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Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: 17

(1000 Posts)
foolonthehill Sun 17-Feb-13 13:51:10

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
a check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
why financial abuse is domestic violenceAre you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans – He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out – You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

what couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
should I stay or should I go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change…please don’t give him the link…print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
bill of rights here is what you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

TheSilveryPussycat Sun 17-Feb-13 13:52:58

As usual, thanks to fool for new thread.

This thread can change your life!

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 14:09:24

Coolio, thanks fool, you are a star. grin

scarred, didn't get a chance to reply to your last post, but wanted to echo the thoughts - v glad you are out of the relationship, if not yet away from him altogether. If you have to be around him for work, is there anything you can do to work on building yourself back up, like counselling?

Thanks fool. Welcome scarred I speak German, although it's been a while...

Noonelistens Sun 17-Feb-13 14:31:30

I'm on board too. Hoping by the end of this new thread that things may be a little different and that I will have actually started to move on grin

arthriticfingers Sun 17-Feb-13 14:35:07

thanks fool smile

Lahti Sun 17-Feb-13 14:38:25

Thanks fool

Just had a discussion with H. He has suggested RELATE again. He says he doesn't mean to be rude and it is because he hates his job that it is silling over into home life. I mentioned the EA and the fact that his friend stayed here overnight without my knowledge, he says that it was because her partner had thrown her out and beaten her up. Now I feel really bad as he was actually going something good although in completely the wrong way. AAARGH. Have got him to agree to leave me in peace re sex though phew. Gotta go he is back.

MrsMorton Sun 17-Feb-13 14:46:17

noone maybe that should be our resolution? It's always good to have an aim? By the time this thread reaches 1000 I will have.....

H still convinced I'm having an affair. I do love him though, why can't I get over that? I hate him when I'm lying awake at night or when he's texting me shit but then I see him, he puts his arms around me and I'm in love again.

FairyFi Sun 17-Feb-13 14:59:19

thanks fool lovely link and new thread smile

very welcome SBC to our new thread - sorry you find yourself in this boat with us, hopefully steering a good course now for the future... especially that you have now found the answer to your confusions and that the convo here has given you much needed clarity for yourself. welcome.

Kissing one side of your face MrsM and slapping the other, huh? mmmm.... tis so hard. Is the kiss worth the slap? It took me a long time to decide not!

glad you at least have peace on the sex front lahti thank goodness for small mercies.

Ta's pony enjoy the sunny park! smile

MrsMorton Sun 17-Feb-13 15:01:56

fairy that's exactly what it is and no, the kiss isn't worth it but it's all so difficult isn't it. The momentum continues to build.

fool thank you for new thread, I'm going to try to keep up with this one but they move so fast and so much time I'm not allowed online!!

scarredbutalive Sun 17-Feb-13 15:05:32

silver, fool, pony : Thank you so much! I´ver never ever posted online and I´m still shaking - the mere sensation!
Well, yes, I am not his GF anymore, I´m damaged goods. But up until last night, I felt I had failed and wasn´t lovable. My mother used to tell me she should have crashed me against the wall as a newborne (they did that to cats in the country, to keep the numbers down) because I was never going to be any good. So when I started hearing similar stuff from Ex- FW, that sounded creepily familiar ... maybe there was something to it.
As far as the job is concerned: yes, I will have to work with him this summer. And I probably never would have left, no matter what. Firstly, yes, it´s far from being easy to find jobs, too many people around thinking:"The Oscar is waiting!" Combine that with my completely devastated sense of self- respect and you can possibly imagine my utter horror to leave. Also: I have spent 18 years of energy, time and deep devotion for that place - him gaining the reputation and the money, me doing all the jobs he didn´t want to do (including casting actors, can you believe it? How stressful!!) I felt I had a moral right to stay.
But during last night I have made my decision. I will tell him: this is my last summer! (He always used to threaten firing me, anyhow) And tomorrow I´m going to call a GP to ask for whatever assisstance. I´m scared to death about the consequences, but reading all your stories made me so sad and so angry. And I thougt: "Jesus, you don´t even have kids with this FW, so get off your arse, finally!" (Btw: after learning from his then Gf she was pregnant, FW got so scared to be confronted with suddenly having responsibilities that he went for sterilisation right away, so that would never happen again!)
One last way regarding children (I won´t go out on a limb and say too much as I have unfortunately no idea): my parents stayed together till the bitter end (=my father dying, mother unhappily still alive). They screwed all of us 3 daughters immensly, and even as children we begged them to split up. I can only assume on what is involved, but I firmly believe if you show your child it´s loved, wanted and safe, a huge chunk of groundwork is laid. And having read all your posts, I can only deeply admire you for the guts and strength and love you all show. Thank you again!

scarredbutalive Sun 17-Feb-13 15:15:34

I´m far too slow: thanks to everyone welcoming me thanks

TieredConfusedMummy Sun 17-Feb-13 15:45:27

Thanks for the new thread fool I'll post later.

FairyFi Sun 17-Feb-13 16:02:18

I wonder scarred whether you might have found this thread yet? (re: the parenting issues - another road leading to understanding and support for me, you might find it makes useful reading for you too).

You are already making good decisions. warm wishes

DoFuckOffDear Sun 17-Feb-13 16:16:17

Reading the links in the op and Fairy's link, I realise I married my mother .

I cut ties with her, I'm sure I can find a way out of this marriage too.

scarredbutalive Sun 17-Feb-13 16:32:08

Thanks fairyfi, for pointing that out to me.
And yes, dfod, sounds familiar. In the very beginning, I would have sworn he was the exact opposite. Now at the end, I´m just amazed how good he is at wearing a very misleading mask.
Having been awake for more than 35 hours now (? hours in the net) I will try to catch some sleep now. Am curious of what I´ll be dreaming smile
Thanks for letting be roam arond here for a while! thanks

foolonthehill Sun 17-Feb-13 16:34:01

Clarity is a valuable thing...use it wisely and don't get sucked back down into the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).

Our situation prior to getting out from our EA relationship reminds me of the recent DR Who episode <sad geek emoticon> where the DR and his companions see the monster (??the silence) then as soon as they stop looking they forget the monster even exists and are just left with a strange sick feeling. When our FWs are nice it's easy to excuse, dismiss and minimise what they do and who they really are.

It may be hard out of an EA relationship but it's nowhere near as hard as losing oneself inside it.

TisILeclerc Sun 17-Feb-13 17:03:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anyone seen the They aren't worth it thread just now in Relationships? I felt compelled to post a reply as it just shows how little people who have never experienced an abusive relationship understand about them.

arthriticfingers Sun 17-Feb-13 20:00:01

All I could think of posting was 'bully for you' - but I did not think that was very helpful, so, reluctantly, I didn't. I can post it here, though grin

I think other people telling me " You shouldn't put up with that!" or " You should do X,Y or Z!" was the hardest thing as it made me feel weak for being unable to.

arthriticfingers Sun 17-Feb-13 20:15:08

Hope it was clear that 'bully for you' was what I wanted to say to the OP on the 'They aren't worth it' thread blush
It really is an example of our worst nightmare - as many are pointing out.

Yeah, don't worry I knew! smile

TisILeclerc Sun 17-Feb-13 20:45:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TisILeclerc Sun 17-Feb-13 20:46:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

arthriticfingers Sun 17-Feb-13 20:57:45

What were your other words! smile
For me, them woz the words I wanted to say!
or, maybe 'whatever'
Or, 'coz we is fick'
None would have been helpful in trying to explain.
Thank goodness for people - like you lot - who are trying.
I am shamed by your valiance.
I don't have the stomach much of the time to explain - it just seems like Sisyphus, or, worse, Prometheus.
Doomed to find ourselves getting nowhere. sad
But it might be just tonight.

Out of interest, how many of you have big age gaps in your relationships? FW is 21 years older than me. He has never dated anyone his age. I think it's because they would have the same amount of life experience as him and would've kicked him into touch quicker than I did, being young and very inexperienced/naive.

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 21:48:48

fool, love the Dr Who connection, and it really makes sense. (Yes, t'was The Silence <shines geek badge proudly>).

Matchsticks - me & FW are the same age, just a couple of months apart. I don't think age differences has anything to do with it.

Didn't mean anything negative pony. I just think I was totally clueless and wondered if it was due to age or inexperience.

NoraLuca Sun 17-Feb-13 22:14:48

Evening all! I've been slightly disconnected from the internet (lost the other thread... hope everyone is OK. Last time I read Maggie was just about leaving, hope she's OK)

Matchsticks H is 7 years older than me. I was 21 when we got together, and I like to think that if I'd been older with more experience I wouldn't have let it get as bad as it did, or dealt with the situation better, but I'm not sure if the age gap per se really affected our relationship.

I have moved into my new house, but keep going back to our old flat because the DDs won't stay over on their own with H. H wants them to stay with him half the time, which I agree with in theory. They are both fine with spending the day with him, but DD2 especially becomes hysterical if I try to leave her for an overnight stay. The thing is, H didn't do very much with DD2 when we lived together - hardly ever sat with her at mealtimes, or helped her with her bath, or helped her get ready for bed, or played with her - so I understand why she is reluctant to stay with him now. I have been leaving them with him on his days, and coming back to the flat just before their bedtime so I can say goodnight to them. Then I stay over too. This probably isn't the best way to be dealing with the situation but I can't bring myself to leave poor crying DD2 with H when I can't be sure he'll comfort her.

TisILeclerc Sun 17-Feb-13 22:17:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 22:19:17

<long ramble warning klaxon!!>

I've been thinking about this over the last couple of days, to do with why I chose to (finally) take my wedding ring off the day after Valentine's, and why I was so able to believe in the relationship for so long, when it was so obvious to everyone outside it that it was a bad 'un.

I think I was half expecting him to send me something for Valentine's. I think I half wanted him to. I think I wanted to believe that he was sorry, that he could be sorry. I was grieving having lost my love for him, and wanted to know that my love hadn't been wasted, that there was a good person in there somewhere.

Part of me is aware that if he had sent something, I would be much more able to forgive him, and perhaps even be less rigid legally with the finances of the divorce etc. Part of me is appalled at how easy it would be for him to manipulate me, if he so chose. Part of me realises that this is how he manipulated me so easily. I read about DV and read about the massive apologies afterwards to reel the partner back in. 'He never does that' I thought. But he did, just in a much more underhand way. Every weekend would be horrible. Then through the week it would gradually get better until, on a Thursday (our 'date' night) he'd make an effort and cook a lovely meal. I've recently realised that this was not because he loved me, it was because he loved cooking. He would regularly cook inflict big elaborate meals on us all at the weekend, that sometimes weren't ready till 8/9pm (not great for my then 5-year-old DS). He'd say that he was determined to cook fresh for his daughters because they ate ready meals and take-aways through the week. But the act of cooking took hours and took him away from spending time with them. As ever, it was never about them, it was about him and what he wanted to do. (And part of it, I think, was about him wanting to be seen to be providing for them, he wanted them to be grateful and me to be impressed.)

Anyway, rambling slightly...

I also didn't think he gaslighted me, but over the weekend I remembered an incident where we'd argued a bit on a Friday morning (before we were married, when we both still lived separately, but I was pregnant). I was stressing about packing for selling my house, we argued, he said for me to just stay at mine on the Friday night and pack instead of going through to his as I had been doing every weekend. I was upset he said that, but a bit relieved (and also genuinely needed to pack, and gawd knows he didn't lift a finger to help me). However, what actually happened (I now think), is that he pretended to his daughters that he didn't know I wasn't coming through, and started texting and phoning me at 6pm to ask where I was. He then phoned much later and verbally abused me enormously while drunk, saying I was upsetting the girls, demanded that I come over there and then (it was 11pm, DS was in bed, I said no, he threatened to end things... I didn't go but went first thing the next morning, I ended up apologising).

My brain can't compute that someone would lie to their own daughters and get them upset just to manipulate and control someone else. I can't process it so I ignore it and focus on the stuff I can process, like a bunch of flowers, him telling me he loved me, the weekly promise of 'come on, let's have a good weekend' etc. It's easier to believe that, and believe that I'm the one at fault than to believe someone could actually be so calculatingly mean as to lie to their daughters and upset them.

So. If he'd sent me some Valentine's flowers, I'd have been able to focus on them and not process the fact that he's demanding so much money off me for the house, despite the abuse. In actual fact, he's probably missed a trick there. Not so bloody clever after all, eh? EH? Ahem.

But he didn't send anything. Thank goodness, in a way, but I think it still makes me sad inside, to realise that this is the kind of person he truly is. It's there, in bold fact, I can't focus on something else instead. I was so blind. I blinded myself and was willingly blinded. So that's probably why the ring came off the next day. I still keep rubbing my finger where it was though. sad I think for my 40th this year, I want to myself get a lovely ring (for another finger) that I can rub at and look at and enjoy. I remember JK Rowling doing that with one of her first big payments, a kind of 'Eff U' ring. I want an 'Eff U' ring!

pony I took my rings off very quickly. Then fw guilted me into putting them back on. Except they wouldn't properly go back, my finger went white and they had to be cut off at the fire station as A&E didn't have the right kit. So that kind of drew a line under it all for me. It did take a while to get used to it.

CharlotteCollinsislost Sun 17-Feb-13 22:31:34

Nora, that's great that you're in your new house. Do you have a fridge?!?

Could you not take dd2 back to your house with you; say you're happy to work towards overnight stays, but she's clearly not ready yet?

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 22:36:57

Matchsticks, no negative taken - I just don't think age gap or inexperience is the whole story. A FW is a FW, whether he's older, younger, or the same age. I was 37 when I met FW, already had a son from a previous long-term relationship. I was a woman of the world, and thought I was pretty independent and strong. But I got suckered in, when I should have been there to protect my DS but I wasn't. In my counselling, I'm going back and looking at why. My boundaries are non-existent. My people-pleasing (and disapproval-avoiding) are off the scale. And there is evidence to suggest that my childhood had a part in it too. I think 'the FW' can detect vulnerability wherever it lies, whether it's in someone younger than them or someone their own age who has been through the mill.

Nora - glad you have moved in, congratulations! Regards your arrangement: if your H didn't do much for the DCs when you were together, there is no need to agree to a 50-50 agreement just because he says it. You can use your very valid arguments about DD2 not settling to suggest a different contact arrangement, eg little and often (several times a week for a couple of hours), or one day at the weekend. You are within your rights to say no to overnights for now. I know it's really hard to assert it. Have you spoken to a lawyer yet? The current situation is obviously not ideal, for anyone.

minkembra Sun 17-Feb-13 22:38:24

Fool. thank you.thanks

Ex 7 years older and already had 2 kids. think that did make a difference to how much he respected me but only accentuated an issue that was already there.

scarred welcome. re ex hopping from one gf to next, i think that is why my ex is so utterly pissed off to have been exed. he says for first time on his life he has no one to love him. well he has been dumped or left before so can only assume this is first time he did not have his next move lined up in advance. feel sorry for next mug gf as he will no doubt be keeping a spare in reserve from now on.

And boo hoo again the boy can cry me a river. at least he can go out whenever he wants. if i find a new partner it is going to have to be based on 3 hours out a fortnight, my pottery class, average age 75 - they are all lovely...but marriedwink...or work.

Even if i did meet someone i'd be smuggling them in and out while the girls were asleep.
That and the fact i have a fair bit in common with Miranda in the romance stakes...awkward clumsy geeky bit blokey...

Nonetheless i have the new haircut going to get the lashes done (hoping not to look like a transvestite (nothing against them just jealous that half the time they look more convincing in a dress than megrin)and then see who i can trap in my wicked web mwahahah.

Dr who connection brilliant.

Fi lonely Saturdays suck. the fact that Saturday with FW can be worse does not make being on your own better. it can be like the choice between having cold sores or conjunctivitis... no one wants either (although i do know some people genuinely like being alone)

Its like what we chose from the menu of life was a warm loving relationship and what you got served was a month old plate of greasy bloaters with a nice dressing (well you cannot serve greasy bloaters without a nice dressing or ahem no one would order them...)...worse a plate of bloaters that cheats on you<see bit like Miranda totally off on a ramble...where was i going with this?!? only logged in to thank fool...too much wine>

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 22:42:06

Matchsticks!!!!! grin Is it wrong to say I laughed at your tale of wedding ring woe? That you had to get them blimmin well cut off (thereby taking away any possibility of being able to wear them). I should have thought of that (I did struggle to get it off on Friday, wondered if I'd be able, finger was turning a funny colour hmm...)

FW actually demanded that I take my ring off and give it back to him at one point, so maybe that's why I kept it on for so long or cos I is a stubborn-ass mule.

No, it was blackly funny! I rang my best friend on the way and she laughed loads. Best bit was, the firemen laid out 3 garden saws and told me to choose my weapon to wind me up. Was an odd, but amusing night in a way.

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 22:45:34

mink grin grin V funny! Am snorting at greasy bloaters... No idea what they are but they sound funny!

TisILeclerc Sun 17-Feb-13 22:46:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CharlotteCollinsislost Sun 17-Feb-13 22:48:54

Have just been at my parents' house for a very relaxing weekend. FW has dd1, dd2 and ds on holiday; I am finding just having dd3 unbelievably relaxing, such a treat!

Am pleased with myself, because I put my headlights on full beam when possible, driving home, whereas last time in November I didn't because FW thinks they're unnecessary ("you can see far enough down the road as it is," he always says as he roars down narrow country lanes far too fast...). FFS, he wasn't in the car either time, so please FW get out of my head, too!!

FW came home for about 24 hours on Valentine's Day: long enough that I feel the need for a self-indulgent rant!

He says that being married to me is the most important thing in the world to him, so he'll do whatever it takes, even if that's a complete personality change. WTF?? Does he even know what he's saying? What does that MEAN?

I told him that his behaviour is damaging me, and he looked mortally wounded and muttered about it being "a bit strong." So I said that I'd told him that before about a month ago and he'd reacted the same way then! He didn't quite know how to reply to that - no recollection whatsoever!

I also used the N-word, you know - narcissism, and explained (v v briefly) that Ns have low self-esteem but come across as arrogant, which he could identify with.

