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DD assaulted by her father

(109 Posts)
SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 19:37:46

I dropped off my DD (11) for contact with her father this afternoon, she was due to stay with him for a few days until Christmas. A couple of hours later she phoned me in hysterics asking me to pick her up, she said her dad had been verbally and physically abusive (he grabbed her by her scarf and pushed her into a wall). I am too far to go to collect her (it would take me 2 hours to get there) but a very good friend went to pick her up. She is now safe at my friend's and I will go to pick her up in the morning.

I am understandably very upset. My ex was emotionally, financially and eventually physically abusive to me when we were together and we split up when DD was a baby. I never thought he would be physically abusive to her,, otherwise I wouldn't have let her stay with him, but there had been signs lately of some emotional abuse.

Should I report this to the police? After all if a stranger had done this to her, I would. There would be no going back from this, but anyway there is no way she is going back there.

Sorry I am rambling a bit but I am all over the place right now, and just need to let it out.

ThePinkOcelot Thu 20-Dec-12 19:39:08

I would definitely report it! That is not on at all. Your poor DD, hope she's ok.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 19:42:20

she's really upset but safe, which is the main thing.
I really want to report it but wonder if I should talk it over with DD, or should I just make the decision, as the responsible adult?
I can't think straight.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Thu 20-Dec-12 19:42:34

Yes, report it. She's not going back now and, if there are any formal access agreements in place, the report will be useful in making your case. He obviously hates women - any size. Hope she's OK.

tribpot Thu 20-Dec-12 19:43:09

You need to send a very clear message to your DD that you will not tolerate violence towards her, whether from her father or any other adult.

Hope she isn't too shaken by the experience.

PorkyScratching Thu 20-Dec-12 19:45:00

Please report it, protect your daughter at all costs.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 19:45:24

Thanks for your replies, you are all right, I will report it. She needs to know this is not to be tolerated. I'll call when I feel a bit more together, I 'm very tearful right now and I don't think I'd be able to speak without bursting into tears.

izzyizin Thu 20-Dec-12 19:46:55

How far is it to your friend's home? Why can you not pick your dd up tonight? You say you're 'all over the place' but what about how she's feeling?

How often does your dd have contact with her f? Is her contact subject to any Court order?

You are best advised to make it a priority to get your dd home and report this matter to the police and, ideally, you should be doing this tonight.

izzyizin Thu 20-Dec-12 19:51:21

When you report this matter to the police they will want to speak to your dd before giving consideration to further action.

If it took you 2 hours to take your dd to her f's address, does this mean the inicident occured in a regional police authority that is different to your own?

LemonBreeland Thu 20-Dec-12 19:51:36

I think it is important that you report it for future custody issues.

perplexedpirate Thu 20-Dec-12 20:01:24

Report it. No doubt whatever.
By not reporting it you are implying its ok, and it is anything other than ok.

perplexedpirate Thu 20-Dec-12 20:02:20

Sorry, just seen you are reporting it.
Good.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 20:02:56

Izzy, I would go and collect her if I could, believe me, but she's over 2hours drive away and I've had a drink so I can't drive there, but I'll go first thing tomorrow. She is quite safe at my friend's, she's known her all her life and is friends with her children. DD normally sees her dad every other weekend, it's an informal arrangement, no court orders.

Anyway I have spoken to the police (different one from my local one, I called the local one and they put me through), I was told they will contact my friend within the hour and will also get in touch with me by phone.

Offred Thu 20-Dec-12 20:03:45

I agree why not go and get her tonight? I'm not sure I could report it without speaking to her unless I called the police straight away to pick her up. I'm not sure I could be without her either.

Offred Thu 20-Dec-12 20:04:48

Xpost. Would the police bring her back?

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 20:07:25

Believe me Offred I would be on my way already if I could, it's very upsetting not to be able to be with her. I have spoken to her a few times and she's no longer hysterical, I know my friend is taking good care of her.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 20:08:32

xpost again! I don't know if the police would bring her back, but at this point I think that would be more upsetting than staying in a familiar and comforting place with people she knows and love.

ChangingWoman Thu 20-Dec-12 20:22:31

Well done for reporting this. Whatever happens next, it sends a strong message to your daughter that her Mum is on her side and will look after her.

A relative hit me in anger when I was a teenager and my mother chose to do nothing (and prevented others from acting) in order to "keep the peace" and avoid "splitting the family". I still love her but looking back, her actions did far more psychological damage than the assault. She was not as brave and sensible as you.

tribpot Thu 20-Dec-12 20:28:01

Well said, ChangingWoman.

Offred Thu 20-Dec-12 20:30:07

Maybe! :/ awful, worst nightmare!

izzyizin Thu 20-Dec-12 21:03:05

I suggest you arrange with your local police to make a formal report tomorrow when dd is home with you.

From what you've said, it would seem that your regional police authority may need to liaise with their counterparts in your ex's area. If they interview your ex they'll pass a report to his local SS who will, in time, liaise with yours, iyswim.

cestlavielife Thu 20-Dec-12 21:36:53

you are doing the right thing. report, tell her she doesn't need to see him again. or only supervised with another adult present.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 20-Dec-12 21:47:14

Thanks for your replies, and for confirming I am doing the right thing. I never pressed charges against my ex when he assaulted me, although the police were called once, but I have regretted it ever since. This time, there is no going back.

