Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

would you date a transgendered man?

(481 Posts)
ecofreeek Thu 10-Jan-13 19:02:47

I am in my late 30's and single (divorced). Recently though work I met a man who seemed really nice. We flirted a bit and last weekend he asked me out for a drink. It went really well, nice snog! and we arranged to meet for dinner this week

At dinner he told me that basically he used to be a woman. He has had testosterone treatment for many years and both breasts removed and a hysterectomy. But not the surgery that makes a penis...

I really like him. But I'm a bit freaked out. I guess that's why he told me 'early' in our dating... I dont want any more children s thats not an issue... its the whole man thing - he looks like a man, acts like a man and I would never have guessed that biologically he is not a male...

the sex thing ....

would you date a transgendered man >?

TheWheelies Thu 10-Jan-13 19:06:13

No, I couldn't.

Seabright Thu 10-Jan-13 19:06:39

I might, hard to say though. Is he planning on having penis construction surgery?

Are his friends & family aware of his situation? If not, are you comfortable with keeping this sort of secret?

Apocalypto Thu 10-Jan-13 19:09:15

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Portofino Thu 10-Jan-13 19:15:27

i am with Apocolypto on this.

strumpetpumpkin Thu 10-Jan-13 19:17:17

i would be fine with it

Jemma1111 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:20:04

I couldn't but its how you feel that's important. If you do decide to I imagine you would have to be prepared for a stressful journey .

HecatePropolos Thu 10-Jan-13 19:21:50

I don't know.

I've typed about 5 different answers out but the truth is that I haven't a clue.

Teeb Thu 10-Jan-13 19:24:30

I don't think I could, mainly because sex is an important aspect of a relationship to me.

Grumpla Thu 10-Jan-13 19:25:16

If I were attracted to him before I found out I don't reckon it would really stop me fancying him.

I'd have a few glasses of wine and see how the sex works out before jumping to any conclusions. I'm sure you can still have plenty of fun without a penis, but might find it problematic if he isn't happy being naked etc.

Conflugenglugen Thu 10-Jan-13 19:28:31

If everything else were going well, I would have sex with him to find out whether I could sustain a relationship with him. You never know until you try ...

PurityBrown Thu 10-Jan-13 19:29:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDarkestNight Thu 10-Jan-13 19:31:47

I would be fine with it, I think. Although in practice, who knows? I guess it depends how open you are, and how confident he is, about sex. If he's nice, and you like him, it's surely worth a shot?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 19:34:08

I'd be OK with it. People are just people, and what counts is whether they are nice or not (and in the case of dating, whether they are attractive to us or not). If you like him and he likes you, go for it. If you stop enjoying his company, call a halt to things but do so kindly. And BTW he's been brave, fair and honest in telling you straightaway, so respect him for that.

Apollonia6 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:34:37

No I couldn't.

Same as Teeb, sex is an important part of a relationship for me. So in this case, no.

AnyFucker Thu 10-Jan-13 19:37:15

"Why on earth would it be an issue ?"

How obtuse.

Yes, it would be an issue for me, because although I would support a person's right to change their body into anything they choose, it doesn't change the fact that biologically this is a woman.

GlitteryShitandDanglyBaubles Thu 10-Jan-13 19:38:08

I could, it wouldn't bother me at all. Male, female, any stage in between is fine with me.

But then I am bisexual.

I don't understand why it would seem to be more acceptable to some posters if a penis had been constructed?

AnyFucker Thu 10-Jan-13 19:38:14

Incidentally, Ecofreeek, are you a new poster on MN or did you name change for this thread ?

Naoko Thu 10-Jan-13 19:38:53

I think so. It's never come up, so I can't say for certain, but if I found him attractive and nice, then I'd like to think I'd get over the social conditioning that makes people feel a bit odd about it.

Why don't you get to know him better and see how things go, like you would with any other man you've recently met and find interesting? What do you have to lose?

ecofreeek Thu 10-Jan-13 19:39:09

thanks. Apocolypto I think that's really unkind. I don't think of him as 'mutilated' that's awful. He believes he was born to be male and takes hormones by injection. i think he has been through a lot of 'therapy' and assessments to have got to this stage. He has been living as a man for more than 10 years. His family obviously know , i'm not sure about friends. I'm pretty sure no one at work knows or i would have heard gossip/something.

The first issue for me is about sex - I am very heterosexual and have always enjoyed penetrative sex - I know we could use dildo's etc but ... how would it feel to have sex without PIV?

the next issue is about how you live with a big 'thing' like that without telling people. why do you NOT tell people? should you tell? is it anyone else's business ? ?

one part of me says - just don't get involved... but then I think that's bigoted, stupid and if I hadn't known/ didn't know Id be really excited that I had met someone I liked... and I feel shallow and silly.....

MushroomSoup Thu 10-Jan-13 19:39:23

I think if I truly saw him as a man, and the thought of him as a woman didn't make sense to me, I'd date him and see where it goes. I very much admire his honesty.

PurityBrown, I really don't see Apocalypto's views as being 'foul' or 'nasty'. It's just her opinion. Why is it any different to yours?

HugoDarling Thu 10-Jan-13 19:39:51

No, I couldn't.

TheBOF Thu 10-Jan-13 19:40:41

I could enjoy his company and be friends etc. but not sex, no. I'm too much about the cock really, and it wouldn't really be fair to pretend otherwise.

Maria33 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:41:20

I'd just go with it and see how it goes - I guess like any other new relationship. FWIW I know of couple where one partner came out as a pre-op transsexual quite a long way into the relationship (not hiding it, just youth and confusion) and they're still happily married post op...

Pigsmummy Thu 10-Jan-13 19:41:27

No I couldn't. Puritybrown there is nothing wrong with what was said by Apocalypyto said.

AvonCallingBarksdale Thu 10-Jan-13 19:41:45

Definitely not, I'm afraid. Rightly or wrongly, it would be the absence of a penis.

Astley Thu 10-Jan-13 19:41:54

No. I could pretend I might consider it, but in reality there is no way I actually would.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:42:17

No, I definitely wouldn't.

drownangels Thu 10-Jan-13 19:43:15

No I wouldn't.

No way, not for me. I dont want to have sex with a woman, and sex is a huge part for me.

She is female. She has just had her boobs removed. She still has a womb, and a vagina.

Sorry, just my opinion.

McNo Thu 10-Jan-13 19:44:34

I don't think I could but if i fell in love with the person then maybe I could based on loving the person not their gender.

msrisotto Thu 10-Jan-13 19:45:23

I agree with Apocalypto. To pretend otherwise is stupid.

StinkyWicket Thu 10-Jan-13 19:45:52

I honestly don't know.

I've had lots of disappointing PIV sex and much better non-PIV sex (all hetero though) so I don't think that would bother me so much.

I would like to think it wouldn't bother me at all, because in all honesty (and I know how shallow this makes me sound!) it would be other people's opinions and views that would bother me more than the actual physicalities.

That said, having never been in that situation I just don't know!

I would say, if you like him then go for it. If it works out, then brilliant, if it doesn't, then it's surely just a failed relationship for whatever reason than failed because he used to be a she?

I think a bisexual woman would find this a lot easier to deal with. Most (not all though) heterosexual woman need male genitals for sexual fulfillment in a relationship.

PurityBrown Thu 10-Jan-13 19:46:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ecofreeek Thu 10-Jan-13 19:47:29

I have name changed. Some people know me in RL . so to protect my privacy (and his if it goes further) It felt best.

I do very much admire his honesty and I think he is very brave to bring it up, just like that, over dinner ! I get the feeling that he is very much at ease with himself after many years of difficulty. He certainly seems very, mature and sensible.

I'm quite ashamed to say that if you had asked me, I would have said I couldn't do this. But I am thinking about it. Because I like him, and I did find him really attractive. But I don't want to start something I deep down feel uncomfortable with - because potentially I could hurt him - and he's been up front with me, I would like to be honest too.

MorrisZapp Thu 10-Jan-13 19:47:42

No way.

mellowcat Thu 10-Jan-13 19:47:49

I think I would be ok with it.

UmDieEcke Thu 10-Jan-13 19:48:32

What BOF said

Maria33 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:49:32

I am shock that so many people think it's ok to call a pre-op transsexual man a mutilated female. I too have reported the post. The ignorance displayed by some posters on here is blush

RyleDup Thu 10-Jan-13 19:49:39

If I was attracted to him anyway, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd give it a go and see how it works out.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 19:49:42

I'd certainly rather date a transperson than a fucking bigoted, closed-minded, heteronormative mundane, any day.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:50:22

Gender IS binary

and not wanting to sleep with a woman - even if she has taken great pains to look like a man - is not being "hung up", it's being heterosexual confused

xkittyx Thu 10-Jan-13 19:51:01

I've also reported Portofino's post. I'm quite saddened at the level of transgender bigotry displayed here.

Pickles77 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:51:24

I'm with BOF too I'm afraid.
I'd like to say if it was me in the situation id be open minded

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:51:36

we weren't asked whether we hate or want to persecute a pre-op transsexual man, we were asked whether we would like to sleep with one

why are accusations of bigotry flying around? I'm perplexed

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 19:52:17

No, gender isn't binary. This is a fact, not a politically correct opinion. People are born intersex and hermaphrodite - not many, but enough for it to be simply incorrect to insist that gender is binary.

PurityBrown Thu 10-Jan-13 19:52:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maria33 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:52:50

Yes but I don't think sexuality is binary. Anyway, good luck ecofreek. Let him down gently smile

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 10-Jan-13 19:53:26

Hello

While we think that this is a valid discussion, please bear in mind that we will remove transphobic posts.

CabbageLeaves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:53:30

I wouldn't Penises are quite important in my relationship. Not more, than anything else, but nonetheless important

Thewhingingdefective Thu 10-Jan-13 19:53:36

I would find it very weird, but as I am not in your circumstances I can't accurately say how I'd feel and what I'd do.

Just take it slowly and enjoy getting to know each other, but do be upfront and honest if his transgender is a problem for you.

xkittyx Thu 10-Jan-13 19:53:42

Gender isn't binary. Some people are born intersex. It's just that up till now they have been surgically altered, without their consent, to whatever sex their parents/the doctors have picked for them.
I also remember a case where an I think Spanish sportwoman was tested and had XY chromosomes. She had had no idea, seeing as how she had breasts and female genitalia.

CabbageLeaves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:54:00

One penis at a time I should clarify grin

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 19:54:19

It's not the people who say they wouldn't, themselves, want to have sex with a transperson - that's still bigotry but it's the sort of bigotry that's kind of allowable, in that it's up to any individual to choose who s/he would or wouldn't have sex with, on any grounds whatsoever. It's the bigots who can't stop themselves from making unneccessary nasty remarks about transpeople who are getting called on it.

Teeb Thu 10-Jan-13 19:54:19

I'm bisexual and have had sex with women and enjoyed it, but Purity PIV sex is all that for me which is why I lean towards relationships with men mostly.

Men with penises.

How is it bigotry?

I understand the concept, the idea. If this person had had full surgery and had a penis/no womb, it would be a different scenario.

The fact is, I am not homosexual, and to sleep with a person who had female organs would not be an option.

Nobody is judging the person. We are saying we couldnt have a hetrosexual relationship.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:54:29

agree Maria33 that sexuality isn't binary

but why is it wrong only to want to sleep with males who have male genitals? I don't think people deserve to be called fucking closed minded bigoted heteronormative mundanes for that confused

KidderminsterKate Thu 10-Jan-13 19:54:44

honestly i think I'd struggle with this. I would be able accept and treat them as a male but don't think I'd be comfy establishing any intimacy when the genitals are essentially female. I'll be honest and say I know little of gender reassignment but presumably he'd need clitoral stimulation to achieve climax and that's not something I could do. Has he had sex with a hetero female? would u feel comfy asking how that bit worked?

msrisotto Thu 10-Jan-13 19:56:30

Even if a penis were constructed, they're decorative, not functional right?

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 19:56:56

oh. well fwiw I agree that the "mutilated" comment was vicious and weird. But I can't agree that only wanting vanilla PIV sex is "bigoted", that's quite obviously bullshit.

SirBoobAlot Thu 10-Jan-13 19:57:15

I had 'friendship with benefits' with a woman a while ago who used to be man. Honestly can't say it was any different to any of the other women I have be involved with, except that she was better with her hands grin

He is a man. He has confided this in you, and you like him. You would be happy to pursue a relationship with him if he hadn't have told you this, so don't let the fact he has had an operation in his past change things now.

chibi Thu 10-Jan-13 19:57:39

is there an obligation to sleep with people you aren't attracted to, because they are nice, or have been through a lot?

those poster who would not sleep with a transman are saying it is the fact that this transman does not have a penis (but rather a vagina) that changes whether they would otherwise be attracted

is it bigoted to not find some people attracted? are lesbians bigoted because they do not sleep with men?

i think it needs to be dealt with sensitively as there are . people's feelings involved, but i can't see how fucking someone you are not interested in sexually is a good basis fir a relationship

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Teeb Thu 10-Jan-13 19:57:49

I stand corrected risotto but I believe they can be operated by some sort of inserted pump.

xkittyx Thu 10-Jan-13 19:58:36

I'm not taking issue with people saying they wouldn't sleep with a transgender person, your choice who you shag.
But if someone identifies as a man it's pretty disgusting to call them a "mutilated woman".
And there's also the fact that people are stating gender is binary which is just plain incorrect.

Maria33 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:59:29

Greensleeves - genuine question. Would you be ok if he was post - op with functioning penis? Not even ure if the technology really exists to do this to a satisfactory level yet, but in theory?

PurityBrown Thu 10-Jan-13 20:02:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bluestocking Thu 10-Jan-13 20:02:20

Greensleeves, gender is not binary. Most human societies (but not all) have traditionally imagined it that way. But significant numbers of people are born with intersex genitalia, without even mentioning the people who don't feel entirely at one with their socially defined gender roles.
OP, I personally would find this situation rather exciting.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 20:02:21

No one is saying the OP should sleep with this man if she doesn't want to. But there's a difference between declining a sexual relationship with someone for any reason whatsoever and being insulting about the person. If a man said, for instance, 'I wouldn't sleep with a fat bird', we'd call him on the rudeness, not the sexual preference.