Still, two minutes later, he'd rationalised all our problems into: "I think you've stopped loving me and you need to start loving me again and you don't know if you can be bothered." hmm Great work, FW - don't let logical reasoning get in the way of a good theory, eh?

So, I'm not expecting it to be easy to tell him it's over... I'm half-worried that he'll avoid talking about it till his 40th birthday, then force a confrontation and make me look like a complete cow for ruining his big day. Whatever... It's going to be a bad year for him, however it happens, esp if he loses his job as well, but I can't stay around indefinitely putting him first while he also puts himself first, can I?

thanks fool for new thread and helpful linky in old thread. And hi to SBA and DFOD and friendly waves to everyone else I've not mentioned.

minkembra Sun 17-Feb-13 22:49:42

pony sad for you that he is too big a twat to apologise but glad he did not too. think we want so much not to be right about them.

I came back from my parents to a lovely vase of roses...bought them myself before i left and they still look fab. decided not to wait for someone else to get them. these are my eff u flowersgrin

its not the same pony but thanksthanks

ponygirlcurtis Sun 17-Feb-13 23:01:11

Thanks mink! I actually won a bunch of roses at DS2's toddler group on Thursday, and put them straight on the front windowsill because then FW will see them every day on his way back from work. Naughty!

Charlotte lovely to hear you sounding so positive! grin Hurrah for a relaxing weekend. You are almost certainly right about his intentions to ignore the problems (since that's what he's doing for now anyway). Any opportunity to make it all about him will be an opportunity wasted.

BreatheandFlyAway Sun 17-Feb-13 23:17:23

Mink I have "new life daffodils", I like the FU flowers theory too grin

Charlotte my fw is reading from the same script as yours. My leaving him has been a wake up call, etc etc. I explained that he's left waking up too late by a couple of years. That when I am driven to an extreme act like leaving I do actually mean it.

Thank God he didn't turn up in my bedroom again last night. I was out with friends and came back and got really tensed up, kept waking up, tellingly I woke up at 4.30 am and couldn't get back to sleep, wondering if he would appear at 5am.

I put a stool in front of the door so at least I'd have some warning and I actually put my switched-off laptop (which of course contains the magical strength of this thread!) on the bed between me and the door, along with my teddy from childhood - I mean how silly am I grin - I had had a few glasses whilst out!

Anyway he didn't appear. I had a productive day, went for an hour's walk, did gardening for an hour, ignored the house being messy (which I find quite hard to do) and made stuff.

Thanks for new thread, Fool thanks

BreatheandFlyAway Sun 17-Feb-13 23:18:08

pony glad you had some lovely thanks too!

minkembra Sun 17-Feb-13 23:23:51

Dam. wish i had not looked at that not worth it thread. only meant to read it but got a bit hacked off angry

Nothing like blaming abuse on the abused at all was it? Now what kind of personality would do that i wonder.

BreatheandFlyAway Sun 17-Feb-13 23:25:41

Mink I think I'll be avoiding that thread from what I've heard. We don't need more to fight against, God knows!

FairyFi Sun 17-Feb-13 23:33:43

not sure about following the theory of age gap, experience or set up for it (parents). It keeps reminding me of the idea of short skirts, low tops, flirty behaviour, being a little bit drunk, and over friendly being the 'cause' of rape!

Yeah they are poles apart, umm, well no, maybe not. This was occurring to me as I was reading the thread just before about 'why women do it' (!) why they don't just turn away, etc. etc. blah blah.

Children have vulnerabilities, which abusers take advantage of, good loving kind people don't. 'setting someone up' for abuse, doesn't mean theyll be unlucky enough to find one (although I score a full house on that one!). Girls from lovely homes with kind loving and respectful parents can still fall foul of the 'conman' abuser.

Are all the years and years of successful 'time share' sales, all the fault of the people that invested, or the fault of the misleading sales tactics.

I know I am very wary because it'll mean I brought it on myself, if I align myself to that theory, but I honestly don't think it mattered, they were abusive end of. We don't know whether 'that' poster is in an abusive relationship and just doesn't even realise that right now.

There are cultures that are more maybe, whats the word, appeasing? People pleasing, for sure GB where our history and our current policies set us far back from the likes of scandanavia. The women of aus have been found to be (thro psych testing) to be less swayed by others opinions and pressures.

No definitives but lots of influences and possibilities, just don't want to say we brought it on ourselves!

Noonelistens Sun 17-Feb-13 23:38:24

matchsticks - H is 11 years older than me. And I was young when we got together. I think this has played a huge part. He'd already got a house so he knew about mortgages so I went along with what he said. He'd already learned to decorate so I let him do it because it made no sense for me to take twice as long (and get it wrong) when he could do it. He already had a load of pictures/furniture etc and even now I feel like I'm sitting on his sofa.

Nora great to hear you are in your own house. Could the DDs not just spend the daytime at their Dads? I too would hate to leave my DD with H overnight as I know he wouldn't get up to her to comfort her in the night if she awoke.

pony you definitely should get an eff u ring. Maybe we all need an eff u ring!!

I have had a weird development this evening. I think H is having an affair. He's been a bit more welded to his phone than usual but thought it was down to having a shiny new iPhone. Anyway he went to the loo and I noticed his phone had fallen out of his pocket and onto the sofa. So I know it's wrong but I couldn't resist looking. There are loads of messages to and from a lady that I know he is friends with from his last job. I mean daily messages. Lots of night night messages. A red love heart from her on 15th Feb. A message from her stating 'just having a bath but something's missing....' I only had a few minutes to read - didn't get as far forwards as valentines day or before. She's not local but that bath comment cannot be innocent can it?

But the strange this is, I know I should be feeling devastated but I don't. If anything I feel lighter. I think this may be my way out. I know if I confront him about the EA he will make light of it and possibly talk his way out of it. An affair he can't can he? And am I right in thinking that infidelity would mean that he couldn't fight a divorce?

So I need evidence. I need to get the phone and photograph some of the messages - and read back a lot further because they clearly converse a lot. Just not sure how I can get the phone because like I say he has been possessive of it (and now I know why). He sleeps in the spare room and is a really light sleeper - but perhaps it would be worth risking sneaking in whilst he's asleep?

Sorry bit of a long post - really needed to share.

FairyFi Sun 17-Feb-13 23:43:36

and Mink that was hilarious, thanks for the laugh! thanks

ooo lots of flowers going around at the mo!

minkembra Mon 18-Feb-13 00:10:35

The age thing- don't think that made me more likely to think he was right but i do think it contributed to his belief that he was superior. It is that whole trying to hide insecurity by making yourself out to be superior or putting others down.

That was my stated reason for leaving- he does not think i am the equal of him because i am younger and female. (Incidentally both him and his dad used to refer to women as 'some female'. As in i went to the council offices and had to speak to 'some female' -used to hack me off).

Plus he used different generation thing as an excuse for his 'old fashioned' ideas.

minkembra Mon 18-Feb-13 00:12:11

noone definitely sounds fishy.

BreatheandFlyAway Mon 18-Feb-13 00:25:04

noone so glad you're not feeling too devastated by this revelation. It could work very much in your favour, as you say. Is it time to consult a lawyer secretly and explain your H is having an affair, there is proof on his phone, he is staying at home while you go out to work and what can you do to reverse the situation and divorce?

Horrible though it is that an affair is a positive thing... I did think while reading your post that in a few years it could well be her seeking escape while you are away and happy smile Something missing in the bath eh - a rubber duck-wit maybe?

minkembra Mon 18-Feb-13 00:53:45

breath rubber duck-wit. grin

scarredbutalive Mon 18-Feb-13 04:50:59

Good morning all!

About the age-thing: I think it´s a number of reasons why women end up with FWs:
- genes
- the role you have to adopt inside your family
- how you grow up
- the things you see, you learn, you experience
- pure chance
- also how your partner may develop because of his experiences

That´s why it´s outright stupid to ask: "Why do women put up with guys like these, use logic!" (as was said in the other thread)
I was at a party once where a woman I barely knew said straigt to my face: "You´re doing it all wrong with x! You have to mould him!" ...
Well, I personally don´t want to mould my partner. I want to respect him as he is, I want to form a team of equal human beings.

And that´s exactly the point: women in abusive relationships are not stupid or illogical, in the contrary: these women (may I say us) are in fact highly intelligent, I think. They have to be emotionally intelligent to be able to spot all those mood swings, to handle them, to organize life around them. And they have to be rationally intelligent to try to bring reason to completely surreal behaviour, to fights out of the blue, to absurd insults. Forgive me to brag, but when I went to school I wasn´t just the best student in class, for many years I was the best student of my whole school. Everyone thought I´d become a professor. I just used all these abilities and talents in a completely wrong way, I concentrated on others, not on myself. That´s why it all went downhill. To realize where your life wrong and to be able to say: "well, I´m partially to blame" takes a lot of strenghth and insightfulness. Not a lot of people are able to muster that strength. And yet, when I look back upon my life: I had a reason for every decision I made, I was thinking all along. My thinking was just compromised - by (see above)

Lahti Mon 18-Feb-13 08:00:02

Morning all and hello to scarred
Well an awful night here. After my talk yesterday with H re his behaviour and how it is damaging to me and DD I now feel like I have been torturing a kitten.
1. I brought up that he would never speak to anyone at work the way he speaks to me.
2. I said there was nothing wrong with my sex drive it is his behaviour towards me that is the issue.
3. I brought up his reaction to when I have had hospital visits for possible cancer investigations and an accident that our daughter had.
Various other stuff as well.
He asked where I wanted to be in 6 months, I said I don't know? But I don't want to be here if you can't be nice to me.
He said he doesn't know if he can do what I want as he doesn't realise when he is rude or mean it.
A big thing is my spending, I wanted to spend £180 as a one off but be really doesnt want me to (he spends whatever he likes). So last night he said spend whatever you want but just remember that we only have a certain amount if money coming in.
He then said I may as well spend it now as as I wont be able to afford to if we split up. When he left for work this morning he asked if I would be here when he got back, (I am always here) so I said yes of course where else would I be? He said well I just don't know what is happening.
We spoke about his emotional affair, all he says is that he can't change what happened, he won't even admit that the girl should never have stayed at our house without my knowledge.
Hate this.

MrsMorton Mon 18-Feb-13 08:01:03

H is 17 years older than me.

Noonelistens Mon 18-Feb-13 08:18:54

breathe .. rubber duck-wit has made my day. I think if he has a go tonight I'm just going to see a great big rubber duck. ha ha grin . I can't bring myself to call him FW yet (though am getting close) but duckwit - yep that just about fits. Seriously though - it did cross my mind that in a few years she may be posting here and I'll hopefully be free free and away.

lahti you are not torturing a kitten. It is how he wants you to feel so that you come crawling back to him. Stay strong. In a normal relationship if you explained to someone how theire behaviour is damaging you and their child then they would be shocked and devastated and desperate to change. Of course he doesn't 'realise' when he's being rude. Why would he want to do that? This way he can say whatever he feels like and then backtrack on the few times you challenge him and say that he didn't mean it to sound like that.

scarred The more I think about it, the more I think that the biggest reason is a) lack of experience from my part, but more importantly b) pure chance that we met and c) how my H just is and how life experiences have shaped him. ie it is far more his fault then mine.

I live in fear of it happening again if/when I get out. But this time I have more than enough experience so just need to work on self esteem and not being desperate for approval.

I hope I haven't given the impression to anyone that I think it's our fault after posting the age thing. I most certainly do not think that. More that I was more vulnerable because of his greater experience and ability to turn things around so he didn't seem so unreasonable.

scarredbutalive Mon 18-Feb-13 09:04:26

noone I agree with you, it´s far more their fault. I just think some women have a higher level of tolerance than others, even if it´s bad for them. They try and try and try, they are fighting for solutions. Per se, that´s actually a good thing and might - in other areas - lead to phenomenal results.

And I do fully understand your fear of it happening again. In fact, I feel so much like damaged goods that I´m afraid I won´t ever meet any man again I can love and who loves me back. But then I think of what I have achieved in horrible circumstances. And I hope, just hope that if I change circumstances for the better ... well ... I might also achieve better things.

All you women show deep love and commitment, that must account for something. I know lots of bossy or even bullying women. Don´t like them, don´t want to (&can´t) be like them.

Lahti Mon 18-Feb-13 09:05:29

We have 3 year age gap. I think that it is my family role that has got me in this situation. My mum was very keen to get me and my sisters married off quickly lol.
I was never the most confident person but I would not have put up with this amount if crap 12 years ago.

scarredbutalive Mon 18-Feb-13 09:13:12

matchsticks Maybe age plays a certain role. My exFW is 7years older. I have always liked to be around older man. I wanted someone I could respect, someone who has experiences I probably haven´t had. Well, my guy was kind of like this Benjamin Button- movie: redevelopping into a selfish brat.

scarredbutalive Mon 18-Feb-13 09:21:53

and lahti Well, a number of resons, also individually different. But it´s not the abused beeing too sensitiv, it´s the abuser just behaving waaayyy over the line. I have heard all that crap too: I have no sense of humor, I take everything too seriously, right up to: I´m mental and should be institutionalyzed. Won´t take it any more. Then let´s see whom he´s using as his verbal & psychological trashcan.

Lahti Mon 18-Feb-13 09:42:18

H has just called to say that he thinks I should spend today thinking of goals (related to my hobby) I would like to achieve this year. Erm thanks for telling me what YOU think I should do today. It is like he will let me do one thing that I like to do and that it will make up for his other behaviour ie

'look, I let you do what you wanted so why are you still not happy? I can't win'

^^ this is what he thinks. Not what I think. So confusing but I guess that is the point.

FairyFi Mon 18-Feb-13 10:07:02

Hey Match my post further back about age [and other factors] feeling uncomfortably like a sense of responsibility for the abuse, was in no way to say this was what you were trying to say.

The arrogant attitude of the superior logical all seeing person who finds her answer in the only person that slightly agrees with her in the forum, and has the hide of a rhino when it comes to hearing anyone else truths, kept reminding me of this comparison, which I think age might vaguely fall into. So sick of her 'women' responsible tack in it all, with ignorance and yet adopting the side of everything being about the womens 'part' of EA. Very insulting, but I guess she would be too logical to see that! (and too direct to apologise, despite being told again and again thats what we do here! - us Brits!).

Having said that, I think all of us are influenced, and age can be a huge influencer, endowing the older male as having the greater experience, life knowledge, fatherly attributes, etc.

BTW nice one Leclerc and all the ladies who swore. Just wanted to say no need for explanations atall, for my part, Match x

Phew! Thank god I haven't offended.

FairyFi Mon 18-Feb-13 10:50:04

oh no! no no. I think I might be now tho

soz hun... wish I hadn't used age in the example, wouldn't want to cause any upsets here... xx

Have had to steer clear of that thread after my first few posts.

FairyFi Mon 18-Feb-13 11:09:28

think I'm all done now! grin grin <comes running back in to take cover>

ponygirlcurtis Mon 18-Feb-13 11:41:16

listens - it does sound fishy about your H. Def def def get solicitor advice. But also remember - it doesn't matter if he fights divorce. You are entitled to get divorced for absolutely no reason at all. You could just be completely miserable (which you are, because of his EA). He could divorce you if he wants to leave to go off with his duck-buddy. What's important is that you are unhappy and want out. What I mean it - you don't need to validate your reasons, you don't need him to agree they are suitable reasons.

Lahti - this is all part of his strategy to turn it back onto you. You are being unreasonable by asking him to not be rude and mean, I mean, how can he stop doing what he doesn't know he's doing? And confusing you with things like 'will you still be here' - I used to get that, of course the answer is 'Yes I will', but he's confusing your brain, because now you've promised to stay (in a way, even if just for today). Where is anything about you in everything he says, or about DD? Has he expressed sorrow that you have been upset by what he's done? (I mean, rather than 'I'm sorry you feel like that'.) This is all part of the script.

Lahti Mon 18-Feb-13 14:03:40

Thanks pony you always make so much sense. It is such a spaghetti head moment though and I can now see how I ended up taking him back 5 years ago. I am speaking to a counsellor again on Thursday. I don't want to ring today as it will be someone different and I will have to go back over it all so they understand what it is like. Dreading him coming home tonight as he will just keep grinding me down about letting me go to do my hobby etc etc. he has even texted me the number of the counselling service (he doesn't know I have already spoken to them). I'm not really sure what to make of that though, I guess it is him showing an effort.

ponygirlcurtis Mon 18-Feb-13 14:37:57

Lahti, I am laughing hysterically (and somewhat manically) at the thought of me making sense!!!! grin Haha!!!

But I think it is so much easier to see clearly for someone else's situation than it is for your own. I struggle to have any clarity in my own life.

Good that you are going to speak to a counsellor this week. Am very hmm and a bit angry that he's pushing the idea of you going to a counsellor though - why is he focusing on that instead of getting a counsellor for himself? I'd suggest it's not because he's making an effort (although he's happy for you to read it as such) - no, it's because he's setting this up to be your fault again. In other words, once you sort your head out, then things will go back to normal. But you know that wont happen now.

minkembra Mon 18-Feb-13 16:01:36

lahti I too wouldn't read too much into his motives. in his head it may play as making an effort but really I think Pony may be right and he is in hoovering mode.

I have been going by the should I stay or go now^^ could not imagine my ex unconditionally accepting the things in the bonus material so I gave up. any attempts at reconciliation always involved bargaining and basically me being 'nicer'. [hmn}
(obviously I could be nicer, who couldn't, but he didn't actually mean nicer he meant why can't you be a more contented door mat?).

ponygirlcurtis Mon 18-Feb-13 20:21:54

Oooooh, my house is officially up for sale!!!! Not sure how I feel - pretty detached from it all, if I'm honest. It's on t'internet and everything. It's, like official. anyone wanna see?

Absolutely, mink. Me trying harder meant not being so argumentative, which really meant not arguing against anything he said (unless tea-towel related, I was allowed opinions on them).

arthriticfingers Mon 18-Feb-13 20:30:55

Pony grin

betterthanever Mon 18-Feb-13 20:49:49

Hi everyone - I am also liking the idea of having a goal by the end of thread... think mine will be to stop letting FW make me ill. Not been able to shake off lurgy for over a week sad
Fairy I rang WA and spoke to a local branch. They didn't to know anything about facing but they were willing to get victim support to ring me and come to court with me but I will have my sol and friends there and thought they would be better using the resources for someone who didn't have people to take. That said they are ringing me later this week to see how it has gone - thanks for the idea.

