Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

Men who don't watch porn

(1000 Posts)
FBworry Mon 10-Dec-12 19:40:59

I do not believe all men watch porn.

However I wonder why they dont with it now being the "norm"?

Was there never any interest in the first place? Has it lost its shine? Is it a for feminist reasons?

Or is it more of a case of resisting temptation? As in they do want to watch but guilt and/or morals stop them? Fear of being caught?

We live in a time when we are constantly fed the message all men watch porn so nobody ever discusses those that don't watch it.

ouryve Mon 10-Dec-12 19:43:47

Mine simply isn't interested and has never been the sort of person to do something simply because other people do it.

Men aren't a single entity with a hive mind, are they?

lalalonglegs Mon 10-Dec-12 19:44:45

I can't speak for all men that don't watch porn but my husband claims to find it very fake and mechanical. I suppose a lot of men don't watch it for the same reasons that a lot of women don't - they don't find it very sexy.

CaptainNancy Mon 10-Dec-12 19:47:16

you sound like a journo hmm but FWIW DH doesn't because he feels porrn is exploitative, degrades women, leads to warped ideas of what sexual behaviour should be etc.
He feels how can anyone get turned on by watching women being abused?

Seems like a reasonable stance to me.

FBworry Mon 10-Dec-12 19:47:59

Of course men aren't a single entity and they will all have their own reasons for the whys, I just thought it was interesting discussion as it against the grain.

SantaJaxx Mon 10-Dec-12 19:49:13

DH doesn't watch porn because I don't like him too. He did years ago, it caused a lot of rows and pain and now I think he thinks it's just more trouble than it's worth. He does now know about the horrors behind porn as I've told him/showed him evidence but I'm not sure he believes that all porn is forced on the woman.

MamaMary Mon 10-Dec-12 19:52:13

DH doesn't watch porn because he feels it is exploiting the women; and because, as a Christian, it is clearly seen as destructive in the Bible.

Jesus' words: "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5: 27-8.

Also Job 31: 1. "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl."

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Mon 10-Dec-12 19:55:08

Captainnancy, dh is the same. He doesn't find the exploitation of women sexy.

Meringue33 Mon 10-Dec-12 19:55:56

Doesn't like it and would rather play Call of Duty with his mates

FBworry Mon 10-Dec-12 20:03:25

A journo! I wish I was being paid for this smile

I just tried write neutrally

Mamamary thats an interesting reason . Many people seem to think viewing porn isnt cheating so refreshing to see a different take on it.

NulliusInBlurba Mon 10-Dec-12 20:04:08

DH just doesn't get turned on by watching someone he has no connection with on a screen. I can imagine people saying 'oh yeah, that's just what he tells you', but I've made it clear that if he really wanted to watch it I wouldn't mind too much (although I don't actively like it and do think it's exploitative), yet he still has no interest. He's not into porn mags either. He's also totally not into wanking, which I do find rather weird. I do wonder whether his Catholic upbringing is having more of an effect on his life than he thinks is the case.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Mon 10-Dec-12 20:05:31

I've known quite a lot of men who simply aren't very interested in it. In some cases it's because they are not very interested in sex, in some cases it's superstitious reasons, in some cases it's because they prefer their own imaginations.

I have encountered one or two men who are opposed to porn who were creepy, control-freaky misogynists, too.

CailinDana Mon 10-Dec-12 20:05:49

DH doesn't watch porn because it does nothing for him. I went through a phase of liking it (grew out of that) and tried to get him to watch it with me but he wouldn't - finds it distasteful and a bit weird, not a turn on at all.

HoHoHokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Mon 10-Dec-12 20:07:05

Same as CallinDana said, it does nothing for him, not a turn on at all.

BelaLugosisShed Mon 10-Dec-12 20:07:45

With my DH, simply a case of never any real interest, even when he used to be away for work, porn didn't feature in his life at all.
He isn't particularly anti-porn , well, he does think that porn should be far more heavily controlled on the internet, with opt-in and proof of age being the default but that's as far as his thinking on the subject goes - it doesn't have any place in our life at all.
He just doesn't see the point of porn to be honest.

ObscuredByClouds Mon 10-Dec-12 20:07:55

My dh simply doesn't like watching women who potentially are being abused.

monsterchild Mon 10-Dec-12 20:08:52

My Dh also doesn't watch porn, and I am not really sure if it's "the norm," or if the sellers of it want us to think so.

DH says basically the same thing other's DH says, which is, it doesn't interest him or turn him on. Same reasons I don't look at it, really.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Mon 10-Dec-12 20:09:03

Dh met me no longer after I came out of a very abusive relationship. He says porn reminds him of how I was abused. It makes him feel a bit sick.

He did watch before he met me, but doesn't anymore. He feel is exploitative and abusive.

He also believes very strongly in the link between people watching violent porn and people being violent.

yellowowl Mon 10-Dec-12 20:09:06

My DH doesn't watch it because he feels it exploits and degrades women and treats them as objects.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Mon 10-Dec-12 20:10:45

It's a reasonable question, FB

It pisses me off that on all the porn usage threads, there is always a couple of people who come on to say that women whose menfolk say they don't use porn are stupid, deluded and that they just don't get told about it

I know my H has seen porn (most men have, along with most women at some point) but he doesn't "use" it, doesn't need it and feels that real men should have grown out of it by the time they are out of their teens.

It's a lazy and exploitative way to get your rocks off...he prefers a warm and truly equally receptive/responsive partner to enjoy sex with. Watching others have sex has to be one of the coldest pastimes in the world.

seeker Mon 10-Dec-12 20:11:17

Mine doesn't watch pron because he is an adult human being with a brain and a heart.

seeker Mon 10-Dec-12 20:11:51

And he doesn't watch porn for the same reasons..........

Jinsei Mon 10-Dec-12 20:13:02

DH doesn't watch it. I have never asked why and don't know if it does anything for him, but I do know he thinks it is cheap and distasteful, and degrading to all concerned.

Dededum Mon 10-Dec-12 20:17:25

Mine doesn't and he does a lot of travelling. Sure he has watched the odd movie on his travels. But he has quite a 'high minded' view of the world and doesn't like to be around people or things that he finds grubby. Little bit sanctimonious, but I suppose it's his protective shield.

ThePinkOcelot Mon 10-Dec-12 20:18:11

My DH just says it does nothing for him! Not all men, or women for that matter, are interested in it.

MarzipanAnimal Mon 10-Dec-12 20:24:15

DH doesn't. I think he had the odd look when he was a teenager out of curiosity. He considers it sleazy, fake, distasteful and exploitative, and would also consider it to be cheating when in a relationship.
AnyF it totally annoys me too when people say 'of course all men use porn, they just hide it'. Completely wrong, and sad that they have such a low view of humanity!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Mon 10-Dec-12 20:26:01

Yes, MA, and they call feminists "man haters !" wink

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea Mon 10-Dec-12 20:30:57

What Pink and Marzipan said.

Men can have hang ups about sex just like women, they can be prudish, easily shocked, disgusted etc by porn.

My DH has no interest in sex outside a relationship, not from a moral perspective, just an emotional one. Was like that for years before I met him and is unlikely to change.

Meringue33 Mon 10-Dec-12 20:35:26

Is porn ALWAYS abuse btw? Even amateur events like Seattle's Humpfest?
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Hump2012/Page

MrsWolowitz Mon 10-Dec-12 20:35:50

DH doesn't watch porn.

I didn't know why so I just asked. He said it just doesn't turn him on and he feels sorry for the people in the porn movies as he finds it exploitative.

I bloody love that man <proud>

FBworry Mon 10-Dec-12 20:53:33

"It pisses me off that on all the porn usage threads, there is always a couple of people who come on to say that women whose menfolk say they don't use porn are stupid, deluded and that they just don't get told about it"

Very true. I have found this extends to RL too. I admit in moments of weakness it has made me question DH reason for not using porn. As in , is he just resisting temptation rather than for genuine reasons.

Its hard when your constantly fed message all men watch porn, your stupid to think otherwise etc- so cheering to see so many examples of men who dont.

DorsetKnobwithJingleBellsOn Mon 10-Dec-12 20:55:31

DH is just not interested in it, never had been.

Chandon Mon 10-Dec-12 21:03:59

Maybe you should ask this at Dad's net?

What do we know?!

I know men who find porn, strippers and hookers somehow degrading for the women involved as well as for the men watching. That it is seedy and nasty.

superwhizzynewlaptop Mon 10-Dec-12 21:05:08

My DH doesn't use porn and I've just asked him why. He says he is genuinely not interested in it, would find it cringe-worthy to watch other people having sex, and would feel he was almost being unfaithful by watching it.

DH not interested in it, ex DH not interested in it, many ex boyfriends not interested in it, despite being massive wankers ;)They watched in their late teens/early twenties but then grew up.
However, I said this before on another thread and was told they were all liars.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Mon 10-Dec-12 21:13:19

Yes, Thisis, I have had it implied I am dense and having the wool pulled over my eyes. Nice, eh ?

FBworry Mon 10-Dec-12 21:16:51

Was once told here the only reason DH didnt watch porn was because we had only been married a short while, were too young and that my DH wasnt as red blooded as hers!

ChangingWoman Mon 10-Dec-12 22:05:43

None of the men I've had LTRs with have been regular porn users. Nor are my close male friends.

ExH thought the porn he'd come across was artificial and tacky. He was also put off (as I am) by the fact that the women didn't apppear to be genuinely into the sex they were performing. It was all obviously faked.

One exBF preferred computer programming to porn (or to sex which was a bigger problem, frankly).

Another ex said he just preferred sex with real live, fully-participating women to wanking.

Men are as different as women.

bubbles1231 Mon 10-Dec-12 22:08:15

Because porn is not making love. Why not have the real thing at home?

lilibet Mon 10-Dec-12 22:13:14

I showed dh the OP, his first comment was 'who says it's the norm?'.

He just never has and I'm pretty sure never will, it's not something that interests him, same as, for example, Eastenders/Emmerdale/Corrie !!

Heleninahandcart Mon 10-Dec-12 23:30:00

I'm not sure 'most' men use porn. I have know men who do, and those who don't. I have also known men who really didn't like it, and didn't want to admit it to other men. I also, shock horror, know men who have not partaken in what's on offer in lap dancing clubs, despite most of the others doing so.

I'm also pretty sure masturbation existed before today's versions of porn. Porn in some form has presumably existed since man could scratch into stone. Pompeii has erotic pictures on the walls. But right up until the internet was easily available, video porn wasn't available on demand. Men still managed to masturbate without it.

Morloth Mon 10-Dec-12 23:44:46

Yeah, have had the same said to me on threads about porn.

DH has never shown any interest, like seeker's DH he is an adult with a brain and a heart.

I have asked him straight up how he felt about porn and he told me that he just wasn't interested and found the whole thing quite sordid and worrying.

He has left parties/stag nights because of strippers etc and has quietly dropped those friends who are into it.

He isn't vehemently anti-porn, just wants no part of it personally, same as me TBH.