TheDarkestNight Thu 10-Jan-13 20:03:47

Wow, I'm quite surprised at how many people think transphobia is acceptable. To clarify, it's not the people saying that they wouldn't sleep with a transgender man who are being transphobic. It's all this 'gender is binary', 'mutilated' business which is just horrid.

Honestly? No, I don't think I could be in a sexual relationship with a transgendered man. Like BOF, I appreciate the male sexual organs, and I think I would miss them. But this is abstract. If I met a man, was deeply attracted to him, thought he was a potential life partner etc....who knows?

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 20:05:18

OK, gender isn't binary. I had always thought that it basically was but that there were occasional variations (like red and white campion, occasionally you get one which is a mixture of the two?)

but I stand corrected and will not refer to it as binary in future, now that I see how important and emotive it is. My bad.

I still disagree that being heterosexual is bigoted though hmm

Caladria Thu 10-Jan-13 20:05:49

If I liked him, and fancied him, I guess I'd try to be as honest as I could and see how it went. He sounds like a brave and open man, and that's a decent start.

DifferentNow Thu 10-Jan-13 20:06:29

I also agree with what Apocalypto said. Her post was not transphobic.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 20:06:50

solidgold, is it the term "fat bird" that you find offensive, or the fact that the man does not feel sexually attracted to overweight women? Because lots don't. It's involuntary, isn't it, sexual preference?

TheBOF Thu 10-Jan-13 20:06:58

I'm not even saying I wouldn't have sex with the person if I was attracted to them, SGB. Just that I know I couldn't sustain it as a longterm relationship because I'd miss, well, important elements of what I like too much. And as it sounds like this situation would be moving towards a longterm/serious relationship rather than a fling, I wouldn't go for it personally.

AnyFucker Thu 10-Jan-13 20:07:21

I am not "hung up" PB, just because I don't agree with you.

Porkster Thu 10-Jan-13 20:08:54

No, I couldn't.

But if I liked him, I would hope we could be friends, anything more would not be an option.

LadyKinbote Thu 10-Jan-13 20:09:43

I think lots of people (wrongly) would run a mile on finding this out. The fact that you haven't proves that a) you're a nice person, and b) you are genuinely attracted to him. I think you should go on another date but be very honest that it's a lot to get your head around! He may have been hurt in the past so I think honesty is the best way to go.

drownangels Thu 10-Jan-13 20:10:09

I'd certainly rather date a transperson than a fucking bigoted, closed-minded, heteronormative mundane, any day.

I'd rather be by myself than date either.

AnyFucker Thu 10-Jan-13 20:11:03

OP, you haven't answered my question

ecofreeek Thu 10-Jan-13 20:13:10

Actually the sex thing is just one of my issues...

I have 2 DD. now they are young and obviously wouldn't meet anyone I dated for a while. But what about later? what would I tell them? would they need to know ?

I know I'm over-thinking this somewhat.

I didn't really ask about his plans wrt gender reassignment surgery tbh. I have no idea is a penis reconstruction could ever be functional or not. Just to clarify he said he had had a hysterectomy and both ovaries removed.

Re previous relationships. I know he has had one - he mentioned an ex partner. I didn't really ask more - I guess I COULD ask about how it "worked", but that seems a bit crass - after all I wouldn't ask any other man that, would I ? and lovemaking is different with different people even with us who have always been vanilla PIV heteronorms ( or whatever SGB called me)

ecofreeek Thu 10-Jan-13 20:14:07

which one AF ?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 20:14:15

Greensleeves: It's the intention to be rude that I'd object to. If you don't want to sleep with someone, fine, don't. But why speak about not just the individual but the whole category of individuals the person belongs to in ignorant, rude, nasty terms?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 20:15:33

Ecofreek - I wasn't calling you anything at all! It's the 'waah, waah, mutilated woman, yuk, make it go away' people that I was having a go at.

Kione Thu 10-Jan-13 20:16:15

if I really liked him I could date him, yes. but not sure if I could have sex with another pussy, puts me a bit off thinking it. I think it would be different if he had the operation. But the again I am quite adventurous, so I would try after a few glases of wine yeah, if you really really like him it might be easy to get used to, also strap-ons can be quite realistic I am told...

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 20:17:09

Well there are two issues there SGB - in this instance, the reason for answering in the general rather than the particular is because that is what the thread title is asking for.

As to the ignorant and offensive - there has only been one of those on this thread, and I don't think it was only that poster that had you spraying lava and spouting about mundanes (haven't heard you calling people mundanes in months, I was just thinking that this morning and now you've spoiled it!)

chibi Thu 10-Jan-13 20:17:20

so, ok to not want to sleep with particular transman, bigoted and not ok to not want to sleep with any transman

really?

AnyFucker Thu 10-Jan-13 20:17:25

Sorry, OP, I missed your reply.

I think the fact you have had to namechange to even post on an anonymous forum should tell you what you need to know, tbh.

We don't know you, and we don't know your partner. Or do you mean that some mumsnetters know who you are in RL, under your usual name ?

SorryMyCandyCaneLollipop Thu 10-Jan-13 20:18:50

My first instinct was that the absence of a penis would put me off

but

if I was dating a man who I really fancied and he revealed that he had lost his penis in a horrific accident, or had a non-functioning penis, I think I would carry on the relationship. The sex may be amazing and open your eyes.

OP I wouldn't worry too much about who you would need to tell etc (I also project things too far into a theoretical future) I would see this as a private matter, no-one else would need to know, surely?

ecofreeek Thu 10-Jan-13 20:19:15

yes, I mean some other posters know me and my usual posting name.

But you may be right, ...

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 20:22:22

Maybe it isn't the absence of male genitalia but the presence of female genitalia that is the turnoff, for a heterosexual woman?

I do think we should be able to explore this without being accused of hate crimes or dismissed as mundanes.

MooncupGoddess Thu 10-Jan-13 20:22:59

I don't know, actually. It might be rather fun, androgynous people can be very attractive. It would absolutely depend on the individual, though.

He is brave - I had a boyfriend once who had previously invited an attractive woman on a date, on which she mentioned that she was a transsexual. He pretended to be going to the loo and made a runner for it... I really felt for the poor woman when he told me this story, which I expect is a common experience for trans people.

SorryMyCandyCaneLollipop Thu 10-Jan-13 20:23:17

I think you need to be honest with him about your concerns, he has been honest with you. If you want to bring up the "how would sex work?" thing then just ask him honestly.

MooncupGoddess Thu 10-Jan-13 20:24:35

PS ecofreek - your DDs are bound to hear about transsexuality at some point, there are various films etc about it. I don't think that need be a massive deal if handled sensitively.

NomNomDePlumPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 20:25:51

i think you are overthinking it, op, discussing it with your dds is years away, if ever. do you want to sleep with him, even though you are unsettled by the strangeness, or has the strangeness overwhelmed your interest? because that's it for now, he may never have got past three dates even if he were born with the most functional penis imaginable.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Thu 10-Jan-13 20:28:42

I would date him if I fancied him but I'm not sure how much my opinion is worth as I like a very broad range of people. I do like my women to look like women though, when they are stripped off at least, and although probably about 90% of the sex I have with my DP (male) is not PIV then I still do like the fact that he has a cock. Sex with someone without a cock (I can only speak for women, never dated a trans man) is pretty awesome tbh, even with women who don't wear toys. I wouldn't worry about the sex thing at all, but it's hard to put yourself in the mindset of a hetero woman when you aren't one.

knitknack Thu 10-Jan-13 20:30:11

My gosh the ignorance displayed on this thread is SHOCKING! This isn't 'not hetero', this isn't 'a woman', this is a (by the sounds of it gorgeous!) man who happens to not have a penis - and that's exactly how you should approach it OP. Why don't you see how things go? I think his honesty with you is a large measure of his character, btw, he sounds amazing!!

ThePathanKhansWitch Thu 10-Jan-13 20:30:47

OP, I,m not sure. I guess only you know how you feel.

knitknack Thu 10-Jan-13 20:30:50

And, yes, for the record - a handsome, sexy man with integrity? Of course I bloody would!

JourneyThroughLife Thu 10-Jan-13 20:31:31

Personally, the transgender thing wouldn't bother me. It would only be a problem if the other person hadn't told me for a long while, then I'd feel a bit deceived. Good for him to say very early on in the relationship.

The questions I'd be asking myself would be, do I fancy him? Is he open, honest? Is he at ease with himself or hung up with lots of "issues" over gender (if so, it's likely I'd be taking on lots of complications)?

If he's open, at ease and comfortable in himself etc. then I'd go with the relationship and see what happens. I would make sure I was honest too and gently voice any doubts. When the time came I'd talk about sex and what I felt about it without a penis. It wouldn't be essential for me if everything else was great, but might become yet another issue if things weren't good - and I'd reconsider. Just like in any relationship really... If he couldn't talk openly I'd feel it was a sign of difficulties ahead but otherwise fine....

If I was you I'd give it a go and see what happens. Wrt your dd's kids are so much more accepting of these kinds of issues than people expect them to be

StinkyWicket Thu 10-Jan-13 20:33:50

OP regarding your post about your daughters - why would they need to know? Ever? None of my family know about my DHs genitalia, and what they 'assume' to know I couldn't care less about.

What would you normally divulge about a personal relationship?

DifferentNow Thu 10-Jan-13 20:35:29

Our views on transgender clearly vary wildly and I guess it comes down to whether the OP feels she needs to be able to define the relationship by one gender or another or whether she can simply be with the individual and accept them as a person rather than a gender.

teedeeuk Thu 10-Jan-13 20:37:37

I'm partnered with a Trans man who has transitioned recently after ten years together. He's the bravest, kindest most wonderful partner you could imagine.

Portofino Thu 10-Jan-13 20:37:50

I would just like to say that I am not transphobic, more that I believe that in the total misunderstanding of what gender means in current society. That people have to have operations to feel "normal" when they could just be themselves and be accepted and understood.

ErikNorseman Thu 10-Jan-13 20:38:12

I'd date and be attracted to a trans man in principle, but I couldn't be sexually involved with a vagina. It would turn me off. Plus I really like cock.
I saw a doc with a demonstration of a 'prosthetic' penis. It looked and functioned amazingly. I'm not sure how much actual fucking it could do but it certainly got hard and looked real. The clitoris was integrated into the penis so he could orgasm through stimulation. And the testosterone he took made him orgasm much more easily. Fun!

teedeeuk Thu 10-Jan-13 20:39:43

Portofino, with all due respect you don't know what you're talking about.

TwoFacedCows Thu 10-Jan-13 20:40:22

I think I would give it a go and see how it worked- the relationship bit not the sex bit! grin

I dont see any problem with it and he sounds very open and happy to talk, which will be helpful.

as for sex, I don't think there is any need to discuss previous partners - sex is as individual as the individual! - surely that is where all the fun is- working out what makes the other person tick! wink

what have you lost by seeing where it goes? - even if it goes no where at least you will have a new insight into a very different world!

PuddingsAndPies Thu 10-Jan-13 20:40:24

I'm not completely sure. I have no squeamishness about the trans issue in itself, nor would I worry what other people thought.
The two things that may concern me is how emotionally 'damaged' he might be (in the same way that I would have reservations about a serious relationship with a war veteran, for example), but you do say that he seems at ease with himself, which is really good to hear.
The other issue is the penis. I don't believe PIV to be necessary for sex, but I am not sure about how necessary it is for my enjoyment of sex - I have never had a sexual relationship without PIV being the main component. I suppose I would also be interested to know if he would be comfortable with me making him orgasm clitorally, or else what his preference was (I believe that some trans people actually prefer not to orgasm, or to orgasm very indirectly, because they don't feel comfortable with their biological genitals).

Overall, I think I'd be happy with the idea of this, but would have to keep my weight on the back foot until a couple of goes at sex, to see if it was going to work for me long term. I would have to be honest about these reservations with him in advance, obviously.

AnyFucker Thu 10-Jan-13 20:40:37

I don't understand this focus on his "integrity" and "honesty" in telling you "so soon"

As it seems clear to both of you that this could develop into more than a friendship, and this bloke doesn't have a penis, I think the "honesty" is rather essential and not something to be lauded, tbh

It is not really necessary to confirm whether your partner have a penis or not.

"This is my new boyfriend Peter, he doesnt have a penis, he has a vagina instead."

Or

Op: "Linda, this is is my new boyfriend Peter"
Linda: "Does he have a penis?"

OP, dont worry what people will say, or what your daughters reaction is going to be. Genitals are rarely discussed.

Portofino Thu 10-Jan-13 20:42:58

Maybe not. I don't claim to be an expert. I just answered the OPs question, and explained why I thought that. I don't mean it as a denigration of TransOp people at all.

DiamondDoris Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:45

Haven't read all the thread yet but no, I wouldn't. I don't put much emphasis on PIV sex in my relationship with a man who has a penis (neither does he) BUT I like the aesthetics of male genitalia, it has nothing to do with transgendered people being born into the wrong body. But that's just me.

neontetra Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:45

I haven't personally, but my friend dated and slept with a pre-op transgendered guy. She is as far as I know totally hetero, but said she really enjoyed the sex, and that it lasted longer than most other sex she'd had!
I'm rambling. Why not go on a few more dates with him, no need to rush into sex if it doesn't feel right yet, and if in time you feel you want to sleep with him but are worried how it will go, hopefully you'll know him well enough to talk through your anxieties with him. Please don't let what other people think put you off - its only a few daft bigots who would mind what you do or what he is, and who cares what they think?

MajesticWhine Thu 10-Jan-13 20:44:24

I think I would be ok with it. I am quite flexible about who I am attracted to. But no one really knows how they would react unless they have been in that situation.

amillionyears Thu 10-Jan-13 20:46:38

Yes.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LessMissAbs Thu 10-Jan-13 20:56:55

No. I don't tend to fancy people who are enhanced by cosmetic adaptations (unless for medical necessity). I find it off-putting. I am attracted to natural, athletic men withink quite a small demographic profile. I'd find it off-putting.

That said, he might have an alluring, magnetic, mysterious air about him so I would never say never. But its extremely and highly unlikely.

But if it doesn't bother you then OP, then go for it!

susanalbumparty Thu 10-Jan-13 21:04:07

Purely by coincidence I know three trans people. One is a neighbour (male to female), one a former boss (male to female) and one who is the partner of a friend (female to male). My friend is a lesbian and until he transitioned her partner also identified as a lesbian. He is aiming for a penis construction so my lesbian friend would technically be in a heterosexual relationship. They have been together for 5 years and they plan to stay together, it's about the person not the genitals.

