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Izzyizin,Lueji, Blackcurrants and all DV posters are you there?

(175 Posts)
Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 21:55:00

(old thread springaroundthecorner/Domestic violence, done the right thing now what?)

Sorry I know there are many others who have posted great support but have just choosen names that I have seen on the board recently.

Really asking for support. I went to the "appeal" today and it turns out to be full fucking new crown court trial. I was in Witness box for 2 hours plus 1 hour lunch break. I was called a liar about 50 times and I am in total shock.

It is not even over. It will continue tomorrow but I am done (In every sense.) It was so bad that the Witness Support lady said she would be reporting it to her manager and had never seen the like of it in a DV case before. I am not sure I should even be talking about it seeing as it is not over but as not giving details hope it is ok.

The court clerk type person - I know he wasnt and not sure of his title but he sat in and had a clip board and seemed to know a lot about procedure said that the barrister was v senior and that the judge was not stopping him because he would be afraid of procedural complaints.
He said that was actually a good thing as he would have brought it to a swift end for my sake should he feel he was going to have to overturn the original verdict. The CPS barrister was lovely and very kind. He said I had done well. My friend who came said that too but it didnt feel like I had. I got quite angry but they said I came across as decent and honest. I am actually embarassed as when the judge said we were stopping for lunch I said to him I cant do any more and he ignored me of course. He was kind at the end and I said thank you when he said I could go.
Sorry this is not very well written but worn out.

Hi Spring, I remember some of your story and I'm so sorry to hear that they are putting you through the wringer.

It sounds as though you are doing the best you can in a really difficult situation.

I've been through a DV trial and the treatment of victims (or crown witnesses as you become) is shocking.

I just wish you the strength to get through the remainder of this and hope your ex gets what he deserves.


Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:11:30

Thanks Married. I suppose it is over now and I am trying to take that attitude. I dont have to return to the court and all that remains now is to find out the verdict when it is over sometime tomorrow.

My barrister said to regard it as such. He said to go home and try and forget it. God knows long flashbacks will last. It was a long time after the first one and my sleep became appalling and nightmarish.

I do have a lovely GP and called him and he left me out some diazepan. i know it is a cheat to take it but when your heart beats out of your chest and breathing gets hard it does help.

Really appreciate the hugs.

izzyizin Thu 03-Jan-13 22:13:57

Have you finished giving evidence, Spring? Are you expected to attend tomorrow?

freeandhappy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:14:39

How awful for you and well done for being so brave. Keep going. Things will get better soon.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:14:51

No its all over for me. Left about 3pm.

oldfatandtired1 Thu 03-Jan-13 22:16:16

Bump for spring. Appalling situation - bad enough to be going through the divorce thing without this dreadful state of affairs.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:16:33

I wasnt brave at all freeandhappy. I was sobbing all over the witness room. I went through about a roll of kitchen paper. I didnt cry in the court though. sad

izzyizin Thu 03-Jan-13 22:17:43

Xpost. Will reflect on what you've said and post again shortly.

Did you have opportunity to speak with the CPS barrister before commencement? Were you able to tell him/her/anyone that you were told there would be a request for a non-molestation order to be granted when he was found guilty at trial in the Magistrates but that this did not come about?

freeandhappy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:20:01

That was a great thing to keep it together in the witness box. I admire you for getting away from the person who hurt you and trying.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:23:08

Izzy, no I didnt mention or even think of the order. I did get quite a time really with the CPS barrister. I was in totally fucking shock when I discovered it was a whole new trial. I nearly bolted and the time was spent on persuading me I could do it really.

The PC who took my statement also was there this time. She was supportive. Much better than last time AND he kindly came to speak to me afterwards to say well done. He was a very sweet man. Thank god for some decent men. To be verbally bullied by a middle aged grey haired pig like my Ex was excruciating.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:28:10

Sorry when I said he came t o speak to me afterwards meant male barrister not female pc.

HappyNewHissy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:32:49

Sweety, well done. Sounds like you were very brave, and you earned the right to those tears.

I wish you all the best of luck love, I hope justice prevails. See if you can raise the non-mol issue though, as it will help you in future.

Lueji Thu 03-Jan-13 22:38:40

Not much time now, but I've just noticed your thread and wanted to send a hug.
It must have been so tough.
But you seem very strong and I'm sure they are right in that you did well.

Why don't you take some time to yourself and unwind?

I hope it ends in a proper conviction.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:43:27

I will do Hissy. Tbh I dont care that much about the verdict. I have really lost sight of where I am in the pain of the process. I KNOW I did the right thing in reporting it but whether I did the best thing for me is anyone's guess. My friend who came to the other trial too said that after today she is not sure that she would advise anyone to go down this road if this is the way you get treated. The witness care lady agreed and said that this had to stop if they wanted to increase the number of victims coming forward.

We have an excellent female MP in our area and I will seriously consider telling her my story in the next few months.

HappyNewHissy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:49:30

Spring, izzy posted on another thread today about an MP that heads up DV support Services, I'll see if I can find it on the phone and copy it.

I'm considering campaigning for more funding/support/awareness raising. I do have some hefty DV peeps on my Twitter contacts, I might be able to ask them for support, plus my own charity connections. If you need help, I'll help.

HappyNewHissy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:53:33

Here it is:

If anyone one feels moved to bring concern about lack of provision and other issues which affect victims of dv to the attention of 'the authorities', a good place to begin would be to write to Ms Bridget Phillipson MP, House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA tel: 0207 219 7087, who is Secretary of the All-Parliarmentary Party for Domestic Violence which is chaired by Baroness Scotland of Asthal.

Alternatively, check your local constituency MP's website to see if they have a specific interest in DV - and, if not, ask why not as just about every constituency contains a branch of Women's Aid or related projects for victims of abuse.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:55:44

Thanks Hissy that would be wonderful. I am not sure what support I actually need other than being able to talk about it at the moment but I will let you know.

Equally I am determined that I will put something back into this in the future and would volunteer in anyway that would help. My ex would not be able to do this if he were poor. The fact is he can afford it so he is doing it ie paying someone else to abuse my whilst he sits and listens.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 22:56:36

Cross posted. I will write to her.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 03-Jan-13 23:03:30

Hello there springy

I am no expert on court proceedings but BOY I admire you so much

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 23:07:26

God AF, you wouldnt have if you had seen me today. I was literally whining like someone who was attached to a bungee cord and was refusing to jump. Thats how it felt because I had done it once and I couldnt envisage doing it again. Everyone was basically saying you can do it, you wont actually die will you?!

izzyizin Thu 03-Jan-13 23:08:17

The All-Parliamentary Pary on DV & Sexual Abuse doesn't feed into any support service nor does it have any teeth power as such, Hissy.

What it is is a talking shop form of think tank that can table questions in either House and, in some respects, gather information more speedily than individual MPs.

oldfatandtired1 Thu 03-Jan-13 23:11:14

AF - the courage Spring has shown throughout her ordeal is incredible. Divorce proceedings are bad enough without her ongoing DV history.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 03-Jan-13 23:13:38

I don't care are am inspiration. It doesn't matter what the outcome is now

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 23:16:09

The thing I would ask for is that victims should be fully informed of court process. If I had know he had appealed (the appeal had to be lodged 21 days after the first trial) I wouldnt have had such a shock. I believed I was walking away from it in a straight line only to discover that I had been walking in a circle straight back into it.

Also no one told me it was a whole new trial until today. i was told it was an appeal and much shorter. Ha bloody ha...

Finally rich middle aged professional abusers are treated more leniently by rich middle aged judges as well as being able to afford fucking re trials and a good go at the ex again. He knew from the divorce papers I had been suffering from PTSD as a result of the first trial and I believe it was an opportunity to twist the knife.

Springhasarrived Thu 03-Jan-13 23:18:33

Thanks AF and OFT. I now feel better enough that I am going to go to bed. I didnt think sleep would come tonight. Luckily doing a late shift tomorrow so have the morning to compose myself.

Night x

mcmooncup Thu 03-Jan-13 23:18:45

"The fact is he can afford it so he is doing it ie paying someone else to abuse my whilst he sits and listens."

That really is the pits. For all those people pocketing that money, I hope they never sleep at night.

You sound like you did GREAT.

You also sound like you would be a great help for other women going through this. All power smile

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 03-Jan-13 23:19:20

Take care springy

oldfatandtired1 Thu 03-Jan-13 23:23:59

Spring - he may be able to 'afford' it but he's not above the law. Sleep as well as you can. x

olgaga Thu 03-Jan-13 23:24:40

Spring, well done for coming through such a terrible experience with such strength, determination and dignity.

You might want to get in touch with Rights of Women - they would also be interested to hear about your experience.

Second the suggestion to also contact Bridget Philipson MP. Even if she can't do an awful lot for you, it's good for an MP with her interest to hear first-hand accounts of how women are treated by the courts.

I would also write to your local MP.

It's a bloody outrage how women are treated in the courts, whether in relation to violence or abuse or child contact.

This is a really good report by Rights of Women if you are interested in this subject - makes your heart bleed. And your blood boil.

izzyizin Thu 03-Jan-13 23:31:19

In case anyone doesn't see the point such a body, I should have added when an All-Party Committee makes recommendations, they tend to be listened to and acted upon with more alacrity than most.

A minimum of 20 MPs are required before an all-party committee (of which there are many covering a wide-ranging number of subjects) can be formed and each brings their views/opinions based on their own observations/experience together with those of their constituents to the table.

