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Does this adult/dc relationship seem odd???

(134 Posts)
Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 09:15:04

I am a single parent and have at times lived at my mums with my dd and my mums partner! My mum is 55 partner is 32!

My dd is 5 and I am uncomfortable with the relationship between her and my mums partner! He is generally very quiet but has always seemed close to dd, which I was fine with because she practically grew up in my mums house and still spends a lot of time there!

In the summer I became uncomfortable when dd went away with my mum and her partner! When they came back he seemed very close to dd and I just didn't like how they played together and it all seemed to close for comfort.

I had spoke to my mum about this and told her I don't want dd sleeping in my mums bed with my mum and partner as its not right for a grown man to sleep with a 5year old that he is not related to.

A couple of weeks ago dd told me that they had all slept in the same bed again! So I feel like my mum is not respecting my wishes!

Also in the summer after the holiday I noticed the partner was asking my dd for kisses and when she kissed him they kissed on the lips. I spoke to my mum and told her this is not acceptable and have since noticed that he now kisses her on the cheek!

I just feel a grown man should be making the boundeaies with a child but instead find myself telling dd, don't kiss him etc!

I think I will have another chat with my mum about it and possibly the partner too.

Fancydrawers Tue 20-Nov-12 09:25:26

You are right for not wanting them to sleep in the same bed - that's a big no...but as for the rest? I think you're being a bit hysterical. Their age gap is none of your business. And if you were so uncomfortable letting DD go away with them, why did you?

Fearisforsuckers Tue 20-Nov-12 09:29:36

Trust your instincts and set firmer boundaries, but tbh I would stop her from sleeping there or going on holidays all together unless you're there, just cut the visits down to daytimes and see how you feel then
Also have the conversation with dd about how her body belongs to her and nobody has the right to touch her (only you/your mum can bath her etc)

Anniegetyourgun Tue 20-Nov-12 09:30:37

I think kissing children on the lips is a bit no-no too. Children you're not related to especially.

Does DD have to stay round at Grandma's, go on holidays without you etc? I'd be drawing back from that if you have any doubts at all. Maybe there's nothing funny going on, but wouldn't you feel too awful for words if there were, or if something happened later on? This is your child, and you have every right to say what goes with her upbringing and who is allowed to get close to her. (Agree the age gap is neither here nor there.)

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 20-Nov-12 10:13:03

Why only 'possibly' the partner? If you don't like the way he behaves with your DD then tell him straight to stop it. If it's not acceptable for your DD to be in their bed or for him to be kissing her on the lips (and I agree with you on both counts) then stand up for yourself, stand up for her and tell him/them as much. Don't let her go away with them if you have suspicions. You will kick yourself if she comes to any harm.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Tue 20-Nov-12 10:19:12

OK, I have more reason than most to be paranoid about this sort of thing but ..........

It sounds to me like he is behaving exactly as a grandparent would and you are letting your opinion of the age gap between them colour your judgement.

If you are unhappy I agree with the others though, stop contact between them. I can however see why your mother takes exception, Does he consider himself her grandfather rather than unrelated??

izzyizin Tue 20-Nov-12 10:34:34

This behaviour is singularly inappropriate and I second what Cogito has said.

Please can you clarify this statement I spoke to my mum and told her this is not acceptable and have since noticed that he now kisses her on the cheek!? Are you saying that your mum's partner now kisses your dd on the cheek - or that he kisses your mum on the cheek?

Disclaimer: this izzy is NOT having a baby again.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 10:44:01

I'm afraid I would find this unacceptable and downright creepy. I don't think you're being paranoid at all, OP. Your instincts are right.

The kissing on the lips issue is one that divides opinion. If you search MN you'll see there have been threads on that very subject. Some people would never do it, others see nothing wrong in it. I don't like it - I think kissing on the lips is for lovers. DD, DH and I always kiss on the cheeks, head, forehead but never the lips. For us, it just wouldn't feel right.

The answer is not to allow any more unsupervised contact with him - or your mum, if you can't trust her supervision. No more overnight stays or holidays. This might be inconvenient for you, but I think you should go with your instincts on this.

Why not get a couple of these books to read with your daughter - you should be able to find them on Amazon, or even in your local library:

Have a good look round the website while you're there.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 10:47:16

Here's one of the threads I remember:

Note that it was about kissing your own children on the lips. I think most people would think a grown adult kissing an unrelated child on the lips completely gross.

duletty Tue 20-Nov-12 10:57:22

Can I check about the kissing on the lips?

I kiss all my children on the lips, dd 3 particularly loves a pouty mwah type kiss...all gp kiss my children like this and have never raised an eyebrow

I wouldn't kiss my niece/nephews like this or any other relatives on the lips but have always done with my dc....

Would people raise an eyebrow at this....I'm genuinely asking...not mock it didnt occur to me

In respect to the ops question, I believe in following your vibes if you have an uncomfortable feeling

Although we regularly have the dc appearing at night ( 8,5,3) and don't have a second thought about them getting into bed with us

duletty Tue 20-Nov-12 10:58:59

Argh ment to post quicker...had to help with peeling some stickers

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 20-Nov-12 11:00:25

"Would people raise an eyebrow at this"

I think they might.

mcmooncup Tue 20-Nov-12 11:03:29

Yes, IMO, odd.
Stand up and be counted.
Spidey senses don't often go off for no reason.
I'm sorry but I think the age gap between your mum and her DP in itself offers some indication of his level of emotional stability.
I'll get shot down for that comment I know.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Tue 20-Nov-12 11:06:31

I kiss my children on the lips, I have friends who have stopped their DCs from doing it (kissing them) and I think it is very very sad that they see something wrong in the innocent behaviour of small DCs.

I believe my mum kisses them on the lips, as I rarely leave them with anyone except immediate close family and one other, I have never given it any thought.

They are sadly, at 2 and 4, only well aware of what to do if someone does something inappropriate though, I have been teaching them for over a year now about what and what isn't allowed, my poor neighbour, she is my example, you aren't even allowed to let X do it or go anywhere with X without mummy and daddy knowing.

Its all about teaching them their boundaries, we shouldn't have to teach children this age how to protect themselves, but bitter experience has taught me, it is no good teaching them about inappropriate touching in a woolly, if someone does something that makes you feel uncomfortable way, relying on a child's judgement call. I am specific in what isnt allowed to happen and what they must do if someone tries to do something wrong.

duletty Tue 20-Nov-12 11:07:35


Started reading the other thread and I really didn't know there was a to kiss or not to kiss....I'm going to keep an eye out on others and see whats happening. My dd and I always have a big hug and multiple kisses when I drop her at preschool....I wonder if the teachers think this is inappropriate

Well I'm 36 and I never knew this!

