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Husband wants an abortion I don't please help(171 Posts)
I never thought I would be posting on here.
I am 24. My dh is 34. We have 5 dc dd1 is nearly 8 dtwinson and dtwindaughyer are 5 dd3 is nearly 3 and dd4 is 19 months. I also had a mmc at 12 weeks in 2009
I have/had the merina coil. Found out last friday I am pregnant roughly 5 weeks.
Dh is adament he doesn't want another dc. We talked about having a another dc in the future but not at the moment.
We run our own taxi service which I answer the phones do the admin and he drives he works long and unsocial hours and doesn't get enough sleep as it is to be fair.
He wants me to have an abortion I've been to the doctors and made an appointment for bpas for Tuesday.
I really really really don't want to have an abortion.
He says he wont cope with another dc. He finds it hard to cope with the ones we have at the moment.
He says the final decision is mine. It doesn't feel like mine. I know he would be upset angry annoyed if I keep the baby.
But how can I have another baby knowing I forced him to be a dad again.
He says its unfair of me to force him to be a dad again when he doesn't want it.
How can I bring a baby up knowing dh didn't wanted it. I have no one else to talk to
Sorry its long I just don't know which way to turn.
Just a hand to hold for now until someone comes along that will be better able to help you.
I have always thought that an abortion is a decision that only a woman can make, and if you feel he has pushed you into one, you may resent him for it for the rest of your life
Do not allow yourself to be coerced into an abortion, it's your body, your choice. He is saying it is your decision but still guilt tripping you? He is an arse.
You know your DH - will he come round to the idea of another baby in a few weeks/months?
You sound fairly sure that you don't want an abortion. You say you had the coil, did he know you had it removed? Was he aware you could get pregnant or was it a complete accident?
He is an arse? Really? For having an opinion, for not wanting to bring a sixth child into an already struggling family?
He's said it's her decision, but has made his feelings clear.
It is your decision. He is an arse. How can you "force" him into being a father? Did he not partake on the making of this baby? Do you have anyone in real life you can talk too??
It was a complete accident. If I don't have an abortion I have to go back to doctors to get referred for a scan to see if its still there.
I'm fairly certain he wont come round to the idea. He said there isn't one tiny part of him that wants this baby.
I can see this tearing our family apart whatever happens. If I do have an abortion I know I will resent him and possible end up hating him. If I don't I can see him feeling the same about me.
Can't believe people are saying her DH is an arse.. The man is entitled to an opinion.
He has said he doesn't want another child now, and given the circumstances it's clear why. He's said it's her decision. She feels guilty - so is he 'forcing' her to get an abortion, or is she 'forcing' him to be a father? Either, both, neither. Whatever.
No one is being an arse. It's a horribly difficult situation but telling her her DH is an arse is unnecessary.
OP - you need to talk to him. Tell him all that you have said here, about your worries about tearing the family apart and how much you feel you can't have an abortion.
I would suggest though, that whilst you are likely to actually regret an abortion and hold that against him, breeding resent, he is unlikely to feel resent towards his own child when it comes. He will love it as he does his other five.
I also have some sympathy with your DH. Five children is already a bus-load and I can see why he's reacted badly. He can't make you have an abortion, however, and I think the best way to tackle this is to work out what his real objections are. Do you have room for six? Are your finances too stretched? Do you need more help at home? What is it exactly that he's worried about? Then see if you can put your heads together to manage the objections constructively rather than emotionally.
You also need to sort out some far more reliable contraception. Contraceptive pill, for example. Why didn't he get a vasectomy after the last child?
This must be very tough for you both. Do not have an abortion if you don't want one, but your DH is also entitled to his opinion. Whatever you decide, please get your contraception sorted out, that a lot of babies for someone your age!
I don't think your DH is an arse. Both of you have perfectly understandable reasons for your positions on this. Yes, the decision is yours but he is perfectly entitled to have his opinion and under the circumstances I can see why he would react the way he has. I can't imagine how a 24-yr old copes with five young children (including two twins) to be honest and the finances alone must be a huge concern. I'd have snipped before now bearing in mind how super fertile you are!
this is such a difficult situation. i am so sorry you are both having to go through this.
i agree with not having an abortion unless you are sure it's what you want. it IS your decision to make ultimately.
however i do believe there is more talking to be done as his feelings about becoming a father again are valid and he would be doing you and your family an injustice to hide them.
tell him what you have told us here. even show him this thread.
I know where he is coming from. I understand what he is saying. He also says its unfair on the dc we already have.
All other 5 dc were planned.
He didn't want to have the snip.
If we cut back on certain things we could afford another dc.
Our others don't go without.
I slept on the sofa last night as I couldn't face sleeping next to him.
Sorry should say dd1 wasn't planned but was much wanted by us both
What a horrible situation. Not sure why there are comments about contraception - you had effective contraception and have been bloody unlucky to still get pregnant.
I wouldn't want a termination, am fully pro choice but just couldn't do it personally, had this rather tested recently and was amazed at the strength of my feeling. It is your body and your choice and whilst your dh may have very understandable worries which may need discussion he has been choosing to have sex and hasn t had the snip, he was involved in this. There is no small print to our use of contraception that reads if it fucks up we automatically get a termination.
He is being an arse if he tried to force you to give up rights over your own body, he is being disingenuous if he thinks this has nothing to do with him. If he didn't realise that no contraception is 100% it might be s shock but I think he probably knew this.
Talking, counselling might help him understand why it is your choice, and one your shared choices have have forced upon you. I hope you find a way through.
Oh there you go 'he didn't want to have the snip'.
Being an arse IMO. Haves you got friends you can talk to?
This is an awful situation and there is no right thing to do.
You need to sit down and work it out. It would be much better to do this sooner rather than later.
Sorry, I have no better advice but I hope you can resolve this one way or another.
I think it has to be your decision.
He gets to have an opinion and to make his own choices after talking with you.
Am thinking he could get a vasectomy for example ?
so maybe have this baby and decide it will be your last ?
Hopefully you can all find room to love just this one more ?
As another poster said maybe for him the love would come more once the baby was here ?
You have to do what's right for you whatever the outcome of that.
He isn't an arse, the reason he hasn't has the snip could be this
We talked about having a another dc in the future but not at the moment. Pretty difficult I would have thought if he has the snip.
Other than that, I agree with DSM.
