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Please help: What would you do?

(128 Posts)
babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 10:36:47

What would you do if you had an ex partner like this, who had virtually no relationship with your child and you had been court ordered to present your child for direct unsupervsed contact.

Verbally abusive such as screaming in your face that you're a f****g c**t and that he's sick of hearing about the f****g baby while you're carrying that child.

Emotionally abusive...threatening you if you see any friends family anyone etc etc etc

Physically threatening (over and over) ..standing over you screaming, with his fists clenched that he's going to put you in hospital, put your head through the f****g window, kill you while you're curled up in a ball crying

Sexually abusive ..while you're still crying and curled up in a ball forces you to have sex

Who also pays nothing in child support despite being court ordered to do so.

Would you break the order and risk enforcement?

Flisspaps Fri 22-Feb-13 10:44:04

I would seek legal advice, but ultimately yes - I wouldn't give my children to that.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 11:40:04

Thanks Fliss thanks
I have and I've appealed but it was refused. My old solicitor's unofficial advice is to not comply as they feel I have no choice.

I don't know what will ultimately happen though and its terrifying and I guess my recourse then would be the European Court of Human rights.

I just wondered what others would do really.

CaptChaos Fri 22-Feb-13 11:44:22

On what basis was he granted unsupervised access?

Surely if you raised all these points in court Cafcass would have recommended supervised access to start with?

Personally, I wouldn't comply, but be ready for the fallout.

pollyblue Fri 22-Feb-13 11:49:55

agree with Capt, I would not comply and don a tin hat for the fallout.

Out of interest, how old is your child? Once they reach a certain age I believe they are able to state if they want to have contact, and their wishes have to be taken into account.

Also do you have any police logs of incidents of violence against you, or any witnesses to this?

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 11:51:09

Ex refused supervised. He said in court numerous times that he would rather never see DS again than see him in a contact centre and smirked that 'that would just have to be the way it was'.

So the twat of a judge, sorry but that's how I feel, ordered unsupervised.

MrsTomHardy Fri 22-Feb-13 11:56:50

No advice but want to offer support....

What a twat that judge sounds. I have to say I wouldn't hand my child over to a moron like your ex either. But not sure what the fallout would be as ever been in that situation....

How old is DS?

jayho Fri 22-Feb-13 11:57:57

Appeal again and refuse contact while you go through the process, stall stall stall.

When is contact due to take place and for how long?

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 11:58:29

Sorry polly I crossed posted, he's 4.5.

I have my eldely neighbour who used to hear him and found it so distressing that she used to go to the shed at the end of the garden to get away from it. She wrote a statement to that effect and also a second one that he had gone round to intimidate her into withdrawing it. The court disregarded this reason

Also my friend witnessed him threatening to kill me. They called the police 6 times between the initial call and the time the police arrived and the transcript of those calls was read in court and my friend was clearly. The judge refused to allow their statement as they did not want their address made public..pretty understandable and a previous judge had said that was fine and had disclosed it to the court. In the appeal the judge said previous judge made a mistake but 'wasn't to know' confused

I could go on and on..there was so much evidence against him..

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 12:01:31

Sorry my last post wasn't very clear
My friend was clearly terrified and they didn't want ex to have access to their address but they had given it to the court separately. It just wasn't on the statement.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 12:03:04

MrsTom and Jayho thankyou.

MrsTomHardy Fri 22-Feb-13 12:05:16

How often is he supposed to have contact and is it overnight?

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 12:09:37

Every other weekend, over night friday and saturday. DS barely knows who he is and hasn't seen him for nearly 2 years.

Lueji Fri 22-Feb-13 12:10:39

I'd take fresh legal advice on this.
The solicitor may feel obliged to tell you to comply, but you can ask what would happen if you didn't comply with the court ordered access.

One stance is that you are frightened of him, so don't want to go anywhere near him.
Nor your friends and family.
So, how would the handovers happen?

What has happened to him for not paying child maintenance?

(something I may need to consider later in the year, if twat ex is granted unsupervised access too)

fuzzywuzzy Fri 22-Feb-13 12:15:07

I wouldn't either.

Was there an actual contact hearing? Has there been CAFCASS officers involved?

You must be terrified.

MrsTomHardy Fri 22-Feb-13 12:16:13

Can you go to Csa over maintenance?
He should be supporting his DS financially.

Why the hell did the judge order overnights if DS hasn't seen his dad for 2 years...that's madness!

It is mad...DP didn't see his DD for three months with no issues other than her getting back at him for meeting me (which happened long after their relationship was over), and even then he was not granted immediate overnight stays with DD who was 2.5 at the time. He used to give her back at 6pm Sat and pick her up again Sun morning.

I would refuse to hand him over, I know it's against the law but someone has to stand up for this child and the court clearly aren't doing that.

izzyizin Fri 22-Feb-13 12:26:38

If you haven't done so already, give Rights of Women a call on 0207 251 6577 - the advice line is open until 2pm today.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 12:34:02

Lueji my old solicitor has 'unofficially' told me not to comply. She's been brilliant and basically told me to lie low. She thinks ex is dangerous and that we've been horribly let down by the system. But ex is pursuing me aggressively and I'm really really scared.

Nothing has happened to him for not paying. He was court ordered to pay as he pays no income tax (hence why I couldn't go through CSA). The court are aware he earns and pays no tax and that he's broken the order to pay child support but they are not interested.

Yes there was hearing and judge disregarded virtually all the evidence and also ex's behaviour in court which was horrendous. It sounds stupid but it was like being abused all over again.

