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OH of 8 years has 2 kids he didn't tell me about. Gutted.

(242 Posts)
Superloopy7 Fri 01-Mar-13 15:54:15

I found out from my OH's mother on Weds that he fathered twin boys 25 years ago when he was a teenager. I knew absolutely nothing about them until I walked into his Mum's house a few weeks ago to hear two strangers calling her Nan. I asked my OH about them and he said they were an ex girlfriend's kids. I asked him again a few days later outright if they were his -they look like his Dad - and again he denied it.

His mum eventually told me because she thought I had a right to know. One of the boys has just become a dad, making my OH a grandad and my 4 yr old and 1yr old aunties. I've been with OH 8 years and no-one, not even him, the father of my two girls thought to tell me till now.

I'm a reasonable, patient understanding person who can forgive mistakes but I can't forgive being lied to and even conned.

I don't know what to think or do for the best. We've been on rocky ground for the past 18months due to his lack of responsibility and preferring to smoke in his den rather than spend time with us. I feel this deceit is the final straw. I feel like I've been catapulted into someone else's life.

How would you feel?

TheSeniorWrangler Fri 01-Mar-13 15:56:34

i would feel very very angry.. you need to find out why he hid it from you and lied about it repeatedly!

ISeeSmallPeople Fri 01-Mar-13 15:57:21

Wow.

So they all lied to you?

PedlarsSpanner Fri 01-Mar-13 15:58:49

oh my goodness

all of them have lied to you

I would be terribly upset sad

AnAirOfHope Fri 01-Mar-13 16:02:23

shock

Why did they not tell you?

Has he paid maintance for them?

What about birthdays or weddings?

No photos of them at all?

I would leave thats one of a big fucking thing to hide.

Blu Fri 01-Mar-13 16:03:50

And all this time, the boys were in contact with their Nan?
Do they know that they have 2 half sisters?

How would I feel?

I would feel utterly betrayed. By the deceit, by the lack of trust implied in not telling me, by my children having been lied to and denied knowledge of family, by living in false circumstances, and even, though this is not very noble of me, in feeling that I never signed up to my children's inheritance being shared. I would also feel contempt for a man who hid the existence of his children, and denied them a relationship with extended family.

If I had known from the outset I would have wanted to be supportive and to get to know them as appropriate and for it to be a positive thing.

What I might do from now on would depend on the explanation I got for all this. It would have to be extremely bloody convincing.

Superloopy7 Fri 01-Mar-13 16:04:48

OH says he was scared it might put me off him. I told him that would have been my decision to make, but he should know that I am not a judgemental person.

I feel like all trust is gone because he's lied to me - which he has done before over money, speeding tickets and silly things, and I told him then I won't stand being lied to.

Willow36 Fri 01-Mar-13 16:05:40

Gosh, I'd be distraught, I think. You poor thing. I have no words of advice but one massive hug for you.

Ginebra Fri 01-Mar-13 16:08:25

Those are two big secrets! how weird that he would do that, that it would never come out in 8 years. Plenty of 'right moments' for any 'this is a long story but.....' And then, when you came face to face with his sons that he would attempt to continue the 'cover up'. shock NO wonder you feel betrayed.

I would be furious, op. And hurt. Oh yes, and appalled. When you asked him if they were his sons he denied it? Nice.

God, you must be in shock. So sorry, op.

Hassled Fri 01-Mar-13 16:09:12

Quite aside from the lying (and I'm with you there on the enormity of that), there's the fact he must be a truly shit father to those boys. Keeping it secret for 8 years implies he's seen very little of them, or done very little in the way of maintenance. 8 years ago they were what, 17? They would have needed a supportive, involved father.

Ginebra Fri 01-Mar-13 16:10:36

The 'scared it would put you off' excuse is a bit slim, as when you met him the boys were already 17. That is not something that would put me off a man anyway, having almost adult sons.

Unless, are you nearer to his sons' age? is he afraid you will prefer them confused

Well, he has certainly put you off him by keeping such an enormous and important thing a secret for 8 years and then lying about it.

Superloopy7 Fri 01-Mar-13 16:10:47

Blu - you're right about how this impacts on my girls. Their Nan told me that my OH doesn't want them to be told they're their brothers. They've met my girls and apparently adore them. Contempt is exactly how I'm feeling.

I don't know the back story yet - why his Mum has stayed in touch but he hasn't. His Mum hinted that he'd been treated really badly by the boys' mother

He has denied his children. Twice. He has lied and deceived you, and so has his mum. They have neither backbone nor morals.

I would not leave a man for having children, but for pretending they did not exist, and lie about them would for sure be a dealbreaker.

Ginebra Fri 01-Mar-13 16:15:58

Oh He's a Compartmentaliser.

Anyfucker has a great list of fuckwitery to watch out for. Blame is one of the things. However my x fil was a master, and absolute master of Compartmentalisation. It sounds bonkers. But he had control over every relationship in the family and they all flowed through him, like he was the server. He had had a child from a previous relationship too. Anybody who went 'over his head' and contacted the older half-sibling, or his sister, or their cousins, without going through him first was punished by being excluded from the next meal out, or no cheque on their birthday.

Superloopy7 Fri 01-Mar-13 16:16:30

Yep. Feel like I'm living with a stranger tbh. Since Weds in trying to keep things normal for my DDs I think he thinks I'll just deal and move on. I'm really not sure I can though.

snowshapes Fri 01-Mar-13 16:17:39

Oh, this happened to me too in a slightly different way - XH#1 omitted to tell me that DD had a half-sister, because - oh who knows? He thought it would ruin his relationship with DD hmm. I did insist that they all met, but we were already separated by then, so it wasn't a bombshell to our marriage or anything like that. I am sorry you find yourself in this position.

FWIW, I don't think being treated badly by the boy's mother (if that is true) is a reason not to see your children or stay in touch.

TheSeniorWrangler Fri 01-Mar-13 16:19:25

to move on, i think you need to insist on absolute honesty.. including those boys being told about you and your DDs

as their half siblings, its their right to know should they want to seek a relationship when they're older.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Fri 01-Mar-13 16:20:15

This would absolutely be a deal breaker for me Superloopy7

How can you ever trust him again when he's hidden this enormous part of his life from you? He is not treating your relationship as a partnership.

What if he treated your children the same way as he has treated his boys?

Not sure many relationships can survive the implications of keeping a secret like this.

burleyburley Fri 01-Mar-13 16:26:27

He has a den?

probablyparanoid Fri 01-Mar-13 16:26:39

By his own admission the reason that he hid this from you was to get what he wanted - you.

His actions meant that you did not have the full picture before going into the relationship with you or staying in it - you were deprived of the right to make your own decisions based on all the facts. That is a way of controlling you - it is a passive form of abuse in my view.

He is not fully acknowledging his children by this relationship - by doing that he is not taking responsibility for their existence and his actions in bringing them into existence. It is the action of a man who cannot take on basic adult responsibilities.

Is he otherwise a responsible person? You suggest that he is not.
He may have other skeleton's in the closet so dig around a bit.

Did you know of the meeting with the boys? - to do that without your knowledge is awful - it is not acting in partnership with you in relation to your own children - I would be furious.

I would think very carefully about whether to stay with him. Is he really likely to change - even if he is remorseful right now?

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I would ask him to leave for a bit just so that you can collect your thoughts and get some distance from him

Blu Fri 01-Mar-13 16:27:34

So your girls have met these boys but you were not told about them? And they are supposed to maintain a lie to your dds?

Does he see the boys, or is it just his mother who is in contact?

This is just curiosity, really, but every new layer of lie would make me ever angrier. Especially lying to the children, or building up lies for them to discover in the future, and as for expecting those poor young men to pretend they are not relatives - how must THAT have made them feel??

cjel Fri 01-Mar-13 16:32:29

I feel very sorry for you and even wonder what the twins feel of being a hidden secret from step mum and DSs. I would want more answers and open family.

Mollydoggerson Fri 01-Mar-13 16:33:58

The level of deceit is outstanding, coupled with his lack of respect for everyone. I wouldn't be able to sleep with him again.

It would be game over for me.

Lueji Fri 01-Mar-13 16:35:59

You may or may not want to finish the relationship over this, but, if you don't break up now I'd insist on no more lies.
Telling everyone, including the girls and DS, friends, neighbours, whatever.
And not another lie EVER.

The same for his lack of responsibility and spending too much time on his den.
Everyone needs some time alone, but there should be boundaries, particularly if you are left in sole care of the children.

expatinscotland Fri 01-Mar-13 16:36:27

So he has a long history of lying to you about money, speeding tickets and other things. He prefers to smoke weed in a den to spending time with his children by you. He has lied to you about two human beings he created and a grandchild?

Sorry, but I'd have to ask him to leave.

He is a serial liar who lies to manipulate you.

expatinscotland Fri 01-Mar-13 16:37:18

Insisting on no more lies is pointless because this person lies compulsively to get what he wants. And not just little white one, but whoppers like hiding two grown men he created.

Arithmeticulous Fri 01-Mar-13 16:53:35

If he's willing to lie to you for 8 years about his two children and then grandchildren WTF else is he lying about?

bestsonever Fri 01-Mar-13 16:56:59

He's not improved much over the years it would seem, ignored his first 2 Ds's, now ignoring your DD's. Begs the question why he fathers children at all as he just isn't interested in being a parent. As his mother kept up the lie for 8 years, it would seem that he has deep-seated learned behaviour from her which is not likely to change.
As lies go, it's a whopper! Now you know how how big they can get, just think how easy he must find many other smaller ones?

lunar1 Fri 01-Mar-13 16:57:25

This would be a deal breaker for me. Who knows what else he has lied about.

So sorry you are going through this OP

Superloopy7 Fri 01-Mar-13 17:02:21

Blu - he doesn't see them as far as I know. I need to talk with him about why when who and hope that I get the truth. My DDs are minded by their Nan when I'm in work and that's where they've met them.

I feel contempt not for the teenager who had the children but for the man who denies them and lies to my face.

Thanks for all your supportive messages. It' helping me get some perspective on the whole sorry, sad business.

bleedingheart Fri 01-Mar-13 17:14:43

What a shock to have to deal with! And to lie and lie again when asked. How could he?
It would be a deal breaker for me.

Cakecrumbsinmybra Fri 01-Mar-13 17:15:56

Wow, OP, you must have very little respect for this man, and therefore it would surely be impossible to carry on in the marriage. It's not like a small mistake, a little white lie, or something else that could be overlooked, but systematic lying over a lifetime. Does he show any remorse at all? Does he smoke a large amount?

Blu Fri 01-Mar-13 17:25:13

Really sorry you have had this shock, Superloopy, very upsetting.

Superloopy7 Fri 01-Mar-13 17:27:36

If I carry on in the relationship I worry what effect it would have on my own self worth and self respect and the message this could send to my girls as they grow up.

I don't know how much he smokes only the amount of time and money he spends doing it. At its worst it was costing us £100 per week and he took money from my kids' money boxes to finance it. He manages to justify it all to himself though which is the scary thing. I'm not sure he thinks any of what he does is wrong.

Seems you have many reasons to file for divorce, and will have no problems citing unreasonable behaviour, as sadly there is plenty to chose from!

Honestly? I can't see how you move forward from this. He's a liar. He doesn't like responsibility. He thinks his own wants and needs trump everyone else's. He cannot be relied upon or trusted to stick with it when the going gets tough. So I'd separate from him, and work on getting my DC and their half brothers some kind of relationship. Because their father will never be worth it, IMO.

