Mumsnet Talk

A brief background:
I met this lady 5 years ago at a toddler group. Her DD is 2 yrs older than mine and we've nothing in common so I never tried to encourage the friendship but she is very persistent. I also felt sorry for her as she's had a hard life.

I noticed along the way that her friendships never last long (usually 6mo max) and she will often fall out spectacularly with people and be very rude to them and then seem to wonder why they no longer want to see her. She has no contact with her family or ex-partner for the same reasons.

2yrs ago her DD was taken into care due to allegations of emotional abuse against her. At first I didn't believe it as I had never seen anything to suggest it (little girl always well dressed and fed and lots of toys etc) but gradually as I've supported her through long legal proceedings I've begun to feel that I was not told the whole truth.

She has really sucked me dry in terms of time and energy expended on her not to mention constant borrowing of small amounts of money, lifts, use of my internet, phone, printer etc. DH and my DC were sick of her always being around their home. It also was not reciprocated by any care for me during hard times in my life. I decided finally that enough is enough and told her that I'm not giving that level of support anymore. I said that I was not going to do anything related to the court case and limit to social chat once a week or so max.

This resulted in her sending me many abusive text messages and e-mails accusing me of stealing a toy that I thought had been freely given to my DC (I sent it back recorded delivery) and various other things. Also calling and hanging up late at night just to disturb me. I actually feel physically sick when I see there are messages from her. I worry what else she might do as she is so unhinged. Make malicious reports against me? Vandalise my house? Make trouble for my kids at school?

I am planning to send this letter and then block her from everything and never respond again but I am frightened of provoking her further. What do you think I should do?

^I find the tone of your e-mails and text messages aggressive and intimidating and feel quite distressed when I receive them (I don?t know if this is your intention but its how it comes across). I cannot now think of any legitimate reason you could have to contact us since I returned the toy. For these reasons I am from now on going to delete any messages from you without reading them. Neither DH nor I will be making any further response to any communications from you via whatever medium.

In your e-mail to DH you actually said that you were sorry to have upset me, that it was not your intention and that you did appreciate all we have done for you in the past. If you meant that then I hope that you will respect our decision not to have any more contact at least for past times sake.

If however you do continue to contact us despite being clearly told not to I will regard this as harassment and reluctantly I will be forced to seek advice as to what action I can take to prevent it.^

I wouldn't write to her. Instead, I would just stop responding to her. Call the police if needs be

I wouldn't send it actually - you can't deal reasonably with someone who is harassing you.

Totally ignore, keep a record of any contact from her end, & if/when you feel her messages are aggressive or intimidating, contact the police who'll go round & Have A Word?

With any luck she'll lose interest if you don't engage...people like this feed on attention.

Tbh I wouldn't send anything. I would continue to not answer calls or messages. I would have a word with local police about aggressive behaviours and calls.
It sounds like a nightmare and so sorry your dealing with this person

I wouldn't send it, just ignore her. This is probably normall for her.
Don't waste any more time thinking about her x

Agree with previous posters, do not bother sending it,n keep a diary and call the police.

Please don't send a letter, contact her in any way or respond when she contacts you. Sending a letter will result in her feeling she HAS to reply, and then you will be on the receiving end of yet more abuse.

Please cut all contact with her. End of story.

She is emotionally abusing you and your family - SS have taken steps to protect her child, please do the same for yourself and your children.

you cannot reason with the unreasonable, just block here everywhere you can.

I guess I just thought it was fair to give her a final warning since I haven't up to now said no contact at all. Before the abusive stuff started I would genuinely have been happy to have some limited contact.
I have mostly been not responding unless it was demanding a factual response ie I posted x item recorded delivery on x date and I have the receipt.
I also feel so scared that if she has no outlet she will do something malicious.
She does have form on this. She gleefully told me in the past she'd reported her ex for benefit fraud and drunk driving both of which were untrue.
She has made sort of veiled threats relating to my job eg saying I'm unprofessional (obviously I was not helping her in my prof capacity) and I'm afraid she'll make trouble there.

I agree with the others too. If you need to reoprt her to the police in the future you will need to have kept her emails/texts so perhaps don't delete tham just yet (can you move them to a file without reading them?)