The original order was initially for 2 saturday daytimes then going into the overnights

Lueji Fri 22-Feb-13 12:45:03

It doesn't sound stupid at all.

Any possibility that your DC will have a fever at next supposed handover?

Imogencodpiece Fri 22-Feb-13 12:47:42

I would not give my child to that man regardless of the court order. You need to appeal the decision.

Surely nobody could blame you for keeping him away from his father.

Seek legal advice asap OP about appealing and stalling as much as you can.

When is supposed to be handover day? Can you be elsewhere with friends/family so that he cannot come round to the house and try and force you?

Lueji Fri 22-Feb-13 12:53:37

The last time ex wanted to take DS on holiday with him (huge risk of child abduction to another country) and was threaning all sorts, I just reported all the threats to the police, then kept DS away (he was already on holiday with GPs) and myself too.

Personally, I'd find all possible reasons for handover not to occur.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 12:56:18

The original order was made in August and I appealed straight away but it was refused. Since then I have been stalling and stalling and basically not going to the enforcement hearings that have taken place. This is what my old solicitor told me unofficially to do. She's worried if I go to court they will slap an enforcement order on me, so she said to basically lie low

Ex isn't allowed to know where we live and that's an order form the high court although the lower court keeps threatening that if I don't go to court they will disclose it to him.. but I'm really hoping they wouldn't be that stupid.

My friends think I should go to the paper with our story sad

fuzzywuzzy Fri 22-Feb-13 12:56:34

Call women's aid for advice and also the number further down for rights of women.

Does he have a police record for domestic violence?

I'd refuse contact on grounds you are not willing to place yourself at risk by meeting your ex for handover as your in fear for your life.

Can you ring social services ask them if there's anything they can do? Although in my experience they won't touch a case which has gone thro courts with a barge pole.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 13:04:50

His ex had reported him for punching her daughter in the face and I got hold of that official court statement outlining what had happened. My barrister told me it was an open document or something (can't remember the terminology) and could therefore be used as eividence but the judge disallowed it. No reason.

I actually told the high court judge that I was too scared to do handovers and he said that was 'entirely understandable' but still refused the application.

fuzzywuzzy Fri 22-Feb-13 13:09:51

You need to start reporting him to the police, anything he does you need to take it to the police.

In the meantime lie low, ignore & if it goes to court ask for a CAFCASS assessment.

If you don't have official record of his violence ime courts disregard your allegations. You need to go to the police and GP and get your child's school onside.

HeySoulSister Fri 22-Feb-13 13:10:06

You not had a section 7 report?

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 13:25:22

He's repeatedly taking it back to court sad and I don't know how much longer i can fend it off.
Bit more information..sorry to drip feed like this.
I phoned the NSPCC a year ago as I had concerns and wanted their advice. They called the police and during that interview I also mentioned the sexual abuse towards me. They couldn't do anything about DS as there wasn't enough evidence sad but they tried to encourage me to report him for rape. I couldn't go through with it though and I still don't know if I did the right thing. At the time I thought it would actually make it worse for us.

I have to go out know but will be back later. thanks so much

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 13:26:01

What's a section 7?

No fucking way. I'd take the fallout. And collect hard copies of all evidence!

Lueji Fri 22-Feb-13 14:11:02

My friends think I should go to the paper with our story

Maybe you should.
Or European Court, or MP.

HeySoulSister Fri 22-Feb-13 14:40:30

Section 7 is a cafcass welfare report!!

It's quite standard, can't believe you haven't had one done?

You didn't report anything, there is no historical reports to go by. Doesn't help you now, but THIS is why on dv threads it's important to report to authorities every single incident!!

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 15:56:09

I know I know sad. Both times the police were called to my house I didn't press charges sad so stupid ...oh the benefit of hindsight (but they are on record). However I was given an ex-parte non molestation order at the time and when ex broke it I did report him and he was arrested and charged and the police put us as high risk.

No I haven't had a section 7 report. The whole cafcass thing was awful and I complained as the officer had made so many mistakes. It went to the parliamentary ombudsman and they upheld my complaint in full and cafcass said that the officer in question had to be re-trained in DV. They didn't give me a new officer though and on the day of the hearing the judge said that he was not going to consider the complaint against cafcass at reason.

The cafcass offcer said in court he didn't believe me (he came up with the most stupid reason not to) but if he had he would have recommended no contact.

Judge disregarded that and wrote in his judgement that I had not challenged Cafcass (I had and it had been upheld in full by the PO) and that he was a well respected officer (ignoring that cafcass's own recommendations were that he was re-trained)

Sorry to witter on but there's just so much sad

Lueji I feel like that's my only option now.
Thanks phoenix

MrsTomHardy Fri 22-Feb-13 16:05:44

It sounds like you have been let down by so many people, the people who should be helping you sad

MrsBombastic Fri 22-Feb-13 16:09:03

I think you need a new solicitor, contact Cafcass and appeal again. xx

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 16:10:09

Thanks MrsTom. That's how I feel

PeppermintPasty Fri 22-Feb-13 16:16:16

Whereabouts are you bh? My boss is a fantastic family lawyer but I suspect you're not in my area. He may be able to recommend one if he knows your area. PM me if you think it would help.