He is plenty red blooded - I speak from experience here. wink

Morloth Mon 10-Dec-12 23:47:02

I think I will take the word of the man who has never given me reason to doubt him in the 20 years or so I have known him, over the word of some random on the internet desperate to think that their way of life is normal, even if it is upsetting for them.

badinage Tue 11-Dec-12 00:30:16

I guess the reason why this myth is so popular on internet forums (especially of the 'I've got a problem and need your advice' kind) is that it's a place where women in troubled relationships congregate, so it gives a skewed picture of what normal, kind, honest men are like. Often those posters have been told by men (and other women married to similar men) that 'every man looks at porn'. So they post about it, get responses from posters just like their friends who suck it up and think every woman should - and so the myth gathers currency.

It's not a true reflection of men's behaviour any more than the posts about men who don't.....do housework, cook, share childcare or respect their partners. It's merely a reflection of the sort of men who make women unhappy and miserable - not most men. My husband (like me) saw porn when he was younger, but says he grew up and out of it very quickly. He says he's discussed it with male friends and they are of the same opinion. Plus they all think it's indefensible from a political and parenting standpoint.

Morloth Tue 11-Dec-12 00:49:34

That is probably right badinage, you have a bit of a self selecting group going on.

Someone posts about their DH's watching porn, so most of the respondents also have DH's who watch porn, that sets the 'normal'.

The same is true of many other relationship posts. If you don't have any problems then obviously you don't post about them.

The most irritating thing my DH does is leave plates on top of the dishwasher instead of in it, so I don't really spend much time complaining about him.

When you do mention that this is your 'normal' on some of the threads you are accused of being smug, as if the only valid post is a miserable one - so after a while you stop posting about your healthy relationship, reinforcing the idea that all relationships have the same issues.

Chandon Tue 11-Dec-12 07:25:59

I think the smugness factor comes into it.

Often do not want to appear smug, so keep quiet instead. There must be more people like that! Which then means we do not get a representive view.

Spending too much time on the relationship board might make anyone believe all men are bastards...

BadLad Tue 11-Dec-12 08:43:07

It's pixels on a screen or photos on a page, neither of which particularly turn me on. I can turn myself on much better just by closing my eyes and thinking about....

So I don't watch it, although DW has no problem with it, and in fact quite likes watching it herself.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 09:06:11

I think the saddest posts are the "fellow traveller" ones. You know, "Yes, he does watch porn and I watch it with him- I love it- you do't know whwt you're missing!"

rach6122 Tue 11-Dec-12 10:13:47

SEEKER!!! oh my gosh, sorry i have to ask.... me and my husband occasionally watch porn together for both our enjoyment... so he (the most amazing, kind, intelligent man i have ever met) has no brain or heart and i am sad??? judgemental much?! that's a very broad speculation. each to their own, i don't judge anyone who doesn't watch porn but you clearly judge those who do.. interesting.

oohlaalaa Tue 11-Dec-12 10:27:36

My DH doesn't. I've even checked the history on his computer, a few times. It just doesn't interest him. He's watched it when he was younger (early 20s), to see what the fuss is about, but not anymore. I think work and family take up too much time.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 10:27:52

Yes, I do judge people who watch porn. Because I know how porn is made. And I know the damage that the objectification of women does.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 10:29:30

I hgave to ask, what do you enjoy/find sexy about it?

rach6122 Tue 11-Dec-12 10:34:49

i'd prefer not to go into detail as i've seen how some of these conversations go with people on mumsnet (ruthless, attacking and clearly looking for arguments), and im nealry 39 weeks pregnant so not for now, but classifying people all under one category is extreme, i'm just shocked. i totally get why people don't want to watch it and respect that but surely everyone has a right to a choice and shouldn't be deemed to be brainless and heartless if they have a different opinion. anyway as i said i know how this might go now so i shall peacefully opt out smile

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 10:38:35

I'm afraid you are brainless and heartless if you don't think about how porn is made, and what effect it has on the people who make it and on society at large. Which I'm surprised you don't, if, as you say, you've Ben involved onnother threads on the subject.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 10:43:06

I do agree with seeker about the moral implications of pornography. The only time I have ever watched it was as part of an abusive scenario, and I'm afraid I can't separate abuse and degradation from the porn industry. Porn is written for men.

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 10:43:13

My dp is another who is not interested and never has been. I think he finds it all a bit creepy. He is not particularly "political", his gut feeling just seems to be that it is somehow wrong and unpleasant, and he's another one who prefers the real thing. Poor devil, as sex is banned in our house wink

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 10:50:26

I judge people who use porn too. I judge them as unimaginitive, sexually stunted and ignorant of the abusive and misogynistic nature of the industry.

Those are not irredeemable negative characteristics, however. We could all decide that we don't need porn in our lives and think a little more carefully about whether watching plastic-titted young women pretend to be in ecstacy at getting get jizzed on by 6 different men is a healthy way to enhance your own sexual pleasure.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea Tue 11-Dec-12 11:06:25

"I judge them as unimaginitive, sexually stunted..." etc.

What about a little bit of compassion for those who were exposed to it at a young age - before they could make adult, moral decisions and have been affected by it ever since?

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 11:07:14

The porn apologists have said before that porn is only one way they might get their kicks, so it's alright really, its use is under control by those who view it, and what's wrong with that in the comfort of your own home?

I used to take that view, or something similar, whilst not using it myself, I would shrug my shoulders at those that did. When I got older, more life experience under my belt, I could not, and still cannot, separate the titillation from the exploitation, if you like. I really do not see how anyone can ignore that part of it. Really.

I know there are people who will argue that not all porn is exploitative, and that I am missing out somehow on some liberating experiences, but even if I took that argument on board for a moment, I couldn't get over the exploitation of women point, on a general, massive(as I see it) scale. I don't know how people who use porn, and consider themselves enlightened, do that.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 11:09:59

"What about a little bit of compassion for those who were exposed to it at a young age - before they could make adult, moral decisions and have been affected by it ever since?"

I don't understand.....?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 11:12:49

Unexpected , this isn't a thread about being exposed to sexual abuse in childhood. If it was, everybody's responses would be very different. If FB wasn't talking about an adult's free choice to use porn, she would have said so in the OP.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea Tue 11-Dec-12 11:16:10

Sorry Seeker - to explain:

Unfortunately, some children are exposed to pornography at a very young age. Either through careless people leaving material lying around, or no parental controls on TV / internet.

My understanding is that this can have a lasting effect on their use of pornography, so that by the time they are old understand the moral implications of porn, and the realities of the porn industry, they are in effect addicted to it.

I just thought that there should be some compassion shown for these adults who were affected in this way as children.

Theala Tue 11-Dec-12 11:19:11

I judge people who use porn too. I judge them as unimaginitive, sexually stunted and ignorant of the abusive and misogynistic nature of the industry.

This.

DP isn't interested in porn so doesn't watch it. My ex watched porn and I'm convinced it was part of the reason he had such a fucked-up view of relationships.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 11:19:45

Obviously the should be compassion shown to children exposed to inappropriate material.

But I have to say I am a bit hmm about this addiction thing.

abitcoldupnorth Tue 11-Dec-12 11:21:23

Another DP who would never look at porn, for the same sort of reasons - it's degrading, cold, nowhere close to sex with someone you love.

And yes, I feel the same way about the porn industry as I do about drugs. It's not OK to 'just do a little bit at the weekend'. It's a hugely damaging industry, on all sorts of levels.

Yarg Tue 11-Dec-12 11:25:36

My DP doesn't watch porn because he's not a sad bastard. I've never been with a man who did watch porn. I don't date sad bastards.

choceyes Tue 11-Dec-12 11:29:11

My DH has never watched porn. Not sure if it's because he has any views on it being degrading or expoitative towards women, he just doesn't find it a turn on. It's not something we've discussed at length TBH.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 11-Dec-12 11:39:59

Unexpected - I do get what you mean. My DH was exposed to porn as a child due to his careless DF leaving it around and this is partly why in mid life, he became a heavy user of internet porn.

However, he wasn't addicted and was able to stop using it completely after doing some reading and research into the realities of the porn industry and how porn use damages one's sexuality and relationships. He does not miss it at all.

I don't think DP sees it as 'the norm' at all.

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 11:52:07

I don't necessarily agree about exposure to porn at a young age, simply as a result of my own experiences. My dad was an inveterate user of playboy mags at one time, what I would call old style porn (ie non internet I suppose-Duh!!). He kept it hidden away, but not that well hidden, as I regularly looked at it. Quite regularly in fact blush. I would have been about 11-14 maybe? He never knew I looked at it. That quite possibly contributed to my shrugging my shoulders at porn use as I have referred to above, but in my twenties I quickly saw it for what it was.

I am interested in the argument though. Very difficult to get reliable research on it I would have thought.

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 11:53:43

I suppose that did in fact make me a "user of porn" at that time. Interesting.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:16:54

As a man, i do not know of any other man, who i am close enough to know this information, that has not/does not watch porn. I think ladies that your partners are just telling you what you want to hear.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 12:17:37

Bingo grin

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 12:19:59

house!

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 12:20:12

Oh god. Well, my dp has seen porn, he doesn't live in some Disney bubble. But he doesn't use it, and I can say that quite categorically. FGS, credit us "ladies" with some bloody intelligence.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 12:20:29

grin at cross post.

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 12:20:55

I despair.

HullyEastergully Tue 11-Dec-12 12:23:19

My dh doesn't watch it, it's never occurred to me to ask him why not. Being with someone who watched porn is beyond my imagination. And they would also be a bit dead.

abitcoldupnorth Tue 11-Dec-12 12:25:23

Shoesme what do you think that might suggest about your circle of friends?

Do you always think that what you and your friends do is what the rest of the world does?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:34:03

My apologies as i don't know how to quote but in answer to abitcoldupnorth (it really is at the moment)

I do have a wide variety of male friends, different ages etc so I do not believe it's just the people or the circle of males I know.

I believe it's a wider issue with men and porn.

rubyrubyruby Tue 11-Dec-12 12:37:48

My DH isn't bothered either.

He prefers to watch repeated showings of the Sopranos whilst I massage his feet.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:39:32

Honestly, I'm giving away man secrets here, when you ladies with the men who don't watch porn, pop to the shops, he's having the biggest danger wank ever.

badinage Tue 11-Dec-12 12:40:39

As if women can't tell if a man watches porn....grin

Rather than talk to your friends, talk to their partners - and your own if you have one.

Women know the difference. If you talk to any of them who've had sex with a porn loser, they'll tell you that they are shit in bed, have no imagination and are strangely attached to a belief that women are propelled into ecstasy by a penis and its ejaculations.

If your own partner and your friends' partners tell you different, they are just telling you what you want to hear......wink

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 12:41:08

"man secrets"

"you ladies"

do fuck off

HullyEastergully Tue 11-Dec-12 12:43:41

I want to share an "intelligent lady secret"

You've been fed a big fat lie to make you shut the fuck up and put up with a whole heap of shit.

Tis sad.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 12:43:42

"Add message | Report | Message poster Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:39:32
Honestly, I'm giving away man secrets here, when you ladies with the men who don't watch porn, pop to the shops, he's having the biggest danger wank ever."