I presume he didn't want to have the snip because they have talked about having more children in the future
I don't even know what to suggest. It just sounds really difficult and I presume as you have already had a twin pregnancy you could have another?
A bit confused regarding your mirena - you said you have/had it, does that mean you have had it removed?
Its not particulary helpful I feel for posters to automatically call her DH an arse - he is only expressing his opinion, based on the fact they already have 5 children and hes working all hours to support the family he does have. Yes no-one can force OP to have an abortion but as she has stated he will end up resenting her no doubt if she has a child that he doesnt want. Its a bit of a mess, and OP I would encourage more communication between the 2 of you. Im on no-ones "side".
buttery she could have been sterilised instead of him? It is she being an arse too
Can we please stop all the man-bashing, it's doing the OP no favours to continually read that her DH is an arse. He actually sounds like a really decent guy, from the limited info. we have. He works hard to provide for his family. Long hours, doesn't sleep much. Cares about not spreading their resources too thin, hence the reluctance at continuing a pregnancy for a sixth - sixth - child.
What an arse
Its is more unfair for him to attempt to force you into an abortion and loss of a child you want than it is him being a dad again.
You have not tricked him into pregnancy its not your fault.
I had a friend in this situation, please don't be forced into an abortion if you don't want it. My friend never got over it and it tore her marriage apart because she was so angry.
I was on the fence until "he didn't want to get the snip". Men who really don't want any more children get the snip. DH is already thinking about his future snip, and we are still ttc our final child.
On the other hand, a friend is pg with a baby her H doesn't want. His tactics to get her to abort are intensifying, and it is quite horrible, particularly bearing in mind she is now about 16w.
I don't like the "it is your decision, but I definitely think you should get rid of it" because I feel this would be brought up every single time OP has a problem - "morning sickness? Well it was your idea to keep it" "tired? Well it was your idea to keep it" etc etc.
Can you sit down and work out precisely what financial difference another child would make, in terms of impact on the rest of the family? If for example it would prevent your getting a WOH job that you had been planning for 2014, or if you'd need to move/extend your house, or replace the
From my perspective (two DCs, same sex), the difference between five and six children seems absolutely negligible: you will know better.
Book him an appointment for the vasectomy. Contraception is everybody's responsibility, and you've been doing your part.
I also wondered about the mirena, did you get pregnant on that or have it removed due to symptoms etc? (I have it so am nervous!)
I have 5DC and don't plan more but if got pg would keep the baby. If DH pushed for abortion I would still keep it. I was in a simelar position as a teenager (but with 1st baby) it was horrible stressful nightmare on my own faced with that decision but I went ahead and never regretted it. Never have an abortion unless you are 100% or thereabouts as the aftermath can be awful. I know because I had terrible news during a scan and was forced to either terminate the pg or go to term and the baby to suffer and die. The guilt from that was bad enough.
If you want the baby then you must keep it. There is a good hance he could come round. You are carrying the baby it is your decision. He is an arse!!
FWIW I would have thought there were financial benefits to having a sixth now or never.
I would tell him how I would feel in your shoes - that it's a terribly hard decision but that at the end of the day, there is hope you could handle a sixth child in your family but that you don't think you would ever get over having an abortion. I think - only my opinion - that he may forgive you keeping the baby more easily than you'd forgive him causing you to have the pregnancy terminated. Hopefully you have family that can help yiu out. And it'll get easier as the kids get older. Good luck.
She wouldn't be sterilised in my area as she is too young, being a decade younger than her dp and not so averse to having another child it would make no sense for her to be sterilised. If the dh didn't want children he could have controlled his body rather than seeking to control his wife's by forcing a termination. You are right though he may not be an arse but he is behaving like one.
she has already said she has to have a scan to where the mirena is
from that i would presume it is not where it is supposed to be and has either come out or got lost
Yeah, I'd say keep talking.
Have you ever discussed what you would do if you got pregnant?
There is no 100% proof contraception method (apart from removing your womb).
If you feel you will separate eventually, would you be happy to have 6 children at home, living by yourself?
And has your DH considered what will happen if he splits leaving you with 6 children, but him also having to cope with those same 6 children when it's his turn to have them?
It's not an easy decision, but you have to work it out as a couple.
Maybe try emergency counselling, or find out if there could be some support for your family from child charities, for example?
Or could you postpone the termination for a couple of weeks to allow some time to consider it carefully?
I said have/had the coil as the doctor is unsure if it has moved or fallen out.
Dh didn't want the snip as we had talked about another dc in the very long future.
My head is a mess.
I always said I was 100% against abortion for myself.
To be honest even though I love him more than anything I can see this as the begining of the end whatever happens
He didn't get a vasectomy as they were planning more children in the future.
Can none of you read?!
This must be really difficult for you both but your DH is being unfair to make out that YOU will be the one making the decision to have another baby. It is quite clear from your OP that neither of you were intending to have another baby. Sometimes contraception fails but an abortion is not always a suitable back up plan. It is a hard thing to deal with if you're not 100% sure it is right for you. whatever you decide make sure it is what you want because you may resent him for persuading you to have an abortion but he can't resent you for having a baby you were both equally responsible for creating
Yes, in light of the fact that the 5 children they have were largely planned and that they have talked of having a sixth in the future I think he is being unreasonable to put as much pressure as he is towards you having an abortion, and without really listening to your feelings. Your body, your choice. In my opinion he'll come round to the idea. Maybe just give him the opportunity to talk about how he feels, but don't hold back on telling him how you feel too.
I think he should re-consider having a vasectomy too. He possibly knows this and is reluctant/ apprehensive about this too.
Ha dsm, good job you have your specs on to save us...
Same though, he hadn't wanted to close the door on more children...
Op, I really don't know what to say, but I think whatever I did say wouldn't make any difference anyway tbh. Because it's not us you want to hear it from, it's Dh.
You need to talk, I know you have, but it hasn't resolved much or you wouldn't be on here.
It was a contraceptive failure that neither of you should take the blame for but the consequence bears equal responsibility to deal with which he is passing the buck to you.
I think you know what you want to do op, but are looking for reassurance and people to agree with you.
Dear Lemonbuzz I have driven a taxi so I do understand the tiredness that can come with this. I don't know what it's like to have a large family but yours sounds full of love.
I hope you can both get the real life help and support you both deserve to cope with this unexpected shock. I had the Mirena coil and loved it and it has a lower failure rate than the pill but it does fail and this is not your fault or something you did on purpose. Neither of you thought you were risking a pregnancy, why wouldn't you both be shocked and upset?
