Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

To feel physically sickened about what happened today? DD's 'father' (who she's never met!) is one of the staff members at her after school club!

(176 Posts)
ScaryWary Fri 08-Feb-13 00:49:14

I'm still in shock, so sorry if this turns out to be a bit of a ramble. Not spoken to anyone in RL about this yet today, as every time i mention him to friends/family, they just rant and name call, whereas i need a sensible, outside perspective.

DD (just turned 5yo) has started going to a sports club in the gym hall after school for an hour on Thursdays.

Today was the first session.

When i went and picked her up, i noticed my ex - dd's father - was one of the sport coaches/staff members. He was dealing with the register and ticking off the kids' names as parents came for them. I didn't even recognise him for a moment. I called on dd then turned to tell him her name (so he could mark her off the register) and that's when we both seemed to recognise each other.

He looked terrified. Looked at me, then dd briefly, then turned away to another parent who was telling him to mark her child's name from the register.

I grabbed dd and bolted home with her.

She had no idea who he was. He, it would seem, had no idea who she was until he saw me and put two and two together. They'd spent an hour together not knowing who each other was.

I'm now sickened and in shock. I can't believe this has happened.

He is a vile, horrible man (well, he was to me anyway). He was abusive in our relationship, mostly emotionally, would force/blackmail me into having sex with him, called me names, hit me twice, trashed my flat one time because i was delayed amswering the buzzer to him (i was vaccuuming so couldn't hear it).

When dd was born, his anger problems worsened. I begged him to get help, he didn't. He'd invite his friends round to my flat, get drunk, while i was expected to look after newborn dd.

He was drunk one night and almost dropped her down the stairs when she was 3 days old. I burst into tears and he got angry with me for crying and 'making him feel bad'. He shoved me against the wall while i was holding her.

He left. A few days later, he was round for a visit (trying to make excuses for his behaviour/apologise etc). Stupidly, i agreed to let him stay the night on the sofa. DD was not sleeping through. She was crying all night. Partner stormed upstairs yelling at her to shut the fuck up, picked her up and started shaking her, screaming 'you've been fed and changed - what the fuck else do you want?'

I told him to leave. Only when i threatened to go to the police did he finally go.

The police visited me in the morning. They said it would be hard to press charges as it would be my word against his. I had taken dd to the docs that morning too and she was fine, no marks etc. He only shook her a little, not enough to leave physical evidence.

Anyway, never saw him again after that. He never made contact, and i never bothered to look him up. I changed dd's surname back to mine when she was 18months old, and gave her a new middle name, hoping this would stop him being able to locate her easily (e.g. seeing her name randomly in the local newspaper etc).

So today is the first time i've seen him since dd was a few days old.

What do i do? DD has autism, and her father's brother has it too. I can remember ex and his vile mother calling the brother horrid disabilist names, slapping him, telling him he's an idiot, teasing him about how he'll never have a normal life etc.

This man is an animal. No matter how much i complained in the past about his antics, it was always my word against his, so he has a clean police record. He was very clever.

Due to dd's autism, she finds social situations difficult. When i read the info pack for this sports club i thought it would be the making of her! She has been looking forward to it for weeks. She'll be heartbroken if i take her out of it for no (apparent) reason.

I'm so confused. This man shouldn't be teaching in schools He shouldn't be around kids. Especially mine. But i'll look like a maniac if i go into the school and reveal his past when i have no proof.

What if this makes him suddenly decide he wants to be a part in dd's life? What if he tries to make contact?

I feel scared about taking her to school tomorrow. After i'd left, he could have went and spoke to the Head about dd for all i know. He could request to see her school record etc. I feel so powerless. How can a man - a stranger to dd - be allowed to just waltz back into her life so easily?

DD is desperate for a father figure. I've never had another relationship since her father (who was my first). I think she notices she's the only child in her class with no dad. SHe constantly quizzes me about him. I try to give honest, neutral answers. 'He didn't want to be a dad' 'He and Mummy didn't get on very well.' 'Your very lucky because you have a mummy, and some people don't have mums or dads at all.'

If she ever got wind of that man being her father, she'd be all over him like a rash.

My stomach is in knots.

Told you this would be a ramble.

quoteunquote Fri 08-Feb-13 00:58:14


Is it one of those sports club after school things?

Go and speak to the head teacher, tell him or her what you have said above. If it a visiting after school club, maybe they could send someone else.

YANBU to feel worried, sick & confused.
I'm afraid I have no idea what I'd do. All the best.

SavoyCabbage Fri 08-Feb-13 01:00:55

I don't think they will think you are a maniac, the school. Phone tomorrow and ask for an appointment to see the head. Tell her. She needs to know. It will be awful for you but you can do it. The school need to know that they must keep an extra eye on your dd and that there is a history with this man.

In the meantime take your dd out of the club. Ask friends over and do little things with her after school to soften the blow.Make a cake, go to the library. Enrol her in something else if you have to.

If he tries to contact you then that is the biggest worry I think. The rest can be dealt with.

It must have been a massive shock for you. Remember that there is always someone on MN to talk to.

NatashaBee Fri 08-Feb-13 01:01:19

I agree, I'd talk to the head teacher before he does. Did you fill in a form with your name/ address on when you joined the activity?

shock- no idea what to advice but:

it doesn't sound like he wants to get involved from his previous behaviour (if he'd wanted to see your DD he'd have found a way). Maybe today was such a shock for him, but his reaction doesn't suggest he's going to make contact .

I'm sure if you tell the school (and stress the confidentiality ) that you don't want anyone looking at your DD reports etc

and sad I'd take her out of the Sports Club. Better she's upset now than you worrying all the time about her contact with him when you aren't there.

HildaOgden Fri 08-Feb-13 01:11:23

Agree with everything SavoyCabbage said.

I doubt he is going to want to start contact now really.He had no intention of it before now.I don't know how to word this tactfully,but now that he has met her and seen she is 'imperfect' (please don't be hurt by that,it's not my personal view but it's probably how he sees things bearing in mind his attitude to his brother with the same condition),I think it is even less likely.

Talk to the head on a personal level ,tell her your story.Remove dd from class and do something else.And please,please try not to over worry.He was a deadbeat Dad to start with,he's not suddenly going to want to ride in all hero-like and step up to the plate now.

You might even find that he quits teaching the class sooner than having to deal with you,and any possible maintenance claim.

MyCannyBairn Fri 08-Feb-13 03:26:19

Why is he helping, was that his occupation, or is it possible he is the parent to another child at school ?
I think Hilda makes a good point actually, he is less likely to want anything to do with a less than perfect child ( my dd is asd too, and it is quite the twat filter ) being such a twat.
What a nightmare, I hope you are feeling ok, what a horrible shock that must have been.

Alligatorpie Fri 08-Feb-13 03:33:09

How awful . No advice, but I am sorry you have to go through this.

AngelAtTheTopOfTheTree Fri 08-Feb-13 04:06:27

That's awful, poor you. I would take her out of the club I'm afraid and find something else for her.

I hope you find a way that works for you and your DD.

aftermay Fri 08-Feb-13 04:12:45

What a shock for you. I wouldn't worry about him seeing your DD's school records etc but I would speak to the Headteacher. Perhaps ask as well that they have checked the registration/qualification/CRB of the clubs they allow in on school premises.

Did your DD like the club? Is there anything similar you could take her to instead? Maybe at weekends. Or could you face going to the club with her and watching during the activity?

sashh Fri 08-Feb-13 04:41:05

You are in shock.

He will also be in shock.

He might decide he should not be at that particular group.

Not sure what you can do to force him not to be near your dd if she stays at the club.

I think the first step would be to make an appointment to see the head, tell them it is important and you might need an hour. Then say everything you have said here.

Maybe print it out for the head to read.

What do you want to happen? For dd to continue but without this man?

He may have a clear CRB but there will be a record of the police visit and you taking your dd to the Dr.

You could write to the group and say this man assaulted you and your daughter in the past and that you do not want him near your dd.

I'm not sure what they would or could do.

What a mess, sorry not helping but here to hand hold.

BigGiantCowWithAKnockKnockTail Fri 08-Feb-13 04:53:23

I agree that you must talk to the head.

What kind of personal details is he likely to have access to from the enrollment form?

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 05:03:27

I wouldn't be running to the head with this information tbh, you can just leave the club you don't need the school to hear all this, you have no evidence, they cannot take your word for it.

Take her out by all means but the man will have had a CRB check - just proves they aren't worth the paper they are printed on - and an interview, somebody has decided he is the right man for the job.

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 06:16:07

He's not employed directly by the school? This is one of those clubs that comes in and effectively rents the premises from teh school, then has the school children use those facilities?

Difficult call because he isn't directly employed by the LA, however the school has a duty of care. However, should you talk to the Head, then she will have to request that particular coach isn't to come back, that then alerts him that you are indeed who he thinks you maybe.

That could go two ways, either he will slip off into the sunset praying you aren't going to go to the CSA and chase him, OR he's going to want to see your daughter.

Out of curiosity, if you were able to change her name, presumably legally, I take it he isn't on the birth certificate?

BrianButterfield Fri 08-Feb-13 06:24:44

Right, don't worry about him seeing her records - there is no chance whatsoever of that happening. I'm a teacher and I haven't even seen my own students' full records and never will unless in exceptional circumstances.

