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Where does the love go?

(216 Posts)
debtherat Fri 04-Jan-13 04:13:12

20 years of marriage, two DS and a Xmas revelation! My OH behaved badly at Xmas and NY - shouting at them, snapping at me and constantly wanting to be away from us; also like an addict with his mobile.

Anyway told me that he has met and developed a relationship over the past few months with work colleague - just strong emotional and spiritual not physical but they are/were both sexually interested. She called a stop to it because he is married with kids (so he says) - she has left his workplace but he still has number .. not sure about level of contact.

Says he would have left if she had not ended it (for reasons above).

He wants to take stock and consider options and nurse his lost love (seems genuinely upset). Options might be trial separation (being a single man again), living together separately and maybe working on relationship with me. He is very keen to minimise impact on DS.

I haven't slept properly for 3 nights, feel (emotionally) sick and weepy.

Feel like I am waiting for a) a change of heart from OW, b) OH to decide how to move forward...feels like I have no option but to wait and see - uncertainty is making me sick.

Anyone been here? What did you do? What was the outcome?

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 04:55:07

You have another option and that is to tell him to pack his bags and go live elsewhere so that you have the time and space to deal with the magnitude of his betrayal.

He's acting out the tired old hackneyed script of every adulterous twunt known to woman, namely: find fault with his nearest and dearest to justify him taking up with an ow.

Don't believe a word he says. Chances are he's having a fullblown legover ongoing affair and, if she's married and is waiting for the right moment to leave her dh, he's wanting to have to his cake and eat it - as they all yawn do.

Tell him he can 'take stock' elsewhere and keep posting, honey.

Through no fault of your own, you have embarked on a roller coaster--steep learning curve and the wise counsel of women who've --ridden to the top nd dumped on their twunts from a great height already marked the trail will be here to steer you through the rocky days ahead

By the time you get through this you WILL be asking yourself what wsa the point of him and you'll look at your 2 ds and know that, whatever the cost to yourself, it was worth it.

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 05:01:50

Strike through fail! Please remove --- from 'roller coaster'.

Btw, while on the subject of bad news, if you've unwittingly been engaging in sexual relations with him, you're best advised to get tested for stis as your nearest GUM clinic.

After all, you've only got his word that he hasn't had sex with the ow and we may as well establish from the off whether you're going to put your trust in a man who's betrayed yours, or those who've been where you are now and come out into the light the other side.

4aminsomniac Fri 04-Jan-13 05:46:11

I agree, the options he has laid out aren't the only ones!

I know you both want to look out for D, but give yourself even a short 'space' asking him to go for a while. He may try and make you feel responsible for breaking up the family, but remember that he acted badly, you are just reacting.

Asking him to leave for a while shows him that he is not in control, this is a partnership. It will show him clearly what he may lose because of what he has done, and may make it more likely that he will want to try and mend the relationship... if YOU decide that that is what you want!

AppearingDignified Fri 04-Jan-13 05:58:53

Bastard. Please follow the MN advice of getting him out. I've seen 2 girlfriends this year try to fix the marriage through love and support and they are shells of their former self. It is not a path for dignity.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 04-Jan-13 09:51:30

"feels like I have no option but to wait and see "

He is behaving extraordinarily cruelly and no way should you have to demean yourself to waiting for him to give you the thumbs up or thumbs down. You should be no-one's fall-back, no-one's second choice.

I know what you're thinking. If you chuck him out he will simply run to her arms and be lost to you forever. But better to be in control than to be a bit-player in your own life, waiting for others to get their head out of their arse long enough to decide your fate.


debtherat Fri 04-Jan-13 10:08:03

Don't want the relationship to end. I feel more upset by the fact - if he's not lying - that they had a spiritual and emotional connection - his words. He has also just posted on facebook - summary of the 2012 - that one of the highlights was gaining an amazing, inspirational new friend. I am hoping someone asks him who this is. .. hopefully not my family members who are on facebook.

Just feels that he is pulling all the strings. We both acknowledged that kids and work come first - not much time left over .. but he is saying that he is not sure he wants a relationship with me anymore beyond friends, might like a trial separation but says he will always be there for me. Just wonder if he is trying to let me down gently

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 04-Jan-13 10:15:35

If he's trying to let you down gently he's making an utter balls of it. Yes, he's pulling all the strings... including the one he's currently got you dangling from and twisting slowly in the wind.

You may not want the relationship to end but he's saying it's over. He wants you to say 'it's over' so he can pretend he's the good guy. And I hope you laugh in his face when he says he wants to be your friend. 'Friends' do not shit on each other from a great height and then pretend they are doing you a favour.

Please don't allow him to torture you a minute longer. The word you're struggling to say is 'GO'.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 04-Jan-13 10:20:51

Your only chance of saving the marriage is to stop being clingy. You need to pull back and tell him YOU want space to consider if you can stay with him after this massive betrayal so he has to go and stay with a friend/relative for a while.

I know this will go against your feelings but until he realises what he stands to lose, he will not fight for you.

LOSS is the only thing that motivates cheaters.

I would also get this book:

crazygracieuk Fri 04-Jan-13 10:29:49

It will be easier for both of you to think things through while you live separately.

I threw h out on 30 December as he had been having an affair and its amazing how much I've emotionally gone through in just 6 days. She has gone from "Soulmate" to "Annoying" in that short time. I suspect it's normal boring domestic stuff like washing being the problem. Lol

He's been honest with you and said that he would go off with ow if she was available. If you stay with him you'll be waiting for the day he left. You'd be wondering if he was thinking about her when with you and it will destroy your soul.

If you and your h are meant to be (and I think not) then your best bet is to separate and wait for him to think about what he wants.

dequoisagitil Fri 04-Jan-13 10:37:11

Please take control.

While you let him dither and moon over his 'love' for the OW, he devalues you and your relationship in his head. If you make yourself a doormat, he will wipe his feet on you. He needs to feel the consequences of his choices. Be strong and tell him to leave.

Don't sleep with him, don't let him blither to you about his deep and abiding lurve for some other woman - it will not make him choose you, it will ruin your self-esteem and he will think he can do anything and you'll still be his safety net.

If he sees the cold hard reality of having to do for himself, of not having the home comforts, of everyone thinking what an unfaithful twat he is - he'll quickly see what he's giving up. Kicking him out won't be making him choose her - if he's going to do that, he will anyway.

Slippersox Fri 04-Jan-13 11:11:06

Agree with all above you need to take control and call the shots.I realise how terrifying that will seem after a long marriage even though he has betrayed and hurt you hugely there's a fear of 'losing' him.But he is the one who needs to face the stark reality of what he stands to lose.FWIW I rebuilt my marriage after the pain of finding out DH had kept his friendship with an OW from work a secret for months, it was brought to my attention by her DH finding sexually explicit messages between them.
However, and this is critical IMO ,as soon as it was discovered the affair bubble burst dramatically and DH ceased all contact immediately with OW and focused ALL his efforts on us and our marriage.
Had he been posting comments on Facebook about his amazing spiritual friend his bags would have most certainly been on the drive.As it was I made a big mistake initially not asking him to move out for a few days to allow me to process the shock, anger and hurt I felt.You need some space, and he needs to wake up to the enormity of his cruel behaviour.
We did work things through ,and hard as it was I'm very glad we did.But your DH has gone much further with the process of detachment from you and your marriage, as typified by his treatment of you and your DSs over Xmas.I don't subscribe to the total kick the bastard out forever reaction,but agree with Mad about Hot Choc.The Shirley Glass book gives valuable insights into how boundaries of friendship get blurred and the damage done as a result.
Ultimately only time and how your DH behaves from now on will tell you if you feel your marriage is salvageable and worth the huge effort it takes to rebuild things.All the best and get some RL support from a close ,trusted friend would be my advice also.

debtherat Fri 04-Jan-13 14:23:20

but what an adjustment to make. .. so many ways in we rely on each other for practical stuff and some many life events together.

And why is saying nice things to me too - surely it can't be just because he feels sorry for me? must be genuine.

just can't contemplate him leaving kids and gradually withdrawing from them which must be inevitable (makes me feel physically angry towards him) - they are boys and need their dad.

We are not in the throes of romantic love and I am approaching menopause (I also think he might be having a mid life crisis)- I thought we were just at the life stage of busy working couple with lots going on and would re-discover our relationship more as kids got older. BTW he is really into a particular sport which takes us a lot of his leisure time - I thought letting him have this time (which impacts on other areas of our life) was my way of showing him I valued him but I admit I do get exasperated sometimes.

Is it just sex - he wants more, something new - younger firmer body?

He makes the new relationship sound like the one - as if ours has been nothing

debtherat Fri 04-Jan-13 14:28:54

He said he has been unhappy for a while - not getting enough emotion or sex from me. I also reinforced this when he first told me ( and I was upset and angry) that I would persecute him/his new partner if he did not maintain his emotional and time investment in our children... and that for me they were the greatest loves of my life.

Thanks for book recommendation - have downloaded and will probably be up most of the night reading.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 04-Jan-13 14:29:56

"And why is saying nice things to me too - surely it can't be just because he feels sorry for me? must be genuine."

Not at all. It's because he wants you to like him. It's astonishing how often nasty men like your husband, having crapped on their partners from a great height, shattering their dreams, crushing their self-esteem.... persist with the 'don't be angry with me', 'I want to be friends' nicey-nicey routine. Sickening.

"they are boys and need their dad."

And he should have thought of that before he smashed your family apart. I'm glad you're angry about how he's treating them but you have to start being angry about how he's treating you.

"mid life crisis"

Resist making excuses for him.

" it just sex - he wants more, something new - younger firmer body?"

Please don't torture yourself wondering why he's done this and making comparisons where you come off worse. He is acting out of purely selfish motives that you will probably never understand, and has no regard for you whatsoever.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 04-Jan-13 14:32:25

"He said he has been unhappy for a while - not getting enough emotion or sex from me."

Has he been reading 'Cheating Husbands for Dummies'? This is a really common excuse for cheats. Means the blame is not theirs, it's yours. Other variations are that 'it was a mistake to get married in the first place'...'I'm not sure I've ever really loved you'.

It's why you have to get him out of your house and quickly. The longer he sticks around poisoning your mind with all of this tripe, the worse you are going to feel.

Apocalypto Fri 04-Jan-13 14:36:42

If he's not sure whether he's staying or going then he's going, surely.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 04-Jan-13 16:22:32

He probably had the affair because of the ego boosting attentions from OW - this can be very addictive if you are vulnerable (e.g have crap boundaries, low self esteem or other issues).

Its up to him to look into himself to find out what what made him give himself permission to choose cheating as a way of resolving his issues.

There is nothing you can do except to take control of the situation by getting him to go.

Slippersox Fri 04-Jan-13 16:45:36

Agree with Mad about again.Hard as it is you need to be strong and take the lead.Dont allow him to stay and mess with your head.Whatever mid-life issues he has he could have discussed them with you but he chose to look outside your marriage for an ego boost and short term fix.I suspect it was an opportunistic affair brought about by the close proximity and convenience of working alongside this OW, who no doubt flirted with and flattered him, and vice versa.
Please don't allow him to make you feel responsible.Only so sorry you are going through this.

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 04:33:43

Managed to sleep for 4 hours tonight - a massive relief but waking up just hits you like a wall - can't lose this person, mainly good for over 25 years. ... but he thinks it is the end of us even though the OW is not (he says) prepared to take things further and they are not now in working contact with each other.....he won't talk about her to me (hurts too much that she's gone and it would be unfaithful to her)..... but he also says he sees his future trying out new relationships to find the right one for him (ouch)... think he's looking to play the field, find this level of new love emotional excitement joy again because with OW has seen it is possible and wants it again while he still has a chance/youth on his side. He wants to do right by our 2 DS, have more family time but not look at us - a lost cause? I think he feels bad about kids and me (although deep affection for me). If I let him go (although not for me to choose) his new life/loves will quickly help him forget and in spite of best intentions kids will suffer big time (and further on into their lives) and I don't see anything for me in this scenario (practical and financial struggles and emotional isolation of being a single parent)... no wonder I feel sick.

