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Husband had a lap dance....?!?

(595 Posts)
Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 01:55:08

Hi all, this is the first time I've posted on here but just needed some impartial opinions!!
Back in August me and my husband planned a weekend away in Leeds as a break before baby arrived, I was 7 months pregnant. While watching TV a few nights before we went I looked at his phone and the normally stupid messages between him and his best friend (I know stupid of me to do so, it's not that I don't trust him but I've often found him telling his best friend things e hasn't told me, nothing major but stuff I thought we would have talked about). Anyway his messages referred to my husbands stag do which was 3 years ago and joked if he would be going back to the strip club in leeds to get another lap dance, I was absolutely mortified. I trust my husband completely and we've always been very open with no secrets, I did joke to him no strip clubs before he went on his stag do but he assured me that wasn't his thing so I didn't think anything more of it. When I confronted my husband he started by saying he had forgotten all about it as he was drunk, but the more I probed the more he released information, his friend had 2, he had to have one as it was his stag do etc! I tried to laugh it off as I wanted us to enjoy our weekend away but when I came home I became obsessed with finding out about the club and looking at you tube videos of lap dances to see what happens, and became really upset by it all. We never had an proper argument about it as he kept laughing it off and telling me it was his stag do and that in being silly but I couldn't help but picture a girl girating all around him in her lingere and him getting off on it. I'd managed to push it to the back of my mind but since I had our son 6 weeks ago and I look at my stretch marks and wobbly belly all I can think of is that my husband will always have this image of the girl all over him on his stag do and now ill never compare to this :-( I've since looked at his messages to his friend and they keep sending half naked pictures of celebs to each other talking about how hot they are etc. I honestly had this halo over my husband, we've been together more than 11years and I thought I knew him inside out and never thought he was just like every other man oogling these images and going to strip clubs, it's broken my heart to find out about his lap dance :-(
I just don't know if I'm over reacting and being completely naive, is this to be expected on a stag do? I spoke to one of my friends who was just as shocked but she seemed to think it was his stag do so may have been pushed into it. I don't know what to do, I love him so much and I know we won't split up over this, but I'm so secretly hurting I don't know how to get over it?
Has anyone else been in a similar position or any ideas how I can get over this?
H x

badinage Sat 01-Dec-12 02:18:59

You're not over-reacting and you're not naive.

Your husband and his mate think they are entitled to pay for sexual services on a night out.

It isn't to be expected on a stag do. Lots of men who respect womankind in general and not just the women in their close circle, wouldn't go near a lapdancing club on their stag do and if their mates tried to persuade them, they'd tell them to fuck off. In fact they'd be unlikely to have mates like this.

Neither would they swap pictures of naked women on their phones.

You don't have to hurt silently.

Hurt loudly.

Your husband lied to you about his stag night and he did remember.

Your mate has fallen into a common trap of thinking that women have just got to suck it up if men behave atrociously on a stag do.

No woman has to suck it up, so don't be one of them.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 07:49:59

I just don't know what to do in terms of gettin over it, should I try talking to my husband about it (although very time I raise it he's getting annoyed with me saying to just forget about it - easier said than done!)?

I'm trying to shake the image of him getting a lap dance out of my head but it just makes me feel sick every time. I don't have the jealous feelings towards her as such, I know she's doing a job and he was probably the 10th guy of the night, what I'm hating the thought of my husband enjoying it, and in that way ill never compare!

Part of me thinks I should just suffer silently as every time I do discuss it with him it's making him think of her where as if I leave it be he won't be thinking about it, does that make sense?!?

Feel so stupid fr it all, it's been their little secret for the last few years and I feel like I've been laughed at! I did say to my husband what if on my hen do I had of been on a mission to get kisses from other guys (like a hen do game, which I didn't!), he said he wouldn't have been bothered as it was my hen do! Thing is though, the idea of my hen so was celebrating my forthcoming wedding with my girly mates, it wasn't my last ditch attempt to be with another guy :-S

Thanks for any opinions!!

jammic Sat 01-Dec-12 07:57:47

My husband has a lap dance on his stag. It's not something he would normally do but he felt pressured by it being his stag. I was fuming. He admitted it straight away but I was really disappointed. We talked about it, he apologised and we moved on. Time is a great healer and everyone makes mistakes.

twosquared Sat 01-Dec-12 08:01:34

Please try not to worry too much, if its not a pattern of regular behaviour then I'm sure its okay. Its worth a talk that you expect him to be honest with you and briefly explaining how it all makes you feel. (I'm sure you don't worry about him thinking about every ex-girlfriend he's ever slept with!).
If you're feeling bad about your body - dump the baby with him and go and get some exercise. You'll feel better! And it will be positive for your relationship. More energy, you'll be one step towards shedding the baby weight PLUS he'll understand how much you do for him looking after your kid(s).
Good luck!

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 08:05:14

This wasn't a mistake.

This man is a nasty sexist pig.

You have been laughed at.

That's what they were doing when they were joking about him buying a sexual service while he was on a break with his pregnant wife.

This is who your husband is.

You're going to have to do a lot silent suffering if you don't find men who hate women attractive.

OpheliaPayneAgain Sat 01-Dec-12 08:19:39

Can't say it would bother me one iota.

InNeedOfBrandy Sat 01-Dec-12 08:22:16

It wouldn't really bother me as long as I had had a male stripper at mine

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sat 01-Dec-12 08:28:16

Gosh AThing - way OTT. You know next to nothing about this man and you write him off as a sexist pig who 'hates women'!!

My caring, intelligent, respectful, kind, loving, once went to a strip club on a stag night. I told him he was a prick and he'd humiliated me. He's never done it again. Never. He is still caring, intelligent, respectful, kind and loving. I'm a feminist and he holds the same views as me.

OP - you are not being stupid. I'd be upset and disappointed and disgusted too. I would also feel duped and laughed at. Everything you are feeling is normal.

BUT I agree with twosquared, non-sexist, non-bastardy, caring men do make mistakes and they can be pressured on stag do's. No that doesn't make it ok or your insecurities any better, but there are men who have done this once in their lives and don't do it again.

Only you know your dh and the bones of him.

If he's a good bloke and a good husband, forgive him, tell him he's a dealbreaker going forward and move on.

OpheliaPayneAgain Sat 01-Dec-12 08:29:48

DH did send me a stripper on my hen night grin

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sat 01-Dec-12 08:30:23

My caring, intelligent, respectufl kind, loving husband that would be!

MikeLitorisHasChristmasLights Sat 01-Dec-12 08:32:28

Wow athing a bit harsh there.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sat 01-Dec-12 08:35:18

Sorry just to add - the reason I was so fucked off when my dh did this was exactly what you're saying...I felt stupid that he/they'd not told me. He'd told me all about the stag holiday and all the trips they went on, lovely dinners etc but omitted to tell me about the lapdancing club. So I felt so stupid for buying that and felt laughed at. He wasn't laughing at me though, he just didn't tell me in case I was upset or angry! Twat!

Shesparkles Sat 01-Dec-12 08:43:23

Im another one who wouldn't be bothered IF it was a 1 off, on his stag do, and there hadn't been a repeat.
However, we're both in our 40s and have been married for what feels like a million years. He went on a lads' weekend abroad last summer and the one before, and whilst I'm fairly confident that all that went on was drinking vast amounts of beer followed by lying in the sun to recover (his tan was topped up a fair bit in 4 days!) I take the attitude that what goes on tour stays on tour.

Saying all that about my own circumstances, I do understand that at 7 months pregnant OP was in a more vulnerable and sensitive position when she found out what she did. From what your dh has said, please try to not read any more into it than there is, that's only going to hurt you and your marriage. See it for what it was, a drunken 1 off on his stag night.

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 08:50:28

This guy and his friend spend their time sending each other pictures of semi-naked women to leer at and comment on.

And he's not remotely sorry about the lap dance. He just wants his wife to shut about it.

Immature, sexist gobshites the pair of them.

Who could respect a loser like that?


stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 08:51:24

Believe me, I know exactly how you feel! My DP's lapdance on his stag do paled in comparison to later events that night. I'm not saying you should 'suck it up' but pointing out that some men get caught up in the whole 'stag do mentality'. It isn't right, it certainly isn't pleasant; but it happens. Don't be put off by him being dismissive - you have every right to be upset. Tell him in no uncertain terms how you feel and do not back down until he is genuinely sorry. Then work on it together, lots of talking about how it makes you feel. Lots of honesty. Lots of cuddles and affection. Hopefully in time you'll feel better. (We're four months on now and its much much easier than it was. Hoping to actually marry at some point. There won't be a stag do, obviously --although I may have another hen and be the one to behave badly this time--) Good luck OP. You have my sympathies.

OpheliaPayneAgain Sat 01-Dec-12 08:52:55

My perception, re-reading the Op is about personal insecurities, not about the lap dance. I look at my stretch marks and wobbly belly

I'm afraid OP, much like the rest of us, your jelly belly and stretch marks are a fact of life - you may not like them much, do any of us? but you can't make every fit young girl cover up or you could never to to the beach again, turn the TV on, and go for a blanket ban on crop tops in the high street.

Op, it's you tormenting yourself - I doubt your DH even remembers the stag do, much less dwells on it.

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 08:54:22

Has this liar ever even claimed that buying this woman's sexual services was a mistake?

I know all the apologists are saying it was, but he has just been laughing about it and saying he had every right as it was his stag do.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sat 01-Dec-12 08:59:51

Stuffit - was this on top of the other thing you posted about?! (don't want to go into details on this thread in case you don't want it bringing up - hope all is ok with you)

AThing - honestly you are sounding frothy now. I know you will think me an apologist but it really is possible for men to visit a strip bar and NOT to hate women or be a 'loser'. In fact I take huge offence at that, on my husband's behalf. He respects women and is a wonderful husband and father.

You are also twisting the lying and the 'laughing about it' as I think you know.

Hooya Sat 01-Dec-12 09:02:18

Hi Hitchy, congrats on the birth of your son and sorry this has left you feeling so bad!

My DP of many, many years enjoys the occasional night involving a visit to a strip club, and I can honestly say I have no problem with it at all, for the following reasons:

1. I personally have no issue with the idea of women selling their sex appeal for money, and I accept that many men enjoy that
2. I have total trust that he won't cross any of the boundaries we have agreed (he won't kiss anyone etc)
3. I know and am totally ok with the fact that these women have better / younger bodies than I do, but I am certain the whole package my DP gets with me is more appealing that a lap dancer, in the same way that a hot guy I see at work doesn't give me the love and support etc my DP does

However, if any of the above were not true then it would be different and I'd want to talk to him about why I was uncomfortable with it. I would also to proud's point be annoyed if he lied about it as that would be unecessary.

I've spoken with a lot of men about this as I'm aware I'm in the minority, and I'm surprised when they hide this sort of activity from their partners. The bottom line is, hetero men generally enjoy being around hot naked women, and can enjoy a fun night out even more if they are a feature. I'm not saying you should be a martyr to this, just should ask yourself why it bothers you before you confront it.

stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 09:21:07

proudnscary yes, the 'lads' bought him a lapdance. Don't know if I mentioned it on my thread because at time it was least of my worries. No, I don't mind you bringing it up. I just hope that my experiences can provide some context for OP. Of just how bad things can get when a partner buys into the stag do cliches. As you've found, even the normally most sane and loving men can be swept away by peer pressure to be 'one of the lads'. Unfortunately in my case my very stupid and very weak partner took the old adage about final flings etc to the nth degree! The only small scrap of consolation I have to cling to is that he learned a very valuable lesson; the hard way and I now have a more thoughtful and loving partner who is thankfull we are still together and much more appreciative of me and our relationship. In short, he has grown up grin

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sat 01-Dec-12 09:24:41

I'm really glad to hear that stuffit x

puds11 Sat 01-Dec-12 09:31:49

I do agree with the stag do mentality, i know when i go out and don't want to drink, my friends sometimes try to pressure me into it. The only difference is i don't give in. I am very stubborn and strong minded though, and know that other people would cave a lot more easily.

Hi friends may have been giving it the whole 'but its your stag night' mutter, but the fact remains that he should have told you, and him not telling implies he knew he was doing wrong.

As for comparing yourself to this dancer, just stop. You are beautiful, you made a baby, and there is a lot more to a women than her body. I don't think many men would actually want to be with a dancer, its more just the juvenile excitement of having the dance.

stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 09:41:23

Sorry to hijack OP, Proud I actually named you on a 'favourite MNetters' thread last week. Don't know if you saw it but just wanted to thank you for your support at what was a horrendous time! OP, you can get past this. A night of madness that seemingly many men get caught up in. However, a word of caution; there needs to be genuine contrition and regard for your feelings. The ongoing swapping of texts with friend of 'hot' women etc is deeply disrespectful and a separate (worrying) issue.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sat 01-Dec-12 09:45:28

No I didn't see that, Stuffit - that's so sweet and I'm delighted to have been one of the posters to help you through a bloody awful time.

I agree about the swapping of texts - I admit I didn't see that earlier and it makes me understand (a bit) why AThing was so harsh.

LadyWidmerpool Sat 01-Dec-12 09:58:47

OP your husband ought to be willing to discuss things with you and it's not on for him to get annoyed when you raise this. Every relationship is different with different expectations and that's fine but both partners need to be on the same page about what is acceptable. And you can't be if you can't discuss things openly. Try to keep calm. Also with regard to your feelings about your body - remember what a miraculous thing it has done in carrying your baby and giving birth (in whatever way.) You might never look the same again but every stretch mark is a badge of honour. Your husband ought to feel the same. Congratulations on your baby.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 10:09:08

Thank you all so much, I didn't expect quite the response!!

I think thru reading everything you've all said I think it's the hurt of him not telling me, as I say we've always been very honest, on his work Christmas parties in the past when girls have come onto him he told me straight away and told me how he had dismissed them and reassures me how much he loved me which although peeved at girls cos they knew he had a gf, I respected this cos he told me! Him not telling me just makes me think there's more to it or that he was really enjoying it and doesnt want to admit that. He said his reasons for not telling me was that in the following weeks we were getting married and he isn't want me upset in the lead up to this, which I can see his reasons for, and then I guess when would have been right to tell me after that?!? I dunno I guess some responses will be that be knows he did wrong otherwise there wouldn't have been a problem telling me, or as I discussed before would I have been as bothered if he had of just been honest at the time?

He is a really loving caring husband and I really want to get past this, I think it's just that I've seen this other side to him which I really didn't think existed, but then I think maybe I have been naive and guess the pictures they're sending is just a boy thing to do?! I'm probably in the wrong anyway for looking at his phone in the first place?!