There is a natural transition I suppose away from lips tp cheeks as the children get older...I don't kiss any other adult on the lips

Will ponder this today and also have a discreet look around the playground to see how other parents greet their dc

With regards to the original thread I would also be extremely uneasy at this whole relationship between her partner and your DD.

Your own boundaries with regards to both your mother and her man need to be raised a whole lot higher than they currently are.

I am also wondering on a much wider level what a 32 year old man is doing with a woman who is basically old enough to be his own mother.

PeppermintPasty Tue 20-Nov-12 11:13:19

I agree with standing up for yourself and going with your instincts. Talk to him directly, tell him what your boundaries for your children are.

I kiss my dc on the lips ie a quick ott "mwah" or a quick peck, so does their daddy, but that's it!

And thank you izzyizin for the disclaimer. I had been meaning to bring that up with you wink

imogengladhart Tue 20-Nov-12 11:13:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 11:14:59

This isn't an issue about kissing your own children on the lips. It's not even an issue about whether the GM kissess the GC on the lips. I wouldn't have a problem with that. For some people it might seem perfectly natural.

Where I would have an issue is with GM's 32 year old boyfriend - or indeed any unrelated adult - kissing my child on the lips.

I would also have an issue with my child being in bed with any couple who aren't their mum and dad.

ClippedPhoenix Tue 20-Nov-12 11:18:07

If I were you OP I'd stop the over night thing straight away. As for sleeping with them, well! That's just totally inappropriate to say the least. So is the mouth kissing and the going away on breaks.

In fact, I'd do the you and DD visiting only from now on.

This is way too wrong for me.

PeppermintPasty Tue 20-Nov-12 11:19:29

Yes exactly. If I wasn't clear I meant "that's it" ie my children don't kiss anyone else on the lips. Their gp seem to kiss to the side anyway, and that's fine by me. Strangers/ non relations, no thanks.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 20-Nov-12 11:23:19

i don't think the behavior as such is worrying, my children's uncle (my sisters partner, so not blood related) kisses my children on the lips, as he does with his own girls. he has bathed mine many times and i would also not bat an eyelid if one of mine stayed over and ended up sharing a bed with him and my sister.

but if you are not comfortable, or have a gut instinct then she is your child and you must do what you think is right.

Anniegetyourgun Tue 20-Nov-12 11:25:32

Hmm, I had an uncle who used to kiss his nieces on the lips too (he did it to me at my wedding so XH went completely ballistic at me - go figure!). But then he was a dirty old pervert.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 20-Nov-12 11:29:23

it's probably not on to kiss other people's kids on the lips, however kissing your own? i'm totally creeped out by the fact that someone might look at me kissing my own child and infer something dark from that. creeped out and a bit pissed off, tbh. world's gone mad.

Fearisforsuckers Tue 20-Nov-12 11:42:47

Me and dh kiss my ds goodbye when he goes to school but he is of young school age...I suspect he wouldn't want to as he gets older anyway and he knows only to accept cheek kisses from aunties grandparents etc and hand shakes from uncles or family friends
I'm a bit shocked that some may think its unacceptable to kiss your own children mind and I would hope not to be judged that I do give my ds a kiss goodbye

strumpetpumpkin Tue 20-Nov-12 11:47:52

is it a new relationship between your mother and her partner? Does he see himself as her grandparent?

From what you have said, I wouldnt be particularly worried. Sounds innocent. Is there anything else than what youve said?

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 11:51:22

I don't think anyone is shocked, or thinks it's unacceptable to kiss your own children! No-one is saying that at all.

imnotmymum Tue 20-Nov-12 11:51:57

Your child, you know best and of course if you feel uncomfortable then do what you have to. However there are a lot of great fun-loving men out there who just live to play with kids and if he has had the up bringing to kiss on lips or whatever I guess that is what he feels comfortable doing, Do not see what is not there.

MrsMelons Tue 20-Nov-12 12:02:11

I had no idea that kissing children you are related to/close to on the lips was inappropriate - SAYS WHO?

I understand that this does sound a bit uncomfortable but unfortunately you won't really know if it is something inappropriate or not unless your DD said.

My DCs will get in bed with their grandparents in the morning or their Auntie/Uncle and I would never think anything of it.

If it was a close relative with a random boyfriend/girlfriend I would not be comfortable as its a bit weird IMO until they are long term involved in the DCs lives.

I think some of the others are right - the appropriateness will depend on how your mum and he view their relationship and their relationship with your DD.

MrsMelons Tue 20-Nov-12 12:03:18

Olgaga - it has been said on MN many times!

Furoshika Tue 20-Nov-12 12:04:33

What is clear in your post is that you're uncomfortable.
I think it is worrying that he kisses your dd on the lips. Yes we as parents do that (until it doesn't happen any more) and yes grandparents do that sometimes, but it isn't something I would be happy with my sons' stepgrandfather doing (and he doesn't do it).

You are uncomfortable and that is enough to justify taking control and making sure - with no fuss - that certain things don't happen. If you're unhappy with them taking your dd away, too, then don't allow that to happen either.

imogengladhart Tue 20-Nov-12 12:13:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 20-Nov-12 12:26:47

"he knows only to accept cheek kisses from aunties grandparents etc and hand shakes from uncles or family friends"

i find that a bit sad. not critisising you, that is what you feel comfortable with then that's your right as a parent. but i find it sad that as a society people have become suspicious of men to the point where an auntie can kiss a child but an uncle may only shake their hand.

Dahlen Tue 20-Nov-12 12:26:56

It's impossible for us to know whether your mum's DP is behaving innocently or with more sinister intent. The appropriateness of his actions depends entirely on context, such as the personalities involved, the length and state of your mum's relationship with her DP, the relationship he has with your DD, your DD, your feelings about him, etc. None of which we can assess objectively.

All that matters is that if you are uncomfortable about it then you have every right to say so and put a stop to things carrying on as they are.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 12:27:11

I've always kissed DS on the lips and never knew it was an issue for some people until I came on mumsnet. As for the lover comment; I'm not tonguing him, it's just a peck on the lips fgs.

OP tbh I can't see anything wrong in what you've written about his behaviour towards your dd but if you don't feel right about it then stop the overnight visits and holidays.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 12:35:19

Yes but this thread isn't about kissing your own children on the lips.

OP is seeking reassurance because she feels uncomfortable about her mum's 32 year old boyfriend kissing her 5 year old DD on the lips. And this:

I just feel a grown man should be making the boundeaies with a child but instead find myself telling dd, don't kiss him etc!