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 04:36:20

And talking about impact on kids, he said they would get over it - lack of emotional intellience or what? or putting his own needs/wants first?

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 04:43:13

I still think there is a lot unsaid in all of this about our sex life - lack of/quality of - we have had a good sex life but less of it since kids and very little recently - I see it a part of our life stage - we can't have sex anytime, any place and neither initiates but if he does, I am normally up for it and always enjoy it.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 05-Jan-13 08:27:58

He is putting himself first - do you need a selfish entitled man like him in your life? He is addicted to the buzz and excitement of having an OW.

He wants to have his cake and eat it.

Kick him out.

He needs to feel hard cold reality hitting him hard - loss of his home comforts, loss of respect from friends and family, having to deal with the realities of being a Macdonald Dad (all child access to take place outside YOUR home), paying CSA and maintenance and not having anyone to launder, clean, cook, iron and shop for him.

The more you hang onto him, the more selfish he will become - there won't be an incentive for him to change.

AloeSailor Sat 05-Jan-13 08:36:41

What a shithead

CogitoErgoSometimes Sat 05-Jan-13 08:51:51

" think he's looking to play the field, find this level of new love emotional excitement joy again because with OW has seen it is possible and wants it again while he still has a chance/youth on his side."

You've got it in one. So are you going to let him do it on your time and insult you? Or are you finally going to show him the door?

xkittyx Sat 05-Jan-13 08:59:41

Putting up on Facebook about an "amazing, inspirational new friend" was beyond cruel.

Redflagcatcher Sat 05-Jan-13 09:27:48

Really feel for you. I remember this time ohhh so well. It is the worst time. Take control, let yourself be empowered.

Being a single mum has been a much better and healthier experience for me than living with my cheating xh who didn't think of his kids or me while seeing his ow. He doesn't deserve you or your lovely ds's.

My ds's are just fine without their dad in the same house, it's calm and happy here with no underlying resentment and destroyed trust that would have persisted if I had agreed to his idea of working on it.

Let him skulk off into the ohhh so wonderful world of singledom and dating looking for 'excitement' and 'connection' and telling every potential gf he left his family after an affair.

He's mistaking love for the infatuation stage not long term commitment and day to day support and hard work.

He'll work it out, look back and grieve for the loss of his lovely family while you (single mum or not) will be recovering and settled and happy. That is the only way he will see sense sadly.

Redflagcatcher Sat 05-Jan-13 09:30:52

Btw me xh is 'popping' round yet again this morning to 'drop stuff off'......I still see the look in his eyes when he sees us in our lovely home and so happy.

Then he will go and see his gf and listen to her screaming and shouting at her numerous dc's and listen to her troubles with her xh.....oh what a joy for him.......reality hits hard.

Charbon Sat 05-Jan-13 13:26:09

Late to this thread but deb please consider dealing with this entirely differently.

If you want your marriage back despite his affair, there really is only one course of action that has ever been known to work.

You must ask him to leave and tell him that you are worth more than ambivalence.

The only motivation that ever works in these situations is loss.

You can see how it's working a treat on your husband with the loss of the OW. It has just made him want her more.

It does terrible things to someone's dignity and psychological health if she gives all the power and choice in a relationship to someone who's hurt her and it's especially so if she allows herself to be second choice to another woman.

Please fake it to make it. You might think you want this man back but you need to give yourself time and space to think about that.

You might find that you do not, in the end and that you deserve more than this shoddy treatment, but if you do want him back he will only want to if he's lost you.

Please be a bit circumspect about what he's saying about your marriage and your sex life. The reality is that he checked out of it as soon as he met this other person and started a friendship with her. Everything since that point has been false in terms of your relationship.

If you want to assess your relationship more realistically, look at how it was before he met her. And don't forget to recall whether he was making you feel loved, cherished and desired intensely then. I'm sure he hasn't ever since he met this woman, but that is also a mirage....

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 14:00:03

Really grateful for your comments/support/listening. Still bit nauseous/shaky but self-preservation kicking in and starting to function bit better - which I need. Just rubbing along with DH at moment. Back to work Monday - hope no-one asks about my Xmas/NY - how unlikely is that! Just know this will take up so much mental and emotional energy over the next few weeks/months.

Charbon Sat 05-Jan-13 14:03:51

What's stopping you asking him to leave deb?

I really think he should. Your life will be far worse if you let an ambivalent man think he's got a choice.

dequoisagitil Sat 05-Jan-13 14:09:21

So he wants to live like this (until he finds that exciting someone else to bugger off with), while you try to make family life perfect and give great sex.

I can see why he'd want that.

You really need to see this 'bargain' for what it is. He has told you it's over, but you're just trying to hang on. Problem is, you can't make someone stay. You don't want the 25 year marriage to be over, but you no longer have it - he has already checked out, he just hasn't gone.

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 14:16:03

Just very worried about practical things, impact on children and will miss him -be lonely without him (the nice him which he has been more than not).

It has made me realise how dependent I am on him (as he was on me I thought) - I really want him to be happy - not me being a doormat - 25 years of being with/loving someone but if he can't be that with me... then .. we've only got one life. And the oh so special OW, he was already talking about the next one/being free to play the field like she isn't so special (because she doesn't want to break up an unhappy home) but he needs a new love emotional or sexual(?) connection... which is not be definition possible with me.

He has a new job (from May 12) start - which is going well - wonder if this has changed his outlook as well as obviously meeting lots of new people. He has always got on well with women.

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 14:28:33

Oh God. Paranoia - just logged onto my msn page (our our shared home pc)and got message from Eharmony pop-up - 3 messages and also 16 matches - I'm sure I haven't seen this before - does this mean he has been on their website?, searching, & allowed cookies. I can't see what's on there (I'm not a member) - tempted to join and take a look - see if I can find him or should I just ask and check out his honesty levels??

dequoisagitil Sat 05-Jan-13 14:33:43

Doesn't sound like paranoia in you, sounds like utter disrespect on his part. sad

You won't get much lonelier without him than you currently are with him, considering he has checked out on you. You can rebuild you without him, and the dc would adapt.

TranceDaemon Sat 05-Jan-13 14:41:16

Please get some self respect, what a total bastard. How could you even look at him again never mind want him back. Scumbag.

AppearingDignified Sat 05-Jan-13 14:46:10

Ask him to leave.

HappyNewSkyebluesapphire Sat 05-Jan-13 14:51:40

That is not paranoia, he has joined a dating website. This shows that he has definitely checked out from you emotionally and is looking for someone/something else.

You have had fantastic advice here already from the usual great posters, Izzy Madabout Charbon . Their advice is spot on and you need to seriously listen to it.

I know you don't want to break up your family, but your H has already done that. He wont talk about OW as it would be unfaithful to her??!! What an arse!

If it's not her, it will be somebody else. Do you want to live the rest of your life now, with a man who is actively looking for somebody else?

My XH formed an emotional attachment to OW in Jan/Feb. Then walked out on me at the end of Feb saying that he no longer loved me. I divorced him in November.

It's not been easy for me and DD 4yo, but we are getting there. and yes, I do still sit and cry for the loss of my love and for the life I thought I was going to have, but at the same time, my house is a lot less stressful, I am closer to DD and I am surviving.

If you don't ask your H to leave on your terms, he will go anyway and you will feel even worse when he does. Or he will stay and be repeatedly unfaithful to you.

The eharmony thing should be the final straw for you. Pack his bags and ask him to leave while YOU think about what YOU want. It's not all about what he wants...

HappyNewSkyebluesapphire Sat 05-Jan-13 14:52:25

sorry missed cogito in the name check

NormaStanleyFletcher Sat 05-Jan-13 14:58:40

I agree with all the others.

You must make him leave.

Have you told anyone irl? If not you should. Can you tell your parents, his parents? You need some rl support.

Just keep remembering that.this is NOT your fault, it is not about any thing that you did or did not do.

It is about him and his weakness, and HIS bad choices.

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Sat 05-Jan-13 14:59:38

He is a bastard.

It definitely sounds as though he has been on the dating site.

I cannot believe that he has put comments on FB about her, that is beyond cruel.

He is not the man you married. Kick his sorry arse out.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 05-Jan-13 15:49:17

deb - you are worth much more than this.

Really do hope you are not going to allow him to remain in your home, going on dating websites and shagging around while you do his laundry, cooking and shopping.

This will only lead to him losing ALL respect for you and his shitty behaviour will get worse.

Think of the impact on the DC - they will pick up on the crap atmosphere. Do you want them to model future relationships on your marriage?

minouminou Sat 05-Jan-13 15:50:51

Get him out, my love.
Let's see how his quest for thrills goes, eh?

Charbon Sat 05-Jan-13 15:57:56

And I'm sure your marriage changed for the worse ....from about May 2012, didn't it?

You can't make someone love and respect you, but with selfish people who put their needs before others every time (including their children's) you can engender further disrespect by your own actions.

Who do you think he's got more respect for right now?

The woman who allegedly said she wasn't prepared to be an OW and withdrew? (but in reality could be playing a good game)

Or the woman who despite being treated cruelly and with complete disrespect is staying around to take more of that?

Which of the two women would you respect more, come to that?

CogitoErgoSometimes Sat 05-Jan-13 15:59:04

"see if I can find him or should I just ask and check out his honesty levels??"

I'm afraid he's already being brutally honest. He's already said that he'll be playing around but stomaching you until something better comes along. Why would knowing that he'd joined a dating site be a surprise to you?

I understand that you're in shock and casting around desperately knowing that what you want - a faithful husband and a happy marriage - is not possible any more but not knowing what to do for the best. I really do understand why you feel like a deer in the headlights, unable to move. But you need to move something and fairly quickly or what's left of your self-esteem will be a bloody pulp on the tarmac.

Viviennemary Sat 05-Jan-13 16:09:53

I was feeling a very tiny bit of see how things work out. But this can't talk about the woman because it would be a betrayal of her. confused What a total cheek he has. I agree take the intiative and say you want a temporary separation at least. If he's hurting so much he should be left to nurse his hurt on his own. How selfish!

mcmooncup Sat 05-Jan-13 16:32:04

OP, PLEASE ask him to leave.

Think of all the things you are frightened of:
The children? It is surely worse them hearing about their dad shagging around whilst still living with their mother

Your loneliness? It's not like you are going to be snuggled up watching a DVD of an evening. More likely he'll be cruising the net for a hook up.

When people are saying on here that you are worth more than that, please listen, you are telling your children that you are worthless by keeping him there. You must show them that you cannot go around treating people like horse shit and there be no consequences.

debtherat Sat 05-Jan-13 16:52:32

He's just gone out for long walk and then pub. Originally planned some family time but he changed his mind.

mcmooncup Sat 05-Jan-13 16:55:12

Perfect opportunity to pack his bags and leave them on the doorstep

He's probably gone out for some peace so he can message some women back from the dating site.

Pack. The. Bags.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sat 05-Jan-13 17:00:58

Agreed. Pack bags, bolt door and tell him to get lost while you've got the chance. Make a stand.

lilacbaubles Sat 05-Jan-13 17:01:12

Absolutely agree with mcmooncup...fantastic opportunity to have his stuff ready by the time he gets back full of fresh hope from all the new dates he has lined up.

Charbon Sat 05-Jan-13 17:32:12

You might not see it now Deb but what happened tonight is just the tip of the iceberg. If you let him stay, there will be more disappointments for the children especially, than if he moved out.

Absolutely the best way of dealing with this is to separate and insist he has the children for long periods, doing everything a parent is expected to do while they have children in their care. Your husband has got the best of all worlds at the moment. He's told you you're sacked from your marriage as a romantic partner, but he still expects you to do all the shitwork and look after his kids while he dates other women. You do see this, don't you?

