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I have a choice, an abortion or relationship

(116 Posts)
tuckit Mon 28-Jan-13 16:36:04

ok, i'm ancient, dp even more so.

i was open about wanting to have a baby and initiating unprotected sex. dp was quite clear about not wanting another baby, most of the time, but on at least one occasion he agreed that we could try. he would sometimes ask if I was fertile and if I said yes he would say no sex then, most times he wouldn't ask. I was monitoring my cycles and never lied about cycle status.

I am now pregnant and he is saying I tricked him into it. He feels abused and wants me to have an abortion. If not he wants us to split up, even though we have a toddler that he loves.
I don't accept that he was tricked, I believed that because he knew the risks he was consenting. I really don't think I'm deluding myself about this. He does.

So, I'm faced with the choice, abortion and status quo in terms of relationship and living arrangements, or continuing with the pregnancy and uprooting all of us from our house and separating existing child from father.

Can I actually terminate this pregnancy that I really wanted without going mad? Is that what I have to do?

sooperdooper Mon 28-Jan-13 16:37:33

It was both your responsibility to take the risk, but do you want to continue a relationship with a man who pushes you into this kind of decision? it's not just your fault you're pregnant!

pictish Mon 28-Jan-13 16:38:55

I think you would deeply regret having a termination OP. That's all I can say.

Moominsarehippos Mon 28-Jan-13 16:40:37

If you went through with a termination against your will, then the relationship would be damaged (who knows how badly) for ever. You wanted a child and told him. He knew this and should have had apt he snip if he was that adamant. Is he in shock? I'm assuming it's still early days.

Why is he so against it? Is there a real reason or does he just not feel up to it/too old/too skint, etc?

HecateWhoopass Mon 28-Jan-13 16:41:30

Will you be able to stay with him if you feel he forced you into an abortion?

Would that not make you hate him, in time?

And if he knew no contraceptive was being used then he can't claim he was tricked into anything. Nice try and all that, but he's responsible for this just as much as you are.

The question you need to ask yourself at this point is - do you want a baby?

sleepyhead Mon 28-Jan-13 16:41:43

I don't think that's the choice tbh. If you have an abortion that you don't want then you don't just go back to the status quo.

The choice is between having a baby and possibly losing your partner, or having an abortion and possibly resenting your partner for ever more (and therefore losing them).

pepperrabbit Mon 28-Jan-13 16:43:55

If you really want this baby, and terminate to please/keep him, I suspect you will never forgive yourself and you will never forgive him.

delilahlilah Mon 28-Jan-13 16:46:38

You cannot 'undo' an abortion... however IF you want him back despite his attitude, it maybe that you can 'undo' the break up. Also, what if you terminate and he leaves anyway?

Locketjuice Mon 28-Jan-13 16:48:58

So he's is willing to make you choose and your even considering him? Sorry OP I think it really shows his personality and lack of care/respect if he's willing to put that on your shoulders... BUT and a huge one!
My oh when I told him I was pregnant did give me that ultimatum I told him to fuck off as he as well as me knew the risk when I had missed pills and had told him about them so was never a big secret, he came back with his tail between his legs!
He won't even talk about it now as he is so embarrassed how he acted, and only realised afterwards the enormity of what he was asking!

I hope whatever you choose you do not regret it and only you will know in your heart what you really want

ohforfoxsake Mon 28-Jan-13 16:49:04

What a sad dilemma sad

If you want the baby then continue with the pregnancy. You have to live with the choice you make either way so you should put yourself and what you want first.

You could well end up resenting him, blaming him and the relationship is over. He may end up loving the baby and you could be happy. Who knows what might happen, but the only constant is you, the only one you can be sure of is you, and so you must put yourself first.

Locketjuice Mon 28-Jan-13 16:50:52

And can I ask how far gone are you?

CarlingBlackMabel Mon 28-Jan-13 16:51:15

Do you think your relationship will survive, even if you have an abortion?
He has unprotected sex but refuses to take responsibility, you play games with language and communication, letting it happen by default because he didn't ask...you seem to want a baby badly enough to take advantage of his one moment of not asking, therefore presumably wnat a baby more than you wnat him, or to respect his feelings? He wants NOT to have a baby more than he wants you to be happy?

If you deeply want the baby, have the baby. Maybe he will genuinely have a change of heart and step into fatherhood, or maybe not.

But if you deeply deeply want this baby, why are you asking us?

Do you want him to take all the blame? Make it HIS decision to avoid a decision of your own?

Tough observations and questions, but I ask with your interests at heart, and wish you well, whatever decision you make. Sorry you are in this position and there was no smooth agreement between you. sad

CailinDana Mon 28-Jan-13 16:52:02

This isn't a clear cut choice. The choice is - have an abortion if you want one, or don't if you don't. Whether your DP stays in the relationship or not is up to him, not you. Having an abortion you don't want will not salvage your relationship so don't make your decision based on that. Keep the baby if you want to keep it, what happens with your relationship is a separate matter.

How did this situation come about? It sounds like communication between you is extremely bad - both of you seemed unclear on what the other wanted. Is it normally that bad?

glasscompletelybroken Mon 28-Jan-13 16:52:06

I had the same dilemma once and decided to keep the baby. he left but it was because he was having an affair and would have left anyway.

kickassangel Mon 28-Jan-13 16:53:51

Any adult who has consenting sex should be aware that they could become a parent. It's not exactly breaking news. If he had sex, he could become a dad. To make it your fault is just cruel.

Think about that for a while then decide what you want. You didn't trick him, in fact it sounds like he played mind games with you (unless there's more you're not telling us).