I would tell the head. His/her first priority should be the health and well-being of their students and this clearly has the potential to impact upon one of them. If I were the teacher in this situation I would want to know and would understand your worries.

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 06:32:40

But he may have access to the childs enrolement record - name, DOB, address, contact number in emergency and all the medical stuff that has to be filled in when join any of these clubs. Emergency contacts etc are not going to be just on a central data base in case of emergency. They will be transported to and from the session.

BoffinMum Fri 08-Feb-13 06:32:50

Speak to the head on a personal basis, and ask her to tell the sports club company to stop sending your DD's dad to the school. He shouldn't be there anyway if he's abusive and has a drink problem.

LovesBeingWokenEveryNight Fri 08-Feb-13 06:38:06

I agree about speaking to the head. What a terrible shock for you.

Littlefish Fri 08-Feb-13 06:38:17

Does he have parental responsibility?

I think you should go and see the Headteacher as soon as possible to discuss your concerns.

ComradeJing Fri 08-Feb-13 06:45:48

Poor you.

I doubt he would suddenly want to get involved but I would speak to the head teacher to give them a heads up.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 06:58:58

ask her to tell the sports club company to stop sending your DD's dad to the school. He shouldn't be there anyway if he's abusive and has a drink problem.

On what basis is this guy about to lose his job, some mum at the school says he's the father of her child and is abusive, no name on the BC and no police record of this abuse, look at it from the heads point of view it's her word against his, the OP will sound unhinged.

CoffeeandDunkingBiscuits Fri 08-Feb-13 07:07:06

Gash, what a hard situation. I agree you need to speak to the school.

GrowSomeCress Fri 08-Feb-13 07:11:31

What an awful awful situation sad definitely speak to the head

Kat101 Fri 08-Feb-13 07:29:58

I would probably do nothing, if it was me. Which may well be the wrong thing to do. But I can't see him telling anyone about this - what's he going to say, that his daughter who he hurt, never paid for and abandoned has suddenly turned up and he didn't even recognise her? I doubt he would want his past brought up and raked over, it wouldn't look great for his employers. I would remove your dd from the class and wait it out.

jamdonut Fri 08-Feb-13 07:48:24

Is it just possible that he has managed to turn his life around,now?

He may not be the same person you knew him as?

Having said that, I can understand how you feel. I think I would mention it to the school,actually. Its a safeguarding children thing ,and the school needs to be aware. The Head is your best bet.
And don't let her go to the club again ,find something else for her to do. I'm sure you can find some excuse to give her if she asks why.

And thanks Mosman for your remarks about those of us who have CRB checks. Very helpful. sad

CloudsAndTrees Fri 08-Feb-13 07:56:07

Poor you! Horrible situation for you to find yourself in, you have my sympathy.

You need to talk to the school, today. Make an appointment and insist its urgent. Don't expect it to be resolved instantly though, it's likely that the head will not have dealt with a situation like this before so s/he won't know what to do for the best straight away. You do need to talk to them though, so at the very least they can support your dd if she's upset about being withdrawn from the club. Her class teacher and the TA working with her need to know so that they can protect her adequately.

Is there anyone who was around at the time that knows what happened with this man and can back you up, or at least give you some emotional support?

aufaniae Fri 08-Feb-13 07:57:05

I would definitely speak to the head. Yes, on a legal level it's your word against his, but on a personal level the head will know what he's like. If i was the head I'd want to know. S/he needs to know, to understand the situation it's put you and your DD in, and to know about him and his temper, and attitudes towards disabled people, so that s/he can better protect the other DCs. The head may not be able to act on it with no evidence now (although you don't know unless you ask) but if they know what he's like, the head will surely at least be watching him more closely.
I think you have a duty to your DD and the other DCs to inform the school of what kind of man they have in their midst.

aufaniae Fri 08-Feb-13 07:59:36

"Her class teacher and the TA working with her need to know so that they can protect her adequately."

Absolutely. Also they need to know so if he does start making requests for info, they know it's inappropriate.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 08:03:46

CRB checks prove nothing the perpetrators haven't been caught yet at best, too many people - including myself have put too much faith in them over the years.
Legal/personal whatever, the head being told "what he's like" will hold no weight, where is the proof ?
I think the OP jus needs to be realistic, the head will not be able to "do" anything on hearsay.

ohfunnyhoneyface Fri 08-Feb-13 08:05:08

Definitely speak to the head confidentially- I imagine he won't come back to the school.

deXavia Fri 08-Feb-13 08:07:46

Horrible situation - and a huge shock - but the added factor here is what you say ^DD is desperate for a father figure. I've never had another relationship since her father (who was my first). I think she notices she's the only child in her class with no dad. SHe constantly quizzes me about him. I try to give honest, neutral answers. 'He didn't want to be a dad' 'He and Mummy didn't get on very well.' 'Your very lucky because you have a mummy, and some people don't have mums or dads at all.'
If she ever got wind of that man being her father, she'd be all over him like a rash at the end of your post^

I do think you need to tell the HT and discuss the situation as much for safety but because that will be someone who can perhaps advise you independently. The more people you tell the more likely this is to come out - if he is as you say then he probably won't tell anyone, and then its still your choice as and when you tell more to your child. If it comes out even as a whisper how will that impact you DD?

BalloonSlayer Fri 08-Feb-13 08:08:51

Agree with all the posters saying talk to the head.

I'm assuming that it is an outside sports club who come in to run the activity. They may well run activities at lots of schools and the head could contact the organisation and ask that the guy be switched to another school.

I don't know what people can get away with saying on these occasions but if the head were able to say it was: "on account of him being the estranged father of one of our pupils, with whom he has had no relationship with, since she was a newborn, the relationship having broken up acrimoniously. Obviously I can't comment further but the mother is clearly frightened of him and very distressed" it would speak volumes without making any accusations.

AngelaCatalano Fri 08-Feb-13 08:09:02

I'm afraid I agree with others that you need to take her out of the club. Then your next steps, if any, can be considered on a non urgent basis.

Not sure of how to tell her though- maybe others have some good ideas? One thing could be to get the head on board, and see if she can come up with an alternative for DD?

Although it would be good if he could be transferred or something it doesn't seem very likely.

So sorry you are going through this.

ScaryWary Fri 08-Feb-13 08:16:10

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Had little sleep last night, but feeling slightly more level-headed.

He does have PR (on birth certificate). However, when writing to the Deed Poll people, i advised them through letter what happened, how i don't know his whereabouts, and how he has played no part in dd's life since she was a week old. And they agreed he was an absent parent and allowed me to change her name without his permission.

Mosman - i completely believe what you're saying. And that's my worry. I have no proof whatsoever. The only witness i have is his mum (ex admitted to her in front of me that he'd hit me, and she told me to suck it up, her parner used to beat her daily, so me just getting hit once or twice wasn't a big deal).

Something tells me she won't give evidence. And i'm sure assault charges can only occur within 3 years of the attack?

The sports club is council/LA run. So he's a council employee. I don't think the Head will be happy to ask him not to come back just based on my word. The chances are he went to the Head himself yesterday after seeing me, and suggested i might come to her at one point and spout a load of 'lies' about him.

I definitely need to take dd from the club. But i'm dreading telling her. I've tried her with so many other things and this is the only one she's actually enjoyed.

It's notifying the school that i'm worried about. They can't ask him not to come back. The Head may very well think i'm just some mad ex with a grudge.

I really can't believe this is happening.

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 08:21:15

I can only give my opinion based on my experience as an adoptive mother.

If I took DS to a club and his birth mother was a staff member he would never go back there again.

My son also has ASD, his b.mother also has a history of violence and aggression. she was also never able to put his needs/safety first.

There is no way I could trust her to do that now. I don't care if she has 'turned her life around'. I could not take that chance. My DS comes first.

So does your DD. SHE is the important one here. Can you trust your EX not to approach her without consulting you first?

The damage done to any child, let alone one with ASD in five minutes by a selfish b.parent can last a lifetime.

If your DD is to have contact with this man it needs to be supervised, it cannot be in this secretive, unmonitored way.

This may be a jumping off point for discussing your DD's dad with her, with a view to contact in the future. It can't carry on this way. Its not safe for her.

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 08:24:21

I think you really should tell the head.
Not so they can sack him but so they can be aware there is an issue.

If you are calm and explain things factually the can think what they bloody want, they still have to listen to you.

They will be interested that they are employing the estranged father of one of their pupils. They will be interested that she has never met him and doesn't know him and you are concerned.

You can tell them that the relationship was violent. You don't have to ask to have hi sacked but why should you not tell them?

I am sorry, this must be really shocking for you at the moment.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 08-Feb-13 08:26:05

The head won't think you are some mad ex, she will be able to see your genuine upset and concern about this situation.

You don't know yet what the head can and can't do, but she does have a duty to safeguard your child, and she can't do that without the relevant information. Take the paperwork you have with you that confirms you changed your dds name. That will be enough proof to show that there was an issue. Anyway, what the head thinks about you personally is irrelevant. She will have to deal with the situation as its presented to her.

BalloonSlayer Fri 08-Feb-13 08:28:14

Well one bit of evidence you have is your Dr's appointment the morning after he shook her. That will surely be on her records as something like: "Mother worried as father shook baby last night. Father has left home. Police called. Baby checked and fine" and the HV will have been informed.

