Mumsnet Talk

I don't want to offend anyone here.

This is a genuine question, I would like to know why a woman would try to police a man who has been/might be/is being unfaithful. I'm not a journalist and anyone who's seen my many posts will know that.

I just can't identify with this: why is it worth the effort? What's the point? If someone wants to do this, why would their partner still want them?

And if you do avert an affair, or make one end, isn't it a pyrrhic victory?

If there are kids involved, I almost get it. But two people are responsible for keeping a family together and cheating on your children's mum makes someone a crap dad as well as a crap partner IMO. Why would anyone want to stay with someone who was so thoughtless and disrespectful? Whether it's someone who is 'at it' whenever he gets the chance, or a partner who seems to have fallen in love with someone else who is a genuine threat... why bother trying to 'keep' them or pull them into line?

Maybe it's a (misplaced) feeling that if you don't try to stop him, it's you giving up on the relationship, rather than it being him?

I don't understand it.

However I have never been in the position of being cheated on so probably am in no position to comment.

A friend caught her DH out in an affair; even before that happened she has always kept him on a short leash, she's actively prevented him from having female friends and he only sees his male friends infrequently when she agrees to it. She has checked his emails and FB for years, and his phone. Since the affair she now has something set up on his phone so she can see every call he makes and every text sent and received. She speaks to him before he starts work, when he finishes and whilst he's there to be sure he's where he's meant to be at all times.

It doesn't seem much of a way to live tbh, obviously it's her choice but I couldn't do it.

Do you think every woman who cheats while in a relationship is a crap mum then OP?

Because they bloody need it!

Sorry, have read op, will get back to you.

Ok read it, agree that must be a horrible way to live. Just soul destroying.

I think probably because she falls madly in love with him, she wants it to be happy ever after.

He cheats.

She finds out and is devastated.

She wants to make it work, especially if she has kids with him.

Tries to give him another chance but is driven a bit demented by the whole thing.

Good thread. I can't imagine. I did do it for a few weeks after my h finally admitted his long term internet infidelity but I soon came to my senses. I realised that I would know anyway by his general crap behaviour if it ever returned and would throw in the towel. 20 years or not.

It doesn't seem much of a way to live tbh, obviously it's her choice but I couldn't do it.

If I were him, I'd have baled out yearsago - that is no way to live. If the wife can't get past it then there is no relationhsip. pair of them a living a poor existance.

Do you think every woman who cheats while in a relationship is a crap mum then OP?

That's a good question and it's made me think...and I think the answer would be 'no'. But I suppose my OP was a bit crudely worded, because I don't think every man that cheats is a bad dad, either.

Some people cheat because a relationship has broken down and they are terribly unhappy, and I have some sympathy with those people. Though of course it is better to just leave (as I have, fwiw).

I guess in my original post I'm talking about those situations where one partner polices the other because they just can't trust them or are pathogically insecure. By definition they want to 'keep' them, hence the policing. Like Velvetspoon's friend.

But I think any relationship where someone cheats is kind of by definition not a good relationship. And any relationship where one partner feels the need to police the other is unhealthy.

Does that make sense?

I suppose once your partner has cheated, and you both decided to try to make a go of it, then the person who has cheated is going to be understandably very wary. So may choose to start to keep tabs.
But agree, that it does not seem a very healthy thing to do long term.

But I think any relationship where someone cheats is kind of by definition not a good relationship.

Actually that's probably a bit sweeping as well. I accept that there can be good relationships where someone makes a stupid mistake, eg when v drunk after a Xmas party, etc and regrets it terribly.

I just find the idea of having to keep someone 'on a short leash' so crazy... and it must be terribly wearing. I don't think I would ever do this...

I don't think people who cheat are by default bad parents, but they aren't thinking of the shitstorm their actions will wreak on their kids if a divorce is a result of it.

I think people cheat for all sorts of reasons and not just because they are in bad relationships. It's mostly because as individuals they are weak, selfish and are sometimes at a vulnerable point in their lives.

Policing someone's behaviour is a waste of time though and is the wrong approach. If someone wants to cheat, they will.

Intresting question op.

I made a brief attempt to stop my ex cheating when I knew he was on the cusp of it

I suppose I couldnt stand the feeling of loss of control over my life or face the eventual humiliation and pain.

Looking back it makes no sense as I didnt even like him, let alone love him.