Best wishes, this is a terrible situation to be in.

adoption?

LittleMissStupid Mon 28-Jan-13 16:55:47

i agree with pictish.

Lovingfreedom Mon 28-Jan-13 16:56:39

Sounds like you wanted a baby more than a relationship in the first place and that's what you've ended up with. It might be the way that you've worded your post but it does come across that your DP was never really into the whole pregnancy thing and you knew that deep down all along. He's been irresponsible though by letting you get pregnant when he wasn't up for it. Given how keen you were to get pregnant it's clear that the relationship is not going to survive a termination. You would be distraught to lose a very much wanted (by you) baby. I'd say as long as you still feel you want to have a baby and are clear that it might well be as a single parent, have this baby, and take it from there.

Dahlen Mon 28-Jan-13 16:58:00

Only you can make this decision, and it's as much an emotional one as it is a pragmatic one, which might not make any sense to anyone other than you, but it's only you who matters in this scenario.

I think your relationship is in trouble anyway, in all honesty. You don't sound able to communicate well and you're certainly not pulling together as a team.

Read back your second paragraph. You say he was quite clear he didn't want a baby and then qualify it with a woolly 'most of the time'. That's wishful thinking on your part. It's obvious he hadn't really had a change of heart and was simply not protesting as much at certain times. You chose to ignore that because the desire for a baby is so strong. If you now abort, I can almost guarantee the resentment will kill your relationship anyway.

On his part, no excuses. He knew how you felt and decided to go ahead and take the risk anyway. He hasn't been tricked into fathering this child anymore than I am conned out of a £1 when I play the lottery. We all know the best and worse case scenrios and in the case of unprotected sex, the risk of conception is pretty bloody high. Blaming you is a complete cop out, but again he chose to ignore what you were saying because his desire to have sex (unprotected) was stronger. If you have this baby, he'll either have to accept his part in it (unlikely, since men who argue that women 'tricked' them into having a child rarely do) or he'll continue to paint himself further and further as a victim and use it as a steak to beat you with forevermore.

Still your decision, but in your shoes, I'd be looking to plan life as a single parent of two.

Dahlen Mon 28-Jan-13 17:00:09

stick hmm not steak

<is now picturing the OP's partner running round brandishing a steak>

izzyizin Mon 28-Jan-13 17:07:19

It's as Carling says: He has unprotected sex but refuses to take responsibility, you play games with language and communication, letting it happen by default because he didn't ask...

Now you've got the 2nd pg you wanted, you need to ask yourself the question you should have considered before you chose not to use contraception; namely, do you want another baby badly enough to be a single parent to 2 dc?

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 17:07:35

I also think maintaining a relationship with someone long term who has put such pressure on you to have a termination when you don't want to is probably untenable.

RubyrooUK Mon 28-Jan-13 17:12:36

I agree with everyone else. You have to work out if an abortion is a possibility for you. If not, you have to accept that may mean the end of your relationship. But only you know which of those two things is most unpalatable to you. (And would your relationship survive an abortion even if you chose to stay with him?)

I also agree entirely with Dahlen. Of course your husband took the risk of sleeping with you without protection so as an adult has to take responsibility for that, but it doesn't sound like communication has been very good between you.

When my DH and I decided to try for DC2, he wouldn't have actively tried to avoid my fertile times, for example. If your husband was saying no sex in case you got pregnant, this does not sound like a pregnancy he wanted. (At that point, my husband and I would have been having a very serious talk about TTC and our future.)

You haven't tricked him - he has his own brain and knows how babies are made - but it sounds like he wasn't really committed to trying for a baby at all. So now he is reacting to that.

I'm so sorry you're in this very difficult situation OP. I think now all you can do is work out what future is the one that has most chance of making you happy.

AThingInYourLife Mon 28-Jan-13 17:13:36

Your relationship won't survive a coerced abortion.

So your options appear to be

1 have the baby alone
2 don't have the baby alone

CheeseStrawWars Mon 28-Jan-13 17:20:22

If you have an abortion, that doesn't guarantee he'll stay with you.

Sounds to me as if he's almost looking for excuses to leave you - he knows unprotected sex can result in pregnancy, this is not a "trick". But "I broke up with tuckit as she tricked me into a baby I didn't want" lets him off the hook of having to either work on the relationship or take responsibility for ending it.

peeriebear Mon 28-Jan-13 17:30:02

I've said it before- 'It's me or the baby' is an incredibly arrogant challenge to issue. What man thinks himself above the bonds of motherhood?
If you chose him, you would invariably despise him for the baby that can never come back. If you chose the baby, you'd have a baby. Your DC's sibling.

superstarheartbreaker Mon 28-Jan-13 17:37:31

I'd dump him op; he sounds like a tool. If you abort you'd loose all respect for him. I was in this situation and kept baby. He fucked off. Best decision I ever made and no I don't miss him. His coersion is abusive ; not your wanting to keep baby.

expatinscotland Mon 28-Jan-13 17:44:57

You don't want an abortion. If he really never wanted anymore, he'd have taken the appropriate steps. He's made his choice and so have you.

izzyizin Mon 28-Jan-13 17:47:34

Was your 1st dc planned and wanted by both of you? What are his reasons for not wanting a second child?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Mon 28-Jan-13 17:55:20

Whether you tricked him, he misled you or it was an accident doesn't matter.

You are pregnant. You want another baby. He doesn't. You will almost certainly split up either way, but maintenance will be due for both children.

What do you want to do?

