Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

Kissing during sex

(85 Posts)
Seekingthezone Sun 06-Jan-13 13:34:44

When DW and I had sex she would always refuse to kiss during the act. I found this odd as GIfs prior to marriage had always kissed. I found it quite sensual and part of the joy. it was a simulation as well. it was dental hygiene getting in the way either.

it seemed really odd to me that we could be in the middle of the most intimate thing that a couple does and she felt uncomfortable kissing during it.

Any one else come across this or have views why she would not kiss.

She will kiss to say good night. But that is a dry very quick kiss. No passion.

Btw married for 10+ years but it has always been like that.

Numberlock Sun 06-Jan-13 13:36:21

What has she said when you've asked her about it?

strumpetpumpkin Sun 06-Jan-13 13:36:56

have you asked her?

all women are not the same. Is she squeamish?
My ex husband didnt like kissing much . Pissed me off

Numberlock Sun 06-Jan-13 13:38:40

Same with my last boyfriend, strumpet. Yet another reason why I'm glad I'm no longer with him.

How's the rest of the relationship OP?

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 06-Jan-13 13:40:48

After 10+ years isn't it a bit late to find out why she doesn't like it, let alone decide it's a problem?

Numberlock Sun 06-Jan-13 13:45:58

That's what I thought too...

Also I notice the sex bit of your post is written in the past tense eg when we had sex. Do you no longer have sex?

badinage Sun 06-Jan-13 13:46:10

When you say it has always been like that, do you mean you've never snogged? confused

You also say 'when DW and I had sex' so does that mean you're not having sex now either?

Kissing's more intimate than sex in my opinion. To snog someone enthusiastically, you've usually got to be 'into' them in every way.

Helltotheno Sun 06-Jan-13 13:52:49

Agree with last poster. I think lots of people go off kissing when they're in LTRs...

I don't like kissing much sad I have issues and I really should get them sorted

so i can see why your DW wouldn't want to. I think ones you've not snogged for a long time, it's hard to get back into it. It's also really hard to explain, I feel like I would like to but not when it come to it.

Are you my DH?

BelaLugosisShed Sun 06-Jan-13 14:02:46

Passionate kissing is far more intimate than any sexual contact, I'd say she has an issue with true intimacy.

badinage Sun 06-Jan-13 14:07:50

DH and I have often said that we could probably cope with a sex drought better than a snogging drought - not that we'd want either!

I often feel that no snogging's more of a red flag in a relationship than no sex.

digerd Sun 06-Jan-13 14:20:52

Agree. Kissing is the loving part of intimacy.

WaspFactory Sun 06-Jan-13 14:24:09

My ex husband and BF before him didn't like kissing and I hated it. BF before that would only kiss me like he was trying to find out what my stomach tasted like hmm. Luckily new partner loves it and is a very gentle kisser. Agree with all those saying it's as important, if not more so, than sex, for maintaining intimacy.

I had an ex who wasn't into snogging. Should have seen that as a red flag but didn't - sex life was poor too. I was convinced it was all me and that I was crap. Thank God for next girlfriend who one night told me I was the most sensual kisser she'd ever met (prior to my telling her my ex hated my kissing her) and restored my confidence.

PeachTown Sun 06-Jan-13 15:05:23

I love and fancy my DH to death. However... during sex I often need to fantasise (about him usually) and get a bit lost in my head in order to orgasm. Kissing at certain points would put me off. Could that be it?

jojoanna Sun 06-Jan-13 19:10:39

I have never liked snogging my DH. I do miss snogging but i'm used to it now.
Still love him to bits though

ClippedPhoenix Sun 06-Jan-13 20:22:29

Totally depends with DP and I.

If it's a morning one then no kissing grin

Fairylea Sun 06-Jan-13 21:31:00

Sorry to be blunt but are you absolutely sure it's not a teeth or breath issue?

No smoking etc ? Alcohol ?

Any of those things would put me off.

BunnyKelly Sun 06-Jan-13 22:13:35

Agree with fairylea . I've gone out with girls who wouldn't leave the house without perfume, but would jump on me straight after smoking. Horrible.

Convict224 Mon 07-Jan-13 00:21:48

Eric, is that you again? FFS I told you why...

izzyizin Mon 07-Jan-13 00:27:23

Oh do please put us out of our misery tell us, Convict... I won't be able to sleep tonight if I don't know.