Making an all-party committee aware of anomalies/deficiencies/inadequacies in, for example, the law or service provision by a government organisation, can be more effective than writing solely to, again for example, the Home Office.

For this reason, I would suggest anyone seeking to make a complaint against a government agency or wishing to suggest ways of improviing any aspect of the agency's service, should ascertain whether there is a relevant All-Party committee and, if so, copy all correspondence to that body as well as to their constituency MP.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 03-Jan-13 23:33:47

I am so happy to see people with relevant knowledge on your thread springy

You take this as far as you feel able to x

Anniegetyourgun Thu 03-Jan-13 23:40:05

Do you realise that was really, really, really brave? To feel that much fear and emotional exhaustion but still to do what had to be done. That is the very definition of courage.

freeandhappy Thu 03-Jan-13 23:50:01

I agree Annie. No PTSD this time springy. Just feel proud of yourself.

Allalonenow Fri 04-Jan-13 00:00:46

Hello Spring,
I'm so sorry to read what a dreadful experience you have had to go through today, your courage must have lit up that court room like a beacon.

I hope you get some some rest tonight, and that you can find some solace in knowing that you did the right thing, even though it was at such great emotional cost to you.

Sending you all my best wishes.

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 07:15:14

I refer to this update from you on your previous thread 'Just to let you know that I have had some really good professional advice recently and it has helped enormously. I've been told that most Appeals of this type that succeed because the witnesses fail to turn up because no one has informed them that the Appeal is taking place and they find out afterwards',

From the above, and with particular reference to Appeals succeeding because original witnesses fail to appear, I erroneously assumed you had been made aware that an Appeal against a verdict handed down in the Magistrates Court can effectively take the form of a retrial in the Crown Court, albeit without a jury.

Needless to say, I'm appalled that you duly arrived at Court yesterday to discover what Witness Support, the CPS, and/or the police should have told you weeks/months ago, namely, that you would be required to give evidence again.

It would seem, from what you've said, that you came through with flying colours and, irrespective of the outcome, you have every reason to be immensely proud of yourself, honey.

Thanks to the twunt's ability to fund hefty legal costs machinations, you've endured TWO trials of ordeal in the Criminal Courts and you can rest content that, throughout, your courage has been unflinching.

Without having been present (not that attendance in itself is any guarantee of accuracy) it's not possible to predict the outcome of his Appeal. However, if a Judge is of similar opinion to that of the Magistrates, it is within his/her remit to increase the sentence that was handed down by the lesser Court if s/he sees fit.

If he loses his gamble Appeal, he may find he incurs a more fitting harsher sentence than that peviously meted out to him and I've certainly got my extremities crossed that justice in this matter is finally seen to be done.

With this in mind, I would urge you to endeavour to make contact with the CPS barrister before the Court reconvenes this morning and ask that, if the Magistrates verdict is upheld, application is made for a non-molestation Order to protect you from the twunt's inevitable ire as per previous assurances you were given.

Please try not to stress too much today about what the verdict may be, Spring, and be prepared for the possibility that judgement may be reserved to a later date.

How incredibly brave of you. And thank goodness it is now over.

oldfatandtired1 Fri 04-Jan-13 08:08:35

Wishing you all the best for today, Spring.

oldfatandtired1 Fri 04-Jan-13 19:20:30

I have just heard from Spring. He got off. . . sad Spring's cousin and his wife are looking after her.

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 19:33:33

Oh no sad Fuck, shit, crap. That fucking cunt got off? Shite. Omigod. Poor, poor, Spring - my heart goes out to her. Jeez, this is unbelieveable. Do the CPS intend to appeal - because they fucking should.

Please give Spring my love, tired. I've thought about her all day and I am truly horrified at this most unwelcome news.

Also please tell her if there's anything I can do, she's got it. And that maybe there is something we can do to make sure her experience doesn't happen to others.


AnyFucker Fri 04-Jan-13 19:34:41

Oh fuck.

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

it doesn't change what he did though. Springy knows, and he knows. That is all that matters at the end of the day. If you are still in contact please give her my love and admiration.

oldfatandtired1 Fri 04-Jan-13 19:37:36

Me too, izzy. I truly thought she had nothing to worry about. . . They have gone for pizza and are happy to be doing something normal. She has been a huge support to me over the past year and this is just dreadful.

AlistairSim Fri 04-Jan-13 20:00:46


I am so angry for you,spring but still think you are incredibly brave.

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 20:01:32

AF's absolutely spot on. Spring knows the truth - and so do we.

And we will find a way to make that truth a shining beacon of hope and encouragement for others who, through no fault of their own, are faced with similar ordeals to that which Spring has endured with such fortitude.

oldfatandtired1 Fri 04-Jan-13 20:01:50

Sorry for the self-indulgence - izzy your description of him does not begin to do him justice. I hope and pray he gets what he deserves at the divorce hearing later this year.

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 20:13:21

It makes me want to reach for a Colt irks me more than anything that this odious despicable lying piece of gobshite will be on a roll and think he's invincible.

Omigod. If it's unbearable for me to think of the smirk on his face, christ knows how Spring's coping with that thought.

I want to hurt him sooooo bad. I am not easily provoked to thoughts of violence, let alone the act, but it would give me so much pleasure to put his teeny tiny balls in a vice and tighten it ever so slowly until his pips squeak.

<goes in search of strong drink>

TimidLivid Fri 04-Jan-13 20:23:33

I have read your threads from the start springy. it is awful if he got off with it. I don't know how it is even possilbe. I hope after you get over all this again you live well and thrive, you are so brave.

HappyNewHissy Fri 04-Jan-13 20:27:50

If I can be of any help, goes without saying... count me in I have a spade

ILikeWhisperingToo Fri 04-Jan-13 20:39:05

Just wanted to add my admiration for you. So very sorry things have gone so wrong. sad
Wishing you strength.

mcmooncup Fri 04-Jan-13 20:55:12

So disgusting, disheartening, unfair, stereotyped and fucking horrible.

But as AF says...... you know what happened. The truth can be hidden, distorted and denied from others, but you both know. He is the one who will actually have long term mental health issues with this, the one who may now behave like this again and find himself in the same old mess in a few years time. The only thing to be thankful of is that he won't have learned a damned thing from this whole process, he will continue to 'be what he is', he is in total denial about what sort of person he is, and his life and mind will continue to be utterly fucked, his relationships living on a knife's edge, and I promise he won't be happy despite what he may appear to show you.

As for you, you tried your best, told the truth and you did the right thing. People die for their integrity in some cases, I'm not saying that is good, but I'd rather be honest and truthful and be criticised for that, than the other way round. You have the real chance to be happy again away from this person knowing you had the courage and integrity to stand up to him. And he knows that too, it doesn't matter that you 'lost' smile

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 21:03:40

You didn't 'lose', Spring. He did. He lost his soul in a Court of Law and, albeit that a grave injustice has been done to you, there is some justice in that.

AnyFucker Fri 04-Jan-13 21:10:37

The only way springy would have "lost" is if she was still with this abuser.

Lueji Fri 04-Jan-13 21:58:50

Exactly what AF said.

The law is a difficult beast because it depends on evidence and presumption of innocence.

What matters is that you got away from him. His control ended and you are (about to be) free from him.

Keep up your strength.

HappyNewHissy Fri 04-Jan-13 22:39:45

“The only way springy would have "lost" is if she was still with this abuser

oh god yes, this!

We always win in the end, they can't control our thoughts, our happiness, our true friends, our hopes or dreams. Not when we're free...

Fuck him. We all know what he is, and so does he, deep down.

He'll always be a loser.

izzyizin Fri 04-Jan-13 22:47:04

He was convicted on the evidence presented to the Magistrates Court and has now been presumed innocent by the same evidence being presented to a Crown Court of Appeal?

Mmm. I wonder.

It seems to me that his conviction may have been overturned for another reason entirely and IMO Springy should obtain a copy of the Judgement at the earliest opportunity.

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 00:27:19

Well I'm still here...Big thanks to OFT for posting when I couldnt but I wanted to let you know. Tears are streaming down my face now at all your kind words as well as the shared anger. It is particularly good feeling the shared anger. The system fucking stinks.

I've got to find some way of getting through this and going out and having a pizza was first step in the healing process. Just to feel like just another normal person out socialising on a Friday night was good.

There has to been some good to come out of this for me hasnt there? It is somehow got to be turned into something positive. How do I do this?

AnyFucker Sat 05-Jan-13 00:36:00

Are you a campaigning type, springy ? Could you start with a stiffly-worded letter to your MP ?

izzyizin Sat 05-Jan-13 00:45:20

Honey, when the good comes for you it is going to take the form of an prolonged shower of abundance raining down on you. .

The first step is to obtain a transcript of the Judgement which should be in the possession of the CPS within the next week or so. Once we know the ground(s) on which the Appeal was upheld, we'll be able to start turning this apparent negative into a big, fat, POSITIVE.

In the meantime keep munching those pizzas and, with each mouthful, remind yourself that you are, indeed, just another normal person getting on with your life and learning and growing from all of the negative and positive experienes that come your way.

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 00:55:05

Yes, I have been to write the odd letter and go on the odd march in my time.

WTF do I want to say though, and WTF do I want her to try and change?

One small thing would be to make it the law that victims have to be informed as soon as appeals are lodged. Everything is weighed towards the abuser not the victim.

God I am so relieved to have other adults in the house tonight...