AnyFucker Mon 28-Jan-13 17:58:18

Have the baby or don't have the baby.

But don't stay with a man who forces you to choose between him or a termination.

tuckit Mon 28-Jan-13 18:04:25

thanks for all the replies. Sorry for not responding to each one in detail, but will attempt to answer most:

I'm 7 weeks pregnant. I thought his reaction was shock when I first told him, but despite being very affectionate as long as the subject isn't raised, he continues to say he wants an abortion or separation.

I definitely underestimated his desire not to have another baby and I am at fault there. My wishful thinking did turn a few statements he made into much more than they meant to him. Communication isn't great between us really. I don't think all that amounts to deceit, a bit selfish though, yes, I agree probably, in retrospect.

He feels that having another baby will seriously jeopardise his ability to do his job well and he also doesn't want the financial responsibility. He also has serious health issues which, although fine and stable atm, could reappear and make him very ill or even kill him at any point, and the knowledge of that gives him a strong desire to cling on to whatever autonomy he has to live out the rest of his life pursuing his own interests.

Those same potential health problems are actually partly why I thought it particularly important for dc1 to have a sibling. Is that madness?

Jux Mon 28-Jan-13 18:05:19

Your relationship has been irrevocably damaged already. He is trying to blame you, you say he's a responsible adult. You want the baby, he doesn't. Even if you do manage to forgive each other, neither of you will forget.

superstarheartbreaker Mon 28-Jan-13 18:08:33

He's being affectionate to try to coerce you into having an abortion; my ex tried this stunt on me. When I was 6 months gone he turned into a knob again. UUUUGGGGRRRRR; these kind of 'men' make my blood boil. If he loved you he would tell you he would support you no matter what. Why dosn't he want another baby? I would be very suspicious; sounds like he has one foot out the door anyway. Is there an OW? Sorry for you op.

AnyFucker Mon 28-Jan-13 18:09:09

Eww, how can you stand him being physically affectionate after he has dropped a bombshell like this ?

Corygal Mon 28-Jan-13 18:09:10

I'd stick with the baby - he sounds like he's not that into the family thing and might slip away anyway.

Don't tell us if you don't want to, but what's wrong with his health?

superstarheartbreaker Mon 28-Jan-13 18:10:07

I mean you only have one dc so another one wouldn't be the end of the world financially would it? What are his exact reasons op? Question him on this one.

superstarheartbreaker Mon 28-Jan-13 18:12:06

Just read your post re his reasons. I think his concerns are valid but NOT the way he is dealing with them. He sounds very selfish. Once you get over the pain of lossing him you will seriously wonder what you saw in him.

InsertWittyUsername Mon 28-Jan-13 18:13:25

You made your choice between a baby and the relationship when you chose to TTC with someone who made it clear they did not want to have another baby. He is completely wrong to say you 'tricked' him and he shouldn't have had sex with you knowing what he knew, but you are being equally disingenuous. You took full responsibility for TTC in a situation where there was not a mutual desire for a child. I am not saying this to flame you or be horrible, but I also think you need to own what's happened here. I think that when someone has a pregnancy vs. relationship dilemma, they should just decide based on whether they want the baby as the relationship will probably end either way sad

InsertWittyUsername Mon 28-Jan-13 18:15:12

Sorry, cross-post. You have acknowledged all that. It is a very sad situation. I agree that you shouldn't be accused of deceit.

superstarheartbreaker Mon 28-Jan-13 18:18:09

I think the issue is that the op DID want a baby but her dh didn't INSERT. I think that so many think that the urge to have children is completely rational when of course it is not; it is a powerful biological urge for many that is hard to ignore. Obviously lecturing her on concieving is like closing the stable door when the horse has bolted.

aamia Mon 28-Jan-13 18:21:32

Sitting here with my baby on my lap, the choice would be clear to me. Human, gorgeous life vs a relationship. No contest.

expatinscotland Mon 28-Jan-13 18:21:36

'but despite being very affectionate as long as the subject isn't raised, he continues to say he wants an abortion or separation.'

Typical behaviour of a manipulative twunt.

If his health problems were that severe and he really didn't want another, why didn't he have a vasetomy and use the condom?

This is over. I'd tell him and spare yourself all this stress.

InsertWittyUsername Mon 28-Jan-13 18:22:34

superstar I wasn't. I was saying that, now that it's happened, it'd be good for her not to blame him 100% (in the way he's trying to do to her). Because we are always better off when we understand our own responsibility and roles in things that happen to us. Always. Even when it's not easy.

2rebecca Mon 28-Jan-13 18:25:25

If the relationship finishes and you have the baby he still has the financial responsibility of the child via the CSA. If he really didn't want a child he should have had a vasectomy and probably then still used condoms. Contraception is his responsibility as well. One thing I am trying to impress on my son is that contraception is as much his responsibility as the woman's and if he definitely doesn't want to be a father he needs to use contraception even if she is, or preferably not do it at all if young and not in a serious relationship as condoms are unreliable and young women are unreliable at pill taking.

LynetteScavo Mon 28-Jan-13 18:27:08

What expat said.

He's bullying you into doing what would be most convenient for him.

izzyizin Mon 28-Jan-13 18:48:02

Those same potential health problems are actually partly why I thought it particularly important for dc1 to have a sibling. Is that madness?

It's madness to think that siblings will necessarily become good friends and/or support each other through the inevitable (if nature takes its course) loss of their dps.

It's madness to have another dc if the 'potential health problems' can be inherited and there has been no genetic counselling before conception.