Izzy you are spot on, that's exactly what the police told me. They've been to see DD at my friend's and had a chat with her, then they called me to say that I needed to make a formal report tomorrow with my DD, either in my ex's area or in mine.

cestlavie, she will definitely not have to see him again as long as she is in my care, unless she strongly insists and then it would only be supervised contact.

From the brief talk I've had with him and what he's told DD, he is absolutely not repentant and cannot see that he's done anything wrong, which doesn't surprise me at all. I think that actually, being arrested and told by the police that what he's done is wrong is the best thing that could happen to him.

twinklesparkles Fri 21-Dec-12 21:25:47

Hope your daughter is ok hun

What an awful situation sad

Hegsy Fri 21-Dec-12 22:24:23

How awful. Hope your daughter is ok x

NettleTea Fri 21-Dec-12 22:38:44

I think you leading the report is a good thing. It takes it out of your daughter's hands where she might feel guilty for it, or conflicted because she probably loves him as well as hating what he has done and frightened too no doubt. In addition, as others said, it firmly shows your support and protection of her, especially when she may be beginning to feel effects of any emotional abuse you referred to before. She is nearly old enough to decide to not have contact anyway. If you have no court order then you can stop contact and if he wants it he will have to apply to court for it. That will probably take her over that age where she can make the decision, so it will be out of his hands anyway. Or she could insist on supervised contact, especially given the circumstances.
hope she is OK

Yes report it! Poor DD. My ex was abusive to me but never Dc, until one week, he smacked them both excessively not just a little smack they were angry angry smacks, I had him removed from the house 2 weeks later. I lived with for 14/15 years but he touch the Dc and that was it!

Report it, for your DD!

MrsTomHardy Fri 21-Dec-12 22:44:55

You did the right thing reporting him.

Hope your DD is ok

SkaffenAmtiskaw Sat 22-Dec-12 23:29:40

DD gave a statement at our local police station today and it will be sent (hopefully) to the police force in the area where my ex lives.

Poor DD is completely heartbroken sad, she has said, he can't have loved me if he's treated me like that. She doesn't want to ever see him again. My poor baby, I feel so sad for her and so angry with him.

We've spoken lots, and I've told her a little about the abuse I suffered from her father.

I feel like a terrible mother, that I didn't prevent this from happening. I never thought he would physically assault her, but I had been having concerns over his emotional abuse of DD for a while and I dithered over stopping contact when I should have been more decisive.

FWIW op I think the fact that she got away from him, called for help, and said he mustn't love her is an indication that you have been a very good role model to her. You've taught her that abuse is never ok, even from loved ones, to ask for help if she needs it, and to be strong and brave. I think you've done a wonderful job.

tribpot Sun 23-Dec-12 00:01:32

I totally agree with thundernlightning. You had good reason to suppose he would not hurt his child, despite what he did to you (perhaps reassure her that not all domestic abusers target their children as well as their spouse) but now that an unforgiveable line has been crossed you have stepped in to defend your dd.

Women's Aid have a site for young people which your DD may want to look at.

The important thing is that she is safe now. You've done your job.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Sun 23-Dec-12 00:26:21

Thanks thunder and tribpot, it makes me feel a bit better that you think that <wobbly smile>

Thanks also for the info about the Women's Aid site for young people, I knew about it and told DD about it today. She also knows about the Childline site and knows that she can call or chat online with a counselor if she feels the need.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 13:17:03

I can't believe how hard it is to find out what is happening and to make things happen!

We reported the assault at our local police station on Saturday 22 December. By the end of the month I hadn't heard anything back, hadn't been given a crime number, only a reference number, which I thought was a bit iffy. So I phoned the police in the area where the assault took place (via 101) and nobody could tell me anything, other that there wasn't a crime number as a crime hadn't been reported. I was very surprised, as we had done just that.

I had the name and shoulder number of one of the officers that had spoken to my daughter so I gave that. He finally called me back on Sunday 6 January and told me that nothing was happening as I had decided not to take things further. Imagine my surprise, as I had never said such a thing! He said that my friend, the one who went to get my DD, had said that to him. Now I was sure she wouldn't say that, and I checked with her, she didn't. What she said was that she couldn't take the decision to press charges, that it would have to be my decision, as it was my DD who was involved, which is fair enough. So the police took it upon themselves to decide that nothing further would take place!

On the phone the police officer also told me that he wasn't aware that a report had been made. I was so upset and angry... The officer gave me the name and contact number of the officer in charge of the investigation, who is with a child protection department. He also, after I insisted that he check, found that there was a crime number and gave it to me. I have been trying to phone this child protection officer ever since, he was off sick until yesterday, and today, the number is no longer working ("the number you have called has not been recognised").

So today I phoned 101 again with the crime number, they tried to call the child protection officer, but internally it was engaged and externally they got the same message as me. They gave me the number of the crime management unit in the area concerned, who I managed to get through to, but they couldn't tell me anything either because it's a child protection matter, other that there is a note on the case for the officer in charge to call me. They also gave me the name of the superior of the officer in charge and put a note on the case for him/her also to call me.

I can't believe it's taking so long and is so difficult, I am so upset right now that I could cry (it doesn't help that I have very bad earache and am on crutches with a suspected stress fracture).

