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Why are so many men so selfish and entitled in bed?

(194 Posts)
Frizzbonce Thu 28-Feb-13 12:28:49

I don't mean rape or assault or any kind of sex where abuse is involved.

What I mean is the kind of really rubbish sex where you lie there afterwards feeling twitchy and resentful I've been thinking back over all the bad sex I've had. Sadly a lot of it was because I didn't think I was entitled to expect good sex and even when I did start understanding what I wanted and tried to gently encourage, I still encountered men who would

Go straight from a brief tongue jab to nipple twiddle followed by a quick check down there to see if I was 'ready'.
Twiddle my nips in bored fashion as though trying to locate Latvian Radio
Fiddle with my ladyparts in manner of Doing Me a Favour or trying to remove a stain from blazer

The absolute worst sex ever was when I was briefly dating a doctor. I should have guessed at his manners when he wandered out of the restaurant and peed up against the side of the wall while howling like a wolf. I was only twenty - that's my excuse. He also possessed an extensive collection of 'video nasties' and in his bedroom was a very well thumbed copy of the Marquis de Sade's Forth Days of Sodom. There was no foreplay and he kept his socks on. It really hurt me because I wasn't ready at all and I asked him to stop. He said: 'Are you a virgin - is that why you're so dry?' Something snapped and I got out of bed got dressed and went home.

Now I've been with DP for several years and I could tell he was going to be fabulous from the moment we kissed and he was and he still is. It's because my pleasure is his pleasure too. It's really not that difficult. Like women and take some time to turn them on. Why, with all the information out there are some men still so entitled and selfish in bed?

flurp Thu 28-Feb-13 12:54:59

That doctor sounds vile!!
My DP is brilliant too but I have had my fair share of horror stories in the past (like the one who quite literally did press ups on me with his eyes tightly shut and if I made a noise he said "shhh!").
I have come to the conclusion that men are like this out of laziness or ignorance (or both)
I have never seen the point of faking it but so many women do and I think this adds to the problem that these useless men think that they are great in bed because "XXX liked it"

meditrina Thu 28-Feb-13 13:04:58

"peed up against the side of the wall while howling like a wolf" shock grin

More seriously, it sounds like a problem of the absence of basic kindness and consideration. Add to that insecurity (of youth, for first encounters, or of wider nerves if older) overlaid with ever more pervasive laddishness, and it's a murky picture.

Early training in consideration and empathy in every part of life and messages which counterbalance the laddishness (and misogyny) of sectors of the media might help. And also teaching girls to demand better.

Frizzbonce Thu 28-Feb-13 13:16:08

flurp 'The one who quite literally did press ups on me with his eyes tightly shut and if I made a noise he said "shhh!" shock

Wise words meditrina "Early training in consideration and empathy in every part of life and messages which counterbalance the laddishness (and misogyny) of sectors of the media might help. And also teaching girls to demand better."

Yes! Demand better. But I still think we teach girls about sex in terms of 'being careful' and protecting themselves and not enough about the pleasure of sex, that masturbation is normal etc. I mean we live in a culture where menstrual blood is blue in ads and feminine hygeine products carry the pervasive message of being unclean. Can you imagine scented boxer liners for men? Men! Keep your Gonads Lemon Fresh!

No me neither.

CajaDeLaMemoria Thu 28-Feb-13 13:19:10

Men! Keep your Gonads Lemon Fresh!

Has just made my day. I've splurted my drink EVERYWHERE. Dear god, someone needs to make these!

TheUndesireable Thu 28-Feb-13 13:21:34

My dp is pretty useless. I've been thinking about it a lot lately so this thread caught my eye. I've been thinking about how I haven't had oral sex in over a year sad I still give him oral occasionally, not sure why. I guess because I enjoy giving him pleasure.

Theres Not much foreplay, a quick fiddle and then just basically bangs away until he's done. In the beginning he was more adventurous, but it's become a boring routine now. I used to love sex, now I don't bother initiating because there's nothing in it for me.

I've raising it with him lots and showed him what I like, written him a letter, talked about it. It will change for a couple of weeks but then always reverts back. Thing is I don't enjoy it when it changed because I know it's only because I've said something, not because he wants to please me.

I know he will never change. I'm 28 years old and feel very depressed that this will be my sex life sad

TheUndesireable Thu 28-Feb-13 13:23:53

To add I never fake it. He must know I don't orgasm, because when I do on the odd occasion (when I've basically done all the work) he will say 'wow you haven't come in ages' yeah I wonder why hmm

Frizzbonce Thu 28-Feb-13 13:38:25

TheUndesirable - well good for you for not faking. But the fact that this doesn't seem to bother him speaks volumes.

'I'm 28 years old and feel very depressed that this will be my sex life.'

Only if you choose to stay with him.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 28-Feb-13 13:38:59

Reading that - I have never had sex that bad, ever.

The worst was purely due to anatomy, or lack of it, but that had nothing to do with technique or sexual etiquette.

Have I been lucky? I don't know, I've had plenty of different partners so I am not viewing this from a small sample size grin

Dahlen Thu 28-Feb-13 13:39:22

TheUndesirable, it doesn't have to be your sex life for the rest of your life.

You've made it clear. Any normal, caring person who loves their partner would listen to what you're saying and make permanent changes. He's basically just paying you lip-service, which says a lot about his level of respect and care for you. sad I bet his lack of consideration shows in other ways as well.

Inexperience/ineptitude is excusable. But having been shown what is good/wanted, there really is no excuse to continue being crap.

maras2 Thu 28-Feb-13 16:28:05

I've only ever had sex with DH and him with me.We were a bit crap to start with 45 years ago but with practise and a sense of humor we got it right eventually.He's a great lover who has changed techniques to suit my body changes over the years.I'm not too bad myself.Don't know how either of us would perform with other partners though.Hope we'll never have to find out.The tales on here about some blokes rubbish techniques have made me laugh as I recognise some of them from when we first started .... especially the analagy with getting a stain out of a blazer .... as I said, we got better < thank God >smile

I think the prevailing porn culture doesn't help.

From watching porn some men learn that women are no more than inflatable dolls with orifices who make overly appreciative noises, far from the truth about real women.

A lot of women buy into this too hence the whole brazilian wax, barely there hair down there trend.

We need to learn to love ourselves as we are and then demand the respect we deserve from our lovers. Low self-esteem and peer pressure are a big part of it.

I feel so sad when I think back to my early sexual history and so very glad that I have now in my DH a loving partner.

Well, it's only really in the last 100 years or so that it's been remotely acceptable for women to enjoy sex. It used to be the case that a woman who liked sex was percieved as wicked or mentally ill. So there is a great deal of cultural weight to the idea that sex is something women 'let' men have on their bodies, and that the man's orgasm is what matters.

Also, girls are still quite often taught about sex in terms of disease, danger, pregnancy rather than enjoyment; it's all about controlling the man's access to your body etc.

cronullansw Thu 28-Feb-13 19:30:51

I just knew porn would be to blame..... smile

Obv it couldn't possibly be lack of education, to both genders, about how sex is fun, and enjoyable. Young people should be taught that sex is fun - instead there are terrifying mental hurdles being built up about pregnancy and sti's, hmm, sounds like heaps of fun to me.

And I honestly don't think one gender or the other is at fault here, so picking on men isn't entirely necessary - or are the majority of women sexually brilliant straight from the get go?

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow Thu 28-Feb-13 19:52:32

That poster didn't blame porn, she merely said it doesn't help.

And if a man has an orgasm but doesnt take the trouble to give a woman one, then it's the man at fault isn't it.

How many sexual encounters do you here about where the woman has an orgasm and then it's all over, never mind if the man has one or not

MomaP Thu 28-Feb-13 20:00:20

I agree with flurp - ive been with DH for 7 years and he has never, ever give me an orgasm through intercourse.
My fault entirely, I've always faked it because I thought the problem was me and only I could solve it. I was naive, because I was just 15.
7 years on, I still fake it. sad sad sad

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 28-Feb-13 20:03:18

But porn DOES mainly show women not needing anything but penetration to have enjoyable sex, that is assuming that it is enjoyable for them at all angry
I think schools now, certainly in my 15yr dd's case, is doing a more balanced sex ed, indicating it should be fun, as well as responsible.
It may just be my unfortunate experience, but often it seems to me that men are SCARED of women who really enjoy sex. Don't know if they just have many issues with women, find it a bit scary, the old good women they marry, bad women they don't thing...

Beograde Thu 28-Feb-13 20:22:28

I'm going to be slightly controversial and turn the question around - why are so many women crap at communicating what they like and don't like? Having spoken to many friends about this over the years, I often wonder why so many women don't lead more and say "I really like it when you ..."

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 28-Feb-13 20:23:56

Beo whenever I have, it hasn't gone well, so not the problem in my case. I have always given the best chance of good sex.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Thu 28-Feb-13 20:24:44

Women, please don't fake it!!!

Honestly, how are we ever expected to get better.

Tell us, show us........... wink

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow Thu 28-Feb-13 20:38:43

Excellent post Beograde - i've always believed in the school of thought "theres no such thing as bad sex, just two individuals who aren't communicating properly"

I've tactfully broached this subject a few times and the sex DID improve.

Uppatreecuppatea Thu 28-Feb-13 20:59:41

My ExH was not that great. When I tried to (very) gently direct him, he accused me of being like a drill sergeant. Cue lots of faking, then avoiding sex, then a non-existence of sex. Oh, and divorce.

My now DH is the best and we have great sex almost every day. I have to laugh at my ExH calling me frigid. Au contraire, my dear! grin.

Uppatreecuppatea Thu 28-Feb-13 21:03:43

To add: my DD is 10 and they are watching a series of health education videos at school (which were screened to us parents first).