I reckon if you think about it there will be more evidence to back you up than you think. The letter to the Deed Poll people, for example.

The head will know that DV can be difficult to prove. But if you can show him/her that this is something that was documented when DD was a baby he/she will know that you are not making it up on the spot out of spite.

I very much doubt that he had the presence of mind to approach the head last night. You said in your OP he looked terrified, he was probably as flustered as you. You need to get in there first.

Lovelygoldboots Fri 08-Feb-13 08:32:35

See the head. Any decent head teacher is going to take this seriously. I am so sorry you are going through this. There is no way the head is going to brush you off as a mad woman. If your daughter is somehow at risk then the head has powers to intervene as your daughter is on school premises.

aufaniae Fri 08-Feb-13 09:10:26

ScaryWary please don't base your actions on the minority view of mosman! Almost everyone here is saying speak to the head.

From my limited experience of mosman on these boards s/he can be pretty harsh / judgemental IMO. His / her comment on this thread made my blood boil actually!

No decent head will see you as unhinged for trying to protect your child. Abuse of women by their partners is very common indeed. If you were planning on telling the head your ex was an alien / part of a government conspiracy, then yes you'd look deranged!

For the head to hear that your ex was abusive to you is (sadly) not something uncommon. Any decent head would want to hear this.

aufaniae Fri 08-Feb-13 09:14:34

Echoing Lovelygoldboots there as it's an important point! smile

The school need to know, as mentioned above as:

- how can they can properly support your DD when she asks about why she can't go to the club if they don't know the full story?

- it can't hurt to tell them. Think about it, the worst you are worrying about is that they think you a but odd (and seriously does that matter really?!). But they may well be able to do things to protect you from this man if they know. The potential consequences of them not knowing are much worse than them knowing.

- they need to know if your ex tries to get hold of your details, that it's inappropriate. It's your data, and you need to take steps to protect it

They can't help you if you don't help yourself! You need to take action.

Why not show the head this thread?

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 09:34:10

The OP didn't say at first the "father" was on the BC which rather changes things.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 09:36:43

We have personal experience in our family of head teachers being told a pack of lies by one parent against the other and rightly the head said well great if you can just show me the evidence of this i'll gladly ban them from the premise etc etc. Sobbing and looking distressed mothers doesn't cut it. Obviously they couldn't - which is the situation the OP finds herself in.

Yfronts Fri 08-Feb-13 09:38:36

Firstly the school has to be made aware of the situation. They have a duty of care and cannot care for your child properly if you withhold the information.

Withdraw your DD from the sessions and find something better. Your DD will adjust after the disappointment.

Keep it factual when telling the school. Ex was abusive to you and DD (as a baby). Under no circumstances do you want them to have anything to do with each other.

Also it is possible that he will take on more and more roles with in the school - dinner person/crossing warden/supporting young readers etc. The head needs to know

Yfronts Fri 08-Feb-13 09:47:26

The head will not treat you like a mad woman. Domestic violence is a fact of life and by not telling the head, you are failing to protect your DD.

I expect your ex is laying low hoping things will pass without fuss. I expect he hasn't mentioned anything to the council/head.

Just be factual. Write a letter stating everything in a calm way and then have a short follow up meeting about how to move forward. Enable the school to protect your DD.

Yfronts Fri 08-Feb-13 09:50:33

Mosman, if a school is informed but doesn't protect a child, they would be 100% responsible if something happened at a later date as a result of their negligence.

DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker Fri 08-Feb-13 09:51:06

You do need to tell the head OP. Not in a 'he's a twat and I don't want him near my child way' but in a calm, 'this is what happened and you'll understand my concerns' way. And they will understand.

You must do this. He has parental responsibility and that can open a whole can of worms for you.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 09:51:11

Mosman has a fair point. CRB checks dont mean a lot. Someone can have a clear CRB check because they haven't got caught yet, and the CRB is pretty much not valid from the moment it is printed, because it doesn't account for what someone may do in the future.
The head may be limited in what he or she can do, but I would go and talk it over with them anyway. I would assume they could stop this gym club coming on to the premises, if they wanted to. Whether they do or not is another matter. It depends on how seriously the head teacher takes this.
What I would be more concerned about is this man having your dd's personal details, and for that reason alone I would be going to the headmaster to try and figure out a solution.

manicbmc Fri 08-Feb-13 09:53:17

Just the fact that he is an absent parent (evidence being that your dd has no idea that he's her dad) is going to show them that something is not right.

You really need to speak to the head as it is a safe guarding issue.

aufaniae Fri 08-Feb-13 09:54:47

Mosman she's not saying she'll go in "sobbing and distressed-looking", or making demands, she's just asking if she should inform the head.

"The OP didn't say at first the "father" was on the BC which rather changes things."

Do also agree now that the OP should talk to the head? (Note, I said talk to, not go in all guns blazing.)

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 09:55:40

Just the fact that he is an absent parent (evidence being that your dd has no idea that he's her dad) is going to show them that something is not right.

This is true. Plan what you are going to say carefully so nothing is missed, and back it up in writing.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 10:07:28

Just try and look objectively, OP i'm not saying I don't believe you but others were suggesting the "evidence" would be an upset mother, well no head teachers see plenty of those.

If he is on the BC then yes I would mention to the head that he is her father but doesn't know her because I believe - happy to be corrected that in the absence of a court order this guy can take her from the school and the school can't stop him but could alert the OP immediately or try to delay until she arrived.

kalidanger Fri 08-Feb-13 10:13:31

You could talk to the head and be extremely reasonable. Say "He's my DDs father but hasn't seen her since he abused her when she was a week old. We went to the GP [the head will then realise this means there's an official record without you having yo be specific] Therefore I'm taking her out if the after school club. I'd appreciate it if you could remove any of my contact details from the lists given to the people running the club"

Any Head/person with a brain will understand what you're saying, plus be watching him with a jaundiced eye.

DeWe Fri 08-Feb-13 10:22:29

I think even if you said he was a great father but dd has no knowledge that he is, then the head would still want to know. Whether they can request he doesn't come to the afterschool club I wouldn't know.

I would go in, stick to the facts: He is the father, there was domestic abuse and physical abuse of her at a week old so you didn't chase him for maintenance when he walked out, you changed her name, he recognised her only when he saw you.

That way if he comes to the head and asks, they are ready. But, on the basis he looked terrified, it may mean he has turned his life around, possible has another family, and may be not wanting anything to do with you.

I would also have something ready to say in the unlikely event that he says something, say to another parent, and it gets back to your dd. Just in case she comes and says "XX at school says that YY's my dad". It would be better to have decided whether you say "yes, but he's not very nice", or say " no, he's not".

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Fri 08-Feb-13 10:27:12

I think you have to say something to the head. If you do nothing it will torment you. I don't know what the head will do with the info but it's a starting point. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.

GreatUncleEddie Fri 08-Feb-13 10:29:46

What's really odd is that to run a club like this he would have had an enhanced CRB check. So even though he has no convictions, the information that the police should have had would have come up. That's the point of the enhanced ones.

ISeeSmallPeople Fri 08-Feb-13 10:33:50

I'd talk to your daughter's GP first.
Ask for copies of any evidence they have, so you can take it to the Head when you speak to them.

Then find the police reports. Do you have a copy of anything? Even an incident number?

And a copy of the letter you sent to the Deed Poll people about changing her name.

Then, with whatever evidence you have, I'd talk to the Head. Just so they know. I don't expect them to be able to do much, but I'd want it on record that you do not want your daughter put in any situation with this man.

However, if I were in your position, I'd also consider moving. I wouldn't want the stress hanging over me that he works for the local LA or council, and there may be many other situations where you find yourself bumping into him.

ScaryWary Fri 08-Feb-13 10:38:44

Oh dear. Just had the morning from hell. Totally went around this the wrong way.

Was five minutes late with dd this morning so had to take her in via the main entrance. Guess who was there.

Ex and his colleagues, dressed in their work clothes, setting up gym equipment in the main hall.

I signed dd in at reception and asked the office lady why the sports club were there again.

Apparently the infants are having an exercise and healthy eating workshop with the club this morning. DD supposedly was sent home with an info letter about it yesterday, but didn't give me it.

Office lady was getting shirty about dd being late, so i let her go to class. I stayed and asked to speak to the Head. But i was told she's on a course. So i had to wait til half 9 to see the depute (who i cannot stand! She's very old fashioned/perfectionist - openly told me at dd's enrollment that she didn't know what autism was and said kids with SEN would cope better in special schools).

I told the depute that i realised yesterday that dd's 'father' is running the sports club. I explained i wasn't happy about this as he has previously been violent to both me and dd.

She said, "I can assure you Miss ScaryWary, we wouldn't allow anyone into the school without the relevent checks.'

I explained no charges were pressed due to no witnesses. She just smiled and gave me a little patronising look. Again repeating that they wouldn't let anyone into the school without checking them first.

She said, 'So what do you want me to do? The infants will all be going to the gym hall in ten minutes for the workshop. Would you rather dd remained behind at class?" She then gave a hefty sigh! 'Hmm, that might cause issues due to her... temper.'