I hope you can get some individual or joint counselling to help you both cope with the way forward because whatever the outcome this pregnancy is a game changer for you.
Good luck to you all, I hope it works out xx
If you want to keep the pregnancy, you should - ultimately it's your call. But you may need to prepare to be a lone parent.
Hopefully he'll come round.
I agree that ultimately it's your decision, but I can certainly see your DH's point of view. But the Mirena is generally a very reliable form of contraception, and there is no point in putting blame on anyone now.
Sadly, in cases like these, it puts a real strain on the relationship regardless of the decision you make. It is hard to get past the resentment on either side and I think that tends to destroy relationships. As the previous poster says, you will have to prepare to be a lone parent. I'm a lone parent, with just one child, and that is hard. I can't imagine it with five or six children, and you won't get a lot in maintenance on a taxi driver's wage. But there are lone parents on here who have managed with that many dc and no maintenance at all. You will be strong for your children no matter what happens.
You probably need to do a lot more talking about this. It is an awful situation to be in. His reluctance at the moment may be a kneejerk reaction and a product of his fear and tiredness. If you were leaving the way open for a further child some time in the future, this is just bringing it forward. I don't know how you resolve this, however I would like to believe he'd come round as he sounds like a mostly decent bloke. To prevent it being the end outside help may be needed - try contacting relate.
This is really hard - I really feel for you.
I fell pregnant on the Mirena coil. The GP said it was a 1 in 100,000 chance.
I chose to have the baby (now my lovely 9yo DS!). I didn't really involve DH in the decision. It is my body, and I felt I have to look myself in the mirror evry morning, so the decision should really be mine. (I am totally pro-choice, BTW.)
DH was angry that I wouldn't really discuss it. To me, there was nothing to discuss. No logical argument would make me change my mind, I just felt I should have the baby.
Anyhoo, it wasn't madly easy for DH and me, and our relationship, particularly at first. I can't really give you any pearls of wisdom about how we got through it - we did sort of bumble through, at the time, and things have got easier over time.
I do know that if it had meant we would split up, I still would've made the same decision. I suppose that's the crux of the matter.
What if DC5 had been a twin as well?
Having a DC6 is not that different.
Oh Lueji, of course it is different. It's all very well when children are small. They become much more expensive as they get older. I have three kids and both my dh and I work fulltime in decently remunerated jobs and it's tight now they are in their teens/preteen.
I have a lot of sympathy with your dh's point OP. I don't think I could physically cope with any more children. He is probably worried sick too about how he is going to support and rear them. The pressure is largely on him to earn. The poor guy is sleep deprived and under pressure enough trying to keep 5 children as it is.
Yes, it's not your fault - but you wouldn't be pregnant by choice either would you? You have to think of your dh and the children you already have. Bringing another child into the world is going to diminish the resources of time, and finance, available for the children you have.
Either way one of you is going to have to compromise here, and it's a big thing to compromise on. I feel for you. I don't like abortion but am pro-choice, but if I were in your shoes I would consider it. Five children in this day and age is enough for anyone. Your dh says he can't cope. Listen to him. If he decided he really couldn't cope, could you cope on your own with 6 children? Think of it now when they are small, think of it when they are in their teens and wanting to experiment with life, or wanting to go to college/uni and there's no funds for them to do anything.
I'm sorry but I think you have a responsiblity to the family you already have. I think you have to place them and your dh above a potential baby, hard as it might be.
I also think you should arrange some counselling for yourself, and discuss it with professional advisers who have experience in dealing with situations like this.
Good luck with your decision. It is very difficult x
You have a raised chance of miscarriage with a Mirena coil, simply with it in, and also taking it out has risks attached. (And they'll want to take it out if you continue with the pregnancy IIRC).
In your shoes I would consider getting the coil taken out first, and seeing if I still was pregnant after that. (I imagine you may want a different form of contraception anyway after this one has failed you?)
I don't know if this is a realistic course of action though - my first point of call would be to the doctor, to say this is what I was considering and to seek advice.
As to whether you should consider a termination - only you can make that choice. It's not an easy thing to do, and may well affect you for a long time. (However having another child will also affect you of course!)
Neither are futures which you have chosen, but here you are. Only you can decide which future is best now you're in this situation, there is no objective right or wrong answer.
Touchmybum "I'm sorry but I think you have a responsiblity to the family you already have. I think you have to place them and your dh above a potential baby, hard as it might be."
That is your reading of the situation. I really don't think it's right or fair to tell the OP what she "has" to do. (Either way).
She doesn't "have" to do anything. It's her decision to make, and there are many factors to take into consideration. Her own feelings are important.
There is no right or wrong answer.
I disagree. I think once you are a parent you HAVE to consider your existing children in any decision you make, and the impact it will have on them.
In this instance, having another baby is going to impact on the whole family.
I agree, there is no right or wrong answer but a decision must be taken which is in the interests of everyone in the family.
Touchmybum you were basically telling her to have a termination, and it is no one's place to do that.
I am absolutely pro-choice. However it is a very sensitive subject and if someone feels pressured into having a termination that can stay with them for years, even if they would have decided that in the end themselves anyway. (Speaking from experience here sadly).
Yes of course she needs to consider her family, but she also needs to consider her own feelings on the subject, and this shouldn't be underestimated - as it's her who must live with it if she decides to terminate. Some people find this easy to deal with, others less so. Only the OP knows what's right for her and her family. And that might be a termination, but it might not be. We cannot say.
The reality is there will probably be both heartbreak and happiness whichever decision she takes. Where the balance lies in her particular circumstances, is not something as outsiders we can assess and tell her. It's incredibly unfair to attempt to do so IMO.
How are you to say that the impact will definitely be negative?
Of course Lemon is considering the entire family, as is her DH.
Goodness me, you cant have been more than 16/17 when you had your first child, and your dh 26/27? You were a child yourself!
Do you have any parents who can help out, that you can talk to in real life about this?
He is not an arse for not wanting a 6th child. He is sensible. He is working all hours as a taxi driver, he must be exhausted too...
Never ever have an abortion that you don't want.
You cannot undo it. Do not rush a decison like this. It clearly isn't what you want so give yourself time to be sure that you can live with it.
You aren't coming from an unbiased place then aufaniae. I am not telling the OP to do anything. I am merely giving my opinon and opinions were asked for.