After watching the first video, which taught them all about their bodies and puberty, she wanted to come home and have a look at her vagina in the mirror with me! She also insisted we buy panty-liners on the way home from school and proclaimed that she hadn't yet felt any pleasure from touching herself 'like the video said'. She also knows that sex is not only to make babies but something that feels good between two loving people (whatever their flavour).

I think this a positive thing and I will always encourage an open dialogue with her. They are clearly being taught a healthy view of puberty and sex.

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 28-Feb-13 21:12:33

Uppatrea I got told the same from exh...I think it was "Yes miss", but pretty much the same! So you can tell them, and they don't take any notice. Ergo, telling them what you like is not always the answer...

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Thu 28-Feb-13 21:31:20

Is it wrong that although I don't think my dh is brilliant in bed, I don't really care?

I've never had much of a sex drive and we rarely have penetrative sex. We tend do just do lots of other things. I have never had an orgasm through penetration, it just doesn't work for me, but dh can make me orgasm lots of other ways.

When we do have sex however I just don't enjoy it. He doesn't hurt me or anything and he really does try hard to please me, but it just does absolutely nothing for me. I would like to think that I did have a fulfilling sex life with proper penetration but I just don't get anything out of it. He's not bothered himself, as long as we are intimate and something happens he's happy.

I don't think I ever want to tell him that I think our sex is rubbish. I couldn't bear to hurt his feelings and as I'm not that bothered anyway I don't see any point in telling him. On the odd occasion that he actually wants penetration I don't think it's a big sacrifice to go along with it and be encouraging.

FastidiaBlueberry Thu 28-Feb-13 21:49:10

I really don't know OP in answer to your question.

There was a brief, glorious time in the eighties where it looked as though we were going to dump all those double standards about sluts vs. studs and where men actually wanted to be good in bed. They even read books about how to make sure they were.

And now young men send you texts where they assure you that they can "go all night". I did once ask someone if he thought that that ability was what constituted being a good lover and if so where he'd got that idea from, but he became apoplectic with rage and didn't answer the question.

It's a mystery. A couple of people have said that women don't know how to communicate what they like, but surely it should occur to men to ask?

One of the reasons women don't communicate what they like is because a) if they're young, they may not actually know what they like and b) because we are still living with the hangover of finding it "slutty" for women to know what they like and ask for it. We're supposed to gratefully receive what men "give" us and that's supposed to automatically cause paroxysms of orgasms. hmm

Oh and PMSL at "the one who quite literally did press ups on me with his eyes tightly shut and if I made a noise he said "shhh!"" grin

Frizzbonce Thu 28-Feb-13 22:58:05

I agree that women need to take responsibility for their own pleasure and communicate what they want to their lovers. But equally there still seem to be a load of men who when you do try to communicate, either ignore it or are deeply threatened by anything that deviates from their 'Seeking Radio Latvia' nipple fiddling and three minute thrust-a-thon followed by snoring.

Ilovemydog I've never had an orgasm from penetrative sex either. And if women enjoying sex has only been around for about 100 years, the clitoris was only 'discovered' in the last twenty or thirty years.

Dryjuice25 Fri 01-Mar-13 01:36:21

What? Clitoris 'discovered' in the last the last 20/30 yrs?

LittleEdie Fri 01-Mar-13 01:42:19

I think that the idea that women don't enjoy sex is more a Victorian construct than something that's been around for all time. In the 17thC apparently it was thought that conception was more likely if the woman had an orgasm too. (May be wrong, I'm not an expert smile.)

I would suggest that the idea that women "shouldn't" enjoy sex has only been around since the patriarchal religions took over from the matriarchal and made everything about the menz. IIRC, the early earth-worshipping relgions were all about women and pleasuring women was an important job for a man. Or perhaps I just read too much Clan of the Cave Bear....

Spellcheck Fri 01-Mar-13 07:06:36

I love my DP to bits but the sex is pretty 'meh'. I love sex, I had an amazing sex life before I met him, always made sure I got what I wanted and gave back, too. But DP has no clue how to please a woman.

He is pretty well-endowed but it's a total waste! He honestly believes that an ex of his found him too big and that's why she didn't enjoy sex and went off with someone else... I'm convinced it is because he is utterly clueless about foreplay and the fact that it is different for women.

I have explained a million times as nicely as I can how I want intimacy, talking, oral, stroking, you know, proper love-making, tried to demonstrate, tried to read books with him, but it falls on deaf ears. He's not totally selfish, he honestly does try but it's like being with a 15 year-old. He feels self-conscious during sex anyway, and to feel he's being 'taught' I think makes it worse. Because I've mentioned it, there's pressure on him now to perform. I don't know what to do but it's becoming a real problem for me.

His parents are quite repressed people, they find it hard to display emotions, though they are kind and it is clear the emotions are there. DP is better, makes his feelings known, etc, but sex in their house was a completely taboo subject. I worry because his father had an affair about 10 years ago and was sleeping with prostitutes, clearly spent years with it all bubbling up inside. I tell DP we need to be able to talk properly about sex and over the last 4 years it's got better, but still...I don't want him to end up doing what bis Dad did. The family brushed it all under the carpet and carried on.

When DP was single he did use internet porn, which I reckon taught him to expect certain things but not to have to give anything back. He's 10 years younger than me and I have found that men of his generation are definitely different in bed. Though my experience is limited to three men ranging from 10 to 13 years younger than me, the difference is marked.

I love him dearly, he's thoughtful, caring and wonderful in every other way but I am so frustrated! I actually find myself thinking of the incredible sex life my exH and I built up over the years and (though exH is an arse) missing it.

Spellcheck Fri 01-Mar-13 07:12:02

TheUndesireable yes, that's how I feel - depressed to think this could be my sex life for ever sad

ParsleyTheLioness Fri 01-Mar-13 07:44:28

Spellcheck in your opinion/experience, do you think the younger men are less considerate sexually?

Spellcheck Fri 01-Mar-13 08:01:38

When I was in my teens and early 20's before I met exH I did have a fair amoint of boyfriends who, if they didn't know, asked what I liked. My first proper boyfriend aged 18 was very considerate and I found most boys were keen to be 'good in bed' and knew that meant the girl enjoying it too.

When I split from exH in my mid-30's I had a crazy fling with a 22 year old who wanted to do it in every position (he thought it made him a great lover) but had no clue re foreplay. Similarly with a 25 year old, and then I met DP who was 26. We both knew straight away that it was meant to be, and I assumed sex would get better as time went by, particularly as he'd had a couple of long relationships. Ha.

I just don't think intimacy and mutual satisfaction are things people think about any more. Did they ever? I don't know.

suburbophobe Fri 01-Mar-13 08:15:45

Thanks for the good ole belly-laugh on a friday morning!
Brilliant thread.

God, yes, some of them are so useless.

Best line I ever heard from a friend "He couldn't fuck to save his life"!

venusandmars Fri 01-Mar-13 08:23:43

My lovely dp and his exw were both virgins when they married (many moons ago). He says that neither of them had a clue about their own bodies, or about each others, and no idea how to communicate about it. It was all pretty crap and they spilt up. He is eternally gratefully to the girlfriend he had next (as am I) who knew what she liked, but most importantly, had the patience and persistence to teach him well, so that when we met it was only a matter of teaching him a few adjustments and personal preferences.

Interestingly in Shakespearian times, when all actors were men, one of the purposes of writing and acting was to understand female emotions and reasoning and communication - hence all the men dressed up as woman and boy/girl confusion in the stories. So maybe lots of method acting in some of the gentler Shakespeare plays and fewer graphic rape films would go some way to teaching boys empathy.

I'd turn the thread title around and ask "Why aren't more women selfish and entitled in bed?"

Nothing turns a man on more than knowing he is pleasuring a woman - making a woman orgasm is a huge ego boost for them. So women, get entitled, get selfish, make love making all about your pleasure and the man will get swept up in it and have a good time by default.

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 09:03:59

You're wrong world maybe read my post again. My dp doesn't get that ego boost from pleasing me. I've had lovers that get so turned on when I'm enjoying myself. Not all men are like this. My p doesn't really look at me during sex, he looks like he's concentrating on reaching the big O and not much else tbh.

I do feel used sometimes, like a mastubatory toy. Horrible. I'm sensing another talk is imminent but really don't see the point tbh.

Sorry you're going through similar spell sad

MidnightMasquerader Fri 01-Mar-13 09:20:01

I think a lot of the issue is that ... all a woman has to do to be good in bed, is turn up.

And then certain men - possibly those lacking much in the way of imagination - think all they have to do to be good in bed, is turn up.

But PIV sex really isn't designed for women's pleasure, is it? Unfortunately, as substantial sub-group of men think that banging away like a priapic woodpecker is the way to go... hmm

netsuke Fri 01-Mar-13 09:31:00

I could never orgasm with my previous boyfriends, because I never 100% believed or knew that they wanted me. There was always some doubt, or they treated me badly in everyday life: selfish in some ways or cruel.

With my current DH I pretty much have an orgasm every time because I can relax and let go in my mind because I feel desired and gorgeous.

With the past lovers my mind was always on them, thinking 'are they happy, are they enjoying this, do they think I am attractive, don't look at my stomach' etc

With DH I know he thinks I am sexy, I know he only wants me, so I feel confident and that turns into orgasms. I think our minds are the part that needs to be turned on.

Spellcheck Fri 01-Mar-13 09:39:59

netsuke I agree, it's our minds as much as anything.

I'm still laughing/crying over Frizz's 'trying to remove a stain from a blazer'!

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 09:59:29

Agree netsuke and midnight

GarbledMessage Fri 01-Mar-13 10:14:37

Spell, I am in the same situation as you. I have a DH who is great in every other way, but sexually is pretty lame. He comes from a similar background to your DP's, VERY sexually repressed, non expressive etc.

we have talked loads about it, I've told him what I like and showed him what I do, I have bought him books and even suggested counselling. All a no go. Our problem now is that I am turned off from him sexually. I can no longer make my head feel fwoar about him. He's a good looking guy, I get a lot of comments about how lucky I am from friends, and I just sit there and think 'if only you knew'.