Without knowing exactly how life threatening the 'potential health' problem is, it sounds as if he's come to terms with what may be his reduced life expectancy and, in such circumstances, it's understandable that he wants to live out the remainder of his life on his terms.

He may be fearing how you would cope with 2 dc if he were to die suddenly/prematurely.

Did he actively want to have your 1st dc? Or did you talk him into it, so to speak?

To be honest, in your shoes, I would have the baby and cut my losses with him.
In 10 years, your toddler might find himself without a dad, an "elderly" mum and no sibling. You will be much older, a widow, and more than likely regret the child you aborted.

In your shoes, I would say: "Peter, I have made up my mind to keep the baby, because I cannot live with aborting a wanted child. If you can live with leaving me and the child you already have, then this is your decision and I will respect it. I interpret it that your love just isnt strong enough for all three of us". Or something to that effect.

He just isnt a good catch. If he can manipulate you like this, and perform such emotional black mail on you, with love and tenderness, blaming his poor health on living a selfish life, then, really, you have nothing to lose.

CheerfulYank Mon 28-Jan-13 18:54:50

I would personally never be able to stay with someone who forced me to have an abortion I didn't want. Things would never be the same.

juneau Mon 28-Jan-13 21:03:34

What CheerfulYank said. It takes two to make a baby. If he didn't want one and knew that you did he should've stuck a condom on his dick.

BacardiNCoke Mon 28-Jan-13 21:18:33

20 years ago my mum got pregnant unexpectedly (although how it could have been unexpected when they were having unprotected sex I don't know hmm). My dad absolutely didn't want the baby, (me and my sister were teenagers at the time). He pretty much railroaded my mum into having an abortion, (said that another child would split them up). She had the abortion even though she very much wanted the baby. My dad did then have the snip soon after. But they divorced 3 years later. My mum has said that her single biggest regret is not having the baby. Their marriage was on the rocks after that anyway, she could never really forgive him.

OP if you terminate a child you want just to appease this man and save your relationship it won't work. If he truly loved you he wouldn't be giving you an ultimatum like this, he would support you. And quite frankly, where the fuck did he get sex education from? He already has a child you'd think he'd know how they're made. hmm You will regret not having this baby and your relationship probably won't survive anyway.

Lueji Mon 28-Jan-13 21:33:12

If he didn't want one and knew that you did he should've stuck a condom on his dick.
this

Or have the snip.

NutellaNutter Mon 28-Jan-13 21:35:07

He sounds like a complete tosser.

sunnyday123 Mon 28-Jan-13 21:37:01

Actually if your relationship is strong enough I think it could survive an abortion.

2 years ago I was desperate for a third child. My dh wasn't as keen but I pestered and pestered and he agreed to try. I think he expected it to take ages as it had taken me up to a year ttc my first two.

During this 3rd time my dh did say he wasn't keen etc but I just hoped and presume he'd change his mind. As he knew I was not on the pill I thought he was ok really ( though he also thought he'd made his feeling pretty clear too)

One night we had a real heart to heart and I realised I had pushed him into something I wanted and not what we both wanted. So I agreed to stop trying. The very next day I found out I was pregnant. Dh was gutted and I was secretly pleased tbh but over the next few days I realised having the baby would cause more resentment than not. Put simply my marriage and family were more important to me so I had an abortion. I have no regrets whatsoever and we are stronger than ever as dh knows how much I respected his opinion.

If you knew your dp did not want a child then this situation is not all his fault. At the end of the day if you knew he didn't want one then surely you would be more likely to use protection knowing that this could be a decision you would have to make? yes men must take responsibility etc but us women are in charge of our own bodies and it sounds like you wanted this baby more than you valued your relationship. The question now is where the balance lies now. You have one child together and otherwise give the impression things a fine. He has a right to be upset as you do but it does sound like you have been dismissive of his concerns (as I was).

I'm not trying to judge but i feel ive been there and its not nice finally admitting that you have taken control of a situation the other person didnt want. i hated how trapped i had made my dh feel and feel so guilty for those months I put us through.

I just wanted to let you know that people can come back from abortions, stronger and more respectful of each other than before. Good luck in whatever you decide.

It sounds to me like you want a baby, so, don't have an abortion. You will regret it. You might not get another chance for a baby. What will be, will be with your relationship.

Lueji Mon 28-Jan-13 21:44:59

Sunny, did your OH make you choose between him and the unborn child?
From your post, you decided that you didn't want to impose a child on your OH, a decision made out of love for him.

The OP's husband knew it was not safe and he is trying to force her to have an abortion.
I could not stay with someone like that, regadless of having an abortion or not.

If he really thinks he was tricked, then he should leave the relationship now.

Varya Mon 28-Jan-13 21:45:16

Men who don't want children should take equal responsibility for birth control IMO. Why leave it all to their female partner whom he is fully aware could become pregnant? How immature. For me, the baby wins hands down, termination is no option in your situation and like other posters I feel he is a completely selfish knob to even expect you to do this.

marriedinwhite Mon 28-Jan-13 21:46:54

What do you want most - him or the baby? You knew it was a deal breaker so why did you take the chance if it was him most of all? He is an adult; he can make the choice to stay or leave. The baby has no choice in this at all.