Lahti Mon 18-Feb-13 21:30:59

Hi guys, well H is home and being all 'nice' so the opposite to what I expected. He asked whether I had called the counselling number and I said no. He then asked if I really needed to? As it was his attitude to me that was the problem and it was down to him to address it. I asked if he was going to go to counselling instead but he said no.
He has also said that I need to start doing things that I want to do and to think of places that I want to go to for holidays.
I realise this is how the cycle works but it is so believable and no wonder I have put up with it for so long. Really hope the counsellor understands.

betterthanever Mon 18-Feb-13 21:45:56

That is hard lahti maybe get a note book and start from now when it starts again and address it straight away? You probably have done all that. At least you may be able to relax a little tonight.

minkembra Mon 18-Feb-13 22:04:51

lahti any point getting him to try to bonus materials from should i stay or should i go?

Did he give a reason why he wasn't going for counselling?

Lahti Mon 18-Feb-13 22:10:22

mink and better I don't actually believe he will keep this up for long. I will continue with my diary. He didn't give a reason for not going to counselling... I had to drag him there last time. Also going to counselling would mean he has to admit his faults.

KateDillington Mon 18-Feb-13 22:13:26

Hello... I posted about a year ago under a different name. Got lots of good advice from LemonDrizzled... is she still around?

Feel like the divorce is NEVER going to happen. He won't do a full disclosure. Thinks I've got no right to know 'his' income or 'his' savings. Has offered me 30% of 'his' pension. My solicitor has gone AWOL.

He was 11 years older. Makes you wonder...

Is LemonDrizzled still around? How's things with you? x

TisILeclerc Mon 18-Feb-13 22:57:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CharlotteCollinsislost Mon 18-Feb-13 23:03:55

Gah, Lahti, he sounds scarily like my FW - soooo reasonable and sounds like he's saying just what you'd want him to, like "it's his attitude that's the problem and down to him to address it" (gotta admit it, he's GOOOOOD at this!). Do you notice, though, how he then says (1) he ain't gonna change (no to counselling) and (2) these are ways you should change which will help. Both of which COMPLETELY nullify the previous admission.

He's still confident in his belief that he should be in control, isn't he? Telling you to make targets for your hobby, to arrange counselling, not to bother arranging counselling as it won't help, and so on. He sounds all nice, but the FWery is still there, all right. Log it!

CharlotteCollinsislost Mon 18-Feb-13 23:13:19

Another thing FW said in his 24 hours here last week: he mentioned to a friend that I thought he was constantly critical and friend said, "Well, I can see why she'd say that, you are, really." This was a revelation to him, and he described it to me as such, as though I'd be delighted to have the back-up of someone whose opinion actually matters else.

So, essentially (yes, I know I've already made my point, but I'm going to make it again so I can be more sarcastic about it and get in touch with my angry side grin ), I say something, and he discounts it. A friend says the same thing, and he takes it seriously. The fact that it is the same observation is irrelevant to him, so it can't be the observation that's important to him, but the observer. What matters is whether his reputation is damaged in the eyes of somebody who counts.

And to think that for a moment there, I felt this was a sign of some progress being made!!

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 00:12:25

I havent read all the posts yet, I am a newbie on this thread now. I joined the latter part of the last thread.

Anyway, I was just wondering if any of you in the past or currently get into a hysterical screaming mess with your FW.

This is how I operate these days and it has got progressively worse. Is this a symptom of EA?


FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 00:26:25

hey better well done for making the call... I am trying to recall our convo, and I think I recall us talking about 'facing the fear' and that WA helped me to overcome. and I wished you good luck with 'the facing' [of the fear]...

They were very good with telling me not to go into situations I couldn't cope with facing him direct until I felt ready.

I have 3 teens up here having a half-term midnight feast, probably keeping the neighbours up too! Actually they're really very funny, having some chuckles to myself. They're in darkness and in a triple bed, camping out on the lounge floor pretending to be asleep very badly

sorry, not had chance to catch up, did notice house officially up for sale Pony wwwooo!

FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 00:38:27

oh dear Eternal... welcome here. I was always too scared to respond, but I can see how that could be a very valid reaction in the face of intense FWittery. Is it extreme frustration? or is it reaction to his rage? x

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 00:58:53

Hi Fairy, thank you for replying.

He doesn't show 'rage' really. He talks really calmly, and even looks really relaxed yet I get so upset out of frustration. My neighbours have even heard it, and they said they can hear the frustraton in my voice.

I am now starting to see how he 'saves' me after these episodes. He will get me a cup of tea, and literally tuck me up in bed afterwards.


FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 01:06:15

aha!.. there we are... once I cracked (after falling to bits in the face of the rages) I would be a gibbering wreck, which is apparently a lovely romantic time to get horny!?!? hmm

I know of others who will be literally beaten and left, only to come back the next day and nursemaid their poor battered lady back to health, yeah, tea and bed.

just awful sad He has control of you when he talks this way. Try a different tack, maybe just walk off? Would he be violent if you did this?

You don't have to stay to listen to this rubbish that leaves you so frustrated. xx

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 01:13:50

I made a promise to myself that I will no longer allow myself to get that way because my daughter sees it, I am ashamed to say. :-( Lately I have felt so close to admitting myself to a psych ward. Whilst I am a gibbering wreck on the floor, he will then become the most nicest, attentive, loving person ever and I find myself wondering why or what I was even getting upset about in the first place?! I am just looking at the link on the first page with the voice recording of abuse, it's such an eye opener, starting to feel like I am getting a little stronger and that maybe I really could be a single mum and leave him.

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 01:16:38

FairyFi, I can't believe your FW thinks that is the time for 'fun'. I don't have sex with my FW ( twice in the last year, twice the year before that). I have never been able to figure out why I just don't want to do it with him....and now I am starting to see why. Strangely, he doesn't seem all to bothered about it.

TheSilveryPussycat Tue 19-Feb-13 01:21:14

I was that raging gibbering woman in the face of calmness. I figured out that drinking wine tended to bring on that state, as my resentment would spill out and we would have a mutual blame-fest which followed almost the same script each time.

Reinforcing the idea that I was a mentally fragile woman and he was the calm one who earned nothing and did nothing but was entitled to live off me

FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 01:37:12

Oh Eternal sad Just know that you will not be that screaming jibbering wreck when you have left him, you will have calm and have some space to start to think.

I can hear that he uses a calm approach, mine didn't, but the result was the same. When I think back it did use to be the calm approach continually having an intellectual snobbbery about it, knowing better and undermining me, until I would be in tears and sobbing, I would argue back and rationalise but ended up in confusion. I would try to stick the original point made, I would drive myself in circles trying to make some sense of the craziness whilst he loooked all superior and in control. I stopped playing that game but then it turned to rage in my face pressed against the wall, and so on. but still, he would then cuddle once I was a mess and push his 'excitement' against me - WTF! <boak>

Its so good thatyou are feeling stronger and starting to see the glimpses of light being shed on the reality of your situation. very glad for that xx

MrsMorton Tue 19-Feb-13 07:14:56

Oh my yy to the "nurse maid" H was vile to me on Saturday night, accusing me of all sorts and on Sunday he was lovely. FFS. It was back to like it was before the ea even started and that's the glimmer of hope that keeps me in his orbit and it drives me mad.

The momentum continues to build.

minkembra Tue 19-Feb-13 08:30:02

Quick post eternal yup i used to get well worked up didn't know what else to do. he'd start a fight. say his bit and then say conversation over.

Don't think it is the best resonse looking back but it happened.

lahti glad you see through him. didn't want to say ltb straight out as you know him better then me. know what you mean abouthiw some people matter more. in our relationship it was some work that mattered more- his

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 10:35:33

wow, so it seems to be quite common then? Thank you so much for the support with this, I really appreciate it. I find it interesting because my partner paints me as being a very abusive, aggressive person. Yet when people meet me they say I have a warm, kind manner. confused I mean, dont get me wrong I have literally called him anything and everything during these 'discussions' but the man seems incapable of seeing how he can wind me up so much. Like someone mentioned above, he talks with this intellectual authority (now I know why I call him Professor) and comes across in control, and all laidback.

This morning he is a pillar of negativity. He has an interview. I said, you need to be positive. He repiled, " Why? It's just a shit job in a shit area". He didn't even really prepare for his interview, I'll be interested to see if he gets the job.

Last night I made a mental note to NOT go to him for bedtime cuddles, I feel that I need to start the detachment process. Already I can see that he knows something is up. I realise that when he approaches me for a kiss, I almost seize up, it's quite sad really. I really dont want to have sex with this man.

I am really starting to wonder whether he really is a major contributing factor to my severe depression and anxiety and my inability to feel like I cant do anything without his prescence?!

The neighbours in my flat yesterday said to me "EternalRose, you have such a beautiful voice when you sing you sound like an opera singer, but why do you wait until he leaves the house before you sing?" That comment really brought things home to me.

So today is a strong day, but I am really considering leaving him for definite. He will probably have to stay with me for the next 6 months anyway but after that I will relocate for University.

It's amazing the perspective you can gain on someone, when you mentally take a step back for a second.

How is everyone else today? What are you all up to today? I really do hope you are all having a good, strong day. x

ponygirlcurtis Tue 19-Feb-13 10:46:15

Rose, I used to be a gibbering mess. I've never been much of a crier, but the sheer upset and frustration of the arguments and situations have had me sobbing and gasping for air many times. (He once threatened to call an ambulance because I was crying so hard... hmm, and threatened to section me more than once.) And he would be calm and collected, telling me I had to stop this nonsense because I was upsetting DS, or the kids could hear, or whatever. I would walk away sometimes and take myself off to another room, but he would follow me and come in and out of the room either making me cry more because he was still being horrible, or cry more because he was being nice! Then eventually, Like Fi says, it would be cuddles and tea and looking after me. sad And I would feel awful for having been in such a state and losing control in front of the kids. sadsad

I haven't cried hysterically once since I fully ended things. It's only when with him that I get into that state.

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 10:59:09

Gosh ponygirlcurtis, they really are all the same arent they?

My ex FW (the man I was with previous to this relationship), not this FW, also used to talk about getting me sectioned and would always threaten to call the ambulance or my mum.

My current FW also tells me to calm myself down as I am upsetting DD and like you felt so ashamed the next day for losing control.

I really do pick them don't I, but then my mother was also very abusive so it seems to be all I know.

I am so glad you have ended things ponygirl, how do you feel from day to day?


minkembra Tue 19-Feb-13 11:04:25

fairy eternal re. trying to stick to the original point. Fw bingo! That used to drive me mental. would start out as what i thought was quite a reasonable point and then degenerate into some kind of farce. i used to get so frustrated. he would shout me down, repeat the same question over and over again constantly usually a question with no right answer.

Once i remember him shouting about 30 times ARE YOU GOING TO TEACH OUR KIDS TO SELF HARM? i mean wtf? Obviously no. but if i said no he would be all, see I'm right and vindicated. if i said nothing that was taken as a yes. If i trid reasoning he would just keep repeating. the conversation had been about something completely different to start with.

So faced with that kind of sh*t i did sometimes try the same thing of asking the same question over and over again to him (usually something a bit more relevant though) and ended up making myself look like a twat

got to unlearn lots of fucked up habits now.

But short answer yes he used to boil my piss!! And sometimes i lost it blush

arthriticfingers Tue 19-Feb-13 11:24:13

There are often two tactics at play.
One is classic deflection make the argument about something else - the more inane the better.
The other is this from psychological game theory:
CORNER - The corner game is one in which the manipulator places the other person in a situation where anything he or she does is wrong - they are backed into a corner and are "damned if you do and damned if you don't." It is extremely frustrating to the person who is cornered, and may be the cause of many serious emotional disturbance if a person was continually cornered by a spouse or by parents.

FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 12:12:04

I also think, there is no blood coming out of that stone. Its a brick wall, no giving, only denial and own manipulative ends. I also mistook sex for giving, ding dong.

TheSilveryPussycat Tue 19-Feb-13 12:18:20

And mine never started a conversation - I was always the one who raised my issues when I felt desperate/brave enough about him. He would immediately riposte with blaming me for doing something similar and so it would go on.

I have a suspicion that I sometimes raised an issue, even knowing how it would go, just to have any sort of conversation with him.

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 12:18:52

Today it feels like I am having constant flashbacks to events in my past where I was utterly at my wits end with this man.

I went to IBIZA in my late teens, loved the atmosphere and spirit there and most people who have been will know that it is house music central.

Well my partner has been in the music industry before, and of course he knows all there is to know about the type of music they play in IBIZA even though he has never been there.

Once I was listening to the Ministry of Sound album and I said " Oh this reminds me of my holiday in IBIZA" to which he replied "they dont play this sort of music over there" I said, " yes they do, I have been there and this is what I heard over there" I was then met with silence. I mean, I used to find myself questioning whether I actually did hear that type of music there or whether it really was me imagining things.

How barmy confused

TheSilveryPussycat Tue 19-Feb-13 12:22:38

Towards the end, whatever I said, a comment about a TV programme or an item of news, he would immediately say something contradictory. And if I was at all persuaded of his argument, he would still find a way to disagree!

I got so I could spot those quite easily, twas a sort of specialist FW bingo grin

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 12:23:05

Oh blimey SilveryCat, my FW does the same! Whenever I do get the strength to bring something up, he will always find something where I have done the same and we go round and round and it becomes tit for tat tit for tat.

I would always come away from these discussions feeling like nothing was resolved.

Oh, and would any of you consider this to be abusive? The other day he said to me, " ER, you have been through some really bad times in your life, I think it is terrible that people have done this to you " but then later on in the day he said " you like to play the victim, it's always about how you feel " So I replied " But earlier on today, you said you thought it was bad that people have treated me poorly in the past, He replied, " yes that's right, but you do like to play the victim "

Someone please explain what he meant, because I am confused confused

TheSilveryPussycat Tue 19-Feb-13 12:24:05

Meant to say, I take his reasoning to be 'Silver has said it, therefore it must be wrong!'

FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 12:34:12

he's completely entitled to contradict himself and still be right, see? hmm

yy, darned confusing and infuriating, more slippery than an eel

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 12:36:23

Silivery It's astounding the similarities between our FW, really it is. My partner is always quick to tell me that something is wrong.

I really, really, cant talk about normal affairs with my partner without him going off into some conspiracy theory. He is 'anti-establishment'. There is a conspiracy for everything. Conversations can become very interesting. When I was 21, his alternative attitude to life endeared me to him but now at the grand old age of 26, I am tired. And this man would rather talk about the Queen being a reptile as opposed to finding ways he can support the family financially.

FW's favourite conversations.

Princess Diana's death was a murder. HSBC bank is part of a drug ring, Beyonce is part of the illumnati as well as Jay-Z, Britney spears is a victim of mind control 'how apt', he also believes in Eugenics, he thinks there will be a New World Order, he also thinks that 911 was a set up by the US government, Maddie was killed by her parents, Ian Huntley didn't kill those girls, no one needs to pay TV license and on and on it goes...

According to him, he is a realist but if I challenge him on these beliefs I get 'That's not the way it is' But I will reply with 'But you don't know any of these things for sure, you just read it on a website?'

No wonder, I spend my life in a continual state of exhaustion and I have no idea what my reality is anymore.

minkembra Tue 19-Feb-13 12:49:33

My ex was not of the calm variety. far far from it. he would go from silent to screaming in seconds. the neighbours must be so relieved now he isn't about. I used to shout back but latterly had stuck to being the calm one. made no difference to him but it was better for me.

he also liked to accuse me of feeling sorry for myself even though he was the world champion at oh poor me. I am now tough as nails in most situations where I might be tempted to wallow and just get up and get on with it (have actually been told in counselling that this is not necessarily the best approach) but I still say glass half full and you gotta laugh dint ya (sometimes i like to evoke my inner pluckey cockney grin)

he also said recently about one his friends whose wife binned him off (with good grounds I might add) 'oh he used to speak to her in a way that was just shocking' and I thought really!? [hmn] must have been bad if it made your misogyny radar ping.

minkembra Tue 19-Feb-13 12:50:07

did I say [hmn] I meant hmm

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 13:03:13

minkembra they always seem to have an opinion on someone else's relationship dont they? I am starting to realise that my partner hardly says anything good about women..

How do you feel now that he is not around, are you feeling a lot better?

TheSilveryPussycat Tue 19-Feb-13 13:05:54

At least my FW wasn't a conspiracy theorist - funnily enough that would have been a deal-breaker very early on confused

ponygirlcurtis Tue 19-Feb-13 13:09:32

Rose, mine would accuse me of being a victim and enjoying putting myself in a victim role too. I think it just means that they will say whatever they want, usually whatever will get them what it is they want at that time (to be nice to you or to put you down). That is how they get away with being entirely contradictory!

Mine also had fairly strongly held views that no-one else (ie me) was allowed to disagree with. In fact, if I disagreed, I was often 'siding' against him deliberately.

mink - my FW was also v v shouty, but could put on the calm exterior for effect when it was me losing it. That's the thing - they can turn it on and off as it suits (that's why it's bollocks if they say they can't control themselves - the very essence of it is that they do control it, and use for their own benefit). I have read about the police being called to a DV incident and the man being very calm and saying she's completely mad, and there is the woman shaking and incoherent after being abused, so it's the calm, sane-seeming man that the police believe. sad

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 13:21:01

My partner loves to call the police out on me :-( He has done it twice, the last time 7 police officers turned up. 5 waited in the car outside and 2 came upstairs (I live in a flat). I am 5 foot 3, hardly a brick sh*thouse. Only god knows what he must have told them for 7 police officers to turn up, I was terrified that this would be a kiss goodbye to my career.

I was upset and hysterical and may have chucked a few books around the room in frustration but apparently he was scared for his life.

Also, according to him, the police had asked him if 'he wanted to press charges' but he politely declined. Funny how 2 years ago he was arrested for punching me in the head, breaking his hand as a result. He had called himself an ambulance but when the ambulance found out the cause of the injuries they called the police on my behalf. The police arrested him, he spent the night in a cell and was cautioned. But, even now he blames me for this incident and said I hit him first, talk about rewriting the script I have an entirely different perception of that day. Although he does claim to be sorry.

