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A Sex Question......

(400 Posts)
moonblushtomato Fri 23-Nov-12 22:18:40

DH has a bee in his bonnet (or underpants) that we are not having enough sex. Just wondered what the going rate is these days?
We are in on our early 40s, have been married for nearly 8 years and have 3DCs aged 15, 6 and 4.
btw we are averaging about once a week which I'm quite happy with.

AuntLucyInTransylvania Fri 23-Nov-12 22:22:03

That would be fine for me..

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 23-Nov-12 22:23:01

How much housework does he do?

Research shows that men who do more housework, have more sex.

Just sayin'

Also how good is it when you have it?

It doesn't matter what the going rate is, it's how often you want to do it and how you want to do it that matters.

ledkr Fri 23-Nov-12 22:27:46

What is it with these blokes who coldly announce this? If you want sex then seduce your woman with the same stuff that you did when you first did it. Personality,humour,nights out or in and basic bloody techniques.

AlreadyScone Fri 23-Nov-12 22:29:50

I agree with ledkr.

AnyFucker Fri 23-Nov-12 22:34:09

Men who make pronouncements like this think that once they are married the woman is there to service them sexually.

It's that mindset that needs acknowledging...not asking strangers on t'internet how often they have sex.

AuntLucyInTransylvania Fri 23-Nov-12 22:40:01

Humm. Some good points above..

TisILeclerc Fri 23-Nov-12 22:41:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ledkr Fri 23-Nov-12 22:45:40

If feel very turned off if dh discussed our lack of sex like choosing a school for the kids.
I'd be quite turned on if he arranged a night out or in, scrubbed up nicely and chatted easily to me showing interest in my life and paying me complements, reminiscing and making me laugh.

moonblushtomato Fri 23-Nov-12 22:50:02

Hmm, I agree with ledkr too! Feel a lot more up for it after a nice meal/evening together.
fastidia it is very good when we have it but most of the time I feel so tired when it gets to bedtime!
anyf interesting point about DH's mindset and I never think of you as strangers! More, supportive virtual friends smile

Tommy Fri 23-Nov-12 22:53:22

once a week?
blimey - what a lucky chap grin

ClippedPhoenix Fri 23-Nov-12 23:02:39

What has he done lately to make you "feel" loved and appreciated?

I tell you what OP if a man started moaning he wasn't getting enough like it should be "on tap" I wouldn't like to repeat what I'd say.

moonblushtomato Fri 23-Nov-12 23:08:53

Think I know what my response will be next time I'm knackered and he 's all frisky!
He does make me feel loved and appreciated, I just don't want sex as much as I did pre DC! I now prefer sleep and/or cuddles.

AmandaCooper Fri 23-Nov-12 23:14:34

Surely someone can tell their partner that they would like to have more sex without it meaning that they think their partner is only there to service them sexually?

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 23-Nov-12 23:18:01

So you're tired but he isn't?

Why isn't he tired?

If you're doing the same amount of work, you should be equally tired. So maybe he needs to do more so he's a bit more tired and you need to do less so you're not quite as tired.

And also agree with ledkr and AF re not expecting sex to be another domestic service.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Fri 23-Nov-12 23:22:33

OK, some people have higher libidos than others. It's not necessarily true that a man who would like to have more sex is a lazy, entitled, sexist tosspot though it usually is.

Once a week is pretty reasonable, though. Do you enjoy it when you do it? Or does it feel like 'Oh, saturday night, better open my legs so he doesn't sulk'?

ClippedPhoenix Fri 23-Nov-12 23:22:56

If your libido has altered then it has, tell him to stop pressurising you.

cronullansw Sat 24-Nov-12 02:35:23

Quote; AF Men who make pronouncements like this think that once they are married the woman is there to service them sexually.

Are you really making such a sweeping, sexist generalisation AF?

ClippedPhoenix Sat 24-Nov-12 02:40:27

are you really such a wanker cron?

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 07:09:09

I think people are assuming there's some backstory to this on the basis that OP is sufficiently concerned by it to start a Relationships thread - which is probably correct - but I don't agree that there's anything fundamentally sinister about a man, or woman, attempting an honest dialogue with their partner about their sex life.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Sat 24-Nov-12 08:53:52

I agree, Amanda. Even though most of the time a woman wants less sex than her partner it's because he's not doing his share of domestic work - and this has the effect of turning sex into what feels to the woman like another chore she's expected to perform for his benefit - sometimes it's a case of hormonal issues, health, or something else.

And it isn't wrong to talk to your partner if you are unhappy, as long as 'talking' isn't 'bullying and blaming'.

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 08:54:05

Not sinister but a bit clinical and IMO going about tackling it practically would be more effective.

Xenia Sat 24-Nov-12 09:21:55

Yes, why are you tired and he isn't? Also sex does not have to be carved out of sleep time. It could be 3 hours on Sunday afternoon when he's taken the children to his mother's or whatever and given you a long lie in to 11am.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 10:25:40

"men who" (behave in a certain way) and "all men" does not convey the same meaning, cronulla

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 11:32:32

I have said to DH before now that I would like us to have more sex; he has said he's too tired. Does this imply I think he's some kind of domestic sex appliance who's there to serve me sexually and/or that I don't pull my weight in the partnership?

spoonyfucker Sat 24-Nov-12 11:46:35

Amanda - good point.

ClippedPhoenix - I'm a man. Do you want to casually call me a wanker too ? Don't even wait for any rational explanation of my point of view - just go for it !

Projecting your own situation onto someone else, making assumptions and then lashing out is, after all, the foundation of counselling.

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 24-Nov-12 12:00:27

No it doesn't Amanda.

But your situation is not the OP's.

It's perfectly valid to ask the OP questions to explore why her DH is more keen on having sex than she is.

Particularly in a context where most women do more housework than most men (where they both live in heteronormative monogamous set-ups) and so it's one of the most likely causes.

OP can examine if that might be the case and if not, can move on to other causes.

Which might just be something as simple as libido etc., but it's perfectly reasonable to explore common causes.

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 12:09:38

No Amanda of course not but if I wanted more sex dh I'd do a lot more than have a chat grin he'd soon perk up ha ha

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 12:20:23

ledkr that's just offensive.

Fastidia that's not what I'm challenging - it was the "men who make pronouncements like this think..." - it's a generalisation and not based on anything in the OP.

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 12:23:52

Offensive? To say I'd seduce my own damn husband? Please explain

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 12:24:20

the thing is, Amanda, do you think that women come to this board when their relationships are still healthy ?

that they come ask perfect strangers for advice when it is still possible to talk to their partners in a constructive and fair-minded way ?

or is it much more likely they have tried all that and it isn't working, for some reason ?

OP hasn't told us any fact she has told us very little at all. So, people put their own spin on it to fill that void. Of which you are just as guilty as the next poster.

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 12:27:20

The implication being that if I behaved differently he would "perk up" without any need for discussion.

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 12:30:26

No AF I acknowledged in my first post that in the context of this thread on the Relationships board there was likely to be some back story. That does not justify "all men who say they want more sex think their wives are domestic appliances" (I paraphrase). I haven't generalised, I've just offered an alternative view - having already said it probably doesn't apply in the OP's case.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sat 24-Nov-12 12:34:20

I think perhaps that's an assumption AF. Some women will come on here with healthy relationships. Relationships can be challenging, it doesn't mean they are always unhealthy. Some posters come on here with dreadful partners, but certainly not all.
I occasionally say to my husband I'd like us to have more sex but sometimes life just gets in the way. Doesn't mean my relationship is unhealthy.

We do have to be careful not to make assumptions or generalisations.

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 12:35:02

I'm still not sure why that's offensive ,that's exactly what I meant btw I believe the best way to a healthy sex life is more actions less chat. Make no apology for that sorry. It's always worked for us. Dh has just finished nights so not seen him al week. Intend to have a really nice evening together tonight dinner wine and a catch up. I feel that will lead to a natural conclusion.

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 12:41:58

What so do I need better dinner? Better wine? What are you doing right that I'm doing wrong?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 12:46:42

We need op to come back, don't we ? smile

Xenia Sat 24-Nov-12 12:49:10

I suspect it's more about differences in how much people of either sex want it than just the dinners etc If AC wants more and she doesn't get it look at what is causing that. Is he over weight? Does he drink a lot? Is he working too long hours?

Xenia Sat 24-Nov-12 12:50:24

There is always the Woody Allen film quotes on this too...

How often do you sleep together?

Do you have sex often?

Hardly ever. Maybe three times a week.

Constantly! I'd say three times a week.
Like the other night, Alvy wanted to have

ledkr Sat 24-Nov-12 12:58:17

Never said you were doing it wrong I said what I had found to be more effective in my opinion. If you prefer to ask for it then do so. And not better wine or food just setting a romantic mood when not the norm with 5 dc and full time jobs or is that offensive too?
I find the idea of a sit down chat about sex a little cold v the old fashioned way.

AmandaCooper Sat 24-Nov-12 12:58:34

That's exactly it, it's just mismatched libido. It can be challenging and occasionally it can help to talk it through, even if that doesn't result in more/less sex it can keep the relationship strong. People reading this thread shouldn't be afraid to communicate their needs, as long as they do it in a sensitive way.

Kundry Sat 24-Nov-12 13:19:51

Amanda I think you've hit on the answer in that you acknowledge that some couples will have mismatched libidos and the normal thing to do would be to talk about it, think about reasons (one person doing too much and being tired, changes in libido after children for example) and see what they can change or compromise on. Which is what you are doing.

However someone wheedling on about once a week not being enough when the other partner is dealing with babies, breastfeeding, doing all the housework is not a likely way to improve the situation. But over and over again, someone posts on here that their DH thinks that whinging whilst grabbing their breasts or suggesting a BJ is the way to communicate. Or worse, having a go while they are asleep. It's depressing and says a lot about the DH in question.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Sat 24-Nov-12 17:04:19

But we don't know what the OP's H is doing. SHe hasn't been back. The way the OP was worded could imply that the H is concerned about whether they are within the 'normal' range of sexual behaviour (some people worry an awful lot about this). or he could be worrying that she's gone off him as she's less keen on sex.

And people do sometimes post on this board, not because they are in despair, but because they want to know more about a subject - they joined MN and got loads of useful advice on nappies and Greggs sausage rolls and sleb gossip, so they are in the habit of going 'Hoy! MN Hivemind! What do you reckon?' about anything that occurs to them.