Don't write to the crank just get the police on her if it continues xxxx

Why would you give her a warning?! She sounds like a nutcase.

You cannot approach this as though you are dealing with a rationale person. You're not.

Your first priority is to protect your DH and DC. Not worry about being " fair" to her.

Lease don't ignore the basically unanimous advice on this thread.

Could you speak to your manager or whoever it is she could make accusations to, and let them know about the situation, so that if she does decide to be malicious then they already have the heads up from you?

I appreciate this may not be possible depending on what you do, but it might be an option.

If you think she is likely to try to cause damage in/to your life I think I would speak to the police about it, tell them a bit about her and what she has done and may do to you. They will be able to advise you as what best to do. And then if she does report you/threaten you, it is already logged and can be acted upon.

Could you give your boss a heads up?

I really rue the day I ever got involved.
I have made a lot of excuses for her and not really had my eyes open that she will never change.
It gradually dawned on me that I was only told what she wanted me to hear and that in all probability she did abuse her DD. Certainly that was what the judge decided.
I have seen her behave like this to other people but I guess I was useful so its not happened to me before.
It is really unpleasant and I just want it to stop.
She will leave it a few weeks at a time then there will be a flurry of stuff for a few days for no apparent reason so you never feel safe.
I have learnt a hard lesson.

Save all the texts, emails and messages you get from her as proof she is harassing you if you do need to involve the police.

Don't send that letter. I think you taking control of how the friendship will be from now on, considering how close you were, how isolated she is and how vulnerable she is with SS involvement, it is no surprise to me she turned on you. No excuse to abuse you. Next time let a vulnerable and unstable friend know that you are changing the "rules of your friendship" and that you no longer want to rescue them, let them down more gently.

I agree with other posters not to send the letter and just don't have any further communication with her.

Keep a record of everything she sends you emails, texts etc and if she continues contact the police. They will pay her a visit and give her a warning re harassment.

OK. Point taken I won't send it. I will just ignore.
I have considered police but didn't know if they would be interested.
I have kept the emails and texts over the last 3 months so maybe that's enough. They accuse me of being a thief and a liar, use abusive language and sort of suggest I should watch out but not any really clear threat. One said wasn't I worried what people would say about me at DDs school when they know how horrible I am and another about my unprofessional behaviour and she'd expect better of someone in my job. Not exactly a direct threat maybe I read too much in.
Good point that having my complaint on record first might help if she does pull something.
I would be sooo embarrassed to tell my manager or anything. I'm sure they would just think I'm such an idiot for getting involved.

MrsjR I honestly did think I was letting her down gently.
I had misgivings for a long while but I stuck in there through the final court case and final contact and it just seemed there would never be a good time.
We had an argument about her wanting me to lie for her which I will never, ever do and that was sort of the catalyst.
The letter I wrote I thought was very carefully worded and I deleted a lot of versions of it. Tried to make it about me not her etc, did offer ongoing contact just not to the level it had been. Maybe it was cowardly but I didn't think I could say what I wanted to say in a conversation.
I think my major mistake was to take on too much in the first place, fail to put boundaries earlier and let her get so dependent on me. I was always going to fail.

Have you heard of the drama triangle? The previous triangle had friend as victim at bottom, you as rescuer at middle and SS as persecutor at top. SS left, you had no rescuing to do so wanted to leave the triangle, your friend wanted drama to continue, fed up being the victim she moved to persucutor and thought she would give you a taste of being a victim.

Now a person can stay out of the drama, suck up the harrassment until she gets bored, or you can move to persecutor get the police to rescue you and put your friend back in her place as a victim.

Victim, rescuer and persecutor are all getting needs met in a drama triangle.

that's really interesting mrsewing I might have to google that

Any chance you can change your number and email address? We also got caller ID on the phone when we were getting horrible calls.
I would suggest you talk to your manager and maybe school, explain the whole thing. If your as friendly as you come across, they wouldn't be surprised you wanted to help, so don't feel about it.

Wow that's a very interesting perspective.
I am aware that I do have a 'rescuing' tendency or whatever you'd say but I had not really got that clarity on my own motivation in this situation.
So right now the best way to exit is ignore?
And way back should I have refused to play rescuer?