I just felt that there needed to be another perspective, mainly because a lot of posters were calling her dh an arse.
He isn't an arse for knowing his limits. The OP obviously has to consider her own feelings, but not to the exclusion of her DH's feelings - or setting aside the impact of her decision on the children she already is responsible for.
Also, I advised her to speak to a professional counsellor. All of us here are bringing our own prejudices to the table.
I have a lot of sympathy with her DH, because I can understand his point of view. I also have a lot of sympathy with the OP because it's such an awful situation to be in.
I had this argument with DH when dd1 came along. I do not have it in me to have an abortion so refused. This still comes up in arguments (14 yrs later) even though he loves her to bits now.
Also had this argument when dd2 came along (I know, not good with the contraception!) and he threatened to leave. I knew that I would never be able to cope with having an abortion and would never be able to stay with him if I did so dd1 was better off if I had the baby, even if that meant DH leaving. He got his head round it eventually but it was a really long struggle and he has only just started to understand. He sees a pregnancy as being a possible baby, I see it as being an actual baby and, whilst there are good reasons for a termination, I needed much stronger reasons than he was able to give me.
Anyway, the point is that termination is something that people understand in different ways and getting a better understanding of how each if you undetstands it may make a big difference. You may still disagree but are less likely to resent each others choices.
I hope you find a resolution to this, it is so difficult.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Don't be pressured
You were going to have a 6th at some point anyway
DC5 could have been twins again but he was happy to plan that
It will be cheaper and easier to do it now rather than starting all over again with a 6th later on
but most importantly you do not want to terminate - so don't.
He isn't an arse for knowing his limits
It's not about his limits. According to the OP another child wasn't out of the question in the future. Well the future has just arrived. He can't have it both ways. Either he absolutely didn't want any more and he should have done something about it or it was still a possibility. Well here you are.
Good luck op. It's a rotten situation, I hope it works out for you all as well as it possibly can.
It's a hard call - but ultimately your decision to make.
Decide FOR YOURSELF -either way - for a moment just take your DH out of the equation and think through how YOU feel about the pregnancy.
Not much help I know - ultimately though he could and some might argue SHOULD have had the snip already ....... a thread for another time .....
A termination is final and not without physical and emotional strain on you.
I've regretted having one in my 20's and honestly haven't got over it - but that's me. Personally if I were in that situation now then I wouldn't do it knowing how I feel now - 30 years down the line.
Offering you a hand to hold and a shoulder.
Just talk it through with as many people as you can trust
OP would you be able to cope financially with another DC?
With 5 already and planning for more in the future, will this LO really make much of a difference <fully aware i may be being naive>
Personally I think he is much more likely to love the child than you are to forgive him for the abortion.
Could you go for a scan and tell him about it and see if his reaction has changed? Maybe sit down together and devise a way in which it will work as a family 7 and look at a way of getting him more sleep.
I was 16 when I had dd1.
We do have a couple of drivers and trying to build our business bigger.
I've offered to get my taxi license.
He does get alot of time off work but when he is working he really works all out so he can have chunks of days off.
Having talked with him more today. He doesn't want to be father again. But doesn't want me to have an abortion. He is worried how he will cope. Worried about spending time fairly with all our dc's and worried about something happening to me during labour. When I had dd4 she was meant to be a homebirth but she was distressed and open her bowels in me was rushed to hospital. Luckily she was fine and I had her in the ambulance outside our house.
I just dont feel I will ever forgive myself or get over having an abortion
Sorry it should say. He doesn't want to be a dad again. But doesn't want me to have an abortion he would rather I had an abortion
The big issue with respect to the impact on your other dc is how this impacts your relationship with your DH, whatever you ultimately do you need to reach some form of accord. Children pick up on atmosphere between their parents and it can be very damaging.
I hope you manage to work things out between you.
I haven't really got anyone else to talk to.
He spoke to his mum who said to him don't do anything you will regret. Which I think he is taken on board and is thinking about.
The only person I would want to talk to is his mum which would be unfair on him or my granddad. I don't feel like I could talk to my granddad as he isn't in the best of health and I wouldn't want to worry him.
I couldn't talk to my mum as I feel she would unfairly have a go at dh.
We are both so stressed out about this.
When he left for work a little while ago we kissed and cuddled and told each other that we still love each other.
Sure, he'd rather you have an abortion.
But what will he do if you don't?
I've asked him what will happen if I don't have an abortion. He just said he doesn't want to lose me or his children.
Regarding what will happen during labour, maybe not try for a homebirth?
And it sounds a good idea for you to get a taxi licence.
That's why I think you need to talk to a counsellor, someone totally impartial, but experienced Lemonbuzz.
Side note I know but omg you are so young to have so many children! Your body could do with a rest... My daughter is nearly 16. If there was a man 10 years older than her getting her pregnant, I wouldn't be happy, I have to say. I could be your mother. If you were my daughter I would be extremely worried about you.
That was a theoretical child GwendolineMary. This is an actual one.
Do you have family support eg minding the kids, Lemonbuzz?
It is not a good situation. But I don't think the OP's DH should be slammed for not wanting more children when they have five already. But on the other hand she should absolutely not have an abortion if she doesn't want one.
Marina coil - 20 min of agony going in, think I'd notice if it came out . Besides, if you er.. have a fumble up there, it's quite easy to feel the strings (they are quite noticeable) They do usually advise at the clinic that you check on a regular basis, so you know it's there?
Being a parent is great at times, but I would hate it to be the be all, as there are so many other enjoyable things to balance life with, so I could not imagine having anywhere near the amount you already have, therefore, would not be the one to advise now it's already happened. For the future though, best to arm yourself with the facts about contraception if consequences are life-changing.
...that was meant to be an OMG face ??
OP he'll come round.
I know its not fashionable or modern or mumsnet to say so.
Apparently we are all supposed to have done a big pros and cons list before each baby.
But babies do just decide to come along.
And women tend to start coping straight away.
But men do tend to start coping when baby comes along.
He will too.
Please don't be pressured into something you don't want
To continue with or end a pregnancy is one of the only situations where you cant always be 'fair' or logical, the decision is entirely yours
Take some time, get some impartial councilling, it must still be such a shock to find yourself in this situation
I have six dc and the change between five and six wasn't really that noticeable but of course each family and situation is different and for some it would be a step too far
this looks useful
OP I don't think either of you are in the wrong here. You really need to get away from all the DC's even if just for an hour together to chat an hug and cry and laugh and work out what is best for you both.