I think you betrayed his wishes. You are an adult; you knew you could get pregnant and you knew there was not a mutual desire for you to get pregnant. Yes he could have taken more precautions but you said you initiated unprotected sex and we all know that men are ruled by their dicks rather than their brains. That's why women are superior to men; we have more common sense and better brains

BacardiNCoke Mon 28-Jan-13 21:52:53

Also a bit similar to sunnyday, I desperately wanted a second child, but DH didn't. We weren't using protection and the inevitable happened. He was to put it mildly gutted when I told him. He was already depressed and this sent him deeper. But, he never even mentioned abortion at all. He saw that he had played his part in making this baby and so stepped up and dealt with the consequences. DD2 is 6 now, and he loves her just as much as dd1 and DSD. He came around towards the end of the pregnancy and was very happy when she was born. He had the snip last year as we both don't want any more children. Our relationship was fine, but honestly if he had given me an ultimatum like your DP has I couldn't have stayed with him. I would have lost all respect for him.

sunnyday123 Mon 28-Jan-13 21:53:43

I did want the baby very much and my dh did not ask me to choose but things were very bad for a while. He basically thought I had been so obsessed with wanting this "ideal third child" that everything else was less important. He also said some pretty hurtful things, not as bad as op's partner but not far off.

In a way though what I did was pretty bad too. I had ignored his concerns, initiated sex during my fertile period as much as i could etc. I put us in the situation of having to have an abortion which tbh was easier for me than dh (I was 5 weeks pregnant and look at it from a now point of view than the potential iykwim).

Dh also knew it was not safe but I think he went along ablivious thinking a) we still had ages as only been trying a month b) that I'd change my mind.

yes he was naive and yes he knew what he was risking but so did I. I'm not a child and ultimately what I risk for my body etc is much more my responsibility not my dh. Even though the abortion has a horrible event, seeing our marriage recover made it worth it.

BacardiNCoke Mon 28-Jan-13 21:55:22

marriedinwhite really? hmm I do hope you're being sarcastic?

marriedinwhite Mon 28-Jan-13 21:58:19

Sarcasm? Two adults make informed choices. The unborn child does not.

QueenofPlaids Mon 28-Jan-13 21:58:41

DP has always been clear that if I got pregnant, we would deal with it & that he would support my choices. I don't particularly want kids ATM (possibly never), but am not totally against. We are careful, but could be moreso if either of us felt hugely strongly about it iyswim.

Of course things change, but when we were young and kids would've been an absolute disaster, we doubled up. Not because we couldn't trust each other, but because we both wanted to take responsibility. When we stopped we both acknowledged that potentially, there could be a pregnancy.

Your DP seems to have missed the bit where he also has to take responsibility. Yes you were probably a bit foolish to continue with unprotected sex when he didn't want children, but on the other hand, if you have a strong urge to do so it's easy to rationalise, whereas he did nothing to prevent it.

How is your relationship with your DP otherwise? From the sounds of it this could be a last chance, so if the relationship is not ideal (and the communication aspect sounds a bit lacking to be perfectly frank) it may not survive a coerced abortion in any case.

frustratedworkingmum Mon 28-Jan-13 21:59:17

im sorry but i think that you have both been really irresponsible, you knew you could get pregnant and HE knew you could get pregnant, now the reality doesn't suit sad

BacardiNCoke Mon 28-Jan-13 22:01:41

I'm talking about your "oh the poor menz can't control what's in their pants" attitude marriedinwhite. He's 50% responsible for this baby, if he so vehemently didn't want this baby he should have worn a bloody condom. Contraception is not purely the women's responsibility!

CheerfulYank Mon 28-Jan-13 22:35:58

Totally agree Bacardi.

I think abortion is much easier for men....it's not their body. For men it can be like it never happened. It will always have happened for a woman.

marriedinwhite Mon 28-Jan-13 22:56:39

No it isn't purely the woman's responsibility but regrettably women pay 100% of the price of the consequence and until men carry babies that will continue to be the case. Unfair - absolutely. True - absolutely. But until women face up to that fact and are prepared to take absolute responsibility they can't have absolute control.

Thewhingingdefective Mon 28-Jan-13 23:03:08

If you have the abortion because your partner wants you to you will resent him. If he really didn't want another baby he should have used condoms.

VicarInaTutu Mon 28-Jan-13 23:12:46

i would have counselling in your position OP - but my gut would be telling me what i needed to know i suspect.

if i were you i would call his bluff.

if he is using bully boy tactics to get his own way you will find out soon enough - if not and he is deadly serious then i would question how the relationship worked anyway - its ok while he gets what he wants? You say he knew you were not using protection - he must have realised what the consequences of that were.

responsibility is both of yours for this pregnancy - but its happened now. I know if i got pg now my DH would have a fit - but he would never force me to do something that i wasnt happy with, either way.

if you are a partnership you need to sit and discuss it.

CheerfulYank Tue 29-Jan-13 04:04:17

Well if she's got 100% of the responsibilities and consequences then she should have 100% of the decision.

Frankly he needs to man up. It's done. You can certainly choose not to continue the pregnancy but it will never not have happened.

MidnightMasquerader Tue 29-Jan-13 04:37:34

She is prepared to take absolute responsibility, marriedinwhite - and I don't really understand what you mean by 'they can't have absolute control'. They can. It may mean no compromise, but the DH's position means no compromise either. Why is his position the superior one?

The only way an abortion works long-term is if it's something you need (not want) to do for yourself.

stella1w Tue 29-Jan-13 05:17:30

Wouldn,t you rather have a relationship with a second child rather than this man?

Morloth Tue 29-Jan-13 06:41:03

Yep, his control over the situation is past.

You have to decide what you want, do you want another baby/child?

Honestly in the situation you describe I would be keeping the baby and losing the husband.

It is sad that you are so far apart on this, but if you have a termination you do not want, you will split up anyway, can't see it going any other way.