Knowing what I now know about gender dysphoria and seeing these friends getting on happily with their lives if I was in your position I would probably continue to explore my attraction to this guy.

If it were me, I'd probably be willing to give it a go and see what happened. I would be honest with him that I wasn't sure how I feel, and see if he wanted to continue with the proviso that I might decide it didn't work for me. But then, that's the case with any new relationship, surely.

I think I would be more worried about whether he was truly settled and happy in his new gender. Call me selfish, but I wouldn't take on a new relationship with anyone with angst or depression or other issues relating to the change. I'm not an empathetic person, and I wouldn't be able to provide support. So it would be horrible for both of us.

But I totally understand anyone who wouldn't want to date a transgender - you can't force yourself to find someone attractive if you just don't. There is a very large group of men I could never find attractive or date due to how I was subject to systematic brainwashing as a child. I recognise it for what it is, and realise my prejudice has no basis in logic. But that doesn't change the fact these men will never ever float my boat. Someone might not be attracted to short men, or skinny men, or men with moustaches (another group I could never date!!!). We like what we like.

GrendelsMum Thu 10-Jan-13 21:16:18

I would date him, given that he sounds like a nice bloke and there aren't that many nice single men out there! Why not just give it a whirl and see how it all works out?

I had a transgender colleague (male to female) who was definitely female, if you know what I mean. In fact, it seems very bizarre to think of her being a man in the past.

Boomerwang Thu 10-Jan-13 21:16:42

I couldn't do it. I'd have sex with a woman or a man, but I think I'd be confused with someone who had the outward appearance of a man yet had a vagina. For want of a better phrase, it would 'mess my head up' and I wouldn't know which role to take on, therefore I wouldn't be able to relax.

laughinglikeadrain Thu 10-Jan-13 21:21:06

I havent read the i whole thread, because some of those posts looked like they were going off track...

would i date a transgender person? I dont think so, but couldnt say yes or no for definate

would i like a transgenered person in my life... absolutely yes.

i hope that you work out what is best for you, in your circumstnaces

PretzelTime Thu 10-Jan-13 21:21:06

No, I'm attracted to males only.
But it's up to you OP who you want to date/are attracted too.

Brightonite Thu 10-Jan-13 21:29:12

I think i would carry on with the relationship as the spark is there and you were attracted to him as a person. Good luck to you both .

crazyhead Thu 10-Jan-13 21:37:30

Call me shallow, but at this stage i'd base it on whether i still fancied shagging this person given the info.
Go with your loins, don't overthink it.

Lueji Thu 10-Jan-13 21:51:59

Are his friends & family aware of his situation?

Sorry, but how can his family not be aware??? grin
And most friends, I guess.

It's one of those questions we can't really answer unless we are there.

I think I'd give it a go and then see how it felt.
I'm definitely with Gold. Much better than a twat.

I presume he will complete the transformation.
Transgender people are trapped in the wrong body type, basically. This man is a man, but until recently with a female body.

If you are attracted to him, then why not?

GrannyRatOnAScooter Thu 10-Jan-13 21:54:29

Personally, I don't think I'd be able to pursue the relationship. I am hetrosexual and would only want to be with a man. I think I'd really struggle with the fact that he'd allowed us to get close to the point of kissing without being honest about his transition.

I wish you both the best of luck, OP.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 10-Jan-13 22:19:52

If people don't like being called bigots, they should stop acting like bigots. Let's try one more time to make it clear: Some people would not date outside their own ethnic group. They do not find members of other ethnic groups sexually attractive. So far, so nobody else's business. However, people saying 'I wouldn't date a...' and then using an offensive, derogatory term for members of that ethnic group, or saying that members of the group are all thieves, or smell funny, or have specific hideous sexual practices would be bigoted. So, to recap, if you feel that you, yourself, would not be happy having a sexual relationship with a transperson (or you wet your bed at any implication that you could possibly be anything other than 100% heterosexual) then that's your business. But calling transpeople 'mutilated' or referring to them by the wrong gender just to emphasise that you don't consider them 'real' people is the bigotry that some of you are getting called on.

PretzelTime Thu 10-Jan-13 22:23:10

There is a difference between not being attracted to trans people and not consider them real people confused

deleted203 Thu 10-Jan-13 22:27:09

No, I couldn't. I like a man with a cock and this would feel a bit weird and freaky. Which wouldn't be a turn on.

Portofino Thu 10-Jan-13 22:29:18

I would not say I am a bigot at all, nor would I says that trans people are not real people. I would say that I am not strong enough as a person to deal with all of that, that my inherent belief is that is the construct of gender in society that is wrong. I would totally accept a transgendered person into my life. I am not at all sure that i would be prepared to enter into a sexual relationship. If that makes me a bigot, or a coward, or whatever....

<applauds SGB>

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 22:31:16

but there is only one post on this thread that qualifies as bigoted then confused

nobody else has said "mutilated" or "all transgendered people are <pejorative>"

so who are you calling a bigot exactly?

The way your posts read to me, you would actually really like to say that simply being heterosexual is bigoted, but you know that would make you look like a twat.

PretzelTime Thu 10-Jan-13 22:32:17

I get what you are saying btw Solid, derogatory terms are not okay.
However, there is a difference between someone who is a certain ethnicity and someone who has done surgery to their body and genitals in order to pass as the opposite sex. It's a sensitive issue esp when it comes to sexual relationships. Some see it as no prob and that's fine too. It's also fine to be het and gay, not everyone can be bi.

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood Thu 10-Jan-13 22:37:10

I feel that if I am honest with myself about it, I would happily be friends but it would put the kybosh on any sexual relationship.
I know of 4 transgendered people they are all so much happier and more confident in their own skin now they have made the change. (all male to female)

I share similar views to portofino. I hate that society puts so much emphasis on gender. I wish we could just be people without every little tiny fucking thing, right down to those stupid "women's pens" that Bic brought out recently, being assigned a label of being For Men/Boys or For Women/Girls. I wish people could be androgynous with no-one thinking anything of it, or men could wear dresses and heels as easily as women wear trousers. Perhaps then people with gender confusion could be happier as they are, without having to resort to very major and intrusive surgery.

BUT - I am not trans or gender-confused. So my opinion doesn't count for squat. And I am aware that a man in a dress is not remotely the same as transwoman.

But I see where Portofino is coming from.

wannaBe Thu 10-Jan-13 23:21:35

No I couldn't.

I am not a lesbian, and having sex with someone who is biologically still a woman equates to that. You can dress it up all you like, but fact is, emotionally he is a man, physically he is not.

I also agree that there is nothing honourable about the fact he has been up front about his situation before entering into a relationship, if you are expecting to enter into a relationship with someone then surely being up front about something that big in your life goes without saying really.

People should live the way they want and have the right to acceptance of their lifestyles/choices. However there is also a responsibility to be up front if who you are impacts on future relationships. I also think it was dishonest to have kissed the op before being up front about who he was.

expatinscotland Thu 10-Jan-13 23:23:53

It wouldn't be for me.

OneMoreGo Thu 10-Jan-13 23:34:21

<also applauds SGB.>

This thread is groaning with massive amounts of ignorance and venom which is quite depressing. And a good point about intersex individuals. I don't totally get why people get their knickers in a twist about this stuff, no pun intended. It's not my business what bits someone had when they were born or which way they identify subsequently.

But anyway, to respond to the OP, yes I would. I have dated a transwoman - a woman in the process of transitioning to female, and it was fine. It also got me thinking about my sexuality to the extent I have now come out as bisexual although I previously considered myself straight, and although the relationship with the transwoman didn't last, I am now dating a biological woman. Which is brilliant grin
I have a very good friend who is a trans man and I have often wondered 'would I...?' The answer is yes, I would in theory date a trans guy. Of course! It would depend on the person and what they were like, but if they were amazing, yeah I'd go for it. I would be apprehensive about some aspects, but I would go for it and see, because the possibility that it would be amazing is too irresistible to turn away from. I mean, you liked him until you found out, right? And you didn't immediately run screaming from the building. So give the bloke a chance and see what happens, if anything. You never know.

I think if I liked him, and felt a spark, and we got on well, then I would go with it and see how it panned out. Same as any relationship really.

It would not put me off, I don't think.

Gay40 Fri 11-Jan-13 00:00:22

SGB for Head of the World.

I'm a bang on dyke, but I wouldn't rule out dating a transman. I probably couldn't date a transwoman if I'm honest.
I decided years ago and still know that if DP transd to a man I would stay with was-her-now-him. Personality means more than physical attributes.

So, OP, I'd go out a few more times and see how it goes , but if it isn't for you, for whatever reason, that's OK and it's OK to say so as long as you are sensitively honest.

Gay40 Fri 11-Jan-13 00:02:03

I have noticed that transmen are generally the only men I find vaguely attractive.
< potters off to redefine her own sexual parameters >

carpetsw33per Fri 11-Jan-13 00:10:01

I meet a lot of transmen in my work and they all seem very attractive.

:-/

They are all charming and lovely, frankly. I would date one, yes.

I might miss the penetrative intercourse. But there are lots of ways to have sex and make love. You won't know until you try.

Good luck.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 00:17:32

Most trans people are not intersex/hermaphrodite though are they?

I wouldn't date a trans F-M person, it just wouldn't work for me.

chickensarmpit Fri 11-Jan-13 00:20:10

Nope i would not. I would be friends with him but i wouldn't ever sleep with him.
I don't understand why transgender folk can get new birth certificates either? Or that they don't legally have to say they were born another gender.

carpetsw33per Fri 11-Jan-13 00:21:38

I must say, having worked with lots of transsexuals, that transmen always 'pass'.

I suspect many of us know transmen and don't realise!

PretzelTime Fri 11-Jan-13 00:30:04

This thread is groaning with massive amounts of ignorance and venom which is quite depressing.

I don't see massive venom but I really don't like comments such as "a fucking bigoted, closed-minded, heteronormative mundane". That was uncalled for.

dontyouwantmebaby Fri 11-Jan-13 00:52:05

oh gosh OP have read most of the replies on your thread and find myself agreeing with sirboobalot and knicknack.

Please just see where this goes, if it was a heterosexual guy with a penis who couldn't get it up would he also be obliged to be honest on your first or second date? I dunno. Your bloke has been honest with you. It is quite a big deal to have to broach this early on but also necessary. I say go with the flow and see where it takes you both, you both sound lovely.

bestsonever Fri 11-Jan-13 00:57:18

I think how many and what kind of hurdles one is willing to get over within a relationship comes down to other qualities about the relationship. What the OP does will be a personal weigh up of how great they are together. If you could guarantee the same great other things in another genetic male then that would seem the better option, as having to sit and ponder and wonder and ask people's opinions would not be a factor so the relationship is already easier. Then again, challenges can bring rewards so it's a tough one. You could start out by taking things much slower within the relationship so that you get to know the big picture, warts an all and how good you could be as a couple so that you've got the best chance to work out if he could be the one for you. There are no guarantees that your other half won't be a shit whatever gender, but if he ends up an ex for other reasons, as many have found on MN. Whatever you decide, I hope it's the choice that proves to give you the happiest outcome.

bestsonever Fri 11-Jan-13 01:02:08

'but if he ends up an ex for other reasons' just scrub that bit, I was meant to so it doesn't make sense that bit.

BunFagFreddie Fri 11-Jan-13 01:27:29

If he was a nice person, I liked him, fancied him and we got on I would give it a go. I've never been in that situation though. Mind you, I like both sexes.

If he wanted to keep it secret, so would I, if he didn't I wouldn't.

BabiesOnSpikes Fri 11-Jan-13 01:45:51

NCed for this.

I started a thread a while back about my DH, who has never been certain of his sexuality/gender, and who was talking about cross-dressing, or possibly gender reassignment.

Before meeting him I'd have said yes to your OP, because I thought I was really open minded and all that. Now I've been faced with it possibly happening I have to say no.

No matter how much I love him I couldn't be his lover if he was trans.

I'd still love him, still want to spend time with him, but wouldn't be able to get into bed with him.

It's a hard situation, take it easy. Don't rush into anything unless you feel absolutely comfortable.

LadyKinbote Fri 11-Jan-13 02:57:57

For people who are confused about being given the bigoted label, you may not realise how hugely upsetting it can be to not allow someone who is transgender to define their own gender. I don't care about biology, if someone asks me to refer to them as a particular gender I'll respect that because it's unkind not to - it's not about accuracy. Obviously he isn't reading this, but it's one of the reasons that some of us are getting touchy.

OP - if you hadn't already guessed he used to be a woman I suspect he's pretty masculine! Don't get sucked into thinking of him as female and yourself as lesbian. I really don't think this is what it's about. And don't get too hung up on the sex thing, you never know what sex with a new partner will be like, and if he's masculine in demeanour I suspect he will be masculine in the bedroom. Yes it's not conventional but the same goes for lots of relationships.

ripsishere Fri 11-Jan-13 03:15:06

Yes, I probably could. IMO, it is personality, character and integrity that are important. Not what shape their genitals are.

StuntNun Fri 11-Jan-13 03:30:23

No, I'm married it would be wrong, but in principle yes. If you like him then date him. He has been open with you. If you're unsure then be equally open with him. Tell him you like him, you want to keep seeing him, you're unsure how to feel about dating a transsexual but you want to see how things go.

You will have to prepare yourself for busybodies and gossip which will probably be the most stressful part of your relationship. If you get as far as going to bed with him then you will have to be open minded (I assume you're straight) and inventive but it could be a lot of fun too.

My opinion? Life's too short, don't leave yourself wondering what you missed by not dating him. It may not work out for other reasons or he may end up being the love of your life.

Good luck to you.

StuntNun Fri 11-Jan-13 03:37:18

Oh and don't hang your hopes on him having constructive surgery, it's not an ideal situation either. It's a complicated series of operations and he may not want to go through all that. You may want to look into that procedure if you think it would become a possibility. You would have to ask him about it, it may be something he wouldn't consider or it may be the next step for him.

JoanByers Fri 11-Jan-13 03:47:10

I don't see why it needs to be big life-changing decision like buying a house, or getting sterilized, or something.

