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Rationalisation help required please

(42 Posts)
BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 06:33:35

Long, sorry.

DH was speaking to his brother on the phone last night. BIL and his GF are considering buying a house, and for financial reasons are thinking about getting it solely in his name. I said that, although it's exactly what we did ourselves, I wouldn't advise it, and that his GF should think very carefully before putting herself in that position.

DH wanted me to clarify, I explained that, although I paid into that mortgage for years, it isn't mine in any way, and if we had split up before getting married (or even probably after) I would be homeless and penniless. He then refused to believe that I paid anything towards the mortgage (he kept saying "I didn't make you pay rent"). He said that I was lying a number of times, still on the phone to his brother. I looked up my old bank statements online, and proved to him that I did indeed make monthly payments, entitled 'mortgage payment', every month between buying and moving out of that house. The amount was approximately half the mortgage plus half of all bills. (He didn't want a joint account for some reason, we do have one now (now I'm the earner and he's a SAHD).

I'm cross now for a number of reasons. He clearly has it in his head that he provided for me over that long period of time, which isn't true. He called me a liar, numerous times, in front of his brother. He has apologised, and doesn't see why I'm still annoyed.

This got me thinking about how he has been WRT money. When we first had kids, I was a SAHM. I worked part time (evenings), studied, and set up a business, but still felt very pressured (by him) to find more work.
He was then made redundant, I got FT work, and he has been a SAHD since. (I was SAHM for 2 years, he has been SAHD for 18months so far). I haven't pressured him into work at all, even though we live somewhere (abroad) where child care is very affordable. I remember how it made me feel, and I don't want to do that to him.

But, it's all a bit... difficult. I need to rationalise this a bit.

Timetoask Sun 24-Mar-13 06:38:05

I think it's time to put pressure on him to find work then. Just like he did to you.
I am so glad that you could prove your mortgage repayments! People have very short memories.
I think you are right to advice your bil's girlfriend. She will be in a very insecure position financially.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 06:44:47

Thanks, but I really don't want to pressurise him.

DaffodilAdams Sun 24-Mar-13 07:10:45

Lots of red flags here for me and I think it more than just short memory. He seems to have rewritten your history together, certainly your financial one. Plus the fact he doesn't see why you would be annoyed. Did he apologise whilst still on the phone to his brother or ring him back up and put the record straight? Calling you a liar, repeatedly, especially in front of someone else isn't on. There is a whopping amount of arrogance there.

And the pressuring you into getting a job is a bit bullying. Especially as you definitely doing your but, so to speak.

Does he often ignore what you say or dismiss your feelings? Does he pull his weight generally around the house now he is a SAHD? I'm just trying to get a picture of your overall relationship to gauge whether this is a one off or actually part of fairly regular disrespect for you.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:16:23

I don't think he's generally dismissive, and he more than pulls his weight now. He does all of the cooking, most day-to-day cleaning (we have a cleaner once a week) and all of the school related stuff. I just work really, and obviously share child care after school and at the weekends. (1 child is still a toddler).

He claims to have apologised when on the phone, but really he just accepted that he was wrong. He has apologised now, but after I told him to.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 07:18:39

You are entitled to have a conversation about him returning to work. It's not 'pressure' it's just sensibly going through the options. Do it in the context of a family budget/finance discussion, perhaps, and your aims for the future such as holidays, bigger houses, new car or whatever ambitions you have as a couple.

Hear what you're saying that you'd have felt put out if he'd asked you to return to work when you were a SAHM. But is there any element here that you are worried/nervous about his reaction if you even broach the subject? If he's the type that gets nasty, that wouldn't be good.

The other issue ... denying that you paid into the mortgage... sounds really peculiar. Could be anything going on there from misplaced pride to poor memory to a more sinister wish to downplay your past contribution. As he was on the phone to his brother at the time maybe the problem was that he lied in the past and told his brother he paid for everything 100%.... some macho 'male provider' bullshit thing?

DaffodilAdams Sun 24-Mar-13 07:24:00

OK so he is quite happy to pull his weight generally then. It is still very strange that he revised, in his head a major part of your financial history. Did he say why he thought he'd paid for everything? Or why he wanted you to work more?

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:25:27

We don't really need him to work. I don't earn loads but enough and we live in an affordable country. He is great at the role of SAHD, so that's not really an issue, apart from the contrast between that and how I felt in the same position.