So your options really are: Have a Baby + Lose a Husband OR Have an Abortion + Lose a Husband.

DH would never make me choose between him and our children because he knows what that choice would be.

Inertia Tue 29-Jan-13 06:54:39

He had every chance to use a condom or have a vasectomy or refuse sex. He is also responsible for this pregnancy.

TBH it sounds like he is trying to opt out of this relationship anyway. Can you cope with being a single parent to two children? Mind you, the fact that he goes on about how important it is that he gets to pursue his life interests suggests that he might always put himself first whether in or out of the relationship.

CheerfulYank Tue 29-Jan-13 06:55:01

My DH either...I mentioned this thread and he was shocked.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 29-Jan-13 07:12:15

Fairly straight forward decision really.

If you want the baby, have the baby. Having an abortion is not going to save your relationship with this selfish manchild and I suspect that not being in a relationship with this manchild will be the best thing for you!

Lovingfreedom Tue 29-Jan-13 07:39:52

The other side of this is though that if you have this baby you will always have to deal with this man and so will the child. If possible it might be as well to end both relationship and the pregnancy and try to find someone who is going to be a half decent dad.

2rebecca Tue 29-Jan-13 07:59:56

I agree that having this man's child binds you to him long after the relationship has finished. Have the child if you want another child but it's doubtful a good relationship with him will last and I doubt he will just vanish from your life and there will be years of compromises ahead, presumably like with your exhusband.

Morloth Tue 29-Jan-13 08:02:01

It would be madness for an older woman who is pregnant and who wants another child to have a termination in the hope she will find a better partner to be a dad.

sunnyday123 Tue 29-Jan-13 08:09:12

Op do consider your other child. It may be that your dh is shocked and whilst he is behaving badly, he is probably angry with you and I'm sure that will pass. Personally i think the dh is getting a hard time on here for something the op has done fairly deliberately as she herself has admitted. Yes the dh should not be forcing her into an abortion but everyone seems ok with her forcing fatherhood onto him? Yes he should have insisted more on contraception but this is hardly an accident is it and the op knew all along he didnt want a child so should have prevented this situation as its her body and her choice of what to do in this now terrible situation.

If this type of ultimatum is normal controlling behaviour for him then go with the baby but don't split up your family because of your need for a second child- you have one child together who would otherwise benefit from a mum and dad together.

MidnightMasquerader Tue 29-Jan-13 08:16:28

...the op knew all along he didnt want a child so should have prevented this situation as its her body and her choice of what to do in this now terrible situation.

I get what you're saying, but your argument falls down here...

'The OP knew he didn't want a child so should have prevented this situation'.

Why is she responsible for him? Really, honestly, he should have prevented it. Not her. Him.

He's not a three year old that needs mothering. If having a child was seriously a deal-breaker for him, then he should have taken some responsibility himself, and not left something so life-changing utterly in the hands of someone else.

abbyfromoz Tue 29-Jan-13 08:19:53

As the mother of a toddler i could not consider having an abortion. Yes i admit i may have been a wife before i became a mother, but i am a mother over a wife any day! This is because adults can protect themselves, children need us to do that for them. You can disagree completely and i don't mean to offend but imo his behaviour seems extremely selfish (putting the blame on you and giving you an ultimatum) i wouldn't want a relationship with someone like that. How terribly tragic for your children sad

sunnyday123 Tue 29-Jan-13 08:21:15

Yes contraception is a two way thing but the op is not a child, she knew he didn't want a child. She did it anyway. He avoided her fertile times etc so he was open about not wanting more kids. The fact she is in this situation I think is more her fault than his. It's her body and we can go on about joint depiction etc but at the end of the day it's her that is now having to deal with it. I expect she thought he would come round. I can understand him feeling trapped.

It's all very well people saying leave him etc but they have a toddler. If he is otherwise a nice guy, this decision will split up their family so needs more consideration than "leave the guy" which many are saying.

If the op does leave purely on this choice, she is making a choice which has a massive affect on her other child. It's not inevitable that they'd split up (me and dh didn't - see my earlier post)

abbyfromoz Tue 29-Jan-13 08:33:49

Sunnyday123
The OP has said there were times when he was open to the idea- so should we assume that he was 100% against it in spite of knowing this?
I think that having another child is a HUGE decision. My husband and i both want a bigger family but until we have sorted out our relationship we won't bring another child into the world just yet (DD 21 months and has been a long and very difficult journey relationship wise). I suppose the unselfish choice is to always consider what kind of situation you are bringing a child into BEFORE getting pregnant but since its too late to consider that, and i personally could not bare the thought of abortion after seeing how bloody amazing my child is, they are both required to reconcile their own differences for the sake of this new life. It's time for him to put his new child before himself- if he loved his other child he should know how to do this!

2rebecca Tue 29-Jan-13 08:46:15

The fertile period is a rubbish method of contraception though. If they really wanted no more children then 2 intelligent adults should have put more effort into not conceiving any.
It sounds from the first line as though the OP was open about wanting another child. Asking "are you fertile at the moment" is rather pathetic if the bloke really didn't want to be a father and had had any sex education education or bothered to look up contraceptive methods.

wiltingfast Tue 29-Jan-13 08:55:32

Tbh if a man I was with put this choice to me I would consider that the relationship was in all likelihood over anyway. It is v difficult to see it surviving such a terrible choice and there is no way I'd abort a child I wanted to keep a man like that.