Sorry this is so long, I needed a good rant. sadangry

NicknameTaken Wed 09-Jan-13 13:24:50

Skaffen, that's appalling.

Well done for being so persistent. The good thing is that your dd isn't in any immediate danger. I take it your ex hasn't tried to have her again and he isn't alleging that you're blocking contact? In purely practical terms, that would be the danger point, when you'd want to be presenting this evidence to court.

But aside from that, how awful for the child protection officer to be so unavailable, and for the police to make false claims about you deciding not to press charges. Not acceptable at all. You can complain to the IPCC here if you feel you are not getting anywhere.

NicknameTaken Wed 09-Jan-13 13:25:45

And sorry about the earache/stress fracture. How is your dd doing, by the way? Never underestimate the importance of what you have done by showing that you are on her side and you won't accept her being mistreated.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 13:31:11

Thanks for the link Nickname, I will definitely complain.

I've had a call and a letter from SS by the way, who were concerned that I didn't want to take things further and were advising me to stop contact...

No DD's father has not been in touch to request further contact, which is good, but neither has he been in touch to find out how DD is or (heaven forbid!) to apologise, which is not so good (but sadly not surprising)

DD seems OK, after the initial chats we had she hasn't mentioned the assault or her dad again. I don't want to bring it up out of the blue, but if she does want to talk about it obviously I will be there for her.

NicknameTaken Wed 09-Jan-13 13:33:27

I really think you are doing everything right.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Wed 09-Jan-13 13:40:14

How incompetent!

GregBishopsBottomBitch Wed 09-Jan-13 13:54:51

Blimey, stupidity everywhere, Skaffen makea you get onto SS right away, to make sure they have on file you intend to and are trying to take things further and the police took it upon themselves to not proceed. SS can be right bastards.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 14:17:11

Well I've just spoken to the superior of the child protection officer, I tried the number again and it worked!

First of all he told me he'd tried to call me 20 minutes previously but there was no answer, which surprised me as I had the phone next to me as I was typing the massive post upthread. It turns out that he was trying to call my DD on her mobile! More incompetence: he also had my mobile number but that was listed as a home number confused

Anyway, that man confirmed that nothing had been happening as the initial statement taken by the reporting officers states that I don't want things to go to court. I wasn't even there! And I did say to one of the reporting officers on the phone that I wanted to take things further.

He was not aware that my daughter had given a statement at our local police. It took a while to get him to understand that, as he kept referring to the very first statement she gave to the reporting officers.

But wait, it gest better: apparently, the very long and detailed statement that my DD gave at our local police station is not admissible, and she will have to give yet another one, by video. Why I wasn't told this in the first place, I will probably never know. Apparently different police forces do things differently but come on, couldn't they have mentioned it? Couldn't the police force in my area have checked what they needed to do?

Finally, there is not even any guarantee anything will happen to my ex other than (perhaps) a police officer having a word with him, as they have to consider each case on its merits, and it is not guaranteed that they will decide to arrest him.

Now he's going to chase up the report my DD gave at our police station and get back to me at some point in the future: he was not able to give me any type of time frame.

Argh. What else could go wrong next I wonder?

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 14:19:03

Bishop, SS are well aware that I want to take things further as I took the opportunity to rant away about the police on the phone to them on Monday. They are quite happy about the situation and will no longer be involved.

mathsconundrum Wed 09-Jan-13 14:28:44

Is there a procedure to make a complaint about police handling of this? It's shocking. Police on his area need to have a record of hid abuse.

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 09-Jan-13 14:38:19

Looking on the bright side..... At least you've now made contact with the superior in child protection, they are looking at your case and they've mentioned DD giving video evidence. The objective is to get it properly on record that your DD has been assaulted so that you can drop access legitimately .... not necessarily to get your ex behind bars. Realise it must be frustrating but keep your eye on the prize rather than getting distracted by procedural problems. Good luck

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 14:46:39

Yes you are right Cogito, thanks for reminding me! (genuinely, I am not being sarcastic!)

However I'd also like for him to be shown that what he did was wrong, IYSWIM, because in his head, he was completely justified. Perhaps, if he can be shown that the law is on our side, he might get it a little bit? I am aware this is probably too optimistic though...

OhWesternWind Wed 09-Jan-13 14:48:31

I've PMed you.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 14:51:08

Thanks OWW, I've replied.

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 15:02:58

At least it's all on record if you need to battle it out about contact.

IMO this is exactly why abusive men should not be allowed unsupervised contact with their children, ever. Quite often they start off with supervised and work towards unsupervised, which is then granted. This completely fails to take into account that abuse is about power and entitlement, not anger. As children get older and naturally more autonomous from their parents, the abusive person sees that as a direct attack on their authority, whereas young children are naturally much more acquiescent.

I've seen so many cases of abusive men who allowed unsupervised contact because they are 'great' dads who have gone on to assault their children often years after separating from the mother.

Abusers don't change and always prey on the vulnerable - who more so than a child. And given the facts that 75% of child abuse takes place in a context of DV and that something like only 5% of abusers successfully change, it's a travesty that we prioritise contact over the welfare of children.