Feelingpissedoff Fri 01-Mar-13 17:32:11

I have a thread on here about my husband. He has two children that he never sees or told me about either. Who knew it happened in real life? There is amazing support on here,I am v grateful to the people who have been so kind & I'm sure they will support you & offer great advice.

TalkativeJim Fri 01-Mar-13 18:56:34

Wow.

Sorry OP but it would be game over for me too.

Lying is who he is. You must know that after this it won't ever really matter what he says again- you'll never be able to look at him with love or respect or trust (not that he commanded much of that anyway by the sounds of it). He's a pig.

And you're quite right about the effect of that on your children.

Finally, now that you know what a scum of a father this man is, presumably you won't want him, still lying or not, to be a full-time influence on them. That goes for the 'grandmother' who also contributed to the deceit of you and your children.

You can all do a lot better, including his poor sons. Perhaps you could keep in touch with them independently?

expatinscotland Fri 01-Mar-13 19:01:18

'I don't know how much he smokes only the amount of time and money he spends doing it. At its worst it was costing us £100 per week and he took money from my kids' money boxes to finance it. He manages to justify it all to himself though which is the scary thing. I'm not sure he thinks any of what he does is wrong. '

He doesn't. That's why he has no trouble manipulating people with lies.

£100/week?! Seriously?!

And took money for his kids money boxes to finance it?

And lied about two human beings he created, rarely saw them, didn't pay to support them, lied to you about money and speeding tickets, and takes money from his kids to smoke.

Yes, your self-worth will suffer if you stay with him, because he's a lying manipulative, selfish arse.

colditz Fri 01-Mar-13 19:12:54

Your children have two brothers to get to know. I would advise you contact their mother and find out why your so called partner has been such an appalling father.

lalalonglegs Fri 01-Mar-13 19:13:37

Even if it was a great relationship and you knew all about his sons, the fact is that he cut those two boys out of his life that would be difficult for me to get over.

expatinscotland Fri 01-Mar-13 19:15:50

Is he smoking cigarettes or weed, out of curiosity?

ZZZenAgain Fri 01-Mar-13 19:20:07

what a shock for you. I don't know what I would do in your shoes. I suppose you will have to start talking to your OH, maybe even with a counsellor and try to get to the bottom of this.

Do the sons live far away from you?

Tamoo Fri 01-Mar-13 19:31:24

I don't know much about the price of weed but is it possible he was actually snaffling the money away as maintenance for these two boys? And telling you it was to pay for his habit.

PandaNot Fri 01-Mar-13 19:41:01

I don't often read posts on here and think "that would be a deal breaker for me" but wow, this is absolutely one situation where my DH would be out the door as fast as his little legs could carry him! Wow, I don't even know where to start with how many things are wrong with this situation!

izzyizin Fri 01-Mar-13 22:20:27

Given his colossal sin by omission which others have colluded with for many years, together with the repeated lies he's told during your marriage over 'money, speeding tickets and silly things', the question now is what are you going to do in order to prove true to your word that you won't stand being lied to?

perfectstorm Fri 01-Mar-13 22:31:14

God, I'm so sorry.

It has to be the decision you reach, obviously, but I think you need to ask yourself if you could (and perhaps even should) trust someone capable of this level of cool, ongoing deceit, over so many years and involving so very many people. Is this the relationship model you want for your daughters? And when they find out about their brothers (and one day, they will) do you want them to regard you with the same level of betrayal as you now regard your MIL and OH?

Again I am so very sorry. It's unfathomable as to why he'd do this - never mind to you, awful as that is, but to all four of his kids as well. His poor sons, how must it feel to be some sordid little secret like this?

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Fri 01-Mar-13 22:36:53

Get out of there. You have a whole lifetime ahead of you, you don't need to be tied to this man. If he will lie about having children, he will lie (as he has done in the past) about anything. If he can deny his sons like that, he's not a decent man nor a decent father to any of his children. Dispicable git, get as far away from him as you can and move forward in your life.

VelvetSpoon Fri 01-Mar-13 22:45:48

So sorry OP.

Something not dissimilar happened to a friend of mine, although at a very much earlier stage of her relationship. She was with someone for about a year, not that long but they were both very much looking long term, they were practically (if not formally) living together and talking about getting married, when out of the blue she found out he was still legally married to someone else - albeit separated, and in the process of divorcing - and had 2 children under 8 who he had no contact with.

She saw him and his family on a daily basis for months, considered his parents and siblings as friends, and they'd all colluded together to keep the lie from her. I think his reasoning was the Ex was a bitch, wouldn't let him see the kids, and that telling my friend about it initially would have put her off him, and then when he knew she was serious about him, the lie was too big.

She never could see him or his family in the same way after it came out, they split up very soon after.

VelvetSpoon Fri 01-Mar-13 22:47:33

I should add, it was obviously a much simpler decision for my friend, as there were no children of the relationship to consider.

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Sat 02-Mar-13 00:57:47

Smoking in his den - do you mean cannabis, OP? If so, then undeclared children, plus ignoring parking tickets, plus drugs is not painting a very desirable picture of the man. Sorry.

Dozer Sat 02-Mar-13 08:45:28

How awful for you.

Even if the relationship was generally really good it would not be at all unreasonable to walk away due to the revelation. It was wrong and selfish of him to lie to you for all this time, and also raises questions about him as a parent. The other problems you've mentioned don't go in his favour.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 02-Mar-13 08:52:10

I think you need to let him see and feel the full extent of your anger. He has lied on epic proportions. I am pretty raging and I don't know you or your children!

You have to think how he may have treated the mother of the older children if that is how he has treated you and your DDs. So do not wholeheartedly swallow the line about their mother being unpleasant towards him. You have to judge him on his own actions which are shocking.

I would kick him out for some thinking space. Tell the children he is away with a friend for a week and then your feelings can clarify without you constantly trying t 'keep the peace'.

RivalSibling Sat 02-Mar-13 09:54:24

Those poor boys.

Earlybird Sat 02-Mar-13 15:22:58

I'd not be able to trust him again. And I'd be furious and hurt. Who knows what else he has decided not to tell you? It was information he withheld, but he lied outright when asked directly. It speaks volumes that it was finally his Mum who told you.

I'm so sorry. I don't know how you could get past this.

HollyBerryBush Sat 02-Mar-13 15:56:48

Is there a question over the paternity of the twin boys? Does your partner accept theyare his? It could be that his mother wanted grand children so badly that she accepted them as her own flesh and blood.

Has your partner now admitted that they are his/or accepted they might be his? or is he in total denial?

Chesntoots Sat 02-Mar-13 20:35:39

My ex had twin boys he had nothing to do with. Didn't even want to know their names. They were not "allowed" to family do's. His mum was in touch with them but for some reason decided that the best thing to do would be to go along with whatever my ex wanted.
The sad thing is that he went on to have a daughter with his then wife (the boys were in their late teens by then) and he even insisted that his daughter was not to know anything about them. While married his wife wanted their daughter to have a relationship with them and later (after his divorce when we got together) I said it wasn't fair on his daughter. He was having none of it. Selfish, selfish twat...

Hesterton Sat 02-Mar-13 21:11:28

How incredibly sad for the boys that their father treats them like a shameful secret. And how wrong of him to lie to you about it all.

Superloopy7 Sat 02-Mar-13 22:50:29

Talked to him last night. He said the boys mother made it impossible for him to have a relationship with them. He was cut out by her moving house continuously then moving 200 miles away. When they moved back to their hometown a few years before he met me, my OH met them to say if they needed anything he was there for them but they didn't want anything to do with him. They called someone else Dad now.

OH said he thought he'd told me?! But that he didn't want to raise it again in case it upset the best thing that ever happened to him - our relationship.

Yes he smokes cannabis every day and I've tried to make him realise this the kind of Dad I want for my DDs. He is adored by my eldest girl and I'm petrified by what a split would do to her particularly.

When we first got together people said they thought he wasn't right for me - a man from the wrong side of the tracks -but I knew he loved me and I wanted to give us a chance. I feel so let down.

Doha Sat 02-Mar-13 23:05:15

And you believe that story,!!!!!!!!
come on Superloopy7 don't be fooled by him.
IF he had really really wanted to keep in touch with his boys he would have found a way.

duchesse Sat 02-Mar-13 23:13:44

Riiiight. So, his mother manages to keep in close contact with her grand children but he couldn't. hmm

Flojobunny Sat 02-Mar-13 23:14:35

OP you should speak to the boys and get their side. I very much expect they have a good reason for not wanting anything from him.
Never mn

It doesn't add up. If he'd been unable to maintain a relationship with the boys, then his mother wouldn't have one with them either. If they refused to acknowledge their father when they moved back, why would they accept their paternal grandmother?

And there's absolutely no way that he could have thought he'd told you. For one thing, everyone else wouldn't have been keeping a big family secret from you if he'd already told you. And, more importantly, it's not like he forgot to tell you that you were out of milk when you left for the shops; there is no way you could have thought you told someone that actually you have two children already. It's not like you'd simply have nodded and said, 'That's nice dear'.

He just doesn't want to admit that he abandoned those boys.

Flojobunny Sat 02-Mar-13 23:15:46

Never mind what 'it' will do to DD1. What about what he has done to DD1.

Superloopy7 Sat 02-Mar-13 23:41:35

It really is the worst. We've been carrying on as normal today albeit strained and with him falling over himself to do the washing, make tea, do a bit of shopping. Having said that, he's been outside smoking for the last hour and a half, so he's not trying too hard to convince me he's repentant.

I think I'm still in shock and a bit in denial and only really dealing with it when I get a surge of anger. I think I need that anger to act. I think he thinks it'll all eventually blow over. When I asked him what did he think would happen now he just mumbled that he's not in any position to call the shots.

Feelingpissedoff Sun 03-Mar-13 06:46:27

Please don't let this get swept under the carpet. I believed my husband,wish I hadn't when I'd had my biggest chance to get shot.
I think his story is a crock of shit I'm afraid. If his mum manages a relationship then he could have had one too.

Lueji Sun 03-Mar-13 07:29:36

In ex's family there was a case where the mother of the children wanted nothing to do with her ex (exBIL), but she would allow the grandparents (exPIL) and me to visit, although it was a bit strained.

So, that part is somewhat plausible.

Still, not good news for you.

Such actions suggest he was really bad. Unfaithful, violent or did something to really hurt her. If not simply not caring, which is quite bad in itself.

You are disappointed now, but he's not really the man you want him to be.

HollyBerryBush Sun 03-Mar-13 07:31:38

I think you need to ask his mother what happened. Then contrive a visit when the boys are there and ask them. Somewhere in the middle will be the truth.

Complicated scenarios, will always have very differing perspectives on here. you see it all the time with cries of "LTB and move very far away/dont put his name on the birth certificate", so when it does happen, especially back in the days of no mobiles and very little internet usage, it would be difficult to track down someone.

FWIW, my cousin and his GF split on very bad terms (no idea why) but his mother always kept in touch with the girl, to see her grandchild. Some people do ahve the ability to not be jaundiced by their own childs actions, ditto for the girl to allow nanny to see the baby and have a relationship.

