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I've been thinking.

(143 Posts)
FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:02:58

Hi I posted the other day about my dh hating the fact I'm close to my guy best friend.
If I'm honest it's all gone a bit down hill. I'm just going to write stuff down because its easier than keeping it all in my head.
He outright accused me of cheating on him. No evidence or reason to think this other than my friend texting me saying he was home from work (in the other thread I said about this, he was worried about falling asleep on the bus etc.... Very harmless jokey conversation). Anyway this hurt me more than I expected it to. It ruined Christmas for me, I couldn't look at him without feeling angry, I didn't want him near me or hugging me or anything. He sensed I was angry and said that he was leaving, he'd ruined christmas and he'd phone mil to tell her not to bother coming round. I told him not to be selfish, dd and ds were really looking forward to seeing mil. He said he didn't care and if they came round he would be going out. Then it changed to 'what do you want me to do? Leave or stay' I never said anything about going to him?! So this confused me, why was he making it all down to me?
I've been thinking about the past few years and everything all rolled into one just seems so wrong. When I went out for a night out I had a cigarette (I'd quit for 3 years because he didn't like it) I told him on my way home and he hung up, phoned back 2 mins later and said he'd taken 20 paracetamols and he wanted to die. I came home and found out that that was all a lie. I have no idea why he did this?
When I go out he bugs me about what time I'm coming home. It'll go something like this:
'Are you going to get the half 11 bus home?'
'Provably not that's quite early'
'Can you please just get that bus, I want to spend time with you before we go to bed' (baring in mind I go out on my own maybe once every two-three months)
He will phone and text throughout the whole time I am out to make sure I don't miss my bus, along with asking who's out, who I'm talking to and if any 'hot guys' have hit on me.
I will be honest and say that when he goes out I do ask what time roughly he'll be back, I never tell him a time and I don't mind what time he's back I just like to know if that makes sense? I don't phone him and just leave him to have fun.
He is a good husband and father, he is amazing with the kids, I can't fault him on that. He always tells me I'm pretty.
One thing he does do that really gets on my nerves is that he'll do something for me or buy me something, which is nice, but he'll go on and on about all the things he's bought me and done for me.

Anyway, I'm really sorry that's long but I had to write it down. I know everyone has complaints about their OH, I'm sure he has tons about me. I don't even think there's a point to my post, I just needed to get it out.

Jemma1111 Fri 28-Dec-12 17:06:02

He's a control freak that's for sure , life's too short to be unhappy . I couldn't bc with someone like that

Jemma1111 Fri 28-Dec-12 17:06:26


TurnipCake Fri 28-Dec-12 17:10:23

He's certainly controlling and manipulative. Lying about taking an OD would have been the final straw for me, to be honest.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:12:39

It nearly split us up, he makes arguing very hard, he breaks down and cries and makes it very difficult for me to not feel guilty if that makes sense?

GlitteryShitandDanglyBaubles Fri 28-Dec-12 17:14:59

That would drive me bonkers.

I am very close to 2 brothers, both of whom are ex-boyfriends (albeit years ago) and both of whom have visited our home, and I've met them for lunch / coffee / shopping / catch up in town etc.

The first time I went for coffee with one of them dh was a bit hmm but on my return, I told him the kind of stuff we'd talked about, related funny stories etc, and dh started laughing and said 'I'm so sorry, you'll think I'm daft but I felt a bit jealous while you were out, but I can see that the way you are behaving and talking is not the behaviour of a scarlet woman after meeting her man, you sound like you've been out for coffee with your brother or something' which is how I think of both of them ( my friends, not dh!) He has never given me problems over it. If he had, he'd have been told it's TOUGH - I will not be dictated to about who I spend time with, I've never given dh any reason to worry, never come home with my knickers on my head and out of breath... Your other half sounds controling, insecure, jealous and petulant, and life is too short! It could be that you can help him over this <hopeful> by asking him exactly what it is he is worried about happening (knickers on head, breathless, etc...) and being very open about it. My dh was embarrassed to admit that just for a few minutes he wondered if I was off getting my end away (ha! fat chance. I'd be a crap scarlet woman, I'd just want to cuddle and watch coronation street, not the most sizzling affair)

I don't think your other half realises how ridiculous he is. And tell him 20 paras will most definitely not do the job!

izzyizin Fri 28-Dec-12 17:15:47

Your h is a selfish and self-entitled controlling arse.

It seems you've got a remarkably low bench mark for what constitutes a 'good husband' and, by default, your low standards no doubt also apply to 'good father'.

When are you going to raise your standards?

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:19:05

I've tried! I've even tried getting him and my friend together but dh won't and tbh I'm a bit glad because I lost one friend because he met her, didn't like her and was very rude to her whenever we all met up (ignoring her, being really blunt and snobby) me and this friend had a minor fall out and I've not spoken to her since because whenever she messages dh is like 'oh you're not going to message her back are you?'

JustFabulous Fri 28-Dec-12 17:20:20

This relationship is not working.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:20:25

He is a good father, there is no doubt about that at all. He shares the parental duties equally, he adores the kids and they adore him. I've never had any issues with his parenting. Just the way he treats me sad

TurnipCake Fri 28-Dec-12 17:22:03

To me, being a good father includes treating the mother of his children with love and respect. Good father and good husband are not mutually exclusive.

tribpot Fri 28-Dec-12 17:22:11

This behaviour is intended to grind you down and stop you from going out.

The accusation of infidelity is intended to grind you down and make you feel like you must have done something wrong, that you need to bring him round somehow.

The fake overdose story is upping the ante.