Cherriesarelovely Fri 22-Feb-13 16:21:10

Wow, what an absolutely horrible situation you are in. Such a nightmare not only to have experienced that vile abuse and now not to be believed. Is he a very "charming" person on the outside who knows how to talk the talk? I have a friend going through something very similar with her ex and she has been in and out of court for years. They have finally agreed that her Ds doesn't have to go overnight to his dads, her DS is so terrified of him and so traumatised but the whole experience that he now has panic attacks (he is aged 8).

I think you are doing absolutely the right thing to protect your child and yourself. You have to carry on and then appeal again, there is no other way imo.

I feel so angry and upset on your behalf.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 20:52:05

Thanks Cherries so sorry about your friend and her poor DS. Its just so wrong sad
Yes he can be really 'charming' if he wants to be, but was really awful during the hearing, openly aggressive towards me, horrible attitude towards DS... the judge kept telling him to be quiet as he was 'damaging his case'. Its doesn't make any sense. Its like the judge intended to give him contact whatever confused

discrete Fri 22-Feb-13 21:01:42

TBH, it sounds like the real problem is that judge!

If he put in his statement something that is factually incorrect (about you not challenging CAFCASS), can you not appeal on those grounds?

Would you be able to report him for rape now? I feel like you need to go on the offensive a bit. Maybe talk to your solicitor about what you can take him to court over?

ImperialBlether Fri 22-Feb-13 21:14:08

Do you record him when he talks to you like that? Can you record on your phone? Do you physically see him or is it all on the phone? Does he send abusive messages via email? If you answer your phone it might be worthwhile turning it off so that he then emails or texts instead.

He sounds absolutely awful and I'd be looking at moving far, far away.

ImperialBlether Fri 22-Feb-13 21:14:46

First port of call for me would be my MP.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 22:02:45

Discrete the judge was awful. I'd go so far as saying he deliberately lied and twisted the truth beyond all recognition. Like you would never believe a judge would do that. I prepared an 18 page skeleton argument of where he had been factually incorrect, disallowed essential witnesses, used judges discretion with no back up and all the things he hadn't considered for the high court of appeal.

I was invited for an oral hearing and the high court judge basically said to the factual mistakes that there was no independent verification, yet *everything all the documents I had referred to had already been lodged with the court confused...i.e the ombudsman report etc etc...then to everything else that 'unfortunately' the high court had to rely on the judgement of the lower court and that it would be heartbreaking for the 'mother' to go through and appeal and lose confused and so refused the appeal..but then went on to order that under no circumstances was our address to be disclosed. The other, lower court judge, has now retired.

imperial soon after I got the non mol I moved away, two counties, to get away from him and I've no direct contact with him since. I'm not on the electoral role and I've changed all my numbers and car even. He doesn't have our address and there was another order made by another judge aside from the high court that he is not allowed to find it. That was made due to his behaviour which he admitted to the police when he was arrested like he was proud of it.

But the fact find judge (now retired) ordered direct contact for me to hand DS over at a motorway service station sad

Discrete I'm just scared of doing that and the CPS not thinking there's enough evidence to go with it and him using it as another stick to beat me with

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 22:07:31

Oh sorry I also meant to say, i went to the high court of appeal representing myself as by then I was technically back at work and could no longer claim legal aid... but with my old solicitor helping me with advice and stuff if I needed it. It was like I was this little person that was no real threat and just not worth rocking the boat for if that makes sense sad

izzyizin Fri 22-Feb-13 22:14:19

Did you manage to call the Rights of Women helpline this afternoon?

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 22:19:17

Not yet Izzy but I did look at the childrens legal services website and I'll give them a call on monday and then womansaid

WafflyVersatile Fri 22-Feb-13 23:26:45

Has your ex got photos of the judge with a prostitute locked in his safe or something? confused That just sounds mad.

babyhammock Fri 22-Feb-13 23:58:12

I know waffly confused.
I looked into judicial complaints but they're very specific in terms of the judge being racist or sexist in his comments, nothing about the judge making it up as he goes along... that would then be for the court of appeal...and I did that.

My old solicitor told me that he had a reputation for being a woman hating misogynist. How can that be allowed to happen.

discrete Sat 23-Feb-13 20:45:09

That sounds absolutely awful.

TBH, I'd piss off abroad, and write the whole bloody lot of them off for good!

Cherriesarelovely Sat 23-Feb-13 22:04:53

It is totally and utterly bizarre that the court have agreed that you must go to such lengths to protect yourself and yet they tell you you must hand your child over!!! Once again, I am so angry on your behalf. I just do not agree at all that people like your ex deserve to be given "rights" as parents. Hope you are ok.

babyhammock Sat 23-Feb-13 23:25:41

Discrete I dream of that.
Thanks Cherries I felt like the high court of appeal judge did that to give us extra protection but just wouldn't go against the other judge by giving me permission to appeal. He also knew that I wouldn't comply yet said nothing about me having to..confused

I was supposed to be in court Friday, I obviously didn't go as I'm not responding (on old solicitor's advice)... not sure what else to do.
I've prepared something though for if/when they catch up with me, which basically argues that to force me to present DS for contact in these circumstances, is a violation of my parental responsibility to protect DS, and a violation of DS’s right to be safe.

Additionally to punish me, when I am just trying to protect my child and there is no proof that my account of the abuse is not true (plenty that it is) and that I am therefore doing any wrong doing in protecting DS, cannot be right.