I think she's right to feel uncomfortable, and that she should listen to her instincts. It's not about being "politically incorrect". It's about protecting a child and helping them learn to refuse unwanted physical contact.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 12:38:47

olgaga I was referring to the previous posts about kissing your own dc on the lips, I've replied to the OP in the next paragraph...

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 12:39:20

And I would certainly be annoyed if I were you about the sharing a bed business. Especially having told your mum you were unhappy about it.

But the answer to that is simple - no more sleepovers.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 12:40:09

Sorry, should have said, I was responding to MrsMelons.

Furoshika Tue 20-Nov-12 12:43:57

What stands out for me about the OP is that you can imagine her saying the same things in retrospect, very easily:
he used to kiss dd on the lips, I thought it was odd at the time.
I didn't like the way they played together after going on holiday without me.
My mother ignored my request to not have them in the bed together.

It doesn't mean that anything is wrong, of course it doesn't.

But all of those things are avoidable if they make the OP uncomfortable. I would have my beady eye on this bloke, big time, I have to say. (But I am a suspicious cow who had known too many people whose parents ignored abuse.)

quietlysuggests Tue 20-Nov-12 12:46:32

If I were to read in say Closer magazine an article
"I was abused by my grans toyboy"
where it detailed that no sane sensible put a stop to a 32 year old man sleeping in the same bed and kissing on the lips a FIVE year old TO WHOM HE IS NOT RELATED
well I would think to myself - in what world do people live where they do not think that the man is a fucking perve???
I would not be handing my child over to him to take away for nights!!!!
Aagh is this a wind up?
Seriously woman. Step up.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 20-Nov-12 12:53:22

perhaps the really tough question it, if you weren't a single parent would you be letting him have this level of access to your child?

Trust your instincts!

It is not unheard of for men to develop relationships with women purely in order to have access to young children.

I think his behaviour is entirely inappropriate and for your Mum to prioritise her partners wishes (bet they are his wishes as opposed to hers) over your needs and feelings is a huge red flag that she is being well and truly manipulated here and therefore cannot be trusted (at best her judgement is warped).

please put your foot down and don't let this man have contact with DD

Though your DD could possibly be safer in the bed with the 2 of them, than in a bed on her own in another room which this man can access. I would cease all sleepovers immediately.

MrsMelons Tue 20-Nov-12 12:57:17

I do agree that kissing on the lips is not ok in all situations - I was just commenting on someone up thread saying about the kissing on the lips not being ok.

I really think you have to put a stop to this - I can't imagine putting my DCs in a situation where I felt uncomfortable in this way - rightly or wrongly.

We can't leave our DCs with FIL as he was/is an alcoholic (apparently doesn't drink) but turned up to look after our niece and appeared to have been drinking. We couldn't be sure and of course he denied it but we will never chance leaving them alone with him in ANY circumstances. We may be wrong in this as there may not have been a problem but you can't be too careful IMO.

Someone very close to me ignored abuse within the family as they did not believe it was true but it was and the person has now been convicted. It was her husband (the DDs stepfather) - it seemed so unlikely but the signs were there and ignored - devastating all round!

imogengladhart Tue 20-Nov-12 13:00:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

THERhubarb Tue 20-Nov-12 13:05:19

This thread will get hysterical.

However OP, if you are still reading......
I would always say "trust your instinct." My stepfather is one such creep. My best friend told me about a year ago that she never felt comfortable with him at my house but could never put her finger on why.
He was an emotionally abusive man and would openly leer at women. I saw him rubbing the back of my 17yo niece underneath her clothing, patting her bum and tickling the inside of her thighs. She had never said anything because she didn't know what to say, she knew it wasn't right but he wasn't actually doing anything illegal iykwim? Because I witnessed this I spoke out and was immediately cut off and shunned by members of my own family as they accused me of calling him a pervert.

Their reaction was so over the top I still wonder whether he has actually done something wrong at some point?

What I am trying to say is that sometimes you cannot explain why you feel uncomfortable with someone. When you write it down it appears trivial and there are many people who would tell you to get a grip etc. But you alone are in that situation and there is no denying your feelings.

Some people on here have unkindly said that this is your problem rather than his and that you are discriminating because of the age difference between your mum and him. Trouble is, if they carry on making you feel that this is all in your head and to push your doubts to the back of your mind, they could actually be encouraging a situation that may well be very wrong.

It's dangerous to give such advice in such a situation I feel. We are not there, we do not know these people or you and we cannot possibly understand your feelings.

So, to be ultra cautious I would say to go with your feelings.

This is what I would do:

Sit your dd down and have the discussion with her about keeping herself safe. There is a book called, I think, Sydney the Snail Plays Safe and it covers pretty much everything in there. I told my kids that if anyone touches them in an area that is covered by their underwear, they must tell me at once. It also emphasises in the book about children listening to their feelings and telling someone if they feel uncomfortable for any reason.

I would then speak to BOTH your mother and her partner and explain that you don't feel it is appropriate for your dd to share a bed with them anymore as she is growing up etc, and you would like your wishes to be respected by them.

I think you can also check someone now by contacting your local police authority? Just to put your mind at rest? After all, he does have a lot of contact with your dd and if he was a nursery worker he'd have to have a CRC. I don't really see any difference between some in a professional capacity and someone who you may not know that well, who also has full access to your children. You have every right to ask questions.

Remember that people on this thread are giving advice based only on general knowledge. No-one can step into your shoes and tell you what you are thinking and why you are thinking it. Your child is paramount to you and so as her mother, you obviously want to make sure that she is as safe as possible. That is not hysteria, that is common sense and I'm sure most posters under the same circumstances would do the same.

Anniegetyourgun Tue 20-Nov-12 13:08:15

That's the point, indeed, MrsMelons. Why chance it? The consequences of wrongly suspecting the guy of having evil designs are not a fraction as dire as the potential consequences of failing to suspect him if he does. We're not talking about calling the police on his ass here. His life won't be ruined by the OP being a bit careful. He's not going to suffer in any meaningful sense by not being able to kiss his step-grandchild in this way instead of in that way. It might be nice for them all to share a bed, or go on holiday together, but it won't be the end of the world if they don't. I'm sure lots of grandparents do have their little DGCs come in to snuggle them in the morning, but I'm equally sure that lots don't, and still manage to have a proper relationship.

Anniegetyourgun Tue 20-Nov-12 13:10:18

And THERhubarb, cross-posted but totally agree with you there.

I hear/see this phrase "step-grand children" here on MN alot.

how in any way is this man the childs "step-grand father"?? FFS he's her grandmothers boyfriend!

He has no "GP" relationship with the child at all beyond that he lives with her GM and is spending alot of time developing what looks very much NOT like a GP relationship with her. Neither is he an appropriate age to be a "step GF".