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:09:15

I have said to DH before now that I would like us to have more sex; he has said he's too tired. Does this imply I think he's some kind of domestic sex appliance who's there to serve me sexually and/or that I don't pull my weight in the partnership?

Me too. It was only yesterday I said I'd like more sex! It doesn't mean I see him as an object only there to suit my sexual needs confused

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 17:26:26

DH and I have sex about 3-4 times a week, but he will also wake me up by having sex with me. Sometimes he gets horny in the night, so will take my night pants down and do it!

so we usually have to a few more times then that!

Xenia Sat 24-Nov-12 17:29:16

Do women wear pants in bed? You learn something every day on mumsnet.

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:29:57

I think she means PJ bottoms?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:31:02

slllllloooooomee, I don't like the sound of your husband

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:33:01

My abusive ex used to do that to me. I was on medication which meant I slept heavily. The only time I'd know about it is when he'd be bragging to his mates about 'shagging her in her sleep' sad

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 17:35:55

i do know about it, but only because it wakes me up. sorry, yes i ment pj bottoms!!

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:37:09

Are you happy to be woken up in this way ? Every single time ? At what point do you wake ? Caressing, nuzzling ? Or penetration before you are fully wet ?

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 17:42:16

some times it is annoying because i was having a lovely sleep but then i have to get up to clean up after!! depends, he doesnt caress or nuzzle me he usually just pulls my bottoms down and rubs some lube on me ( i suffer from vaginal dryness) and then has sex with me. so i sometimes wake when he pulls down my pants if it cold, or when he is penetrating me.

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:43:46

Oh god sad

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:44:27

Slloooome don't you realise how wrong that is? Its sex without consent. He is using your sleeping body as a sex toy.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:45:14

That is sex without consent. Or, to give it it's legal definition, rape.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 17:50:04

it is not rape! i dont mind, just can be irritating when i then have to get up to clean up after.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:53:16

I think you will find, by definition, it is rape.

I understand you don't want to think your husband is raping you, but he is.

I suggest you buy him a Blow Up Doll with orifices for him to wank into for Xmas. Then you can get some kip.

nellyjelly Sat 24-Nov-12 17:55:37

Once a week..... My DH would count himself lucky!

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 17:55:43

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Newshoesplease Sat 24-Nov-12 17:57:14

Yes, bless him. It's adorable really- like a horny mutt. How romantic.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 17:57:16

You are on a wind up. No-one is that stupid, surely.

Newshoesplease Sat 24-Nov-12 17:58:28

Agreed af

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:58:58

slooomeee - please start respecting yourself. His 'needs' are not so great that he has to rape you. And yes, it is rape as you cannot consent as you are unconcious. It doesn't matter if you consent after. You need to do so before. This is not right and it isn't normal.

It makes me so sad because my ex did it to me, and at the time I thought it was normal and okay. It isn't.

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 17:59:16

I think its a windup but didn't want to say

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:00:20

i have always found you to be very rude anyfucker. why are you calling me stupid? this is how my marriage works. he gets very jealous and upset at the thought of me with previous partners, and having sex with me, sort of helps him remember i am his.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 18:00:23

Reported to HQ and not engaging any further.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:01:50

i guess that consent is implied because it has been ok every other time he has done it.

i suppose if after the first time i had told him that i didnt want him to do it then he would not do it again.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:03:02

i am a regular on here! why had you reported me? because you dont like how my marriage works?

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 18:03:16

Me and AnyFucker have had our disagreements but I wouldn't say she is rude, she's just straight forward smile

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 18:03:43

Sillooome - please please just have a think about it

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:04:06

how is calling me stupid NOT rude?

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 18:05:41

how is what he is doing not rape?

Perception maybe.

Newshoesplease Sat 24-Nov-12 18:07:52

You're happy for someone to penetrate you while you're asleep, but you take great offence at getting called "stupid" on an Internet forum? I would take a step back and reevaluate some aspects of your life.

<wanders off to another thread>

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:09:04

it is not just someone, he is my husband!

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 18:09:22

Being your husband does not give him the right to do that.

Whiteworm Sat 24-Nov-12 18:19:19

Seriously men are a joke. My DP complains we dont have sex. But he asks me if I fancy it in the same way he would ask me if I want a cup of tea. When I say you need to put more effort in (like when we first got together) he might get a better response. He says what is the point you'd only say no. Well then it is a viscious circle.
We average once every 3 months ( I work FT and we have a toddler and I run the house and on anti deps, which kill a sex drive) It goes in one ear and out the other. I wish I could get through that the more effort couples put in the more they would get out of more sex.

My DP used to make me feel like the sexiest most beautiful girl alive...7 years ago. Now sex is somehow is all about him and his needs. It isn't just me, I have spoken to close friends over a bottle of wine and it is not uncommon.

There is one thing where I do see his frustration though...In the past he has asked if I fancy it (yeah as romantic as that) and I say no, I need to have a bath, or no I have just had a bath. He doesn't get that at all.

I wish men would realise with women it starts in their head not between their legs. The couples with the best sex lives make an effort with each other. I have a friend who has been married ten years and they have it loads. Her husband idolises her and they have defined roles. However it hasn't always been that way especially when their kids were babies and pre-shcool age.

I love my DP but in a lot of ways he has yet to grow up. He thinks a snog means sex is on the agenda. Maybe I would want sex if he made me feel special (i have very low self esteem). I live in hope!! smile

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:19:44

no but i let him do it because it helps him feel closer to me. thank you for being sweet GhostShip, unlike some. He has been very wonderful to me, my saviour almost! he is my life and i love him, so allowing him to have sex me when he wants is no big deal.

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 18:24:00

"Not having enough sex"? Enough for who, him? Or not enough because he thinks everyone else is doing it twice nightly?

And bollocks to "going rate." You should have the sex you want, not the sex you think you should be having because of the perceived idea that you think everyone else is having more. What others do has nothing to do with your own sex life. It doesn't change it.

NanFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 18:26:46

Sllloooomee - the fact that what you have said is so sad that people think you must be a troll must tell you something surely?

Please just think about what is being said, please. He puts lube on you and shoves his cock up you... and he's treating you differently to a rubber doll how?

Your posts have made me feel sick and very very sorry for you sad

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 18:28:17

siloome I just want you to know you're worth more than some man who is using you when youre sleeping for sex. It makes me sad it really does. I hope he treats you well in every other aspect.

Whiteworm Sat 24-Nov-12 18:29:31

What JustFabulous said is true. It can also be quality over quantity....

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 18:32:08

And please don't think you 'owe' him sex. It doesn't work like that x

"allowing him to have sex whenever he wants"

What about what you want?

It concerns me that your husband gets himself so angry thinking about you with previous partners that he feels the need to "mark you as his property" whilst you are sleeping.

I find it very hard to believe you think it's ok, but if this is actually a wind up, it's in very very poor taste, considering women on this forum have had, sadly, the experience of being raped by their partner in the middle of the night.

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 18:38:40

sllloooomee - I have had teary eyes and a shocked face from many sad things I have read on MN but your posts have done both in equal measures.

Your husband doesn't have the right to ever have sex with you actually and certainly not without express permission from you. What he is doing is disgusting and the equivalent of a dog pissing up a wall to marks its territory.

You have put up with him taking advantage of you in the past but you can tell him now, tonight, it stops and he must not ever do it again.

I had sex before I met my DH. He doesn't feel the need to reclaim me everytime he remembers I have slept with someone else. Most man don't.

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 18:39:52

men, not man.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 18:42:06

ghostships, he does treat me very well. He is the kindest most lovely man ever, he loves me and looks after me.

no I don't think I owe him sex. But he enjoys it and i enjoy him enjoying himself.

going to leave this thread now, it is quite upsetting to think that some you, however well meaning, think that my lovely DH is raping me.

thank you most of you for being nice.

Whiteworm Sat 24-Nov-12 18:50:23

I think men "need" sex more than women or at least that is what we are led to believe. That we have to be attractive etc. Men are more visually stimulated. Just look at the young girls trying to bag footballers.

I have gone along with sex to make DP happy before, so have a lot of women. I have a friend who says her DP is a nightmare if he hasn't had sex and so she will make a big effort dressing up for him and afterwards he treats her like a princess for days. So she gives him what he wants and gets what she wants in return. I dont agree with that but it works for them.

I have also woken up to find DP attempting to have sex with me. He was asleep to a degree and not remembered. So I don't class it as rape. If I had shouted no he would have stopped. But I just shrug him off and he goes back to sleep none the wiser.

TheReturnOfBridezilla Sat 24-Nov-12 18:54:52


JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 18:57:20

Men really don't need sex more than women in the very general sense you stated it. Seriously. It was a ploy to get into your pants!

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sat 24-Nov-12 19:08:45

Sllloooomee, my heart is beating faster because I feel so anxious for you. I'm not going to assume you are anything but telling the truth.
You're not stupid, but the other posters are right, this is rape. It may not be rape in a way you recognise but that doesn't change the facts.

It's abhorrent to me that he behaves this way with so little respect for you. Sex is about intimacy, love and pleasure. Not just his but yours too, it should be a shared experience, not just him taking ownership of you.

Have you talked to friends in RL about this? It may help you to get some perspective.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sat 24-Nov-12 19:12:14

Jesus, this thread is disturbing.

alistron1 Sat 24-Nov-12 19:22:39

How can anyone enjoy having sex with a sleeping/unresponsive partner? Sorry sllooomee, but what your DH is doing isn't an act of love, it's an act of power/control.

Apocalypto Sat 24-Nov-12 19:57:28

Six to eight times a year.

Feels like plenty.

GhostShip Sat 24-Nov-12 20:16:00

This thread has made me anxious too sad

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 21:21:49

Cannot believe some of the stuff I read on here at times. Let's just hope it is a troll and not actually true.

NanFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 21:38:46

why have MN deleted the post? It wasn't a personal attack or a troll? confused

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 21:41:18

I imagine the post was deleted because it was perpetuating rape myths, and inciting others to do so

NanFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 21:44:34

Ah right, sorry didn't think of that.