You are not going to magically transform into a lesbian by spending a night with this person. If you like it, continue, if you don't, don't, but it doesn't need to be agonized over really.

FellatioNels0n Fri 11-Jan-13 04:16:18

Haven't read the thread. I imagine it's interesting and probably a bit explosive.

No, I couldn't.

I don't think I have even the tiniest bit of lesbian or Bi in me, and I think you would need to in this scenario.

And if I did ever end up in a sexual relationship with a woman I think it would be a feminine woman. I find very butch women very unappealing in a physical/sexual attractiveness sense; there is something about it that unsettles me, and rightly or wrongly I don't think I could see this person as anything more than a very butch woman. Which would freak me out a bit, I'm afraid. I couldn't sleep with a very girlie man either, if that helps.

That is not to say I think they should be run out of town with pitchforks and burning torches - just that I would not/could not sleep with them. But fair play to anyone who could. Maybe we would all be much more fulfilled in our emotional relationships if we didn't have such a linear gender/sexual apartheid thing going on in our heads.

teedeeuk Fri 11-Jan-13 06:04:37

FellatioNels0n, not sure you've read the op. This isn't 'would you go out with a butch lesbian' or 'do you think you're a bit bi'..

Mimishimi Fri 11-Jan-13 06:13:32

No, I'd only be a friend.

HecatePropolos Fri 11-Jan-13 06:33:31

hmm I actually dreamed about this last night. What the hell was THAT about? grin

anyway. It turns out grin that for me, he'd need to have the surgery (you say at the moment he still has female genitals, right) if we were going to have sex, because I personally do not think that I could touch, kiss, lick, stroke or whatever - female genitals. It's just not for me.

If we weren't going to have sex much like my current marriage grin then it wouldn't matter what he was packing in his pants.

But either way. It was a hell of a night last night! shock

WeAreEternal Fri 11-Jan-13 07:13:52

I would, I really don't understand why anyone would have a serious problem with it.

I think sexuality is more fluid than a label.
But that is just my opinions. And is a whole other argument here, sexuality has nothing to do with this situation.

He is a man, he has always been a man, he will always be a man, unfortunately due to problems in utero he was born with the wrong sex organs.
It really has nothing to do with sexuality, and I really don't understand why people can't see that.

It is exactly the same as if he had been born with some other physical abnormality that needed extensive surgery to correct it.

Would you not date him if it was any other birth abnormality?

WWIW sex is way more than just PIV, in fact some of the most mind blowing sex I have had hasn't involved a PIV at all.

Morloth Fri 11-Jan-13 07:26:39

Hmmm I am not sure, but then I do feel some attraction towards women.

I do however quite enjoy PIV, so would be sad to give that up.

But then what if he had been born a man but didn't have a functioning penis?

Don't know.

Salbertina Fri 11-Jan-13 07:33:27

No

Boomerwang Fri 11-Jan-13 07:56:21

teedeeuk I think Fellatio is comparing a transman to a butch lesbian because both of them are masculine with female genitalia.

I wouldn't, because in this case a butch lesbian would have (unless taking medication) feminine features and breasts whereas a transman would be way more convincing as a male.

bumhead Fri 11-Jan-13 08:03:16

I have to say that whether your pursue a relationship with this man or not Op, the fact that he was so honest and upfront with you says an awful lot about this guy.
If you decide not to date him again please be gentle with him. It must take a lot of guts to be so open on a first date. He sounds like a lovely person.
I think if it was me I would see how it goes just like with any other guy.
But I'm not you and only you can decide what you feel like doing.

TobyLerone Fri 11-Jan-13 08:03:52

I can't imagine any reason that I wouldn't. The question, IMO, is ridiculous.

"Would you date someone who seemed nice, who you fancied and with whom you enjoyed spending time?"

Surely "yes" would be the only answer confused

MrsBucketxx Fri 11-Jan-13 08:05:42

No not cause I woukd have an issue with it rather everyone else would, to much emotional stress on dc friends family.

I have been with women before and its just as satisfying, different but still good.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 11-Jan-13 08:13:47

No I wouldn't date a transgendered individual. Fine as a friend... not as a lover.

Midwife99 Fri 11-Jan-13 08:14:47

I have never thought about this before but with 3 naturally male husbands under my belt I'd be much more open to it! It really wouldn't bother me although I'd miss PIV sex.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 08:32:40

^He is a man, he has always been a man, he will always be a man, unfortunately due to problems in utero he was born with the wrong sex organs.
It really has nothing to do with sexuality, and I really don't understand why people can't see that^

What problems in utero? if you can, please explain them to me. I don't want to be a bigot, but unless someone is a hermaphrodite or intersex they just are either male/female. that is organic isn't it?

It is exactly the same as if he had been born with some other physical abnormality that needed extensive surgery to correct it

I don't think thats true really, again not in the case of intersex, but having a normally functioning penis/vagina is a physical abnormality.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 08:34:09

*is NOT a physical abnormality

teedeeuk Fri 11-Jan-13 08:48:57

Amberleaf - it can be if you're Trans!

PeoniesPlease Fri 11-Jan-13 09:04:02

I've been thinking about this and I would just see how it goes. If he is a nice guy and you both get on well then just enjoy it.

As for the sex thing, well, different partners are different anyway aren't they? And you don't know what it will be like unless you try it - if you don't enjoy yourself, you don't have to do it again!

I also don't think you would need to tell your dds. Most people don't discuss their partner's genitals in detail with others, especially their children!

LadyKinbote Fri 11-Jan-13 09:14:40

Just found a lovely quote from Graham Norton in David Walliams' autobiography which I think applies in your situation: "I could enjoy sex with a man or woman - it's all the same really. Sexuality is more about the emotional rather than the physical side of things. What really matters is whose arms you want around you."

HecatePropolos Fri 11-Jan-13 09:19:57

I am uncomfortable with the idea that if this isn't something you would want, you are somehow in the wrong, bigoted or narrow minded. I think that for a lot of people dating = sex, at some point, eventually, after a few dates people normally begin to get intimate - don't they? You don't date someone and not end up kissing them, and then end up, eventually, if you like each other, in bed with them. And THAT'S where it changes. This is a person who, at the moment, has female genitals. If you are not a person who is sexually excited by female genitals - this is going to be a problem for you at that point! Surely? That doesn't in itself make you any sort of bigot!

If there's not going to be sex, and it's just going to the cinema, going for a meal, watching tv together etc etc then it's just a person who looks, sounds, acts, feels - male and if that's what you like then you're going to be fine aren't you? and it wouldn't be an issue but I don't think that it's unreasonable of someone to say that they really don't want to get into bed with someone who has a vagina and clitoris and dive in face first if that's not their sexual preference!

That isn't in itself bigoted. It is about sexual organs and which set does it for you! If that isn't accepted as reasonable, and is considered bigoted then by extension everyone who is heterosexual would be a bigot for not having sex with a person of the same gender and everyone who is homosexual would be a bigot for not having sex with a person of the opposite gender! You have to accept and respect sexuality in all its forms and that includes the right to not want to engage in sexual behaviour with someone who is in possession of a set that is not sexually attractive to you!

I think it is unfair to say that this is a person who considers themselves male, has had some surgery, but has not had genital surgery and therefore still has female genitalia but you must disregard this and be sexually attracted/active with them or you're a bigot.

I think it would have been better to split the question into two.

1 would you go on a date with a transgendered man who had not had the genital surgery and therefore still had female genitals

2 would you have sex with a transgendered man who had not had the genital surgery and therefore still had female genitals

WeAreEternal Fri 11-Jan-13 09:36:57

AmberLeaf - What problems in utero? if you can, please explain them to me. I don't want to be a bigot, but unless someone is a hermaphrodite or intersex they just are either male/female. that is organic isn't it?

Transgender is when a person is born with the wrong reproductive organs.
Gender is entirely reliant on which organs you have as they produce hormones that change the physical form into the gender that you are.
So if problems occur in utero that mean you develop the wrong reproductive organs you will basically be a person trapped in the wrong body. I think it is quite possibly the worst birth defect imaginable.

AmberLeaf - I don't think thats true really, again not in the case of intersex, but having a normally functioning penis/vagina is a physical abnormality.

I have a friend that is transgender that would whole hartedly disagree with you. If anything being trans is worse because at least with an obvious 'simple' birth defect it is easy to explain and people understand, with trans most people find it difficult to understand and just assume you are gay and/or a freak.

Astley Fri 11-Jan-13 09:40:52

I totally agree Hec. We seemed to have reached the point in PC land where we have to say we would sleep with a woman who has had her breasts removed or we are automatically a bigot.

People are attracted to all sorts of different people, attraction is not right or wrong, it's attraction! I personally like men with the body shape of James Corden, most of my friends find this crazy and say they could never fancy a man wholooks like that. My SIL who is mixed race like DH says she only finds dark haired, olive skinned, men attractive... Does that make her a bigot? She has a type, I have a type. Do we have to now pretend that actually we don't and would sleep with anyone? Is that now the 'right' thing to say?

LaCiccolina Fri 11-Jan-13 09:46:44

Tb truly honest I have no idea. I've never dated a woman either. However I do feel that the person is the most important part. Iykwim. I think the person could mean u want/desire things u ordinarily thought u might not. So ultimately, possibly. Possibly I could. I'd still worry about all sorts of things but I think possibly sums it up the most positively I could answer u.

Hope it helps.

strumpetpumpkin Fri 11-Jan-13 09:50:55

i dont think its worng to not want to have sex with a transexual person. Its ok to not want to have sex with anyone. Its not nice to start making shitty remarks and deliberatly offensive statements about trans people.

I like sex with women nearly as much as sex with men, although have never had sex with a trans person, If there was attraction and connection there, I dont see why it wouldnt be great.

lynniep Fri 11-Jan-13 09:56:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WeAreEternal Fri 11-Jan-13 09:56:40

I think that Eco's question is specifically difficult to answer because she hasnt said what type of trans the man is.

There are many different stages of transgender that people want and are aspiring to.

If we are talking about a pre surgery trans then the argument is pretty different to if the man is a stage three trans (basically, breasts removed, on testosterone, living as a man, but with no plans to have the full VtoP surgery)

If we are talking about a level 3 trans than I think Hecate makes a brilliant point and I completely agree in everything she says.

However, level 3 trans is rare, virtually everyone that begins surgical reassignment has the complete and full surgeries.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 11-Jan-13 10:03:00

"But I'm a bit freaked out."

That's why you should probably not date this man further OP. If you carry on dating thinking you're going to get over this initial reaction - or thinking that you should get over it - you are probably not being honest with yourself. Yes he's been very brave to come clean early on but you're really under no obligation to continue just because he's done that.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 10:03:07

WeAreEternal

Thank you.

Can I just say Im not quibbling over whether a transgender person is or isn't, Im just trying to understand it! smile

If they are born with the wrong body parts, does that mean they have the opposite brain? are there male and female brains?

I know that hormomes affect body growth etc, but I think that gender expectations are also social/cultural?

It is really hard to understand how it must feel, but Id like to.

Teedeeuk, yes I get your point!

Snazzynewyear Fri 11-Jan-13 10:03:57

I really think it would totally depend on the person. And there's no harm in taking this slowly and working out your feelings, same as you would with any prospective boyfriend. I wouldn't rule anything out specifically because of this. It's not like you have to sign a contract to stay with him forever - see if it works out on the basis of who he is as a whole person. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But if you like him it would be a shame not to try.

On the telling people front, I don't see why you have to. For anyone who's not sleeping with him or having a romantic relationship with him it's irrelevant, because they just deal with him socially and socially he is a woman and lives as a woman.

fluffyraggies Fri 11-Jan-13 10:18:33

Have read whole thread. Hecate sums it up for me:

I personally do not think that I could touch, kiss, lick, stroke or whatever - female genitals. It's just not for me.

I would add - what i know used to be female genitals too. I wouldn't be able to mentally get past it.

No problem with friendship with and total social acceptance of transpeople, gay, lesbian, asexual, bi or whoever. Live and let live.

Onezerozero Fri 11-Jan-13 10:20:29

I had a friend at school who 'had a sex change' maybe twenty years ago now, this was after living as a man for some years too. I would hope that anyone dating him wouldn't find his past a barrier.

I wouldn't date someone however who was still working through these issues and deciding whether to do it or not, I don't think. I would expect them to have too much to think about. Perhaps that is terrible of me.

fluffyraggies Fri 11-Jan-13 10:22:43

Just to add i too would be a bit hmm about not being told till after the snog, tbh.

Not sure about the posts about what an amazing wonderful attractive person he must be, from those other than the OP.

Tingalingle Fri 11-Jan-13 10:28:14

I have a lot of sympathy for those wrestling with this for the first time.

Like someone up thread, we now have three family friends or colleagues who are trans-gender (at various stages).

It meant that when I mentioned that a friend's child (at 19) was transgender and would be known by a different name now, my own kids just said, 'Oh. Like Nikki?' [not her real name] and clearly think it's just something some adults do, rather than being puzzled by the whole thing.

I still struggle, though, to see just how someone can be so desperate to live 'as a woman' or 'as a man', because I'm not sure what I do that counts as 'living as a woman' myself. Nikki is certainly very traditionally 'feminine', far more addicted to skirts and accessories than most of my jeans and sweatshirts-wearing friends, but it's clearly a much deeper need to change the whole body. And it's a need that starts early: friend's child has know for many years that he needed to change.

I suspect I can't understand it because I'm not, myself, transgender. That's about it, really.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 10:38:28

I still struggle, though, to see just how someone can be so desperate to live 'as a woman' or 'as a man', because I'm not sure what I do that counts as 'living as a woman' myself. Nikki is certainly very traditionally 'feminine', far more addicted to skirts and accessories than most of my jeans and sweatshirts-wearing friends, but it's clearly a much deeper need to change the whole body. And it's a need that starts early: friend's child has know for many years that he needed to change

I suspect I can't understand it because I'm not, myself, transgender. That's about it, really

I can totally relate to that.

HeyHoHereWeGo Fri 11-Jan-13 10:43:56

Knitknack says:

"My gosh the ignorance displayed on this thread is SHOCKING! This isn't 'not hetero', this isn't 'a woman', this is a (by the sounds of it gorgeous!) man who happens to not have a penis"

Knitknack I have children of both sexes

I have boys

I have one of those ones who happens not to have a penis

I call the boys genitals "Penis"
I call the girls genitals "Not a penis"

Really?????????
Vulva not a vulva?
Woman has wished it into the simple absence of a penis.
Emperors clothes declared most beautiful ever seen.