My boyfriend at university accused me of being unfaithful with no proof. I was devastated. I felt I had 'no choice' but to accept it because I didn't want to break up with him. My friends all cautiously tried to offer the opinion that he needed kicking to the kerb. They were right.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:24:40

There are good days though. But I can't lie and say I haven't had thoughts about leaving, a lot more recently

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 28-Dec-12 17:26:00

Look love, the vast majority of posters on your other thread said your partner was a controlling twat who was displaying the reddest of red flags (apart from the man-pleasers of course...)

So, now your lightbulb has been well and truly illuminated, what are you going to do about it ? And how will you handle the inevitable barrage of emotional blackmail that will inevitably come your way, if you decide enough is enough ?

You have always fallen for his shit before, so you need to identify what you are going to do differently this time

susanann Fri 28-Dec-12 17:26:39

The thing that screams out to me is his insecurities. Sounds like hes got self esteem issues. Phoning and texting you all the time when youre out must be very annoying. The thing about which bus you are getting is just an excuse to keep tabs on you. He is controlling in a way but I feel its led by his insecurity.
Have you talked to him about his behaviour? Has he been cheated on in the past? Does he realise his behaviour has the potential to drive you away?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 28-Dec-12 17:27:34

he is systematically cutting you off from your friends (and by association, your support network)

how far are you willing to let him go ?

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:27:51

I don't know. I'll admit I'm not a tough person, I can never make decisions. It's pathetic really. I really don't know what to do.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 28-Dec-12 17:28:37

Well, I can guarantee this.

if you do nothing, this time next year things will be worse not better.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:29:27

I don't think he's ever been cheated on, he's never mentioned it if he has. I have spoken to him so many times about it, always the same answer 'I didn't know I was doing it, I'm sorry' then the same again in a few months.

StuffezLaBouche Fri 28-Dec-12 17:32:45

It's nothing to do with the friend and he KNOWS you've not cheated. He's reacting like this because you are NOT BEING OBEDIENT! You haven't dropped this friend like he would have wanted, so you are undermining and questioning him!
He honestly sounds vile and anyone who pretends to have taken an overdose to get attention is a fucking manipulative idiot.
What actually is keeping you with him? Why do his tears and whining have such an effect on you?

JustFabulous Fri 28-Dec-12 17:32:57

You can make decisions. You decided to date him, have kids with him, live with him. You decided you needed help and posted on here. Just start making some decisions about things that you want and stop pandering to this dickhead.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:34:33

I don't know why I stay. He can be really lovely sometimes (amongst all of the stuff I posted above) and I'm terrified of being alone I think.

izzyizin Fri 28-Dec-12 17:34:46

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that this man is a 'good husband' and a 'good father' as he is neither.

The control he is exerting over you will inevitably adversely affect your dc and, in fact, I suspect it has already done so.

What's that saying? Something about there being none so blind as those who will not see? It's time for you to get to Specsavers, honey.

izzyizin Fri 28-Dec-12 17:40:14

Oh dear. Not another woman who stays in an unfullilling relationship because 'I don't want to be alone'.

While you've still got the vision to do so, take a look at this thread:

mcmooncup Fri 28-Dec-12 17:42:57

What is it that frightens you about being 'alone'?

Has he managed to convince you that you wouldn't be able to cope without him?

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:47:50

I don't know, I don't want to grow old alone. I hate being on my own.

AnnoyedAtWork Fri 28-Dec-12 17:53:32

Read the thread about red flags!

This man will not change sorry. Best hope is if you get relationship counselling. You need to realise that his controlling behaviour is not ok and not normal.

Hope you find the strength to change something that you CAN change. I was in a relationship like this for 2 years (accused of cheating, trying to control me going out, isolating me from friends) and through couples counselling and also sessions on my own I realised how crazy the behaviour was and that I was free to leave if I wanted.

StuffezLaBouche Fri 28-Dec-12 17:55:55

Can I ask how old you are, OP?
Even if you're temporarily alone, does not mean you would be for the rest of your life. And honestly, I do query how people can be at peace with themselves when they hate their own company to the extent they'd rather be abused by some wanker than be alone.
Would you be happy getting to 50, 70, 80 knowing you wasted your whole life with this man who treats you like an insubordinate dog?

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 17:58:34

I'm 24. I don't want to go all 'psychology' on myself but I'm fairly sure that I don't want to be alone because I've pretty much been alone my whole childhood, grew up in foster care, moved about a lot, met dh when I was 18, he's been my only constant person since.

sudaname Fri 28-Dec-12 17:59:41

My dd has just left such a man and as a result of living with him for 15 years and despite her friendly caring nature she has no friends - apart from me obviously, he always managed to isolate anyone who came close - cant drive - again down to him always putting kybosh on it to keep her totally dependant on him imo.

Sound like your Christmas future ?

mcmooncup Fri 28-Dec-12 18:00:39

You sort of are alone already. You certainly do not have a partner who has your best interests at heart, and who looks after you. It is not a genuine loving relationship.

sudaname Fri 28-Dec-12 18:02:12

Oh and forgot to mention no workplace skills except cleaning as there was always a reason why she had to leave college or couldnt go in the first place.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 18:03:58

He has been really supportive about me applying for uni this year.
I do feel really lonely most of the time though sad

StuffezLaBouche Fri 28-Dec-12 18:04:52

The circumstances of your upbringing are obviously affecting the choices you're making now. sad

I cannot claim to have the first clue to start helping you see that constant does not equal good. I have worked in several school though and have seen children grow up in similar circs to yours (from what you've said) who lied, lied and lied to stay with parents who were abusing them because the parents were their "constants." It's chilling.

As I say, I am no psychologist but just remember: You have done nothing wrong by having a male friend - many normal people have platonic friends of the opposite sex. Also, you CAN be alone. You do not need him to function in the world.

How would he react if you told him it was over?

mcmooncup Fri 28-Dec-12 18:05:19

I think it is brilliant that at 24 you are recognising this behaviour as being wrong.