NicknameTaken Wed 09-Jan-13 15:03:05

Skaffen, I don't think he'll ever get it. Even if he was prosecuted, he'd just say your dd exaggerated, or the law is too pc these days, or something. Abusive people often have very strong mental defences against ever accepting that they might be doing the wrong thing. I'm not saying that to discourage you from taking the case further, just saying not to expect any sudden breakthrough in understanding on his part.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 15:03:43

My DD has already given 2 statements: one shortly after the assault took place, to the reporting officers (the ones that decided I didn't want to take things further), one at the local police station.

I am worried that she might not want to give yet another statement, as she would have to then relive what happened, which must be horrible for her.

If she does accept to give a video statement, she's already told me that her second statement was less detailed than the first one because she had forgotten some things, presumably her brain is making her forget to protect itself (or something like that), and that was less than 48h after the assault took place. So it is possible she might have forgotten even more when/if she is asked to give a video statement at some unspecified point in the future.

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 09-Jan-13 15:08:36

Why not get her to write it all down now while it's still relatively fresh and you're in a nice safe environment... then just read it out for the video statement?

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 15:09:20

I'd say it's unlikely to go to court and you should be prepared for that. For your DD that's probably a good thing because it will spare her the ordeal. If you hadn't pursued it, that could be damaging, but your actions in trying to get it taken seriously have more than amply demonstrated that his behaviour is completely unacceptable and that she doesn't have to tolerate it. Plus it's all on record, which is useful ammunition for the future, if needed.

I'd say you've done good even if it's all dropped. smile

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 09-Jan-13 15:10:05

Call it an aide memoire...

Susan2kids Wed 09-Jan-13 15:20:17

Please do not make a knee jerk reaction based on the ill informed utterances of mothers here... i do sympathise...I have worked in the legal profession for many years......but..... you need to be very careful especially if he has visitation rights. You have NO evidence that this happened. If you report to the police you should take your DD and allow her to make her own statement and be very very careful that you do not lead her in any way since you will be regarded as hostile, making unfounded allegations can stand against you in a custody hearing if one occurs. unfortunately it is not uncommon to see such accussations made falsely by ex partners or by children who simply didn't get their own way. Im not saying that It did not happen but you need to be very level headed and clear in your treatment of the issue. You cannot simply unilaterally stop contact between your daughter and the father (unless you have sole custody).

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 15:28:38

If you work in the legal profession you should know that it's residency, not custody and has been for some time. hmm

OP has already taken her DD in to make a statement. There is no question of leading questions or planting information.

And while the OP may have 'NO evidence that this happened' it is vitally, vitally important for victims of abuse that they are believed. The OP is being a fabulous mother and a decent human being by believing her DD unequivocally.

Sadly though, you are right about her possibly being regarded as hostile - the fact that many women who have failed to report abuse to the police (and so have no evidence) are regarded as making false accusations is why that is. She is protecting herself and her DD by acting on this immediately.

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 15:30:47

'ill informed utterances of mothers here' is so misogynistic and rude. Did you intend it to be?

Do you believe women lie routinely about abuse? Why? Because they are women? There is no evidence that false reporting of abuse is any higher than of any other crime. Which means that most reports are genuine. Lack of evidence does not = no crime.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 15:44:37

Dahlen, with hindsight I completely agree with you and I feel terribly guilty that I allowed unsupervised contact to take place. I didn't think he would do such a terrible think but of course you are completely right. After all, he never accepted that what he did to me was abuse either, as he never hit me with his fist... Sadly I didn't press charges against him at the time, and I should have let me fight in the courts for access.

Nickname, I fear that you are right too, no, I know that you are right too, as evidenced by what I said in the paragraph above.

I've no intention of giving up though, I'll go as far as I can. And will make a complaint about the way the whole thing's been handled

zippey Wed 09-Jan-13 15:44:58

The goal should be to get your child to realise that assault should be taken seriously and that the assailant should be held responsible. Your dealings with the police have been less than diserable.

Can I ask, you say in your post above that SS are aware you want to take things further. Is this what your daughter wants as well?

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 15:47:25

I'm just going to ignore Susan otherwise I might just get very very rude angry

Everyone else, thanks for your advice and support, it means a lot to me.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 15:49:46

My DD was asked by the police officer who interviewed her if she would be willing to testify in court and she replied that yes, she would. I don't think she fully grasp what it implies though.

GregBishopsBottomBitch Wed 09-Jan-13 15:50:30

Susan Her DD did make her own report, without her mother there, are you actually suggesting that the OP forces her to have contact with her father after she claims he assaulted her, this is when the DD was with her father, far away from her mother, and DD called her, my daughters word would be enough for me, especially since the exp has been aggressive to herself too.

Susan2kids Wed 09-Jan-13 15:53:45

Dahlen, im using the commonly recognised term both here and in the US a term that is still used in courts here. As you would know. I can use residency if you wish but that tends to confuse people.

She also did not act immediately, acting immediately would have been phoning the police as soon as the daughter called her and asking them to go to the daughter. There has been a delay and that will inevitably lead any proposition lawyer to suggest the OP may have coached her child. I do not condone this behaviour but it is a fact.

I also think you need to work on your understanding of the word misogynistic... it doesn't actually comprise an argument in and of itself and since what I discussed is in no way the province of 'maleness' it is not relevant. Nor does your attempt to derail the thread by suggesting I somehow think all women are rude have anything to do with anything i wrote. I suggested that some of the mothers on this board are ill informed. They are. Im a mother ive been ill informed myself.

