also do you think that they should be told at some stage that their DF's relationship started out as an affair and at what age. I would rather they didn't have to know this but am so worried about lying to them when the obvious question is asked (the 6yr old has skirted round the question already). I don't want both their parents to be liars and I'm worried about the impact on them if they find out when much older (some awful reveal).
The answer is FUCK OFF. You are under NO obligation to be 'friends' with this person.
I would tell the DC's that mum is too busy to meet X; or vaguely 'yes that would be nice sometime' and fob them off.
If OW is suggesting this I would firmly ask her and your ExH to STOP as it will NOT be happening.
and personally. I would stop him coming into YOUR house. Its confusing for DC's and painful for you...
You do not have to meet her. You can choose to be evasive 'hmm, maybe one day but I am always so busy. Anyway, let's go...' or direct 'I don't need any more friends' but you do not to have to play friends.
And put a stop to him coming to your house. Could the kids go for tea instead?
Lemonstartree, I have to say thanks. Your response gave me a much needed giggle after a very long day! I've been trying so hard to look at it from DCs point of view and not make life more difficult for them, I feel I've lost all sense of perspective (actually probably lost it years ago due to the situation and am gradually trying to claw it back).
Regarding him coming to the house. I don't spend any time with him - I leave them to it and they go straight up to kids rooms. I know it's important to the kids and I feel it's becoming less frequent as time goes on (as my solicitor said it would). I'm pretty sure that when he has another DC it will become even less. I'm dealing with it as I'd rather this than them doing a mid week sleepover which I think they would find far more disruptive for school (there is a huge difference in parenting styles and there is always a 'transition' on Sunday nights when they come back).
My mum left my dad and moved in with her dp when I was 4
nearly 30 years ago now and they are still together. I am proud of all my parents that getting together was never an issue and everyone was 'friends' or at least on friendly enough terms that a child didn't really notice.
My mum basically just answered my questions about thte situation as they arose, fairly basically in the beginning but in more detail as I got older and wanted more information. I wouldn't say I was unscarred by it all but it's helped me deal with my own break up and I'm proud that my dd chats merrily about her 11 grandparents - my 4 parents, her dad's 4 and my dp's 3... Families are what you make 'em
I can give you two different stories for this. Both me and my DH are from separated parents. You are doing miles better than what my circumstances were!
I was two when my biological father and mum split up. I think he was in my life until I was five, and honestly don't remember much about him. I grew up calling my step dad "daddy", and one of my earliest memories is actually asking him whether I could call him daddy.
My "real dad" remained a mystery to me, which really affected me growing up. I knew that he lived with another woman. I didn't know whether he had more children with her. I wondered why he had left me. I wondered why I was not special enough to stay for.
It took until I was 17 to work out that he was a spineless piece of trash. I saw him again when I was 17 at my granddads funeral (his dad). He sat across the pub at the wake and never once got out of his seat to cross the room to speak to me or my older sister. We were both sitting there having not seen him for 15 years and nothing. He apparently said that he was leaving it for us to go and speak to him.
I was about 18/19 when I got the real story about why he and my mum had separated. Learning then that he'd been sleeping with anything in a skirt, that he was violent to my mum and my sister was really difficult. I certainly wasn't old enough when I was a child to understand what had happened but it would have been nice to know during my younger teenage years that he was a fuckwit rather than being something I had built into my mind as a mythical alternative to the family I had. During my teenage years, when you generally feel confused and rejected anyway, I found it difficult believing one of the two people who should love you unconditionally thought so little of me to wipe me from his life. I wish my mum (or my sister who was old enough to remember a few things) had said something.
My husband's experience is slightly different. His mum and dad separated when he was five or six. His mum remarried and so did his dad. When I met him, I asked him about his family. He didn't really know why his parents had split up, but he wasn't really fussed as to what had happened, feeling it wasn't his business as such, just a fact that they had.
His older brother has really struggled with his parents divorcing and not knowing the full story. When he was in his early twenties (so DH would have been late teens/early 20s as only 18mths difference) he started asking a lot of questions of everybody wanting to know more than what he had been told, things he had heard from behind closed doors. He had always thought that his dad had left, believing he left for another woman and honestly the two boys had carried about a little bitterness that their father had walked out.
It's taken a long time for the story to be pieced together. The short version being that DH's mum got pregnant despite DH's dad saying he didn't want a third child. FIL decided to stay, but after the baby was born, MIL kicked him out saying that she didn't love him anymore. FIL moved out. Both found other people and got married. I have no idea why they never sat down with the kids and said "mum and dad don't love each other anymore" rather than it being shrouded in mystery, allowing rumour and whispering to let the children make a story in their heads. BIL is still really affected by everything and went through a stage of blaming his parents for some choices he made in life. DH is a bit "meh" about it all, a bit bitter that in his eyes, he was sidelined and hated spending alternative weekends and being shoehorned with several new step siblings in both houses. SIL was fine with it all given for all her life her parents were apart, until she was in her late teens and BIL started throwing accusations at her saying she was the reason their parents had split up!
In terms of the two couples, its very odd! FIL and step FIL go fishing together. MIL and step MIL are pleasant enough together. When DH and I got married, they all sat at the top table, they were all nice. FIL and MIL posed for pictures with us as DH's parents. They're not the best of friends and behind each others back, MIL and step MIL will have the odd catty comment! But they manage.