I think I'm gonna have to have a chat with him and hope he doesn't dismiss the conversation, if I just tell him what's hurt me and take it from there. We have a beautiful son now and I don't want to ruin any time with him in his first few weeks so really want to get past this sooner rather than later. I hope he'll be honest and tell me things straight, even if he was to say yeah she was hot and it was exciting for him, but......(and follow it with is reasons why he's not still thinking about it, or wanting to go back and that he's happy with plain old wobbly bellied me!).

We'll see how that one goes!! Thanks again everyone xxx

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 10:20:40

Just to add about the texts as I was busy writing while other comments were going up, they've of famous people, usually pics of daily mail or such like where their boobs are hanging out etc! Comments have been fairly boyish to some degree, but dare I say it as I know there will be a response, but he has said things like 'yeah mate I've got that in the spank bank', ugh that wasn't nice to write or read at the time! :-( we've always had a good sexual relationship, especially when TTC (!!!), that worried me that I'm not satisfying him and that when he has resorted to this he's not even thinking of me!? I should just stop checking his phone, what the eyes don't see the heart don't grieve about!?

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 10:25:25

" on his work Christmas parties in the past when girls have come onto him he told me straight away and told me how he had dismissed them and reassures me how much he loved me which although peeved at girls cos they knew he had a gf, I respected this cos he told me!"


He really sounds like a creep.

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 10:28:53

He sounds very unappealing.

When you say "boyish" do you mean objectionable sexist behaviour normally displayed by total losers?

stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 10:38:40

You have been together over eleven years, married for over three and have a lovely baby. Before reading those texts were you happy? Is he a good husband and father? Is he loving and attentive? If the answers to my questions are 'yes' then take on board the advice the majority of posters have given. AThing, whilst we are all entitled to our opinion, I really don't see how repeatedly calling the OP's husband a 'creep' and a 'loser' etc is helpful. Do you have any advice for her regarding how she feels about her current situation?

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 10:45:16

My advice is that now that the lapdance has tipped her off to the kind of man she married, she should wake up and smell the misogynist and not go back to sleep pretending that this is a decent man.

stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 10:49:45

Fair enough.

SackGirl Sat 01-Dec-12 10:56:59

I don't think you are over-reacting, or naive - I think it's pure filth men thinking they can be in a loving relationship and then disrespect their partner like that. A lot of men use the excuse 'everyone does it' which seems to them to be a reason/justification to hurt their partner, disrespect them and basically treat them as doormats.
A lot of women say 'I trust my partner so it's okay' ... Which I have never understood - They are basically implying that if you trust your partner then you would let them get off to other women because afterall 'boys will be boys' but I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. What about self respect? I don't want to be with someone who cares that little about my feelings. Whether you trust them or not isn't the issue. The issue is them being pigs!!
It seems like today's society enforces the fact that men NEED to do this for their sanity, when really they are just being greedy arses.
Tell him NOT all men do it (and anyone that thinks all men are like that need a reality check and maybe a new partner) A lot of men do of course, but there are some decent real men out there.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 10:58:25

Stuffit, yeah the answers to the questions would be yes. I think it is useful having Athings opinion too tho actually because in my mind in response to the comments I'm thinking, no he's not like that, of all my friends partners hes always been the most kind, thoughtful and caring one, one of my best friends long term boyfriend left her in town once and my hubby insisted rather than her get a cab on her own that we drive her home with added an hour to our journey but he said if the situation was reversed and I was in town on my own he would want to make sure I got home safe, her bf was just miserable and didn't want to hang around and wait another hour or so, selfish bugger that he is!!

I can scratch some of the boyish comments off as I can see then for what they are, harmless banter between boys! The spank bank comment hurt the most, wish I'd never bloody looked at his phone!!!

SackGirl Sat 01-Dec-12 10:58:59

and Athing... i personally agree with you - Who do these pigs think they are? A woman who has beared his child for 9 months, then gone through labour for the new life that they will both enjoy and he's oggling women in pictures - Get a grip and grow up he's a married man not a 14 year old boy

dequoisagitil Sat 01-Dec-12 10:59:16

I don't think it's particularly wrong to look through your dh's phone - I think it's normal to be able to use each other's phones & email etc. Don't get caught up in the 'wrongness' of what you did.

I do think you've been obsessing about this lap-dance and perhaps once things have settled down hormonally, you'll feel less worried about it.

That said, I do not like your dh's dismissive response and I really hate the picture swapping - it's ugly, sexist behaviour. Is he a man or a teenager?

SackGirl Sat 01-Dec-12 11:01:09

I'm not saying its enough to break up over Hitchy - but I wouldnt lay down and say 'ok I accept it' if he is that nice, he will respect that you don't want him to do it, it's not a neccessity and so he can stop it, if it doesn't bring anything important to his life and brings upset to you why would he continue to do it if he is so lovely?

Kaluki Sat 01-Dec-12 11:11:53

aThing - I think you are projecting a bit here and not actually helping the OP.
OP I think this is more about your own insecurities than about your DHs stag night. It's understandable to feel like you don't measure up to these images of women on his phone after having given birth just 6 weeks ago but your body has given your DH a beautiful baby and none of those other women could even come close to that. The pictures are superficial images and so is the memory of the stag night. It's not real life.
Don't let this cloud your relationship, if your DH is a good husband in every other way and you believe he loves you (you know him we dont after all!) then you should let this go and stop comparing yourself to these other women.

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 11:16:22

"harmless banter between boys!"

He's a married man with a child, not a boy.

But if you think his sexism is harmless, enjoy your life.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 11:18:19

Hmm maybe I should say something about the picture swapping, if just assumed its a guy thing to do and tried not to let that part get to me, I've just taken it as immature boy behaviour (he's 31 tho now!!) but I don't like it either.

It's probably all my hormones and being so tired, babs is only 6 weeks old and I did have a rough time afterwards (blood transfusion and kept in for a week to recover!) so I'm still probably just on a low from that! sad

dequoisagitil Sat 01-Dec-12 11:22:59

I was trying to remember what the picture swapping reminds me of, and it's Beavis & Butthead-type stuff. Hurrrr-hurrrr-hurrr. hmm

At 31, he ought to know better than that.

stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 11:26:59

Just to be clear. My DP had a lapdance and was unfaithful on his stag do. Hence 'DP' as opposed to 'DH'. A serious breach of trust, a deal-breaker for many. We chose to stay together and treat it as the god-awful mistake it was. However, he does not trade pictures, comments or any sexist and misogynistic behaviour of any kind with friends. He never ever comments upon women's physicality other than mine. He makes me feel loved, secure and treasured. Your life OP, you know what you are and are not comfortable with. Make your views known, make your decisions and stick by them. Your husband needs to live up to your expectations and I hope that he does. I reiterate my best wishes to you.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 11:28:45

Omg, it's true they are like beavis and butthead!!!
Not good! Lol!

AThingInYourLife Sat 01-Dec-12 11:30:45

If you do say something about the picture swapping, don't go with

"Oh, I'm so insecure, it makes me feel terrible about my body."


"Do you know what is really unsexy? A 31 year old man with a "spank bank" he fills up with his friend's help."

badinage Sat 01-Dec-12 11:44:09

Let's focus on the facts here and not what other men have done and said and what other posters are prepared to put up with in men.

He lied. You 'jokingly' asked him not to go to strip clubs on his stag and he said he wasn't into that sort of thing.

When forced to admit it, he came out with the usual bollocks about 'having' to have a private dance because he was the stag, pointing out that his mate was worse and had two.

The texts to his mate don't back up this story about an unwilling stag.

Which is hardly surprising because like every story you read on here about men's bad behaviour, according to them it was always someone else's fault; their mates, other women overstepping their boundaries, their partners. And their partners fall for these stories about pressurising mates, wanton women on the loose and worse still, look inwards and wonder if their appearance is to blame.

His response has not been to apologise for it, but to claim amnesia about the evening and then to ridicule his wife for being 'silly'.

Meanwhile he is swapping pictures of women to wank over.

This is the real him OP. Not this image you have of him as a chivalrous hero who respects women.

If you join in with this 'boys will be boys' crap without stopping to question it, or why your husband lies to you and then ridicules you for being upset about it, more fool you.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 12:02:22

Thanks stuffit, much appreciated x

stuffitunderthebed Sat 01-Dec-12 12:06:36

You're welcome. Sorry if I made your thread 'all about me', was just trying to provide some context and hoped my experiences could help you in some way. If only to make you think.

perceptionreality Sat 01-Dec-12 12:11:27

'they keep sending half naked pictures of celebs to each other talking about how hot they are etc.'

Seriously, how old is he? 15??

You need to tell him how hurt you are about the lap dance and tell him as far as you are concerned it crosses a lie in your marriage and he's not to do it again if he wants your marriage to work out. You are feeling vulnerable, there is not a woman who doesn't after the arrival of a baby. He needs to respect you and make you feel respected and valued and at the moment he isn't doing that.

Hitchy83 Sat 01-Dec-12 13:14:40

Athing that made me laugh re the spank bank, really puts it in perspective!!

DoIlooklikeapeopleperson Sat 01-Dec-12 13:24:02

I'm sorry, I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but from what you've said I wouldn't be married to him. He sounds like a sleazy creep.


Hitchy83 Mon 03-Dec-12 09:27:14

Just wanted to update you all, I had a chat with my hubby on Saturday night and told him how I'd been feeling re my body, the lap dance and his picture messages to his mate. Think it had stemed a lot from my insecurities about my body image now and how the idea of a lap dancer and these pictures of celebrities had been making me compare myself to them in my husbands eyes. He was really surprised I felt the way I did, he reminded me its only been 6 weeks and that I had to goe myself time to adjust. He told me how much he loved me and how proud he was of our beautiful baby boy and that no one could compare to me in this way. He did say te picture messages were just boy ish fun and that they didn't mean anything, as did the lapdance. He didn't go into any details which I think may have been for the best, but he reasured me nothing happened, it was a one off, he'd never do it again and he doesn't think about it since. He was really sincere and was genuinely upset that I was getting myself worked up about it all. He made me feel so much better, know how much I love him and that this has just been a hormonal hiccup (obv not helped by some of his actions but nevertheless!).

Thanks again for all your comments, think talking to hubby was best thing I could of done to get it all in the open rather than me suffering in silence!

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Dec-12 10:04:27

Well done on having that chat.

Did you challenge him about his views of women and sex? his lack of respect, the porn pics etc?

Remember that its so easy for them to say some pretty words, cry a few tears and then all can go back to normal.

Remember that actions speak louder than words - are these matching up to what he has told you?

dequoisagitil Mon 03-Dec-12 10:17:24

Boyish fun is leching over & judging women's bodies like commodities, is it?

Hitchy83 Mon 03-Dec-12 10:33:11

To be fair to him I know the lap dance was a one off, it's not somewhere hes likely to go again, especially knowing how much it's hurt me (yes he should of known before that tho!). He may be oogling images of women but who am I to say I never look at those pictures of David beckham in his underwear adverts for h&m! He's not your average bloke, he doesn't drink so no coming home from the pub drunk! His idea of a great time with his mate is them going fishing all day! So the worst I have is having to wash smelly fishy clothing! I think his stag do was him trying to do the bloke things that were expected of him, in reality he's never been like this and never probably will again! He's a good un really, just a bit misguided on his stag do!! (Lol next thing ill be saying he had his eyes closed the whole time during the lap dance!)

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Mon 03-Dec-12 11:10:13

Hitchy, wouldn't you rather be married to a man than a boy ?

Charbon Mon 03-Dec-12 13:05:21

God these threads are a depressing read......cognitive dissonance right before your eyes.

All the time there are women who believe that pretty words said to their face are more truthful than what's said out of their hearing, the men uttering them will continue to walk all over them and treat them like idiots who are only fit to wash their smelly clothes - or titillate them for money.

Kaluki Mon 03-Dec-12 19:00:36

This thread is depressing because everyone jumps on the OP telling her they know her DH better than she does.
Men make mistakes so do women. One lap dance shouldn't mean divorce!
How many threads are there on MN where we all say which male celebs we fancy (I've been known to have a good ogle look at Brad Pitts six pack from his Fight Club days on a thread on here)
No matter what the OP says now her DH has been written off as a misogynist sexist pig who objectifies women rather than a man who made one error of judgement and has been a bit thoughtless looking at pictures while his wife is feeling insecure about her body.
OP I'm glad you spoke to him and sorted it out smile

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Dec-12 19:30:36


OP's DH bought sexual services which is very different from ogling a male celeb hmm men (and women)who think its ok to treat women as commodities to be bought have warped views of sex and women.

Hitchy83 Mon 03-Dec-12 22:39:28

Thanks kaluki, DH knows he's done wrong but has in my mind now reassured me how it was regarded as a bit of a laugh and nothing else. He's not a sexist pig, he is a loving husband and now father to our son. What he did upset me, including the picture messages but at the end of the day our relationship is really strong as is our sexual relationship, even following the birth of our son and my insecurities about my new found belly and accompanying stretch marks! As you say sometimes the good uns make mistakes, but only I know the sincerity of his apology and his past history which I can take into consideration. I was never going to write him off for it, just wanted some advice how to deal with it and raise the issue with him, and also checking other women's opinions of the situation. Everyone sees things differently depending on your own experiences, so it's been useful to see from every angle!

JudyPee Tue 04-Dec-12 01:28:39

"Your husband and his mate think they are entitled to pay for sexual services on a night out."

Go on, be a bit more dramatic why dont you. What utter bs.

OP: Your silly arse of a hubby should have been straight with you and the text exchange sounds very teenage. But a lap dance in an of itself? I suggest getting over it but making it very clear to DH why you've a hard time with it.

Plenty of blokes do these things it does t make them misogynistic wankers overnight.

izzyizin Tue 04-Dec-12 01:49:58

You're right, JudyP. It takes considerable practice for blokes like the OP's dh to become msogynistic wankers but they all begin their training by being tossers for a night.

Charbon Tue 04-Dec-12 02:04:08

Izzy it seems this 'new' poster has been spouting all kinds of bile of the handmaiden/misogynist variety on the Relationships board tonight, although s/he was moved to post on an ancient thread in Style and Beauty entitled "Is it Acceptable to Go Knickerless?" and was particularly keen to hear from the OP who last contributed to the thread in February, whether her husband had enjoyed the commando experience.......

izzyizin Tue 04-Dec-12 02:38:41

Cheers for the heads up, Charbon - after rising to the bait adding my earlier contribution to this thread I realised the 'new' poster on the block hails from Stepford had been round it a few times tonight.

<takes self off to check out commando dressing tips on S&M S&B>

stuffitunderthebed Tue 04-Dec-12 06:56:14

I posted loads on this. Heartfelt advice too. Feel stupid now sad

Hitchy83 Tue 04-Dec-12 07:40:06

Not me StuffIt, think they're talking about someone else who responded!

Your advice was much appreciated and one of the most sensible responses (ie not saying I should divorce my husband for being a sexist pig!), so thank you x

Hitchy83 Tue 04-Dec-12 07:53:32

But if they are referring to judypee, which appears they are, I actually thought her advice made sense (if she had meant doesn't rather than does in her last sentence!)