Some mothers on this site routinely give quite violent reactive commentary on this type of question.....its been better on this thread..... however some are supporting her suggestion that her daughter 'won't be going back' im just pointing out that this is ill informed.

This is not the same as saying that the allegations she makes are not correct. Whilst her reaction is understandable one should always advise people to be very careful when they are accusing someone of a crime they did not witness.

Lastly your statement that 'most reports are genuine' cannot in anyway be proven, it is an assumption...which whilst it may well be accurate should not be represented as FACT which you did. Again I would call that ill informed. Anyone who has worked for anytime in any school will tell you that children falsely accusing adults of abuse is tragically commonplace these days, shockingly so, denying that this is the case is pointless.....if you don't believe me you can watch the recent wide access documentary on schools called "Educating Essex". In which it happens on more than one occassion right in fromnt of the cameras and all quite falsely. None of this is a comment on the OP and I am quite willing to believe she is completely accurate....I dont find that a reason to misrepresent the truth about how to approach such a difficult matter. As you will see I encouraged the late report that was made but advised her not to be seen to be leading the daughter on the interview or any subsequent one to PROTECT both her and her daughters case.

GregBishopsBottomBitch Wed 09-Jan-13 15:57:15

Oh so you do suggest forcing an 11 year old to see her father who she says assaulted her, well done.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 15:58:06

Susan, I did act immediately by asking my friend to collect my daughter. My first priority was for my DD's safety. Maybe I should have called the police straight away, to be honest I was all over the place and couldn't think straight. I knew my friend would go there without delay, and my DD would be safe with her. I did call the police as soon as she was in a place of safety. If that counts against me in a court of law, then so be it, but I don't think I did anything wrong.

Susan2kids Wed 09-Jan-13 16:00:18

Susan Her DD did make her own report, without her mother there, are you actually suggesting that the OP forces her to have contact with her father.

Not at all and your assumption that i did is incorrect and borderline offensive. It is however a bad idea to tell her daughter that she will never be going back for the above listed reasons. One moment in court where the child tells people the mothers been saying this and she risks being accused of poisoning her child by the opposition lawyer. It is neccessary to act calmly and cooly in these circumstances and not knee jerk in reaction in an accusatory manner.... as you just did.

I do however apologise, i am new to this board an had not realised that the thread had moved on from the OP and shed already been to the police (as I advised) and appears to have acted in the manner I advised. I am however suprised that honest acccurate advice has led to me being attacked on the basis not of what I said but of what two posters decided to imply. No where did i suggest that she shouldnt take her daughters word either....but of course its easier to attack someone if you pretend they said someting outrageous isnt it?

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:01:39

Susan, saying that my daughter will not be going back is not ill-informed, it's a fact.

There was never a court order for contact, it was all done informally.

Furthermore he doesn't have parental responsibility (yes I am sure of that. I'd been badgering him for years to apply for it. So glad he didn't now!).

She will no longer have any unsupervised contact with him until she is an adult and can decide for herself. This much I can guarantee.

GregBishopsBottomBitch Wed 09-Jan-13 16:03:43

Also at the age of 11, i think shes entitled to state if she wants to see him again.

Susan2kids Wed 09-Jan-13 16:04:27

Skaffen, no problem, im not criticising your actions but simply trying to give an honest answer to your question. As explained I am new to the boards and when i originally posted i did not realise you had already been to the police and acted in the manner i advised. I apologise for confusion. Please do not concern yourself to much on not going immeadiately to the police. It will not automatically count against you that you did not go straight to the police but is the kind of thing the prosecution would raise in counter argument.

Susan2kids Wed 09-Jan-13 16:06:27

"Susan, saying that my daughter will not be going back is not ill-informed, it's a fact. " Thats nice. Of course you are aware of whether your partner will apply for custody/residence and his tempremant, I am not hence my advice. He could do this he could win. Thats a fact.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:07:21

Well then Susan, I suggest you read the whole thread, not just the OP, before you post a reply (not just on this thread, for any thread on mumsnet) as things do move on. Futhermore it is extremely rude and inflammatory to refer to "knee jerk reaction based on the ill informed utterances of mothers here" especially if you are new to mumsnet. All in all, on these boards people are very helpful and well-informed.

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 16:09:11

Because TV documentaries are a peer-approved, completely accurate representation of the facts. Silly me. hmm

I never said most reports are genuine FACT. But the FACTS are that PROVEN cases of false reporting are no higher for abuse than for any other crime. Somewhere in the region of 10%. Draw your own conclusions. Don't forget to factor in that most abuse is not reported because it's a hidden crime.

I stand by my assertion that your statement was misogynistic. Why the need to use the word mothers? It's superfluous and potentially inaccurate becasue you have no way of knowing what gender any of these posters are. You assumed. Why the dismissive use of the word 'utterances'? Why not, "Please get independent legal advice. Some of the advice given on this thread may be inaccurate." Combined, this very much implies "silly women who don't know what they're talking about." While that may not be technically misogynistic (in the sense that it's not systematic and institutional hatred of women), I'd say it's pretty scathing of women.