THERhubarb Tue 20-Nov-12 13:18:10

Information about Sarah's Law here which allows you to check the details of anyone who has access to your child, with the police in most UK counties.

It will only reveal if he has had previous convictions however.

For now, I would trust your instinct and have that talk. Most sensible people would fully understand. If they over-react then I would simply state that it's either your way or not at all. My stepdad over-reacted and that for me, was a sign of guilt because despite his and my mother's protestations, not everyone touched their step grandchildren in that way, it was not normal and it is not "just the way he is". In his case, it was positively creepy and made her and her friend feel very very uncomfortable.

quietlysuggests Tue 20-Nov-12 13:21:56

I wonder if the child lived with gran before she started the relationship with "DP"
Was the child the sweetner in the deal???

SamSmalaidh Tue 20-Nov-12 13:28:21

I think you do have to trust your instincts over this, and maybe not leave your DD there unsupervised if you feel uncomfortable.

However, I kiss my DS on the lips - he kisses his grandparents and aunt on the lips too. He's slept in his grandparents' bed. If your DD has lived with the grandmother and boyfriend, he's known her since she was a baby, that is quite a close relationship - maybe the boyfriend does feel they are related, even if not by blood?

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 13:28:30

We don't know how long they have been together though quietly (or if the OP mentioned it I can't find it blush), they could have been together 1 year or 10 years iyswim, long before the GD came along.

quietlysuggests Tue 20-Nov-12 13:32:23

no, we dont know. But a 32 year old going for a 55 year old? Well I am asking if the 5 year old did not entice him. As he may have been able to tell that the child's mother and grandmother both have fucked up boundaries - which they have!!

THERhubarb Tue 20-Nov-12 13:38:06

It doesn't really matter if he is related to the child or not. If the OP feels uncomfortable about their relationship then she needs to say so. Yes she might well be wrong and may be allowing her own predjudices about his age get in the way, but then again she might not be. She could feel really uncomfortable about him generally and just not be able to put her finger on why.

All we can do is to advise that she goes with her instinct and takes the necessary steps to ensure that her child is safe.

And fwiw, those people who insisted on kissing me on the lips when I was a young girl were the people who I felt the least comfortable with. The older you get the creeper it becomes. In my case they were usually middle aged male relatives and I was a young adolescent girl.

Now I would say, if in doubt speak out.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 13:45:03

But the age gap doesn't automatically mean he is a paedophile confused, we need to be careful not to jump to assumptions here, we don't know if the granddaughter was already living there or if that's the only reason the partner was interested in the grandmother. What we do know is the OP feels uncomfortable with he closeness of their ralationship which is the most important thing.

2rebecca Tue 20-Nov-12 13:58:20

If you don't like the situation then don't let your child stay with your mum without you and don't let him go away with her.
You are the parent here, take responsibility and sort out your own accomodation for you and your daughter and go on holiday with your own daughter and reclaim the mothering role from your mother.
I don't like the 3 in a bed scenario so wouldn't have my daughter staying overnight unless she had her own bed.
Maybe time to put a bit of distance between you and your mum and be more independant.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 16:52:19

Agree with 2rebecca.

Pagwatch Tue 20-Nov-12 17:05:01

Of course the age gap does not mean he is a paedophile.

But the op has raised several reasons why she has concerns. She is measured and sensible.she isn't shrieking about some odd bloke at a park - this is a man who has a developing level of intimacy with her DD and has unrestricted access to her. Her attempts to moderate this a little, by asking her mother to stop letting them all sleep in the same bed, was ignored.

I agree with pretty much everything rhubarb has posted.

And can I add that the comment about it being 'safer' for the child to be in with the gran and her boyfriend rather than in her own bed was wrong. It isn't.

And can I add that the comment about it being 'safer' for the child to be in with the gran and her boyfriend rather than in her own bed was wrong. It isn't.
I stand corrected - I was just thinking along the lines of her being more vulnerable in another room on her own & subject to the possibility of an unwanted night time visitor without the GM in the room. Obviously that assumes that having the GM in the bed would offer some protection.

Gosh I really don't know. Clearly the best option is for her not to be there at all.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 17:22:05

I agree with you pagwatch that she is being measured and sensible, but as i said in my post, the focus shouldn't be on the age gap, or people jumping to assumptions (like why he is with the grandmother), but should stick to the important facts like how the OP is very uncomfortable with this situation.

I think it's very important that she feels this is inappropriate and she should act on it to protect her daughter, but surely you agree that jumping to conclusions and making things up that we have no idea about won't help?

Saying to her mother "I feel uncomfortable with the level of intimacy your DP shows my daughter." Will be much more effective than "I think your DP is only with you because he wants to abuse my dd, why else would he be with an older woman?"

Pagwatch Tue 20-Nov-12 18:10:09

Sorry, I know why you said it. I think a lot of people would probably say similar.

It would seem logical but to be honest (assuming there is a safety issue which of course there may not be in this case) I think a child in their own bed is in their own space and any attempts to be in that room for a period of time is suspicious/problematic for anyone with ill intent.
Being in the same bed allows incredible intimacy. It is potentially a terrible normalising of inappropriate boundaries with the other adult confirming that this is acceptable iyswim.

Pagwatch Tue 20-Nov-12 18:12:23

I didn't notice a huge focus on his age tbh. I would have to re-read it but I accept i was probably responding to your response to others comments.

Xales Tue 20-Nov-12 18:42:01

I am going to come from a slightly different angle here.

He is a lot younger than your mum and probably not a grand parent in his own right yet. Therefore what he is learning about how to interact with your DD is coming from her interactions with her grandmother.

So he sees grandmother kissing DD on lips, that is where DD goes to kiss him, he accepts it thinking it is normal. To be honest lip kisses from kids are generally, slobbery, snotty disgusting things.

You said you were unhappy about this so he has stopped doing it and now kisses her cheek. Full marks to him for backing off and accepting what you say without getting offended.

As for the sharing a bed. OK you think it is wrong. You have told your mother. She is the one who has not respected your boundary and enforced this. Not him.