It took me until I was 35 blush

Just keep talking, keep reading, keep educating yourself......
You say you don't want to talk about 'your psychology', yet I think you also know there is a possibly a connection between the results you have had from previous relationships (e.g. parents) and the expectations of current relationships.

You know you don't have to put up with this, you know it is wrong, just keep going on that theme. You will get out, and you will be happy. You could have a happy future ahead of you if you start to take the control back.

TurnipCake Fri 28-Dec-12 18:05:25

French, I can understand you wanting stability based on that, I think anyone would, but the life your living is not indicative of a stable and loving relationship.

I remember when I was 24 and in a miserable relationship, I was crying on the sofa of a friend who I didn't actually know that we'll, but she was kind and that was the time I chose to cry. I said I was scared I would be alone for the rest of my life and she said, "That is just bullshit" and she was right! I had more people approach me the year after I dumped my ex than I ever had because I radiated happiness. And as others have said, having time to yourself is not the worst thing in the world, have a read of the single thread

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 18:08:45

If I told him it was over he would cry and probably threaten to do something stupid to himself.
He'd say he'll quit his job (he's said this before when we've had arguments becaus he knows because I don't work we rely on him).

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 18:09:41

Thanks for all your advice btw, I honestly am taking it all in. I just feel a bit helpless at the moment and I hate myself for that sad

mcmooncup Fri 28-Dec-12 18:11:52

If he choses to do something stupid to himself, that is not your problem.

You cannot be forced to stay in a relationship because of this threat - do you see how this is working for him?

You have the right to walk away at any time.

StuffezLaBouche Fri 28-Dec-12 18:14:07

You're not his keeper though - he may threaten these things, he may do them, but that's his choice. Nothing to do with you.
If he quits his job, fine. That wouldn't matter to you as you would have no ties on him.

Every day, can you do one little thing that reminds you that you are an individual with potential. Maybe day one - look on the jobcentre website, think what you'd be good at. Day two, look on Rightmove or something - look what decent properties you could aim towards. Etc etc.

I'm so aware that I'm only a couple of years older than you and have no right to be "lecturing" but it's the saddest thing to read posts from an obviously intelligent woman being abused and kept in a horrible relationship.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 18:14:18

I know. I think I'm worried about what MIL will think and his family. I get on really well with all of them. I will lose a lot of people, most of my friends are his friend and family.

StuffezLaBouche Fri 28-Dec-12 18:14:58

you're NOT helpless - of course this is a lot to take in. It's a whole new way of thinking! Just keep reading, reading and thinking.

TurnipCake Fri 28-Dec-12 18:16:07

Be kind to yourself, as someone else said, it's no easy thing to wake up to. It took me almost a year after I had left an abusive relationship to realise it was abustive

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Fri 28-Dec-12 18:16:38

Ruby, have a chat to WOmen's AId. Your partner is abusive and he's going to get worse. Being alone would be a lot better than living with him, because he is a horrible, inadequate human being. He will start harming your children fairly soon - not necessarily physically, but by manipulating them to feed his ego, and trying to make them side with him against you. This is very bad for children.

Also, whatever you do to try and appease a jealous controller, it's not enough. Not ever. He will progress to controlling what you wear - perhaps to the extent of destroying items of clothing he disapproves of. He may 'accidentally' damage communication devices or take them from you. He may make it impossible for you to leave the house - some men like this lock their partners in.

Being by yourself after living a life treading on eggshells is the most wonderful feeling ever.

Imagine being able to miss that bus and having to worry about getting home rather than worrying about what he has to say about it.

It took me until my mid-30s to act and leave and by then I hadn't been out by myself for 6 years because it was just too much hassle. I wish I done something about it in my 20s. It is my only regret in life.

You will thrive and the decisions you make will be right for your DC rather than based around this man.

JustFabulous Fri 28-Dec-12 18:22:40

He isn't the only man in the world.

He is just the only one making you unhappy at the moment.

Get rid, have some time for yourself. Let yourself be found by a decent man.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 18:26:38

If I leave what do I do about money? I have no job. A uni interview in feb, I probably couldn't afford to do that. I have about £2000 of debt in my name although around half of that is stuff he's bought.

izzyizin Fri 28-Dec-12 18:28:39

You need counselling to overcome childhood expereiences which have made you emotionally needy and, as such, a prime target for abusive males such as your h.

You're an adult now with all the rights and entitlements and responsibility that entails, and reaking free of your abusive twunt of an h does not mean that you'll be transported back to the past when you were a powerless child, honey.

As you've got dc of your on to care about it's going to be a very long time, if ever, that you'll be on your own - even when chicks fly the nest they return time and again.

If you have a good enough "profile" and "get up and go" for a uni interview you can get a job if you need.

Go for the interview and research what help you'll get to study. You might be able to manage it.

Don't let any more debt be built up in your name. Whilst you're working out what to do can you get some of the debt paid off?

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 18:43:54

I'm working off paying everything atm, dh pays for his stuff that's in my name but I'm worried he'd stop if we broke up, I definitely couldn't manage it on my own monthly I don't think.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 28-Dec-12 19:18:24

you have debt in your name run up by him ?

another red flag

he is financially abusive too

he is supportive of your Uni application because he has twigged it will make you even more dependent on him

my advice ?

defer the Uni for a year...get yourself and your kids away from him, before you have nothing of yourself left

you think I am being overdramatic ? (any lurkers think that, too ?)...well, I'm not. What your inner voice is telling you now is that this is not acceptable in a partner. Give it a few more months, you get tied up with Uni work and running yourself ragged looking after the kids as well as pandering to this inadequate will no longer know your arse from your elbow.