He seems like a real genuine man and I think you are obviously a
super fertile great match
Just out of interest would your perspective change if this pregnancy turns out to be twins? If you don't already know that is
No contraception is 100%.
He carried on having sex with you.
He accepted the risk of pregnancy.
And a 25/6 year old getting a 15/16 year old pregnant speaks volumes.
I know it cannot be compared, but I had a MMC 3 years ago and I still have to think about the baby I lost. Do you think you would always think about the baby you aborted? You feeling guilty could also break your family up. You may never forgive yourself or your husband.... I am only saying that since you seem to feel very strongly about this.
You and your husband need to sort out your contraception situation and talk - properly talk. I think the "snip" for one of you is necessary
He doesn't want to lose me or his children sounds a bit like passive agressive blackmail to me.
I read something wise on here, someone posted to another person in your situation, if you do think it is the beginning of the end as you said, if you have an abortion it's an end with regrets and anger and nothing else, if you have the baby it's the end but with another person for you to love and love back.
I put that really badly, they expressed it very well. Sorry, I hope you get the gist.
narked op is 24. her eldest is 7. this makes her 17 when eldest was born. where are you getting 15 from?
yes, where are you getting 15 from?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
She was 16 when she had DD1, you're 16 for a year, and pregnancy is only 9 months. Doesn't mean she was 15 when she got pregnant.
He is being totally honest. He doesn't want a sixth child. He doesn't think he can cope. He says it's your choice. I don't see how he could be fairer. What are you going to do? It's obviously sad and hard for you but please ignore the people who tell you he's an arse.
OP says DD1 is "nearly eight" and that she herself is 24. DD1 was plausibly conceived while OP was underage. I don't think many of us would be thrilled if our underage daughters got pregnant by a man a decade older.
But that is totally irrelevant to the matter at hand, isn't it? They've been together as long as my DH and me which makes them solid IMHO
Why are so many posters so desparate to paint the OP's DH as a complete bastard/arse?
Well it's a moot point now, they are 8 years down the line, and it's irrelevant to the situation at hand.
IMO this is a decision for the head, not the heart.
I don't think pulling apart their relationship is going to help op here. She wants advice & guidance on her situation, not bickering about their ages when she conceived her first child.
Why are so many posters so desparate to paint the OP's DH as a complete bastard/arse?
Because it justifies their out dated view that men don't matter when it comes to how many children make up a family.
Why are so many posters so desparate to paint the OP's DH as a complete bastard/arse?
Maybe because of their own opinions/experiences of men.
I think he's right and would be worried how your time would be spent giving each and every child you've already got some one to one attention.
I am 28 and have 2 children 8 and 9 months, I think its hard enough dividing my time between the pair of them as it is.
I think you would be extremely selfish to have another. Sorry.
Very few people have called OP's H an arse. Most posts have been reasonable advice taking both points into consideration. In what era have women been the ones to decide how many children were to be brought into a family? Fathers have an equal say as to whether or not to have sex (which always carries the risk of pregnancy). The OP did not plan to make a baby any more than her husband did, but a baby has been created - for which they are both equally responsible.
The mother has the final say when it comes to abortion because she is the one who will feel the pain, one way or the other, but that doesn't mean she should have to face the pregnancy alone, as if she was the sole creator of the child..
OP - I wish you the best or luck with your decision and hope your partner can be there to support you either way. As I said this must be tough on both of you.
babyborn that isn't really helpful tbh. your personal difficulties with your 2 children should have no bearing on whether another family has more children or not. this isn't a case of who is right and who is wrong. it is such a personal decision and can only be made by the two parents involved. only their feelings on the matter are valid. calling OP selfish just doesn't help.
Im still reading taking everything in.
Babyborn just because you find it hard to spread your time for one to one hard doesn't mean I do.
My 3 oldest are at school all day dd3 is at nursery 2 mornings a week when dd4 is in bed dd3 gets time everyday. When dd3 and 4 are in bed for the night at 18:15 I spend one to one with my twins once they are in bed at 19:15 my dd1 gets one to one until her bed at 20:00 that is just during the week.
Once every 2 - 3 weeks my mum has two of the the oldest on a rotation so the one who is here gets a movie and popcorn night.
I am not selfish this is the hardest thing I am having to go through.
My children get loads of love care and all the time they could want.
Please don't call me selfish when you have no idea how my children are looked after or how much one to one time they have.
you really dont have to justify your decision or situation to anyone here lemon.
i hope you and DH are able to have a good talk about this and reach a decision that isn't too difficult for either or both of you.
What a tough tough thing for both of you to have to go through. I cannot imagine what it is like. I do think he is being v hard on you in what he is saying. You say you feel you have no choice, to me that must mean he is putting you under considerable pressure. Which is not consistent with his statement that it is your choice. I think poster who are saying he is an arse are reacting to that dynamic.
I hope you find a way through. I think I would find it next to impossible to abort a child conceived with a man I loved, when we had other children together, no matter what the finances. You need to think v carefully about how you would cope.
Could the 2 of you get some counselling? It's easy spiral in panic and distress and make decisions that will be v hard to live with afterwards.
For me I think it would be a v emotional decision. Impossible to really know I guess. But you clearly think it would be manageable.
What if you decide to keep the baby, and your dh can't come to terms with it.... though you stay together - and he resents the child when it comes along?
I am 28 and have 2 children 8 and 9 months, I think its hard enough dividing my time between the pair of them as it is.
I though you had an 8 month and a 9 month old.
I think you would be extremely selfish to have another. Sorry.
Extremely selfish? FGS
Lots of families have 6 or more children and they are happy.
Having lots of siblings can be great.
OP, you said earlier that he didn't want to lose you or the children. I truly think he will come round to this pregnancy, he is a good man. He will love it just as much as the others. And for heavens sake, try not to get into this position again. You both need to sit down and discuss contraception!
Hope it works out for you
Just thinking aloud but what about suggesting having the baby but agreeing to one of you getting sterilised afterwards. ?
It might be easier for you DH to get his head around this if he knows it will be the last baby in your family.
Yes, I think that's an idea DontEven. If you could both know this would definitely be the last of the family I think that might help - especially if he'd agree to a vas ?
Re the attention comment -
I think one of the best things about small famillies (along with more money to go round) is that the children get more attention from their parents.