Self preservation maybe? Protecting my dc?

For me - keeping them on a "short leash" inherently means you don't trust them - in which case the relationship is done, unless counselling is underway.

I don't think people who cheat are by default bad parents

No, nor do I. I agree completely with this.

But I think someone who habitually cheats on the mother (or father) of their children is letting down their kids as well somehow because they are not showing due respect to the other parent or the family unit.

But I didn't really start this thread to examine the whys and wherefores of why people with children stay together when one partner has been unfaithful, because I understand why and how children complicate the issue and the pressure to keep the family unit together.

But a lot of people who don't have kids, and aren't even married (so do not have all the legal and possibly religious, depending on the individuals, aspects to consider) will keep their partner 'on a short leash' and try to avert cheating.

And I really don't get this and would like to understand the mentality. I'm not judging anyone, it's just such anathema to me and I thought it would be an interesting thread to hear others' perspectives.

An ego that has become over inflated as compensation for feelings of inferiority or insecurity can lead to possessiveness and a desire to control one's romantic partners and others in general.

I couldn't be kept on a short leash and I'd have no respect for anyone who allowed themselves to be restrained in this manner.

I'm just going to post and run for now, as I can feel an urge to write at length and get involved - and I'm shattered!

I did it. To try and summarise a fairly nasty layer-cake of underlying causes: I was raised to believe that all men cheat given the chance, and all women would try to 'lead men astray'. Despite knowing these were fucked-up values, and having rejected them intellectually, the beliefs were still immensely strong. Consequentially, I chose partners who were liable to cheat and lie - it was what I expected and, basically, I didn't believe there was any other sort.

Said underlying values naturally led to my being suspicious, even when a more secure wife wouldn't be. Although I had/have a sophisticated arsenal of subtle policing techniques, the men I chose were alert to my suspicions because they did, in fact, have something to hide. Have I lost you yet?!

There were lots of rows, of course. My beliefs said "He will cheat if he gets the chance, and it's up to me to try and stop him." Daft, but that's the way my parents operated and, tbh, stories in the media tend to support their view. A woman's job is to be so fabulous a wife that her man can't find any better, and so efficient a guard that he doesn't get much chance to look

Obviously, normal life provides endless opportunities to cheat. I couldn't police them all without locking him in the cellar. Despite knowing this and being logically calm about it, I was in constant torment underneath. It didn't help that my partners were, in fact, lying. Thanks to all the suppression, fear and self-control over my urge to police the relationship, I didn't have any proper functional means to deal with fairly obvious dishonesty. I just got more and more fearful, veering wildly between denial and accusation.

The second Mr Garlic was a horrendous game-player. I now believe he enjoyed seeing how far he could push my denial and how guilty he could make me feel for doubting him. The bastard. It worked, and was utterly horrible. I felt completely trapped. What was really trapping me was the inherited belief system - he played on it, abusively - but I didn't see that until some time after we divorced.

Wow, amazing post, garlic. Thanks very much for sharing that.

It's a very interesting idea, that policers and those policed somehow feed off each other, and the pathologically mendacious/duplicitous enjoy creating insecurity and are attracted to those who are already insecure.

she's actively prevented him from having female friends

Your friend, Velvetspoon. That is interesting too... and he did end up cheating, so I guess she had instincts that were right. A bit like 'garlic*'s situation.

It doesn't always work like that. I had a great male friend at University. We were really close but there was never any frisson or attraction on either side. I 'lost' him as a friend when he met his later wife. He told me when we made contact again a few years ago that he knew as soon as she and I met that he wouldn't be able to be friends with me any more. He didn't have any other close female friends, so it wasn't me specifically.

I don't get this either. He definitely wasn't a potential cheat. He and I are friends again now and have the occasional lunch - she tragically died of breast ca six years ago. And he hasn't been with anyone else since.

izzy your post is succinct and also insightful. There is a really interesting website that talks about a particular personality in relationships who the writer calls 'the loser', who is basically someone who is very controlling and wants to own their partner. (I think I read it from a link from MN, actually). It's very extreme and I think the profile has traits from certain personality disorders (borderline and narcissistic).

But there are lots of women who are pretty well-functioning in their everyday lives who still think that policing a man is worth their time.

I wouldn't tolerate being policed and I couldn't be bothered to police anyone either.