AnyFucker Mon 07-Jan-13 00:28:59

heh

rainbowinthesky Mon 07-Jan-13 00:34:02

Convict- pmsl

Seekingthezone Mon 07-Jan-13 09:38:42

wow quite a few responses there and a number of them confirm my belief that it is not all who behave that way or find it acceptable.

To answer some of the questions

Yes it is sex in the past tense.Nothing in the last few months, including my birthday. She withdrew sex as a punishment but that is another story.

Our sex life has been degrading for 10 years now. I can see that now looking back.

It was not apparent at the beginning, became so in the middle part and has then just laid in the background as one more unresolved issue.

I am sure it is not alcohol/smoking/food. I asked why and she said she just did not like it, my kisses were two wet (I was not trying to French kiss her either). She only likes brief touches on the lips and for it to be completely dry which to me is not a passionate, kiss. The type of thing you give your loved one.

I am very interested in the comment that kissing is considered by some to be more intimate than intercourse. Why do you see it that way?

WaspFactory Mon 07-Jan-13 11:05:22

Seeking - I feel that way, not sure why, it just feels like a really loving, romantic, intimate connection. Obviously sex is too, don't get me wrong, but it's also about lust and fulfilment.

fluffyraggies Mon 07-Jan-13 11:17:54

Deeply kissing is more intimate than sex because during sex it is quite easy to detatch yourself mentally almost completely. You can 'go to another place' in your head, and still perform adequately.

Kissing is another story for me. A deep passionate kiss is breathtaking. The world stands still and only you and your partner exist for that moment. As a poster upthread said - you have really be into your DP for a good kissing session.

Numberlock Mon 07-Jan-13 11:44:42

She withdrew sex as a punishment but that is another story
Our sex life has been degrading for 10 years now
one more unresolved issue

It sounds like there's quite a lot going on here, OP, do you want to give us some more detail?

cheeseandpineapple Mon 07-Jan-13 11:55:55

Fluffy is right. That's why Pretty Woman prostitute Julia Robertson could shag Richard Gere but wouldn't kiss him to begin with.

Kissing way more intimate.

Vagaceratops Mon 07-Jan-13 11:58:59

Do you have a beard/lots of stubble?

BertieBotts Mon 07-Jan-13 12:04:17

Sounds like there's something huge underlying this. I agree with the posters who say kissing is very important and sensual. I often can't get properly into sex without a good kiss. DP doesn't like kissing in the morning because of morning breath and it's always disappointing for me!

Seekingthezone Mon 07-Jan-13 14:18:17

No beardsmile

Yes you are right there is lots going on. I have been trying to rationalise behaviours to firstly understand what has been happening and then look to what could/should be done on the future cos at the moment it is very broken.

I have tried to discuss issues in the past around the physical side of the relationship but was told I was always going on about sex. I wasn't, but did want to sort it out as it is a very important part of the relationship to me.

Even in the past when sex was good and I would say something after to that effect DW would not talk about it. It was like she was unable to discuss topics like this, even the good things, not just the problems. So there is something amis there I feel. After all I am not asking for a discussion in front of her family. It was just the two of us, alone

Very interesting about the differences between sex and missing so thanks for the insight. I live and learn! That would explain why we ended up having discussions about jobs and shopping and the like just after the big moment.smile I was much more involved, physically and mentally I guess.

Numberlock Mon 07-Jan-13 15:04:37

Simple (and genuine) question - why are you with her?

bubbles1231 Mon 07-Jan-13 15:11:38

Er- you're not the partner of this person are you?
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1653282-Love-DH-but-dont-want-to-have-Sex-how-can-i-keep-my-husband

bubbles1231 Mon 07-Jan-13 15:11:55
TwoFacedCows Mon 07-Jan-13 15:13:36

DH and I do not kiss during sex.

We are an affectionate couple, always kissing on lips or cheek, always telling each other how much we love each other, always hugging and snuggling.

But we just do not kiss during sex. We very very rarely French kiss.

I dont think he is bothered either, We are very open about our love and our relationship. We have a VERY exciting/unusual sex life, so our lack of kissing has nothing to do with that!

might have to check he is ok with our current kissing situation!! grin

Seekingthezone Mon 07-Jan-13 19:34:19

bubbles thanks for the suggestion but no that is not my DW. Interesting to read it though

Reason for being together is DC. If I force a split it messes an awful lot up including education of DC (fees) and I cannot force that.

