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Found out DH watches porn - should I be this upset?

(102 Posts)
justkeeponsmiling Thu 31-Jan-13 00:02:25

Earlier on today, I stumbled across the evidence that DH watches porn online on our laptop. I confronted him (by text - I know it's bad but he was out) and he admitted it but we've not spoken about it since.
I feel so upset. I'm usually very open-minded - we have sex once or twice a week and I feel it's good quality sex, if u know what I mean. There's the occasional toys, we don't always switch the lights off... u get the drift. We have even watcged some films together, although this is quite a few years ago now!!!
I thought we were doing pretty well in that department - we've been together for 11 years and have three kids and both work.
In principle, I'm not against porn and it would never have bothered me if I had walked in on him masturbating, I would have just laughed it off.
But the thought that he sits downstairs masturbating over Cindy taking it hard from behind while I'm out to work or asleep upstairs really upsets me.
I thought I knew him and all of a sudden I realise I don't know him at all.
Also, I can't imagine having sex with him again - I bet he plays the clips over and over in his head while we do it, the thought makes me feel ill.
Am I being a hypocrite? I just feel really hurt and betrayed.

badinage Thu 31-Jan-13 01:26:41

There is no clash of values between being open-minded about sex and disliking porn. Sex and porn are completely different, so don't equate the two.

I find it an odd sort of relationship though where you can text your husband but not discuss the issue face to face when you see him later. What's that all about?

Your main worry seems to be that he's comparing the women to you and fantasising about what he's seen rather than concentrating on you and the sex you're having. I expect you'll get a load of posts telling you not to be silly, a few more demanding you confess to your own mind wanderings during sex and the usual batch of posters who confuse porn with masturbation and cannot imagine men wanking without it. You'll probably be urged to try watching it with him and you'll get the usual old bollocks about all men using porn, when trust me they do not.

So I'll just say that you're entitled to your feelings on this and don't let anyone tell you they are unreasonable or invalid. You're entitled to express them to your husband too.

If you don't want porn in your relationship, say so. If you've never told him that before and you've used porn yourself in the past, he probably thought you were okay with it. You're entitled to change your mind though. I just hope that he's honest enough to tell you whether he's going to carry on or stop doing something that upsets you, rather than continue in secret.

FWIW I hate porn and wouldn't want a relationship with a man who uses it, but for me it's because of the abuse in the porn industry, the way that women are degraded in porn and because in my experience, porn losers are absolutely shit lovers.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 31-Jan-13 07:46:55

"Am I being a hypocrite? "

No. But if you've never actually articulated that you don't approve of the use of porn, and if you've watched films together in the past etc then it would be unfair to expect him to know your views have changed. I think your ideas that he 'plays the clips over and over' sound like they stem from your own insecurity rather than reality. However, have a conversation with him, explain how you feel about it and I'm sure he'll offer to change.

HotDAMNlifeisgood Thu 31-Jan-13 08:13:20

every word badinage said.

You are completely entitled to be as upset as you want: your feelings are your own, and you have the right. Nothing and no-one gets to dictate how you feel about any issue. Now you just need to communicate this to your husband, and see whether he is prepared to respect your feelings.

Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 09:00:44

trust me they do not
Badinage how the hell do you know all men dont use porn? You are simply guessing. The arrogance of some people on this site is astounding.

Tuliprosa Thu 31-Jan-13 09:01:20

I love my DP dearly and our sex life couldn't be better, but yes - sometimes I do watch porn. I have an extremely high sex drive (especially for a woman, I suppose) and sometimes when DP can't be there I watch a video and by no means does he (nor I) consider it a betrayal.

I'm not comparing DP to the man, it's the act of sex that engages me, not the actors themselves - it's a healthy primal human urge in my opinion.

DP himself says videos do nothing for him. Occasionally if I'm not there he'll look at photographs (artistic, bondage style ones) because that's what floats his boat. I think it it became a frequent think, ie: doing it all the time when I was in the house and up for sex that would be a problem, as that spells out a rejection of me, as opposed to using it as a substitute when I'm not there.

Neither of us would dream of being unfaithful and I can honestly say that I never fantastise about anything I've seen in videos when I'm making love to DP - when we're together, it's about how it FEELS, not how things look!

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 31-Jan-13 09:02:15

By definition 'all' men don't use porn - just some of them. That's not an arrogant statement, surely?

Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 09:05:34

It is the whole post cogito - very patronising.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 31-Jan-13 09:16:20

You're not wrong there... smile

discophile Thu 31-Jan-13 09:28:08

badinage - excellent post. justkeep, you're going to need some honest conversations with your husband. Remember, you are entitled to your feelings.