I'd also point out if this were reversed and a 60yo woman was posting in a trauma that a baby she put up for adoption was trying to come back into her life - a secret she had kept for 40 years - I wonder what all your advice would be?

but my opinion? not that it's anymore valid than anyone elses - and there really just isn't enough factual information to make an informed opinion about the relationship between your partner/his mother/the twins - he smokes cannabis every day - he'd have been out the door the first time he lit up. I wouldn't have that filth in my hosue round my children.

exoticfruits Sun 03-Mar-13 07:45:00

I would find it unforgivable. Apart from not telling you, he has been a very poor father and stopped the half siblings from having a relationship. I wouldn't want to have children with someone who wasn't involved with ones he already had.
I agree with HollyBerryBush- the cannabis alone would be a deal breaker- I wouldn't even live with a normal smoker.

zippey Sun 03-Mar-13 07:58:55

Is the whole cannabis thing not flagging up warnings as well? Is that a good environment for your children to be around?

CleopatrasAsp Sun 03-Mar-13 08:09:17

Purely based on the fact that he treated his twin sons so badly I would boot him out, but then I really despise men who dump their children.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with this OP, it must have been such a shock for you.

SpecialAgentKat Sun 03-Mar-13 08:39:16

I only read your OP but I am speechless.

How would I feel? Well I'd instantly wonder if my H was a bigamist and there was some other poor sod who didn't think my DC deserved to be part of their sibling's lives. I'd also seriously question his dedication to raising your children, I'd wonder what else he'd lied about, I'd want to cry and laugh and scream and punch walls and scrub and try to go numb inside.

Because I couldn't live with knowing my loving, sweet, devoted DH who does so much for our DTs could happily ignore other children for twenty five years. Him saying he was worried how I'd feel would make it even worse IMO. At the time a potential relationship means more than these kids? What about their mum? Did he do anything to help her?

Also, even if I found a way to forgive him (doubtful) I'd never, ever forgive any of my inlaws. Ever.

comingintomyown Sun 03-Mar-13 08:53:58

The thing is whatever the circumstances surrounding his boys growing up were why didnt he tell you about them ?

I think if he had of tried to be in their lives but wasnt allowed then he would have been far more likely to have told you about it . I am afraid I think it more likely he didnt and now realises how badly that reflects on him so he kept quiet.

Either way its unforgivable to have kept this secret and says a great deal about him.

kittybiscuits Sun 03-Mar-13 09:07:28

-As he's a complete waste of space anyway- I would ask him to go and give you some space to decide what you want. After how he's behaved, do you not feeling like booting his ass out of the door, as he mooches around self-pityingly getting stoned as usual? You don't have to traumatize over splitting up the family- just say you need a break and he should go.

A couple of posters have suggested that you could ask the twins how the situation came about. Completely inappropriate. If I could work out how to discretely contact his ex though for a chat, I would be sorely tempted.

kittybiscuits Sun 03-Mar-13 09:08:19

Ah, strikethroughfail on phone!

The thing is, he's saying he thought he told you. But when you asked him if those boys were his sons, he said no!

Flojobunny Sun 03-Mar-13 09:18:39

Why is it inappropriate kitty the 'boys' are 25 yo not children. They would be much more honest than their mother and indeed his mother, she is clearly completely biased and can't be trusted to tell the truth.
But to be honest smoking cannabis in his 'den' everyday its clear OP would put up with anything so its all irrelevant anyway.

Xiaoxiong Sun 03-Mar-13 09:20:49

Not only did he say no, he said it twice, a few days apart.

I'm sorry OP. I don't think there's any way back from this.

I do think you should have a chat with your MIL though - is it possible he told her you knew/he had told you everything? I wouldn't immediately assume she was colluding to lie to you, more likely she thought you already knew so why being it up again. Who knows what tissue of lie this guy spun to her and others. He might even have said "I told her, she was upset and never wants to hear them mentioned or she won't let our children see their granny if the boys are round."

kittybiscuits Sun 03-Mar-13 09:33:56

Oh apols flojo I just read the recent posts after reading this thread yesterday and in my dodgy rememberings the twins were kids. However, I have been quizzed as an adult about my own father's highly reconstructed account of why him being a shit parent was everyone else's fault and it's not a very good position to be put in, neither is being blamed when the girlfriend goes back to him and says 'kitty says this'. He was also a self centred long-time stoner, interestingly enough. Sorry for getting it wrong. The idea of asking the twins still makes me feel uncomfortable. The bottom line is this - OP knows she cannot trust her OH because he is a massive liar and a worm.

comingintomyown Sun 03-Mar-13 10:17:28

I agree with not approaching the twins

Apart from anything else I dont see what they could possibly say to exonerate him from the whole thing.

I dont see what the dope smoking thing has to do with this in all honesty although I suppose the OP must be unhappy about it or she wouldnt have included the information

Op. just ask him to leave....

His den is not in a locked garage that you dont have access to, by any chance?

lolaflores Sun 03-Mar-13 11:25:30

The dope smoking in my view is relevant as it points to a distinct lack of taking responsibility. Avoidance and keeping the world at a foggy arms lenght. My eldest DDs father was the same and also spent her first birthday money from my family on a good old smoke up...
Imagine if the joint were a bottlle of whiskey or a hit of cocaine?! The behaviour is not useful. Withdrawing into a "den" to smoke...child!>!>

The twins are not at fault here, they are victims too and innocent. Do not look for answers, you won't get any. get rid and keep rid. this man has proved he is in no frame of mind to change ever. his mum needs a bit of a think too.

squeaver Sun 03-Mar-13 11:33:55

I agree, go and speak to his mum. Just for your own peace if mind you need to know the full story.

But I think you know this is all over, don't you? Is he really going to stop smoking dope? Do you really believe he's telling the truth about his other children?

Does he work, by the way?

WinterMymble Sun 03-Mar-13 12:33:13

Oh my goodness I am so sorry OP - what a hideous situation - and you do know he is still lying, yes? His claim he ha already told you- as other posters have noted that doesn't mesh with his initial denials and the mandated secrecy at his mother's house with the boys.

PLEASE chuck him. The number of ways he is a twat... I know your dd loves him but staying wd be madness - and jn any case he will just lie and let her down too ...

I agree it must be over. You cannot trust this man at all. He's been lying to you by omission and outright for your entire relationship, about all sorts of things. That's unforgivable. And I wouldn't put up with the cannabis smoking/spending all the family money on it either. The fact that he's barely repentant tells you that he doesn't think he's really done anything wrong. I don't see how any relationship could come back from that.

However, more positively your children have brothers they didn't know about, and nieces/nephews who are (presumably) close to their own ages. You have an opportunity to build a relationship with these boys and to integrate them into your family (if you want to). Your MIL might be willing to help facilitate this.

springyhops Sun 03-Mar-13 13:34:35

My dear girl, you're with a drug addict. It amazes me how weed isn't seen for what it is.

Difficult emotions? smoke a spliff. Difficult history? smoke a spliff. Difficult anything? smoke a spliff. Check out. Smoke a spliff.

He's made this a lifestyle choice. Please don't underestimate how drastically this affects him and your life together.

I'm not surprised he has conveniently 'forgotten' his twin children - he's spending all his money and time forgetting everything through smoking endless spliffs.

In my book, that's the biggest problem you have. The twins etc is an offshoot of that.

Nightmare.

Domjolly Sun 03-Mar-13 14:08:01

So in order to keep up this lie hes denied two boys a father also denied you girls there brothers also hes deneid you the CHOICE weather you wanted to be a step mother espically with a man ho has no intest in his children unless there u nder his nose

I always said i could never be with somone who would deny his own children my dad did this turns out i have 12 siblings my mother or his current wife new about until 10 years ago step mum sayed with him but its been like poision to there relationship they basically live seprate lives

She also wonders what elese he has manged to keep form her

just one other point op it means you whole family on his side have been lieing to you they watched you walk up the isle knowing what they know

Superloopy7 Mon 04-Mar-13 22:55:31

He says he's glad I know. He felt sick every time we went to his Mum's in case someone said anything. His Mum and his family didn't realise I didn't know. I still don't know how I feel about what he says were the circumstances leading to him having lost contact with the boys, when he was only a kid himself. He says he had no choice. And as sad as the story is and even if he has been wronged he should have told me when we started the relationship and at the very least told the truth when I asked and not make me feel like a paranoid, head-muddled fool.

The smoking has become an issue over the last 3 years when he started smoking more in the evenings, into the early hours and during the day at weekends. I need to stress, this is never in the house, but I realise it is an addiction and I've been trying to support him so that he gives it up. I'm just not being listened to. I mentioned it in the context of this latest revelation because it has been an issue that's put our relationship on the line at least 4 times in the last year and I feel that this is a lie too far.

He's like a split personality. He can be so considerate and helpful and an affectionate playful father but against the backdrop of lies, financial and personal irresponsibility I really don't know who I'm sharing my life with.

Thanks to everyone who has posted. I have some hard decisions to make in terms of what's best for my DDs and me and that includes whether to try and broker relationships between them and their half brothers.

cjel Mon 04-Mar-13 22:58:29

Hope you are able to make your right choices for you and DDs,hope you have someone you can chat to about it.

izzyizin Mon 04-Mar-13 23:54:19

against the backdrop of lies, financial and personal irresponsibility I really don't know who I'm sharing my life with

It's not a 'backdrop' - his lies, together with his financial and personal irresponsibility, are in the forefront and they provide clearcut evidence of what he is, which is wholly untrustworthy.

You are best advised to cut your losses as far as he's concerned and facilitate a relationship between your dds and their half-siblings on an 'as and when convenient' basis for all of you.

Xiaoxiong Tue 05-Mar-13 10:57:04

Good luck. To all of us on the outside it seems obvious what you need to do but from the inside it must feel unbearably difficult and sad - please do keep posting for support, there are people here with loads of great practical, legal and financial advice.

There's one silver lining at least - if his mum and family didn't know you didn't know, he's the only person who has been lying to you. This means that you only need to make a decision with regard to your relationship with him and not with your MIL and the rest of his family. I hope it's a bit easier on you now you know she wasn't colluding with him to keep you in the dark, and that also she made the effort to stay in contact with her grandsons over the years when he somehow was unable or unwilling to do so. This bodes well for your DDs and their future relationship with their father's side of the family.

zippey Tue 05-Mar-13 16:42:45

Isnt smoking cannibas illegal? If it is then its not a great example to be setting for your chidlren. Still, hope things work out for you. I do feel sorry for his two older kids though.

poppymay13 Wed 06-Mar-13 11:29:02

Superloopy 7 it sounds like we have a lot in common re the weed habit. I'd like to talk more - how do you send private messages on here?

carmenelectra Wed 06-Mar-13 12:31:57

Oh god. What a massive secret to keep.

And his family thought you knew. Oh really. Why didn't they ever mention these kids then.

He has basically duped you.

The cannabis is another big issue. In my experience people who smoke cannabis like Benson and Hedges tend to be losers. Seem to be talking through a brain of fog, have no motivation and appear to be thick.

musicismylife Wed 06-Mar-13 12:43:49

Hi OP.

I haven't read all of the threads, only skimmed over them but I wonder whether he saw his twins all along just at his mother's house. It's worth a thought. It's awful that he has kept his children as his 'dirty little secret'.

I don't know how you would get through anything like this but you will, in time.

x

PootlePosyPerkin Wed 06-Mar-13 12:47:24

I agree with what others have said - those poor boys sad. Although they are adults now. How on earth must they have felt, being introduced to their little sisters but not being allowed to tell them who they were?

Like a dirty, shameful secret I'd bet sad.

No man who can do that to their own children deserves a second chance IMHO.