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 19:25:51

I dont think he's financially abusive. He has his own money, he buys his own stuff, he just adds some things now and then to my littlewoods account because he doesn't have one. He pays for it all each month.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 28-Dec-12 19:32:40

but if he stops paying every month ?

you have no concern about that ?

FrenchRuby Fri 28-Dec-12 19:40:23

I do worry about it.

JustFabulous Fri 28-Dec-12 20:02:32

You shouldn't be worrying your husband won't pay what he owes. You should KNOW he will never let you down, otherwise what is the point of your marriage?

AF is never over dramatic. She is very very very wise and you would do well to listen to her.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 28-Dec-12 20:02:42

and he knows it

Twattergy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:10:41

I guarantee that you will not be alone for the rest of your life of you leave this man. Me and all of my friends split with all of our partners aged between 28 and 30. All of us are back in relationships, some within a matter of months, some a few years. A bit of time on your own will probably show you how decisive and strong you actually can be. I'm not saying that leaving a relationship is easy, it's not, especially with children. But don't fear a future alone, fear a future of intense unhappiness trapped in the wrong relationship. You have many many years ahead of you, so plenty of time to make a change and get a better life.

ErikNorseman Fri 28-Dec-12 20:29:15

You can do uni without him. You will get housing benefit, tax credits and you may be able to get childcare grants or a career development loan. It is entirely doable.
You kind of need to examine your own motivation in clinging on to a man who makes you unhappy. Of course you want a stable family. But this man isn't it.

You would manage.

And, in my opinion, £1000 worth of debt you might get back is no reason to stay.

There are many ways you could manage - working, uni, access to benefits. You can do them in any order and they aren't mutually exclusive.

If you come up with three options - research them and see which works best for you. And as AF points what you do in 2013 might be different to 2014.

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 09:26:42

Dh has now started following me in twitter. It's my birthday tomorrow and I'd arranged a night out and thought I would be a good time to see if dh and best friend could get along (its stupid, on paper they'd be such good friends, same interests, both into gaming etc..) but best friend is really ill so said he probably can't make it, I told dh and he said how do you know? So I said best friend had told me via twitter (which makes me wonder if he's been going through my texts because there wasn't any about him being ill, it had been a convo over twitter) so suddenly even though he had no interest in it before he's now set up and account.

What do you think he's going to be like when you start at Uni and have Uni mates ? He could be unbearable.....

Honestly you are young, could meet some lovely educated guy at Uni who doesn't try to control your social life and your life could be amazing ! But if you stay with your h it could make the whole experience a nightmare.

Please ring women's aid, you can discuss the control thing with them and they can help you

StuffezLaBouche Sat 29-Dec-12 09:33:22

Prettywhiteguitar is exactly right about the uni men. It really opens your eyes to be surrounded by intelligent, sociable, pleasant men...your H will really up his controlling ways a notch once he realises this.

I would bet next month's salary that he looks through your texts on a regular basis. Of course he does. And would he ever let you have access to social media without him watching over you, vetting your contact?

Everything you say about him makes me so sad, but keep posting, keep reading and your eyes will gradually open. Do you have anything nice planned for today?

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 09:39:11

I was supposed to be going out for my birthday with my friends(birthday is tomorrow) but dd has chicken pox and I don't think it's fair that mil has her when she's all spotty and grumpy, dh won't say to go without him, if I mention it he'll sulk.

StuffezLaBouche Sat 29-Dec-12 09:42:37

Of course he doesn't want you going out with out him - you might spontaneously have sex with another man! hmm
It is YOUR special day tomorrow - put your foot down and say I am going out with my friends, will you please look after dd. Sulking is utterly wankerish behaviour and should be ignored.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sat 29-Dec-12 09:54:11

Are you the girl that married my ex?!
My biggest regret is letting him push my friends away, is make excuses not to see or speak to them as he'd kick up a fuss, feign illnesses and behave as yours does. Basically it resulted in lost youth, wasted years and losing what were amazing friendships.
My advice is hold onto your friends and family with both hands, don't fall for games and stand up to him. He's doing it to keep you but all it will do is push you away

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 10:00:34

I think the twitter thing was the last straw, it may seem minor but I don't need to be monitored, I'm certain he would have gone through mine and best friends twitter with a fine tooth comb, I'm waiting for little things to come out now, little digs and questions, even though there's nothing to have digs about, he'll find something.

Allergictoironing Sat 29-Dec-12 10:51:47

^ he makes arguing very hard, he breaks down and cries and makes it very difficult for me to not feel guilty if that makes sense?^
Have you ever thought he does this BECAUSE it makes you feel guilty?
If I told him it was over he would cry and probably threaten to do something stupid to himself. Another incident of him trying to guilt-trip you.

Everything you've said about him in this thread and your previous one tells us he's a controlling bastard, and he will slowly get worse over time - slowly, because that way you will get more acclimatised to his behaviours & won't realise just how bad it has got until it's too late. I've watched this happening with friends in the past, watched them slowly being cut off from all their support network & ending up virtual non-persons who can't do anything without their "D"H's approval. And these women started out smart & sassy, just ended up that way over time sad.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 29-Dec-12 10:53:55

When you dump this millstone around your neck, and get to Uni, you will absolutely kick yourself for giving this inadequate the headspace you have.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Sat 29-Dec-12 12:28:40

This predator targeted you when you were young and vulnerable. He doesn't 'love' you, he considers you something between a pet and an object, something that he owns and is entitled to punish and control.
You really do need to get away from him. DOn't worry about him killing himself, men like this love themselves far too much to do anything as useful as dying and getting out of your hair.

Longdistance Sat 29-Dec-12 12:34:03

He sounds very suffocating to me.

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 13:02:59

I don't even know how to bring this up, as far as he's concerned everything is fine :/ I'm so used to just ignoring it and getting on with it.

