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to not want bil to hold DD tightly and not let go?

(121 Posts)
littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:17:12

I don't know how you would describe it, apart from to say every time he sees DD, he gets hold of her, puts his arms around her and holds onto her tightly, usually whilst saying something like 'You can't get out of this can you DD! Go on, try to get out of this then!'

I cannot leave them in the same room together, because it seems as soon as they are alone, it starts again. I'm sure DD can't be enjoying it??

I have asked him to put her down, said she doesn't like it, even physically taken DD from him, and tbh, there have been a few times when he has held on even as I am pulling DD out of his vice like grip.

Sometimes, he doesn't take any notice and just says 'She likes it.'

Perhaps it is the grimace on his face as he is holding her that makes me very uncomfortable about the whole thing.

I have tried speaking to my family about it, and don't go round bil's much anyway, but family's response is to say it doesn't happen when they are there, (oh yes it does) and then to be very sarcastic about it and say 'Well don't go to bil's house then?' meaning I would hardly ever see my sister.

I try to go when bil is at work, but since he works very irregular hours, and doesn't have regular days/hours he works, it is difficult to keep track.

FeckOffCup Fri 08-Feb-13 23:29:33

YANBU, I would find that weird behaviour from BIL. How old is DD, is she able to tell him herself, firmly, "no Uncle X please don't do that, I don't like it"

SirBoobAlot Fri 08-Feb-13 23:30:53

What does your sister say about this?

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:32:28

DD is 4, and will occasionally say 'Get off, let me go.' but bil takes no notice, and waits until an adult intervenes, which happens every time, then looks all hurt and subdued!!
He doesn't do it to his own DC either, although this may be because they are older, although I don't recall seeing him do it to them.

FeckOffCup Fri 08-Feb-13 23:34:44

Maybe you should train your DD to "accidentally" elbow him in a sensitive place while struggling to get away, maybe that would make him think twice about doing it again wink.

Uggghhhhhh - your post made me shudder littlemiss that is just horrible sad
I used to hate it when people would try and get/make my little's give them a kiss or hug when they were smaller, I'm not sure why, it just used to make me cringe and want to shout "they don't KNOW you, leave them alone"
If I was you, I just wouldn't take DD round there again until she was big enough to kick him in the balls/shins and even call first and ask if he was in/expected home before I went.
I would also tell people why, and if they said "he doesn't do it when we're there" I would just say "well you weren't looking on X,Y,Z occasion" and give examples.
If he said "she likes it" I would simpley say "no she doesn't" and if he kept hold, I'd kick his shins myself. If he complained I'd either deny it or apologise for "slipping" and if he tried to insist it was deliberate, I'd laugh and say "don't be silly" - it's not like he could prove it.

LemonBreeland Fri 08-Feb-13 23:36:18

He sounds like a complete arse. Is there any chance of just talking to him and asking him not to do it again as it upsets you and your dd, or would he not listen.

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:36:27

Sister is usually in kitchen while bil is in lounge watching shit on tv but the playroom is at the other side of the lounge, hence DD getting caught by bil.

Sister has tried to play it down before while asking him to put DD down, and he does put her down then, but it just continues on and on every bloody time we go over there and he's there, it has got to the point where sis gets quite cross with bil now and says 'LMS's DD is not a bloody doll, FGS put her down will you!!'

Bil then puts DD down and does his hurt face expression. Until he forgets thinks he can get away with it again or the next visit, possibly 3 months away, then it happens all over again. sad

dontcallmehon Fri 08-Feb-13 23:37:28

I wouldn't let him if there is any possible way you can avoid him. Can you invite your sister to you? Be very forceful. Do not touch my dd BIL! She doesn't like it! Keep doing it. Subtlety isn't working.

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:38:40

Bil doesn't really listen to me. He will only do as I am asking reluctantly if he thinks sister is within earshot.

It's not even as if he is trying to hug/kiss DD, because he grabs her in such a way that DD is facing outwards away from him IYSWIM.

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:40:29

I rarely see sister, and haven't seen her since xmas, but one of her DC's is having a birthday tea this weekend for the family to attend, so I am expected to be there. That is the only time I go with DD now, when it would be rude to decline, otherwise I sometimes see sister if I don't have DD with me.

dontcallmehon Fri 08-Feb-13 23:42:06

Physically remove her. Make a scene, so embarrassing him. It won't be easy.

You could try just saying loudly "do you have an interest in my four year old daughter BiL? We'll have to call you Jimmy Saville if you don't behave" and glare at him.
That should shame him into letting her go surely?
(And yes, I know, appalling taste, but it might shock him into thinking about just what he's doing when he restrains a child against his body and refuses to let her go - ewwww I feel sick just typing that. Is he actually a dirty bastard pervert old man OP, or just deluded/stupid and doesn't think?)

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:42:36

Also, I cannot talk to my sister about this, because I know she would defend bil and get very angry defensive with me.
I am the walkover in the family so it is easier to put the blame on me, and my sister, mother and bil would blame me for making a scene and ruining X's party over a bit of fun. hmm

Wolfiefan Fri 08-Feb-13 23:43:07

Control?
Weird bullying behaviour. Are their kids boys or girls? I'm afraid I wouldn't let him anywhere near my DD. I'm teaching her it is her body and she chooses what happens. (This often results in me being told not to kiss her! Her body her choice!)

LastDadStanding Fri 08-Feb-13 23:43:48

Making assumptions here, but can Dad help out?

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:45:15

I think he is more of the stupid, doesn't think variety. It is also imo very controlling, the look on his face is as if he is wrestling a dangerous animal, like a grimace, real anger there imo.

He is not respected at home by sister, his own DC laugh at him, so I think he feels like DD is an easy target to exact his frustration at being powerless in the house if that makes sense.

littlemisssarcastic Fri 08-Feb-13 23:46:10

Dad? As in DD's dad? Or my Dad?

Neither are on the scene.

He's behaving inappropriately towards your dd; any action taken on your part to stop this is justified. He knows he's being inappropriate because of the 'hurt face' thing that you've described, and the fact that he's continuing doing this despite having been repeatedly told not to by you, your dd and his wife isn't good.

