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Sharing naked pictures taken and shared without someone's permission in order to bully them

(162 Posts)
Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 08:55:37

Haven't name changed because I don't want to undermine ability to advise.

Also, am not interested in advice which tells me I am wrong to be upset about this or this is a small issue I shouldn't be making it into a big one because it is pointless given I have a different opinion which I am not going to change. What I want is a bit of support/advice with thinking this through in the context of me feeling it is wrong.

Dh's best friend visiting last night. Something weird going on between him and I anyway; on Thursday he texted me (not uncommon) asking what I was up to, I replied I was tired and stressed, the house was a mess and I was avoiding it in the bath and contemplating drinking a half drunk old bottle of wine which might be vinegar by now. Cue a whole night of pestering to send him a picture of me in the bath indirectly. This kind of thing is not uncommon, he's quite like this (Pervy) fairly indiscriminately when he has been drinking.

Last night it was a bit like he was trying extra hard to be a sexist prick, telling me repeatedly i wouldn't be interested in things because i was female and asking dh's opinion about stuff because he was a man. At one point he got out his phone and was laughing that he had a picture of a woman half naked on it to show dh. He does this kind of thing fairly often too - trying to give dh porn (will not have it in the house where we have 4 small children). I am seriously anti-porn; they both know this so I was already hmm

He went on to say the photo had been taken without permission by the woman's ex and when they split distributed round the school she used to work in causing her to leave her job and move away, the kids in her new school got hold of the photo and distributed it, crazily so did the teachers and even though he left the school in July, even he got texted it.

I feel angry and sad for this woman, I told him it was really really inappropriate, his reaction was "so what? She's over 16..."

My dh was joining in with my expression that it was wrong at this point so friend says "so you don't want to see it then?" Dh says "well I didn't say that!" and giggles so then friend holds the phone up and dh looks and friend bangs on about the photo.

At this point I had not had a drink because I had a cold. I have been trying to be kinder to dh recently so have been going to things with his friends (they aren't my friends or people I particularly like but he normally wants me to come when he meets them all), cooking nice food for him, trying not to rant about politics or put things on the TV that he hates etc that day I had been cooking a curry and stuffed parathas and cleaning the whole house from top to bottom/sorting out our bedroom so it would be nice for him (us) when he came home. I also have a stinking cold and by 8.30 when we sat down I was knackered but had lemsip rather than going to bed because friend was coming round. This just felt like a slap in the face from him.

At that point I felt I had a choice between making my feelings known or having a drink so I would be able to continue to be friendly. One of the things that stresses dh out is when I argue moral points like this with his friends so I am trying to bite my lip.

So all night I pretended to be friendly and casual and this morning I am angry at myself for allowing myself to a. Be changed and b. be walked all over like some bastarding doormat when I'm trying really hard to be kind.

OpheliaPayneAgain Sat 24-Nov-12 09:03:19

Cue a whole night of pestering to send him a picture of me in the bath indirectly.

What does your partner say about this? Do you show him the texts? And why you encourage the bloke by reply to him and having him in the house is beyond me.

One of the things that stresses dh out is when I argue moral points like this with his friends

Really? Just that, really? You can't have an opinion?

Your DH sounds a right lemon and so do his mates.

Leverette Sat 24-Nov-12 09:03:20

Ugh horrible.

Does your DH know his best mate asks for pictures of you in the bath??

Being kind shouldn't extend to entertaining a sexual harasser in your own home.

As for the picture of this poor woman...what a cunt to find her predicament so amusing and enjoy perpetuating the bullying.

Vaginald Sat 24-Nov-12 09:03:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Punkatheart Sat 24-Nov-12 09:07:03

Firstly, your DH's friend's behaviour and attiude is pretty revolting. You can judge people to some extent by their friends.

You truly need to sit down and think about your relationship and your role in it. No, you do not deserve or need to be a doormat....

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:12:54

Yes, dh knows he's like this. He often does it in front of dh, it isn't reserved specially for me. I am trying not to rock the friendship boat because a lot of his friends are objectionable to me but they are his friends. Previously I have said I don't like them and don't want anything to do with them and this has made him unhappy. So I was trying... Now I think stupidly...

Think friend was trying to piss me off and cosy up to dh because of the drunk bath texting he realised he'd done when he sobered up. Friend I suppose is pretty irrelevant. Until last night he's been a really good (supportive) friend to me too but written that off at this point (wonder if that was the point).

More bothered about dh and his not standing up for me which always happens.

ProcrastinatingPanda Sat 24-Nov-12 09:15:51

Harsh vaginald, no need for the disabalism!

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:16:22

Have been fine having a little flirt with friend in the past btw, not serious, quite liked him until last night but has made me uncomfortable with his perviness more than once.

Vaginald Sat 24-Nov-12 09:17:53

prostinating I truly had no idea it was a term associated with disability & now I am mortified!!!! Will report my post!

joblot Sat 24-Nov-12 09:25:20

The scenarios you describe are truly awful. Asking for naked pics is revolting and disrespectful- of you and your p. This man is vile and not a friend. The pics of the woman are criminal and absolutely unforgivable. What horrible men you know- and how soul destroying that you have to bend yourself out of shape to make your p happy.

Having opinions isn't ranting, it's human. I'm sorry but your relationship sounds very unfulfilling and unhealthy. You should feel able to be who you are not who your p wants you to be. Your post made me fume

Longdistance Sat 24-Nov-12 09:25:27

He'd be banned from my home.
What a vile little man.
He ruined a woman's career and life. Absolutely despicable!

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:26:06

I know what his friendships say about him btw. It is that he is a loyal and friendly person who doesn't assert his feelings when I think he should. His friends are all people from high school or uni and it is longevity and loyality that keeps them together.

HappyTurquoise Sat 24-Nov-12 09:26:26

I agree with others here, this friend sounds vile. However, how exactly is your dh meant to stand up for you any better when you are texting this perve while you're in the bath, and sending him encouraging signals? Stand up for yourself, he can't do that for you!

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:28:24

To be fair it is ranting rather than having opinions that i do and it is annoying. But I do now think it was wrong to stop doing it to help him avoid dealing with his lack of assertiveness - thought I was just doing it to be kind but I now see it was that.

PopMusicShoobyDoobyDoA Sat 24-Nov-12 09:30:30

OP, this friend of your husband is a misogynistic, immature twat and a sexual harasser to boot. Ugh! Seriously, telling him your were the bath was like a red bull to a flag. Did you enjoy that text conversation? If the answer is no, why did you enable it?