Some men use porn, some don't. Some women use it, as well, and others don't.
You are entitled to your feelings and your point of view, and you need to chat to your H about it, but (as was said upthread) if he is not aware that you dislike porn then it's important not to behave as though he has committed a deliberate and terrible betrayal of you. He hasn't. His opinion on porn may differ from yours, and his feelings and opinions are as valid as yours, so listen to what he says and remember you are aiming for a compromise and an agreement that will make both of you happy.

sooperdooper Thu 31-Jan-13 10:26:35

I thin you're totally overreacting, lots of people like porn, it doesn't make him a bad person imo and to say you can't imagine having sex with him again is completely melodramatic, especially if you've watched it together - how on earth was he to know you didn't like it when you've watched it with him? confused

badinage Thu 31-Jan-13 12:39:04

It astounds me that posters will join a thread just to have a pop at another poster - but offer no advice at all to the OP. But it takes all sorts wink

It is by no means illogical to say that not all men use porn - clearly they don't. In the same way that not all men like butter or popcorn, or narrowly defined 'male hobbies' like cars, DIY or football.

Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 14:55:55

Your post to the OP is totally patronising. I felt it needed pointing out.
OP - most men use porn. It really is no big deal, end of.

anklebitersmum Thu 31-Jan-13 15:10:08

Maybe I'm way off the mark but I'm reading that it's not so much the porn as the fact that she feels he's sneaking about to watch it and hence feels undermined.

On that basis I'd be upset too and I'd be broaching the subject at the earliest opportunity.

Hi OP, apologies in advance, I'm on my phone and it will post this twice! Its not me trying to hammer my point across smile.

You are definitely entitled to feel upset and I personally think its important to sit down with your DH and talk this all through in a non confrontational way. Resentment is very corrosive to any relationship.

Just to share my experience, I caught my DH (then BF) having a tug to porn. I was 19 and very insecure and I completely flipped my stack. Was hurt and upset blah blah, we split up as a result. We got back together 4 years later, now married with a little boy. He still occasionally has a dally with 'Cindy' but now that I'm older (and hopefully a bit more secure) it really doesn't bother me.

I know I'd far rather him have a hand shandy to something on a computer monitor than go stick his cock in some one else.

Everyone will have different attitudes to porn, and as far as the abuse in porn as mentioned by a previous poster.. Well that's a completely separate thread.

I just think sitting down and discussing your feelings will help immensely.

Bloody phone making me out to be a liar!!

Bloody phone making me out to be a liar!!

badinage Thu 31-Jan-13 15:32:35

And I feel the need to point out that you're talking bollocks Bobby. You don't know 'most men' and so you can only say that most of the men that you know use porn, which (assuming that's true) is different.

I think telling an OP who asked for help that what she's concerned about is 'No Big Deal. End of.' is extremely unhelpful and hugely patronising.

PartTimeModel Thu 31-Jan-13 15:39:02

"most men use porn."
I do not believe ^ to be a true statement.

"It really is no big deal"
Clearly some people believe this, many others however don't and think its a big deal for many reasons.

OP I think feeling hurt & betrayed is a perfectly natural response. You are not a hypocrite. First step, sit down and tell him how you feel face to face.

bodencatalogue Thu 31-Jan-13 16:47:55

I don't think it's a case of should you be upset, you are upset, you've identified why so now you need to talk to your DH about it.

Despite all the naysayers here lots and lots and lots and lots of men view porn to varying degrees. Many, many, many men do this secretly with their wives completely and utterley oblivious to it.

Not interested in getting into an argument about it or whether porn is abhorrent or whatever else, I am not justifying it's existence. It's a fact, like it or not and pulleeze do not give me the "well it depends on the men that you know" argument. Yes of course there are men who are not interested in porn to any degree at all. But a huge number are interested, why do you think porn sites are the single most popular category on the internet?

Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 17:09:12

I'm trying to he helpful to OP by explaining that it isn't a big deal and is not a reflection on her if her partner wants to bash the bishop over porn. The alternative is arguably worst - ie he might use his imagination and think about an ex or somebody from work or whatever.
Badinage - the stats on website traffic are widely available, porn is still by far the webs most popular pastime.

Ooh, he might use his imagination! crikey! In what way is that 'arguably worst'?

OP, I'm sorry you're feeling down. Do have a conversation with him - and make your feelings clear.

itsahardlifegodfrey Thu 31-Jan-13 17:48:27

youporn streams 50 gigabytes of porn per second and this only one site

Clearly lots of people watch porn

Or some people watch a lot of porn.

BelaLugosisShed Thu 31-Jan-13 18:10:31

"Many, many, many men do this secretly with their wives completely and utterly oblivious to it."

I would think that the pertinent question to be asked about that statement
(which is probably sadly true) is why ?