Twattergy Sat 05-Jan-13 21:21:29

He's taking advantage of you. either pack his bags or when he gets back ask him how soon he can leave. When I asked this of my now xdp he surprised me by saying'tomorrow'. It was 100%better once he'd gone. I wish I'd asked him three months earlier when I first learnt of his affair.

greeneyed Sat 05-Jan-13 23:29:01

Deb please ask him leave what have you got to lose, he is gone already - on the flip side once gone he may feel he has lost a hell of a lot. I have a male friend who has been through MLC this year - reverted to a teenager - was kicked out by wife and after 4 weeks living in a flat (crying evry night with lonliness) his madness lifted and he begged to go home and realised he'd been an absolute fool, if she hadn't kicked him out he might have just carried on

debtherat Sun 06-Jan-13 03:50:05

Asked him about eharmony and he said I was being stupid and denied it Doesn't normally risk drink driving - he even turned quite nasty told me to F/O - full of contempt.

Back from pub - he went away from here halfway to work (for a drink & drive!) to a place on the A1.. v. good transport connections. Plenty of pubs in town. Doesn't normally risk drink driving.

Neighbour and friend came round and he became his normal kind self - getting drinks, asking about her holiday. Felt lovely to be back to normal but as soon as she was gone - anxiety/sadness hit me.. not sure about him.

AppearingDignified Sun 06-Jan-13 04:05:20

Why are you not throwing him out?

debtherat Sun 06-Jan-13 05:21:30

So started to have a rummage on his email/computer history. Found photo (on flickr) of inspirational new friend plus lovely pressie for her from National Gallery ordered via new email account google chrome and some tickets to . Also in account basic membership to "no strings attached - discreet dating shagging site (with nice local matches) - lots of tits and bits on display.. but this during his so special relationship? Do you think that she just made him extra horny??

TanteRose Sun 06-Jan-13 06:01:55

Please please stop rummaging - it is not doing you any good.

Just make him leave - he really is a horrible man sad

debtherat Sun 06-Jan-13 07:10:41

How does the no strings sex thing sit with his spiriutal and emotional inspirational friend - bet she wouldn't have been impressed - wonder if their relationship was a fantasy - his fantasy? I've seen nothing from her in all of this.

He has bought two tickets to a concert on 17th Jan in London - some group I have not heard of but he has developed a major interest in. I found this on his google/IPhone. Certainly not for me - maybe their romantic reunion?

izzyizin Sun 06-Jan-13 07:44:11

I'm guessing her alleged Sydney Carton act 'tis a far better thing I do ... because you've got a dw & dc' is because she's not that into him. Having changed jobs upped sticks, she doesn't wnat him following coming onto her and figures this is a good way of getting him off her back.

Hostelries up and down the country have a motley collection of sad sacks middleaged men hunched over their pints, lamenting the unnaccountabe lack of short sighted sex-crazed women willing to drop their knickers for a ageing roue priapic male in his prime before they decamp to their lonely bedsits.

Recognisable by their combovers ability to take mutton dressed as lamb to an art form, these men once had it all but gave it all away in the expectation that the green grass of pastures new would provide opportunity for them to stave off the advancing years relive their youth.

The sooner you kick your deluded twat of a h out to join them the better, deb. There'll be nothing like a continual diet of hamburger to make him realise he had steak at home - but by the time the penny drops for him, you may have found yourself a guy who looks as good as he cooks hung your apron for good.

heyelp Sun 06-Jan-13 07:52:45

Oh deb - I have been reading through this for the last few days but now feel I have to post now. You MUST throw him out. This is just horrendous. what is stopping you throwing him out. Even if you desperately want him you must throw him out because you will never have him if you keep putting up with this behaviour. What on earth is stopping you. He is treating you absolutely appallingly.

greeneyed Sun 06-Jan-13 08:11:27

Izzy - love that post! Take Izzy's advice!

ReeBee Sun 06-Jan-13 08:19:11

Deb, I agree with all the others. I've been following your story with mounting concern, sadness and anger. Your H is behaving with no care, compassion or respect for you or the boys and to salvage yourself, your emotions and your family (your DSs) as best you can you have to disengage and ask him to leave today.

I know it probably feels overwhelming but the reality won't be worse than the anticipation.

Please be brave. We are all here to support you.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 06-Jan-13 08:31:01

"How does the no strings sex thing sit with his spiriutal and emotional inspirational friend "

Even someone looking for no-strings sex isn't immune from thinking they've found 'the real thing' in the process and pestering them with gifts. "There's no fool like an old fool". If she doesn't reciprocate, he just keeps going. I'm sorry but it all looks to me as though he is well and truly out there looking for your replacement.

The anger about being discovered, the way he can keep it together for a friend but turn on you... that just reeks of someone caught with their pants down but not wanting to give up their cushy lifestyle.

Lifeissweet Sun 06-Jan-13 08:37:46

I know you are in the middle if this and can't see the wood for the trees, OP, but you seem to think you're still in a marriage and the fact that you are snooping around and confronting him about his betrayals is demonstrating this. You are not in a marriage anymore and he has told you he's looking for someone else. Listen to him. It's over.

The others are right. He needs to see you give a show of strength. The thing that will most give him a short sharp shock right now is your coldness and disdain. Throw him out and distance yourself completely. Until he loses you completely and totally, he can't realise what he's thrown away and regret it.

Be strong, be cold (on the outside) be calm (on the outside) tell him you can't bear to look at him. That he's not the man you thought he was and you need him to leave now. Please, please, please. It's really the only way this can end well.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 06-Jan-13 09:07:21

Not sure if OP is listening to us - she probably has head stuck in sand.

OP - you know where we are when you are ready to take control.

Alittlestranger Sun 06-Jan-13 09:42:15

OP he's told you he's a duck. Why are you now trying to record him quacking and searching around for duck droppings?

I think you're still in the denial phase, this is entirely normal but you need to try and take some control. Even if you still think you have a marriage to save, ask him to leave.

Look, most people know betraying vows and abandoning a family makes them a shit. Yet they are not amoral psychopaths. This means people will rarely say as bluntly as they need to considering what the actual circumstances are. This makes it very easy for the person being left to cling on to crumbs: "I'm confused," "I still feel a lot of affection for you." People do not tell you what your OH has told you without it being an exit line.

And prepare yourself that you may never now the truth about the OW. Is she younger? She might be mortified that the work mate she had good banter with seems to think he has a chance with her. Maybe she has pushed him to leave and will be waiting. Maybe they're still together and he's just lying. Who knows, but you cannot rely on him anymore to tell the truth.

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Sun 06-Jan-13 10:22:52

OP are you listening to us? Please listen, he is making a fool of you. Kick him out before he walks out on you.

HappyNewSkyebluesapphire Sun 06-Jan-13 13:21:49

Deb - I know how hard it is for you to hear what everybody is saying, I have been there too.... But everybody posting has been through this, they have been where you are now and they want to help you.

Your H is clearly signing up with dating and shagging sites. If he is meeting people from there, then he is putting your health at risk.

If he is buying presents and tickets to events, then he is seeing somebody. OW walked away? Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. Maybe he is now trying to impress her and win her back again.

It must be so hard to consider divorce after 20 years together. I was with my XH for ten years. But, once the shock wore off, I knew that I had to divorce him, as he had betrayed me and I did not want to be anybody's second choice if he decided to come running back again.

You will destroy yourself, your self esteem, your confidence and everything about you, if you put up with your H's behaviour. You are sitting around waiting for him to choose you....

Please go and get some legal advice this week, do something practical and positive, to help you decide what steps to take next. If you want to gather information, then do so. i did the same and printed out a mountain of mobile phone bills that proved contact with OW. But all you are doing is hurting yourself each time you find something new. I think that you have found enough now, that proves that he is cheating on you in various ways.

Hold your head up high, retain your dignity and ask him to leave while YOU decide what you want. Until you do that, he will keep on messing you around until you are at rock bottom. Don't let him do that to you.

Please keep posting as we are all here for you

izzyizin Sun 06-Jan-13 14:33:12

Er... it's not strictly speaking true that everybody posting has been through what deb's going through, Skye.

I did once have a dalliance with a guy who was congenitally incapable of fidelity, but I didn't have dc with him or have property/finances in common with him.

Nevertheless, I found it interesting to experience the range of base emotions his activities engendered in me and it provided a useful exercise in how to inwardly feel extreme rage and plot fantasise about revenge while outwardly appearing unruffled.

As it is, I subscribe to the belief that we are more evolved than we may think ourselves to be and that when a relationship fails to enhance our liife it can, and should, be ended in a seemly manner.

HappyNewSkyebluesapphire Sun 06-Jan-13 14:51:24

sorry, that was a generalisation, just trying to say that we are only saying these things because we know what we are talking about because we have been through it.

it was not meant to be a literal statement of fact

izzyizin Sun 06-Jan-13 15:43:07

I know that, Skye, but I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression I'm speaking from personal experience of having, or having had, an adulterous h or a philandering dp who is also the father of my dc, and all that entails iyswim - not, I hasten to add, for any reason other than not wishing to give the appearance of being something I'm not.

<a lot of 'nots' in that sentence but it makes sense to me - just>

Hesterton Sun 06-Jan-13 16:09:15

The unfolding of yet more stark, raw and painful new truths when you are being betrayed is like hard, cruel kicks and punches delivered to your body when you are lying on the ground, spent and surrendered.

Dear Lady, you have to pack his stuff and tell him 'Enough. Now go.'

izzyizin Sun 06-Jan-13 16:35:47

Well said, Hesterton.

The longer you delay, deb, the longer he's got to rub your nose in it - and the more he'll come to believe his own hype.

Summon all the self-respect and self-worth you can muster. Tell him to live elsewhere because he's no longer the man you married and you don't like what he's become.

Victoria3012 Sun 06-Jan-13 16:47:44

Deb, please please please make him leave. I was married to my partner for 22 years, he did this to me and my heart was broken, i was devastated beyond belief. Eventually he left me and came back after 8 weeks (once i was getting my life back on track, well i wasnt but it appeared so to him). The 5 months that followed were the worst of my life, he reduced me to nothing, i tried so hard to make him happy and do everything right and believe me nothing i did was right. He destroyed my confidence, happiness, my childrens happiness, i let him reduce me to the shadow of the person i once was. I felt a failure as a women, wife, mother and as a person. I just about managed to hang on to my last shred of self respect and told him it was over and to leave.

For your own sanity and that of your children make him leave and keep all contact to a minimum, he is messing with your head and he knows what he is doing, he is loving the power he has and he is exploiting you emotionally.

I wish i had munsnet when this happened to me because the advice you are getting is the best advice for this situation.

dequoisagitil Sun 06-Jan-13 18:08:12

Hugs to Victoria. sad

Charbon Sun 06-Jan-13 20:36:53

I understand why you're digging around for more facts deb. It's very normal behaviour when people are still in shock after finding out that their life has not been quite what it seemed.

It's odd that he's casting his net wide while still apparently hung up on this other woman, with whom the relationship sounds very much alive and kicking and contrary to what he has said, incidentally. Maybe he's told her that he has ended your marriage and it's back on again with her now, hence the tickets? I also presume that's who he was with last night?

What sometimes happens with affairs is that a person gets addicted to the whole enterprise of having new relationships. If she at some point backed off, then the dating sites might have been his way of keeping that buzz and thrill going.

Either way, it further reinforces that he needs to be doing this away from your home and your relationship, so please grab your courage and your dignity and put an end to this.

Abitwobblynow Sun 06-Jan-13 21:48:03

Deb from one who was as paralysed and in shock as you are and who made all the mistakes you made and 5 years later is still hurting over the disrespect, please do what I should have done and throw him OUT.

Protect yourself from his crazy. This isn't about you. It isn't about your marriage. It is about him running away from himself. PLEASE don't damage yourself by witnessing this. When he comes to his senses and says 'it didn't mean anything' you won't forget.

Get away from his devaluing crazy. The whole dating thing tells you it isn't OW either. Step away from his madness. Make him feel some losses.