How welly, welly icky.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:44:16

No need to be rude blush

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 12:46:11

No need to be a patronising pillock, dude

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:48:13

Well my apologies for coming across as patronising. I'm just trying to help x

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 12:51:25

In what way are you "trying to help"?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 12:53:09

laughable

SonOfAradia Tue 11-Dec-12 12:53:25

As a man, I know quite a lot of other men who don't watch porn, for a variety of reasons, including the exploitation angle, not finding it a turn-on and the fact it can totally fuck up your own sexual response.

mouldyironingboard Tue 11-Dec-12 12:53:57

Years ago, my DH once dated a woman who thought there was something weird about him because he'd never watched porn or wanted to watch it.

He challenged the date to show him a film and couldn't stop laughing at how bad it was. After asking for the third time 'why is that sexy?' and commented 'that woman must have terrible piles after doing that! It's putting me off my popcorn' 'can't we watch a film with a real plot now? he was asked to leave and never go back.

Not all men like porn!

SonOfAradia Tue 11-Dec-12 12:54:22

"Honestly, I'm giving away man secrets here, when you ladies with the men who don't watch porn, pop to the shops, he's having the biggest danger wank ever."

No, that's just you.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:54:45

Just to offer my perspective as your everyday male in his late 20's. We men lie about things like porn, being at the pub etc.

I'm here to help by betraying my brethren.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 12:54:58

Wanking as a danger sport. How juvenile.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 12:55:25

Well, if it isn't one of our little friends from arrse (or other similar website full of saddos)
"Danger wank" is such a mature term. hmm
Another man who can't differentiate between porn use and masturbation.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:55:43

SonOfAradia, I don't watch porn.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 12:57:08

Nah, you're here on a windup. And now you've had your danger wank, you fancy stirring up the "ladies" on Mumsnet. Or perhaps, for a bit of novelty, you are combining the two. Congratulations on the multi-tasking, we'll make a lady of you yet.

MadameOvary Tue 11-Dec-12 12:57:14

"Danger wank"?
hmm

HullyEastergully Tue 11-Dec-12 12:58:06

Oh you're a man.

Sort of.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:58:14

Obviously i meant dangerous as in he's watching porn and i don't know what arrse is, i have no agenda, other than offering my thoughts on us men. I apologise for derailing the thread somewhat. Sincerely x

NeverKnowinglySnoggedHugh Tue 11-Dec-12 12:58:31

DH, doesn't "use" porn as in films/clips
however, he does look at images of bums and tits.
We have talked about it... I was ready and prepared for him to tell me deep dark secrets but that really is it.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 12:58:58

HullyEastergully, more of a man child if i'm being honest.

HullyEastergully Tue 11-Dec-12 13:00:16

Or just child.

Inadequate child.

Not too popular with the girls at a wild wild guess.

MadameOvary Tue 11-Dec-12 13:00:31

Manchild?
You don't say.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 13:01:24

"We men lie about things like porn, being at the pub etc."

What, you mean my husband isn't really at work , he's down the pub wanking himself into a stupor to porn ? Who'd have thunk it?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:03:22

Hully, i don't do too bad to be fair with the chicks.

Anyway, I think I'm coming across all wrong. Thank you for the traditional Mumsnet welcome, you ladies have a great day xxx

rubyrubyruby Tue 11-Dec-12 13:04:54

Not all men like porn and not all men like the pub.
DH likes neither.
I like the pub.

Not all women like spas and shopping.
I hate shopping.
DH loves shopping.

MadameOvary Tue 11-Dec-12 13:04:59

I'm sure Shoes does just fine with girls.
It's the women he'll have trouble with.

ClippedPhoenix Tue 11-Dec-12 13:07:14

DP doesn't watch porn, ive never asked really as it hasn't come up the porn that is grin

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:09:38

How do you know you are an "everyday man in his 20s"? Also why do you have such a low opinion of men?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:12:09

I don't think i do have a low opinion of men.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:13:32

Why do you think they lie all the time then?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:15:04

Why are you speaking about and for "them" and making them sound utterly pathetic and nasty?

PeppermintPasty Tue 11-Dec-12 13:16:36

I think I ought to call social services. My dp is currently engaging in danger wanks when all along I thought he was looking after our children sad

I never realised.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 13:17:11

lol @ shoesme 'danger wank' smile
I would say that most (as in the vast majority) men do watch it, in some respect, but in a lot of cases have partners that wouldn't understand so they have to lie about it

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 13:18:05

Shoesme how is helpful to try and plant seeds of doubt in peoples mind by telling them their dp is a liar?

Im certain its within the realms of possibility than people do lie about their usage, but lies can go the other way around too. I think a lot of men put on a "one of the lads" bravado.

Do you think one of your mates would really pipe up with "i find porn exploitative " down da pub? I doubt he could be arsed with the flack so easier to lie.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:18:13

Because men do tell white lies all the time, doesn't make us bad or nasty.

I feel i can speak for us due to my great knowledge of us (men) (possibley childish ones)

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:18:20

Unless you are saying it is a good thing to lie to your partner about your social/sex life?

What about if your gf/wife snogged someone else or lied about where they were/what they were doing? Is this ok because "people lie" or is this special crappy behaviour just something "men do" i.e. women partners of men should be forces to tolerate in your belief?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:20:37

Andula gets it.

I'll try to answer all your questions as honestly as possible ladies, honestly i feel like Jesus right now.

ClippedPhoenix Tue 11-Dec-12 13:20:47

No "men" dont tell lies all the time, you and the people you know do. Like gravitates towards "like".

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:21:07

Why do you have such a "great knowledge" of men? Surely this again is doing them down? I don't pretend to have a "great knowledge" of women just because I am one or even people just because I am one of those.

How is lying about your sex life or lying about where you are a "white lie"? They are pretty important lies aren't they? Why don't you feel you can tell the truth? Maybe you don't feel you have to because what men do is more important?

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 13:21:31

It's the idea that some women think it's somehow cheating that makes men lie about it. Using the 'it's exploitative' line is just covering up this fact.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:22:08

No-one has to lie because there partner "wouldn't understand" you understand that don't you?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:22:18

*their

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 13:22:38

Feel like Jesus?

What?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:24:10

I'm not actually arsed about cheating, I'm arsed about lying and about porn though... How does that work then andula?

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 13:24:53

why are you 'arsed' about porn? (great choice of words by the way) smile

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:25:03

(Not that it actually matters why someone doesn't like porn btw)

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:26:15

Because it erodes the concept of consent and it is part of rape culture. It commodifies and desensitises sexual experiences.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:26:42

Why aren't you bothered by porn?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:29:25

(And it is very skewed towards male power)

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 13:29:48

So Shoesme, I should believe you rather than the man who has been my husband for longer than you have been alive?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:30:55

Bela, pretty much.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 13:31:44

It's titilation, that's all, there's nothing wrong with it. If you found out your partner was into it, what would you do?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:32:15

Have you got inadequacy issues shoes? You seem to be quite desperate to achieve dominance...

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:32:54

Offred, how is it part of the rape culture? (genuine question)

Thank you x

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:33:46

Andula - except that it isn't just titilation, undeniably it isn't just titilation so that argument is completely redundant. If my dh watched porn he wouldn't be my dh anymore.

ClippedPhoenix Tue 11-Dec-12 13:33:46

If I found out my partner was into porn I would never look at him in the same light ever again, so this for me would be deal breaker.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:34:30

Offred, i think i've got commiment issues more than inadequacy issues, i find it hard to open myself up to people these days, wasn't always like this though.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:36:40

Because most mainstream porn shows female humiliation and degradation with male power and/or the penis at the centre of the experience. In a lot of porn it is the humiliation and the degradation of the woman which is designed to be exciting but beyond that there are also the consent issues. Anyone who watches porn, and especially those who lie about it, is demonstrating poor understanding of consent.

Yarg Tue 11-Dec-12 13:37:19

I'm the only one that has 'danger wanks' in MY household. I tell DP to go and get me a cup of tea and see if I can come before he gets back.

Not really.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:37:52

I don't really think there is any such thing as a "commitment issue" other than I suppose thinking you have to be committed but being unprepared to do so and then lying about it,...

QuickLookBusy Tue 11-Dec-12 13:39:00

My DH doesn't watch porn. I wouldn't be with him if he did.

And men who "know all men wank to porn, when we are doing the shopping. And that all men lie about being in the pub"

Gosh you are clever, you know about every relationship in the country?
"Ladies" lets all bow down to the menz wisdom or piss ourselves laughing

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:39:45

That's more of an inadequacy issue though because it is coming from an initial feeling of your own way of thinking being undesirable and almost punishing others with half compliance...

ArielTheBahHumbugMermaid Tue 11-Dec-12 13:41:46

Mine doesn't because he is more interested in other stuff <shrugs>

And he thinks it's stupid and grubby.

ClippedPhoenix Tue 11-Dec-12 13:42:06

Exactly Quick. If my DP got his kicks out of watching women being degraded he certainly would not be the one for me.

I have also had a fair few boyfriends/long term relationships in my life and not one of them were into porn. Being into porn is not the "norm" from what I've experienced.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 13:43:47

Shoesme, you do know that most women regard porn using men as emotionally immature and sexually inadequate don't you?

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 13:47:48

And some women like it and don't think relationships should be a soft-focussed rom-com

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:48:53

Bela, i didn't know that but i don't believe it to be true about men or women who watch porn being emotionally immature or sexually inadequate so with the greatest of respect i think you're totally wrong x

The women i know think watching porn is normal, they even watch porn themselves.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 13:50:29

Tbh honest I do know a few women who enjoy porn.

Everyone is different.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:50:59

I don't think relationships should be a soft focused romcom but gosh aren't you desperate to prove you are down with the menz with that comment!

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:56:52

I wouldn't argue with the fact that some women watch and like porn or think it is normal for men to watch it. I just think they often haven't given it too much thought because they have been raised in rape culture and capitalism or they have consent issues themselves.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:57:44

(Just the same as men, funny that, why is there a difference again is it because men are just animals?)

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 13:59:10

Thank you for answering my question Offred and anyone else.

I'm genuinely not trying to come a cross as a dick, just trying to be honest with my opinions.

Shoesme, you come across as a dick, because you are telling us that all men look at porn, and that any man who says he doesn't is a liar. You are telling us that our husbands lie to us. You told one of us that you know her husband better than she does.
Why did you think that would be well-received?
You've got a crap sexist view of the world, and I hope you are merely young, maybe under 25. I've heard your views are prevalent among the kids, but don't try and extrapolate your views onto the rest of us.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 14:48:07

I do honestly believe that most men look at porn and will lie to their wives/partners if they have a problem with it but yes it was very wrong of me to tell her that I do believe her husband is lying. I haven’t meant to offend anyone and I hope I haven’t. I respect this forum and have found advice from participants on other threads very helpful. Opinions are like arseholes, everyones got one and mine stinks, according to some.

"It's the idea that some women think it's somehow cheating that makes men lie about it. Using the 'it's exploitative' line is just covering up this fact."

Andula. What are you talking about? Who are these women that think it's somehow cheating? You're saying that woman are jealous of the women in porn? Are you suggesting the people on this thread are lying?

ClippedPhoenix Tue 11-Dec-12 14:59:30

It's got nothing to do with "cheating" it's men getting their kicks out of women being degraded.

For me it show's the man thinks he's the lord and master.

zippey Tue 11-Dec-12 15:12:01

Interesting thread, but its a shame when someone comes along with a different set of opinions as "shoesme* (and a couple of others) has done, people want to gang up and bully them off.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 15:12:16

There is a couple of posters on this thread who have said they or their dp see it as cheating.