I said that i understood. And i'd be happy to wait in the class with dd to keep her calm. Then she said she couldn't allow that because i don't have a Disclosure! (Scottish equivalent to CRB).

So we sort of sat there in awkward silence for a moment, with her looking at her watch. She then said 'why don't we just carry on as normal, i'll keep an extra eye on dd, and we'll sort it properly when Mrs Head Teacher comes back?'

So i sort of agreed, feeling totally stupid, like i'd overreacted. I then mentioned my fear about him having PR - equal rights to me - just like Mosman has talked about. She then just gave a little nod and said, 'well, he is her father...' She noticed me getting upset, so she quickly said 'Let's just wait on Mrs Head teacher coming back, okay? Now i really have to get on, the infants will be going to the hall just now.'

I left, feeling quite numb. Sneaked a peek in the gym hall on my way out. The kids were all in there (couldn't see dd, but i'm sure she was there as i could see some classmates and her teacher). Ex was standing at the front of the hall with two other sports coaches, leading the children in a silly warm up dance routine. He was laughing and smiling, looking totally carefree.

I just can't get my head round this. My parents are off on holiday for a week. I have friends coming round for dinner after work later. But i can't see what use they'll be. They just get angry and call him names whenever i mention him, nothing useful.

I feel so powerless! I have no idea what's going on with them this morning. Like Mosman says, he has PR. Automatically has the same rights as me. I have no residence order - nothing court related - so he could simply pick her up from school at hometime, and take her to his house house to stay if he liked! This was my fear when she started school. I saw a lawyer about it back then because i was so paranoid it would happen, and he advised me there was no point pursuing it because ex was absent. It would have been a waste of money.

I can't stop shaking. The depute thinks i'm a loon, they're probably playing football or something right now. I just don't know what to do.

whattodoo Fri 08-Feb-13 10:39:16

Agree that you need to speak to the head so that school has a record of the issue.

DeepRedBetty Fri 08-Feb-13 10:40:52

Talk to head in the calm way described. Mosman is a poster who is very often not with the majority in her/his views.

ISeeSmallPeople Fri 08-Feb-13 10:42:26

Scary if the deputy is not taking you seriously I would go straight back to the school & take your daughter out until such time as you an have a sensible discussion with the Head.

DeepRedBetty Fri 08-Feb-13 10:43:18

oh shit xposted with your update. Bugger bugger bugger and I have to go to work now. Thinking of you, I'm sure some sensible kind advice will be alone v soon.

Agree with others that you need to tell the head - and as others have said, I think this should be the case even if it was a 'positive' split, & there was no history of DV.

It's important that they are aware that dd's estranged father is on the premises. In case he asks 'innocent' questions of other members of staff, or in case he tries to talk to your dd (although agree with others that is highly unlikely based on your comments to date).

And if you think he may have been to the head already (although I doubt that myself) isn't it even more important that they hear your side of the story?

If you don't feel you can talk about it without getting distressed (& I don't blame you), I would write the head a letter. Stating that you have removed your daughter from x after school club as it is being run by dd's estranged father. She has not had contact with him for over 5 years, and there were (reported) incidences of DV and child protection issues. You would therefore like your child carefully monitored when he is in the building.

Simple, to the point, protects your dd.

DeepRedBetty Fri 08-Feb-13 10:43:33


LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 10:43:45

Oh op. I'm sorry. Wait until the head gets back and thrash it out then. That women sounds like a complete cow, I'm fuming on your behalf.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 10:44:54

Scary if the deputy is not taking you seriously I would go straight back to the school & take your daughter out until such time as you an have a sensible discussion with the Head.

actually I think I would do this too.

ScaryWary Fri 08-Feb-13 10:46:07

Writing that out i've realised the depute was totally wrong, right? Not me?

Like you're saying, even if he was a saint, the fact it's dd's absent father should be highlighted. TBH i think the depute just went into panic mode. This workshop was all set up and ready to go, and she didn't know what to do. But she should have taken me seriously.

I have documents, but nothing substantial. All of it boils down to my word against his.

The letter to the Deed Poll people - how does anyone know what i have written in that letter is the truth?

Doctors records - again, just my word that ex shook dd. No marks.

Police - just my word. All i gave is a statement. Nothing happened after that. I don't think i was given a case number. I can't remember.

aufaniae Fri 08-Feb-13 10:46:37

I would speak to the head, and I would also be mentioning the Deputy's unprofessional manner in dealing with me.

On a separate note I'd be questioning how well this school provided for an autistic child if the Deputy feels fine to come out with that kind of rubbish about autism. How do you rate the school otherwise?

Oh, so sorry, x-post. How utterly, utterly awful for you - and school are (imo) handling this REALLY badly.
Don't be fobbed off by the deputy, talk to the head.

Write down what you have told us, tell the school that. I suspect that you can not ask for your daughters father not to work at the school. You can expect the school to safeguard her & remember that 'every child matters'. Ask them what they CAN do - they MUST appreciate that this is a difficult situation - what do they suggest?

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 10:47:41

You need to talk to the head, tell him you are pulling dd out of the group as she doesn't have contact with her father due to abusive relationship.
That your not asking for him to be sacked but you don't want him in contact with dd.

You need to let head know as often clubs start to set up in hall while school is still running, he also now knows your dd s school.

It will be on record at doctors.

RedHelenB Fri 08-Feb-13 10:49:11

An enhanced CRB check would show up any dealings with the police and that is what he will have had to have. There are other adults in the hall so your dd will be safe, particularly as the deputy is keeping an extra eye on her.

Look on the bright side - he could have changed & now enjoys being with children & your daughter could have some form of relationship with her dad.

sunny177 Fri 08-Feb-13 10:50:00

My god op sounds like a nightmare and the deputy was completely out of order. Yes he may be crb checked but we all need to remember that it will only show up convictions charges and not anything unreported. He's obv a very sly man and has managed to do things in such a way not to be charged in the past so obv he won't have a police record. I'm a teacher and urge you to speak o the head. Really stress how he treated you and dd in the past and history he has of violence. It may have been a while ago but you need to be taken seriously! Is there anyone that can go there with you? The head teacher really needs to hear this because not only is he having contact with your dd who you obv are concerned about but other children too and whatso say he won't loose it with one of them whilst no ones around. The school need to take this seriously and support you,! He may be a council employee but obv he shouldn't be if that is his true character. I hope you have better luck with the head but please see them and talk it over. Out it in writing too as they have to act on it then, also concerned bait deputy's attitude so stress that too.

Wish I could help more sad

pigletmania Fri 08-Feb-13 10:50:26

My goodness what a nightmare op sad. I would definitely take your dd out of that club and find another one. T is not in her best interests for her to be there whilst he is working there. I would just tell the head what you have mentioned here. I would never trust dd in his care alone. If he wanted contact h should go through te courts and it should be supervised in a contact centre

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 10:50:57

Sorry x post with a reply.
Go back and see head.
Deputy response is not good enough.

ISeeSmallPeople Fri 08-Feb-13 10:51:22

Are you at work, or can you go back now?
I'd take DD out, explaining to the Deputy that you are aghast at her unprofessional response. Arrange the very next appointment with the Head. And tell DD she's having the day off with you just because it's a lovely day. Go to the cinema, take her to McDonalds, don't stress her out about it.

Yes, the deputy was in the wrong. But, I wouldn't get into the bigger 'what ifs' with the school at this stage (what if he wants parental rights etc) - I would deal with the issue as it stands - ie he's in school, how will they protect her. The bigger issues (parental rights, whether you want to/can press charges at this stage) can wait. One step at a time....

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 10:52:39

Shes wrong. Not you. She should have taken your dd out of the class until a solution was reached with the head.

Write an itinary of everything that happened with ex, the episodes of violence, police, deedpole etc in date order. You may not have enough proof that it did happen, but head can't prove that it didn't either. And its obvious there is a problem. Tell the head its a safeguarding issue, and you want to know what steps are going to be taken in school, and out. Because you ex having access to personal data could also put your dd at risk out of school. And put it a conplaint about tge deputy in writing too, whilst you are about it.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 10:53:01


ScaryWary Fri 08-Feb-13 10:54:29

It's only on until 11am. So will be finishing round about now. I'm in tears. I feel so useless, and feel like i've lost my dd.

Do you think i should have taken her from school? Argh, why did i let the depute brush me off so easily?

I know that if he ever wanted to have contact with dd, she'd go off with him without a second thought. She is so in love with the idea of having a dad. I feel so sick. How can this even be allowed?

pigletmania Fri 08-Feb-13 10:54:53

Just read your update, I most defintely go to a solicitor and seek legal advice now he is on the scene. Go to CAB as well

kalidanger Fri 08-Feb-13 10:56:05

You can whisk your baby out of school today and have the weekend to think about this. She doesn't have to be there. You're get mother and can go and take her home.

Might a session with a family law solicitor help clarify things? I think proper advice is the way to go.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 10:56:28

I have documents, but nothing substantial. All of it boils down to my word against his

and there lies your problem, when you're in the thick of these things you don't think getting that incident number, making sure the police follow up, asking the GP to make notes etc is important but it often is because without it what can you expect the school to actually do. He's CRB checked and you're not on paper you see the problem.

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 10:56:34

I think I would have turned round and taken dd home to be honest, not that I'm blaming you for not.