I know you won't listen I didn't but I hope you do.

Abitwobblynow Sun 06-Jan-13 22:00:13

Deb if you witness this you won't forget I am warning you.

Save yourself. Surround yourself by people who are normal. My H tries to talk to me about his depression and his giving up on himself? All that I have burned in my heart is his passion for OW the ultimate AD and his contempt for me. He has forgotten all that, I will never forget. Kick him out and do not have anything to do with him, please listen.

The other thing: we are sent things to learn. Now is the time for you to learn that you ARE more than a wife, and you CAN live on your own, and you WILL NOT die. All things learned the hard way - embrace this lesson. The more you cling, the more you freeze in disbelief, the more you will be hurt.

Do what he doesn't expect: throw him out. He needs saving too from his distorted thinking not just you. You can't miss what you take for granted.

Deb: my paralysis and disbelief enabled two years of his addiction to OW. Don't make the same mistake I did.

fiventhree Sun 06-Jan-13 22:24:18

Chuck him out ASAP . Also should have and didn't - although I did move rooms and stop speaking to him.

Look what is happening here - he plans to stay, save on maintenance , have all his domestic needs met, whilst treating you and the kids as though you are nothing .

Then if OW wants him at any time he will run after her and drop you like a hot brick, kids too. It is imperative that you get your self respect back , by showing him the door. Every single infidelity book on the market makes this clear, let alone all of our combined experience .

Other posters are quite right

AppearingDignified Mon 07-Jan-13 03:35:46

Abitwobbly, when did you throw your husband out?

Abitwobblynow Tue 08-Jan-13 16:06:44

I didn't Dig. I refused to believe the love of my life blah blah, I believed him when he told me he was depressed and working hard, I swallowed the red herring that I was the evil one, and I begged and pleaded. blush blush

Hence the urgent warnings (Warning: stupidity causes deep pain). My clinging and lack of protectiveness caused me a lot of suffering that can't really be forgotten. It hurts so bad so see the person who is supposed to be trusted and loving, mooning over someone else.

debtherat Wed 09-Jan-13 17:21:08

Back to work and school routine has pushed everything underground a bit. .. but last night .. I was sleeping downstairs as I don't want to disturb anyone else (and not sleeping with DH BTW) .. he came downstairs at 2ish and woke me up and basically just f**ked me. I was a bit out of it - obviously - only just managed to get to sleep. Afterwards - he didn't stay long - felt massively confused. No kind words - just demanding but I quite enjoyed it - any physical intrimacy is welcome given how fragile I feel. We haven't spoken about it .. but he seems less angry. What is going on?!!

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 09-Jan-13 17:26:57

Really? ... hmm Rape made it all better?


AppearingDignified Wed 09-Jan-13 17:31:53

Deb. I'm finding your posts increasingly upsetting and confusing.

Abitwobbly, you could heed your own advice and LTB now.

That is appalling behaviour on the part of your OH. I think you haven't yet realised quite what he has done to you.

Abitwobblynow Wed 09-Jan-13 17:39:31

That is rape and abuse Deb. Take care.

Dig - I am on a plan. smile. Never be in a position of dependency - well, that position takes time to resolve. (Especially when one poster said the sol cost over £300 for one consultancy ... you can't suck that kind of money out of your thumb you know)

AppearingDignified Wed 09-Jan-13 17:52:33

OP, have you read your thread. Change the names around and imagine what you can see. This is a distressing story.

Abitwobbly, just because you say you are leaving, doesn't mean you are. Take good care as you are obviously devastated. Do you have realistic leaving options?

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 09-Jan-13 17:56:21

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AppearingDignified Wed 09-Jan-13 18:07:23

That's my feeling, it's all too confusing and non interactive.

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 10-Jan-13 10:49:14

Hi all,

Many thanks for all of the reports about this.

Can we please point you all over to our We Believe You - Rape Awareness campaign.

Can we also ask that folks please report to us rather than post their doubts about and OP on the thread. As far as we can see this OP is all above board and has been around for a while on MN.

Please do take a moment to remind your self of our Talk guidelines

izzyizin Thu 10-Jan-13 11:44:24

Cog deleted? shock

<reaches for smelling salts>

Please don't see the fact he, effectively, sexually assaulted you in the middle of the night as any attempt on his part to regain or reinstitute the physical intimancy that is inherent in loving relationships, Deb, nor did he assert himself out of desire for you.

He merely used your body to evacuate the contents of his balls and, insodoing, he has reinforced his current belief that you are acquiescent to his irresistable will.

debtherat Thu 10-Jan-13 20:57:53

Sorry - I'm not taking the mick - just how things have panned out. Thanks to moderator. It is all confusing - nor sure what non inter active means? I am not a regular poster - just putting down how I have been feeling and what has happened because it calms me to write it (and I have felt v. agitated, had problems, sleeping - I have never posted so much and in the early hours).

MY OH is not violent... it wasn't rape... I could have stopped him. I thought it was reaching out for physical intimacy with me but may be not with me? He is quiet and withdrawn - like nothing has happened over the past week... but he has unsubscribed from No Strings Attached (made a point of telling me) and created passwords so I can't look at what was on our shared system. I want to talk to him but he has just gone to bed - I also don't want to talk to him because he is uncomfortable doing so... does not go anywhere for him? Men can be such emotional retards.

izzyizin Thu 10-Jan-13 21:14:24

And some women (and men) can be exceptionally emotionally needy and refuse to believe what's before their eyes.

But you wouldn't fall into that category, would you?

debtherat Thu 10-Jan-13 22:17:23

Hi - I don't think I am needy - independent, professional job, quite intelligent. I don't have brilliant self esteem but most woment I know don't.

This has just all overwhelmed me to be honest and I am trying to rationalise what to do for the best.

debtherat Wed 16-Jan-13 23:15:26

An update on my life which is turning into a cliche.

I have reached a level of accommodation with DH. The OW has withdrawn - letting him down gently -don't think she was as keen -and he had a wobble when he said this).. he's not sure what he wants now. I want him to stay and work through the issues which caused this - mainly lack of communication he says and him being my third priority (after kids and myself). He says I have changed and all seems to go back to birth of 2nd son (v. traumatic birth - obstructed labour)...may be a part of myself did go then - I don't have that level of insight into myself. He also says I keep raising the issue of his EA and it doesn't go anywhere - I explained that I feel a need to talk/communicate and that this is quite normal - he gets quite nasty and I give him some back. He seems to come back to me and my faults which I think are fine to air/discuss/work on as a start...but feels that this approach is pushing him away. I suggested Relate but he said he wasn't convinced it was worth the effort for him... and that he has changed - wants something different but wants to stay and work things through... for himself... and then maybe us. Wondering about the chances of a positive outcome - feel another bad night's sleep coming on.

NormaStanleyFletcher Wed 16-Jan-13 23:34:51

Do you have a kindle? If so download Shirly Glass 'just good friends' immediately.

If not order it.

If you are contemplating staying together at all then you need to read that book, as does he.

I will say again, thaat this is not about you or what you did or did not do, who you priorotised or any of that, it is about him and his choices.

debtherat Wed 16-Jan-13 23:46:43

Thanks - downloaded to my son's IPAD and have dipped imto it - but in a bit of an emotional blur at the time - need to read more systematically. I will suggest that he reads but 'm pretty sure he has never read a self-help book in his life.

I am truly hoping this is just a rough patch... other posters have said they have worked things though but majority are saying that their ex's behaviour becomes progressively nasty and distant which really worries me for me and more so for our two DS.

badinage Wed 16-Jan-13 23:55:09

Look, this bloke's only staying put because the OW wouldn't have him.

He's prepared to do fuck all to repair your marriage, when he should be on his fucking knees begging forgiveness - not blaming you for why he was fooling around like a lovesick teenager. You might not see what he did to you as rape, but I do. The very best spin on that you could give is that he used you as a wanksock in the middle of the night.

You'd be bonkers to agree to this arrangement. Where the hell's your self respect? Is this all you think you're worth?

He must have no respect for you at all to think you'll want to stay with him after all he's done.

izzyizin Thu 17-Jan-13 00:22:12

Seconds badinage.

Now we have a probable explanation as to why he found it necessary to sexually assault you a week ago.

The ow finally made it crystal clear he wasn't in with a chance and the poor diddum's wounded ego caused him to reinforce his masculinity by having his way with you.

Where's the contrition or the romance in that?

debtherat Thu 17-Jan-13 03:36:34

No contrition re me that I can see. He is justifying his behaviour as sort of payback for my neglect and distance. He is still wrapped up in his emotional loss and thinking about his future... but not able to see very clearly. Some of his attitude about this is surprisingly hard .. makes me doubt that I know him v. well at all. ..worried for his commitment to our 2 DS and other practical/financial commitments. Is this normal change for 45+ man? He even mentioned the house as being something he paid for (forgetting that I paid the deposit on this and our previous home and that my salary has paid for holidays, food, stuff for kids and house... can honestly say none has been spent on me - certainly not £600+ Xmas pressies he spent on his v. short lived romance with OW.

AppearingDignified Thu 17-Jan-13 05:23:33

Deb you sound so spaced out that I think you're still in actual shock. This thread appearsto be your diary and it is very distressing to read about a woman who is being spoken to and treated this way but just responds by floating around in a daze. Can your RL friends not step in and give you some strength and insight?

Mimishimi Thu 17-Jan-13 07:00:01

He's a jerk and he blames you for it. Now he's not so subtly threatening you over financial matters. See a solicitor.

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 17-Jan-13 09:12:29

Please believe me when I say he had the affair because he CHOSE to resolve his issues in this way. The responsibility is 100% his.

Yes, you both have 50:50 responsibility for the relationship - but he failed to talk to you about whatever problems he thinks you both are having. He could have chosen to suggest counselling, sent you an email, written a letter etc if talking was too difficult.

Instead he chose to have an affair and he is putting all the blame on you - how shitty is that.

Now he is making threats about finances. What a twat.

Read Shirley Glass as suggested upthread.

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 17-Jan-13 09:15:12

If I were you I would tell him that I am worth far more than being second best and to tell him to leave so that you can think about what you want.

The worst thing you can do is to cling, beg and try and be the perfect wife - he will NOT respect you and he will just pull away.

MadAboutHotChoc Thu 17-Jan-13 09:20:59
NormaStanleyFletcher Thu 17-Jan-13 13:17:09

Oh deb honey.

I know of a couple of people who's marriages have been saved by that book. But. And this is a big but. Their unfaithful partners admitted their full responsibility, did everything they could to make amends, and took back the blame they had put onto the faithful partner in the early days (and from reading on here that blame is part of a template that most of them follow).

If he is not prepared to do any or all of that then I really think you should ask him to leave, if only t to give you some space.

PostBellumBugsy Thu 17-Jan-13 13:32:56

Coming to this very late - but Deb, if you H has any intention of making a go of things with you, he should be down on his knees begging your forgiveness. He should be falling over himself to be a good partner to you and father to the boys.

The fucking you in the middle of the night thing is quite disturbing and your response seems very passive to everything.

Please find your inner anger and self belief & start being really cross with your H. Don't be second best to the "inspirational friend" who didn't want him.

izzyizin Thu 17-Jan-13 13:50:52

Aw jeez, he is an utter out and out berk.

How much of the house he reckons he's paid for does he think he'll be left with if you divorce him? The answer, happily, is a lot less than he may believe as, if he's unwilling to do, a Court will take the needs of the dc into account when determining the division of marital assets and maintenance.