Problem is I am the only feeling the pain. DW doesn't want intimacy and has shut down that side. She is seemingly happy in a sexless existence. So it is no issue for her. She has what she wants. I am the one desiring intimacy and I am locked into life as-is for a significant number of years with very little prospect of change. Not looking for sympathy just understanding of how others cope, behave etc.

Numberlock Mon 07-Jan-13 21:02:13

How do you you cope? Get yourself a lover same as she probably has.

Or do the decent thing and end it for everybody's sakes, especially the children's.

Seekingthezone Mon 07-Jan-13 22:46:16

Interesting thought.

I know I would end it if DC did not exist. I just cannot stare into the abyss and do it today though. Call me a wimp, one friend already did grin , but DC are in a better position than I ever was and pulling the plug will mean they are behind and I cannot bring myself to do it for what seems to be a selfish thing when I view it from some angles. Mind you it is a contract broken from another view.

I am beginning to feel like I might have invested in the wrong genetic bank at this point. A bit too late to opt out sadly. Where are the FSA when you need, then grin . Caveat emptor.

Seekingthezone Mon 07-Jan-13 22:50:47

You are right though Numberlock, it is driving me nuts.

I was never one to rush for the forums to check out my life and behaviour but this issue has. I have to say I find it reassuring to see that I am not. going crazy, despite how it often feels. So a big thanks to you and your fellow posters for taking the time you have to share thoughts and experiences.

perfectstorm Tue 08-Jan-13 05:48:03

Severely tongue tied people can't kiss with tongues, either. But the problems here sound rather more entrenched than that. I don't think the chief issue is the kissing; it's the lack of communication and mutual respect.

perfectstorm Tue 08-Jan-13 05:49:43

How old are the DC? I ask because if they're teens, remaining is tenable. If they're very young, their schools won't compensate for an utterly miserable family life.

Numberlock Tue 08-Jan-13 08:52:12

I'm wondering why in your
original post you just mentioned the issue of no kissing during sex when there's clearly so much to this. You sound in denial, also slightly martytish. I doubt the kids will thank you or their mother for this situation in the future. Is this the model of relationships and family life you want to show them.

Also interesting that your answer to my question why you are with her was about the kids, no mention of her.

What is your wife 'punishing' you for?

FellatioNelson Tue 08-Jan-13 09:02:03

Hmm. Well if bad breath and smoking are ruled out then it must be the wet kisses. I can't stand wet kissers. Even people who kiss me on the cheek and leave it wet makes me a bit queasy.

Is she one of those people who has a real issue with noisy/sloppy eaters as well? I bet she is. grin

It is perfectly possible to like French kissing but still not like 'wet kissers' if you know what I mean. Work on keeping your lips free from saliva. Although it might be a bit late now if she has already decided that there is no hope for you in the moistness department.

badinage Tue 08-Jan-13 09:11:07

You seem to be stockpiling grievances against your wife and using this forum to do it. I notice you've got another thread complaining about her taking severance from the job that had been making her miserable for 18 months. On that thread, you complained about the time you spent listening to her work woes and a bit like this one, posted a misleading OP that got everyone frothing about how damned unreasonable she was, until a few savvy posters asked some pertinent questions and it turned out that was old news that you're still sore about.

I'd be interested in your wife's take on this, or why you need your hatred for your wife bolstering right now.........

perfectstorm Tue 08-Jan-13 10:04:35

Yeah, I was coming back this morning to ask: have you met someone who seems to understand you so much better, and with whom you just feel more able to talk, recently? Because your overall tone does rather seem to indicate that you may have, tbh. There's just that edge, somehow. A comparing to how things might have been, so to speak.

badinage Tue 08-Jan-13 10:09:57

Sounds like our pennies dropped at exactly the same time perfect storm....

So to speak....

perfectstorm Tue 08-Jan-13 10:44:38

Quite.

Meanwhile, on another thread... wink

Seekingthezone Wed 09-Jan-13 01:33:13

badinage I disagree that I am using the forum to stockpile grievances.

One could just as easily accuse some people of using this as an outlet for arrogance and as a nice place to make armchair judgements.

I came to this website to get the views and experiences on a number of issues that I have found bewildering.