StuffezLaBouche Sat 29-Dec-12 13:13:49

I think you have to know in your head and heart that there is no fixing this, no making it better. Until you have accepted you need to be apart, I think any discussions you try and have will lead to you being manipulated back and him upping his tactics.

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 13:25:51

I don't think there is, we've had the same conversations over and over, it changes for maybe a month? And then goes back to before.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 29-Dec-12 13:28:31

You don't have to stay with him. You don't owe anyone a relationship.

Allergictoironing Sat 29-Dec-12 13:32:23

Of course everything is fine in his mind FrenchRuby, because you just try to get on with life while fitting in with his awful behaviour. So he gets what he wants, and you've been trained into not complaining.

Write out a list (I LOVE lists grin) of all the not-good stuff - you can use your posts on here as a starting point. Use that as the basis to tell him why you aren't happy. Then expect anything from one to all of the following list; list is unlikely to be exhaustive, I'm sure others will aff to it!

He will start to cry, & tell you that you're hurting him so please stop. Don't.
He will promise to change. He won't, or at least not in the long term.
He will pick up one tiny little aspect of one or two things on your list, and justify that to death. Then he will suggest that because he's managed to justify that one tiny little thing, everything is OK. He's then managed to turn the whole fact of him being a controlling shite into you over-reacting about something tiny.
He will tell you that you're imagining most of it, and the rest is all you over-reacting. You aren't doing either.
He will blame it all on those (insert his favorite derogatory word for non-compliant women) on MN for trying to tell you that your perfectly good marriage is bad. Or he may blame it on a family member/friend if he hasn't managed to isolate you from them all.
He may lose it & start shouting at you, though I get the impression he tends to manipulate you more by PA behaviours.

Over to you other MNers, add to the list of common ways men react to finally being stood up to.

Allergictoironing Sat 29-Dec-12 13:33:43

Ah X-posted with you. So he can't really think there's nothing wrong if you have the conversation over & over. And surely this is proof that he will never ever change (except maybe get even more controlling over time)

JustFabulous Sat 29-Dec-12 13:35:23

You don't need to bring anything up if you want out. You just tell him, you don't need his permission.

StuffezLaBouche Sat 29-Dec-12 13:35:43

He will tell you you can't cope without him, you need him. You don't.
He will make you feel ungrateful because he's been there for you through XYZ and this is how you repay him....blah blah.

StuffezLaBouche Sat 29-Dec-12 13:37:18

He will say "this is because of (your male friend) isnt it? I knew you were shagging him" etc.

Allergictoironing Sat 29-Dec-12 13:39:24

Oooh yes Stuffez, forgot those.

Oh and that you're lucky to have him as no-one else will want you. This despite him getting jealous fits & not trusting you with any other men around, funny how they never see the contradiction in this grin

Allergictoironing Sat 29-Dec-12 13:40:20

Oh and a threatened suicide too, he has previous on that one doesn't he?

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Sat 29-Dec-12 13:44:05

He doesn't trust you, wants to isolate you, is insanely jealous and has smashed your confidence in yourself as a consequence. He presumably knows your history, knows your fear of being along, sees you as vulnerable (maybe even selected you for that reason) and is exploiting your insecurity so that he's fully in control.

I'm not going to tell you to leave but experience tells me that people like this usually get worse rather than better. If they can't control you mentally, they'll have a go at doing it physically.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 29-Dec-12 13:50:41

He will become hangdog, unkempt, stop taking care of himself, say he is destroyed, that all he ever wanted was to love you

He will become "depressed" and forget to wash. He will get the gp to ssign him off work and be unable to function without you

All of these manipulations are not a reason to stay, they are a reason to go. And because of them, you must disengage and stop looking at everything from his pov

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 13:55:07

He has threatened suicide/self harm before, he has cut himself when I've not done something he wanted before (I think it was when I had a cigarette when I was out with him). He will blame it all on best friend, I can bet on it. I expect him to do all of the things you said, apart from saying I can't cope without him, he always makes himself out to be the weaker one out of us both.
My problem is that I will feel so guilty that I'll give him more chances sad it's me that's the weak one.

Allergictoironing Sat 29-Dec-12 13:59:10

Don't feel guilt, YOU aren't the one doing any of these things to him, HE is. And he is doing them for one reason only - not that he loves you, but because he knows he can control you that way.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Sat 29-Dec-12 14:02:31

You're not weak. However, he has set out to systematically screw you up, crush your spirit and make you believe that you are dependent upon him... that you couldn't do any better. It's very, very common and often gets going in earnest after the arrival of the first child.

Men like this are often very attractive to someone who is looking for security and love because they can be quite OTT to begin with.... declaring love quickly, wanting to move in together, easily upset if he thinks he might lose you... and it's easy to mistake this kind of stuff for passion. Once they have you roped in and the cage door shut, it flips over into a kind of obsession which is really suffocating and unhealthy.

So you're not weak... but you will be less strong the longer you stick around this man and keep buying his crap...

trustissues75 Sat 29-Dec-12 14:07:20

This is emotional abuse (or as Women's aid would call it - Domestic Violence). Separating you from your friends? Lying about attempting suicide? Over a cigarette?!?!?!? Not giving you privacy? Stalking you on a night out? Throwing is oh-so-very-shallow expressions of love in your face when you don't conform to HIS way of thinking, being and doing?

When are you leaving?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 29-Dec-12 14:08:08

This is the third potentially "suicidal" man I have read about in a matter of minutes.