I also think that one of the worst things about small families is that children get too much attention from their parents!
Children really dont do better/ feel better with lots of attention, they feel suffocated.
And parents who struggle to let go and are over involved and hyper-critical: always parents of 1/2
Parents of more than that have the edges knocked off them so to speak. Their children have more freedom to be individuals.
Go for it OP, you and your husband are great parents, things will be ok.
Children really dont do better/ feel better with lots of attention, they feel suffocated. And parents who struggle to let go and are over involved and hyper-critical: always parents of 1/2. Parents of more than that have the edges knocked off them so to speak. Their children have more freedom to be individuals.
Firstly, where is your proof of this? Sounds like a load of made up bull to me.
Secondly, don't admonish families with only 1 or 2 children to make a point about how larger families can work wrt attention.
Why do that!?
6 children at 24 and your trying to sugarcoat the situation by giving advice that "its your body, your choice" blah blah blah. This is real life for god sake!!
I don't have difficulties with my two time wise, I said its very hard to divide the time between them. Of course it is, and whoever says it isn't is a liar.
Your husband has the right to feel the way he does and you need to grow up. Sleeping on the sofa and sulking because you didn't get the reaction you wanted isn't going to help either. He has the right to feel the way he does and I'm not Suprised he feels this way.
Your poor children.
babyborn you really are being very cruel to the OP.
yes this absoloutely real life. the OP knows it, she is living it. whatever issues you clearly have do not put them on the OP's shoulders. it is not your decision. you have no say in this. why are you so angry with OP?
At 24 you are at your fittest to run after 6 small children surely?
I know lots of excellent younger mums. And more than a few shit older ones. Let's not stereotype.
Big families are not fashionable at the moment and that is all. Having said that, the thought of 6 teenagers at a go... Although I know a poster on here who has just that and seems really happy!
"I don't like the sound of this man who keeps fathering children on a teenager when he's in his late twenties, and who thinks he has the final say on your reproductive rights."
My mother had five children, she could have handled a few more as well. Nobody was left out. We have a loving big family.
OP you are going through one hell of a journey, from being 16 years old to 24 and 6 kids.
Perhaps you need to take more control of that journey now, and make sure that you can see a good future for all of you.
I don't blame dp for not wanting a 6th baby if he is working all hours and exhausted.
I wish you luck with whatever you decide, I'm sure you will work something out between you.
Oh come on. It may be your body, but the kid is made from both of you. Maybe he doesn't want to support some kid
It's not some kid, you asshole.
It's a pregnancy they both accidentally created.
Her body (& mind) gets to experience the traumas of pregnancy & termination in a far more immediate way than his, so
surpisingly she gets the final decision.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Angry? I'm not angry at all, just feel sorry for the poor children she has already got. Knowing they will be cast aside for the latest addition to the family...until the 7th one arrives.
How is it possible to care for 5 children, wash clothes, clean the house, make breakfast, lunch, dinner, financially support, take them to seperate activities, pay for all the mod cons they will want in order to have what other children have, organise and pay for 6 separate birthday parties, do homework most nights, bath, take out for meals, read stories and put to bed, have one on one attention....and do this with every child for 16-18 years. This is not normal life. This is manic. Children are a blessing that should be enjoyed and cherished and beable to have the attention they deserve. To add another child into the mix is beyond crazy.
Don't want to hear that doesn't matter if house isn't spotless, kids become independent after a certain age so don't need as much attention, they are in school now so have time then for the others etc etc etc rubbish. It shouldn't be made difficult for them to have your time. On top of all this where is your time for your husband and marriage? Does the marriage end there because he's never at home because he's working his socks off to support his wife and his 6 children and you don't have time for him when he's home, or he's tired from constantly working and is miserable and exhausted and your both arguing....in front of the kids.
His thoughts and emotion has to come into this too
Babyborn just go and have a cup of tea somewhere, please. We hear you loud and clear and so far it's patronising gobshite.
I have 5 children, they are all loved and well cared for. Like OP I have one set of twins.
I'm trying to imagine what I would do in your situation and I would definitely keep the baby, but I think you are going to be very stretched. 6 makes cars difficult, but those are just details. I think you will have to face the fact Dh might not cope and think about wether you could manage without him.
I think you made a very sensible decision browneyedpixie. I think it must be a hellish thing to do but so long as you hold onto the reasons why you did it, I do think you will heal.
I've a certain sympathy too with your points BabyBorn even if I might not have made them in quite the way you do!
Another thing Lemonbuzz... when do you ever get to be you? You've been a mother since you were a child. If your eldest daughter follows in your footsteps you could be a gran in your early 30s and find yourself helping to rear grandchildren alongside your own younger children. Why make life harder for yourself...
"How is it possible to care for 5 children, wash clothes, clean the house, make breakfast, lunch, dinner, financially support, take them to seperate activities, pay for all the mod cons they will want in order to have what other children have, organise and pay for 6 separate birthday parties, do homework most nights, bath, take out for meals, read stories and put to bed, have one on one attention....and do this with every child for 16-18 years."
you are projecting your own inabilities onto someone else. OP is not you. she is clearly capable of caring for 5 children. just because you couldn't doesn't mean others are shit parents. you stick to what you can cope with and let others set their own limits.
why did you have a second child? your poor first, how selfish of you to have another knowing you would be reducing the amount of time and money available for your first.
you clearly haven't a clue what you are on about so i'm ignoring you from now on. i'd advise OP to aswell. there's nothing helpful in your angry ramblings.
I'm just amusing myself at the way they euphemistically used to call it family planning. It meant nothing to me at the age of 16, families were what other people did.
How did this all start Lemonbuzz? He was a lot older than you when you first met, I'm actually surprised you're still together at all.
baby born just because you couldn't cope with more than two children doesn't mean others casnt. I have five and cope fine, they all get individual time, help with homework etc and they are all bright, happy children. Tbh once you get past three it doesn't make much difference housework wise.
Op was using contraception, no contraception is 100% so her husband knew pregnancy was a possibility.
And sod off with the 'cast aside for the latest addition' that isn't what happens at all!
Op I think you and your dh may benefit from talking to somebody neutral, maybe a councellor is at mariestopes etc.
Ultimately if you dont want an abortion you shouldn't have one.
Maybe the pair if you can right down your fears and try and come up with a plan etc.
why would OP be raising her grandchildren?
does it matter how it all started?
What a horrible situation you are in, there's no right or easy answer here. he doesn't want another baby you do.