I think in both cases, a little honesty would have been welcomed as to why the parents were separated.
It must be very difficult for you.
My DS is 6, and I haven't even told him about his aunty and uncle getting a divorce 18 month's ago (they are both with new partners and have a new baby each!), because I simply don't know how to explain it to him.
(Luckily when we last saw his uncle with his new GF, my DS didn't notice that it wasn't his aunty because quite a few people were present and they both look like they could be sisters anyway!!)
I do think that honesty is the best policy, and I am sorry that I can't give you any more words of wisdom. I will be following this to see how other people cope with such a delicate situation.
Oh and your ex's girlfriend must be on another planet!
SoHHKB, thanks for your reply. Harder to hear than I expected. It sounds like the fact that your DF was able to be friendly with your DM and StepDF was a really positite thing for you. How did your Dad cope with your Mum leaving for someone else - presumably in the early years it would have been harder for him to be friendly to you DM & DP than for your Mum? I had a very 'Standard' upbringing and my DP's had a mainly good (not perfect marriage). They would be horrified at me considering meeting the ex's GF. They have always taught me to not spend any time or energy on people who have not been kind to me. I have many great friends who I am close to but am the kind of person who does not 'try' with anyone unless I feel they are really worth it . I am very friendly but do not tolerate any 'boderline' behaviour (the later years of my marriage would be the only exception to that!). So the concept of 'pretending' to be friendly with this woman is absolutely alien to me and I'm not sure it's an example I want to set for my DC.
Elfonthetopshelf thanks so much for telling of your experience. I'm sorry that your biological father was so completely and utterly hopeless. I hope your stepDF was able to bring a lot to your life. Interesting to hear that it would have helped to have more honest conversations with your DM about your Dad. I think it's easy as a parent to fall into the trap of trying to shield your DC from unpleasantness. I was incredibly lucky to have a class A DF who was also a very good DH, so at least I have a good role model for next time round (hopefully!).
Your DH's experience is also interesting and proves the point that different siblings will cope very differently in any given situation and in my experience - there is nearly always one who blames the parents. Although your DH's dissatisfaction of being shipped around is a big concern of mine. I know my DC's complain already of not having enough time at home or at their DF's. I know they will find it very tough when a new sibling arrives (they'll be jealous he gets to be with their DF all the time and confused because they know that they wouldn't want to leave me either). Luckily for them, I'm not planning to have any more DC (mainly due to age) so that's one less concern.
This hasn't happened to me, but I work with young people and it's happened to them, as it's happened to several friends of mine over the years.
Apart from some understandable resentments about parents (mainly fathers) putting new families before existing children and failing to provide parental support - and anger about living in abusive homes before their parents called it quits, the No. 1 resentment is about lies being told about why their parents broke up.
If I were you, I'd find an age-appropriate story that is the truth and explains why right now, you don't want to meet their father's partner. You don't have to say anything detrimental about her or your ex, just that you are still hurt by events and cannot be friends right now. Kids really are okay with adults feeling human emotions and once they know the truth, will respect you even more for the way you've handled things so far.
This is so very similar to what happened to my mum when I was little - they had been married for over 15 years, my little sister was two and I was five.
You are doing ALL the right things and should be so proud of yourself. I can't imagine how difficult it must be, but maintaining civil contact with your exH (who has clearly treated you very badly) reflects so well on you - and should pay off in future in terms of your DC's relationship with both you and their DF.
I am still deeply grateful that my mum enabled us to have regular contact with my dad. I never realised at the time that it must have been really hard for her. I'm also grateful now that she didn't let me realise this. She was never friendly with my DF's new partner, but always civil from a distance. I think this is appropriate.
Re telling us what happened, I can't remember how old I was. I think I had figured it out some time before we had the discussion, but it was an uncomfortable discussion and I was glad to have had it when I was old enough to handle it rather than before. Initially, as a very small child, I can remember blaming my mum for the divorce and loss of my father. That must have been very hard for her. I definitely knew the situation by my early teens. Since then it has emerged gradually that it was just the last in a string of affairs he had with various women. Have never discussed it with my dad. Ironically now (20 years later) I suspect he is doing the exactly same thing to the new GF, who became his common-law wife. Sad but not surprising - karma?!
Your kids will understand your choice re the GF, perhaps not now but later - don't feel obliged to give in to their requests to be friendly with the new GF, but equally don't feel you have to explain why. I suspect it's all just too adult for them to cope with at this stage, and would be confusing.
In case it's any comfort, my sister and I (now grown up) both have good relationships with all parties concerned - DM, DF, DF's W, DM's exP, DM's H - yes, we're a complicated but happy lot! Five parents and always feel loved! They were all just extraordinary for putting the work in to make it happen, because these situations are really fraught and emotional. But in particular, I'm thankful for my mum - I realise now how impressive it was and how strong and courageous she was to handle it with such grace! I asked her to walk me down the aisle when I got married some years ago while all three 'dad-figures' looked on with mild envy and suitable respect
My dad left to go and live with his OW when I was 10, he was away a few weeks, then came back for a few weeks. Then left again and was gone a good year or so. Then came back again, stayed back for a year or so, and all seemed like it was better, but then he left again for a different OW, and he stayed gone.