The kissing issue I have looked far and wide at before coming here, including agony aunt columns to see what the span of behaviour was and whether I was expecting something that people simply do not do. This forum was another source of information and was informative at the start. It is obviously taking a twist now and is well past the original post. I came for opinions and feel I am now in the dock being tried by arrogance and sarcasm from two great wits.

Leaving the job is a real issue that is still with us despite it being considered to be old news. It hurt and bewildered me and has taken time to talk about it.

It did not seem appropriate to post both in the same item which is why I split them.

To save the search there was a third issue about to cope with completely mismatched sex drives whilst still maintaining a reasonable environment for teenage DC rather than simply resorting to divorce which is just going to create a different set of problems.

Yes the relationship is deeply troubled and I am trying to tackle each of the parts. Many of the bits I do not need help with and that is why they have not appeared here so the whole picture is far from disclosed.

Still I need not worry because I am sure that you will have a resolution to it all when you get out of your armchair to.type it.

perfectstorm Wed 09-Jan-13 04:06:08

Sorry, but you haven't answered the question, which is very relevant to advice we can offer.

Is there a woman you talk to and feel emotionally close to, other than your wife?

AnyFucker Wed 09-Jan-13 07:29:05

Another question. Does your wife use Mumsnet ?

CabbageLeaves Wed 09-Jan-13 07:40:16

I think you're hounding this bloke off a forum which traditionally provides support. Many posters come on here with stories of events in their past which are just catching up with them or they are just feeling ready to tackle.

Whilst I think it's not unreasonable to ask him to answer the questions of whether he's using MN to get at his wife or excuse an affair if he says no then do you maintain your stance that he is trolling/lying?

Why so aggressive towards him? Why stalk him across threads?

Why not walk away? What are you hoping to achieve here with your posts? And why does it matter so much.

I dislike bullying and abusive behaviour. It doesn't matter whether its women or men. I also don't feel you can uphold an attitude to women and then behave the same towards a man.

Seekingthezone Wed 09-Jan-13 09:20:02

Thank you CabbageLeaves. Very nicely expressed. Hounded is the word.

I am not aware of my OH using
mumsnet.

When I see where you are you going with the question about a female contact to discuss these issues is I may answer. For the moment that is a leading question that I am not answering. Damned if I do. Damned if I don't.

AnyFucker Wed 09-Jan-13 13:41:54

A simple yes or no would suffice

I'm not keen on kissing either, I didn't mind when we first met but it does nothing for me now years later. I can't really breathe through my nose very well so I have to alternate between kissing and gasping for air, it ruins it because the whole time I'm thinking "running out of breath... getting uncomfortable... get off me!" and wondering if my breath is ok etc. It's not romantic or sexy, and it has nothing to do with my partner who is a perfectly good kisser.

I've had (not in the biblical sense) a lot of bad kissers though, from a guy who kissed so wetly I felt like I would drown. I was a brief kiss, less than ten seconds before I quite literally shoved him off me and shouted at him, it was that bad! but I'll never forget it as it makes my stomach churn just thinking about it. Big fat slack lips all over my face. ALL THE SALIVA IN HIS MOUTH was all in/on mine, slack tongue sloshing all over me <heave> Writing this did not help my morning sickness at all, ugh.

Then there was the skeletal guy with no lips who gnawed at my face and chin and left me really red, sore and with a hicky next to my lip. It hurt! And of course the 0-60 guys who only seem to have one mode: Full on passionate snogging with fully open gob and whole tongue exploring your back teeth all the time.

Could you unintentionally be a bit of a 0-60 man? It's a bit intrusive.

Seekingthezone Wed 09-Jan-13 18:47:16

James.. I had not thought of it like that. It is not the case though. I tried in different ways and gently. As part of the foreplay and also mid-act so to speak. Non worked and I backed off.

It struck me it could be one of two things.
1 she is not a kisser. Shame but it is the way it is.

2 she really is not into me as much as I was to her (puns aside) since women are apparently able to have intercourse in a more detached way than is the case with kissing [learnt from an earlier post]

fluffyraggies Wed 09-Jan-13 19:01:52

I have tried to discuss issues in the past around the physical side of the relationship but was told I was always going on about sex

This is sad.

seeking i would add a no.3 to your list at least re:the kissing. It may just be that your kissing style doesn't suit her. Which would be the easiest of the 3 to rectify if that is the case?