But what some have said about wanting to avert cheating before it happens because if it does it is humiliating and painful kind of makes sense.

I can tell you why: insecurity and fear of loss. There is no other reason.

I had a BF who cheated on me for years and I turned into a mini-detective during our entire relationship. This was before mobile phones so I had a lot of work to do when he left the house! Seriously, it was a miserable time and I used to wake up to an empty bed at 3am and get in my car and go looking for him in "his usual spots". If I found his car at a friends house at 3am, I'd feel "happy" he was somewhere safe and I could go home and go to bed. If I couldn't find his car, I knew he was somewhere he shouldn't be and I did such jealous things, that I can't even admit to them (even on Mumsnet!).

{Should add his father was murdered during our time together and he became addicted to coke and started to party and never come home -- hence why I was happy he was 'safe' with friends.}

It was simply down to fear of loss (god, I was stupid!) and sexual jealousy.

Eventually, I got sick of getting up at 3 or 4 am to find him and just slept through. THen I realised that I didn't care anymore. Being a detective is hard work. Then I left.

I swore that since then, I would never, ever do that again. But I totally understand the wallet-examining aspect of it all.

The answer is: fear of loss.
It's hell. YOu cannot change the outcome. Ever.

I couldn't be kept on a short leash and I'd have no respect for anyone who allowed themselves to be restrained in this manner.

Nor me. But would you respect someone who tried to keep someone (or you) on a short leash either?

Because I don't think I could. Insecurity is so unattractive.

I don't have a scooby. I've always told men I'm in a relationship with: I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. I have more self respect than that. Happy people do not cheat. End of. I'm not married but have stuck to my word even with a booked wedding and a 7yr old relationship. I left. It takes guts but IMO once the trust is broken, it's broken. Hats off to any person that manages to stick around and fight though. I just see it as winning the booby prize...

I don't know and it's something I've often wondered.
Of course men sometimes do it too, in which case they are labeled controlling

*The answer is: fear of loss.
It's hell. YOu cannot change the outcome. Ever.*

Thanks for your brave and honest post, Nomads. What an awful time you had, I'm glad you're not in that place any more.

But I'm not sure I agree with the bit of your post I quoted.

I have a close friend who fell in love with a man and I'm pretty sure it was a massive big deal - a proper coup de foudre - on both sides. Nobody did anything 'wrong' though; they were both married and she had children.

His wife's radar was on high alert and she really shut it down good and proper. Set up routines so they had no contact with each other, and they still don't. She had IVF and started a family with him. It was a few years ago but I think he and my friend still pine for each other. They have no contact but he walks past her house all the time looking miserable, torturing her.

But each is in their 'proper' place, with their spouses. So the wife 'won' and still has her prize. She did change the outcome.

Dunno if I'd want to be with someone on those terms myself. He's got a good job though, maybe money comes into it too... not to mention the 'respectability' of marriage.

I called time on my marriage recently and I'm not sorry I did - I'm a lot happier. But I do feel a bit vulnerable without my wedding ring... I feel like I look a bit unloved without it. Maybe for some people it's just really important for their self esteem that they have a partner, at any price (?)

fackinell what is a scooby?

The interesting thing some men in this context tiredofwaiting , is they seem to go along with their wives reining them in - your friend's situation sounds like a good example.

Feckthehalls

^I don't know and it's something I've often wondered.
Of course men sometimes do it too, in which case they are labeled controlling confused^

All I wanted to say is yes they should be, because it is controlling and damaging. Women that do this should be called out and labelled correctly too controlling having a vagina doesn't exempt you from being abusive or a fuckwit.

I think that was feck's point, Snowman. You're agreeing with her, right?

Many of these examples of controlling women who allegedly keep men on a leash are coming from.....untrustworthy men who posters know and untrustworthy women who are having affairs with said men. It's therefore not surprising that people in those two camps have a vested interest in painting women as obsessive harridans and gaolers, is it?

Maybe if society stopped telling women that if they kept their men happy they wouldn't stray, this 'policing' as you describe it would stop and women would realise that it's not their fault if they are in a relationship with a cheat and that nothing they do can stop a man if that's what he wants to do. Often people do these crazy things because they think people will blame them if what they fear happening comes true, so they do everything they can to prevent it. But they can't and so if it does happen, it's not their fault.