So base your decision on what you want to do about the baby not whether you want to keep this relationship going.

fromparistoberlin Tue 29-Jan-13 09:07:43

what pictish said sadly

I think in years to come the resentment and anger of being forced into an abotion would be hard to endure

BerylStreep Tue 29-Jan-13 10:24:57

But it's not the OP's decision to split up the family - it's the DP. He is the one issuing ultimatums, not her.

Out of interest OP, when you say you are ancient, as is your DP, who old are you both? How long have you been together. If it's not too nosey a question, how come you aren't married - did your DP not want to commit? How life threatening is your DP's illness?

Sorry for all the questions, and feel free to ignore, but I just wanted to get a feel for the wider circumstances.

This is such a sad situation, and in early pregnancy you should be taking care of yourself, not having your whole future in the balance. FWIW, I agree with those who say that if your DP is serious about this ultimatum, your relationship could never survive anyway.

CarlingBlackMabel Tue 29-Jan-13 15:14:28

News of his precarious health has made me more sympathetic to his pov. Would I wish to undermine my health and risk not being able to support my child / children? No. Would I want to have children I might then bereave? No. Would your current child rather have a Dad living throughout childhood and into early adulthood, or a sibling that might kill Dad? Probably the former. It sounds as if he takes his providing role very seriously - are you sure it is about enjoying his time?

But I have tremendous sympathy for your pov too.

expatinscotland Tue 29-Jan-13 15:29:21

This person has already made his choice: he chose to have sex with no condom and not have a vasectomy.

expatinscotland Tue 29-Jan-13 15:30:30

'It sounds as if he takes his providing role very seriously - are you sure it is about enjoying his time?'

If that were true, he'd have had a vasectomy and/or used a condom to ensure he didn't father any more children.

CheerfulYank Tue 29-Jan-13 15:34:02

Why would this baby kill him? confused

Jux Tue 29-Jan-13 16:09:51

I was wondering that, CheerfulYank. He isn't carrying it or giving birth...

GregBishopsBottomBitch Tue 29-Jan-13 16:15:57

Tuck, This will sound crazy, but why not just ignore what he says, dont make a decision, force him to make it, call him on his bluff, if he wants to leave then he can go, he just wants to be able to blame you, dont let him.

Jayne266 Tue 29-Jan-13 16:19:28

To be honest does it shock you the way he has acted?
As I think for myself if my DH said these things/acted like this I wouldn't want to be with him.

You have also got the question do you want more kids and he doesn't then you might be on different paths anyway.

5madthings Tue 29-Jan-13 16:19:46

Oh fgs if he didn't want a baby he either shouldn't have had sex or should have used a condom.

Issuing an Ultimation as he has done is vile, I could never stays with a man that did that, I just couldnt get over it and I doubt the op will either.

perceptionreality Tue 29-Jan-13 16:23:02

marriedinwhite - what a nauseatingly sexist approach you have; 'men are just stupid really, we can't expect them to take responsibility, poor things' hmm no wonder some don't then...

OP, I don't think you should have an abortion unless it's what you want and it sounds like you don't. I agree with others that your relationship will never be the same if you do it and is unlikely to survive it.

He needs to grow up and stop blaming you - he had the opportunity to stop a pregnancy if it was that much of a big deal for him and you have been up front with him.

blondecat Tue 29-Jan-13 16:27:15

What an awful situation

Don't do anything you don't want to do.

What kind of a man is he to be asking you this? I really hope he will cool down enough to ask himself this

EasilyBored Tue 29-Jan-13 17:04:41

It sounds like you've already made your choice tbh. Issuing an ultimatum is horrible, and he should have taken responsibility if he didn't want another baby BUT pressuring someone and playing with words to get what you want are pretty despicable things too.

I wouldn't stay with him but I also wouldn't stay with a partner who our pressure on me to have a baby I didn't want.

HeyHoHereWeGo Tue 29-Jan-13 17:12:17

Your relationship is over if you have an abortion imo
Have the baby, maybe he'll come round, maybe he wont.

Maybe he is having an affair.
After years on these boards, I'd say 1/2 the time a man reacts violently to the news of another baby its because hes told his OW that hes in a sexless marriage.

toffeelolly Tue 29-Jan-13 17:17:23

would not want to be with this man if he was makeing me choose between and abortion or the relationship , if he loved you he would not make you choose if he did not want a baby he should have put something on it

Viviennemary Tue 29-Jan-13 17:25:52

That is a dreadful situation for you. But in my opinion you should not be blackmailed into this huge decision that you might very well regret in the future. No. Make your decision on what you want to do regardless of what he says he will do. And then he makes his decision about what he wants to do. And there are no guarantees he will stay whatever you do.

perceptionreality Tue 29-Jan-13 19:02:06

'After years on these boards, I'd say 1/2 the time a man reacts violently to the news of another baby its because hes told his OW that hes in a sexless marriage.'

I knew of someone having an affair with a married man who had been told this and then the man had to explain away his wife having another baby which he attempted to do by saying that his wife had sex with him while he was asleep hmm

I hope that is not the case for the OP.

CheerfulYank Tue 29-Jan-13 19:07:01

shock at that ^

God, they really will say anything, won't they?

tuckit Tue 29-Jan-13 19:10:53

Thanks for all the comments. It's great to have so many different opinions on this miserable situation. I've got lots to think about.

I can't give details about our relationship, age or the illness for the sake of anonymity. The illnesses are not hereditary, they may or may not be deadly in years or decades. They're not especially debilitating in the meantime. There's no reason to think another baby would have any impact on any of this. I do actually think his health would be more at risk if we were to separate. We could afford to pay for enough childcare to keep his involvement minimal if that's what he wanted, but it would reduce our chances of any sort of early retirement. He could lose out a bit there I can see that, but I'm not sure how much more expensive it is to have two children rather than one.