I think you need to speak to him not your mother and politely explain that you are teaching her the bad touching/unacceptable things to do and that you feel them sharing a bed borders on this as he is not a blood relative and would he please respect you, work with you on this and not share a bed with her.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 19:18:07

Thank you to everyone for the replies/opinions, i will read through and reply to questions etc.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 19:25:41

fancydrawers I felt very uncomfortable once they came back from the weekend away as I noticed a few things that made me uncomfortable.

anniegetyougun no she doesnt have to go away with them or sleepover, so I have decided to stop sleepovers.

actually I spoke with my mum about it today, she was not happy about what I was saying and I said that as she previously told me they would not be sleeping in the same bed, I let her stay over and they did sleep in the same bed. She said I am being way over the top and it will make her partner uncomfortable to tell him not to play with her how he currently does. (which last weekend included him picking her up, upside down and pretending to bite her on the bum). I said I dont care if he feels uncomfortable as it is not apprioate for him to bite/smack her on the bum when playing.

my mum said dd is the one that keeps wanting to play with him etc. I explained that she is only 5.

mhmummy Tue 20-Nov-12 19:28:44

Having worked for a number of years in child protection, this situation sets off alarm bells with me. Ignore those people who are calling you paranoid and don't take any chances. From now on, I wouldn't allow your DD to spend any time at your mother's house without you. That may seem like an over-reaction I think you have just cause to be concerned. Agree with those who have recommended resources which teach children about safe behaviour and boundaries.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 19:46:43

cogito the reason I said possibly the partner is because his first language is not english, and I know if i speak to him my mum will be annoyed with me, as she feels like i'm saying he is a pedo.

izzy my mums partner now only kisses dd on the cheek not my mum. also my dd does not act that way with other family members the way she does with him.Thats why I dont feel like it is a grandparent relationship. she makes my dad kiss her on her head. so not the lips or even the cheek. my brother kisses dd on the cheek, never the lips. and dd wont even kiss my brother inlaw atall.

olgaga thank you for the link. i will have a look. dd and I kiss on the lips and I'm fine with that. also I'm happy for her to kiss my mum and sister on the lips. but I would never kiss anyones children on the lips apart from my own or my sisters children.

duletty my dd also gets into my bed, and sleeps in her dads bed when at his house. I would even feel fine with her sleeping in bed with my brother. but not my mums partner.

attilia exactly what you said is what I am thinking.

imogen dd will not go to sleep alone if she is not at home, so she wont sleep in another bed. but as my mum said he would sleep on the sofa before when i raised the subject, I thought that is what would happen.

aitch I would not have a problem with a parent kissing their own child on the lips. as i said its also fine for my sister or mum to kiss dd.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 20-Nov-12 19:54:06

don't worry, movingforward, i know you didn't say that. you're not responsible for everything that turned up on the thread. main thing is wrt this guy and your mum that your spider senses are tingling and you're not ignoring it. good luck.

AnAirOfHopeForSnow Tue 20-Nov-12 20:01:00

How long have they been together?

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:23:25

strumpet they have been together for about 7/8years. and dd is 5. well i dont think he thinks as himself as her grandparent as he says things like "we are friends" so no i dont think he does.

he always buys her presents, like last xmas bought her a bike. and always brings her sweets if she is at my mums.

imnotmymum I thought that maybe because he is not british, maybe he is different with children, BUT he has had his neice and nephew over here and he was looking after them and wasn't affecionate towards them and hardy spoke to them. I said this to my mum and she said "well dd has basically grown up in this house and he loves her like his own" hmm


I understand that this does sound a bit uncomfortable but unfortunately you won't really know if it is something inappropriate or not unless your DD said.

its not upto my dd if she kisses grown men or not. I feel it is inappropriate, she doesnt know whats best for her...

quietlysuggests this is not a wind up. and I do not hand my dd over to him for weekends away. My mum who is dd's grandmother, who helps out alot with childcare because I am a single mum takes her away sometimes. the trip I am talking about, my mum, dd and partner all went to stay at my aunts house for the weekend who has a dd aged 10.

aitch I actually feel that this is very valid:

perhaps the really tough question it, if you weren't a single parent would you be letting him have this level of access to your child?

and I think the answer to this is no. as my mum wouldnt be helping out as much with childcare. and I wouldnt have had to live with them and dd.

hiphop actually my mum has put men before her children in a lot of cases. so I dont feel she is being manipulated, but yes her judgement may be warped.

therhubarb thank you for the reply. and yes i think it is mostly a feeling, as some of the things i have a problem with, wouldnt be a problem if it was say my dad, brother or my brother inlaw (my sisters husband) as I grew up with all three of them and trust them. but also all three of them have boundaries with my dd which I can clearly see. that they inforce and I feel comfortable with.

hiphop I agree, he is not her step gp, as he is not my step father, he is only 5 years older then me. and a year younger then my sister.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:29:51

therhubarb this is an example of something that I didnt like. they came back from their break away in the summer. he was drinking and did this thing called wet willy to her. not sure if you all know what that is, lots of people do it, but i find it strange, he liked his finger and put it in her ear and said wet willy. I said to him donot do that. He carried on. I said very very firmly DONT DO THAT. he became abit confrountational about it.

at the time he was drinking, he is normally very quite and never confrountational, but can be more outspoken when drinking. like i said his first language is not english, i told my mum what happend, she spoke to him and said he didnt fully understand what willy meant. and didnt mean anything by that. I said even him licking his finger and putting salivia in my dd's ear is NOT APPRIOATE.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:39:40

quietlysuggests my mum was with her partner for about 2-3 years before dd was born so no, thats not the case. and I dont feel that I have fucked up boundaries, I let my mum and sister look after my dd and no one else. when i leave my dd with my mum, i expect her to take care of her. do you not leave your dc with their grandmother????

2rebecca dd and I live alone and have done for 2years. we lived at my mums when dd was a baby.

xales I would have a conversation with him like this but my mum obviously seems very bothered about me talking to him and upsetting him that she has said that maybe dd shouldnt stay if i feel like this. which i do, so I have now chosen not to let her stay when he is there.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:43:01

mhmummy thank you for the response, I will take your advice and wont let her stay over etc.

anairofhope they have been togther for about 7-8years

thank you to everyone for the advice and for not making me feel terrible. it is not a nice situation and I am grateful for so many responses.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:46:56

i think the thing is, most men i know make boundaries with children, espically girls. when I was younger and in relationship with dd's dad, he was around 20 and i had young neices, one was about 4 and very friendly jumping all over men and women and affecionate and liked kissing anyone basically.

she used to jump on my exp and try to kiss him etc, he was friendly and playful towards her BUT he would feel uncomfortable with her getting too close and if she was for example jumping all over his privates he would put her down kindly and keep a distance.

and i know for sure my sisters husband would do the same type of thing.

MrsMelons Tue 20-Nov-12 20:50:39

Movingforward Sorry that is not what I meant - what I was saying is you don't know if his intentions are worse than what you see or what is happening now unless your DD said something was wrong and at 5 you are right she doesn't necessarily know. I absolutely understand it is inappropriate and not her decision to make.