Just hope this thread has made the poor lady think a bit sad

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 21:46:13

I reported that first post from her. mNHQ decided to delete it.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 21:46:45

I hope so too, if the poster is real. I am more inclined to thinking it is a poster of the MRA persuasion, but perhaps that would make me feel better than accepting there is a real woman out there who thinks like that sad

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 21:48:14

Have seen a few posts along these lines lately. Pretty odd.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 21:51:02

also, that poster claimed to be a regular

except that was the first and only post in that name

which implies what ?

name changer because she is ashamed of what her husband does to her ? Maybe...but that didn't come across did it ?

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 21:55:40

My gut told me something wasn't right with the poster so I reported. I hope in a way it was someone being a twat as the thought of someone living like that, being treated like shit without realising it, is too awful.

cronullansw Sat 24-Nov-12 22:08:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:10:38

no actually I name change quite frequently because i have friends on here. I am not ashamed of what my DH and I do. I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of. Not quite sure why MNHQ deleted my post.

I have had a couple of PMs from people who, like myself, can see no problem with my relationship.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:12:18

I am not treated like shit. my DH is the most lovely amazing husband I could ever wish for. I LOVE him and want him to be happy. He feels the same about me!

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:13:52

cronullansw one of the first people on here who seems to be talking sense.

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 22:18:00

People have PM'd you in the last couple of hours about this? To validate what's going on in your relationship?

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:19:04

yes people have pm'd me, most saying very similar things to cronullansw

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 22:20:15

One way or another, you need help.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:21:17

sure i do hmm

IllageVidiot Sat 24-Nov-12 22:37:28

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 22:38:11

Have you not thought that people may have a point or are you so conditioned to think that your husband putting lube on you while you sleep so he can fuck you is fine?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:38:26

sllloooomee, if you align yourself with posters like cronulla, you have more problems than I originally thought

or it simply makes me think you are both coming from the same place

JustFabulous Sat 24-Nov-12 22:39:11

Iv - that is out of order.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:39:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:41:40

I don't think I have seen a more appropriate name before.

If I said to him to stop he would, if I said that he should never do that again then he wouldn't. We love each other, we want each other to be happy and enjoy ourselves.

this extends to our sexlife, as well as our life in general. I would think that waking up to him having sex with me is the most vanilla part of our sex life!

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:42:58

Gawd help you

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:44:00

he is very dominant, he likes to be in charge. BUT this is not an abusive relationship. there is love and respect.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:46:36

every post another call to arms smile

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sat 24-Nov-12 22:49:33

I actually feel sick reading this.
Slloooomee do you have girls?

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:51:03

what has that got to do with anything?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:54:06

you would be ok with your daughters being fucked without your consent, is what it has to do with

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:54:18

without their consent

Sallyingforth Sat 24-Nov-12 22:55:00

Well I'm on your side sllloooomee

We all have our oen individual sexual feelings and desires, and it's always said that anything goes between two consenting adults.

If you have made it clear to your DH that you are content for him to initiate sex while you are asleep, I see nothing wrong with that at all. It's no-one else's business if you have agreed that he doesn't have to wake you up first and ask for express permission on every occasion, and it doesn't sound like rape to me.

Of course, should you wake up and say 'sorry DH I'm not in the mood tonight', he must respect that and stop immediately. I would hope that you have that understanding as well.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sat 24-Nov-12 22:55:41

Because what you describe as relationship full of love and respect sounds to me full of abuse and lacking in respect and boundaries.
You think he respects you but he uses you and belittles you with his actions.
It's a terrible message to pass on to children, makes me wonder about the rest of your relationship.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 22:56:29

sloomee, keep posting yeah

let's see how long you can do that for

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:56:38

well obviously not. just like it is not ok for anyone to be fucked without consent! I am not being fucking without consent! I have already said that he wouldn't do it if I asked!

he, and I, enjoy him being the dominant in our relationship. I am his. We like this and have agreed this.

sllloooomee Sat 24-Nov-12 22:59:30

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HandbagCrab Sat 24-Nov-12 23:00:36

I thought op was interested in real peoples regular sex lives?

Made up sub 50 shades shite is never going to cut it in comparison really.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:02:45

sloomee, try to post again

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:03:30

well ?

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 23:04:32

Waiting ...

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:05:00

< thumb twiddle >

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:05:33

< tumbleweed >

HandbagCrab Sat 24-Nov-12 23:06:13

That's not nice sll. 6 of the best for you!

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:06:42

methinks sloomee will not be replying

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:07:50

not under that name, anyways

cronullansw could be a proxy poster I suppose

Sallyingforth Sat 24-Nov-12 23:10:21

6 taunts in 5 minutes AF ?

Sounds like bullying to me.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:10:40

for the lurkers, sloomee is unable to post because that username is now banned

think of that what you will, and judge the posters that supported it's posts

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:11:10

sally, wake up

BelaLugosisShed Sat 24-Nov-12 23:12:29

So he's moaning about lack of sex but he gets to have sex with your unconcious body whenever he likes?
Anyone else spot the huge discrepancy here?
Someone's hooves want trimming.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:13:30

those hooves have been consigned to the bin

BelaLugosisShed Sat 24-Nov-12 23:14:13

Ahh, banned? says it all then.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:15:19

cronulla...come on..where are you then ?

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:16:41

I see..a tactical withdrawal

you live to shit stir another day...good on ya

BelaLugosisShed Sat 24-Nov-12 23:20:36

Having seen cronullansw's posting history, how could anyone take them seriously? Really, really pathetic, makes LG look reasonable.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:22:04


cronulla is an MRA sniper extraordinaire

no apologies forthcoming from anybody that supported shit like this ?

no ?

Anniegetyourgun Sat 24-Nov-12 23:23:24

Good call Aunty. <impressed at AF's psychic powers>

Spookily enough, the last time I had sex was when I woke up once to find STBXH at it. I was a bit too sleepy to be bothered to stop him, and anyway, I thought, it's probably the last time ever, so he may as well get on with it. After that I banished him to another room so he wouldn't get the chance again, sneaky fecker. That was in 2006.

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 23:23:39

All sockpuppets?

TisILeclerc Sat 24-Nov-12 23:23:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ashesgirl Sat 24-Nov-12 23:24:48

I've reported it too, TisIleclerc

BelaLugosisShed Sat 24-Nov-12 23:25:00

Of course not AF, Mens' needs are the only thing that matter in sexual relationships, silly you for not knowing that.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:25:19 psychic powers required, you and I know that x

Sallyingforth Sat 24-Nov-12 23:28:47

AF if your childish sniping is addressed to me, I stand firmly and nreservedly behind what I said in my first post.

Whether or not the other poster was posting in good faith does not change my feelings on the situation discussed by one iota.

I am going to bed now and will let you have the pleasure of the last word, although judging by the last half hour you will need more than one before you calm down.

AnyFucker Sat 24-Nov-12 23:30:28

sleep well, sally sad

Djembe Sat 24-Nov-12 23:44:03

Fucking hell, this thread sad

Keep up the good work AF [gin]

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sat 24-Nov-12 23:46:21

Grim wasn't it.

Anniegetyourgun Sat 24-Nov-12 23:47:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Woah I think this is the only longer post I've every read every part of! Fascinating doesn't quite cut it, feel a bit sorry for OP whose innocent question turned into a debate on Marital consent!! hmm

I didn't agree with some of the posts! Especially those saying men who want more see women as objects! That's bullcrap in most cases, its not the 60's! And also saying people who ask questions on here have unhealthy relationships, again bull, she was just asking out of curiosity. Of course that's tragic when it turns into a discussion about someone being raped, frequently.

My dh and I have a healthy relationship, with three young children together and he has two more, we both work acts so finding time can be challenging to say the least, it both of us instigate sex, it's no more one than the other, I certainly don't see him as an object!! I'd say before ds (4 weeks old) we probs had some form of sex 3 or 4 times a week if lucky...after recent birth though if he comes within 7 foot of me, I might have to kill him. grin But during my pregnancy I got really annoyed that he didn't want to have sex...and eas asking HIM for more, clearly that makes me some form of monster hmm

frantic51 Sun 25-Nov-12 00:15:29

Good grief! This thread has brought back some truly upsetting memories. sad Glad slllloooomeee (or however she spells her name) has gone. Can someone explain "MRA" please? It doesn't seem to be on the acronym list.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 00:21:50

Mens Rights Activist I think, although could be Male Rapist Apologists judging by some of the posters.

frantic51 Sun 25-Nov-12 00:37:10

Thank you.

frantic51 Sun 25-Nov-12 00:41:16

So you think that slllloooomeeee was a man? And the other one (forgotten the name, cron something or other)? I really wish I had never clicked on this thread. No woman in her right mind thinks this kind of behaviour is ok do they? I know I'm not much of a one for the feminist board but...

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 00:44:30

I have no idea Frantic I just looked it up.
I'm sorry that it's brought back some bad memories, it did for me too. It's made me feel a bit wobbly..

I'd sincerely hope not frantic! But you never know!!! I mean I find I hard to believe that people ' believed' in David Koresh or the KKK but they did, just because we can't make sense of it...doesn't mean others dont

frantic51 Sun 25-Nov-12 00:56:25

Oh God! Hadn't heard of David Koresh so looked him up. sad Sorry you're feeling wobbly too Exhibitionist. I'm off to find a frivolous thread in style and beauty or chat I think!