Fairenuff Tue 04-Dec-12 08:15:00

The major problem I would have with this (apart from the attitude to women in general of course) is that your DH didn't tell you about it because he knew you would be upset. But he did it anyway. That says volumes about how he feels about you. Sorry OP.

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 10:24:56

In your OP you referred to the lapdancer as gyrating in their lingerie.

It is more likely (99.999999%) that she was in fact totally naked and gyrating her vagina in his face.

Kaluki Tue 04-Dec-12 11:21:44

I thought JudyPee made sense too.
I also thought it was bad form to chase people from thread to thread because you don't agree with their views as is troll hunting.
Madaboutchoc - The paying for the lap dance was ONE mistake which he clearly regrets. I was comparing the threads on here to his text messages to his friend, which again isn't a hanging offence if he is otherwise a good husband.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 04-Dec-12 11:33:30

<bangs wall>

So swopping sexist texts in the name of "boyish fun" does not suggest he is NOT sexist or respectful? hmm

Hitchy - of course you would see Judypee's post that way. Much easier than having to face up to the reality of your DH as someone who is immature with disrespectful views of women.

Daddy73 Tue 04-Dec-12 11:36:22

OMG can everyone just calm down. Some of the replys I'm seeing are just outrageous. Your man is not laughing at you or viewing women as sexual objects. Lets look at the facts, this 3min lapdance was 3yrs ago on his own stag-do, hardly the end of the world, if you find out your fella is going every week and spending the family savings then its time to worry. Ofcourse I'm not suggesting that you lighten up or be overjoyed at what you think is a betrayal of trust I just think that in the greater scheme of things there are far more important things to be concerned with and believe me this is NOT one of them.

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 11:42:01

What is more important in a marriage than to be viewed as an equal and with respect, daddy73 ?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 11:51:27

In your opinion, daddy73.

Kaluki Tue 04-Dec-12 11:52:22

All I am saying is that swapping texts with a friend isn't cause for divorce nor is a ONE OFF mistake on a stag night.
You can't write off the OPs whole marriage based on this.
She has said herself that they have a good relationship and he is a good man (albeit one who can be an idiot at times) but obviously you know him better than his own wife and have decreed that the OP is being mistreated by a sexist disrespectful pig and should leave him now.
Just get a bit of perspective and stop projecting.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 11:54:24

The same could be said the other way, kaluki

I refuse to allow liberal, handmaidenly, sex industry-positive opinions projected onto my life.

Daddy73 Tue 04-Dec-12 12:02:53

Think I'm losing this battle. He had 1 lapdance, 3yrs ago, on his own stag-do. I just don't see the benefit of getting worked up about it now. It's done, he apologised. Time to move on.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 04-Dec-12 12:26:22

Isn't it strange that 1st time posters pop up on these threads with alarming regularity? wink And always to defend scummy men who visit strip clubs then lie to their wives about it.

Kaluki Tue 04-Dec-12 12:28:21

AF - Nobody is trying to project them onto YOUR life.
Can't you just accept that others have a different opinion to you?
Every case is different and every marriage is different and in the OPs situation her DH seems to be a good man who did a stupid thing. That is miles away from a regular prostitute using sexist pervert that you are all making him out to be.
I find it shocking that you are all trying to persuade the OP to leave a marriage based on something that happened 3 years ago which he obviously regrets.

Daddy73 Tue 04-Dec-12 12:35:30

Ouch. Well the title did kind of stand out, but it was the way the husband in question was getting ripped apart and portrayed that led me to putting across my own view. I can only apologise for not agreeing with the vast majority of you. God forbid that someone may have a different opinion and then have cheek to express it. I also didn't realise that as a new poster I should have first commented on some less controversial subjects. I will now look at differeent types of nappies and thier pros and cons. Thank you for putting me in my place!!!!

izzyizin Tue 04-Dec-12 12:39:22

I also thought it was bad form to chase people from thread to thread because you don't agreeo with their views as is troll hunting

Are you implying that I have 'chased' another contributor from thread to thread, Kaluki?

If so, I'd be obliged if you would ascertain the facts of the matter before making any further unfounded allegations against me.

Kaluki Tue 04-Dec-12 12:56:42

Did I mention your name Izzy??? I was referring to this by Charbon:

"it seems this 'new' poster has been spouting all kinds of bile of the handmaiden/misogynist variety on the Relationships board tonight"

Which indicates that JudyPee has been followed from thread to thread and because she is a 'new' poster who doesn't agree with the majority she therefore must be a hairy arsed trucker.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 04-Dec-12 12:59:42

Your name doesn't help your credibility daddy73, sock puppets aren't generally known for their originality.

Fortyshadesofgreen Tue 04-Dec-12 13:22:10

OP - I think you have the right balance in some of the advice - good luck !

If I can be so rude as to ask what is wrong with 'Daddy73' as a name ?

Its okay its not my first post - I have posted on other threads smile

BelaLugosisShed Tue 04-Dec-12 13:33:13

Assuming it's an almost 40 year old man, the name is just a bit off, a lot of sock puppets seem to have numbers in their names too, as does OP, or perhaps I'm just mildly paranoid and reading waaay too much into things.

Fortyshadesofgreen Tue 04-Dec-12 13:39:33

Thanks Bela - what is off about it ? Sorry i am lost.

And forgive me but what is a sock puppet ?

Daddy73 Tue 04-Dec-12 14:39:58

I see where you get the 40yr old thing from but I was born long after 1973, the numbers refer to the ages of my kids. Sorry to disappoint you, but it's a novelty to disappoint someone other than my wife. smile

Kaluki Tue 04-Dec-12 18:06:28

Bella you are sounding a bit paranoid.
Some normal posters have numbers in their names you know!
why on earth shouldn't a 40 year old man be alowed to have an opinion on this? confused

Fairenuff Tue 04-Dec-12 18:56:37

Kaluki The paying for the lap dance was ONE mistake which he clearly regrets

Only because he got caught. He did it even though he knew his wife would be upset and kept it as a secret for 3 years for the same reason.

Because of this, she now does not know whether or not to believe him when he says it was a one off. All his responses have been cliches - it was a stag do, I was pressured into it, it was just boyish silliness, it was only once, nothing else happened, etc. Nothing original there. It does not look good really.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 19:00:55

You see, I don't believe he regrets it and I agree with fairenuff. Not seen anything in what he has said that isn't all simply wishful thinking by the OP sad

Twattergy Tue 04-Dec-12 20:08:47

All men love looking at tits and bums it is a fact of life. Whether they are happy or unhappy in their relationships. Whether they have told their wife that they are or aren't in to it. They can't help it. And I have no problem with this whatsoever because to deny it would be self delusional. if you tell your partner that it upsets you and that you dont want them to do it, and they do it, then that is reason to be angry. Otherwise, its no reason to label them pervs, scum, etc, they are just men.

Charbon Tue 04-Dec-12 20:19:29

All he has said is that this was 'boyish fun' and that he wouldn't have a private dance again. I didn't see anything in the OP's posts about him being sorry he'd done it, though. On the contrary, he was 'really surprised' that his wife was getting so upset about it.

So at a stretch he might be sorry for the upset and grief it's caused - and a bit incredulous that it has, but that's it.

Any interpretation that he is sorry and regards his behaviour as a regrettable mistake is nothing but a projection by others.

Hitchy83 Tue 04-Dec-12 20:55:58

Whoah what have I started! And god how confused am I now! After an earlier comment re the lapdancer actually being naked I had to look on the strip club website.....which you guessed it says it is a fully nude lap dancing club, f&@£!! Yeah so got upset again an spoke to my hubby who said he really couldn't remember, aagghhh he begged me to let it go, told him how hard it was for me....again...I do really wanna get past it all! Need to stop reading this thread now, think I'm getting over it then reading someone else's comments and it throws me again. Half tempted to show him this thread to show him what I've been going through!

Twattergy Tue 04-Dec-12 21:01:28

Getting back to the OP's question of how to deal with this, how's about discussing with your husband how you now feel about your body post-baby. you will likely be reassured by what he says and realise that it is you and the baby that are the centre of his world, not a blurred memory from 3 years ago. Men can be complex enough to both have seen a lap dance and looked at porn and still be fully committed to life with their partner (contrary to the views of some onMN who shout 'divorce' as soon as another mentions finding porn on a partner's computer).

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 21:23:52

The reality of knowing he had someone else's vagina in his face, that he paid for, somehow makes it very real.
I put that in before because we are lead to believe that it's all just "oooo a bit of a dance, funny, just a bit pissed" when the reality is, it is very different to that. I had the misfortune to go to a strip club with a group of men a few years ago. The reality is, no-one is laughing, no-one is pissed out of their face, indeed I was surprised at how serious all the men were, concentrating heavily on the bodies (and that is just what they are seen as - no human element to it at all) on display.

I am not saying this to hurt you OP in any way. I am saying it because the reality is a bit different to what we are lead to believe. Which is why he didn't tell you in the first place.

Fairenuff Tue 04-Dec-12 21:33:30

If it was harmless fun, why didn't he tell you about it at the time OP?

And as to whether he can remember if she was naked or not, well hmm. I could maybe believe that if he'd had so many lap dances that he couldn't differentiate one from another but if it was just the one he would not be likely to forget a massive detail such as whether a woman danced naked or not is he?

He is stringing you along. No wonder he wants you to stop talking about it.

Darkesteyes Tue 04-Dec-12 21:40:09

Would it be ok if a female colleugue of his had stripped off at his office and thrust her vagina in his face?
Why is it seen as ok simply because money changes hands? Im not trying to upset anyone. Its just a question.

Greensleeves Tue 04-Dec-12 22:05:23

the post by Twattergy Tue 04-Dec-12 20:08:47 = most depressing piece of writing since Sylvia Plath. Really, really sad.

OP's H is a cunt.

maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 22:24:10

I could have written your post myself. I was very hurt when I found out my husband went to a lap dancing club a couple of nights before our wedding and lied about it by omission.
To your question about how to get over it, I decided I needed to tackle MY demons first. The insecurity which led to the snooping in the first place and the inability to face confrontation. I had counselling which taught me to believe in myself more and to have the confidence to confront situations that make me feel uncomfortable. In the end I learned to believe I am valuable and loveable so one lap dance became insignificant. Time is also a great healer, I'm 5 yrs on from you now.
Don't underestimate how having a baby will affect you emotionally either. Give yourself time to come to terms with it and if it still bothers you then you should raise it with him again.

You can't change the past but you can choose how to live with knowledge of it. Only you know where your boundaries are with your husband and whether this is something you feel you can live with.

Enjoy your new baby, focus your energies there. Your body has done a wonderful thing giving birth and the stretch marks are a sign of that miracle. Wear them as a badge of honour.

Hope you are able to resolve this, good luck.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 22:29:18

he let you remain under the illusion that said lapdancing lady was "in her lingerie" then ?

That's nice.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 22:32:07

That's the ticket, maxi

You fixed yourself so it didn't bother you any more. Your fault, your problem. Yep. Now it's allllllll gone away.

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 22:36:07

Maxi - that was some counsellor you went to shock

Tackling your inability to face confrontation by, erm, avoiding confrontation and burying your feelings. Epic.

SomersetONeil Tue 04-Dec-12 22:40:24

That's a lo-hot of effort you went to Maxi to fix something your DH did wrong and that upset you........

Maybe give us an idea of all the things he did to repent for his mistake - it might be useful for the OP to suggest some of them to her DH...

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 22:44:27

Christ almighty, maxi's H must be strutting around like a dog with 2 dicks. I feel a bit sick.

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 22:46:42

And I would wonder if it would stop him doing it again......after all Maxi is now so valuable and loveable that she can handle one more lapdance


maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 22:53:46

I realise this is a subject which prompts strong opinions, but I don't believe sneering at some else's choices about how they deal with painful, very real, issues is very kind. Or constructive for the OP.

It wasn't my fault, it hasn't gone away, but I did have problems. I honestly don't understand your issue with my wanting to get some help. Nor do I care for that matter. You come across as angry and unhelpful.

SomersetONeil Tue 04-Dec-12 22:57:23

If you give us some ideas of what your DH did to fix it, that would be really helpful for the OP, though.

maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 23:01:34

Also you all seem to have overlooked a key phrase in my post. "my demons first" not that I have to justify myself to you hounds but once I had dealt with some stuff from my past I could then talk to my husband much more openly and honestly and make sure we were both aware of where the boundaries lie.

Also my husband doesn't have two dicks, just one massive one.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 23:05:30

Nah, he is one massive one.

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 23:07:02

The reason your post was sneered at a little is that you came on and advised the OP to take the blame for her husband's bad behaviour by saying it it "your demons" that need to be sorted out by valuing yourself more so you can take the odd lapdance.

Instead, it is possibly more reasonable to say that actually your boundaries and upset were right in the first place. You may need counselling to believe that, but the difference is that the lapdance was wrong according to your boundaries, and you shouldn't teach yourself to suck it up and come to the conclusion that it's only a lapdance

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Tue 04-Dec-12 23:10:26

and yes, maxi, I do get a little tetchy when handmaidens come on here to try and make other women suck up horrible behaviour in their menfolk to make themselves feel better about doing it

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 23:15:27

"Also my husband doesn't have two dicks, just one massive one."
This implies you think you have a great catch there.

Truthfully? I doubt it. He obviously took no responsibility for what he did to you. And let you suck up all the blame for being a bit ooooo insecure. That shows one massive cock. But not in the way you mean.

Let's hope that one day you will not be choking on AF's words.

maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 23:17:11

Somerset: He was mortified that he'd upset me. He had no idea it would be such an issue, he was naieve enough to think that because 'that's what happens on stag do's' that it would somehow be ok. He admitted the girls didn't look that happy to be there and that made him uncomfortable. In terms of fixing it, understanding why I feel the way I do, not just saying he understands, but truly understanding and respecting my views has restored my faith.

I totally trust that he would not do it again. Because I'm worth it ;)

Greensleeves Tue 04-Dec-12 23:18:04

This is what freaks me out about the surrendered wife/submissive Christian helpmeet culture. People like this (your counsellor maxi IMO and plenty of others) take a woman who is already - quite legitimately - depressed and unhappy, tell her it's her own fault she's miserable for being a shit wife and having the temerity to expect to be treated with a modicum of respect.

As an example, an older woman I used to be very close to became horrendously depressed after she had a crap birth with her 4th child. Her dh was a minister and was very busy with his flock and his career in the church and had no time for his wife and child who were isolated - he asked a colleague to pop round and talk to her instead. This guy came round a few times and basically bollocked her for being selfish and told her to buck her ideas up and concentrate on her role as wife and mother and not allow her personal problems to make their home an unpleasant place for her dh to come home to (implication being that he would have more time for her if she wasn't such a buzzkill).