Isetan Wed 06-Mar-13 13:57:31

Which is it? "I thought you knew" or "I was scared my mum would let the cat out of the bag everytime we went round", he's still lying!

White ones, medium sized ones and whoppers, just like his weed habit, lying is just another of his compulsions. His dedication to the art of fuckwittery is long and unwavering.

Do not stay because you fear history repeating itself, therein lies madness.

His irresponsibility and lies are things that you can not change, however, the extent to which you expose you and your girls to this disrespectful and damaging behaviour is totally in your hands.

Would you be happy with your girls staying in a relationship with someone like their father, don't let your marriage be the model for their future
relationships.

My ex was a great Dad as long as I was there doing the boring bits; cooking, cleaning, school and activity pick and drop offs, dentist appointments.....
He was only an ok dad because I was and is a kick ass mother.
When we split,4 days a month were too much for him despite his mother taking on the boring bits. He hasn't seen his daughter in three years because he won't agree to supervised visits. I' m guessing he's afraid that the contact centre and/ or courts won't sanction ad hoc when he can be arsed contact.

It's taken a very long long time to come to terms that my ex just doesn't care enough about our daughter to make a commitment.

You have a voice Pp.

Isetan Wed 06-Mar-13 13:59:47

Op not Pp.

mummymccar Thu 07-Mar-13 09:06:07

For me, what it would all come down to is "what else is he hiding?". If he can hide two children for eight years then I bet that isn't all.
Sorry you are going through this.

For me, what it would all come down to is "what else is he hiding?". If he can hide two children for eight years then I bet that isn't all

This. Although more that he directly lied when questioned about it.

Sorry you've got to deal with this.

chucklemummy Thu 07-Mar-13 11:52:34

How long was there between him denying it and you finding out Superloopy? Sorry you're going through this. How are things lying at the moment? Is he still on the charm offensive hoping it will all blow over?

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 13:32:22

I know mummymccar. The enormity of this deceit is bringing up some other major instances where I've battled with trust issues and taken his word for it.

It's not going to help with the character portrayal or indeed your judgements of me in choosing a partner when I say that I knew he had two other DCs from the relationship prior to ours. When I first got together with him he was seeing them for supervised visits but after about 4 months of us seeing each other these stopped. He said that his xOH didn't like that we were together and refused him access. He didn't want to take her to court for access, saying that it would cause more grief and hurt to the kids and everyone involved. I said then and have been saying all along that if he wants to then I'd support him 100% and of course, I offered to end the relationship if it helped him get access.

I've been living with the guilt of feeling that because he and I got together too soon after the relationship breakup, (approx 2 months) that I was to blame for him not being able to see his kids. This latest revelation has made me wonder if it's just that he stopped paying maintenance or demanded to see them on different terms (he doesn't put away money for them at all or send birthday cards) and has been refused access because of that, rather than because of me. It's definitely made me stick with the relationship over the years because of the thought of what he's given up to be with me.

Then there was the 700+ texts to one number over a 4 week period when I was heavily pregnant with DD2. I am the account holder for his phone and when a whopper of a bill landed I checked it out, checked his phone and found the popular number listed under an address rather than a name. The texts had been sent all hours of night and day. When I confronted him about it he first of all denied it saying it was for a forum that he subscribed to - I then told him I'd checked his phone and it was for an address and there was one corresponding text still on his phone which said "Hi peachy, sorry I couldn't pop round today with your birthday card". Doesn't sound like the sort of text you would send the administrator of a forum... then he told me that it was an old female friend who was having a bad time and he'd had the number in his phone under an address because he'd been doing work on the house (he's a plumber) and that's how they got back in touch. He swore on our DDs lives that there was nothing else to it. I texted the woman (who I'd never even heard of) and she said how much he adored me and DD1 and it was totally innocent, although she could see how I would think that!

At the same time as writing this and realising how it appears to strangers (I'd be screaming at me to GTFO) I still care for him.

Chucklemummy, there were 8 weeks between me asking OH are they your kids and me finding out. Things at home are really awkward - separate rooms and tears from him when I leave for work or go to bed without showing any affection.

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 13:33:46

sorry for the long extra post blush

moondog Thu 07-Mar-13 13:36:26

What, there are two other kids as well as the secret ones? shock

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 13:41:10

Yes. He has six now ... to my knowledge

moondog Thu 07-Mar-13 13:42:39

Which rather begs the question as to why you got involved with him in the first place.
He sounds like a first class prick.

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 13:45:40

I think you are correct and that he has lied to you about the reasons he lost contact with his other two kids. Even worse, he has lied to you and made it seem like it was your fault sad

I'm not judging you for choosing him as a partner - hindsight is 20/20 but everyone makes mistakes. You couldn't have known the extent to which he would lie to you in the future - 8 weeks of lying straight to your face about his own children, let alone all the rest.

It's what you do when you realise you've made a mistake that matters. You say you'd be screaming at yourself to GTFO - I think you've got your answer there. Is your caring for him enough to cancel out the enormity of all the rest of what he's done and what he might do in the future? Can you ever trust him again, knowing what has happened?

GuffSmuggler Thu 07-Mar-13 13:46:00

So he has 4 kids that he hasn't bothered with and just deserted without a dad because it was 'too difficult' to do otherwise.

This is all you need to know about him to a make a decision really isn't it?

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 13:46:28

When I got together with him he was just a kind, considerate, funny man with two kids from a previous relationship. I didn't and still wouldn't judge anyone for that; it wouldn't stop me starting a relationship with them.

badinage Thu 07-Mar-13 13:49:44

Come on OP.

This man's a wrongun'.

He's got 4 kids who haven't had a father because of his selfishness. The reason he didn't go to court had nothing to do with the kids' feelings. He just couldn't be arsed and didn't want to spend the money. He's an absolute disgrace.

Of course his family knew you didn't know about the twins. It's ludicrous to think they wouldn't have cropped up in conversations with the in-laws.

He was having a bloody affair with the woman at the house and she simply covered for him so that it could continue.

It would be absolute madness to continue in this marriage. As soon as he meets someone else he'll abandon your kids too.

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 13:52:51

moondog why give the OP a kicking for what we now know in hindsight? When they got together as far as she knew he had only two kids, and he was seeing them for supervised visits and paying maintenance. I don't think that's enough to disqualify anyone from starting relationship.

But now you have additional information OP, you can make a fully informed decision. I wouldn't expect him to make any effort to have any contact with your DDs in future on the basis of his past behaviour towards his other kids sad

badinage Thu 07-Mar-13 13:53:18

Hang on, so what you're saying is that he hasn't paid a bean for any of these kids, or sent them money or remembered their birthdays - and you haven't judged him for that?

Why the hell not?

He will treat your children the same way he treats the others. In fact he does, he prefers to smoke weed.

Is this the lovely relationship you want your children growing up with? Do you want them to have relationships like this because they've not known any different?

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 13:53:59

Which just in case it's unclear is NOT a reason to stay with him!

something2say Thu 07-Mar-13 13:55:45

I would feel the same as you super loopy....

So what are you thinking you will do now?

badinage Thu 07-Mar-13 14:00:37

Having two kids might not have stopped you having a relationship with him in the first place, but I do judge someone who stayed in a relationship with a bloke who'd given up on his kids, sent no money and didn't even acknowledge their birthdays. Feeling guilt about him choosing you over his kids wasn't a reason to stay. It should have been a reason to leave. It wasn't your guilt to own then.

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 14:03:31

badinage In all honesty I've probably believed him when he's said that the cards or gifts would be destroyed and his money refused by his Ex. And I've probably been living in denial and definitely guiltily. I never wanted to think the worst of him.

badinage Thu 07-Mar-13 14:09:13

Yeah I can see that.

But no more.

I feel terribly sorry for those 4 kids and their mothers.

Please see him for what he is now and get the hell out. He's a congenital liar and a shocking father and partner.

Your guilt will get worse if you stay with him. Put your own children first now and tie him down to paying for them.

badinage Thu 07-Mar-13 14:42:08

And this is a general point.

It's high time that we started judging fathers who give up their children's rights to see them in the same way we would judge mothers who do the same thing.

If more women voted with their feet and dumped blokes who did this, it would send such a message to these dickheads that parenthood isn't a disposable option as soon as a new woman comes along.

I'm sick and tired of hearing lame excuses about psychotic ex wives and myths about the family law system being weighted against fathers, from blokes who've never even tried to do the right thing by their kids.

We should judge men like that and no woman should give them houseroom.

Owllady Thu 07-Mar-13 14:53:38

I think if he wqas scared his mum would let the cvat our of the bag then she knew you didn't know and he had asked her to keep quiet but she felt uncomfortable with it, because lets face it she is the one who has told you now. I imagine if you want to know any more, ask her

EIGHT years though, eight years. If it was a few weeks or a couple of months I could understand but after eight years you must be absolutely gutted and furious

moondog Thu 07-Mar-13 14:59:48

Hear hear Badinage.
Women would be crucified if they did to children what their father do.
And yet who allows them to behave like this?
The women who they then go on to have other relationships with.
I couldn't find a man who abandoned his family attractive on any level.

AnyFucker Germany Thu 07-Mar-13 16:21:23

What is an intelligent woman doing with a grade A loser like him?

something2say Thu 07-Mar-13 16:56:04

Learning the hard way to listen to her instincts.

You of course were born listening to yours. And you have no 'judge not lest ye be judged' instinct either it seems.

And yet who allows them to behave like this?
The women who they then go on to have other relationships with.

Oh yes, it's the woman's fault hmm

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 17:23:15

I think the point is well made. No one, not even the OP, is arguing that this guy is a weapons grade liar and pot-addled dickhead who should have been kicked out long, long ago. Hindsight is 20/20.

Now let's give the OP all the support she needs to kick this sorry tosser to the kerb and make sure she nails down the financial support for her DDs they deserve.

something2say Thu 07-Mar-13 17:38:08

I think as well, lets give her a space to talk it all through without having to jump immediately to the conclusion we all think she should make. It must be a terrible shock.

CheerfulYank Thu 07-Mar-13 17:48:57

Oh OP.

You say that your daughters adore him. Presumably the other children did too (the other two, not the "secret" twins) and then he left. He didn't give up contact to spare them grief, I'd wager he just couldn't be arsed.

If he has already treated four children this way, there's no reason to think your daughters will be any different.

onefewernow Thu 07-Mar-13 18:10:07

OP what are the absolute facts?

That he will always cry and feel sorry for himself when he has behaved appallingly.

That his need to get comfort or whatever it is from an attentive woman will always come before his kids.

That he is a liar.

That he runs to another woman as soon as you have your eye off his ego with a baby on the way.

That he handles any uncomfortable feelings about himself with another joint.

I suspect he is a philanderer in nature, who sees other people's role in his life as making him feel good about himself. If they don't, he moves on, as though they never existed, even when he has created them himself.

I have a sister who was married to a man like this, with 4 kids and 2 previous marriages behind him. It took her 25 years to finally see the light, and in the end it has partly destroyed her. Needless to say, he has dumped a couple of the kids he had with her. Sees just one who is useful to him . And even recently she found out about another one, which he had hidden and denied.

onefewernow Thu 07-Mar-13 18:11:42

Ps keep thinking. You will notice more when you put your mind to it. Things like this act as a catalyst to rearrange the picture, and help you to reevaluate him in a whole new light.

lemonstartree Thu 07-Mar-13 18:33:06

you poor thing. What a horrible shock. Dont feel guilty and dont feel stupid - how could you have known ?