You say you feel the relationship is deeply troubled. What's your gut feeling about this? Is it the mismatched sex drives? Is her sex drive lower than yours do you think, or is any lack of intimacy a symptom of something wrong in the relationship?

I hope you don't feel hounded here.

Fairenuff Wed 09-Jan-13 19:14:06

I would add a 4) You are seeing another woman and she is aware that you have emotionally detached.

perfectstorm Wed 09-Jan-13 20:30:57

It really isn't a leading question, and actually, I have asked a woman on this site the same thing. Her answer was yes.

It's the wistful reflection on investing in the wrong genetic bank that raised my antennae. That's a classic line for someone who is thinking how much happier they would have been if they had married someone else. A specific someone else.

There's a book called Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass you should read, if any of this is accurate at all. The thing is, there is a process when someone has an affair, if they are basically a decent person who loves their wife, as opposed to a happily compartmentalised philanderer. Decent people need to justify something they feel at gut level to be wrong, so they frequently begin to examine all the things about the spouse they dislike/find annoying, detach emotionally, tell themselves the marriage is a disaster... and then feel they have permission to have an affair. It's a pattern that crops up on Mumsnet over and over and over again, and actually it's a pattern you see in women wondering if their husbands have begun an affair - that detachment from the relationship, and sudden hyper-critical attitude in what used to be a normal relationship.

TBH if you didn't have such a woman in your life, you'd be indignant in your denials. In focusing the indignation on being asked the question, you've sort of answered it.

Honestly I think you need to have a long, cool think about what you can do to salvage the marriage, because putting your emotional energy into another relationship while nominally continuing with the marriage is guaranteed to hurt your wife terribly, and destroy the kids. You're emotionally detaching and it sounds like you are doing it so you can blame her for the marital collapse, rather than an affair. If that's unfair then I apologise, but this is not a new situation here on MN. It happens all the time. There's a sort of script, even.

perfectstorm Wed 09-Jan-13 20:34:04

Incidentally if she's never used tongue when kissing it really could be down to tongue-tie. A badly tongue-tied adult may well have insufficient mobility to kiss that way - they can only use lips. If it were emotional/sexual in origin then it would be a new thing, not the way it's always been.

Fivemoreminutesmummy Wed 09-Jan-13 20:46:30

I don't really like kissing during sex and I fancy the pants off my DH. I just like to concentrate on the other feelings and the things in my head. I know my DH would like more kissing so we do it sometimes but other times not so much.
I know you've mentioned a lot of other issues but in relation to the OP, it could just be that she's not a fan of kissing with no deeper meaning.
Hope you get happier in your relationship, however things are resolved.

TwoFacedCows Wed 09-Jan-13 22:16:09

why does there have to be a reason why she doesn't want to kiss??

I love my DH and find him SO sexy, We have a very active, varied and unusual sex life. Yet we do not kiss during sex. We are very affectionate, always kissing and cuddling generally, but just not during sex!

Seekingthezone Thu 10-Jan-13 01:17:20

TwoFacedCows - lucky you and DH grin

I totally accept a relationships is not going to be wild forever with us hanging from the chandelier. But it seems reasonable to expect something meaningful - be that interest in sex or passion/warmth/kissing/cuddling outside the bedroom but there was none of that for years. The kissing was just one aspect of that poor physical side that stuck out and so I was prompted to ask others about it. Hence the post.

I now see sex was granted to keep me quiet. I suspect that was true for a long time. It always took place at the the same time at the weekend, within a small timing window. Then it was coldness during the week until the next weekend. Not allowed to touch at night in bed, never mind have sex and sleep blissfully afterwards.

Not even a quick cuddle or kiss in the morning either. This went on for years. I questioned it mulitple times away from the bedroom and was told she had to get up, she didn't feel well, she had to get up for work etc. etc. She does not/did not appear to miss the connection, the physical side of it.

I guess the frustration is all mine as I still want that level of connection with DW that a close physcial relationship brings. Even after all these years

I have to face up to the fact it is not being reciprocated and maybe that is the crux of it. The switching off by DW and the rejection that directly delivers to me. It would be definitely be time move on time were it pre DC but I am where I am and I need to see it though. Managing the imbalance is tricky.