It's great that you are making an effort for your husband (as an aside I have to wonder why you feel you have to - I don't know your background) but it doesn't mean that you stop from giving your opinions, especially on something that really gets to you. Playing the nice wifey by stifling your opinions is not healthy. But you know this and that is why you are so angry. I don't blame you, I'd be furious myself.

So, what are you going to do next time something like this happens?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:30:54

I do stand up for myself to the friend but not so harshly anymore to be fair. At one point I would go to bed when he came over to avoid him (don't do banning), then he's been nice for years and then this week he's been nasty again.

PopMusicShoobyDoobyDoA Sat 24-Nov-12 09:31:54

X post

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 24-Nov-12 09:31:59

Happy that's a bit harsh - if I got a text asking what I was up to and I was in the bath, I would say just that. It's not flirty, it's true.

joblot Sat 24-Nov-12 09:32:37

Your h is happy to look at obscene pics of a woman/victim of harassment? You're ok with that? I'd be horrified. Maybe it's just me though. I would be thinking this could be anyone, it could be me, I could never condone someone being amused at another persons suffering

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:34:08

I would have sent the same text to anyone btw, saying I shouldn't mention the bath's existence in an ordinary casual conversation to someone because it will goad them into sexually harassing behaviour is a bit victim blamey.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:34:31

Joblot - really not ok with it at all.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sat 24-Nov-12 09:36:06

Is he aware it's a criminal offence? To show others / send on the pics let alone take them

joblot Sat 24-Nov-12 09:36:21

Sorry offred I seem to be ranting a bit... I feel like you're putting up with more than you should have to and that's sad

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:37:17

I will not text friend anymore now, if he texts me I will not reply. If he comes round I think I'll just avoid him or suggest dh goes out to meet him. If I wanted to maintain the friendship I developed with him during the time he was nice I'd challenge him but actually I don't.

Don't know what to do about dh. Don't want him near me.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:38:34

Can'tbelieve - yes, that's what I was telling him when he said "so what?" He didn't take them this time just got them texted to him and is sharing them.

PopMusicShoobyDoobyDoA Sat 24-Nov-12 09:39:34

Sorry, I thought you were texting him back. So you just said I'm in the bath and then he just kept texting you? Ok.

Btw, I don't do banning of friends either, I do avoidance.

So, what are you going to do next time?

Lovingfreedom Sat 24-Nov-12 09:40:44

Stop texting him for a start. Why are you frequently texting someone you don't even like and who is disrespectful to you?
What happened to the woman in the pic is terrible but tbh by the time it gets to your DH it is 'a woman in the pic' and I think most blokes would have a look, even if they agree that it's totally out of order to take the pic and circulate it.

amarylisnightandday Sat 24-Nov-12 09:41:48

Couple of years back I could have written the whole op. I used to think it was exp friends that were the problem. I was deluded. It was just him. He chose to keep that company.
The not liking you argue a moral point thing was a huge, huge issue in my marriage. I didn't even especially want ecp to stand up for me I just wanted to state my feelings without fear of retribution sad.

The friend is no friend and your dh needs to decide who his alliance is with. Someone who treats you like that is not a supportive friend.

PopMusicShoobyDoobyDoA Sat 24-Nov-12 09:42:17

Gosh, this thread is fast moving! I keep x-posting.

Yes, no contact with friend and avoidance is good.

Not sure about husband though.

Lovingfreedom Sat 24-Nov-12 09:42:54

Sorry - cross posted... yeah just cool it with the friend. If he's decent he'll get the message and start behaving.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:45:49

Often text him because dh is at work during the day so he arranges things trough me and he has been nice for years, we'd become friends during that period and he is dh's best friend of 23 years +. I met him separately to dh too and liked him before that and then he was an idiot and I wrote him off before giving him another chance (which he has now buggered up).

joblot Sat 24-Nov-12 09:46:29

On another note, did your h appreciate all the effort you made cooking and cleaning?

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 09:47:36

If my dh looked at that type of picture on a mates phone in front of me he'd be shown the door alongside his friend.
Even idiots who visit lap dancers or strip clubs don't do do in front if their wives fgs.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:49:27

Was expecting people to say "oh FFS men look at tits get over it" hence the disclaimer.

Should add dh doesn't mention discomfort at my ranting (it is ranting) or ask me not to do it. He actually has no real input into the relationship where his needs/feelings are concerned and so I have to guess and try things to prevent him getting upset. This is one thing I was trying.

Last night was feeling a bit like get at offred night though with both of them making snide comments about my politics/ranting <- has not ever happened before.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:50:58

Joblot - yes he did, he's always really grateful and appreciative about that and also a lot of the time it is him that does the cleaning while I cook which is why I made a special effort to do it all while he was at work so we could relax when he came home. We're having a stressful time ATM.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:51:49

If he is upset he doesn't mention it either btw, just eventually does something passive aggressive when it all builds up.

glastocat Sat 24-Nov-12 09:53:10

I would be livid. I would think less of my husband if he had a look, knowing the poor woman hadn't given permission, but I would be disgusted at both of them.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 09:53:47

Ledkr - that's why I feel angry with myself because I feel that's what I should have done and now having not done it deliberately I don't know where to go from here. All the children are up and we can't talk argue until later.

Leverette Sat 24-Nov-12 09:59:16

He actually has no real input into the relationship where his needs/feelings are concerned and so I have to guess and try things to prevent him getting upset

How can you actually get to know someone if they don't communicate their needs/feelings? You mean he doesn't communicate them in an adult way but strops or kicks off or whinges when you then get something wrong because you're not a mind reader?

Last night was feeling a bit like get at offred night though with both of them making snide comments about my politics/ranting <- has not ever happened before.

The 'friend' is clearly a bully towards women, as revealed by his words and actions re woman in photo. Joblot said something pertinent about people who enjoy others' suffering. And your H joined in. Utterly charming hmm

HandbagCrab Sat 24-Nov-12 10:00:54

Oh offred sad You give such excellent measured advice to others, I wish you could be as kind to yourself.

You spent the day cooking and cleaning. Your dh comes home with his mate. You feel ill but make an effort to spend time with him. You are deliberately excluded, put down because you're female, feel unable to express your opinion. Then in front of you your dh says he wants to look at what I'd consider to be an image of abuse. Knowing this poor woman's back story, he still wants to see her tits.

If another poster put this what would you say? Does your dh know about the sexual harassment? If not, why not?