If it was me I would take her call, say something like I am sorry you are hurting, as an adult I have to care for myself, be happy and take care of yourself, bye, broken record every time.

I had thought of changing all my contacts and will do if it doesn't stop just I've had these for a long time and there's always the worry you'll forget to tell someone.
We have caller ID so I know its her (or can be witheld no.) but by then the aim of getting me out of bed, charging down the stairs worried a family member has died is achieved.

X.posts.

Rescuers are enablers using drama to distract themselves, she needed to be brought to the library showed how to use the pc and printer when you sat there for support reading a book, not you beavering away when she sat there like a babywoman.

Take some comfort from knowing this person has a reputation and an officially-known history, so if things escalated from now you'd have that on your side. Hopefully she'll move into the next drama soon. You may recall how things petered out with her previous friends-then-enemies when she attached herself to you.

I think there are some online organisations that can help and advise you, some that have been setup in individuals' names perhaps to deal with stalking and bullying? I'm sure there.must be some... And of course the police or ss (who must be well aware of her tactics) .

Like you say, a lesson learned. I hope ignoring her helps this end quickly and quietly. Please don't worry about her threats - ignore, ignore and deal with it if it happens.

Interestingly she never actually calls me so I could speak to her just hangs up or indirect stuff texts and e-mails mainly. She was always like this with other people too and would try to get me to ring or write letters instead of a direct conversation.

I could try always responding to emails and texts with something like that. How would that be better than ignoring?

You are giving boundaries, wishing her well and the be happy bit is a reverse psychology thing. Should stop her trying to persecute you, it is staying in middle as leaving drama creates a victim.

Re: phone calls. Maybe try having her numbers blocked from yours? If not, yes changing your numbers may be a good idea.

If you can be strong and ignore all contact I'm sure she'll move on soon. Just don't start to feel sorry for her when that happens! All rose-tinted "she wasn't that bad, she was having a hard time" sympathy .

Ouch Mrs jR!
An enabler using drama to distract myself.
Shall have to think about that.

I did try a lot of signposting to CAB, women's resources etc but none were so convenient or cheap as me. It would have done her a lot more favours I now see if I had done less. I was quite frightened of her reactions to being told no which were extreme. It seemed like it was an all or nothing situation but maybe it wasn't.

Fundamentally as I've now realised she needed someone a whole lot more skilled than me to handle these dynamics. I did even try to look into advocacy in care cases which was what was needed but this only seemed to exist in London.

Thanks for your posts too orchidee. Good point that her known history should help convince people that any allegations are untrue.

No she needed to learn the skills herself.

Yes ouch, I felt the same when it was pointed out to me. I still get drawn in from time to time.

I really think you must ignore her texts, emails etc. From what you've written, this woman needs someone to blame at all times. Currently it's you. Taking responsibility for her decisions and the consequences is alien to her, why would she start now? No she needs someone to blame for the problems in her life, currently its you, so anything you say will be twisted to fit her view of the world. She cannot change her opinion and say "oh actually I have been unreasonable, here's someone trying to help, she did her best but the court case was always going to end that way..." No, her head would explode. She's in denial and you can't change this.

Do zilch . Don't pick up the phone or respond to anything at all. Engaging on any level will just encourage her to keep going bitter experience. If she doesn't stop the police may have a word, they did in my case, but I think it does have to be prolonged and excessive before they involve themselves.

It can feel uncomfortable at first, especially when you have been fairly close to someone, but total disengagement is the way to go. The majority of people will stop if they are getting nothing back.

Disengaging is the only way with someone like this.

You cannot be rational with an irrational person.

Mrs jR v. interested to know how you have recognised and contained rescuer tendencies. eg any good books or do I need therapy?!

It has been pointed out to me before, I am aware that I do it but I think I normally have a sanctioned, boundaried outlet through my job. I was on mat leave when I met this lady and again when the court case started ?connected.

If her recent communications since you suggested reducing support and contact have become abusive then I really think you must close this off. You tried the honest approach when you said you were taking a step back. Her response was to attack you. This is surely a long-running pattern of behaviour for her, with all the other ex-friends finding they had to stop all contact.