It's time for you to lawyer up, deb. Source a solicitor who specialises in divorce and family law and who offers a free half an hour initial consultation and find out what you will be entitled to receive in the event you decide to bail out of this sham marriage - and whenever that may be, it won't be a day too soon

debtherat Fri 18-Jan-13 04:35:38

Finally got an apology by text - sorry for I let you down and hurt you. .. after a day of recriminations because I found love letter he wrote (he doesn't know I think) describing her as most beautiful woman he has ever met, daring to dream of their life together - this one not sent but he refers to an earlier one. I also got into his closely guarded phone - texts confirmed not fantasy but she seems much cooler than him and distancing herself... wondering if she just strung him along or he completely overstepped the mark... or just highly moral and doing right thing? Do people like this exist? The concert tickets he bought for her are for Sat night in London - he is on tenterhooks I bet waiting for the call to meet her. Pisses me off to think that they won't get used - over £200 - Alt -J???. Got a sauna/swim with friend tonight - pray to God will give me a full night's sleep and I might ask her advice (she used to be legal exec in family law firm).

madgered Fri 18-Jan-13 07:56:22

just reading through your thread OP. You're me in a nutshell.

I'm reading "getting past your breakup: how to turn a devastating loss into the best thing that ever happened to you" by Susan J Elliott. it's helping a lot.

every night before I go to bed I take out my note book and write down all my rage. Then I say some affirmations like "I am happy, I am bright, I am healthy, everything is all right". after that I lie down in bed and meditate. I visualize my guardian angel severing the ties between me and DH and I watch my DH float away until he disappears. I've started sleeping better now and I have found an inner strength.

divorce proceedings have started, they are nasty. but I know it will end and I'm looking forward to my new life adventure. Xx

debtherat Fri 18-Jan-13 13:12:16

We are v. similar but I don't want him to go ..I have a sneaking suspicion this is about him just having more time for himself too and his exercise/training. .. so he can prioritise this over me, the kids, domestic stuff all he really does is empty the bins once a week!!

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 18-Jan-13 13:34:30

As long as he knows you don't want him to know, nothing will change.

LOSS is the only thing that is likely to motivate cheaters - loss of their home comforts, family etc will burst their affair/fantasy fuelled bubble.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 18-Jan-13 13:34:52

*As long as he knows you don't want him to LEAVE, nothing will change.

snowshapes Fri 18-Jan-13 13:44:57

"he came downstairs at 2ish and woke me up and basically just f**ked me. I was a bit out of it - obviously - only just managed to get to sleep"

sad Look back at that, honestly and with as much clarity as you can muster. If someone else wrote that, what would you say? It's about reasserting his position, and possessing you - it is not about love. I am another one who would call it rape, there was certainly not awake, engaged consent. Coupled with emotional abuse, which is what you have described. I would tell him to go.

I have been a single parent, I would become one again in this situation. You have your dignity, your autonomy, and best of all, when you are stronger and comfortable in yourself, the chance of meeting someone who respects you.

izzyizin Fri 18-Jan-13 14:00:36

Fingers crossed the concert gets cancelled due to the current weather conditions as he may get his money back, in which case I suggest you order yourself £200 of whatever you fancy in full and reasonable expectation that he pays the bill.

Knowledge is power. Get sound legal advice and with that knowledge, you'll have the power to start pushing his buttons just as he's done to you.

What a self-entitled fucking twat you married. FGS, honey, give some serious consideration as to what purpose he serves in your life because no man's worth what you're going through.

badinage Fri 18-Jan-13 14:04:38

There's no helping you if you want him to stay because you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of misery.

If you think you can rescue this marriage on your own you are sadly mistaken.

He doesn't respect you and he doesn't love you.

VitoCorleone Fri 18-Jan-13 14:19:40

You seriously need to leave this man!

He has made it clear that he's only with you until something better comes along.

I really dont want to be harsh as i know you're in a bad place right now, but seriously, get a backbone and tell him to get the fuck out of your house, tell him to fuck off with his OW and not come crying to you when he realises the grass isnt greener.

Why on earth do you want to be with him? He has absolutley no respect for you, he is knocking your confidence down constantly, you are spending your days on eggshells. This is no life. You deserve way better than this shit

Please tell him to go, and hopefully once he realises what he's done it will be too late, you will be happy and unwilling to forgive and forget.

Xales Sat 19-Jan-13 09:51:10

Please listen to what this man is showing and telling you he wants.

He wants you to do every thing in the house cooking, cleaning, washing his dirty clothes etc including his one job if putting the bins out.

In return he wants all his time for his hobbies, to explore any new woman he feels like,ignoring your emotional needs.

He will also if he feels the need decide to use your body to satisfy himself if none of the new women are around without your agreement.

Your merely exist to cook, clean, maintain the house and provide a hole when required.

Did he even use a condom to protect you from STIs or does he not even care about you that much.

He will then leave you with out a backward glance when this or the next spiritual connection clicks their finger.

You have no marriage it has gone. All that is left is you slaving to his requirements hoping he will treat you better.

You are worth more that this.

wiseoldowl Sat 19-Jan-13 10:10:19

i have just read your thread & you seriously need to listen to the advice.

the other posters have seen this many MANY times before and you are getting excellent advice, unfortunately due to the shock you are in (& the fact that you dont want your life to change ...yes I've been there, I've cried for months on end) that you dont want to face reality.

This man is treating you with complete my XH told me later - if it wasnt her (OW) it would be someone else. PLEASE think on this.

IMHO people need an excuse to escape from marriage, his OW wouldnt have him, so he will keep looking...& he will keeping treating you like shit if you let him.
TAKE ACTION, its about your self esteem & making YOUR choices at this stage.
Go for a long walk and seriously think about YOUR & DCs future
take careX

Springdiva Sat 19-Jan-13 21:03:25

The DSs which you both claim to be putting first must be aware of the tension and atmosphere in the house. They are probably upset but feel they must maintain the secrecy that everyone else is upholding. You're not being fair to them imo.

debtherat Sat 19-Jan-13 22:41:26

You are right - we are giving them both lots of reassurance and avoiding any serious discussions within earshot... but they know something is going on... the oldest one is being particularly loving and the younger one wanting more cuddles. DH is also being v. nice to them to his credit.

badinage Sat 19-Jan-13 22:47:53

Your responses on this thread are very odd.

As though you're not listening to a word anyone is saying.

debtherat Sat 19-Jan-13 22:56:30

Well he didn't go to the concert - not sure if cancelled... bloody waste of £200 quid if it did go ahead. Got back from shopping at lunchtime and couldn't see his car and for few horrible minutes though she had clicked her fingers and he had gone... but still around. He was to me anyway visibly upset the rest of the day but I think he is trying to be nice. I am starting to think the OW took him for a ride...probably not the one he wanted!

We have had sex a few times - and it has been good - feel the whole thing has raised my sexual interest because I am craving closeness - not sure about him - we are not sleeping together afterwards. I have also become a bit manic about doing things - spring cleaning/de-cluttering in the middle of winter... I know this is using physical activity to quieten my mind. I still feel on high alert when he is on PC/using phone. I know I need a big conversation with him about what next but I want him over the OW and thinking clearly, being able to talk without too much high drama.

badinage Sat 19-Jan-13 22:59:37

Okay I'm out of this thread......I think your reaction to this and your responses on this thread are just weird.

debtherat Sat 19-Jan-13 22:59:47

There is a world of difference between being on the outside looking in and being on the inside just processing what has happened. I am normally a logical person but .. feel out of control almost.

izzyizin Sat 19-Jan-13 23:41:29

I want him over the OW and thinking clearly

That isn't going to happen, deb.

What you are experiencing is the 'hysterical' need to sexually bond with him after, in your mind, so nearly losing him to an ow but, as evidenced by the lack of meaningful dialogue between you as a couple, he feels no such need and is merely taking advantage of your resurgence of sexual desire for him.

What is happening to him is that his wounded ego is causing him to turn to you for sexual healing, but within a short time he will crave the sense of revitalisation and rejuvenation, the sense of 'wholeness', that he found in the ow and he will seek to replace her with another ow.

If you wish to be in with a fighting chance of saving your marriage and having him restored to the faithful man he was before his affair, real or imagined, with the ow, you will tell him to leave so that you can regain control of yourself and use your logic to question whether you are prepared to compromise your personal integrity in order to stay married to him.

When he is out in the cold he will begin to appreciate the warmth he had with you in the marital home. Before you can give any consideration to taking him back, he has to see his marriage to you as being infinitely more desirable than any ow and he has to understand that his ego, in the form of an ill-considered desire to re-live his lost youth, has caused him to throw away all he holds dear.

In short, he has to want nothing more than to grow old with you before you can give any consideration to allowing him this privilege.

But, by the time he reaches this conclusion, your logical and practical talents may have enabled you to make life without him preferable to life with him.

MerryCouthyMows Sat 19-Jan-13 23:49:20

Well take some control.

If one of your friends told you that her husband had had an affair, what would you be telling her?

If she told you that he blamed her for the affair, what would you be telling her?

If she told you that he had sex with her while she was basically asleep and unable to consent, what would you say to her? (I class this as rape too btw).

If she told you that he had said he was actively seeking other women, and she had found evidence if this in dating site profiles and messages, what would you say to her?

If she told you that her husband was mooning over the OW instead of trying to fall over himself seeking her forgiveness, what would you say to her?

If she told you that he was saying things like he had paid for the house etc, what would you tell her?

If she told you that he wanted to be put first, above his DC's, above anything else, and have his wishes met all the time (sexual, domestic and free time), ignoring everybody else's needs, what would you say to her?

If she told you that both her DC's were behaving unusually, being more cuddly and tearful, because they were picking up on the atmosphere, what would you say to her?

Seriously, do you want to live the next however many years of your life waiting for him to chest again, trying to not make any domestic demands on him, putting yourself aside to fulfil his every whim, allowing him to have as much free hobby time as he wants while you get none, standing by whole he has affair after affair, shag after shag and then puts you at risk of STI's by having sex ON you while you are not even awake enough to consent?

Do you want to be continuously wondering what he is doing so secretly on the computer now that he has set up passwords - NOT the actions of somebody who is going to be faithful and trying to seek forgiveness?

Do you want to turn yourself inside out, and crush whatever self respect you have left by letting him treat you like this?

And as this will be your DS's role model of how to conduct a relationship, do you want your DS's to grow up thinking that it is ok to cheat on your partner, ok to expect them to do all the shitwork while they go and do hobbies and screw around?

This is NOT a good environment for you OR your DS's.

The ONLY person this is currently suiting is your husband.

Why do you feel you don't deserve better than this? Because you DO. Everybody deserves better than a cheating, lying scumbag as a partner, who is refusing to stay faithful, is open about the fact that they are looking to cheat again, and as well as being unrepentant, is even trying to blame their partner.

You DO deserve better than that.

izzyizin Sat 19-Jan-13 23:53:55

Bravo, Merry


madgered Sat 19-Jan-13 23:55:16

hear, hear! Well said.

Springdiva Sun 20-Jan-13 09:08:13

I'm out too.

Xales Sun 20-Jan-13 09:22:05

He's in love/infatuated with the OW. he is not necessarily going to get over that for years.

He hasn't even told you he wants to be with you. He thinks so little he would have and still would be off after her, dumping you without a second thought if she said yes.

Google hysterical bonding. You think him having sex with you shows he cares? It doesn't it shows he is using you for sex and you are desperately thinking sex really equals love/affection.

He spent all day in front of you and your DC feeling sorry for himself without a care as to how much that upsets you.

He has no interest in fixing your marriage. It exists as a convenience for him to have freshly washed pants.

When will you fight for yourself?

debtherat Sun 20-Jan-13 16:38:14

Had a shit day. He looked this morning so sad I gave him a hug - told him it would all be OK one way or another. He was apologetic saying he wanted to keep my friendship and then, after some more comforting from me, he simply reiterated that he wants to move out to signal to the reluctant(?) OW that he has definitely left the neglectful wife (not his words)... hopefully get her, otherwise take his chances - be available for other potential true loves.,... having wasted 25 years with me obviously. He said he will do his best to spend as much time with kids and stay local- I asked him had he thought about choices he might have to make what with the all the plans he has to take her to Prague, cosy evenings in, going to concerts or all the ttime he will need to spend internet dating - might be a clash with other DS activities? Shit, he might have to reduce his exercise from 15 hours a week. If the neglects them, I will make his life a misery.