Why, if it's no big deal to the men who use porn, if it's a harmless pastime, if there's nothing wrong with it, would they hide their porn-use from their wives?
Lots of women have posted on here over the years saying that they have absolutely no issue with porn use yet they still find out that their partner has been secretly using porn ( usually after saying that they have no interest in it) - that is something I genuinely don't understand.
How can you have a trusting, respectful relationship with someone who isn't honest?

Angelfootprints Thu 31-Jan-13 18:20:42

Op, I don't think there is any "should" about it. Nobody else in the world can tell you what your feelings ought to be.

Your feelings are what they are.

Personally I would feel the same as you do. I think you need to have a good talk and discuss what is and isn't appropriate regarding gaining sexual thrills outside your marriage in the future.

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 18:21:54

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DopamineHit Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:19

I suspect the vast majority of men use porn - I do and (almost) every bloke I've discussed it with does. If it's a hidden activity from a partner (and this is not always the case) that's because although we don't necessarily feel ashamed of it, it's not exactly something we're likely to brag about. We are aware that it is a slightly ridiculous thing to do.

For a bloke, using porn to wank has got almost nothing in common with having sex with a partner. It's an utterly different experience, a way of fulfilling an immediate need - much more like going for a run to burn off energy or maybe even snacking when you've got hunger pangs. Unless you've got a porn habit it's a fairly harmless pastime although I can totally understand that women may not always see it that way. If you have a good sex life with your partner then his use of porn should not need to ring alarm bells although, obviously, if it makes you unhappy then a frank discussion is probably in order. You will probably find such a discussion much less uncomfortable than maybe you fear. By the way - he won't be playing over clips in his head - it just doesn't work like that at all.

FWIW I think naughtythoughts suggestion is an excellent one.

sunnyday123 Thu 31-Jan-13 19:07:14

I understand you being upset but if everything else is otherwise fine I don't really think there's much you can do about it. You should of course tell him how you feel but id say its his choice if he enjoys it now and again! If it affects your own sex life etc thats different.

BelaLugosisShed Thu 31-Jan-13 21:17:52

How is naughtythoughts suggestion in any way helpful?
OP hasn't said they have problems in their sex life, she's described it as open and good quality - doesn't sound inhibited to me. I imagine mutual masturbation is a normal/regular part of most couples' sex lives, it's a bit difficult to have sex with someone without actually touching them wink .

What you've said about discussing masturbation and porn use makes little sense to me, how is it that someone is able to talk to other men about it yet not their sexual partner? You don't think some ( insecure) men would lie to friends about using porn due to it being so normalised, lest they are thought of as odd or not "real men" ?

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 22:18:48

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Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:33:04

Naughtythoughts - you remind me of that woman on meet the fockers - her married to dustin Hoffman's character lol

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 22:34:12

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naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 22:34:46

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naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 22:35:25

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Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:39:23

Lol, it's class isn't it.

AnyFucker Thu 31-Jan-13 22:39:29

I often find the people who talk about it the most are doing it the least

What on earth possesses someone to overshare to this degree on an open website ?

oh.....

wankers, that's it grin

Bobbybird40 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:41:46

Don't be nasty AF, no need.

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 22:43:48

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carmenelectra Thu 31-Jan-13 22:57:24

op, you can't help how you feel. I can understand the insecurity part of it as I think I'd be the same, imagining that he preferred other women. I'm sure that's not the case.

I sometimes watch porn with my dp and I certainly do not give anyone in it a second thought. I don't have an issue with porn and as I said we do watch it very occasionally. I'd be upset with deliberate secret use though. Or if it replaced actual sex.

dopamine, I find it odd that a man can chat about porn with his mates but not his wife who he actually has sex with. I'd be more woRried if my dp hid it from me and discussed it with mates.

naughtythoughts sounds nuts smile

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 23:00:39

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Angelfootprints Thu 31-Jan-13 23:14:58

The op hasnt asked for sex tips confused

Probably been scared off now.

AnyFucker Thu 31-Jan-13 23:21:07

naughtythoughts : "I'm maaaaad, me..."

yeah, course you are wink

DopamineHit Thu 31-Jan-13 23:21:18

BelaLugosisShed, Carmenelectra - there's talking and there's talking. I suppose in an ideal world if a bloke uses porn he should probably have "full disclosure" with his partner but if the subject never arises it's understandable that he doesn't volunteer the information. OP clearly feels hurt and betrayed by her discovery and has reassessed her sex life with DH in view of this and it has, quite understandably, made her feel very uncomfortable. I don't want to be an apologist for her DH - I'm just articulating the fact that there is a very good chance that his use of porn has nothing whatever to do with their sex life.

AnyFucker Thu 31-Jan-13 23:24:49

OP, I am sorry the oversharers trying to convince us how maaad and up-for-it they are have derailed your thread somewhat

I was going to type something very similar to what badinage said to you right at the beginning, but I won't. Read what she said, again. Then again.

Also, go have a look at all the threads in Relationships that start "I am ok with porn, but..."