In my opinion a good man wouldn't be friends with people like this. If he insisted in keeping a passin acquaintance with them, he wouldn't bring them to the house to disrespect his wife. A good man wouldn't want to look at this pic because of its origins, and wouldn't want to look at porn with his mates in front of his wife. It's phenomenally disrespectful. if I'd spent the day cooking and cleaning to make the house a nicer environment for my family I'd expect praise and love from my dh, not belittlement.

If he truly is a good man he should be strong enough to stand up to his mates on behalf of his wife and the mother of his children and even this poor woman who he doesnt know who has had her life fucked through this shitty behaviour.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 10:01:41

No, he doesn't kick off. He doesn't mention anything, even when asked because his mum raised him to think men are not interesting to women and women don't want to know anything about them. He tries to ignore/avoid things that piss him off and eventually they build up and he'll snap and do something selfish that is mean.

OpheliaPayneAgain Sat 24-Nov-12 10:02:18

Pointless having an arguement over it. State you point "X is a perve, he asked for pictures of me in the bath, I don't feel comfortable with him in my house". End of discussion.

Your husband sounds very weak.

O/T this woman in the photos? Is it a 'real' person? by that I mean is it someone on the peripherals of your social circle or is it a 'stock' photo from 'readers wives' that is circulating? Is it an urban myth? Or is it a real story is what I'm driving at.

crazily so did the teachers and even though he left the school in July, even he got texted it.

This bloke is a teacher? Oh joy of joys.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 10:02:39

Handbag - I know sad

shinyblackgrape Sat 24-Nov-12 10:05:13

This is awful. My DH has got one friend who can get a bit drunk and loud and obnoxious. DH just tends to see him in boys' nights out - fair enough.

But I know as a fact that if any of Dzh's friends ever sent me a text asking fir a naked photo, DH woukd never speak to them again.

You do not have to put up with this shit just to appease Dh and make an effort and it is totally unreasonable for him to expect you to. Tell DH he can continue to see this man (if he must) but he is not coming in to your house and you are not meeting him out with. Ignore anymore texts he ever sends you and do not respond.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 10:06:00

It isn't readers wives thing. He used to live and work in London I have never met any of his workmates or been to his school and don't know anyone involved even superficially and neither does dh. His old school is the school she moved to to get away from the pic but it has followed her.

Dh knows about the perving. I don't keep secrets from him.

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 10:07:30

Offred it's never too late. Wait till kids not about and then tell him he should never ever behave like that Again and if he does he will see a different side to you and you will really embarrass him.
Tell him the mate needs to stay away for a bit until he can aplogise for bringing such vile stuff into your and the children's home.
Failing that tell him he asked for naked pictures of you,see how funny he finds that.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 10:08:48

Dh, doesn't show or admit to being bothered by the perving btw but that's no indication of his real feelings.

Do feel a bit conned having only just realised dh has been covering up his feelings for our whole relationship and marriage without me really fully realising.

shinyblackgrape Sat 24-Nov-12 10:08:58

Just seen your other post. Do. It be acting as social secretary for this pair.

Hopefully if you don't facilitate meeting, then it will happen less.

You need to have a very frank discussion with your DH and point out to him that this is completely unaceptable and it's sad you are having to actually point this out to him. Your husband. The father of your children.

Do not let him derail the conversation or treat this as a joke. Use the broken record technique.

Leverette Sat 24-Nov-12 10:09:25

Everything Handbag said.

If he hasn't processed the view of himself that his mother left him with, he will continue to act out rather than function as a mature, thoughtful adult. The danger is that he will make/take opportunities to feel powerful (often in sly secretive ways or with 'ganging up').

Has he ever had any therapy?

Offred, I've seen that you've given posters on here good advice - what would you say to me if I had written your OP?

It sounds like a situation I'd have found myself with my first husband - that the friend was trying to provoke you and your DH was putting his friend's feelings above your own so that maybe you felt a bit ganged up on but were trying to keep the peace for your DH's sake.

I understand that you're cross with yourself now. I would be too. I guess you need to have a think about how much of yourself you're willing to suppress in order to keep things between you and your DH on an even keel, especially as you say you're having a stressful time.

It's not easy, I know. Can your DH say or do anything to make you feel better? If the answer is no, then I'd be wondering if I could sustain this relationship long term.

X-posted with lots - sorry!

OpheliaPayneAgain Sat 24-Nov-12 10:11:30

I have to be honest, if one of my husbands mates did anything like this (overt perving/flirting), and my husband sanctioned it by ignoring it after I had raised the issue, he wouldn't be my husband for much longer. Total disrespect for you, your feelings and it makes you feel vunerable in your home.

And yes to what Handbag said too.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 10:12:49

He hasn't had therapy, we've (i've) only recently (last month) connected the dots. His dad is/was misogynist, his mother has reacted to it by teaching her children that men are insignificant to and not required by women.

I don't know whether he can say stuff to make me feel better. I think committing to sorting out this stuff that makes him unable to assert himself maybe.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 10:14:37

And if he did that I feel like I can't really guarantee I would stay with him because he might be a different person at the end.

Leverette Sat 24-Nov-12 10:22:15

How sad for him that his mother projected her feelings about her husband onto her son, instead of raising him to be a valued and self respecting person in his own right.

He will always have big problems respecting others when he doesn't know what respecting himself feels, looks and sounds like.

He wouldn't be a different person - he'd be a healthier, more rounded, better version of himself. It could be a really exciting thing for the two of you to work on; although change is usually scary and your relationship would change as a result.

HandbagCrab Sat 24-Nov-12 11:14:03

Offred I'm sure you know that growing up in an abusive household isn't an excuse to be abusive yourself. A reason for behaviour patterns, but not an excuse. I'm sure you also know that your dh has to seek therapy or other help himself, commit to it himself and make the changes himself. You cannot do it for him or even organise it for him. You can assert you want him to do it and support him if he does but I don't think it's healthy for either of you for you to take responsibility for the changes he needs to make. Once he's done that then you may need to seek help as a couple if your relationship continues to have issues.

Does he acknowledge he has a problem and has articulated it himself or are you deciding this for him? The current stresses you are under are they a result of dsyfunctional relationships or something else?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 11:27:06

I know. It's a thing I've identified and brought up. I know, I know sad

He is being proactive at being himself around me now, think that may be why that happened because he has let go of worrying about pissing me off but not his mate.