So do I, though obviously not in a traditional nor physical sense.

I realise this is a rare opinion that many find laughable, but that is my opinion. I

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 15:17:24

Thank you Zippey, I'm a tough cookie though x

rubyrubyruby Tue 11-Dec-12 15:19:18

Zippey - shoesme wasn't expressing an opinion, he was insinuating other posters were delusional and assuming all men were like him.

Notafoodbabyanymore Tue 11-Dec-12 15:19:52

My DH was a heavy porn user, how heavy I didn't discover until a couple of years into the relationship. In fact, he was desperate to stop, but was addicted.

When he finally came clean about his addiction, I cried my eyes out. I do see it as a form of cheating if you receive sexual gratification from someone other than your DP. It was also damaging to the sexual relationship as he had become used to sexual encounters being about himself.

Also, he is a Christian and believed in the scriptures quoted above, just felt helpless to stop.

He cried, apologised profusely and begged me to help him. Over the last couple of years, he has worked so hard to break the habit and I'm so proud of him, as he genuinely doesn't use porn anymore. I feel more valued as a wife than ever and our sexual relationship is wonderful.

In answer to the original question, he doesn't use porn anymore because he has too much respect for me, his kids, himself, God and other people.

Meh, shoesme, that's your opinion. I think you may be right about many 18-20 year olds nowadays.

However, most people in their late 30s - 50's weren't born into this pornified world, so have a different experience to you. Even if they were, many of them will have enough world experience or knowledge of the porn industry, or have daughters of their own, to come to a decision that they don't need a video to have a wank.

Zipey, as Ruby said, It's being told that my husband is a liar that really, really pisses me off.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 16:06:53

Meh, for as many years as I've been on here, I've had men ( and women, though far less these days) come on to threads like this one and try to tell me that I'm naive or delusional to think I could possibly know that my DH definitely doesn't use porn and that he must be lying to me - he has no reason to lie - up until about 3 years ago, I had no strong opinions on porn.

He's just a normal bloke, no strange fetishes, no religious beliefs, he's not asexual ( Do I have to spell it out that he is very keen on sex?) he just isn't interested in porn and never has been.

I don't think that all men who use porn are bad people who hate women, most are truly ignorant about the realities of the porn industry and the harm it does men and women, I do think they are lazy though and the ones who do lie about it to partners who have objections to porn use are fairly abusive and disrespectful.

Do you admit that you are wrong in your assumptions now Shoesme?
There are dozens of women on here telling you that their partners aren't porn users - extrapolate that out to the wider population, do you get it now?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 16:08:59

Well I apologise for insinuating that peoples husbands are liars, I do know of men who hide watching porn from their better halves because they don’t like it, speaking to these women you’d be shocked with how little they know about what their husbands keep secret from them. That is just my experience though.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 16:12:01

Oh yeah i'm big enough to admit I was wrong in my assumptions, maybe it says more about me in regards to the people i know ha.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 16:14:49

Thing is, it's simply not true that all porn is made by abusing people who don't consent to it. There are people involved in making porn with consenting performers and an attitude that sex is fun and enjoyable. Quite a few of the men I know who do like porn prefer to seek out stuff that looks like a good time is being had by all concerned, and they are put off by the stuff that appears to involve hurting the performers and humiliating them.

I'm still fully aware that not everyone likes porn, and their reasons for not watching it can be varied. But not everyone who does like porn is (if male) an idiot or a misogynist, and certainly not every woman who likes porn is deluded and lying just to please men.

And I would also add that a man who makes a lot of noise about his hatred for porn (rather than just not watching it and saying, if pressed on the matter, that he is concerned about the exploitatiion of performers) is actually a man to be avoided. Men who are very anti-porn often have seriously distorted, madonna-whore views on women, whether they are right-wing religious misogynists, or the sort of creepy leftwingers who get off on telling women that they are Not Doing Feminism Properly.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 16:22:54

Do you think those relationships are healthy ones Shoesme? Do you have sympathy for the women being lied to to, presumably about more than their husbands' porn use too?
Can you see that those men are betraying their wives and behaving in an abusive manner so they can have a secret sex life , men like that aren't good husbands and fathers, how can they be when they treat their wives with such little respect?
Liars aren't good partners, being lied to is a deal breaker for the vast majority of people in long term relationships, secret porn use and the lies that go with it, is a major cause of divorce at the moment.

Well, all the men in my life who have been non users were simply non users not active objectors so I don't know about them.

However, we have reached the stage where there is a perception that non users are a freak asexual minority. - Or liars. Should they just go along with that or challenge it? I think it needs challenging.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 16:34:27

Bela, oh yeah i'll feel sympathy for these women, however because the women don't like it i don't feel that the men should have to not like it too, whatever just happened to being honest and being able to say, "Yes i watch pornography, I'm sorry you don't feel the same way but that is your problem not mine."

I don't see it as a secret sex life, isn't watching porn just the same as thinking about having sex with a celebrity when you masturbate, for example.

rubyrubyruby Tue 11-Dec-12 16:36:01

I'm glad you kept posting on this thread shoesme smile

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 16:37:03

We've been challenging it for years on here Thisis, in fact there are more women on this thread stating that their husbands don't use porn than on any other I can remember.
It's heartening to see so many people who don't think male = porn use = lying to his wife about it.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 16:37:59

Shoesme

If a man said that, then he should be very prepared the woman will walk out then.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 16:39:14

(Or vice versa where the man walks of course)

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 16:43:12

I agree entirely with SolidGold.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 16:51:41

Thank you Ruby, I think lol.

That's fair enough FBWorry, If a woman couldn't continue to be a part of my life because she was offended that i watched porn that's fine, whatever happened to loving someone because of who they are? Porn is only a small part of peoples lives, or it should be.

Applying it to a real world situation in regards to myself. I smoke, always have, always will. An ex of mine (I'm currently single, yes, yes, shocking isn't it) suddenly (it seemed) after a year or two of being together didn't like the fact that i smoked and pretty much pressured me into trying to quit, which i did, untill she went on holiday and i smoked my head off. If she was happy to decide to become part of my life that she should have been happy to accept my faults. She was fit though, god I don't half miss her ha.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 16:57:01

No-one has said all porn exploits women. Although all the porn I have ever known any men to watch if they so has been of that type and you have to go to some lengths to find stuff that is better ethically and even then you cannot get past the consent issues because of the exchange of money.

Saying that because some porn doesn't exploit or portray degradation of and humiliation of women that porn is not an issue in rape culture or gender inequality is like saying not all sex is rape so we shouldn't bother about that.

MamaMary Tue 11-Dec-12 16:59:09

As I said above, my DH does not use porn and is very self-aware about his reasons why. We have discussed the issue on more than one occasion.

Reading through the thread - a no. of observations:

- I do believe that a majority of men use porn. The industry is huge and pornographers say demand is simply insatiable, especially and increasingly for the violent stuff.

- I also think that porn is addictive and many men are addicted to it. They themselves know that it is incredibly destructive when you simply can't do without it, and that it screws normal relationships up completely. There have been many threads on Relationships here on MN where women report that their husbands try to give up porn and can't (are discovered a year down the line using it more than ever).

- In my view porn addiction/ frequent use is more of an issue with younger men: the ones who've grown up with the internet. Certainly, violent sexual offences/ rape/ gang rape seem to be getting worse and are committed by younger and younger men and this is surely no coincidence.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 17:00:46

Shoes - but you said men tell little white lies about porn and implied that was fine because it is just how men are. You agreed with andula when she/he said men "have to" lie to women about it because they "don't understand". I can't reconcile this with "what happened to honesty?" Because there is the very clear and logical explanation for what happened to honesty. For some reason some men are getting the message that they are entitled to lie to women and decide for them what they are allowed to feel.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 17:03:56

So if you you met a woman one day you really loved and made your life much better, you would atcually be prepared to lose her for the sake of porn?

You can still love someone without liking every part of them, but for me contined use of porn in-spite of knowing how much it distresed me, combined with a "its your problem" attitude would mean the end for me and Im sure others.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 17:09:45

And I'm yet to hear the case in favour of porn... Or at least anything beyond "oh lighten up it's just a bit of fun". Basically it is a risk/reward balance, no-one would die, no-one would be damaged, men would still be able to wank if porn disappeared tomorrow. Just the mere fact that the best argument in these threads is "it is a bit of fun" or "some of it is not that bad" compared to all of the people whose lives and relationships have been ruined surely should give a rational person some kind of bad feeling towards it.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 17:10:41

Back from shopping to find my DH danger-wanking to porn not

For the record, I don't class using porn as cheating.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 17:14:25

Notafoodbaby

Just wanted to say Im really pleased to hear how things have got better for you both smile

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 18:02:33

Sorry if I don’t answer every question, men (the ones I know) shouldn’t feel like they have to hide the fact that they watch porn, they should feel confident to tell their wives, from the beginning, that they do watch porn and will probably continue to do so, if the wives don’t like then get over it.

Bela, If a woman can’t take me as I am, then no I wouldn’t have a problem with ending the relationship (I’m presuming it wasn’t long term), I’m human, I have faults, people should expect that.

Anyway, I’m off home soon from work, I hope to carry on this conversation tomorrow, my internet is down at home so no Mumsnet or porn for me tonight :’-(

Also if you walk into your house tonight and your husband is a little sweaty, he hasn't been exercising.

It’s been a pleasure and I beg you good day xx

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 18:16:50

No, no really dont trouble yourself to come back.

We wouldnt want to get you into trouble when you should be doing your homework.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 18:23:41

I really like flirting with you though FBworry.

I think this might turn into a "thing" between us xoxox

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 18:30:30

Okay so porn is a fault? Is that what you are saying? That you see it as a negative but it is still "normal" and acceptable to lie about it to your intimate partner? How very helpless that is - "men tell lies" "men watch porn" what can you do eh? Just a fault but we all have them... Can you see why that is doing men down by making out they are helpless victims of what I guess you'd call either "animal instincts" or "nagging prudish wives who just don't understand"? Also how it is a misogynistic view because it assumes the superiority of this view you assert is the male view.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 18:30:47

Shoesme

I would ask you how old you are but I know you can't count that high

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 18:34:05

What's with the personal insults?

BigBoPeep Tue 11-Dec-12 18:44:36

dh says he 'isnt that fussed' and mostly its a quality issue - 'porn' is usually poor production and fakey in a weird way...not really erotic.

Selfdoubt Tue 11-Dec-12 18:45:06

Although I don't agree with Shoesme, there is no need for some comments. You can argue (like Offred is doing very well) without having to use other tactics.

Shoesme, I would urge you to do some research into the porn industry and then make an informed decision. As said, Offred is making a pretty good point with regards to your opinion and I hope that you're listening and taking note.

My DP knows he has a choice. Either he has a relationship with me, without porn, or he knows where the door is if he chooses to be pathetic enough to want something fake, and degrading as porn. But he prefers the real thing, and I won't let no stranger on the internet claim to know him better than me.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 19:04:08

Yeah im taking things in, always good to get other peoples opinions.

In regards to the porn industry, if a woman is happy to have that as a career and have a good life from it then fair play to her. Who am i to say what a woman can and can't do?