It may be worth considering what Pombear said above - the shaming thing works very well with some people, but you might also consider not taking your dd along the next time you visit (a babysitter perhaps), and stating that he can't be trusted to behave like an adult around her, and is the reason why she isn't there.

She needs to be protected from this idiotic douchecanoe.

LilQueenie Fri 08-Feb-13 23:56:19

If he feels your DD is an easy target then he is a bully. Tell him straight. If it were me I would tell him he was a bully and throw in the fact he is acting like a peado because from what i can see he is.

LastDadStanding Fri 08-Feb-13 23:56:23

If he's the stupid, doesn't think variety then stressing the 'odd thing for grown man to do' angle may just make him think twice.

If you can set it up so a few good (female) friends all all there to comment loudly that it's odd behaviour for a grown man then it may sting him in to stopping. No man likes to look like a possible child molester in front of the ladies.

WinkySlink Fri 08-Feb-13 23:57:06

I think its horrible, and i know how it feels, but i think a lot of people really dont have a clue how unpleasant it is. I would just be straight and say " i dont want DD to grow up thinking its okay for men to restrain her when she has told them to let go". Be poker faced and really cats bum mouth about it too, so he sees how disdainful it is from women's perspective.

ClippedPhoenix Sat 09-Feb-13 00:10:26

Whether he is stupid or controlling he's doing wrong. I remember being held down a tickled, head locked, you name it.

He's a total arse whatever he is. I'd tell him in no uncertain terms to get the hell off her, if he then chooses to still be that sort of arse he wouldn't be allowed near my child whether it be male or female.

HerrenaHarridan Sat 09-Feb-13 00:20:15

Last dad standing is right. Maybe someone else needs to be seen to agree with you. After all you have raised it time and again.
Can you take a ( female) friend and brief her to be very shocked and disgusted very vocally?

Greensleeves Sat 09-Feb-13 00:31:07

I agree with LastDadStanding, he needs to realise how very inappropriate this looks to other people. You've tried treating him like a normal human being and appealing to his sense of common decency - he knows she doesn't like it and he doesn't care, the stupid fuckunt. Now you do whatever it takes to get him to leave her the hell alone.

mrsbunnylove Sat 09-Feb-13 07:05:01

you have to stop this. he's getting something out of it, no matter what it is.

the first thing i would do it stop taking dd round there to be manhandled. just stop.

when someone asks why, tell them.

and always, always be aware of this man and extra cautious with your daughter - teach her to be wary of him too.

It sounds like he enjoys demonstrating that he is stronger than a little girl which is pathetic. I think you have to risk upset in the family over this OP. You said you were the pushover in the family, let the fact that your daughter is basically being bullied spur you on to defend her feelings at the expense of others. Keep standing up to him and also ask your sister to be more supportive. Plenty of good comebacks suggested here and ultimately he needs to be told that if he can't control himself you cannot trust him to be around your daughter.

TidyDancer Sat 09-Feb-13 07:18:13

I think you need to helicopter her if she is in the same room as him. And physically wrench her away if he goes near her. Shaming might work if there is enough of an audience, but this moron does sound a tad Teflon, in so much that nothing that's been said thus far has actually stuck.

Regardless of his motivations (and I'm not immediately and specifically screaming paedophile) you have old him this is not on, DD has expressed she doesn't like it, and yet he continues. That alone makes him a tool.

She is at an age where this kind of thing can leave a lasting impression so it's the time to act. Taking a friend with you to back you up is a good idea.

Svrider Sat 09-Feb-13 07:23:59

Yanbu to not like this behaviour
Yavvvu to allow this to continue op

Morloth Sat 09-Feb-13 07:38:10

Every time you let this happen you are teaching her that it is OK for go someone to grab her/put their hands on her, and she shouldn't make a fuss.

STOP letting it happen. If that means not seeing your sister, then that is a shame but it is a risk you take when you marry a prick.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 09-Feb-13 07:49:17

Yanbu at all

Firstly something is wrong with him ignoring your dd and you. You feeling uncomfortable with it is somethng you should not ignore

Secondly it is so important that children are listened to if they do not want to be held, tickled, hugged then that is their right. Tell him this is what you are teaching your dd to protect herself. I teach ds that if he does not want to be hugged etc he is to say no please do not do that. Sadly he sounds like he would ignore you so I think taking her physically away and telling him when others are around what you are teaching your dd and for him to respect that as it is important for her safety and tell your sister too this is what is are teaching our dd and everyone needs to respect that

they may think you are being a tad over sensitive but so what. I have to tell my mum this. If ds gets upset she will hug him and not let him go when is struggling to come to me but I remind her that if he does not want to be held be her that is his choice

imogengladhart Sat 09-Feb-13 07:49:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Matildaduck Sat 09-Feb-13 07:49:40

You need to stop it now...massive fuss if he does it and everytime after.

Forget causing a fuss ..spell it out clearly. Do not do that, do not touch her, this is innappropriate behaviour. Explain to your sister he is not to do it ever again.

Stand up for her, as you would for yourself if he did it to you.

TheFallenNinja Sat 09-Feb-13 07:50:36

Im the walkover in the family. shock

I think you need to keep reading this over to yourself until you realise that you can no longer be this.

Get control, put some noses out of joint, blaze a trail, raise hell.

Do not court opinion if you think that something isn't right for your daughter. If YOU don't think it right, it isn't. Next time your round there tell him straight, no more, if he argues then coats on, go home.

You are the defender of your daughter, so suit up and get into battle for her. Whether or not this fella is a peado or a tool. It doesn't matter.

MrsMushroom Sat 09-Feb-13 07:52:36

You need to wait until you next go there...as soon as he walks in you say DO NOT pick DD up. If you pick her up today, I will punch your lights out.

And then smile. If he does then you have all the rights in the world to remove DD from the room and tell hgim you are calling the police as he's assualted your DD.