You don't have to be ok with anything, it is entirely compulsory.

AnyFucker Thu 31-Jan-13 23:25:34

not compulsory smile

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 23:31:04

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naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 23:35:27

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AnyFucker Thu 31-Jan-13 23:42:18

anyfucker: just because you aren't getting any!

You've said that twice now. You must know me.

naughtythoughts Thu 31-Jan-13 23:46:38

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northeastofeden Thu 31-Jan-13 23:52:27

dopamine porn is not a harmless habit, a lot of women and men are harmed by porn. But that is not what this thread is about.

OP talk to your DH, be honest about how you feel and see what he says.

Now I really must go to bed.

AnyFucker Thu 31-Jan-13 23:53:16

Uncanny, how spot-on you are.

I wonder if you can guess what hand gesture I am making now.

badinage Fri 01-Feb-13 00:23:17

Is the inference in your posts naughty (which describe fairly ordinary sex IMO) that the OP's sex life needs improving and that this will reduce her partner's requirement to use porn? Otherwise I'm just not getting the relevance of your posts at all, especially as the OP appears to be content with her sex life and her partner has given no reason to suspect he feels differently.

But then for some reason, sex and attitudes to it are frequently confused with porn and attitudes to it, just like I said in my first post on the thread.

naughtythoughts Fri 01-Feb-13 00:25:34

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badinage Fri 01-Feb-13 00:35:18

Come on naughty

You're Philip Larkin in disguise aren't you?

Sexual intercourse began
In nineteen sixty-three
Which was rather late for me

Except 2013 doesn't scan quite so well, does it?

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 10:31:15

dopamine I'm not sure what you mean by 'full disclosure' with partner?!

Now I would not expect my dp to say that he had watched 10 min of X porn on X internet site. However, I would not be bothered if he now and again browsed a bit.

I think some people never seem to have this conversation ever and that's the issue. I have and do occasionally watch porn and he knows that I do find it a turn on. Therefore, he knows my views so its a non issue. He would be quite aware that it would not be ok if he only watched porn and didn't want sex with me.

Porn plays a miniscule part of our sex life. And as for dp watching it without me, well I would guess that makes up an even tinier part of it.

op I would imagine if your dh does fantasise over any of the porn he watches then its the act not the woman. I could not remember any person I have ever seen in a porn clip.

The thing is you are bothered by what's going on and you need to address this. Its no good eveyone saying 'oh its harmless, everyone watches it' as well as being untrue its not very helpful.

Dahlen Fri 01-Feb-13 10:49:31

I've never had an insecurity issue with porn. In my younger days, before I became aware of the level of abuse in the industry, I used to enjoy watching it myself. I think it's probably rather normal to get turned on by watching other people having sex.

However, I've made a conscious decision not to watch it anymore because getting my jollies off the back of other women's abuse is not something I can justify. Porn doesn't excite me enough to put the effort into finding some from an ethical source. Frankly, I'm too busy in life in general and in having RL sex. wink

It's a personal choice and others are entitled to theirs. I'm not evangelical about it. If asked for my opinion I give it, listen to and counter the opposing view, shrug, and then say each to their own. But I do judge people who think their own sexual gratification from watching porn is more important than the issues of abuse and trafficking in a lot of porn. If you're going to watch porn and defend it, at least have the integrity to know what you're doing, why, and form a coherent argument as to why that's ok rather than the usual, tired and untrue statement that "everyone does it and all the women like it." Take a leaf from SGB who at least knows what she's on about and can form a well-reasoned argument about the validity of porn even if it's not one that I agree with.

As for the argument that all men watch porn, well a surprising number don't and don't like it for the exact same reasons I've given above.

DopamineHit Fri 01-Feb-13 11:30:55

carmenelectra "full disclosure"? I just meant that they should be straightforward about the fact that they're using it, ie have the conversation - as you suggest. This would avoid situations such as what happened to the OP. However, it's also understandable that this conversation never happens because if a couple have a perfectly ok sex life and the bloke is an occasional user he's perhaps not that inclined to pipe up one day, "Oh, by the way ... I thought I'd better mention...."

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 11:49:35

dopamine I agree. I don't agree about couple has a good sex life and are presumabaly close, happy etc never mentioning it if he is a 'user'. Surely its those is unhappy relationships, bad sex that don't.

As always,on these threads I feel very confused that some couples don't communicate. Surely if you have been with a person for a long time, live with them then you would know their views on thinds and certainly know their sexual tastes?

Does the subject of porn never crop up I wonder, een if there may be something on TV or the newspaper that would spark a conversation?

Or do the women never ask presuming their man doesn't like porn? Or does the man lie and say he's not interested?

I like to know my dps opinion on things, surely its useful to be with someone with same morals?

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 11:51:08

Sorry typing on phone it doesn't make sense!