His mate is insignificant to me (now). It is how he is that's the problem. His friend has a lot of good points which do not make up for shithead sexism in any way but those are the reasons they are friends and why I have been. I've also been educating him a little about sexism and women and wonder if he was deliberately trying to piss me off after going a bit far with the texting, either way, irrelevant.

Dh has a break from on call today, we were meant to spend a family day which is now ruined because he's making my skin crawl.

Stress is big two's dad who is considering letting dh adopt them because he intends not to give a fuck ever and dcs are REALLY upset.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:14:32

And I know growing up with anything negative is not an excuse to repeat it as a parent. I've worked really hard to try and overcome my own issues from this perspective. sad feel rotten with this cold too...

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:21:45

Offred, I don't like your husband

What is it they say about birds of a feather flocking together ?

Your H is one of those people that shares naked photos without consent and he flaunted that fact in front of you

And you spend time trying to make things nice for him ? What are you thinking ?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:24:05

No, AF he's one of those people who looks at it when it is held up in front of him, but I'm not sure why. I don't know whether he would share it if he was texted it, I'm not confident he wouldn't.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:25:28

I am feeling ill and not up to more difficulty. I suppose ATM I am thinking he is one of those men who doesn't object to horrible sexual abuse of women. sad

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:25:56

Looking is sharing, whether he "passes it on" or not. And the fact he flaunted it in front of you, knowing how you feel about it, says a lot about him...none of it good.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:26:53

I suppose ATM I am thinking he is one of those men who doesn't object to horrible sexual abuse of women.

I concur

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:27:39

I know none is good but to be fair it was more a case of having it shoved right into his face by arsehole friend but still, it happened as a result of his lack of objection and his baiting comment which is what I'm upset by.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:30:28

It is of extreme importance to me that he is a man who does object. If he can't do that then I will have to choose and I hope I could make a good choice.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:30:54

< shrugs >

Moral weakness is no justification. He's a grown man, not a teenager hamstrung by peer pressure.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:31:58

cross posted there

my <shrug> was not in response to your distress in any way at all

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:32:03

You are right, he does behave like a teenager hamstrung by peer pressure.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:32:34

Ha! I know AF.smile

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:34:10

Do you think by half-killing yourself to make the house nice, making yourself STFU about your normal and natural responses to shit behaviour, putting up with his objectionable friends and so on, is going to improve that situation ?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:36:29

No, it isn't. I thought it might help him feel like he was loved and he mattered to me.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:37:29

That's why it's so shit because the outcome is total disrespect of me and what matters to me.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:39:43

And he repaid that care and concern by taking the piss out of you with his arsehole friend? Epic fail, there.

Someone upthread asked if you had shown your H the texts from said "friend" pestering you for pics in the bath. Did you ? How would your H feel if it was pics of you this "friend" were to circulate for cheap laughs ?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:41:01

Offred, there is a massive argument here for not changing who you are for another person.

Especially one undeserving of such efforts

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:41:04

Because before this last thing (last thread I posted) I took the approach that he was an adult and had to sort himself out and when I realised he wasn't I felt really shit for what I realised had been total walking all over him that he had kept secret and felt bad about.

It is all my own decisions...

I do feel quite alone in this relationship where he has no emotional input.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:41:52

if being yourself is enough to rock the rails of your relationship, then what does it tell you

you can't keep up the Stepford wife act forever

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:43:05

No, I didn't show him, he works away on Thursdays so we don't normally talk to each other until fri night and friend was there. If we had then I doubt he would display any particular emotion about it...

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:43:14

I do remember your other thread(s) about your relationship with your H, btw

Then, as now, I wonder why such a sorted person puts up with such shit

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:44:52

Honestly? Because now I have 4 small children, I'm in the middle of a degree and I'm scared of the new benefits landscape. Mainly.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:45:19

It really doesn't fit into the Stepford mould of maintaining a relationship you are currently utilising, but tbh, the best thing you could have done is show your h those texts when his friend was there

You would have got a lot of information about where your H's loyalties lie if you had done that. What would you predict would have happened ?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:46:12

I haven't said "LTB" (yet) smile

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 13:47:02

He would choose me. Always.

However I would feel like I had manipulated the end of a really important friendship and also involved the perv in our relationship more than necessary.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 13:52:13

He would choose me. Always.

Would he have thrown said "friend" out of your house ? Or would he have laughed along with the idea that is was "just a bit of fun" ?

Are you going to show him those texts at all ? Because if you don't, you are complicit in perpetuating an unhealthy friendship. Yes, it's your H's choice to be friends with him...but you with-holding salient information is actually too much involvement. And will potentially backfire on you massively.

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 13:58:24

Offred as you know, I had very strong misgivings about your partner's behaviour on that other thread of yours. Is this the biker friend?

This triangular relationship has always been a toxic mix, in my view. Whatever happens in your marriage, as long as this man is in it playing a role - there will be trouble.

But his role is secondary to a much deeper problem IMO.

Your husband sounds weak, childish and without any moral compass of his own. To react like this in front of you suggests that his behaviour would have been ten times worse if you hadn't been there.

The reason he's got fuckwits for friends is that he either likes them just the way they are and agrees with their take on life, but pretends different views with you because it suits you and him for you to think he is different to them. Or he disagrees with them but will never articulate that. He might make a half-hearted attempt in front of you, but easily backs down even then.

If it was the latter, I think you'd have seen these friendships waning by now. Even for the most conflicted person, it's hard to maintain a split-self for any length of time and if he genuinely thought their views were offensive, he would by now have started to find them difficult company.

So my money's on the former. He aligns himself more to their views than yours, but hopes you won't realise that.

forgetmenots Sat 24-Nov-12 13:58:42

Offred, I've seen you give very good advice to other posters. I agree with AF. This thread makes me really sad, I can't believe your DH's friend was allowed back in your home after pestering you for naked pictures (except to grovel and apologise to you both). I also suspect this 'passing round of naked pictures' was a threatening manoeuvre on this 'friend's' part to show you what he does with pictures like that and as a reminder of the pictures he had asked you for. In your own home. In front of your DH. Without fear of reproach.

I find this unsettling and a bit menacing tbh and I'm disappointed in your DH. I'm not saying LTB thinking it maybe but there needs to be new boundaries - now. And this guy has to be on the other side of them, quite firmly.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 14:08:26

He did tell him to leave the last time he was an arse. I doubt I will show him the texts, but I will talk about them. The trouble is its not about the texts, or the friend, it's about dh.

I definitely think it is that he disagrees but is not a person who believes in challenging people who disagree and his relationships with them are extremely superficial, he doesn't talk to his friends about things. He is a person who is frightened of conflict.