I told him to get on his bike, estate agents are open on Sunday, not to put anything on facebook until I have spoken to my family (my parents will be devastated and worried for me and DSs). Manically de-clurred loft, took old clothes to charity collection. I got back and he was watching the f**King football. I asked why he was still here and he just looked hurt. I took one of sons swimming - got back - he'd been exercising and started watching Man Utd.. with older son. Kids went out to play in snow - I was hoping he might play with them but sport not finished so not a priority! He then emptied bins quickly (his weekly chore) and has now gone for sports massage.

For a man with so much definite intent about exiting this marriage he seems remarkably inert!

debtherat Sun 20-Jan-13 16:43:58

"If she told you that he wanted to be put first, above his DC's, above anything else, and have his wishes met all the time (sexual, domestic and free time), ignoring everybody else's needs, what would you say to her?"

It all boils down to this doesn't it? I know we are all selfish but this is bare faced entitlement and because I haven't met his sexual needs in the small wiindow of opportunity he allows I am cast aside for someone who seems more responsive

No Deb, you're being taken for a mug. A place of convenience for when someone else comes along.

Kick him the fuck out now. Before he causes you and your children more harm than he already has.

Listen to every person on this thread.

MadAboutHotChoc Sun 20-Jan-13 17:44:56

deb - when are you going to listen to our advice? He is taking the PISS out of you. Stop pandering to this man and his whims FFS!

* bangs head on wall and exit thread *

Skyebluesapphire Sun 20-Jan-13 17:48:51

I agree. Pack his bags NOW and kick him out. He will stay there using you until he wants to go. Make the decision for him, he has treated you like dirt.

wiseoldowl Mon 21-Jan-13 17:47:49

looked this morning so sad I gave him a hug

WTF Deb - tell him to get the hell out of your life and stop taking the F***ing Piss.

izzyizin Mon 21-Jan-13 19:55:56

FFS. You're comforting him? shock

Every time you see him ask 'Why are you still here?'. Every time he comes home, register surprise and say 'What the fuck are you doing here?'

If you're still sharing a bedroom with him, sling pack all his belongings into black bags, pile them by the front door, and tell him he's sleeping on the sofa until he gets his act together and fucks off to his wonderful new and exceptionally lonely life.

debtherat Tue 22-Jan-13 00:35:20

Feels like he is in denial. Trying to keep a lid on my anger - kids are around - but comments come out - are you still here? found any good dating sites? I emailed him as dispassionately as I could during the day explaining hard for me to be in the same room as him... but he hasn't responded... not even an acknowledgement - this from someone who cares for me still deeply. He has said he might go to relate but on his own - to work through his own issues - not sure what will happen here and he has said that at the weekend he will look for somewhere else to live... watch this space. I keep thinking that in his last few evenings with kids in family home he might like to engage with them a bit more - sitting in from of TV drinking stella, watching sport and the listening to music on his Iphone (music from the concert he never got to go to probably). He said the tickets were a gift to OW and her 20 yr old daughter.. he is such a kind and giving person.

Oh god deb, get him the hell out PLEASE - for your own sanity and self worth. Bloody hell, he thinks he's God's gift, doesn't he sad

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 01:19:12

Aw bless his stinky little cotton socks. What an exceptionally generous soul he is and what, may I ask, has he gifted his dc with of late by way of tickets to their favourite activities/events?

Tell him that, as you can no longer countenance looking at his impression of a lovelorn swain ugly mug, he can check into a Travelodge or other budget hotel until such time as he can get his arse in gear and sort out alternative accomodation for himself.

Think of it this way: in booting him out encouraging him to find himself in a sparse hotel room free from the hubbub of the marital home he'll have a head start on his proposed Relate sessions as he'll have fuck all else to do except relate to himself.

May we take it that you are no longer catering and laundering to his highness's needs in any way? If not, stop now - he might as well get in training for his new self-catering life.

Apropos of nowt much, I wish I had £1 for every time I've mistyped 'martial' for 'marital' grin

debtherat Tue 22-Jan-13 01:56:12

Not catering to needs no. Suggested travel lodge but no movement there (maybe lack of funds - £600 of Xmas pressies for OW and £20k redundancy all spent). He has said he will START looking this weekend. I hope he is preparing an honest script for the kids... wondering how honest it should be - not the mummy and daddy don't love each other anymore but daddy doesn't love mummy and feel loved by mummy and wants to live away from mummy so he can see new female friends. How much honesty can children take or do they need? Should I pretend it's mutual and hide my upset/not show emotions - doesn't that just push so much underground and cause confusion?? breed emotional secrecy. I've got an appointment on my own with Relate - wish it could be earlier - and cheaper! Hope he is doing the same because I think he is hurting too for different reasons. Suggested a friend of his but he said no because "he is such a family man???!!"

Stop engaging, trying to understand - it'll exhaust you. Tell the kids you're very sad. Why pretend? They'll see through it. You won't be protecting them, just him. And why would you want to do that?

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 02:20:56

Tell him he can STOP living in the marital home as of this weekend otherwise it will effectively become martial a warzone which will not be of any benefit to the dc who have, no doubt, already picked up on the tension between their dps.

How old are your dc? Are they young enough for you to access more affordable/free counselling through a Sure Start centre?

debtherat Tue 22-Jan-13 06:59:12

They are 8 and 12 - not good ages at all I suspect as they love their dad (I think) and can understand much more than if they were younger. I think their schools have something to help with family issues/emotional issues.

Concentrateonthegood Tue 22-Jan-13 07:18:33

So sorry for you, OP. one of the most painful things I witnessed was the love of my life mourning the loss of his lover when he came back to me. I set him free as I couldn't bear it. Hope you are ok. Agree with izzy, let him go and take control over your future x

Many high schools have v good counselling for the youngest, tell the class teacher when you feel ready and you will find they will do anything they can to help.

Abitwobblynow Tue 22-Jan-13 08:31:35

"And some women (and men) can be exceptionally emotionally needy and refuse to believe what's before their eyes.

But you wouldn't fall into that category, would you?"

<Holds up hand> That's me, 2007 - 2010 ...

Deb you are in utter numb paralysed shock (remember it well). I am sure you will start seeing that he was always selfish, and you were the one to make allowances.

Good luck, I am not going to tell you what to do, you will do what you are able to.

How are things now?

debtherat Tue 22-Jan-13 14:15:20

Oh God - just had call from his GP saying the results of his blood test are back but they don't have a number for him - why did they call me/his home number? did he ask to be contacted on his mobile number (forgetting they had an old one)? Apparently he has an infection and needs to pick up a prescription - please God don't let it be what the worst cliche could make it be!! I texted him to pass on message asking if I needed a test too. He ignored the question. The surgery won't tell me what is wrong but will let me collect the prescription so I'm off!

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 14:18:33

Go gal! Get that 'script and we'll work out what type of infection he's got. smile

houseelfdobby Tue 22-Jan-13 14:28:37

I have been feeling for you. I hope everything works out one way or another. You are doing really well at such a difficult time.

debtherat Tue 22-Jan-13 16:16:32

Calcium tablets!!

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 16:26:10


Swap the tablets for any other vitamin pill of similar shape/size and up his life insurance.

With any luck at least his teeth will fall out grin

What sort of infection needs calcium tablets?!

Hypocalcaemia isn't an infection, sounds like chlamydia or similar if it required a blood test and large antibiotic tablets . It's not normal for them to check a relatively fit makes calcium levels either. Weird!

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 17:29:37

As he hasn't been prescribed antibiotics, we can rule out the obvious.

It seems probable he went to the doc with some ailment or other and a blood test has shown he's deficient in calcium.

comingintomyown Tue 22-Jan-13 19:08:05

I expect you will arrive at the conclusion everyone wants you to in due course , be prepared to reflect back on this and wonder what you were thinking in dragging out the end of your marriage because truly it has ended for him

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 19:31:31

A blood test is necessary to confirm HIV, hepatitis B, syphilis, and herpes. Swab/urine tests can determine whether chlamydia and gonorrhea are present.

If he's deficient in calcium it's most probably due to a poor diet and the sooner he's packed off to cater for himself, the better.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 22-Jan-13 20:08:26

Or maybe he didn't go for a STD test after all?

izzyizin Tue 22-Jan-13 20:43:46

With few exceptions, going to a GP for sti tests is likely to result in a referral to a GUM clinic.

How is the lovelorn one patient tonight, deb?

You need to do a 180. Don't be prepared to wait for him to stop mooning, tell him to go, find a lawyer and prepare for divorce. Take back the initiative. Shake him out of his selfish teenage complacency. Why the fuck should you WAIT for him to decide if you are good enough?????

You might find he manages to clear his head pronto.

Bugger me I'm good at giving advice I didn't follow wink

Oops! Bit late. Sorry blush

izzyizin Wed 23-Jan-13 12:41:20

<waves to Orm>

We can't all be born with the benefit of hindsight, but acting on the considered and sound advice you've been given here is the ONLY way you're going to discover yourself whether your marriage is worth the effort of saving or is dead in the water, deb.

2wwmadness Wed 23-Jan-13 12:45:01

This was me a year ago. Except I was of with our 1st child. I took control. Divorced him, re located, new home new life and I am the happiest I have ever been because I know my self worth. Don't underestimate your self worth. Ask yourself.

Do you deserve to be treated like this?

TroublesomeEx Wed 23-Jan-13 13:30:51

OP I hope you don't mind me joining so late.

IIRC this is the first thread I have ever read on Relationships.

Please, please, please listen to all the other postsers on here.

I found out that my fiercely loyal, faithful husband had joined a dating agency in November. By December I'd also discovered that he was having an affair with a woman from work. <Yawn> How tediously pedestrian hmm

It's because I was emotionally distant. Er. Because he thought we'd made a mistake marrying in the first place. Er. Because I'd never made him feel special enough/like he was loved.

He wanted to try again, he thinks he still loves the OW, but he still loves me. I can't say anything because I have "no right to tarnish the most amazing few weeks of his life"...

I've read your posts thinking "yep, heard that"... "yes, heard that"... "oh my god, yep, heard that too".

He's begged me to let him hold me when I was upset, and become nasty when I said he isn't the person who gets to do that any more.

He's now told me he needs time to decide whether it's me he really wants or the OW hmm because he still loves me, but he doesn't know if I'll ever be able to trust him again. (See, still my fault!) Oh and yeah, right, of course I'm going to wait around to see if he wants me or not. Idiot.

It's all my fault. He'd never have done any of it if I'd loved him more or been a better wife. Bollocks. He did it because he's a man, just like the others, who thinks with his dick.

You have to start listening to his crap for what it really is and rise above it. And whilst he thinks you are there willing to take him back if that's what he decides, he will mess you around. You are better off without him.

A lot of people on here said to me that I'd be ok and it's hard, but on the whole I am.

You deserve better than this.
He is following the script. I had never heard of the script. But it exists.

Your husband is a twat, like many before him and many yet to be discovered.

Makes me wonder if there are any genuinely faithful men out there!

debtherat Wed 23-Jan-13 14:11:43

Thank God it wasn't the STD part of the script!

Latest news is that - having thought it over - he wants to stay for the children and me - the right thing to do he says - not sure if this is moral choice, an emotional one? He is not looking to us to do anything different which cannot be right long term. I am insisting that he goes to Relate - to sort out any ambiguity he feels... otherwise I might be living with a man who feels duty bound to be here but emotionally absent and the same thing will happen again no doubt. The OW is off the scene it appears but if she pops up again, what will happen? His emails and phone are off limits so no outlet for me checking his honestly levels going forward. I am left wondering why he told me - I was not particularly suspicious. I came across this snippet about exit affairs..which resonates because he said if not the OW (the great love) he thought he would like to meet someone else and I did find dating websites on his private email while he was falling in love with OW.