I feel SO angry on your and DDs behalf. What a TWAT. Keep away from him. Do you have a DH?

shemademedoit Sat 09-Feb-13 07:56:50

Er....can't you get teacher her to bite him? (half serious)

PurplePidjin Sat 09-Feb-13 07:58:29

Can you laugh at him too? Haha, bil, don't be so pathetic she's clearly not enjoying it, don't you know anything about children?

Or the Jimmy Saville bomb

shemademedoit Sat 09-Feb-13 08:01:00

Oops. Can't you get her/ can't you teach her. (I've for the flu sad )

bbface Sat 09-Feb-13 08:04:45

This Is all very very odd.

That your family would see you as making a dramatic scene over this, your own mother and sister. Is there a back history? I just can't imagine anyone dismissing me when it came to my child.

The pseudo psychological reason why you think your bil does it.

You clearly dislike the man, the way you write of him just watching 'shit' on tv, the fact that he has a pathetic expression on his face after being told to putnyourndaughter down. The language and tone of your post indicates you really do not get on with this man.

And of course the very fact that your bil does this.

You are a mother. You are worried. A big part of a there's job description is defending her children and representing them when they are too young to articulate themselves. Neither you nor your daughter are happy with this situation. You just, you absolutely must, focus on this single fact.

Before you get there, say to your daughter that you are not going to let bil pick her u and squeeze her as that can't be fun. you do not need to go into anybfurther detail.
When you walk into the room, hold your daughter's hands, look at your bil and say 'I have promised Dd that she is not going to be picked up and squeezed. So gentle hugs only please'.
If he dares disrespect this. Gather your dd and politely excuse yourself from the house. Mono screaming, shouting, but leave.

DoctorAnge Sat 09-Feb-13 08:04:57

What an utter prick.

Keep her away from him.

bbface Sat 09-Feb-13 08:05:57

I meant 'no shouting or screaming'

ChristmasJubilee Sat 09-Feb-13 08:08:12

Don't go to the party. Drop of the present when he is not around. Tell your family why you can't go. Tell them dd does not like it and gets upset about it and as her mother you have to protect her. If they try to tell you it's just a bit of fun tell them that it is fun for bil but not for dd. Let them know you can't visit whilst this continues.

Don"t ever leave dd in the position where she might be alone with this man and teach her to be very wary of him

mummytime Sat 09-Feb-13 08:11:01

I wouldn't allow even gentle hugs to be honest.

The key thing to me is he is ignoring her NO, and her boundaries.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 08:21:07

Be strong OP. you know this is nt right but the way your family respond makes it scary to challenge it.

Some of us, sadly, have to choose between our birth family and our children when family do not respect our reasnable requests. It is time to put your child first.

I would try one last time, make a massive fucking scene and say 'if you ever do that again I will never let you in the same room as my daughter. I have asked nicely, now I am asking not nicely'. And you mean it. Any shit from your family you say 'he is the problem. Discuss this with him.'

Sorry you are going through this but be strong and show your daughter how to say no.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 08:21:09

I agree with bbface

I think the idea of dealing with this the moment you arrive is a good one. I also like the fact that the fact that it is unacceptable is said in front of him and your DD, so DD understands that you are not ok with it. It also places him in the position of then have go opens ignore the clear statement that he does not like it which should (even for a man with no boundaries) be harder to do.
She needs to hear you say that to him. He needs to be embaressed by having her see his behaviour described as unacceptable.

I guess I would probably be more forceful though.

"BIL. DD does not like the game where you grab her and squeeze her. She really doesn't. I promised her I would make sure you wouldn't do it anymore but of course you won't - will you. Because that would be incredibly nasty when you know she doesn't like it. So don't worry DD"

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 08:23:36

Yes, I think the advice to ask for it not t happen as soon as you arrive is good.

Then go nuclear if it does.

MarshaBrady Sat 09-Feb-13 08:26:19

Yes your dd needs to hear you tell him that it is not right. She and you will not put up with it. Be straight and clear and think about the positive effect that will have on your dd. Sod him, idiot.

LadyKinbote Sat 09-Feb-13 08:31:58

This is probably a silly question at this stage in the conversation but are you certain she doesn't like it? I only ask because DD does this kind of play with DGPs and loves it!
If you're sure she doesn't like it she's not too young to learn that her body is her own and other people mustn't cuddle / kiss / tickle her if she doesn't want them to. And that if they do she is to say "NO" in a loud, clear voice. You can then explain to the family as a whole that this is what you've taught her.

financialwizard Sat 09-Feb-13 08:35:47

Agree with mummytime

I would grab dd and walk in those circumstances.

FooffyShmoo Sat 09-Feb-13 08:35:57

This utterly infuriates me. I agree with what Pagwatch says. However if this continues further I would be tempted to get very close to his ear and through gritted teeth say " keep your fucking hands off my child or I WILL tear your balls off you fucking inadequate". Then stand up, smile and walk my child away.

Possibly not helpful or wise but he needs a shock.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 08:37:31

I think her dd saying "get off. Let me go" probably should inform the OPs view on that.
Unless it is accompanied by giggles and then cries of 'do it again', I would assume she doesn't.

FooffyShmoo Sat 09-Feb-13 08:38:11

Sorry probably not remotely helpful but this sort of adult power play over little ones gets my blood boiling.

diddl Sat 09-Feb-13 08:49:07

Can´t help thinking if she walks in & announces "don´t do it as daughter doesn´t like it"-he´ll turn it onto your daughter & say "of course she does, don´t you Little´sdaughter ?" & do it anyway.

I´d be tempted not to go tbh.

BangOn Sat 09-Feb-13 08:56:17

God, I'd probably be threatening to call the police. Screw trying to normalise/ rationalise his behaviour for the sake of happy families.