His friendships have waned since he met me, a huge amount, this friend has just moved back up here.

I agree it is possibly a threatening move from the friend (yes biker friend) and I find it upsetting that he has recently been a really good friend to me and then behaved like that but I have cut out dh's friends for similar things before so it is quite unimportant.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 14:10:36

And there is no way in hell I would ever have sent any kind of picture of that kind to him ever and I feel angry that he might be so arrogant as to feel the need to put me off in that way.

forgetmenots Sat 24-Nov-12 14:14:58

No I think it's just him showing you and DH how he treats women, and it makes my skin crawl. You are right to say your DH's response and behaviour is your number one concern, I think there needs to be an evaluation of boundaries (for him and his friends). I genuinely think he could benefit from counselling but if not, you two need to have a serious discussion about what is acceptable. I feel for you, this is very difficult and not pleasant at all.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 24-Nov-12 14:17:28

Offred why don't you want to show DH the texts?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 14:24:43

Because it would then become about the texts and his friend and not about him potentially. I think we'd just end up having the wrong discussion surrounding analysis of the texts and not what he needs to do to stop destroying our relationship.

FairPhyllis Sat 24-Nov-12 14:30:02

The friend is revolting.

Your DH is either spineless and immature and puts his friends over you, or he has the same view of women as the friend. Either way, he refuses to engage in your relationship. What are you getting out of the relationship?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 24-Nov-12 14:30:44

Ah, ok. I was confused by the fact that you wanted to talk about the texts but not show them, but I can see you want the focus to be DH's position, not the friend's.

What outcome do you want, do you think? Friend not to come round, DH not to see friend at all, DH to not side with friend over you...?

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 14:31:50

What do you mean by the friend being arrogant enough to put you off in that way?

Put you off him?

Why is that even an issue?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 24-Nov-12 14:41:52

Charbon I read that as "put Offred off her stride" or something similar.

Lueji Sat 24-Nov-12 14:58:22

Offred, I know you need to get your head sorted about this, but you have to explain your feelings about last night to you OH.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 15:08:27

Charbon - that I think he may be blaming me for his inappropriateness and is trying to be an arse to put me off him in his arrogant world where I am the problem and not him.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 15:09:32

I agree those are the two interpretations of last night btw, which is shit.

forgetmenots Sat 24-Nov-12 15:19:09

sad this is shit, Offred.
Are you going to sit and talk to him? (Common one but would showing him the thread help?)

ivykaty44 Sat 24-Nov-12 15:25:14

amarylisnightandday

I used to think it was exp friends that were the problem. I was deluded. It was just him. He chose to keep that company.

nothing so blinding as love

Op sorry to say but your OH is the issue. he chooses to look at photographs past on to all and sundry out of spite and hatred and gained from immoral ways - as I read it the friend of your oh received the nude photo by text.

Remove this type of behaviour from your life

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 15:29:28

I think some of your behaviour involving this man does need scrutinising Offred. He is deeply manipulative and unfortunately some of your responses towards him have played right into his hands.

The only reason I can see for other friendships of your husband's waning is one of proximity. If they all moved to where you are, he would be no different with them than he would be with this one, who is hopefully the worst his friendship circle has to offer.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 15:57:44

I should be able to behave how I like towards the friend (within reason) though without him being such a dick. I posted the exact same thing on Facebook as I had said in that text on thurs. What I said or didn't say/did or didn't do is exactly the wrong issue in my mind. That is exactly the kind of thing I think it would be pointless to get into since I don't behave differently towards the friend than anyone else. I found him attractive for a while but have always shut down his perviness whenever it has crossed the line into that.

Nothing would make me feel attracted to him now in any superficial way I ever was before. I find some other people attractive too; so shoot me, doesn't give them the right to speak down to me or try and bait me to send them pervy pics, I think everyone can see that is very inappropriate. So whilst I think I can see what you're saying charbon, that is something I see as a private issue I need to address with myself and not something it's be advisable for me to discuss with dh.

He can read the texts any fb messages I've ever sent if he wants but I don't think it is the issue.

I don't think it is proximity as far as his friendships go because his friends are evenly split between up here and down there. Lots of the ones from here he saw more often when he lived down there than he does now and he does have a nice friend up here who he meets regularly but still doesn't meet the others. Especially one who i argued with once and he actively avoids her now. This guy is his best friend and has been for decades so it is quite specific to him.

Think half the problem is this triangle where they want me to go away so they can be friends but arrange to come in my house with me but then are mean to me.

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 16:09:35

Offred none of us are islands where our own behaviour happens in a vacuum.

It's not the first time by a long chalk that this man has behaved inappropriately towards you but your toleration and occasional encouragement of it (by your I mean you and your husband incidentally) has been received as a message that it is okay to continue and ramp it up.

The first time he behaved like that should have seen a much stronger reaction from the pair of you.

You're not responsible for the behaviour, only your response to it. The same goes for your husband.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 16:12:46

offred...I am not sure I understand

are you saying there is or has been something between you and this friend of your H's ?

it might explain your reluctance to show your H the texts, and also why you were allowing BikerTwat to trample all over your boundaries by harassing you for naked pics

it may also be the reason for him to show your H naked pics of other women right in your face...he is pushing you for a reaction

are you telling us everything ?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 16:30:24

I'm not saying I'm an island but I'm also not seeing where you've got tolerance and occasional encouragement either.

I don't tolerate it. The first thing meant he was asked to leave when he said "imagine what it'd be like if we'd got together that night?" In front of dh and I was upset and I avoided him for a while (months). Dh doesn't want to have to choose between me and his best friend so i gave it another go after discussion with other friends.

My mistake was the point where I decided he was not an idiot, because clearly he is an idiot. Also where i decided not to curtail my bog standard approach to all people which is quite flirty. I think also probably actually confronting a lot of this stuff with him and establishing a friendship when i should have stuck with the first approach.

I'm choosing now to believe he is how he behaved last night and not how he has been for the last few years which is flirty but not at all like this although this behaviour is not unusual for him and people say "oh he's harmless" about it. I'm sure I would have behaved differently towards him (carried on avoiding him) if I had thought that way (perv/sexist) about him all along but I don't think it is fair to call me treating him exactly the same as all my other friends (perhaps even much more guarded than with others) tolerating and encouraging his sexism/perviness. Although admittedly I find dealing with that kind of behaviour quite hard.