It never occurred to me that my mother should be friends with the first OW, it would have been weird, confusing, and horrible, I think. My siblings and I went to stay at my dad (& OW)'s house a couple of times, and when we got home I got told off for liking her, and treated like a traitor.
When my dad left for the third time (2nd OW), it was a woman my mum vaguely knew, it was not a lasting relationship and my dad split with this woman very quickly.
One thing I see again and again is posters saying "ban him from your house." My mum did this, so my dad simply did not come to see us. He had no money and no transport, so short of taking us to play on the swings for four hours at a time, there wasn't a lot he could do with us. We saw him only sporadically, and there was a period of five months where we didn't see him at all. A few years later, we found out he'd got together with a new partner and had another daughter. I remember thinking "well, he doesn't need me any more, he's got a new daughter now." Pretty devastating when you've been daddy's girl.
I can totally see why a woman wouldn't want the man who has done this to be in her house, I probably wouldn't either. But it just meant more animosity. My dad's attitude was "well your mum won't let me in the house so I can't see you" but my mum's was "well he can take you out somewhere, not my problem." I can see both points of view, my dad was pretty useless and could have made more effort, but my mum was pretty short on suggestions when asked.
Possibly not relevant or helpful, but it does upset me when I see posters saying "don't let him in your house." But I do accept that most visiting parents would have transport & funds available. (My dad was always shockingly bad with money.)
I think you are doing an amazing job of managing a very distressing situation.
My dad left for his OW when I was 10 and my db 7. I knew all about it at the time due to being nosey and listening in to every word my dp's exchanged during an extended period of conflict prior to him leaving. My db was unaware and we all just didn't mention it (until my df and his new dw were featured in a valentine's day article 'how we fell in love' a few years later and he worked out it was when our dp's had still been together) the fall out was much worse for him as a result, I believe, as he felt his idea of his 'perfect' df was suddenly destroyed.
As to being 'friends' with the new woman! No no no! My dm had to work with df and his ow and it must have been utter hell for her, she never said a word against either of them, but being friends? That would have been going too far. Many years later she was supportive to my df's new wife when my df repeated the pattern by leaving wife no.2 for another younger model. Dm and ow never became friends despite working together until my dm retired, but remained distantly civil, a relationship that as both a child and adult I understood and was comfortable with.
To answer your question OP, yes my dad found it very hard to get on with my stepdad to start with. DF went to work in America for 2 years, coming back to visit me every three months as well as having me there for the summer term each year. Great experience for me but I remember feeling quite hurt when I found out he'd arranged to go abroad on purpose to get away from
my stepdad the situation. This still doesn't make a lot of sense to me when afaik he was together with my stepmum by this time...
I suppose that confirms a point made by another poster above, that even now I feel it's not really any of my business - I was just encouraged to accept the situation.
It sounds like you're doing a really great job so far - I think it's more than acceptable to gloss over the issue of meeting your xh's gf until the rawness of the situation has subsided. Chances are, as the OW she's feeling pretty awkward too, although I appreciate you may not have
much any sympathy for her...
My advice (my DPs split when I was about 6) is that you absolutely don't need to be friends. However there will be times that you will have to be in the same room as time goes by, and it's important that you are able to be civil.
My parents and their partners were together at my wedding, family parties, etc - they are most certainly not friends but they are able to exist in a room together without there being any
obvious and palpable ill-feeling and I'm grateful for that.
If pushed I would tell the DCs that daddy found a new girlfriend and so he moved out so he could live with her. True, simple and in a way they'll understand. It also doesn't indicate it was anything to do with them.
My H isn't with OW any more but if he had been, there is absolutely NO WAY I would have wanted to meet someone so contemptible, even less be her friend! Staying civil with your exH is saintly in itself, no one can ask you for more than that.
badinage - "the No. 1 resentment is about lies being told about why their parents broke up. " Such relief to read this. My PIL have questioned the need to tell the DDs why I ejected their Dad. They were 13 and 11 at the time FFS!
My old man left when I was 4 OP in v similar circumstances to your Ex. My mum was far less level headed about it than you were and made no attempt to conceal her contempt for him, even tho he was still my dad.
From what I can see, you doing just fine, being very gracious considering what a twat he has been. Expecting you to be matey with his new woman is, frankly, ludicrous and you are right to stand your ground. Your children might not understand now but they will in time.
As for telling them details etc, just tell them honest answers as and when they ask - honesty and straight forwardness is all I would have wanted as a child.
You do not have to be friends. I think you've done a very sensible thing shielding your children from the worst of the shittiness, but I think there's no harm in explaining to them in an age appropriate way why you can't be friends.
My father had loads of affairs and re-married a couple of times. I never wanted my mum to be friends with any of his girlfriends. I think that's a slightly odd request and part of me wonders if the GF has suggested it to them as she knows it will make you horribly uncomfortable and put you in a difficult position.
All I wanted as a kid OP was for my parents to be civil enough for it not to create unnecessary stress in my life. I think that's good enough for you to.
I do think the idea of sitting them down at some point is unnecessary, but I suspect as they grow older they will start to figure it out for themselves and there's no harm in you confirming certain details as appropriate. Your priority is to help your children grow up as well-adjusted, happy people. Sometimes that will mean shielding them, sometimes it will mean learning from the truth.