Sorry if it sounded blase - I absolutely did not mean it too which you will know if you read the other part of my post regarding the person close to me.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 20-Nov-12 20:53:47

Playing devils advocate her but even though you don't think of him as a step grandparent do you think that because he has been there since she was born and seen her grow up that he maybe thinks of himself that way? not saying it is right or wrong but he might think of her as his family even if you don't?

not saying you should let her stay or be in situations you don't feel comfortable with but it might explain some of the more intimate/family like ways he acts towards her.

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 20:58:12

mrs melons I think I just took that bit wrong as I had a lot to read. smile

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 21:01:33

housework I do think he feels close to dd and maybe sees her as family. BUT when they returned from there trip as well as doing the wet willy thing, he also said your my girlfriend. And I sai I frount of dd no she is not your girlfriend, she is too young to be anyone's girlfriend and nan is your girlfriend! And dd then told him no I'm not your girlfriend! When I ask dd questions like why do you kiss him, she says he is my friend! So I don't feel like anyone feels he is her grandparent. But yes he possibly could feel like an uncle or something confused

Anniegetyourgun Tue 20-Nov-12 21:05:33

I think you're doing the best you can, Movingforward. It doesn't sound like he respects your wishes - dating your mum doesn't give him the right to overrule your parenting. It doesn't matter whether he loves DD like his own, she isn't his own, she's yours. And the ear thing is just gross. So even if the whole thing is innocent, I still think you've done right to distance yourself and DD.

quietlysuggests Tue 20-Nov-12 21:44:28

Well I am going to bow out. I am shocked at the blase attitude of posters here. Really.
You say yourself that your mum "actually my mum has put men before her children in a lot of cases" and when you have talked to her about what you want - the wet willy, you're my girlfriend etc what does she do - attack you nd accuse you? So you KNOW she is not capable of putting you daughter's safety, modesty, privacy, before her partner.
I would never let my dd be in the same room as him again. honestly and seriously.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 20-Nov-12 21:59:21

i agree that he shouldn't do the ear thing or say she is his girlfriend. I think from this thread alone the kissing issue and bed sharing is different for different families so that is up to you to decide (not your mum) he sounds like he does have a few different ideas to you with regards to boundaries and because it is your child you are the one who makes the rules. but none of us have ever met this man and can not make any judgement as to what his intentions or feelings are. i would not feel comfortable saying his actions are "alarm bells" because that would be jumping to conclusions but on the same hand i would not say "your over reacting he is doing nothing wrong"

You need to do what you think is right for your daughter and for yourself even if this offends your mum or him because you are her parent.

2rebecca Tue 20-Nov-12 22:06:30

I still think it's time to start seeing alot less of your mum and partner and find other childminders and stick close to your daughter when visiting your mum.
I've never heard of the wet willy thing but if any adult man had done that to my daughter when young he would have been told that talking about putting wet willies in a childs ear was sick. Now my daughter is old enough to run a mile from any older man doing such a pervy thing after having given him an earful of abuse.
"wet willy!" Seriously??
Get a busy social life which means you are too busy to see your mum much.

Damash12 Tue 20-Nov-12 22:13:57

If you feel uncomfortable then that us for a reason, your gut instinct is telling you something. Stop any contact unless you are around. If anything untoward ever happened you'd never get over it. Also have some stranger/danger chats with your daughter so she knows it's safe to tell you anything and everything. Good luck x

Proudnscary Tue 20-Nov-12 22:16:07

Jesus, posters who accuse others of being hysterical stagger me in these situations. Do these posters actually realise that children do get abused by people they know? It happens. It has happened to many, many Mumsnetters.

And as for kissing on lips or not kissing on lips...irrelevant!

OP your instinct is telling you something loud and clear. And on top of that this guy is doing and saying things that is crossing boundaries - your boundaries, your boundaries on your daughter's behalf.

Listen to that instinct and don't leave her alone with him.

She is your child, your precious child. Your mother does not listen to you or respect your wishes so be brave and stick to your guns.

Houseworkprocrastinator Tue 20-Nov-12 22:21:25

"Jesus, posters who accuse others of being hysterical stagger me in these situations"

i don't think anybody has said that at all. near enough every post has said that she should do what she is comfortable with.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 22:23:48

I know 'wet willy' very well, it's something you do to kids or friends for a bit of a laugh, I thought it was well known. Doing it repeatedly despite you asking him not to is a bit strange though.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 22:26:07

I had a quick scroll through but couldn't see any posts accusing others of being hysterical?

mcmooncup Tue 20-Nov-12 22:32:06

Wet willy?


Seriously, that is fucked up.

I feel a bit hysterical in fact wink

2rebecca Tue 20-Nov-12 22:34:40

Husband just got home and has never heard of "wet willy" either. He's Scottish, presume it's a regional thing although I've lived in several areas in England as well as Scotland. Googling it it sounds like an unpleasant prank primary school age boys do to each other, not something a grandparent type figure would repeatedly do to a 5 year old girl.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 22:36:02

I'm in Glasgow and it's really common and well known here.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Tue 20-Nov-12 22:39:06

kids do it on American films, i never really got the impression it had much to do with actual willies iykwim? but this guy nevertheless sounds inappropriate.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 22:40:47

Wet Willy? Bleeurgh. I've never heard of it. How repulsive! An adult doing that to an adult and thinking it was funny would be bad enough, but to a 5 year old child? Despicable, and really just not funny in any way shape or form.

Please keep your child away from him. And if your mum insists on making excuses for him, keep your child away from her too.

Sorry if this offends, but they both sound absolutely disgusting.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 20-Nov-12 22:42:01

Me neither, I never actually put 2 and 2 together until I was older, there are a few things with 'willy' in it I'd play when I was young like sticky willies that are plants that stick to everything and have nothing to do with actual willies.

CindySherman Tue 20-Nov-12 22:43:47

OP trust your instincts!

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 22:47:45

well i have heard of the wet willy thing, and actually my brither also did it to dd after about a month after my mums partner did it, after me making a big deal about it. I still felt it was disgusting that my brother did it and told him not to. BUT it didnt make me feel bad like it did when my mums partner did it.

I am not comfortable with it, have decided not to let dd stay there. also my mum collects dd once a week from school when i work as I have been unable to get childcare for that day, but i am going to really try to change that day of work so that my mums doesnt have to collect her.

and even if my mum is upset with me i dont care, because this has been building up for me for a while and i've now decided.

now i could really do with some advice on speaking to my dd about it. she is quite bright and grown up for a 5year old. I am going to look at the books recommended so thanks for those.

but any tips about what to say?

also my dd feels very close to my mums partner, so I know it will be difficult to explain that her behaviour needs to be differnt if around him.

because although I am going to stop sleepovers and try to arrange differnt childcare, we will still be visiting my mum and he may be there.