I agree, unfortunately, with other who point out that he has now abandoned 4 out of 6 children ( that you know about) - and what kind of person that makes him .

You sound strong, kind, intelligent and capable. Does he deserve you? I think not really.

Good luck

kinkyfuckery Thu 07-Mar-13 19:06:12

What a horrible situation for him to put you in.

OP are you scared that if you end your relationship he will do the same to your children?

AnyFucker Germany Thu 07-Mar-13 19:14:19

I think that's a foregone conclusion, isn't it ?

kinkyfuckery Thu 07-Mar-13 19:18:07

I just wondered if that was the only (or main) reason for being unsure what next step to take.

AnyFucker Germany Thu 07-Mar-13 19:20:20

I know, KF

not a reason to stay with him...a reason to run very, very far away

moondog Thu 07-Mar-13 19:50:51

'Oh yes, it's the woman's fault'

Whose fault is it then Dragon? Are women so ineffectual and weak willed that they are powerless to resist fuckwits? Is that what you are saying?

LynetteScavo England Thu 07-Mar-13 19:55:02

I too would be gutted.

I would be concerned if he could deny his two older children's existance like this, he could also pretend the DC you have together are non-existant.

I wouldn't have much respect for someone with such an attitude. sad

Snazzynewyear Thu 07-Mar-13 19:56:24

He will never, ever tell you the truth about anything if it is better for him not to. That is now inescapable. Carrying on with him means accepting that you will be lied to for the rest of your life, and so will your daughters. I think you all deserve a lot better than that.

clam Thu 07-Mar-13 20:19:28

In my experience, anyone who swears on their children's/mother's/dog's life about something, is always lying through their teeth.

AnyFucker Germany Thu 07-Mar-13 20:20:43

clam yup, with you on that one

it's very Kyle-esque to swear on someone's life...and those that do invariably fail the lie detector test

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 21:44:38

Kinkyfuckery I'm not scared that he'll do the same to my DDs. If he does I'd feel really sorry for them but justified that I'd made the right decision. My DDs are adored by me, my wonderful family and loyal friends. They are a complete joy. It would be OH's devastating loss.

Why am I unsure what step to take? Because I'm loyal to the hilt and I always want to think the best of people, especially those that are closest to me. Because the good times and love we shared first as a couple and then a family are clouding my judgement on this latest deceit and those that have gone before. Because when kids are involved shouldn't you put their needs first and if I send their Daddy away I need to be as sure as possible that I'm doing the right thing by them? And because I've gone into this relationship wanting to trust and there's still a fragment of it that he hasn't destroyed.

I originally posted on here to get some objective perspectives on a situation that I still can't believe has happened. Something2say, you're right, talking it through with strangers is helping. From the "get a grip OP" posts to the kind words. I need honesty, my god do I need honesty. smile

AnyFucker Germany Thu 07-Mar-13 21:46:10

You won't ever get it from your H though, unfortunately

Decide you can live like that, if you must, but it isn't a path to be recommended

CabbageLeaves Thu 07-Mar-13 21:50:25

You deserve more. Just that.

He's a con artist who knows how to pick soft hearted women who won't see through him. Stop being in denial. Harden that heart and find a good man. He isn't

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 22:00:51

Don't fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy. Cut your losses now because at this point you are never going to trust him again.

Your DDs will continue to have a rewarding relationship with him if he is willing to put in the time and effort. Unfortunately the likelihood of this is slim. But the downsides for your DDs of you not kicking him out for good are really genuinely bad - the relationship modelling alone, let alone the lying, the lack of trust, the lack of respect, the terrible atmosphere.

MsPavlichenko Thu 07-Mar-13 22:04:33

You won't be "sending their Daddy away". You'll be explaining to them, that you and their Daddy will no longer be living together, somehting that is the norm for countless other families.

It is interesting that you phrased it like that, and I suspect says a lot about your expectations of him. He may well love your children, but with all that you've told us, its hard to see how he can possibly be a good father

badinage Thu 07-Mar-13 22:08:54

The thing is, we can be supportive of someone who's in this situation, while pointing out that it's always a red flag about a bloke if he's already abandoned two kids. If someone had said this to the OP years ago, maybe she would have got out before having two kids with this tosser who's unfaithful to her and pisses money and time up the wall on weed and as it turns out, has lied throughout their married life and has abandoned 4 of his 6 kids.

It's relevant to the OP if we say it even after the event, because it reinforces to her that this bloke is no good and is definitely not worth staying with. And it reinforces it to lurkers too, because I've been on a lot of threads recently where women are making pisspoor excuses for partners who are absent fathers.

Of course his fecklessness is not the OP's fault, but women who tolerate men who are shit fathers to their children from earlier relationships do have some responsibility to bear when it goes belly-up for them too. If a man treats his exes and his children like shit, why on earth does the next woman think he'll treat them and their children any better? No one person can change a bad man that much.

OP, there's no positive spin on this at all. It's impossible to 'see the best' in someone who has behaved this way. There are simply no excuses or different slants on this.

This bloke is selfish to the core and only cares about his own needs. If you value your daughters' security, you will get out now before he has a chance to dump you all before he moves on to the next woman to impregnate.

If you stay, how on earth are you going to tell your daughters that they've got 4 half-siblings that their father has had nothing to do with? Don't you think they'll judge him and you for not paying for those children? Are you going to tell them the truth that you knew about 2 but not about 4? And what about his affair? That was only the one you know about. How do you know there aren't even more kids he's sired with women who thought he was a victim of nasty wives?

Snazzynewyear Thu 07-Mar-13 22:10:25

What is this fragment of trust you still have in him? He would lie to you about absolutely anything if it suited him. He would lie to your kids. He has already deceived them and made them fit in with his lies. I don't see how he can be trusted to do the best fo them. You're right that children's needs should be prioritised but unfortunately it looks like that will always be down to you. He hasn't done it for any of his other kids, has he?

asfarasitgoes Thu 07-Mar-13 22:23:13

Sometimes you start off with a little lie and then as time goes on you just get deeper and deeper until it becomes something that you can't back out of. It's a well known psychological phenomenon. I'm not sure it makes your OH a bad person as suggested by many on here. Seems a bit rough on your two DDs to deprive them of a father without giving OH a second chance?

CabbageLeaves Thu 07-Mar-13 22:24:18

A 4 and 1yr old will cope better than older DC if you part. Staying together until they are adults sounds a hugely unlikely prospect OP.

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 22:26:05

Do you not think I should do more digging before I tell him to leave? I am realising that he will lie to me about anything if it suits him. Badinage you make lucid and strong points. I will always live with the guilt of colluding in the abandonment of the kids I knew about by choosing to believe that he'd been wronged by his ex. By staying I would be colluding in his cover up of the twins too to my DDs. And yes, I will tell them the truth.

something2say Thu 07-Mar-13 22:26:45

I think you are all getting very mean to her now.

Oh, there goes her marriage, oh well, well Done, cheers and goodbye - onto the next thread!

Do you really think it is that easy to end a relationship??

Give her some time for the shock to wear off for gods sake!!!

FWIW I do agre with the thinking btw. We as women have to take our rosy sunglasses off but it is hard at times. The tendency to want things to remain the same is very strong.
Even if they can't.

Superloopy7 Thu 07-Mar-13 23:49:55

asfarasitgoes thanks for posting an alternative view. OH said he thought he'd told me early on in the relationship. Then when it became obvious that he hadn't, he felt it would be too damaging to let the cat out of the bag. He said when I asked him about the twins he panicked and lied. He said he panicked and lied when I confronted him with the texts and who the number belonged to. He said he panicked and lied when he denied being caught speeding but DD1 said the police had stopped the car and asked him to produce his docs which he never did leading to his licence being revoked. He said he panicked and lied when he had gone to pick weed up but told me he'd been talking to my BF's fiancée who was impressively also working in a hospital 28 miles away. He ignored a series of parking tickets and driving fines until we had bailiffs knocking at my door and I sorted it out by arranging payment plans...

The stock 'psychological' response is one thing, but to put yourself in the same situations that require cover up is what's also been rocking our relationship. He won't take responsibility for anything.

badinage Fri 08-Mar-13 00:08:22

I commend your honesty with us about all the things he's done over the years.

To pick up though on 'asfar's' post, this isn't just about lying and an untruth that got too big, bad though that is. The far greater offence is his utter failure to shoulder his parenting responsibilities to 4 kids. To this we must add all the additional acts of selfishness and dishonesty that he's shown towards the OP in their time together, including being unfaithful to her when she was at her most vulnerable. If all that doesn't make someone a bad person, what does? And remember, these are just the things known to the OP. I'm sure other people he's conned over the years could tell their own tales, plus there are probably other secrets while in this relationship that are still with-held.

I'd put his claim that he 'though he'd told you' about the twins on a par with his other lie that his family 'thought you knew' about them. It's a form of gaslighting, but the lies are so ridiculous that no-one of sound mind could believe them.

As if you'd forget that he had two other children and had never mentioned them all these years.

As if his family wouldn't have mentioned the twins in front of you, if they thought you knew of their existence.

How can he insult your intelligence in this way?

He does it because he knows that he can spin ever more ludicrous tales and because you want to stay in the relationship so badly and believe the best of him, he will be believed.

When someone gets away with terrible behaviour time and time again with no consequences, their behaviour only gets worse. And their respect for a partner diminishes with each lie that's believed.

badinage Fri 08-Mar-13 00:11:03

By the way, what more digging would change anything?

You've got a divorce lawyer's dreamcard of unreasonable behaviour already.

GregBishopsBottomBitch Fri 08-Mar-13 00:30:17

Loop Hes told so many lies now, if he was pinochio, his nose could wrap around the globe.

Hes so ridiculous, can you honestly say to yourself, this is the best i can get?, because i think your so much better than him.

People only lie to hide things, as hes obviously got more skeletons than a graveyard.

ElectricSheep Fri 08-Mar-13 00:58:39

The thing is, this man has let down his children in the absolute worst way a parent can. He's abandoned them. Not only that, he's denied their very existence.

Sadly OP, it is almost a certainty that he will let your DDs down.

All that money he spends on drugs? Was it the maintenance he should have paid to support and see his children by any chance?

Do you know OP that cannabis can lead to psychosis? Your husband might be one of those lucky enough not to be affected by cannabis in this way. But how will you feel if one of your DDs smokes it when she's older (afterall, 'it's fine, Dad does it')
and she gets a criminal record or much much worse it triggers a psychotic state.

You cannot stay with this man and continue to call yourself a decent mother. Tell him to go.

It is normal to still feel love towards him, but as soon as he has gone and you get some distance you will start to feel and see how he really is - rather than the person you thought he was.

CabbageLeaves Fri 08-Mar-13 07:29:52

As the poster something said earlier, it is hard to end a relationship but there are many relationships which are damn hard to be in as well. This sounds like one of them.

I left an abusive relationship which sounded just like your in many ways (different details but essentially a man you see as incapable rather than responsible?). The problem I had and you have is a sense of deserting a 'needy' person. I mothered him and knew he'd had a shit childhood so was very sympathetic and tolerant of the 'behaviour'. I also loved him and the man I had married was funny, kind and loving. He became grumpy, selfish, vindictive and irresponsible financially. Cannabis featured heavily here as did alcohol. I stayed because I wanted him to 'recover'. Wanted to heal him. Wanted my 'marriage' back, worried how he would cope without me. Accepting it had gone was very prolonged and hard for me.