Especially when a lot of the discussions we've had have been about sexual abuse/harassment and he understands perfectly well how I feel about him, about his perviness (which I told him was pervy last night and many other times) and other more general issues.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 16:35:05

There hasn't been something anymore than there has been something between me and my best friend who I also find attractive and flirt with or anyone else I socialise with and flirt with BUT this guy is long term single and i think he has form for being fixated on the most inappropriate woman possible. He has told me before he wanted to kiss me when he was drunk but he has said that to every female in the friendship group and they have all told me, including dh, that's just how he is and not to take it seriously.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 16:37:52

You mean this is a quadrangle not a triangle ?

I must be very boring and have very uncomplicated friendships, that is for sure, because I just don't get all this boundary-crossing going on.

It seems like a smokescreen masking the real issue...your H is a sexist nob just like his mates.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 16:41:09

Ok, so fine have tolerated a lot of it since i decided to stop avoiding him and i have in a lot of ways become the facilitator for his and dh's friendship but down to what i think was misinterpretation of him rather than anything.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 16:49:42

Are you going to carry on "facilitating" it whilst ignoring your own needs ?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 16:51:11

No, categorically not. I have just had a small talk with dh to that effect.

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 16:53:40

Offred thats awful, can't believe your DP let him disrespect you so much sad

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 16:54:01

hope the talk went okay

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 16:54:02

Also told him about texts btw and how I think they're connected to how he was last night. Dh says he was annoyed by how he was. We have to go out now but will ask him later why he wasn't able to say (properly) he was annoyed by it to him at the time.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 16:57:47

Good plan. And don't let him off the hook. I hope your H comes to his own conclusion that Bikertwat is not a good person to have around.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:00:46

No, it's not a quadrangle, if anything more like a many pointed star in that I engage in minor flirting with almost everyone unless I'm ranting at them. grin

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:01:36

You don't flirt with me angry

Fuckitthatlldo Sat 24-Nov-12 17:01:48

So this guy and your husband were giggling over a naked photo of a woman taken without her permission and distributed around her work place, causing her to have to leave her job and move? Are they fourteen? And isn't sharing this photo illegal?

Seriously Offred I find that really horrifying. I don't have a male partner (and every time I come onto Mumsnet I thank my lucky stars for that) but this would be a deal breaker for me if I did meet someone and they behaved like this. I'd think they were a total dick, you know? And a nasty misogynist to boot.

shinyblackgrape Sat 24-Nov-12 17:02:15

Sorry - just catching up and I'm confused too.

Have you been flirting with him? It seems from your post that your likening him to your best friends who you have flirted with?

shinyblackgrape Sat 24-Nov-12 17:02:55

That's good DH is now annoyed.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:07:41

I don't know you in real life AF, but I would if I did, I also find your online persona attractive so you may well be one of my "something"s if I did... <creep> grin

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:10:08

Yes, fuckthat, I think although it sounds like an excuse that the reason I'm not mad like that with dh is because he is stupid and unassertive and people pleasing and "bikertwat" literally shoved the phone right in his face.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:13:47

I flirt with everyone in social situations, always have. Sometimes worry about the things charbon suggests because of it but it is learned behaviour in adolescence I find hard to undo. I don't proposition people, ask for naked pictures, talk about "what might have been"or any other creepy thing...

joblot Sat 24-Nov-12 17:14:17

I don't want to piss on your chips but flirting is not good and gives mixed messages. I had a gf who flirted lots and it was seriously horrible, felt disrespectful of me

HandbagCrab Sat 24-Nov-12 17:14:56

Have fun wherever you're off offred.

From what youre saying you seem to be blaming yourself partly for all this mess because you are flirty.

I personally don't think this is the problem. However, if you feel it is contributing then you can change your behaviour and not be so flirty. It might be a defence mechanism (projects). If alcohol plays a part then maybe don't drink around twatty people who take advantage of your good nature and flexible boundaries (takes own advice smile )

I did think about this a bit and I see you say it is you that has concluded that your dh's behaviour is due to his misandrist (sic) mum. From how you are presenting what he's done I think he's firmly in the misogynist camp I'm afraid. His friends repeated behaviour back this up. I hope you can decide best what you want to do smile

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:15:37

ha !

< feels a bit scared >

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:18:10

Ha indeed! Stupid somethings nothings

ProphetOfDoom Sat 24-Nov-12 17:20:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Sat 24-Nov-12 17:21:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:24:42

matilda, my H is just like you describe

he would say, when faced with a phone shoved in his face in this way, "isn't it time you grew up, mate, I don't want to see it and neither should you"

it's not difficult...when you are a grown-up, and have an ounce of self-respect

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:42:01

Just at MIL's for tea. If I banned the friend from around me dh would just comply with that.

I am not a disrespectful flirter I don't think and really I haven't actually changed since marriage so it'd be a bit tough if dh was just pretending to be ok with it and wasn't actually.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 17:43:04

Think AF has it - he isn't particularly grown up about relationships and he has zero self-respect.

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 17:59:28

The big difference here is that you have been attracted to him in the past - and he knows it.

I think this manipulative man is playing both you and DH like fiddles. He knows that you fancied him and have difficulty telling people who behave badly to fuck off - and he knows that your husband is a people-pleaser with some of the same tendencies. I think he sees this as a game that he enjoys and every so often, he'll ramp it up to see how far he can play you both.

This is a different problem to the one you've got in your marriage and with your husband though, Offred. This thread, together with the secret punishment stuff in the last one, are worth reading side by side I think.

I also think you might be downplaying DH's reaction as the thread has gone on. It seems to have gone from him willingly looking at the phone and indicating with enthusiasm that he still wanted to see the picture - to him being the victim of having a phone shoved in his face. Others have described a more appropriate response, with which I heartily agree.

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 18:00:37

And for this to mean anything, any 'banning' has got to come from your husband, not the Mother he is casting you in the role of.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 18:26:31

It is only different in that he is an arse, some other friends are people I've actually had relationships with and don't behave like arses like this.

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 18:27:45

I don't do banning.

Dh's comment invited looking at it but it was immediately shoved in his face.

I wonder if it was meant to make me pissed off with dh rather than him...

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 18:39:01

And to make it so that dh chose him over me on something important <meddler>

Charbon Sat 24-Nov-12 19:10:10

I should have made it clear that the 'difference' was between this situation and the one the previous poster was describing.

The 'banning' comment was picking up on your own assertion that if you banned the friendship, your H would 'comply'.

Offred this man's behaviour towards you has always been arse-like, from what you've posted. I just don't understand why he has been given any agency by either your husband or you since he first behaved like that.