I think all you can do is keep talking to one another.
I have four DC and am at the limit of what I can cope with, life's do hard with 4 so hats off to anyone with more. I absolutely do not want anymore, neither does my DP he says he's going to get the snip but never seems to get around to it, I'm not waiting on him, I'm on the Pill, i also take it for painful periods but it's my choice I control my fertility. If I were to get accidentally pregnant I would keep the baby but never want to be in that situation.
I know that doesn't help you really. I personally think you need to keep this baby, the thought of aborting it seems too much for you to best. I think you need to explain what it will do to you to your DH. Best of luck I hope everything turns out ok for you both x
I grew up with a family who had 6 children, all much loved and very well looked after although the house was always a guddle, but so is mines and I only have two.
All grew up well balanced lovely people, and the oldest daughter went on to have six sons herself. Which shows she didn't feel being one of six had been a bad thing surely.
I realise this is only one example, but to say no one can raise six children well...as I said, it's not fashionable to have larger families at the moment, but to say it can't be done properly is utter poppycock.
Sorry grew up friends with a family who had six children.
Another thing Lemonbuzz... when do you ever get to be you? You've been a mother since you were a child. .... Why make life harder for yourself
I tend to agree with this, of course the "its your body, your choice" line will be rolled out (and it has been)..I just get a feeling about this, thats all....its great that you are a committed family for the sake of you both and your kids OP, I just don't know.
Times have changed though - it used to be that people had big families, they had little choice - the kids all kinda reared each other and as no-one had anything much, they more or less didn't know any different.
Of course people do rear big families but it's best if both parents are committed to that.
I can't stop thinking about my eldest who is around the age you must have been when you first got pregnant Lemonbuzz... and while she is a very sensible, organised child, she is just that, a child. You've been having baby after baby since you were a child, and now your dh isn't on board with you to have another one...
You do have to ask yourself, are you going to put having this baby ahead of your relationship with your dh, and his relationship with the kids you have already, as their father?
God it's hard isn't it! I can't stop thinking about you.
From a personal point of view, as I grew up, I didn't need that much parental attention. I did love being with my siblings and it's still great.
A second child, even a third, will cause more disruption to the existing children than a 6th in a family with 5.
A 2nd child will take half of the available resources (not strictly, but for argument sake) when the 1st is used to having it all, whilst a 6th will only take 1/6, when the others are already used to having only 1/5. The others are already used to sharing.
The eldest is 8, which can already be a big help to tap on.
Thank you touchmybum, I've removed the post as feel i could be outed.
I agree with everything you are saying.
I'm really disappointed in some replies on this thread. No-one here should be suggesting that the OP have an abortion 'for the sake of her or her family' or any other reason. The thread title says she does not want an abortion. She needs advice on how to help her husband come to terms with this unexpected pregnancy. That is all. Those who think this is a thread for a light-hearted discussion about the negatives of having a larger family or starting a family young or age gaps in couples are in the wrong place.
You are sending the wrong message saying that the OP is choosing a new baby over her husband/ family. She is not. She did not choose to have a baby right now. The thread title is not "I want a 6th baby, my husband doesn't. What should I do?". This pregnancy already exsists through no fault of either parent. The OP is not choosing to make another baby she is (possibly) choosing not to have an abortion. Different things entirely.
I've seen a situation just like this up close. The father said he couldn't cope with another baby and that if she did continue with the pregnancy he would leave. They had the baby. He didn't leave- because he is a good man who loves his wife an family. The father loves the new addition like all his others and can't imagine life without her.
I know that OP's situation may turn out differently but I just wanted you to hear a happy anecdote.
By the 6th child you may already have everything you need. Apart from nappies babies don't cost all that much if you're sensible.
People were wrong to call you OH an arse. He is human and is entitled to feel worried and anxious and it's right that he should express his true feelings but he shouldn't force or coerce you into having an abortion. As soon as you decide to continue with the pregnancy, or not if the case may be, then he needs to support you as if he had an equal say in creating the child (which, of course, he did).
I think op you need to have conv with dh re whayt will actually happen if u have abprtion or have baby. .. prob u both need tp do this At counselling. Fwiw, I can see ur dh point of view.
Re prev poster-why r u trying to control what people say-bizarre
I'm suggesting people stick to the issue at hand. The fact that some posters don't agree with bigger families is clouding they're ability to give the OP helpful advice. I agree that the OP and her DH could benefit from unbiased help that they could get from counselling.
id go for a termination in your case tbh.
Well, obviously the OP should do what she feels is best for her and her family. I don't think her husband is an arse either. Six children at any age, let alone 24, is a lot. I also think that babyborn makes some good points - albeit clumsily.
I am pro-choice - and the choice comes down to the person who is pregnant, AFTER assessing all the issues.
I also believe that every child should be wanted by both parents.
You cannot and should not have an abortion if you are against it for yourself. The only thing I can think of if there is a pregnancy is to put the child up for fostering or adoption - but that is yet another can of worms.
please, whatever happens, one of you get sterilised.
But bourbonsandtea, love ur name, who made you judge of other peoples advce? Surely u post in a forum to get lots of advice, opinions not just one persons approved list?
ll31 Fostering or abortion would be totally impractical in OP's situation. Her children would see her pregnant and see her come home with no baby, that would damage the current children more then losing a bit of attention!!
Yeh it's not my place to tell people what they can and can't say on a public forum but it's a shame some people aren't more sympathetic towards the OP and her current situation. I think the best advice here has been to talk to her husband and maybe look into emergency counselling. Only they really know what they are capable of as a family.
I think bourbons was well thought out. It's extraordinary how negative people are about larger families and young Mums. OP will know that already and though its sad she has to sift through that to get the support she's looking for I suspect she is a strong woman and will work this out.
Is the situation really so different from any woman who finds herself pregnant through contraception failure and wants to keep the child while her partner doesn't?
It does my head in when people say, "babies don't cost that much"!! They aren't babies forever! Children are a huge expense!
And it is different zzzzzz because there are five other smallies to consider.
He didn't want to have the snip?! So, basically it's ok for you to have to go through an abortion if contraception fails and live with it just so he can avoid a couple of days with peas on his balls. I did have sympathy for you both up until I read that...he didn't want the snip? Fine, he shouldn't have been having sex with you then.