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 01:20:26

MRA...male rights activist

populated by misogynists, a "movement" many of whom have been finally dumped by women who finally saw the light

yup...those of the "women are abusers too" mindset

lovely blokes...not

spoonyfucker Sun 25-Nov-12 01:53:58

AnyFucker - I generally like straight talking, especially if it pricks the fragile male ego - it's good for us - but this thread was polarised very early on, due to comments like
"Men who make pronouncements like this think that once they are married the woman is there to service them sexually".
These kind of generalisations are emotive and harmful and will tend to shut down reasoned debate.
The reason I first took an interest in this thread, before it got derailed, is that in my own marriage, about 4 years ago, we were where the OP is now. Similar ages ourselves, lots of kids of similar ages, same sort of frequency of sex, same tension. I “had a bee in my bonnet” about it.
Now, we are having more sex, probably 3 times a week average, and better sex, with a greater sense of genuine “connection”. But…… if I hadn't pushed for it, it wouldn't have happened. You’ve probably already decided that I fit right into your easy stereotype at this point, right ?
But… I didn’t demand more sex as “my right”, pretty much the opposite, what I saw was that my wife was so dedicated to meeting the demands of her family, that she felt it would be too “selfish” to give sex a higher priority for herself. If I had thought the answer was just to help more with housework, that wouldn’t have fixed it. Yes, it’s important to share the load fairly, but there’s always more bl**dy housework to do when you’ve got 4 kids, so accepting her set of priorities would just have meant both of us always having something else left to do before heading up the stairs.
So when I said “I don’t think we’re having enough sex” I was not saying “I don’t think you’re giving me enough use of your body, which I thought I’d bought the keys to”, I was saying “I want us to give sex a higher priority because it would be good for our marriage, to spend more time just focussed on the two of us, with the rest of the world shut out for just an hour or so, to appreciate each other, to rekindle the generosity towards each other that was bursting out of us when we first met, to physically and emotionally lose ourselves in each other and so strengthen the bond between us that allows us to cope with all the stresses and demands that raising a young family means.”
Maybe the OP’s husband is just selfish, but maybe he is genuinely interested in the role of sex in keeping their marriage strong. We don’t know. But it is definitely legitimate for one partner to say to the other “I don’t think we’re having enough sex, and I want us to talk about it”, and it will not help the OP if all she hears from real, or virtual friends, is basically “he’s a selfish bastard”.
It is fundamental that every woman has the right to determine whether or not to have sex with her husband, but it’s not much of an answer to more nuanced questions around mismatched drives. Talk of “rights” gets us nowhere in such cases. It is possible for a loving husband to ask “how can I and my wife have the strongest, richest, most durable marriage possible” and for one answer to be “we should have more sex”.
For anyone struggling with mismatched sex drives and misunderstanding of each other’s sexual motivations, I can recommend the work of Dr David Schnarch. Intimacy and Desire is a good starting point.

cronullansw Sun 25-Nov-12 06:00:32

Well, what a to do.

I honestly do not get this - agree or we will ban you - mentality, or, as it appears in this case, agree with AF or you will get banned.

And dear AF, as for calling me out for more, I was living a life, in the real world, not waiting bare minutes between posts checking to see if there had been a reply. And I'd say this is neither name calling or trolling.

cronullansw Sun 25-Nov-12 06:07:35

Pardon me for forgetting to add to my last post...

I am neither a mens nor a womens rights activist. I believe that we have equal rights and that gender is a non issue, in the same way that Morgan Freeman when asked about being a black actor, replied that he was an actor and there was no need to bring race into the equation.

Equality. No bias.

GrannyRat Sun 25-Nov-12 09:10:03

Wow what a depressing thread. I honestly took Sllloooomee at face value <naive>

I see that no one from MN has been on to the thread to confirm that the poster wasn't genuine and the majority of his/her posts remain so I'm still a little confused. I note that AF stated above that the poster is now banned and wonder how you know this? I'm just curious as you often invest a lot emotionally in the threads in Relationships and want to know for sure that it was a wind up.

I'm not sure the OP will be back.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 09:16:06

Spoonfucker, I agree. The assumptions and agression displayed at the beginning of the post did shut down reasonable debate.
A couple should be able to discuss their sex life, indeed anyone should be able to come onto a forum and ask for other people's opinions without there being an assumption that he is using her to service him or that the relationship is rotten.
We never answered the OPs question either, what is the norm? I'd say, it's personal to the couple. Once a week would seem a lot to some and not much to others.
I'd be content with once a week but I'd like it more grin

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 09:54:07

Spoonyfucker, not Spoonfucker!

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 09:56:27

I reported the posts and then had a msg back from HQ to say Slllooomee has been banned. No more info than that, I'm afraid.

NanFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 10:18:04

I feel a bit sick if it was a troll, what a grim thing to troll about sad

There again I suppose at least its not someone really living that life.

strumpetpumpkin Sun 25-Nov-12 10:30:57

I assumed it was a D/S kind of relationship, which is all well and good, but then it was probably a troll, because they seemed so surprised that some people would be upset by that. Especially on a relationship board.

differentnameforthis Sun 25-Nov-12 10:39:45

he is very dominant, he likes to be in charge sad

He feels the same about me! Except when he has to fuck you in your sleep because he is jealous of your previous lovers! Or perhaps he does that because thinking of you with previous lovers gives him some kind of kick?

Either way, that isn't love, that's possession.

differentnameforthis Sun 25-Nov-12 10:48:26

Bugger, posted before I had all the facts.

No woman in her right mind thinks this kind of behaviour is ok do they?

Sadly, yes. I know one woman who happily lets her dh have sex with while she is asleep. Often she doesn't wake up & he will tell her in the morning. sad

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 10:51:57

Cronull - you're not getting deleted/slllloooome getting banned because you disagree with AF (or any of the others) but because you are perpetuating rape myths such as it isn't rape if it's your husband/you didn't say no/if you consent after being penetrated whilst unconscious...

Maybe, just maybe, the suffering from a dry vagina and the raping are connected... Jeez, awful, really awful...

She doesnt wake up at all????? Wow

strumpetpumpkin Sun 25-Nov-12 10:56:20

or if theyre not clever enough to realise which bits of the relationship are unconventional and contraversial and likely to cause uproar with other women, then theyre probably not quite clever enough to have proper informed consent about that type of thing.
It does go on, a lot. And if the people know and its roleplaying etc, then i have no problem with it, but it sounds a bit sus here

differentnameforthis Sun 25-Nov-12 11:01:52

Madame, sometimes she does, but not always.

She is really ok with it, but part of wonders why, given some of her other beliefs.

differentnameforthis Sun 25-Nov-12 11:02:40

part of me wonders why,

Yeah that's hard to get your head around! I wake up if dh coughs or sneezes, I've heard of heavy sleeper before but that seems surreal!!!!

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 11:16:35

I'd be so creeped out by a partner who wanted to have sex with my unconscious and unresponsive body. Who would think that ok?

Anniegetyourgun Sun 25-Nov-12 11:24:35

OMG, I've had a post deleted! As far as I know that was my first ever. I wasn't even hunting you-know-whats at the time - the you-know-what had already been identified at that point. And I was only the third person to mention, er, feets and the other two are still there.

<feels victimized>


brew even!

Anniegetyourgun Sun 25-Nov-12 11:38:00

Thanks smile

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 11:49:20

Like I said upthread, since Op has never been back to answer any of the questions raised on this thread....that is just what they remain, questions

My possible (because that is all it is, in the face of very little information) take on the issue is one idea. There are others. We are all entitled to raise them. We all have done so, with varying degrees of reasonableness and even honesty. It's what an open message board is for.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 11:50:20

Sorry, last message was to spoonyfucker.

GhostShip Sun 25-Nov-12 12:07:51

I hope that she wasn't serious. After having it done to me I feel that someone else accepting it

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 12:10:13

I am so sorry that happened to you, Ghost

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 12:16:19

It happens to a lot of women, it used to happen to me I used to think (be told) it was because he desired me so much. I was well trained to believe I was not meant to be considered in "normal" sex and that normal relationships with men were all about allowing them to do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. I had proper "I'm not a victim, being raped isn't a big deal" crap for many years.

spoonyfucker Sun 25-Nov-12 13:25:48

@ Accidental: maybe you're prescient, maybe I will end up being a spoonfucker, non-consensually, in a CenterParcs fashion, if I don't cure the annoying habit confessed to on another thread. Maybe DW will try to do it while I'm sleeping......

digerd Sun 25-Nov-12 13:33:33

I have never experienced sex while asleep, but it occurs to me that it may be possible if he is extremely small and she was lying on her side in the curled up position with him behind her? It could not have happened with my (late) DH as he was very well endowed .

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 14:04:58

It isn't anything to do with how well endowed the man is or really how deeply you sleep even. It is entirely to do with how the intended victim has been prepared to accept something like this by the person who does it and it I think, having thought about it a LOT, it involves a lot of planning and manipulation beforehand such as picking the right period of sleep and preparing you so they are confident they won't be called out on it.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 14:08:46

Basically you would wake up if you were not expecting sex to be initiated while you slept, if it was not a shock and they picked a period of deep sleep you may well not.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 14:10:38

Knowing it happens is not the same as consenting to it btw, that's the main thing that's wrong with slllloooomee's assertion it isn't rape. There really is no subjectivity about it, sex with someone unconscious is rape. Full stop.

confuddledDOTcom Sun 25-Nov-12 14:40:54

We sort of do it but we're both really light sleepers and been known to just start a conversation at 3am. He does wait until I respond before penetration and I have said no before and he's stopped. I like being woken up being kissed and touched (I'm a very touchy person - if you know the Love Languages I'm very much PT), I like the dreamy feeling of it being in the middle of the night, I think I might feel differently if he wasn't waiting for me to wake up though!

What sllloooomee describes sounds creepy though! Having to reclaim her when he's thought about her with an ex? shock I'm a stepmother and have to stop myself thinking "why?" when I look at XW, doesn't make me want to have sex with him! (Doesn't put me off, mind!)

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 25-Nov-12 15:16:24

It's perfectly valid that a husband/ wife should seek to make a relationship better, stronger, happier etc. and that one of the ways they can do that is "more sex".

What makes me cynical, is that in many cases "more sex" is the first thing men hit on, when actually what would make their DP happier, is "more housework" "more cooking" "more childcare" "more laundry" "more responsibility" "less drinking alcohol" etc. etc. which would often naturally and automatically lead to more sex.

Looking at more sex without looking at the context of the rest of the relationship, isn't always the sign of a nobber, but it usually is tbh.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 25-Nov-12 15:17:48

And obviously, I'm talking about "more housework" "more cooking" etc. from their partner not from them - because they're already doing the lion's share and this is what is making their relationship unhappy for them in the first place and is also what is making them not feel quite so like sex.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 25-Nov-12 15:19:15
Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 15:32:16

I think a lot of it can be connected to the expected quality of sexual consideration of the female in a heterosexual sexual relationship. It is very often about male orgasm; "what do lesbians do?!", "oh sure you can fuck a woman <trouser rub> that's not cheating --proper sex--", porn education, an attitude that normal sex is "needed" by a man and tolerated by a woman etc which has led sex to be commonly thought of as entirely male oriented in popular belief, how many of these men are wanting sex which actually builds intimacy and is about a shared experience? Which does not necessarily revolve around their orgasm? (I know probably some but I doubt the majority) How many women are wanting quantity because they are not getting quality?