Bobbybird40 Fri 01-Feb-13 13:11:25

carmenelectra not every couple like to tell each other everything - each to their own surely?
Most blokes wouldnt want to reveal to their missis that they like to view porn now and again as, let's face it, it is a bit embarassing.
However, that doesnt mean it is some BIG secret. For many blokes, viewing a bit of porn is a minor deal - on a par, with say, going for a dump, a kind of bodily function.
The OP has said that their sex life is decent and things are okay in other ways. That, for me, should be the end of the matter.
Now, some posters on here are suggesting the OP should rock the boat but that is simply their own prejudices coming through - ie they dont like porn and what it stands for therefore the OP should kick up a fuss about her partner viewing it. But will the couple benefit if she takes their advice? Methinks not. In other words, then, said posters arent trying to help the OP - they are just trying to impose their moral standpoint on the OP and her partner. Which I think is pretty poor form tbh.
Oh and one other thing: naughtythoughts, your posts are funny as fuck.

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 14:47:10

Bobby I couldn't disagree more.

It shouldn't be embarrassing to talK of porn or sex unless you have something very strange to hide.

I do agree its no big deal in my relationship as have and do sometimes use it. Secret use is a big deal though. I'm not talking about being private, as in on your own, but secret.

And as for rocking the boat, I wouldn't be with someone where I couldn't speak up with something I didn't like.

HeyHoHereWeGo Fri 01-Feb-13 14:57:12

You know those recent cases where vulnerable girls, some in care homes, were targetted by gangs of men, sexually groomed, raped, passed around for years.
Remember how all right minded people though how putrageous that was?

Well take a girl from that beackground, give her 5 years, a mild drug habit, a useless boyfriend. Gibe her surgery on her genitals to remove most of her labia and also fake breasts.
Pop her in from of a camera and have sex with her in such a way that she in anally incontinent by the time shes in her 30s

That whats your DH has been watching.

YOu dont have to be ok.
You are an adult and if you are sickened, then you are worth way more than your DH imo.

HeyHoHereWeGo Fri 01-Feb-13 15:01:54

oops should have proof read that ...

MamaMary Fri 01-Feb-13 15:14:17

OP, your feelings are entirely valid. You need to talk to your DH about this and explain how it makes you feel. If he a decent right-minded sort he will stop using it.

Any thread on MN to do with porn tends to attract a tirade of 'porn apologists' who will tell you that you are unreasonable, it's harmless, and suck it up pardon the pun. It's not harmless.

RenataBiggs Fri 01-Feb-13 15:40:20

I love it when my DH watches porn. He comes up with all sorts of surprises in the bedroom. The OP shouldn't worry about it. She should encourage it.

What a curious post, Bobbi.

The op says she is 'upset' three times in her post. She says she feels hurt and betrayed.

You say, 'some posters on here are suggesting the OP should rock the boat but that is simply their own prejudices coming through - ie they dont like porn and what it stands for therefore the OP should kick up a fuss about her partner viewing it. But will the couple benefit if she takes their advice? Methinks not. In other words, then, said posters arent trying to help the OP - they are just trying to impose their moral standpoint on the OP and her partner. Which I think is pretty poor form tbh.'

What's your suggestion Bobbi? That although she is really upset and feels hurt and betrayed, she just shuts the fuck up? Better not rock the boat, eh Bobbi.

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 16:17:07

Whoah! heyho. Bit of an OTT response. You dont know that all porn is produced this way!!

What about amateur clips sent to youporn?

You also don't know what OP's dh has been watching. Your just presuming he watching trafficked girls being pounded anally. Jesus.

GoSuckEggs Fri 01-Feb-13 16:28:38

haha! spot on carmenelectra!

HeyHoHereWeGo Fri 01-Feb-13 16:42:17

And you've never heard of men putting up clips of the woman who just left them as revenge?

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 16:49:07

Yes I have heard of that, of course. Youporn has thousands of clips though. Surely you don't think all are by vengeful men or of pimped out girls.

That kind of attitude is as ridiculous as the idea everyone in porn or prostitution does it for the free sex with any ole fella, not the cash. There's some middle ground you know.

Dahlen Fri 01-Feb-13 16:56:38

Well ultimately, all this discussion is pointless. Anyone telling the OP she is being unreasonable to feel what she feels is being unreasonable themselves. People are entitled to feel whatever the hell they want.

The real question is not whether she's unreasonable to dislike porn (she isn't) but whether OP and her DH can find a mutually agreeable outcome or consider this a deal-breaker.

Either OP's DH will give it up for her now she's made it clear how much she hates it or he'll continue to watch it and she'll learn to live with it, or they'll split up.

I suppose she could continue to hate it and he does it anyway, but that to me doesn't sound like a relationship founded on similar values, trust and communication.