'scooby' is rhyming slang for 'clue' <helpful>

<not contributing anything much to the conversation>

'I don't have a scooby' means, 'I don't have a clue'....(as in Scooby Doo)

I have never seen the point in policing a man. It wouldn't be worth my effort or time. If you don't want to be with me, then don't, is my basic attitude to life. No one's forcing you. If I discovered a partner was having an affair I would end the relationship. I don't play games, and I don't want to be with anyone who does.

Maybe if society stopped telling women that if they kept their men happy they wouldn't stray, this 'policing' as you describe it would stop

Agreed. But it's also interesting how on threads on MN if someone HAS had an affair there seems to be an awful lot of hostility directed at the OW... the man is seen as the unwitting victim, and the OW the Lady Macbeth figure who fucks everything up. I can't help wondering if the 'policers' are often of the mentality that there are predatory WOMEN out there who have to be kept at bay...

I think my attitude would be - if you want him, you can have him.

I think that it is largely down to the very great fear that a number of women have of being alone and the perceived failure of divorce or being single.

I think also that being divorced- especially if you've given up a lot (career, life choices, etc) - and having to start again is very scary.

I know of a number of expat women who police their husbands. Divorce means losing their visa, returning to their home country (which In my case i haven't lived in full time for close on 17 years), attempting to get money out of someone who has a declared income in the UK of zero, finding a job when youve been out of the workforce for decades and a home... I imagine in this situation it feels better or safer to police their partner so that they aren't in a situation where they have to make a stand on adultery.

I bet for women in the UK who police their husbands that the answer to why they do it is tied up in the same reasons as above too.

I don't see that on those threads. I see posters blaming both the person who had the affair and the other person, which is about right isn't it? I wouldn't expect posters to claim the other woman had no part in events, as that wouldn't be rational or true.

I think if you've always had competitive relationships with women, you'll probably blame them more than men, whatever they do. So you'll judge them more harshly if they are involved in an affair (either as OW or as a married person)......blame them if they are suspicious and jealous even when they've got cause to be.....blame them if their partner has an affair.......blame them if their sons do no housework or childcare....the list goes on.

Meanwhile the untrustworthy men and idle fathers escape all the brickbats.

Thanks for your post Comrade.

Yes, I guess you are right... the circumstances you describe are quite extreme but it is an illustration of women's lack of clout in so many areas of life. We should have achieved equality now but we haven't. The SAHM thread on here right now is a case in point. A woman who gave up her career for a man and is now financially and emotionally shafted since the relationship ended.

It's something I hadn't considered... that women will police relationships out of fear of sheer financial insecurity and lack of confidence in the legal process to see them right.

I honestly hadn't thought of that.

But again, this really applies to married women/women with kids/commitments.

Why do so many women who don't have these constraints still police their men?

Where are you getting all this from OP? Do you know loads of single women with no commitments who monitor their completely trustworthy partners?

I have to say I'm a bit uncomfortable with a thread that seems to want to paint a picture of women as controlling obsessives, without looking at the behaviour of the men in their lives......the story about your friend for example, makes it sound as though her and the man were completely blameless for getting involved in a relationship that could have damaged their marriages. I'd say you're likely to be getting a very jaundiced account of his wife's behaviour too, because it suits your friend to think that his wife put a stop to any affair - rather than the truth which is that this man had free will. If he wanted an affair, nothing his wife did could have stopped him. Your friend should really stop this sort of denial that blames women for men's behaviour......

badinage I am purely basing this on what I have seen on these threads. Have a read yourself.

a thread that seems to want to paint a picture of women as controlling obsessives, without looking at the behaviour of the men in their lives...

This is a very distorted view of what this thread was about and if you had read all the posts, including mine, I don't think you'd have said this actually this is total bollocks but let's be polite. Of course men aren't absolved of responsibility, not at all. But if men behave badly and serially cheat, why do some women tolerate this and see the solution as policing rather than just get rid? That was the question. And there have been a lot of really interesting replies and perspectives that shine a light on this.

I'm not going to say more about my friend and the OM in her life. It was a complicated situation but to give more detail would compromise people and I'm not prepared to do that. You've made a lot of assumptions but that's understandable because you don't know the parties involved. I do, and I'm confident my take on the situation is pretty measured and thought-through, not to mention corroborated by others, not just my friend with the 'jaundiced view'. But let's not pursue that as it's a red herring really.