Assuming I was single I can honestly say I don't know. It would depend on the person. If I really liked them I'd be prepared to see if we could make sex work. The only problem would be if I wanted children.

madonnawhore Fri 11-Jan-13 10:48:22

Hecate's post says it best I think.

I'm very heterosexual and would need a big penis for me to really enjoy sex.

If that penis was attached to a transgendered man who used to be a woman, that might be okay, as long as I had sufficient chemistry with that person.

But no, I wouldn't want to have sex with a man who has a vagina.

I posted a thread about transgender issues in children a few years ago, and just thought I should refer to it here, as I think it gives some interesting viewpoints into transgender issues.

If you do an advanced search for Transgender Child here, you will actually find many threads on the topic, so it cant be as uncommon as we think.

I do however feel that it is important to recognize that whilst it is possible to have nothing but respect, love and admiration for a transgender person, when it comes to relationships and sexuality, you have to make a decision like you do with all relationships and sexual encounters. You usually dont embark on a sexual relationship unless you are attracted to or turned on by that person, and if you are, then that is all you need to know. Gender and genitals become secondary. And if it doesnt for you, then there you have your answer.

chickensarmpit Fri 11-Jan-13 11:31:04

Man with a vagina? I'm getting confused. I have lived a very sheltered life.

WeAreEternal Fri 11-Jan-13 11:42:19

I absoloutly wasn't trying to start an argument with you AmberLeaf I was just answering your comments. Sorry if it sounded like I was, I guess some of the negative comments put me on the defensive.

My trans friend is one of my oldest friends, our parents are friends and I have know him virtually my whole life and we have always been close.
I have been witness to every part of his journey to become on the outside who he is on the inside. I shared his pain and cried for him many times so this is a subject that I take quite personally.

I don't know if there is physiologically a difference between male and female brains, but I believe there is a difference.

I think one of the main misconceptions is that being trans is the same as being gay, except that you are such a camp homosexual that you want to be a girl, or such a masculine lesbian that you want to be a man.

It is not that way at all, infant I have met gay transgender people.

Being trans has nothing to do with sexuality, it is about making you into the person you are supposed to be.

HeyHo you sound like an amazing woman, I wish my friends parents had accepted him as well as you have of your son, one of his biggest battles was accepting that his parents were never going to accept him as their son, and it still breaks his heart.

sassyandsixty Fri 11-Jan-13 11:52:38

Go along with it and see how things go. My dd is trans and I hope she will one day be able to have a relationship with a man who can love her for who she is - however I think it may be easier for a boy-to-girl trans than the other way around.

Rosa Fri 11-Jan-13 11:54:24

No not for me ...ok as a friend but nothing else.

noddyholder Fri 11-Jan-13 12:15:04

I admire him for telling you it must have been hard. I think I would continue the relationship but tbh would hope for reconstructive surgery for him so that I would feel fulfilled as I would 'expect' from a male partner. The fact that he was once she doesn't bother me at all but I would want a sexual relationship and that would probably influence the outcome. All the talk of deformity and mutilation is just horrible and backward.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 12:21:28

WeAreEternal No no, I absolutely didn't think you were trying to argue! I just didn't want you to think I was!

Thank you for your insights.

Loquace Fri 11-Jan-13 12:40:20

I would, I really don't understand why anyone would have a serious problem with it.

I think it is the same thing as a couple of male freinds of ours who would ONLY consider a sexual relationship with a transgendered woman. They are simply not attracted to cis-females. Do you not understand that either ?

I think sexuality is more fluid than a label

It can be, but it is not obligatory. I personal have a really small range of people I am sexually attracted to. It starts with cis-male and then shrinks far , fa smaller according to the series of attributes (physical and characterwise) that I need to be present in order to get "that tingly feeling". I feel I need to apologise for my narrow range as much as anybody needs to apologise for their" obtuse angle" range of sexual attraction.

"sexuality has nothing to do with this situation"

Sexuality has bugger all to do with the moving towards an acceptace of the transgendered as fully paid up human beings, free of prejudice aimed at them and offered the same opportunities within communities and society as anybody else.

However when it comes to embarking on a sexual/romantic realtionship with a transgendered person sexuality pretty much lies at the heart of the matter. Unless you are a person who chooses a sexual partner for political reasons as opposed to "gagging for you" reasons. Which is fair play if that is what floats your boat in the bedroom.

dequoisagitil Fri 11-Jan-13 12:44:58

I would possibly date someone who was trans.

I think if you like him, OP, then see where it goes, but be gentle & honest about any worries you have.

knitknack Fri 11-Jan-13 13:26:35

HeyHoHereWeGo

You have completely missed the point of my post. Which was IF a trans person identifies as a man then they are a MAN they are NOT a 'woman'... they just are, and to claim anything else shows such stunning insensitivity that it's just ridiculous.

I cannot believe that you really misinterpreted what I was saying in such a silly way so I can only assume you were trying to make a point.

MooncupGoddess Fri 11-Jan-13 13:50:25

"Which was IF a trans person identifies as a man then they are a MAN they are NOT a 'woman'... they just are"

I find this an odd thing to say. Transsexual people have a discrepancy between their biological markers of sex - chromosomes/hormones/genitals - and what they feel like inside. So, as it is very hard to change how one feels inside, they change their hormones and genitals. (Of course, one can never change one's chromosomes.)

I have no problem with that and no problem with them subsequently identifying as their chosen sex but the simple fact remains that a trans man is not 100% biologically male in the way someone who was born male and remains happy to be male is.

HeyHoHereWeGo Fri 11-Jan-13 13:57:58

Knitknack I did NOT miss your point.
I was challenging it.

My gosh the ignorance displayed on this thread is SHOCKING! This isn't 'not hetero', this isn't 'a woman', this is a (by the sounds of it gorgeous!) man who happens to not have a penis"

Your quote is frankly ridiculous.

Lets say our OP here goes to bed with this man and looks at his unclothed genitals

Does she see "NOT A PENIS"?
Does she see some fluffy pixelated version of male genitalia?
Does she see a sign saying "to be continued..."?
Does she see something that clearly is not a woman as you say?

She would see a VULVA
The VULVA is an actual reality
It is not some pale half hearted version of a penis
It is not genitals minus a penis
It is not some harmless thing

It is an actual vulva

You know like half the world has.

To deny it is, to use your own words, shockingly ignorant.

(sorry to the poster who didn't catch my sarcasm. I am making the point that women are not defined as "men without penises")

OneMoreGo Fri 11-Jan-13 14:07:14

Actually, if he has been taking testosterone for a while, this man's genitals will NOT necessarily look like your standard vulva at all.

Astley Fri 11-Jan-13 14:11:18

I also agree with Fluffyraggies about being told after the snog. I wouldn't be happy about that.

Arthurfowlersallotment Fri 11-Jan-13 14:13:37

I agree that he should have told you earlier.

I couldn't do it.

He should have told you before the snog, I agree. And before the second dinner date.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Fri 11-Jan-13 15:49:36

Maybe he didn't tell the OP until the second date because he wasn't sure that he wanted to continue with the relationship, or that she was trustworthy enough for him to tell her. Given the number of people who are transphobic, rude and ignorant, it's quite a big risk for a transperson to come out to a comparative stranger - he would have had to feel sure that the OP wouldn't flee the restaurant and get straight on FB going 'OMG [date] is not really a man!' for example and don't forget, there have been loads of cases of transpeople telling a sexual/romantic partner that they are trans, only to be violently attacked, even murdered by the partner.

So if the man had decided, after a couple of dates, that he didn't want to pursue the relationship (for any reason, not making any negative assumptions about the OP - people sometimes decide, after a few dates, that they simply don't want to take it any further) then he would probably have said nothing, because, as the relationship wasn't going to progress to sex, there would have been no need for the OP to know.

Is it appropriate that on this thread I read the name PeoniesPlease as PenisPlease blush

DoctorAnge Fri 11-Jan-13 16:43:30

No I just could never do it. Sorry but it's not really like being with a man
Is it?

Good point SGB, and fair enough.

ecofreeek Fri 11-Jan-13 18:12:10

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice.

I have agonised about this, and in the end I think thats the problem. Its become a 'huge' thing for me already . I can't just 'let go' amd see where it takes me, I just don't want to sleep with person with a vulva and that he has a vulva has spoilt the buzz for me.

I feel guilty and sad. and in some ways a bit shallow and silly. but as so many have said everyone has a type and Im afraid for me, I need male genitals to be sexually turned on. So friend yes, partner sadly not for me.

I need to find a kind and sensitive way of saying this - although I'm guessing this will not be the first time a woman has turned him down over this.

Astley Fri 11-Jan-13 18:29:13

I don't think you should feel bad. I don't see that it is really that different from going on a date with someone and realising you don't really fancy them. It's just one of those things.

You're not saying you think he's a bad person or that you don't like his personality. You just don't fancy him.

How do you feel about him not telling you before he kissed you? I personally would have hoped he would have got to know you well enough to tell you before anything happened between you.

knitknack Fri 11-Jan-13 18:30:23

Heyhoherewego - as onemorego has pointed out, that's probably NOT what she'd see - I was assuming a level of understanding about transgender and the process which is clearly not there.

LadyKinbote Fri 11-Jan-13 18:54:51

All you can do is be honest - tell him you agonised over it but have decided you don't want the relationship to go any further. Don't feel guilty, if he's not the right man for you, that's fine.

loopylou6 Fri 11-Jan-13 19:07:24

No I couldn't, I'm straight so I couldn't get aroused by a vagina.

I don't mean to come across rude saying that, I have no problem what so ever with transgendered people, I have no problem with gay/lesbian people, Infact my best friend is a lesbian, it's a non issue to me, but as I said, I like Dick grin

No. I couldn't. Sex with no cock is not sex for me! Is that sad?

But then I am a lapsed catholic and even typing the word cock puts me in a quandary so having sex with someone who once was a different sexist wouldn't roll with me.

But I have nothing against people who want to change their sex, good health to them and glad there are what I would called broad minded people about who are happy to enter into relationships with them.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Fri 11-Jan-13 20:21:23

I think it might actually be kinder not to spell out that you are dumping him because he's transgender. Of course it's OK to end the relationship - everyone is entitled to decide not to progress a relationship, but it's more polite to be firm, kind, but non-specific (unless you are dumping someone for a major character fault like violence, racism or having a dozen DC by different women that they refuse to pay for...)

iwantanafternoonnap Fri 11-Jan-13 20:50:32

No this wouldn't bother me. How often do you want to give a blow job or give someone a wank?? I ask because that is the only time you would really really notice. You can use strap ons in a wide range of sizes.

He is a man minus a bit that can easily be strapped on. I always view people as the gender they believe themselves to be and not what nature chucked in. I think it is quite sad you base your relationships around a penis.

Gay40 Fri 11-Jan-13 20:52:45

Quite a lot of people marry dicks, though.

Yes I would, but I can understand why someone else might have reservations.

I think if you find him attractive enough and like him as a person then it wouldn't matter.

I don't think that it would bother me personally. (My parents are a whole other ball game..... but hey!)

Go with what you feel.

Loquace Fri 11-Jan-13 20:57:35

I think it is quite sad you base your relationships around a penis.

Do gay men get this chucked at them too, or is it reserved for hetrosexual women only ?

BelaLugosisShed Fri 11-Jan-13 21:02:51

iwant - I love giving my DH oral sex and touching his penis, it's an integral part of foreplay, so to say you would hardly notice that a person who, to all intents and purposes is male, has actually got a vagina is ridiculous.

I can't imagine someone who is biologically female would smell like a man either, the male scent is imperitive to a totally heterosexual women surely? His genitals in particular would smell female , wouldn't they?

Loquace Fri 11-Jan-13 21:09:46

Yes but Bela we are just women, so god forbid we might prioritise what we want out of a sexual encounter/romantic liason/relationship.

Our needs and desires are not particulary important compared to the needs and desires of a person who might want to bed/love us.

Nothing every really changes, does it.

BelaLugosisShed Fri 11-Jan-13 21:17:15

How true.

Surely he should be looking for a bisexual woman to partner up with and there must be dating sites for transgendered people, he must realise that most straight women could not have sex with someone who had a vagina?
I wonder if he would "fancy" a woman that he knows was actually born male and who still had a penis and scrotum?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Fri 11-Jan-13 21:32:24

Bela: So transpeople should only date via 'special' dating sites, eh? Do you think they should have to wear a sticker on their foreheads as well so that straight people can avoid them?

I wonder how many of you find yourselves whining that you don't care what gay people do in bed as long as they don't 'flaunt it' ie expect to have the same human rights as heterosexuals...

xkittyx Fri 11-Jan-13 21:40:34

I've not sniffed any transgender people's crotches, but I don't see why a trans man would smell female generally (not just talking about their bits). If their ovaries are removed, they won't be getting female hormones. Instead they will be taking male hormones so I'd imagine that sweat, armpits etc would smell male.
Also female genitalia really change when taking male hormones. The clitoris can grow big enough to make penetratrive sex possible in some cases.
Bela, quite a number of women on this thread have said it wouldn't bother them so clearly "special dating sites" might not quite be necessary.

xkittyx Fri 11-Jan-13 21:42:54

Oh and I'm in no way, shape or form saying it doesn't matter about our needs as woman, ffs I'm a feminist I'd never suggest that.
There just appear to be an awful lot of misconceptions and a nasty whiff of prejudice around the issue of trans people.

tittytittyhanghang Fri 11-Jan-13 21:47:31

I dont know, I really dont. I think the non penis issue would be a bridge too much for me. In theory if dp turned around and told me he used to be a woman then i really hope that I would love him enough for it not to be an issue. But I think I would find knowing the fact that he used to be a woman would sexually be too offputting for me.

I don't honestly know. I am bisexual so it's not that. And I can see reasons why someone might have surgery, and that is their choice. But I suspect I would find it very difficult to reconcile what I believe and what they believed.