It's sad that you're happy with that maxi, but you can't post on MN and expect others to watch while you peddle the same abusive shit to another vulnerable woman.

OP's H is a cunt.

Charbon Tue 04-Dec-12 23:18:59

OP Hiding this thread is the equivalent of putting your head in the sand. I mentioned cognitive dissonance before. This is when despite what someone is saying and doing, another person 'sees' something very different. Normally what they want to believe, rather than the truth. So you know that the banter between him and his friend shows absolutely no guilt about the stag night or the photo-sharing and you know that he doesn't think his behaviour is a big deal and you know he's lied to you about all of this because you found out through your own detection work, but you think he's remorseful, sorry and will never do these things again.

I don't think he's even upset that you're feeling so bad about this. He sounds more upset that you keep going on about it and won't shut up. Lord knows what he's saying to his shit-stirring mate.

Tackling this by learning to live with this sort of behaviour and not mentioning it, never works. Because every time you notice some casual sexism or misogyny, you'll remember this. Every time you get the sense he's hiding something or has told a direct lie, you'll remember this.

mcmooncup Tue 04-Dec-12 23:21:31

Maxi - if he had no idea it would upset, why did he lie by omission?

If he thought it was nothing, he would have come home and said "OMG we went to a lap dancing club, it was a bit weird.....etc"

Really you believe this?

Charbon Tue 04-Dec-12 23:28:03

Yes this is another bit of dissonance. Men lie about their use of the sex industry for a very specific reason. Because they know that a partner will be angry or upset and they don't want the grief. Not one of them with-holds this information because it slipped their minds or they thought the information would be irrelevant. If the OP's husband had regretted doing this on his stag night, as soon as he heard from his wanker mate joking that he could revisit old haunts, he would have replied that he never wanted to go to one of those shitholes again.

But he didn't.

maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 23:39:15

I take your point mcmooncup. It was half a story. I wasn't trying to tell the op to suck it up and forget it, just make sure she's in a place herself where she can deal with it properly. She said she was feeling insecure after the birth of her son and I was trying to provide some practical advice on how she could start going about dealing with her complex emotions and changing dynamics that occur after having a child. Once she's on top form she'll be better placed to work with her husband to improve their relationship. Perhaps not communicated very clearly. My bad.

It's not always as black and white as 'you're wrong and I'm right'

Anyway, I'm sure you are all lovely in real life but my experience of many of you on here has been vile. No one on MN deserves to be called names or laughed/sneered at when posting on here. Some of the taunts have been quite cruel.

maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 23:43:04

He did lie by omission you're right, mostly through shame because he felt seedy. It is possible to get past an incident like that in a relationship. We have.

SomersetONeil Tue 04-Dec-12 23:43:16

Maxi - that's great if that's the case, and he's truly repentant.

But you can't miss the irony of you twisting and turning, getting counselling, really making an effort to get passed this and put it behind you when it - rightly - upset you so much. And the extent of his efforts wasn't any more than 'truly understanding' your views.... hmm

I don't mean to make you feel bad. But when you basically post advising other women to essentially suck it up and figure out a way of getting over it, then you have to expect other people who find that sort of behaviour unfathomable, to respond. With shock, quite honestly...

Maybe you've never looked at it like this before. Maybe you've never really considered the lengths you went to over this, compared with the practically nil effort he went to. Maybe you've never thought that this particular way of handling it is absolutely not what other people, well, women, would do.

All I can say is, your DH is a very, very lucky man to have someone go to such great lengths for him over his misdemeanour...

maxijazz Tue 04-Dec-12 23:53:01

Thanks for your honesty somerset. I appreciate it. Maybe I do bend over backwards too much. Maybe that's why I'm such an avid lurker on the 'people pleaser' threads...
You're right, he is very lucky to have me. He knows it and he tells me everyday smile

Charbon Wed 05-Dec-12 00:00:26

Re. your 'because I'm worth it' comment Maxi - has he changed his views about stag night clubs just because his actions upset you and he values his relationship too much to do that, or has he changed his views because he doesn't approve of these places now either?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 00:02:31

Those women in the lap dancing clubs... are they not worth it ? need to be really careful about colluding with misogyny.

maxijazz Wed 05-Dec-12 00:13:54

Oh for goodness sake I was making a JOKE AF no underlying judgement intended towards lap dancers. He thinks lap dancing clubs are dreadful and will put forward reasons for this if the subject ever comes up in conversation with anyone else. Ie the exploitation of women for the pleasure of men. He does not feel comfortable with that. He experienced it first hand where he could see the women were not enjoying themselves and he felt ashamed. I believe he truely understands why him going upset me.

SomersetONeil Wed 05-Dec-12 00:49:57

To be fair AF, Maxi has a problem with the places and always has. Not overly fair to beat her with that particular stick.

Wheresmypopcorn Wed 05-Dec-12 02:10:30

Hi there, I have been to a few strip bars and the girls there are far from perfect - in fact was quite pleased to see a variety of bodies on display.

Hitchy83 Wed 05-Dec-12 02:22:13

To be fair to those offering advice how to get last this, this is what I had originally requested, I never wanted to leave my husband. Yes he's been a prick and I hate him for what he has done to cause me so much upset, but for 11 years he's been my best friend and were so good together outside of this. We've just had our beautiful son and he has been an amazing father and I wouldn't want to ruin what we have for him ( our son) for one thoughtless (but yes very hurtful) mistake.

I'm so hurt by what he has done though, and when I think of her being naked it does make me feel like he has in some ways cheated on me despite his reassurances nothing happened its pretty darn close if he's had another woman's vagina seductively thrust around him! I honestly feel physically sick when I think about it, and for that reason I think it may be worth suggesting some marriage counselling to help us talk through our issues around this, in order that we can move on rather than me think about leaving him, surely to save what is our small little family is worth trying? I want him to accept his responsibility, change his ways re the text msgs and then for me to forgive and forget. Yes I can hear you all shouting now he should of never done these things in the first place, but I accept these are mistakes and I hope we can work on them together and move on for this, I think it would hurt me more to try and stop loving him and break our family up (again I can hear the 'its his fault' / your dilusionsl stance!).

How each person deals with such an issue will always relate individually to the reality of the relationship, should I really write off all that I know is good about my husband for him losing control on one night (his stag do where it could be believed he could be a bit 'naughty' shall I say, just like girls on a hen do can be- doesn't make them sexist towards men if they go on a 'kiss a guy for this, get a guys boxers for this type game'). Yes I've had an insight into a different side to him, but thankfully I know this isn't a regular thing, hes not out every weekend getting a lapdance to satisfy his needs, as I say we do have a good sexual relationship, so in this way I do see it as a one off (no matter how hurtful). He married me after all, wanted children with me, continues to do silly little romantic things for me, kisses me goodnight and tells me he loves me every day, and at the end of the day I want to grow old with him. However much he enjoyed the lapdance he was teased by something he knew he could never have, if I was to give him a lapdance, he'd basically be able to enjoy the show and eat the pudding afterwards (no punn intended!), not suggesting I would but surely I'm offering him so much more that why would he ever be tempted to go back, which he hasn't! He said himself the only reason men go is out of curiosity as to what goes on in strip clubs, now he's experienced he never has reason to go back.

I am in no way trying to make excuses for him, he's been a prick, but honestly I never wanted to leave him, just advice how to get past it of which I have had many so thank you.

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 03:34:09

OP the last thing you want to do is follow some of the heavy handed advice of the posters on here who have very extreme views on this matter, some of who are members of organisations such as Object.
A lap dance is just a live version of softcore erotica, It's pure fantasy and a bit of light entertainment, it's really not the big deal that people on here are making it out to be. Striptease has always been an integral part of the stag do and to some extents the hen do, well before the advent of lap dancing clubs, so you were right not to come down hard on your OH as he really wasn't doing anything that was out of the ordinary.

SomersetONeil Wed 05-Dec-12 03:46:16

Just for the record, OP - DadDancer has completely hypocritical views of lap dancing, which would be highly amusing if they weren't just cringeworthily embarrassing for him, instead...

Lap dancing is fine and dandy when it's for his entertainment - he doesn't care how happy or unhappy the women might be. The idea of a member of his own family doing it - well, that's another matter entirely.

I'm just saying this so that you don't take his completely blasé post, which totally ignores your feelings and discomfort over the matter, too much to heart.

maxijazz Wed 05-Dec-12 08:09:35

Well said OP.

The style of some people's posts on here borders on bullying, IME. However some advice/criticism is very insightful and supportive, and I hope you found what you needed.

AgathaF Wed 05-Dec-12 08:12:02

DadDancer - "he really wasn't doing anything that was out of the ordinary".

Lots of things have been considered 'ordinary' at some point, but with education/intelligence/humility/whatever and etc, we now understand them to not be so - racism, locking away people with mental health issues, women not being allowed to vote, not picking up your dog's shit in the street ..............

Beggars fucking belief!

SleighbellsRingInYourLife Wed 05-Dec-12 08:26:04

"A lap dance is just a live version of softcore erotica, It's pure fantasy and a bit of light entertainment"

It's not pure fantasy.

Pure fantasy doesn't require an actual human being to rub their vaginal secretions all over your trousers.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Dec-12 08:29:25

when I think of her being naked it does make me feel like he has in some ways cheated on me despite his reassurances nothing happened

It depends what you call 'nothing'.

As someone upthread said, how would you feel if a female colleague danced naked for him and no money exchanged hands? Would you still think he hadn't cheated?

Also, he told you men only go out of curiosity? You sure do buy some lines don't you. If that were the case these clubs would have gone out of business years ago.

Please do not try to 'compete' with lapdancers for his attention. That's not what this is about. People who have lapdances do not see those women as real humans - someone's mother, sister, daughter, wife. They see them as bodies for sale at a very affordable price for their own sexual pleasure.

He won't think of you as anything like them because you are real, you are his wife, you are a proper woman.

Trying to change a mindset like that is difficult and there are no guarantees that he will be able to do it. He will try to say the right things just to stop you going on about it so be wary of this in your counselling.

Remember, it's up to you to decide where your boundaries lie not him, or us or anyone else. If it makes you feel awful, it probably is awful.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Dec-12 08:31:44

BTW A lap dance is just a live version of softcore erotica, It's pure fantasy

This is a classic example of how men like your dh and his friends do not see those women as real, as I was just saying above.

Twattergy Wed 05-Dec-12 08:32:48

OP your most recent post shows clearly that you are in a relationship that is in good shape. other posters think that any man who sees a lap dance is a cunt. I profoundly disagree. The complexities of your relationship extend well beyond the politics of the sex industry. if you can tell your husband how the lap dance truly made you feel, then it is a chance for you both to deepen your understanding of each other and to find a shared way forward.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 09:44:12

" Wheresmypopcorn

Hi there, I have been to a few strip bars and the girls there are far from perfect - in fact was quite pleased to see a variety of bodies on display."
Oh well that's ok then. hmm

StuckInTheAttic Wed 05-Dec-12 09:54:52

Have NCd for this. I was in exactly the same position as you OP. When I was pregnant with our first child, my DH went out with an old 'friend' of ours who had recently separated from his wife. It was their first night out without partners and they decided to go to the local lapdancing club. I found out, and was absolutely furious about it. DH claimed they had only gone their for late night drinks as the pubs were shut. It took a while for things to get back to normal but, at the time, I stupidly believed him.

Nearly 10 years on, we were watching a programme about lapdancing, and I asked him about that night. He said our friend had two lapdances but he 'couldn't remember' if he had one. When questioned about his amazing memory that could remember the details of his friends visit but not his own, he admitted to having a lapdance, claiming that she just danced around a bit. hmm

I can't tell you how much damage this has caused to our relationship. Maybe I should have got over it and let it go, but all I can think about is that when I was carrying his child, he took the earliest opportunity he could to have a girl strip and gyrate in front of him. We nearly split up because of it - 10 years on. I am still so angry and resentful about it, despite us going to marriage counselling (counsellor was useless, all but saying 'boys will be boys').

I'm telling you all this for two reasons. First, so that you can see that your husband is probably lying about what happened at the club. He won't tell you because he knows you will be, quite rightly, furious about his less than husbandly behaviour. Second, if you don't get to the bottom of it, and really spell out your feelings about it, it will fester and come back to haunt you.

PretzelTime Wed 05-Dec-12 10:35:53

DadDancer has a very extreme view on the matter if he thinks a stripping woman is "pure fantasy" and not actually a real person.

Kaluki Wed 05-Dec-12 10:38:58

"Anyway, I'm sure you are all lovely in real life but my experience of many of you on here has been vile. No one on MN deserves to be called names or laughed/sneered at when posting on here. Some of the taunts have been quite cruel."
Well said Maxi
some of you are bullying the OP and instead of helping her you are trying to put ideas in her head which will make things worse. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is called a handmaiden (whatever that means) and insulted.
You are trying your hardest to cause more trouble in an already difficult situation. This is a family with a young baby and you are advising the OP to ditch an 11 year relationship over one mistake that happened 3 years ago! Shame on you!,

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 10:49:03

How on earth is telling someone its "just fantasy" reassuring?!

"Oh don't worry he was just fantasying about being with a woman thats not you, but as he cant actually have her it will just have to remain fantasy. Poor him".

Oh yes, Im sure that makes op feel much better. Yippie.

Hitchy83 Wed 05-Dec-12 11:02:26

Thanks kaluki, must admit things feel like they're spiralling out of control confused

helpyourself Wed 05-Dec-12 11:07:27

It sounds as I'd you're staying with him.
Tell his sleezy friend to fuck off at least

izzyizin Wed 05-Dec-12 12:17:42

The only thing that's 'spirallaling' on this thread is you turning like a corkscrew, Hitchy.

What's apparent is that your h and his best mate have been perving fixated for some considerable time on their experiences with lap dancers who, as you now realise, were stark bollock naked not dressed in Victorian bathing costumes when they performed private one-to-one dances in private booths for your h and his pals.

It occurs to me that those lap dancers must have been hot stuff to get 2 blokes obsessing over and extolling their gyrations virtues after 3 years hmm and this leads me to suspect your h's stag night was not the first or the last time he and his best friend have paid to be in close proximity to women's genitalia.

As you've observed, your problem is not that I don't trust him but I've often found him telling his best friend things he hasn't told me, nothing major but stuff I thought we would have talked about.

Some way back in your thread you were incllined to view this matter as a 'hormonal hiccup'. I suggest you get your h the necessaary hormone treatment to progress his development beyond adolescence otherwise you're likely to find he'll be able to navigate his way around the UK using lap dancing establishments as landmarks.

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 12:51:33


Still trying to twist that one around are we, as i said previously i was annoyed about the insulting manner in what was said, not the concept of a family member working in a LDC.
Also where did i say about not caring how happy or unhappy the women might be who work there?