Smudging Fri 01-Feb-13 17:08:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 17:14:07

I'm not saying I agree smudging, but I doubt many people would give up porn 'just in case' someone has been coerced in some way. I'm sure any decent person would not watch if this could be proved in some way.

The fact is, people will always be turned on by others having sexm

AnyFucker Fri 01-Feb-13 17:52:02

Carmen, are you saying it has never been "proved" that there is coercion/abuse involved in the making of porn ? I don't mean all porn, I mean some porn.

But since you can't be sure which bits are coerced and which bits aren't, then you are in effect accepting that the person(s) on screen could have been abused but that it doesn't matter because you don't know which they are.

cronullansw Fri 01-Feb-13 19:24:45

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6709646/All-men-watch-porn-scientists-find.html

www.cleo.com.au/why-more-women-are-watching-porn.htm

People - of both genders - watch porn apparently. And as you used to watch it together, I'm surprised that you are surprised about him watching it now....

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 19:31:25

No anyfucker I'm not saying I don't care personally. I mean the regular user of porn probably are under the impression most pornstars are not coerced/abused. I guess any sane person would not watch if they knew a woman was being abused

AnyFucker Fri 01-Feb-13 20:11:53

Carmen, you have missed my point

But hey ho,, lots of people do

carmenelectra Fri 01-Feb-13 21:57:27

anyfucker didn't miss your point. Think you referring to fat that I said dp and I occasionally watch porn.

If that's what you meant then yes, I guess I am as guilty as anyone for turning a blind eye to the fact the women are not necessarily doing it of there own free will. However, this is really difficult I know, but I can't boycott all porn as i believe most is done without coercian.

AnyFucker Fri 01-Feb-13 22:06:20

"most"

how much of "most" is ok ?

50% of the participants are happy to be there, doing all the things they are expected to do satisfy the ever-escalating needs of the porn-consumers ?

75% ?

90% ?

99% ?

if only 1% are trafficked 15yo's from Eastern Europe who won't get a beating if they submit, is that OK ?

cronullansw Sun 03-Feb-13 00:23:02

AF - slightly off track here, but is your dislike of porn based solely upon the abuse of women, or are there other aspects of porn that influence your position?

I ask not to provoke a row, or derail this thread, but to try try to get a better understanding.

AnyFucker Sun 03-Feb-13 15:51:08

Cronulla many of our recent exchanges on here have ended in discord and there is certainly no love lost between our posting styles, so I would not consider it a productive use of my time to lay out in detail all my personally-held social and political objections to the rise of the pornified society.

However, I would like to direct you to a fairly gentle article written by Naomi Wolf some years ago now, that examines how porn not only damages women, but also men. Read it carefully with an ear for her nuanced views. She attacks no-one and has only understanding and sympathy for a society being damaged by the rise of "porn culture".

I would also bring your attention to the first "comment" at the end of her piece, which perfectly illustrates to me why women (and men) need to be vocal about this, and also why it makes me so fucking angry sometimes.

article here

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion about porn. In the OP's case, it sounds like she has never actually told her DH that she dislikes porn and would prefer him not to watch it - and that she has previously watched some porn films with him. Therefore it is not unreasonable for him to assume that she would be OK with him watching some in private. IE, he is not deliberately setting out to indulge himself in a way he knows his wife would be upset about. So when she talks to him and says 'I am unhappy that you watch porn because [her own reasons for not liking it']' then she needs not to make it too much of an attack on him. He may well say 'I'm sorry you're upset, I won't do it any more' and stop watching porn. Or he may feel that what he chooses to look at is his business and that she is not entitled to police his behaviour to this extent. Hopefully between them they will be able to reach an agreement that they are both happy with.

Oh, and just in a general way: I think some people get confused between 'most/all men watch porn' and 'most/all men have seen some porn'. I think most people have seen some porn at some point in their lives. That doesn't necessarily mean they liked it or they want to see any more. Though I would be a little bit hmm at someone who hates and objects to porn and has never, ever seen any.

Also, another way to look at this issue is: some people are vegetarians or vegans, and passionately believe that eating meat is wrong. How much of a right do such people have to forbid a partner or family member to eat meat, ever? If someone married to or living with a devout vegan chooses to eat meat while out of the house/away from the partner, should that be reasonable grounds for punishment or ending the relationship? I am not comfortable with the idea of anyone insisting on obedience from a partner when there is a disagreement over an issue and it is possible for the partner to indulge his/her (legal and regarded as acceptable by substantial numbers of people) preference without inconveniencing the other partner.

Abitwobblynow Mon 04-Feb-13 07:49:56

I was slightly surprised to hear Bobbi saying porn is no big deal.

Really? I am not at all surprised that OP feels hurt and betrayed. Regular use of porn is sexually acting out OUTSIDE the marriage bond. Private porn use IS a betrayal.