Even if there had been no violence, he hasn't had contact for many years and dd doesn't know who he is, things have to be handled sensitively.

My ex teachers sport and has little contact with dd, doesn't know where we live or what school and I dread this happening.

BreconBeBuggered Fri 08-Feb-13 10:59:12

Second getting independent advice. The depute sounds worse than useless. I might be inclined to go back to school in the meantime and remove DD for today, for your own peace of mind, and ask when the sports coaches are returning to her school. They need to take you seriously.

ScaryWary Fri 08-Feb-13 11:04:37

Yes i'm working from home just now, got a few customers coming and collecting things from now until hometime.

My fear is that i could ask for dd to be removed from the club (which is a huge issue if there are to be more of them like today taking place during school hours), and my ex could turn round and say 'i give my permission for dd to stay in the club.' That's why i'm seriously terrified. He has as much say into her life as i do! What's to stop him just going there and taking her out of school early?

I have to get to a lawyer. But i think that could do more harm than good. Ex won't like the fact i will have more 'rights' than him if i were to get a residence order. He'd try and get a contact order just to make it more equal. That's the type of person he is. Always has to be in power.

I can't belive he even went back there today! Is he seriously trying to act like nothing has happened? Just treating dd like any other child, hoping i'll not say anything?

I'm so confused. I wish i knew what he was thinking.

ISeeSmallPeople Fri 08-Feb-13 11:06:06

You are not useless, & you haven't lost her. She's your daughter & she has no idea who this man is. Even with PR, he couldn't just take her out of school, she doesn't know him!

It doesn't matter that she did this sports class today. Ideally, yes, you hit have felt better if you had taken her straight out, but the bitch deputy threw you.

Take her out now if you want to. Give her a big hug, & have a lovely weekend.

Make an appointment to see GP, solicitor and then Head from Monday, in that order. And I wouldn't send her back in until you've spoken to the Head.

MissAnnersley Fri 08-Feb-13 11:06:52

If you are in Scotland, in the absence of the head teacher and an unsatisfactory meeting with the Deputy Head, you should phone the Education Department and ask to speak to one of the managers. There should be someone available to take your call.

Thumbwitch Fri 08-Feb-13 11:07:03

I agree with the later posters - you need to get some legal advice ASAP. Your ex may continue to want nothing to do with your DD, but you can't be sure of that - so you need to have contingency plans in place, especially because she has the "dream father" thing going on.

I read your OP with my jaw hanging, going "Fuuuucccckkk!" in my head - your updates have done nothing to diminish that feeling.

And yes, I would be taking her out of the sports club and even considering taking her out of the school, the borough/town/Council district etc. that he covers (depending on how easy that would be with work restrictions etc.)

MissAnnersley Fri 08-Feb-13 11:08:14

Yes, I agree with the legal advice too.

Buzzardbird Fri 08-Feb-13 11:09:23

Could you speak to the Police for advise?

Surely their Child Protection department will be able to help you?

LadyFlumpalot Fri 08-Feb-13 11:09:52

If I were you, I would go get her home now and tell the school that she will not be going back until such time as the school take your concerns seriously.

On the one hand I want to tell you to give this guy a chance, he may have changed, he may regret his past actions. On the other hand I want to tell you to go grab your daughter and protect her for all you are worth.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 11:11:01

Can you talk to him? Find out where his head is. You are both adults. You may even be able to come to an agreement that he will not inform dd. I don't think you risk anything by talking to him directly.

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 11:11:33

What is the best thing for your DD?
Would being in such close contact with her father be in her best interests?
If the answer is no, the contact must be prevented.

The school MUST work with you to manage this.
I can understand your panic and distress.
You will have to be very strong and assertive. Write down what you want to say. Talk about the 'best interests' of your DD.
Use the word 'safeguarding' .
Ask about their safeguarding policies.

You are not a vengeful ex trying to keep a father from his beloved DD.
You are a mother who is trying to protect her child and herself from a man who has been abusive.

This is not the time to work out if he is a changed man. That can happen later if necessary.

Buzzardbird Fri 08-Feb-13 11:11:40

Agree with smallpeople. He couldn't take your DD out of school without your written permission anyway could he?

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 11:12:30

I would get to a solicitors and ask for an emergency court order, for sole custody/residency whatever they call it these days. About £4,000 I think, that'll be the best money you've ever spent.

RedHelenB Fri 08-Feb-13 11:13:03

You are jumping to all sorts of conclusions!

The most likely scenario is that your daughter has had a fun time doing this session & that's all. If he wanted contact with her surely he could have had it at any time in the last 4 years?

kalidanger Fri 08-Feb-13 11:13:40

Please don't be terrified of him. Get advice and know the legal position.

This is quite a Big Deal, darling. You can bring your DD home and cancel work stuff and clear today for planning and assessing the situation. You don't have to be brave and keep on keeping on and coping, because that's what you do because you've always done it. And fucking good for you. But you can HALT today and start getting this sorted to your satisfaction.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 11:16:44

Mosman no court order can stop this man from telling DD he is her father. Op needs to find out his intentions before going off and aggravating the situation. More to gain for OP if this man agrees on his own accord to leave DD alone. He may even be willing to sign over his parental rights so he will have no obligation to pay child support.

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 11:16:55

buzzard I was told by school if he turned up with proof of pr that they wouldn't stop him taking my dd but would ring me to tell me. sad

pigletmania Fri 08-Feb-13 11:17:00

I agree mossman but dident know what it was. He may try and get access nw he has seen her and you need to be prepared

BobbiFleckmann Fri 08-Feb-13 11:17:17

I have to say I would want to take a legal representative or at least another adult with me to the meeting with the head. Not only to signal to the Head how seriously you view the issue, but also to ensure that every single point is made in a rational way - this is a very emotional issue for you and if you're anythign like me, it will be extremely difficult to keep that out of the way so another person who can help you out if you get into emotional territory would be useful.

And what Mosman said.

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 11:18:35

Couldn't not wouldn't

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 11:19:47

OP - this is a big deal, but please do not be reactive without thinking. Order your steps with reason not emotion. Write out a best case/worst case scenario. List pros & cons. Do not make unfounded assumptions and then run off reacting. You cannot risk a mistake.

HappilyUnhinged Fri 08-Feb-13 11:23:28

I think one of the big problems here is that you are trying to work this out when you don't feel in control of where your DD is. Why not go to the school and bring her home right now? Then you can formulate any plan of action you want without worrying what's going on right now at the same time. Less stuff to juggle.

crunchbag Fri 08-Feb-13 11:24:29

How awful for you.

Ok take a deep breath and start thinking logically.

I would leave dd in school for now as she is safe there. Then phone the school and make an appointment to see the head on Monday. Use the weekend to think about what you want her to know and what you want to happen.

Phone around to make appointments for legal advice. Arm yourself with information.

If you are worried he will come to your house, phone the police non emergency number and ask for advice.

Be kind to yourself.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 08-Feb-13 11:24:42

Yes, I agree with Bobbi. Take someone with you to that meeting.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 11:25:22

He may even be willing to sign over his parental rights so he will have no obligation to pay child support

That can't happen.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 11:27:28

Really Mosman? If she wanted her new husband to adopt dd (for example), English law would not allow the bio father to relinquish his right?

shinybaubles Fri 08-Feb-13 11:28:32

Stay calm -I know easier said than done.
See the head today be factual about what you tell her. If possible record the meeting with her permission in case you have furture problems, etc. If she doesn't agree I would as soon as you get home summarise the entire meeting,and put it in a letter recorded delivery to her, thanking her for her assistance.
Then I would get legal advise - just advice so you know what your options are.
I would also think the time has come to decide what you tell your daughter as you want to be in charge of the information she is given.

Always get a written record on any conversation - in case it's needed. Never speak to her father, then there is no chance anything can be misuderstood twisted etc.

Stay strong.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 11:30:41

Correction: Scottish law (or would family-law be the same across the UK?)

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 11:31:09

Her husband adopting is a different scenario but you can't do deals with regards to parental responsibility and money and quite bloody right too. Can you imagine the potential for abuse, sign here or I'll take you to the cleaners says mother and new husband.

squeaver Fri 08-Feb-13 11:32:30

This is awful but once you start taking practical steps you WILL feel more in control of what's happening. So...

1. Make an appointment with the head, asap - today? As others have said, take someone else with you to that appointment.

2. Get some legal advice asap.

3. Your dd can't go back to the after-school club. You can make that happen. But make sure you speak to the head about what's going to happen in the school. Also, make sure you ask a lawyer about advice on this issue.

squeaver Fri 08-Feb-13 11:33:16

Sorry, meant to also say, if you're stuck looking for legal advice, the legal matters board on here might be a good place to start.

MissAnnersley Fri 08-Feb-13 11:34:06

Scottish law is different as is the school system and the way complaints and concerns are dealt with.

However, in a school, the priority should always be the safety of the child.

zipzap Fri 08-Feb-13 11:34:45

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

OhTheConfusion Fri 08-Feb-13 11:37:11

Legal advise is a must.

Also call your local authority and ask to speak to the Director of Education. Your ex is working for the local authority either directly or sub-contracting and they need to be aware of this situaion. The deputy head has not helped you in any way, they need to be aware of this also. Request that he is re-located to another school with immediate effect.