"6 The exit affair
The purpose of an exit affair is to try to force the non-straying partner into ending the relationship. Alternatively, it might have started as a distraction from the pain of separation. The affair says, ‘It’s over’, when honest communication has not been happening for a long time. Such an affair could be seen as the cause of the split, but it’s usually a way out after the straying partner has made a decision to end the relationship"

I am also going to Relate on my own partly because I feel like shit about myself, want to be able to function properly (no tears at work) and to see how I can communicate better. Some of you said my emotional responses to this were strange/disconnected - so maybe I need some "work". Like most people I have a couple of events which dominate my emotional landscape and a couple are very negative (involving my 2 older brothers) but mostly I need to be normal again for my two darling DS.

Thanks for your support particularly during the sleepless nights. I will keep posting and hope for a positive outcome for me and all of you who are on here for emotional rescue.

debtherat Wed 23-Jan-13 14:19:49

I am starting to think that faithfulness is a dead concept. if my met my OH, you would think he was the faithful type but social media tantalises, makes it all so easy - men and women - to imagine themselves with other people - having guilt-free, new sexual and emotional outlets - see my OH's site of choice - "No strings attached" - then delete from history. There are even articles about the popularity of the site across all social classes in Times/Telegraph. All so easy until you are found out!!

TroublesomeEx Wed 23-Jan-13 14:37:32

Oh god deb I could have written that first paragraph myself. Word for word.

Seriously. Word. For. Fucking. Word.

I wish I'd come onto Relationships at the time. But I've been avoiding it because it's still quite raw and hurts to read stuff like that which you've posted about the 'exit affairs' because that's exactly what my husband did.

The fact is, of course he is saying he wants to stay with the children and you. It's not that it's the 'right' thing to do, but it's the easy thing to do. Where would he go if he left?

You're always going to have the worry about the OW popping up again. Especially if his phone etc are off limits.

I've also been told I was a "spiteful bitch" because I told DS (14) that he was seeing someone else. However, I didn't say anything to DS until he started receiving gifts from "Dad's friend at work" and my ex started talking about moving out of his parents and in with her rather than getting a place of his own.

They will say whatever they think it will take. You just need to put your shields up and deflect, deflect, deflect!

TroublesomeEx Wed 23-Jan-13 14:45:11

I haven't told many people that my husband had an affair. Because I'm ashamed. His friends and people who know him simply wouldn't believe it! Or would believe it was so out of character for him that they would only be able to rationalise it to themselves by making it my fault. They'd see him as the 'victim'.

I think it's too easy, too. It's also normalised. Just like "everyone's got an ipad" when actually, they haven't.

My husband joined a site called maritalaffair. Pretty unambiguous!

I wonder how many other women 100% believe that their husbands are completely faithful when they aren't. Or whether there are actually some men who would be.

As I said at the time, I've never been smug about it but I had posted on plenty of threads on MN saying how lucky I was that I could trust my husband 100% and whatever other faults he had, this would never be one of them.

And you can't help but wonder if it's just that you're not tall enough, or slim enough, or pretty enough, or funny enough, or clever enough...

But I won't trust a man ever again and that's what makes me the most sad. That I won't even be able to meet someone else. Because I 100% trusted my husband on this issue and if I wasn't enough to keep him faithful...

Oh. just ignore me, I'm just wallowing now! grin

wiseoldowl Wed 23-Jan-13 20:24:22

Deb, I'm still sorry to hear that you are accepting this complete crap....I agree another poster has said that he wants to make you make the decision and in the meantime you will be washing,cooking,cleaning for him while he searches for a new OW. Please wise up.
Folkgirl, sorry to hear re your STBXH and the situation, I know how you feel but please do not feel that all men are the same. The best way to move forward is to be happy in yourself,to learn from what has happened, to take a long look at yourself and to not let your bad experiences ruin the rest of your life. Not all women are the same nor are all men. I also believe there is an element of genetic philandering XH has so many relatives that have also had affairs...perhaps it runs in the genes.

Xales Wed 23-Jan-13 20:44:14

Why do you think so little of yourself that you are even considering this option?

Three days ago he was determined to move out to signal to OW that he was free and that he had dumped you and your marriage for her. And that if she didn't come back he would be off searching for other people!

He is not staying with you because he loves you. He is staying 'for the children'. That means he will be sniffing after every bit of skirt that gets his attention because you are no where near the top of his list.

If you haven't already please get to a clinic and get yourself checked for STIs. You cannot trust that this man would tell you the truth if he had one. The only peace of mind is to check for yourself.

I don't mean to be harsh but I think you are a mug if you let him stay. It will slowly destroy every piece of self respect and dignity you have until you are a hollow shell. Then he will dump you any way for someone more interesting (in his opinion)

wiseoldowl Wed 23-Jan-13 20:49:05

agree with Xales....STRONGLY

izzyizin Wed 23-Jan-13 21:12:32

Deb, please act on this advice, honey. Boot him out - NOW. And then consider your options which, unlike his, are legion.

debtherat Wed 23-Jan-13 21:58:25

I don't see any options for me but single parenthood and loneliness. I have spent a few hours summarising our time together from the intense love we had when we first met, our lives pre children, joy at children being born, wonderful holidays. Ok not all good and lots of petty annoyance more especially recently but just stresses of normal life. Just can't see this story ending with such bitterness and rejection.

izzyizin Wed 23-Jan-13 22:04:22

Heaven forfend that single parenthood should equate with lonlieness! Far from it.

Think of it as your opportunity to make new friends and influence people with your sheer joie de vivire and make any 'rejection' on your part, not his.

Hundreds of thousands have done it before you - and you can do it too.

Xales Wed 23-Jan-13 22:09:01

Will you really be any more lonely in a house on your own or staying in a house with this man? Wondering every time he goes out if he is going to meet another special, spiritual connection or two or three?

You can develop new friendships, new hobbies or some old interests you can re kindle?

PatriciaHolm Wed 23-Jan-13 22:20:42

Single parenthood is surely, surely to be preferred over being this man's unloved housekeeper, washing his pants so he can go leave them on someone else's floor? Waiting on tenterhooks for the next time he meets "the love of his life" and leaves you?

He no longer loves you. I'm sorry, but he checked out of this relationship months ago, and has no interest in checking back in; the world of single bloke sex is way too inviting.

izzyizin Wed 23-Jan-13 22:26:35

For the lowdown on the lonely world of 'single bloke sex' see my response of Sun 06-Jan-13 07:44:11

Your h is so going to enjoy his new life as a single twat bloke not grin

ZenNudist Wed 23-Jan-13 23:26:00

Whichever way you tell your story the ending as you put it is not going to be what you hoped for. This man is not the man you married and without a cold hard shock is unlikely to ever change.

From what you've said it does not sound like he is the type to see outside if his own head or look to improve his behaviour.

Lots of people have said the same thing. Here it is again. Being on your own is not awful like you are making out. What would be awful and a complete waste of life would be to squander the rest of your relative youth and your precious years of raising a family on this selfish faithless lying twunt. Doing it alone would be preferable to having your self confidence trashed and your spirit broken by someone who sees you as second rate.

Your strategy when I look back at this thread seems to be to hold on and wait for him to accept you as a consolation prize when he realises that he can't get anything better. You don't seem to object to settling for a man who has freely admitted to keeping a roving eye out for his 'true' love. You have treated this like a phase and not like him taking a wrecking ball to everything your relationship was founded on. Seriously. Why?

TroublesomeEx Thu 24-Jan-13 09:10:13

I can't promise that you won't feel lonely, but the feeling won't last. You will be fine.

How old are the children? My 14 year old has become a very willing babysitter. I don't go out loads of course, but if I want to go out in the week, I can do.

You need to get some space from him now. I can understand the initial willingness to forget about it all, put it all behind him, allow him to stay and carry on as before. But it isn't as before, or rather it will be as before, you just didn't know what "before" really was.

The less time you spend around him the more you will realise that you don't need him. Whilst he is still there there is a sense of 'normality'. He is taking the piss.

Are your children at school? Do you work? Could you go to college for interest or for work? Could you join a local daytime social group? Is there anything you'd always wanted to do but felt your H wouldn't support it?

This isn't what you wanted, it isn't what you planned for but this is your time now. Embrace it!

Read what Xales wrote again.

TroublesomeEx Thu 24-Jan-13 09:10:31

put it all behind you

Abitwobblynow Thu 24-Jan-13 09:11:56

Izzy and Xales: keep talking! I am listening!

TroublesomeEx Thu 24-Jan-13 09:16:14

For the lowdown on the lonely world of 'single bloke sex' see my response of Sun 06-Jan-13 07:44:11

Such a sweet image!! grin

examiner99 Thu 24-Jan-13 10:29:04

Hi Deb, I'm new here... A lot of this - not all - sounds familiar to me, especially the 'neglectful' wife bollocks. I stood my ground and pointed out i had no choice but to prioritise the defenceless children as he was away/prioritising drinking and exercising. I was ready to end it and actually was quite looking forward to time alone, to complete the children's upbringing my way. It was the idea of 'the story ending with such bitterness and rejection' that turned him round. With such a back story he couldn't do it. It was two years of pain and confusion but I just kept my head down and steered a steady course of 'normal' life while he sorted himself out. As a result it seems i still have a DH, one I still find funny and exciting but who I can't confide in and don't rely on. Once DD3 hits 18 this year I will review the situation.

Don't know if this helps you... I guess I'm saying the dramatic 'lock him out' stuff is not the only way...

Oh well OP, let's hope the pair of you grow old together in love, trust, happiness and mutual support, eh? I wish you the best of luck.

izzyizin Sun 27-Jan-13 18:57:02

I've just read your contribution on another thread, deb, and it's time to update your own.

So that'll be a 'no change' then, will it?

debtherat Mon 28-Jan-13 14:39:36

It changes from day to day... he is still looking v. sorry for himself - adding details to his diaries about the few times they spent together - a walk, a drink, a curry... and massively protective of his phone.... also sites being closed down quickly when I enter the room. She has definitely called an end to it but she has him on a thread - he would jump if she called? Sitting next to him on sofa, he angles the phone away from me. I asked to see what he was looking at on the phone the other evening and he said nastily "none of your business" - he seems to feel I have violated his privacy by finding out more about the OW he told me about - as if I am not paranoid about this! Wonder if he is stalking her via her daughter's facebook page or someone else she is in regular contact with? Also, his work blackberry is completely off limits - just ridiculous - I KNOW HE TOLD ME, HE'S STAYED AND I NEED A PROPER RE-COMMITMENT!! He's off to Relate soon - on his own - doesn't want to do it together... doubt he will tell me what is happening. Just wish he could talk more about the whole thing ... although I think it would be about his feelings of rejection. I know we need to discuss how/if we will move forward... but children/work/ housework/life keeps getting in the way and he is so closed down. I have had an apology - by text... but that's it.

debtherat Mon 28-Jan-13 14:46:27

The wrecking ball analogy is so true. I'm not sure about being second rate - do feel we have aged differently. I have grown old gracefully - without benefits of hair dye, liposuction, etc. I'm middle aged,overweight - he has aged better - is it as simple as this and maybe he perceives this disparity and feels he could do better? Also bear in mind he spends lots of time through athletics etc around fine female specimens (relatively speaking) - in physical terms I am more of an East German swimmer!

izzyizin Mon 28-Jan-13 16:34:08

He's still taking the piss and you're still letting him?

So, 'tis as I thought, no change.

Do you not realise this state of affairs will not undergo any alteration until you kick his sorry arse out?

As for violating his privacy, tell him he can have all the privacy he wants in his bedsit elsewhere, but you fully intend to discover everything you can about his lady love with a view to naming her in your petition to divorce.

PatriciaHolm Mon 28-Jan-13 17:02:34

Oh for FFS.

He doesn't love you. Never will again. Leave him. Give your children the chance to develop a proper of how relationships work, and don't let them grow up thinking this is what they can expect and should put up with. If you won't leave for you, do it for them.