I guess I just have to wait and see what happens next.

discrete Sun 24-Feb-13 20:45:15

Good for you. Stand your ground.

babyhammock Sun 24-Feb-13 21:24:37

Thanks thanks

FarBetterNow Sun 24-Feb-13 22:01:51

I know this is a bit of an odd question, but is your ex partner a mason?

babyhammock Sun 24-Feb-13 22:49:56

Farbetter not an odd question at all. No he isn't as far as I know but the judgement was as though he had paid the judge. I'm not suggesting he did that at all, but that's how biased it was. It felt like whatever ex had done/said, it wouldn't have made any difference if that makes sense.

Rowanhart Sun 24-Feb-13 23:53:10

I don't want to freak you out here but I've seen a similar situation when eventually the child was taken from the mother as she refused to comply with court for several years. Father was given primary custody.

I say to you the advice I wish the mother has taken. Get as far away as possible. Try contacting your local woman'a refuge and see if they will help you hide.

Move away and legally change yours and DS surname

There is no point going to newspaper. They may run but it will be anonymous and it is likely to be used as evidence of y

Rowanhart Sun 24-Feb-13 23:53:42

Sorry. Cut off

You being unreasonable.

Just get as far away as possible.

FarBetterNow Mon 25-Feb-13 06:49:06

Please don't comply with the court order.
Izzyizin gives brilliant advice.
Hope you get help today.
Love and best wishes to you.

babyhammock Mon 25-Feb-13 09:44:39

Rowan that was my original plan but I stupidly stupidly put his name on the birth certificate. Ironically he didn't even want to come to get DS registered.
The upshot being that if I 'disappeared' he could put a seek and find order on me and, as I couldn't change DS's name, find me through him sad

A solicitor I was talking to at the time said I basically had two options. Either stay and fight or move to a non Haige convention country.

My old solicitor, who is helping atm said if I was renting that she'd say move now, but I have a mortgage and DS has just started reception and doing really well. That said, it's on my mind constantly. My worry is that if I did move and they found me, what then.

Farbetter thank you again. I shall phone them today

babyhammock Mon 25-Feb-13 09:47:48

Sorry Rowan*, I meant to ask. What happened with that case? How old was the child?

betterthanever Mon 25-Feb-13 15:07:41

Sadly you are not alone.
But there are people in the same poition all over the country not knowing where to turn.
Indiviually we have no chance, collectively we have more of a chance - but we are people who have a lot of responsibilies and are having to spend time and money on court - it is hard to make the steps forward that are needed to change the system. We need a plan... this can't carry on.

FarBetterNow Mon 25-Feb-13 20:37:02

How are you and how did you get on today?
Did you manage to contact any one about this?
I'm sorry I have no advice to offer, but there are others here who have fantastic legal knowledge and good hearts.

babyhammock Mon 25-Feb-13 23:02:43

Ah thanks FarBetter I spoke to the children's legal centre and basically my only option, aside from what I'm doing, is to apply for a variation on the order. Trouble is I'm still stuck with the judgement from that judge which will be at the heart of any variation.

Anyway I spoke with my old solicitor again and she still thinks I should carrying on lying low and hoping...that beng the lesser of the two evils. I still haven't spoken to womansaid, mainly though because I'm not sure what they could do.

better its how the law is applied. There's no accountability

FarBetterNow Tue 26-Feb-13 19:09:20

It seems totally mad.
I hope you and your child get the help you need.
Please carry on posting as you may get help from the wise women.

babyhammock Tue 26-Feb-13 20:57:48

FarBetter seriously thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind words. I'll let you know what happens x

Cherriesarelovely Tue 26-Feb-13 23:06:51

Also thinking of you and your Ds. I so hope you get some positive advice soon, it is so unfair that you have to live like this just to protect yourself and your child. You have been incredibly strong and brave.

babyhammock Wed 27-Feb-13 09:12:21

Thank you Cherries.
I felt totally broken when I posted this on friday, but you've all helped so much.

betterthanever Wed 27-Feb-13 11:37:16

One of the legally trained people may be able to help with this - but can you not appeal against a fact finding? especially as the judge has retiered and you have no way of making a complaint against them? Seems scary if you can't as people do have bad days and get things wrong. It seems unfair that you can't apply for a variation when you disagree with the fact finding.

NandH Wed 27-Feb-13 11:50:52

what would the enforcement be??

NandH Wed 27-Feb-13 11:58:15

I only ask because I'm in a simular situation... my ex hasn't got a court order tho and he would only be given supervised and he's ran off with dc before and he's recently come out of a mental hospital, I too put him on the birth certificate meaning no matter what he's done he'll always get access.

I received a letter from his solicitors which I havnt replied too about contact...

I'm moving away literally this weekend...not country but far enough that he won't want to travel that distance to see dc....

what is your enforcement if you don't follow your court order??

babyhammock Wed 27-Feb-13 12:16:01

I did appeal, to the high court with an 18 page skeleton argument of all the things the judge had been factually wrong on, hadn't considered, witnesses disallowed etc etc. I was refused permission but the high court judge wrote on that order that under no circumstances was our address to be revealed... So he effectively gave us protection from not complying (I told the high court judge I couldn't comply), or at least that was my impression, but wouldn't go against the other judge confused. However it meant I was stuck with the judgement. Therefore any variation, i will still have that judgement.

There is a contact order but currently with no enforcement attached to it. That is what my ex is trying to do atm, to get an enforcement attached to the order, oh and financial compensation.