My father had an affair - the first I knew about but I gather that it was one of a few since I was 18 months old - when I was 16. I was the eldest of 6 children. My mother chucked him out to go to his mistress and said that my two brothers should go with him (this was several decades ago, so trad ideas of gender!) but my youngest brother was crying and screaming so much in the car my father returned.
The OW then threatened suicide blah blah blah, and actually came to stay with us in the granny flat for 2 weeks. I guess it was at that point that I lost respect for my father, and for my mother too. But mostly for my father, who's always preferred other people's famines to his own. My parents were finally divorced when I was 35, in the same year my husband died quite suddenly. I never remarried -- funny that!
my feelings were that my father was an arse, and that my mother was a martyr and victim, and failed to keep us safe. I know rationally how much she went through, but as a child still (16 a fairly crucial age) I felt insecure as my prime carer was so unable to fight her corner. I know that's unfair rationally, but that's how I felt. She was a SAHM, and that whole experience of an apparently "perfect" family which my father was equally responsible for could just be abandoned and my mother too afraid of the financial consequences to be stringer about chucking him completely, meant that I am so against that SAHM dependency. I always worked. Always. Still do now my DS is independent and travelling the world.
So if you don't want to meet the OW, don't be guilted into it. Just don't -- I wonder where your DC's request is coming from? Their father? Unguarded chat with the OW? She is unlikely to be particularly concerned about the well-being of your DCs as her primary concern in the way you are.
You don't have to fight, but it is silly for anyone to expect you to be friends.
What is she playing at asking to meet you? I think you should have a word with your ex and tell her to stop.
Regarding the dc all you can do is gently tell them no when they ask.
My ex left me for OW when I was pg with DS2. I would have torn her face off rather than befriend her! Luckily she didnt last long and the dc never met her.
I've never told our dc why we split but if they ask questions I always make it clear it was his decision and tell them to ask him about it but they never do. DD1 knows (she isn't his) and for a while she hated him but now they get on ok.
We split up 9 years ago now and he still comes to the house to see the kids. DP did some work for him last year and they get on really well.
It is hard being civil when someone has hurt you so much but the kids really do benefit when their parents can get on.
Anyone thought that tthe ow might just be being civil too by saying she'd be friends with mummy? I don't suppose she wants to be best pals either but 'friends' is language young children understand and may just be her way of glossing over the difficult questions the children put to her...
Just a suggestion, before I get flamed for being an ow sympathiser!
My exdh now lives with the OW, well the woman he had at least an EA with and who was certainly very instrumental in our split anyway. I think they probably were having an affair tbh but I'll never know the whole truth and am way past caring anyway! Some of you may remember my thread about it at the time, from 2 years ago called something like 'Dh and his best friends gf' or words to that effect. Would be mildly interesting to read it but can't be arsed to go to the effort of searching!
I am friendly with her, before they got together she was with our friend So I knew her anyway. Now occasionally we hang out together, I'll go to dinner with them or they'll come to me. It's nice for the dcs. Plus we have a lot of mutual friends. Actually we're all going to Glastonbury together this year, and will split care of the dcs so we each get to have some time off. Works for us anyway!
My dcs go to them EOW and one night in the week. OW and I get on fine but we'll never be best of friends. Tbh I find her a bit dull! But she's a nice person and she's nice to my dcs so that's the most important thing to me.
I think our situation is unusual and you certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for hating the idea. I don't have a new proper partner but have totally moved on from exdh emotionally which is what allows me to be so laid back about it all.
Thank you so much to all who had replied. Its completely different hearing from people whove been through this experience themselves, although I now realize that every situation/child is different and hence should be treated differently. Thanks also for the independent opinion of those who have not been living my life for the past few years!
Just to clarify, as its got slightly lost as the thread has gone on. I am in NO way considering being friends with this lady. My question is regarding the fact that I dont even want to meet her. I have no concerns that we will bump into each other (if we did and I didnt have the children with me, I would give ex a frosty hello and walk away). Thank God for living in a city. The only way I would have to meet her is if she came to one of the childrens school events or we arranged a meet.
I have made things extremely easy for EXDH as I thought this was best for the children. I havent told anyone in our community why he left (only my family and closest friend) to make it less awkward for him to be a part of the childrens lives (he makes it awkward anyway as he has nothing in common with the other parents). I havent said anything bad about him to any of the childrens friends parents to try to enable him to be able to pick the kids up from playdates/parties etc. If he wanted to bring his GF to school events any time soon, all my fake friendliness would disappear. I just couldnt extend it to her too.
Also, my guess is that my DC have put my EXs GF in a tricky position and said things like, would you like to meet my Mummy/be friends with my Mummy and that her and Ex have just said yes because they dont want to have any difficult conversations.
KeepCoolCalmAndCollected I feel so bad when other friends of mine have to explain the situation to their children its a bit like we are the cause of even more children loosing their innocence on this matter. We told the children together that we lost the special married love and just had the friendship love (think they are gradually figuring out that was a fib) but it worked well and the time and I overheard my DD at 5 explaining it that way to her friend. I also have to explain repeatedly that its very rare to happen and most people keep the married love forever as Im terrified they will be conditioned to think its a temporary thing. Luckily I have lots of great examples to show them.