Sex with men can be really disappointing, quite emotionally and physically exhausting if, for whatever reason, it is all about male orgasm from PIV sex as the main feature. i think women can sometimes react to that by wanting loads more all the time or by going off it completely. Often on threads like this I think "you want more sex, what do you mean by sex and what about the current situation makes you unhappy? How does your partner feel about the quality and quantity of your sexual intimacy and why?"

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 16:02:12

Well yes, it's fine to have a discussion and say I'd like more sex to your partner.

But that's not really the issue.

It's more what happens next that counts - if your partner says 'no' to more sex.

If it results in sulking or pestering or guilt-tripping then you're moving into the realms of coercive sex.

GhostShip Sun 25-Nov-12 16:42:46

Anyfucker - least I have learned and am now with a man who has the upmost respect for me and other women. thanks! I was a stuoid young 16 year old, wasted four years with that bastard.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:05:33

Yes, Ghost, there are a few years in my life I wish I could go back and live again sad thanks

GhostShip Sun 25-Nov-12 17:12:46

It's sad but least we have experienced the bad, and can maybe help others when we recognise the same situations happening. I always try to put a positive on a negative. It helps me feel better

I'm not usually one for being soft but it hurt me that someone used a subject like this to troll.

mapleleef Sun 25-Nov-12 17:19:10

' he doesnt caress or nuzzle me he usually just pulls my bottoms down and rubs some lube on me ( i suffer from vaginal dryness) and then has sex with me.'

sllloooomee - Has it ever occurred to you that the so-called vaginal dryness might be caused by your lack of arousal due to the above. The majority of women need about 20 mins of arousal (I prefer that name to 'foreplay' as it doesn't imply that penis in vagina sex is the only aim) before they can enjoy an orgasm/s. I would guess that most women would be dry if penetrated in seconds without any caresses or nuzzling etc. Most women well past the menopause needn't have any vaginal dryness if they make sure they only allow penetration once they are fully aroused i.e. wet. And if that doesn't work, don't have penetrative sex. You don't have to put up with this whether he's your husband or whatever!!! Find someone who respects you or do without!

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 25-Nov-12 17:20:56

Yes that's a very good point Offred.

When men talk about wanting more sex, quite often they're talking about wanting to have more masturbation inside a woman's body.

Which er, isn't more sex if you're a woman, it's being used as a sex-aid.

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 17:22:04

mapleleef - Slooomee was a troll who's been banned now.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:22:15

Me too...that's why I pushed so very hard (along with others), despite the raised eyebrows from other posters and perhaps giving the impression to some people that I am a bully. I am not, and I would do it again.

I have supported many people on here (along with other posters) in awful relationships that include sexual abuse, but this one did not ring true...and we were right. In the event it was true (please God, no) those rape myths being perpetuated are not tolerated on Mumsnet and for that I am very thankful (and a reason why I stick around here)

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 17:23:18

You are not a bully, AF.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:23:21

last post was to Ghost...sorry slow typing (am distracted by Dog the Bounty Hounter)

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:23:54

quite a few people think so, Ashes sad

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:25:25

you are fab, Ashes, btw smile

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 17:26:06

sllloooomee has now been been banned from the site. See thread above..

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 17:28:37

Well ... people are entitled to disagree. But I see someone who is willing to support others in awful relationships.

The problem is that people come on here asking for advice and it is frequently an indicator that something is very wrong in their relationship. The fact they are even here is a barometer, if you like.

If you're not in that kind of relationship yourself, it may be baffling to see posters like you (and me) who point out some of the general issues that occur - like women going along with sex they don't really want.

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 17:29:12

Thanks AF - aww! :-)

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 17:30:50

Damn, cross post.
We hope she was a troll, I've been on sites very similar in name to this one where issues like this come up and no-one else thinks it's rape or abuse at all. There are a great deal of people out there living lives like this unfortunately.

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 17:36:42

Guess that's what they mean by 'rape culture', Accidental.

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 17:40:02

Actually, I'm not surprised at all if MRA types troll about this kind of stuff here. Makes sense when you think about it.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:42:02

Then you get the "snipers" popping in on such threads, upholding rape myths and telling us women that object how wrong we are getting it.

They offer no support to the abused women at all, but cause mayhem and derailment.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 17:43:06

Cronullansw seems to be one of them...

JustFabulous Sun 25-Nov-12 17:46:03

confused that anyone could think AF was a bully.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:46:42

offred, indeed

the posting history is the big fat clue smile

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:47:17

thanks, fab

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 17:54:27

Bleurgh it's a big AF love in... grin

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 17:55:41

Although sometimes I do secretly think "argh, where's AF dammit?" grin

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 17:59:05

ha ! Me 'n' Fab have history innit grin

JustFabulous Sun 25-Nov-12 19:11:17

We sure do wink.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 19:14:57

Proper love story... Bleurgh! grin

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 19:40:03


AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 19:40:48

for the record, I have never touched fab in my life wink

JustFabulous Sun 25-Nov-12 19:42:58


How can you deny us??

<heart breaks>

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 19:46:24

arrgh grin

JustFabulous Sun 25-Nov-12 19:53:59

You're not supposed to laugh.


spoonyfucker Sun 25-Nov-12 19:56:37

@ Anyfucker: I don't have a problem with your attitude towards slllooomee's posts, but that's not what I was calling you out on. What bothers me about this thread is the response to the OP, and the fact that many posters seem to continue to be more interested in reacting to the much more extreme situation of sllllooommee, when that was effectively a hijacking of the thread and has supposedly been dealt with anyway.

Mismatched drives, and arguments over frequency, are widespread in even healthy marriages. Does anyone else have any constructive experiences or insight to offer the OP, or to someone else in the OP's situation who may persevere to this point in the thread ?

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 19:59:32

spoony, when the OP posts and runs on such a controversial subject as always goes like this

derailing and everyone puts their two pennorth in

several questions have been asked of the OP, and I (among others) have asked her to come back and clarify some stuff but she hasn't

am not sure how helpful the thread is at all on such little information, tbh

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 20:00:22

Spoony- the problem is the op hasn't come back and no-one can offer advice because there isn't enough info in what was posted to do anything other than speculate. Besides I did post a speculating post just a bit ago.

JustFabulous Sun 25-Nov-12 20:20:58

Maybe people don't want to try and advise the OP anymore now they have posted and gone without answering any questions that would help one understand her issues, so of course the thread has gone on to discuss other posts.

moonblushtomato Sun 25-Nov-12 20:51:01

I'm baaaaack!

Oo er, what a carryon! confused I'm not entirely sure what all (or much, more to the point) the above is all about???

But, getting back to the crisis, me and DH had a chat earlier this evening and think we've got it sorted out.

The main problem is that when its bed time, for me that means sleep time, so,we're gonna try and re-schedule the rumpy to earlier in the evening when all DCs r in the land of nod.

The whole question of sex drive is an interesting one as mine has altered beyond all recognition since DCs, and being in my 40s, I thought I might get a surge? A friend suggested it may b the pill I'm on? (Cerazette btw)

Anyway, thank to all those giving helpful advice, to the others , maybe you need to get yourselves a hobby........grin

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 20:56:05

It is so funny that whenever a sx question like this comes up the same old posters come out with the same old stuff... that is 'does he help around the house enough'? As if for some reason that has anything to do with the amount of sex in a relationship and then AF always says something about him expecting to be serviced or some such similar rubbish
I think you lot live in the dark ages

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:02:17

That's helpful advice penny grin

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:03:19

about as helpful as most of the other advice yes

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:05:10

Maybe you could explain why you think it is irrelevant?

JustFabulous Sun 25-Nov-12 21:05:55

I'm a bit hmm that you post, bugger off then come back just as people are voicing their opinions of your post and run act and then you are blase like that.

Actually I think it is probably true that women who live with men who do fuck all in the house actually want to do fuck all with their men in the bedroom.

GhostShip Sun 25-Nov-12 21:06:58

Love is in the air... Dum dum dee deeeee

OP - it's natural for your sex drive to lower innit! The pill probably doesn't help though. My anti-depressants made mine lower, but now it's normal again and sexy time is every night

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:08:20

I haven't buggered off anywhere!
Is housework a trade off for sex then? how many men really do fuck all in the house these days

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:09:58

oh blimey you weren't saying that to me!
what is irrelevant ?

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:10:58

No, and it isn't a point I make so I'm defending it on behalf of someone else, but it is related because a partner who sits on their arse and watches their partner run themselves ragged with housework and childcare and then complains they are too tired for sex might feel less tired or more intimate with someone who doesn't leave all the housework to them.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:13:22

Are there really blokes who don't help at all these days? If so why don't their partner's do something about it

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 21:14:24

Yes there are still some blokes out there like this.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:15:30

Of course there are, I don't think it is up to the partners to do something about it, sometimes they are women who have been raised to be servile living with men who are women as servants and they are often now called abusers and it is hard to unpick it. I think it is a pretty common theme within threads on here.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:15:47


Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:16:25

Argh stupid cold think women are servants

moonblushtomato Sun 25-Nov-12 21:17:35

I'm quite new to Mumsnet JF , do I need to stay online to reply to everyone? And I guess I do feel more blasé about my situation now but in Good way. Now me and DH have started to get it sorted, it's taken the tension out of the air.

Thanks again thanks

Ghostship I might look into the pill thing a bit more.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:17:56

servants? sometimes women rule the roost and have their men running round doing chores to try and please them

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:21:23

OP, so there is really no problem here at all

that's useful to know when people have put their all into advising you, got deleted, got banned, had arguments with people they wouldn't normally have arguments with, changed their opinions of totally reasonable posters etc

that's just great, I am chuffed for you

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:22:19

penny haven't you read the relationships board before ?

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:26:16

Only Xenia penny, don't think I have ever seen another one on the whole board.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:26:56

Yes! why are you having a right go at the OP ? sounds like she has sorted her problem...

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 21:27:08

OP, you don't need to reply to everyone. But there was a very horrible disturbing debate while you were away. And it did make some posters anxious.

Some of the worst posts have been deleted now so perhaps the conversation doesn't make total sense to you.