The other issues of leaving the job etc. (mentioned in another thread) come on top of this core issue and compound the frustration. You put up with more s**t when things are good .

Greer123 Thu 10-Jan-13 10:46:46

Hi, Could it be that she is going through menopause? Sounds a bit that you might be at that sort of age? She quit work - was that due to stress? Stress interferes with the sex urge and mild depression will often start with withdrawal from relationships.

Sadly I feel something else more serious has gone on with your wife she isn't letting you know about. She seems very defensive. You could try and push her to go to Relate, but she may not open up. You may have to really shake things up to get her to take you seriously. Don't keep putting it off to deal with this problem, as the longer you leave it the more vulnerable your relationship will be.

Don't feel too bad about feeling negative about her. This is normal. Mother Nature is telling you to give up on her and spread your wild oats elsewhere. That genepool comment is exactly right! That's what Mother Nature wants you to think! But don't give up on her just yet. Too many people on these forums tell you to leave at the first sign of an issue. That's just running away and you won't learn from it what went wrong and probably repeat the same mistakes. It's bad for your children. They will see a failed relationship and won't know how a good relationship will work. In the teen years when they become more difficult to control they will challenge your authority over them because they see you as having let them down. Think how much better it will be if you manage to work through it, for all of you! Some of the best relationships are based on getting through the tough times. We only really know a person when we know their "dark side" as well as the side they prefer to show us, and we all have a dark side. Relationships aren't just about a marriage certificate and job done. They are a journey.

Greer.

Hmm. Well if bad breath and smoking are ruled out then it must be the wet kisses. I can't stand wet kissers. Even people who kiss me on the cheek and leave it wet makes me a bit queasy

Same here FNelson. I absolutely hate drool, and unfortunately in my experience a lot of men think "passionate" kissing is about sticking their tongues as far into my mouth as possible whilst poking about around my teeth and generally smearing me in spit. Euw! I find good kissers are rare, but I love kissing when I find one. If someone is a "bad" kisser I avoid it as much as possible. Even with a good kisser I find it difficult to kiss and fuck at the same time though.

EbbNFlow Thu 10-Jan-13 17:05:58

I dont enjoy kissing during sex. I like a little kiss beforehand and afterwards, but during sex I just dont find kissing that sexy...

saintmerryweather Thu 10-Jan-13 18:33:59

I avoided kissing me ex as much as possible. he was like a washing machine, shoving his fat slobbery tongue into my mouth and wiping it round. so he got closed mouth dry kisses. when he managed to rein himself in long enough for me to take the lead i loved it, slow sensuous kisses with a tiny bit of tongue. he would go wow then dive straight back in again with the slobber. so he never learned what i liked so he never got kisses. he was shockingly bad in bed and incredibly selfish as well

kittybiscuits Thu 10-Jan-13 18:48:01

I think, OP you are very comfortable seeking advice about your wife as 'the problem', but when posters try to get more of a sense of the context, you are being very selective in what you will/won't disclose. I am sure that this will play a part in your relationship issues. It doesn't matter how much or how little you choose to share, if you see yourself as not having a part in it, that can be a tremendous turn off in a partner.

Fairenuff Thu 10-Jan-13 19:57:02

It's clear that, for reasons unknown or undisclosed, there is a lack of emotional attachment between you. Staying together for the children is not generally considered best for the children. Children learn about relationships from their parents and this unhappy marriage is not a good example for them.

Seekingthezone Thu 10-Jan-13 23:21:04

Greer123 - good words thanks.

kittybiscuits - not exactly. I am more than happy to accept I am part of the problem. I want to know what to do to sort it out which is why I naievely entered into this website looking for answers. I have some answers and have leanrt a few things. Much of it has become shadowed in personalities though as people replay obviously well rehearsed views and prejudicies in some cases.

I have now come to see the kissing as not the real problem. After lsitening to other it could well be the way the DW is and I attached too much importantance to it. But given the ack of communication then I attached more weight to it.

So to now and how do you have a dialogue with some that with someone who appears to be closed and comes out with words to the effect that "...that is the way I am now...". That really throws down the gauntlet.

Fairenuff - fair point. I have being try to keep a lid on my frustrations for the sake of DC but it does become waring day in, day out for years on end. I still see the split as worse than the staying together. We would not know that for sure though until both had happened and we compared. A bit like the movie Sldiing Doors.