Badinage That is extremely useful information. I had a feeling that it would be the lies or some dramatic reveal later in life that would cause the most resentment.
AnonToSpareBlushes2 Thanks for your opinion and its really comforting to know that you and your sister have good relationships with all concerned. How lovely of you to ask your Mum to walk you down the aisle. She must be a very special lady. How do you feel about your DF (apart from loving him because he is your DF)? When do you think is an appropriate age to answer my DCs questions a bit more honestly. My DD did say one day, but he moved out before he was with GF and there was a question mark in her eyes but I could see that she was terrified of the answer and was not ready to hear it so I agreed with her (first major lie!) and changed the subject. I also knew there was no way her brother was ready for that conversation and I felt it wasnt fair to give her the burden of info and expect her to keep it from him.
MrsPennyapple Youve confirmed my suspicions that it doesnt matter how a DP treats the other when you are little (with limits), you still want your DM/DF in your life.
Haystack Thats so interesting about your DBs reaction finding out when he was older and its very much what I suspected. What age was her? What age range do you think would be sensible? I cant believe that your DM managed to stay working in the same place all her life. I actually feel teary at the thoughts of that. It sounds like a life sentence to me.
SoHHKB Its funny how your Dad moving away when he was already with your StepDM doesnt make sense to you. It makes perfect sense to me. If there was anyway I could do this without harming my children (I think taking away from their DF would be wrong) I would run as far as I could. Even if I was with someone else, it wouldnt lessen the hurt and shock that two people could do something so hurtful to another human being over such a long period of time. And I dont think that my EXDH has put his DC first in anyway over the past 4 years which I cant understand. Its alien to me.
MushroomSoup I know there will be times in the future where she will be at events with the children and Ill have to deal with it. I am so far away from being able to cope with that. I also know that there is no way that my family will attend anything that she is at EVER so I feel that EXDH has robbed the children of time with my family as well (they live far away and we live near his family). I guess all that will work itself out in time.
OptionalExtras Hope you are doing better these days onwards and upwards
Simontowers1 Really helpful again to know that honesty is what you would have wanted/needed.
ALittleStranger Good response and I agree with you but sometimes its tricky to know when to shield and when to share.
UptheChimney You sound like you had a particular traumatic experience. I can really understand your feelings towards your parents and actually your view of your Mum is key for me. The main reason I had the strength to tell my EX to leave after his 2nd & 3rd chances is that I never wanted my DC to think that the way he was treating me and them was appropriate either to accept from someone to treat someone else like that. When I first met my EX at 20 he was really close to his Mum and treated her so well. Many years later I gradually had the feeling that it was to make up for the way she was treated by his DF. In his mid 30s when his life got tough he started treating his DM with disdain and it became clear that he had no respect for her for staying with his DF.
Flurp I would be absolutely fine with meeting any other GF he had. I dont want him back. Its just this one as you said! I think the kids are probably putting them in an awkward spot asking for us to meet. I have asked him to chat to them and without saying why just make it clear that its not going to happen. I dont meet any of his other friends these days (or he mine) so he should be able to explain it like that.
You sound great OP and your dc are lucky to have you.
I worry that my dc will have a skewed view if relationships as there are no long term marriages in our family (other than my mum and step dad who have been together 20 years but obviously theirs is a second marriage. I have never married myself because I have seen too many bitter divorces and I think it has given me commitment issues.
I just hope they all grow up to treat people with respect and not cheat or lie.
Fascinating to read about people's families!!! We are going out now so I can't read them properly and will come back later.
Suffice to say I do NOT think the op has to be friends with this woman at all and in time perhaps the children will deserve to hear that she and their father started the relationship is less than honest circumstances.
Also op I hope you don't mind me saying, but you do sound very saintly and I would like to hear a bit more anger from you. I get that you are doing an amazing job of being a mum but seriously, fuck them, when the kids aren't around to hear it and all. You are allowed to be cross.
Just a quick point, OP I think you sound very smart and insightful when you say the kids might be engineering some of this. My sister left for an OM and even though it was dealt with very maturely and compassionately on all sides, the children (7 and 4) spent loads of time trying to get OM and ExH to 'meet up' or telling each of them how much they had in common with the other. it was heartbreaking really because they could sense there was a deep sadness or resentment there and they just wanted to 'make it better'. In children's thinking, if the two men could just be friends, everyone could hang out, their world would be brighter and happier and the sadness/confusion would disappear.
another one here thinking you are doing everything right.
my dad left when I was four and my brother was six. my mum never ever bitched about my dad to us although god knows how because he really treated her badly. although I did witness some pretty horrific public rows.
I later really respected that my mum otherwise kept a lid on her feelings towards my dad - even when I was at university age and later she would still be very objective about him and never stick the knife in despite how acrimonious it always was between them.
I wouldn't have cared less about my mum and the OW being friends - in fact thinking about it it would have scared me probably. But it's probably different for your kids as you are managing to stay extremely calm and level headed. I didn't read all the other responses but someone said just breezily brush off the DCs asking you to be friends and that's probably the best thing. I can't imagine at that age that they would give it that much thought unless someone kept bringing it up?