NandH its sounds like you're totally doing the right thing. All I would say is cover your tracks and give no one your new address. Best of luck

NandH Wed 27-Feb-13 20:55:04

dear god you Poor lady! I hope it works out for you!

no I won't give out address, only people that know I'm going/have address is family, my own best friends don't even know sad

babyhammock Wed 27-Feb-13 22:00:56

NandH and you x

Cherriesarelovely Wed 27-Feb-13 22:06:09

I wish you the very best of luck NandH at your new address. I am so sorry that you, babyhammock and it would seem countless other women are having to go to these lengths to keep their child safe. You are brave mums. Thinking of you both.

WafflyVersatile Wed 27-Feb-13 22:23:21

Letter to your MP? I have no idea if that could help in any way but I can't see any harm.

FarBetterNow Thu 28-Feb-13 13:51:37

Just want to echo Cherriesarelovely's sentiments in wishing you brave women justice.
It is hard to believe that we are in the 21st century and have such a bizarre 'justice' system.
You may have already thought of changing your name - it is really quite easy by Deed Poll.
My Nan was married to a paedophile, he went to prison twice, but the law did not allow her to divorce him, but that was 1930.
She left him to keep her kids safe, but almost ended up in the workhouse.
Sorry - not suggesting that your Hs are paedophiles.

cestlavielife Thu 28-Feb-13 17:15:33

when was the last time he saw DS?
what happened on that occasion?
how long has it been since he saw DS?

i think that if you are reporting historic abuse(which is very valid) you dont have a more recent episode to hand, nor specific recent evidence that Ds is at risk? when was the last incident?

can you engineeer a handover in public place or with wtinesses to record any abuse at you? so that you can react immediately call police? and take ds away? then say you tried contact ?

ah i see -handover in motorway services - that isnt good is it? couldnt you engineer a more supervised contact in a different fixed location where he cant take him off in a car so easily... or someone to follow them? clutching at straws...

babyhammock Thu 28-Feb-13 20:38:36

Waffly you;d think so wouldn't you about writing to your MP, but they simply won't interfere with anything to do with the family courts. Its a closed system with virtually no accountability. I think if they do make an enforcement order my old solicitor says I should have grounds for human rights law in terms of right to a fair trial, homelife and also no punishment without crime. I'm really hoping it doesn't come to that though. Life stops when all this is going on and I want us to live properly now.

Cherries and FarBetter* thank you so much again. I was in such a state when I posted friday and I feel so much stronger now.

Cestlavie its been nearly 2 years. In terms of recent events, all I have is his behaviour in court which reflected his previous attitude to both of us. Nothing has changed. No remorse, no ability to consider DS's needs or welfare and as angry, aggressive and nasty as ever.

He's refusing supervised contact.. he's a man you see and as such doesn't 'have to prove nothink'

In any case the judge has already ignored so much evidence of what happened and so for me to put DS in such a situation to try and get more evidence which will more than likely be ignored too, is inconceivable.

I'm just going to stand completely firm and hope for the best.

what a horrible situation opsad honestly I'd never let him near my kids.

babyhammock Thu 28-Feb-13 22:15:56

Thanks HairyHand

cumfy Thu 28-Feb-13 22:45:47

What is the date of the last judgement (High court/ court of appeal) ?

You need to get any ECHR appeal in within 6 months of last domestic appeal, but you have to ensure all domestic appeals are exhausted.
I think you still have judicial review or supreme court appeal ?

I would definitely agree your DS's Article 4 and your Article 8 rights are being violated.

Once it gets to the ECHR it takes years and UK courts can't do anything.

You've been treated terribly and these judges are just closing rank; it's disgusting. They have no soul.angry

BerylStreep Thu 28-Feb-13 22:48:39

All I can suggest is run and hide. Preferably to another country.

Forget your mortgage - can you sell, or rent your house out?

BerylStreep Thu 28-Feb-13 22:49:54

Although Cumfy's idea seems better.

babyhammock Thu 28-Feb-13 22:59:10

Cumfy thanks so much for your post. I know I'm out of time wrt the last domestic appeal so I'm guessing my recourse would be to appeal on human rights grounds if they put an enforcement order on me obviously in the hope that the facts around the case will have to be heard to do that. Which I know means going to the UK high court again first.

That's exactly how it felt, like the judges were just closing rank.
Thank you again

babyhammock Thu 28-Feb-13 23:07:29

Sorry Cumfy what is the supreme court appeal? I was told by the administrator at high court that that was it as far as my appeal went.

Beryl not a day goes by when i don't think that. I've not been responding to the court and they actually sent a court bailiff out to serve me. We hid though so he didn't manage to. But when I knew they were going to that, it was pretty awful. I felt like I couldn't blank the situation at all, which is how I normally deal with it, and was permanently on edge feeling like I couldn't leave our house without checking first.

cumfy Fri 01-Mar-13 00:02:45

Supreme court, but there's only a 14 day time limit for an appeal from the date of the High Court decision (the same as the court of appeal).

As I understand it, if these deadlines are missed you can't then appeal to the ECHR as missing an appeal date, doesn't count as exhausting domestic remedy.

The only "loophole" could be whatever you were told at the high court made you genuinely believe at that point you had no further route of appeal.

Did they give you any further documents with the judgement (or any other time) which detailled routes of further appeal ?

You would also have to be careful at what point you then learnt of further routes of appeal as that would be when the ECHR 6 month clock would start "ticking".

spiritedaway Fri 01-Mar-13 00:11:39

And i agree with Jayhoo. . Stall! And when you do, and when Cafcass get involved do not mention child support. They may just tick the aggrieved mother/vindictive bitch box

shadesofwhite Fri 01-Mar-13 00:17:53

grin There is no way I would allow my DC near that animal. What is wrong with that judge? What more evidence do they want? He literally punched his ex's daughter and the court is allowing 'un-supervised' contact??!! Jesus!