Why does all this stuff just keep coming and coming :-( Sorry to keep going on everyone, just feels better to get it out.


minkembra Tue 19-Feb-13 14:55:13

ER do let it out. this is the place for it because no one here is going to doubt what you say or try to encourage you to just put up with it and that is what makes it such a relief. just to be listened to and actually heard.

and yes I do feel better now that he is not around. there is a lot of adjusting to do and I still see him when he comes to see the kids (which is ok). But life is generally much less frustrating.

that was the main thing- life with him was just frustrating and disappointing and emotionally wearing. He was exasperating. I wasn't scared and I had my independence (other than finding childcare) but I just never knew where I stood. It is tough having to do everything single handed but it was tougher doing everything single handed whilst he sat on his bum or nagging him to help out or being made to feel like I owed him because he had done my the massive favour of actually looking after his own kids. I was just sick of being sworn at.

Basically (the odd rant aside), I am gradually shedding all the resentment and unease that were the defining features of my life before.

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 15:23:28

minkembra, thank you for replying.

I am glad you are feeling better without him. From what you have written, it seems like you feel free, free from all of the frustration..? I think for me that's what I look forward too, just not feeling exasperated and a crying, screaming, mess on the floor.

My FW on the other hand, would be quite happy to cook, clean, wash, iron and for a long time I have felt like I should be grateful but my FW does not support me financially, never has and dare I say it will be surprised if he supports me financially if I decide to leave. He doesn't want to work, he would rather be 'outside enjoying the sunshine' in his words. Don't we all, but that's not the way life is for us, why he hasn't accepted that this is the way society is, as in, we hav to work to pay bills and buy food etc is beyond me, especially since he is nearly 40.

He considers himself to be my carer now. Because I have been so depressed he has done the lion share of chores and care for my daughter but now I am thinking he was a MAJOR contibuting factor to my depression and my reason for not wanting to get out of bed most about cause and effect.

He has just come back from his interview, and I basically said I don't want to be with him anymore and that's that. It just sort of, came out.. confused
I explained the reasons for wanting to be a single mum now and there was a lot of nasty glares from him. He eventually said " you know what will make me happy, if you pack your bags leave and take that child with you"

My response, I just laughed. I am actually surprised at my strength. Half an hour later he is playing with our daughter and said he only went for the interview for us. I said 'for you, you mean, the job will be good for you because I wont be here' He is now sitting at the table quiet and brooding. Joy.

I am glad I said what I had to say though, because he tried to instantly do the tit for tat thing again and I am just not interested. He has an excuse, answer for everything and it is always someone else's fault (mostly mine).

BreatheandFlyAway Tue 19-Feb-13 15:24:48

Ha ER I had the "it's all about you, everything's all about you, blah blah blah" only this morning! This is because for the third time in 10 years of having dcs, I planned to take my two to DM's overnight. Can you imagine the cheek I have - truly evil and selfish, aren't I grin.

YY to effing boring conspiracy theories! God he's a bore about it and quite frankly not all that intelligent or grounded on actual facts. Just lots of hysterical ranting, YAWWWWWWN!!

Today unfortunately I have high temp and feeling dreadful so may have to cancel trip to dm's tomorrow morning sad the trip was my stand against him as well as a nice thing to do obviously. Now the fecker will think he's won. Idiot (sorry, bit ranty due to temp and poorly tummy!)

Noonelistens Tue 19-Feb-13 16:24:32

We appear to have found the one area where FW's differ!! There are clearly two subspecies - the silent and moody one, and the angry shouting one.

I have a silent one. He rarely shouts. If I upset him I get the silent treatment or one word answers. I'm not shouty either so our house is quite quiet when DD is in bed grin

But yy to being unable to discuss issues. If I dare to bring up something that I'm not happy with the standard reply is "oh yes, it's all my fault as usual" said in a really sarcastic way. And then that's it, end of discussion, silence until he deigns to speak to me again.

No real changes with me. Still desperately trying to get hold of his phone so I can photograph the texts I saw and really hoping they are still there. Actually considering tiptoeing into his room and stealing it at night when I think he's asleep. Is that crazy? The only thing stopping me is I can't think of a reason fro being there if I did disturb him (and he is a light sleeper).

My goal is to have actually have spoken to a solicitor before the end of this thread. Not too scary, I think I can achieve if and now I've said it I have to,

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 19:26:46

Oh the silent treatment. My FW is adamant that he never gives silent treatment, apparently he is just thinking. hmm Well that's all well and good, but he chooses to do his thinking by sitting next to me on the bed and staring at the wall for like an hour. Very uncomfortable and intimidating, he would never own up to that though. Other examples of silent treatment have been glaring at me, with a snarl and heavy breathing......all in the name of thinking. Yep, that figures.

noonelistens I'm not sure what to suggest with regards to the phone thing. I suppose you could say if he woke up, you couldn't sleep (for whatever reason) and wanted to have a chat, you knocked and he didn't answer so you came in to wake him up. Gaslight the fecker, why not these men are experts at it. grin

In other news, I had a nap and upon waking he is now a changed man. He has sorted out the bills, yes you heard right, ' he made a few calls' apparently. At first, his 'made a few calls' statement sounded like he was trying to insinuate that he was making arrangements to move out, but when I didn't respond he elaborated further and said 'Oh I called British Gas'...He then went on to apologise for his 'mean and spiteful words earlier' The one where he told me to pack my bags, this is VERY unusual for him to say sorry on his own accord. I just said, 'that's fine, I am used to it but I accept your apology'.

Wondering whether this is a case of too little too late and if I have already mentally checked out.

TisILeclerc Tue 19-Feb-13 19:42:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TieredConfusedMummy Tue 19-Feb-13 20:18:30

Hi all, it's me. Sorry I'm not replying to anyone elses posts. Only got in half an hour ago and H is giving me the sad moody him.

I told H yesterday I would be out at uni late today, and that I wouldn't be home untill about half seven. Well I got in a 7:35 and the first thing H says is 'where have you been'. I asked him what he meant as I'm home when I said I would be, and he tells me he's been worried as I didn't let him know I was leaving uni. He then told me that I stunk of food and asked if I had really been at uni... wtf. I questioned him over it and he starts gaslighting me, telling me I had said I'd be home at 7, that he hadn't said had I really been at uni, but had I been at uni hmm Oh also I was meant to be getting a new phone delivered today, but it's gone to the neighbours (my fault it would seem...) also a new sim for my old phone came, even though it's cancelled. So H starts grilling me as to wheather it's really cancelled, if it is then how come they sent me a new sim etc etc etc

A slight bit of progress though today. My sister know knows I am debating leaving H, so I had a good old chat with her about it, and she's being very supportive.

Bad point, I relented and told H we would give it one more try. I'm so angry with myself. I am staying detached though and observe how the real him slips through, like today.

Sorry for the self indulgent post

Lahti Tue 19-Feb-13 20:20:56

eternalrose your FW sounds like bloody hard work (aren't they all) and so rude. They all seem to think that everyone owes them a favour.
Well my H is still being 'nice' today he bought me some smoked salmon and said to take my time in the bath.
I was reading one of the Dr Irene links ^^ above today and I was shocked to see one that I could have written word for word. This is what I need to remember everyday.

TisILeclerc Tue 19-Feb-13 20:26:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

foolonthehill Tue 19-Feb-13 20:44:06

I never got Mr Nice either LeClerc. I think they thought we were well trapped by the years, the DC and our faith sad and didn't need to bother. On looking through the begging letters where NSDH is asking to return, he can't even turn on the charm there...he still says "I love you" you are a controlling,know-it-all who talks through the back of your neck, (loose but accurate paraphrase)!!! And this is him wooing me !! So i ask myself, why did I stick it out so long??

CharlotteCollinsislost Tue 19-Feb-13 20:47:28

listens, why do you want evidence from the phone? Is it to convince yourself that he's cheating? Or to show to friends and family to convince them? Or to show to a solicitor as evidence of unreasonable behaviour? Or something else? I'm not sure there's a good enough reason to put yourself in danger. And it does seem a bit underhand, although I admit that's sometimes unavoidable in our relationships, unfortunately.

Rose, wow! So what now? What's your plan for leaving?

CharlotteCollinsislost Tue 19-Feb-13 20:54:06

So he's still being controlling, then, Lahti? "I know what's best for you, dear, and tonight it's a nice long soak." I'd've been tempted to say, "No, thanks, I'm going to read a book/watch some TV/go out to see a friend," just to be deciding for myself how to relax. wink

(PS - I wouldn't, actually, I'd meekly go for the bath and wonder why I felt cross and if I was just totally useless at relationships, and not even think about whether I really wanted this bath, because even if I realised I didn't, I would still feel that that showed something wrong with me.)

Lahti Tue 19-Feb-13 21:26:39

charlotte smile I know but it is do ingrained into me. At least I recognise it now. I feel like I need to freeze time until I have spoken with the counsellor again so that I don't weaken in my point of view. Interestingly he hasn't mentioned any if discussion about our relationship at all tonight. I am guessing he will bring it up at 11pm when I just want to fall asleep.

CharlotteCollinsislost Tue 19-Feb-13 21:41:59

That would be my FW's tactic, too. Go to bed at 10:30pm to beat him at his own game! grin

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 21:44:53

I see someone else also has a partner that likes to bang on and on about the conspiracies.

My partner has been very very nice to me during my relationship but he has also been very mean. I actually dont think he is a bad person, but he does have a lot of issues, clearly.

My plan is to allow my enlightenment to simmer in my head over the next few months, read books on the subject matter, start my CBT when I eventually come off the waiting list, and lose my weight. I have increasingly become fatter and fatter and now I am realising why my diets have never worked. I almost always felt the need to comfort eat. My enlightenment will be life-changing, I can see it now. It's as clear as day.

I start my training towards a professional career in September so will need to relocate for that. So, it will somewhere between now and then that I physically leave him.

Writing it all out like that does give me a pang of guilt and I feel scared about being a single mum because I have zero family support, but I feel that I need to have faith in my feelings and myself for once in my blimmin life.

Lahti Tue 19-Feb-13 21:48:54

Am in bed now with a 'headache'. Am reading as many links as possible ^^ to keep me focused. On the 20 signs you are dating a loser my H scored 16... Bloody hell I do pick em. Just done Dr Irene's red flags for abusive behaviour and low self esteem... That was sobering reading. I cannot believe that I have spent so long considering going to the Drs for anti d's and googling 'how to be a good wife' am so annoyed with myself.

CharlotteCollinsislost Tue 19-Feb-13 21:57:53

Argh.. I tried the submissive wife thing for a while to see if that would make me more content with my lot. Not sure I could actually tell the difference between contentment and depression at the time, though.

NoraLuca Tue 19-Feb-13 21:58:50

Just checking in... I don't have the internet in new house, so only come on MN when I'm staying with H & the girls. Don't like posting from work in case the Boss has some sort of mind control way of checking our internet history. Can't read the whole thread properly and respond to everyone but thinking of you all and hope it all works out thanks

Noone I have a silent FW too. He can go for ages wearing a face like a smacked arse, not saying a word. He says nothing is wrong, when it blatantly is. He won't tell me what's bothering him, I'm supposed to guess. Then, I can guess what to do to make everything OK. Now and then he goes ballistic and smashes any poor object that comes to hand, or goes into a sweary horrible rage. Feck that, I walked out grin still on a bit of a high here grin

Tieredconfusedmummy don't be cross with yourself, maybe you need to take your time making your decision so that later you won't have any regrets.

Don't have a fridge yet but luckily the house is so cold that I don't need one grin all sounds rather Dickensian grin but a relative is giving me a fridge, will bring it over at the weekend.

The DDs still don't want to stay overnight with H without me. DD1 could probably be persuaded but not DD2. I don't want to take DD2 home because not sure what DD1 would think about that. DD1 is only 6 so can't really express what she's feeling all that clearly yet. H did used to spend quite a lot of time with the DDs before we split up, but not things supervising mealtimes and bedtimes and that. Quite a lot of changes for everyone to get used to.

NoraLuca Tue 19-Feb-13 22:01:36

Charlotte maybe submissive wife is OK if you have a perfectly lovely husband who puts your wishes before his own and is guaranteed to always do so, always. If you have a FW on the other hand... you'd risk squishing down your personality and not being happy but unable to leave the situation.

FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 22:21:40

Mr Nice!? Who's he? sad Charm reserved for everyone else...

v. worried about why I put up with it for so long hmm others noticed small changes that I was just so busy minimising and normalising its sickening...

Noonelistens Tue 19-Feb-13 22:34:21

charlotte I want to see the phone partly as proof for me but also to show to a solicitor. I wouldn't show to family or friends as I think that would be wrong and I'm desperately trying to keep the moral high ground. I think the main reason is that he's so good at persuading me and others that he's perfect and I'm bad that I want concrete proof that he cannot dispute. Is that crazy?

TisILeclerc Tue 19-Feb-13 22:36:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 22:40:55

How do you all feel about dating again? I feel terrified if I am honest. I am hoping to work on myself before I dive into anything but I seemingly cant se the wood from the trees where men are concerned confused

FairyFi Did you have an abusive childhood, Dr Irene says it is quite common to see women in abusive relatonships since they have never had a sense of self.

Charlotte I too tried the submissive thing, and I thought it was contentment but I think it was deep depression really.

Nora Thinking of you.


FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 22:57:46

sense of self or no eternal he was responsible, I might have been lucky, I might have been unlucky.. I was unlucky sad like all these other ladies, some good childhoods, some not.

To answer your other generral question.. no .. no datin for me. I really would really rather stay on my own while I work this out for myself, similar to you.

very cool Leclerc yep, tis scarey, but I think you've definitely done the right thing by them. I hope it all stays quiet for you, but no harm being on alert, you know him best about that... take care xxx

Leclerc, good for you spending the email. I hope you manage to weather the storm. I pray it never happens that I need to cease contact for my dc as I would be terrified to do so.


NoraLuca Tue 19-Feb-13 23:14:13

EternalRose I'd love to meet someone else but the thought of a serious live-in relationship scares the life out of me. As does the thought of casual relationships. hmm I'd be so happy to meet a nice guy. I also worry I'll meet a grade A bastard and launch into another catastrophic relationship and find myself another 10 years down the line with a few more kids, loads more ishoos and a future as a crazy cat lady... how do you meet blokes, anyway? I've forgotten.

FairyFi maybe you just wanted to save your relationship and tried to make yourself accept things? When you're on the outside it's easy to see what the person should be doing, but if you're in the middle of a complicated relationship with a FW who you love, or used to love, it's not easy at all to know what to do. IMO, anyways.

Leclerc fingers crossed for you.

BreatheandFlyAway Tue 19-Feb-13 23:17:44

leclerc well done, you are a great mum and very courageous.

Dating? Right now I feel like never, never again. The thought of letting someone else into my and dcs' lives who might lay the ea trap under another guise is far too frightening. As Fi says, I will concentrate on working things out for myself/ Also mainly on kids, health and family. I'm not a good picker due to childhood events, certainly.

TisILeclerc Tue 19-Feb-13 23:20:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EternalRose Tue 19-Feb-13 23:22:12

Leclerc Sending you a virtual hug.

Nora I also worry about all the same things you do. I have always said to myself I only want the one child but now I am wondering whether the thought of having more children with FW was what I didn't like. Casual sex also worries me because I do not want to be used for sex and I worry that this is what happens with this sort of thing. I have always been a relationship or nothing type girl. I havent really thought about the living with another man thing in a lot of detail, but already I can tell I am not keen on the idea.

Maybe us ladies should all move in together, in one big house grin

Fairy Dont be hard on yourself for putting up with so long. The last few days it has been really hard for me to own up to the fact that I may be in YET another relationship that is abusive. I always thought abuse was the 'obvious' kind, rape, name calling and hitting really. But that's only just the start (I know that now) You have become enlightened now and that's the main thing.

FairyFi Tue 19-Feb-13 23:45:01

I would really hope enlightened, and I see the good place you are coming from eternal I wonder in terms of any potential future relationship, I am now frightened, yes, thats the right word match as although possibly enlightened, I'm not sure there's anything stopping it happening again, apart from 'stopping' !

I was thinking, just to take things even slower. Now I think no, these things are carefully timed to ensure the step up once feet well and truly under table, and each time I think of a measure of protection, I can also know their way through that hmm hmm I am STILL convinced that there are only a couple of decent guys out there, so I can sort of see where my problem might be confused ! blush grin

I hopeyou can get some rest Leclerc its not an easy place to be, having missed many nights of sleep myself over such things, but you are all locked up safe, and good idea to leave email til morn (that kept me up all night too!). take care xxx

ponygirlcurtis Tue 19-Feb-13 23:45:38

Thinking of you Leclerc - I hope, in a way, that he emails soon, so you can get that bit over with. You are a fab mum. <many, many hugs>

And everyone else - thinking of you all, although am off to bed now. <yawns and pledges to go to bed earlier tomorrow --as I promise myself every day-->

Not heard from Maggie for a few days - all ok (relatively speaking), chick? xx

EternalRose Wed 20-Feb-13 00:49:11

Hmmm, remind me to never look at FW youtube account again.

Just had a look at his comments on videos going back a few years, and some of them are racially offensive. Even moreso offensive is that FW is white and I am not, our daughter is mixed race.

What a mess.

minkembra Wed 20-Feb-13 01:04:37

Dating. I will probably give it a go. I always say fall off a horse get straight back on another one. not that he was a horse! grinwink

smarten up a bit get a profile up on a site that isn't POF. ex is on there and have heard bad things. start with a bit of chat for practise.

I have no problem with casual. i don't really want to introduce anyone new to the family but the odd date/ booty call would be ok wink

I'd really like to meet someone normal and contented but these things take time and i am fairly realistic about how many women my age there are with failed relationships online.

was single apart from casual things for a couple of years before i met ex. but before that i had one very long term bf who was lovely. everything my ex isn't. gentle shy loving. Broke my heart when it ended.
i still dream we are together and nearly cry when i wake up- didn't always dream about him it was just latterly when things were bad with ex. sure its not really old flame i was missing just what he represents.