But it did seem like you were being a little flippant and blase after all that's gone on. But I'll put that down to you not having read the whole thing perhaps.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:27:27

Iknow someone like that in RL offred

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:28:37

I can't believe that you are having a go at the OP because some silly argument went on in her thread while she wasn't here... there are always rows on MN it is hardly her fault for starting the thread is it?

moonblushtomato Sun 25-Nov-12 21:29:39

Yes I think I have for the time being anyway.

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 21:30:47

I'm pleased for you moonblushtomato
My sex drive was lower on Cerezette..

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:30:52

flippancy ain't the best reaction to how her thread turned out, tbh

I would judge that

moonblushtomato Sun 25-Nov-12 21:31:52

Just read some new messages and yes, I am confused!

Have I missed something? Anyway, I have read all the helpful advice offered and thanks again for that.

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 21:32:12

I know one like that in rl when I think of it (she is an abuser who has killed my xbf's career and banned him from even speaking to women) but I know legion of "why should I tell you I'm going to the pub after work/look after the dcs at all? You only work part time and the rest of the time you just play with dc" men...

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:32:59

watch out it's the flippant police...
how did her thread turn out? did something terrible happen in it

TheAccidentalExhibitionist Sun 25-Nov-12 21:34:06

I thought moonblushtomatos post was more bemused than blasé.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:34:13

I think I missed it too OP!

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:34:41

mbt's post was fine

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:34:54

well, some people lost their MN membership

that could be terrible for them, since I am thinking they are in awful need of some support if their input was genuine sad

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 21:36:53

I think you needed to be here while it happened to understand why some people are bothered by this.

It doesn't make sense (to the same degree) with all those deleted posts.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:37:08

how did they lost their membership?
surely they can post here anyway or re register under a different user name

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:37:36

anyway it is still not the OP's fault is it

ledkr Sun 25-Nov-12 21:41:05

Not the ops fault that the thread took a nasty turn because of alleged troll.
May op is trying to back away slowly due to the turn it took but doing it chirpily to leave sharpish grin can be a little scary to a newby

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:42:15

penny, I actually can't be arsed to explain to you

it's one of those "you had to be there" moments

trust me on that, or don't...I don't give a shit

sometimes wilful ignorance is too much to deal with for a simple MN'er...this is one of those times

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 21:45:17

Hey come on, none of this was the OP's fault. Why are you directing your anger at her?

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:45:52

it's unheard of for an OP to minimise and back off when faced with healthy reactions to an OP....yeah

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:46:19

come on AF it's a message board get it into perspective... I am not ignorant just living in the real world

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:46:52

anger ? No anger here. I think the banned poster(s) might feel a bit of disquiet though.

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:48:22

If posters are banned it is their fault and not the OP's
and they can always come back

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:49:27

not so easy to "come back"

unless you make a habit of getting banned, getting a new email and user name, a whole different persona and start again ?

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:51:50

surely they are not banned forever? and if so they must've said something pretty bad I guess

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:52:24

many posters change names on here and most people have more than one email addy

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:52:29

penny...I don't think you understand what "banning" means

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:53:38

yes I do AF
on the scale of world problems I don't think it comes very high

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 21:54:12

If they were banned it must have been for a good reason I guess

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:57:06


AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 21:57:45

Did someone other than sllloooomee get banned?

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 21:59:16

look, the bunfight isn't OP's fault at all

but to come back after all that and say "haha, we are fine after all...what is all this drama about, aren't you being silly" is fucking bad manners at the very least

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 22:07:59

Well maybe it was trivial. Often they're not but sometimes they are. We still don't really know in this case. But even if it was, there's no rule against airing trivial problems. OP shouldn't have to apologise.

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 22:14:42

Maybe the OP's issue was trivial to her.

What happened afterwards was far from trivial.

So for her to come in and

a) dismiss those who didn't offer 'helpful advice' and
b) and tell them they should get a hobby

was a bit off given the awful subject that has been discussed.

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 22:18:06

I thought the "get a hobby" bit was directed at the derailers?

ashesgirl Sun 25-Nov-12 22:20:06

Maybe Amanda. I thought that too at first. But on second reading, I wasn't so sure.

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 22:23:36

Either way I feel a bit sorry for her, I'm not entirely sure I'd have handled it better in her place, particularly if I wasn't a regular reader.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Sun 25-Nov-12 22:23:49

The OP is not to blame for the arrival of nutters on her thread. Nor is she personally responsible for the mental wellbeing of anyone else on here. She asked a question, got mixed advice, takes what she needs from it and moves on. This is fair enough.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:25:08

hey, never mind

OP is ok

this is OP's thread after all

I am glad things have magically reversed for you, OP. But never forget that MN is here for you, should you falter

however, next time it may be better if you stick around for the valuable advice you are asking for..or else, why bother ?

Anniegetyourgun Sun 25-Nov-12 22:29:10

I suppose I'll get deleted again if I comment on the 'orrible whiff of socks in the air.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:31:46

annie...another deletion won't blot your white-as-white copybook will it, too much ?

I daren't..the print on my copybook is very smudged to say the least smile

Offred Sun 25-Nov-12 22:33:33

Ah you're just showing off now AF ya bully you! grin

Anniegetyourgun Sun 25-Nov-12 22:37:24

Badge of honour, AF, badge of honour.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:39:20

Amanda I have sympathy with Op too

knowledge of MN etiquette or not...I would have come back to my thread before now in attempt to diffuse the madness

wouldn't you ?

you simply do not post an OP like that and go shopping for 48 hours, do you ?

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:39:51

< pins badge on annie >

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:40:56

offred, I am not showing off, I have a ban under my belt...hence my knowledge of what it means (and the implications of another one) smile

Anniegetyourgun Sun 25-Nov-12 22:41:08


AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 22:44:04

I don't know, you might do. She didn't actually ask for advice after all, she merely asked how frequently people have sex. Admittedly she made a slightly odd comment that you had made an interesting point about her DH's mindset - but that's all we've got to hang her on.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:47:15

I know, amanda...I said that about 3 months ago (it feels like)

ledkr Sun 25-Nov-12 22:54:39

< pops in with hot drinks for everyone >
You've all been on here a long time now, you've missed homeland and its a school night now drink your drinks and off to bed with you all.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:57:20

ledkr...I have some more wine to finish, thank you grin

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 22:57:28

Good idea ledkr. Night all! brew

AmandaCooper Sun 25-Nov-12 22:57:58

Enjoy your wine AF.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 22:59:45

I will, but not too much smile

Amanda.. I respect your posts, I just wanted to say that

ledkr Sun 25-Nov-12 23:00:44

On a Sunday? You devil you grin
If you are near a tv put on channel 4 kookyville it's really funny

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:09:59

I have Piers Morgan, Kelly Osbourne interview on

sunday isn't winetime in your house, ledkr ?

do you have a problem ? grin

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 23:29:01

Are you really saying that posters aren't allowed to disappear for a bit after they ask a question?

ledkr Sun 25-Nov-12 23:29:04

That is the problem af the weekend was starting Thursday and lasting till Sunday I felt I needed to exercise a little self discipline grin

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:37:44

would you disappear though after asking such a loaded question, penny ?

yes, that can because no-one is in chains on a website, but I would like to think if I asked a specific question, I wouldn't fuck off for 48 hours

is that just me who has basic manners ?

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:37:59

they can

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:39:07

led...self discipline is a little short in this house

basic manners, full abundance grin

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Sun 25-Nov-12 23:42:50

Not everyone lives on the internet. People are allowed to ask questions when they are just mulling something over rather than in crisis, and it's not at all unreasonable for someone to be busy over a weekend.

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:46:49

just me then (that has basic manners) confused

pennymixup Sun 25-Nov-12 23:49:10

Absolutely SolidGold...
'basic manners'? on a message board?
I just don't see it

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:53:17

< shrug >

takes all sorts

done as you would be done's a good mantra to live by

AnyFucker Sun 25-Nov-12 23:54:46

especially since at several different points the OP was called out to come and explain and failed to do so

obvs the "problem" not that severe...which is a good thing

differentnameforthis Mon 26-Nov-12 00:44:55

I feel the need to point out that the person I know has no issue with it at all. It obviously isn't consented to all the time, but they do talk about it on occasions & she says that if she doesn't wake, he can can carry on if he wants to. The only rule is that he must tell her in the day day, sometime.

I don't challenge her about it (mainly because I rarely see her & we don't really talk about it that much), but it does make me sad. I mean, if I am having sex, I want to be involved. I want to feel the pleasurable touches etc & I know that my dh wants me to be involved too. I have more issue with her dh doing it (than her accepting it), because how can he just do that while she sleeps, does he not want her to have some experience of it too, be involved etc?

differentnameforthis Mon 26-Nov-12 00:45:38

Oh & madame, she is a VERY heavy sleeper!

differentnameforthis Mon 26-Nov-12 00:50:44


He is in no way manipulating at all. She wears the trousers, all of them, all at once wink so there is no way in her case, that this is because of any form of manipulation or that he has conditioned her to accept this. Because absolutely no way would she, if she didn't want to! I dunno, I can't explain it. She sees it as him getting what he needs, without having to be too involved in that, maybe? Everything else is perfectly happy in their relationship.

ledkr Mon 26-Nov-12 07:33:06

I love the idea that people "need" sex. Like they need air and food.
Your friends husband sounds as if he had a fetish tbh why else would he enjoy sex with a sleeping unresponsive partner?
Makes me grateful for my normal dh.

ledkr Mon 26-Nov-12 07:37:12

Sort I meant to say it sounds as if your friend has at done point been made to believe that men need sex so she has to tolerate this abnormal behaviour or he won't have his needs met.

AmandaCooper Mon 26-Nov-12 08:46:59

Thanks AF, you're a tower of strength to people on here, and for what it's worth I think you absolutely made the right call earlier.

differentnameforthis I would feel very uncomfortable if that was happening to one of my friends. He might be getting what he needs but those are some fucked up needs IMO.

ledkr Mon 26-Nov-12 08:52:03

My sentiments entirely Amanda. Needs indeed <shakes head>
All these blokes getting away with crap cos "they has needs you know" makes me want to puke

AnyFucker Mon 26-Nov-12 10:46:16

It doesn't matter how big her boots are in the daytime, it doesn't change the fact that this woman's husband is having sex on her without her consent.