I love him dearly. If a shit sex life is the price I pay for an otherwise completely happy and fulfilled marriage then so be it, I have had plenty of partners where the sex was amazing but the relationship itself utter shite, so I'll make that compromise. But there are times when it makes me feel desperately sad.

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 10:34:43

I don't think I will last long with this low level of intimacy. I've already started fantisising about other men. I met a doctor the other day for an appointment who was gorgeous and that night I was thinking about him lots and even dreamt about him.
I feel awful.
Why is it always down to the woman to dress up, wax, shave, smell good etc. for me anyway. I used to do all that, now I don't bother. Too much effort on my part and none on his.

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 10:36:02

Maybe we should start a support thread as there seems to be a few of us. I could do with talking to others about it

arsenaltilidie Fri 01-Mar-13 10:50:58

Never laughed so hard.
Maybe it's God's gift to the world.
The guys amazing in bed are almost always going to be cocks.
and guys amazing at relationships are almost always clueless or don't have that oomphh.

mercury7 Fri 01-Mar-13 11:09:06

I think some men are just not all that sensual

Frizzbonce Fri 01-Mar-13 11:12:31

Dryjuice what I meant about the clitoris was that in terms of societal sexual knowledge, it wasn't generally known or accepted that a large majority of women orgasm from clitoral stimulation rather than straight 'woodpecker' thrusting until quite recently. And only when feminism started to rear its head in the seventies. Up till then all the talk about sexuality was done by mainly men.

worldgonecrazy I'd turn the thread title around and ask "Why aren't more women selfish and entitled in bed?" Spot on. smile

When I was very young I went through a phase of relationships with older men (they were divorced) and in every case, foreplay was a smash and grab act, tongue thrusting as though my mouth had been invaded by a marauding haddock, and some random squeezing of body parts before the thirty second hump fest. All the finesse of a speeding train with an erection. All of them were the kind of men who married very young and never learned any sexual finesse (or felt the need to), and their wives presumably didn't say what they wanted or the men never asked, so the bloke stayed 'stuck' sexually as a rapacious teenager and the bad habits just stayed ingrained. I tried explaining what I wanted but it was useless. I suppose what I'm saying is - the age of the man is immaterial. Good manners, enthusiasm and paying attention to your partner and what she wants. Why is it so hard for some men? <fnar fnar.>

SayCoolNowSayWhip Fri 01-Mar-13 11:26:16

I find it very difficult to say what I want and how I want it. My parents were both pretty repressed and sex was never really spoken about.

DH and I do enjoy sex but I get more pleasure out of making him orgasm than myself. Also with a 2yo DD and being 37 wks pregnant my libido is not massive!

DH though would do anything to make me happy, I KNOW this, but I'm just not good at communicating to him. I have no idea how to start! Especially because I never have before, and I assume he'll wonder why I haven't, and feel bad himself, which is the last thing I want because it's not him, it's me!

StormyBrid Fri 01-Mar-13 11:52:32

I can think of two possible answers to the question of why some men are so selfish and entitled in bed. Either a) they don't realise just how crap they're being, or b) they just don't care either way. In my experience most men fall into one of these two camps (if not both). The ones who don't realise are redeemable, if their partners are willing and able to educate them; the ones who don't care are a lost cause.

That said, it shouldn't be our sole responsibility to educate our menfolk about how to be considerate etc. The idea that sex should be fun for both parties really ought to occur to them, and if it doesn't, then something's gone very wrong somewhere. The thing that sets my current bloke apart from ones I've sampled previously is he's well aware that every woman's different and he needs to actually pay attention and learn what I like. And he does so enthusiastically, which also helps.

GarbledMessage Fri 01-Mar-13 14:15:20

Mercury7 I think you are absolutely right, and the ones who are best in bed have an innate sensuality that just makes it all soooooooooooooooooo much sexier. I think part of my issue with DH is that I have to damn well explain what i want all the time, and it kills my libido. I want a man who will throw me on the bed and make me squirm with desire until I jump on him goddammit! DH, you see, is just too polite and well behaved. Sigh.

GarbledMessage Fri 01-Mar-13 14:16:07

And actually, d'you know what, even if he DID now, I think it'd be all wrong cause I know it's just not him. It's a lose lose situation.

ErikNorseman Fri 01-Mar-13 14:33:41

I don't remember having many orgasms with casual partners when I was younger. I think I felt they weren't so important hmm I had great sex with partners though.

More recently I had a ONS with a guy who was eager but inexperienced (I'm assuming). He was banging away and I kept trying to slow things down a bit. I don't enjoy being sexed on, I like it to be reciprocal! He then said 'I want to make you come' so I said ok, big grin on face, and started to show him how. He got the hump and went floppy. Meh. What are we supposed to do when the male ego won't allow any communication of our needs?

Frizzbonce Fri 01-Mar-13 15:01:26

Erik "I don't enjoy being sexed on" grin

I do don't mean to be nosy but he says he wants to make you come, you show him how and he goes all floppy?! What did he think you wanted - more of his turbo thrusting?

ErikNorseman Fri 01-Mar-13 15:07:57

Basically, yes. He said he wanted me to come, but only if that meant I could summon an orgasm immediately in response to him continuing exactly what he was doing. I wasn't teacherish or bossy, I just did the whole sexy grin-shift a bit-grind the pelvis thing. It clearly freaked him out.

Trinpy Fri 01-Mar-13 15:20:04

Tbh, some of the men I've slept with in the past have been so clueless explaining what I want made me feel bossy and teacher-like. Which might work for some but is not a turn-on for me. And I got frustrated with having to say 'not like that, more like this' for the millionth time.

I don't think I'm amazing in bed but I like to think I've got reasonbly good through years of listening to partners/asking them what they like and just being aware of the other person.

In my teens I dated a guy for a few months. We were both crap and v inexperienced in bed and the sex was awful. Real planning-what-you're-going-to-have-for-dinner-tomorrow-night sex. After we broke up he got back together with an ex gf who was still a virgin. 3 years later we got back in contact and he confided in me that the sex we had when we were together was the best he'd ever had. We decided not to see each other again after that (he was still with the same gf), but I was shock at the time that someone could spend years having such an unsatisfying sex life.

Autumn12 Fri 01-Mar-13 15:20:26

One of my Ex's told me once that men really don't care if the woman has an orgasm or not. I felt sorry for his then wife.

ordinarybloke Fri 01-Mar-13 15:37:13

Autumn12 - luckily there are plenty of men who get-off on their sexual partner enjoying the and having an orgasm.but it has to be a 2-way street.you cannot expect all men to automatically know what they have to do to pleasure a woman. if he's not doing it properly,then tell and/or show him.but the bloke does have to follow her instructions/suggestions.

goodnightlove Fri 01-Mar-13 15:39:44

But, as has been explained ordianary, even after having told and shown some men can't or wont do what it takes to get their partner fully involved.

Maybe they're not listening hmm

goodnightlove Fri 01-Mar-13 15:52:53

Oh thank god for this thread. I love my DH madly and deeply. I love his personality. I fancy the pants off him. I love the look of him, the smell of him, the taste of him everything about him.

I love making love with him. I'll do quickies. It's not like i want hours of sex every time. I love giving him oral, i do it all the time. I'll try stuff out.

But ... 9 times out of 10 ... 29 times out of 30 - 'speeding train with an erection' sums him up. I have tried and tried to slow him down. I have shown him how i pleasure myself. I have told him i love oral, and on the occasions where he's given it a go i've been wildly encouraging (even though it was only so so) I have asked him to go slowly and told him why. I have actually grabbed his hips mid thrust many a time and said 'slow down darling - i love to feel every inch' or similar, but he returns to drill mode almost straight away. He actually says he can't help it.

I have read out threads from MN about men who wont perform oral on their partners or are wham bam thank you mam. Or who struggle to make a long session. Or flick a nipple and then expect great things. He has responded well - said things like, 'yeah i should try harder really' or 'i don't go down on you much, do i?' or 'i'm a bugger for rushing to the finish line'.

Nothing changes though. What do i do?

CheerfulYank Fri 01-Mar-13 15:59:31

I was a bit concerned when I got together with my DH...he was a repressed, very Catholic, virgin. But it started out quite good and became amazing. smile

He is innately very physical and gets extrmely turned on by women enjoying themselves, so that's helpful!

Also he didn't watch a lot of porn when he was young. I think when men are boys\teens and their first sexual "experiences" are seeing women thrown on the bed and jackhammered without any foreplay, and the women are screaming with delight...well. Doesn't bode well for their future partners!

ScabieFace Fri 01-Mar-13 16:03:31

I'm so pleased there are others whose DPs aren't brilliant in bed and that they accept it.

I've been lucky enough to have loads of sex with some men who were AMAZING in bed (and some who weren't!) but nothing else about those relationships worked. I love DP and he is great in dozens of ways. I really fancy him but he just isn't any good in bed. Penetration is great but foreplay is few and far between.

For now I'm ok with it but I do wonder if I'll ever slip and cheat on him for some hot and passionate sex. Oh I'm a bad person. confused

Reading COSMO was always quite enlightening and gives you some thoughts as to what women want - plus some plain old practising too grin.

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 16:24:52

I am trying to read this with a straight face in front of the dcs.I think I have been incredibly lucky with my dps. However I have been having sex with the same person for the last 16 years give or take, so have almost certainly missed the most recent porn fuelled trends. (All my partners with v. few exceptions wanted to be good in bed and wanted me to enjoy it).

I have to say that I think not having sex too early in the relationship does help you both to learn what the other person likes. Hours and hours (or in some cases weeks and weeks) of touching , kissing , licking, sucking and feeling can only lead to better sex when the time comes. This is the approach the sex therapists use. Perhaps posters whose dps are otherwise perfect could try only non penetration for a while to learn a bit more about what floats each other's boats.