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 00:56:50

Izzy could I end up feeling worse because the judge just thought I was a liar as his barrister made out?

AnyFucker Sat 05-Jan-13 01:03:32

Spring, take some time out, love.

When you are feeling stronger, start looking around for movements that object to the way women are disadvantaged wrt how they are treated by the Justice System when they try and make men acknowledge their bad treatment of them. The whole thing is massively biased towards only have to look at the abysmal conviction rates for sexual assault, rape and proving male on female domestic violence.

If you are a feminist, there is much out there.

FayeKorgasm Sat 05-Jan-13 01:17:39

Spring I don't feel i can add more, you have already received advice from other more knowledgeable posters than me,but having read your thread all I can say is that you are an inspiration.

I have been through something similar and there is a bright future waiting for you. Hold your head up and be brilliant.

izzyizin Sat 05-Jan-13 01:55:25

That's a pertinent question, Spring, and on balance I incline to the view that the answer is 'no' and that viewing the transcript is not going to make you feel any worse than you did at the time you were told he'd won his Appeal.

However, were you fire off complaints to your MP or suchlike, and were they to take the matter seriously enough to obtain a copy of the transcript, and should this document imply that your evidence was unreliable, IMO you would feel infinitely worse than when you received the unwelcome news.

But, for reasons that I'm too tired to set out at this late/early hour, I very much doubt that, in the unlikely event your evidence has been deemed less than convincing, the transcript will baldly state that Mr Fucking-Twunt's Appeal is upheld is because the wonderfully courageous woman we know you to be his fragrant dw lied through her teeth.

Get some good zzzz's tonight, honey, and we'll resume tomorrow but please bear in mind there's no rush to formulate a cunning plan complaint or any other course of action at the present time.

izzyizin Sat 05-Jan-13 02:30:39

While they're in my disorganised mind, here are 2 additional thoughts:

1. It occurs to me that unless you have copy of the transcript you will be unable to refute anything the fuckingtwuntshitfacegobsite may say about it - and we can confidently put money on him crowing <aims Colt at fuckingtwuntshitfacegobsite's teeny tiny bolleaux>

2. Think tortoise and hare...

HillaryClitoris Sat 05-Jan-13 04:20:37

To Spring,

I am sorry that you have had to go through this, you will get through, you have support, take care, counselling and the love you obviously have.

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 07:45:31

At the moment I do not have the strength to go looking for transcripts from the court.

Also I dont actually care what Twunt says. He did it and every knows he did because he is an agressive arsehole to everyone these days. He doesnt have any friends and OW is the same. I havent communicated with him since this day last year and my children are the same bar the odd incident. He confessed he did it to my daughter.

If he tries to contact me about this I will report him for harassment. His only available line of communication with me is email. I have a new email address and I keep the old one just so that he can email me if anything to do with property we still own together needs to be discussed. He knows I have a new email address and I have refused to give it to him. Once the divorce is finalised I will remove the address he uses from my phone and that will be the end of that.

Twunt might have got off but seeing as he got such a derisory punishment in the first place nothing has changed for him just as nothing has changed for me. He just paid a lot of money to get off but he was convicted in the first place, My friend who came with me says mud sticks. Anyone who doesnt believe me is not worth caring about.

Finally he wont be celebrating too hard when the bill lands on his door mat willl he??

izzyizin Sat 05-Jan-13 08:39:35

Forgive me - of course you don't have any strength at the moment and I apologise for having been premature in making suggestions that would more properly have been best left to a later date should you have expressed an interest in registering a formal complaint at the deplorable way in which you have been treated.

Unfortunately, I got somewhat carried away by the desire to bring the twunt to his knees this matter to the attention of those that are in a position to review current procedure in order to further the ongoing battle to ensure that, as been the case here and as it is for so many, victims of dv are not further victimised by the justice system that should serve to protect them.

As it is, you've rapidly reached conclusions that are as measured as they are accurate. The best revenge is to live well and I have no doubt you have already achieved this, and will continue to do so.

With regard to the cost of this farce, I sincerely hope the twunt's legal bills in no way diminish the funds that are made available in respect of your eventual divorce settlement.

ILikeWhisperingToo Sat 05-Jan-13 11:31:30

If possible, you have just gone up in my esteem smile
Your posts above are showing such clarity in the face of this bastarding bastard adversity.
You are a credit to your DC, I imagine you feel wrung out but - honestly - your strength shines through. thanks for you

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 14:40:25

Thanks for the above posts. I had another little tear when I read them.

Today's issue is my 17 yo ds who was only 15 when the assault took place. I havent kept him informed as I wanted to protect him and he now is angry and frustrated that he was not given an opportunity to contribute to my case. I am not sure he could have and not convinced it would have been appropriate but the time has passed so no going back in any case. He is such a mature and sensitive young man that I am bursting with pride. I hate to see him so sad and distressed.

He reminded me of an incident which took place 2 years ago when I laughed at Twunt for a reason that any normal person who join in and laugh too, but Twunts response was to grab me by the collar of my coat and shake me and tell me not to ever laugh at him. He did this right in front of ds who had also laughed too because it was funny!!

He has made me promise I will tell him everything in the future and I have. There is nothing more I can do. So glad he is back at school on Monday for the distraction.

izzyizin Sat 05-Jan-13 14:59:11

Once this weekend's over and your ds is back at school, the lake will become calm and you'll soon be gliding effortlessly over it again.

Your ds's anger and frustration is understandable, as is your desire to shield him from the complexities of adult life that he'll be facing all too soon, and it's endearing that he's so protective of you.

Ultimately this can only strengthen your bond and, overall, I'd say this is another lose-lose situation for the twunt.

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 18:03:35

I love the idea of a calm lake.

It has been great today to have company all day. It has stopped me brooding. I think I am going to have to ask for further help from friends to visit me over the next few weekends. I actually slept all night and I usually wake about 4 am and that's me for the night. Feeling safe perhaps?

The Dc's are lost to twunt forever now over this.

AnyFucker Sat 05-Jan-13 20:49:37

spring, you have much love and esteem coming your way from several directions

you know twunt knows and yes, he will pay mucho for his 15 minutes of "fame"

the stupid twat

you, however, will serenely glide on while all the time his webbed feet are paddling like fuck beneath the surface

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 21:53:02

I saw him this afternoon. He didnt see me. I didnt even feel sick. Well, he is quite revolting but at least I was not sick with fear. He is a thoroughly vacuous excuse for a human being.

I really am taking great strength from everyone's words of support.

Allalonenow Sat 05-Jan-13 22:33:52

Dear Spring,
I can't believe that you have had to face such an unjust outcome; my heart goes out to you.
I don't have any advice, as I have never been in your difficult situation, but I hope you now focus on getting the very best financial outcome for yourself and your children, and that you fight for that with no holds barred.
Sending you strength and fortitude.

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 22:48:02

Thanks Allalonenow. I will most certainly fight on for finances.

Long story but as you can imagine Twunt is pulling every lying trick in the book himself over them. Next court session on finances is June. Its a long road but I have very good lawyers onto it. I hope the long delay gives me strength. I've got to get luck on my side sometime and I could do with that being the time. I can see myself posting about this for a long time to come.

AnyFucker Sat 05-Jan-13 22:51:36

and we will be here

LittleBoSqueak Sat 05-Jan-13 23:04:07

This is exactly what i was trying to say in the post about dh aggression to dd on this board.

My experience in family court was devastating yet on these boards there seems to be a massive assumption that you can keep your child away from ex's that have behaved in this way (DV). This is not the case. Family courts position is as 'untaimedlioness' posted in another thread:

" it is damaging to children not to know where they come from - this has been shown in psychological studies and the point of contact is for the child's right to know their background and to have a relationship with both their biological parents, regardless of what he has done.

The general principle in all cases of separation is to always allow contact unless the damage resulting from contact is worse than the emotional/psychological damage caused by the child not knowing their roots. SS (and probably Cafcass) will argue that any dangers will be limited in a supervised environment. It's very rare for biological fathers not to get contact at all if it went to court - though you could refuse to comply.

slambang Sat 05-Jan-13 23:04:42

Dear Spring
As a total stranger to you I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you on behalf of all the women who may find themselves in similar situations at the hands of similar bastards. You have taken a stand for what is right and perhaps one day, if enough women are as brave as you, the system will have to improve. Without brave women like you, nothing will change.

Springhasarrived Sat 05-Jan-13 23:27:33

Slambang, yes I will hold onto that thought. My main problem at the moment is the feeling of not being believed. It is a difficult thing to deal with and something I have worked on a lot in my counselling. It goes back to childhood and school.

What I have to hang on to is that the police believed me, the CPS barrister believed me and so did all the kind court staff. I am certain they did. I have to keep reminding myself of that.

I believe it is a feminist and class issue. Those who had the "starring roles" in making their minds up were all fucking male middle aged professional twunts ie same as the Twunt with a capital T. They really do think they are something special, in their own self congratuatory little wanky world and equality of treatment is a very long way off. If my Ex were a low earning mannual worker he would neither have been able to afford the appeal nor be regarded with such chummy equality by the fucking judge. The way he was having smiley exchanges with the barrister was quite shocking.

AnyFucker Sat 05-Jan-13 23:36:22

I believe you, springy

Allalonenow Sun 06-Jan-13 01:35:26

Dear Spring,
I know exactly what you mean about the wanky little world. When I got divorced in the early 1980s, I remember, as though it were yesterday, how my husband's barrister and the judge seemed to be in kahoots, it was as though the barrister was pulling the judge's strings.