Xales Mon 28-Jan-13 17:50:21

Are you still sitting waiting like Cinderella for him to realise he loves you and put you first?

Never going to happen.

Your house is a convenient place for him to live until he finds somewhere he prefers to be and then it will be see ya deb without a backward glance.

izzyizin Mon 28-Jan-13 18:59:28

He spends time adding details to his diaries about the few times they spent together <boak>

Is the ow's name Barbara Allen hmm

fightingfog Mon 28-Jan-13 19:45:02

OP there is hope. Because the GOOD thing about this is that at least you know how little he thinks of you, how far down his list of priorities you are, how far he is prepared to go in shagging anything that moves 'finding himself' and how it's all going to end for you.

You're lucky. If my exH hadn't been so good at lying through his teeth for so many, many years I'd have divorced him long ago. Instead I can't find a point at which I knew he was honest which rather makes a mockery of our 20 year marriage and the family we made.

So if you think you've got the stomach for it, keep it up. Let him cocklodge until he's found himself another shag.

Or do something else.

debtherat Thu 14-Feb-13 22:39:29

Hoping for a valentine .... But nothing , although thanks for his and my 2 ds loved theirs. Am I not worth it? Why is he here?
Seems interested in sex but won't talk - does his head in! He's been to relate but it's private. Says I should go and then decide if worth going together- my decision not his - feels like he's giving all work to me (bit like child care and housework). I want honesty, openness - he should be doing much more to reassure me. I am back on his case with iPhone (constant companion) tomorrow. Hope you all got lots of love today!

izzyizin Thu 14-Feb-13 22:49:47

When are you going to face up to the fact that you're not going to get what you want from him while you allow him to stay under the same roof, deb?

Apart from using you as somewhere to park his dick now and again, he's checked out of your relationship and the time is long overdue for you to tell him to check out of your home.

If you do nothing else at least get yourself to a solicitor who specialises in divorce and family law and, if you have any reason to suppose that you are entitled to legal aid, make this a matter of urgency as the rules are changing at the end of March and you may find yourself stuffed if he decamps for the same or another ow which, on present form, would seem to be inevitable.

cjel Thu 14-Feb-13 23:04:08

Best day of my life when I told XDH it wasn't his decision to make. He'd only met her three times but something in me suddenly felt empowered. I'd had 30 yrs of depression and breakdowns, He was away working for a couple of days and I found place to rent. I have taken control of everything, selling house, forming settlement etc etc. It really is the only way to go. Sounds like the only way things will change is if you do it. Please don't fear the unknown, it is fantastic!! I had tears and lonliness but slept like a log from the 1st day I left !!! Please be pro active Make choices that are good for you. Staying together at the moment doesn't sound like a good option for you now.find strength to seperate.

How are things now debtherat?

debtherat Mon 15-Apr-13 05:30:14

Still together ... Comfort of daily routines,trips out with DS but lack of emotional connection still v. hard. We are in such different places. He is remorseful but unable to talk and I am still very upset, intermittently v. angry with him and with OW (she has just fucked off and left me to pick up pieces -would love to give her a piece of my mind). He talks about our future together like what has happened has passed. Tried to get him thinking about things (relate book) but untouched. Was hoping for small gestures - Easter egg, some flowers but no. He is lavishing money on DS - premiership tickets, expensive days out but feel he is holding back from me & I hate, hate, hate his use of technology with a vengeance - it just robs us of communication during waking hours - I know I am here in cyberspace too but as usual sleep evades me. I have aged so much the past 4 months rapid weight loss and insufficient sleep and (horror) hair is thinning! Dawn chorus is starting - need to try and sleep, gather strength for return to school & work.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 15-Apr-13 06:37:04

Oh dear sad

Why is he still under your roof??!

vole3 Mon 15-Apr-13 06:42:42

Deb, sorry to say it, but this situation is doing you no good at all and allows him to assume that should he repeat his actions, there will be no consequences for him.

It is a very male thing to draw a line / box things up and refuse to discuss further. That might be ok if he turned a load of white washing pink with an errant red sock, but not when he betrays you, your relationship and family by his behaviour. His refusal to discuss allows him to ignore the enormity of his actions. His defensive and injured reactions when you justifiably question show he is still more concerned for himself and has no concern for you. Tis all part of the script.

Are you having any counselling, either on your own or as a couple?

What you deserve is for him to commit to you, and which he blatantly is not doing. This does nothing to rebuild the trust, erodes your self-esteem and living with the stress is having its physical effect on you.

If he had shown genuine remorse, openness, gone tech free, allowed you free access to his texts / emails, was going to relate with you and had shown any shred of feeling for what he has put you through, then there might be hope that a new relationship could be built.

Can you tell I have walked this road, along with many others? The thought of life as a single parent was much scarier than the reality. The only difference is I don't spend my time investing in another person who does not invest in me.

Ledkr Mon 15-Apr-13 07:10:59

Oh come on deb! Get a grip. Sorry but would you advise a friend to carry on like this? You are wasting your life and setting a terrible example to your kids (they will know)
Can you seriously say you are happier like this than making a clean break and giving happiness a chance.
I was in a similar situation and for the few days I thought it might work I felt dreadful. As soon as I decided enough was enough I felt bloody terrific.
NB If you'd have kicked him out when all this began you'd be feeling much better now and been on the way to making your new life.
I met the love if my life less than two years after I'd got rid of the cheater I was 39 with 4 kids.
Never say never op.
take some control find your dignity, got to be better than this limbo surely?

CleopatrasAsp Mon 15-Apr-13 07:33:05

Seriously, why have you got such low self-esteem? This is the most depressing thread I've ever read on Mumsnet. You could have chucked this loser out and lost a stone or two in the time that's passed since his revelation. Instead you've mooned around after this fuckwit, washing his pants and letting him have pity sex with you or worse use you for sex because he has no other options. Have some self-respect! What example are you setting your two sons about women and relationships?

JustinBsMum Mon 15-Apr-13 07:41:56

Just want to say (and possibly add to your worries OP) that I came from a dysfunctional family and, really, DCs are aware things aren't right. They know DM is unhappy, they probably worry in bed at night about the future, but until the adults in their lives open up they are alone with their fears.
Imo explain to DCs 'mummy and daddy don't love each other any more and ......' whatever ' but we both will always love you and look after you' .'If you have any questions you want to ask feel free to ask and we will answer as we don't want you to worry'. 'Daddy and mummy are working on sorting out their disagreement and will let you know what we decide'.

I also have to say that your DH sounds hard-hearted and cruel to stand by whilst his DW loses sleep, weight and now hair due to the stress he is causing whilst he leads his selfish life.

And the DCs won't be taken in by being bought stuff - they will be suspicious and more confused.

Sorry, meant to be reasonable and helpful but I am getting so angry at how he behaves, messing up you and dcs.

JustinBsMum Mon 15-Apr-13 07:51:09

Can I also say that you should look into what life would be like on your own by speaking to a solicitor. The fear of life on your own is probably much worse than the reality. Once you know the reality you can make sensible decisions.
I went through a bad patch with DH but after finding on mn that I was entitled to half of everything if we split, despite DCs left home, it changed me from angry and helpless (as I felt I was trapped) to confident and able, cos I knew if the worst happened I'd survive.

We are still together and ok.

sassy34264 Mon 15-Apr-13 14:31:51

Just read this thread in it's entirity for the 1 st time.

God, it was emotional. Mostly anger (at him) and disbelief (at you)

No valentines, no easter egg- and you seem shocked. shock

I don't like to be blunt, but i think you need it.

He doesn't love you. He doesn't even like you. He doesn't even bother to go through the motions with no meaning attached to placate you.

He just doesn't give 2 shits about you. AT. ALL.

When is your birthday? Don't expect anything.

He's probably majorally depressed that he's still stuck with you, when he wanted the excitement of affairs, 1st sex etc.


Wasting your life?
Hoping he will love you again?

Where are you? Can someone not pick your self esteem up and give you a bit of dignity back?

I can't believe you are letting him treat you this way?


It's madness.

sassy34264 Mon 15-Apr-13 14:35:44

Sorry it reads back quite cruel, and i hate that.

But it is meant as a short sharp shock to get you to do something......anything, than just passively go through life.

You are worth more and deserve more. We think so and we don't even know you.

Dahlen Mon 15-Apr-13 15:15:00

I think you're making a huge mistake allowing him to stay. It's entirely up to you and your H whether or not you move past this and save your marriage. But it will never happen if you allow him to stay. He has to face consequences so that the next time he is 'tempted' he immediately considers what he has to lose and stops in his tracks.

As an aside, rapid weight loss and hair loss are fairly indicative of a thyroid problem, as well as stress (although stress can trigger a thyroid problem too), so please get yourself checked out by a Dr as well.

goodenuffmum Mon 15-Apr-13 22:38:10

Deb I didn't post when you started your thread because I was so sure you would kick him out..

I am so sad that a few months down the line you seem stuck physically and emotionally.

My H advised me in October that he didn't love me anymore. I was paralysed and couldn't gather the courage together to kick him out. At that time the only shred of respect I had left prevented me from begging him to stay.

Christmas and New Year was horrendous sad

But something changed in me in January. I don't know if it was the counselling or that I kept reminding myself that he didnt love me (and deep down I knew you can't go back from that)... So at the start of February I gave him to the end of the month to go.

And he did.

It took 4 months, but I got there smile

I had all the fears that you have and do you know what, not 1 of them came true.

It is now 6 weeks since he left and I am on the road to recovery. So are my DC.

I an getting some self respect and learning about boundaries grin

He meanwhile is living with his elderly parents and looks miserable!

99% of my mn replies at the time advised me to kick him out. I know that I would be further on in my recovery if I had done it then, but I had to work with the courage I had at the time and that only ran as far has giving me the dignity to let him go.

Good luck deb

debtherat Sun 02-Jun-13 17:07:25

Time for an update from me probably. The best of all this is that I am now functioning well mainly (although sleep is still often a problem). We are having relationship counselling which is going ok but still feel lot of focus on me - what I was doing wrong in the relationship but time will allow us to explore all of the issues I hope. Had an interesting one to one with relate last week when I raised some other issues noticed more or found out since - my OH's checking out other women in front of me (always younger) and a cheat book friend from overseas who messaged him in our shared email at bank holiday asking about how things were with OW and if he still liked "messing around" with her as well?!!! Had massive argument - he refused to show me any text messages "just chatting, nothing in it" but showed me email to her saying goodbye/unfriended. Says there is nothing else and he wants to behave properly but I need to help him... Basically means be nice to him, don't make him feel too bad - could be code for forgiveness which is hard when I received so much personal criticism from him (messy house, don't spend enough on self, too kind/left wing) - all said in anger and backtracked mainly since but hard to forget such character assassination from someone who was your best friend. And it hurts that this follows the "script".

Bowlersarm Sun 02-Jun-13 17:13:30

Hey deb I wasn't on MN when you originally posted.

My main thoughts are that it is all about him and nothing about you. Don't play second fiddle in all this, and let him run rings around you.

Fight by all means but not at your own expense.

Jengnr Sun 02-Jun-13 17:50:37

Six months Deb. this has been going on for six months.

It's not working, you tried.

Kick him out.

TheOwlService Sun 02-Jun-13 18:06:12

Sounds a bit like flogging a dead horse (sorry).

SnookyPooky Sun 02-Jun-13 20:03:34

Dear God. Depressing reading. So nearly six months on and no better. Deb, if I lived in UK I would be coming round to your house to boot him out myself.

BonaDrag Sun 02-Jun-13 22:47:10

He's fucking you up.

Clayhanger Mon 03-Jun-13 08:05:27

Deb, sorry but this is what the rest of your life will be like. I read this thread through just now in one go and I'm not sure why you are still posting. He won't change, and your passivity and misplaced hopefulness will never force the situation.

I wish you well but you have clearly not listened to anyone on this thread- so please don't be surprised that your H hasn't miraculously changed. This is the way it will be.

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