Charliefox Fri 01-Mar-13 16:24:53

Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones too but I've never had a bad experience in bed and I've had a loooot of men pass through the revolving doors <not a euphemism>. I've only ever known men who are passionate, horny as hell, not in the slightest bit put out by noise, mess, blood or anything else. Who worship women's bodies and want to devour them. I can honestly say though, if a guy was just twiddling round a bit or was 'selfish and entitled', I'd simply stop proceedings, get dressed and that'd be the end of that.

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 16:27:18

OTOH a mature man who shows no consideration for his partner early in the relationship probably isn't worth wasting any more time on.

Charliefox Fri 01-Mar-13 16:30:10

Reading that back, I sound a bit selfish and entitled! Ah well, hey ho.

Wishi or in some case years.......had about 3 years together before we fully DTD, blimey its 30 years in about one month and one week since first she snogged my face off.

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 16:40:26

Respect Nigellla. My record was about 6 months (age 17). But didn't let DH into my knickers for about 6 weeks smile

OmiQueenofTypose Fri 01-Mar-13 16:57:39

I remember the turning point with DH, where we went from Ok to brilliant, was the excruciating moment when he first heard Lily Allen's Not Fair. He asked me a few questions about sex, about what it was like for me (in general) and then he went quiet while the penny dropped. It was like it finally all clicked together - he wasn't terrible before, but it wasn't very joined up. And after that? It was all goooood. grin

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 17:19:40

Haha I just sent P the link to that song, wonder if he'll mention it

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 17:21:14

He once said he'd never been with anyone who took so long to come (I don't, it's just he doesn't know how to do it right)
Just saying that will kill your libido and made me feel like a freak

I do think that quite a lot of it is down to the fact that, socially and culturally, a lot of men still think, fundamentally, that women are't quite 'people', and that men are simply more important. So sex is about the man's orgasm first and foremost, just as 'the famiy' is about the man getting his domestic comforts and his children cared for by the woman.

ineedabodytransplant Fri 01-Mar-13 17:51:33

It works both ways.

I have bleated enough on here about the lack of intimancy during my 30+ years of marriage, and how I only stuck with it because of my vows.

I honestly don't know enough about women in bed to say who is at fault. But can you all say, truthfully, that you have all been ready, willing and able, and it's always been the male who fails?

I am prepared for a total flaming here, but from my very, very limited experience (which to my total and utter regret, isn't going to change in my lifetime) it takes two to tango.....

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 17:56:35

I'm sorry ineed. Was it ever any good or has it never been what you would have liked ?

ineedabodytransplant Fri 01-Mar-13 17:57:33

Please take my last post with the slightest of intelligence, but I dream of being exactly the type of bloke in bed you all seem to wish for, and I apologise for all man-kind.

My whole sex-life is in my head and I do tend to waffle on.......[wink

Seriously though, I can emphasise with the women who struggle and wish for more, I know I did, but does anyone have the answer? I doubt it.grin

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 18:04:57

Of course it takes two, but if you have read the thread you will see the women here are making effort and communicating!

ineedabodytransplant Fri 01-Mar-13 18:05:59

Wishihadabs,

I don't want to distract from the thread, but it wasn't good from the beginning. Athough I didn't know that at the time, we were young and I thought it was the norm to all be over in a few minutes. It was a few years before I discovered there should be more, but it was too late by then.

I wish I could turn back the clock and know then what I know now. Women, and men luckily, are more aware of sex and love-making now than ever before so hopefully things will be better.

ineedabodytransplant Fri 01-Mar-13 18:08:58

The undesirable, (and Iam sure you're not)

I totally agree, but I can only see one side here where every poster seems to say it's the blokes fault. It may be but I am just giving my viewsmile

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 18:09:51

I think there are 2 different problems being discussed here;
Lack of sex vs The wrong kind of sex

I think the second is more fixable as both partners are interested in having a sex life. In the first if one partner is just not that bothered then that is much more difficult to sort out, especially if they have never been that interested.

TheUndesireable Fri 01-Mar-13 18:12:17

You're right, I'm not but that's how I'm feeling sad

It is my opinion that The blokes in question here are at fault as they are clearly satisfied and getting what they want. Selfish and entitled people generally do get what they want.

Sorry to be snappy, probably down to lack of good sex!

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 18:15:38

Why too late ? It strikes me that you would like a fufilling sex life. Does dp not want that. Btw it doesn't have to go on for hours to be any good. DH and I love having a quickie

mercury7 Fri 01-Mar-13 18:17:07

some of it must surely be sexual incompatibility?
There must be couples where the man wants soulful lovemaking and the woman just wants a quick release?

CityTiliDie Fri 01-Mar-13 18:18:08

Just chucking in male piont of view.......

Never been a big fan of Radio Latvia!! and my Blazer looks better with the dirty marks.

I get more pleasure in bed with DW when she has an orgasm. I prefer silver medal sex....... I always come second. though I would add that last time I said anything about making sure my DW comes and enjoys it as much as possible I was vilified for putting too much pressure onto my DW during sex hmm

I always would ask a new GF what she liked in bed and would never expect anything in return, DW does not like giving oral but likes to recieve and I can put up with that as it makes her happy, I throughly like giving my tongue a good work out (there are so few machines in the Gym for that) so we both win.

Not being what one would class as 'well endowed' I have to make up for it in other ways (have learnt to breathe through my ears!) and can lick the end of my nose though thats probably more about the size of my nose than the length of my tongue.

Females deserve to be treated with respect, equality and passion when DTD and for me its more about them than me.

WRT Latvian radio that might be a problem of the past with the use of DAB radio where every channel is on preset so the 'men' of the future may just poke rather than twiddle and with vanish stain removing spray you might find your fanjo's full of weird foam in the future.

grin

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 01-Mar-13 18:22:04

"I'm so pleased there are others whose DPs aren't brilliant in bed and that they accept it."

I find that really depressing.

When I was young, we all assumed that by 2013, all women would be having good, fulfilling sex, not generally crap sex like they "used to" have.

The sexual revolution never really happened for most women, did it?

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 18:23:11

But then you comprise mercury surely. Anyway very few people always want the same type of sex. It's part of the joy of a new relationship finding out what the other partner likes....and often you find out things you enjoy that you may not have considered. For example DH is quite into restraint, I wasn't sure, we compromised, now I enjoy it and sometimes instigate it.

It's called growing together. (Easier if you meet in your early 20's so less set in your ways perhaps)

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 18:32:32

Citytilidie I think that's completely normal. I feel pretty s@#t if DH doesn't get there and he feels the same way. Love the expression silver medal sex.

goodnightlove Fri 01-Mar-13 20:02:45

Ineeda But can you all say, truthfully, that you have all been ready, willing and able,?

I can grin Seriously i can.

I don't know if wrong kind of sex is more fixable than lack of sex. It all depends on the problem i suppose.

We kiss passionately often. So it's not like we lack intimacy. DHs kisses are amazing. Bless him he can snog for England. I'm veeery fussy about my kissers. The first time we kissed i thought O.M.G this man knows how to tango. He does lovely things like lifting my chin gently for a kiss, running his fingers through my hair. Stroke my cheek. He'll tell me he loves me every day. He's touchy feely. I made him wait 3 months before we DTD. We did literally spend hours and hours winding each other into a frenzy before that.

DH is well endowed, and has the wonderful gift of staying up for ages, even after coming (sorry if this is TMI) so maybe feels he just doesn't have to try so hard. Does that make any sense? It's not like he's cold in bed. Or doesn't try. He just rushes things. Like a young lad. Too eager. Can't describe it any other way. He's not hearing me!

We have never had a situation where DH hasn't finished. The only time i do is if we've had loads of sex and it's sort of slowed him down. Then i can please myself on top for as long as it takes, or he takes long enough for me to get there blush

To add to the mess i have a horrible feeling that if i had too much attention turned on to me and weather i've had an orgasm or not i'd find it too much pressure now confused Which is maybe why i haven't made a massive issue of it between us. I'm rambling now!

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 20:14:57

Gnl sorry to be graphic but how often do you dtd ? DH and I always have a laugh about 1st of the month sex (as you describe over a bit quick). But that's cos we haven't done it for a bit. The longer, slower sessions tend to be when it's only been a few days.

Wishihadabs Fri 01-Mar-13 20:42:30

He sounds great in other ways

FastLoris Sat 02-Mar-13 00:32:39

I don't know if you can really say men are more selfish and entitled in bed than women. Everyone has sex seeking satisfaction, it's just that it seems generally easier and quicker for that to happen for men than for women.

In terms of relatively casual encounters and uncommitted sex, you need to remember that a lot of that long drawn our foreplay is really boring for most men. That doesn't mean they're bad people - it's just that it's not what floats their boat. And if as I say the sex is without much personal commitment, they won't necessarily be prepared to do something that bores them for that much time, for the sake of a lightweight relationship.

It's different when there's love involved. We all do things we're not particularly into for our partners, that's part of what makes a relationship work. And satisfying someone else is a lot more satisfying in and of itself, when you love the person.

Even there however there are limits and trade-offs. Imagine your partner asked you to watch a really boring art film with him on telly because that is what he is into. You'd probably say yes and go along for the ride, just to see if there's something in it you can both relate to - and through that relate to each other. Now imagine that he asked you to do that every night - 3 hours of black and white slow moving nothingness with subtitles. Or imagine that that was the minimum investment expected to ever watch telly. Every time the telly got switched on, it was on the assumption that that's what you'd be watching - you could never just enjoy a quick cartoon for a few minutes and be done with it.

Eventually, you'd want to find something else to do with your time. It wouldn't mean you don't love your partner.

Startail Sat 02-Mar-13 00:49:27

Only sleep with a man who respects you and who is happy to let you tell him what feels good.

I've only ever slept with DH and I don't think it's simply luck it works. I think it's both being confident scientists. We talk an try things and laugh when we get in a muddle.