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 19:08:15

Shoesme

Can you please just stop this ridiculous insistence of yours that everyones dh is a liar. It does make you sound juvenile and as a consequence you shall be treated as one.

Im not prepared to take you seriously until you stop it. You have been challenged about this numerous times, even apologised and then went onto to do it again.

baskingseals Tue 11-Dec-12 19:10:36

offred you are so RIGHT

shoesme - not all men use porn. they really don't. maybe your mates do.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 19:12:46

If my DH is a little sweaty when I get in from work, it's because he's cooking my tea wink
That's what grown ups do.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 19:15:54

Bela

Agreed! Or doing the vacuuming or just got back from taking the dcs to park. Any number of helpful, family orientated things really smile

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:30:17

Maybe shoes' mates are lying to him about using/watching porn...

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:37:43

Can I ask if the porn-haters watch steamy films without their partners and get off on it? If so, where do you draw the line?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:40:21

So you are asking if people who object to porn watch and enjoy soft porn? What answer do you think we will give? There is plenty of soft porn in mainstream media yes, no, I don't think it is ok and yes I think it is often degrading and humiliating women, more so than some of the more ethical hardcore porn.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:41:30

So you object to all forms of erotica?

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 19:41:38

Offered thats what I said earlier. I think men can put on a bravado front to fit in with the stereotype male as its easier than sticking your neck on the line.

Andula I personally don't watch porn anymore, no.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:42:47

Not soft porn, I mean normal, 18 rated films.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 19:43:01

Ok, i should have made it clear, the men i know all watch porn. Normal, healthy men, no sexual deviants, just young healthy, mentally stable males.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:44:40

What do you mean by "erotica" because objecting to erotica is not what anyone has really mentioned on this thread. People have mentioned exploitation and degradation of women by the sex industry and now we are talking a little to how mainstream media is also part of that, where are you reading "against all erotica"? That sounds like the beginning of "you are just people who hate sex" to me...

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:44:58

I'd say 90% of the men I know watch porn online and own dvds

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:45:56

There is soft porn in mainstream media... Did you not realise that was what it was called?

Shoesme - you missed "in my opinion". How do you know they aren't lying?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:46:58

Does being against rape mean you hate sex? Some people might say so...

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:47:09

no I meant you personally, I wanted to know your view on the point at which getting aroused by other people's intimacy turns into degradation of women which is not to be tolerated.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:48:49

no soft porn is porn where you can't see genitals, like the stuff they show in hotels

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:48:56

But you seem to be coming from a perspective that porn is universally arousing and people have to prevent themselves being aroused by it if they object to it. Plenty of people just don't get aroused by porn of any kind.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:50:09

so you've never been aroused by anything sexual you've seen on tv?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:51:49

No soft porn is any pornography which isn't hardcore. So music videos and sex scenes in mainstream films are soft core porn...

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:52:12

Why is that hard to believe?

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 19:55:06

Steamy scenes crated by properly paid non exploited actors is very different from porn. Which is a nest, exploitative business which degrades women. And men.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 19:56:21

wow, its no wonder you're so angry wink

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 20:01:01

Who's angry?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:01:47

Except that a lot of mainstream films contextualise their sex scenes and their sex in an abusive/degrading way I think seeker. It isn't the sex that bothers me, it is the context.

I'm not angry, but I knew the ultimate accusation when you ran out of points would be something along the lines of "you need to lighten up and watch more porn, you must be so frustrated grin"... Quite predictable...

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:02:57

Yep blah blah people who don't like porn because it degrades women are boring/prudish/sex-haters... Blah blah...

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 20:03:44

Not really, I'm just surprised tbh. And you don't need context if its just a quick wank, you want to get straight to the filth grin

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:04:45

Me or you?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:05:51

You know masturbation and pornography are different things don't you?

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 20:07:26

Andula and Shoesme

Imaging at some point in the future your married with children (not sure if you are Andula?) would you mind your wife watching porn?

If so , would she only be allowed to do it with you?

If she turned you down for sex and chose to watch her favourite male porn star instead would it be ok by you?

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 20:07:48

seriously though, I wish there was more porn aimed at women. I'm not a huge fan of the male pov blow job vids, and there are a lot of those.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 20:08:36

woah, my wife??

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 20:10:11

??

AnyaKnowIt Tue 11-Dec-12 20:10:28

Dp doesn't watch porn, doesn't like it.

He has now stopped going to the car shows he use to love because he was getting fed up of the semi-naked women drapped over them.

crazyhead Tue 11-Dec-12 20:10:32

@Shoesme and Andula - my partner has never once watched porn. Just no interest in it. And given I wouldn't judge him at all if he had, I don't believe for a second he's lying about it. It would be like him randomly lying about never having eaten avocados, say. People are different - shock.

And the other thing is, that just because something is culturally prevalent, doesn't mean it makes it a positive thing, does it, or mean that you can't object to it? In lots of cultures, the vast majority of people smoke, but that hardly makes smoking unproblematic.

I also don't get this point about the fact that happening to be incidentally aroused by a couple having sex in a film making it hypocritical to object to porn.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 20:14:16

nothing wrong with different opinions, is there? op started this as a debate point and there are only a few with an alternative view so we get pounced upon.

Also, I never said it was hypocritical, I'm just interested in people's views.

yorkshirepuddin Tue 11-Dec-12 20:22:02

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

crazyhead Tue 11-Dec-12 20:24:19

@yorkshirepuddin - if you want to be cutting, at least use a dictionary - it comes across so much better you know.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 20:25:00

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Andula Tue 11-Dec-12 20:25:26

Haha, nice work

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:26:50

Yorkshire - you're quite desperate to discredit non-porn users. Why is that?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 20:27:54

Good things about porn - it can be something that people enjoy watching with a partner. There really is quite a lot of stuff that's made with consenting performers and without verbal abuse or sex acts that appear to be painful to one performer.
It can give people ideas for sex acts they'd like to try; role play scenarios or different positions or the use of sex toys.

It can be enjoyable for people who do not have or want a regular sexual partner.

Do those who object to porn object to written erotica as well? Some of that (stuff that is labelled and marketed as erotic fiction) can contain scenes of humiliation, degradation etc. Is it less of a problem as it's words only and no performers could possibly have been harmed in the producing of it?

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:29:18

No it is still a problem if it is written and part of my problem is precisely that the money erodes the "by choice" part of the consent.

RedIsMyColour Tue 11-Dec-12 20:31:46

(Namechanged as I don't normally comment on the sex threads...)

On pornography and erotica, people will have to draw their own lines in the sand but for me the clue is in the name.

Pornography is literally writing / media relating to prostitutes and erotica is writing / media relating to physical love.

The difference for me personally is in whether the people involved are both aroused and fully enjoying the sex for its own sake.

If they're faking pleasure for money as professional porn actors (or faking it because they're being coerced) it's pornography and I find it off-putting. The boobs are fake, the noises are fake, the juices are out of a bottle and don't even start me on depilated testicles - ugh! It's an entertainment media equivalent of poptarts or other unpleasant processed foodstuff.

Sexual media involving people who are both (or all) totally into the sex they're having is different. It's easiest to find in erotic fiction where some authors are skilled at depicting genuine sexual arousal and excitement. In principle, I suspect I'm enough of a voyeur to enjoy watching something where I honestly believed in the consent and full pleasure of everyone involved. Perhaps there are some films out there, made by people who are real exhibitionists and enjoying every minute, but I've never seen them.

Separately, I do also find calling women bitch / slut, humiliating them or simulating rape offensive and it seems to be prevalent in modern porn. As a teenager I saw a lot of porn due to a relative's profession (not what you might think - I had access to a warehouse of magazines of soft and hardcore variety and was of an age to find any sexual media fascinating) and the nastiness towards women does seem far greater these days for some reason. Then it was largely stupid but now it's nasty. I'm not an expert on the effects of participation in the sex industry but I can't watch this level of abuse of other human beings without feeling disgusted.

I read a lot and watched a fair bit of porn and spent too much time as an apologist when I was young and ignorant. As an adult I find most of what I've encountered dumb and misleading at best (no - whatever is done in the films generally isn't how to turn a real woman on) and offensive at worst. I do distinguish between porn and erotica.

dwagdays Tue 11-Dec-12 20:35:22

Have had a few long term partners who never used porn. One regularly went to sea and the films they screened of an evening were generally hardcore. He didn't find them arousing and certainly not in the context he could have viewed them in. Instead he would write me long letters, draft poems and read to himself. Other crew members were generally positive about his non attendance at screenings but it was noted and he got the piss taken too. He was highly empathetic and independently minded happy to give as good as he got if challenged about his conservative viewing habits.

The other hates the industry, the issues of consent, the victims created on and off screen. Hardcore stuff repels him, softer stuff he finds beyond absurd and in answer to the question posed above ordinary film sex scenes don't do it for him either. He has a lively sense of the ridiculous when he watches such things and prefers sex with a partner above all else. I find this attitude enriching.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 20:35:41

Offred: it sounds as though you are saying that any kind of sexually explicit entertainment (including the written word, paintings, crayon drawings and computer-manipulated imagery that does not involve live individuals) is 'wrong'. If so, why do you think that?

I just can't stand to be told that all men - 95% - use porn and those that don't are liars.

It's unbelievable to me that people can make these stupid, stereotypical and ignorant statements.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:39:47

No what I'm saying is degradation and humiliation of women is wrong and that porn using live actors who are paid money erodes the principle of consent.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 20:42:00

The sock puppets are coming out from under their rocks I see, wow, that almost never happens. hmm

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 20:42:39

Sgb, I've really never thought about it. My objection is too the sex industry and the way I feel about porn is deeper than feeling its exploitative etc. My gut says that written erotica is different (although I couldn't have a relationship with someone who found the kind of writing you describe titilating/attractive)

xkittyx Tue 11-Dec-12 20:45:22

I know for a fact my DH doesn't watch porn. That's because I used to make a point of being a bit bravado had used porn, visited strip clubs etc with previous partners before I knew a bit more about how exploitative the industry is. We were friends for years, when I was going on about going to a live sex show in Amsterdam he looked mortified! Told me he didn't bother with porn, and at that point he had no reason to lie as we were just friends and I had freely admitted to it.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 20:47:22

Offred: Do you also refuse to watch (and despise those who do) things like THe X Factor and various other reality TV shows? The level of cruelty and humiliation in mainstream media these days worries me. Look at Susan Boyle - she's making a lot of money (allegedly) these days but the public mockery nearly drove this rather vulnerable woman out of her mind. And most of it was down to the fact that, despite her musical talents, she's 'fat and ugly'.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:47:48

What you asked about was if written erotica that degraded and humiliated women was still objectionable to me, the answer is yes, but it doesn't contain the element which i feel makes pornographic images almost universally bad which is that the involvement of money erodes the principle of consent as does, in many ways, viewing porn. Especially when some voyeuristic pleasure is often drawn from the lack of consent involved in taking sexual pleasure from images.

CabbageLeaves Tue 11-Dec-12 20:48:23

I don't have issues with porn as a being unfaithful thing. I do have issues with the quality and the way women are depicted. It's crap quality and often requires female degradation.

When younger a partner tried to make me watch. I went along with it to 'spice up' things and not be uptight. Frankly I had to fake it, myself.