Svrider Sat 09-Feb-13 09:04:42

So everyone else has said it better than me
But reading thru the posts again, I think YOU need to be clear on one thing OP
Your DD is not in a position to stop this
It's up to you
Don't let your little girl down

giraffesCantEatNHSPotatoes Sat 09-Feb-13 09:05:22

what a wanker

WorriedMary Sat 09-Feb-13 09:16:31

I have two boys and Dfather and DFIL often partake in rough and tumble play with them - i.e. piling on top, lifting them up, rolling round on floor, pinning them in close and seeing if they can wriggle free and my kids love it! It's a bit like watching lion cubs play. They also let them win as well so it's not about adult power over children.
But if there was any hint of distress they'd just back off completely. DS1 didn't like it at first so my Dad backed if and didn't dream of upsetting him as he had respect for him.

Your situation sounds completely different and I'd have to shout at him to leave her alone! What a Twat!

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 09:27:06

Thanks for all of your responses. I have always felt unbelievably angry when I see him doing it. I have tried to be 'nice' about it, whilst asking him to let DD go, but obviously that hasn't worked.
The reason I don't like bil is because he has overstepped the boundaries with both of my DC and whenever I have tried to pull him up on it, the family have closed ranks and made me out to be making a big deal out of his behaviour.
Bil is spoken to, but it's as if the family think I am over reacting.
When push comes to shove, family always choose to side with Bil.
My family do prefer to sweep things under the proverbial carpet. If i don't agree, they use the 'grind LMS down and keep telling me how I am making a big deal out of things,how i am upsetting sister' and that can go on for months.
The other thing they do is constantly ignore decisions I have made, and therefore I have to continuously reinforce my feelings over and over, and that goes on for as long as I stand firm, months and months of uncomfortableness for me, but you are right, I cannot let DD down anymore.
Am on phone, but will shortly post with an example so what I have just said becomes clearer, because I fear I have rambled on a bit.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 09:36:43

Your family are treating you very badly and that kind of language & ganging up sounds dysfunctional.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 09:53:33

The way my family work is like this.
Bil was nasty to DS years ago. I was speechless at the time. I couldn't quite believe what he'd done.
DS was preschool at that time.
I told Bil to get out of my house, then I told my mother and sister what had happened and how i didn't want Bil in my house ever again.
My sister told me in very detached clipped tones that if I cut off her husband, I was effectively cutting her whole family off and i was no sister of hers.
I didn't want to back down, so I said if that's how she felt, then that was her choice. She left.
Then my mother began ringing me and turning up at my door at all hours telling me i was breaking her heart/making her ill by falling out with sister.
I told my mother what had happened and she just kept saying 'how long are you going to continue this for? You're not always right LMS. I can't bear you and sister to fall out. It won't happen again.' and on and on.
Then i went to my mothers one day and Bil was sitting there and everyone was behaving as if nothing had happened, all laughing and joking. Mother had already put meat in the oven and everyone was happy so i stayed for dinner, then left hoping it was a one off. Of course it wasn't. It seemed everyone had forgotten how I felt and that meant that every time I went to mothers, she would either talk about sister and Bil and how they were, to which I would say I'm not interested, which started up the lecture about how i was making mother ill again, making a big deal out of things again, that incident happened ages ago, I was told it wouldn' happen again, what am I hoping to achieve by constantly bringing it up etc etc.
Or Bil and sister would be there, like it was prearranged when I turned up, although of course it never was, was just a coincidence and I had an overactive imagination thinking that.
Then when i got up to leave, I was apparently wrong and wouldn't let it go. Apparently it did me no good to hold grudges.

I got worn down with it all, which is exactly what they intended. So I just made sure DS was never alone with Bil. Didn't stop mother or sister suggesting Bil look after DS while we went to the local shops. Even though I refused, I got grief mainly from my mother for that.
The whole thing just became the unspeakable.
And no one respected my decision because it didn't fit in with what they wanted.

MrsMushroom Sat 09-Feb-13 09:53:48

What do you plan to do when/if it happens again? Which tactic will you use?

Also you do realise that abusers do this...they break down barriers in public to make it more acceptable when worse things happen.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 09:55:52

The way my family work is like this.
Bil was nasty to DS years ago. I was speechless at the time. I couldn't quite believe what he'd done.
DS was preschool at that time.
I told Bil to get out of my house, then I told my mother and sister what had happened and how i didn't want Bil in my house ever again.
My sister told me in very detached clipped tones that if I cut off her husband, I was effectively cutting her whole family off and i was no sister of hers.
I didn't want to back down, so I said if that's how she felt, then that was her choice. She left.
Then my mother began ringing me and turning up at my door at all hours telling me i was breaking her heart/making her ill by falling out with sister.
I told my mother what had happened and she just kept saying 'how long are you going to continue this for? You're not always right LMS. I can't bear you and sister to fall out. It won't happen again.' and on and on.
Then i went to my mothers one day and Bil was sitting there and everyone was behaving as if nothing had happened, all laughing and joking. Mother had already put meat in the oven and everyone was happy so i stayed for dinner, then left hoping it was a one off. Of course it wasn't. It seemed everyone had forgotten how I felt and that meant that every time I went to mothers, she would either talk about sister and Bil and how they were, to which I would say I'm not interested, which started up the lecture about how i was making mother ill again, making a big deal out of things again, that incident happened ages ago, I was told it wouldn' happen again, what am I hoping to achieve by constantly bringing it up etc etc.
Or Bil and sister would be there, like it was prearranged when I turned up, although of course it never was, was just a coincidence and I had an overactive imagination thinking that.
Then when i got up to leave, I was apparently wrong and wouldn't let it go. Apparently it did me no good to hold grudges.

I got worn down with it all, which is exactly what they intended. So I just made sure DS was never alone with Bil. Didn't stop mother or sister suggesting Bil look after DS while we went to the local shops. Even though I refused, I got grief mainly from my mother for that.
The whole thing just became the unspeakable.
And no one respected my decision because it didn't fit in with what they wanted.

CartedOff Sat 09-Feb-13 09:57:41

Your family sound manipulative and horrible and quite frankly toxic. They don't care about anything but getting you to toe the line. I would distance myself from them rather than be expected to put up with all of that and the way your bil treats your daughter. None of this is normal.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 10:08:29

And like any toxic family, they're not nasty all the time, but when they are it's awful. I always come off worst.
I have swept so much under the carpet over the years, mainly because of how nasty they can be imo.
Of course, they always justify what they have done, that's if they even acknowledge it at all.
I am still angry about many things they have done but I try to push it out of my mind because I will never get them to acknowledge or apologise or amend their behaviour.