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 12:54:29


Lots of things have been considered 'ordinary' at some point, but with education/intelligence/humility/whatever and etc, we now understand them to not be so - racism, locking away people with mental health issues, women not being allowed to vote, not picking up your dog's shit in the street ........ ........... being intolerant to people who enjoy lap dancing clubs..........

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 12:59:31


^It's not pure fantasy.

Pure fantasy doesn't require an actual human being to rub their vaginal secretions all over your trousers.^

Do you actually have personal experience of that? or was it something some bloke told you down the pub.

AgathaF Wed 05-Dec-12 13:06:24

Poor effort at twisting it around DadDancer - just for you here.

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 13:07:19

Fairenuff and PretzelTime

Of course the girls are real persons, its the dance part which is the fantasy. It's just another form of play acting.

izzyizin Wed 05-Dec-12 13:16:11

being intolerant to people who enjoy lap dancing clubs

What are you proposing, Dad? A preservation society on the lines of 'Save The Saddos'?

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 13:21:11

AgathaF oh no please not the objectification of women argument again. Which gets wheeled out every time this subject is raised. I have heard it all before and it's a totally flawed argument.

Next you will be sending me a link to the Lillith report..........

AgathaF Wed 05-Dec-12 13:39:41

DadDancer out of intrest, why not that argument? Isn't it valid (in your opinion)? I don't think I will ever understand men like you, or want to.

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 13:46:33


What are you proposing, Dad? A preservation society on the lines of 'Save The Saddos'?

But who defines what is sad?

Fortyshadesofgreen Wed 05-Dec-12 13:48:51

Hi AgathaF - am I correct in assuming then that from your point (I may have made a big leap or two - but thats why I am checking) that any man who goes and sees a female strip show hates women and that any woman who goes to a male strip show hates men ?

MummyBarrow Wed 05-Dec-12 13:53:42

I husband went to a lap dancing club last month whilst on a stag do and had a lap dance.

that doesnt make a sexist pig

It doesnt mean he hates women.

Some of the comments on this thread sum up everything I hate about Mumsnet.

OP you need to decide HOW YOU FEEL. What YOU want to do about it. Not us. Only you can decide.

if you want to talk to your husband about it. Sit him down calmly and tell him you want to talk about his. Not loudly and by stomping about. Calmly, tell him why you are upset and resolve it between you.

He needs to see why you are upset and given the chance to apologise.

You shouldnt sit in silence if you are upset and feeling you need to says more about your relationship than the fact he got the lap dance.

if you cant sit down and talk about this without him laughing / brushing it off / dismissing your feelings then you have bigger fish to fry than some seedy lap dancer.

My husband came home, told me about it, we moved on. He know it doesnt bother me. It was a one off in ten years of marriage whilst on a stag do. No he didnt want to, didnt enjoy etc. But it was part of what those guys did and he told me about it.

Talking about these things is the important bit.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 14:16:40

You're equating disgust at men who pay for sexual services to racism? Really?

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 14:17:38

Mummybarrow, do you not agree that paying for a woman to strip or lap dance for you is a sexist thing to do?

Fortyshadesofgreen Wed 05-Dec-12 14:21:57

FivesandNorks - who are you asking ? Sorry too fast moving for me.

AgathaF Wed 05-Dec-12 14:24:22

Fortyshades not necessarily, no. My response was in reply to this from DadDancer who was saying that this sort of activity is normal for men - "It's pure fantasy and a bit of light entertainment, it's really not the big deal that people on here are making it out to be. Striptease has always been an integral part of the stag do and to some extents the hen do, well before the advent of lap dancing clubs, so you were right not to come down hard on your OH as he really wasn't doing anything that was out of the ordinary."

Having said that, I do think that men who frequent lapdancing clubs are displaying a lack of respect towards women. I also wouldn't want to see a male stripper, much less have one grinding his bits around in front of me, and I am certainly no man hater.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 14:27:52

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Proudnscaryvirginmary Wed 05-Dec-12 14:31:34

Surely even fans of strip clubs accept they are all about the objectification of women DadDancer?

Or are you oggling their personalities, education and life experiences?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 14:34:19

what's a "seedy" lapdancer ?

is that in comparison with a "clean and tidy" lapdancer ?

or is that in comparison with the men that pay women that would never normally give the shit off their shoe to take their clothes off for them ?

in my mind, there is no question where the "seedy" part of this transaction lies

izzyizin Wed 05-Dec-12 14:42:38

The 'saddos' are those who buy into the fantasy that a gorgeous nubile young woman is sexually interested in them, Dad. You wouldn't be that stupid, would you?

BelaLugosisShed Wed 05-Dec-12 14:46:42

How could any woman have even an ounce of respect for a man who "didn't want" a lap dance, yet had one anyway, presumably to save face in front of a group of immature morons?
So spineless, it's sickening.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 14:53:36

I think some men do this ridiculous wanting to look well 'ard in front of the lads thing.

As a woman I find it confusing- who is the real man? The gorgeous gentleman you get at home or this laddish pig you wouldn't touch with a bargepole ?

Which one is the act?

I think thats why finding out about these things is so destroying as your not quite sure who that person truly is anymore. It truly shakes your trust to the core.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 15:07:20

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MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 15:18:14

Striptease has always been an integral part of the stag do and to some extents the hen do

Really? My DH didn't have any and neither did I. In fact most of my DH's friends go for things like paintballing, go karting, hiking or just a few beers and a curry.

As long as there are women of their own free will taking their clothes off for money / the pleasure of men, there'll be men willing to pay for it

Depends on how you define "free will" - the sex industry which includes LDCs is full of women from vulnerable backgrounds and if not trafficked or forced into it then are pretty likely to have been groomed/conditioned sad

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 15:23:28

Genuine question though- how would a woman working in a high street licensed strip club exactly be forced into it?

Im not talking illegal brothels etc but ones very much in the eye of the public?

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 15:26:38

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GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 15:27:15

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FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 15:30:50

Oh well if its a male tradition. Not sure whether te women involved think of it so fondly.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 15:31:53

But what do they matter, versus a real human being who is getting married the poor dear

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 15:44:00

Do some googling - actual statistics are hard to find because so much depends on the willingness of participants to take part, not easy when you know they are at risk.

There are several articles out there though including this one:

Also do some reading about the links between gangs and young vulnerable underage girls - they often end up in the sex industry.

Does it really matter exactly how many are trafficked/forced into it? Knowing that there are women being made to do these things against their free will should be enough to prevent you from supporting the industry or perhaps you do not care?

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 15:55:35

It's interesting that all these guys caught red handed "didn't enjoy it".....
If ALL the guys don't enjoy it I'm surprised these places are still open what with all those guys being forced to hand over their hard earned family money to see some weird vaginas.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 15:57:08

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FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 15:58:19

At the same time surely at least some of the women must enjoy it to keep them staffed!

Im not convinced I should feel sorry for all these strippers, some of them are just as bad keeping the industry alive.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 05-Dec-12 16:07:01

Even if you overlook the nasty side of these clubs or it was a freely chosen utopia full of bright eyed undergrads who simply like to show off their bodies for cash - the vast majority of women do not want the man they are going to marry / man they are married to, paying a woman to strip and dance for him, it's the utter lack of respect that's the bottom line - it's completely bizzare that an event celebrating your upcoming marriage would involve you and your friends watching semi or fully naked women dance provocatively.

I'm sure that most of the men who do this think of it as "live porn" for want of a better word, so why on earth would they want to be sexually aroused in the company of their friends?
What kind of man doesn't feel deeply uncomfortable handing over a £20 note so a young woman will expose herself and pretend to be interested in him?
If I was paying a man to rub himself all over me, I would feel like a sad, scummy pervert and I know that's how my husband views it too.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 16:11:36

I think its horrible too, but I do find it hard to empathise with the strippers. For those there by freewill (which must be a majority in licensed clubs very much in public view) why do the deserve any sympathy at all? If they didn't do the job the clubs would shut down.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 16:18:31

You keep saying "public view", FB

These clubs are not in "public view" as it appears the men that use them never admit to it until they get caught, they only do it once and the women who think their partners don't use them are deluding themselves anyway (so we keep getting told)

So, since there is so much secrecy around them, how can we be sure whether every single woman is a happy stripper sticking two fingers up at the menz

Until you can buy sexual services in Asda with your weekly leg of lamb, there is no "public view"

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 16:22:49

There is something a bit dodgy about this shared sexual experience with your mates thang. It brings a whole new level to the term "bromance" don't it ?

There's a school of thought that men grouping together to partake of sexual experiences is not-so-latent posturing, display and preening for the benefit of other men. Puts a whole new spin on the "macho" idea of the last bit of "fun" before you marry the ole ball'n'chain...

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 16:28:36

Atcually there is a strip club night run in a nightclub in our town. Its in a huge building on the high street. Not underground. There are posters plastered around it. Anyone over 18 can walk in if the pay. Its all above board and legal. Sadly.

Not all men hide Going in. some cba! I'm not sure what is worse actually. At least hiding it shows a margin of respect for their dp feelings in a twisted way.

Some of my friends partners were talking loudly about how they were going to visit it. None of my friends said a word! I would be appalled if dh had joined in.

However we once went to that nightclub for a friends bday and out of nowhere these half naked dancers started slithering around the poles to "dont you wish your girlfriend was hot like me?".

They didnt look vulnerable they looked pretty smug with all the attention. Why on earth would anyone feel sorry for them?!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 16:31:29

You do realise that they have to pretend to be enjoying it or they will get the sack, don't you ? Or is that too obvious a statement ?

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 16:34:22

How do you know? Where you there?

Because if you weren't how could possibly pass a fair analysis? Well you werent so I guess you will have to rely on what I saw with my eyes.

If they hated it so much then they could just get a normal job.

The point is, they willingly choose to be part of that industry so my sympathy is ZERO

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 16:36:35

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I thought the Leeds report had been discredited in many quarters - its findings have also disappeared.
Surely, it would be wise to do a report with ex-lap dancers those who don't have a vested interest in the status quo.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 16:43:17

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FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 16:44:04

" If they hated it so much then they could just get a normal job."
Oh come on!

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 16:44:25

FB - miserable lapdancers do not earn money so they have to look happy.

Statistics from those who have exited the industry are much more reliable I would have thought.

Also those who were not forced into it, are likely to have been conditioned - as a result of their vulnerable backgrounds or are feeding their drug habits (actually I am not sure which came first, the drugs or joining the industry as it seems there is a strong link between the two).

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 16:45:25

and you know, FB, there might be some strippers who get a punch in the face from their boyfriend and/or drugdealer if they don't plaster a smile on and look like they are enjoying it

they don't need any thoughts for them though, because they are smug at the wonderful situation they find themselves in, yeah ?

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 16:45:53

Whats your point Norks?

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 16:46:12

If you read the Guardian article I have linked, its pretty obvious that many do not feel they are able to find alternative ways of supporting themselves and it seems they really are struggling to earn enough sad and because of this, they are more likely to offer "extras" sad

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 16:46:31

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MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 16:50:05

Get - yep, from those supporting the industry and those who believe in the happy hooker myth. Sad isn't it?

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 16:50:23

Wow, you just love to twist peoples words Anyfucker.

I am clearly taking about women who willingly go into it.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 16:53:03

That you have a very naive and simplistic view of the world.

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 16:55:00

FB - how do you know they willingly went into the industry?

I wonder if you really would think its acceptable for you, your daughter, sister etc to do this kind of work? What would make them think its their best option?

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 16:56:21

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GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 16:58:28

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GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 16:58:58

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FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 16:59:27

Mad why are even asking that question?I would be devastated if my dds did it. Im very against the industry FULL STOP.

But NOT all women are. Some are going into eyes wide open. Im talking about hookers Im talking about women prepared to dance around naked in above ground strip club or half naked in a "normal" nightclub. They are helping keep these places open.

They are part of the problem. If they are willingly do it please tell me why I should feel sorry for them?

I can't find anything on the Leeds report: even the report itself has disappeared (?) only commentary such as this:

When I was young, I worked in a foreign country where we British girls 'chatted' to men. The East European girls danced for and slept with them. They were saving up money to go back home. Were they happy? They were happy to take the money, yes. Were they miserable? Yes. Did they like men? They loathed them.

Anyway, I don't think the big question is how happy are lapdancers - the question for me, is what effect does the normalisation of these places have on wider society.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 17:04:56

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Ah, seriously, I did try and find it!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 17:15:11

"i can’t speak for the porn industry so much, but as far as the strip club world i saw it happen constantly. strip club managers belittling/degrading their employees/dancers, pimp “boyfriends” forcing their dancer girlfriends to work and hand over their money, club bouncers letting customers get away with things that are against the rules (verbal abuse, unwanted touching, etc)… i could go on.

i used to think stripping was empowering because men would give me loads of cash just for being a hot girl. i felt as if i was exploiting men. these lonely men would come into the club and pay me just to keep them company, talk to them, pretend to like them, dance for them, whatever. but like i said in my previous comment, it didn’t take long for me to realize that there is nothing empowering about spreading open my vagina for a stranger for a dollar.

in my opinion, i am confident in saying that the majority of sex workers wouldn’t be doing sex work if it wasn’t for the money."

This from a real woman, who went into the industry willingly. When she was relatively new to it, she would have been one of those who extolled it's ? Not so much. This is just one example. I don't care about statistics, and how they can be manipulated to suit an agenda. The Leeds report used testimonials from women still heavily involved in pleasing men sexually for money, they have to say they are not harmed, that they have "job satisfaction)...I give you "well they would say that, wouldn't they"

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 17:16:09

FB I would say that people with your attitude towards sex workers as being somehow "other" is part of the problem.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 17:19:31

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But they would say that, wouldn't they? You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

It would be interesting to see them interviewed 5 and 10 years later.

Did they ask questions about dancers backgrounds, father boyfriend, relationships, abuse, rape, etc? (Sorry, I can't make the pdf big enough to read).

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 17:27:17

Oh, no, sorry but its completely the other way around.

We both oppose the sex industry thats what we have in common.

Yet thats were it ends. For you think anyone involved in the sex industry should be absolved of blame automatically if they possess a vagina.

That is not looking at the full picture. You cannot see things in black and white. Yes some women are blameless but Im talking about them. some aren't. They are part of the problem as are you by excusing them.

Its plain odd to me you have put these women under some golden glow of innocence rather than treat them uniquely as independent humans not based on their sex. Thats where I think you are part of the problem.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 17:27:42

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 17:30:43

Furthermore using your extract that woman did willingly go into, found out was quite shit -yet chooses to stay. Again why is she helping enable this industry? She can get out. Why should anyone feel sorry for her when she could quit?It sounds grim and soul destroying.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 17:30:55

I think its very telling that you are trying to wrangle it so you find some women somewhere to blame, anything other than suggest men may be the root of the problem. I'm sure there are lapdancers and prostitutes, the odd one, who look back at the end of their life and are glad and proud they did what they did. But I think that's not the case for the majority.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 17:32:21

Do you also wonder why women stay in abusive relationships where the door's not actually locked - they aren't prisoners

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 17:35:41

Were has anybody said men are blameless?