I'm old enough to make it very unlikely that this pregnancy progresses further than first trimester anyway. I'm off to a scan tomorrow to see if there's anything with a heart beat. If they do there are of course no guarantees.

Anyway, I'm obviously not proud or happy to be in this situation. If I do lose this pregnancy I certainly won't be aiming for another. I really did think that although he did often say he definitely didn't want any more children he did also definitely, at least once, say out loud that we could try, and I felt he was also giving mixed messages non-verbally. Partaking in unprotected sex month after month was part of that. I can see now that was mostly wishful thinking. Hormones too.

I can hardly believe that he'd go through with a separation if the pregnancy does continue, but with my track record of reading him I could obviously be wrong. We have been together for ages and have been through a lot together. I would hate for DC to lose our home, but if he's sharing it with parents who have no respect for each other it might be worth the upheaval.

I am having counselling, and trying to arrange a visit to someone with DH.

FOURBOYSUNDER6 Tue 29-Jan-13 19:57:52

Terrible situation he has put you in if you look at SPUC society protection unborn child website you will find lots of advice and support .... Email fiorella Nash via the site as she is amazingly supportive to women in this situation and will help. There is a good section on post abortion and mental health to consider too.... Lets skip the euphemisms of ' termination of pregnancy '. It is killing a life and the baby is fully developed in a matter of weeks and just needs to grow ..... I might be a minority voice in the anti abortion debate but I have been faced with very similar situation so I empathise and there was no question of me considering abortion despite pressure. I now have a wonderful son who I adore. You will never regret a child no matter how hard it is but you will regret bring pressured into an abortion forever.... Maybe he will come round in time???? In my situation it was different once baby arrived .....

FOURBOYSUNDER6 Tue 29-Jan-13 20:04:05

Also if you have an abortion against your will you will resent him forever in addition to be grief stricken and relationship could not possibly survive it ???? Be strong. Do not terminate. Get support. If he apologises and comes round then good but if not get a plan together for life without him and to be good mum to your two babies .....

Jux Tue 29-Jan-13 21:01:35

Don't get involved with SPUC, they are hardly non-partisan, and if you were to have an abortion in the end, well, they are not reknowned for their tolerance under those circumstances.

You will get impartial advice from your current counsellor, Which will be the best for you and tailored to you. Likewise, if your dh goes to someone recommended by your counsellor.

CartedOff Tue 29-Jan-13 21:41:51

I'm sorry you're in this situation and I hope that you can get some help to come to a decision.

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely astonished that a man who feels so strongly about not having another child (to the point that he would split up with his partner) would have unprotected sex for months on end. That is ridiculous.

He took no responsibility for preventing pregnancy aside from asking you if you were fertile and is then angry when you get pregnant. I can't help but feel it's just plain laziness- he was happy not taking any responsibility and just coasting along assuming everything would be fine, not taking any action to prevent a pregnancy...then he gets upset when one happens. As if it were your fault alone.

It just strikes me as really unfair. He has the luxury of assuming all will be well and when it isn't then he can take up the position of wronged spouse and insist on what he wants.

Alittlestranger Tue 29-Jan-13 22:07:41

I'm feeling blunt so - have the baby. You clearly want the baby very badly if you were daft enough to TTC in what sounds like a crappy relationship with a man who made it clear he didn't want anymore children with you.

Ultimately the OP's DH can't complain too much and has to take responsibility for his own penis, but even from her account which is probably not identical to his he has a right to be annoyed. If the OP really is "ancient" he probably assumed the risk was low. And yes he may be an idiot about how effective the rythem method is, but he made it clear he didn't want another child.

You should think about the impact on your other child though. There is a risk he will grow up to resent this baby as the reason why mummy and daddy aren't together anymore speaking from experience.

perceptionreality Tue 29-Jan-13 23:12:54

'he made it clear he didn't want another child.'

1. The OP has said that he had days where he agreed they could try for a baby.

2. If he really didn't want another child he should have had a vasectomy or used a condom.

Alittlestranger Tue 29-Jan-13 23:28:45

And the OP has already clarified that she misinterpreted those apparent days when he agreed they could try... As she says, they can't communicate.

corblimeymadam Wed 30-Jan-13 02:18:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Wed 30-Jan-13 03:49:36

he did also definitely, at least once, say out loud that we could try, and I felt he was also giving mixed messages non-verbally. Partaking in unprotected sex month after month was part of that.

I would have absolutely read that - both of those things - as him being ambivalent as well, OP. In my relationship, the rule has always been whoever is less keen on a subsequent child has responsibility for contraception. If you were genuinely always honest about when your fertile times were, when asked, then he hasn't been tricked. And you've already said that you wouldn't aim for another pregnancy if this one isn't viable.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter, what's done is done. FWIW, I don't find two children much more expensive than one, except that I pay double in childcare; if I didn't work outside the home the expense would be minimal in these early years.

Good luck at your scan.

cafecito Wed 30-Jan-13 03:55:30

you will regret having an abortion, and having to have done that would ruin your relationship anyway. Be strong OP.

juneau Wed 30-Jan-13 16:39:13

Partaking in unprotected sex month after month was part of that.

I'll say! But you do say you're 'old', whatever that means, so maybe he thought there wasn't a lot of chance you'd get pregnant. Either way, he's been playing with fire and he knows damn well how babies are made, so he has to take some responsibility for this situation. He can't lay it all at your door.

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