MissAnnersley Fri 08-Feb-13 11:38:39

Agreed OhtheConfusion although it is unlikely the OP will be able to speak to a Director of Education but one of the managers.

BigcatLittlecat Fri 08-Feb-13 11:40:13

This must be very distressing for you but you must remain calm and look after you and your daughter.
I teach and I cannot believe the reaction if the deputy. But for now there is nothing you can do about her. Is the head going to be back in school today? If she is try and get hold of her. The other option you have is you could contact the local authorities safeguarding officer. They usually have an excellent knowledge base and will be able to give you advice that is both practical and correct. Whilst a lot of advice on here is good you need to work in black and white.
We sometimes have these clubs in school and the staff can be very transient so may not stay around long.
It also sounds from his reaction that he doesn't know what to do so may do nothing. He hasn't done anything in the last five years!
Try to speak to someone today though so you don't worry all weekend. Take care.

RainyAfternoon Fri 08-Feb-13 11:40:23

I really feel for you. You need to try to make sure you are prepared for your meeting with the head, so you don't let them dismiss your concerns. I would try to get someone else along with me to the meeting as has been said.
I would also outline the situation and your cncerns on paper, like in your OP. take it with you to your meeting. That way you have something to refer to so won't miss out anything, also if you get emotional, you could just hand over your notes and your point will be made.
Good luck, and stay strong.

bigfuckoffpie Fri 08-Feb-13 11:41:35

OP, if you can't speak to the Head today, go the next rung up and call in to your local authority, to speak to someone in the education management team - the Director of Education or one of the senior managers (better to speak to them direct, but your local councillors can help if you're having trouble).

I'd just explain what you have here - you're worried that your ex will have access to your daughter's files. They need to be aware that there's an issue here, and it sounds like the Deputy Head hasn't taken it seriously.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 11:46:13

OP, one thing in your favor is that due to the name difference, your ex will have to prove he is the father on paper before he is allowed access to your dd. That will take him a few days to get the paperwork.

OhTheConfusion Fri 08-Feb-13 11:49:17

The Director is far more acessible than you would think (a member of the family is one) and they do take concerns seriously. In scotland if Director unavailable ask for the Chair (this person is a councilor but works hand in hand with Director).

Piecesofmyheart Fri 08-Feb-13 11:51:08

OP are you ok? Your head must be reeling with all of this. Follow your gut feelings-if you want to go and get your baby now then do that.
Give yourself some time over the weekend to think. And maybe guve Womens Aid a call ?
If he shows up at the house, ring the police. Don't hesitate. Its unlikely that he will but until you know what his motives may be keep yourselves safe.
Monday go and see the head and explain the situation. He would be mad to attempt to just take your dd out of school and they won't just let him!
Then also speak to a solicitor. It is a sad fact that even abusive fathers are given rights over their children so you need to be prepared if he does make contact.
Stay strong OP and maybe post again in lone parents where there are always people who have been through and are going through similar.

flurp Fri 08-Feb-13 11:55:31

This might sound loopy but rather than second guessing his intentions and reacting to what he might do, could you (or a friend) actually speak to him and ask him what he plans doing? Maybe let him know that DD is autistic (to put him off??) and that don't want contact.
For all you know he might not want any involvement in her life - after all he hasn't tried to until now.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 08-Feb-13 12:00:02

Go to school early at pick up time today and make sure the secretary has a meeting booked in with you first thing on Monday morning.

If there is anyone at school, like another mum from your dds class, ask if they can watch your dd for a couple of minutes so that you can speak to the class teacher with some privacy. Then tell her the situation briefly. She doesn't need details, just tell her that this man is your child's estranged father and that you're worried about what's going to happen next.

She will be able to keep an extra eye on your dd, will know not to let her go to anyone other than you at the end of the day, and she will appreciate being told what's going on by you. It can be frustrating for teachers who are trying to do their best for children in their care when they are left out of the loop because parents go directly to the head. I do think you need to speak to the head obviously, but it will be best to let the class teacher know what's going on. After all, she is the one that has the most contact with your dd, and it is likely that she will be present in the school time sport sessions, or at least her TA will be.

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 12:02:08

You have to look at these things from a legal standpoint not an emotive one. Then once you have identified the possible legal risk, your take steps to block the gaps.

The situation is a whole lot of what ifs.

The DepH is bound by the law, if there is no court order in place and the father has PR then she is bound to facilitate that if requested.

There is no prosection for violence against the father.

As for the birth certificate comment, if he so chose, he could get one online in 30 seconds. The Op has already validated by her conversation with the DepH that he is the father and has PR.

He has PR, he has rights, if he chooses to exercise them - which is probably unlikely. On the other hand he has chosen to work with children, tehrefore he must 'like' them somewhat. Perhaps he's grown up a bit?

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 12:02:26

That's what I was saying flurp. This is too important an issue to just run around like your hair is on fire. OP must gather the courage to have an adult conversation with her ex. Document the conversation. Then, if you cannot agree or if he fails to uphold your agreement, take the next step. Legal advice is a must. -But, at this stage, only so that OP knows her options.

SocialClimber Fri 08-Feb-13 12:04:25

Get her out of the after school club. It may have been the making of her, but you can't think about that. Get her involved in something else after school instead.

If he has no other part to play in school life then that's what I would do. Maybe speak to the head and say no one else is to take her out of school apart from you.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 12:07:31

Thanks for the correction HollyBerryBush. I do find it strange that birth records in Scotland can be downloaded from the internet by anyone in a jiffy. In the States, you must prove a privileged relationship to obtain a copy. And then it costs money because it is an official governmental document. If anyone could get an American birth certificate in the US, they could use it for mischief (fake identity, citizenship, etc)

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 12:10:58

Here such documents are a matter of public record - anyone can access anyones details.

Geneology is big business!

Going O/T there has been a big screed in our press lately about the police assuming identies of dead children to infiltrate chat rooms. Caused some outrage, but if you need a bone fide ID to prevent harm to others then its also as you say, open to abuse by fraudsters.

blackeyedsusan Fri 08-Feb-13 12:15:37

can you get emergency residency from the court this afternoon? th means that he has to give he back... ing omens aid... look on the reltionships board for details.

WilsonFrickett Fri 08-Feb-13 12:28:13

Even with PR, the school don't know him, your DD doesn't know him, they have different names. School will not allow a stranger to walk away with your child, even if he does say he's her father. There were people with PR at DS school who were not allowed access to their own kids, schools are used to this sort of situation and won't just hand DD off.

So please, take a breath, centre yourself and make a list of what you need to do next.

Appt with HT on Monday. You also need to get your contact details back from the club, she can do that.
Solicitor after that. What are your rights? Talk to him about restraining orders - if X can't be within 20 feet of DD then he can't be in her school for example.
I would also go and see GP about records of the shaking incident but that's possibly less urgent.

Stay calm, don't think about the worst case scenario, focus on what you can do to keep you both safe. Best of luck.

Mosman Fri 08-Feb-13 12:29:06

There'd have to be grounds like a real threat of kidnapping to get an emergency order this afternoon, lets not whip the poor OP up into a complete frenzy.

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 12:31:52

Take a look at this OP, should allay your fears somewhat. Certainly beats all the hypothesis on this thread!

dixiechick1975 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:53:01

I'd echo the posts to say get proper specialist family law advice from a solicitor today. or may help you find a specialist nearby.

I wouldn't speak to him at this stage.

When you see the head ask what has been disclosed to him re your dd. risk assessments will have been done for the activity. I would assume some sen info would have been disclosed so activity could be accessible to all.

You are reeling but don't assume he isn't.

If he has lied to get crb or even if not he will be panicking his job could be at risk.

Worse than that he knows nothing about dd or her diagnosis. He may be thinking she is brain injured due to shaken baby syndrome and the police will arrest him now you have tracked him down.

stubbornstains Fri 08-Feb-13 12:54:18

Hi OP,

By coincidence something similar has happened to me today- DS's father, who hasn't seen him since he was 4 weeks old, has turned up at preschool.

He has evidently befriended some other parents, and was dropping their kids off. This is typical behaviour for him- he will worm his way into other peoples' family setups to gain legitimacy as a "good guy".

I'm going into pre-school early to talk to the head and, because we've had issues with him before, and I've had to explain the situation to her before, I am confident that she will be supportive (and hopefully ban him from the premises).

But I know exactly how you feel-trembling, shaky, feeling that no one will believe you. It's a classic after effect of emotional abuse. They will believe you. They will. WE believe you. (Saying that, I think that deputy head should be strung up. Appalling).

There is one absolutely glaring piece of evidence that this man is no good, despite all the community work and CRB checks in the world. And that is that he has not seen his daughter for five years. That counts for a lot.

So...good luck OP! I'll be thinking of you...and wish me luck too!

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 12:57:19

OP's concerns can be grouped into three categories:

Immediate: Is DD safe today? ---
You are already on the right path by alerting the school admin. I think DD will be safe, as the school administrator has shad that she will keep her eye on DD. The ex will seem odd if he starts having a private conversation with on of the children.