Is there an epidemic of inadequate losers at the moment, All spitting the dummy out because they are not getting their own way?

trustissues75 Sat 29-Dec-12 14:09:27

*You're not weak. However, he has set out to systematically screw you up, crush your spirit and make you believe that you are dependent upon him... that you couldn't do any better. It's very, very common and often gets going in earnest after the arrival of the first child. "

Oh Cogit - that's right about when my own abuser started...after the birth of our first child.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Sat 29-Dec-12 14:15:37

Bearing a child makes a woman a bit more vulnerable & dependent than they were previously. Women with children will often think they have to try to 'stay together for the sake of the kids' or that they won't be able to cope alone and that can make them more tolerant of behaviour that they wouldn't have stood for previously. A normal man won't take advantage of this whereas an abusive man sees it as a big opportunity to stamp his authority on a woman..... Shocking but common.

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 14:27:42

I feel really nervous :/ I was just sat last night thinking about it all.
I refuse to do this over my birthday though, I've not had a good history with birthdays (my birth mum told me I was being put in foster care on my tenth birthday, the baby I mc'ed was due on my birthday, it's like a magnet for bad things to happen) so I'm going to wait till after New Years.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Sat 29-Dec-12 14:34:13

Wait a little before telling him it's over by all means but maybe spend the time between then and now doing a bit of preparation and research to make it an easier transition. Big changes to life are always daunting so no need to add to that fear by acting without information. Places like solicitors, Womens Aid, CAB, the benefits checker can all give you information that could stop the next phase of your life starting off as a major trauma.

'Knowledge is power'

FrenchRuby Sat 29-Dec-12 14:36:00

Thanks I will do that smile

MrsTomHardy Sat 29-Dec-12 14:47:35

Please please get rid of this abusive arsehole!

You are worth so much more.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sat 29-Dec-12 23:05:12

Yes i second that, knowledge is power. Clear your history and make sure he cant see what youve been upto. Prepare prepare and prepare.

Honestly, coming out the other side of it, is amazing. Yes i ended up financially shafted but thats a small price to pay for my freedom and the rest of my life. When you find a man that loves you and lets you and more importantly encourages you to fly its incredible.
Good luck, it will be shite (let his parents deal with the suicide threats etc) but so so so worth it. Your young and youve your life in front of you to make your own. xxxx

NettleTea Sat 29-Dec-12 23:46:28

he is so horribly controlling.
He can still be a great dad even if you seperate, and as grandmother to your kids there is no reason at all why you cannot continue to have a good relationship with your MIL.
Its often better financially to go to Uni as a single parent, you will be entitled to benefits and grants which you would not have before. And I dont believe he will actually let you go if you were with him - or he would make it so much trouble that you wouldnt be able to immerse yourself in the course the way you should - he will have your timetable up on the wall, and any time you are not at home will be questioned - the friends will be suspicious, and study time in the library wont be believed. Or he will text /call when you are in lectures.
If he threatens suicide I think the standard MN response is to call the emergency services and let them deal with it - if he is bluffing he will be too embarrassed to pull that stunt again after they give him a bollocking for wasting their time, and if he is seriousthen he needs some professional psychiatric help, which an admission to hospital will fast track him onto. And best of all, the responsibility is out of your hands.
He will go through the full gamut of human emotions to try to get you back, from weeping and wailing, promising the earth, buying you stuff, swearing love and adoration, to threats, anger, bitterness, nastyness, refusing to see the kids to hurt you, threatening to take the kids/that you are an unfit mother. Just be ready for them all, and if it gets too much see a solicitor and demand all correspondance to be through a 3rd party.
Keep all emails/texts because if he starts to get threatening or wont stop ringing you will need evidence that he is harrassing you, and that can easily be stopped. also threats of suicide need recording as may prove useful when he tries to claim you as unfit or threatens to go for full custody. (he wont want it, but will probably threaten it)

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 08:02:37

It's been really weird the past few days. On my birthday my friend said she was having problems with her dh and on the way out my dh was like 'that's not us is it?' I knew I should have said something then but I didn't want to ruin my birthday. Sine then he's been so sickly sweet it's getting annoying. He keeps talking about us moving (we were meant to be moving into MILs next October to start saving for a house) and I just don't want to talk about it but when I say that he keeps saying things like 'why don't you want to talk to me?' I know it's bad and I should talk to him but I just can't bring myself to.
I started redecorating the bathroom yesterday, a colour I wanted (really dark purple, looks really nice btw!) and he was like 'why are you doing that? We're moving out soon?' That would have been a good opertunity but I still didn't say anything.
I wanted to do the bathroom by myself, I just wanted a few hours where I could be alone but he insisted for the last hour on sitting in there and talking about New Years resolutions and us moving out and what we were going to decorate our new house like and I just didn't want to talk about it, it was really awkward and I just wanted to get on with my painting. He keeps trying to hug me all the time and I don't want him to, I know I need to say something but I just can't bring myself to.
And the wort thing was yesterday when we were on the way back from town best friend got on the bus (dh didn't notice him, I was sat at the back of the bus with ds, dh at the front with dd) and instead of going to sit next to best friend and having a chat, like most people would, I just shook my head at best friend like 'don't come over' because I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of dh getting annoyed, that's not the right reaction to have when you see your best friend.

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 09:34:58

You know that you do really need to talk to him FrenchRuby. He's clearly realised that you are emotionally disengaging from him and he's trying to draw you back in. Read all the other EA threads - going super-sweet after an EA incident is part of the script.

Try to think about why you are so reluctant to talk to him about things.

Is it fear of what he might say? Hopefully his words have less power to hurt you now.
Is it fear that he might hurt you physically? I don't get the impression that's in your mind.
Is it fear of what he might to to himself, after his previous suicide threats? Hopefully you've realised that all they are is threats, designed to bring you back in line.
Is it fear of any confrontation at all? He's conditioned you to not confront him in any way, but if you can't now then when can you?
Is it fear of the future on your own without that backup of another person you can rely on?
Is it fear of being a failure, that you haven't managed to save your marriage?
Is it fear that you won't get anyone else if you end things with him?
Is it fear that you may be making a mistake & will regret it later?