Sorry OP but If I was you, I'd do anything to stop that monster anywhere near my child, including going to the paper! says the lady awaiting STBXH who nearly ended my life to sue me fo full custody I'm absolutely petrified having read your story. I'm so sorry babyHammock I sincerely wish you all the best and I hope you'll conquer this battle. thanks

babyhammock Fri 01-Mar-13 09:27:38

Cumfy thank you for that link. I also googled it after I got your first message. I had no idea you could do that. But yes they don't give you much time. I know it was a mad rush to prepare everything for the appeal court.

The judgement was handed down on 17th August as was the order that was made on the back of that judgement for unsupervised contact.

I had an oral hearing at the High Court of Appeal on the 6th September when the judge told me he would not give me permission to appeal.

I got an email with that order attached a few days later and a letter with the order about a week after that. There was nothing in there other than the order and nothing that detailed any further routes of appeal. I phoned the High Court the day after the oral hearing to see if there was anything else I could pursue and was actually told there was nothing further I could do.

At the time I did wonder if I'd have grounds for appeal with the European Court but I was just so totally broken and exhausted with the whole process I couldn't find the strength to pursue it. Life stops when all this is going on.

But because the high court added that our address was not to be disclosed what ever (another similar order with a penile notice attached had also been made by the lower court earlier on during the proceedings), my old solicitor thought that as we had that the safest option would be to lie low, not respond and see what happened. That was obviously off the record.

If they do catch up with me and try to enforce, would I be able to appeal that on the grounds of right to a fair trial or no punishment with evidence of guilt?

Spirited Thank you. He was court ordered to pay child support and I haven't and don't have any intention of trying to recover any of the money. In my mind its just another example of his disregard for DS's welfare and his 'entitledness' in claiming financial compensation from me. But yes, I will continue to stall.

Shades thank you and so sorry you're in a similar situation. I really really hope it goes well for you. But no I won't be complying. My old solicitor is not actually sure what they could do to make me either, esp given the circumstances.

betterthanever Fri 01-Mar-13 12:52:20

Praying every day babyhammock that nothing comes through your door.

babyhammock Fri 01-Mar-13 14:08:16

Thanks Better, I've all my fingers crossed for you too.

cumfy Fri 01-Mar-13 14:12:02

If you took the 6th September judgement as the starting point that gives 6th March as the deadline for ECHR.

Clearly though there is the issue of what discussions you had with solicitor who must have known about routes of appeal versus the information the court gave you indicating there were no further routes of appeal. However if you are satisfied you were genuinely unaware of further appeal rights:

In terms of appealing to the ECHR, there is an ECHR Application form, but since time is tight so long as you post a letter (Airsure/InternationalSignedFor) by 6th March (in fact you can date 6th and post 7th) indicating you wish to appeal and outlining the circumstances/nature of your appeal then you should be in time and would have a few weeks or so to put the application proper in. Also attach the final judgement.

It's very useful to know the strict ECHR violations.
And in your particular in this case it will be vital to emphasise that because you have been misinformed by the court regarding any further route of appeal or simply state that the High Court has determined on 6th Sept that you absolutely had no further route of appeal domestically.

Basically ECHR bung 1000s of otherwise worthy applications straight in the bin every year because domestic remedy has not been exhausted, and will do so with yours if you didn't make crystal clear why you didn't go further than the High court.

There's stuff on their site and this page has Basic application info

You may need legal advice, but ECHR routinely accept direct personal applications without any legal representation.

babyhammock Fri 01-Mar-13 14:30:34

Cumfy wow thank you. So I can do that then, take the 6th september appeal court date? It doesn't have to be the date of the original judgement?

I honestly had no idea about the supreme court and my solicitor didn't either hence why I phoned the high court to ask.

In terms of rights that have been contravened, would it be right to fair trial? or would it be one of the others in terms of DS's right to be safe or no punishment without evidence? or possibly a combination?

I think it would it would be correct to state state that the High Court had determined I absolutely had no further route of appeal domestically.

I'll do something tonight when DS goes to bed. I have written tons of of stuff already as well as the stuff I prepared for the court of appeal.

I'll do it! thanks

yellowbrickrd Fri 01-Mar-13 14:38:20

Just wanted to add my support to the others - you have been massively let down by the legal system but you are showing a lot of guts and resolve in the face of it. You are a wonderful example and a great Mum to your ds.

trustissues75 Fri 01-Mar-13 14:48:02

I'm so sorry you've been through this. I just don't undertand where that judge was coming from at all. I don't have any suggestions - at best you had a completely incompetent judge and worst you had a woman-hating makes no sense after the evidence that was given that he would order unsupervised contact.

Darnley Fri 01-Mar-13 15:04:32

Hi. I know you have not had a good experience with cafcass so far, but I think they are the ones who are best placed to help you with this.

I say this as a family court advisor myself. If you can evidence this mans vile behaviour, I would certainly not be recommending unsupervised contact, if at all.

Feel free to pm me if I can help.

God, babyhammock, what a horrific experience you have had. So sorry. And yes, you are showing a hell of a lot of guts and it is obvious that you will go to the ends of the earth to protect you child from this absolute monster.