I was on legal aid, so my solicitor was not even in court, never mind me having a barrister, but the judge and the barrister were clearly chums, members of the same clubs with the same old school ties. Dreadful to see that in over thirty years absolutely nothing has changed.

Since then I have always represented myself in my few legal dealings. I am not suggesting that you do this, because your case is very complex, but I would advise you to read up as much as you can about procedures, time deadlines for submissions, and do not trust your solicitor to do all the work you expect them to.

And, oh yes Spring, I believe you.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Sun 06-Jan-13 02:01:57

I believe you. Sooner or later this man will get what he deserves.

Spring I have read this all infuriating last ten minutes while BFing DS and I have big wobbly tears all over him because of how brave you have been, how you got o badly treated, how unfair this all is, and what a good job you have done raising your lovely DCs and how I hope my DSes and up like your lovely DS. . .
(happily DS2 is only 10 days old and has slept through my whole palaver . But I am so furious for you. And, as has already been said, you are inspirational to me, absolutely. I can't bear that this has happened to you but the way you were so terrified and did it anyway- that is so bloody brave I can't even begin to say how much I admire you.)

If there's anything I can do . . and of course I Believe You.

mcmooncup Sun 06-Jan-13 09:56:33

I believe you Spring.

Springhasarrived Sun 06-Jan-13 20:30:10

I am so grateful for this support. It is truely helping me to come to terms with this very much quicker than I anticipated. My company has now departed and I still feel calm so far.

Blackcurrants, I hate to think of you crying over your BFing DS on my part and I am sure he will grow up to be a lovely sensitive young man with such a caring mum.

A little story for you about my DS which you have reminded me of. Whilst I was pregnant with him I was doing a counselling course which ended just before he was born. I was invited along with others on the course to continue our journey with group therapy sessions. I said I would love to but would be BFing by then and it would be a bit disturbing to the group. They insisted it wouldnt be so we both went along. It was a wonderful experience and I draw on things from those evenings still. DS never made a peep ever whilst he was there and I swear some of it rubbed off on him. He has always been the most peaceful child.

olgaga Sun 06-Jan-13 20:32:01

Spring I am so sorry. When you feel a bit better, I would urge you to call Rights of Women and discuss your case with them.

Give yourself a bit of space. You know what he's done, your son knows what he's done, and he knows what he's done. No decision of the court can alter that.

olgaga Sun 06-Jan-13 20:35:13

Also, when you are ready, if you would like to PM me with an outline of your experience I would be happy to draft something for you if you wanted to take it further.

Springhasarrived Sun 06-Jan-13 20:42:25

I will definitely take you up on that Olgaga. Thank you.

DameFannyGallopsBEHINDyou Sun 06-Jan-13 20:45:07

Nothing helpful to say, but I followed your other thread and I think you're absolutely amazing. thanks

WhatDoesTheDogSay Sun 06-Jan-13 20:53:15

Spring, what an ordeal. The whole thing is completely sickening. Just wanted to say that you sound amazing.

spring oh don't feel bad for me, I have a newborn and I weep all the time hmm
I just . . . yeah, I feel so much all at once about this. . and mainly it manifests as: nothing removes the truth of what happened, and how amazing you are. thanks

AnyFucker Mon 07-Jan-13 01:25:08

Congrats on baby, BC

Does he have a purple babygro ? smile

thanks AF- and no, shockingly he does not! he's a delicious chubber who'd make an excellent Ribena berry though, I must see what I can find that's the appropriate shade!

apologies for inane witterings hijack smile

ThinkAboutItOnBoxingDay Mon 07-Jan-13 03:25:30

I hardly ever post in relationships as i don't feel i have the experience.
I just wanted to add to all the comments about how brave you are and how unjust it all sounds. I too am shocked by what a cosy little stitch up it sounds like. But i suppose i shouldn't be given the statistics on things like rape conviction. Our 'justice' System clearly has a baked in misogyny.

And don't forget to add to your list of who believes you the judge from the original trial. You've told your story to two judges, one believed you, the other sided with his mate.

Springhasarrived Mon 07-Jan-13 08:26:53

That is so true and I hadnt thought about that!

The first trial took place when I was relatively "fresh" to it when I knew it was coming up in the future albeit 6 months after the event. The second trial was 13 months after the event and when I had spent months putting it behind me because I thought it was!

Something that has dawned on me overnight is that Twunt and his divorce solicitor deliberately misled me at the point where they knew an appeal was taking place and I did not. One of his foul (and this is a "Resolutions" solicitor!) letters said something like "the case is effectively over, so it is inappropriate and unhelpful for your client to be summoning the police to intervene" when he had been intimidating me when on his conditional discharge. My solicitor had to point out that hello he had been found guilty and I had every right to protect myself when being threatened!

I now realise that firstly they would hope I would not turn up to the Appeal because I didnt know about it and secondly that I would not have as good a recollection of the event. I was set up.

Had a terrible nights excuse for a sleep. I think it was because my visitors were gone. I woke every two hourly.sad

Springhasarrived Mon 07-Jan-13 21:41:30

Having awful flashbacks this evening about what was said to me. Not sure how to clear it out of my head other than time...

ThinkAboutItOnBoxingDay Mon 07-Jan-13 22:13:18

I can only suggest distraction. Although sometimes i think it helps to let it run when you have stuff you'd rather not face. Just let it go for once, you may need to process it rather than bottle it up. But i know you said you have a counsellor so i'm sure you have some better techniques for dealing with stuff from them.

Maybe go through each thing and evaluate it as dispassionately as you can. E.g. They said x, that is a lie because a,b,c... Be sure in yourself and know that what happened in court was not a reflection of truth.

Springhasarrived Mon 07-Jan-13 22:34:16

Hmm, I went to counselling today and for the first time ever I felt it was almost too much for her. I keep being told I am resilient and its beginning to irritate me. I have no idea why

Distraction is the key to it all for certain. Its so hard to find distractions on these horrible dark winter evenings. There isnt even much on the telly and I am still finding reading very hard as I cant concentrate.

AnyFucker Mon 07-Jan-13 23:23:33

Time will help, spring. I know it's a cliche, but at the root of every cliche is a kernel of truth.

Lueji Tue 08-Jan-13 00:00:58

I suspect you are being irritated by the resilience comment because people are expecting you to be strong, instead of offering a shoulder to cry on.

It seems dismissive of our feelings of powerlessness.

Sometimes we need to be vulnerable and embrace it for a while.

Amazoniancracker Tue 08-Jan-13 00:29:49

Fucking bastard men, siding with each other and covering up for each others' pitiful inadequacies.

Stupid dumb waste of space men who think they're oh so damn important they can shift Lady Justice on her axis and twist her anywhichway they feckin like, just to suit themselves and their bloody club sodas.

Stupid bastard men who can lie, thieve, cheat, deceive, belt, abandon and generally not even put the fucking bins out.

Wankerish men who still haunt every crevice of our court-rooms. Smirking like devils.

Thick men. Who think they're clever.
Stink-bomb men. Who think women fancy them.
Men who can't be bothered. Full stop. But still expect sex.

Men who pretend they can be bothered, just to get sex.

Pass the beer nuts.

Keep going Spring

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 06:18:18

Lueji, that is a very accurate observation about the resilient comment. In RL people seem to be at a loss as to what to say, and they dont seem to be asangry like everyone on here. grin. What I want is for them either to be angry with me or help me to take my mind of it....No, I am not resilient, I am just keeping going because there is no alternative.

Brilliant, Amazonian. I would copy that and pin it up in my kitchen if it wasnt for DS grin

HappyNewHissy Tue 08-Jan-13 10:43:58

Sadly, You don't get unfettered sympathy for DV, it casts a pall somehow, but what it also does is show up who are good people, and who are not.

It's a great exercise in clearing out acquaintances.

Not all men are as Amazonian says. Only very sad, tragic and insecure ones. 1 in 4 women experience DV in their lives, which means that 3 in 4 don't.

I have a DS, if I wrote all men off, I'd have to write him off too. I won't, he's lovely, caring and kind. 2 years on from Ex going, I have a boyfriend. He was in an abusive relationship too. He's kind, caring, sensitive.

3 in 4 men DON'T think like your ex. In time, you'll see. Your DS isn't your Ex. You know this! smile

If you lose hope for a normal, full and unfettered future, your Ex kind of wins. We can't have that happening! As smug as he is, you can be smugger, cos you know he did it' and you know not guilty is not the same as innocent.

You're still dazed from the recent events, and that is totally understandable, you do need to be kind to yourself, allow yourself to be angry, to be sad, to rage. All of these are vital to your recovery.

Atm you won't be able to just dust yourself off and get on with things, and you will need to remind yourself of that, so that you don't berate yourself for any perceived failings.

Just focus on the basics for now, the bare minimum routine, anything above that is a bonus.

In time you'll be able to do more and more.

All I say is don't rule anything out of your future life. Put the possibility of all good things out on the table, and like the boxing day buffet, you might just get round to it, when you feel you have room!

You will get through this, the truth is yours. Screw everyone who isn't 100% there for you.

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 16:02:09

On top of this of course I have the divorce stuff going on. That would make a whole new thread on its own, and it is just as lying, vindictive and unjust. Someone said to me today that he is putting his entire life, energy and money into trying to destroy me.