It's surreal sometimes the way they are indignant about the way a friend has been treated, yet I sit there listening, screaming in my head that 'but that's almost exactly what you did to me and how can you reconcile yourself to thinking it is terrible what happened to your friend when you did that to me???'

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:08:32

I agree they sound toxic. I am sorry but from your posts, you are right and they are wrong, which means you need to stand your ground.

Your mother has no right interfering. She sounds quite toxic herself.

Many people have to avoid their entire family for reasons as you describe.

Can you explain what was the horrile thing your BIL did?

One thing - just because you let it go before, or made up before, or haven't got angry before doesn't mean you are trapped playing their game forever. You can draw a line n the sand any time. You are entitled to make a fuss. You are entitled to ask for fair treatment.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:10:51

Oh I want to send you a hug. They sound pretty awful and I would avoid avoid avoid them.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 10:11:24

So yes there is a huge back story. I have very few friends and the only support I have is from my family, so I get through the bad times now as best I can, because otherwise I would have no one. Not a single person. sad

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:13:01

They reconcile thinking that about the friend because they are damaged, their damage hurts you, they know it's wrong but they cannot face up to it so they pity someone who had the same because that assuages guilt a little without causing them the crisis of re-evaluating their own behaviour and lives.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:14:57

Oh I'm sorry it's like that just now.

Go on the stately homes thread in relationships, you are not alone.

What support do they give you?

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 10:17:55

It's incredibly difficult and you have my sympathy.
I once turned up to see a family member and the man that had sexually abused me was sitting there.they honestly expected me to get over it and have lunch.

The thing that helped me was recognising that whilst I had never had the courage to stick up for myself, I refused to let my dc get sucked into the same situation. So I started dealing with it.

Yes it was painful but so worth it. I now see the fab family members I love. The ones who were awful know never to start with me. And a couple I simply refuse to be in the same room as.
I am not angry or argumentative just if I turn up and they are there I leave.

Don't let your dc grow up thinking that manipulative behaviour is what families do.
Good luck.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 10:20:47

LMS

You may have no one else because all this disfunctional shit is not leaving you room or energy for normal friendships.
But better to be alone modelling kindness and support to your dc that pretending that ganging up and passive bullying is ok.

If you draw clear lines and stand up for that people have to move around you. They only manipulate you because they can.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 10:27:41

Bil picked up DS by the shoulder of his jumper and threw him across the room, while we were all in the adjoining room because DS was deliberately standing in front of the tv while Bil was trying to watch the football. . . . in my house!!
18 Months later, after many many uncomfortable conversations, after I had decided not to leave DS alone with Bil, we reached an uneasy truce where I accompanied DS everywhere.
We all went to a farm for the day. Over lunch, DS and I were sat at a picnic bench and Bil decided to sit opposite US with nephew.
DS (3) pulled faces at nephew and i decided to ignore and said to Bil 'just ignore him' after asking DS to stop being silly.
Suddenly, nephew began crying and as if out of nowhere, Bil leant over the bench in lightening quick time and punched DS on the shoulder, Bil face contorted with anger.
I didn't have a car at that time so told mother I wanted to go home and she clearly felt uncomfortable explaining to sister why we were going so told me to wait and stay away from Bil for rest of day until we got home.
It was after this that I told sis that Bil was not welcome in my house ever again and we had the conversation as explained above.

Strangely enough, when Bil punched his own DS a couple of years later, sister told him that if he ever did that again she would divorce him. Again??? She seemed to have forgotten that he HAD done it previously to my DS!!!!
And that is not even covering the nasty things sister and mum have done to me.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:32:30

Oh LMS, I think your family have done things that go so far beyond acceptable.

You would be better without. I echo what Pag says about friendships being easier when these people are not eating your energy.

He punched your son? That is a crime, you could have reported him.

How do they support you? Is it practical support or just he feeling of being alone if you cut them off?

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 10:35:06

Mother and sister have been there to help me in whatever way they can, financially, helping me out with DD when I have been struggling and needed time out before I lost my mind.
They have given me furniture, mum had DS over at weekends so I could work. My sister gave me a job.
Lots of other things that i can't think off the top of my head. I live in the arse end of nowhere and they will take me shopping or to pay my bills when my car either has no petrol or is off the road.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 10:37:49

I also have quite bad social anxiety and my mother mostly will go places with me to get DD and me out of the house.
I'm ok when i am with my mother, also it helps my mother because she is disabled now and struggles with getting out on her own.

CartedOff Sat 09-Feb-13 10:37:58

But they bully you relentlessly, even when you are trying to protect your children from a man who crosses boundaries, has been violent with them and enjoys taking out his frustration on your daughter. Or gets jollies out of forcing her to be close to him sad

HecateWhoopass Sat 09-Feb-13 10:39:00

I really think you should just not spend time with them.

The bad really outweighs the good.

Your children don't deserve the crap they're getting and neither do you.

If the price you are paying for a bit of financial help and some babysitting is for you and your children to be treated like crap and for your children to be manhandled and hurt - the price is too high

foslady Sat 09-Feb-13 10:39:06

I would teach my dd that in these circumstances it is acceptable to fight back and bite down on him. Hard.

I vaguely remember something similar (had forgotten about it until now) and hated it. I'd also start saying very loudly along the 'Inappropriate touching is child abuse' line - my daughter, my rules and get the fuck off her.

Good luck

thebody Sat 09-Feb-13 10:47:26

But you are in a trap arnt you? Bil knows you and your Dcs are in the trap too so he is able to dominate you.

If I were you I would write to your mother and sister detailing your feelings re bil and reiterating all the incidents that you have out down here. Tell them that you have considered going to the police about bils assault in your son but didn't. However if bil ever lays so much as one hand on ds or dd in ANY WAY then you will report his behaviour to the authorities.