What I wish someone had done for me is what is happening here. Some straight talking. No excusing his behaviour, no 'you try harder' and it will work.

I left and it was like a weight lifted off my shoulders. Finances improved, (no reckless spender) and the biggest most important thing...my DD calmed down and became less tense and more peaceful. She's happy. My older two suffered because ...well because they were older so their ability to understand and be affected was more. I also think they'd suffered our tense relationship for too long. I bitterly regret staying which is why I come on these threads and hope desperately that another woman will see the light.

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 07:37:40

"deprive your children of a father"

such ridiculously emotive language could only come from someone with a very suspect agenda

I am sorry to see you grab onto that particular straw, OP

stop listening to the messages that you are nothing without a man (any man...even a useless one like this), and that your DD's will suffer if you finally decide you and they are worth more than this deceitful tosser

your daughters don't need to see you swallowing such ridiculous lies like some sort of Stepford wife

"he thought he told me"...how did you keep a straight face with that one ? confused

aufaniae Fri 08-Mar-13 08:19:50

"Because I'm loyal to the hilt and I always want to think the best of people" it will do you well to recognise that this is a very dangerous trait in yourself. I am also very loyal and want to see the best in people. I used to think it was a positive trait. Now I see it as a double edged sword, as being like this leaves you very vulnerable to manipulation by people who do not have the same high standards in how they treat others.

Some people in this world are manipulative, selfish, damaging individuals who don't know how to do the right thing. People like you and I gloss over the wrongs they do to others (including yourself)!by being too fucking understanding. I have (mostly) got over being like this after coming up against one particular individual (my ex) who was very damaging indeed to me. I had to pull the wool off my eyes to survive.

I realised I had a different set of standards for people who made excuses for themselves for the way they treated others while maintaining a high set of standards for myself and people I considered together and competent. Your "wrong side of the tracks" comment rang bells here (not that he had a rough upbringing, but that you may give him more slack because of it).

I've had to learn that actually people who aren't able or willing to treat others with the respect it's obvious they should be given, and damaging and dangerous people who have no place in my life.

I have become more cynical and less trusting, but I am a better - and safer - person because of it. When I allowed my impulse to see the best in others to run unchecked, I was (I can now see) incredibly naive and a danger to myself and those close to me by letting damaging people into my life.

Whocansay Fri 08-Mar-13 08:27:12

He 'panics and lies' a lot, doesn't he? It seems to be his default position when anything goes wrong. You want to put up with that forever?

His relationship with his children is neither your fault nor your responsibility. It's his, and he couldn't be bothered.

I'm not sure what you expect to find with more digging. Possibly more secrets, but at this stage does it matter? He's made it clear what kind of man he is. I appreciate that saying LTB is far easier said than done, however.

onefewernow Fri 08-Mar-13 10:42:49

^ I am realising that he will lie to me about anything if it suits him.^

Sadly that is true.

He also seems to do anything which suits him, eg kids, drugs, sitting in his den whilst you cope on his behalf.

Everyone has a right to more than this.

mama04 Fri 08-Mar-13 13:04:03

I recently found out I have 4 older siblings confused tbh I really resent my M&D for never telling me and have decided that if they lied to me all my life then I don't want anything to do with them anymore, I feel I've missed out on so much (I was raised as an Oc) don't let him do this to ur Dds hmm

Good luck and big hugs xxx

I second the danger in being both loyal and seeing the best in people. I am the same, it has burned me more times than I care to remember. It means manipulative people have taken advantage of me, and I have wasted emotion and hurt myself believing more of people than they are.

There's also a bit of a rescuer in me. Not everyone can be saved. It's not my job to try. Are you trying to save him? People told you he was bad, you ploughed on seeing the best side and saving him from himself. It's a dangerous way to be. You risk hurting no one but yourself.

Eurostar Fri 08-Mar-13 13:33:17

Excellent post above from aufaniae

OP, you are in what might be called a codependent relationship with an addict. You might want to try and get yourself some counselling or attend 12 step groups with people who have freed themselves from this.

Take your time to plan your exit and come to terms with this, you need to be prepared that he will give you no financial support and lose interest in DDs as soon as he has found the next person to convince that the evil ex won't let him near his children I'm afraid. I think I understood that he is a plumber so I presume self-employed? One of the professions most chased and most notorious for being able to wangle out of CSA demands.

I'm not sure if I understood correctly that he was caught speeding with DD in the car? You have to think really seriously about what to do if this is the case and you split because he can't be trusted to have them. You may even need to report his criminal activity (easy to forget that possession of weed is a crime, if only a minor one these days) to the police to protect you and the DDs. Very sorry for you that it has come to this, as you say, you were just trying to be loyal, I'm afraid your loyalty has been misplaced.

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 15:04:45

Just a couple of things about this thread that concern me. Whilst not condoning, nor supporting, the OP's OH, some comments here are quite sinister.
For example, how did 'he was texting somebody' morph into 'he's been unfaithful' or 'he's cheated before'?
Everybody appears so eager to have the OH hung, drawn and quartered without the full facts. The OP herself said she knows very little of what actually happened.
I once worked with a chap who, after many years of being on the receiving end of a violent relationship, not only via his OH but her family too, garnered enough courage to leave. His ex continued the abuse, mentally this time, by doing all she could to prevent him access to his child. Missed visits, moving house, changing phone numbers, even threats of more violence. Eventually he gave up. Every ounce of fight slowly but surely eaten away. Is he also a disgraceful father for not seeing his child grow up?
As I said, without all the facts, anything can seem a million times worse than the reality of a situation.

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 15:11:59

Are you calling op a liar, BS ?

Come right out and say it if you think that is the case

What has your unfortunate example got to do with this woman ?

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 15:24:43

Never called anyone a liar. I simply said that sometimes things happen for reasons beyond your control.

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 15:29:14

All this stuff has been completely IN this man's control

"control" being the operative word

You are excusing the inexcusable

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 15:38:40

How, and where, did I excuse him?
I said the OP herself doesn't know the reasons why OH is/was not in touch with eldest sons. Therefore how can she, let alone anybody else, make judgements on something you know little about.

badinage Fri 08-Mar-13 15:39:24

I hate the way these men who leave their children with allegedly violent women and their families, get off scot free and even get sympathy for abandoning their kids to that hell. Bollocks to that. No woman would get sympathy for leaving her children with a violent man in a violent extended family, or for not trying her damndest to uphold her children's rights to see her by using the law if necessary.

Also, this bloke was sending another woman 700 texts in a 4 week period while his wife was pregnant. When confronted, he lied that the calls were to an internet forum rather than the specific woman it turned out to be. Anyone who has a different interpretation of that other than infidelity needs to check their grip on reality.

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 15:48:20

Allegedly violent?

She stabbed him once. Broke his cheekbone, jaw and fingers. Dislocated his eye socket. Numerous other cuts, bruises, beatings and threats.

These men eh.

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 15:50:36

Are you sure BS?

It could just be one of those things that are out of one's control.......

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 15:54:16

As sure as being stood next to him daily for 5 years. She was from a 'big' family. He never stood a chance. Went from happy, confident and outgoing to a reclusive wreck of a man, frightened of his own shadow.

CheerfulYank Fri 08-Mar-13 15:57:57

But why would you leave your child with someone capable of stabbing someone?

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 16:05:47

From what I know she was only ever violent towards him. Picture perfect from the outside. Violent and abusive spouse behind closed doors. He never told anyone until one day he just broke down in work and the lot tumbled out. Despite all telling him to leave it was another 18 months before he did.

Snazzynewyear Fri 08-Mar-13 16:09:44

So in relation to the OP's husbandm what about the second group of children he hasn't kept in touch with, the ones the OP did know about? Do we think that this man has been unfortunate enough to be in two relationships with violent and abusive women who then keep him separated from his kids? It's always possible, but a) statistically it's more likely that he has just been a run-of-the-mill deadbeat dad, and b) he has not said to the OP that this is the case, which surely if it was, he would say so.

There's a pattern of behaviour here that makes some things seem more likely than others, is what most posters are saying.

Op, you'd be a fool to stand by him. He left his children with a violent partner, and refused to have anything to do with these kids? You've got to be kidding. And as far as you know, he has now 6 kids? He sits out in the den smoking dope? He must have thanked his lucky star the day you walked into his life....

hmm

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 16:20:54

In response to snazzy, it is well documented how abused partners often end up in other abusive relationships. There is also evidence to suggest that almost as many men as women are the victims in abusive relationships and are less likely to report it.

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 16:35:56

Your agenda is showing, BS

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 16:37:26

No agenda.

badinage Fri 08-Mar-13 16:51:59

Look, everyone whether man or woman should get out of a violent or abusive relationship.

They should get out of unhappy ones too.

But parenthood isn't something anyone has the right to abandon.

Few mothers would leave children in the sole care of someone who has been violent to anyone because statistically it's rare for a violent person to confine their activities just towards a partner. Even if that was considered a low risk, there is just no excuse to opt out of children's lives however difficult a co-parent might be to preserving contact. That's why family law exists. It's different if in later years a parent is able to prove that he or she went to court to try to uphold the children's parental rights, but an ex disobeyed contact orders or flew under the radar. Children are however less than impressed with absent parents who didn't even try to see them and just gave up.

Parenthood is not a disposable option - and neither is paying for children.

Let's not forget that the bloke we're on the thread to discuss hasn't just opted out of four kids' lives, he hasn't paid a bean for any of them either.

There are absolutely no excuses for that.

Owllady Fri 08-Mar-13 17:03:53

I know of someone who had no contact with his child because the mother was violent to him - and I do actually believe it as she has done it to other people since. I don't think I will ever understand why that meant he couldn't have contact with his child though, even if he was scared/thought it would be disruptive to the child/whatever because surely you would want to be more involved not less. He did pay though, but I think that is besides the point

badinage Fri 08-Mar-13 17:18:04

Yes, you would want to be more involved not less, if the resident parent had form for violence and abuse. I agree entirely.

But society and new partners excuse fathers for doing this far more than they would mothers, when we should hold parents of both sexes to account.

chucklemummy Fri 08-Mar-13 18:43:14

Pure OP didn't say he left the kids with a violent partner. You're being confused by BS story. Plus she only knew about 2 kids.Can OP carry on even if her OH is telling the truth about both previous relationships and the zero contact reasons he gave her when he's lied to her face on so many occasions not least of all over the existence of 25 year old twins?

CheerfulYank Fri 08-Mar-13 18:47:11

A nine year old boy here in the States was just murdered by his father, who up until that time had only been abusive toward the boy's mother.

If you will cross that line and hurt someone(out of anything other than self defense), you are capable of doing it again and I'd think very poorly on anyone, man or woman, who left their children in that situation.

ElectricSheep Fri 08-Mar-13 19:52:00

There is also evidence to suggest that almost as many men as women are the victims in abusive relationships

Buffalosoldier could you link to that evidence please?

I was under the impression that - despite the Coronation St storyline at the moment - male victims of domestic abuse are very rare. In contrast, 2 women are murdered each week by their male partners.

A helpline for male victims of domestic abuse was set up in my region some years ago (taking funding from the Refuge). It closed down after 2 years because they only received 3 genuine calls in that time, the rest were hoax. The Refuge always has a waiting list.