Intermediate: Will DD be safe on an ongoing basis if the ex has reason to come into contact with DD? Will the ex tell DD that he is the father? Will the ex try to involve himself if DD's life. --
The first step toward resolution is to determine the ex's current situation and state of mind. Is he married? Does he have other children? Does he want a relationship with DD? Is he bitter, vindictive and a potential harm to you and DD? What you learn will help you order your next steps. You should not take actions that bring harm to the ex's reputation/livelihood if it's not necessary for protection of your DD.

_Long Term_: What is OP to do about the ex and his role in DD's life? Should DD ever know about the ex as her bio father? Has the ex changed and become worth of seeing DD? Or the opposite, is the ex the same horrid man and OP should seek permanent resolution so the DD never has to deal with the ex on any level.--
This is the hardest part. If the worst case scenario emerges (ex is horrid and wants contact), you may have to move to minimize contact. You will need a legal representation to get a custody agreement filed in court. If the best scenario emerges (ex has changed and is willing to dance to your tune with respect to DD's best interests), you will still need legal representation to have a custody agreement filed in court.

TranceDaemon Fri 08-Feb-13 12:59:28

What a horrible shock. OP be careful how you approach the school, a decent head would want to know, but are they a decent head? When my ex assaulted me on police advice I left and went to stay to my sisters 20 miles away and was concerned that my ex may try to snatch my dd. When I approached her (the head) she said it was my word against his and unless he had been convicted there was no evidence and that he had just as many rights as I did. shock

Same head did a similar thing to my friend - who had actually turned up at school black and blue on more than one occasion.

So be very careful how to do it. Is there a teacher you get on well with you can approach first? Do your research first and try to get evidence, the doctor and deed poll letter may be good to get hold of.

Also just start looking for a different club and if you are in any way concerned ring the police 101 number and tell them.

TranceDaemon Fri 08-Feb-13 13:21:12

Massive x-post. Get legal advice and contact Women's Aid OP. I'd definitely take her out of the club and even the school if they won't listen to you. Right now take some deep breaths and take action, make some calls to the above and see where you stand. Trust yourself, you kept your DD safe from him before you can do it again. Get support around you today. And have a hug, you're going to sort it and you're stronger than you think.

Thumbwitch Fri 08-Feb-13 13:35:41

Scary - you say that your ex would try and get a contact order if you tried to get your situation legalised (residence etc.) - why? He's done fuck all for the last 5 years, has he not known where you are in all that time? I'm not suggesting that you're necessarily wrong, just worried that you might be panicking for no real reason over that point.

Also - if you have evidence that his and his mother's behaviour towards the autistic brother/son was abusive, this may be useful in your case - when you see the solicitor, do mention it to them as well, because it could constitute a legitimate fear for your DD's safety if she were made to have contact with her father and/or grandmother (assuming she's still alive, of course).

Sorry only had time to read half the thread as baby I care for just waking up but this website may be able to help

JoanByers Fri 08-Feb-13 13:41:09

It sounds like you can't really do anything about his presence, it would be unreasonable for the school to kick him out on your say-so, you might be a vindictive ex with an axe to grind, they don't know.

tinkerbelle31 Fri 08-Feb-13 14:11:34

The deputy sounds horrific I would be making a complaint about her,
I agree with majority of people you need to speak to the head,
I would also get a residency order asap just for peace of mind.
I would also remove my child from school until you can speak to the head as you believe the school is not doing what is in the best intrest of your dd and i would say this when you were collecting her.
If this doesnt get resolved soon you will have melt down.

p.s. I dont know how you didnt say anything to him I couldnt bite my toungue so well done for that bit

tinkerbelle31 Fri 08-Feb-13 14:16:46

I had the worry of my ex taking my ds2 out of school as he had previously refused to return him to my care had to go to court an get an emergency residency order just for him to be returned I kept in touch with the school though all this and when I asked if they would not allow my son to be picked up by his dad they said there wasnt anything she could do but she would hold him up in the class room with distractions while they contact me i live over road from the school luckily,
I really hope every thing works out for you and your dd

cestlavielife Fri 08-Feb-13 14:36:31

the contact was supervised - so long as head and teachers are aware and asked not to let dd go off with him in view of the fact he has been out of her life for five years, then that should be enough for now. he is a stranger to her right now. keep telling them that. stick to basic facts.

you need to establish if he does have plans to make contact. if so - given the long gap - then you can rightly ask for supervised contact at a contact centre until she knows him better,

yes he has pr but so do you and he hasn't been around - you can decide n contact or not. if he wants contact - offer contact centre.

he doesnt need to have lied for CRB - if it came up as an allegation five years ago then what impact would it have had on choosing him for a job? realistically.
no conviction was made.

why would he not turn up? it is his job, like it or not...

op maybe you have to make contact perhaps thru a solicitor to ascertain his intentions vis a vis your dd. keep reiterating to the teachers and head that he is a stranger to your DD, hasnt seen her for five years; and given her autism she should not at this stage be made aware of who he is, nor should he be allowed to take her off anywhere alone.

Inertia Fri 08-Feb-13 14:36:50

I think you need legal advice , so that you can get clear answers about how to protect your daughter in a legally watertight way.

Even though police did not press charges, is there a record that you reported it to the police?

In your shoes, I would consider writing to the Headteacher - keep a copy- explaining that there is a safeguarding issue around your daughter having contact with this man. Explain that when she was a baby he was violent to you and behaved violently towards her by shaking her; you reported this to the police (giving any reference numbers if you have them) but were advised that there was insufficient evidence to press charges. Just give facts. This means that there is a written record that you have reported a possible threat to your child's safety.

This man is probably terrified about what you are going to say. Given that he appeared shocked to see you, it would seem unlikely that he's sought you out to gain access to your daughter. But now is the time to get something concrete in order legally.

SCOTCHandWRY Fri 08-Feb-13 14:37:22

As others have said, seek urgent legal advice, and act on it to safeguard your dd.

This man raped you (coercing and blackmail is exactly that, rape), been violent towards you and a newborn child - IMO it doesn't matter if he is a different/better person now, I hope he is for his own sake and the sake of others involved with him, but nothing changes what he did to you and your dd.

I hope you manage to resolve the situation quickly - I would be tempted to keep her out of school until you have discussed it with the ht - as you work from home you could look at home ed as a short or medium term solution.

Don't feel you have to PROVE anything, you don't, you can still act by moving schools - if he is employed by a council, he would only be going into school run by that council and in your situation id be thinking of moving council areas if I could - in some areas of Scotland that will be easier than others, it will depend on your location ( in my bit of Scotland I live in one council area, but another 2 areas are within 8 miles... I would be seaking legal advice to ensure he didn't get the name of he new school, and you should be looking very carefully at your online footprint - now he has seen your dd who knows what will be going through his head.

mirry2 Fri 08-Feb-13 14:41:52

OP lets put this in perspective. What evidence do you have that your ex is going to abduct your child or even start up a father/daughter relationship? You say he hasn't been in contact since she was a few days old. He has probably moved on in his life and may even have a settled relationship and other children. Until you have a conversation with him you won't know how he feels about your dd.
She does have a right to see her father if that's what they both want.

If you really don't want your dd to have anything to do with him you're going to have to take drastic action and move away. He hasn't been convicted of a criminal offence against you and has passed an advanced CRB check and works in a postion of responsibility.
You had some nasty experiences five years ago (I assume that's the approximate age of your child) but he may well addressed his poor anger managementand drinking habits since you last knew him.

TheSecondComing Fri 08-Feb-13 14:43:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ohmeohmy Fri 08-Feb-13 14:45:10

Legal advice available here

ohmeohmy Fri 08-Feb-13 14:46:16

If it hasn't been said already one of the school governors will have responsibility for safeguarding.

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 14:55:42

Can I just ask what a crb checks for because my exhs fiance just passed an advanced crb and she had seven children removed, four adopted to new parents and the other three put with family for severe neglect.

TheSecondComing Fri 08-Feb-13 14:58:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hissy Fri 08-Feb-13 15:00:18

This is terrible, I agree that your DD needs to kept out of school until you speak to the HT, and furthermore, seeing as there is no evidence of what and who he is, you need to move schools. ASAP.

Hissy Fri 08-Feb-13 15:04:47

"You had some nasty experiences five years ago (I assume that's the approximate age of your child) but he may well addressed his poor anger managementand drinking habits since you last knew him."

Can we just establish that domestic violence, as clearly described by the OP, is NOT an anger fecking management issue.

Let's stop the minimisation, denial and victim blaming right here and now.

DD has a right to protection from harm, or potential harm. I'll say that trumps the right to have contact with a Twat of the highest order, no matter his relationship to her.

VanCampsPorknBeans Fri 08-Feb-13 15:11:12

Hissy, the OP cannot just run. The disruption will not be good for dd - plus the problem will follow her. It's time to get the matter sorted. Get legal representation and then make some informed decisions. And talk to the ex about the matter in a public place (if afraid). The OP cannot change the fact that the ex is her dd's father. The OP will have to get tough and deal with him in an upfront manner.

captainmummy Fri 08-Feb-13 15:21:21

CRB checks are useless- they onlystate that the person does not have a criminal record (for as long as records were kept).
Ian Huntley had a clear CBR.sad

mirry2 Fri 08-Feb-13 15:30:13

Hissy - I am referring to the op's first post 'When dd was born, his anger problems worsened. I begged him to get help.'
I am not victim blaming. I am responding to the ops statement, so please don't get arsey with me.

squeaver Fri 08-Feb-13 16:07:47

CRB checks are now, in fact, called DBS checks. The new legislation was in response to the Huntley case.