Dunno what your issues are but assume there must be some as you seem to want to pick a fight. I'd love to humour you but I am off to bed now, sleep well

I think there's probably zillions of little reasons for why this happens...

Immaturity is probably the first one that springs to mind. As in - being very young; the actual meaning of immaturity. Young people without very much life experience can be less trustful of their partners. I know I was in my early 20s.

But aside from this, there are all sorts of reasons. It doesn't take much imagination to figure them out.

Upbringing, your parents' blueprint for relationships, life experience, low self-esteem, an unfortunate early experience with an emotional abuser which fucks you up. Cheating yourself, and knowing what people are capable of and how 'easy' it is to getaway with stuff. Being a naturally suspicious and/or pessimistic person.

Really, when you think about, there's loads of reasons. In fact, my experience on forums has taught me that happy, well adjusted people with healthy self-esteems are very much in the minority.

Me, I'm way too lazy. That, and the fact that I have a lovely Dad and a lovely DH and so have no cause for concern.

I think a lot of it stems from insecurity.

In the interests of fairness this policing isn't limited to women I know men who do it too - the worst example was an old schoolfriend's dad, who recorded all conversations on their landline (pre mobile era) and drove his wife to and from work every day to ensure she had no opportunity to speak to other men.

The friend I mentioned upthread is v insecure and has low self esteem. I believe her father has a history of affairs, and she grew up with her mum constantly checking his whereabouts, hence perceiving it to be an almost normal way to behave.

You don't know how you would feel in that situation.
For me, I wasn't ready to end my marriage, so I tried to police it for a while. Eventually I stopped bothering and we ended it but that was my timeframe and a process I had to go through. Sometimes you have to live something to find out how pointless and destructive it is. If we could all act on other people's advice nobody would ever make mistakes.

And yes there is vitriol directed at the OW. I never ever absolved my H of responsibility and my hatred o the OW does not preclude my anger at him. I hate her for various things related more to her behaviour after the affair ended and that's my right. I look forward to one day feeling nothing towards her but I'm not quite there!

The only time I did it was when I believed that I wouldn't be able to find anything better if I / he left. I thought I didn't deserve to be treated any differently.

Men do this too though you know, in relationships. It isn't a 'woman' thing.

I think it depends if the policing is short term in response to a specific situation, or a long term pattern.

4 years ago I had suspicions about DH and a colleague. He said they were just friends and she maybe had a bit of a crush on him but nothing had happened and nothing would happen. I checked his emails whenever I had the chance to see if there was any evidence to refute this. I found nothing, and have had no reason to mistrust my DH since then, so I'm glad I did it to set my mind at rest.

I guess your OP assumes the H is definitely cheating.

Tiredofwaiting - do you honestly believe the OM in your friend's case is still with his wife purely because she is policing him? I'm astounded. He's there because he wants to be, for whatever reason. I am sure your friend believes he is bereft without her, and his life has been ruined by the controlling wife, but I'd put money on the reality being a little different. Men who cheat/want to cheat tell a whole lot of lies to their OW, mostly about their wife.

Policing anyone in a relationship is a bit insane, as it breeds resentment. If a partner has breeched trust, they have to put in the work to prove they are trustworthy themselves, because they want to, not because they have to.

I have to say I'm a bit uncomfortable with a thread that seems to want to paint a picture of women as controlling obsessives, without looking at the behaviour of the men in their lives

Me, too. I've been open about having behaved in a controlling way through fear. What about the husband who played on my fear to manipulate my thoughts and feelings? He told me I was imagining objects and events I'd seen for myself. I was quicker to believe I was wrong/damaged//drunk/insane than the evidence of my own eyes & common sense - it didn't occur to me that anybody would lie as blatantly as he did! He found it amusing.

To me - and to everyone around us - it seemed more likely that I was crazy than that he was a manipulative cunt. The abuse victim is often blamed by others, who fail to understand that they're looking at the effects of systematic and deliberate undermining. I now find it shocking that women are so readily written off as unstable or controlling: this enables abusers and isolates victims.

A cheating partner is abusive. S/he may or may not be an habitual abuser but, during the build-up and execution of an affair, they abuse their partner's trust and love. It's not surprising that the victim loses confidence, becomes fearful, and attempts to re-establish their security.