Meanwhile distance yourself from them as much as poss, make new friends, join a church group, parents association etc,

Lots of people have anxiety but your posts do show you are essentially a strong woman who wants to protect her children.

Go for it.

foslady Sat 09-Feb-13 10:49:41

Sorry - just read the middle page.

It sounds like they do the 'good' things because they can see the shit that BIL does, and it keeps you 'sweet' when things go wrong.

BIL is a massive bully and it sounds like you mum and sis are scared of him and you sticking up for your children scares them as you are the only one who effectively stands up to him (sorry, but your sister saying 'If you do that again' is an empty threat, just like if you say that to a child again and again, BIL obviously HAS done abusive stuff, even if it's not punching, and she hasn't left him).

Hence your mum saying it makes her ill - she's scared about your sister and what shit she'll face from him.

If your sister and mum won't back you up and make a stand against him unitedly, then all you can do is keep drawing the line in the sand which he mustn't cross yourself and insist your children, your rules - not his bullying ways

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:51:19

You may find your social anxiety is caused by your family.

This is terribly sad. It feels you feel you coud nt cope without them yet they bully and abuse you which means you feel you could to cope.

I think the bad outweighs the good.

I strongly urge getting away from them. They are not nice to you or your chidren.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 10:52:34

Sorry, should read 'yet they bully and abuse you which means you feel you could not cope'

HandbagCrab Sat 09-Feb-13 10:55:15

Surely you can see they are giving you a bit of help to keep you in your place as their whipping boy?

Do you think perhaps your social anxiety is caused through only socialising with people who make you anxious? I'm not surprised you feel anxious as you are so enmeshed in their toxic behaviour.

If my bil hit my ds I'd knock his block off! And now he is physical with your dd too. You cannot have people like this in a child's life and expect them to grow up with full self worth and self esteem. Imagine how scary it must be to be expected to be nicey nicey with people four times your size who hit and restrain and no one does anything about it.

You are repeating the patterns with your dc that you grew up with. You need to go to your gp, get something for the anxiety and get on the counselling waiting list. I'm sure you are a lovely person and I think if you can escape the clutches of your awful family you will have friends and people who love you without awful conditions. Even if you didn't your dc will love you and will hopefully grow up without some of the problems which now plague you. Best of luck smile

MrsSpagBol Sat 09-Feb-13 10:58:57

Think this is the best option

"I think its horrible, and i know how it feels, but i think a lot of people really dont have a clue how unpleasant it is. I would just be straight and say " i dont want DD to grow up thinking its okay for men to restrain her when she has told them to let go". Be poker faced and really cats bum mouth about it too, so he sees how disdainful it is from women's perspective. "

Good luck, hope you get it sorted. I feel quite disturbed just reading about it, I can totally understand how you feel.

diddl Sat 09-Feb-13 11:12:32

Well I don´t think that your Mum & sister have done anything extraordinary-nothing that any Mum or sister wouldn´t do if they were able at the time tbh.

Certainly they haven´t/could never do anything that means you should put up with BIL bullying/abusing your children.

Shelby2010 Sat 09-Feb-13 11:30:19

I agree with the other posters that it's your whole family that is a problem for you not just BIL.

It sounds like you have been trying to stand up to him/avoid him and as it's not working you probably will have to cut him out of your life completely. If that upsets your mother & sister then tough.

A more trivial suggestion would be to wear something with big pockets & keep a loaded water pistol in it. Give him a squirt in the face (or groin) if he comes near her, or blast in the ear drum if he grabs her. Then you too are only 'playing'.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 11:33:24

I do seem to pick up friends who talk to me like shit, but I avoid them, because on some deeper level, I know it isn't right. Lately, I have begun to become friendly with a couple of lovely people, who treat me lovely, and I hope I can cultivate those friendships.

When faced with confrontation, I tend to freeze, like a rabbit caught in headlights, my mouth goes dry and my legs start shaking. I really am pathetic!! Strangely enough, I have no issue with standing up to xp.

It is not my bil who my mother and sister are afraid of btw. My mother always backs down to my sister, and my sister is the dominant partner in her marriage, hence why when sister tells Bil to let go of DD, he does, then acts all sheepishly.

Bil is an emotional mess around my sister, because she haas no respect for him, and he stutters and dithers, although every so often, he will speak up when sister is ranting at him which she does whenever she sees fit, regardless of how humiliating it is for him and when he speaks up, you can clearly see the pent up anger he is feeling. He appears to be struggling to control his anger at these times, but has learnt over time that my sister is like a dog with a bone, and never gives up.

It has been a while since my sister or mother have done anything awful to me, mainly because I don't see my sister very often, but I try to stand up for what I believe in to my mother.
My mother is intimidated by my sister and will go to extraordinary lengths not to upset my sister, which has the effect that my sister is not treated like crap by my mother, but means that I have grown up knowing, even more so since I became an adult, that my sister comes first.

PurplePidjin Sat 09-Feb-13 11:40:09

Are you absolutely certain he isn't knocking your sister about as revenge for your defiance (or whatever pathetic excuse he uses to justify his despicable behaviour)? Its the only rational explanation I can think of for your mum to take her side over yours sad

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 11:41:33

You are not pathetic. You hae had a lifetime of living in a very messed-up family dynamic and you are responding to that.

I would suggest treatment for anxiety and counselling as someone else suggested.

Your mother is very responsible for the disparity between how She treatsyour sister and how she treats you.

FeckOffCup Sat 09-Feb-13 11:42:12

Your BIL is abusive, there is no excuse for him punching your DS or restraining your DD, I wouldn't let him be in their presence again if I were you. He needs to grow a pair and stand up to your sister not take his anger out on children, he sounds like he has serious anger issues.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 11:46:08

I am 100% certain that Bil is not violent to my sister. He is intimidated by her and is scared (for want of a better word) of upsetting her. He tiptoes around her and she makes him feel like shit if he disagrees with her.

I agree I would benefit from counselling.