Finally, if the OP has already been advised by CP officers NOT to let her DD have contact with her father then she runs the very real risk of being accused of "failure to protect" if she ignores it. That, in conjunction with the terrible crime of believing her DD and so believing that her DD could be at risk if she goes back, is far more pressing than worrying about some hypothetical residency case in the future where someone may accuse her of false accusations.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:10:23

Sorry x-post again. He may well apply for contact or even for residence, although I seriously doubt it. If he does he may well be granted contact but I seriously doubt he would be granted residency. If he does get granted contact, he will not get unsupervised contact, unless it is over my dead body. And yes, that's a fact.

MsHighwater Wed 09-Jan-13 16:12:13

Susan, a word to the wise since you admit you are new to the boards. Mumsnet is used by a good number of men and a good many women who are not mothers. Not every poster who responded to the OP identified themselves as mothers. Your use of the term "ill-informed mothers" therefore came across as rude and misogynistic. It was not necessary to say "mothers". "Posters" would have done.

Also, if you want to come across as an expert in any topic, don't patronise your audience by using terms that are not accurate just because you think they are "widely understood". There are plenty of experts on Mumsnet.

Hope this helps.

soulresolution Wed 09-Jan-13 16:12:27

skaffen I'm really horrified to see how badly the police have handled this so far. I thought they were supposed to be making DV a priority?

I think you have done everything right - even in allowing your daughter to continue contact with her Father: you had the best intentions to try to maintain their relationship and it is his responsibility that he has betrayed her.

I wouldn't bother engaging further with the troll, you really don't need that crap on top of everything else.

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 16:14:33

"He could win" is not a fact, it's a statement of probability. It's also unlikely, since courts rarely change residency arrangements unless it can be adequately demonstrated that a child is at risk of significant harm remaining where they are.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:16:56

soul, apparently this is not classified as DV according to the police. It's a child protection matter, but not DV.

And you are right, I will ignore the troll, as I intended to after its first post!

GregBishopsBottomBitch Wed 09-Jan-13 16:18:38

To add that SS has also been in contact to suggest a halt of contact, suggests that they took it seriously but are allowing the police to deal with it.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Wed 09-Jan-13 16:21:54

A man who has a record of abusing his partner and his daughter will NOT get custody of an 11-year-old girl against her wishes and those of her mother. Don't worry Skaffen, that certainly won't happen.

However, I do agree that you should complain about the police dicking around with your statements. There was, last year, a case of a particular police officer who suppressed the statements and distorted the evidence in rape cases - though his motives were not explained it occurred to me that he was either a rapist himself or some sort of MRA nut who didn't think rape should be a crime at all, and there are some police officers who hate women and consider them all to be liars.

Susan2kids Wed 09-Jan-13 16:22:01

Dahlen,

I am slightly aware that as a newcomer I may be feeding a resident troll but.

You said

"Which means that most reports are genuine." That's a complete sentence and a statement of fact. That is not a conclusion you can draw from the data you presented. Hence it is an incorrect statement. It does not MEAN that at all. If you don't like it I suggest you learn to express yourself more accurately in future.

I have communicated with the OP who is far more grounded than you, is aware of her situation and seems to have acted well..

Secondly You can decide that an open documentary which clearly shows children accusing teachers of abuse which later needs to be PROVEN incorrect with CCTV is made up if you like. Perhaps some time talking to some teachers would convince you but I doubt it....you can live in denial of the reality we live in if you wish.

Im sorry you think the word utterance is dismissive, it does not carry that connotation. Hence I can only assume you are looking for offence.

soulresolution Wed 09-Jan-13 16:23:09

Oh - not properly familiar with the area but I would have thought it was a fine line between. Is DV only relevant to adults? Either way, child protection or DV, I would have expected it to have much higher priority than they seem to have given it. Their confusion over your very straightforward request to take things further is unacceptable.

Clever at hooking you in, those trolls... (crap at everything else tho')

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:25:10

Don't worry SGB I will complain! I'm just wondering whether to complain straight away, or to way until they've dealt with things? I can see pros and cons for both approaches.

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 16:28:10

I never said it was made up. I said it wasn't peer reviewed and therefore not completely representative. I have no problem believing that children make up accusations against teachers. Not quite comparable to making it up against one's own father though.

You have been told by posters other than me that your post was dismissive and unpleasant. I am not looking for offence. It was already there.

I am not going to reply to any more of your posts as I am too busy floating around in my blissful state of ungroundedness where I believe most children who make claims of abuse are telling the truth and mothers who try to protect them are ill-informed. Shame on me. grin

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 16:30:14

Sorry for the derailment Skaffen.

I think in your situation I'd make an informal complaint to the police first. Find out the name of the Sargeant on duty at the time the initial complaint was made and email him/her first. State it's informal and you have no wish to take it further if they can satisfy you things are being dealt with properly. That way you have a written record if they continue to mess you about, but you give them the opportunity to save face by resurrecting the case and dealing with it properly - win/win.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:32:49

Thanks Dahlen, that seems like a nice sensible approach. How do I find out who was the sergeant on duty? I presume you mean when I first called the police? Do you mean the officers who attended at the time?

mrsL1984 Wed 09-Jan-13 16:35:12

i dont have any experience on this, but just wanted to say well done for sticking up for ur girl, like any mother would!! i personally dont understand where the rozzers come from half the time. to me a person being assaulted is abuse regardless who is hit by who, or who is verbally assaulted by who although i do understand why its child protection issue. i see upthread people commenting that your girlie is in a position to make her own choices! im glad to see that people are doing there upmost to keep there kids safe in a world thats full of politcally incorrectness!!