Lots of conflicting advice here.You are very young and at the height of your fertility. When your first child is 18 you will only be 34-the age at which many are sarting their families-even this new baby would be approaching secondary school so you and your dh could have many many years of baby free life together.
I dont think you really want an abortion therefore you shouldn't have one. You need to talk to him again and perhaps suggest that now is time for him to have a vasectomy so there wont be any more surprises.
This baby was an accident.You thought you had taken adequate precautions but they failed now you need to ensure there is no chance of another failure and he needs to use condoms from now on.
Sorry OP, I replied with a knee-jerk reaction when I re-read my post (but I'm still mad that he wasn't willing to take any responsibility for things) Anyway...only you know yourself and your family. If you don't want an abortion you don't want one and he'll either stay or leave. Perhaps he's in shock right now? TBH my OH was a bit of an arse but he came around (he had a bit of a short sharp shock that brought him to his senses). I'm really sorry you are going through this - it is a very hard situation with no easy solution.
This will probably seem like just a crappy platitude, but so far in life I've found it ends up turning out to be true - no matter how dire a situation seems at the time you will get through it and you will be happy again.
There is also the world-overpopulation argument. Half the baby girls born this year in the developed West will live to be a hundred. Just imagine the strain of that on the planet.
That's a particularly shit reason to have an abortion alice
'Another thing Lemonbuzz... when do you ever get to be you? You've been a mother since you were a child. .... Why make life harder for yourself'
How patronising! This person is 24 and an adult who does not want a termination. 'Husband wants an abortion,' well, guess what? He can't have one! If he were that adamant he should have used a condom every time on top of her having the Mirena.
greylady makes a very good point that in ten yes time with the children older, at high school etc you will have many years to pursue a career, do some training etc.
I think an outside party is counsellor is a good idea for both of you.
Good luck op in whatever choice you make, make sure its YOUR choice xxx
Alice, while that is true, there aren't enough children born in Western European countries to replace their own population.
The problem of overpopulation is more acute in developing, or newly developed countries, where survival rates are increasing but family size is still large.
'I think you would be extremely selfish to have another. Sorry.'
I disagree. I have 5 DC. First 4 by 25. Would have been 5 by 25 but sadly lost a DD. It is perfectly possible to be a good parent to this many and more-lots of people do it. For me personally I am done at 5 because of the sheer expense (I have teenagers!) and chaos of life along with my health issues. But it is a good chaos and kids are happy and doing well and do not go without. But if OP was already considering another in the future then she obviously felt 6 was manageable to them/her? Just because you couldn't cope with more than 2 doesn't mean others cannot.
Lemonbuzz, you are pregnant. It has happened and there is no way of making it unhappen. Whatever happens next, this has changed your life.
Please speak to your DH about your fears for your future relationship and listen to his. And please get some counseling. It will help you explore the consequences of each choice and find the least painful option in the long run.
Unfortunately for you and your DH, the short run is looking difficult. Difficult, but not impossible. I wish you both strength in the time ahead.
Lemonbuzz sheeesh there are some people with axes to grind here!
I hope they're not getting to you.
Please, don't do anything rash you will regret. Be easy on yourself, take some time to think it over and come to a considered decision. The suggestion of counselling is a good one I think.
It's funny how all my "haters" all have 5 children or more. Phah.
The OP has gone now...so really who cares anymore. The decision is hers.
I had 3, BabyBorn. One died and we won't be having anymore. I think your comments are patronising, condescending, spiteful and smack of jealousy and mean-spiritedness.
'It's funny how all my "haters" all have 5 children or more. Phah. '
I'm not a 'hater' I merely disagree. Maybe we actually know what we are talking about though, having experienced it? I was terrified going from 2-4 (twins) but once you do it and get used to it it doesn't seem that bad. 5 doesn't seem many to me now although most people seem to think it is a lot when I tell them I have 5 (they did the same to 4).
I hope you are okay op?
Please make sure the final decision is YOURS & yours only as it is you that will have to live whichever decision you choose.
Very sorry you are going through this x
I fell pregnant with number 5 on the coil, it was a shocker.
My dh didn't want any more kids and he was on the waiting list for the snip. After they removed the coil I was told I would likely miscarriage, she is 4 years old now.
Dh didn't think he could cope with another child as he struggles with the four we had then and I wasn't sure. I booked a termination but couldn't go through with it. I thought it would be the end of us but we worked through it and I am so very glad the coil failed now.
It was an awful time, very awful so I feel for you, I really do.
Just keep talking x
I only have one, but I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how difficult it is to go from 5 to 6.
How can you tell how people will cope with more children if you only have 2, BabyBorn?
I think your comments just reflect how difficult you find to parent, not what happens in most families, or large families.
And going back to your first post, why do you have to divide your time? Perhaps because yours are of different ages, but when children are close in age, it's easier to share activities. And they entertain each other quite a lot.
Sorry I haven't been back before.
Thank you for all your replies. I have been reading them and have read some out to dh.
We have had a horrible time.
But the short story is after a lot of talking and some arguments lots of crying and heart to hearts. Dh understands why I cannot go through with an abortion.
He is going to support me 100%. We love each other too much to walk away and split our family up.
We have been more loving towards each other.
I have cancelled my bpas appointment.
We have made an appointment to see a doctor about dh having a vasectomy or me being sterilised after I have given birth. We are also going to talk about counselling.
We are going to give it our best to make our relationship work.
Thank you again for all your advice and opinions.
I also have a doctor's appointment on Tuesday to find out what's happen to the coil
Oh op so glad you and dh have talked, the counselling is a good idea, I hope all goes well for you xx
That's great news.
Not necessarily about keeping the baby (although I am on the "keeping field"), but more that you managed to talk about it and for him to support your decision.
I'm sure it will be hard, but if you are that strong as a couple, you will certainly manage.
I'm sure the older children will take a protective, almost parental role.
I hope all goes well.
particularly when the 6th child becomes a millionaire and supports the entire family
I am so glad you came to a decision together.
I have had TWO fallen out without me knowing Mirenas, so it is entirely possible, bestsonever.
I really feel for the two of you and I am pleased you have come to a decision together. You both sound sensible and loving. It is great that you have done this quickly rather than drag it out. I am sure you may both feel a bit raw for a while but you have plenty of time to relax into the pregnancy and look forward to the new baby.
I hope everything goes well.
I'm so pleased to hear that, OP. Hugs to you and good luck!
I'm so glad you are in it together, your post sounds so must happier. Good luck to you all.
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