Darkesteyes Thu 10-Jan-13 23:52:35

I love open mouthed kissing during sex. It was part of lovemaking with my ex OM and i treasure that memory.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Jan-13 08:24:51

So to now and how do you have a dialogue with some that with someone who appears to be closed and comes out with words to the effect that "...that is the way I am now...". That really throws down the gauntlet

You don't have a dialogue with her. Because she doesn't want to talk to you. She doesn't want to kiss you, cuddle or even touch you. She certainly does not want to have sex with you.

She is not throwing down the gaunlet. It's not a challenge it's a way of telling you that she does not want sex with you.

I now see sex was granted to keep me quiet. I suspect that was true for a long time. It always took place at the the same time at the weekend, within a small timing window. Then it was coldness during the week until the next weekend. Not allowed to touch at night in bed, never mind have sex

There is nothing you can do to get a sexual or emotional relationship back unless she wants the same thing. And she clearly doesn't.

Your choice is to stay in the relationship as it is and you all suffer. Or separate and give both yourself and your wife the chance of finding happiness.

You cannot change her, you can only change your own behaviour.

Btw why do you want to have sex with someone who finds it so distasteful?

Numberlock Fri 11-Jan-13 08:31:28

All very well put, Fairenuff.

I would also add:

Or separate and give both yourself and your wife the chance of finding happiness ... and give the children the same chance of happiness too. The tension must be palpable in this household.

fluffyraggies Fri 11-Jan-13 08:59:30

faiefuff - brutal, but spot on really. Although i tend to think there may be a little more hope than you suggest.

Firstly, staying together for the children is a recipe for disaster OP. You've mentioned how you may have handled things diferently 'pre DC' a couple of times now. Children do pick up on the machinations of their parents relationships even if you're doing your level best to cover them up. You may think ''as long as their lives carry on on a good even keel and they are not seeing us rowing then everything will be fine. I/we are adults and clever enough to make sure they are none the wiser''. This is fantasy, sadly. So perhaps try to put 'staying for the children' out of your mind while you think about what to do for the best.

I still see the split as worse than the staying together. We would not know that for sure though until both had happened and we compared

- few people relish a split. But i think you know the time is right when
a) you can admit to yourself that the relationship is making you (both?) miserable long term, and the thoughts of jumping through hoops to put things right feels like too much effort. You only get one life. You're entitled to find a way to make that happen, moving forward responsibly and kindly as you can, for both of your sakes.

- and/or b) - there are kids involved who may being damaged by seeing an unhappy set of parents.

It might feel as if you've gone from a fairly simple question about kissing to discussing divorce here on your thread, but, as you say yourself, it's obvious the kissing issue is just a tiny tip of an ice-burg. To talk about the kissing and even the sex, tbh, at the moment, seems to me to be like shinning a torch into the Grand Canyon at night and be trying to work out the whole picture.

Your DW has effectively shut herself off from you, physically and mentally.

Re: the physical side of things, i'm finding it odd that you say this could well be the way the DW is. I feel you should know, y'know?!

fluffyraggies Fri 11-Jan-13 09:01:47

You're entitled *to be happy and to find a way to make that happen ....

Greer123 Fri 11-Jan-13 14:47:52

Hi "seekingthezone". If you leave your wife she will take the kids, probably take your home, you will have less money to spend. She might then make it difficult for you to see your kids. She may very likely take up with another man, who will then be the father of your kids. Maybe he won't be the step-dad you would have chosen for them? She might (without realising it) bring home guys that turn out to be a danger to herself and your kids. Maybe I'm getting old and cynical but I don't really see divorce as some kind of panacea - seen too many disastrous divorces and second relationships for that. Divorce will change the nature of your troubles but won't make them go away.

In any case, do the kids really see much trouble at home? I'm guessing this problem is mostly on a slow-burn which bursts into flame once in a while. We used to believe tension at home was a big issue for kids back in the 70s/80s but those theories have died a death 20 years ago at least. Psychologists now believe that all relationships have problems at some time and the best scenario for kids occurs when the parents successfully work through those problems.

CabbageLeaves Fri 11-Jan-13 16:39:40

A positive balanced view there Greer...

I'm divorced.
she will take the kids We didn't have a residency order leaving kids are free to decide.

probably take your home We split the house 50/50.

you will have less money to spend He doesn't pay maintenance but yes he does have less money cause he's no longer sponging off me...