He's not a nasty type at all, I don't think it's sinister, but still troubling. I think it's a memory thing - he genuinely believed that he had 'provided' for me for years. It worries me that he has that false memory of something I see as quite important.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:28:04

Haven't broached the issue of me feeling pressured to work FT when I was SAHM. It could entirely that be my perception of things and his differ. I'm sure he will say that he didn't pressure me at all. However, I can remember many times feeling like that - one in particular when I had to walk from the table in tears when he was making me feel shit for not working - in front of his parents. Maybe that's the link - his family? Perhaps he wants them to think I'm not pulling my weight?

ArtVandelay Sun 24-Mar-13 07:32:12

Have you shown him the bank statements in black and white? I wouldn't worry about his feelings to much tbh go hard on this issue and make him remember and make him eat humble pie. This is not what colour
was the wallpaper in your first flat. This is fundamental. I don't believe for one minute he has a memory issue.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:37:12

Yes, I showed him. He believes me now. hmm

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 07:41:49

" I had to walk from the table in tears when he was making me feel shit for not working - in front of his parents. Maybe that's the link - his family?"

No. The 'link' is that this man is piece of work and has you doubting yourself. He's clearly quite happy to make you feel bad so that he looks good in front of others. 'Many times'. He's therefore a bully and the incident with the BIL has reminded you just how low he brought you in the past. Nothing to do with your perception and his.... He's controlling you.

Now he's sponging off you and giving you no credit for paying towards the bills in the past, but has you frightened to say anything. Frankly, how you can describe someone like that as 'not a nasty type' is beyond me.

DaffodilAdams Sun 24-Mar-13 07:42:33

Well the fact you feel his perspective would differ about the pressuring, despite the incident you mention is not good. I think you may be on to something with the family connection. I just wonder how much else he is rewriting with them whilst you are not around.

I do think there is a fundamental issue here, of him perhaps not valuing your contribution except in the terms he gets to define.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:43:51

Seriously, he isn't nasty usually at all. He's very easy going and generally happy / calm. This is a bit weird though.

And yes, the making me cry bit was nasty. But rare.

DaffodilAdams Sun 24-Mar-13 07:44:29

Yes I agree with Cogito he is trying to control you.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:46:14

Hmmm, but but but... he genuinely is otherwise lovely. What's going on then? Why?

DaffodilAdams Sun 24-Mar-13 07:48:35

He probably doesn't need to be nasty all the time as he is getting what he wants.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 07:50:18

Making you cry was nasty enough to alter your behaviour going forward. That's all a bully has to do. ... it's like dog training... if the dog gets a nip round the neck for pulling on the choke-chain it learns not to pull. You've learned to keep your mouth shut...

However, I can remember many times feeling like that .... means it wasn't rare.

Controlling people can be very charming and lovely when they're getting their own way. So as long as you're compliant and not challenging him I'm sure he's fine. Point out you paid the mortgage when he's trying to make out to his brother that he's the sole provider.... and you get an earful.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:50:38

But why think I had paid nothing? What for?

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 07:52:47

So that he's the 'Big I Am' in front of his brother. He made you cry, berating you for not working in front of his parents. Face-saving. 'See I am the man in this house ...' Bully.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 07:53:44

He & his family wouldn't be from a traditionally misogynistic culture would they?

DaffodilAdams Sun 24-Mar-13 07:54:09

Completely agree with Cogito. He doesn't need to be nasty all the time, only when you object to his behaviour or what he is saying.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 07:56:44

Yes, the culture is traditionally misogynistic Cogito. White English.

Controlling men are not nasty all the time; if they were no woman would ever want to be with them. Controlling behaviours like he is showing you is insidious in its onset and creeps up on you over time. This is really about power and control. You have gone onto modify your own behaviours over time.

I have read what you have said about him as a SAHD.

How do you feel about him as a husband?.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 07:59:32

It's a fair question.... smile I thought you were going to say Greek or Italian or something. Wouldn't be the first man from that kind of background to be 'modern' at home but act like a martinet in front of the family.

I digress. Your solution to this is to speak up, challenge and confront. Same as all bullies. Don't worry about making him feel bad because it clearly didn't bother him in the past. Turn the tables with a clear conscience.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 08:01:54

Absolutely a fair question, and I mean my response. Yes, they are quite misogynistic as a family. Far more than I like, anyhow. Seems quite standard for white British families!

How do I feel about him as a husband? I love him. I miss him when I work away. Nothing exciting, all very stable.