Really ought to go to bed now but thanks all for really interesting perspectives and advice. I love mumsnet for that. Will still check thread tomorrow and won't send letter!

Read.

I found "The games people play" Eric Berne was a good place to start.

I struggle when it comes to being a parent with rescuer role, gets me into trouble.

Rescuer and victim were my roles. I moved to persecutor a few times as well.

Thing to ask yourself is what are you distracting yourself from?

so can you move around the triangle in one relationship mrsewing?

OP I think you should send her one final message stating unequivocally you want no further contact with her (and keep a copy), because if she does continue to harass you and you go to the police they'll ask you if you've made it clear the contact is unwelcome (this is what I was told by Women's Aid when I was being harassed by somebody). She does sound irrational and probably won't heed what you say, but you'll have done the right thing.

Yes, think of an alcholic and their spouce.

A night out starys, spouce wants to rescue situation, akly is looking for an excuse to drink uses controling spouce's behaviour turns spouce into perpretrator who ruins fun, alky turns into perpretor spending money, making a fool, ruining next day with hangover etc, turning spouce into a victim. Next day spouce gives alky silent treatment, has a go etc, turning alky into victim and spouce into perpretrator.

I'd just ignore her

Attention seekers thrive on attention be it good or bad.

When nothing comes back she should move on.

Unless she becomes more scary to be honest I'd call the police then.

Thank you MrsEwing, that is exactly the relationship I was thinking of funnily enough! You have opened my eyes!

It is detailed as a game in the book I mentioned called "alcholic".

I one going in with one of my dc, with steeling food. She would set up situations so that she could put me as a perpretrator and herself as a victim, then she could justify steeling food, she would feel she was no longer the victim then the guilt and shame would set in and I would eventually note the missing food be perpretrator/victim then try to rescue her.

I then kept pointing out to her the game as I spotted her setting me up, I would say what was going on, she would get mad at me, I wouldn't engage in game just break it down. I would then find missing food, again say "so you stole to feel bad about yoursel, to make me feel bad, I am not doing this anymore" it took months and months for the game to end, she kept trying it on.

I remember that book on the bookshelves at home, wish I had read it now...
(goes to Amazon)....very very interesting MrsE

You could send her one last text or email first saying you have decided you do not want to continue having any more communication with her (no further explanation is necessary from you). Then block and ignore. Keep it simple.

She sounds like an absolute nutter and these people do exist, I am really sorry you have met someone like that. If it were me I would tell my manager, have a meeting with him/her re. your concerns, I think there is a good chance you will be received with sympathy.

I would also keep records of all her past harrassment and abuse. Its very unfortunate, but I think she will calm down within a year or so and she will find new outlets for her insanity. Her poor daughter too

Agree also with the rationale behind TheKindnessofStrangers comment : "one final message stating unequivocally you want no further contact with her (and keep a copy), because if she does continue to harass you and you go to the police they'll ask you if you've made it clear the contact is unwelcome"

Yes, a simple e-mail - 'Please stop contacting me and my family. If you continue I will report this to police as harassment.'

I am really torn between the advice to ignore, which is excellent advice, or to report it to police, which once they have given her a formal warning, may stop it for good, or on the other hand, may inflame the situation - but at least if it inflames, she will be prosecuted.

TBH you have more than enough to pursue a charge of harassment. It only needs to have happened on 2 or more occasions.

What a nut-job.

<wonders if I am a rescuer - I too have that book on a shelf at my mum's - must read it>

After watching 'Living with My Stalker' I wouldn't send her anything further. Just report to the police with your evidence of abuse.

Expat, I saw that too. How shocking!

Was going to mention it, but didn't want to freak out op.

Some people just don't like rejection.

I read The Games People Play as part of my university course - it is absolutley brilliant and thank you for reminding me MrsJRE - must reread it.

My mum bought it for me when I was about 14 - it went over my head a bit, and I thought she was making a passive aggressive point.

Must read it again.

Purple - what was your degree course in?

Beryl - this particular bit (it was one of those 1980s modular degrees) was sociology. I found it useful for analysing my boyfriend's bad behavior at the time

Ha at your mum being passive aggressive!