Porn does reduce women to objects. The fantasy of porn does increase narcissism (selfishness, self-absorbtion). Porn does impact on marital sex negatively.

If you look at that horrific case of the Ohio football team, where did those young adolescents get the scenario which they acted out? (kidnap, rape, anal rape, holding the unconscious girl from her hands and feet like a sack, the contemptuous treatment the whole way through to her dumping on her parent's lawn)

From their parents' relationship (the old way children got clues from how to relate to others)????? Really????

Keep kidding yourself that porn is no big deal, that from the ghastly Rhianna onwards, that women are not increasingly being portrayed as sexual objects there for men's benefit.

Bobbybird40 Mon 04-Feb-13 14:28:20

bitwobbly - if private porn use is a betrayal, is thinking of another woman when you have a wank also a betrayal? Surely the line is drawn in terms of betrayal or not if there is physically another person involved?
On the Ohio football team thing, do you really think that if those guys had never watched porn they would be actually be really nice blokes? I doubt it somehow. Moreover, if porn were to blame - or, rather, could act as a catalyst for - rape and sexual violence, wouldnt we have seen a signfiicant upturn in such violence since the advent of the internet. Without checking, I am fairly confident that we havent.
Like I say, it isnt a big deal - it is just people having sex in front of a camera.

badinage Mon 04-Feb-13 14:57:04

Seeing as all the recent studies show that the average age of first exposure to porn is 11, the porn pre-dates boys becoming blokes, nice or otherwise.
So yes, if you've grown up watching women being used as fuck toys devoid of the ability to feel physical pain, then it might affect how you treat women in real-life.

Since the early nineties, there has been a significant upturn in reports of sexual violence, with women's charities stating that actual reports are the tip of the iceberg as so much goes unreported, especially sexual violence within relationships.

What we can't yet prove is cause and effect, but we can have suspicions about it and refuse to engage with an industry that abuses women and depicts them being abused.

EuphemiaLennox Mon 04-Feb-13 15:14:52

Porns threads on MN are rarely helpful to the OP.

They invariably become an opportunity for the porn haters to air their views and restate all the evils of porn vs the porn is no big deal everyone does it you're just uptight brigade to have a bunfight.

I think SGB is speaking the most sense on this thread for the OP. In fact, strangely, I usually agree with SGB on most sex issue threads, despite being married monogamous and happy.

OP - I experienced a similar thing. Thought our sex life was good, thought I was open minded, watched porn together in past...and then discovered he was looking at porn on line, and got really upset.

I too felt it was inconsistent or illogical of me to feel this way, but it somehow felt seedy for him to do this alone as if this type of sex is secretly what he's into. Not sure if that make sense to you??

We talked about it. In fact we rowed about is because he did look at it again a few times after I'd told him I was upset, and then when he realised it was a big potentially serious issue between us he stopped. I think before this he viewed it as something harmless.

I think you have to talk to him, try to convey how it makes you feel and why. Listen to what he says, let him explain why he looks at it and how he views it, I suspect he'll think it's not a big deal and will be surprised that it is to you.

Then decide together what will work for the both of you. Do you want him to promise to never look at porn again? Can he live with that? Will you feel happy if he tells you when he's looking at it so it's not secret? Will you be happy to agree that's it's only something you want to do together?

My DH and I have also talked a lot since about the dangers of porn, porn addiction, how destructive it can be to marriages, the effects on people in the industry and the pornifciation of society and the worry that has for our kids- and I think he's come to see it is potentially a damaging route to take.

Just get talking and you'll probably find it will bring you closer together.

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 15:24:37

Well, I am certainly glad I didn't spend too much time stating my views for the perusal of the delightful cronulla who hasn't even acknowledged my reply to his personal questions.

cronullansw Mon 04-Feb-13 20:04:35

My darling AF, I'm terribly sorry I hadn't wasted some of my life sitting here breathlessly waiting for you to release your pearls of wisdom so that I could respond instantly, but I was very interested to see your link and thank you for making the effort, I actually do appreciate it.

I had a quick read through it and decided that I really needed time to give it full consideration, in stead of making a snap response. I'm sorry to say, rl has been interfering in this process, but I will do my best smile

As for blaming the internet for porn availability, well, yes and no. Yes, obviously it makes it easier to access, but porn was around before the net and pretty easy to find too.

I think it is the case that dv, rape and abuse existed before the net days too. Is it not possible that such cases are more widely reported these days as society has - too slowly - realised that dv / rape is unacceptable? Is it possible that we are blaming current influences for preexisting issues?