BacardiNCoke Sat 09-Feb-13 11:46:14

It sounds like he's the type of man who likes to bully people he deems weaker than himself. Also am I right in thinking he's the only grown up bloke in the family? That your dad and DC's dad aren't around? As much as I hate to say it I think he may only start to back off properly if challenged by another bloke. Is there any way you could take a male friend with you to this birthday party? Or borrow a friend's husband for a few hours? I think he may actually listen if a bloke told him to back the fuck off.

KenLeeeeeee Sat 09-Feb-13 11:49:22

Your family sound absolutely dreadful. I really think you should seek out some sort of counselling to deal with all the things they've done over the years and give you some tools to stand up to them in future. As it stands, you're trapped because you need their support and so are too intimidated to really put your foot down about what is unacceptable behaviour.

Think of it this way, if a friend had come to your and told you about incidents like this from a family member to their children, wouldn't you be telling them to cut this person/these people out of their children's lives immediately? At present it doesn't sound like you could do that because you rely on them for help, but if you can start the ball rolling to being more independent and more confident without them, it will put you in a better position to not tolerate any more of this vile behaviour.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 11:56:09

Bacardi He is exactly that type of man, although his own DS is now an adult, as is my DS.
When I was with xp, we all went out one day. The DC began kicking a football around, and Bil joined in, kicking the ball to xp.
When xp tackled Bil, Bil 'hacked' xp and kicked xp hard in the shin to get the ball off of xp. Xp stood up and told Bil that wasn't how you played football and Bil laughed. He thought it was hilarious to see xp hobbling over to him.
Xp squared up to Bil and told him that if he ever did that again, xp would knock him out. Bil backed off, with the usual sheepish look.

Years later, Bil laughs about the time he 'hacked' xp and sister and mother laugh along, even though they fail to mention the rest of what happened.

Xp doesn't engage at all with xp now, and has openly said he hopes he doesn't bump into xp. hmm

Sister and mother did some pretty awful stuff when I met xp to break up my relationship. Xp did turn out to be an abusive tosser, but even before they had met him, they did some despicable stuff, so sister, mother and Bil now think xp is fair game to sneer at and criticise.

Every time I discover something new about xp, (usually something bad) sister or mother will say 'I knew that all along.'

How they knew some of this stuff all along is nothing short of ESP. Apparently they always knew xp never had a full driving licence, even though xp had been driving with no problems in various family members vehicles as well as my car, and had never been refused insurance. They hated xp driving my car, with my permission, because he was just using me, yet even knowing what they claim to have known all along, they never reported him. hmm
That's just one example.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 11:57:46

Sorry, meant to say Bil doesn't engage at all with xp now.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 11:59:06

Oh, it's all so fucked up isn't it?

The other thing is that mother and sister will do whatever it takes, irrelevant of the consequences, to get what they want or to punish me for not toeing the line.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 12:06:23

Haven't read the whole thread, but my BiL once held into my dd in a way that she coyldnt escape, and the more distressed she got, the harder he held until she cried. He will never do it again. I made it very clear (and loud) that if he touches her again, he will be picking his teeth up off the floor. My sister left in tears. I think they still maintain that I over reacted. I don't give a fuck. I will never have hum with either dc unattended, and my family know this is not to happen under any cicumstances. Follow your instincts and find some rage; unleaded it on him

lemmein Sat 09-Feb-13 12:08:36

OP your family is VERY toxic and though you say they help you when you're struggling with anxiety the truth is THEY are causing your anxiety - its a vicious, nasty circle.

About your social anxiety - i suffered with that for years, hardly left the house, used to hid when there was a knock on the door, etc. The only friend i had was from childhood. Im 2 years free from it now, went to college - made some amazing friends. It CAN be beaten. Im only adding this because when i had it i thought it was a lifetime sentence, it really isnt.

Protect your daughter from this man - and your family, its the only way to prevent her from having the same future problems.

lemmein Sat 09-Feb-13 12:10:04

Lots of people have anxiety but your posts do show you are essentially a strong woman who wants to protect her children.

This ^^

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 12:10:19

Blackmail, humiliation, making a scene, ringing schools with various unfounded silly accusations, allegations to SS, screaming 'paedophile' across public places, slagging me off to anyone who will listen, and there's plenty who will.

I have always been the daughter with no common sense, the one who is vulnerable and needs help, the one who can't cope on my own, the inadequate one who gives nothing but worries, the one who thinks she knows best with a massive chip on her shoulder. That's me!! That's how my mother in particular describes me to her few friends and they believe her!!

Mother cannot be trusted, I cannot tell my mother anything without it getting back to my sister, or relayed to her friends. In fact, the minute I hang up after a conversation with my mother, she picks her phone straight back up and rings someone, usually my sister, or if not, her friends and regales them with my latest tale of woe.
To this end, I don't tell my mother anything anymore unless necessary. The result of this is that mother assumes what is going on in my life and relays that as fact instead.

Mother assumes everything, she knows nothing but assumes everything.

Conversations go like this:

Me: I will be over when I have picked up DD from xp's.
When I arrive at mother's...Mother: How did pick up go?
Me: Fine.
Mother: Oh no, what happened?
Me: Nothing, it was fine.
Mother: Only fine?
Me: It was ok, nothing to tell.
Mother: Oh it's just the way you say 'fine' I assume something went wrong.
Me: Nothing went wrong.

Mother then phones sister and tells her that there were problems at pick up, but of course LMS wont talk to me, I don't know why, but can you ask her what happened, I think she is upset.

Sister phones me: What happened at pick up? Mother thinks you are upset.
Me: Nothing happened, everything was fine.
Sister: Well you need to tell mother that because she is worried.

That is how virtually every conversation goes, and mother always always seems to think the worst. If you don't give her verse and chapter, she makes her own version up.
Mother is an extremely negative person, yet if I say anything negative, I am not helping myself getting upset about things, I need to relax. Ha fucking ha. The joke's on me I think. angry

BumBiscuits Sat 09-Feb-13 12:11:49

They sound awful. I read a pamphlet in the doctors' waiting room the other day 40 min wait was über bored . It was advice about how old kids had to be before going out and about themselves eg walking to school or going to the shops. There was an interesting bit about not forcing kids into letting adults tickle/kiss/hug them when they don't like it. Kids who aren't allowed to have their own mind in these normal family situations ( who can forget screwing up their face and wiping kisses off after a smacker from an elderly relative?) can be more vulnerable to predatory adults when not with parents. It was something I'd never thought of and will not be saying "aw give Granda/uncle/gran/auntie a hug" again when they don't want to.