I do think that one of the main causes of this particular problem ie men who are otherwise 'wonderful' but just not giving you what you want in bed, is that women are constantly being encouraged to value 'love' over 'sex' - because women who enjoy sex and want good sex are a massive threat to the current social order. If women have autonomy and can choose whether or not to have sex, whether or not to breed, etc, then how on earth are men going to persuade them to be domestic servants and breeding stock and accept being owned?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sat 02-Mar-13 01:10:52

Crikey Erik - you moved your hips and he didn't like it?

Crikey.

Crikey.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sat 02-Mar-13 01:26:42

Good point, SGB. It's where the whole consent thing is rooted, isn't it?

I don't need to consent to studying Spanish, or eating a brownie, or dancing - if I'm doing those things with a big smile on my face, or with quiet sighs of pleasure, consent is pretty redundant as a concept.

If you assume, however, that I don't really like brownies but will sometimes take one so as not to offend its creator, then suddenly consent starts to make sense as a concept.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Mar-13 09:16:55

The art film thing - no, I don't buy that.

Firstly lots of women who are talking about their men being crap in bed are referring to long term relationships where love is involved.

Secondly men who find non-PIV sex quite boring are in fact, crap in bed - that's what we're talking about, that's almost the definition of crap in bed.

Thirdly if what was really important to you in a relationship was art films, you wouldn't want to have a relationship with someone who only wanted cartoons and really didn't share your passion for art films. Or you would accept that that's a part of your life your partner didn't share and do that particular thing with a friend who did share your passion for it. But in most hetero-normative monogamous relationships, that's not really an option, is it?

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 02-Mar-13 09:20:06

Sorry it's an option for sharing art-films, or opera or whatever - but not for sharing sex.

Most men if told by their partners "listen darling, I know you don't like the non-PIV bit of sex because it's boring, so I've found this friend of mine who absolutely loves it and I'm going to do sex with him from now on so as not to bother you with all the stuff you find quite dull" would not respond positively to that suggestion.

Whereas they wouldn't mind if their partner found a friend with whom to share their art-film passion.

Wishihadabs Sat 02-Mar-13 09:20:53

PMSL at art film analogy.

TheUndesireable Sat 02-Mar-13 10:01:44

<Applauds Fastidia>

Spoonful Sat 02-Mar-13 11:40:01

That is dreadful to read FastLoris, that you believe men usually find non-PIV sex boring but are willing to go through it if they love their partner, like a chore!
If I thought my partner felt that way, why would I ever want to have sex with them?

goodnightlove Sat 02-Mar-13 12:40:33

wishi - we DTD twice a weekish, sometimes 3. I agree with you about the quickies after a big gap grin We share that joke too. And he is lovely, yes, which makes this so frustrating.

On the art-film comparison - i agree that if the only time the telly got turned on was to watch long meaningful films i wouldn't cope well at all. I love a 5 minute catroon as much as anybody. However, if i knew that watching the occasional long film with my partner was going to bring us closer and bring him allot of joy then i'd make a point of learning to love doing it! Surely this is what part of 'give and take' means in a relationship.

I would be happy with a 'proper long session' once every couple of weeks (when we have an empty house wink) I really am not looking for hour long sessions of meaningful moves every night. I'll accept a quickie. I like a quickie. I wont turn down a sleepy quickie a 3 o'clock am because he's woken up horny, i actually find that very sexy.

I don't expect to always orgasm when we have sex. This is because i do take longer than him and there isn't always that intenstity. But that's ok, i still enjoy the act very much.

One other problem which i would like to ask about while we're here, which is sort of related to this thread's topic, is this: i find that if we get into the sort of position/rhythm that will make me orgasm after, say, a minute or two, he finds it so stimulating that he can't hold back for more than a few strokes, so we have to stop, and i have to keep still for a minute. Which we laugh about - but it puts me back to square one a bit and we go round in circles..... Does anyone else have this?

mercury7 Sat 02-Mar-13 13:06:01

Goodnight yes, I have found the same thing with some men, the more I seem to be enjoying it the less able he is to hold back..arent they supposed to learn to distract or control themselves fgs?? hmm

Imagine what a man would do if you just got astride him 'rode' him until you'd come (for the sake of this thought experiment imagine you can easily orgasm like this after 3 minutesgrin)
and then got off just as he's started to enjoy it..he'd be gutted, wouldn't he?

mercury7 Sat 02-Mar-13 13:09:03

...and when you get off you mutter 'sorry..havent had it for a while' before going to sleep/turning on the tv/making a sandwich etc

Wishihadabs Sat 02-Mar-13 13:54:07

Goodnight I think I proper long session every couple of weeks is totally fair enough. Not sure what you can do about it though......just makes sure he gives you lots of lovely foreplay beforehand I guess.

TheUndesireable Sat 02-Mar-13 14:20:10

Mercury, that would never happen but I've been tempted to do that

WinterWallace Sat 02-Mar-13 14:25:06

Been reading this thread with interest as I am experiencing some of the exact same problems.. where do I sign up for the support group grin. DP is lovely in every way but sex is a bit, well, lame. The main problems are
-We hardly ever go to bed at the same time
-I have a higher sex drive than him
-We have teenagers and a rubbish-sleeping toddler in the house meaning child free time is non existent
- We don't do it often enough (maybe 1-2 times a month) so when we do, he comes much too quickly before I have even got started. When I once had a huff over this, he basically said not to make an issue over it as it would turn it into a even bigger problem. This basically shut the door over any further discussion of the matter.

Shit, reading that back it looks like a huge list of problems! To begin to sort this out I am proposing 2 things to start.. a strict 'no children entering the bedroom if the door is shut' rule and secondly, a hold on penetrative sex for a while. I am perfectly able (and love to) orgasm without penetration and if he wants to orgasm well, it will have to be without penetration too!

Any more advice anyone? Can't believe I am discussing my sex life on a forum but things have to change!

TheUndesireable Sat 02-Mar-13 14:28:56

I'm thinking of saying no piv sex for the next few times. Maybe that way p will have to use his imagination more and we can have more fun.

WinterWallace Sat 02-Mar-13 14:36:47

Yeah sounds good TheUndesireable. I am going for that approach too. Although DP is bloody ill today so won't be starting tonight!

CheerfulYank Sat 02-Mar-13 15:05:51

DH actually likes longer sex than I do...I like foreplay for a long time but when it comes to actual piv, I come fairly quickly and then just want to be done.

TheUndesireable Sat 02-Mar-13 17:51:08

Good luck Winter I hope it has some good effect. I'm definitely doing it this time, I've been saying to myself for ages to but always give in at the time. Need to follow through!

IrnBruTheNoo Sat 02-Mar-13 19:43:09

This thread has made me sad for women who've never experienced the joy of wonderful sex...DH always makes sure I'm satisfied first every single time. Always has done. Oral sex is something we occasionally do for each other. We were both confident with our own bodies before we met each other, and I think this has a lot to do with how amazing the sex will be as a couple. You have to be confident and know what pleases you as individuals, and intimacy as a couple will flow much easier.

IrnBruTheNoo Sat 02-Mar-13 19:45:59

Must also add that DH has suffered from retarded ejaculation in the past, but we've worked through this and he is able to ejaculate after 10-15 mins of penetrative sex. Never known what sex is like with a partner who suffers from premature ejaculation. Ex BF was another retarded ejaculator!

Wishihadabs Sat 02-Mar-13 20:21:22

What is retarded ejaculation please ?

LovesPeace Sat 02-Mar-13 20:31:00

My ex once complained I wasn't 'enthusiastic' enough in bed. It was true, and attributable to the fact that we always had sex without kissing, without foreplay, and in the same 'spoons' position until he came.

Now, I'm in a BDSM relationship with a lovely kind man, and his entire focus seems to be on making me happy in sex - and he laughs that I'm 'insatiable'.

Of course, I have to accept some of the blame in my earlier relationship - for not refusing to have sex (I did try telling him I wasn't enjoying it, but he didn't much care).

I think the 'vanilla' world could learn a lot from the way that people in BDSM or 'kinky' relationships talk about their needs/wants/limits before doing 'playing'.
And safewords for vanilla sex would be good.

FastLoris Sat 02-Mar-13 22:01:30

Spoonful -

That is dreadful to read FastLoris, that you believe men usually find non-PIV sex boring but are willing to go through it if they love their partner, like a chore!

I never said they "find non-PIV sex boring" per se. What I wrote was specifically about "long drawn out foreplay" - and maybe I should have been clearer, but what I meant by that was the expectation that it always has to go on for literally hours.

I enjoy non-PIV sex perfectly happily, but I've been in a relationship with that level of expectation and I'm sorry, but it was boring. I don't see why that difference in sexual tastes is any more "dreadful" than any other difference in tastes in a relationship. Or for that matter more dreadful than the various posters on this thread who have admitted having a certain amount of "meh" sex because it satisfies their partner and doesn't particularly bother them. Why is it OK not to dislike because it's too short, but not OK to dislike it because it's too long?

There's a wierd idea that when people love each other they instantly become fully sexually compatible and stay that way forever. It ain't so - people are different, in that as in anything else. Of course how you deal with that difference is part of what makes or breaks a relationship.

And of course, if you happen to enjoy an unusually high degree of compatibility on that score in your relationship, then that's great! smile

FastLoris Sat 02-Mar-13 22:03:22

Sorry I meant "Why is it OK to dislike because it's too short, but not OK to dislike it because it's too long"? Convoluted series of negatives...

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Sat 02-Mar-13 22:09:42

"the expectation that it always has to go on for literally hours"

Fast, was that only in one relationship you found that?

FastLoris Sat 02-Mar-13 23:17:20

One relationship particularly, yes.

There's obviously a general pattern that women need sex to last longer to be satisfying than men. But in most relationships I've been in, the difference has not been too great to be solvable with communication and compromise.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 02-Mar-13 23:24:43

It's just the 'literally hours' part that surprised me. If sex (PIV or non-PIV) went on that long, I'd think it was cos both parties were really into it and there to be orgasms involved on both sides.