I have a partner who does not use porn to my knowledge. He certainly doesn't display any of the fairly typical attitudes or behaviour of a porn user. He is also the most amazing lover. I have never ever, had to fake or look for anything to 'spice' it up.

It's very odd why porn users want to insist others use it. Not really sure why you feel the need to do this. I don't care what you do.

yorkshirepuddin Tue 11-Dec-12 20:49:18

Wake up ladies. Your living in a fantasy world. Spread the love x

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:49:38

Yes, I also refuse to watch xfactor etal.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 20:51:31

I refuse to shop in supermarkets, I seek high welfare produce, fair trade goods, I cycle not drive etc whatever. Although I do it it isn't relevant really, you aren't required to accept it all if you do accept one part of the bad things about modern society,

CabbageLeaves Tue 11-Dec-12 20:53:35

Hmm sort of signature sign off there yorkshire x

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 20:53:57

I'm a woman who occasionally watches porn. My DH, however, has no interest in it. He isnt lying or hiding anything. It doesnt turn him on. He finds it stilted and set up and weird and says he would rather use his imagination.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 20:54:30

I know your question about reality TV was to Offred SGB, but I detest anything like X factor , BB, I'm a sleb etc. my DH hates it even more and gets into heated debate with anyone who watches it, like his sister.
I see it as the modern version of a Victorian freak show, meant to make the "plebs" feel better about their crappy little lives by inviting them to mock and humiliate others.

CaHoHoHootz Tue 11-Dec-12 20:57:50

My DH doesn't watch porn because it's tacky, plastic and revolting. His words. He is not at all prudish or uptight. I am glad he doesn't because it is such an exploitive industry.

Greensleeves Tue 11-Dec-12 21:10:26

dh's answer:

"I don't watch porn for the same reason I wouldn't watch a really gory slasher film with people being hacked to pieces. Because it's horrid. I find it unpleasant."

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 21:12:43

Offred: people who appear in any kind of performance take money for it (or nearly always, or they hope to). Actors in non-porn films sometimes have to do things that are painful or dangerous - or upsetting. Athletes and dancers earn money from their work and sometimes harm their health in doing it or training for it.

And, while there are going to be some porn viewers who get off on a lack of consent (either real or performed) there are other porn viewers who enjoy believing that the performers are having a good time - one appealing factor of porn, to a percentage of male viewers, is the message that women seek out sex without commitment, and enjoy it. This is not a bad message at all. The cultural insistence that women, in particular, must engage in committed relationships before they should have or enjoy sex is harmful.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 21:14:50

My point is, really, that porn is very often used as a kind of catch-all scapegoat for people's unease and misogyny - and that anti-porn crusades have repeatedly been a damaging dead end for feminism. Anti-porn feminists always find themselves standing next to people who may oppose porn but are no friend to women's freedom, either.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 21:23:25

Ok, but I fail to see how any of that is relevant. Consent is specifically a legal issue related to things such as sex, medical procedures and some contracts.

I also disagree that the message that women enjoy sex without commitment in the context of consent not being required is a good thing. All people need to learn how to relate to and respect others as individuals reinforcing ideas such as consent and commitment are not required or undesirable generally is not a good thing. There isn't anything wrong with requiring commitment from a sexual partner just as there isn't anything wrong with not requiring it. Porn easily leads women into trying to imitate porn attitudes to commitment also can put pressure on women to submit to sexual acts they don't want to submit to. It can be used specifically by men for this purpose. I don't feel there is a balance in what is portrayed by porn and it's ease and unchallenging sexual experience means a real woman can end up falling very short of expectations.

badinage Tue 11-Dec-12 21:24:56

None of the men I know who are anti-porn are misogynists. That just sounds like a slur on men who have the balls to admit to other men that they find it crass, tasteless and exploitative. This is in fact just the sort of mocking that posters have objected to about reality tv i.e oh look at the creepy men who object to porn, let's point our fingers and laugh at them hmm

What double-standards and hypocrisy.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 21:24:56

And I'm not a feminist. This is a predominantly female forum where I talk mostly about issues affecting women but that does not mean I have a special interest in women or women's issues.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 21:27:31

I have to go to bed because I have a ridiculous headache (and have done all day) so I just can't think anymore. Will check again tomorrow eve probably as busy day tomorrow.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 21:27:50

Badianage

Thats actually a really good point.

yorkshirepuddin Tue 11-Dec-12 21:30:35

Just face it, unless you can f**k like a pornstar an do the things they do your 'DP' is getting off on watching other women! Obviosly hes not going to tell you cus he knows your opinion of it, so he tells you what you want to hear. Its disgusting! Then again it sounds like most of you are 60+ so it might have died down with your 'DP'

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 21:36:51

Hello, in answer to FBworry, I wouldn't have a problem if my wife watched porn on her own, however i would feel it was a problem if it affected our sex life. People do view porn and have a normal sex life, it's not just black and white, there's 50 shades inbetween. Just because a man will watch porn doesn't mean he will neglect his partner.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 21:41:02

Are you an immature wanker all the time Yorkshire or are you making a special effort just for us frigid old prudes?
Who the hell wants to fuck like a porn star? fake tits, fake pleasure , fake sexual arousal and men who wouldn't know how to get a real woman off if they had a sat-nav configured to a woman's genitals.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 11-Dec-12 21:42:51

Thought you had no internet at home Shoesme? hmm Whats the matter, couldnt resist a look at your sock puppetry handiwork?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 21:45:35

Im on my phone, i thought it would just be the desktop site but it's the mobile version so less faffing. They need to make an Android app version as i lost my Iphone with the app on :-(

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 21:49:18

Shoes, are you a regular then? If you had the app.

I'm not even going to respond to yorkshire. I'm sure he's used to it from women.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 21:52:36

Oh ignore Yorkshire, I find him quite sweet as he is just trying so hard

Shoesme I do agree it is not black and white but there is evidence an increased number of divorces are down to porn ,when one partner slowly begins to completely neglect their partner over porn. Nobody will put up with that for too long, man or woman.

Not to mention rising ( or maybe not so "rising") problems of ED due to over exposure of porn.

Selfdoubt Tue 11-Dec-12 21:56:46

Shoesme, is porn that great to you that you would wave goodbye to the real thing if they refused to accept it? If so, what makes it so great that it beats a non-fake, real blooded woman?

And what is wrong with using your imagination, rather than watching a whole 50 shades of fake act?

MKG Tue 11-Dec-12 21:58:22

My dh hasn't watched porn since my mom cleaned our house while babysitting the kids and found his hiding spot. Let's just say she humiliated the need for it out of him. smile

yorkshirepuddin Tue 11-Dec-12 21:58:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 22:06:40

Im a long time lurker.

It's not that great it's such a huge deal to me, im more trying (badly) to make the point that in relationships people need to accept that no one is perfect and your partner will more than likely do things you don't approve of, as long as it's all good and healthy (as watching porn can be) then i don't think it should be a big issue.

FBworry, yes i can see how it can lead to relationship problems, especially with how easily available it is these days and, ironically, socially acceptable by people like me.

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 22:07:16

Do you think there's a special sirn that sounds in their world whenever a woman types the word "porn"?

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 22:10:00

Seeker, it's like a bat signal that only men can see.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 22:12:22

Shoes, so you are a single man in your 20's who lurks on a predominately female parenting website where we discuss breastfeeding and periods? I don't understand why.

I've always found men who use aggressive language online are actually scared of women. Poor lambs.

Selfdoubt Tue 11-Dec-12 22:13:49

But then it is down to that person to decide if they can live with it, or not. Then down to the one with the habit or what not to decide if they are willing to change, or not. Just because someone objects, it doesn't give a man/woman the right to tell "white lies" as you called them, and deceive their partner. That shows a lack of respect. They either be honest with their partner, and deal with the consequences, or change. Lying just takes the choice away from the wronged, and is a cuntish thing to do. And cowardly.

But, at least they will have their porn and their hand to keep them warm at night when they are old and lonely...

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 22:16:26

Blame, i'm a single dad in my 20's so this website is relevant to my interests. Although I don't think I've used aggressive language, although i appreciate that's subjective. I think i just got a bit giddy earlier.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 22:19:08

Watching porn is not healthy or good though imo.

Yes nobody is perfect, but porn is something that should be a no brainer between choosing it or someone you love.

A really hope that when the day comes and you meet someone you could build your life, if she asks you to stop you can. If you cant you must be addicted tbh . I don't think you will thank yourself that you missed out on love for a couple of wanks.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 22:20:06

Selfdoubt, oh yeah that's fine. If someone doesn't like that i may watch porn than that's fair enough, find a man who doesn't. Some women just don't care that a man will watch porn.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 22:22:54

My previous major relationships the women have watched porn too so it's never really been an issue, although i appreciate in the future that may not be the case.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Tue 11-Dec-12 22:24:03

I disagree with you, but you haven't used particularly aggressive language. I was referring to another poster.

Selfdoubt Tue 11-Dec-12 22:25:09

And that is fair enough, if they don't mind. But as you were saying earlier with regards to all men lying, that is not fair enough, especially on their partners.

To be honest, you aren't painting your circle of friends very well at all. they sound at the very least like selfish cowards.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Tue 11-Dec-12 22:40:05

Of course some people who oppose porn are well-meaning and not particularly creepy. But some anti porn men are really creepy. I know this through having met a few. And it wasn't the wellbeing of the performers that bothered them, it was the fact that the performers were 'skanky sluts' who 'rip men off' and are 'too stupid to get a proper job.'

seeker Tue 11-Dec-12 22:48:22

"Of course some people who oppose porn are well-meaning and not particularly creepy"

Wow. Just wow.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 22:59:40

I know have known some men (and women) with that attitude too, sgb, and equally don't tolerate that mindset when I see/hear it

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 22:59:50

know

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Tue 11-Dec-12 23:25:08

Have just asked DP to tell me the actual reason he doesn't watch it, he said he thinks it's boring.

I don't have too much of a problem with it and he knows I wouldn't bother if he told me he did but he doesn't, he's just never really liked it, refused to watch it with me a few years ago when I would ask him (not interested in watching it now though).

We both read erotica though, him less than I.

Also, his computer isn't password protected, neither is his phone and we both share laptops.

Don't doubt for a minute that he has the occasional wank, just doesn't need or want porn to do it.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 23:26:29

does he wank "aggressively" or even "dangerously" though

it's a speshul kind of wanking, I believe hmm grin

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Tue 11-Dec-12 23:33:36

How do you wank dangerously? Is that like the people who do it with a noose around the neck? confused

An aggressive wank? That sounds a bit painful, he's a wimp. grin

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Tue 11-Dec-12 23:35:01

Ahh just seen the post you mean.

Must say, have just been reminded of hedgehog cam. grin

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 23:37:51

heh

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 23:40:12

A danger wank is where there's a good chance of getting caught, wife pops out for 2 mins etc lol

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Tue 11-Dec-12 23:44:03

Ahh okay, doesn't seem so intriguing now. sad

cgno Tue 11-Dec-12 23:44:58

Just my 2 cents, I've known for a while now that the porn industry has been trying really hard to make it's self mainstream. Not for any altruistic purpose but just to make money. They don't care about any consequences that it may or may not have on people.

Sure, since the camera was invented there have been dirty pictures that men have looked at but it's nothing compared to whats happened in the last 15 years. Hardcore porn use to illegal, but the law got changed when the internet came along, with out asking anybody, because they knew they couldn't control it.