WELL DONE MRS OP!!!

Dahlen Wed 09-Jan-13 16:36:59

If you know the names of the officers who first came out to your DD, and have the time and date they attended, a call to your local constabulary should be able to get your their Sergeant's name.

Good luck.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:40:01

I only have the name of one of the officers, but I have both their "shoulder numbers". I'll give it a go!

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 16:40:57

oh, and thanks mrsL blush

Ilovefluffysheep Wed 09-Jan-13 18:45:16

I am a police officer, and just wanted to offer some help as to why this has turned into a bit of a nightmare!

Incidents that happened in different force areas are a total pain in the butt to report. You would think it would be easy, but it isn't. As an example - you live in London, and went to Liverpool for the weekend. Whilst there you were assaulted. You were unable to report it at the time due to getting medical attention, then having to return to London. You would think that you could walk into your local police station in London and it would be dealt with simply?

No!!

Option a) Your local station refuses to take any details at all as it didn't happen in their force area. They tell you you go and phone Liverpool Police.

Option b) Your local station are quite helpful, take the report and even take a statement from you, then tell you that all the paperwork will be sent to Liverpool. From there you either 1) Never hear anything from Liverpool and they deny ever receiving anything, and your local police can't help as they say they sent it, 2) Keep chasing Liverpool and about 3 months later they eventually receive the paperwork, or 3) some kind of variation of 1 and 2 put together.

Option c) Your local station are semi helpful, take a crime report, but don't take a statement, then tell you it will be sent to Liverpool as per option b). problem with this is that Liverpool need a statement, they are unlikely to be allowed to come to London to take it, so then there is a stand off between Liverpool and London to get the statement done.

If you think this is a joke, sadly its not. Is it right - definitely not.

Anyway, please keep chasing, start mentioning complaints, and something might start to happen. You shouldn't need to complain, but sadly it helps. Supervisors don't like complaints, as then they actually have to do some work!

Can I ask a question - the second statement your daughter did, were you there? If not, was another adult? Anyone under 17 needs an appropriate adult with them. Depending on her age (I think you said she was 11?) it is perfectly acceptable to do a written statement, but most forces and child protection cases do like to do a video interview instead. However, if a statement has already been given and covers everything, there should be no need to do this as her evidence has already been covered in the written statement.

Please perservere with this. As a service we do get it wrong (more often than we should sadly) but as I say, with resources cut to the bare bone, it is only those that shout the loudest that get heard, so keep complaining until you get somewhere.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 21:16:03

Thanks Ilove, that's extremely helpful.

So far as I understand from what you said, the second statement that my daughter gave should be acceptable as I was there and she shouldn't need to give a video interview. I've asked her about this and she has no objections to giving yet another statement, just said that she's forgotten a lot of the detail, which is completely understandable.

I think what's likely to have happened is something like your option b), where our local station was very helpful and took the statement. However (and I didn't mention that in my OP I don't think) they then didn't seem to know where to send the statement, which I did find worrying. I had to supply them with the name and shoulder number of the reporting officer, who said later that he had not heard from my local force and even less received anything...

I will continue making a nuisance of myself by phoning regularly for updates (very politely!) and will also start a complaint procedure, in the hope to get somewhere with this.

LilyontheLeaf Wed 09-Jan-13 22:04:10

Hi OP,

Can I second what Ilove said about the statement - your daughter's first two statements, if made in the presence of an AA and with a declaration of truth signed by all relevant parties is definitely admissible in court.

It is often best practice to get a video ABE ("Achieving Best Evidence" - effectively an interview with the child that it taped) but this is by no means mandatory.

It is also usual (although not mandatory) that the police undertake a "truth and lies" exercise with the young person - a series of exercises to determine whether they know the difference between a truth and a lie.

If I were you, I would establish whether charging advice has been sought in respect of this case before you subject your poor girl to more questioning. The police/CPS will have all the information they need from the first statements. Are going to charge him or not? You have a right to the details of the charging decision, and if no further action is to be taken, an explanation.

Hope that Helps.

Skaffen, I have no advice to add or experience to share but wanted to commend you for your strength/perseverance/support of your DD. Sounds like she is coping ok - hope that continues to be the case.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Wed 09-Jan-13 22:40:41

Thanks Hearts, I know I am biased as her mum, but she is really a lovely, lovely girl and I can't understand how anyone could treat her like this, least of all her father. She seems to be coping at the moment, she was quite pleased to get back to school and see all her mates again.

And thanks also lily, that's useful information about charging advice, I will make sure I ask about that.

NicknameTaken Thu 10-Jan-13 10:28:34

Skaffen, in case you are feeling guilty about allowing unsupervised contact, I just wanted to say DON'T. While I agree with everything Dahlen says about it being wrong for abusive men to have unsupervised contact, in practice, it's very, very difficult to prevent it until such time as some harm can be shown. The resident parent's belief that harm is likely doesn't amount to very much. You could have fought unsupervised contact for years, lost a pile of money, gained a reputation (unfairly) for being hostile to contact, and not made any difference at all.