I think it's important that there's a difference between biological sex and socially-constructed gender, and that's one of the things I wouldn't want to disagree over with someone I was sleeping with.

bumbez Fri 11-Jan-13 21:52:30

I haven't read all the replies but as you seem to really like him I would go with the flow and see where it takes you. smile

ecofreeek Fri 11-Jan-13 21:54:07

Just to answer those who asked me if I thought he should have told me before we had a snog...

this is a non issue to me. To me he is a HE. he looks male, acts male, smells male, IS male.. a kiss is a kiss. but as I have said I am not comfortable with more

I am quite flattered, as SGB said that he felt comfortable and confident enough to think I was 'worth' the truth... maybe that's wrong but its how I feel. I will totally respect his privacy

I think I will just say that right now the commitment of a relationship isn't for me- I have two young DD's, a demanding job, elderly parents and a lot of financial problems. I'm not exactly catch of the century....

RabidCarrot Fri 11-Jan-13 22:00:46

No I would not, and it does not make you a bad person because this is something you can not deal with.
I hope you can stay friends as you both sound nice

AnyFucker Fri 11-Jan-13 23:21:20

Eco, you do sound nice

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Fri 11-Jan-13 23:27:34

Eco, you sound lovely. It's fine not to want to pursue a relationship with someone for any reason, and you sound very much like the sort of person who can dump someone without crushing the person's self-esteem.

Greensleeves Fri 11-Jan-13 23:28:21

I don't think he should have had to tell you before the first snog either. He has the right to his privacy just like everyone else. I don't demand to see someone's passport and birth certificate before I interact with them.

Can I ask a question on behalf of dh (we are sitting discussing this thread because it's fascinating and neither of us is really satisfied with our own feelings about it)

If someone is born with XX chromosomes and knows from a very early age that they are male, and goes on to have full gender reassignment and live life as a man, would they be allowed to enter the Olympics as a male competitor? And should they be? (I think they should, dh doesn't think it would be allowed)

TobyLerone Fri 11-Jan-13 23:32:09

I agree that you sound nice. However, I'd be wary of not telling the truth. I've had that exact excuse backfire on me before. I think that perhaps he deserves the truth, and you seem like you could give it very kindly.

edam Fri 11-Jan-13 23:43:35

No, I couldn't have sex with someone who had female genitalia.

You sound like a kind person who will manage to tell him gently.

Delayingtactic Fri 11-Jan-13 23:50:23

Hmm. I don't know. If I fancied him then well why not? I'd certainly be tempted to at least get to the sex stage. But I do like cock. I'd want to know that a strap on would do it for me.

But then is it ok to him to let it get to the stage of sex just to see?

Thingiebob Fri 11-Jan-13 23:57:09

You could give it a go. You might fall in love with him. At that point, you would find his genitals a non issue, as you said above there are always dildos.

CelineMcBean Sat 12-Jan-13 00:02:58

I can understand why you have chosen not to carry on but having fallen in love with someone I felt no initial attraction to at all I would say that in my case transgender would not be a reason not to end a relationship.

wiltingfast Sat 12-Jan-13 00:05:23

No

But I really really really like real penises (sp?!)

That's not nb to everyone though. People's sexual needs can be v different. I just know sexually it would not work for me.

Must be head wrecking though. Not every day you meet someone you like kissing...

Thingiebob Sat 12-Jan-13 00:40:51

I don't think you are being shallow or silly. If vulvas don't do it for you, then you need to make it clear.

It's not shallow at all to prefer one set of genitals over another.

Wabbally Sat 12-Jan-13 00:44:47

Absolutely, I would.

I am married (and attracted to) a person, not a penis, or even a male. A person.

PiccadillyCervix Sat 12-Jan-13 00:56:55

you have to be comfortable op,I don't think of myself as bisexual as such but have thought before about being with a woman. so I like men but also in theory find then idea of a woman exciting but being honest I can't see myself with a man with vagina don't think that makes me a bigot, I'm just not sexually interested and I wouldn't fuck someone I didn't want to to prove a point.

Thingiebob Sat 12-Jan-13 01:34:35

I'm sure people wouldn't see the OP as a bigot because she doesn't find him sexually attractive.

PiccadillyCervix Sat 12-Jan-13 02:25:14

have you read the thread

chipmonkey Sat 12-Jan-13 02:54:27

LadyKinbote you said "Just found a lovely quote from Graham Norton in David Walliams' autobiography which I think applies in your situation: "I could enjoy sex with a man or woman - it's all the same really. Sexuality is more about the emotional rather than the physical side of things. What really matters is whose arms you want around you." "
which is all very well but then, when did Graham Norton last sleep with a woman?

And someone else thought it was a bit sad that someone would base their relationship around a penis.
But we all base our relationships around something, don't we? And to start with, those things will probably seem shallow but they're the things that ignite the spark.
I agree that someone should be identified as the gender that they want but if doesn't follow that a potential lover should have to sweep their own preferences aside in order to facilitate this.
I probably would not find a man with freckles and red hair attractive. And I shouldn't have to sleep with him in order that he can feel attractive. Same with a man without a penis. I would miss penetrative sex and would not like to have to do without it and I don't think any kind of strap-on would convince me. It doesn't make me bigoted or close-minded, just because I know what I like.

LadyKinbote Sat 12-Jan-13 03:04:03

I assumed from the quote that he did sleep with women but then of course neither of us know! I take the quote to mean that the mechanics of sex isn't the most important thing but that love and affection is. I do genuinely think that if I really loved someone I could get used to an unconventional sex life. Doesn't matter in the OP's case as it sounds like he's not for her after all which is fair enough.

chipmonkey Sat 12-Jan-13 03:14:12

I think I also saw an interview with Graham Norton where he said that he had only had a relationship with one woman when he was in his early twenties, that he had had this stupid notion that you could love a person rather than a gender but then realised he wasn't being true to himself and has only slept with men since.
And I think, yes, it would be nice to think that gender didn't really matter to anyone but sex is a big part of most relationships and if either person doesn't find it satisfying, then it will probably cause more trouble further down the line and possibly a more heartbreaking break-up than breaking up in the early stages would do.

FellatioNels0n Sat 12-Jan-13 05:09:44

All these people saying that it's silly/shallow to place so much importance on the genitalia/gender of the trans man in question, and to not be able to see past it to the person and to give the sex a try because it might be great - isn't that the same argument that has been used to dissuade gay men and lesbians from their preferences since forever? Would it be ok to do a reverse AIBU from the perspective of telling a lesbian that she really is being very shortsighted to dismiss penises with nice human beings attached to them from her repertoire, because she might actually, you know, really like it if she tried? Of course not. All hell would break loose.

AmIOverReacting Sat 12-Jan-13 05:41:58

I don't think I could, I'd be to freaked out

LadyKinbote Sat 12-Jan-13 07:24:20

Fellatio (didn't expect to be writing that!) - that's a really good point. Tbh it's impossible to guess how I'd react in the OP's position.

CabbageLeaves Sat 12-Jan-13 07:52:58

Good point Fellatio

Graham norton could have sex with a man or woman. He has a penis and they both have orifices. If the orifice didn't exist he would then use a fake plastic orifice (you can buy them apparently) and still say the same? Don't think so.

HecatePropolos Sat 12-Jan-13 10:15:21

I agree, FN. I seriously doubt that many people are able to have sex with someone who is not of the gender that is their preference.

I have heard views from men who are gay where they describe how revolting they find female genitals. I mean actually yukky shudder ew! grin Are they bigoted? I agree with you that telling a lesbian (for example) that she's wrong to not have a sexual relationship with a man because she's wrong to care about gender and it's only a penis and all that would get you hung, drawn and quartered! and rightly so!

I find female gentials sexually offputting. A strap on might work for me and I would be fine with them touching me - but I'd never be able to sexually satisfy my partner if they had female genitals! Because I would not be able to touch them in a sexually stimulating way.

How fair is THAT? Ok, we'll find a way for you to satisfy me. Touch me, strap this on. But do me a favour and take care of yourself, would you?

That's really selfish and unfair to them. It isn't thinking about their needs at all. You don't do that to someone in a relationship.

FellatioNels0n Sat 12-Jan-13 11:19:15

Without wishing to sound patronising I do feel incredibly sorry for trans people and all people who are confused or unhappy about their gender and/or their sexuality, especially 'pre-op' where they are always forced to have this conversation every time they embark on a new relationship, and risking rejection at every turn.

Looking completely like a woman, but acting like a man and wishing you were a man, people can accept, even if they don't fully undersand it.

Looking like a woman whilst acting/dressing/displaying the body language of a man (to my eyes at least, but I realise that is a contentious view among lesbians) but still being identifying very strongly as a woman (as in a gay, butch woman) on the whole, people can understand, even if it alienates them and bewilders them.

Looking completely like a man, living as a man, sounding completely like a man but with a surprise vagina is much, much more of a head fuck.

Although I haven't seen a post-op 'created' penis or vagina but I'm going to hazard a guess that a conversation still needs to be had there too. I doubt they are so good that you could get away without telling a partner. And if the relationship gets serious then you would be basically living a massive lie to not mention the first 30 odd years or whatever of your life, so even then you are taking a huge risk that when you tell someone you love, they might freak out and ditch you anyway.

Getting your gender 'changed' solves one problem but must create a whole host of others, especially given that a trans person's sexuality is not always straightforward either. For example they may wish to become a woman, but not wish to sleep with men, or vice versa. I imagine it's extremely difficult to know how/where to start in forming 'normal' relationships but to be honest I imagine it's safest to just stick to bisexual people as they are going to be more open minded and less freaked out generally. It's a lot to ask a truly hetero or truly gay person to deal with.

I hope there is a dating agency somewhere that caters for these people and matches them up with people who don't give a toss - because life must be very hard otherwise.

Iamsparklyknickers Sat 12-Jan-13 11:19:46

Just read through the thread and feel the same as hecate, I could probably cope with other means to satisfy myself, but really wouldn't feel comfortable with pleasing someone else's vagina, and to me that's a big part of sex. I want to enjoy giving my partner pleasure. If the buck stops with my enjoyment I would never relax or get over the feelings of selfishness.

I also wonder whether it's particularly fair not to be honest with him about why you don't want the relationship to go further. He doesn't sound stupid and will know so soon after telling you that it's the reason you don't want to go further. I think I'd have to risk offending him and try as be as sensitively honest as I could.

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 11:20:04

Everyone has a right to say what they like and what they don't, but this is never an excuse for silly sweeping generalisations and offensive transphobia.
(Or biphobia or any other prejudice). I don't think it is all about the person not the gender, else we would all be bisexual. And whereas I think we are all on a sliding scale of sexuality, most people do have likes and dislikes, be it for a certain set of genitals, hair colour, build etc.
I prefer feminine women with long hair and an attitude. Does it make me bigoted to say I don't find most butch women attractive?

BelaLugosisShed Sat 12-Jan-13 11:28:34

No, but it makes you quite the bigot to say that straight women are like noodles, that is - straight until you get them wet, haven't forgotten that little quip from you Gay40. And you have the nerve to call out other people.

ecofreeek Sat 12-Jan-13 13:28:15

its done.

kids are with their grandparents this weekend (xh being a tool as usual but that's another issue)

I was supposed to meet him tonight, but I called and asked if he would meet me for coffee this morning. I think he knew as soon as I called...

In the end I didn't have to lie, nor did it feel right to. He just said something like 'Its too much for you' - more as a statement than a question really. And i had to agree. I said I was sorry (which I am) and that I didn't intend to hurt him, and that I would respect his privacy... turns out few people in this town 'know' - its about 50 miles from his home town, obviously old friends and family do, but he has found it 'easier' not to disclose and has had no problem 'passing' as male (well I didn't spot it! ). He has mostly dated bisexual women, funny he seemed pleased that I didn't see him as a lesbian - he said others have called him that.

sorry if this is TMI - I can't really discuss IRL with my fantastic friends, as it feels.. um too personal (for him). I feel sad; relieved I have been honest, and quite tired :-(. Its given me a whole new insight into the stress and pain that transgendered people go through . Stuff that most of us don't think about - using the public toilet for example ... being in hospital (in a male bay with female genitals ??)

I hope we'll be friends. Not sure thats ok for him but I have left a kind of open invite to go and see Les Mis at the cinema.... if he wants too...

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 13:29:46

It's not a quip...it's been a fact.

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 13:31:29

But interesting that you hung onto that.

Ahem it's not a fact. You're talking pish dear.

OP I think that you dealt with it in the best way possible. Although its 'not for you', you're open minded enough to have some understanding of the 3rd party.

Here's hoping you have a good friend out of this anyway.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Sat 12-Jan-13 13:46:41

Eco, I think you handled it fine and have nothing to feel guilty about.

I am amazed how dense and bigoted some people are, though. No one is telling you that you must have sex with people of [insert designated group/class of choice that you don't personally find attractive]. You're just being told to STFU about how eeky, yucky, icky, freaky and abnormal you find it. But then, so many 'heterosexuals' are massively insecure about the idea that anyone might think, even for a minute, that they are not NORMAL.

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 13:56:47

It's been a fact in my experience. So not exactly pish.

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 13:57:33

SGB, some people are terrified by the thought of "other".

AnyFucker Sat 12-Jan-13 14:01:30

Gay, do you think that straight people can be "turned" gay then ?

Because if I said the converse, you would not be too pleased grin

A fact in your experience is not A Fact. It's your experience.

It can only be fact if it's proven to be known or true.

One person experiencing something does not make it A Fact.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Sat 12-Jan-13 15:34:59

It's a fact that most people are somewhere on a sliding scale between homosexual and heterosexual. How far they go in either direction is at least partly to do with how much importance they place on monogamy. The rest is a mix of opportunity (or lack of it) and how conformist or not their environment is. A lot of people who would not call themselves bisexual will have had or at least considered some sort of sexual experience with a person of the gender they don't normally desire.

FellatioNels0n Sat 12-Jan-13 15:41:25

I think we have one of those unspoken rules here, where gay people can say things in jest about straight people that would not work in reverse, like black people taking the piss out of white people. wink

Gay if you think that the only thing that 'turned' a straight woman gay is your super-duper skill between the sheets, then I think you might be deluding yourself a tad - if she was that straight she would not have been fooling around with you in the first place, would she? confused

Taking credit for turning someone, when in reality a lesbian or bi-woman has just happened to have her first gay experience with you, as opposed to someone else, is a bit teeny bit arrogant, don't you think? grin

I don't understand what bisexuality has to do with committment to monogamy?