Yes I'm sure his behaviour was designed to show you just how spineless your husband really is, but that doesn't alter the fact that he is spineless, does it?

Offred Sat 24-Nov-12 19:18:59

No quite right charbon it doesn't alter it.

Yes he has been an arse fairly regularly. I should stick with my judgement over other people's.

Yes, I think the same thing about him complying and how pointless that would be. It'd just be doing what I said.

Offred Mon 26-Nov-12 17:14:25

Have talked. At him.

<sigh> he said he thinks he just thinks when bikertwat is like this it is so ridiculous that he can't possibly mean it and it must be a joke. He says some of his other friends joke similarly and he does feel uncomfortable but thinks they can't really mean it because it is ridiculous. confused

I said do you think what you really mean is you don't like confrontation and you do that laughing along in order to avoid finding out if they actually mean it or not.

He laughed and said probably.

I asked if he was aware this thing was much more serious than just crudeness and that it was abusive and illegal and that you would have to be totally and utterly bereft of any kind of respect for women or other people to actually genuinely find that photo funny and not absolutely offensive given that it had been used to absolutely ruin this woman's life, which is of a completely different level of significance to a bit of crudeness or perviness.

He did seem embarrassed which means he hadn't thought about it but he can see what I mean.hmm

He said he tried to join in with saying it wasn't on (which was true) but made out he was helpless in the face of it being thrust in his face. So I said no, you can't say that when what you actually said was "he he he, I didn't say that!" And that response gives me the impression that either you are giving me the impression you respect women when you don't to please me or you feel unable to express to your friends when they do something that crosses the line and that both those things make me feel afraid and that in that situation it was fairly pointless me shouting at bikertwat any more because he would have just taken it as "oh he's under offred's thumb I'll wait till she's not around next time"

He said maybe he should have shouted at him.

I said I don't think you are confrontational like that and I doubt you ever will be, I am the shouter. I think you need to find the way for you to assert yourself in a meaningful way rather in defence of me being pissed off.

I said it concerned me that he squashed all his feelings and that he didn't even talk to his friends nevermind his wife about his feelings.

He says he is afraid of letting his feelings out and what happens to them when they are out and he used to write to get them out but he feels like he needs to go off on his own to be able to write because he feels like he can't do anything else when he is looking after the children.

I said well we have four of them and that isn't a realistic possibility and you will have to find ways to be able to do things like writing while the children are around because they aren't going away any time soon. I suggested he try writing poems he said he isn't good at that so I said practice, he could maybe write feelings poems for the children which would also help them understand why he was grumpy when he was etc...

I said I think he has learned to be invisible to cope with his parents but that puts a pressure on me to cater for his needs without him talking about them and I don't want to have to guess.

He said yes he sees that.

Sigh and now I have had the day from absolute hell and actually just want to punch anyone who comes near me but children seem happy for the first time in two weeks at least!

AnyFucker Mon 26-Nov-12 18:35:24

Head applied to brick wall ?

It looks like it.

Offred Mon 26-Nov-12 19:52:39

A bit.

Charbon Mon 26-Nov-12 20:01:53

What do you make of all this then Offred?

Offred Mon 26-Nov-12 21:25:46

He needs to do something to pull his socks up. Have not mentioned any rules of social engagement with biker twat but I will be expecting him to raise that issue with me I suppose.

Everything has gone wrong today, unrelated to this, and we are meant to be in london visiting my sister this weekend so I have been more concerned fighting immediate fires today than thinking about this.

I don't feel happy, feel on the edge for a million reasons.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 26-Nov-12 21:38:59

Offred it's good you've brought it up with him. That's a start, sorry your day has been shit otherwise.

Charbon Mon 26-Nov-12 23:00:35

You know Offred this sounds more like a parent-child relationship than one between adults who are equal. It sounds like you're constantly having to instil a moral compass in him and his friends, which must be exhausting when you've got to do that job with four children, who should all be learning their own morals from both of you. Even the language you use is telling - you say he needs to 'pull his socks up' and although I agree that he does - that's an interesting choice of phrase given what I've observed about the possible parental dynamic in your relationship.

I can imagine that you sometimes want to retreat to a world of other adults where the difference between right and wrong is just a given - and you can relax and not feel you have to right wrongs (or rant as you say) about things that should be obvious.

It really must be exhausting and I wonder when you get the opportunity to laugh, have fun, enjoy conversations and step out of that parental role and just be Offred? Maybe that's where the flirting comes in? When in the parent ego state, people often go straight to the child state to find a balance. Whereas I suspect you'd prefer to have adult-adult relationships with the grown-ups in your life?

Offred Tue 27-Nov-12 07:49:58

That's quite revelatory, I do parent him. The flirty may be down to that yes. I will have to think on that. The big crisis incidentally has been down to me having to parent my parents (again) who were meant to be looking after my big two this weekend but I have had to draft my sister in at short notice because they just are not responsible or trustworthy.

Offred Tue 27-Nov-12 08:40:28

I am choosing my father and trying not to be my mother aren't I?

AnyFuckingDude Tue 27-Nov-12 10:07:11

She's bloody good, that charbon

Your DH's 'friend' is enjoying this immensely.

He has intentionally tried to stir up trouble between you and your DH.

And he has succeeded.

crabbyoldbat Tue 27-Nov-12 11:51:00

Offred, I've seen your name on here giving sensible advice many times, so I know you're a rational being. What Charbon says makes lots of sense, so I hope you can think of a way that you can use that to move forward (in whatever way you feel best)

On another tack, and I know you've already dismissed pervybloke as part of your underlying problem, but because what you said made me think that his behaviour is being normalised in your friendship group, I thought you might find this an interesting read: captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

Offred Tue 27-Nov-12 12:30:36

Dh is working from home today and has been sitting downstairs while twinkles play and pester. He is currently wiping a shitty arse. Normally he runs upstairs to the office and hides because he "can't do anything else when the dc are around". This is a good development. I'm having to cook emergency provisions unexpectedly for my sister when she stays this weekend so it is appreciated.