The industry is kept alive by supply and demand. The men (and some women) create the demand but the supply is keeping it alive. The viewers are a much larger part of the problem , the suppliers much smaller but that doesn't absolve the ones willingly supplying it. What is the point of trying to convince yourself and everyone that ONLY the viewers are to blame?

Though at least you admit some women are willingly it finally.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 17:37:28

Comparing a woman prepared to dance about in hot pants on saturday for money in a nightclub is HIGHLY offensive to compare them to an abused women trapped in a situation.

Really distasteful fives Im afraid.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 17:37:34

GetAll like I said, the findings of any study can be extolled or dismissed depending on the readers's viewpoint, which is why I generally don't keep putting them forward to support an argument of mine. My opinions speak for themselves, no matter what anyone else thinks of them.

Agree or disagree, but to repeatedly parrot "what about the Leeds study, what about theLleeds study" does little to strengthen your argument

it's ok though, I know that feeling is a mutual one

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 17:40:14

FB...I expect you tell women who are otherwise trapped in shit situations to "just get out" don't you ?

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 17:43:55

Well why on earth would you encourage them to stay? Of course you would help somebody to leave.

I wish somebody helped me when I needed it frankly.

GetAllTheThings Wed 05-Dec-12 17:45:48

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Hmm, well, as I said before what lapdancers think isn't as interesting to me as the ramifications of clubs on wider society. However, it is interesting why it is important to you that lapdancers love their jobs?

No, Getall, I wouldn't say any study of a profession is invalid if it only takes into account current opinions. (Although I think my idea of re-visiting them 10 years later would get a fuller picture!). However, I think calling lap dancing a profession is odd, and I would expect the same skewed answers that you might get from "professionals" in the porn and drugs industry.

One sociology study from one university does not a body of evidence make.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 17:48:32

FB, you are being wilfully obtuse now.

GetAll it's Any Fucker to you...did you mean to sound so rude ?

SomersetONeil Wed 05-Dec-12 17:58:33

"Also where did i say about not caring how happy or unhappy the women might be who work there?"

Well, do you care? How do you ascertain whether the woman dancing for you is happy? Or do you just assume they all are, and blithely go ahead? Being as you are, absolutely, unquestioningly entitled to your 'softcore' 'fantasy'.

GetAll - doesn't it not strike you as slightly incongruous that the experience of ex-sex workers is often quite markedly different from the experience of current sex workers? In a way that it is not for, say, teachers, or architects, or receptionists or shelf-stackers?

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 18:25:06

" FBworry

Comparing a woman prepared to dance aboutinhot pants on saturday for money in a nightclub is HIGHLY offensive to compare them to an abused women trapped in a situation."
I didn't compare them. I asked you a question about your attitude to women who are trapped in a situation and feel they have little or no choice.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 18:25:22

Just looking at life satisfaction as a measure of their true state of well-being is incredibly naive and is done only to serve a purpose of normalising lapdancing and minimising the risk that women are put under in the sex industry.

Income has a positive relationship with life satisfaction - so this could be a causal factor for higher results as opposed to a standard group of women (lapdancers earn well over the average wage) - and low income is the strongest factor influencing low life satisfaction.

Also taking a one-off life satisfaction measure is in no way an indication that the stripping is a causal factor of increased or high life satisfaction. You would have to measure longitudinally - have a before and after, and also after leaving stripping preferably, to attempt to measure any effect stripping has on life satisfaction.

As the actual authors of the Leeds study note; "The media coverage also tended to focus on other ‘good news’ elements of the findings, such as the dancer’s positive body image. Less attention was given to dancers’ experiences of customer harassment, including verbal abuse or touching.

Dancers told Dr Teela Sanders and Kate Hardy about unsafe working conditions, lack of insurance, inconsistency of income and fines or high fees in some clubs. The reports also tended to disguise the profound variations between the standards and management in different clubs."

But if you keep telling yourself that it's OK to pay for another human being to sexually service you, then I'm sure you will continue to believe it, despite the evidence,logic and total obviousness to the contrary.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 18:37:30

Im talking about the ones who do have a choice as I have said all along.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 18:43:41

Could you explain how a woman chooses to be a lapdancer, then we can avoid further cross wires?
I mean, the exact sort of things a woman might say in order to make the choice to go into lapdancing as a "career of choice".

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 18:52:22

I think there is an array of reasons. Not everyone will give the same answer.

however Look at anyfuckers post

" I used to think stripping was empowering because men would give me loads of cash just for being a hot girl. i felt as if i was exploiting men. these lonely men would come into the club and pay me just to keep them company, talk to them, pretend to like them, dance for them, whatever. but like i said in my previous comment, it didn’t take long for me to realize that there is nothing empowering about spreading open my vagina for a stranger for a dollar. "

That train of thought would make sense to me. Mainly reasons of empowering, feeling flattered initially, easy quick money but some cases insecurity.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 18:59:33

So would you say someone with low self esteem, insecurity and no power (i.e. they need empowering) is making a free choice to service men sexually?

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 19:03:55

FB - I don't get what you mean by choice. You and your DDs would not consider lapdancing as a way to make money - probably because you all have been educated, have had stable upbringings, been taught to respect yourselves etc. Women who go into lap dancing are often damaged as a result of having grown up in care/by dysfunctional families, were brought up to think their bodies were to be used by others etc.

Someone asked for links - a quick google has brought up the following:

These are mainly observations and/or refer to other research papers.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Dec-12 19:05:02

Of course the girls are real persons, its the dance part which is the fantasy

What? confused

The dance is not fantasy, it's right there in front of you. Reality. The people are real, the dances are real, the drinks are real, the building is real. There is no fantasy about it.

A fantasy is something that you imagine in your head.


FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 19:07:59

Yes lots of insecure women seek validation through men sexually through their own free will. Its a bad idea but nobody is forcing them.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 19:13:04


Actually I have not had a good upbringing. Quite a damaging one.

But no I wouldn't go into lap dancing. I doubt they have me anyway! smile
Seriously though Its not for me and I would be heartbroken if dds went into it.

I will read links in a bit

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 19:18:28

It's not for me either, FB. But I can have some compassion for women who feel they have little else to offer. You could try that.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 19:21:18

You can have compassion for the deserving ones.

How about the ones who know they are pleasuring someone elses dh but dont give a crap anyfucker? Maybe even get a small kick out of it.

Dont tell me women like this dont exsist.

If you do I can introduce you to a few...

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 19:26:01

You sound very angry FB - remember that its the men who are driving this demand and paying for these services. They are the ones who deserve your anger.

The women are not to blame.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Dec-12 19:31:56

The bottom line FB is that some women are trafficked, some women are forced into the sex industry against their will and some women are being abused daily by their pimps/drug dealers/boyfriends.

When you hand over your cash for a lap dance, you don't know whether the woman is one of those or not. She could be choosing of her own free will. She might not be. How do you tell?

She will smile, she will appear interested in you, she will say she is happy. She has to. Or there will be nasty consequences for her.

You just can't tell.

But the men who pay for dances don't care anyway. Makes no difference to them because she is just a body.

No one who visits these clubs would want their daughter dancing there. But they are happy to stare at other peoples' naked daughters. Makes you wonder what kind of man can do that doesn't it.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 19:33:54

When you go in that strip club though, FB, how do you know which are the "deserving" ones ? You are talking about predatory women that you know here (and yes, I have met a couple of them too)

That is not what I am talking about

I am talking about the bloke (or woman...apparently there are women that do this too) who enters into a financial transaction knowing nothing about the girl's background. She could be trafficked, abused, prostituted, in fear for her children or her health. And yet, you might think she is "smug" because she has a smile plastered on her face, or somebody like GetAll doesn't actually care he cannot know for sure she is making an uncoerced choice to do what she does.

In a developed country, how is that acceptable ?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 19:36:05

Or undeveloped of course, before anyone jumps on me.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 19:43:33

Yes faire I agree with your post. Im against the industry but feel posters on here solely blaming everyone involved with a penis and absolving anyone involved with a vagina is naive at best.

How can anyone think so simply? If only life were so black and white.

But for someone who is willlingly involved how are they Not part of the problem? Im not going to think their part in sustaining the industry is all fine and dandy due to the absence of a penis. I base my opinions of peoples actions.

SomersetONeil Wed 05-Dec-12 19:45:23

FB - read the links that Mad posted.

From the first link...

"The club management take on more women than are needed in a night so it really becomes dog eat dog. Quite often I made nothing. There were a lot of nights when I would have taken money out and come home with less."


"You pay 'rent' to the club just to be there and if you can persuade someone to buy a dance, you get £20 - about 20% of which the club takes. Then there are the fines - £10 if you miss your turn to pole dance, if you're late, you're wearing the wrong shoes or you break the rules. There are so many ways to make money from you. You are constantly trying to make as much money as possible out of everybody, otherwise you are literally paying to be there."

They're trying to earn a buck by servicing the punters. I'm sure they fully realise they're 'pleasuring someone else's DH', but how else are they expected to earn their money? confused

I really don't understand why your ire isn't more directed to the 'D'Hs who create the demand for these places...

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 19:49:59

I read the link and just thought get another job. You have one life, why waste it on that misery?

How else can they earn their money- my goodness is this not 2012 when every just about any job is available to women? Its hardly like they are making money anyway so whats the point?

When I needed money as I cleaned, babysat, waitressed, worked in hairdressers etc like most people do.

SomersetONeil Wed 05-Dec-12 20:06:47

I meant how else are they expected to earn their money while they're working there - clearly I agree that there are a zillion and one better ways to earn money overall!

But this is what the reality is like for women who work in these places. As mentioned in a couple of the articles, we're being so socialised to view this as a totally normal and acceptable way to earn a living, that it's no big deal, 'empowering', etc, etc. When the reality is that it's actually incredible damaging and miserable.

And as always, it comes back to the point that the way the industry is portrayed by women working in, it versus women who have left it is very, very different...

When you start exploring it, there's a huge dissonance between the 'hard sell' and the reality - a lot of people clearly have a huge vested interest in the continuation of the sex industry...

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 20:12:04

As you say we are being socialised to see this the norm, which therefore, is precisely why women for "normal" backgrounds are now willingly go into it. Even if its "just" pole dancing in hot-pants in the club.

I cant see why this elicits any sympathy. Thats it really.

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 05-Dec-12 20:14:49

Yes, there are better ways of earning money but for these women, porn, escorts and lapdancing have been normalised so much that they view these as acceptable and that women are there to service men etc. That is partly what I mean by conditioning - its how they have been brought up and/or influenced by the people they mix with.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 20:20:17

It elicits sympathy because the socialisation, generally by men in the "it's just a bit of fun, they wouldn't do it if they didn't like it" kinda way are actual lies and make women believe it's great and can earn a load of cash, when the reality is that it is crap exploitative work that can leave you loathing half the population because of the way they dehumanise you for their pleasure.

It's the duplicity - just look at the way ALL the men on this thread and those that have been caught out describe it. It is not the truth about the harmless stag do has much deeper ramifications and as we agreed above women who are vulnerable to needing validation are being duped into it.

You do actually know that men have most of the power in society though don't you, which is obviously very relevant in all of this.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 20:53:51

I do agree with what you both say- but there are women who are exceptions to this.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:00:33

Those women you hate, FB ? You know you can get past it and look at the bigger picture ? At the moment, you just sound like another kind of woman-hater, to add to all the rest.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 21:15:50

What a truly pathetic post any fucker.

Whats wrong with you? Despite my opinion being different to many other posters they have remained polite and engaging inspite of not agreeing.

Perhaps you should learn from them in how to conduct yourself.

Just because you do not understand someone pov you can have more decorum to sink to attacks.

For someone one claims to be standing up for womenhood you sure dont mind digging your claws into other woman and ripping a great chunk of flesh of them just because their brain works differently to yours.

The irony you call me the woman hater. Or the audacity. Both apply.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:19:28

I am not attacking you, I am pointing out how your posts come across.

Report them if you think they are attacks. There is nothing wrong with me, btw.

SarahG41 Wed 05-Dec-12 21:27:20

Personally think you are over reacting. Talking about tits is what men do! Having lap dances are what men do on stag dos so they can talk more about tits.

I often check out other blokes bums and would say comments to my mates like "I would ! Would you". I would never say that near my bloke as it would hurt his feelings, like he wouldn't say who he would put in the spank bank to me - although I am interested to know... If he regularly tells you her loves you and you are happy I would forget about it am stop reading his texts.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 21:27:32

Hmmm....Accusing a woman of being a woman hater is your way of being nice is it?

I would hate to see it when you really get your claws out.

Im not reporting as its good for people to see your post.

If in your mind you think Im a woman hater as because I pointed out some woman are part of the problem (which it seemed a couple of posters said some will be too) then I don't understand your logic. Thats your problem if thats what you conclude.

But it is baseless.

Its not women hating to point out women are not perfect. Its reality.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:31:39

Nowhere have I said all women are perfect. But you have made several statements that support the denigration of women.

I am happy for my posts to stand, cheers.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 21:37:08


I judge on character not sexual organs.

Do you really expect me to have symlathy for this woman? If so why?

"The most commonly asked question is "You seem like nice girl, why are you doing this?" It's the most frustrating, patronising question in the world. I like to call them the Richard Geres of the strip club (aka Pretty Woman). I was not held at gun-point and marched in here, I chose to audition. If a customer is rude to me here, unlike a waitress, I can give him what for and leave, have him thrown out of the club even.

I make much, much more than minimum wage. My salary is better than that of an entry level job by about £10,000 – a job which I can't even get because of the economic climate despite having a degree and relevant experience. I am self-employed, I choose my own hours and have a lot of free time. I get paid to drink, dance and feel sexy. And I get to spend all night gossiping with my girlfriends."

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 21:38:28

Oh and if it were a man saying it I would still judge him as stupid twat too.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 21:40:23

FB - your posts do come across as being a little unrepresentative of women. You seem to be happy to admit that there may be a very few women who actually freely chose to enter lapdancing (which I would disagree with btw and think it is more like all, but happy to run with that) and then use these very few women to base your argument to just get on with lapdancing as a necessary evil.

You are therefore basing your argument on a few outliers, which is not usually the way logical and reasonable arguments are made.

SarahG41 You may be happy that it's all just fun for men to see women as "tits and arse" but there are a lot of women who find that quite awful and would prefer to be viewed as something other than just a sexual object for male gratification.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 21:46:49

FB - I do feel sympathy for her yes. She has a degree and experience and views explictly displaying her body to men as an "empowering" job. Yes, a lot of sympathy.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:49:15

Isn't it odd how the men on these threads simply melt away once the women start tearing chunks out of each other ?