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 20:01:29

Buffalo is a visitor from another ranty website, methinks

Wotaboutthemenz.com is it's name

Snazzynewyear Fri 08-Mar-13 20:08:08

Yes please, Buffalo, 'evidence suggests...' is not really enough to convince me in itself. Plus you are suggesting a possibility for the OP's situation based on what happened to your friend. There is no evidence so far that this is the case for the OP's husband.

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 20:24:30

Try google search. Plenty of evidence to choose from.

moondog Fri 08-Mar-13 20:26:18

Google search????
hmm

Snazzynewyear Fri 08-Mar-13 20:27:02

Er, no, Buffalo - I think you're getting convinced about who is here to convince who. You came here with a point to make and several of us have asked you to back it up with links. If you are as knowledgeable as you represent yourself to be on this matter, that shouldn't be hard for you.

CheerfulYank Fri 08-Mar-13 20:34:49

I have a friend with a four month old DD whose father has never seen her. He tells everyone that my friend is a crazy ranting psychobitch who won't let him near her, is dangerous, etc. (It's all untrue, he just CBA).

And everyone seems to accept this bullshit from him! There is ^no way I'd leave my children with an unstable person without putting up one hell of a fight. I'd want as much access as possible to make sure they were safe and knew they could depend on me.

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs Fri 08-Mar-13 20:44:10

OP, I can sympathise a little with how you feel. When I met DH I categorically stated that I would never have a relationship with a man who had children, because either he would always put his children first, and I would get frustrated, OR he wouldn't, which would make him a rubbish dad and not for me. DH said nothing, but I found out a couple of months later, through his own slip-up, that he had a daughter. He lied again, said he had only just found out. I found evidence that he was lying, that he had lived with his daughter's mum for 2 years, and was still regularly visiting his daughter, a daughter he had kept a secret from me.

I was raging. Not only because of his deceit (like your OH, his excuse was that he knew I would dump him, and he thought he would enjoy it while it lasted)but because he thought he was cleverer than me- clever enough to deceive me- stupid delusional git!

I let him know in no uncertain terms that he was dumped. I was very angry and needed space. I also realised he had become important to me, but there was no way I could just accept it and carry on. I took a couple of weeks while I digested what it meant, what it would mean. Meanwhile, he called me several times a day.

I took him back, but I made it crystal clear that he was not smart enough to lie to me and have me never find out. He knows that I will ALWAYS catch him out, there is no point in trying to lie to me. I accepted that his dd would be part of our lives, with all that entailed.

Sadly that's not really what happened. THings went bad between him and his ex, unpleasantries were exchanged. The CSA got involved (which actually ended up with him paying less than he had been) and he discovered his dd was calling his ex's new partner "dad". We live a fair bit away, and DH was away a lot, sometimes for long periods, so regular contact was impossible, and things got worse when his mum (who had always been part of his dd's life) got a nasty letter telling her to stay away. DH decided to back off (a decision I didn't support, but which I believe he genuinely thought was "for the best") and we haven't seen his dd in years.

We now have 3 dc and have been married 10 years. Think it's a bit unfair to say that every man who has "abandoned" a child will do the same again. DH is older, wiser and in a relationship of his choosing, rather than one he felt shoe-horned into. We recently got in touch with his dd via FB, as CSA payments were stopping, and he felt sad. it is early days but they are e-mailing and hopefully things can improve from here (I had urged him to try to contact her for years, but he refused, although I know he always cared about her).

It's obviously harder for you, OP, as there are children involved, but I think the best thing I did was give myself a bit of space to sort out how I felt and what I wanted to do, what it all meant. I'm not exonerating your OH (smoking pot doesn't seem like a particularly mature way of handling things) but his treatment of these twins doesn't necessarily mean he will do exactly the same to you and your children, although of course it is a possibility. I think you should ask him to leave for a while until you sort out what YOU want, without him in the background. Good luck

buffalosoldier Fri 08-Mar-13 20:51:52

http://www.ncdv.org.uk/index.html

hope that works. (I'm on my mobile and at work)

AnyFucker Germany Fri 08-Mar-13 20:55:53

BS, why don't you start a new thread to put your dubious point across ?

Hijacking this woman's thread is a shitty thing to do

DameFanny Fri 08-Mar-13 21:03:20

To badly misquote Oscar Wilde, 'to lose contact with one set of children is unfortunate, to lose contact with two sets is pure cuntery'

GregBishopsBottomBitch Fri 08-Mar-13 21:10:58

'to lose contact with one set of children is unfortunate, to lose contact with two sets is pure cuntery'

He had a point.

OP you are in a horrible situation but I think that one thing you need to do is tell your Dds the truth about the twins now. Don't let them ever think that you too hid the situation from them. Don't overthink this by worrying about any consequences, just tell them, otherwise you are being sucked in and are starting to keep your partner's secrets for him too.

ElectricSheep Fri 08-Mar-13 22:32:37

BUffalo Some stats for you from the Crown Prosecution Service. The only stats I can find for male victims are from a lobby group, Parity. They are asserted but not supported with evidence. CPS are obviously drawing their stats from police and court figures.

I will post no more about this here, other than to say if a man stops seeing his children because the other parent is abusive he should be more determined than ever to get access/custody of his children through the court. For me, it would be a very powerful reason to continue contact, not an excuse to stop it. The children's lives might depend on the non-abusive parent's determination.

www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/domestic_violence_-_the_facts_the_issues_the_future/

Nearly 1 million women experience at least one incident of domestic abuse each year (2009/10 British Crime Survey data:http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1210.pdf as reported in latest cross-government VAWG strategy www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/crime/call-end-violence-women-girls/vawg-paper?view=Binary)
At least 750,000 children a year witness domestic violence (DoH, (2002) Women's Mental Health : Into the Mainstream, accessed at: webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/Closedconsultations/DH_4075478 p.16)
Two women are killed each week by their partner or ex-partner (Womens Aid (March 2011) accessed at: www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1280)
54 per cent of women victims of serious sexual assault were assaulted by their partner or ex-partner (Stern, (2010) The Stern Review p.9 accessed at www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Stern_Review_of_Rape_Reporting_1FINAL.pdf )
Victims of domestic violence are more likely to experience repeat victimisation than victims of any other types of crime(British Crime Survey Reports)
76 per cent of all DV incidents are repeat (Flatley, Kershaw, Smith, Chaplin and Moon (July 2010) BCS - Crime in England and Wales 2009/10 , Home Office, accessed at rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1210.pdf p24)
Women experience an average of 35 incidents of domestic violence before reporting an incident to the police (Yearnshaw 1997, accessed at safer.sthelens.gov.uk/SITEMANV2/publications/40/0901316LeafletsforDVVictims_3.pdf)
19 per cent of women have experienced stalking since the age of 16 (Smith (Ed.), Coleman, Eder and Hall (January 2011) Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10 Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10, Home Office accessed at rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs11/hosb0111.pdf)
These statistics are shocking and demonstrate that women are still more at risk of violent crime at home than anywhere else.

badinage Sat 09-Mar-13 02:09:55

Yet again I'll say that no-one would 'understand' a mother paying less than hitherto because of the CSA's involvement, choosing to live 'a fair bit away' from her children and using travel with work as an excuse for not trying to see her children.

No more than we should either.

But somehow these men get away with it and their new partners make excuses for it, or implicitly support those actions by staying with them and creating new families.

If you wouldn't do the same as a mother and would criticise a woman who did, don't have different standards for fathers.

izzyizin Sat 09-Mar-13 03:59:54

because I've gone into this relationship wanting to trust and there's still a fragment of it that he hasn't destroyed

You must have a might powerful magnifying glass if you can still see a fragment of any trust you placed in him which he hasn't trampled into the dirt.

I suggest you rewind the tape back to your original assertion that I feel this deceit is the final straw because it is, isn't it?

All by himself he's bought about the demise of his relationship with you, just as he's done with the other unfortunate women he's fathered dc by, and just as he will with any further misguided females of childbearing age who are taken in by his dubious charms.

middleeasternpromise Sat 09-Mar-13 04:38:01

OP it does sound as though lying comes naturally to this man and given his mother is so good at covering for him it might be a family trait. Thats a lot of de-programing you are going to have to do to turn him around. I feel very sorry for the situation you are in and dont think there is a quick solution. The whole 'just dump him' approach is all well and good if you have been going out a few months but when youve been with some for years and have 2 kids it takes much more than that to detangle the whole sorry mess and manage the fall out. I feel very sorry that theres now two more little children whose lives have been affected by this irresponsible dishonesty on his part. Aside from all the obvious problems what really comes across is that this man doesnt take any responsibility for his previous actions. Its all about everyone else and theres no evidence of learning so far. I wonder did the last woman know about the twins? was it dishonesty that killed that relationship off too? Its very easy for people to only tell you the end game as justification for their actions - 'the ex cut me off and wouldnt let me see them' but its rarely the whole picture is it. He sounds like he deceives himself first and then everyone else but cant see it as he believes his own crap.

How big is the rest of the family and what do they have to say about standing back and letting this lying go on? I hope you manage to navigate a way through this for you and your children. If you have good friends and family that will be an important support. I dont think you have to rush but I do think you have be clear for yourself what your decision making is.

Dozer Sat 09-Mar-13 10:13:09

So are you going to LTB? What more reason do you need, he is clearly a tosser of the highest order.

Superloopy7 Sat 09-Mar-13 10:34:08

Thanks for all the constructive comments and to those who have told me about their similar situations.

I did ask OH to leave yesterday. I told him he'd given me no choice. "I suppose not" was his only reply followed by tears and moping. I' m still going through the mill of emotion but like cabbageleaves said I did feel like a weight had been lifted. Moping was followed by paying more attention to the DDs and I still think he thinks I'll get over my anger.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Mar-13 10:45:11

Has he actually left? So sorry you have to deal with this but I don't see what else you can do, it is such a shocking thing to process.

Superloopy7 Sat 09-Mar-13 12:27:02

He hasn't gone. Tiptoeing around while I try and hold myself together and act normal. Says he's sorry it's come to this. I feel so low.

AnyFucker Germany Sat 09-Mar-13 12:52:41

he won't go.

he will stick around snotting and crying and paying faux attention to his current children until you relent.

then some time later, at a time of his6 choice, he will discard you and his ^current family and start another aone with someone else

it's what he does

AnyFucker Germany Sat 09-Mar-13 12:53:17

italics fail there, but I think the gist is clear....just like his behaviour

badinage Sat 09-Mar-13 13:26:29

If you've told him to leave and he hasn't done anything about it or made any moves to do so, you're probably right that he thinks this will all blow over if he looks contrite enough and play-acts father-of-the-year.

One of the issues that I don't think has been raised on what's a long thread is that if you decided to stay with him, I'm assuming that a condition would be that he does right by his four other children. That means that the money available to you as a family will dwindle to cope with the extra money rightfully going to those kids. Whereas if you got out now, your only personal responsibility would be to secure enough money for your own children and it would be for him and his conscience whether he paid for the other four children.

I think you need a good lawyer though to get some advice. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that once he realises you mean business, he'll try to avoid paying as much for your daughters 'because I've got 4 other children', staging a belated but entirely fake show of conscience that a proportion of his future earnings and current assets ought to go to them now.

AnyFucker Germany Sat 09-Mar-13 13:28:52

very good point, badinage

I imagine he will use the previous 4 children he abandoned as currency if things get difficult for him

OP...make him leave. Stop trying to act "normal". Why would you do that ?

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Mar-13 13:42:44

Tell him to leave and stop acting normally.