Just wanted to wish you all the luck in the world and hope you find a good solution. It sounds as though Darnley really might be able to help you. I really hope so.


babyhammock Fri 01-Mar-13 21:15:21

YellowBrick and Scarlet thank you thanks
I have Pm'd Darnely and I've drafted the letter that Cumfy suggested and I'll work on it some more over the weekend and will send it Monday.

Everyone's been so kind

LittleBoSqueak Fri 01-Mar-13 21:35:40

I wish people would realise that this is the reality of the family courts and Cafcass. People mistakenly believe that the courts favour women not men.

The bottom line is that the courts believe that contact of any description is better than none.

I have been treated as utterly worthless in court and it has definately taken its toll on me and affected my relationship with my children.

Cherriesarelovely Fri 01-Mar-13 21:40:56

So happy to see so many brilliantly helpful, knowledgable posters on here tonight babyhammock ! I'm thinking of you and all others coping with this horrendous scenario. xx

Cherriesarelovely Fri 01-Mar-13 21:42:49

Little having read of the experiences of women on mn I can well believe it. I'm sosorry you have had to go through that.

LittleBoSqueak Fri 01-Mar-13 21:59:17

Its funny cherrie because I think the general consensus on mumsnet is that a women can leave a dv situation and explain things/show proof to a family court and cafcass and be confident that she will be treated well!

I had police, camhs, school evidence but none of it was considered. The bottom line is as i said before is any contact is considered better than no contact even though if you can show contact is detrimental to your child it should not go ahead.

I was spoken to with utter contempt and such disrespect.

babyhammock Fri 01-Mar-13 22:03:29

LittleBo I'm so sorry. That's exactly how it is though sad

LittleBoSqueak Fri 01-Mar-13 23:05:07


I wish I had some words to comfort or help you, I really do.

trustissues75 Sat 02-Mar-13 08:53:33

LittleBo - this is what I ear if my Ex ever applies to the British courts - any contact is better than none and my son will disappear to the States never to return.

betterthanever Sat 02-Mar-13 10:02:23

What can we do to change all this? There are lots of us and there must be so many more out there...
Darnley I have only found my cafcass officer helpful, they are the only one I trust (including my own solicitor). But they have to work within the law. I wish I could have an hour of their time away from court to talk things through. They are always so busy in court and up against the hearing times.
babyhammock please let us know how you get on with the European Courts. cumfy your knowledge is really helpful.

FarBetterNow Sat 02-Mar-13 17:52:42

Best wishes to all you brave, brave women.
I have no legal knowledge, so no words of wisdom, but wish you all success in your fights to protect your children.
Love to you all.

babyhammock Sat 02-Mar-13 22:19:45

LittleBo I keep thinking about what you wrote, about how you were spoken to and treated in court and the toll its taken on you and your children sad... Its all just so wrong isn't it, and I feel the same, it totally broke me. All this non responding to the court, as risky as it is, its the first time since I left that I've felt able to breath.

Better if they applied the Sturge and Glaser report like they're supposed to, this wouldn't be happening, but they're not. I've finished my letter and I'll send it to ECHR special delivery monday... you never know hey.

FarBetter and Cherries thank you so much again

LittleBoSqueak Sat 02-Mar-13 22:46:46


I just typed a long reply but I am scared to write more about my experience in case it outs me.

babyhammock Sat 02-Mar-13 22:50:34

Pm me if you like x

seaofyou Sat 02-Mar-13 23:02:23

(((BabyHammock))) sad

god this is worst nightmare living it! i am so so sorry you and ds are going through this.

when is contact to happen next? can you secreatly video ex to catch abuse and contact police with evidence?

please pursue the maintanence...I did this unknownly it was the trigger that caused ex to stop contact with my ds in which he was physically abusing himsad
this may trigger your ex to run too (praying it does).

you can not let this evil pig near your ds and Rowan sadly said something worrying re father given residence as mum refused contact.

Do you know IJ website? if not let me know and I will PM you. desperate measures needed. also the others say move far enough away legally is a good idea too. but i understand the rope around the neck mortgage/job/finanical/family/school ties are also.

you need evidence but for that he has to abuse you againsad get it on camera etc then get police involved surely this then would be evidence to get the courts to change things or if he is banged up no contact then! i understand the pain and frustration of being treated second class by this system too and it is just soul destroying.

i am so glad there are lots of legal support here for you too.
keep strong and safe x

trustissues75 Sun 03-Mar-13 07:41:28

Hi there...been reading more of your's just so unbelievable and makes me quake in my boots for the day my vile ex comes to the UK courts - reading this tells me I won't stand a chance.

I'm surprised your local MP won't give you some sort of help...mine were great, but maybe that was because I was up against what was, in their off the record opinon, a "nasty little American" who needed to be told he couldn't walk all over us.

If you do run and hide do make sure you change your name, I know you can't change DC's, but DC won't be breaking the law if he/she doesn't go on the electoral register, where as you will thus forcing you to go on the register, where you will be easily found by someone with enough drive to find you.

I don't know I this will be any use, but I'm going to pm you with the name of a solicitor in London - she just may have another take on this that could help...worth a try.

trustissues75 Sun 03-Mar-13 07:47:46

I'm sorry, I'm reading your thread in bits and pieces because I have problems remembering things but I just had to comment on this post you made:


"No I haven't had a section 7 report. The whole cafcass thing was awful and I complained as the officer had made so many mistakes. It went to the parliamentary ombudsman and they upheld my complaint in full and cafcass said that the officer in question had to be re-trained in DV. They didn't give me a new officer though and on the day of the hearing the judge said that he was not going to consider the complaint against cafcass at reason.