Unless of course you were dating Trudi Styler grin

The sense of entitlement emanating from the OP is enough to make paint blister.

If you expect to lie there and think ofEngland you deserve everything you get (or don't get as the case may be).

Spoonful Sun 03-Mar-13 02:38:17

FastLoris, I read it that you felt the sex women in general wanted was too boring for men in general, because they'd see foreplay (which is often all the non PIV sex necessary to bring the woman to orgasm) as long and drawn out.

Which I do think is dreadful, but if you didn't mean that that's fair enough!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 03-Mar-13 07:21:58

Toad, where in the OP was anything said that made you think "ooh, sense of entitlement?"

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 08:07:08

The idea of literally hours of foreplay with 2 children and 2 jobs is frankly laughable. When on earth do you find the time ?

goodnightlove Sun 03-Mar-13 09:54:58

Personally i don't see any entitlement in the OP. Frustration and exasperation, yes.

I do think there is scope for a mix up here between posts saying "men should last longer and do more" and "my man has been asked to do more occasionally but wont/cant/doesn't understand".

The hope is, especially in a long term relationship, that 2 people will come together and more or less match in sex drive and style most of the time. There are millions of different sex drives and styles. And yes, each person will fluctuate from week to week too.

It's a big ask to promise to have sex with only one person for the rest of your life, and if it's wrong between you - it's going to fester. Recognising the usual peaks and troughs for what they are is important i think. Sometimes it is a simple matter of logistics - kids around, tiring work schedule, got into a rut etc. However when you see a pattern emerging over a long time. and despite trying things are not improving, it can feel like a bad thing to 'make an issue' of it. As winter found with her DP. Faced with the choice of a clumsy conversation which may not be well received, or carrying on with the status quo, it can be easier to keep chickening out of the 'talk' and carry on fretting sad

I'm wondering now if my DH suffers from premature ejaculation to some extent. Perhaps this, coupled with a natural tendancy to rush at things (he bolts his food and has is not good at being patient with 'fiddly jobs') means that he just isn't good at imaginative sex.

In reference to love's post about vanilla sex, and trying something different forcing dialogue, i agree. We 'play games' a bit. He likes to tie me to the bed sometimes for eg. There's been a bit of 'nasty sex'. Name calling/biting. The latest one is DH pretending to break in to the house wearing a balaclava. My idea grinblush. He was happy to do it and it was a laugh. So he can see the fun side of sex, as well as the race to the finish line.

IrnBru it's interesting that you say you have no problems and also that your partner has suffered with retarded ejaculation - having to work to get to the point where he ejaculates after as little as 15 minutes. My DP works hard to last as long as 15 minutes. Add in the fact that a good position for me is a dead cert. for him to come within moments.

mercury once, when DH took a particularly quick quickie and i had been expecting a bit more, i threw a strop and said something along the lines of 'oh great you're done then! How would you feel if i came and left you high and dry and went to sleep'. He got cross and said 'oh whatever', which left me seething. Then the next day he apologised for the quickie and the 'oh whatever', and since then he has been a leetle bit better in terms of thinking before letting himself finish.

It would be interesting to see any input from a guy here who has had trouble 'lasting' and being creative.

goodnightlove Sun 03-Mar-13 09:58:01

Just cringing at my comparison with fiddly jobs and good sex there.
You know what i mean don't you? blush

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 03-Mar-13 10:03:20

Are there really men who finish first, know that they have and still go to straight to sleep without so much as a "anything else you'd like, darling?"

Didn't they read Cosmo?!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 03-Mar-13 10:04:23

Sorry, goodnight, didn't mean to be flip wrt your situation.

goodnightlove Sun 03-Mar-13 10:11:29

it's ok doc, i don't even really know what my situation is! grin

mercury7 Sun 03-Mar-13 10:46:33

a mans honest point of view would be handy but we can never really know what it feels like for the other sex.
Maybe if i was a men i'd end up racing towards my own orgasm, forgetting, in the heat of the moment, about her pleasure?

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 11:14:23

It definitely feels much better for them mercury, sex was designed for men if you look at it in a physical way. Women's genitals are terribly designed for most in the piv does as much as tickling a guys balls.

mercury7 Sun 03-Mar-13 11:21:24

hmm, I think it's easier for men to get what they want from piv sex..I suppose for women the clitoris really out to be inside the vagina?

But women have a greater capacity for sexual pleasure, surely?

as for what sex was designed for..well that presupposes the intervention of a 'designer' and thats a whole other debate.

more like sex has been hijacked by men for their own ends and women ought to stop putting up with less than fulfilling sex..easier said than done given the weight of cultural conditioning etc etc

mirai Sun 03-Mar-13 11:50:18

Can I ask a question? Missionary position. Do men generally 'take their weight' on their elbows or just lie on top of you? I'm sure most should (and do) take their weight but when I was talking about it with my friend she said her DP just lies on top of her. And she likes it!! hmm grin

badinage Sun 03-Mar-13 12:00:05

I'm finding it hard to fathom why the women who've posted on this thread about their unsatisfying sex lives, ended up committing to these blokes in the first place? Why did you place good sex so low down in the pecking order, if it was that important to you?

Agree with whoever said that it's as though the sexual revolution never happened for some women, but I'm genuinely interested in how come this has happened.

When I first had sex 35+ years ago it would have been unthinkable for women of my generation to settle for bad sex because we'd been socialised that great sex was our birthright. Admittedly there was still a hang-up from the fifties that women didn't have to orgasm to make sex good but most intelligent women of my acquaintance realised that was a crock of shit wink. Also in those days men didn't learn about sex from internet porn and I think that must be partly responsible for some men being shit lovers nowadays.

But I still can't help thinking 'just why?' when I read threads on here from women who think that it's worth being in a relationship with such crap sex, or why they committed to these blokes when they knew the deal. I just don't understand it. confused

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 12:00:59

Mirai I think there is a range TBH. I know what your friend means grin

mercury7 Sun 03-Mar-13 12:06:31

Badinage, I think you are oversimplifying, and also implying that women in relationships where the sex isnt satisfying for them are lacking in intelligence.

Relationships are very complex, people are not machines who can just follow the course of action computed to have the highest probability of furthering their long term best interests

Fallenangle Sun 03-Mar-13 12:06:32

Reading this thread I am surprised how many posters seem to be having sex done to them - He just thrusts away on top of me til he comes, sort of thing.
What about woman on top?
There is more control over speed, depth etc
The wham bam expectations in his psychology are short circuited
You can use your own fingers or a bullet on your clit more easily
He can see you and judge your reactions
He can get at the Radio Latvia buttons
You can even tie him down and tease him
In my, not recent,experience most men last much longer on their back. In my recent experience my DP can lie there indefinitely he loves to watch me work.
Often he will go on top when it is time for him to finish.

badinage Sun 03-Mar-13 12:17:12

I don't think I am over-simplifying at all.

I'm genuinely interested in why some women compromise on something that's so important to them and what sort of thinking allows that trade-off.

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 12:30:04

People are different, I quite like having sex done to me. smile

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 12:50:13

I can't even be bothered to use my hands anymore, partly due to resentment and due to time restraints

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 12:52:48

Hands on yourself or him ? Weird visions of hand free sex now

ChestyLeRoux Sun 03-Mar-13 13:46:00

Who are these men who rac through without the woman orgasming first? Maybe in a one night stand but in a marriage? shock

Fallenangle Sun 03-Mar-13 14:28:01

wishi you aren't the one concerned about not having orgasms though. If the OP wants just to lie there and have the most marvellous sex delivered to her, then I have misunderstood her post.

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 14:54:32

grin wish

On myself. If I wanted to bring myself to orgasm, I would masturbate. I don't mind doing it from time to time, but not everytime. It would be nice for my p to do it

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 14:55:29

I reckons dp thinks we should both just look after ourselves, but isn't sex about giving, receiving, sharing, sensuality etc

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 14:56:15

True which is why I said we are all different. I do quite like going on top occasionally , but the best sex for me happens when DH is on top.We do enjoy simsimultaneous orgasm 9/10 times tho.

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 14:59:54

That does seem selfish undesirable. I think a ban on PIV for a bit might be a good idea.

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 15:00:48

Force him to use his hands ! (or mouth or whatever)

ChestyLeRoux Sun 03-Mar-13 15:02:15

Undesirable -that is not normal and I would be seriously questioning your relationship. Have you got children together?

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 15:03:07

Yes, I definitely will. I have a 9 week old ds so we haven't been having been up to much recently as both knackered. This means its even lazier on the occasions we have!
Was really upset when the first time after ds was born that nothing had changed and my pleasure wasn't considered but what did I expect?
P is a guy who doesn't need much sex, maybe once a week tops so when it happens, it's like he's mad for it and gets straight down to penetration.

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 15:03:35

Sorry x post

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 15:04:40

I have been wish as I said I can't see myself having this sex life forever but need to weigh up everything else I guess

Wishihadabs Sun 03-Mar-13 15:09:41

Wow at getting up to anything with a 9 week old never mind once a week !

TheUndesireable Sun 03-Mar-13 16:06:04

No definitely not once a week at the mo, I meant in general smile

goodnightlove Sun 03-Mar-13 16:54:35

mirai - DH (and past partners) take their weight 90% of the time. I don't mind a bit of squashing now and then!

badinage - if choosing a partner were as simple as dotting the i's and crossing the t's at the outset then there'd hardly be a reason for the relationships board grin You raise a valid point though.

To be brutally honest, which is what this thread is all about after all, i found my previous sexual partners (and indeed my previous husband) only ok to middling in the looks dept., compared to myself. In bed with them i felt relaxed and confident. If they were crap in bed i'd not bother again. With my DH, however, i have always been a little in awe of him in the looks dept. The first couple of years (and i cringe to write this) it was just bloody marvelous having sex with him, because i do find him amazingly sexy. I could watch him reading out the telephone directory and get horny. As the years time has gone on i've realised i need a bit more than just to be with him having sex. It's as simple as that really. I was naive i suppose. I wouldn't go back and un marry him though.