Surely, if you are attracted to both men and women, you are simply attracted to both men and women. That doesn't mean you are more likely to want multiple partners or to want to cheat in a monogamous relationship. Why should it? It's like saying if I'm attracted to blond men and dark haired men, I'm more likely to prefer multiple partners because being with just one blond man wouldn't be enough.

I do agree that many people might have wider sexual preferences than those they habitually go with, but I really dislike the idea that being bisexual has any kind of interaction with how monogamous someone is.

I agree with mrsc that an experience is just anecdata, not 'fact', too.

Loquace Sat 12-Jan-13 16:10:09

How far they go in either direction is at least partly to do with how much importance they place on monogamy

As evidenced by firmly hetrosexual men, who are the last word in monogamy.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sat 12-Jan-13 16:20:47

I've slept with women who were pretty straight the next morning hmm . Sometimes people just want a head between their legs to see what it's like and the next day they can call it whatever they fancy.

Maybe I'm just shit in bed and I've turned them straight grin

I'm not, I'm fabulous wink

Monogamy is very important to me and whilst I have had some very short one night stands relationships, I have never had more than one relationship at a time. I do think, possibly, if I was going to cheat then it would be with a woman, as DP is a man, and I do miss women sometimes although the tiny number of people I meet and actually fancy is probably a pretty even split. But its not something I could really get any pleasure out of. Also I wouldn't want to sleep with someone who would sleep with someone who was cheating iyswim.

On an irrelevant note I have never, ever, despite my hugely varied tastes, been sexually attracted to a blonde person.

Gay40 You are welcome to try turn me into a noodle. grin

Maybe my dh could "straighten" you.

ti hi, I go all curly wurly, and you go all dry spaghetti!

FellatioNels0n Sat 12-Jan-13 17:48:14

LRD I completely agree with you.

Ithink those women who were 'pretty straight in the morning' were either in denial about their sexuality, or they were occasionally bisexual for a change of scenery but with much stronger hetero leanings, or perhaps they were just bi-curious and on having sampled a bit of you they were no longer curious and very much still straight. Some ladies are just not for turning.

KittenCamile Sat 12-Jan-13 19:03:34

I haven't read the whole thread sorry but if you are atractted to a person its that person you are atractted to not their genitals. I swing any which way I fall in love so this wouldn't be a problem in my eyes but that is just me.

The main thing would be making sure they are in a comfortable place to have some fun and a possible relationship but he was up front and honest from the start and that is a thing to be respected.

I don't see how monogamy and sexual prefrance are related, if someone is a cheating scumbag its a personality fault not a sexual oriantation.
Ps sorry about spelling, dyslexic and on my phone so no spell check. Hope it made sense! And good luck

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 19:28:15

Pure.....he wouldn't be the first husband who'd suggested a try.
Apologies to the wives of these morons.

NoGinorWine4Mu1berry Sat 12-Jan-13 19:30:53

NFW, and don't give out to me. There were women on a thread the other night who wouldn't date a short man. So I'm not gonna apologise!

Gay40 Sat 12-Jan-13 19:32:18

Fellatio, I've no explanation for why it is, but I've never claimed it was because of fucktalent. Just that vociferously straight women are rarely that - entirely straight. And afterwards, some stayed gay, some didn't.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Sat 12-Jan-13 19:37:27

No: being heterosexual doesn't mean you are automatically more monogamous than being gay or bi does. However, if you are very monogamous you will be more inclined to stifle any feelings of sexual attraction towards anyone other than your officially sanctioned partner, and if you settled on a life partner when you were young, you won't necessarily have explored your sexuality much.

NoGinorWine4Mu1berry Sat 12-Jan-13 19:47:16

Good posts from Fellatio, reading & nodding.

I would never find myself with a woman between my legs! it just wouldn't happen! I'm not "vociferously straight" as I have never even had an ocassion where I've needed to label myself. But I know I am straight. I can see why men like to look at breasts and I can see that they are aesthetically pleasing, but touching your own!? eeeooow.

NoGinorWine4Mu1berry Sat 12-Jan-13 19:49:04

No I don't see the link solid. I've been single for years. would like to meet somebody. Would aim to be monogomous. But have been single most of my adult life really and never ended up having a gay experience. I don't reckon it's to do with monogomy. I reckon it's to do with how gay you are.

Oh, I see, solid, that makes sense.

Plenty of people are gay and monogamous, or bi and monogamous, from a young age, but I expect you're right that some people who're bi and strongly monogamous simply don't know it because they've settled down already.

I bet that is slightly annoying, Gay40! wink

TwoFacedCows Sat 12-Jan-13 23:20:55

It is VERY common on certain sites, where you are looking purely for sex to specify: no black men/no Asian men/ no white men etc.

I do not think that this is in any way racist. it is just your preference of who you want to have sex with, much like you say if you are looking for male or female. Or if transgender/transsexual is something you are open to!

Ithinkineedtogrowapair Sun 13-Jan-13 00:32:22

Just want to say I agree that this trams person is for sure not 'lesbian' or a woman. He is a man. Check out Juliet Jaques columns in the guardian on transition if you'd like to understand this a bit better. I think she explains it better than I ever could.

Gay40 Sun 13-Jan-13 00:47:23

Oh, I can get over a bit of annoying. I'll tell you what makes me laugh. That old stereotype of man-hating lesbians. Straight women hate men far more than any lesbian I've ever met. And the evidence for that is all around - on MN, RL, just about every forum or social situation I've ever been in.
For ladies who love cock, you sure do hate a lot about the attachment to it.

confused

Who does?

What's with all the generalizations about straight women? It's bizarre.

olympicgirl17 Sun 13-Jan-13 01:05:11

I haven't read all of this thread, so i'll just say my bit regarding the first post.

I would be happy to date him, in my opinion it's the person that counts not the gender.
If you like him go for it wink maybe just take smaller steps in the sex department until you are both comfy with it. Sex without it can still be fun smile

BelaLugosisShed Sun 13-Jan-13 12:03:49

"However, if you are very monogamous you will be more inclined to stifle any feelings of sexual attraction towards anyone other than your officially sanctioned partner, and if you settled on a life partner when you were young, you won't necessarily have explored your sexuality much."

I would not take the word of someone who understands monogamy so little.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 13-Jan-13 12:15:34

If you like him go for it maybe just take smaller steps in the sex department until you are both comfy with it. Sex without it can still be fun

I dont really understand this concept. I think if your not comfortable at the thought of having sex because he's not got a penis, or (for me) because i would't be able to get past the fact that he used to be a woman, I don't think any any amount of time would make me comfortable with the situation, regardless of my feelings for them.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 13-Jan-13 12:43:23

I knew I was bisexual years before I had sex with anyone. I thought I was gay at about 10/11 and bisexual from about 13/14. I didn't have to explore my sexuality to know that I liked girls and boys.

To be fair to SGB, I think there are people who settle down with one person early on, and don't realize they're bi, or don't think about it much. It's not necessarily a bad thing, we're all different in terms of how much exploring we need to do.

MajesticWhine Sun 13-Jan-13 12:57:01

I tend to agree with IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou - also knew I was bisexual from a young age, I settled on a life partner very early on, but same sex attraction is impossible to stifle, it comes and goes, but it can't be shut in the closet. If you don't think about it much, then I expect you're probably quite straight on the spectrum, rather than not having had a chance to explore.

TheSecondComing Sun 13-Jan-13 13:00:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FellatioNels0n Sun 13-Jan-13 16:12:56

If you like him go for it maybe just take smaller steps in the sex department until you are both comfy with it. Sex without it can still be fun

And once again I need to say would you say this to a lesbian or a gay man to persuade them to have straight sex?

If the OP needs to work her way up to it, swallow a few stiff gins fro dutch courage, and get 'comfortable' with it, then it's not right. Is it? Simple really.

olympicgirl17 Mon 14-Jan-13 00:11:23

@tittytittyhanghang and FellatioNels0n

Geez don't take what i said so seriously please!

I think some ppl can be a bit apprehensive for a reason or another about having a new sexual relashionship with a new partner and it doesn't matter the gender or the sex. So they may like to take their time while others well... they just jump into bed with a new partner as soon as they get the chance grin

If the OP is feeling such that deep down she clearly knows that she couldn't be in bed with this man then of course i'm not suggesting time will change that.

Ithinkineedtogrowapair Mon 14-Jan-13 09:29:37

Thesecondcoming going out with this person would not make the op a lesbian. Or require being one. See earlier posts on what this man may really look like/ seem like. Ie male.

FellatioNels0n Mon 14-Jan-13 12:10:01

But the question is would you sleep with 'him'? And how can you sleep with a 'him' who has a vagina? Whatever he may identify as, biologically he is still a woman. Ans for that you need to be a lesbian, or at least bi-curious. It's not that difficult to grasp, surely?

although in his case, it is. Boom-boom. wink

NoGinorWine4Mu1berry Mon 14-Jan-13 12:14:34

I don't think that's fair gay40. There are lots of women currently putting up with a lot of shit and posting about it, but I thnk that that's a wake up and smell the coffee phase at the end of a relationship.

I was one of those posters, years ago, and I know there are nice men out there. I've had one relationship with a really nice man and the only person I ever blamed for my x's bad behaviour was my x. It hasn't turned me against all men, I don't expect all men to think or act like my x. He is the Ambassador for one person only, Himself.

Just because one vents about a partner or spouse online doesn't mean that one hates all men. The posts here areusually about the relationship, the dynamic. I don't see any posts saying 'all men are the same' or 'i hate all men'. In fact on any of those threads you will see lots of posters saying that you should 'ltb' because there ARE nice men out there.

Being quite certain that you won't tolerate such and such in the future doesn't make you a man-hater. It means you'll have your eyes open in any future relationship, which for most of us will be with a man. That is very different from being a man-hater and I'm sure you DO get that.

Gay40 Mon 14-Jan-13 13:39:27

Indeed. I find most men lovely, but I'm not in a relationship with them.

HeyHoHereWeGo Mon 14-Jan-13 13:56:22

fellatio I agree, the posts on here of "oh give it a go you never know you might like it" sound like 12 year olds trying out their first cigarettes!
We are women.
We know our own minds.
Our sexuality is our own, not some gift to give to people just because they like us and they seem nice.
Would you try to persuade a man to bend/change/twist his sexuality just because a man seemed nice?
It is beyond bizarre that the transgenderd right to a sex life is stronger in some people's minds than the right of OP to know what she wants and does not want.
Peculiar.

garlicblocks Mon 14-Jan-13 14:10:53

This thread's been weird all the way! Your posts, eco, were among the least weird and I really respect the way you reached your conclusion and let your friend down kindly.

HeyHo, your "sexuality as gift" post, above, is strange. Nobody told OP she had a duty to offer sex to transgendered men confused They suggested quite reasonably that, if she wasn't sure she'd enjoy sex with her new date, she could find out by doing it.

garlicblocks Mon 14-Jan-13 14:13:40

the right of OP to know what she wants and does not want

... Now, if men with smaller-than-average penises had the courtesy to share that information on a first date, I'd have got a few nights' more sleep!

digerd Mon 14-Jan-13 14:15:46

For the first few weeks in the womb both sexes have a little appendage. Later when the chromosomes determine the sex the females appendage shrinks back to form the Clitoris and the male develops into a penis.
I have watched several documentaries of female to male transgender procedures and processes, and the administering of testosterone and oestragen blockers enlarges the Clitoris . The one I remember seeing developed into the size of my thick middle finger - in width-. The length increased too, but was hidden by the Clitoral Hood, which had to be manually pulled back to be seen. The patient asked if the Hood could be surgically removed, but can't remember if that was possible. Also I don't remember what happened to the female Labia.
Found it amazing and fascinating as the male voice, facial hair.muscly neck and shoulders developed in 6 months of the hormone treatment. The arms and hands were all male too.
One had male baldness in the family and that developed too, but was accepted.
Testicles and gonads cannot be developed, just as males cannot develop wombs and ovaries with the hormones.

Lueji Mon 14-Jan-13 14:16:30

I think you did the right thing for you and him, Eco.
And good on you for being honest with him.

It is complicated, particularly before the complete transformation, and he knows it.

But, you should not force anything you're not comfortable with, just to be politically correct or something.
You were probably not that into him anyway.

garlicblocks Mon 14-Jan-13 14:20:51

You're right, Digerd, biological sex is a continuum not a binary and is also mutable. Same with sexuality, most would agree.

You're wrong that the clitoris 'shrinks', though, it's huge! Just arranged differently: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris - diagram top right.

garlicblocks Mon 14-Jan-13 14:21:40

Ovaries are gonads.

JoanByers Mon 14-Jan-13 14:52:48

bollocks

NoGinorWine4Mu1berry Mon 14-Jan-13 15:02:38

//Gay40, so, what's the point you're making? that lesbian couples always have equal relationships?, that no woman could ever take advantage of another woman, that both women in a relationship with eachother both feel equally confident /insecure....... so often it's the dynamic between two people that is the issue.

But what you're saying seems to be that gay women know their own minds, straight women aren't sure and should try being gay... Straight women hate men more than lesbians hate men??? I think you are beginning to de-rail here with these statements!

garlicblocks Mon 14-Jan-13 15:28:28

Nice one, Joan wink

digerd Mon 14-Jan-13 18:28:38

Garlic
Your link re. Clitoris was very interesting. Wish we were build like Hyenas < grin face> But can't be that sensitive if used as a birth canal. I did know that both sexes of Hyenas had penis like appendages and is difficult to tell the sex gendre at a glance.
I thought gonads were male bits inside?
Realised I had used a capital C for Clitoris but a small p for the male penis. !!
In some cultures it is surgically removed in girls at 7 to stop them having any sexual feelings at all to keep them virgins before they marry and faithful to their husbands.

superstarheartbreaker Mon 14-Jan-13 18:57:13

I personally wouldn't have a relationship with a transgebdered person as I need cock! Each to their own. Refusing someone on this basis is very reasonable.

Ithinkineedtogrowapair Mon 14-Jan-13 21:02:20

Just been reading about the furore about Julie burchills article in the observer, which basically is obscenely hateful towards transpeople. Lots of depressing statistics in the comments , like 41% suicide in the trans population compared to 1% in the general population and some stuff on the horrendous numbers of murders worldwide. Basically as has also been shown by this thread seems there is a lot of misunderstanding of how why people trans and all the obstacles and prejudice they encounter..