Funny that

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 21:50:24

They have delegated their responses to the handmaidens. Time to put their feet up.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 21:51:27

" FBworry

I do agree with what you both say- but there are women who are exceptions to this."

So why are you so obsessed with these women, these scarlet women, career lap dancers who flaunt themselves at other women's husbands and enjoy it? Why is your main point about these women who, as even you admit, are in the minority?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:51:50


And give their right hands a rest.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:52

It seems to me as though you're looking to put women at the root of this. It's a common thing to do. But sometimes men really are the main problem. Yes there are exceptions (i assume) but why are we discussing the exceptions rather than the rule?

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 21:55:38

Because until now you all denied their exsistence at all norks which was ridiculous and infuriating!

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 21:58:06

Whats wrong with talking about the exceptions once in a while?

Do these conversations always have to follow the predictable formula?

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 22:00:11

Hmm not convinced. You focus on the majority, the main cause. Main problem with these places is the demand. Anything else is just an attempt to divert the conversation and make it a problem that women cause.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 22:01:34

Well in general you focus on the most relevant issues rather than the complete exceptions.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 22:05:17

I still deny their existence actually FB, if I told you what I did that would make sense (not to be a wanker, but I won't tell you what I do because I don't want to).

But, I am happy to agree for the purposes of this thread that there may be a minority of women who have made a free choice to go into the sex industry.

So, back to the OP.........yes, he's full of shit. Probably not even fully conscious of it. I wish women would read up on this, think about it, examine where they are getting their messages from and educate themselves. Most come to the same conclusion once they do.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 22:06:36

at university are we? No.

Its a general forum with a conversation with no rules. Its not up to you , me or anyone to dictate a thread.

FivesAndNorks Wed 05-Dec-12 22:08:30

I'm not dictating. I sometimes wonder how you interpret my posts so differently. Just pointing out why people are angry because you've used a thread about something a man has done wrong to continually repeat that women are to blame. That's all.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 22:13:49


Except I never said "women are to blame".

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 22:15:21

You said you have no sympathy for women who do's the same thing - or at best saying that women are complicit in the industry.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 22:18:21

Your missing vital word of WILLINGLY do it.

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 22:42:16

But very very few are actually physically forced to do it, what looks like willing behaviour may just be compliant behaviour and there is a big difference.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Wed 05-Dec-12 22:43:09

Willingly? FB, do you think any 6, 7, 10, 12 year girl from a functional family says 'I want to be a lapdancer when I grow up?'.

I'm not being facetious by the way.

Somewhere along the way something has eroded or twisted their self worth, their values, their aspirations, their expectations, their views of men, their views of women, their views of money, of themselves.

FBworry Wed 05-Dec-12 23:13:59

Not as young as that, but as they become aware of their sexuality some perfectly functioning women might think going into lap dancing will empower them.

Why not?

There is something very empowering about a man being in awe of your beauty isn't there? Being but a pedestal is exhilarating, who would deny that?

I think it would be highly plausible that you could mistakenly think this feeling of power would carry through to lap-dancing.

DadDancer Wed 05-Dec-12 23:50:54

Yeah Any Expletive i've just been observing, putting my feet up. brew

Can i just ask how many lap dancing clubs you folks have actually been to and how many dancers you have spoken to?, You act as if you are experts in this field but it appears to me a lot of you have just been copying and pasting the 'Object' website with zero experience of what you are talking about. I think GetAllTheThings was spot on with branding you as 'arm chair warriors'

Also you say you care for the dancers but i bet you wouldn't hesitate in getting these places banned or closed down?

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 23:55:05

"There is something very empowering about a man being in awe of your beauty isn't there? Being but a pedestal is exhilarating, who would deny that?"

Yes I would when my beauty is based entirely on my tits, arse and vagina. A silent compliant beauty? How empowering hmm

mcmooncup Wed 05-Dec-12 23:57:23

I imagine you have lots of experience of these places Daddy, yes hmm

And the conversations you have with the dancers while you are there will be completely objective won't they? You know, while you are paying her to entertain you?

FBworry Thu 06-Dec-12 00:07:36

Mooncup... Okaaayyyy....

Im talking about in general life,men admiring your beauty is rather nice and yes, empowering.

When dressed. You know how men admire your face, hair etc? No?

Easy to see how one might believe becoming a lap dancer might extend this feeling.

Hardly rocket science is it?

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 00:18:16

I have a lot more to offer than just my physical beauty. I don't need, require or be validated by a man's response to my beauty.

This really isn't rocket science but I'm afraid does again reveal a lot about your attitudes towards a woman's place.

DadDancer Thu 06-Dec-12 00:20:26

Somewhere along the way something has eroded or twisted their self worth, their values, their aspirations, their expectations, their views of men, their views of women, their views of money, of themselves.

or maybe they just enjoy getting their kit off and like the attention?

FBworry Thu 06-Dec-12 00:20:31

This reveals to me you cant read.

FBworry Thu 06-Dec-12 00:22:10

You do realise that post in answer to an entirely poster wasnt actually about you dont you mooncup?!

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 00:23:40

Why did you put my name on it then? hmm

FBworry Thu 06-Dec-12 00:25:09

The 12.13 post

You started on about your arse, but the post wasnt about you

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 00:25:34

Jesus Daddy, you best go put your feet up again. Its not even good baiting? <yawn>

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 00:28:17

There isn't a 12.13 post.

But if you mean why did I respond to your 11.13 post? Because it is a public forum? That's the idea.

FBworry Thu 06-Dec-12 00:31:18

Then respond to whats written, dont twist things to make it about you.

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 00:36:52

You asked, who would deny not being exhilarated, or something equally dramatic, by being admired for your beauty by a man?

I said, I would deny being exhilarated. And indeed held back from saying I find it tiresome to keep to the question.

No twisting I'm afraid.

FBworry Thu 06-Dec-12 00:43:03

It was a rhetorical question. The post was an explanation to another poster of why a seemingly "normal" woman might initially find lap dancing appealing. A pretty plausible explanation at that

Nobody was asking you anything.

DadDancer Thu 06-Dec-12 01:58:07

^I imagine you have lots of experience of these places Daddy, yes

And the conversations you have with the dancers while you are there will be completely objective won't they? You know, while you are paying her to entertain you?^

i am not a regular of lap dancing clubs, just go to them on special occasions like stag do's/ office parties etc. Saying that i have been to a number of different clubs and have met a fair few dancers. You'd be surprised how honest a lot of them are, they will tell you about things like their boyfriends, families, their kids, how much the club charges them for house fees or even how they are bored with their jobs. Not exactly what i'd call fantasy chat. As i mentioned earlier the only fantasy thing is the dance itself. Also you only pay for dances, they don't charge you to chat to them.

oh and it wasn't baiting i was stating a fact that some people are natural exhibitionists.

Hitchy83 Thu 06-Dec-12 04:05:20

What have I started!!

Right so in conclusion for my original post had it out with hubby again, and for the last time, I won't go into detail but we resolved things. He knows he's done wrong, we've talked about it, and now we're moving on! I'm not being walked over, I'm admitting he made a mistake but that doesn't mean our marriage should end and our family for our son be destroyed.

So anyway I'm closing this web page down from my phone so I don't keep reading all those who respond saying how my husband is a sexist pig etc (seriously not helping and the insults towards him I found quite offensive to some degree!), he's my husband and I love him!


Fairenuff Thu 06-Dec-12 08:28:57

Just in case you peek Hitchy wink, it seems that you have come a long way from your first few posts where you weren't even sure if you should say anything to him.

If nothing else, perhaps this thread has helped you to see that, no, you are not being silly and, no, you do not have to accept his behaviour. You have spoken up about how you feel and made it clear where your boundaries lie.

Hopefully, this new found voice will be piping up loud and clear whenever you think he oversteps the boundaries. The telling friends stuff that he should be talking to you about, etc. There are always things in relationships that need to be discussed, no matter how difficult the conversation, so being able to communicate, to be heard and to be respected is most important.

Being told that you are being silly, everyone does it, get over it, stop going on about it, is not going to make the relationship happy. It just means that one person is trying to belittle the other in order to hide something from them or avoid taking responsibility like an adult.

One other thing. Instead of using the phrase 'lap dancing club' in you conversations, try replacing it with 'sex industry'. This makes the point more real and less excusable.

DadDancer Thu 06-Dec-12 12:35:58

Fair play Hitchy glad to hear you resolved it. Sorry your thread turned into another battle royal between the pro's and the antis on the morals of Lap dancing clubs.

Kaluki Thu 06-Dec-12 14:25:17

I can't believe this thread is still going!!
Some of you like the sound of your own voices!!!
The one thing you all seem to have overlooked is that the main reason behind lap dancing is MONEY!!! Plain and simple.
These girls can get more money stripping off for one night than working a full week in a shop on minimum wage so it seems like a no brainer.
It's easy for you to sit there in your nice middle class homes with your judgey pants hoiked right up but the fact is that for some people this is their only way of keeping a roof over their (and their kids) heads. That is the sad thing about it.
All the time men are prepared to pay for sex women will provide it. That won't change.

Kaluki Thu 06-Dec-12 14:25:42

Oh and I'm glad it's all sorted out now Hitchy x

GetAllTheThings Thu 06-Dec-12 14:39:07

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FivesGoldNorks Thu 06-Dec-12 14:44:58

Hitchy glad you have it sorted smile

Kaluki I am not judging the women

Kaluki Thu 06-Dec-12 15:34:06

I known you weren't Norks.
It's also a myth that lap dancers/prostitutes are drug addicts who are forced into it by their pimps. Some are, granted, but many are ordinary women trying to make ends meet - whether single mums, students or whatever and that is their choice at the end of the day. Sad but true.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 16:46:57

Well, kaluki, for someone who doesn't like the sound of his/her voice, you popped back to have your say again wink

The one thing that you appear to have overlooked (to echo your condescending and speaking-in-words-of-one-syllable stance) is that the only person judging the women who provide sexual services is supposedly on your side of this "debate"

In addition, as has been said time and time again by the anti-sex industry "armchair warriors" on this thread and the myriad others is that we know there are some women that have made an uncoerced choice to accept payment for sexual services. When we condemn the men that pay to have primary female sex organs rubbed on their person they simply have no way of knowing which women have and which women haven't, and further to that, appear to not even care

DaddyPaysForALapDancer seems to think it enough to have a quick chat with them first ? I wonder how that goes ?

Punter: Hi doll, can I just check if you are drug-addicted, trafficked, beaten or otherwise have no real choice whether or not to pretend you are turned on by my hyper-masculine charm and money ?

Lapdance: No, I am a student paying my way through Uni and I love my work, it empowers me. I find it easy to hide my disgust at how your sleazy mind works and the fact I wouldn't piss on you if you were burning, should we pass in the street.

Punter: Smashing. Now bump and grind, baby. Show me how hot I think I am.

Lovely grin

GetAllTheThings Thu 06-Dec-12 17:40:34

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AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 17:44:32

I need clothes, these days of technology I would struggle without a phone, I can't get to work without driving my car

I can also abhor other things, as well as the sex industry

Nobody needs to buy sexual services.

GetAllTheThings Thu 06-Dec-12 18:04:13

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DadDancer Thu 06-Dec-12 18:06:55

DaddyPaysForALapDancer seems to think it enough to have a quick chat with them first ? I wonder how that goes ?

Punter: Hi doll, can I just check if you are drug-addicted, trafficked, beaten or otherwise have no real choice whether or not to pretend you are turned on by my hyper-masculine charm and money ?

Lapdance: No, I am a student paying my way through Uni and I love my work, it empowers me. I find it easy to hide my disgust at how your sleazy mind works and the fact I wouldn't piss on you if you were burning, should we pass in the street.

Punter: Smashing. Now bump and grind, baby. Show me how hot I think I am.

confused and back to the real world..........

FivesGoldNorks Thu 06-Dec-12 18:11:09

Oh bloody hell. This is getting silly. No one needs lap dance. Bringing in other issues is just an attempt to deflect the argument - you are seriously equating paying for sexual services with buying clothes.

FivesGoldNorks Thu 06-Dec-12 18:12:06

point she was making is that you can't look at a smiling semi naked woman and decide "she's one of the empowered ones who is not being exploited"
If you think you can you are deluded

GetAllTheThings Thu 06-Dec-12 18:19:40

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FivesGoldNorks Thu 06-Dec-12 18:24:43

ooh very bitchy and quite unnecessary
Do you really not see the difference between everyday consumer goods and sexual services

Kaluki Thu 06-Dec-12 18:37:52

AF you are very patronising to anyone who doesn't share your point of view.

Wheresmypopcorn Thu 06-Dec-12 18:38:48

So you are shocked you found out he's a man? Don't worry OP, I don't think it's that bad really. I have a very good policy - I don't want to know about anyone's stag do. go to a trip bar and see how fake it all is if you are worried - the girls look seriously bored and the guys just look like suckers! No, I wouldn't be overjoyed by what I saw in the lap dance section happening to my husband but it was his stag do and he was probably bought bone by the guys. Have you never looked at a pic of Daniel Craig and thought he was hot?

FivesGoldNorks Thu 06-Dec-12 18:50:45

No he's a man who chose to pay for sexual services. Please don't tar all men with the same brush.

Abitwobblynow Thu 06-Dec-12 18:52:47

Hi OP, it is the secret and 'failing to mention' that you are upset about.

This is an issue, let him know it is completely unacceptable and that if he does it again [consequence] and wanking on the sofa to his half naked stars will be his reward

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 19:08:53

kaluki...bitchy (and patronising) right back atcha

I find I get called "bitchy" when I have run rings round someone's the last-ditch attempt to put me down. And it doesn't work. may say "get in the real world" but really, have you any idea of how you come across on all these threads ?

you are a punter...that deserves a special kind of contempt...and hey, you're worth it wink

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 19:10:19

"Bought bone by the guys"

That typo may just hit the nail on the head

Shared sexual experiences among men. Makes you think, don't it ?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 19:11:54

My apologies, kaluki, I thought you called me bitchy. You didn't and I take that comment back x

(the patronising bit is the same though)

DadDancer Thu 06-Dec-12 21:06:08

Shared sexual experiences among men. Makes you think, don't it ?

Does the thought of that excite you Any Expletive?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 21:12:36

I think it does you, though

Why else would a group of men court shared sexual experiences ? There's only one reason I can think of....sexual display for other men.

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 21:18:33

"DadDancer Thu 06-Dec-12 12:35:58

Fair play Hitchy glad to hear you resolved it. Sorry your thread turned into another battle royal between the pro's and the antis on the morals of Lap dancing clubs."