He thinks you;re still a second class ciitzen even though you are bringing in far more to this whole relationship than he is. He just likes being the "Big Man".

They do not have to hit yuo to abuse you. Financial abuse is also prevalant.

Not really surprised to read either that his brother now wants to do the same re buying a property (for financial reasons, my arse; no its because he wants it all to himself so that in the event of separation she cannot claim any share) as you guys did; this is likely what their parents did as well. Just as well for her that you were around to give her some straight talking.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 08:03:17

So, speak up... just go through it will him again, but properly this time? Maybe later when the kids are in bed.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 08:04:09

Oh no, their parents were very much married before any living together happened. Very proper.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 08:07:35

Go through it properly and refuse to be corrected. Issue one.... if he ever dares belittle your contribution in front of his brother or the rest of his family, there will be hell to pay. Issue two.... time he got a job.

Areyoumadorisitme Sun 24-Mar-13 08:10:23

Perhaps he's not the controlling awful person but it does sound like there are some issues.

Clearly not on that he is mistaken and he does need reminding, alao that this is actually quite important to you. I would also make sure he understands you feeling pressured about full time work when sahm.

I do wonder whether, instead of seeing it as you contributed nothing, he is trying to give the outside impression that he has provided for his family, particularly now as he is not earning? If it is a traditional family set up, it may seem very important for him to justify that he 'deserves' not I work for a bit because he 'provided' (or seems to think he did) for so long. No excuse but perhaps a bit of an explanation?

Kat101 Sun 24-Mar-13 08:25:34

Are you named on your property deeds now? If not, please see a good financial advisor and get this corrected.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 08:31:33

As I understand it the house was bought around the time they married. Who is named on the deeds is less important, therefore. It's classed as a 'marital asset' and assumed ownership is 50/50.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 08:34:23

It was bought about 4 years before we married. Not on deeds now, no, as is his mortgage. Am on deeds on other house (we rent out the first).

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 08:34:37

Or rather, he does. hmm

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 08:51:55

Doesn't matter, all the properties are classed as marital assets. However, the mortgage debt is actually his if it's in his sole name. Probably the best position to be in actually.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 08:52:43

So are you saying he's regarding the rental income from the other house as his earnings?

I think he may feel insecure about being a sahd- it is subconsciously important for a lot of men to be the provider, and therefor he has rewritten history in his head to say he has indeed been an excellent provider. If he is otherwise a good bloke it is probably all subconscious and the fact that he is like it with his family suggests he was brought up to believe man= financial provider. I don't think it is neccessarily about power and control.

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 09:02:40

No, the rent pays for the mortgage, no profit other than equity. He does regard that house as his though.

Yes, I think he does feel insecure about that. Perhaps he can feel better about that (especially wrt his traditional family) if he 'knows' he has provided in the past?

TimberTot Sun 24-Mar-13 09:09:50

Given his re-writing of history I would see if you can get yourself put on the deeds of both properties.

Check this with a solicitor but I thought you could be named on the deeds even if not the mortgage holder.

It may help to have both names registered if you need to sell one of your 2 properties as far as any tax liability calculation is concerned.

If he objects then you can see that he regards it as his even though you contributed to funding the mortgage payments.

This cannot be swept under the carpet as he now has form for belittling your financial contribution in front of his family.

May be you could approach the conversation by opening with....

"Have I ever made an issue of your lack of "financial" contribution whilst being a SAHD ?" .....

"No ?".......

"Well, how reasonable is it then for you to flat out deny/LIE ABOUT* (*=pick your choice of descriptive terminology) my financial contributions for a period of time when I was, as you can see in black and white, jointly-funding the mortgage repayments and household bills ?"

I personally would be asking him if he really believed his statement and if so, whether he thinks he has early onset memory loss as this is such a huge thing to totally forget and to be so sure that he was right to call you a LIAR in front of other people.

I'd also be reminding him of the time he made you cry in front of his parents about your lack of financial contribution whilst being a SAHM and how he pressured you into finding some way to bring in money. Summarise the difference in your treatments of each other in respect of financial contributions and ask for acknowledgement

Definitely keep all bank statements (from as far back as you can) under lock and key so they cannot be destroyed.

BLOO3Z Sun 24-Mar-13 09:22:54

Can you go and see a solicitor to get your name on house deeds.. It's not stupidly expensive..

BibbettyBobbettyBoo Sun 24-Mar-13 09:33:36

Not really, no. We live abroad now.

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