I think the last part of your post is much harder - I just figured it out myself with my dad because it was blatant - he even took us to OW's house while he was still with my mum. Just awful. If they really persist in asking maybe say that their dad and the OW were friends and when they are older they will work it anyway.
Isn't it more a question of not lying when the children ask questions? I think that's what pisses children off, even if when older they can see why lies were more diplomatic, or sometimes face-saving. Don't forget they'll be asking the dad and OW too. If they say something different, that will need an explanation because even young children can work out that someone's lying in that event. Perhaps you can tell your ex that if you get asked questions you will tell the truth and advise him and his gf to do the same? I think it's very sad to read about some of the mums being written about here having to endure false stories and beliefs all to protect a man who started off the lying in the first place. I can't see how lies protect children at all.
I won't lie to my dc but I do evade questions.
I have told my ex that I won't ever tell them outright what he did but when the question arises I will be sending them to his door and then he will have to be accountable.
I will also never let them feel like he left them. He left me but he is still their dad and he has been a
fairly good one so far and they both worship him.
I think DS1 knows deep down but he doesn't want to hear it said, which is fine. He will face it when he's ready.
to all for posting here, especially OP, as it comes at a time when I've been mulling over very similar worries. (We are possibly days away from telling DDs that we are separating, under similar circumstances). OP, you sound like you are doing a brilliant job.
I've not been in this position as either parent or child, but I've done an awful lot of reading about effects on children, so have formed a few opinions along the way
About "being friendly" with OW
I agree with others... No Way. Here's why.
1. You are clearly not emotionally ready for this in anyway (completely understandable), so any friendliness could well be forced to such a degree that the kids may pick up on the awkwardness, and actually it would be worse for them, not better. I aim to work up towards indifference/civility by the time it is needed, i.e. 18th birthdays/weddings/graduations. I think that's an achievable target.
2. If the kids are driving this, it's important that you demonstrate where the boundaries are. From a child's point of view, you can see that it would be preferable if all of the significant adults get on wonderfully, then the kids could potentially have mum and dad with them at the same time, with the additional presence of OW/new partners being tolerated but irrelevant. I've read that kids are prone to "reconciliation fantasies", and that it's best not to act in such a way to fuel those fantasies.
3. It's also possible that this is being driven by ExH and/or OW. This is part of the script where they want everyone to be good friends, so that they can convince themselves and others around them that they did the "right thing", that the old marriage was dead in the water anyway, and that they have in fact acted in everyone's best interests. My view? Frankly, they can fuck off with their folie-a-deux, and learn that their actions have consequences, that they acted only in their own best interests and have to deal with the knowledge that they are truly selfish.
4. I am with you 100% when you say that you would like your children to learn that you don't have to be friends with everyone. My oldest DD is at an age where playground friendships are notoriously fickle, and I have been trying really hard to get her to back off from people who are being unpleasant to her, and focus energies on those with whom she can develop genuine friendships. I'd like to set a good example to her.
About how much of the truth to tell them
I'm really struggling with this one too. The advice in the books is to not apportion blame, yet to tell the truth. I cannot for the life of me work out how to do this when the two requirements are diametrically opposed. I'd welcome more views on this from people who have been there, as parents, children, relatives, friends, teachers, etc.
H is suggesting the explanation be that we "no longer have the same goals in life". While that much is true (I want a happy family life; he wants his ego stroked by OW and lots of lie-ins and no responsibility), it really does miss the point, surely? DD1 will say "what goals"? and try to steer us together again. Also, OP, I don't know where your H went after he left, but mine is planning to move straight in with OW, and is talking about contact via Skype. I'm not quite sure how long he thinks he can successfully brush OW under the carpet? Will she take a vow of silence and wear an invisibility cloak whilst H is Skyping? I think not...
I'm sick to death of half-truths and covering up for him, and feel like I've been living a lie since finding out about his affair. Not telling the whole truth really hasn't sat comfortably with me, even though I have done it for the best reasons (to protect DDs, and also elderly relatives). I would carry on covering up like a shot if I thought it was in the DDs' best interests, but from what I've read from others upthread, I don't think it is.
I will watch this thread with interest.
My dad left when I was 7 and to begin with I saw him alone at my Granny's house. I think it was after 6 months that I saw him with the OW and she was very pleasant to me. Being a 7 year old I really had no idea what the reality of the whole thing was although I knew my mum was very unhappy but she tried not to colour my views. It never came up that they would meet when I was a small child although as I and my siblings grew up they did meet through graduations, weddings etc. People were polite.
Frankly, I would only meet her if you have to and you don't have to. It's going to be a long time before weddings and graduations and she might not be around when they happen.
I am fairly sure this is being driven by your dcs. I can't imagine this woman is keen to meet you - I would imagine she's terrified of the idea. If you want to put a stop to it, I would have a word with your ex, and make sure he and she are both "on message" about the fact that, as you rightly say, you don't always have to be friends with everyone, and that they are communicating that very very clearly to your children. It sounds as if you've done an astounding job in keeping the channels of communication open, so make the most of that and tell him what he needs to be telling them - it doesn't sound as if he can be relied upon to make sensible decisions without a bit of prompting.