And had one other lovely bf after that but was not ready.

so i do know there are good men out there.
and I'm not going to let experience with ex make me tar all men with same brush.

I think i may have subconsciously picked ex cos i thought it wouldn't last and I'd survive if he left as he was different from previous bfs... i just thought it would be fun for a few months and then burn out...and then didn't.

Need to do some work so i don't make same mistakes or reactive mistakes in future.

And also not set too much store by men.
I am fine on my own. a nice man would be nice but not essential.

minkembra Wed 20-Feb-13 01:17:43

er that is horrible. but it is all their insecurity. they pick on others to try to make themselves feel superior.

Ex claimed it was his work culture and i think that his work mates did normalise a lack of respect for women and minorities.

Sad to feel so insecure about themselves that they only feel better putting others down.

minkembra Wed 20-Feb-13 01:18:31

Am rambling again. must be bedtime.

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 07:24:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 08:10:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bertiebassett Wed 20-Feb-13 08:15:22

Hello everyone smile

Been a while since I posted...I've been busy at work...and everything at home is reaching the crescendo that I knew it would...

On the good side. DS seems absolutely fine with FW moving out, the mortgage company have agreed to transfer it to my sole name, and the CSA have organised FW's payments incredibly quickly.

On the bad side FW refuses to talk to DS about moving out (despite DS's requests!), and is playing the victim soooo much it's driving me crazy. I'm getting texts from him in the middle of the night about how broke he is, what an awful childhood he had, how sad it is that HE wont be able to buy a big house for him and DS, or take DS on holiday....and how fortunate I am to have family with financial sense security to help me out.

Anyway...his self pity is driving me to distraction...

I've not been able to catch up much on this thread...but welcome to all newbies!

Pony that's great news about the house! It must feel like things are really moving on for you now? Has the division of finances been sorted?

LeClerc it sounds like you're in the midst of it all...I'm glad that your DS is ok. It sounds like he knows exactly what's going on...amazing how intuitive they can be at such a young age...

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 09:11:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maybe show her the Bill of Rights from the top of the thread? Would it help to show her how far from that he is? Or would it be going too far? Poor dd2 and poor you having to negotiate this leclerc.

I mean, navigate this (I think!)

foolonthehill Wed 20-Feb-13 09:27:51

Hi all,

the received wisdom for the DCs is that you have to teach them to see abuse away from their family member (father) ie in the media, in films, in books etc. It's too confusing to point it out in someone they love and ends up being muddled up with their feelings of hurt and confusion and can backfire on us. They need to see the abuse for themselves rather than be shown it IYSWIM so DD2 will come to see it eventually but she may keep the Dad defence up on the surface much longer than she actually feels it because it's what she wants to see and believe.

well done all for the steps you are taking to see what is going on and to deal with it.

MrsMorton Wed 20-Feb-13 09:42:59

I'm on hols from work (I would rather be working) and I was looking fwd to going to the post office, shoe repairs and having a coffee, then hopefully phoning my mum for a chat.

H is driving me to the post office now, no coffee. Not allowed out today, I'll have to cycle extra miles when I'm back at work to get my shoes fixed and I can't talk to my mum. In fact I have to sit in the kitchen for now until he decides we can go.

In better news my closest friend is home so at least I feel better even if I can't make any phone calls.

Hissy Wed 20-Feb-13 10:18:57

Bertie Switch the phone off at night love. Only switch it on when you get up and feel like it and delete ALL his texts without reading them. tis the only way.

Don't let him get to you. HE DID THIS, now he has to leave.

MrsMorton Can you not tell him you'd rather take yourself off, save him the bother... I remember 'not allowed out' sad I ended up with agoraphobia, please don't let him do this to you? Get up now and go out. Please?

MrsMorton Wed 20-Feb-13 10:26:24

Hissy thank you, I can't it just doesn't seem worth the hassle although I have been allowed into the sitting room!

It would be laughable really if it wasn't so humiliating...

Hissy Wed 20-Feb-13 10:32:02

WTAF? You are aware how utterly idiotic a situation that is, aren't you?

What plans are you making to get out of this? what can you do? can your mum help?

You have a right to be in any room you like, go anywhere you want.

What ARE the consequences if you decided to go to a non-permitted room? what would happen if you went OUT?

Where the hell are you?, do you have a WA nearby?

WHEN you get out, you WILL laugh about it... in time. Others however will ALWAYS find it horrifying.

This is no way to live MrsM, it really isn't.

But you know that already, that's why you are here.

Keep posting, keep talking, and try telling others, can you tell your GP?, your mum?, your friend?

Hissy Wed 20-Feb-13 10:32:10

Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble. I've been out of my abusive situation 2 years and clearly forgotten how bad it can be.

MrsMorton Wed 20-Feb-13 10:34:52

Hissy I have taken huge steps in the last week by telling my mum and my two best friends, I need to build momentum though because my resolve keeps slipping although we are approaching tipping point where I really feel that soon I will leave the "orbit" that I feel trapped in.

I know it's ridiculous, that's why it's so hard to tell people, H is so lovely and wonderful when we're out or with other people, last night we had the step children over and I almost wanted to beg them to stay... it was such good fun and like the early days when we first met.

I know, I know, I know...

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 11:05:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 11:20:52

For all you amazing ladies that have got out, or managed to get fw out, were any of you in rented accommodation?

I am lead tenant on our agreement, although the dd comes out of fw's account.
If I were try to get the dd changed to my account would the letting agency need to do credit checks etc again?

I have been out of work since january, although I have received a decent amount of money this week from a ppi claim, so I can easily afford to keep the home running.

It wouldn't bother me to move out, although I would rather not disrupt dd2 (3).

BreatheandFlyAway Wed 20-Feb-13 12:11:09

Hi DFOD I would imagine if you wrote to your landlord with the change of bank details it would be routine. If you wanted to put the contract solely in your name they might require credit checks for the larger amount that you'd become solely responsible for. Depends probably on your relationship with LL, if there's an agent involved etc as to how much you tell them.

DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 13:02:39

Thanks Breathe
Agency involved as Ll lives abroad. Not sure how much I would need to tell them, could I not just request a change of account for direct debit?

BreatheandFlyAway Wed 20-Feb-13 13:16:55

I think if you can be sure your OH won't inform them, then maybe just write a brief factual note informing them of change of bank account. Legally you prob should inform them if your OH leaves but you could let them know some time after the event perhaps when it's a done deed and they've seen you've paid regularly etc. this is only off the top of my head so maybe check with someone you trust in RL!

Noonelistens Wed 20-Feb-13 13:24:39

leclerc I'm sure it will take DD2 a while to unlearn her bad habits (as it will all of us) Fool has given you soem great advice though. Perhaps you could talk through relationships on tv/films as they come up?

MrsM telling your friends and mum is a huge step. Well done. I've still told noone apart from on here, although my H is not as controlling as yours. ie I can go in whichever room I want, it;s just not very pleasant if I choose the 'wrong' one.

I'm wavering big time today. I can't get out of my head that looking at and photographing his phone is wrong and sneaky and not what I would want in a relationship (although I generally leave mine lying around and wouldn't be bothered if he did look as I've nothing to hide). Also I've been keeping a diary for 3weeks and when I read it back a lot of what I;ve written sounds so petty. More unhappy relationship than EA.

The only big thing is his refusal to tell me why he is taking DD to the doctors today - other than to say it is her feet and I should be able to see for myself what's wrong, Otherise it's lots of little things like calling my bottom fat (it's not), looking me up and down in a sarcastic way, refusing to buy something that I requested in the weekly shop, turning up the tv volume when I'm talking to him.... nothing really cruel and mean just low level nastiness.

I suppose I'll just keep recording and watching for evidence of an affair and see what happens. Somehow I feel like the bad guy and in the wrong and I was feeling so much more postive and clear headed earlier this week sad Have also agreed to go away for a weekend that I don't really want to do but couldn't think of a reason not to (and he had already decided that he was going and so it was case of either come or stay at home alone with DD which would probably be preferable but would have caused an almighty sulk)

Sorry for whinging

DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 13:25:56

Thanks again Breathe I am going to dig out original docs incase there is something in there.

Mrsmorton would you be able to stay at your mum's?

MrsMorton Wed 20-Feb-13 13:39:32

It's too far from work. I have made a resolution though. Details to follow! HOS(HOS=husband over shoulder!!)

minkembra Wed 20-Feb-13 13:44:03

leclerc you are brilliant and ds is brilliant. why are the so very young often able to see it clearly.

Dd2 will come round eventually. but daughters often dote on their dads no matter what.

My exes eldest was the same for long enough but no so much now after almighty power struggle last couple of years. she has been supportive of me though without us ever saying anything overt other then it us better over. (she did once wade in on my behalf at age of 12 very courageous!)

BreatheandFlyAway Wed 20-Feb-13 13:44:11

Listens everything you describe sounds serious, not petty. It sounds awful. We minimise what's happening to us just to get through the day.

DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 13:45:24

Noonelistens I know what you mean about things sound petty when you read them back, I think that's why I have done nothing for so long, even know I wonder whether I am showing narcissistic traits as I am no longer prepared to accept blame for the state of our relationship and for wanting things on my terms. We are currently on day 4 of a sulk because I dared to criticize comment on his dangerous driving.

Fw has spent the last 3 nights on the sofa, I have not cooked for him, answered the phone, processed invoices, done any of his laundry, bought any food for him, during the outburst before the sulk, he was raging how I do nothing for him, the business etc, his rows are always sweeping statements, can never give specifics when challenged.

I do feel that maybe I am being petty, deliberately cooking and eating early before he gets home from work, but then I'm only doing (or not doing) what he already claims.

DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 13:49:33

HOS grin
Or HOOHA - Husband out on his ass grin

MrsMorton Wed 20-Feb-13 14:39:41

HOOHA one day!!

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 15:07:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EternalRose Wed 20-Feb-13 15:52:43

He saw a number I had written down for RISE. He says adamantly that he has never been abusive to me, he said he has done a few bad things but not abusive.

I am absolutely broken today and have a headache because I have been crying so much.

He said, for his physical and emotional wellbeing he needs to be without me, with 'limited contact'.

He has punched me in the head before, and broke his hand. Apparently I had hit him first, but my recollection of that incident is a bit sketchy so I am not too sure on that one. But he was arrested and put into a cell overnight and was cautioned.

In fact he thinks I am the emotional abuser, and I am the aggressive one. I admit that I have been a screaming, hysterical mess during arguements and I have lashed out but only because it has felt like he was twisting everything I was saying, and making me frustrated.

I physically cant cope anymore, feel suicidal.

EternalRose Wed 20-Feb-13 16:17:21

And so far I have got nowhere with WA support.

Called them 5 times yesterday, didnt get through. Called them today, got through was given the number for RISE, an organisation in the next county that deals with domestic abuse. Called RISE 6 times, couldn't get through. Called just now, and they have given me a number for another organisaton to call...

Feel hugely unsupported and isolated. Just want to go to sleep and never wake up.

Noonelistens Wed 20-Feb-13 16:24:42

ER could you and talk to your doctor or health visitor - at least so you can speak to someone face to face. They might be able to put you in touch with someone local or a counsellor that you can talk things through?

FairyFi Wed 20-Feb-13 16:37:09

oh Eternal very sad to hear you are so down right now sad

I know that WA are very very busy, but you really need to speak to them, and not be relayed to yet another number.

He will, of course, always deny his responsibility and blame you, that much we can expect, but just because he does that it doesn't mean we have to take his responsibility in this.

If he has punched you i the head so hard he broke his hand!!!!!!!!!!!! you are at risk, seriously.

Certainly not alone tho, with all the ladies on here suffering/ed different and similar. We're all here to offer support wherever we can to help you feel stronger and to move away from him. (((big hugs))) hun.. you take care... xxxxx Do WA have outreach services in your area? Oh and, there are the occasional phone advisors who really shouldn't be doing this! but others are absolutely wonderful and will do everything to help and support possible. Hang on in there, its bloody tough, but do keep going and call more. The more ppl you tell in RL the better support and real this will feel, as in where the boundaries lie.

((more hugs))) take care xxx

DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 16:52:41

EternalI don't have any practical help or advice for you, but Fi is right, you are not alone.

With previous dv on record, could you not call police and have him removed, get some breathing space?

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 17:29:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EternalRose Wed 20-Feb-13 18:03:10

I lash out and hit him during these 'discussions' maybe I really am the abusive one here.


DoFuckOffDear Wed 20-Feb-13 18:35:15

Eternal I don't think that you really believe it's you with the problem.

He's just done a bloody good job of twisting everything, he wants you to believe he's the victim.

He's not!! He's an abusive twat.


TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 18:47:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I am shock about the voicemail leclerc, but it is indeed great that your dad has heard this for himself. How is dd2 at the moment r.e London?

Comedy central here today: FW has had a valentine's card and poem through the post. I know he hasn't sent it to himself as it isn't his writing and there are spelling mistakes in it that he wouldn't never make.
First he asked if I'd sent it (!) and then said I'd have to come home soon as he'd be snapped up! I told him to fill his boots and reeled off a few potential candidates, asked him if he'd been using too much Lynx... He then asked who was doing the winding up as he wasn't getting the insane jealousy he wanted. I honestly felt nothing other than amusement as there are no feelings left.
Unfortunately, it went sour with dd as she told me he'd shouted at her for spilling some milk. He told her she was lying, so she came and whispered to me that she wasn't. Then he went off on one, saying he wasn't having this and she could go back home with me. Cue tears from her. I got them ready for home and then he picked her up and hugged her and started trying to comfort her. I told him he was messing with her emotions as he had done with me.
Then got the " Oh it's all my fault, isn't it?!" Yes, FW, it IS all your fault!
I have also been told I won't be welcome in the house after the divorce, to which I replied "No problem!"
He actually thinks after that performance that dd will still want to spend 2 days away from me to go and visit the dsds. I doubt that very much!

*wouldn't ever blush

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 20:41:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

How long are they away for?

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 20:46:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ponygirlcurtis Wed 20-Feb-13 20:52:43

Hugs, Leclerc, for you in the empty-seeming house. The voicemail is classic. Hope your dad is able to keep it, or record it/download it to somewhere to keep a copy safe, for future use if needed. No problem with recording them without their knowing here!!!

Rose - how are you doing now? Hope you are feeling a bit better and that got through to someone. Could you go and stay with someone for a few days, to give you a bit of head-space?

CharlotteCollinsislost Wed 20-Feb-13 21:04:02

listens, I felt just the same back in October as you do now. I had a feeling things weren't right, but no convincing (to me) evidence in my just-started journal. I felt so frustrated that I couldn't sort the whole thing out in an evening and KNOW what was going on! It took a couple of months more of reading, journalling, thinking, and a bit of talking to selected people about some of it, before I had the confidence to recall that I had sensed his behaviour was "not right" for years. That, and the shock other people had at things which seemed petty to me, has given me strength. Hold on in there. x

Leclerc - shock at the voicemail. Thought coincidences like that only happened in novels and films!

BreatheandFlyAway Wed 20-Feb-13 21:25:36

leclerc shock at the voicemail! Do you reckon the TOD had a paw in it?!

Bertiebassett Wed 20-Feb-13 21:26:01

LeClerc the answer phone message rang so many bells with me! FW is always NOT turning his phone off...then putting it in his pocket or bag where it rings me and I get to hear 5 minutes of him walking somewhere, or chatting with someone. That fact that your DF got an argument...about surely an added bonus smile

I keep thinking that were actually lucky to have mobile phones now. Through them we have evidence of FWittery. Only today I decided to show family some of FWs texts. There were a bit shock especially at the one where he suggested the 'real reason' I wasn't prepared to give him his 'pay off' early...because deep down I didn't really want him to leave... Yeah right...of course it's nothing to do with the fact that I'd be blooming crazy to give him his share of the equity before he actually moves out!

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 21:27:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

minkembra Wed 20-Feb-13 21:32:39

er hang in there keep trying.
If you are really not coping call the samaritans they are there to talk when you need them.

And you always have us.
I have the same thing sometimes. details are hazy and i start wondering if i was hostile or uber nippy or overly critical. it us hard not to criticize though when for example i could see him stuffing up his relationship with his older kids. but then i he reasonable? Does he ever really apologise? And how come i get on fine with everyone except him and yet he falls out with people regularly.

foolonthehill Wed 20-Feb-13 23:09:07

ER that is the problem with emotional abuse so often it is the one suffering from the abuse who looks like they are behaving the worst.
If you can take a step back and detach, imagine your DP in his own bubble with his words and actions hitting the inside of the bubble but not coming out at you, write them down, name them but don;t own them. Once we stop reacting to the things that they do and say it is easier to see what is going on. Their behaviour keeps us doubting ourselves and losing ourselves in reaction rather than action.
You will get there lovely lady, and keep posting and reading.
You are not mad, he is bad, (and we are dangerous to know wink)

foolonthehill Wed 20-Feb-13 23:12:18

leclerc I love your life (no, not really but you know what I mean) every time you do a really difficult thing that you feel conflicted about and (I imagine) sometimes bad about, your own lovely FW does something completely crazy that totally affirms you in your action. Not only this but he shows his true colours to your main support!! (and if he carries on like that to his own best support too!)
Gain strength from this.

TisILeclerc Wed 20-Feb-13 23:26:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FairyFi Thu 21-Feb-13 01:12:45

how do they do that, where do they go to learn this stuff, is so bloody true. I always looked like the one behaving weirdly, not trusting what was being said to me. I wouldn't even begin to know how to 'manage' someone in that way, it does make me think how strange and deviated their minds are to contrive everything, absolutely everything.

Sitting in the dark here with DD wondering whether we're off to hospital; so hoping this is the last parting shot of bugs for the winter now sad the out of hrs doc is just taking hours to get here!

hurrah for your FW shooting himself in the foot Leclerc

Hope you ok eternal?

thinking of you maggie hope you doing ok, just not seen you for a bit.. hope that might mean busy packing up and going? xx

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 07:57:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

minkembra Thu 21-Feb-13 08:22:11

leclerc surprised they actually wrote you a letter. but as you know ultimately there is only one judge and it ain't them.