Offred Tue 27-Nov-12 18:29:39

Crabby - I have just read your link. Yes, the friends are apologising and therefore facilitating it however the women are not frightened or upset over him but jealous and competitive. I might let dh read it later.

bleedingheart Tue 27-Nov-12 18:57:42

That's a really thought-provoking link crabby thank you for posting it.
Offred I hope you sort this out, neither of you are expressing how you really feel out of either conditioning or a desire to be something you think the other wants. It's great not to argue if you aren't burning with resentment at the same time. And I agree you should be able to flirt if that is acceptable in your relationship but Bikertwat is not a safe person to do this with. Why is he texting you to make social arrangements? A text can be answered at any time do he could just as easily text your DH and wait. I am not victim blaming but being pragmatic. He is trying to hurt both of you by the sounds of things.

bleedingheart Tue 27-Nov-12 18:59:16

I admire you for staying so long with someone who doesn't express their feelings, that sounds a very lonely place to be.

Offred Tue 27-Nov-12 19:27:18

I think it was largely because I was parenting again blush. Dh doesn't make arrangements properly, he doesn't check with me about things or he has to check absolutely every tiny thing but forgets important things or he arranges things that are a pain in the arse even when I have explained they would be a pain in the arse. I organise our lives blush basically...

Like today he was working from home so he could take the car to be MOT'd which he had arranged and planned all on his own because I have nothing to do with the car, he'd told me in advance what was happening. He took the big ones to school on the way to drop off the car. At lunchtime I asked him when he had to pick up the car (this was around 1.45) and he said later on this afternoon because the mechanic was waiting for some parts so I said "ok, I have to go and pick up my medication because I have run out and get some extra food to make sure there are meals for the weekend so I will get the big ones in my bike but would have to come home via dr's and supermarket so I'm going to be gone for longer than just going to school if that's ok with you to be here while the babies sleep?"

I have to leave for school about 2.55. I was putting my trainers on at 2.38 and the babies were still asleep and he comes in saying he has arranged to pick up the car at 3.30.hmm

So I said "whhhhaaaaat? So you are wanting me to wake the babies up, clean their bottoms and get them into the bike by 2.55 and it is now 2.38 and you are telling me this now?!"

He said "oh were you expecting me to go for the big ones?" I was like "no! I was expecting to be able to leave the babies sleeping while I picked up the big ones in the bike and got my stuff but even the conversation that we had aside if you arrange to pick the car up at 3.30 for no particular reason that means you were intending not to mind the babies or pick the big ones up and you were expecting me to cart all four round everywhere by bike entirely unnecessarily?"

He said "oh... Well I can get the car now if you want, it is done" so I had to say "well will you be back by 2.55 if you want me to get the big ones?" He said "probably not". So I said "well can you not get the big ones and I'll take the babies to get the medicine and the food when they wake up which will probably be while you are gone? "And he said "yes..."

He makes everything so much more difficult and less organised if I leave him to sort it out so I just take it over and sort it out because it really is essential we are organised as a family of 6.

Offred Tue 27-Nov-12 19:32:09

He does have lots of good points too! grin honestly grin and his bad points are not earth shattering to me and are things he needs to sort out for his own happiness and sanity anyway.

Charbon Wed 28-Nov-12 00:14:36

I am choosing my father and trying not to be my mother aren't I?

Can you explain a bit more about this Offred?

If you mean that your father was weak and seemed to need organising and micro-managing and your mother did this, yes those roles often get replayed in children's adult relationships.

The interesting thing about the parent-child dynamic in adult relationships is that often, it is the child who is the most controlling and powerful one in the relationship. To outsiders and even to the couple itself, it looks just the opposite. However the child usually wields control and power in passive-aggressive ways and the rebellion is shown in many forms. Keeping secrets, 'forgetting' important information or tasks, undertaking tasks incompetently so they have to be re-done, having secret affairs or threatening friendships, engaging in secret habits or addictions, enacting power struggles with sex. The covert nature of these attacks on the relationship means that the maximum disruption is caused to a partner, without the true motive ever being discovered.

Offred Wed 28-Nov-12 09:12:26

No I mean my father uses childishness to abuse and control all of us and my mother is a denier and enabler of this.

My dh is quite immature in terms of life experience and also self awareness/regulation but not in terms of attitude or responsibility.

The situation with my parents is absolutely ridiculous and it is really unbelievable how they behave a lot of the time. DH is categorically not like my dad and I'm not like my mum but I think I must have chosen someone childlike in some ways because of modelling my parents. I think if he was unwilling to accept things were a problem or he did nothing about making them better he'd irritate me more than he does.

I think there is probably also an element of having been attracted by his closedness because I don't really want him to be like my parents who had all kinds of confusing and difficult emotions all the time when we were children so if he was happy to be reserved I was happy with that set up and the separation it allowed me to have. I'm pissed off to find out he isn't happy with that he just does it because he feels it is expected.

Charbon Wed 28-Nov-12 14:11:20

No I mean my father uses childishness to abuse and control all of us and my mother is a denier and enabler of this.

Is there any of that going on in your relationship Offred?

Is it possible that because your husband's childishness isn't experienced as problematically as your father's, you're much more likely to deny how much it controls you?

Offred Wed 28-Nov-12 15:27:33

I would say it controls me infrequently now but I have had a part in allowing that and it influences me more often. Until my last thread I enabled it by not explaining to him when he had upset me and often not questioning him when he did stupid things. On my last thread I mentioned about sucking it up because I was afraid he would react badly, he did react badly the first time at the start which I now think associated him with my dad and made me decide to suck it up so I didn't end up getting screamed at like my dad would do. His "bad" reaction was extremely minor in comparison and during a period of great stress and a lot of the talking we have done since I decided to challenge him about things has been productive.

What is problematic about things with my parents is they have a lot of expectations of me but I feel refuse to hear or respect me in any way. Challenging my dad results in an extreme explosion of rage and lots of horrible and unfair accusations in such an angry and continuous stream that if you do respond you have to shout and repeat yourself and he still does not take it in. My mum copes by saying one thing to me and a different thing to him which makes it worse.

I think I have changed my part in it by not expecting him to behave like my dad when I challenge him on childish behaviour and he is opening up, listening and making changes of his own accord too.

OohWhatAPalaver Wed 28-Nov-12 23:04:06

I think you're massively over analysing it.

This guy is chatting with you while you're in the bath and asking for pics.

You refuse.

He then pops up with a naked pick of someone else to make you jealous and encourage your compliance in the future.

I would stop talking to your husbands friends (especially ones you know are a bit 'pervy') while you're in the bath. It's not apologist or whatever to think that someone speaking to you while naked is very comfortable with you wink

As to the woman in the pics- disgusting story, but if you consent to another person taking pics of you naked in this day and age, you consent to them ending up on the web, getting passed around etc.

Sorry if I'm not within the rules of the opinions you want to hear.

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