I agree about clearing out the friends. I have gathered more than I have cast off so that is all good and yes screw the ones who arent there for me.

Dazed it the right word. I feel as dazed as when it first happened. I've been into town and I feel like everyone is looking at me which is crazy. I used to feel I had a big sign with "alone" plastered across my face. I am incredibly angry that my recovery as been so damaged by the words of that barrister. I had just had my second Christmas and thoroughly enjoyed. I was nearly healed. I was happy and content being alone and now I am scared again.

I know all men arent bad Hissy. You are lucky to have found someone. I have a lovely man as part of my life but I never see him as he lives abroad. However we talk on the phone all the time. We've known each other for ever and have always been friends. He is divorcing too and we have the opportunity to talk for hours to support each other. I dont talk much about the assault to him as he finds it so difficult to understand. It doesnt bother me as it great to be able to talk about the future and moving forward with someone going through the same process. My father is an incredibly good man too.

Whilst writing this I fell asleep for a short while sitting up in the chair which the words about being kind to myself very pertient!.

As ever all this support in hugely appreciated x

I don't have all the wisdom and experience of other posters here, spring , but I think you are finding your own wisdom regarding taking care of yourself , which is good because you are so worthy of care and love.
Regarding flashbacks and sleep have you tried anything like guided visualization or hypnosis cds? I used my hypnobirthing tracks for years after DS 1 was born because they were so relaxing when I couldn't sleep. might there be some Cathay would do a visualization of you being in a safe place where you can let go and rest or something? apologies if this is a daft suggestion- just trying to think of options to get you through the next week or two, as I am sure that time will do most of the healing.

HappyNewHissy Tue 08-Jan-13 17:56:25

Springy, my man is lucky to have found me! wink grin

The long distance guy is in your life for a reason, he's there to teach you something, i.e. that men are not all bad, that you can talk to them as equals.

In future there will be other people for you to learn from, and then move on. Don't try to hang on to anyone, as what comes after them is much better.

You are not alone love, very far from it....


My DS hit his head a week ago, took a while for him to recover, only now in the last few days am I seeing him back to being himself again.

You have had a blow, a great big traumatic whack, one you weren't expecting. So you are dazed. You know it and accept it, but it will pass. Know that anyone would feel the same. By understanding this and being kind to yourself in every way that you can, the feeling of being out of step will ease and you will get back to where you were.

The more evil your Ex does, the more obvious it will be to all and sundry that you were right and he was wrong. Let his own deeds be the noose he hangs himself with.

AnyFucker Tue 08-Jan-13 18:00:02

Hissy is right. Give 'em enough rope...

AnyFucker Tue 08-Jan-13 18:00:23

Hissy is right. Give 'em enough rope...

AnyFucker Tue 08-Jan-13 18:00:38


LilyontheLeaf Tue 08-Jan-13 18:40:10

Dear Springy,

I have been a lurker on MN for a long time, but never felt compelled to post before.

I am a criminal barrister who prosecutes and defends in cases involving domestic violence in the magistrates and crown courts.

Just a couple of things:
1) By turning up at two trial dates, you are braver than 70% of domestic violence complainants. MOST people simply aren't prepared to go through with it. You were. Be proud.

2) It is disgusting that you were not told that the crown court appeal would be a full re-hearing. I will certainly raise that with witness care in my area. You should be fully informed.

3) By acquitting your ex, the judge was not necessarily saying that he did not believe you. Remember - the Judge has to be SURE he is guilty. Not that he is very probably guilty, but sure of his guilt.

I obviously cannot speak to your circumstances, but in many cases of DV the case simply boils down to one persons word against another. Defendants are acquitted not because the complainant is not believed, but because the tribunal simply cannot be sure.

4)The defence barrister had not right to hector you and bully you. The Judge should have put a stop to that. However, when you are defending, you are duty bound to put your client's instructions. If your client says "she's lying", you must put that to the witness.

It is to give the witness a chance to answer any allegations the defendant may put in their evidence in advance. So by accusing you of lying, the barrister was doing his job. I have accused many people of lying, when privately I am sure they are telling the truth.

However, he should have treated you with respect and courtesy and I am sorry he didn't.

I have to be careful not to reveal my identity - my name is not actually Lily! If there is anything particular I can help with, please feel free to ask. xx

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 18:53:22

You are all so bloody wise!! This is tremendous stuff.

Blackcurrants, on my drive home today I remembered that I heard a short talk in the summer from a hypnotist. It was pure chance that I heard it and she really impressed me as she was also a qualified psychiatrist. Her ideas were impressive. I thought at the time I wished I had known about her when Twunt first departed and I was in such a bad place with sleep and stress. Have ready your post I am now certain I want an appointment. I agree it is the next week or two that will be crucial.

Hissy, your man is indeed very lucky! grin.Poor DS though. Hope he is fully recovered soon.

I understand totally what you mean about long distance guy being there to teach me something, as well as not hanging on when its time to move on and it is brilliant to have it pointed out. He has already taught me that I am not lonely. He is lonely and I dont feel the same. I was VERY lonely in my shit marriage though.

Wasnt there an album called Give Em Enough Rope AF? grin I was a massive fan of the Clash!

ILikeWhisperingToo Tue 08-Jan-13 18:53:54

He has tried to break you, failed, tried again, got his mates on it hmm and is wanting to put you beneath him - because he can't bear the thought of you being his superior or even his equal. His endeavours are futile; you have more goodness of heart and soul, grace, fortitude and decency in your little finger nail than he can ever hope to have.

Just offering a hand, springy. Can go around your shoulders or hold yours; which ever you'd prefer smile

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 19:02:57

Lily, thank you. That makes me feel so much better. SO much better. I appreciate you posting and will keep re reading that.

I was most certainly not treated with any courtesy or respect. The witness service lady said she had not see the like of it in any DV case before. She said she intended to put in a complaint about the barrister. The court usher also said he was shocked. I couldnt see my ex as I was behind a screen but my friend who came with me said he was constantly speaking in the ear of the junior barrister and then they kept stopping the main barrister for words. She said it really did look like Twunt was sitting having a rare old time paying to watch someone abuse me for 2 hours.

I dont think I have any questions but if if I think of any I will post.

LilyontheLeaf Tue 08-Jan-13 19:10:49

I'm glad I could help smile

I was about to ask..was your ex "vocal" from the dock? I have had many clients who I am fairly sure are doing it simply to put their ex through the hell of giving evidence.

They are the ones who say stuff like "I don't care what you ask, just make her cry". Any barrister worth their salt will tell them where to go.

They then start writing questions and making suggestions in court, and they are a pain in the arse.

It seems the barrister was putting on a show for the client. Obviously that doesn't make it any better for you.

However, I know what would have happened prior to the hearing. Your ex would have been saying to his barrister "Springy won't show, she won't have the guts..yadda yadda yadda".

Then when he found out you were at court, prepared to do it all over again - his face would fall. He'd look shiftily at the floor then go out for a ciggarette.

I've seen it a million times. It's the moment they realise they cannot control you any more. Hold on to that. Good luck with everything.

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 19:15:38

Blimey you lot, I will be getting a big head at this rate. blush

I think its in my genes but be tough. Little, but tough. My grandad survived the trenches, claiming that it was because all the bullets passed over is head, and lived a good and happy life afterwards so I am sure I can recover from two hours fire from a pillock in a wig. (Sorry Lily!)

As you can see I am perking up immensely with all this support, virtual hand holding and hugs. grin

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 19:20:13

Yeah that would have been him Lily. Describes him perfectly. He has done a fair bit of expert witness stuff himself, so familiar with courts. I am certain he would nearly have formulated his defence himself.

oldfatandtired1 Tue 08-Jan-13 19:21:11

Spring - you deserve the big head. You are awesome and continue to inspire me. So pleased to see the big legal folks on your thread!

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 19:27:57

Actually I KNOW he did. There was some stuff in the bundle of papers given to me in the witness box at the first trial that no right minded person could have possible thought could have formed any kind of defensive argument. This wasnt used quite sensibly by the first barrister. I was dying for her to use it as I was ready to rip him apart. It actually showed what an utter c*nt he is!

BelleoftheFall Tue 08-Jan-13 19:53:46

What you say about judges and the chumminess in court really resounds with me. I was a juror in the summer and sat on several trials, and it disturbed me how close the judge was to the prosecution/defence: all of them making jokes with one another and occasionally bantering. One afternoon we returned a guilty verdict for fraud and the man in question was probably going to jail- the judge was making jokes and even this man's own lawyer was tittering away. I found it all grotesque and weird at times. I understood it was a day at work for them but they just seemed to be going through the motions and didn't really understand that this was peoples' lives they were dealing with.

I watched lots of people being ripped apart as they gave evidence and it was deeply upsetting. I'm sorry you had to be up there for two hours.

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 20:08:12

There are so many sides to court experiences . It sounds like that was a rough time Belle. sad

I have heard David Cameron mention very proudly that his mother was a magistrate for years. Presumably he doesnt think the system is flawed. hmm

oldfatandtired1 Tue 08-Jan-13 20:32:17

Hissy - 'not guilty' is not the same as 'innocent '. Absolutely. Am Scottish, 'not proven' means 'we know you did it but can't prove it . . .'. The law is an arse.

LilyontheLeaf Tue 08-Jan-13 20:45:08

Oh Springy, I have met your ex a thousand times over.

Always walks in with an immaculate suit, a slight curl of the lip and a wrinkle of the nose.