CindySherman Tue 20-Nov-12 22:50:38

Just read the "wet willy" post.

Don't ever, ever let her near him again. shock

ImperialBlether Tue 20-Nov-12 22:51:10

I wouldn't let my daughter near this man and to be honest I don't like the sound of your mum, either.

Is she so flattered by the attentions of this much younger man that she feels she has to avoid confrontation even when it's to do with completely inappropriate behaviour with a five year old?

I would stick to hour long visits with no babysitting, no taking on holiday and if he kissed or touched her once more in that kind of way I'd be calling the police.

imogengladhart Tue 20-Nov-12 23:22:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ImperialBlether Tue 20-Nov-12 23:34:52

OP, when you said that he says he's her friend, my first thought, tbh, was that friends have secrets. I'd be having that conversation with her pretty quickly.

olgaga Tue 20-Nov-12 23:43:01

This can help anyone who needs to talk to children about protecting themselves:

It's from the website Parents Protect - link in my post above.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Tue 20-Nov-12 23:44:51

The one thing missing from Olgagas link is to teach your children its not ok for someone to ask them to touch their private areas either.

BobblyGussets Tue 20-Nov-12 23:58:21

What QuietlySuggests said.

OP you sound so passive in all of this. You really do need to speak up and step up to the mark. I am sure it is hard, parenting on your own, but you really don't need to expose your daughter to what may or may not be happening. I don't like the sound of it; you don't like the sound of it. Do something about it for goodness sake. Or would that be too hard? hmm

Movingforward123 Tue 20-Nov-12 23:58:43

imperial i have always told my dd that she should never keep secrets from me. even if she is in trouble at school, i always say tell me the truth, if you tell the truth you wont be in trouble. so that she can always feel like she can talk to me.

sometimes my mum will say things like "dont tell mummy you had that chocolate" and i always say infrount of dd "me and dd do not keep secrets" and always tell my mum that secrets are not acceptable as dd needs to tell me everything.

when i was growing up, my dad was very paranoid about sexual abuse. we were never allowed to stay at friends house etc, and we were told from a very young age about if people touch us etc we must tell him. so i am always aware of this and have always tried to make it that she wont keep secrets because if this.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 00:04:12

If the truth is told, it is almost impossible to keep your children safe from a predator, especially if that predator is someone they know and love.

Follow your instinct, better to follow it and be wrong than the alternative.

2rebecca Wed 21-Nov-12 09:18:16

I think that if your daughter won't go to bed alone at other people's houses then she isn't old enough to stay with other people. I don't think you can insist your mum doesn't sleep with her lover, but in that situation your daughter shouldn't be staying overnight, and I'd be telling her that you have to be a big girl and able to sleep in your own bed before staying with other people, although with this bloke's creepy behaviour I'd be reluctant to let her go alone even if she did stay in her own bed.

olgaga Wed 21-Nov-12 10:27:32

If you click on the link it gives you some "Smart Rules for Adults to Share with Children" - one of them is:

Respect your body and remember it is private.
No one has the right to touch you on your private
areas (those covered by your swim suit).

olgaga Wed 21-Nov-12 10:30:43

Sorry - that last post was for izzy.

OP, it sounds like you are doing all the right things but are strangely in awe of or rather too dependent on your mum for childcare.

I think you need to seriously think about stopping overnight stays altogether. What other occasions would require your DD to be there when your mum's boyfriend is also there?

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 10:34:35

olgaga yes what it doesn't say is DCs must touch someone else in their private areas - it deals with someone touching DCs - not getting DCs to touch them iyswim.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 10:34:56

*DCs must not touch

Fancydrawers Wed 21-Nov-12 10:41:34

I apologise for saying I think you're being a bit hysterical. I work in a field where I am well aware of child abusers unfortunately mainly being family members. I just hate the automatic assumption that a man who is perhaps a bit overfriendly (and perhaps completely innocent) is a paedophile and going to abuse your child. It makes me really angry and I do feel for men sometimes who may be just a tad socially inept.

The girlfriend/wet willy thing is odd though yes. But with regards to the sleeping in bed, that's your mum facilitating that - not him, yes? If you are feeling very uncomfortable and your instincts are telling you that something is amiss then of course keep her away from him. But it sounds like your mum is not someone to be placing your trust in either, if she will not respect your wishes.

THERhubarb Wed 21-Nov-12 10:49:19

MovingForward - well done. I'm sure that conversation with your mum was not an easy one to have. Much like when I had the convo with my mum about my stepdad. She made out that I was making a big deal out of nothing because I've never liked him, but the things I witnessed were wrong and my niece and her friend did say they felt uncomfortable about the way he touched them, the way he looked at them and the things he said to them.

I still think that my stepfather is a pervert. But I have no concrete evidence for this.

I was disowned by my mother that day and she told members of the family that I had called him a pervert, that I had broken the trust of my niece and that I was spreading vicious gossip about him. In truth I had told no-one but it caused a lot of trouble within the family and hardly anyone took my side. Plus when they saw how my mother was treating me, they took that as a warning to keep quiet themselves.

So I applaud you for sticking up for your dd and keeping her safe. It is very very difficult when you have no evidence, when all you have to go on is a feeling and some behaviour that is inappropriate but could be explained away by him being unfamiliar with the culture.

Don't accept excuses though. You have clearly defined boundaries with your daughter and he has overstepped those boundaries on more than one occasion.

Do try to get that Sydney the Snail Plays Safe book. It's great for reading with kids. In fact, as it seems to be unavailable, I'll PM you and if you send me your address I'll post you my copy as my kids are older now.

Oh and I'm from the North West, have lived in Scotland, Cumbria and now in the south and have never heard of "wet willy" either. Sounds like the kind of game that kids do to each other, not with grown-ups though. When an adult does that, it does seem creepy.

Don't let anyone make you feel that you are hysterical or taking things out of context or over-reacting. You are not. Your daughter is your priority and I'm sure if other people felt uncomfortable they would take the same course of action. Most people have had this feeling and know exactly what you mean, so you don't need to explain further.

I hope this doesn't lead to tensions with your mum but if it does, remember that your dd overrules your mother everytimes. I don't have any contact with mine anymore. She demonstrated on a number of occasions that we meant nothing to her. She doesn't love me or my kids and merely used me as a tool to create tension and ill-feeling in the family which she then thrived on. I hope that your relationship works out a little better x

olgaga Wed 21-Nov-12 10:53:35

Oh I get you izzy. I think that's a very good point. So good that in fact I just emailed them to point it out!