She might then make it difficult for you to see your kids I have facilitated contact repeatedly for my DCs sake but his social life seems to hamper his access.

She may very likely take up with another man, who will then be the father of your kids I have 'taken up' with another man who is NOT the father of my kids.

Maybe he won't be the step-dad you would have chosen for them? It's not up to my ex to choose the step dad for his kids (how fucking controlling would a man have to be to decide that was is role???)

She might (without realising it) bring home guys that turn out to be a danger to herself and your kids The man I was married to was the danger! I suspect a patriarchal moron would feel differently and blame me however.....

Numberlock Fri 11-Jan-13 16:57:16

Greer - I'm a divorced mother, sadly my post would be deleted if I told you what I think of you. Glad to see misogyny thriving on MN.

Fairenuff Fri 11-Jan-13 17:02:36

Well I suppose you could do what Greer suggests. Stay where you are. Have occasional unsatisfactory sex with an unwilling partner. Live in an atmosphere of coldness without joy or passion or fun. If that's what you really want.

But don't expect your children to be grateful or thank you for it. Once they are adults they will live their own lives and make their own choices and they won't be thinking about you.

If you want to stay married, fine, that's your choice. But remember, it is you choice. There is no point staying in an unhappy relationship and moaning about it.

Alter Fri 11-Jan-13 17:07:39

If you are looking at the biochemistry of it, there is evidence that saliva contains testosterone therefore kissing increases the female sex drive so this hormone is one of the key ingredients to our reproductive success.

CabbageLeaves Fri 11-Jan-13 17:29:37

Oh and btw my kids told me that the split was a relief. Fully aware of the tension (we thought we had hidden it totally?) they were relieved when we parted. Yes divorce is brutal ...breaking up is hard blah blah blah. Marriage was more brutal for me.

I do know that some mums obstruct access, write out the father and take every penny they can. I also know the statistics show a huge number of fathers evade maintenance because of their bitterness at the money going to the mother to be spent on housing, feeding and nurturing their children. They also lack commitment to seeing their DC. Pretty poor behaviour exists in men and women.

AnyFucker Fri 11-Jan-13 18:23:04

Is anybody else thinking that Greer lives in an awful situation and invested in normalising it for others?

drizzlecake Fri 11-Jan-13 19:30:55

Is anybody else thinking that Greer lives in an awful situation and invested in normalising it for others

No, I just think he has male friends and he is hearing a probably v selective male view of divorce. Cabbageleaves gives the other side of this.

I find it odd that you and DW never discuss things Seeking . Whilst there is this unhappy atmosphere at home, with you feeling rejected, what is DW doing. Does she shut herself in the bedroom much of the day, is she happy and laughing at the tv with the DCs, is she busy helping with their homework and ferrying them here and there, is she out with friends most evenings??

It's really hard to get a convincing picture. You seem pretty exasperated and pissed off but what is the rest of the family doing whilst you mooch about feeling annoyed and unappreciated?

DH and I never kiss during sex, by the way, probably due to my wish to revel in the sensations in other parts of the body without the distraction of snogging.

Seekingthezone Fri 18-Jan-13 23:05:29

drizzlecake,

More than happy to focus on other regions of the body than lips but that is also off bounds. Foreplay was never on the cards. Wham bham, thankyou man and lets talk about shopping/jobs etc.

Agreed it is hard to get a two sided picture and all of these posts are my view but I am becoming drive to distraction and saught a wider circle of views.

I do want to find a resolution though and that is tough.

The DC do know there is arguiing. They hear it afterall, not that it is constant by any means.

Greer - not wholly my views but there are some shared concerns.

It is really dififcult to know when you are in the middle of something to see whether it would be better leaving or staying where you are and that is not just true of domestic life. It will only be in hindsight that the best position becomes apparent,

Numberlock Fri 18-Jan-13 23:38:29

More navel gazing OP.

madgered Sat 19-Jan-13 11:09:45

I love kissing and snogging. But sometimes during sex I'm just too carried away by deliciousness and I prefer other forms of stimulation. I won't actively avoid it but for me it isn't the be all and end all of the experience.
Perhaps your DW prefers other types of stimulation? perhaps she's worried about her dental hygiene or kissing after you've been down there?

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now