Anniegetyourgun Mon 26-Nov-12 10:49:41

Sounds to me as if it is his way of regaining power on the quiet, as it were.

ledkr Mon 26-Nov-12 11:36:51

Revolting. I'd assume you'd have to have extremely low self esteem to allow this. I'd also be interested to know if this still happens if the woman has for example period pains or thrush? Does she still get violated?

AnyFucker Mon 26-Nov-12 11:52:23

Well, at the risk of TMI, she probably has chronic thrush. That's a likely outcome of being penetrated on a regular basis when you are dry. They probably pass it between each other during these nocturnal shag-an-unconscious-piece-of-meat sessions.

differentnameforthis Mon 26-Nov-12 12:12:29

Anniegetyourgun perhaps, who knows.

I agree with you all, I really do. And I don't like it when she drops it into the conversations we do have. We talked about it at length before, and I did tell her that I thought it was unhealthy & told her why I felt that, but she said it worked for them.

I did try once again, but soon got the impression that my opinion wasn't wanted.

As I say, we rarely talk these days (we were part of the same group at one point & formed a relationship through that, though she left a while ago) as our paths don't often cross. But as I said, I do often wonder how this ever got to be OK for her. sad

TisILeclerc Mon 26-Nov-12 13:14:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spoonyfucker Mon 26-Nov-12 13:15:38

@moonblushtomato: good to hear from you !

If you peer through the blizzard of posts projecting other people's bad experiences onto your relationship and telling you how it really is for you, or criticising your manners (!) for keeping out of a complete hijacking of your own thread, hopefully there's still something constructive in the thread for you.

Bear in mind also that "feelings" were, for us, an unreliable guide to getting sex right in marriage. It's very easy for one partner to "feel" that the other is not making enough effort, or "feel" that the other is pressurising them into sex unfairly, particularly when both of you are working hard and often tired and are carrying significant responsibilities. "Feelings" can protect you from harm, but they can equally protect you from change that is initially hard but ultimately rewarding.

Schnarch refers to marriage as a "people-growing machine". The successful couples, long term, are the ones who acknowledge these tensions and have the honesty and self-understanding to tackle them in openness and love.

OK, end of lecture....

AmberSocks Mon 26-Nov-12 13:27:39

Ive only read the first post of this thread,and id ont want to sound rude but not everything men do and say is sexist,maybe the ops oh has tried all the "basic techniques" and still hasnt got anywhere,thats why hes asking.

Anyway,to the OP,we have 4 children aged 6 weeks,2 and a half,3 and a half and 4 and a half,we do it about 2 or 3 times a week,sometimes more sometimes less,it depends.

AmberSocks Mon 26-Nov-12 13:30:27

personally i do think a lot of people do need sex,not like food and air but i think it can be important to your overall wellbeing.

frantic51 Mon 26-Nov-12 13:57:25

Spooney, I think it is about manners in some respect. No-one would ask a question in RL and walk away, not bothering to listen to the answer, would they? And if that question resulted others getting into a squabble, one would do what one could to defuse the situation wouldn't one?

I know that AF and I have not seen eye to eye on some threads but, I have to say, she is impeccably well mannered in her arguing and definitely not one of those who resorts to nastiness if someone doesn't agree with her. To my mind, she is one of the people who make MN really worthwhile. It's always refreshing to talk to her and she has given me much food for thought in the time I have been here.

AnyFucker Mon 26-Nov-12 17:19:59

< slips frantic a fiver >

spoonyfucker Mon 26-Nov-12 18:50:43

< warms to Anyfucker's sense of humour >

frantic51 Mon 26-Nov-12 19:10:59

<takes fiver to go and buy wine to celebrate rapprochement grin >

AnyFuckingDude Mon 26-Nov-12 19:17:30

stick around spoony, you'll warm to me more

us fuckers have to stick together wink (have namechaned by the way)

AnyFuckingDude Mon 26-Nov-12 19:18:32

frantic..I don't remember any unpleasantness between us. I am sure it was a small misunderstanding smile and that no grudges could nor should be held

spoonyfucker Mon 26-Nov-12 19:21:09

< commits self to leave this thread alone as unhealthy amount of time spent on internet is now threatening health of marriage that was so keen to boast about.... >

spoonyfucker Mon 26-Nov-12 19:22:57

<cross-posts with AnyFucker, worries that commitment to leave thread now seen as slight to AnyFucker's exhortation to stick around... aaarrrrghhh !>

AnyFuckingDude Mon 26-Nov-12 19:28:00

I didn't mean literally stick around on this thread, I meant in general. You may leave any time you wish grin

AmandaCooper Mon 26-Nov-12 19:39:52

Except immediately after asking a question! grin

frantic51 Mon 26-Nov-12 19:43:01

AFD no indeed! We have disagreed but never unpleasantly. How could we when we are both so well mannered! grin I was referring to the fact that this thread seems to winding up more pleasantly than it began. Have a wine

Spoony, take a wine with you. See you around soon I hope! grin

AnyFuckingDude Mon 26-Nov-12 20:05:08

< looks around thread in wine induced hazy pleasantness >

FastidiaBlueberry Mon 26-Nov-12 21:57:43

" 'does he help around the house enough'? As if for some reason that has anything to do with the amount of sex in a relationship"

a) I don't believe the OP was asked if he helps clean his own house, she was asked if he does his fair share. There's a world of difference there, the difference between the ownership of domestic work and the non-ownership, just helping-out-the-person-whose-job-it-really-is status of domestic work.

b) Actually every time there is research done about the relationship between sex and housework, results consistently show that the amount of sex men have with their partners is directly related to the amount of housework they do - the more domestic labour, the more sex.

Which shouldn't really be a big surprise to anyone. Someone who takes ownership of the domestic tasks and doesn't think his partner is a skivvy, probably has a bit of respect for her and therefore probably has a better relationship with her and therefore probably is more welcome in and around her body... really not rocket science.

pennymixup Mon 26-Nov-12 22:55:18

It may not be rocket science but it's a load of bllx Fastidia... amount of sex related to amount of housework?! I know someone who does loads of housework but has hardly any sex... he doesn't do it because he has respect for her, he does it to keep busy so he doesn't have to spend any time with her

FastidiaBlueberry Tue 27-Nov-12 21:08:47

pennymixup, my grandmother smoked 20 cigarettes a day from about the age of 20 until about the age of 90 and she died when she was 98 with hardly a day's illness.

So I'll just dismiss all the research that has ever been done on smoking shall I, on the basis that I knew one old woman who bucked the trend?

Because that in effect is what you are doing with your argument based on one bloke. There have been several research studies done which shows that in general, men who do more domestic work have more sex. Not because they are being repaid for their labour, but because they have happier relationships.

AmberSocks Thu 29-Nov-12 09:38:45

FB i dont think you can compare years of research into the effects of smoking with some random research probably done on about 20 people.

However,it does make sense that men who do their fair share around the house would have more sex,as it takes the load off the woman (who usually is the one who does the lion share-or is it just me)which means she will have more energy for more interesting things!

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR Thu 29-Nov-12 11:29:06

Oh it's definitely true that men who do their share of domestic work are likely to have happier relationships. (Obviously it's not an absolute guarantee: there may be other factors that destroy a relationship. Total incompatibility would be one...) If a man doesn't do any domestic work and behaves as though it's his right to have it all done for him, and also his right to stick his dick in his wife, because she belongs to him, then the relationship is not only doomed but it's abusive.

OneMoreChap Thu 29-Nov-12 14:10:27

Gosh, what a busy thread.

People should talk to each other more - which is what is sounds as if OP and DP have done.

Rape myths:
Rape Definition
a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

_ A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,

_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents

so some reasonable belief may be possible.

Both genders ask for more sex sometimes, both genders assault each other, and in case we forget both genders are sexual abusers

FastidiaBlueberry Thu 29-Nov-12 18:03:42

Oh please.

Genders schmenders.

Let's not pretend that sexual violence is a gender-free zone. Overwhelmingly men commit sexual violence against women, the other way round is an anthill against an Everest.

No amount of glossing over the gendered nature of sexual violence can alter the figures.

OneMoreChap Thu 29-Nov-12 18:57:56


Yada yada

Men beat women.
Apart from the 40% of women who beat men.

I'm one of the anthill, and it ain't nice. Devalue me much?

Anskabel Thu 29-Nov-12 19:09:32

I agree it's the quality not quantity of sex that counts.

I've been with DP for 18 months - when we were first together we were at it every day, but now it's settled into once or twice a week and although I have a high sex drive, I'm more fulfilled now.

We usually have sex at the weekends, when we have the time and energy to spend hours over it. I've never been a fan of the "quickie". We're still as attracted to each other as ever.

DP is perfectly happy with this arrangement too - only the other day he said I probably have a slightly higher sex drive than he does, but he has a more demanding career than I do at the moment so I'm not surprised that sometimes he'd just rather cuddle up in bed and talk nonsense :-)

AmandaCooper Thu 29-Nov-12 19:17:20

Once or twice a week is pretty frequent though.

FastidiaBlueberry Thu 29-Nov-12 19:46:29

Over 90% of victims of DV are women. Contextualising is not de-valuing.

OneMoreChap Thu 29-Nov-12 20:08:23

90%? try 60% and falling.

That's DV.

Sexual assault - not seen figures for that...

cronullansw Fri 30-Nov-12 00:57:24

Careful Chap,

One can't be sticking up for the rapist bastards, it's not the done thing here.

Fastidia's declaration that 90% of DV are women might have to be reconsidered in light of the example cited by Chap from a Guardian article.

OneMoreChap Fri 30-Nov-12 09:21:34

One thing I won't do is stick up for rapists.
At all.

Consent is consent.
Not sure is without consent.
Being allowed to is without consent.

[Consent becomes more of an issue if you disallow groups of people agency for consent, but the underlying principle is clear].

AnyFuckingDude Fri 30-Nov-12 18:55:58

oh dear cronulla

shit stirring fail

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 01-Dec-12 09:08:10

60% if you believe MRA stats.

I don't and neither does the home office (because it's run by a bunch of militant feminists. Oh, wait.)

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 01-Dec-12 09:15:47

But it's interesting to see what sources people use when they quote stats.

Shows where they're coming from.

OneMoreChap Sat 01-Dec-12 11:17:41

Rape Crisis, Guardian and the Independent.

Yep, know what you mean.

"Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.

Similar or slightly larger numbers of men were subjected to severe force in an incident with their partner, according to the same documents. The figure stood at 48.6% in 2006-07, 48.3% the next year and 37.5% in 2008-09, Home Office statistics show.

The 2008-09 bulletin states: "More than one in four women (28%) and around one in six men (16%) had experienced domestic abuse since the age of 16. These figures are equivalent to an estimated 4.5 million female victims of domestic abuse and 2.6 million male victims."

In addition, "6% of women and 4% of men reported having experienced domestic abuse in the past year, equivalent to an estimated one million female victims of domestic abuse and 600,000 male victims".

Re-reading I see it was Parity who quoted the figures.

Since you're so sure these figures are wrong, do you have figures to hand for:
a) women offenders (some of whom will commiting DV to tother women)
b) male victims (some of whom are victims of other men)

FastidiaBlueberry Sat 01-Dec-12 22:37:18

I hope you're not pretending that Parity are anything like as reliable or respected as Rape Crisis.

The stats quoted by Women's Aid are accepted and reliable - The home office listens to them, not Parity and this is not because the HO is staffed by militant feminists.

There's an explanation here re whether to accept figures as being reliable or not.

If you click on the 2nd PDF, the figure that screams out regarding people subjected to 4+ attacks (IE not one-offs, "out of character" mistakes, self-defence, etc., but ongoing unambiguous violence), 89% are women and 11% are men. The reason WA uses this figure and the reason government agencies accept it, is because it is replicable, reliable and properly researched. Unlike the figures bandied about by MRA's, which are deeply shit tbh and any statistician who is just a neutral well-meaning mathematician will tell you that.

I simply cannot imagine why you want to argue that DV is not a gendered issue. It's like arguing that rape isn't a gendered issue. Just because it can (and does) happen to men, doesn't mean that makes it not gendered, anymore than arguing that racism isn't a race issue because sometimes black people are rude to white people. Why would you want to do that? What's the point of pretending that women are as violent as men, when time after time, research shows us that that is simply not true? I can understand that you feel very strongly that men being victims of DV should not be underplayed or denied and I agree with you; but pretending that women and men are equally likely to be perpetrators and victims, is just dishonest and doesn't help male victims of DV.

OneMoreChap Sun 02-Dec-12 13:01:27

Actually, it's on Mumsnet that I learned I'd suffered DV.
I'm actually on record as being incredulous about the new Home Office guidelines which included EA into DV.

The male reporting levels are increasing, as it is becoming recognised as an issue so...

The British Crime Survey figues were quoted by Parity - not made up by them - and as I indicated, the links I got them from included Rape Crisis - who recognise the issue. So, kindly FOTTOSOFAFOSM

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 13:02:53

You still haven't explained why you are so determined to pretend that DV is not a gendered issue.

It is.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sun 02-Dec-12 17:26:00

omc do you campaign on the subject of female violence on men elsewhere, than just on this female dominated chat forum ?


"_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents"

A sleeping person cannot give consent.

A man who waits for his partner to fall asleep before penetrating her (knowing that she objects to this behaviour) cannot have a reasonable belief that she consents

(leaving aside the issue of how one can hold a reasonable belief that an unconscious person gives consent).

- no consent
- no resonable belief that consent has been given

= rape

cronullansw Sun 02-Dec-12 18:33:50

My apologies to all, esp AF and OMC. When I said 'rapists bastards' I absolutely was not, and never will, condone rape.

I used the phrase poorly, I was referring to the MilFem stance that all men are (potential) rapists - a stance that I disagree with.

As for the statistics being bandied about, there is obv room for further debate on this topic. When reputable bodies are stating there is a surprisingly high number of male victims, using figures taken from Womens Aid to support Fastidias argument is a little odd, as not many blokes would (a) report their suffering and (b) if they did, it wouldn't be to a womens support group.

Offred Sun 02-Dec-12 18:34:22

In the rest of the cps guidelines penetration whilst sleeping is listed as considered to be always without consent IIRC.

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 18:49:39

cronulla, WA figures are not their own, they're taken from British Crime Survey etc., so they would have figures for male victims as well.

I don't understand your point about MilFem (what's that? Mother in Law feminists?) confused thinking all men are potential rapists.

I suppose on one hand you could say all men are potential rapists in the same way you can say that all people are potential murderers or potentially violent - none of us know what we're capable of until tested. The potential is there for everyone to be anything in that sense, so I'm not sure it means much to say all men are potential rapists, anymore than it means much to say all people are potential killers.

But in the main, it tends to be non-feminists who think all men are rapists - the ones who say that all a woman has to do is get drunk or flirt a bit or wear a mini-skirt and suddenly a previously unrapey, reasonable man will turn into a rapist. Feminists don't accept that: they think most men aren't rapists and women getting drunk, falling asleep, flirting or wearing sexy clothes won't make them into one. Men rape women because they are rapists, not because a woman's wearing a mini skirt or high heels or whatever.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sun 02-Dec-12 19:46:04

cronulla, thank you for your apology

but really, "MilFems" (I presume you mean "militant" in a derogatory way, like "You're one of those MillieTant hairylegged, dungaree wearers who hate men aren't you..") do not believe that all men are potential rapists

only rapists rape people

pennymixup Sun 02-Dec-12 20:21:06

Fastidia blueberry my research was based on lots of blokes actually. You lot seem to live in the dark ages when men sat around while their women did all the housework... I don't know anyone like that now, family, friends etc
Don't buy the more housework, more sex myth really

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 21:12:16

Really pennymixup?

You've done lots of peer-reviewed studies have you?

How fascinating, can you link to them? Where did you have them published?

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 21:15:09

Oh I didn't clock the Militant thing, of course.

I was confusing myself with MIL threads. grin

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 21:18:18

penny, you do understand that "research" doesn't mean "a few blokes I know" don't you?

For example, I don't know anyone who votes tory.*

My research concludes that the government ought to be made up of loads of radical, liberal and socialist feminists along with an assortment of Marxists, anarchists and socialists.

And yet, astonishingly, there appears to be a tory government.

I conclude that my research methodology might be faulty.

*Oh all right, I do know a few, but they're harmless really...

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sun 02-Dec-12 21:22:36

penny is also to be found on other threads doing a bit of the ole shit stirring

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 21:24:19

Ah, saynomore... <taps nose>

AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sun 02-Dec-12 21:25:49

it's a legitimate pastime for some people < shrugs >

FastidiaBlueberry Sun 02-Dec-12 21:29:15

Don't they have a TV? Books? Etchings?


AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sun 02-Dec-12 21:29:51

the XBox must be broke

pennymixup Sun 02-Dec-12 23:36:43

Never touch an Xbox and am not shit stirring just trying to get you to lighten up and not be so narrow minded about things. Every time someone posts about DHs not having enough sex etc you always come out with the same old line about him not doing enough around the house

pennymixup Sun 02-Dec-12 23:37:09


AnyFuckerForAMincePie Sun 02-Dec-12 23:38:00

Am light as a feather, meee

pennymixup Sun 02-Dec-12 23:42:16

perhaps they have sex at the same time as doing the housework....

differentnameforthis Mon 03-Dec-12 08:25:39

But in the main, it tends to be non-feminists who think all men are rapists - the ones who say that all a woman has to do is get drunk or flirt a bit or wear a mini-skirt and suddenly a previously unrapey, reasonable man will turn into a rapist. Feminists don't accept that: they think most men aren't rapists

See, in my experience of feminists & non, it is usually the feminists that believe all men are rapists. I know many feminists & they will argue with me & the non feminists among us (me being one) that all men rape.

suckmycockiness Mon 03-Dec-12 12:30:47

"pennymixup Sun 02-Dec-12 20:21:06
Fastidia blueberry my research was based on lots of blokes actually. You lot seem to live in the dark ages when men sat around while their women did all the housework... I don't know anyone like that now, family, friends etc
Don't buy the more housework, more sex myth really"

Sorry penny but I really disagree with your last sentence above. I think you need to take a wider view of the idea that men who do more housework have better and more frequent sex with their wives. It's about contributing more to a life you have built together and also respecting a partner enough to realise that she is not there to cook, clean, look after the kids (which is a full time job) and then give you the best shag of your life in bed too. It's about realising that you are not ENTITLED to sex, that both have to WANT sex. In a healthy relationship one partner does not get to contribute unequally to a relationship and only enjoy all the good bits: sex, affection, being pampered, dinner served up, clean house, well balanced kids...

I think other people on here who "spout the same old nonsense" when asking questions such as "does your DH help around the house?", "why is he not tired when you are?" are actually showing that it could just be a trivial issue such as the OP's DH not realising that she does so much around the house, outside etc, and he does not really have an equal share in such duties, and therefore she is tired, and does not have the energy for sex. And I speak from experience. I don't think that they are trying to make the OP's husband sound useless. A lot of men, yes, even in this day and age see certain tasks as only for women to do, and a lot of women are guilty of the same gender stereotypes.

And spoonyfucker I really liked your long post about making sex a priority being beneficial for your relationship. Hit the nail on the head for my relationship very much, but my DH has also had to take into account how I always did the lion's share of domestic work and childcare, after a 9-5 day at college, while he after a 9-5 day at work would just crash out the sofa energised for a night of sex!!! So, we've sorted out the issue of equal contributing to our household, and now we are working on focusing on each other more romantically. Sometimes, the housework just does not get done, and we will chill out with a glass of wine and off to bed for a night of romance instead of going to bed tired. Other times I have to say "Which one would you like to do - washing up or making the salad? Putting our daughter to bed or ...?" etc. Before it would be me doing everything, and then crashing out to bed tired and him disappointed with no affection or sex.

Obviously people can have much greater problems when it comes to their sex lives but in a normal, healthy relationship it's perfectly valid to as if the OP's husband contributes equally round the house. And I actually think that it is very positive that those were some of the first posts in response to the OP.

spoonyfucker Tue 11-Dec-12 09:03:01

suckmycockiness - thank you for your kind words.

It seems that good sex in mature marriages is not, or not just, the end result of good deeds by one partner for the other. Sure, it can't flourish where there is uneven lack of effort in day to day stuff and there is resentment, but the key seems to be to recognise sex as a source from which renewed goodwill and enthusiasm can flow. It took us about 15 years to "get" that.

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