Thinks he is too good to be there because he has an O level and can string a sentence together.

Within 13 seconds of conversation, the woman-hating aggression radiates from every pore. The voice is tinged with a grating, weaselly "poor me" whinge.

He refuses to sit in the dock, because he's not a "real criminal". The court clerk makes him. He sits on the edge of his seat staring daggers at everyone.

The witness comes into court. She is attractive, clever, strong.

More attractive than him, but she doesn't think she is - because he's spent years telling her she isn't.
Cleverer than him, but doesn't think she is - because he's spent years telling her she isn't.

But here she is, to prove to him just how strong she is.

I have done thousands of DV cases. In 99% of them, my first thought on seeing the witness is "you can do MUCH better, love. Run for the hills!"

30 seconds into her evidence I get hear the first knock on the glass on the dock. I get my first angry "she's lying" instruction. Yes, thanks. Bugger off and let me do my job.

He thinks he will persuade the jury by looking as indignant as possible. He gets in the odd loud sigh and despairing shake of the head in. Just in case anyone is in any doubt that he does not agree. Fool.

Whatever happens in the end, the real punishment is stepping through the doors of the court. It's sitting in a dock. It's waiting in a corridor with "real criminals". For this type of man - just the experience is enough.

At the end, he'll ask me if we can sue her. I say no. He'll then stalk out of court in a fury.

Trust me Springy - he may have won the battle, but you have won the war.

AnyFucker Tue 08-Jan-13 21:51:11

lily, thanks so much for posting

Springhasarrived Tue 08-Jan-13 21:54:26

Wow, thanks Lily. I will hold these words with me.

One of the supporters who came with me for the first trial said "he was purple with rage, and I mean purple". He also did a serious amount of knocking on the glass the first time too.

You and everyone else on here is right. I stood up to him and that is enough. I will stand up to him again in the divorce court. I can do it and will do it with all these thoughts behind me.

I hope this thread remains as the information and support would benefit future MN'rs who sadly will inevitably come ahead of me.

Allalonenow Tue 08-Jan-13 22:21:26

Dear Spring,
I am so sad to read that you are having to go through all this suffering.
Don't let this arsehole of a man beat you down, you are worth a thousand of him, and will triumph soon.

He and his money might have had an apparent victory in court, but you have your integrity and conscience intact, so are the ultimate victor.

You have paid a vast price in emotional energy, but I can see from your posts that you are already starting to gather your strength once more. I wish I could send you extra supplies of fortitude and resilience to help you through the coming months.

I think you still have a teenage son at home with you, so I hope you both have some indulgent times together, wine and pizza should be good for you both. Take care.

Springhasarrived Wed 09-Jan-13 19:24:12

Just to report in that I feel TONS better today. It is absolutely this thread that has made the difference. I read it all before I went to sleep and when I woke up this morning and I will keep doing that until the words are drilled into me.

I did a really stupid thing at work today and I am more fed up with that than anything so I must be returning to normal already. blush

I know it is early days and there will be set backs but I am getting there.

Thank you all xx flowers

Nyancat Wed 09-Jan-13 19:46:00

Spring I've never posted in relationships before but I just wante to say how inspirat

Nyancat Wed 09-Jan-13 19:49:51

Spring I've never posted in relationships before but I just wante to say how inspirational you are. I was going to post before reading the last page or two but don't really need to as lily has said everything I would have said. I have been involved in so many cases where we know exactly who is lying and that it is in no way reflected in the verdict.

His counsel and the judge very likely are fully aware of the fact that he is an utter bastard but their hands are tied by the law. I've been involved in very similar cases where we've all sat there whilst a judge has basically begged counsel to present him with a reason to find against people like your ex. So please don't think people don't believe you, because they almost certainly do.

HappyNewHissy Wed 09-Jan-13 20:36:32

Spring, that man can't hurt you anymore, you are stronger already.

Mumsnet kept me going when I was fisrt 'out', it's a real lifeline, I'm glad you have it, cos it really does make a difference.

We're not just words on a screen. smile

Glad you're getting there!

LilyontheLeaf Wed 09-Jan-13 21:47:17

Hi Spring,

Just wanted to update you. I spoke to a senior Crown Prosecutor today at work and told him I had had "anecdotal evidence" that some witnesses were attending court for appeal without being aware they would have to give evidence again.

He wasn't sure what the position was in our area, but promised to look into it for me. So hopefully, your horrible experience might bring about some change x

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 10-Jan-13 08:06:35

Glad you had a good day yesterday, hope today is another good one. I am so impressed with how brave you are to have gone through court twice.

Lily and Nyan, thank you for the professional info.

wishing you a good day - hope you are getting a bit more rest, too.x

Springhasarrived Fri 11-Jan-13 09:02:12

I seem to be saying thank you a lot but thank you all again!

I'm terribly tired at the moment and think it is the aftermath of it all, so I am trying to be very kind to myself. I feel the most safe and content when at work. Sadly as part of the divorce process I am "supposed" to be looking for another job with more money. (wont go into that now but will sometime). I refuse to that at the moment as I need to recover under a supportive enviroment which I have there.

Lily and Nyancat, I could write a book on what is wrong with the system, but a very simple thing to carry out and something that would have helped me immeasurably have been to inform the witness that an appeal has been lodged as soon as it has been. You get the letter saying what the verdict was, and it does state that there is a possibility of appeal which has to be lodged within 21 days of the verdict. Of course after a month or so you feel that you are ok! It was 4 months before I got the call. It was literally "Hello, there has been an appeal lodged, what dates cant you attend?" I felt like it was a hammer blow. When I asked for more details she couldn't give me any. Obviously you say on what grounds as that is how you imagine an appeal works. The word Appeal is very misleading. I now understand that everyone has the right to have their case re heard in the Crown Court? Why not say this and not talk about appeals? I am sure that Twunt was given an extra bit of delicious power knowing that I didnt know what was coming up. His divorce solicitor colluded in in this. "The case is effectively over" was one sentence in a letter written after the appeal was lodged. A criminal solicitor told me that often these "appeals" succeed because the witness isnt even asked to go to court?

Everyone, my biggest problem in the last few days is friends saying he is out on a mission to destroy me and he wont rest until he has. As I have probably said above somewhere I think, he has managed to manoeuvre a 2nd FDR hearing delayed until next June whilst he tries to manipulate his income downwards..........I have been told by my lawyers that the judge will see right through this and I felt confident but not so much now with all this negative talk.......

Lueji Fri 11-Jan-13 16:32:36

Keep saying to yourself that you managed to get rid of him.

Even if you have to pay a financial price, it must surely be worth it.

Springhasarrived Fri 11-Jan-13 19:00:50

It absolutely is worth it Lueji. Every moment I know it is, even in the worst of them.

I am a different person now. I am calmer, kinder, friendlier and of course free to do as I please once this is all finished.

I was furious today as I recieved a copy of the court order from the suspended FDR where it says I have to endeavour to get a better paid job and send all information and documentation on this to his solicitor 6 weeks before the next FDR hearing. For starters of course I would get a better paid job if could, plus I am getting wonderful support from some of the people I work with. I dont want a new job, nor do I feel up to finding another one right now. I just thought how dare he try and still run my life to the exent of what fucking job I have, he is lucky I still fucking have one!! Just needed to rant that despite calmer claim above!

Springhasarrived Sun 13-Jan-13 11:42:36


I am still fuming about this information I have to provide to Twunt's solicitor's 6 weeks before the next court appointment for the court as mentioned in the post above. I am trying to get away from this abusive man and yet I am supposed to be documenting every move on the job front. I dont WANT another job at the moment and I resent hugely being bullied about it. How dare he try and dictate my life? He is not part of it and surely I can live my life how I wish? Once I am actually divorced I will make every effort to make sure he knows zero about my life. If I get a new job I want it after he has no rights to demand details of anything to do with my life.

There has just been an announcement that 800 jobs are to be lost in my locality and that is not exactly going to make well paid jobs easy to find.

Could anyone suggest what I might do?

oldqueenie Sun 13-Jan-13 12:39:24

my advice would be to do what he has done and play it tactically... don't state all the (wholly understandable) reasons why you don't want a new job, but do state all the reasons why finding one would be nigh on impossible, including the info about local job losses. It is an issue at the FDR as he is presumably arguing that your present employment does not reflect your actual earning capacity, which in turn is relevant to how much spousal maintenance he should be expected to pay (the more you earn the less he has to pay to support your income needs... Hope you have a solicitor who feels trustworthy and helpful. What does she / he say about the info requested for the FDR??

Have followed this thread and am full of admiration for you spring. Will be thinking of you.
(Another (family law not criminal) lawyer here)

slambang Sun 13-Jan-13 13:10:09

Hi Spring. Still supporting you from the sidelines. I'd be fuming too. How fucking dare they? angry. But agree that tactical is the easiest way to go for your own sanity - you don't want further battles. Play the bastard at his own game. As you say yourself, getting a higher paid job is not easy at the moment, so frankly if you apply for a job or three which your heart is not set on you wont get offered any. If you're offered an intervierw it's fairly easy to not get the job just by being honest.

Why did you apply for this job Ms Spring?
Because I was forced to by my xh's lawyers.

Why would you like to work here?
Actually, I don't want to.

I would put in writing a request to your current employers for a pay rise. You can present them with the letter at the same time explaining (not on paper of course) that you are being forced to do this by x's solicitors and you have no intention of leaving. Worse that can happen - they say no, but you still have proof of trying. Best that can happen, you keep the job you love and they give you a token rise.