Keep your head up high you have nothing to be ashamed of.

One of my friends said last night, I admired your patience and perseverance. so what i had some to see as a failing on my part she saw as a strength.
You tried leclerc. if you gave it your best shot and it was still not right then it is not you that failed.

Ss for where for they learn. ex picked a lot of inappropriate beliefs from his upbringing but with him it was just instinct. he never thought about any if it or manipulated me. just opened his mouth and out it came because it was coming straight from an underlying belief that woman have a certain role and he has certain entitlement. no thinking required.

Lahti Thu 21-Feb-13 08:34:39

Just catching up after busy day yesterday. eternal please keep trying WA. leclerc. so glad your dad heard that voicemail message, I bet he couldn't believe what he was hearing especially about not doing enough to keep you in line.
matchsticks hilarious valentine card story.

As predicted I am regretting my ultimatum with H on Sunday as now he is being the model husband... Letting me stay in bed while he does DDs breakfast, making me cups of tea I am even going shopping on my own on Saturday! I really wanted to speak to the counsellor before I told him how I felt but I just COULD NOT face sleeping with him. How awful is that? The thing is I know it won't last but it just makes me feel awful that he can be nice. I want to say that he has to go to counselling on his own before I can think long term.
Ringing counsellor this afternoon.

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 09:20:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yummytummy Thu 21-Feb-13 10:56:55

hi all i hope someone is here just to listen. things had been calm for a bit and FW acting a bit normal but i guess i should have known it wouldnt last. i feel so stupid to keep hoping that he will somehow change and see how awful he is but i guess not.

its when i try to confront him if he has done something that upsets me that i get a bad reaction. i was upset about him going in to the little one in the morning as if she sees him she gets overexcited and then he goes off to work and it takes ages to feed and dress her. ok a minor thing but it got to me and i said something very calmly like why did you go in. "oh u never get up u lazy cow how did i know u were going to u stupid bitch etc etc and then i walked away and he decided it would be a good idea to throw my clothes down the stairs. the next day i confronted him with it he completely turned it onto me making the whole thing into my fault and he doesnt know how he put up with me etc etc.

i started to get upset then fucking shut up and i had been dryimg my hair he picked up hairbrush and threw it at me hit me on the head then threw my hairdryer across the room. i was crying ans said u hit me he just denied it even though he blatantly had and said no i threw it at the floor

my head just feels so so fucked i dont know which way is up and am tired of detaching myself emotionally some days i justcant do it as well as others

anyway i am trying to gather strength to get out have appt with solicitor today and am going to see some housing people but then i have moments where i collapse in tears and think how will i cope alone when every day i get called useless stupid or somethinge else i try so hard not to believe it but sometimes i cant block it out.

how an i extract myself. i cant bear this crap amy longer just want one day where i can breathe and relax and maybe one day i will be able to smile and tyhink of myself as more than a nothing useless waste of space

thanks for listening just had to get it out somewhere

Lahti Thu 21-Feb-13 11:03:15

yummy I don't have much advice as I am we here too but do you have anyone you can talk to? friend, family or counsellor? I know what you mean about them being normal but you have just highlighted to yourself (and me) that they don't change. The ladies here are all lovely, I'm sure some will be along soon x

Lahti Thu 21-Feb-13 11:03:50

new here too. PHONE

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 11:14:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CharlotteCollinsislost Thu 21-Feb-13 11:19:16

Oh yummy, that sounds so so tough. He is a total FW and always will be (well, I suppose there's a tiny chance of change, but never while you're still with him), but it's entirely natural to hope and believe in goodness.

Good on you planning to see the solicitor. You would feel so much better and more competent on your own, but no surprises that you can't see that because he's been beating you down literally and psychologically for so long that you don't know who you are. I'm sure it's going to be a great adventure finding out. Just think of a quiet house, with no shouting, put-downs, criticisms, just peace. Sunshine, birdsong and a brew in hand - the good things in life only. Spring might be the best time of year to leave!

I'm wittering, but sending you strength. Hold onto that little belief you have that you must get out and that you're worth it. After all, how will you know what it's like until you try?

CharlotteCollinsislost Thu 21-Feb-13 11:23:06

Leclerc, I'm not surprised that got you upset - judgement is hard to ignore. Will you tell your pastor or keep quiet? Would be nice to hear a sermon next Sunday on "Judge not, lest you be judged." wink You can never tell what's really going on in someone else's marriage, but unfortunately there are people around who think they know everything.

CharlotteCollinsislost Thu 21-Feb-13 11:23:53

Pharisees! grin

foolonthehill Thu 21-Feb-13 11:27:42

yummy I can almost promise that actually your life will be easier once he is no longer there messing with your emotions, your thoughts and your life...
imagine waking up and you get to see your little one, start the day together, sort things drama, no shouting, no messing with the truth, your head, your emotions.....imagine that, it is great.

I can honestly say that even though being a lone parent is hard, it is so much easier than being a lone parent with an overgrown toddler messing things up all the time..and this is even though i have no real life support in the way of family (some good friends but not practically helpful).

Keep going, you can reclaim your life, you really can.

foolonthehill Thu 21-Feb-13 11:29:19

leclec really feel for you. have very similar experiences...all i can say is that they have not walked in your shoes, they probably have no idea what it is really like, but prepare yourself 'cos FW is going to use it

Busybusybust Thu 21-Feb-13 11:29:52

Or, Leclerc, 'judgement is mine sayeth the Lord'. Seriously these people should know better than to judge something hey do not have full knowledge of.

minkembra Thu 21-Feb-13 12:47:48

yummy i think the first step is when you finally realise they probably won't change. sounds like you are there.

He won't change unless he is fully prepared to take responsibility for his behaviour. not saying well it is only because you did this or if you didn't do x i wouldbn't have to do y.

I finally realised a couple if months ago that really no he did not have the right to swear at me and call me names.

and i do feel better without him. it is stressful still but a lot less stressful and the kids are settling down.

It is entirely up to you when or if you decide to leave but just know we believe you, we are listening, we know how tough it is, we don't think it us your fault or that what he does is not ok.

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 13:20:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lahti Thu 21-Feb-13 16:09:46

Spoke with my counsellor again today, it's funny how it all seems clear when you speak to them isn't it? I mentioned about needing space and asking H to move in with his mum but explained about some of the impracticalities with childcare etc she had answers for all if them. Hmm, need to think how to bring it up.
I know this is common but does anyone else feel like that are being disloyal or as though they are overreacting when they speak to the counsellor? I feel like I am on an hour long rant fest.

Noonelistens Thu 21-Feb-13 16:19:27

leclerc you don't have to explain yourself to the church leaders at all. As others have said they really have no idea how it is to be in your shoes. One thing that all this has opened up to me is that you honestly never know what happens behind closed doors, even with your closest friends.

I go to church too (although not as often as I'd like thanks to H). A few years ago our church did a 5 or 6 week themed evening sermon course about marriage. There was a different aspect each week. At the time I was totally unaware that there was anything wrong in my marriage. However one thing that really stuck out with me is that while it is wrong to divorce just because you've fallen out of love or want different things, it is not wrong to divorce if one partner has broken the marriage vows. And I think EA definitely falls into breaking the marriage vows. So as I said I really don't think you have to explain yourself but if you wanted to could you write back and say "thanks for the concern. FW has broken our marriage vows and I do not want to talk about it but the damage is too great to be repaired". I really think the church is here to support you. Yes, they can rebuke people when they do wrong, but you have not done anything wrong and do not have to answer to them. Let him that is without sin throw the first stone and all that.

Noonelistens Thu 21-Feb-13 16:27:35

yummy you are not a waste of space. Your H just wants you to think this so that you rely on him and stay tuned in to his EA. Keep posting here. Everyone understands what it is like and how much you can doubt yourself and what's going on.

lahti I've not been to a counsellor, but everytime I go to write in my journal I feel like I'm being disloyal, recording all his faults (when I acknowledge that I have faults too), stabbing him in the back. I think this is what I find hardest. I don't want to make his life miserable or screw him for every penny he's got or any of those things - I just want to be relaxed and happy and myself.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Thu 21-Feb-13 18:16:18

Just stopping in to say hello. It's been almost a week, and H is back here again. I won't go into details how, as part of it is "kicking myself for listening" and part of it was beyond my control and manipulation.

Less than a week, he stated he knows how awful he has been and he wants us to be together and will do everything he can to prove it to me. That would be why we've had ONE... count it... ONE... day where he hasn't been shouting.

At least I can make my decision with a clear conscience. I've tried.

FairyFi Thu 21-Feb-13 18:20:20

I'm so glad there was no FP today! I worried so about going last week after the previous two having done my damned to convince that I was schizoprenic, I would have turned up as bag lady me today!

After getting to sleeping at about 4 or 5 when the doc finally left and then fitfully on the sofa as awoken by all the night noises; thankfully no rush to hospital, allayed by some very strong meds and a sharp shit in the right direction upon waking this morning, phew relief! but if i'd had to go there too, eyes on stalks, blithering... well.. I know we don't go there to make an impression, but I'm happy to not add to the one i've started!

Sending hugs for strength to all, but suitably battered at this end of the day for little coherent speak.. just gonna crawl to get dinner and tonight was my night out too sad - as there was a sleepover all arranged so I'd have had freeeeeeeeeeeedom, all night hmm xx

Hope you can pop by and say hi Maggie and that you are much better today. Seems temps are now on the way back up here so, must fly xx

FairyFi Thu 21-Feb-13 18:22:23

oooo gawd! not shit ! shift in the right direction! Maybe both produce relief.. oo dear! and that should have said damnedest by probably neither make much sense.

yummytummy Thu 21-Feb-13 18:56:37

hi thanks for all the support its so helpful to know am not alone and that its def not me and that it actually is all their fault not ours.

anyway just got in from solicitor and it was amazing. i just didnt know that it was possible to get things like injunction orders etc in place so quickly and all the things about how he still has to pay bills etc. its weird to think that if i ever get out i will actually be better off financially as it wont be up to him to decide what he thinks is enough for housekeeping and the courts will have forced him to pay whatever amount it is monthly. he will go mental and try to get at me through the kids but will worry about that later.

i didnt realise how expensive it all was though, i was quoted £8000-10000 for the whole thing is that right? have no idea about this stuff. i have savings but this will use most of them.

it just seems like an impossible dream at the moment of living just peacefully with nothing to deal with each day. we just get used to it i guess so the little pushes and shoves and snipes and digs are just every day life and you lose sense of whats acceptable. its like u dont even react any more as its just normal. there was a time i would have cried when he threw the hairbrush at me but this time i was just like oh well at least he didnt beat me with it.

there is just a lot of sadness that a 19 yr relationship has come to this and he has thrown it all away by being a total FW.

i feel a weird sense of peace, i know it will be a messy process but i want to leave while i am still alive and have a chance of a life. even if i am single forever with the kids at least i will be alive. i want to choose my own bedsheets and when i am allowed to have the heating on and when i can get my haircut. just the stupid things of life that we are denied. i want myself back. i am sick of waking up crying every day that i am here and what crap will happen today am just fed up.

also i hope when i am in a better place i can offer support to others on here too. it feels so good to let it out as i really dont have anyone in rl family and friends all on his side as he is the golden boy and i ama troublemaker for telling lies and upsetting the family. and for thinking of taking kids away from their dad. everyone blames me and when i go there isnt one physical person who will support me. oh well i know it is what needs to be done.

yummy no idea re costs... but that does sound expensive, can you get a few more quotes or speak to Women's Aid to get an idea of what you should/shouldn't be paying for?

Reading your first post earlier, sounds classic d*ckhead. How awful and it was TOTALLY not your fault!

My H has just upset DD terribly, won't go into too much detail but involved him lecturing her about how fat she was and how she shouldn't have anything for dinner except a salad and how she'd never get a boyfriend because of her size... this is a 17 year old girl (who I might add has an offer for an Oxbridge uni, very hard worker and so clever, I am still turning cartwheels with pride and to be fair he's proud as well) with a fragile ego and he just laid into her. Then she ran crying upstairs he asks me why she is 'having a fit' ...?? it is like he is on another planet! I've told him before that it's a no-go area (and she isn't really isn't fat enough to merit all that) and he must have known what he was doing. I have an appointment with Women's Aid tomorrow morning and I sent them a long email today, was quite cathartic to write it, hope I make it there as it's 10:00 and I can't leave until after he's left for work... will be tight for time. I'm feeling like it's the right thing to do, was wavering earlier this week as I can convince myself he's not that bad, sometimes.

LeClerc I think that it is a shame that there are some in your church who would 'blame' but it may be a time that they can learn to be more accepting? Hope your kids are OK, I was furious and so sad on your poor DS's behalf when I read about what FW had done.

Not much time to post these days but hope everyone is progressing. Good luck to all!

Fi... LOL re: shi(f)t! grin

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 20:00:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 20:01:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yummy costs sounds about right. That's what I was quoted too, but we have come to an agreement between ourselves so won't be that much.
I could have written a lot of your post about the level of control over what seem like innocuous things. You will be a different woman once you are out, I promise you.

foolonthehill Thu 21-Feb-13 20:16:39

I think that is a reasonable estimate for doing everything thru' solicitor. And worth every penny if your NSDH is not going to be helpful about anything

ponygirlcurtis Thu 21-Feb-13 20:44:36

I've been reading this thread for the last hour, and laughing hysterically. Only my laughing has quite often gone into hysterical crying - proper sobbing, rocking back and forth, gasping for breath. Anyone else get that? Or am i just really, really on the edge tonight?

NoraLuca Thu 21-Feb-13 21:58:33

Night all smile not been able to read all the posts since last time I was online but welcome to all the new people and keep on going! to all the oldies

Pony that thread is quite funny tbf. Maybe you were stressed anyway and it all came out when you relaxed enough to laugh? Fine line between laughing and crying sometimes.

I finally have my fridge! I got used to storing milk and butter on an outside windowsill like my great grandma used to...

H is being lovely, polite and kind since I left. He is how he used to be, way back when we first met. It's a bit unnerving to be honest.

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 22:10:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LemonDrizzled Thu 21-Feb-13 22:10:59

Just catching up tonight and read the whole thread through with pride at how well so many of you are moving along. It is such a long journey from the first shocked posting that we, intelligent sparky ladies that we are, have fallen into such a trap and need to get out, to the relaxed meanderings of the escapee posting from her sofa with a glass of wine and a smile.

I saw KateDillington's post of page 2 belatedly, and I'm so glad things have moved on for you. He can't keep up the denial for ever. You need to get a bit annoyed with your solicitor if he has gone AWOL. You are paying him after all!

I am almost through the last hurdle. NearlyXFWH is pushing for the last mediation meeting to sort out finances and it is driving him crazy that the solicitors are taking so long to fix a date. Me, I am chilled and love watching him rant and blame everybody else for the delays when he tried to save money on the divorce and filled the forms out wrong

I still read the thread and post if i can think of something helpful to add. But three years on life is so different and I am in such a lovely relationship now with a man who cherishes me and adores me much to my surprise. I can wander off from the Relationships topic which has been my salvation and post about exercise and housekeeping and all sorts of normal stuff!

LemonDrizzled Thu 21-Feb-13 22:14:15

Oh and Tis I think you are an amazing mum and your DS1 knows it and you have handled things perfectly! This is why you are being so strong, to give him a safe space to be himself and be happy and make mistakes without fear. Well done!

foolonthehill Thu 21-Feb-13 22:28:43

lemon you give me hope! 16 months and counting since he went...maybe in another 16 I'll be sounding like you.
Cherish each FW free more than deserve them my (virtual) friend!

Lahti Thu 21-Feb-13 22:36:10

Haven't read through since this morning but I spoke with the counsellor today which was really helpful. It gave me a bit if strength and this eve I told H that if he wanted any chance of me staying he needed to start counselling on his own and I wanted him to go to his mums for a few weeks to give me some space. He has agreed to counselling but not to go to his mums but has moved out of our bedroom. I told him the counselling for himself was non negotiable. I am still in shock that I just said it so matter of fact. We shall see what happens.

ponygirlcurtis Thu 21-Feb-13 22:57:41

Lahti - well done. What was his reason for not moving out? Just plain stubbornness, or does he have some 'plan' for making things work?

Leclerc - you are fab. What a lovely time for DS1, and a lovely time for you to spend with him. Just perfect. <pins medal to Leclerc>

I saw counsellor yesterday - howled. Saw HV today - howled. Not in a great place right now. Will post at some point about it, but can't bring myself to right now. Haven't heard back from WA referral for DS1 yet, so HV going to refer him through education psychology at his school, because she's concerned about him. And really, I am too. How could he not be deeply, deeply hurt that FW doesn't want to see him any more? (Even though I've never explicitly said that, DS1 keeps asking 'tell me again why I'm not seeing FW any more', as if the answer I give doesn't fit right probably because it's a fudge )

Sending love and hugs to everyone out there dealing with FWs and the trail of destruction they leave in their wakes. We deserve better. (But I am struggling to believe that for me right now. sad)

Lahti Thu 21-Feb-13 23:04:13

pony he feels that if he moved out it would affect DD negatively and also his mum may be less likely to continue childcare for us. I am not altogether convinced about these reasons but we shall see.

TisILeclerc Thu 21-Feb-13 23:50:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Noonelistens Thu 21-Feb-13 23:53:48

Nora - yay for the fridge
Leclerc - you sound like you're handling ds perfectly
Pony - it's good to let it out. Hope you get the help for ds1. Can he see that fw is a fw? Is he old enough to understand that it's fws fault and not his?

I'm going away with h for the weekend. Couldn't think of a good reason not to. But no Internet so no mn for 3 days. I'm not taking my journal either cos I can't risk him finding it.

FairyFi Fri 22-Feb-13 00:55:55

Pony yy to the crying for me, as things have come up and overwhelmed, and the crying can feel very overwhelming, including the rocking yes, its very basic and deep at your source of pain, comfort yourself hun; it s very draining, so expect to feel a bit shell shocked for some time, maybe the next day, and weary. Sometimes its hard to get to that release, and laughing hysterically can get to it, but its good, hun, and its the start of change deep within you. It wont hurt you and its very cleansing. just take care of yourself and it passes and you move on.