BumBiscuits Sat 09-Feb-13 12:13:08

Sorry my point is don't let your fucking idiot of a BIL near your DD.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 12:17:49

Sorry lms I should have read the whole thread blush I see your family don't back you up sad You need to cut him off, and them until they 'get it' angry

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 12:25:00

I admire you for doing what you did BigAudio.

I have to go out now, but will be back later.

Thanks for all of the support. I wish everyone was as caring as you people on here. smile
However, I think if you are the type of person to freeze when confronted, then you probably do attract toxic people into your life. That's not an excuse, nor is it scientific grin but it makes sense to me.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 12:25:28

And bumbiscuits That is actually very interesting!

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 12:28:51

That little angry face at the end of your last post gives me hope, i hope as you are describing a difficult mother, you can see it is not right and it is not about you.

Of course they tell you you can't cope, vulnerable, need help. They're terrified you'll be fine, and then who will they look down on?

It is hard to face up to, but I think inside you know they are in the wrong, not you.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 12:46:21

lms confrontation is much easier if you know someone had your back, huh

I think if you ditch this shower, your confidence will climb and you will most likely attract some kind supportive worthy people into your life

Morloth Sat 09-Feb-13 13:03:19

Keep your children away from all of these people.

To do otherwise is to be conplicit in their abuse.

What does he have to do to them before you put them first? He has thrown and punched your DS and is forcing himself on your DD?

SmilingHappyBeaver Sat 09-Feb-13 13:28:05

What Bumbiscuits said.

TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS.

Keep your daughter away from him.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 13:32:19

LMS
I also thinkthat if the behaviour is accepted by everyone and as been going on forever it becomes normal. And suddenly forcing a change is incredibly difficult.

I changed things by just withdrawing when I felt they crossed a line - no explaining or arguing, nothing that gave them a chance to tell me patronising things like how I was being silly or over reacting. I would just say 'do you know, I'm off. I will see you another time' and leave.

lovetomoan Sat 09-Feb-13 13:39:57

You can be 'the walkover' in your family if you like, but your DD doesn't have to be.
You must defend your DD. Your BIL is an asshole.

zwischenzug Sat 09-Feb-13 13:42:18

It's one thing being a "walkover" yourself as you put it, but when it comes to your children that just isn't good enough.

If you allow your BIL to carry on with borderline paedophilic behaviour towards your daughter you are failing as a parent.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 14:09:09

It is one of my biggest regrets that I didn't stand up for DS more. To the poster who said my anger gives them hope, I am not angry. I am furious!! At myself mainly for letting this happen.
As pagwatch said, it is very very difficult though.
Thank you for all of your support.

YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue Sat 09-Feb-13 18:30:46

It is very difficult. But not impossibly difficult, you can do it.

I Hope you turn that anger where it belongs. Yes, you can say you 'let' it happen, but this is the family you grew up in, it's hard to work this stuff out from the inside. But it was not you who actually did it. Your BIL, DS, Mum are responsible for their actions.

I really hope you work your way away from this dynamic.

countrykitten Sat 09-Feb-13 20:00:45

God he sounds creepy. Your poor daughter. You must stand up to him and damn well make scene for her sake. Forget the niceties, he is wrong and it is inappropriate in many ways.

alcibiades Sat 09-Feb-13 20:27:49

Oh, littlemiss, I feel so very sad on your behalf - your family really have done a number on you, haven't they? All their supposed "kindness" and "support" really isn't that all. It isn't surprising that you ended up with an abusive ex, because your family has taught you to be a "put up and shut up" person. You did very well to make him your ex.

It will take time to disentangle yourself from your family but it can be done, with the right kind of support. I see from a quick glance of other posts you've made here that you are very supportive of others, so you've still managed to retain that kindly and gentle part of you, despite your family.

Maybe the next step for you is to ask MNHQ to move this thread into Relationships. There are many people there who understand toxic families/abusive relationships who could give you advice about how to extricate yourself and your DD from this situation. Some of them may not read AIBU.

In particular, I'm wondering about Women's Aid or similar organisations who can give you the proper kindness and support you deserve, and help you make that move (emotional/geographical) to a better life for you and your DD.

littlemisssarcastic Sat 09-Feb-13 20:49:19

I can understand some of why I ended up in an abusive relationship now.
When I stood back and looked at how my ex treated me, the similarities to how my mother has treated me all these years are staggering!!!
In fact, my mother had actually betrayed me in exactly the same ways that xp later did, and mother carried out many of these betrayals before I even met xp.

My mother points out xp's faults but fails to see her own. Maybe we, as people, are programmed not to see our own faults though??

I will ask for this to be moved to relationships. Thanks again.

Chottie Sat 09-Feb-13 20:56:24

Just to say, dig deep and stay strong. Your feelings as a mother are right, BiL's behaviour is out of order. Please do what you have to for your DD. Break the cycle x.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 09-Feb-13 20:58:00

Evening. The OP's asked us to move this thread to Relationships, so we're going to do that for her now.

gimmecakeandcandy Sat 09-Feb-13 23:28:31

I am so sad for your dd that she has to put up with this, that - I'm sorry this will sound harsh - you let her go though this by allowing this behaviour from your bil.

Lueji Sun 10-Feb-13 07:37:23

Maybe we, as people, are programmed not to see our own faults though??

Not all, but some, IYKWIM.

Throwing a child across a room would deserve a call to the police.

With DD, you need to look BIL in his eyes and tell him in a firm voice that he is not to touch your DD ever again. At any attempt to argue back, just say "ever again".

I wonder what you actually get from your family. The way they are toxic, it probably worsens your own problems.
Being away from them would probably make you more confident in yourself.

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