I agree with the posters who said that weddings etc are all a long way away. However (and I am in no way suggesting that you and OW should be friends), have you thought about the not completely unlikely possibility that your paths may cross and how you will feel if you aren't prepared for that? What if your ex had an accident, and she was left looking after the children until you could collect them? Or if one of the children had an accident and he took them to hospital leaving her with the other? Wouldn't it be better if the first time you meet her, you're prepared for it?
I speak from experience - I refused to meet the OW (I did actually vaguely know her as she worked with my ex - I didn't know her well, but I'd met her at various work social events I'd been to and she'd come to my ex's 40th just before he walked out...) and then I found myself face to face with her unexpectedly (I was going away for the weekend, he had been away with work and his return flight was delayed - I had to go to catch my flight and had no option but to take the children there and leave them with her). It was horrible, and I wished after that that the first time I had seen her had been on my terms, when I had been prepared (and looking lovely!).
That's very different to being friends with her. That, of course, is never going to happen!
As far as the truth/lies go - I take the line that I will answer questions truthfully but won't volunteer information. I've never once said anything bad about either of them, but as the children grow older, they are getting more aware of how relationships work, and they are starting to work it out. I don't want to hide anything from them - dd (9) asked me the other day if Daddy had kissed OW while he was married to me, and I said that he had done. She asked me how that made me felt, and I said it made me cross and sad when I found out. But I wouldn't have said that if she hadn't asked. I think what is more damaging is constantly criticising the other parent, or making the children feel awkward about having a positive and loving relationship with them - and it sounds from everything you have said like you are doing an absolutely amazing job on that score!!
JaceyBee You are a better woman than me, due to being able to put it all behind you and spend time with your Ex and his DP. I wish you lots of happiness.
Something2say Dont worry, Im not saintly at all. Its taken me years to realize what kind of man my Ex has grown into. Ive been through all the emotions under the sun. Its taken me almost the whole 18mths to get over him. Im finally in a place were I dont want him any more. I can be momentarily furious that the lovely young man I fell in love with 15 years ago turned into everything he once despised. Mainly, I dont look back. Its like that man is dead and I dont like the one who is here now. Hes not attractive to me. He is now the man who has hurt my DC and I suspect he will disappoint them periodically throughout their life (I hope not). I sometimes get furious when the children are upset and occasionally cross with myself that I chose him as their DF but he acted a different part very well for 10 years, so I console myself that I couldnt have known. My biggest regret is that the DC will never know what its like to have an amazing DF like I do. Ill have to do my best for both of us.
Tessa6 I think youve hit the nail on the head and I can really see the DCs point of view on that but sadly its not going to happen.
Cooper44 lovey to hear how much you appreciated your Mums efforts
Leavenheath Good point, I think I will have to have that discussion with ex
Flurp I also dont want the children to feel like he left them but to be brutally honest I think an element of that is unavoidable. He did leave them as well as me. Regardless of whether EX tries to be a good DF (he does by his own standards), he was still only willing to do it after his personal entitlement to happiness was met. Or to look at it another way, his desire to be with his GF was more important than his desire to be with his DC more than EOW and a couple of weeks a year. In my view that isnt being a good father, its being a part time one I know thats completely unfair and lots of people end up in that position and its completely out of their control.
MayYouBloomAndGrow You seem to have gone through a very similar thought process to me and to have a similar outlook. Im also going throught the same playground/friendship issue with my DD whos answer to anyone being nasty to her is maybe if I do everything she wants, shell remember we used to be friends ahhhhhh! I hope you are doing ok. Feel free to PM me if you need to blow off steam/have a chat.
Ginslinger Thank you. I think I should be able to manage it by the graduation/wedding stage (well Ill have to!)
TheBiskyBat You know my ex then! it doesnt sound as if he can be relied upon to make sensible decisions without a bit of prompting I hadnt even considered the possibility that I might come across her in an unusual circumstance like that (please no!). How long is it since you and Ex separated. You seem to be doing brilliantly. I think you gave the correct answer when your DD asked about kissing. In my experience with children (not extensive) it can take them time to be ready to deal with/process things and that its sometimes better to do it in bite size chunks which is what Ive been hoping for. Your DD obviously knows intuitively and is putting the pieces together. I hope you are the DCs are doing well. I wont criticize EXDH but I just wish that I could tell them all about the lovely man that I chose to be her DF and how happy we were. But he doesnt exist any more which is a pity! I do let her know about his positives (he is clever and good at golf and tennis .seriously, I must be able to do better than that).
Hi there OP, and thanks for your reply. I do hope you are ok and that thinking things through is helpful for you.
You did ask me a couple of additional questions, which I'll answer now. The second one (which I'll answer first) was: when do you think is an appropriate age to answer a DC's questions more honestly? Well, I think it's when they basically ask the awkward questions that show that they know what's going on! There should be no need to lie. I think it's both sweet and honest to simply say 'mummy and daddy just stopped feeling the special kind of married love' at this stage, but when it gets to 'was daddy kissing OW while he was married to you?' then perhaps they've twigged and it's ok to answer in an honest but measured way... I reckon kids ask questions when they're ready! But I'm not a mum yet so perhaps I'm wrong! For me as a DC it happened gradually and organically.