TheSilveryPussycat Fri 22-Feb-13 10:24:44

Oh yes I often knew I needed a cry, I used to cry at the drop of a hat when younger, but had moved on from depressed to stressed after issuing divorce petition - which probably made it harder.

All the better when it did come though.

TisILeclerc Fri 22-Feb-13 10:44:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TisILeclerc Fri 22-Feb-13 10:47:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

arthriticfingers Fri 22-Feb-13 10:59:48

Flippin' 'eck [anger]
and, yes, another FW letter all about (and there are no prizes for guessing this one) FW!
Particularly like the bit about 'triggering' and just how far from responsibility is that?
Mind you, also liked the bit about the psychotherapist; we all know how much FWs like the focus of attention to be entirely on them; what better place than in private psychotherapy?
The bit about 'permission' was pretty good, too, implying that he has been forbidded from doing so.
Why don't all FWs just f* off to the far side of f***?
Answer - they are probably having having such a good time they see absolutely no reason to stop now (sorry Freddy - no slurs meant)

arthriticfingers Fri 22-Feb-13 11:00:36

That should be angry
Here's another one for good measure angry

TisILeclerc Fri 22-Feb-13 11:04:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DoFuckOffDear Fri 22-Feb-13 11:50:25

Day 6 of the sulk. Fw is still sleeping on the sofa, I am still camping out in the bedroom, which actually feels quite decadent, lazing in bed all evening puffing on my e-cig.

Making for plans for weekend, just me and Dd. Fw will have sd2 on sunday, not a bad kid, she's 16, but way too used to his outbursts!! It's his gd's birthday (sd1's dc) so he'll throw some money in that direction but not spend anytime with them.
He doesn't like sd1's partner (in fairness no-one else does either) because........ he's abusive, yep fw you did a good job lowering your dd's expectation of a normal relationship.

FairyFi Fri 22-Feb-13 12:13:24

oh dear DFOD sad for your SD1's relationship sad the result of her father's grooming... mmm glad you're managing to enjoy his sulk! (revelling in your decadence) wink

Leclerc its so obviously all about him and how's he miraculously all better in the last months! Your father seems to be his route to you and back into your relationship?! Its his only way of convincing everyone of his lack of responsibility and way of lying his way out balancing the story more in his favour in light of recent developments of his making. Trying to speak to SS, etc. Trying to do everything to prove hes just fine and the kids are lying!!??! awful pig. So scary that he still refuses to see his extreme and excess physical and mood over something requiring complete nonchalence, in his words 'a tap on the head' - what for FW???? angry similar expletives shared with friend last night grin grin 'knob' was used to point of abuse (the word, you understand!!!) and 'bell-end' was another, and 'anker' lots too. Good words... tick oh so many more!

yummytummy Fri 22-Feb-13 12:38:01

leclerc that is awful these fw's really are messed up in the head and they actually do believe all the crap they come out with.

as for me i am weakening again as he actually said bye to me this morning which is a big deal as he has been blanking me since the hairbrush incident which of course was my fault. its awful as anything which is vaguely normal feels like heaven after a bad few days so you lap it up. i feel bad that i will be hurting him by getting an injunction order etc even though i know what he does isnt right but you just get used to it so it becomes your normal.

any strength or empowerment i had yesterday is gone and i feel firmly in my place again am annoyed with myself for being so weak.

TisILeclerc Fri 22-Feb-13 12:59:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FairyFi Fri 22-Feb-13 13:07:23

with you on that sentiment Yummy right back there now too. I am saying to myself that he talks shite and is just very good a put downs and putting me in my place, and its time I didn't stay in any place that he thinks I should be in!!!! aaaghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......

DoFuckOffDear Fri 22-Feb-13 13:36:28

Leclerc what was your fathers response to the email, presumably fw doesn't know that his rant was overheard?.

TheSilveryPussycat Fri 22-Feb-13 18:14:46

skips to end to comment on leClercs Fw's email.

The course 'helps to change me, and come to terms with my behaviour'

It's actually the behaviour he needs to change; plus there's an awful lot of comment about his poor old anger issues that he now realises made him that way.

Not Taking Responsibilty.

CharlotteCollinsislost Fri 22-Feb-13 19:39:55

Yes, I too thought that "come to terms with my behaviour" sounded like "I have reconciled myself to the fact that I do some awful things." hmm

Funny, though, his timing writing this so soon after that crossed line he doesn't know about!

Hissy Fri 22-Feb-13 20:06:30

LeClerc, what age is DS1? Does he have poo issues, holding then not being able to stop them coming eventually? My DS does, - think it's a side effect of DV on a child, a dstress signal. DS is getting there, gradually, but we are 2 years out.

Please, if this man beats your babies, for things they struggle with, he needs to Fuck the Fuck off, and not be allowed to see them. Until the DC are stronger.

His letter is continuing on from his overheard convo with his mother. He's appealing to your DF to get you back under control, because YOU are not able to run your own life, make your own decisions. It's YOU he needed to win over, you he has to prove himself to.

He's just trying to marginalise you, isolate you and get you pressured by yet another man, on his behalf.

Tell your DF that you'll handle this yourself, that he's heard the TRUE FW, and this is all smoke and bollocks.

Get this vile, dangerous man away from everyone around you!

BreatheandFlyAway Fri 22-Feb-13 21:07:07

Third time lucky! I keep losing my posts....

Sorry I've been awol, horrible noro like virus and very grouchy kids all half term. Poor dcs have been climbing walls as I've been lying on sofa groaning!

My previous lost post was basically strongly in support of you all, specially Pony as you sounded so sad. You're an inspiration and such a lovely person just on this thread, you must be a superstar in RL! Your kids are so very lucky they have you. smile

Leclerc, what all the others said re your fw's email. I'm glad your df had the accidental voicemail to measure against.

My fw was strangely supportive during my illness, he seems to be at his best when I'm down and broken- hmmmm funny that. Luckily now he is reverting to proper behaviour and has started ticking me off about doing things wrong etc so all good for me grin difficult to be hard nosed when someone's being pleasant and supportive. Also spoke to WA and enrolled myself on FP to keep myself strong and learning.

EternalRose Fri 22-Feb-13 21:57:09

Hi everyone,

sorry I have been awol a bit since last post. But been trying to get my head together, which is so difficult when I am still living under the same roof. I feel so confused in my head. I feel excited at the prospect of being on my own, a fresh start, but then I look at him sometimes and think maybe it's all in my head and I really have been the problem all along and maybe I could make it work, and on and on it goes. I can feel myself emotionally detaching and it's a very, very, strange experience indeed. It's almost as if I am outside myself if you know what I mean?

I hope everyone is well this evening.

BreatheandFlyAway Fri 22-Feb-13 23:02:41

Hi Eternal yes it is such a complex process. I recognise everything you say from my own experiences and I am sure many here do. Otherwise, intelligent women like us wouldn't stay in this situation. People on the outside do not realise the complexity of an EA relationship, being prisoner in one and the difficulty of leaving one. So once we start telling people in RL we have the added pressure and stress of their disbelief that we don't just walk away.

TheSilveryPussycat Fri 22-Feb-13 23:18:07

Either that or they think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. At some points during the last year, I felt my 'truth' was only known by me and those on this thread, even close friends could not really get it. Thank goodness FW only got worse, thus helping in the process of unravelling spaghetti head...

EternalRose Fri 22-Feb-13 23:38:29

Oh my, I am just reading a preview of the 'Why does he do that' from lundy bancroft, I will definitely be buying an online copy on Monday! Wow, let's just say from what I have read the little doubts I had about whether my relationship is abusive or not has just gone poof!

I think for me, the last few days I have been intensely reflecting on everything and I can see that for a long time I have chosen to ignore things, or my gut instinct For example, in December I joined the dating thread on the relationships board, not because I am dating myself, but because I enjoyed reading about women meeting new men and having intimacy. I even read an affairs forum last year, not because I wanted to have an affair but because I enjoyed reading about other people having intimacy with men and it felt like a different world to the one I am living. It's almost as if I am 'living my dream for intimacy through others' I have only just realised this...

And then there is the endless planning into the future as a single mum. I have never planned for him being in my future, always taken a 'single wage' into account when thinking about potential mortgage affordability etc. And then there is the sick, nagging feeling I got when people would ask me about what my partner is like and I would come out with the same old 'he is a great father' line.

The hardest part of all this is admitting that I have been unhappy for a very, very long time and that I don't think I have ever had intimacy with this man which is sad. Laugh we can do, yes. Cuddle, yes. But full on snogging has only occured 2/3 times in 5 years because I learnt very on I really didn't like it. So since then it's just been kiss on the lips, cheek etc. We can talk about certain topics, well kind of - only if I am agreeing with everything he says, but talking about the relationship is a BIG, NO NO!

And the reflection continues...

BreatheandFlyAway Fri 22-Feb-13 23:41:08

Yes Silver it's strange reaching the point where we applaud the fwittery as helpful grin I actually found myself thinking "thank you" many times recently as he couldn't but help slip back to customary fwittery after brief periods of supposed decency after his so called "wake up call" (which came about three years too late). Because it's never going to change, long term, as we painfully discover!

BreatheandFlyAway Fri 22-Feb-13 23:44:29

YY to kissing eternal. Before our split, my fw would occasionally try to kiss mouth to mouth while we DTD. Despite sleeping with him and sometimes enjoying it, kissing him deeply made me recoil. I guess it's the toothbrush test of the EA marriage!

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 00:03:56

well hello ladies... i'm just back from eve with another family, and my girlfriend was telling me about her sister and the 'awful man' FW that has moved in with her, she never liked him and neither did her husband, but the daughter has stayed there and watched him treat her dog so cruelly and is scared of him and the little boy (the sister's DS not the FW P) has disclosed to his aunt that he's scared and prayed to stay at theirs and not go home sad. Friend has begged her sister to leave him, sister can see nothing wrong (but she's not allowed to go anywhere to the family without him and their mother refuses to have anything to do with him, will not visit - so her sister now getting isolated too)... all these bells ringing for everyone! She doesn't seem to speak in front of him anymore, and does as she's told, will not hear anyone say anything against him. What it did help me with tho, which you've been discussing here this eve, is the getting across of how the slow insidious manipulations start to get you doubting yourself and believing it the victim thats at fault all the time. We chatted for ages about it, her sister and my situation. So I now have one other in RL that is really getting whats been going on. I've been bombarded with insulting nasty emails again. Can't believe how difficult they are to just dismiss without disaappearing back down that hole again. FUCK FUCK FUCK

Not there now, but why am I still fighting this!?!?!?!?! grrrrrrrr!!! Why even listen for a moment, cos its crazy making shit, when I read it back I realise it was him in a fucking stew again all night, phoned me, hung up, then spent the evening sending emails here and there until gone 11. Crazy crazy fuck he is. Why is he my poor DD's father. Where was I at when I thought, hey yeah, lets do this,!!! Well actualy I had left him b4 conceiving, but life catastrophe and shock of that. ... blah blah the rest is history as they say... and hadn't planned on the conception and then grimly seemed to stick with it [the relationship - loved the baby always, never a doubt].

so sad to hear of friend's distress knowing her sister is in this situation and cannot seem to do anything to help her realise the way he is isolating her and abusing her... and I hate that FW still has any impact on me atall Fing FW!!!

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 00:50:20

had a sudden pang of have we heard from Maggie ?

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 00:53:10

Hi all, just checking in. Lots of FWerty here, too much to explain..drained sad. Dmum and Dbro coming next week to help me get more stuff into storage and have solicitors appt too. Lots of in-law visits happening though sad so poker face firmly on to avoid FW having a fit. Post properly soon. Love and strength to all with everyones elses FWerty going on too x

PS - Fi Sorry to hear about your friends sister....another lady to invite to the commune. Hope she doesn't take as long as some of us have to come to terms with what is happening to her and try and get out. How many more out there...

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 00:53:58

Hahaha Fi!! Just x posted xxx thank you so much for thinking of me xx

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 00:55:54

hey! hi! your busy plans all sound good good good! Keep going lovely lady, you doing so so well! ((big hugs)) xx

BreatheandFlyAway Sat 23-Feb-13 00:56:47

Hi Leclerc, so sorry to hear about your friend's dsis. How horrible for her, for her sister and the little boy. And pretty traumatic for you to listen to, I imagine.

Also sorry to hear about fw's emails. Thank God you have the strength to see them for what they are and also to protect your dcs as much as possible.

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 00:58:01

Massive hugs back!!! (to all ladies) smile

BreatheandFlyAway Sat 23-Feb-13 00:59:26

Fi I got mixed up- am on phone and not very clever grin ha ha I morphed you and Leclerc!

BreatheandFlyAway Sat 23-Feb-13 01:02:54

Maggie hi! So glad to hear things are going forwards but sorry to hear ILs are looming around!

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 01:05:43

hi Fly ha ha! grin grin We have Fws to tell us rubbish! so not having the 'not v. clever' grin

Knowing what I/we know, finding it hard to even know what to say to her?! so mad!

late Friday night booty call? [childish sniggering]

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 01:08:50

Hi Fly grin hope you are ok and no more midnight visitors to your bedroom - ugghh. Yes I wish ILs would just piss off to put it politely! Going to try and get some kip now, FW awol as usual for a weekend night, in the last 48 hours he has only seen kids for about half an hour. He will then be playing his role of father of the fecking year when we have the next ILs visit - bastard!

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 01:14:26

Do you feel safe now fly from FW trying that again?

so predictable Maggie they know how to 'turn it on' dont' they, he won't know whats hit him when you make your escape, keep safe hun xx

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 03:23:30

hey all. re. experience of people in RL not understanding or believing. the shit thing is i told my mates and they all said either yes we know or we suspected. only one said i had no idea. and of course my mum who has been the one to consistently tell me to go back to him every time it has been on rocks.

made me feel both supported and when more of an idiot for being the last to know.

even members of his family have been either neutral or positive about my decision.
not that i mentioned the a word to them!

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 03:24:11

when even more

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 03:29:44

on a totally different note...i was out tonight...until 3! i even looked not half bad;-) and had a nice time.

weird about the snogging. this also my least kissing relationship. if i went to kiss him he would offer me his cheek more often than not. if he did kiss in bed it was either like a fifties film kiss or else poking his tongue into my mouth in a disturbing way. never thought about it before. maybe that is another bingo.

feel disloyal for saying it tho.

TisILeclerc Sat 23-Feb-13 08:38:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hissy Sat 23-Feb-13 09:16:29

My ex refused to kiss me, as punishment for having had previous boyfriends.

I'd never realised this was a common trait!

Hissy Sat 23-Feb-13 09:19:18

My lovely boyf is VERY kissy though! grin

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 10:13:09

it is like a syndrome. some of the common traits seem obvious, like shouting or moody. but where on earth does the kissing thing come from?!?

although from previous posts i seem to be the only one lucky enough to have one who did the word cyclical extremes thing - like no exercise or marathon running, either overheating smoking etc. or dieting giving up fags booze crisps cakes and anything else who could think of all at the same time.

any of yours completely useless at getting on with stuff? ex would fix something non essential very quickly like usually when we were trying to go out but has left hole in floor of his house for about 7 years now. funnily enough it is my fault of coursehmm

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 10:13:55

word cyclica weird cyclical

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 10:15:31

ex used to be great kisser of course...when we first met...

DoFuckOffDear Sat 23-Feb-13 11:02:09

The kissing thing must be another of those compulsory lessons at the fw charm school.
Fw is the same, lots of kissing at first with the stabby tongue thing, now he just kind of puts his mouth on mine but doesn't move his lips at all.
I got quite freaked by it the first time and actually bit him to get him off sad

EternalRose Sat 23-Feb-13 11:42:05

I'm glad I am not the only one that feels wierded out by the kissing. It would be way too spitty and overwhelmingly intense 'shudder'. No, just no.

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 12:19:36

yy the stabby tongue eeeeuuuwww <boak> too spitty too yuuurrr

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 13:05:17

Wow. Nothing guaranteed to make you feel even lower than to be invisible.

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 13:32:52

Alice ?

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 15:46:01

ARe you ok Alice?

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 15:50:29

No, not okay. But cannot bear to feel invisible here as well. Support a bit thin on the ground in my neck of the woods.

TisILeclerc Sat 23-Feb-13 16:04:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 16:15:22

I don't want to "shout" for help as I'm not getting physically beat up or financially abused. I'm not going to be killed. Just worn down daily by being shouted at and having to step in when he is shouting at the children. Not able to get down time at all and never able to leave the children with him because I can't trust him with them. Having to listen to him going off about everything under the sun, but being told that my negative attitude is going to ruin the day if I am stressed or upset. Knowing that I am going to be classed as the bad guy by H and his family as he has serious health concerns, and if I tell him to leave I'll be "kicking him when he's down." He'll lose his job(no transport, and quite honestly lately no initiative to keep going in his job), he'll stop going to counselling, and it'll be my fault (in their opinion).

He's over at SILs right now. The same woman that has been dreadfully unkind to me and my DC, and he says he doesn't want to be stuck in the middle. He says he is on my side regarding her, but still goes over to her house for family social events (even though I cannot go as it's always something that our children can't go to for various reasons).

I told him that his family treats me like I'm nobody, and he treats me like I'm nobody (when he is shouting at me and the DCs), and I cannot cope with it anymore.

So I'm not shouting... just slowly falling apart.

arthriticfingers Sat 23-Feb-13 16:25:38

Alice sad
Keep posting.
Sometimes it feels like we have said more than we have because we are so used to keeping it all in.
But everyone here knows what falling apart feels like.

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 16:31:08

Hugs Alice please don't feel unwanted on here, we are always here for you. Stay strong, even though it may not feel like it you are doing an amazing job of coping. Millions of other women would have crumbled by now under the circumstances. Be kind to yourself. I know its hard when no resbite from kids and have inlaws and other in RL not having a clue what's going on. Last september this is how I felt. I started dropping hints to them all over the months and I think now when I do leave they won't be surprised. As for the others-the much older generation, there is nothing I can do to prepare them for their perfect grandson suddenly being alone so I know I will be the baddy but it sometimes gets to a point where you and your kids are worth it more than these other RL people. You will get to that point. Know the trapped feeling you have right now, keep going, keep steps. Take care Alice and please do shout or just give us a reminder nudge on here smile

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 16:36:56

I was stupid. I had him out and let him back. He's out now, although just for the night. I want to tell him not to come back, but am terrified of the utter rain of shit that will then fall all around.