2rebecca Mon 14-Jan-13 21:11:33

No, I think largely because I don't believe you can "change sex", and people I've met who have wanted to do so have had more rigid ideas of gender than I am comfortable with. Why not just be a lesbian? You can wear the same sort of clothes, what's so great about getting to use the men's loos and the right to go in a men's prison if convicted? What is the whole "really a man" or "really a woman" all about? It involves far more fixed ideas of what it means to be a man or woman that I like.
I think being comfortable with who you are is important to me and I'd feel that someone who had to have surgery and hormone treatment before they were comfortable with who they are wouldn't be right for me.
And if I want a sexual relationship with a man I'd prefer a functioning cock, if I'm going to have a lesbian relationship I'd prefer a woman who was physically a woman. She can wear masculine clothing but I'd want her not to be repulsed by her breasts and envious of penises.

Boomerwang Tue 15-Jan-13 07:49:04

If my very faint memory of biology serves me, a gonad is where zygotes are made and stored. Zygotes are sperm and eggs, so gonads are testicles and ovaries.

Feel free to correct me. Been a lonnnnnng time since school.

Nearly Boomerwang, sperm and eggs are gametes, zygotes are fertilised eggs.

digerd Tue 15-Jan-13 12:53:10

Just seen a youtube video < diagram>. The male reproductive system is quite complicated, and the sperm has to travel upwards from the testes up the tubes in the groin to travel over the Prostrate gland and into the penis, with lots of helping hands on the way.
Think I must have meant the Prostrate Gland, not Gonads.

Lueji Tue 15-Jan-13 14:01:11

2rebecca

I think gender identity is difficult to understand for us who are comfortable with their own gender.

We don't know what it feels like to think you are a man, but for everyone else to treat you like a woman, and looking at your body and not recognising the idea you have of yourself with what you see in the mirror.

It could be as if someone went on a coma at 10 years of age and woke up a 50 year old. The person you were wasn't the one in your mind.

irresponsible2013 Tue 15-Jan-13 14:04:25

*AmberLeaf: this description is entirely NOT within my experience of trans people: "a woman who has had her breasts removed"

My mother and a friend of mine are women who have had their breasts removed (cancer). They are still women.

Prior to dating my first girlfriend, I would have sworn incorrectly I was straight. She was pre-op male to female, and once I got past the body type, she was definately female.

2rebecca Tue 15-Jan-13 14:12:50

I don't believe that people should treat women greatly different to how they treat men though. I work in a job open to both sexes and have unisexual hobbies.
I don't believe I have one way of treating people I apply to men and another for women. I find all that stuff very sexist, which is one of the problems I have with the transexual philosophy. I want to be treated politley, as a person.

AmberLeaf Tue 15-Jan-13 14:12:50

irresponsible2013

Not sure why you've named me in your post?

Lueji Tue 15-Jan-13 14:23:21

2rebecca

Genders do exist and recognising that there are differences and to treat them somewhat differently, is not being sexist.
It is sexist to treat one gender better or worse than the other.

I do agree that often transgender people do appear more strongly of one gender than most members of that gender. For example, most male to female are often very much on the top range of femininity, if you can call it that.
It could be that they feel that they have to break with the "old" very strongly, or that what drove them to go through the process of physical sex change was that they felt very strongly as definitive females.

Most of us somewhere towards the middle of the spectrum might not feel the need for a sex change. Some men may just need to dress as women, for example, as some women dress more manly.
Some might have been equally comfortable as a male or a female.

irresponsible2013 Tue 15-Jan-13 14:27:45

because I am a muppet. Astley is the one I meant, sorry!

AmberLeaf Tue 15-Jan-13 14:32:28

grin

I was thinking Im sure I didnt say that!

CoreOfLore Tue 15-Jan-13 14:51:38

I'd give it a shot, I'm the type to try anything in the bedroom in the bedroom once.

Worst case scenario a vagina on a man would be too twilight zony for me and I would have to end it, but it wouldn't hurt to try.

ladymontdore Tue 15-Jan-13 15:01:43

What a weird thread.

OP I'm glad you have reached a decision you are comfortable with. Sounds like he wasn't entirely suprised so I hope you can still be friends.

FWIW if I kissed a man and then they told me they were originally a woman, I'd be really cross! I appreciate people's right to have gender surgery etc and can understand that a post op person fully identifies themselves as their new sex and should be treated as such BUT that doesn't mean that I (and I suspect lots of others) would feel that they were actually a man. For me a post op transgender man would ALWAYS, in reallity be a woman; that isn't 'ignorance' or 'bigotry', it's my opinion and we are allowed to have opinions. I would call him him and treat him as a man in every way but if I were to think about him sexually then I wouldn't be able to think of him as a 'man'. I can't see how people say this has nothing to do with sexuality. If a woman sleeps with another woman (albeit one that has taken hormones etc but still has a vagina) how can they not both be lesbisan. A straight woman would find that felt very unatural for them. I expect someone will point out my ignorance, but again it's just a different opinion.

I also fail to see how if someone is XX chromosone-wise and has normally developed male genitals they can be described as having the 'wrong genitals'. They've got the right genitals but, for whatever reason, they don't like them. It's not at all the same as being hermaphrodite or having actually physical abnormalities. Sex, with a small number of exceptions, is binary.

delilah88 Tue 15-Jan-13 15:55:40

I'd certainly give it a go -- dating is only dating. You can think about all the serious bits if it starts being long term. It might be quite exciting!

Ithinkineedtogrowapair Tue 15-Jan-13 20:04:06

Ladymontdore they have the wrong genitals compared to their view of themselves, to their strong sense of who they are. Maybe worth googling gender dysmorphia - its a very recognised condition! Or as I said read Juliet Jaques columns in the guardian!

Also read a column recently where a m-f described it in terms of change or death - the gap between your perception of what you are and your body is so vast that suicide seems preferable to continuing to live with such a profound dissonance. Sadly suicide is not uncommon.

2rebecca. If you think you are a man and you are going out with a woman that doesn't make you a lesbian....

2rebecca Tue 15-Jan-13 20:17:14

I think it does. This person has female chromosomes and female genitalia. A cat can't become a sheep just because it wants to be a sheep. I do fundamentally disagree with the premise that a man can "become" a woman, particularly if they haven't bothered with gender reassignement surgery. It's all very half hearted and in fantasy land to me.

Ithinkineedtogrowapair Tue 15-Jan-13 23:01:43

2rebecca the fact you say 'not bothered ' or half hearted really makes me think you do not understand the situation at all. There is a big range for transsexuals, for example for m to f before they are approved for surgery they have to live as women for a while, meanwhile they take hormones which make significant changes to their bodies, voices ... Then the final step after a number of years may be surgery. Read the columns I mentioned earlier by Juliet Jaques and then see if you still think 'fantasy' or half hearted. It's an incredibly hard process both physically and psychologically.

Loquace Wed 16-Jan-13 00:14:15

particularly if they haven't bothered with gender reassignement surgery

I've done more reading on transgendered issues in the last couple of days than my eyes have forgiven me for. Particulary since I can't find my glasses.

But....

It's not a case of "haven't bothered", there are a plathroa of issues involved arpund the decsion to have surgury on the genital. Some of the easiest for people like me who aren't transgendered to understand are

the risks of losing sexual function
the cost
the awful hoop jumping one has to go through in order to get cleared by psych for surgury
the results are not always anything like as good as what was hoped for.

Some people put off surgury becuase they are waiting for medical advances to catch up and offer something better. There are two surguries for transmen at the moment, and both have significant drawbacks.

It is much more involved and full of reasonable and "relatable to" issues than "can't be bothered".

Damash12 Wed 16-Jan-13 00:19:07

Err No .. Couldn't do it.

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 07:49:03

Next time anyone sees me on a transgender thread, please remind me to get off and hide it. The ignorance from some of you is astonishing. And dressing it up as 'opinion' doesn't make it any less so.

AmberLeaf Wed 16-Jan-13 08:22:16

There is some ignorance on this thread, but it is silly to shout down valid opinions that differ from yours as ignorance or bigotry.

With issues such as this, when people shout down a person saying that a man born with a fully functioning male body is a man and always will be regardless of what bits they have removed surgically, it all gets a bit emperors new clothes-ish IMO.

I think every single person deserves to be happy and live as they wish, I would defend a persons right to identify as they wish.

But you cant call stating facts ignorance it is the exact opposite.

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 08:24:55

An opinion can still be ignorant, and it's silly and naive to say otherwise.

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 08:26:04

And if you're talking about me "shouting [people] down", perhaps you could show me where?

Loquace Wed 16-Jan-13 08:47:05

The ignorance from some of you is astonishing

The importing to the mainstream of "sweeping statements to scattergun posters" in lieu of debating individual posters and their specific points and the determination to assume the worst possible motivation behind anybody's from the radicalised fringes of the debate is astonishing to me.

Look how well it turned out there, some real changing of hearts and minds and digging people out of entrenched, instinctive postions....NOT.

If all people want from this debate is to sit around feeling more "informed and right" than anybody else, then have the fuck at it.

I'll come back and play if anybody is ever genuinly interested in looking at pratical solutions to very real life impacting issues, on the understanding that compromise can't be a one way street (or it isn't actually called compromise anymore) and the debate can't be run on the basis that X is inherantly the correct postion and Y is inherantly the wrong postion.

In the meantime I won't be holding my breath, cos it pretty much looks like the mainstream is DETERMINED to replicate the dynamic of fringe.

Frankly I cannot be arsed with anything that couldn't be less about working towards real, social change to ease the discrimination burden on a group of people, (with an eye to not accidntaly trampling another discriminated against group in the rush to aid people at the the thin end of the wedge) than it is about chest thumping, waggling presumed moral superiority and carrying on a rabid bunfight that is more than 30 years old.

What a mess.

Loquace Wed 16-Jan-13 08:53:38

motivation behind anybody's words

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 08:55:53

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, loquace blush

msrisotto Wed 16-Jan-13 08:57:22

Really Toby? It's not hard to understand...

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 08:58:58

Yes, really.

msrisotto Wed 16-Jan-13 08:59:32

Oh well.

Loquace Wed 16-Jan-13 09:00:03

Tony

Story of my life grin

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 09:04:00

But thanks for being so helpful, msrisotto hmm

seeker Wed 16-Jan-13 09:04:22

"An opinion can still be ignorant, and it's silly and naive to say otherwise."

Well, obviously.

However, I will defend to the death the right for a person to say where, when and with whom they choose to have sex.

I do wonder whether all the "oh, go on, you never know, you might like it" posters would be saying the same if the OP was a man, and the prospective partner a m/f transgender person. I suspect not.

The unspoken feeing that women should be sexually available at all times is still very strong.

seeker Wed 16-Jan-13 09:05:44

Oh, and I didn't understand Loquace's post either.

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 09:11:57

Oh, seeker, that's not what I meant about the ignorance. Of course people have the right to choose with whom they have sex. You'd never find me saying otherwise, and I'm sorry if it came across like that. Absolutely not what I meant.

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 09:13:01

And I would never be one of the "go on, you might like it" people.

AmberLeaf Wed 16-Jan-13 10:17:17

Loquaces post made sense to me.

Particularly;

If all people want from this debate is to sit around feeling more "informed and right" than anybody else, then have the fuck at it

If someone poses a valid question that is met with 'oh thats is sooo ignorant' what is the point?

AmberLeaf Wed 16-Jan-13 10:19:51

An opinion can still be ignorant, and it's silly and naive to say otherwise

Purely because it differs from yours? because that is the scenario Im talking about, not opinions in general.

Hullygully Wed 16-Jan-13 10:23:18

How did I miss this?

seeker Wed 16-Jan-13 10:25:19

Why do I always get a sneaking feeling that many of the people on threads like this have never knowingly met a transgendered person? Or, for that matter, a lesbian or a gay man..... grin

Obviously, I know many have, so no need for self-justification.

2rebecca Wed 16-Jan-13 10:37:49

Because it helps you disregard opinions you disagree with in a "they probably don't know what they are talking about" sort of way?

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 10:40:21

Honestly? Some of you genuinely think that opinions, which are by definition not necessarily based in fact, are only considered ignorant by people who disagree with them?

Projecting much?

waltermittymistletoe Wed 16-Jan-13 10:46:15

How is ignorance on this or any issue to be addresses if the only answers to a variety of questions are:

"You're so ignorant"
"You're not really straight you only think you are"
"You're vanilla and boring"

And, worst of all:

"Why not try it. You might like it".

So it's ok to pressure a woman to have sex with someone she's not comfortable with, as long as it's for the sake of preserving a transgendered man's feelings? I've seen it all now!

TobyLerone Wed 16-Jan-13 10:49:22

I didn't say or imply any of those things, apart from (sort of) the first one. I have already explained that my use of the word 'ignorant' was in no way directed at anyone who chooses not to have sex with anyone, for any reason.

The ignorance is shown by those who choose to apply their own definitions to the issue of transgender.

Hullygully Wed 16-Jan-13 10:49:53

<waves to Loq>

TheFallenNinja Wed 16-Jan-13 10:54:04

So long as you aren't squeamish about the plumbing and your up to speed with the deal, why not.

seeker Wed 16-Jan-13 10:56:35

When I was a young woman some straight women used to get very overexcited if they had a friend who happened to be gay. (a gay man, obviously, lesbians were still a bit too.....exoticgrin). And sometimes they used to let gay men get away with appalling behaviour, and defend them to the hilt because they were so excited by their own open mindedness and liberalism. I do sometimes wonder if there's is an element of that thinking around transgender issues. "Of course it wouldn't matter to me if my boyfriend had a penis or not - I'm far too open minded to worry about little things like that!"

waltermittymistletoe Wed 16-Jan-13 10:56:35

That wasn't aimed at you specifically, Toby.

It's more an observation having read the thread.

There's a lot of shouting about ignorance and how boring people are for daring to be heterosexual! Even posters going so far as to say they're not really heterosexual. Comments that wouldn't be tolerated the other way around I'm guessing!

There doesn't seem to be any real attempt to combat the ignorance with informed and well articulated debate however. Surely the way to address ignorance is with information not insults?

Loquace Wed 16-Jan-13 11:01:58