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 20:19:28

It's ok, cronulla, I am not interested in your response so don't knock yourself out

You asked me (me, personally...not inviting a wider discussion) where I was coming from, I gave you an indication of that.

now, I don't think you need me to tell you where you can insert your "pearls of wisdom" smile

GoSuckEggs Mon 04-Feb-13 21:28:55

"Really? I am not at all surprised that OP feels hurt and betrayed. Regular use of porn is sexually acting out OUTSIDE the marriage bond. Private porn use IS a betrayal.

Porn does reduce women to objects. The fantasy of porn does increase narcissism (selfishness, self-absorbtion). Porn does impact on marital sex negatively."

What a croc of shit! How can you say that 'private porn use IS a betrayal' - In your relationship it might be, But that is not to say that everyone considers it so. DH and I do not consider each others private porn use a betrayal, we each like to watch different things.
Porn has no negative impact on our marriage, we watch it together and separably - quite happily.

badinage Mon 04-Feb-13 21:45:43

As for blaming the internet for porn availability, well, yes and no. Yes, obviously it makes it easier to access, but porn was around before the net and pretty easy to find too.

No, the sort of porn that's available for free on the net and is regarded as mainstream now really wasn't around before because of censorship.

I think it is the case that dv, rape and abuse existed before the net days too. Is it not possible that such cases are more widely reported these days as society has - too slowly - realised that dv / rape is unacceptable?

I think society has always thought rape was unacceptable, hasn't it? Mind you, the amount of rape porn that's on the net now does make you wonder.....

Aren't we all more educated now innit?

The saddest line, for me, in the OP is we have sex once or twice a week and I feel it's good quality sex

there's the rub eh? Porn fucks up sex lives. In the long run.

I feel for you justkeeponsmiling but the good news is, you keep the kids, he keeps his rotten little habit.

And you have the pleasure of explaining to the children why you left him.

Knob.

cronullansw Mon 04-Feb-13 23:44:09

Badinage......

* Censorship still exists - you know the 18R rating thing? Pretty much unchanged for 30+ years. And thats worked really well hasn't it? It's really kept that mainstream porn out of the hands of the easily influenced. smile As for 'extreme pornography, the first snuff movie referenced, which surely is the most extreme pornography, dates back to 1971. I don't think Mr Berners Lee had quite got the wonderful world wide web up and running at that point.

* Didn't it used to be that - legally - a husband couldn't rape his wife? So apparently society hasn't 'always' thought' rape to be unacceptable.

AF - I said a polite thank you - you then tell me to ''insert my pearls of wisdom'. That really is so well mannered of you.

badinage Tue 05-Feb-13 00:47:51

Yes I'm well aware that censorship still exists - but it doesn't exist on the internet does it? That's the point.

Are you seriously suggesting that the average 11 year old in 1971 had easy access to a snuff movie, or that there was pressure on boys in society to watch snuff movies, in the same way as there is now for them to watch porn?

Yes Rape in Marriage was recognised as a criminal offence in 1991, but my point was that it's never been widely regarded as acceptable even when shockingly it wasn't criminalised. Having got married myself many years before that piece of legislation, no-one I knew then regarded marital sex without consent as anything other than rape and everyone knew that men who did that were utter scum.

Cronulla, there is no such thing as a snuff movie (ie people being murdered purely for the purpose of making pornography and selling it). The 70s film called 'Snuff' is a notorious fake that, these days, wouldn't convince a six-year-old.

It is very unlikely, even now that the Internet is the Home Of All Evil, that people are really murdering women just to make porn. To be blunt, the risks outweigh the benefits. Massively. It's possible that someone might label a film clip as Real Murder, but the sensible criminal would simply steal footage from something gross like Saw or Hostel and intercut it with standard footage of fucking. Piracy is, after all, much less serious a crime than murder.

picard476 Tue 05-Feb-13 19:41:45

why should a woman keep the kids UnlikelyAmazonian?

cronullansw Tue 05-Feb-13 22:33:42

SGB - I do completely agree, it's fake, like so much porn; fake tits, fake hair, fake orgasms. I mentioned Snuff as a genre to show that extreme shit was out there before the internet was around to demonstrate that pron was around before the net.

And Badinage - I'm so glad you agree with me on both my points, even although you haven't actually realised you agree.... censorship is futile and I never said rape was acceptable, I merely pointed out that societies views of rape and dv have, quite correctly, evolved and that could be the cause of us seeing an increase in reported dv and rape cases - example; females abusing men used to be virtually unheard of, now it is accepted that it takes place.

badinage Tue 05-Feb-13 22:40:07

The violence against women in some of today's porn isn't fake. There are women who have been permanently physically damaged by porn. The only thing that's fake is their enjoyment.

Please don't tell me that I agree with you without realising it. I don't think I've agreed with a single post of yours on this site, ever.

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 06-Feb-13 07:37:56

I agree with Badinage - the physical injuries these women suffer are definitely not fake, on some film sets, they make good use of staff who have been trained to stitch up injuries sad

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