But I know I can't go on like this. Can't stop crying and just feel horrible. And feel like a complete lunatic because so many on here have it much much worse.

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 16:43:13

thanks for coming back and sharing all that.

Would so want to say that I get where you are coming from, as I know it can be difficult to carry the burden of everything and the huge emotions and then don't feel as if you don't have a voice here, where there is so much emotion coming out and at times postings get missed, when feeling desperate for some feedback.

I think its cool that you've said so! Really cool!

the biggest thing I wanted to say tho is that he is not your fault its a struggle to get past that sometimes but he is an adult, and him not being responsible doesn't make you responsible. He is responsible for his own health, and some 'families' reinforce the sexist so strongly that the male is to be looked after more by the female than the other way round. I can't believe the looks of scorn from other females when I hadn't conformed to expecations of what I 'should' do for mine (now Ex FW)!

but like Maggie says well, they probably don't have a clue whats going on really, and if they understood would maybe be moving him out for you! wink well lets hope anyway!

take care xx

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 16:47:59

and its impossible to compare. You are in utter pain, we've all experienced that pain and despair and emotional meltdowns.

The 'utter rain of shit' is not of your making, but it can feel impossible to stand up to. It doesn't need to be answered tho, just ignored, knowing that YOU know best hun... you do, you know that you can't go on living like this, you might not be able to fully put it into words yet, but that doesn't matter, all that matters is you cannot tolerate him a moment longer.

Ladies do leave for far far 'less' you know, just that personalities don't match or the relationship is not fulfililng for them, etc.. .not that they've had to suffer years of abuse! Feel strong lovely, we here validate the way that you are feeling and support you completely in your struggles to understand and act. take care xxx

YY Fi. My SILs are no longer speaking to me as they just see me as having abandoned their poor brother. When I left last year (went back) one of them excused him shoving me onto the kitchen floor by saying although I was a great mum, I could do a much better job of keeping the house clean, maybe that was what had stressed him out so much.
I was obviously still too under this control then as didn't think "Balls to that!" It infuriates me now just thinking about it.

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 17:04:57

shock shock shock Match and very sad that our sisters look on their fellow sisters in this way.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 17:08:54

His oldest DS (and DIL & DGS) is visiting in the area this weekend, and that's one of the main reasons he went to the family do. I am worried that if I tell him not to come back while his DS (my DSS) is here, then he will be embarrassed by it and it will create a huge backlash from wounded pride IYSWIM.

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 17:13:56

hey Aliceyou are not stupid for letting him back, just human.
hard not to feel judged by the in laws but they are probably from the same cloth as him.
sounds in fact like you got one big bargain bucket of fuckwitterywink so feck the lot of them and what they think.

hard not feel guilty about him being ill but and it is a big but what has he actually done to earn your compassion or your sympathy or your love and devotion? occasionally not being nasty and being ill are not enough.

and don't worry that others might have a harder time. other people's comparative harder time does not make your situation more bearable for you.

hope this thread does a little tho!
i know it has certainly helped me thanks all and my ex was gone before i arrived here and really was half arsed at being an abuser... much the same as husband approach to a lot of other things wink

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 17:15:28

husband his.

dam phone is obsessed by the words husband pneumonia and ostensibly.

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 17:20:15

how might he take it if you said i'm not going to ask you to leave while ds is here but once he has gone i would like you to go too...

or else say nothing until they have gone and then ask him to leave...

if you feel you can hang on...and/or that he will go when asked if he gets his foot back in the door.

really do feel for you having to put up with disappointment of him only managing one day of not shouting and the prospect of more to come.sad

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 17:25:48

his mum is lovely, but doesn't make him take responsibility. She just doesn't want to believe bad of him (of anyone, really), although she has told him on a few occasions that his behaviour was not appropriate. I miss his dad - he's passed away quite some time now, but he would have really put his foot down regarding H's behaviour. He would never have tolerated it. Ever.

My armchair psychology tells me that since H's depression and this behaviour began shortly after his father passed away, I suspect he feels his life went out of control and he asserted control in the only way he could - over me and the children. I gave him some leeway because of the recent death, instead of planting my feet immediately and telling him stop or push off, and it became a long term habit of abuse.

Not that I care much at the moment if that's correct or not. I just am tired of it. I want to be ME again. Not this weepy exhausted stressed stranger that is worried that some little thing is going to upset H and he's going to start shouting again, walking on eggshells all day and preparing to step in if he starts on at the DCs. Just want to be me - happy, confident, comfortable in my own decisions, and not feeling like every day I have something hanging over my head.

Hissy Sat 23-Feb-13 17:26:30

Alice, you can be free again, one day. Don't ever give up hope.

Make a plan love. You can do this.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 17:27:02

minkembra sorry, but thank you - that actually made me smile - the phone being obsessed with those words - husband, pneumonia, and ostensibly. What an awkward combination of words.

TisILeclerc Sat 23-Feb-13 17:38:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 17:47:54

He's actually at MIL's tonight, as is DSS and his family. So H is not here. So it wouldn't be like I told him "in front" of DSS. I'd send him a text or ring him. So semi-private I suppose. Whether or not he shared that info with DSS is up to him, although he classically tends to rant when angry.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 17:58:13

The things that keep running through my mind tonight...

"I'm not abusive - I don't hit you!"

"I made an extra effort to be nice to you today."

"Don't I get brownie points for not shouting about it?"

"You just don't get it do you? You don't care that I have depression."

"I'm only going to counselling because you pushed me to do it."

"It's your fault, you just keep pushing me/nagging me."

"Are you going to bring that up again? So I hit him, so what?" (DC)

"I'm not going anywhere. How dare you threaten to bring police in to get me out?"

God, I'm such an idiot.

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 18:04:18

sorry Alice if i shoved all your in laws in one bucket. your SIL does sound a bit grim though! so i just assumed. sorry. should not assume.

i guess what i was cack handedly saying is if there were justice then the blame would be laid fairly where it belongs not on you.

but i cannot actually say the word abuse to any of my exes family (some of whom i have just realised emotionally abuse my ex- hence think was projecting buckets wink) because i would feel appalling guilty and because i don't have to justify myself and because it would hurt them. they know he is difficult that is enough.

so blame responsibility shifting is easier said than done.sad
if you do decide he should go, you will know though (where the real responsibility lies).

minkembra Sat 23-Feb-13 18:05:52

Alice don't beat yourself up. he is the FW. sad

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 18:07:18

minkembra seriously, no need to apologise. I do wish MIL would be firm with SIL and tell her to behave like an adult. But I understand that it's just not in her character to believe bad of anyone, plus she's having some memory problems (elderly) and I suspect she doesn't remember some of it. So I try not to get bitter or frustrated over it - she can't help it. She's always kind to me (MIL).

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 18:12:37

I think I'm just trying to build up the courage to tell him tomorrow to stay there. I know it will be ugly. I know that at this point even if I said it was for a few days, it will be the end of our marriage. It's at the breaking point, as am I. And at this point, he's told me so many times that he will change that I just don't believe him anymore.

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 18:16:18

Have you spoke to a solicitor at all Alice? Also when is his DS going back home? From experience I have left my FW many a time mostly in the heat of the moment when I have felt so low. It have never worked, I always took him back/returned home. This time I am taking the time to carefully plan and I feel different-stronger. This may be the wrong advice, but I would say to use this evening to give yourself strength, map out an escape plan, make plans to see professionals that can back up your decision, sort out any court orders, housing arrangements etc. Knowledge is power and being fully prepared. Then make him leave when he won't have an audience to preach /cry to like he will tonight. He will probably turn it around and make them all feel sorry for him. Play him at his own game Alice

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 18:25:49

Maggie It's a thought that has merits. I haven't spoken to a solicitor. He's been off work sick for months - I don't ever have time to GET to a solicitor. The only issue I really have any concern about is the children - the rest will sort out. Because of his behaviour, I don't want them to see him unsupervised and I don't want him to be able to pick them up from school, etc. I don't think he would pick them up or push for unsupervised visits as he cannot handle them for 10 minutes while I'm in the shower, so he certainly could not deal with them for a few hours or more. He goes out of his way to avoid being the one in charge of them.

But I'm worried that if I keep letting him back in, he'll feel that he can do anything and I'll sit back and take it.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 18:26:43

His DS is driving home tomorrow. they were only up for the weekend.

foolonthehill Sat 23-Feb-13 20:10:06

And at this point, he's told me so many times that he will change that I just don't believe him anymore. Alice he has shown you that either he cannot or that he will not change. Heartbreaking as it is, there is a point where all the love in the world is not enough.

You deserve to be loved, cherished, respected. You deserve to be believed, talked to as an equal. Nice should be normal, brownie points and gold stars are awarded for going above and beyond the call of duty, let alone self giving love, he expects them for mere civility.

There is no illness, no past experience that makes it ok to treat the people closest to us badly. There is no excuse that can cover a life of pushing someone down and cutting the ground from under them so that they are falling apart.

You deserve the space and the peace to be yourself.

So do your DC.

Believe that he cannot or will not change, arrange your life to take that as truth. then you will gradually heal and your life will be yours.

It is not your fault, it is his. If love, self-sacrifice and care could have made it work then yours would have...but you are only one person and the other cannot be changed by you.

move forward to something better

TisILeclerc Sat 23-Feb-13 20:15:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 20:26:30

Leclerc oh no! if it helps at all, when this happens, I always put down either large fleece or towels on the sofa/chairs, so that any further vomiting doesn't get all over the furniture. Limits the damage somewhat. I have a huge stack of old towels used for this type of thing. DCs tend to pass stomach bugs back and forth a lot.

foolonthehill thank you. You are right, of course. But it's weirdly enough a hard thing to get my head around sometimes. I literally feel like a shadow right now. Barely here. Odd.

TisILeclerc Sat 23-Feb-13 20:31:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 20:36:11

DS3 always seems to burp just a minute or so before he vomits. It's like an odd little "early warning signal." grin

foolonthehill Sat 23-Feb-13 20:41:46

I think it's because unlike the famous advert...we don;t think we are worth it....and we do blame ourselves for what they do to us....exactly why I couldn't tell you

foolonthehill Sat 23-Feb-13 20:42:21

sad second least favourite thing to clean up...hope it was a one-off.

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 20:46:27

after being on red alert for hospital still here, 3 days later wasted with the wrecked nights of sleep, as dd STILL ill.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 20:54:47

hope your dd is better soon. I'm sorry, I didn't realise, as I've really struggled retaining any info lately. brain fog

EternalRose Sat 23-Feb-13 20:58:34

Hmmm, please tell me if this is normal? I feel like I don't love him anymore but I almost feel like I should for the sake of our daughter. confused

Things I write may be a little jumbled, bear with me.

I have felt like I am slowly but surely emotionally detaching, and I have found it a lot easier than I thought I would. I told him today that I miss intimacy so, so much, and yet again he didn't say anything about that. To be honest, he seems very apathetic about the whole thing which does bother me somewhat.It seems to me that if I stayed he would be fine, and if I left he would be fine. The more I see that he is not fighting for me makes me realise that he doesn't love me. sad. He just said that I have made it abunduntly clear how I feel about him (which I have) so what more is there to say. He said to me that most people he has met in his life don't want to be around him and have said 'they find him difficult to read' well after 5 years in this relationship, I still cant work him out!

So today we were able to laugh about things and have a joke. But this living together rubbish, when you are mentally checking out is awful. I cant help but feel like I have failed my daughter, why couldn't I picked someone more suitable to have a child with.

I then started to think about my personal development and realise I have a lot of work to do before I can date. I don't think I have ever had a sense of self, and I need to establish that before I meet anyone else. I am desperate for some bedroom action but I just think casual sex with someone would mess my head up and make me feel used.

I am a little worried about the nights as a single mum. I am very, very reflective and I can see myself getting myself all worked up and there will be no one there to hold my hand.

TisILeclerc Sat 23-Feb-13 20:59:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 21:20:27

EternalRose I get what you mean about emotionally checking out. I find myself doing that - I guess just to protect myself.

CharlotteCollinsislost Sat 23-Feb-13 21:24:17

Oh, Fi, your poor dd! And poor you!! And Leclerc, hope the night's better than you expect.

Rose, we're laughing about it and making it into a joke, too. Because (esp with the dcs about) what else can you do? He keeps saying he wants to talk - well, any time we try that I feel myself sinking back into confusion.

Alice, that list of things he has said to you - me too to 2, 3 and 4, and I'm now worried that if I use the word abusive, he will either say what yours did or, more likely given his recent strategies, say that I'm the one being abusive. He'll make out that calling him abusive is VA, like I said he called me lazy and selfish. And I won't be able to sort out the difference in my mind.

I was wondering whether to be straight with him tonight. Fortunately he has gone out for a couple of hours, so that lets me off the hook for now, I think. I'm in that awful stage where I'm wondering if he could change. He's admitting bad behaviours and attitudes, excusing others eloquently, twisting things with panache.

TheSilveryPussycat Sat 23-Feb-13 21:29:19

Alice I think mine was quite deeply affected by the death of his dad - as we all are/would be - and that he suffered from some sort of depression - it just wasn't natural, the way he was addicted to playing Civilisation for years (not even different comp games, FFS).

There have been a couple of times he suggested I see the GP when I was depressed, and I did, and it helped (though hardly getting to the actual root of the problem confused). I also suggested to him a couple of times that he might be depressed, but he totally denied it.

OK then, if you weren't depressed, Ex, then the only alternative is that you were a lazy apathetic cocklodger. So in the end, I treated him as such and divorced him...

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 21:35:00

definitely felt I'd let mine down eternal by hooking up with a FW but not letting them down by leaving! No! Unbearable for them to be in such awful relationship and seeing unhappy parents, but abusive too.. no no.. felt I was doing the right thing.. but was terribly disappointed and felt compeltely rubbish about the fact that this is her father - bluurggh. He proves himself again and again to be a complete shit.. the latest is hearing talk of so many broken promises and the teasing and grief over tiny slights, but pleased its not int he house anymore.

Ifyou are worried about your coping alone, get other support services in place before the final flick. Like WA, who will validate why you are feeling like this, as does coming here. best to go tho, no good staying in it. when its destructive. take care xx

MaggieOnTheSofa Sat 23-Feb-13 21:40:23

Sorry Alice, was just trying to help re solicitors advice. I know how hard it is to try and see them. In the last 6 months I've only been able to see mine once. I've been trying to get a follow up appt but have had to cancel it about 5 times because of FW/kids. Maybe you might be able to have an appointment over the phone if you explain your situation? Most of my contact with mine has been via my secret email address often in the early hours of the morning so she knows when I cancel appts its because of FW. They will be able to get stuff in place for you regarding restrictions for the childcare concerns with him. Good luck.

Sorry to hear about poorly kiddies, get well soon all x

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 21:41:26

yep DD very fed up, and loads of tears at having to take awful meds that make her mental health go all weird and upsets her desperately.. after the first night I called another doc to plead with him that she could stop them as was so much better than day before (was racing heart and breathless and temp of over 102 - altho lent thermometer to new mum over the road so only had forehead one left)... I think she has flu, had to stop the regular analgesia as not supposed to do for more than 3 days, and this started wed, so today is day 4. Just praying that I don't get it... just lost another study deadline sad - really possibly gonna throw in towel. bit sick of eveyting being such a bloddy struggle (more than anything trying to get my head straight and still streams of abusive emails from FW - stupid FW)

TheSilveryPussycat Sat 23-Feb-13 21:50:18

Alice, maggie is quite right, knowledge is power, I spent many evenings looking at the Resolution site, reading up about divorce, before beginning to execute my plan. Also did tiny things, like sorting bookcases, his to the left, mine to the right, which he was unlikely to notice anyway, and was a step towards the Final Division...

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 22:05:39

silvery thanks. food for thought.

Lahti Sat 23-Feb-13 22:33:43

Hello all, just read through quickly leclerc, Fi hope your DCs are better soon. Alice I hope you can contact the solicitor soon.

Well I feel like a horrible person now. H has booked himself in for counselling onhis own on Monday. He didn't want to go but I said I would leave if he didn't get help but now I am worried that they will think it is me that is the problem. Obviously I did have my part to play in that I never stood up for myself and allowed him to be so nasty but what if I was a bigger problem than that? So confusing.

Today I went shopping on my own which was strange but nice, and when I came home H had bought me flowers! Then I scratched the car and he was fine about it, all he said was to park further away from the wall next time.
He has moved out of the bedroom but refused to move to his mums to give me space as he thinks it will upset out DD but now he is being normal and dare I say it pleasant that I feel mean for wanting him to go. I just wish I knew if the niceness will last more than a few weeks. 5 years ago when I told him I wanted to leave he was nice for a year and then it all started again. I just don't want to let my guard down and be in this same position again in another 5 years.

TheSilveryPussycat Sat 23-Feb-13 22:39:14

Crikey, he managed a year? Did something trigger his relapse, or did things just slide imperceptibly?

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 23-Feb-13 22:55:46

A year? H didn't last 24 hours. sigh

Off to clean up my computer history now. Goodnight all, and thank you. Much to think about.

Lahti Sat 23-Feb-13 22:57:56

To be honest it may have been less but I remember thinking "that wasn't very nice" at the year point. He got steadily worse during my pregnancy (we conceived at the year point) and then I can see that he ramped it up when DD was born but I was too sleep deprived to think about it.

TheSilveryPussycat Sat 23-Feb-13 23:03:46

And I bet he made sure you were sleep deprived...

Lahti Sat 23-Feb-13 23:17:35

silver. yep. He used to say he would take DD in the morning so that I could sleep. I remember having been up every hour and finally giving up st 4am that I was desperate to hand DD over at 8am. H got annoyed that I wanted to go back to bed before he had finished his cornflakes. He let me have an hour sleep.
Looking back the control over using the car, not buying my own stuff without running it past him first etc etc never stopped, I just didn't realise that it wasn't normal.

FairyFi Sat 23-Feb-13 23:28:15

you doing ok Pony ?