Superloopy7 Sat 09-Mar-13 15:02:08

I mean acting like a normal mum to my two DDs. We're also not married and I'm the main wage earner. The mortgage is in my name he doesn't even have one bank account (never mind one for each of his kids).

I've told him twice now to leave.

Earlybird Sat 09-Mar-13 15:06:35

Not that it is your problem - but if he left, where would he go? Could his Mum take him in?

Would it help get things moving if you asked him to move out temporarily so you could get your head straight?

badinage Sat 09-Mar-13 15:17:28

You're not married?

Does he have parental responsibility for your DDs?

Whose names are on the house deeds?

Reality Sat 09-Mar-13 15:18:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

izzyizin Sat 09-Mar-13 16:52:36

You've told him to leave twice so, by my reckoning, that's 2 strikes and now he's out.

If he's too blinded by tears to pack sufficient items for the remainder of the weekend pending collection of the rest, I suggest you load up a bin bag, knot and tie it to a stick, and send him on his way with encouragement from the police, if necessary.

The shock of your boot up his arse decisiveness may result in him experiencing an epiphanybut, if not, you'll be relieved of the onerous burden of having a manchild to dance attendance on care for.

AnyFucker Germany Sat 09-Mar-13 17:34:27

Get him out

What are you waiting for

You don't want him there. He has no claim to be there. If he won't leave, call the police.

You are a normal mum. But if you let this dickhead stay, that comes under question, sorry.

And you are letting him. Unless you are scared he will use violence against you, in which case that is an entirely different matter.

moondog Sat 09-Mar-13 17:37:15

So you pay most of the bills too?
Streuth.....
What did you ever see in this bloke?
Does he work and/or pay his way (at least in this particular family set up)?

ElectricSheep Sat 09-Mar-13 19:53:07

He sounds like a total waste of space tbh. I would not tolerate all of this crap from him as well as enabling his drug addiction. I'm sorry but I think if you let him stay then you are as bad as each other. FFS I feel very sorry for your DDs having a father like this - what an example for them sad

Superloopy7 Sat 09-Mar-13 22:53:36

Ok. Posts have gone from supportive to insulting and a bit agitated. Thanks to all the support over the last week. You are immense. OP signing off. thanks

AnyFucker Germany Sun 10-Mar-13 00:35:50

You are staying with him then sad

Good luck, you will need it

izzyizin Sun 10-Mar-13 01:34:38

Since when has it been insulting to tell someone what they don't want to hear? hmm

You seem to have conveniently forgotten you were the one who referred to this latest in his long history of lies and deceit as being 'the final straw' and said you'd told him to leave, by which even a casual reader would assume that, having wrung every last ounce of sympathy for your situation over the past week, you had turned your attention to seeking confirmation you were within your rights to tell the duplicitous cocklodger to get his sorry arse out of your home.

FWIW, the only 'agitation' that's apparent here are the pom-poms which were shaken by way of further support for your stated intention, albeit I suspect those who have taken the time to respond to your thread may feel 'a bit' agitated irritated by the manner in which you've chosen to insult their intelligence.

In the interests of conserving my time and energy for more worthy causes, when you post again after he's upped sticks for a similarly deluded ow I would be obliged if you would make it clear that you don't intend to take on board any advice and are merely looking for affirmation that whatever you've already made up your mind to do is the appropriate course of action.

badinage Sun 10-Mar-13 02:26:37

I expect it's a bit more nuanced than this.

I think when someone gets a life shock that forces them to confront what they've been avoiding, about themselves as much as the other person, it kick-starts a process rather than a big bang.

Hopefully this thread has started that process. Certainly, it's outlined quite starkly for the OP what her future choices will say about her and her character. But it may also have forced her to confront things about her past decisions that she's preferred to see as being motivated by positives such as wanting to believe the best of people, and not selfishness.

It's very hard to confront things about ourselves that we don't like and when that's combined with having to face the upheaval of the end of a relationship and life as you know it, it's not surprising if old self-defence mechanisms kick in to cope with the enormity of the situation.

I hope you feel you can come back OP when you're a bit further along this process.

izzyizin Sun 10-Mar-13 06:28:45

There's no question that you're right about the 'nuances', badinage, and the OP is most probably conflicted by considerations which she's not made reference to here.

Nevertheless, the manner in which she has abandoned her thread would suggest that unless she deals with her oh's lamentable lack of integrity in a straightforward manner, she'll be in danger of of losing hers.

CabbageLeaves Sun 10-Mar-13 07:38:11

I feel sorry for OP. When ground down, so that this level of abuse becomes normalised it can be very hard when your perspective re shifts. When the realisation of your collusion (unwitting) tumbles down on you it's hard to deal with. Sometimes it's easier to retreat.

What I think she needs is some support in with the firm words.

I too get frustrated on these threads because women very clearly outline an awful situation, then backtrack. You want to desperately help them but like an alcoholic only that person can make that break.

I'd never facilitate by suggesting this is ok, yes stay... But I hope I'd see that personal confidence needs boosting so that OP realises she can do it

something2say Sun 10-Mar-13 09:39:35

I still think she will make him leave. It's just when he will go that is yet to be seen.

It's all well and good for us to say to her to get him out this second or call the police, but that's someone else's home we are talking about and things seldom move that quickly.

Good luck op if you are still reading. I think you wised up very appropriately, and washed that rosy tint off, and hopefully time will sort you out with a decent man.

Meanwhile, like a lot of us, take time to ask about your own role in this. Xxx

moondog Sun 10-Mar-13 09:41:35

Beautifully put Izzy.

something2say Sun 10-Mar-13 09:49:44

Izzy can I ask you a as? Hijack alert, sorry.

Am I right to say that you have several male partners who you see from time to time, have a great time with each but live alone?

Is this because of the way many men are?

Sometimes I think that women are coming out from under and we are not economically doomed to stay with a loser like we used to have to do. Now we can and do leave, and live alone, and do it our way etc.

But don't you think this is a sad indictment on men? And do you think this is a middle step on the way and hopefully mothers are bringing up decent little boys now, and me themselves are realising that they don't get to act the way they might like to and stay with decent women.... I hope it goes that way. I think it is a shame that so many of us may miss out on sharing our lives. Not that having a man is the be all and end all of course, but it is part of life in my mind...

Xales Sun 10-Mar-13 10:00:43

I have been thinking about this.

When my step father died we were told that none of his children from his previous marriages were to come to the funeral.

This was done to protect the image he had cultivated in his last few years as a decent man.

This didn't bother me as I remember him as a vile abusive in every way you can imagine bastard.

My sister (his actual daughter from his second family) was devastated to be excluded. He wasn't abusive to her. Apart from the fact she wasn't even allowed to be acknowledged as his child even when he was buried.

I have no idea if his children from his first marriage were even told he was dead as most of them had nothing to do with him for 20+ years.

His image was more important than any of his children. His true colours showed even in his death. No idea what shit he spun his last wife clearly every single on of his children and step children were vile human beings he had to suffer with over his life...

teacherandguideleader Sun 10-Mar-13 10:08:23

An ex of mine 'hid' the fact he had two children. He told me about the first a couple of months into the relationship - but at the time managed to convince myself that he just hadn't wanted to scare me off.

A year later he said 'I told you about my daughter didn't I?' - I thought that was odd as she lived abroad with her mum and I had taken him to the airport to go visit her. I had been starting to feel uneasy about the situation as originally he told me he had never lived with his daughter, but the story kept changing slightly until it was wildly different from the original.

Anyway, it turned out he had another daughter who was a teenager. He was a teen when she was born. He was off to the army and his gf told him she was pregnant - he hadn't believed her and had assumed it was a lie to get him to stay. He told me he had never met her but was going to meet her now. I believed him. One night he called her ahead of meeting and I overheard him saying how much she must have changed as it had been years since he had seen her.

Trust had then gone out of our relationship as I didn't believe a word he said. Worse though, I couldn't be with a man who would deny his children.

ElectricSheep Sun 10-Mar-13 11:18:51

Apologies OP, I certainly don't want to upset you.

But please let me remind you of your very own point in one of your earlier posts:

The stock 'psychological' response is one thing, but to put yourself in the same situations that require cover up is what's also been rocking our relationship. He won't take responsibility for anything.

Don't allow his spineless, lowlife ways to infect your standards OP.

AnyFucker Germany Sun 10-Mar-13 11:20:47

And this is why I (as gracefully as I can, through gritted teeth) withdraw from these threads when it is clear OP is rationalising and finding any way she can to stay in the same awful situation.

It's the children I feel sorry for..OP is a grown woman able to make her choices. Children are forced to live with the bad decisions of their parents.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 10-Mar-13 11:44:27

Wow. Just Wow. I didn't know that in return for Support and advice the OP has to LTB within a timescale.shock

This isn't Eastenders. The OP and her family are real people going through a real difficult period. As this is her life and not simply words typed on a keyboard are any of you surprised that practicalities and possibly second thoughts are getting in the way of whoever's deadline said OP's DP had to be gone by this Saturday. The fact that she is now being given grief for not doing what you say when you say it is shock.

I'm glad she started the thread and I think that it was very helpful, but I totally get why she left it when she did.

AnyFucker Germany Sun 10-Mar-13 11:48:06

OP isn't being given grief. That would only be the case if she couldn't come back, even with the same problem. And MN has proved, time and time again, that support is not conditional.

But respondents have to protect their own time to a certain extent, because that ole saying "you can take a horse to water..." is applicable here, as in so many of these situations. It's up to the OP what next step she takes, if any.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 10-Mar-13 12:04:59

AF, I think the OP has enough on her RL plate without worrying about the time investment of the posters on this thread. She has had a massive shock, has gathered her strength and told her DP to leave and is doing her best for her DCs. It's hardly a surprise if she needs to breathe, think and build up enough energy to actually remove him from the home.

izzyizin Sun 10-Mar-13 12:39:23

Even though it may be her intention or hope that any separation will be temporary, it's precisely because, entirely of her own accord, the OP has 'told her DP to leave' that she needs to make good on her words, Dione.

To do anything less will not only give him the message that all he has to do is squeeze out a few crocodile tears cry to have her overlook his lack of respect for her and the family they have created, it will also serve to compromise the OP's integrity if she fails to ensure that her word is as good as her bond.

With regard to your reference to Eastenders, it may have escaped your attention that some posts on this board fall into the category of 'you couldn't make it up' and it can be the case that art imitates life.

izzyizin Sun 10-Mar-13 13:46:21

On reflection, Dione, I doubt the 'shock' you refer to is quite as 'massive' as you may consider it to be as, during the course of her relationship with her dp, the OP has had extensive experience of his habitual lies.

AnyFucker Germany Sun 10-Mar-13 14:57:31

Dione, I didn't say that OP should be concerned with her respondent's time constraints, I said that it was their own responsibility

riskit4abiskit Sun 10-Mar-13 19:48:11

OP, if you're still reading...so sorry you have to go through this. Take one day at a time, you can do it!

even if all you do is phone citizen's advice or a helpline about benefits... its all a step in the right direction.

keep strong for the children xx

mama04 Mon 11-Mar-13 12:44:22

Op first of all thanks and (((((HUGS))))) hope u & kids are ok?

You may have already kicked his sorry butt to the kerb (what most of us would've done... last week!) or you may have forgiven him, whatever you decided is not our business but eventually he WILL hurt you again, you know this, it's why you posted the thread?
Anyway just wishing you well and hoping u r taking care xxxx

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