Fallenangle - i may be wrong, but i don't get a strong feeling that posters here are mainly only doing vanilla, missionary sex. Am i wrong? Personally i find my DH comes faster with me on top. Unless we really have been at it like rabbits recently - on holiday for eg. It's his favorite position and he finds it particularly stimulating.

I have orgasmed on the bottom, standing up and on all fours, but it is rare and more down to luck than judgement. We have only orgasmed together with me on top, i think.

thedoctrineofsnatch,

The OP's complaint relates to things not being done to her / not being done to her properly.

It fits right in to the old-fashioned notion that sex is something men do to women (the implication being that men are responsible for making all the running).

A man faced with such a situation is basically obliged to commit at least some of the sins described on this thread if he (hardly unreasonably) wants to orgasm.

Surely if you want good sex you need to be involved - and I don't mean simply to the extent of telling your partner what to do / where to touch ect.

Oh, and what fallenangle said at 12:06:32.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 03-Mar-13 17:58:01

The OP is very happy with her DH and mentioned a man who hurt her when penetrating her because she wasn't wet, then asked her if she was a virgin because she was dry.

And you get sense of entitlement on HER part from that?

Okey-doke.

badinage Sun 03-Mar-13 18:11:21

Quite, Doctrine.....

I see what you mean Goodnight Love, but I guess for me, I couldn't ever have imagined falling that hard for a bloke who wasn't great in the sack. It just depends what are your most crucial boxes to tick, doesn't it? I wrote a post recently about this I think. For me, the most important boxes were shared values, kindness, sense of humour, someone who really 'got me' and who was a good communicator - and who was compatible sexually. But things like money and earning power didn't bother me a jot, because I knew I'd earn my own and would be financially independent what ever happened. I know for me personally, a relationship where the sex wasn't good would have been a disaster waiting to happen, so it was something I'd never have compromised on.

cronullansw Sun 03-Mar-13 22:37:33

Currently on the front page there is a thread about female sex and orgasms.

Some random statements made therein include;

I don't bother with foreplay, it' all about penetration for me.......

I need foreplay for ages, maybe an hour or so......

I never come through penetration......

I come multiple times through penetration......

I have giving oral......

I love giving oral..........

Making any senses here? Everyone is different, talk, communicate. Men can't be expected to be any good if everyone is so different.

Charliefox has it right; if you are good and enjoying it, then this enthusiasm rubs off, fnarr fnrr, so to speak.

Seriously, some here have been unhappy with all of their partners, some have been happy with all of their partners, there is a common denominator there.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 03-Mar-13 22:58:38

I have a sneaking suspicion that some people think a woman who expects good sex and is pissed off about not getting it, is a bit of an uppity bitch altogether, Doctrine, never mind a little bit entitled...

abbyfromoz Sun 03-Mar-13 23:08:46

Hehe only read a few from this post but some of the descriptions are hilarious... In a dark sort of way. Must say i have had my fair share of bad sex. Dh is guilty. I would much rather give him a bj than have intimacy... How sad is that? No matter how many times i ask puhleeeease dont tweak my nips- it does NOTHING but make me seethe in fury and lose any ounce of mojo i mustered up- its like they have a mind of their own those hands! It just feels like he's achieving his ultimate goal of having an orgasm- and any connection with the human making that achievable aka me - is gone...

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 03-Mar-13 23:15:59

Abby, that makes me sad for you. Have you always felt it was a bit impersonal with DH (have I interpreted you right)?

(on a practical note - keep your bra on during sex?)

abbyfromoz Sun 03-Mar-13 23:23:51

Sorry i made it sound so dire. Although sometimes i really feel sad for me too hmm He's a loving husband and really does try.... I remember trying to talk to him years ago but he deflected on me (i guess he felt it was an attack on his ego) we've since had therapy but the damage was pretty much done... Sex... Blah!
Good call on the bra but he always takes them off- says it will make him cum quicker... And i that means its over quicker i would rather oblige...
Reading this back it all sounds pretty horrible!! But that's life!!

getmeoutofthismadhouse Sun 03-Mar-13 23:42:04

I met a guy last week and the thought of having sex with him again turns me cold. He had NO idea . I came home sore all over . He was so heavy handed and hadn't a clue. I actually would describe it similar to Flurp , doing press ups on me but he was pulling at my shoulder and doing a shaking movement at the same time . Then proceeds to keep asking me "do you like it baby, am I doing it for ya" over and over !! In my head I was thinking OMG what the hell ... I couldn't take more than a few minutes my shoulder was in agony !! I LOVE sex and was hoping to have a few good sessions last weekend , I did EVERYTHING I could to avoid it in the end !!
NOW I know why every ex he had cheated!! I actually feel really embarrassed for him coz I imagine he's had women not be too nice to him about his lack of bedroom skills . Seriously he was 29 and it was like goin with a virgin !!

getmeoutofthismadhouse Sun 03-Mar-13 23:51:22

I had this from a article recently, it refers to me totally . Its about how a woman orgasms:
 i also need to feel that i am totally in love with him and trust him, and believe that he's in love with me. the first orgasm is amazing but the second is mind blowing. i need two orgasms. i don't think i'm much different than most women. women know what they want and if they don't take charge and get it or discover it they will not be satisfied. for women, its very much a MENTAL thing. the woman has to feel comfortable, and for most women, this means a certain element of love and trust is present. her emotions will come into play too. can she channel her anger, rage into sex when mad at her partner? when happy with him? women have to be comfortable with their emotional state and find its relevance to sex with their partner. yes i know...very complicated. and you men are so simple. here are some simple (albeit difficult) tactics for making a woman happy in bed: 1. make her feel adored and loved 2. give her a lot of reasons to trust you in the course of a relationship 3. be patient 4. dont give her more than a drink or two of alcohol (or her mind will be too inebrieated to engage in the sex mentality) 5. tell her she can have her way with you. let her know you aim to please and the sex is all about her (because if she enjoys it, you will too!)if you do these 5 things, i almost gurantee you'll have a happy, sex addicted woman.

cronullansw Mon 04-Mar-13 00:48:40

Abbyfromoz; I would much rather give him a bj than have intimacy...

Have intimacy? Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude here, but wow. sad

abbyfromoz Mon 04-Mar-13 08:44:07

Totally agree with madhouse! Add 'never compare partner to past sexual experiences or porn' to that list!!
Cronullan- i don't think you're being rude. I agree it's sad. I'm not saying i don't crave intimacy! Just not his particular brand of it hmm
And it's a horrible situation to be in when you love someone.

Frizzbonce Mon 04-Mar-13 11:38:24

goodnight and Snatch - thank you! As you put so well I wasn't being entitled, and I don't honestly think I expected the man to guess through telepathy but when you DO explain and show enthusiasm and he still looks at you as though you're a wind up toy that doesn't work properly, you get frustrated.

Somebody asked why we stay with men who don't fulfil us sexually and I think it's a really valid question. In my case, everything else worked well - we got on well and were friends. (He became very controlling after a while but that's another story) I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't think that not enjoying sex much was a good enough reason to end the relationship. Also I'd been brought up to ignore my feelings so the little voice inside me saying: This isn't working was easily squashed in day to day life. I would tell myself that sex wasn't that important. My ex would then insist on giving me erotic massages. It sounds great but I hate massage but he would insist and I would lie there on my front, as relaxed as a piece of sheet metal while he rubbed and poked and prodded. Then he would rub away at my fanjo. It might have worked but he kept glancing up at me expectantly (I felt as though I was expected to hold up a Score Card) - 'are we there yet?' It didn't help either that he would tell me how lucky I was that he still fancied me.

Anyway when we finally split and a while later I met my DH it was like - a new world. My DH said he got his pleasure from mine and I was thinking - yeah yeah but when I told him that I needed a light touch - he paid attention and concentrated and I started to feel that he really did want to turn me on. It wasn't a means to an end which is what I'd always felt before. Up to that point (sorry for tmi) I had needed a load of lube and thought - well it's because I'm older. Nothing to do with it. I just wasn't turned on.

CartedOff Mon 04-Mar-13 12:31:33

I had the same thing with friendship and getting on so well feeling like it was enough. And this was for multiple partners. I thought that I was incapable of having amazing sex and that the issue was me. It was a complete and utter shock when I started having casual sex with someone I had only met a few times and he was more generous and skilled than any of my long-term relationships. I felt briefly angry about it all, but more at myself than anything else. I should have dumped the bad sex-havers. I couldn't get over how different it could be with someone who gave a damn about my satisfaction. I found a lot of the things I thought I didn't enjoy were actually amazing when done by someone with a bit of subtlety and patience. Who knew, eh?

Hairylurker Tue 05-Mar-13 00:40:04

It's not just a male thing. I've had sex with a few women who were absolutely crap in bed, expecting it to be done to them rather than a participatory activity, and they had no idea about how the male body worked. Men like foreplay too, if its done right. And this business about men going to sleep afterwards - you may have noticed that the male and female orgasm are quite different. Yes men can generally come every time, women need more complex stimulation and circumstance, but, and again in general, the male orgasm is nothing like as powerful or renewable as the female. Can you feel the envy!? What men do get is an endorphin rush post-orgasm, often a delicious but delicate experience, best enjoyed in stillness and silence. Perhaps that's what all these ungrateful men are doing when they appear to roll over and go to sleep? It would be worth asking. But I do completely fail to understand the men largely described above. After Masters and Johnson, Human Sexual Response, published in 1966, there is no excuse not to know better.

TheUndesireable Tue 05-Mar-13 10:02:34

Interesting Hairy I don't really mind the whole falling asleep after as I'm usually tired anyway.