Shoesme Tue 11-Dec-12 23:46:07

Yeah it's not like there might be a chance of death, although that might be the case judging by peoples opinions on here ha.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 11-Dec-12 23:46:39

shoesme, a personal question for you

you don't have to answer if you don't want, and fgs, don't accuse me of flirting with you grin

you do know that wanking can be a mutually pleasurable pastime, don't you ?

it doesn't always have to be a nasty little secret, like you make it out to be

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Tue 11-Dec-12 23:51:13

Well, there is a point where the amount some people masturbate is no longer natural. Some men (and women) seem to forget that what they are doing might be hurting their partners feelings and lets face it, most people enter a relationship or a marriage knowing the other half views and boundaries.

If they aren't acceptable then that should come out at the start, not ages later. I can perfectly understand why a lot of people wouldn't be happy at their DP/DH/DW masturbating and/or watching porn.

FBworry Tue 11-Dec-12 23:54:20

Do you wear a special t shirt and cape for these " danger wanks" and have a team of men on watch with their binoculars and little walkie taklies shouting "fgs shes just pulled up. Shes walking up driveway with the netto carrier bags. OMG she putting the key in the door. Quick lad you got seconds to spare"!

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Tue 11-Dec-12 23:54:52

Arf!

Morloth Wed 12-Dec-12 01:17:44

DH is free to use porn, he is an adult, it is legal. He cannot however use porn and be married to me. His call.

He has not ever given me any reason to doubt his word in the last 20 years so I don't think I will be starting now.
It is a fact that 95% of people who say all men use porn are lying to themselves.*

*see how easy that is to type? You just say it is a fact and give a number and tada! It is true!

We have this fantastic arrangement you see, where we are both adults and we choose to be together, accepting some things that we do not like about each other and having lines in the sand for others.

Notafoodbabyanymore Wed 12-Dec-12 01:21:53

Thanks FB, I can only speak for myself when I say that porn use could easily have destroyed my marriage, and I don't see it as either healthy or just a bit of fun.

It feeds a culture of sexual consumerism, it damages relationships, it objectifies women's bodies (and men's, to a lesser extent), it perpetuates myths about physical beauty and sexual behaviour, it often exploits vulnerable people, and it can be addictive and destructive.

This is how I feel about it, though I accept others won't agree.

I think it's utter crap to say that men who say they don't use porn are by and large lying. It is up to those who say that to prove their claim. There must be some research into the subject. Stats please.

There can probably be few more personal subjects than "porn use" (by which I mean getting oneself off to xxx rate movies). Yes it is no doubt true that plenty of men, when challenged by their partners, protest innocence with wide eyes and fingers crossed in their pockets. However, it is certainly also true that plenty of men will not admit to disliking porn in front of their friends of work colleagues for fear of ridicule. It is also true that a good many men - even those who know each other well - will not discuss their views of porn for precisely the same reason. It is just too personal. Everyone has their secrets: sometimes it is best kept that way. It is more pleasant for everyone to discuss football instead. To be frank, I think most men would rather simply not express a view on the subject - except online under a pseudonym of course.

Furthermore, I bet you also that a considerable number of those who do tell lies are men who do disapprove of viewing porn (for whatever reason - moral/religious, partner's dislike) but who have very occasionally yielded to temptation. There is a huge difference between such people and those who stay up into the small hours, glued to a screen in a darkened room, motionless but for a flickering hand.

That said, those I know who do enjoy porn are a mix - some are successful in relationships, others less so. None of them are into hardcore porn to my knowledge.

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 07:06:57

I'm not sure men who watch porn commonly associate pornstars with other women either sgb thinking more about how men learn about women and sex from porn. I think porn encourages objectification because the women are very 1 dimensional there are pornstars and there are wives. Pornstars "love what men want" and wives don't which is why you "have to" lie to your wife about using porn, wives being actual people with actual needs of their own. I think it encourages men to objectify and categorise women by their purpose just like how shoes and yorkshire are showing on here.

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 07:07:59

Shoes - I don't believe porn is ever "good and healthy".

Oblomov Wed 12-Dec-12 07:12:02

Dh doesn't. He can, its just he doesn't. But if dh told me he had, I wouldn't be bothered. Because it would be such a rare occassion, that it would just not be an issue.
I have no interest in it and it does nothing for me, so I don't either.

I know lots of people do. But is it really so hard to beleive that some of us don't? Hopefully not.

offred

I think you're discounting the fantasy element of porn. I expect that most men know perfectly well that pornographic movies hardly reflect reality any more than Mills and Boon books do: if they did, they'd not be as popular.

No doubt there are some men who can't tell the difference: but whether porn makes them like that is another question.

Shoesme Wed 12-Dec-12 08:22:09

Anyfucker, of course i know that and it is very nice to do. People can watch porn and have a healthy sex life. As for the danger wank thing i'm just playing, kind of. Maybe it's a thing when you're young and your hormones are all over the place.

Shoesme Wed 12-Dec-12 08:25:47

Offred, I don't think I've categorized women at all, if anything I've done that to us men by portraying us all of being a slaves to watching porn.

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 08:42:36

Not discounting anything which is why I said I think it encourages...

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 08:43:19

I think you have shoes when you say men have to lie to their intimate partners.

yorkshirepuddin Wed 12-Dec-12 08:51:39

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

I think you're still dreaming yorkshire

That's all very well for you, but my yorkshire pudding fails to rise.

QuickLookBusy Wed 12-Dec-12 09:23:07

Ha ha, you wish.

FrancesFarmer Wed 12-Dec-12 09:23:16

DH doesn't watch porn - he is very squeamish and finds the sight of bodily fluids etc on screen repulsive.

He is good at real-life sex, though, which is far more important.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 09:32:33

That's nice Yorkshire dear <pats head>

I've had a nice bit of anal sex this morning and my DH has now gone out to take the kids to school then go and do the shopping to come back and cook me breakfast. All without any porn or danger wanking.

Is this relevant to the discussion? No it isn't. Much like your post.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 12-Dec-12 09:49:26

Is a danger wank what DangerMouse does to relax?

FBworry Wed 12-Dec-12 09:58:58

Yorkshire

I have terrible troubles getting my Yorkshire puddings to rise.

Do you ever have any troubles getting your little pudding to rise too?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Wed 12-Dec-12 10:20:03

Offred: Long before mass media, let alone long before internet porn, there was a whole culture of 'wives' being respectable and disliking sex, while 'whores' did it because they were nymphomaniacs. One of the benefits of the relaxation of censorship was it did allow people, particularly women, to see that sex, sexual arousal, sex for fun rather than procreation, was OK and that women can enjoy it as much as men.

People who blame porn for misogyny have simply got it the wrong way round. The bulk of the porn industry (still a stigmatized, minority trade which doesn't make nearly as much money as its opponents like to claim), where it is sexist, is reflecting a wider and older patriarchal mindset of women existing purely for men's benefit.

The mainstream media eg terrestrial television and newspapers, has always peddled sexism, tribalism and malice, it's just that, from time to time, they need to chuck up a scapegoat for the Ills Of Modern Life. ANd it's always a smaller industry, a minority interest (compared to the might of, say, News International.)
If it's not porn it's video games, specific genres of music, specific genres of film ie horror films. People with a lot of free-floating anxieties jump on the bandwagon, as do a lot of those who are basically completely unimaginative, the sort of people who haven't read any fiction since they were at school and only watch the sort of film or TV that's 'just like real life' or passes as such. These people have a very llimited understanding of human nature - which of course makes it very easy to whip them up in rage against some percieved 'danger'.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 10:33:30

So SG, let me just wade through your convuluted wittering with random boldings Just to clarify, you think that porn is not damaging or exploitative?

You also think that those who do find porn damaging and exploitative "unimaginative" and you assume that they haven't read any fiction since they are at school?

Wow. Just wow. How very naive.

badinage Wed 12-Dec-12 10:36:02

There you go again, this time pointing the finger and laughing at the stupid people who get whipped up into a froth by the media hmm

Do you think the people on this thread are like that then? That they haven't read widely and can form opinions for themselves?

Misogyny has been around since long before porn and no-one suggests otherwise. Neither has anyone said that porn is the only industry that despises women. But you seem to be saying that just because it's part of a bigger picture of misogyny, people are stupid to object to it.

I can object to lots of things that demean women, thanks very much.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 10:38:28

Totally agree badin

FBworry Wed 12-Dec-12 10:44:35

Whats with all the random embolding?

SGB, usually I find your arguments really compelling and cohesive but you are really all over the place on this:
1. Some people who are anti-porn are misogynists.
Umm, well, that may be but it doesn't discredit the fact that most of the porn industry, as it stands, is almost entirely misogynistic. Sites like, Make Love not Porn are trying to counteract that, but they are not getting very far. To deny it is misogynistic is really odd.
2. The porn industry is not that rich.
er, it is massively wealthy - some of the people involved in it are worth billions - funnily enough, not the female performers.
3. There's misogyny everywhere why blame porn?
yup, agree with you it is all around and porn is one element of it. However, when my fourteen year old neices are on face time with boys and the boys are writing, I'm gonna come over your face, your tits, etc, etc, I think this is a direct reaction to porn, and sadly, I think my neices reaction, oh gosh, giggle, giggle, is the same too.

FBworry Wed 12-Dec-12 10:57:34

You know in the past few weeks or so I read or heard men on TV saying things along the lines of "Im going to go out and find me some slag tonight " or "its worth visiting Essex you'll always get some bitch up for it".

DH even said a group of (mostly married) men at work were talking about getting hotel rooms after the Christmas party incase they "found some bird to shag them". These are highly educated men too.

You may think how thats a fabulous reflection that men now realise women are as just as up for a quick shag as them, but it makes me realise that instead men have reduced women to nothing more than a hole. Hardly empowering.

yorkshirepuddin Wed 12-Dec-12 11:00:36

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

QuickLookBusy Wed 12-Dec-12 11:09:53

Gosh, your coming across as rather deranged and nasty Yorkshire.

Do you mean to?

Yorkpud Wed 12-Dec-12 11:09:57

I don't think watching porn is that much of an everyday activity for most men. I don't think it interests my husband tbh though I am sure he has seen it before as I have too. It doesn't really interest me either, I would rather just get on with my own sex life without watching other people pretending to enjoy sex with someone else - yuk!!

QuickLookBusy Wed 12-Dec-12 11:10:09

you're

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 11:13:21

Yorkshire hasn't the bell gone for your next lesson? Run along now, it might be an English lesson and you can't afford to miss it.

Oh and we can say fuck here. If you want to use big boy language then don't asterisk it out. It looks silly.

<polishes apple for Yorkshire to give to his teacher and ruffles his hair>

Off you pop now you cheeky scamp.

FBworry Wed 12-Dec-12 11:16:13

grin mrsWolowitz

Yorkpud, you're not married to yorkshirepuddin, are you?
If so, you have my sympathies!

icovetthee Wed 12-Dec-12 11:27:33

My DP watched porn as a teenager and in his early twenties. He stopped when I told him that if he was going to watch it I would prefer to watch it with him. We did for a while and he realised it was out of sheer boredom than for enjoyment. He hasn't watched porn in years.