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 11:01:07

olgaga it's the bitter voice of experience - I have read ever single piece of advice out there - I followed it all to the letter and there has been nothing suggested I didn't do - but my children were still not safe.

My personal opinion these days is it is all couched in too woolly language and not specific enough.

I won't make that mistake again.

THERhubarb Wed 21-Nov-12 11:07:37

You need to point out to children that NOBODY has the right to make them do ANYTHING that feels uncomfortable.

The Sydney Snail book goes on about trusting their own feelings and if they feel uncomfortable for ANY reason, they should tell a trusted adult. They do not have to explain why.

I think that's an important point to raise with kids. Sometimes you just feel uncomfortable around a person or you may be in a situation that doesn't feel right. You don't need to have a reason for this. You should trust what your instincts are telling you and you should immediately seek out a trusted adult.

I've told dd that it doesn't matter what time of the day or night it is or where she is, we would always come to get her. She should never stay in a situation out of politeness. We won't expect her to explain why she feels uncomfortable and we would never be cross with her.

Sometimes we enforce this rule of politeness onto children and we can be too rigid about getting them to explain themselves and their actions. Feelings simply aren't spoken about and it's important that children learn to listen to those feelings.

THERhubarb Wed 21-Nov-12 11:12:50

izzy, I'm sure you did everything you could, as we all do, to keep our children safe but adults are cunning, they are clever and they are very very good at hiding their true intentions and covering their tracks.

I did criminology at Uni and I remember distinctly an interview with a paedophile in which he was asked about a girl he had murdered. The question was what could have been done to prevent him from targeting her. He answered that nothing would have prevented him from getting the girl, then he paused and said that perhaps if the mother had never let the child out of her sight, but then he added that he would have probably just killed the mother too.

The full details are horrible but I wanted to illustrate just how these people work sometimes. You can be the best parent in the world but if evil is determined enough, it will find a way through.

I hope you and your family are safe now xxx

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 11:18:50

My children are as safe as they can be - my SD is living with a self confessed paedophile and there is nothing we can do about it.

THERhubarb Wed 21-Nov-12 11:27:23

I'm so sorry. You can only hope that he gets reported and locked up can't you? I don't understand why they are allowed back into society. You cannot 'cure' a paedophile, the tendencies will always be there and so they will always present a danger to children. What is the answer? sad

MonthlyName Wed 21-Nov-12 11:28:25

Not read all the replies, I couldn't get past the wierd placement of exclamation marks in the op.
I think if he has been acting as grandad sine she was born and lived with you, then she thinks of him as grandad, and its your problem with the age gap.
As regards to the mouth kissing thing, if he's not yet had other grandchildren and seeing others do it he thinks that is normal behaviour. You said he was uncomfortable, he now kisses her on the cheek.

FWIW 1 of my grandparents isn't biological, but they were around from birth so were considered my DGP. Also my god daughter, who is nearer 4 than 3 still kisses me and my dh on the lips, because we are close to her and that's how her parents are happy for her to do when they are with us and how they have brought her up.

MonthlyName Wed 21-Nov-12 11:29:51

Oops, just read some replies above, if the ops step dad has now turned out to be a paedophile then ignore my previous post!

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 11:40:46

therhubarb perhaps the start would be not allowing people who are on bail for rape and sex with a child to live with under 18s - particularly potential witnesses.

THERhubarb Wed 21-Nov-12 11:59:09

Well that would be a basic rule yes and I cannot believe that has happened.
There is a report out today that basically says that young girls (and boys) are being raped and sexually abused by gangs and how this is dealt with differs from area to area.

Our children are being failed by bodies of so-called professional people who are failing to apply even basic common sense to situations.

And we are powerless to act and prevent further abuse. It all sucks angry

quietlysuggests Wed 21-Nov-12 12:18:44

People you do know that you can spend years telling a child that they must not let anyone touch them, that they can always tell you everything, that you dont keep secrets etc etc

Then some bastard comes along and says, even once - this was your fault and if your mum ever finds out she wont love you any more/ send you away/I'll kill her etc etc

And thats really all a monster has to do - threaten them


ProcrastinatingPanda Wed 21-Nov-12 12:22:55

Izzy every time I see your name I automatically picture someone shaving a baby.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 12:24:28

quietly yes - sadly I agree.

therhubarb yes it happens - SS have no power of removal unless here is a conviction despite trying to give a different impression. They can only suggest.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 12:25:16

Lol procrastinating

imogengladhart Wed 21-Nov-12 13:21:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

izzyishavingababyAGAIN Wed 21-Nov-12 13:42:11

Again sadly I concur. My conclusion is nothing could have kept my DCs safe from the monster in the house. I did everything as advised.

DH and I are vigalant good people and parents - and still this happened under our noses - and we didn't have a clue.

I was one of the most cautious people and it terrifies me as I now know - nothing I did kept the DCs safe and I don't know how to ensure their safety in the future.

perceptionreality Wed 21-Nov-12 13:49:26

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm sorry to be blunt but why are you letting your dd go on holiday with someone who you feel may be abusing her??

Why is she sleeping in the same bed as him? You sound quite detached from the situation and you need to take control and get her away from him if you have any inkling that his behaviour towards her is inappropriate.

THERhubarb Wed 21-Nov-12 13:56:45

izzy, again there is only so much we can do. These are children which is why they are targeted by adults who can intimidate, who are clever, who cover their tracks well.

Nobody believed me when I said that my stepdad was cruel to me. My mother fostered children (still does), they both went to church, he would help anyone who needed it, he loved little kids and more importantly, he made my mum happy and I was seen as a kid who was jealous of him, who was out to cause trouble, who lied, who was denying her mum happiness, etc. No-one heard the comments he made to me, no-one saw the looks he gave me. Even now, my dh will often say "but he's always been nice to me." There's this attitude that if someone is nice to them, that's all the evidence they need to decide that he is innocent and I am paranoid/a drama queen.

That's why I put quite a lot of emphasis on those instincts of ours. On first impressions. Yet nothing will guarantee your childrens safety. Nothing. What we do need is to bang on and on and on about it and demand that social services, the police, the government take action and start listening to our children because as we know, even when children DO speak out, they are not always believed.

imogengladhart Wed 21-Nov-12 14:09:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Xales Wed 21-Nov-12 17:11:41

Also as some have pointed out your mother is involved.

My mother used to let my step father pin me to the wall aged 5 as it was easier for her than dealing with his temper.

Your mother is already dismissing your opinion you cannot trust or rely on her at all.

Xales Wed 21-Nov-12 17:12:47

He pinned me to the wall by my throat. Meant to make that a little clearer.

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