The cafcass offcer said in court he didn't believe me (he came up with the most stupid reason not to) but if he had he would have recommended no contact.

Judge disregarded that and wrote in his judgement that I had not challenged Cafcass (I had and it had been upheld in full by the PO) and that he was a well respected officer (ignoring that cafcass's own recommendations were that he was re-trained)


My comment is: What the Fuck?! Is this judge and your ex in cahoots together? DO they both happen to be freemasons? Part of some sort of good-old-boys club? My jaw literally dropped when I read this. At the very best this has to be incompetence on the judge's part...but let me guess.There's no recourse because judges are God and must not be challenged. I'm incensed for you, I really am.

trustissues75 Sun 03-Mar-13 07:49:13

He LIED - the judge lied on official court documents...sorry, I just can't believe that, I really can' a rhetorical sense, I completely believe you say that's just almost surreal...

NeedlesCuties Sun 03-Mar-13 08:15:34

I have no advice, OP, but just wanted to say you seem absolutely lovely, a great mum and a brave woman.

babyhammock Sun 03-Mar-13 08:59:12

Trust issues Thank you so much. I think he was lying at worse and 'deliberately' misleading for what ever axe it was he wanted to grind at best. I've written the following as part of my letter to the ECHR:

(((I believe this judge was dangerously biased and I appealed to the High Court of Appeal in London for a re-trial on the following grounds providing a detailed skeleton argument in support of them:

1.The exercise of the judges discretion was vitiated by factual error

2.The judge denied me natural justice by refusing to admit witness evidence

3.The judge acted beyond a reasonable exercise of discretion and failed to provide adequate reasons for the decisions

4.The judge failed to consider relevant facts and considered irrelevant facts

5.The judge erred in the weight applied to evidence

I was invited for an oral hearing at the High Court of Appeal on 6th September 2012.

Permission to appeal was refused and this order was rubber stamped the 18th September 2012. I was told verbally by the High Court that I had absolutely no further route of appeal domestically.

I do not believe that the judge who conducted the fact find was impartial and as such I do not believe I had a fair hearing.)))

As for the electoral role, I'm not on any part of it that can be made public and I've changed my number, car etc. If I do move again I will probably change my name as well.
I really really really hope that your ex just stays away.

Needles thank you.

Seaofyou I do know what you're saying, but so much evidence was already ignored that to put Ds in a situation to try and get more, I just can't do it. What's the IJ website?

BerylStreep Sun 03-Mar-13 10:04:56

I wondered about a masonic connection too.

seaofyou Sun 03-Mar-13 11:29:02

I've PM'd you babyhammock

babyhammock Sun 03-Mar-13 20:44:12

Beryl I'm pretty sure my ex isn't, however he is one of these people who just seems to get away with stuff confused. As for the fact fine judge and the high court judge...who knows? I felt at the time like it was a bit of an old boys network.

Thanks sea

trustissues75 Sun 03-Mar-13 20:45:53

How you doing this evening OP? Glad my info may be some help to you...let me know if you get anything positive from it.

Cherriesarelovely Sun 03-Mar-13 20:53:28

Also wondering how you are doing? Is your letter going off tomorrow? I will have everything crossed for you. It would seem that everyone who reads your thread is as incredulous as we have all been. Thank god for MN and thank god your son has such an intelligent, courageous mother.

That judge, was clearly not doing his job properly. It is so wrong that just because of who is he he has been able to get away with that and you are suffering the consequences.

babyhammock Sun 03-Mar-13 21:15:45

Thanks trust I will.
Ah Cherries letter's finished and I've literally just sealed it in the envelope. I'll send it special delivery tomorrow.

I can't express how much everyone on this thread has helped x

Cherriesarelovely Sun 03-Mar-13 21:44:32

Well done, brilliant job. I am so pleased on your behalf that people are helping you. I know I keep saying it but your situation is truly heartrending and I hope you will continue to come back and lean on MN for support in the coming weeks/months. Hate to think of you coping with this alone. Sorry, if you already said but do you have family close by who can also support you?

babyhammock Sun 03-Mar-13 22:06:00

Cherries I will definitely and I'll let you know what happens.
Thanks again x

Really hope this works, babyhammock. You are being so courageous and determined.

Sending you my very very best wishes xx

yellowbrickrd Mon 04-Mar-13 10:17:23

Just want to add my best wishes to the others babyhammock. By fighting on in this way you are helping a lot of other women out there and I admire your strength so much.

As someone said upthread most people probably have no idea how women are being treated by the courts - at a time when the authorities are all supposed to be working together to put an end to Domestic Violence experiences like your could set the process back years.

Whatever happens I definitely think you should go to the media with this - maybe get together with some of the other posters on here and take it to 'Women's Hour' or 'You and Yours' (R4) and the press. People like your ex and this bastard of a judge can't be allowed to wreak havoc in someone's life and get away with it.

seaofyou Mon 04-Mar-13 10:48:25

Forgot to add to PM good luck with that letter today, you are so brave and I truly hope all these new rules out to protect women in your current situation start doing their job for you and DS.

babyhammock Mon 04-Mar-13 20:14:09

Thanks Scarlet and sea I'll post back what happens with the application.

Yellowbrick there's been so much progress in DV but the courts seem to be stuck in a time warp. I very much felt like the judge could do/say what he wanted and there was nothing I could do. As for the media, it would be so good to do something like that as there must be so many others going through the same

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