Information here

WilsonFrickett Fri 08-Feb-13 16:23:15

It completely depends where the OP lives WRT to her changing schools. There are 6 primary schools within a reasonable commute of here, all of them are visited by the same sports activity club. Van is right - the issue has to be sorted once and for all.

Hissy Fri 08-Feb-13 17:39:00

I agree the situation needs sorting, poor OP's terrified though, it's so tangible as to feel it)

Referring to abuse as Anger Management issues is however something I will never agree on, and neither should it ever be referred to as such.

zipzap Fri 08-Feb-13 23:39:57

What a complete nightmare to find yourself in op - and then to find it compounded today by finding your xp at your dd's school. horrendous.

At least you spotted him last night - if she hadn't gone to the club yesterday and if you had been on time today, she might have seen him today at the school thing he was doing and you would have been none the wiser whereas he might have spotted you walking away from school or clicked that your dd was also his dd.

I think the others are right - it is worth telling the head teacher the basics of the background but also to put it a bit more strongly - that is to say that given the history of DV he already has against your child that not only do you want her kept away from him and not in any sessions or rooms that he is in, but you are explicitly stating that they have a duty of care to your dd and that you will hold her and the rest of the staff responsible if they do not comply with your requests to safeguard your child from her previous abuser. Strong terms to phrase it in - yes. But hopefully it will make the point and if you actively name people and make a paper trail which show that you have told them he has abused her in the past then should there ever be a problem in the future, they are not going to be able to pretend they didn't know anything about it. Likewise all the staff need to make sure that they don't let the cat out of the bag about

I would also talk to the police - see if they can give you a crime number from previously and see if it is too late to activate the claim or have it formally registered - at the time say you felt pressured not to as you explained here and see what they say. Also I believe you can get them to put a note against your address to say that there potentially might be problems and explain, so that if you call them, they will see that they need to get to you quickly rather than either dismiss you or think that they can get to your house tomorrow rather than right now.

A completely separate issue that hasn't been mentioned is how your dd is going to see her dad. At the moment he is a stranger to her - except now, he isn't. He's one of her teachers (albeit for a club, thank god he's not a full time teacher at the school) - one that runs the sports club she likes and that makes them all laugh and do fun sporty games, so probably a teacher that she will like and her friends will like.

Added to that - we tell young children that teachers are not strangers, they are safe people to go to or go with and that you always need to do what they say.

Except now - you need to find a way to explain to your dd that there is just one teacher that she shouldn't trust and shouldn't go with if he tells her to (unless the school do let her go to these sort of sessions regardless of your wishes, in which case she is going to have to do what she is told by him or get told off for being naughty etc). All of which means so many different levels of confusion for her - and potential for your dd to discover who her dad is whether intentionally or not - by you, your xp, members of staff etc etc

And finally - definitely complain about the deputy's atrocious handling of your complaint today. Given the seriousness of the accusations - she should have taken it very seriously. Last night your xp would have been taken by surprise, today he will have had a night to mull on it and so might have been tempted to do something rash like talk to your dd about who he was or heaven forbid, to take her away with him. Thank goodness - those didn't seem to happen from your post - but the thing is, the deputy had no way of knowing in advance if they would or wouldn't. She might have met him before and thought he was a nice man - doesn't matter. She needed to take your concerns so seriously because the timings meant that it was potentially a really risky time and she dismissed them. It's easy enough if things worked out ok to cut back and let the xp teach your dd again if you do manage to work things out or he gets a court order or whatever. But this is the critical time that if something had gone wrong, you wouldn't be able to change things. (sorry, hope that's clear). And by being in the class with him teaching, it's another opportunity for her to see him as the nice safe teacher and develop memories of him as that, rather than as her absentee abusing father. There's a reason to keep her away from him in lesson situations, you're not requesting this just for the heck of it!

Good luck op - sounds like you are going to have a horrible and busy few days ahead of you, but I hope you manage to get this resolved and to keep this man out of her life.

RedHelenB Sat 09-Feb-13 07:52:59

Are you saying that dd's daughter can't trust the deputy head ZipZap? Because actually that is a very wrong thing to say as anything of concern coming from a child would have to go to the relevant safeguarding person. Let's get some perspective, a supervised activity with multiple children & teachers present would be no danger to dd's daughter as she had said there would be no opportunity for him to speak to her on her own.

thefarmersintheden Sat 09-Feb-13 08:06:26

He forced you to have sex wit h him? sad sad

I'm so sorry, you sound like you have had a terrible experience. It is not too late to report him to the police, they are duty bound to investiagte an allegation of rape, no matter how old. Whether or not that is a road you feel you want to go down is a other thing.

zipzap Sat 09-Feb-13 11:20:56

No RedHelen sorry, not trying to say that the dd shouldn't trust the deputy head at all. apologies if that's what you thought I meant, dangers of typing when tired! When I was saying about telling the dd not to trust a teacher I meant the xp rather than the deputy head.

But tied in with that, I was trying to say that although there shouldn't be any chance for the xp to talk alone to the dd when in a supervised class session, (assuming the xp doesn't decide to announce it/mention it in passing when talking to the group - you hope that he wouldn't for the sake of his job but you never know) merely the fact that the dd is in the group with this man isn't good. Because the longer she is in the group, the more she will see the man in front of her as the rest of her classmates do - a nice, jolly teacher who runs a sports club that she likes, and therefore she is likely to see him as a nice, trustworthy man that she can depend on and somebody who is a safe adult.

If the xp does decide to get involved in her life, then the dd is already going to 'like' her daddy as she discovers that it's nice mr XX from school sports club, it's not a complete stranger that she's going to feel wary about meeting. She's going to wonder why her mummy kept her away from somebody who seems such a nice man and who everybody in her class likes and trusts. She's not going to see him with open eyes or realise what a monster he has been to her in the past.

If a teacher says to you 'your mum asked me to take you home today' then you tend to believe them - and with all the other teachers in the school if they said that to the dd then she would do what they say and go with them. However there is now one teacher (ie the xp) that the mum has got to tell the dd that she mustn't go with, even if the teacher tells her 'your mum asked me to take you home today' she must now say NO to. Or what happens if he is going around the class doing some 1 on 1 coaching - just for a moment or two for each child to get them to do something well - what happens when it is her turn? She's going to notice that she doesn't get a go (if the supervision is done well) or just that there's something hinkey regarding her and this teacher that there isn't for any other pupil and this teacher and that is going to get her asking why?

with regard to the deputy, I guess I was trying to say that she should have realised that in situations such as this, regardless of what she thought of the mother's claims or the xp, she had to take the mother's claims seriously there and then because she had no way of knowing if they were true or not. And the consequences of assuming they were not true unless proven otherwise (or even just until the head teacher was there) could be really serious and not undone - regardless of the fact that the xp was CRB checked. If they had all been false (and I don't think for a moment they were) then she would just have had to apologise to the xp for keeping a child out of his lesson. Much better than having to explain to the OP that they are sorry they didn't believe her but they do now because the xp has told her dd that he is her father or that the xp has taken her home with him!

Hopefully that's clearer...

LilQueenie Sat 09-Feb-13 11:29:05

report him get him out of there. Tell other parents whatever it takes. I would NOT be happy about him being there or you keeping quiet about this if my kid were attending. He shook your daughter he should not be working with kids. Anyone who said they would do nothing I hope to god you never commented on the baby P case.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 09-Feb-13 11:54:08

I am not an expert, but I would have thought the school/LA should take your accusations very seriously, and launch an investigation into your XP (and probably suspend him whilst taking place)

I'm pretty sure the deputy head can't just fob you off, this is a safeguarding issue, and there are concrete procedures in place if an accusation is made.

mirry2 Sat 09-Feb-13 12:09:09

Itsalloingtobefine- an investigation seems a sensible course of action, however what happens if they find nothing?

RedHelenB Sat 09-Feb-13 13:31:26

Oh ok I see what you mean zipzap.

Mazzledazzle Sat 09-Feb-13 14:24:35

Gosh what an awful situation to be in. Haven't read the whole thread, but you need to talk to either your daughter's teacher or head teacher - I work in a school and this is definitely something the school should be aware of.

Write it down and have the note in front of you if it helps, or talk over the phone. Explain that you don't expect any action to be taken against your ex, but you want them to be aware for your daughter's sake.

In Scotland, even if he has a clean record, if he has been questioned by police it will appear on an enhanced disclosure, which you must have to work in a school.

Or you could go to the police? The slightest wiff of trouble and most schools would suspend him immediately or try to transfer him.

Nightmare for you. Hugs.

Newyearoldmum Mon 11-Feb-13 19:32:45

Have you spoken to the head today? Hope you get this sorted.

zipzap Mon 11-Feb-13 20:38:30

Another one here who was wondering how today went - hope school took your worries seriously and have put some serious measures in place to allay them.

colditz Mon 11-Feb-13 20:48:57

Isn't it half term?

MrsDeVere Mon 11-Feb-13 21:23:25

Not here. Its next week.

Any update OP?

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now