And although this was shocking for your dd, she knows what her father is really like now. She understands why contact can't go ahead. She is not romanticizing an absent father, or longing for contact that she dreams might be wonderful. Even though it was a bad experience, it was mitigated by the fact that she was believed and supported and that it was made extremely clear that it's not okay for her to be treated like that. It's not a tragedy that events have unfolded like this.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 10-Jan-13 10:58:36

Nickname, what you say in your second paragraph about not romanticising an absent father etc is exactly why I allowed contact in the first place. So thanks!

NicknameTaken Thu 10-Jan-13 11:45:25

Even with the way things turned out, I don't think it was the wrong decision to make. We can't wrap our dcs up in cotton wool; we can only give them the tools to deal with problems when they arise.

(Blatantly stolen from wise advice another poster gave me!)

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 10-Jan-13 13:01:14

Well finding out the name of the sergeant on duty at the time the assault was reported is not easy!

I phoned 101 but all they could give me was the phone number of the police station. Nobody answers that phone, I've tried and tried and tried, letting it ring for ages (until I'm disconnected). There is no answerphone. I guess they are all too busy to answer the phone.

I have sent an email enquiry to the police station in question asking for the name and/or email address of the sergeant in question, hopefully someone will get back to me with some useful information.

On the positive side, I have phoned the police officer at our local police station who took the statement from DD, and she said that the child protection officer I spoke to yesterday has called her and has now been sent my DD's statement. So now hopefully things should start moving!

auntmargaret Thu 10-Jan-13 13:29:58

Skaffen, have been following the thread. I'm in Scotland so it might be slightly different, but whenever I need to progress a crime report (I work in criminal justice) and I feel the officers involved are body swerving it, I write to the Divisional Commander (in charge of that police area) and I cc it to the Chief Constable of the whole force. It always gets results. Good luck, hope your DD is feeling better.

Ilovefluffysheep Thu 10-Jan-13 14:32:44

If you can't find out the name of the Sergeant, phone up the control room, and tell them you want to make a complaint to the Inspector. It should get resolved fairly quickly after that (with a bit of luck!).

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 10-Jan-13 14:33:42

Have just had a call from the child protection officer and he's read my DD's statement, reviewed the case with his superior and they are not going to take it further. It is common assault but not serious enough to justify arresting the bastard. Also because DD will not be having any further contact with him she is no longer at risk. The police officer is going to call him though, to let him know that the assault is on record.

I am a bit gutted that he won't even get his fingers rapped, I have to say, but I understand why they can't do any more. At least it's on record in case I need it in the future.

I'll still be complaining about the way it's been handled and how long it took to get there though, I've had to spend so much time on the phone to make sure something was happening, I don't think that's right.

I want to thank everyone who gave me advice and support on this thread, it's been invaluable and very very helpful thanks

GregBishopsBottomBitch Thu 10-Jan-13 14:40:55

Atleast, its on record and SS are aware, just incase he tries something, you never know with bullies.

Dahlen Thu 10-Jan-13 15:06:23

I know it's disappointing and might seem like he's got away with it, but like you say, it's all on record and you have your justification (if ever needed) for stopping contact. More importantly, your DD is safe, and she's seen you champion her interests. That will have a really positive effect on your relationship that will only become more apparent over time. You should feel proud of yourself. smile

cestlavielife Thu 10-Jan-13 15:25:17

i think that was expected outcome tbh - as no obvious injuries eg if she had ended up in hospital with recorded injuries might have been different....

so long as dd safe and it is on record and she knows she doesnt have to see him unsupervised, ever, then that is what counts.

dyu think he will come asking to see her again in few weeks/months?

SkaffenAmtiskaw Thu 10-Jan-13 15:34:42

Yes I suppose you're right cestlavie! I hope he will not come asking to see her again at anytime in the future, but if he does he will get short thrift! He might try to get indirect contact via his niece, who my DD is quite close to. She doesn't know what's happened yet as she's away but I'll let her know as soon as she gets in touch.

NicknameTaken Fri 11-Jan-13 10:23:26

It's frustrating that it didn't get taken any further, but having the assault on the official record is hugely useful.

Depending on what your dd wants, indirect contact mediated through a third party isn't necessarily a bad thing. But if she doesn't want further contact at this point, I don't think he should be allowed to insist on it.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Fri 11-Jan-13 21:22:58

Indeed Nickname, that's how I'm seeing it. DD doesn't want any contact with her dad, she's even deleted his number from her phone (unprompted). Having said that, and knowing him, it's very unlikely that he will insist on contact. Now I must remember to check if the maintenance payment comes through this month, if not, I'll be making a claim via the CSA!

mummytime Fri 11-Jan-13 21:31:27

Do remember contact is supposed to be for the benefit of the child, not the parent. So please do fight as much as you can for her right not too see her father if she doesn't want to.

SkaffenAmtiskaw Fri 11-Jan-13 21:48:54

Don't worry mummytime, as I said upthread, over my dead body!

SkaffenAmtiskaw Fri 11-Jan-13 23:05:18

I understand a lot better what many of you have been telling me with regard to contact, after reading a thread where the OP's eldest child, younger than mine, has been assaulted by the violent ex-H and he still has 15 h court-ordered contact per fortnight, that is just so awful. I feel fortunate in that my ex is very unlikely to insist on contact.

GregBishopsBottomBitch Fri 11-Jan-13 23:11:34

Skaffen Whatever judge ordered that contact, needs to be removed from his position, thats disgusting, its like insisting a pedophile is allowed contact with the victim.

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