He simply doesn't find it necessary. He has a partner and an imagination and has since realised and told me that he thinks of those girls as someone our daughters could one day become and it turns him off.

If he wanted to watch porn it wouldn't bother me much.

yorkshirepuddin Wed 12-Dec-12 11:53:40

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 12-Dec-12 11:56:38

That's nice dear, mwah x

FBworry Wed 12-Dec-12 12:02:54

Aww so cute when its angry! Must be all the hormones.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 12-Dec-12 12:07:26

If it's really 25 it must have severely underdeveloped genitals to be so immature wink. Perhaps testosterone injections might help?

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 12:08:07

Don't worry Yorkshire it's natural to get angry and irrational with all those hormones rushing around. Don't panic about your voice changing or the downy hair appearing on your chest and around your winky either. It's all perfectly natural.

There there.

<pats Yorkshire's head in a soothing way>

BelaLugosisShed Wed 12-Dec-12 12:11:19

<whispers> I think he's a bit scared of women , they probably laugh at him, a lot wink

I think he's got 'mother issues'.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 12:17:31

I think he's one if the muppets boys from Tool Academy.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 12:18:07

*of. Tsk.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 12-Dec-12 12:31:37

I think he's had to go for a nap, trying to mix it with the big girls has made him all grumpy and tired, I can just picture his screwed up little face, all pink and angry. grin
Bless.

Andula Wed 12-Dec-12 13:15:46

SolidGold is completely right when she says the media distorts the effects of the porn industry (along with other things) for the sake of selling papers. The fact is, the selling of porn or subsrciption to porn websites, is falling drastically due to the availability of free, amateur stuff online. Louis Theroux recently made a documentary about it, before I get accused of throwing in random facts.

I think that most of the women on here who are offended by it will always be an will always consider it a form of cheating or not be able to stay with a partner that uses it. But I would suggest that it's just a matter of taste and sex drive, which varies a lot from relationship to relationship. And no matter how hard you try argue, there are LOTS of men who lie about using it, precisely because of this mad reaction.

Don't think my OH is really interested. I've suggested watching it together in the past, but he's not really bothered. Also, he's not a fan of giant boobs and fake looking women, so that's probably part of it.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 12-Dec-12 13:19:35

Andula, whilst some people have posted that they consider it cheating (as a sexual response provoked by another person), many others have stated they see it as an abusive industry where women are ill treated.

I wouldn't call either of those positions "offended by it"

Andula Wed 12-Dec-12 13:23:44

where they 'think' that women are ill-treated

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 13:28:18

I'm not offended by porn.

But I am aware that much of it is made by exploited and/or trafficked women. And there is no way of knowing the difference. So anybody who cares about what hqppens to vulnerqble women, or working conditions generally, would not put any money onto the industry.

And that is before we consider the less practical impact that the increasing "pornification" of society is having on people, particularly young people.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 12-Dec-12 13:29:42

What's the difference between "they see it as" and "they 'think' that"?

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 13:29:54

I doubt poor little puddin will be back now, tbh.

Andula, I saw that too and still cannot see how an industry that sells women like toys can not be exploitative.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 13:49:31

Seeker is spot on.

It's not a 'mad reaction' to not want to support or not to become aroused by an industry that uses exploited and trafficked women. I know not all porn workers fall into these categories but I sure as hell won't support an industry that uses even a small minority of workers that do.

DH feels the same and just has no interest in porn. Never has and I doubt he ever will.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 13:52:05

Can I ask the posters that support porn, what are your views on prostitution?

I find your posts really offensive andula.

Again, with the accusation that our Dhs are lying.

Again, with the suggestion that it's a 'question of sex drives' - another slur.

What makes you think you know men so well and the rest of us don't?

You really think porn is that irresistible, do you? can I ask how old you are? You do know that 50 years ago, there were no videos of anything, let alone porn. You know that there are some parts of the world that don't have it. Can you believe it!

I don't think it's cheating and Im not bothered by porn made by women - but you telling me what I and my dh really think is infuriating.

badinage Wed 12-Dec-12 14:19:32

Andula

I don't regard porn as cheating.

I have a high sex drive.

If someone wants to lie to me about this or anything else, that's the liar's problem. I take no responsibility for 'making' that person lie. You really must have a very jaded and dim view of men to think that the poor poppets have to lie to save them from women's anger.

It's almost as bad as your caricature of jealous, asexual and 'mad' women....hmm

It does make you wonder why some posters are so invested in propogating these myths about men and women. Why do some people have such trouble getting their heads around the fact that a lot of men and women don't need porn to prop up their very rewarding sex lives?

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Wed 12-Dec-12 14:23:50

MrsWolowitz: In that case I take it that you never eat in a restaurant, or buy cut flowers. That you make all your own clothes and either have a big enough garden to grow all your own veg or a high enough income to buy entirely organic food.
Because otherwise you are giving money to industries where a percentage of workers are exploited and abused. They might not have to suck cock in front of a camera (they may well have to suck cock but they don't officially get paid specifically for that) but they work for very little money, in dangerous conditions, often under a constant threat of violence.

Yes, the working conditions in the porn industry are a cause for concern, and there are people trying to improve workers' rights within the industry. But all this stuff about how all filmed performance of sex is inherently degrading is subjective opinion. GOod porn can be liberating because it breaks the links between sex and love. THe insistence on the importance of heteromonogamy is actually quite bad for women, because the real motivation of sanctifying heteromonogamy is to ensure women's social and domestic services for men.

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 14:36:04

Sgb - the others have already covered the crux of what I'd say. Your argument doesn't address any of the points. I don't think the relax of censorship of porn allowed women to see sex as fun/pleasurable because I don't think that is what porn shows about women experiencing sex and if it were true then there wouldn't be such a poverty of porn made for women.

None of those arguments are relevant to the topic, they don't explain how porn is good, not misogynistic or anything else they simply say some other things might have been worse although I'm not sure the reality is that different, how many women really are empowered to enjoy sex and demand that their enjoyment is part of a joint sexual experience with man? I'd say this is a massive problem and porn has a lot of responsibility because of all this "trying out of moves" and faking it that goes on...

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 14:38:18

I wouldn't class myself as having an anxiety about porn either. Nor would I call my objection "free floating". I have very specific and well thought out objections.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 14:39:25

See, I do equate sex with love. And I'm happy with that.

Sgb, what are your opinions on prostitution?

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 14:42:23

No-one has said all filming of sex is inherently degrading and I challenge you to quote someone saying that sgb.

Your points about other types of exploitation are irrelevant. A person is entitled to object to sexual exploitation but not economic exploitation if they like. Why doesn't it work the other way? Not objecting to sexual exploitation means you must sanction it and all other sexual exploitation yes? Or no, because that'd be a ridiculous extrapolation...

badinage Wed 12-Dec-12 14:43:15

Porn isn't marketed to show sex on women's terms and you know it. It is ridiculous to try to pretend that porn is pro-women's sexuality and liberation when in fact most the most popular porn depicts women being 'done to' on men's terms. If you've fallen for the propoganda that porn empowers women, that's your own choice but don't expect other people to believe it.

You liken porn to other things that consumers want to buy, but this thread is actually about something that posters (specifically men) don't want to buy, for a variety of reasons. There are no ethical dilemmas because the product is of absolutely no interest to them in the first place.

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 14:43:52

Porn doesn't break the links between sex and love in any other way than to categorise some women as objects for sex and other women as objects for love.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 12-Dec-12 14:44:08

Nobody is obsessing about of "the importance of heteromonogamy" except you SGB, as always.

Offred Wed 12-Dec-12 14:45:16

And people need food, they don't ever need porn so it is a different type of choice altogether nevermind it being a different type of exploitation.

hellymelly Wed 12-Dec-12 14:46:23

I haven't read the whole thread but my DH doesn't watch porn, or read it, and he never has been a porn user. He is 40. I feel very sad when I read about how common it is, particularly among younger men. I have two dds and the thought that the boys they will date may well be porn users is very depressing.

MrsWolowitz Wed 12-Dec-12 14:52:40

SGB I am very selective about where I eat and what I buy as I am careful to avoid as much involvement with companies and industries where workers are mistreated or exploited.

Once again though your post is convoluted and doesn't actually make much sense as you are adding comments that haven't been said.

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 14:53:06

That is such a stupid argument. You are not allowed to care about this exploitation- the one under discussion- because there are others. Start a thread about developing world children making clothes, or the exploitation of Rose growers and I'll happily join in. But this is about porn.

And the general porn that most people think of when they hear the word is not "good for women" by detaching sex from love- it is bad for women because it is targeted at men and encourages them to think of women as 3 willing holes.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 14:55:24

I agree with seeker.

Andula Wed 12-Dec-12 14:56:13

Here is a funny and astute article about porn from the Guardian, please read it

www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2012/apr/30/porn-panic-daily-mail?INTCMP=SRCH

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Wed 12-Dec-12 15:01:42

Gutted, lots of posts deleted before I got to see them! sad

I think they said something about age though? 15 25 apparently? He's older than me and I think that if you need porn to get your rocks off at that age (or any age really), then there is something seriously wrong with your relationship, if you're not in a relationship then you're setting yourself up for a fall if you can't find someone into the same crap as you have been watching.

I really don't see the point in porn, all this talk of "fantasy", well why not play your fantasies out with your partner? Or if it really is a fantasy, would it not be better represented with your imagination? Instead of having to look at a bloody boring screen. confused

Andula Wed 12-Dec-12 15:02:01

he's got a point, right?

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 15:03:03

Is it? An article by a porn user mocking people who object to pornography without actually addressing the reasons for the objection.

Doesn't seem particularly clever, funny or astute to me.

Andula Wed 12-Dec-12 15:05:20

what paper(s) and magazines do you read Blame? (Be honest)

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 15:07:09

Well, he might possibly have a point, if a rather glib and patronising one, if I were objecting to porn because it shocks or outrages me But as that is not why I object, it is completely irrelevant.

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 15:09:09

I don't read newspapers (apart from our local one) and I read various conde nast publications like easy living and glamour.

Andula Wed 12-Dec-12 15:11:40

His point isn't just about the hyprocrisy of the mail it's about the fact that it's easy and lazy to lump all porn together and stand on a soap box protesting about it

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 15:15:37

So how do you tell which porn involves trafficked/exploited/vulnerable women and which doesn't?

badinage Wed 12-Dec-12 15:15:56

You think that article is funny and astute?

He's right about the hypocrisy of Paul Dacre, but like some of the posts on this thread, he's just another porn user trying to poke fun at anyone who dares to object to his entitlement, implying that they are all stupid frothers who can't distinguish proper research from a tabloid newspaper. I thought that article was a patronising load of shite written by a man who thinks he's much funnier than he actually is.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 12-Dec-12 15:16:05

All he was really doing was poking fun at (and pointing out the hypocrisy of) the daily mail, something that happens on MN every day <shrugs>

The vast majority of internet porn is bad for women and men, it shows sex being done to women, without joy, without respect, , without mutual enjoyment, at best it's cold and mechanical, at worst it's misogynistic and abusive.
It shows women as passive recipients - how is that a good thing again?

BlameItOnTheChoirOfAngels Wed 12-Dec-12 15:16:49

Andula, could you answer my question from further down, where dio you stand on the issue of prostitution?