Your other question to me was - how do I feel about my DF? Well, I love him - he's my dad and he's been there for me in some important ways. At the same time I am very well aware of his flaws and deeply unimpressed with him as a partner. I'm quite wary of men like my DF, much as I like him as a dad he is clearly a rubbish cheating lying partner. I actually think my DM should have left him before he left her.
In an ironic twist of fate I have just found out this morning (from my SM) that my DF has been doing the dirty on her! I feel sorry for her, but part of me also thinks, hm, what goes around comes around. Also - what is she thinking, not dumping him immediately?!!!!! Women with a bit of self-respect set a wonderful example for children.
what is she thinking, not dumping him immediately?!!!!! Women with a bit of self-respect set a wonderful example for children
That's an interesting comment, Anon I've always felt rather guilty at resenting my mother's helplessness in the situation my father put us in. My youngest sibling was only 7 at the time (6 of us in 9 years, yikes!!), and my mother was invested in the happy nuclear family.
My father wanted to get away from it. we were messy & noisy & expensive. So I never really believe in the "He didn't stop loving you children." He patently wanted to get away from us, but then I was older than most of the other posters who've posted.
I know how difficult it was for single mothers in the 1970s (I am a fair bit older than most of you I guess!) and how arsey my father would have been about money.
But I still feel
I wish I could grow up & get over it betrayed and let down by my mother. And very badly prepared for life as an adult woman. But at least I feel something -- I don't feel terribly much for my father except for broadly familial love, and then indifference. He's reaped what he sowed with his children.
Haha, thanks OP but I'm not a better woman than anyone, believe me! Just really, really over him. That's all. But I totally understand your decision not to want to play happy families with yours. Contrary to what gets said on here sometimes, every marriage break up/affair is different and it may well not work for everyone.
My parents split when I was 12 and db 10. Dad left my DM for his secretary, classic story of the seventies I think!
I am so in awe of my DM and the way she handled it as she shielded us from lots of pain but never said anything bad about df, to us anyway.
She did not have anything to do with df and ow, who got married and stayed together, until my df was dying when I was 20. Wewere all with him in his last few days and ow actually rang my mum and asked her to come over and sit with us all. I think my df must have wanted her there but have never asked her. Anyway she came and spent some time sitting with him and cared for ow too.
I think you can simply deflect their requests that you befriend her for now, certainly until they are older and understand more. The requests are probably from them as they are wanting everyone to get on.
You are doing a good job in helping them to deal with your split and minimising the impact on them. Try to answers their questions as honestly as their age allows. As they get older I think they will work it all out for themselves anyway, db and I certainly did.
I have nothing really to add to this but wanted to tell our family story too.
My father was a major philanderer. We are three children. They split when I was seven. I am the middle. We found out that he had an affair for four years! Four years!! Leaving my mother to cope with three unders fives, two dogs, a cat, a bird and a huge thatched roofed cottage with the builders in.
The one she left him over would be there when we went to stay. We were made to feel guilty for wanting to love him. I remember my mum asking for details about her and I said she had sort of fat lips. For a while my mother kissed me goodnight with joke fat lips as a way to make fun of her. It was confusing.
Kahlua - your DM's story has really touched me, esp the "cared for ow too" part. She must be an absolute saint, and I'm not surprised you are in awe of her. Do you or your mum have anything to do with OW now?
No nothing at all.
She must have loved my dad in her own way, but she moved in with someone else only a week after my dad's funeral.
She also threw away all his belongings, clothes etc, before my db and I could get something to remember him by.
We decided not to have any more contact after that, but she decided the same as never contacted us again either.
Db and I were ok though as we have our mum and she eventually married our beloved step father.
Temp, you've had lots of great advice on this thread. I have been there myself (ex-h started an affair with someone he met on the Internet while I was pregnant, and left when DS was 8 months old. EX and OW are now married with a baby), and the one thing I would say is that, while you are doing absolutely the right thing in your kids first, you need to be kind to yourself too.
When ex first left (before I knew about OW), I used to let him come round to bath DS etc, but that stopped when I found out. He still saw DS regularly (couple of times a week), because I firmly believe that no matter what he has done, DS still deserves a good relationship with his dad, but not in my home. I needed to start reclaiming my life for myself, rather than letting things be dictated by the situation, and part of that was reclaiming my home for me. Didn't help that the ex used to still strut around as if he lived there whenever he came round! I am not suggesting being hostile, but just being polite but neutral/detached is good enough in my book. It's too much to expect you to be friendly with someone who has, bottom line, treated you very very badly and abused your trust.
As for meeting OW, happened to me by accident as I bumped into her out with my DS when his dad had him for the day (that's how I found out about the affair), but have never seen her since and am happy with that. I talk positively about them to DS, as I don't ever want him to feel uncomfortable or split between us, but that's as far as I can go. And if DS asks why daddy doesn't live with us, I am honest but matter-of-fact "daddy decided he wanted to live with OW, but he still loves you very much", and leave it at that. Hopefully it won't then come as a total shock when he is older and works out what happened, but at the same time it's not anything derogatory about his dad. (although I did find it hard to hide the look of total horror on my face when DS asked me to go round with him to meet ex's new baby!)
Not sure if that helps at all, but hope it does! For what it's worth, it sounds as though you are doing an amazing job, and your DCs are very lucky to have such a fantastic mum!
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