Note that all the reasons I've listed start with "fear", I don't mean shaking & terrified, just apprehension or concern. Another possible reason is that you don't want to be the one to do the dirty deed and are hoping that he'll be the one to make that decision and that way he'll be the one to "blame".

Or might it be that you know he'll try to justify his past behaviour, at the same time promise to be better, and manage to talk you into staying. Then all will be fine for a couple of months until it all starts up again.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 09:38:53

I think it's all of those things (apart from him being violent, he has never been aggressive or violent). I don't want to break his heart, I don't want to be that person sad

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 09:57:54

You might want to take each of the possible reasons I've listed, and any more you can think of, and tackle each one in your mind. Think it through as thoroughly as you can, use the comments in this threads and others where people are in a similar situation to help clarify why you have that particular fear.

An example would be the suicide threats - here & other threads so many people have said how unlikely it is that he would follow through, and he's got previous to show you that he doesn't really mean it and just says it to bring you back in line.

If you can reduce the number of reasons to NOT talk to him, you may finally get to that place where you can. And be in no doubt you do need to talk to him, or things will just get worse. If you are determined to leave him, you can't without telling him unless you suddenly pack up & leave & I very much doubt you want to do that. And if you have any thoughts of saving your marriage that can't happen until you talk to him.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 10:21:24

I think I'm most worried about how he'll react. He is being so full on atm, it's just making me really irritated.

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 10:29:29

I get accused of over-analysing situations before they happen, but this might be a good time for you to do that. What aspect of his possible reaction worries you - anger, tears or his power to self-justify? Make sure you're prepared for all of these, then use your current irritation to take one of those openings he's given you to start the talking. Try to stay dispassionate too, or he will use your rage or tears against you!

Selks Tue 01-Jan-13 10:44:57

Ruby that is such a shame that you couldn't speak to your friend because you were scared how your DP would react..that speaks volumes about the relationship don't you think?
Please don't lose your best friend over this. Maybe you could contact him to let him know why you had to blank him and that you still want to be friends.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 10:45:00

I don't want him to cry. That and I don't think he'll actually go, I think he'll refuse to leave. I don't have anywhere I can go either so I can't just leave.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 10:46:24

I text him today and he said that he didn't come and say hi because he didn't want to cause agro for me.

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 11:11:11

Remember he uses crying to manipulate you, same as the non-existant suicide attempts. He used his tears as a weapon, and deploys them to control you.

Re him refusing to leave, I'm afraid I don't know enough about the legal situation to be able to help - though I'm sure there are others here who could.
You should probably contact Womens Aid for advice on this, they can tell you about your rights & what you can claim etc. EA is a valid enough reason to be leaving him, and they will be understanding.

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 11:11:48

Oh and wine for your best frirnd, for being such a nice understanding guy!

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 01-Jan-13 11:17:00

Remember that you don't need his permission to end the marriage. You do not owe him the rest of your life. It's OK to dump a partner. If it hurts the person, tough shit, s/he will get over it. Your feelings are just as important as his, and in your case, your right to be free and live your own life completely overrides his need to own you as though you were a pet or a household appliance.
Best of luck in getting rid. Depending on the housing situation, you can either leave or buy him out or (ultimately) force him out to the extent that you can get the police to come and physically remove him. It hopefully won't come to that, but you are not powerless and you do not have to stay with him.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 11:59:34

He has phoned 3 times today saying he's going to buy me a present, then when I said not to he phoned and told me I was being weird because I didn't want a present. I feel a bit suffocated. I'm going to try and talk to him tonight.

ErikNorseman Tue 01-Jan-13 12:48:42

He's panicking because he senses you pulling away. Be prepared for him to bring out the big guns when you talk - tears, self harm, suicide threats, the works.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 12:53:39

He's jut phoned an had a go at me for being weird and not letting him buy his wife a present. I feel really sick. I'm sure that we're going to have it out tonight sad

tribpot Tue 01-Jan-13 13:00:42

Probably best you do have it out. But not a pleasant conversation - and Erik is right to be expect him to dig deep into the bag of tricks to see what it might take if you're serious about separating. He thinks all he needs to keep you in line is constant emotional pressure. Whether 'good' (presents that you don't want) or 'bad' (texting you constantly when you're out).

You will have to be hard, but you can't go on living like this.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 13:03:54

He keeps asking me what's wrong but I don't want to do this over text or phone but he won't stop askingsad

glastocat Tue 01-Jan-13 13:12:33

Stay strong and bin the loser. He sounds awful.

freeandhappy Tue 01-Jan-13 13:20:18

I would say you don't need to talk to him. Keep doing what you are doing ie detatching and not engaging. You sound like you are getting clearer minded all the time. Happy new year. Hope it's a great one for you. You are NOT responsible for his happiness. You are responsible for your happiness. When you are in his side you can't be on your own side as he is only about himself. So that's two people making sure e I ok and NO ONE looking out for you. You deserve to be love and honored and if your husband is not doing that then you must love and honor yourself.

freeandhappy Tue 01-Jan-13 13:21:09

e I = he is

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 13:47:24

He made me tell him over the phone sad he's saying he can't live without me, I feel sick and horrible sad

StuffezLaBouche Tue 01-Jan-13 13:50:43

NO! Do not get sucked in. You HAVE done the right thing. Are you ok?