You could also put in one or two applications for jobs that you are under-qualified for. Keeps x off your back.

Legally, have you been advised that they can force this? It would seem almost impossible to make somebody take a job against their will.

Springhasarrived Sun 13-Jan-13 16:22:07

Thanks so much for both of your replies. I like all the suggestions as they make me feel more under control of the situation which obviously helps my confidence and self esteem. I will try them all.

When I was at the first FDR the judge (female) said I was in "an unenviable position" regarding finding a job with a decent income and suggested I register with a recruitment consultant. At the time I felt she was very much on my side so I do want to make sure she thinks I have made an effort. It seemed to me she was basically saying to me do that and I will be satisfied but it looks so much more threatening in the court order, especially the instruction to send all my job seeking efforts to his solicitor 6 weeks before the next hearing. What are they going to do with them, check up on the companies??? I feel that however many I do it won't be enough for them.

I will sort out my cv and just send it off to random jobs not that there are many even advertised in my area. (Moved here years ago to facilitate Ex on a short commute and cant move until DS finishes school so my hands are tied) At the moment work is only a couple of miles away for me as well so even if it doesnt pay much at least it costs me nothing to commute!

Oldqueenie, my divorce solicitor has been more than I could have ever hoped for. I couldnt fault her. She is going to get a bunch of flowers from me one day when all the papers are signed. smile

Allalonenow Sun 13-Jan-13 17:52:35

Hello Spring, how are you getting on? I hope the anguish is less raw now.

I've never heard of that type of condition being imposed, and how could it practically be enforced?

As has been said, you need to gather a file of copies of application forms and letters and rejection letters, not difficult in a recession. Don't let it upset you, look upon it as a creative project to complete in order to gain the result you want.

Your STBX is a bastard of some note!

Springhasarrived Sun 13-Jan-13 18:16:56

Getting on quite well really Allalone. It is less raw now, even though I have realised there is something I could have said and another statement that could have been gathered from someone that would have put paid to all the arguments his barrister was making.........

That is good idea to consider this job thing as a creative project to get what Spring wants rather than what Twunt wants.

I've not mentioned it on this thread but I did have a "good" job in "our" business which the unqualified OW now has. A bastard of some note, indeed.............

oldqueenie Sun 13-Jan-13 18:28:20

I'm sure your solicitor has told you this... but rest assured no-one, not your abusive STBXH or the court can in any way force you to change jobs... but if there is a hearing about the financial issues the court may have to consider whether your current job reflects your actual earning capacity or whether yu can reasonably be expected to earn more by changing jobs. If you can bear it play the game and "demonstrate" that this contention is false... very glad to hear your solicitor is a gem. Wishing you all the good luck in the world. .

Springhasarrived Sun 13-Jan-13 19:21:56

It's about time I did a bit of game playing. It's not me but I will do it.

Thanks for the advice. For my own sanity I think I will have to devise a way of spending the least possible time on it.

This is probably a how long is a piece of string question but I have about 4 months ahead to do this so how many applications should I make to make it look about the right amount of effort? You do hear of people making literally 100's of applications and not getting a job.

oldqueenie Sun 13-Jan-13 19:29:39

well I agree it is a bit of a difficult ?... but in your case there's clearly no point applying for things that don't pay more tan your current job, or as so far away that you can't get there, or expect random shift working when that would make any childcare impossible / unnaffordable... etc. A bit more than a token effort? But not a full time full on effort??

Springhasarrived Sun 13-Jan-13 19:43:43

The judge was very keen on the recruitment agency thing so I think perhaps if I do that first (shows I am doing as I was told if I do it early on!), see what they have to say and go from there.

I will call one I've just found tomorrow and report back. Thanks. You've made me feel better about it.

slambang Sun 13-Jan-13 20:32:16

I work in the employment advice game. Unfortunately for some, recruitment agencies are no longer all they are cracked up to be. A good proportion of jobs shown on online agency sites these days are dummy jobs (already closed, poached from other recruitment sites or just plain made up to pull in more CVs and business). Agencies are inundated with CVs from those on job seekers' allowance (who have to apply for a minimum 3 to 6 jobs a week) and 99% of applicants hear nothing more. Scanning programs are used to filter for CVs with specific qualifications or experience and you may get phone calls about other jobs. Just be honest about your preferred hours and travelling distance and you are unlikely to be put forward for interview.

Basically, I'm trying to say that unless you have very sought-after, niche qualifications or experience you can send your CV to umpteen agency job sites without standing much chance of being offered an unsuitable job over all the keenies out there. Once your cv's done, it's easy work to send it left, right and centre at the click of a button to show how hard you're trying. Hey presto, you've applied for 20 jobs without any luck (oh dear...) Spring happy, judge happy, x's solicitors don't give a shit satisfied. wink

PickledApples Sun 13-Jan-13 20:56:31

I am shock and angry on your behalf for this job seeking crap!

I know very little but wanted to say this in case it is useful:
Take half an hour every Friday to visit a set 5 or so sites (fish4, monster, guardian, etc)
Print out all the jobs with your role advertised
Get a big fuck off large red pen
Cross out all the ones paying too little / too far away / unworkable hours
Asterisk those you'll apply for
Print off any rejection emails or copy any letters
(NB jobcentreplus / direct
gov has recently changed - you have to register now or something?)

Just because it seems to me that a folder full of "look you stupid twat" could be useful - ie.include evidence of what crap you are having to sift through, not just the few you apply for?

TBH I would be very, very reluctant to give his solicitor anything - disclose it at a mediation meeting or something but who the hell is he to be judge,jury&careers advisor to you?!!

Not sure if any help. Keep going, he can't break you. He is a piss-poor excuse of a human being for even attempting to do so. I am pretty sure that bastard ex of yours will find any afterlife a tad on the warm side hmm smile

Springhasarrived Mon 14-Jan-13 02:07:58

Well things are the pits tonight. I knew it was going to be a bad night so stayed up late but woke after half an hour with weird pains in knees. confused I am again on MN and cheered to see more posts and great advice and information. I even smiled at the afterlife comment flowers. Up to then I was actually right down to thinking if it wasnt for youngest DS I couldnt go on. sad I know these are stupid, stupid thoughts but they come when sleep won't. I that once DS finishes school I will be free to go wherever I want so that is less than 18 months now. I need to hang in but I have a sense tonight of life just passing me by and of course still being controlled.

I like the idea of the Friday half hour and producing a huge folder of crap out of it. It keeps it in a controllable space for me if that makes sense.

Slambang, just on browsing this evening I've noticed so many job ads dont even give rate of pay but I suppose if offered an interview I can ask before I make the effort to turn up to a job I dont want? I have also been asked to provide a letter from an agency stating the likelihood of me finding a better paid position. Do you think that I would get one of those easily without having to pay too much?

PickledApples The request for me to provide information about jobs I have applied for to his solicitor has been written into a court order so I have to do it but not for another 4 months.


Springhasarrived Mon 14-Jan-13 13:27:19


I've just been doing what PickledApples said with the red pen bingo and as a result have found a recruitment open day I can attend without even putting myself out - I pass the venue most days. Hoping this will add Brownie points suitable for the whole month?!

Wonderful MN help. Thanks.

LilyontheLeaf Mon 14-Jan-13 14:19:26

Hi Spring,

I am sorry that things are hard at the moment sad.

I was sad to see you post that you still feel that you are being controlled by this twunt - you are FAR from being controlled. You broke free when you left him and reported him to the police.

Complying with court orders is not being controlled by him - it is doing what is best for yourself and your DS, nothing more, nothing less. It does sound silly, this job hunting thing - what does your sol say about it?

Anyway, what I know is that you are brave and strong and your DS is lucky to have you as a mother.

It sounds like he is at an age where he is learning what it is to be a man - and you are teaching him that women should be treated with respect and decency. He is very fortunate.

Standing up in court took a huge amount of courage, I know. That courage will get you through the next few months. We are all behind you! x

oldqueenie Mon 14-Jan-13 15:15:42

How about trying to reframe this job hunting business? Rather than viewing it as him / the court pushing you about, maybe try to see it as the means by which you are going to make sure you get what you are entitled to from him / the court... Just a thought....

Very sorry to hear last night was so hard. Hope today things feel just a bit more manageable / hopeful. You've just been through an incredibly stressful experience. Not at all surprising to be very affected by it. this too shall pass! x

Mouseface Mon 14-Jan-13 15:32:34

I don't care are an inspiration. It doesn't matter what the outcome is now

Here here AF

I too have little experience of court proceedings but DV was a HUGE part of my past. I want to applaud your courage and strength. And give you a ((hug)) if that's okay.

PickledApples Mon 14-Jan-13 16:23:11

Glad to be of some small help! Do you have to give it to his solicitor though - or can someone else 'check' it? Either which way, take copies/photographs of everything / send things recorded - or via your own solicitor if possible with a header letter from them?