I described the underlying values that brought me together with 'compatible' partners. To simplify a lot (!) we saw men as cheeky villains, who use women while the women are trying to trap them. We never sat down and discussed this but, no matter how clear your logic, your unconscious values show through. Please bear in mind that this is the same precept underlying 99% of romantic films, music and even history ... women compete for men; men run rings round them. Just because I've analysed my mind in therapy, don't assume my problem was unusual.

Tiredofwaiting - do you honestly believe the OM in your friend's case is still with his wife purely because she is policing him?

No I don't, not at all. I think I didn't explain it all very well. I wrote about that in response to someone who said you can never influence the outcome. I disagree with this. Any threads on here about affairs - and that Shirley Glass book I think, though I've not read it - point to affairs happening often because an attraction gets pursued and indulged and eventually turns into an affair. I think in the situation my friend was in, something might have happened if his wife hadn't been so vigilant. And it might have been something big. But ultimately he wasn't prepared to do anything about it anyway, because he was happy to be brought back into line.

So I suppose you can stop someone from having an affair if you police them. If you think something is developing you can shut it down before it goes too far.

But I think it must be a horrible way to live.

garlic I don't think this this thread assumes women are controlling obsessives. I just find it really sad that I've often seen on MN women who seem to be high-functioning in other areas of their lives who are insecure in their relationships and put a lot of energy into policing men who don't behave respectfully towards them. And I was curious to understand the mentality. I've never been in this position myself; I'm not a jealous person but I'm not particularly trusting either. I'm quite cynical about people But I more accept that they might do wrong things than think it is worth trying to stop them.

garlic I think you made an interesting point that there are men who enjoy making their partners insecure and gaslight, which does make you feel like you are going mad and determined to find out what the truth is.

The guy I mentioned upthread whose wife wouldn't let him have female friends was very accepting of her being like this. I think he saw it as evidence that she really loved him, ditto her freaking out at him if he'd had a sneaky cigarette on a night out.

So I guess sometimes it might be the man who encourages the policing because he gets some kind of buzz out of it, or because it helps him with his own insecurity.

I don't think this is exclusively female thing either and I am sure there are men who keep tabs on women as well. I only made the thread title as it is because there are many, many more women on here than men, and arguably men are more likely to cheat, or they certainly seem to be. But it's very controlling either way, isn't it?

great thread, and yes, whoputhedickonthesnowman that was exactly my point

women who seem to be high-functioning in other areas of their lives who are insecure in their relationships and put a lot of energy into policing men who don't behave respectfully towards them

Yep, that describes me to a T! I think the reasons such women commit to men who treat them disrespectfully, then expend loads of energy trying to get some respect, are all tied up with skewed ideas of self-worth and of women's value compared to men's. Since pulling this apart in therapy, I've become quite intolerant of many social norms from lapdancing to Michael Douglas films (and plenty in between.) I agree with you that couples are probably drawn together by shared beliefs about responsibility. The couple in your story seem to accept that she's responsible for moderating his behaviour - and it worked for them this time. While they might both deny it if you put it to them, this is what their behaviour shows about them.

When you think of how many women infantilise their partners in general terms (laundry, diet, bills, etc.), it's not much of a stretch to suppose they also consider men incapable of emotional self-monitoring. Actually it would be seen as a red flag if a man were to act as if he didn't trust his wife to sort out her own laundry, to know what to eat and to manage her friendships. It could be interesting to wonder why we're so tolerant of the reverse.

Michael Douglas films

He's done a lot of films... any in particular? Personally I'm not keen on Disclosure and Fatal Attraction which I think contain really terrible messages about male/female relationships/dynamics.

And I think you are right about skewed values re women vs men. I detest the women's magazine thing of giving women tips re how to attract/please/keep men. The idea that men's mags would do that in reverse is unthinkable. I guess the idea that a woman is 'lucky' to have a man is still powerful and explains why women might indulge in policing behaviour - the man is a prize to hang onto even if he's a cheating cunt

But I suppose as long as men have more financial clout than women this will persist... the 'don't be a SAHM' thread on here is pretty salutory.

Michael Douglas films ... any in particular?

Perhaps he has done a film in which some woman of inappropriate age doesn't make an absolute tit of herself for love of him? I must have missed it - or maybe a film that passes the Bechdel test? Missed that one, too.

Haha garlic that's fair enough. But since he got CZJ in RL and she's still with him he probably has no concept of how unrealistic these plotlines are...