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 13:52:25

No sad he's saying he can't do it. Then he said that he'll have the kids. I don't know how to get it through to him that I'm
Unhappy and I want him I leave sad

StuffezLaBouche Tue 01-Jan-13 13:54:51

Right - are you renting? Whose name is on the agreement? Brace yourself for the shit he will inevitably hurl at you - you're shagging you mate, how could you do this when he's been so lovely, etc etc. Do you have family near by?

tribpot Tue 01-Jan-13 13:55:17

How he feels is up to him. You aren't responsible for him and his actions.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 13:56:52

I have noone sad my name is on the tenancy.
He's just not accepting it.

tribpot Tue 01-Jan-13 14:00:49

You said above he makes arguing hard. So don't do it. You've made your decision, you know from past experience that it will descend into a guilt trip if you try and discuss it with him rationally.

Are you both on the tenancy? One of you has to move out.

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 14:02:14

Just me.
He's pleading and begging. I feel like shit :'(

StuffezLaBouche Tue 01-Jan-13 14:04:10

Don't feel like shit, seriously.
You just need the strength and resolve to get him out. He has to leave if your name's on the agreement. Please dont be manipulated.

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 14:07:20

Of course he's pleading & begging - where else will he find a complacent partner who will put up with his emotional abuse and be controlled?

He's spent goodness knows how long making your life pretty miserable, he has earned being kicked out. Ignore his pleading & begging, the same way he ignored your happiness for so long.

Keep re-reading the thread to remind yourself of all the times he's manipulated you in the past in this or similar ways, and how so many posters here have shown you that it's just part of the standard script of an abuser.

he's trying to manipulate you. have you told him that its over? what does he mean he'll keep dc? they are not possessions,.surely you will both continue to parent as before? he's using your dc as another manipulator to control your behavior. I would tell mil pack a bag for him and ask mil to come and get her son. he is not a good father if he's conducting his little drama in front of his children. bastardangry

FrenchRuby Tue 01-Jan-13 14:13:36

He wants to stay tonight I said he could but I'm sleeping on the sofa. He said he doesn't want to show his face at his mums but won't tell me where he'll stay.

tribpot Tue 01-Jan-13 14:43:00

Not your problem where he stays in the short term. You're falling into the trap of making it all about him.

StuffezLaBouche Tue 01-Jan-13 14:51:34

Ohhhh sad
If he stays tonight though what's to stop him staying tomorrow, then the next night, then a week...?

Agree with pregnantpause - pack a bag for him.

Allergictoironing Tue 01-Jan-13 15:12:48

And why wouldn't he want to "show his face at his mum's"? Surely if he's so wonderful & you're being so evil, his own mother would look after him. Ask him again why he couldn't go there, & press him for a real reason - 75% chance he only said that so he could stay with you & worm his way back into your good books.

TweedSlacks Tue 01-Jan-13 15:45:28

Just remind him he was really rather keen to move you all into his Mums house in the near future , and that you've ramped up the timescale to today. The other difference is he's going alone.

If he sticks around clear your browsing history if on P/C or laptop .

Just sounds like a control freak who would have you on a tether if he thought he could get away with it.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Tue 01-Jan-13 16:20:37

Hooray today is the start of the rest of your life.
Well done xxxx
Don't feel shit, your setting him free to find someone who feels as they should for him (and hopefully he can sort his life out).
Stand strong and don't back down you are doing the right thing. If you can avoid it don't let him home as he'll only keep you up all night trying to manipulate you. But obviously this could be unavoidable.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 01-Jan-13 19:43:41

If the tenancy is in your name you can simply put him out in the street. Legally, you can do this. He won't get custody of DC - he doesn't even really want custody of DC, this is just a common abusive-man threat in order to make you stay. Tell him that if he won't leave within a reasonable period (ie 48 hours) you will have the police remove him.
Don't waste another second of your life worrying about his feelings, he has lost any right to sympathy by his mistreatment of you.

You can do it. It will be a difficult few months ahead but the relief and feeling of contentment you will get when you close the door on him will be absolutely worth the difficulty.

I second giving him 24-48 hours to get out and then calling the police if he won't go. Change the locks so at least you can guarantee your space as your own.

Well done. Keep it up.

StuffezLaBouche Wed 02-Jan-13 10:00:34

How are you this morning, OP?

FrenchRuby Thu 03-Jan-13 10:56:28

I have him another chance. I know that makes me weak or whatever but I thought I'd rather do that than throw 7 years away. I told him exactly what I was feeling. I told him that I will not lose my best friend over his petty jealousy. It seemed to shake him up. He knows that this is the last time I'll be having that conversation, he either changes and it works or he doesn't and he's out. He seems to be being better. I told him that I was going out for a drink with best friend at the end of the month and he was ok with it,not that that matters, I would have gone anyway.
I've told him that when I go to uni he's not allowed to tell me who I can talk to.
I feel much better now.

FrenchRuby Thu 03-Jan-13 10:56:50

I also want to say thanks for all your advice, you really helped me.

tribpot Thu 03-Jan-13 11:01:24

^I have spoken to him so many times about it, always the same answer 'I didn't know I was doing it, I'm sorry' then the same again in a few months.

we've had the same conversations over and over, it changes for maybe a month? And then goes back to before.

My problem is that I will feel so guilty that I'll give him more chances^

You've pretty much predicted how this will go, OP. Your fear of being alone is preventing you from giving yourself a chance.

Best of luck - MN will always be here to listen.

FrenchRuby Thu 03-Jan-13 11:04:08

And I'm ok with that if that does happen. This was the first time he's ever said that if he doesn't change he'll go.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 03-Jan-13 12:12:13

See you at the end of the month, ruby

FrenchRuby Thu 03-Jan-13 12:37:43

You're probably right but this time is different, I feel different. I don't feel like I've given in, I feel like I've made the rules. If it doesn't change then I know I've tried and that it was never going to work and I'll be ok with it.

StuffezLaBouche Thu 03-Jan-13 12:57:59

You're probably right but this time is different
It makes me sad to read this, but you know we are always here. Please post any time.

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