You mentioned 18months until moving, but - if you will be looking for a school start for September 2014, it means you'll be able to apply for Secondary school places by this coming September - 2013. Looking at catchment areas, amenities, travelling times and places to live could start this spring/summer even? Plus any housemove will take planning, organising, finding a home, setting up tenancy/mortgage etc... so hopefully you will be feeling the wind of (even more) change soon smile

RE: nighttime, I wondered if you used at all?
I find scrolling the pictures at night can aid sleep / distract thoughts a bit more than MN - (or at least when it is mixed in with some browsing of Active Conversations anyway!) you more than likely have heard of it, but worth a look if not.
Small steps, you've come so bloody far [[ pat on back ]] brew

slambang Mon 14-Jan-13 18:00:57

With regards to the agencies (and the non existent salary info) - the usual process is :
1. You send your cv to the agency expressing interest in a role. (At this point you may hear no more.)
2. If you are a possibility, the agency will usually ring you and interview you by phone. At this point they will give you more information about the job (including salary, location etc). This is very much a filtering interview on their part. (At this point too you may hear no more.)
3. If you and the agent decides you are a match with the job, they will ask if you would like to be put forward for the role. Of course if pay etc is not to your liking you can say no. (At this point too you may hear no more.)
4. The CV (or highlights of it) are forwarded to the employer along with a number of others. Other agencies may also be sending CVs for the same role to the employer. (At this point again you may hear no more.)
5. The employer selects (perhaps 3 or 4) from the CVs they've been sent to call candidates for face to face interviews. Again you'll hear more details about salary etc and have the option of backing out politely if it's not a good offer. (Again at this point you may hear no more.)

So you see there are plenty of points at which you'll learn more about the role and where you can say no thanks. And plenty of points where you can be given the impression the job's in the bag and nothing happens...

One query though: recruitment agencies have a habit of sounding really positive to everybody and will be optimistic about your chances of earning mega bucks as they want good people on their books. They may not be honest if you ask how likely it will be that you can get a better paid job - chances are they'll say oh yes, we can help you earn stacks more money. (Not what you need!)

I'd suggest that you might get a more honest report about your chances from a careers adviser or an employer in your sector. Or have a totally honest - cards on the table talk with an agent you have built up a report with. Explain why you need the report and that they need to be as pessimistic realistic as possible.

Keep going Spring. You're nearly out the other side. I really like Oldqueenie's reframing. Yes, this is just so you get what you deserve out of STBX. you are taking control over him.

Springhasarrived Tue 15-Jan-13 21:45:57

Yes, definitely going for the reframing idea. It has already helped.

My solicitor rang today. She said not to stress about the job hunting for now and was just generally kind and supportive. I told her about the recruitment day and she said I was good to even consider going and that it most certainly would be more than enough for the time being.

I have also spoken with a hypnotherapist I heard give a talk recently and have got an appointment for next week. She is a trained psychotherapist too and when I explained the situation and how well I had been doing only to suffer this latest set back she said her therapy was ideal (which I knew) so I am going next week. I'm quite excited about it actually. It interests me on an intellectual level.

I have taken up all of your ideas in some way or other. I had coffee with a friend today and she said who is it who is giving you all this amazing advice? I said of all sorts of people really. blush I didnt want to say MN [even though she is a wonderful friend] blush

hahaha, it's reasonable to be a,bit coy about MN- I am with everyone but DH , who knows it is my social life at the moment as I sit at home with a newborn! grin also when we are puzzling over something one of the boys he asks what MN suggests! whoops! grin

SpringyReframed Wed 16-Jan-13 07:09:40

Thought I would have a bit of a name change. smile. It is part of trying to recover.

Yipee, I slept all night but then I did an awful lot of talking to friends yesterday and it does help. Offload is a wonderful description. I was free to sleep.

Blackcurrants you make me feel better knowing you do that too. smile. In my defence there is a long running thread on here that I knew would help a friend and I sent her a link to it so I dont keep it to myself entirely, just my bit!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 16-Jan-13 07:31:42

Ah, Springy, I don't talk about MN to anyone either except occasionally sending helpful links to people after which I usually namechange!

Lueji Wed 16-Jan-13 07:58:48

So glad you're doing better and talking to people in RL too.

I mention MN occasionally, and have sent the link to a thread to a friend.

I have mentioned MN to pregnant friends, specifically the breastfeeding advice on here, which helped me enormously with DS1- it's great to have a place to ask is this normal, or just vent !
I would blush if people read my posts, though. I don't exactly try to be witty on here grin

I hope you have some beautiful bright winter days and are feeling a little better each morning, Spring x

SpringyReframed Thu 17-Jan-13 20:10:19

I went to the recruitment fair today. Most odd. Turned up, filled an application form in, sat around with a load of silent people and had an interview which consisted mostly of being told about the company but little about the job.confused.They will get back to me if successful for a second interview. This should cover trying to find a job with more money quite nicely were it not for the fact that I never found out about the salary. I couldnt bring myself to ask. Is that pathetic? Perhaps I would have been told if they had been interested in me? Whatever, job done and got home before it snowed too much.

Being the Springy I am, felt very sorry for those who really were desperate to get a job. You could see it on their faces. sad Good to get out and see others who are seemingly worse off than me though for keeping me going.

Blackcurrants I would have never been off MN if it had existing when I was BF'ing. I found it a whole new experience with each baby. None of the 3 fed anything like the same way and DC3 BF experience was a nightmare. It stopped me being so evangelical about it! blush

SpringyReframed Thu 24-Jan-13 19:37:27

Thought I would share this bit of news with you. Twunt is in hospital having had two new knees fitted. He just sent a message to DS3 to impart this satisfying piece of information. Says he is very sore. Isnt that a shame?? hmm As DS hates him, it beggars belief that he thinks he might get some kind of sympathy! We both laughed when he read out the message to me!

I've have been to see a hypnotherapist. She is helping me to stop thinking about the court experience and also to sleep better. It was fantastic and even in one session I feel much better. She said she thought it would only take possibly 3 sessions as I have such a good understanding of my own emotions. That felt very good.

Lueji Thu 24-Jan-13 20:57:28

Good to know you are doing better. smile
Regarding counselling, it must be all the practice you do at MN. grin

SpringyReframed Thu 24-Jan-13 21:14:32

Its all you brilliant lot supporting and advising me thanks

I'm going to sleep well tonight what with the hypnosis cd and Twunt held up in hospital...wink

Allalonenow Thu 24-Jan-13 23:36:42

A friend had new knees, she said it was the worst pain she had ever experienced; let's hope he falls down stairs! <evil>

Oh! and OW will enjoy being nursemaid to a grumpy old man, as someone said on another thread, when you are with a much older man you soon stop being the girlfriend and quickly become the carer, she will rapidly get bored with playing Florence Nightingale.

How is your fifth form school holiday project for his solicitor progressing, did you get plenty of paperwork from the recruitment fair for your file? I remember the job centre had a department for graduates etc, they were useless but churned out reams of forms/letters. Might be worth seeing if something like that is still available and getting on their books?

Good news about the hypnotherapist, sweet dreams Spring.

SpringyReframed Fri 25-Jan-13 07:24:40

I did have sweet dreams. I slept beautifully with the hypnosis/twunt in hospital combo!
I agree about the carer thing. What an escape I've had. The two of them will have a dose of reality these next few weeks.
Regarding the recruitment fair, I'm waiting to hear back with a thanks for attending letter which I will add to my "project" grin. I've wondered about a job centre registration so will give it a go. Great suggestion.

slambang Fri 25-Jan-13 10:08:16

Wow Springy. You are so well-named bouncing back already - BOIIINNG!!

The Job Centre idea sounds good but as you're working already I don't think they'll be much help not that they are much help anyway. They can only 'supoort' <hollow laugh> those on work related benefits. So unless you are working few enough hours that you're eligible to go on JSA then you wont even get to speak to an adviser.

You could go to see a careers adviser at the National Careers Service. They offer a free face to face service and can help with job search, CVs etc plus give you lots of unnecessary paperwork for your file.

Careers service

Hi Springy - I've been lurking more than posting recently because of the baby - I can read MN on my phone while feeding him but not quite co-ordinated enough to post! However I am reading and sending you ALL the good vibes. And I love the idea of the Year 5 project ... so pointless, but exactly how you get the edge on The Evil One, so well done you! smile

SpringyReframed Fri 25-Jan-13 21:13:55

I have definitely been Springy today - After I posted earlier I started dancing round my kitchen to a song on the radio doing some knees up moves! How pleased I am not to have to look after Twunt in his pain....... grin

I had no idea there was such a thing as the National Careers Service. Thanks Slambang. I will register on line over the weekend. Another few lines in the Yr 5 Project file!

Blackcurrants I am delighted you are not risking Little Currant posting on my thread to much. grin Back in the day I couldnt even always manage to turn a page successfully on a paperback and many a time dropped it on a baby Springy. blush. They are all keen readers so it didnt do lasting harm grin

hah! grin I have dropped my phone* on the head of BOTH currantboys now, poor lads - mind you, both are growing big and strong so it'll probably be fine. Can't believe I have a four week old now!

*and worse. One earnest new mother friend of mine, when we were both pfb-ish and talking about weaning, asked me when DS1 might be 'exposed to peanut allergens' and I said "less than a week old, when I dropped my toast on his head." grin he has no food allergies and REALLY likes peanut butter on toast, so .. yay! smile

AnyFucker Fri 25-Jan-13 23:33:47

Has somebody kneecapped the fucker ??

Oh, happy days !

AF grin

Allalonenow Sat 26-Jan-13 07:26:26

AF grin

SpringyReframed Sat 26-Jan-13 16:10:26

I am pretending I have they have AF grin

Apparently it is almost impossible to get up and down from the loo for weeks. That'll be nice for OW, helping him out. hmm

AnyFucker Sat 26-Jan-13 16:36:28


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