Hitchy - does that post make you feel a little bit ick and that you have just been patted on the head and called Pet?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 21:20:02

DadPaysLapDancer approves of your choices.

Time for a rethink. Methinks.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Thu 06-Dec-12 21:40:36


No, AnyFucker is not patronising. She is uncompromisng, direct, passionate and utterly consistent in her views about these matters.

AnyFucker - why for the love of sweet baby Jesus are you engaging with DadDancer?! He's like a cartoon villain.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 21:45:24

I know. I remain undeleted though. That is progress wink

Proudnscaryvirginmary Thu 06-Dec-12 21:56:29

Maybe HQ are on the gin again wink

izzyizin Thu 06-Dec-12 21:58:38

"undeleted" AF? That's a misprint - from what I've read on this thread you are undefeated grin

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 21:59:21

Oi. I am very polite in my contempt.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 22:00:19

Izzy, fgs, where have you been

< hands baton over wearily >

izzyizin Thu 06-Dec-12 22:05:14

I get the feeling that little icky Hitchy is accustomed to being patted on the head and called Pet by her chauvinistic h mcmooncup, and that state of affairs won't be changing any time soon.

As for Dad and his fantasy dances, he's convinced himself he's a cut above the other schmucks but in reality he's a flat pack punter who's no different to the rest.

mcmooncup Thu 06-Dec-12 22:17:50

"Wheresmypopcorn Thu 06-Dec-12 18:38:48

So you are shocked you found out he's a man? Don't worry OP, I don't think it's that bad really. I have a very good policy - I don't want to know about anyone's stag do."

My favourite post of the day.
What a fucking beyond brilliant policy that is.

AF - could you just try for a deletion - there's nowt on the telly and I've finished my work?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Thu 06-Dec-12 22:22:01

McM, I am a reformed character...sorry, no can do

if I start, I won't stop

It's the idea that all men behave like this and that their wives and partners should just put up and shut up that gets me. Especially when it is said by other women. My DH simply does not behave like this and never would and we have brought up our sons in the same way. If I hear that they have visited sex clubs, they would get a flea in their ear from me and DH and they know it. I just don't think they would as they respect women.

Fairenuff Thu 06-Dec-12 22:43:46

It is actually ridiculous to say that partners should just accept it.

What if it were the other way round and the husband found out that, 3 years ago, his wife danced naked for another man. Would he just accept it as 'a bit of fun'.

What if lots of her friends did it too. Would that be ok because 'everyone's doing it'?

If it weren't so sad it would be funny.

DadDancer Fri 07-Dec-12 03:57:24

Ha ha listen to you all, Any Expletive and her little disciples still having a dig at the OP because she didn't file for divorce and that you didn't get your kicks from knowing you contributed to wrecking another relationship.

AF - could you just try for a deletion - there's nowt on the telly and I've finished my work?
I think that says it all really...........and you call me sad!

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 07-Dec-12 06:53:21

Sad Dad, could you find on this thread please where I have urged op to divorce her husband

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 07-Dec-12 08:29:04


I can't see anyone saying leave the bastard on this thread hmm

The only people doing the relationship wrecking are those who are choosing to look outside of their relationships for their sexual kicks.

AgathaHoHoHo Fri 07-Dec-12 09:27:05

The only people doing the relationship wrecking are those who are choosing to look outside of their relationships for their sexual kicks

Beautifully put, MadAbout.

FBworry Fri 07-Dec-12 10:15:54

I can Anyfucker

Add message | Report | Message poster AnyFuckerForAMincePie Mon 03-Dec-12 11:10:13
Hitchy, wouldn't you rather be married to a man than a boy ?

FivesGoldNorks Fri 07-Dec-12 10:18:09

You heard the term "man up". Boys mature into men

FBworry Fri 07-Dec-12 10:42:22

I might be inclined to believe you it was just meant as such, if it was followed up by some wise, insightful advice on how to improve the relationship.

Except that never happens.

FBworry Fri 07-Dec-12 10:45:49

"AF - could you just try for a deletion - there's nowt on the telly and I've finished my work?"

Words fail me.

izzyizin Fri 07-Dec-12 11:02:07

Would that be a permanent failure? <hopeful emoticon>

FBworry Fri 07-Dec-12 11:14:23

Yah know.

Normally I hate to disappoint people.
But cos your so special, in your case I will make an exception.

Kaluki Fri 07-Dec-12 11:14:26

Resorting to insults now Izzy? Very grown up!
Maybe nobody actually said the words "leave the bastard" you are far more subtle than that.
But leading the OP to think that this wasn't a one off, that her DH has no respect for her and then patronising the hell out of her by telling her she has her head in the sand when she says she believes him and wants to move on ... making her question her marriage.
That is disgusting!

mcmooncup Fri 07-Dec-12 11:27:18

What is so disgusting about questioning a marriage where perhaps there is some underlying respect issues?

If there are none, great. However, there is a definite tendency for women to "put up and shut up" when it comes to this hilarious type of male behaviour - despite how they actually feel about it.

I would certainly want any woman to ask themselves why they have had to go through counselling to be able to put up with the man they are married to, or why they feel they cannot bring up issues which are upsetting them. People on this thread have said the best policy is to just not ask what goes on on a stag do.......I mean really? Is that the best we can expect from our life partners? The man does what they like and the woman just sucks it up cos it's what men do, yet building resentment every day, ultimately not having a happy marriage.

FBworry Fri 07-Dec-12 11:44:29


Your post would be the IDEAL repsonse. Woman giving other women the space to validate their feelings and equipping them with tools to speak openly to their partners and confidence to demand change.

The ultimate goal should be to repair and rebuild the marriage by putting things into perspective , looking at the postives and evaluting the marriage.

Except that is not what has happened or on hundreds of other threads. Instead as Kaluki says its just about putting horrid ideas into the ops head, a sense of disappointment the marriage hasnt ended and downright abuse to anyone not on the " ltb" side.

Kaluki Fri 07-Dec-12 11:44:48

Did all those things definitely apply in the OPs marriage then? Because the impression I got was that it was one time and he is a good husband who the OP loves and respects. It is one issue in an otherwise happy relationship as far as I can see.
Too much projection going on - not all men are the same. Some of them are human and make mistakes just like us. It doesn't make them sexist abusive pigs because they had ONE lapdance at a stag do!
But I can go on till I turn blue - it will make no difference.
Thank Goodness the OP and her DH have sorted things out and she didn't listen to all the man haters.

mcmooncup Fri 07-Dec-12 13:06:28

FB - I disagree that the ultimate aim is always to repair and rebuild a marriage. My point is that many women have swallowed this rhetoric as fact and by doing so park their valid feelings and values aside. Ultimately leading to resentful unhappy existences.

Kaluki - I think you need to remind yourself what being sexist actually is.

sex·ism (skszm)
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

If you look at the dictionary definition Going to a lapdancing club = sexist. Because it is promoting the stereotypical view that women are for the sexual pleasure of men and is a demonstration of a sexist attitude.
Sending half naked pictures of women to other men and talking about how much you would want to "do 'em" is sexist because again it is reducing women to the stereotypical view of them being sexual objects, and again is demonstrating a sexist attitude.

I didn't make the definition of sexism up. But if someone demonstrates sexist behaviour then it makes them sexist.

You say that there is an opinion that all men are the same. Actually the only people who are saying men are all the same are those defending lapdancing - saying "it's just how men are", "wow, yes he's a man". If you read the 'other sides' posts, it is the opposite, they are saying not all men are sexist, indeed those that don't go to lap dancing clubs and send naked leering texts to their mates are not sexist.

mrsEbruce Fri 07-Dec-12 13:28:13

I dont find this a problem its a dance, most of these women are married with kids simply doing a job. It doesnt mean a man has no respect in his wife or marraige. My husband been a few times and always discloses all the nights antics ive also been with him and there classy clubs not seedy little places you would think. I dont see any harm in it tbh if theres trust and respect there for each other.

mcmooncup Fri 07-Dec-12 13:37:46

mreEbruce - "if theres trust and respect there for each other"

In OP's case = no trust because he lied
Respect = consistently demonstrates a lack of respect for women by his continued leering texts etc. Op is a woman so by definition disrespected.

Kaluki Fri 07-Dec-12 16:33:21

Alright mooncup we get it!
You own a dictionary!!!

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 07-Dec-12 17:09:50

Good post mooncup


TwoFacedCows Fri 07-Dec-12 19:06:23

i am not saying a word!! grin

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Fri 07-Dec-12 19:07:39

< hard stare at TFC >

TwoFacedCows Fri 07-Dec-12 19:23:31

grin <aviods AF eye contact> eek!

Fairenuff Fri 07-Dec-12 20:04:09

My husband been a few times and always discloses all the nights antics ive also been with him and there classy clubs not seedy little places you would think. I dont see any harm in it tbh if theres trust and respect there for each other

That's fine if it's something that you've agreed within your relationship. You've discussed it and he understands how you feel. Presumably, you have agreed the boundaries such as no shagging prostitutes, or whatever.

It's up to individuals to decide what behaviour is acceptable to them. It doesn't mean that OP is wrong because she is upset by this. It doesn't mean that you are wrong for not minding. Each to their own.

But this is primarily a thread about lack of respect, disregard for a partner's wishes or feelings, cheating and lying. That is why many posters have suggested that OP have a good look at her relationship.

SomersetONeil Fri 07-Dec-12 23:53:26

"Thank Goodness the OP and her DH have sorted things out and she didn't listen to all the man haters."

I always find this such an illuminating statement....

As if questioning bad behaviour by men is 'man-hating'. hmm

I have a lovely DH. A lovely brother, father, uncles, FIL, BILs and loads of lovely male friends. I am as far from a man-hater as you can get.

It's because of all these lovely men in my life that I am happy to question the behaviour of men who don't display those standards. I know no-one is perfect, but it's also actually entirely OK to remind people that there are lots of lovely, good, kind, decent men out there (of which the OP's DH may well be one), and that questioning and being unhappy &#373;ith shit behaviour is NOT man-hating.

In fact, it says an awful lot about your perception of men to even use the phrase 'man-haters' in a context such as this. Think about it.

DadDancer Sat 08-Dec-12 02:54:49

Fairenuff i agree with you regarding every couple having different boundaries and believe there is no such thing as a one size fits all. Every couple is always an individual case and this is what the thread should have focused on.

Unfortunately this has come too late and has not been the approach taken on here by the likes of Any Expletive and her motley crew who have just been stirring things up and insulting the OP in a blatant relationship sabotage attempt.

I still think that perspective and rationale have been the major downfalls of a lot of the advice offered here. Someone having a lap dance on a stag do 3 years ago is not something that should have been made an issue of. If the OP's husband was going on a regular basis then yeah it would have been grounds to have a good look at her relationship, but this was not the case. It was a one off in a very typical stag do situation, which i reckon the vast majority of people have experienced at some point in their lives.

DadDancer Sat 08-Dec-12 03:16:18

Somerset unfortunately when people start firing insults around, the perception given is one of man hating. There's just no getting away from that on this forum.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 08-Dec-12 08:29:17

* Someone having a lap dance on a stag do 3 years ago is not something that should have been made an issue of.*

Daddancer - its clear you still do not get what we are talking about.

Its not just the lapdance that Op is upset about. The fact that he lied about it and the pervy text exchanges with his friend are the other issues that she has brought up.

Fairenuff Sat 08-Dec-12 09:11:25

Someone having a lap dance on a stag do 3 years ago is not something that should have been made an issue of. If the OP's husband was going on a regular basis then yeah it would have been grounds to have a good look at her relationship


Why is it not ok if he is doing it regularly? What's wrong with that?

I would like someone who believes this to explain it to me.

Either it's ok to do or it's not. That's like saying everyone can cheat on their partner once but if they do it a lot it's a deal breaker. Or everyone can use the sex industry once but if they do it a lot it's a deal breaker. Or you can look at their moral values and say everyone can use a woman's body for their own sexual gratification once but if they do it a lot they're disrespectul to women.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 08-Dec-12 11:35:00

DadDancer, I don't hate men. I'm not too keen on you, though and am suspicious of your motives for popping up on these types of threads to defend men's use of the sex industry. Do you post on much of anything else at all ? Don't answer that...advance search tells me all I need to know wink

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 08-Dec-12 11:37:32

And DD, if you are fed up of me insulting you, stop fucking bringing my name up on this thread every time it goes quiet.

Kaluki Sat 08-Dec-12 15:17:23

Are you this aggressive and nasty in real life AF?
You need to chill out a bit! grin

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 08-Dec-12 15:20:17

Are you such a handmaiden in RL?

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sat 08-Dec-12 15:27:11

Does it make you uncomfortable to see a man not get his views tolerated ? What is it to you that DD gets called out for exactly what he is? Let him defend himself, he's a grown up, after all

SomersetONeil Sat 08-Dec-12 18:34:26

Kaluki - are you conveniently ignoring the point about 'man-hating'...?

DadDancer Sat 08-Dec-12 19:37:21

MadAboutHotChoc please spare me the classic 'you don't what you are talking about' argument it's like one of those last ditch attempts to have a dig when all else fails.
I think most people were in agreement with the lying element of OP's problem, (including me although i didn't state it)and she said she had already addressed this and had it out with him. The phone thing didn't really get discussed much, but let's face it couple of blokes exchanging a bit of porn may be a bit juvenile but how is that any different to women exchanging a copy of 50 shades, and them having a good dirty laugh about it? It's was only ever a secondary issue and was in my opinion very trivial.

So the whole thread has pretty much evolved into the lap dancing element of the problem, which has rightly or wrongly been the main point of the discussion here. You must surely be able to see that?

Fairenuff Sat 08-Dec-12 19:50:48

let's face it couple of blokes exchanging a bit of porn may be a bit juvenile but how is that any different to women exchanging a copy of 50 shades, and them having a good dirty laugh about it

I think this is a very good point.

There is a massive difference. Only not everyone can see it at first.

Internet/photographic porn involves real people. Fiction does not.

Those who claim that there is no harm in the sex industry do tend to appear confused on this issue.

DadDancer Sat 08-Dec-12 22:18:34

Fairenuff going back to your previous post regarding the issue of visiting an LDC for the one off stag do's vs attending regularly. I think morally yes your right there is no difference. However this is only half the story and there are other big differences including the practicality and the amount of time and money being spent from attending on a regular basis. This could bring in a whole range of relationship issues, from using it as a substitute for your love life, to not giving your OH and kids enough attention, to blowing more money than you can afford etc. These were what i consider to be the bigger issues and were what i was thinking about when i made the above statement.

With regards to the 50 shades of grey comparison i take your point about it being fictional as opposed to real people, but it was really meant as a comparison that men and women can both display bawdy behavior when it comes to erotic entertainment. Maybe the borrowing of a DVD of a raunchy film would have been a better comparison for this.