What annoys me about my P is he knows I needs clitoral stimulation to come, yet he's stingy with oral, his hands and I can tell he's uncomfortable when I've used a bullet to help myself along hmm not sure what the fuck he wants really. Maybe a blow up doll?

Gah.

Hopingtobehappy Tue 05-Mar-13 10:22:41

I havent read all the posts yet, so apologies if this has already been said.

I dont think that in a long term relationship 'bad sex' can necessarily be put down to the man. If you are not happy, then take over and make things better!

I have always initiated what I want from sex. No man would ever get to 'twiddle my nipples and check whether I was ready' because he would probably be handcuffed to the bed and blindfolded whilst I played with him, teased him and told him what to do to me!

I watch and read porn and I get lots of new ideas from it!

I loe sex and I hope that never changes, I would not be able to have a relationship with a man who didnt feel the same.

Hopingtobehappy Tue 05-Mar-13 10:29:46

'It's not just a male thing. I've had sex with a few women who were absolutely crap in bed, expecting it to be done to them rather than a participatory activity, and they had no idea about how the male body worked'

Thats how I have read a few of the posts on here and its quite sad really.

Knowing how the male body works and what to do to make a man beg you not to stop is such a powerful thing it turns me on almost more than sex itself !

Foreplay doesnt just include touching each other either, texts, emails, phone calls, leaving notes, prolonging touching each other... sex is such an amazing thing, its such a shame not everybody enjoys it!

(im really horny now!)

ButternutSquish Wed 06-Mar-13 18:07:08

My DP finishes way too quickly, think seconds, but that's ok. He gets so excited seeing me aroused that he almost can't help himself. Every time, and I mean every time after coming he will stimulate me to orgasm, without complaint or without me asking. Sometimes I say no, because I know it takes a while and I'm not feeling it. He was taught to do this by an ex g/f and I am eternally thankful to her. He says my pleasure is his pleasure, and I believe him

Deepbreathsandbreathe Wed 06-Mar-13 23:09:23

So, can we turn this extremely interesting, funny and informative thread around... Men will more than likely have an orgasm during sex, whatever the build up. Women need a longer time to become aroused. Obviously both need to know how the other's anatomy works, and it seems that many don't. I have never watched a partner masturbate. I have asked am curious that I do it properly for him? Do men care once they're in the mood, or is any fiddling erotic? Do I get the bits that feel good for him? From a personal perspective, men do not want to be told they have absolutely no bleeding idea where it feels best for a woman, and take it as a personal thing that, as a natural born stud, they do not need to be told otherwise. However, putting the shoe back on the other foot, a wallop of KY on and everything feels fantastically dirty for both sexes, but without that I'm not entirely sure I arouse him in the way he would do if he was masturbating, which I would find instructive to watch as surely it's how we all know how our own bodies respond... And, no, I've never had a partner that would let me watch, and it's something I've respected. I appreciate it's a very private thing, but perhaps instructive?

thecapitalsunited Thu 07-Mar-13 00:04:12

I had a long term relationship with someone who used to wipe me off because I got too wet sad Everything was just about him and how he wanted things. I was young and naive and put up with it.

I nearly cried the first time I slept with DP and everything he did was about my pleasure. Especially since, as he was a bit drunk and tired, he couldn't stay hard. I'd never come across a man who was so unbothered about his own pleasure that he'd make sure his partner was satisfied even though he was obviously not going to orgasm. DP is the only man who has ever been able to make me orgasm through penetration and I think its because he makes me feel so relaxed and wanted.

DeepBreaths interesting my shit in the sack ex never let me watch him masturbating but DP is way more relaxed and will quite happily masturbate at the end of a particularly satisfying session if I'm too weak at the knees to be much help. Using me as a wanking aid just doesn't seem to enter his head.

Darkesteyes Thu 07-Mar-13 00:45:06

capital he sounds lovely. Has he got any brothers. grin

goodnightlove Thu 07-Mar-13 08:05:41

You raise an interesting point capital. re: watching my DH masturbate, i've asked him to show me, but he wont grin I'd find it very erotic and informative, but hey ho. As you say, that's entirely his choice to make.

I've talked to my DH and other partners about the differences between how i touch them and how they touch themselves. I've learned allot, some of the things my DH has shared has been common to a few other partners i've had, some are more unique to him, as you would expect.

One thing is the fact that my touch is a little on the gentle side, and i need to be a bit firmer (i do have a very light touch) and so i make a conscious effort to be a bit rougher than comes naturally to me. Rougher than i would be with myself.

DH once told me about some banter he had at work with a group of guys where they were discussing their sex lives and it was generally agreed upon that the way their partners touched them was good on the whole, but felt a bit like 'having a wank with your left hand'! which made me smile.

capital also you reminded me about how my XH (to whom i got married very young) used to always leap up straight after sex and hurry to the bathroom to wash/wipe himself sad

My DH may be a bit clumsy with me, struggles with finishing a bit quickly, and can be a little set in his ways - but he is passionate, loving, loyal and kind, will happily lay in the wet patch all night without feeling the need to clean off, and never shows any displeasure at getting all wet and juicy with me grin

EmmaThorn Thu 07-Mar-13 09:00:30

I think the culture and history of women in the home and workplace has a lot to do with this. Women for many generations have been subservient to men and its developed an subconscious mind-set for both men and women where the man is expected to be the leader, primary earner, hunter-gatherer etc. Women need to be taught and believe to stand up for themselves - not just in bed, but in life in general. Most of the relationships I had before getting married were driven by the guy taking the first step - but that just empowers men to think that this is what women want. Men and women are equal - if a woman isn't getting what she wants or enjoys or needs (whether in bed or elsewhere) she should feel empowere to do something about it.

thecapitalsunited Thu 07-Mar-13 10:17:59

Darkesteyes, a twin brother! grin

I do think it matters how much a man is willing to talk about what he wants in bed. If he can't talk about or show you how he likes to be touched, how are you going to get that dialogue? I think it has to go both ways, we should feel able to talk to our partners about what we want and they should talk to us. I dare say if you are used to it then that avoids the 'school teacher' effect. Unless that's what you like wink

Fallenangle Thu 07-Mar-13 13:37:47

Now capital, have you compared notes with his twin's DP if not, why not?, are they equally caring in bed?

Darkesteyes Thu 07-Mar-13 13:58:43

Ooh a twin. Now thats an answer i was not expecting wine grin

Estherbelle Thu 07-Mar-13 14:09:18

Capital, I was thinking how much your DP sounds like mine and then you say he has a twin brother - well my DP has a twin brother too - the mind boggles!

thecapitalsunited Thu 07-Mar-13 14:48:27

I'm imaging MNers beating a path to DP's twin's door now! He is single grin

Fallenangle Thu 07-Mar-13 19:53:37

I won't be joining the queue as i am happy with my own DP. Now, if they were identical twins, I would be very tempted to fall further.

boomoohoo Fri 08-Mar-13 08:50:43

Have been reading this thread with interest. I have a loving and giving dp who gets off on my enjoyment. But all ex's (of which there were 2 significants) were totally entitled and selfish. Have been with dp a yr now and am only now trying to unlearn that my pleasure is as valid as his..

Have a q for you all, how complimentary are your dps in bed? It's the one thing I feel is lacking in my relationship. I don't think he's ever told me I'm sexy, or beautiful. sad I feel needy for needing to hear this. I spoke to him about it last night but he just said it's who he is.

Pilgit Fri 08-Mar-13 09:10:35

it's a lot to do wit society attitude. Rape in marriage was only recognised by the law in the UK in 1991 (yes, 1991 - not a typo). Up until then marriage was considered to imply consent. This institutionalised a mans pleasure as being more important. Thankfully that is not the case any more but a lot of people need to catch up. It's also a lot to do with how people view their position in a relationship - if they are loving and given in bed they will be in life - selfish and entitled, they will be everywhere in their relationship. Or is that just my experience?

Darkesteyes Fri 08-Mar-13 15:26:58

This institutionalised a mans pleasure as being more important

Pilgit you have an excellent point there.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 08-Mar-13 15:39:03

Yes Pilgit that is a good point.

Actually thinking about this, that links in with the concept of "consent". A woman doesn't have to be actively participating in sex, for it to legally not be defined as rape. She just has to "consent".

And what does consent mean? To allow, permit, acquiesce, agree.

Not "actively participate" much less "enthusiastically participate".

The bar is extremely low for men to be permitted to enter a woman's body, without it being a criminal offence.

So in law, the idea that a woman doesn't actually need to be actively participating, let alone enthusiastically enjoying, is enshrined. It's institutional. And at some level, that idea must permeate some men's minds - it doesn't matter if she's not enjoying it or doesn't really want to do it, as long as she allows me to without actively telling me not to, I can wank into her. (Because for some men, that's what sex is really - not something which is a participatory activity which you do with someone, it's something you do to or on or in something or someone.)

Fallenangle Fri 08-Mar-13 15:42:15

boo I don't think my DH tells me I am sexy or beautiful very often, -- although I am stunning-- but he does occassionaly say, unprompted, things like 'your bum looks great in those jeans' we have been together for seventeen years though. I tell him nice things too. Do you tell your DP he is gorgeous?

Fallenangle Fri 08-Mar-13 15:44:04

Repost so I don't appear to be an arrogant cow. boo I don't think my DH tells me I am sexy or beautiful very often, although I am stunning but he does occassionaly say, unprompted, things like 'your bum looks great in those jeans' we have been together for seventeen years though. I tell him nice things too. Do you tell your DP he is gorgeous?

Darkesteyes Fri 08-Mar-13 16:42:00

Fastidia if MN had a like button id be pressing it for that post. Absolutely agree.

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 08-Mar-13 17:16:47

smile

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 09-Mar-13 00:32:25

FB I do have a problem, similar to yours, with consent being some kind of (very low) baseline to sex, but I'm not sure what other legal definition would work.

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